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I'm Craig Melvin,

2
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and this is "Dateline:
Secrets Uncovered."

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I just see Sante Kimes
as the ultimate femme fatale.

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Seducing lovers,
lawyers, husbands, her son.

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This is someone
who gets what she wants.

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This story about a mother
and son grifter team.

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This was a diabolical duo.

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They seem quite, like, open,
and friendly, and interesting.

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Yeah, I didn't think
they were killers.

10
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We have a woman,
a socialite goes missing.

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There were several people
who disappeared.

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She had put a hit
out on me.

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She wanted me killed.

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Why did she keep
getting away with it?

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She just had that
power over me.

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I was mom's first protege.

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I was supposed to be
her co-hort in crime.

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Your mother instructed you
to kill people.

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{\an8}Sinister. Scheming.

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I felt like I was in
the presence of Satan.

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Hello and welcome to
"Dateline: Secrets Uncovered."

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Irene Silverman lived
a life of privilege

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worthy of New York's
Gilded Age.

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Then one morning,
the prominent socialite

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vanished from
her Manhattan townhouse.

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What followed was
a sprawling investigation

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into a pair of outlaws
known as Mommy and Clyde,

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killers whose darkest secrets
pointed to more than one victim.

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Here's Keith Morrison with
"The Devil Wore White."

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It was evening when
they found her.

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Found her prone
in her cell

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at the Bedford Hills
Correctional Facility

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in New York.

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A guard raised the alarm
and they rushed her

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to a nearby hospital.

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But it was too late.

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Her enlarged heart
was so badly damaged,

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it could not
go on beating.

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She was 79
when she died.

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Sixteen years past
the outrages,

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the mayhem,
the murders,

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and the fabulous, fierce,
frightening madness

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that was the woman
named Sante Kimes.

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Are you more
comfortable now?

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Yes, because she's dead.

46
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And that was--
that was the deciding factor.

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- Yes.
- She had to be dead.

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She had to be dead.

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[yelling]

50
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There are many
kinds of villains.

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This is the story
of a mother and two sons,

52
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and all kinds of trouble.

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Is it fair for me to say
that though you knew

54
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your mother was
a terrible person,

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you loved her as intensely
as a son can love a mother.

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There's probably
not another son on

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who loved his mother
as much as I loved mine.

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But as we say, this is about
a mother and two sons.

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The other,
now speaking out,

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his first recorded
interview in decades.

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When your mother died,

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was that very difficult
for you?

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It hurt like hell.

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There's just nothing I can do
without her but pray.

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So much history.

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Darkly comic,
to just plain dark.

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{\an8}But we can begin,

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{\an8}because why not
begin here,

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{\an8}in a celebration.

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{\an8}[fireworks crackling
and whistling]

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July 4, 1998.

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Millions gathered
in New York City

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to watch the nation's
biggest fireworks spectacular.

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And just off Manhattan's
Millionaires Row,

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a smaller crowd gathered for
a different kind of spectacular.

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A dinner party at a mansion
on East 65th Street.

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The hostess was
an 82 year old widow

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named Irene Silverman.

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She's vivacious,
she's a lot of fun.

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Fashion designer Zang Toi
was a close friend

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and frequent party guest.

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She know how to throw
a great party

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during her heyday,
and she had the heart of gold.

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Friend Janice Herbert
also loved Irene's company.

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She's delightful,
she's funny.

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I adored her.

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Someone described her
as Auntie Mame,

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and that's exactly
what she was.

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She was
absolutely fabulous.

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Irene Silverman had quite
literally danced her way

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from poverty to a dream job
as a ballet dancer

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at Radio City Music Hall.

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And by the time
of our story,

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she was a healthy,
wealthy widow

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with a fine big townhouse

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in New York's
most expensive neighborhood.

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It was for companionship
as much as anything

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that Irene rented rooms
in her mansion.

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Her tenants included
some A list celebrities

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like Daniel Day Lewis,
and Lenny Kravitz,

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and Chaka Khan.

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She lived by herself.

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She rented
just for fun,

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and to also keep
herself company.

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The day after Irene's bash,
July 5th was as quiet

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as a country church
on a Monday morning

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at the NYPD's 19th Precinct
where Detective Tom Hovagim

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was working his shift.

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Tell me about July 5th.

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You were on duty, what was it--
what was that like?

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Yeah, um, the city was empty
fourth of July weekend,

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so we expected a slow day.

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Then we received a call
from a patrol officer.

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I picked up the phone.

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We have a woman,
elderly woman,

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that is missing.

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Her staff reported
her missing.

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The missing elderly woman
was Irene Silverman.

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I was
the junior detective.

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I just had gotten
promoted in January.

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Okay.

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So the other two guys
were pretty senior to me.

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And they said,
"Well, kid, this is yours."

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Because no one really wants
a missing person case.

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- Oh, boy.
- It's very tedious work.

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With that in mind,
Detective Hovagim

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drove to the Upper East Side
to the six story townhouse,

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a stone's throw
from Central Park.

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This townhouse, what--
what was that like?

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It was actually beautiful.

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Beautiful artwork,
beautiful furniture.

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The night before
she disappeared,

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she had a great party.

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American flags, hats,
you know, the whole bit.

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So yeah, she liked
to entertain.

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She was very social.

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Did she have a-a staff to do
all these things for her?

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She did.

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Keeping the townhouse clean,
um, making her food,

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uh, helping
set up the party.

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She loved her staff.

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She treated
them very well.

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She was living
the grand life, that woman.

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Absolutely, 100%.

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The staff last saw Irene
inside her house that morning,

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shortly before noon.

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She appeared to have left
without telling anyone.

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Not what she would
ever do, ever.

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Which is why they
reported her missing.

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We did the preliminary
investigation,

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searched the townhouse,
searched the surrounding areas,

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looked for video cameras,
interviewed neighbors.

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But no sign of Irene.

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And curiously,
two other people

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seemed to have
vanished, too.

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We couldn't find one
of the staff members.

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When we went up
to his apartment,

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he wasn't there.

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So that was
a little suspicious.

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The other missing person
was a young man

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who was renting a room
on the first floor.

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We couldn't find
the person in 1B.

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He disappeared
the same time she did.

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You know, that raised
our suspicion, of course.

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- Okay.
- Yes.

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Though not alarmingly, yet.

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But then outside,
near the front entrance,

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they found blood.

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And Tom Hovagim's
missing person case

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suddenly became urgent.

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When you get a person
on the Upper East Side

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like Irene Silverman,
it becomes very special.

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The whole city
takes an interest.

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Pretty soon, the whole country
would take an interest.

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Because the case of
the missing socialite

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was about to take
an unexpected turn

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into something diabolical.

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Ever had any other case,

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anything like this
in your career?

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Not even close.

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What would follow
and what came before

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is a story,
when all told,

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of crimes astonishing
in scale and scope.

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Next thing I know,
he's around my back

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with his arm
across my neck.

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Stretching from
New York to LA.

187
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A transient found
David Kazdin's body

188
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stuffed into a dumpster.

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Hawaii to the Caribbean,
and at the center of it all,

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a criminal mastermind
the likes of which

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we won't see again,
with any luck.

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When she looked at you,

193
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she could look
into your soul.

194
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She is the most evil woman
that I've ever met.

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How do you tell the story
and not be over the top?

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She was over the top.

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♪

198
00:09:05,278 --> 00:09:06,646
They looked everywhere

199
00:09:06,747 --> 00:09:09,249
that fourth of July weekend
in New York,

200
00:09:09,349 --> 00:09:11,385
sent the canines sniffing
through her mansion

201
00:09:11,485 --> 00:09:12,986
top to bottom.

202
00:09:13,086 --> 00:09:14,388
But try as they might,

203
00:09:14,488 --> 00:09:17,591
they could not find
Irene Silverman.

204
00:09:17,691 --> 00:09:20,661
The boss who was running
the investigation,

205
00:09:20,761 --> 00:09:23,430
um, dubbed us
the Silver Task Force.

206
00:09:23,530 --> 00:09:25,132
'Cause we all had
an affection for Irene

207
00:09:25,232 --> 00:09:26,867
because it could have been
our grandmother,

208
00:09:26,967 --> 00:09:28,035
could have been
our mother.

209
00:09:28,135 --> 00:09:29,703
You know, this woman
did nothing wrong.

210
00:09:29,803 --> 00:09:33,106
She had purpose
still in her life.

211
00:09:33,206 --> 00:09:36,243
She was a good person
to have in this world.

212
00:09:36,343 --> 00:09:39,246
Irene's friends,
like fashion designer Zang Toi,

213
00:09:39,346 --> 00:09:41,014
were worried sick.

214
00:09:41,114 --> 00:09:43,283
It was getting late.
Everybody was worried.

215
00:09:43,383 --> 00:09:45,686
My first thought is
that I was just praying,

216
00:09:45,786 --> 00:09:48,989
I was hoping that they would
find that she was kidnapped.

217
00:09:49,089 --> 00:09:51,258
Someone tried to ask
for ransom.

218
00:09:51,358 --> 00:09:53,593
But no ransom note appeared.

219
00:09:53,694 --> 00:09:56,730
If someone had taken her,
must have been a thief, too,

220
00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:59,933
because 10,000 in cash
she kept in the townhouse

221
00:10:00,033 --> 00:10:02,436
vanished with her.

222
00:10:02,536 --> 00:10:05,672
Suspicion landed first on
that missing staff member.

223
00:10:05,772 --> 00:10:08,475
Detective Hovagim learned
he was a longtime employee

224
00:10:08,575 --> 00:10:11,445
with access to
Irene's financial records.

225
00:10:11,545 --> 00:10:13,513
He'd boarded
a flight to Atlanta

226
00:10:13,613 --> 00:10:16,016
shortly after
she vanished.

227
00:10:16,116 --> 00:10:18,151
He had gone away,
but once we got him

228
00:10:18,251 --> 00:10:19,052
and brought him in,

229
00:10:19,152 --> 00:10:20,721
we eliminated
him pretty quickly.

230
00:10:20,821 --> 00:10:22,990
He was innocent,

231
00:10:23,090 --> 00:10:25,993
just like the rest
of Irene's staff.

232
00:10:26,093 --> 00:10:28,528
We went through the motions
of interviewing him

233
00:10:28,629 --> 00:10:29,663
and getting
their alibis.

234
00:10:29,763 --> 00:10:31,765
It wasn't anyone
on the staff.

235
00:10:31,865 --> 00:10:34,334
The detectives also talked
to Irene's tenants, of course,

236
00:10:34,434 --> 00:10:38,205
and all were quickly
accounted for and alibi.

237
00:10:38,305 --> 00:10:40,507
Except for that young guy
from the room

238
00:10:40,607 --> 00:10:42,009
on the first floor.

239
00:10:42,109 --> 00:10:44,277
The staff told us that
there was a person

240
00:10:44,378 --> 00:10:46,179
staying in apartment 1B

241
00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:48,181
who Irene thought
was very suspicious

242
00:10:48,281 --> 00:10:51,451
since she had rented
the apartment to him.

243
00:10:51,551 --> 00:10:53,954
His name was Manny Guerin.

244
00:10:54,054 --> 00:10:56,390
He'd arrived
two weeks earlier.

245
00:10:56,490 --> 00:11:00,360
He didn't have a reference
or an ID, but he seemed nice,

246
00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:04,364
and he gave her 6,000
in cash up front.

247
00:11:04,464 --> 00:11:06,400
She just let him in.

248
00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:09,202
She let her guard down.
She never did that.

249
00:11:09,303 --> 00:11:11,738
Her friend Janice said
Irene regretted that decision

250
00:11:11,838 --> 00:11:13,407
right away.

251
00:11:13,507 --> 00:11:15,208
He was very secretive.

252
00:11:15,308 --> 00:11:17,678
She felt that
something was wrong,

253
00:11:17,778 --> 00:11:19,913
and she was worried
about it.

254
00:11:20,013 --> 00:11:23,750
She was smart enough to write
everything down in detail

255
00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:26,253
about this guy's
suspicious behavior.

256
00:11:26,353 --> 00:11:27,688
What kind of behaviors?

257
00:11:27,788 --> 00:11:30,991
When there was a conversation
in the lobby of the townhouse,

258
00:11:31,091 --> 00:11:33,493
she would see his feet
underneath the door

259
00:11:33,593 --> 00:11:36,963
or the shadow of his feet,
like he was eavesdropping.

260
00:11:37,064 --> 00:11:40,067
And when he came into the house,
into the townhouse,

261
00:11:40,167 --> 00:11:43,036
he would avoid the cameras,
walk on the sides of the walls,

262
00:11:43,136 --> 00:11:45,772
things like that,
to stay out of camera view.

263
00:11:45,872 --> 00:11:47,541
And she described him,
you know, male, white,

264
00:11:47,641 --> 00:11:50,677
you know, 5' 9",
about 180 pounds.

265
00:11:50,777 --> 00:11:53,814
She was a sharp woman, man.

266
00:11:53,914 --> 00:11:57,584
And this Manny Guerin,
Irene's longtime caregiver,

267
00:11:57,684 --> 00:12:00,687
Marta Rivera, said he refused
to let housekeepers

268
00:12:00,787 --> 00:12:04,124
inside his room to clean,

269
00:12:04,224 --> 00:12:06,393
and she thought
she knew why.

270
00:12:06,493 --> 00:12:09,763
There was a woman in
the apartment with him.

271
00:12:09,863 --> 00:12:11,932
Nobody know who she was.

272
00:12:12,032 --> 00:12:13,567
Because that's
the reason that they--

273
00:12:13,667 --> 00:12:15,502
they not let
nobody go inside,

274
00:12:15,602 --> 00:12:17,571
so they don't see her.

275
00:12:17,671 --> 00:12:19,840
An unknown woman in there.

276
00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:21,842
That was it for Irene.

277
00:12:21,942 --> 00:12:25,245
She told friends she wanted
Manny Guerin to leave.

278
00:12:25,345 --> 00:12:27,681
She was going to
evict him, right--

279
00:12:27,781 --> 00:12:30,350
you know, right around
the time she disappeared.

280
00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:34,221
So police searched the room
Manny Guerin had been renting.

281
00:12:34,321 --> 00:12:35,355
We found all kinds
of things.

282
00:12:35,455 --> 00:12:38,692
Garbage bags,
roll of duct tape,

283
00:12:38,792 --> 00:12:43,697
um, shower curtain rings,
but no shower curtain,

284
00:12:43,797 --> 00:12:47,367
things like that,
which raised our suspicion.

285
00:12:47,467 --> 00:12:49,336
On Monday night, July 6,

286
00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:51,571
Hovagim's unit asked
the public for help

287
00:12:51,672 --> 00:12:53,307
to find Irene Silverman

288
00:12:53,407 --> 00:12:55,442
and her suspicious
missing tenant.

289
00:12:55,542 --> 00:12:58,245
We posted pictures
of Irene Silverman.

290
00:12:58,345 --> 00:13:01,048
We had a sketch done
of Manny Guerin.

291
00:13:01,148 --> 00:13:05,285
We had a news conference
where we posted the sketch.

292
00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:08,021
The next day,
Hovagim got a call.

293
00:13:08,121 --> 00:13:10,357
Someone had recognized
Manny Guerin

294
00:13:10,457 --> 00:13:11,925
from the police sketch.

295
00:13:12,025 --> 00:13:14,328
It wasn't a member
of the public,

296
00:13:14,428 --> 00:13:16,730
but another of
New York's finest,

297
00:13:16,830 --> 00:13:18,098
from a different department

298
00:13:18,198 --> 00:13:21,134
of the city's sprawling
police organization.

299
00:13:21,234 --> 00:13:24,338
No doubt in my mind
that was him.

300
00:13:24,438 --> 00:13:26,173
Ed Murray was a detective
working for

301
00:13:26,273 --> 00:13:29,142
the NYPD's
Fugitive Task Force.

302
00:13:29,242 --> 00:13:31,678
When he saw the sketch
of Manny Guerin,

303
00:13:31,778 --> 00:13:33,447
he said he knew
right away who it was.

304
00:13:33,547 --> 00:13:35,949
And it wasn't
Manny Guerin.

305
00:13:36,049 --> 00:13:40,053
I see that picture,

306
00:13:40,153 --> 00:13:44,024
and it's exactly
a composite sketch

307
00:13:44,124 --> 00:13:46,360
of Kenny Kimes.

308
00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:48,261
Kenny Kimes?

309
00:13:48,362 --> 00:13:50,297
Murray was certain
the man in the sketch

310
00:13:50,397 --> 00:13:53,200
was actually a car thief
named Kenny Kimes,

311
00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:55,869
who he'd taken into custody
just a few hours after

312
00:13:55,969 --> 00:13:58,305
Irene Silverman disappeared.

313
00:13:58,405 --> 00:14:01,341
Kimes had been arrested
with his mother, Sante,

314
00:14:01,441 --> 00:14:03,810
for writing a bad check
for a Lincoln Towncar

315
00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:05,679
back in Utah.

316
00:14:05,779 --> 00:14:08,181
An unusual pair,
those two.

317
00:14:08,281 --> 00:14:10,617
It was something that
I just didn't think,

318
00:14:10,717 --> 00:14:12,653
it was like
mother and son.

319
00:14:12,753 --> 00:14:13,987
Like she was the boss
and he was--

320
00:14:14,087 --> 00:14:16,256
Well, she was.
She-- definitely,

321
00:14:16,356 --> 00:14:17,858
without a doubt,
she was.

322
00:14:17,958 --> 00:14:20,360
So one department
talked to the other,

323
00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:21,862
and pretty soon,
Detective Hovagim

324
00:14:21,962 --> 00:14:24,865
was showing
Kenny Kimes's booking photo

325
00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:27,467
to Irene's employees.

326
00:14:27,567 --> 00:14:31,371
And then when we did
the photo array of Kenny,

327
00:14:31,471 --> 00:14:33,206
the staff picked him out,
saying, yeah,

328
00:14:33,307 --> 00:14:34,541
that's Manny Guerin.

329
00:14:34,641 --> 00:14:37,744
In that moment,
there was no way, of course,

330
00:14:37,844 --> 00:14:41,448
for Detective Hovagim to fathom
just who he was dealing with,

331
00:14:41,548 --> 00:14:45,052
where this Kenny Kimes
and his mother, Sante,

332
00:14:45,152 --> 00:14:49,489
had already been,
and what they had already done.

333
00:14:56,196 --> 00:15:01,301
♪

334
00:15:01,401 --> 00:15:04,404
Almost 48 hours after
Irene Silverman disappeared,

335
00:15:04,504 --> 00:15:07,074
NYPD detectives found
her missing tenant,

336
00:15:07,174 --> 00:15:10,077
Manny Guerin,
already in custody.

337
00:15:10,177 --> 00:15:13,447
But he'd been arrested
under a different name,

338
00:15:13,547 --> 00:15:17,551
his real one,
Kenny Kimes.

339
00:15:17,651 --> 00:15:20,988
He was locked up alongside
his mother, Sante.

340
00:15:21,088 --> 00:15:25,459
And she, they learned,
had a rap sheet miles long,

341
00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:29,696
reaching back decades
before her son Kenny was born.

342
00:15:29,796 --> 00:15:32,833
You know, we had
some background on his mother,

343
00:15:32,933 --> 00:15:35,035
on Sante at that point,
so I used that against him.

344
00:15:35,135 --> 00:15:36,937
Like, look, we know your mother
put you up to this.

345
00:15:37,037 --> 00:15:39,439
We know she-she's been
arrested before

346
00:15:39,539 --> 00:15:43,243
and that she's manipulative
and she's manipulating you.

347
00:15:43,343 --> 00:15:44,177
Didn't work.

348
00:15:44,277 --> 00:15:46,413
Kenny Kimes
gave away nothing.

349
00:15:46,513 --> 00:15:48,281
So who were these people?

350
00:15:48,382 --> 00:15:53,186
Mother and son, car thieves,
and maybe killers.

351
00:15:53,287 --> 00:15:58,292
And what might they have done
with innocent elderly Irene?

352
00:15:58,392 --> 00:15:59,593
In a New York minute,

353
00:15:59,693 --> 00:16:02,763
those questions became
a huge national story.

354
00:16:02,863 --> 00:16:04,564
{\an8}- Hope is fading tonight...
- ...that the suspect

355
00:16:04,665 --> 00:16:07,167
{\an8}in her disappearance--
- A missing person,

356
00:16:07,267 --> 00:16:09,603
who vanished from
her million dollar home.

357
00:16:09,703 --> 00:16:11,838
When they first
got arrested,

358
00:16:11,938 --> 00:16:15,108
it is no exaggeration
within the first 10 days,

359
00:16:15,208 --> 00:16:18,178
I had 100 news agencies
attack my office

360
00:16:18,278 --> 00:16:19,713
looking for me.

361
00:16:19,813 --> 00:16:21,848
You guys, NBC, ABC.
- Hmm? Oh.

362
00:16:21,948 --> 00:16:25,252
Kent Walker,
that firstborn son,

363
00:16:25,352 --> 00:16:27,754
Kenny's older brother,
the one we told you about

364
00:16:27,854 --> 00:16:29,356
back at the beginning.

365
00:16:29,456 --> 00:16:31,224
Kent had the answers.

366
00:16:31,325 --> 00:16:33,560
Some of them, anyway.

367
00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:35,295
That's my mother.

368
00:16:35,395 --> 00:16:36,697
She had a force.

369
00:16:36,797 --> 00:16:38,632
It was a force
we were acting with.

370
00:16:38,732 --> 00:16:39,099
Oh, yes.

371
00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:42,970
Kent's mother, Sante Kimes,
was a woman of many names,

372
00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:45,305
and many schemes.

373
00:16:45,405 --> 00:16:49,810
Every bawdy, gorgeous,
terrible bit of her.

374
00:16:49,910 --> 00:16:52,379
She was born in 1934.

375
00:16:52,479 --> 00:16:54,381
Her birth name was Sante.

376
00:16:54,481 --> 00:16:56,783
As a teen,
she switched it to Sandy

377
00:16:56,883 --> 00:16:58,518
and then back again.

378
00:16:58,619 --> 00:17:01,722
She changed her name
frequently from then on.

379
00:17:01,822 --> 00:17:04,658
Changed her story often, too.

380
00:17:04,758 --> 00:17:09,262
The original story was that
she was born in Oklahoma, uh,

381
00:17:09,363 --> 00:17:10,430
was one of the Okies.

382
00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:12,666
She ended up
in Hollywood.

383
00:17:12,766 --> 00:17:14,201
True?

384
00:17:14,301 --> 00:17:16,403
Maybe, maybe not.

385
00:17:16,503 --> 00:17:19,306
As Sante told it, her father
abandoned the family.

386
00:17:19,406 --> 00:17:21,041
Mom was on the streets
for the most part,

387
00:17:21,141 --> 00:17:22,509
what mom said.

388
00:17:22,609 --> 00:17:25,345
Supposedly her mother
was a prostitute.

389
00:17:25,445 --> 00:17:27,681
Later find out
that's not the case.

390
00:17:27,781 --> 00:17:29,683
- So she made up a story.
- Oh, the whole--

391
00:17:29,783 --> 00:17:31,351
My mother's entire life's
made up.

392
00:17:31,451 --> 00:17:32,953
You know, you get that
one little germ of truth.

393
00:17:33,053 --> 00:17:34,821
She always started out
with that kernel

394
00:17:34,921 --> 00:17:37,691
that-that you can believe,
that's probably honest.

395
00:17:37,791 --> 00:17:40,093
But as Kent learned
as a little boy,

396
00:17:40,193 --> 00:17:42,229
his single mom
knew how to survive,

397
00:17:42,329 --> 00:17:45,766
no matter how straitened
their circumstances.

398
00:17:45,866 --> 00:17:47,968
Our refrigerator up until
that point was peanut butter,

399
00:17:48,068 --> 00:17:49,903
and tortillas, and cheese.
That was it.

400
00:17:50,003 --> 00:17:52,005
I was lucky if there
was some milk in there.

401
00:17:52,105 --> 00:17:54,808
As for the way
Sante survived,

402
00:17:54,908 --> 00:17:57,210
that seemed normal
to young Kent.

403
00:17:57,311 --> 00:17:59,680
She certainly didn't
hide it from him.

404
00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:04,651
She was a credit card thief,
a shoplifter, a check kiter.

405
00:18:04,751 --> 00:18:09,389
And Kent became her very handy
and willing assistant,

406
00:18:09,489 --> 00:18:12,392
with some careful,
motherly schooling.

407
00:18:12,492 --> 00:18:13,627
I was small.
I fit through windows.

408
00:18:13,727 --> 00:18:14,995
I knew how to be a decoy.

409
00:18:15,095 --> 00:18:16,563
I knew how to make
attention happen.

410
00:18:16,663 --> 00:18:17,764
So people looked at me
instead of her

411
00:18:17,864 --> 00:18:18,865
while she did her thing.

412
00:18:18,966 --> 00:18:20,934
She was training me
how to do that.

413
00:18:21,034 --> 00:18:24,805
And somehow Sante got away
with it again and again.

414
00:18:24,905 --> 00:18:28,675
And young Kent looked at
her with a kind of awe.

415
00:18:28,775 --> 00:18:31,178
She didn't bow down
to anybody.

416
00:18:31,278 --> 00:18:33,113
Out in the world,
out in public,

417
00:18:33,213 --> 00:18:37,784
people noticed Sante,
and she liked it.

418
00:18:37,884 --> 00:18:38,919
I think the name
of the restaurant

419
00:18:39,019 --> 00:18:41,321
was the Cock and Bull.
It was in Hollywood.

420
00:18:41,421 --> 00:18:42,255
I don't think
it's there anymore.

421
00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:43,390
- I remember it well, yeah.
- Yeah.

422
00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:47,227
We were sitting at the bar
and a gal came up to her

423
00:18:47,327 --> 00:18:49,262
and asked her
for her autograph.

424
00:18:49,363 --> 00:18:52,299
And mom signed it,
"Elizabeth Taylor."

425
00:18:52,399 --> 00:18:53,800
- Elizabeth Taylor?
- Elizabeth Taylor.

426
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,370
She looked that much like
Elizabeth Taylor sometimes.

427
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:59,139
She didn't have the eyes,
but she had the charisma,

428
00:18:59,239 --> 00:19:01,742
the look, the cheeks,
the mouth.

429
00:19:02,676 --> 00:19:06,313
And then pure,
corrupt ambition.

430
00:19:06,413 --> 00:19:10,050
Sante's charisma changed
their lives for good.

431
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:12,386
The truth is,
mom was on a hunt

432
00:19:12,486 --> 00:19:13,654
for a millionaire.

433
00:19:13,754 --> 00:19:16,356
In 1970, Sante even
took a job at something

434
00:19:16,456 --> 00:19:19,426
called Palm Springs
Millionaire Magazine

435
00:19:19,526 --> 00:19:21,061
and was thereby able
to interview a man

436
00:19:21,161 --> 00:19:25,599
named Kenneth Kimes,
a millionaire 20 times over,

437
00:19:25,699 --> 00:19:27,634
his fortune made
in real estate,

438
00:19:27,734 --> 00:19:30,971
casinos, motels,
and mansions.

439
00:19:31,071 --> 00:19:35,309
Sante turned on her charm,
and Kenneth was smitten.

440
00:19:35,409 --> 00:19:37,844
A year later, they returned
from a trip to Mexico,

441
00:19:37,944 --> 00:19:39,813
declared they were married.

442
00:19:39,913 --> 00:19:42,082
And just like that...

443
00:19:42,182 --> 00:19:45,519
Our lives was beyond
the American dream.

444
00:19:45,619 --> 00:19:49,356
I mean, we lived in five
different oceanfront properties

445
00:19:49,456 --> 00:19:50,424
in Hawaii.

446
00:19:50,524 --> 00:19:52,959
We had an oceanfront estate
in the Bahamas.

447
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:55,896
We had a golf course
home in Las Vegas.

448
00:19:55,996 --> 00:19:57,230
They were all home.

449
00:19:57,331 --> 00:19:58,932
You know, it was
almost embarrassing.

450
00:19:59,032 --> 00:20:00,233
You know,
it was before cell phones.

451
00:20:00,334 --> 00:20:02,202
You give
your phone number out.

452
00:20:02,302 --> 00:20:03,670
Well, I had to give
five different phones out

453
00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:06,073
because I didn't know
where I was going to be.

454
00:20:06,173 --> 00:20:10,077
Four years later, 1975,
Kenny Jr. Was born.

455
00:20:11,011 --> 00:20:13,613
And now Sante
ran a full house,

456
00:20:13,714 --> 00:20:16,149
but not a nurturing one.

457
00:20:16,249 --> 00:20:17,818
She had rules,

458
00:20:17,918 --> 00:20:21,488
the sort no one
would dare defy.

459
00:20:21,588 --> 00:20:25,058
"No one answers the phone
and no one answers the door.

460
00:20:25,158 --> 00:20:26,026
"Do you got that?"

461
00:20:26,126 --> 00:20:28,161
And I just went,
"Oh, yeah, I got that."

462
00:20:38,405 --> 00:20:41,141
Welcome back to "Dateline:
Secrets Uncovered."

463
00:20:41,241 --> 00:20:42,242
I'm Craig Melvin.

464
00:20:42,342 --> 00:20:45,278
Sante and Kenny Kimes
were behind bars,

465
00:20:45,379 --> 00:20:48,382
suspects in the disappearance
of Irene Silverman.

466
00:20:48,482 --> 00:20:52,786
Turns out mother and son
were lifelong hustlers,

467
00:20:52,886 --> 00:20:55,956
and Sante's secret schemes
had made them rich.

468
00:20:56,056 --> 00:20:59,693
But, as you'll see,
it was the thrill of the crime

469
00:20:59,793 --> 00:21:03,363
that drove Sante,
no matter who paid the price.

470
00:21:03,463 --> 00:21:07,668
Back to Keith Morrison
with "The Devil Wore White."

471
00:21:09,603 --> 00:21:12,806
It was the late 1970s,
20 years or so before

472
00:21:12,906 --> 00:21:17,244
the unfortunate events at
Irene Silverman's place.

473
00:21:17,344 --> 00:21:20,981
Sante, Kenneth, Kent,
and now little Kenny Jr.,

474
00:21:21,081 --> 00:21:25,252
all living the lush life,
fancy clothes, and luxury cars,

475
00:21:25,352 --> 00:21:28,155
and villas
full of servants.

476
00:21:28,255 --> 00:21:31,958
In the house in Hawaii,
we had a secret storage spot

477
00:21:32,059 --> 00:21:33,293
in the master bedroom.

478
00:21:33,393 --> 00:21:35,929
She had 30 mink coats.

479
00:21:36,029 --> 00:21:39,032
Um, I've never seen anyone
wear a mink coat in Hawaii.

480
00:21:39,132 --> 00:21:41,968
I don't know
if you have or not.

481
00:21:42,069 --> 00:21:46,573
Sante at last seemed
to have the life she wanted.

482
00:21:46,673 --> 00:21:49,509
She always called me
"my darling Rhonda."

483
00:21:49,609 --> 00:21:52,012
Rhonda Martin was
Kent's high school girlfriend

484
00:21:52,112 --> 00:21:53,947
and spent lots of time
with the family

485
00:21:54,047 --> 00:21:55,849
in their seaside mansion.

486
00:21:55,949 --> 00:21:59,186
Sante was like a dream,
said Rhonda.

487
00:21:59,286 --> 00:22:01,221
A lovely dream.

488
00:22:01,321 --> 00:22:02,689
And she would
hug me, and,

489
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:04,391
"My son has such
a beautiful girlfriend."

490
00:22:04,491 --> 00:22:07,094
She would just
lavish me with love.

491
00:22:07,194 --> 00:22:09,363
- Stop!
- You look good.

492
00:22:09,463 --> 00:22:13,533
She always wore white,
muumuus at home, pantsuits,

493
00:22:13,633 --> 00:22:15,669
and just beautiful.

494
00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:18,805
And she always
had her hair perfect.

495
00:22:18,905 --> 00:22:20,307
I mean, it was
always perfect.

496
00:22:20,407 --> 00:22:22,843
Her eyes were black.

497
00:22:22,943 --> 00:22:26,079
Her-- like, her pupils,
they were piercing.

498
00:22:26,179 --> 00:22:30,350
When she looked at you,
she could look into your soul.

499
00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:32,285
I don't know if you've ever
had anyone do that to you,

500
00:22:32,386 --> 00:22:33,954
but she--

501
00:22:34,054 --> 00:22:37,658
You could feel her in--
knowing you.

502
00:22:37,758 --> 00:22:39,826
I mean, it was--
it was really--

503
00:22:39,926 --> 00:22:41,928
Well, in the beginning,
it was fabulous

504
00:22:42,029 --> 00:22:44,564
because she knew
everything to say to me.

505
00:22:44,665 --> 00:22:47,634
And she knew exactly
what she wanted.

506
00:22:47,734 --> 00:22:48,535
- Shh.
- Let's do it, sweetie.

507
00:22:48,635 --> 00:22:49,870
I'm the director.

508
00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:51,471
Made sure
everyone else did, too.

509
00:22:51,571 --> 00:22:53,373
One, two, three, camera.

510
00:22:53,473 --> 00:22:54,675
Action.

511
00:22:54,775 --> 00:22:58,412
So now that she was rich,
did Sante Kimes change her ways,

512
00:22:58,512 --> 00:23:01,181
renounce her compulsion
to lie and steal?

513
00:23:01,281 --> 00:23:04,284
Oh, no, not at all.

514
00:23:04,384 --> 00:23:08,689
And her compliant husband,
Ken Sr., seemed to love it.

515
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:11,792
Didn't he participate
willingly in her crimes?

516
00:23:11,892 --> 00:23:14,628
He didn't mind not having
to pay for dresses.

517
00:23:14,728 --> 00:23:19,132
He didn't mind not having to pay
for Cadillac Biarritz Eldorados

518
00:23:19,232 --> 00:23:21,068
in our driveway.

519
00:23:21,168 --> 00:23:24,404
He fell in love with
getting away with it.

520
00:23:24,504 --> 00:23:26,840
So from practically
the moment they met,

521
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:28,976
Ken played along,

522
00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:32,346
even with some of
Sante's wackier schemes.

523
00:23:32,446 --> 00:23:36,917
Like an idea to make money
from the 1976 bicentennial.

524
00:23:37,017 --> 00:23:39,353
Sante used
her considerable charm

525
00:23:39,453 --> 00:23:42,489
to cozy up to an official
of the United Nations.

526
00:23:42,589 --> 00:23:45,792
She got an endorsement
where Ken was actually named

527
00:23:45,892 --> 00:23:49,429
an honorary
Bicentennial ambassador.

528
00:23:49,529 --> 00:23:51,732
Well, that's all
you need to give Mom.

529
00:23:51,832 --> 00:23:54,901
It meant nothing, really,
but Sante and Kenneth

530
00:23:55,002 --> 00:23:58,205
went swanning around
like very important people,

531
00:23:58,305 --> 00:24:00,574
using the title
to flog a collection

532
00:24:00,674 --> 00:24:02,976
of Bicentennial memorabilia.

533
00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:05,112
And with
an extra lie or two,

534
00:24:05,212 --> 00:24:08,148
the fake ambassador and his wife
crashed a reception

535
00:24:08,248 --> 00:24:10,150
at Blair House
in Washington,

536
00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:13,420
shook hands with
Vice President Ford.

537
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:14,955
Secret Service
let them right through.

538
00:24:15,055 --> 00:24:16,256
And then they say,
"Well, who are you?"

539
00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:18,025
They couldn't answer,
so they kicked them out.

540
00:24:18,125 --> 00:24:22,429
And the next morning is
when everything hit the fan.

541
00:24:23,764 --> 00:24:26,767
The weird stunt was exposed
in the Washington Post.

542
00:24:26,867 --> 00:24:29,169
Just a hiccup for Sante.

543
00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:32,572
DC, again,
a few years later.

544
00:24:32,673 --> 00:24:35,876
It was late and this couple
came through the door.

545
00:24:35,976 --> 00:24:38,512
They were so distinctive,
you couldn't miss them.

546
00:24:38,612 --> 00:24:41,114
Winter, 1980.

547
00:24:41,214 --> 00:24:42,849
Rina Beechy
was enjoying a nightcap

548
00:24:42,949 --> 00:24:47,921
at a Washington, D.C. bar
when Ken and Sante swept in.

549
00:24:48,021 --> 00:24:52,426
Rina watched as Sante,
wearing a mink coat herself,

550
00:24:52,526 --> 00:24:56,763
nicked another one
right from another table.

551
00:24:56,863 --> 00:25:01,268
She was just pulling
her own coat up over it,

552
00:25:01,368 --> 00:25:04,538
and she stood up
and sauntered out of the place.

553
00:25:06,773 --> 00:25:09,176
The DC caper
didn't work out so well.

554
00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:13,180
Sante was charged with
grand and petty larceny.

555
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,482
But then she ditched
her own trial,

556
00:25:15,582 --> 00:25:18,986
simply skipped out of court
and went on as ever.

557
00:25:19,086 --> 00:25:22,022
That's who she was.
Why did she do this?

558
00:25:22,122 --> 00:25:24,091
Because that's
what she was.

559
00:25:24,191 --> 00:25:26,660
Sante's ambitions
only seemed to get bigger.

560
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,429
Like what she did with her
own beautiful beachfront home

561
00:25:29,529 --> 00:25:31,231
in Hawaii.

562
00:25:31,331 --> 00:25:35,268
Burned it to the ground
to collect the insurance money.

563
00:25:35,369 --> 00:25:39,239
But she was much too clever
to actually do it herself.

564
00:25:39,339 --> 00:25:44,511
My father was involved
in an arson in Honolulu.

565
00:25:44,611 --> 00:25:46,713
This is Ken Holmgren.

566
00:25:46,813 --> 00:25:49,716
His father, Elmer,
was a down on his luck attorney

567
00:25:49,816 --> 00:25:52,652
who got roped
into it somehow.

568
00:25:52,753 --> 00:25:55,088
Did they tell him
or ask him to set fire

569
00:25:55,188 --> 00:25:57,224
to the Kimes house
in Honolulu?

570
00:25:57,324 --> 00:26:01,728
I assume the Kimes
wanted him to do it,

571
00:26:01,828 --> 00:26:05,132
you know, as for
the Kimes's gain.

572
00:26:05,232 --> 00:26:08,135
If anyone knew how
persuasive Sante could be,

573
00:26:08,235 --> 00:26:09,569
it was Kent.

574
00:26:09,670 --> 00:26:10,771
She knew the words to you.

575
00:26:10,871 --> 00:26:12,439
She knew the emotions
to put onto you.

576
00:26:12,539 --> 00:26:14,941
And sometimes she did it
in positive ways,

577
00:26:15,042 --> 00:26:16,443
with love and affection.

578
00:26:16,543 --> 00:26:18,945
And she also knew how to
scare the hell out of you.

579
00:26:19,046 --> 00:26:20,814
Like when Kent was 12

580
00:26:20,914 --> 00:26:23,083
and still his mother's
little helper.

581
00:26:23,183 --> 00:26:26,820
And one day on his own,
he stole a surfboard

582
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,722
and got busted.

583
00:26:28,822 --> 00:26:31,191
I thought I was
going to go to jail.

584
00:26:31,291 --> 00:26:34,394
So Kent tried his best
to go straight.

585
00:26:34,494 --> 00:26:35,963
Maybe the difference between
you and your mother

586
00:26:36,063 --> 00:26:40,500
is if you get-- you get
caught stealing a surfboard,

587
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:41,902
it scares you straight.

588
00:26:42,002 --> 00:26:43,670
If she gets caught
stealing a surfboard,

589
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:45,639
it's encouragement
for the next time.

590
00:26:45,739 --> 00:26:47,407
She got mad
because I got caught

591
00:26:47,507 --> 00:26:50,744
and she tried to give me--

592
00:26:50,844 --> 00:26:52,479
She actually took me
to where I got caught,

593
00:26:52,579 --> 00:26:54,081
and she told me how
I should have done it

594
00:26:54,181 --> 00:26:56,483
so I wouldn't
have got caught.

595
00:26:56,583 --> 00:27:01,822
So Sante did nurture,
in a way, the criminal way.

596
00:27:01,922 --> 00:27:04,157
And she wasn't about to
let anyone get between

597
00:27:04,257 --> 00:27:06,159
her and her sons.

598
00:27:06,259 --> 00:27:09,696
A lieutenant from Hawaii 5-0
showed up at my house.

599
00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:11,965
That lieutenant told me,
if you contact him,

600
00:27:12,065 --> 00:27:16,036
she'll find you
and she will kill you.

601
00:27:20,674 --> 00:27:26,313
♪

602
00:27:26,413 --> 00:27:28,148
On the outside,
Kent lived what seemed to be

603
00:27:28,248 --> 00:27:30,317
a normal teenager's life.

604
00:27:30,417 --> 00:27:33,453
High school, sports,

605
00:27:33,553 --> 00:27:35,555
his girlfriend, Rhonda,

606
00:27:35,656 --> 00:27:38,392
who loved spending time
with Sante, too.

607
00:27:38,492 --> 00:27:40,093
Until the day...

608
00:27:40,193 --> 00:27:41,061
I was over there,

609
00:27:41,161 --> 00:27:42,863
and all of a sudden
the doorbell rang,

610
00:27:42,963 --> 00:27:45,699
and I jumped up
to answer it.

611
00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:49,202
She was in the kitchen,
and I swear to you,

612
00:27:49,303 --> 00:27:53,540
she flew over the counter
before I got to the door.

613
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,543
She got right up in
my face and she pulled me.

614
00:27:56,643 --> 00:27:58,245
I mean, I was this close
to her face.

615
00:27:58,345 --> 00:28:00,847
It was so close,
I could feel her breath.

616
00:28:00,947 --> 00:28:04,618
And she goes, "There are
two rules in this house.

617
00:28:04,718 --> 00:28:08,055
"No one answers the phone
and no one answers the door.

618
00:28:08,155 --> 00:28:09,790
"Do you got that?"

619
00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:12,025
And I just went,
"Oh, yeah, I got that."

620
00:28:12,125 --> 00:28:13,627
This is the first time you saw
anything other than

621
00:28:13,727 --> 00:28:15,062
the wonderful,
Elizabeth Taylor person?
- Very first time.

622
00:28:15,162 --> 00:28:16,730
I thought-- exactly.

623
00:28:16,830 --> 00:28:20,667
I had never seen that,
until that day.

624
00:28:20,767 --> 00:28:23,437
And that freaked me out.

625
00:28:23,537 --> 00:28:28,909
That day was a turning point
for Rhonda and Kent.

626
00:28:29,009 --> 00:28:31,611
Kent started talking to me
about things his mom

627
00:28:31,712 --> 00:28:33,213
would have him do.

628
00:28:33,313 --> 00:28:36,216
You know, like he said,
"Yeah, you know, my mom,

629
00:28:36,316 --> 00:28:38,285
"you know, she likes
to steal stuff

630
00:28:38,385 --> 00:28:40,620
"and she likes me
to help her out.

631
00:28:40,721 --> 00:28:42,189
"Like, I have to break
into people's houses

632
00:28:42,289 --> 00:28:43,156
"and climb in their windows,
dig in their--"

633
00:28:43,256 --> 00:28:44,558
Ooh, what is that like
to hear?

634
00:28:44,658 --> 00:28:46,860
I said, "You know, if you
get caught doing that,

635
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,463
"you could go to jail
and then eventually prison,

636
00:28:49,563 --> 00:28:51,131
"and then your mom
gets off scot free

637
00:28:51,231 --> 00:28:52,466
"because she can
fly off to Europe

638
00:28:52,566 --> 00:28:55,802
"and you're stuck paying
the bill for her crimes."

639
00:28:55,902 --> 00:28:58,305
I said, "You can't do that."

640
00:28:58,405 --> 00:29:00,507
Rhonda got
through to Kent.

641
00:29:00,607 --> 00:29:04,011
He refused to help
his mom steal anymore.

642
00:29:04,111 --> 00:29:07,514
And Sante was furious
with Rhonda.

643
00:29:07,614 --> 00:29:09,249
She called my mom
one day and said,

644
00:29:09,349 --> 00:29:11,651
"Your daughter has got
to stay away from my son.

645
00:29:11,752 --> 00:29:13,186
"I've had it with her."

646
00:29:13,286 --> 00:29:16,757
Well then about
that same time,

647
00:29:16,857 --> 00:29:20,527
a lieutenant from Hawaii 5-0
showed up at my house

648
00:29:20,627 --> 00:29:23,530
and knocked on the door
and told my mom and dad

649
00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:25,732
that she had put
a hit out on me.

650
00:29:25,832 --> 00:29:28,302
That lieutenant told me,
"Don't stick your head up

651
00:29:28,402 --> 00:29:31,271
"because if you contact him,
she'll find you

652
00:29:31,371 --> 00:29:33,707
"and she will kill you."

653
00:29:33,807 --> 00:29:35,742
And he thought
that I just left

654
00:29:35,842 --> 00:29:38,612
because he thought
that I just, you know,

655
00:29:38,712 --> 00:29:40,280
like an airhead kid,

656
00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:41,214
"Well, I don't
love you anymore."

657
00:29:41,314 --> 00:29:44,518
But that wasn't true.

658
00:29:44,618 --> 00:29:47,454
So Rhonda was gone

659
00:29:47,554 --> 00:29:50,757
and Kent was
going straight.

660
00:29:50,857 --> 00:29:53,260
After he graduated
from high school,

661
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,230
Kent left home
and later joined the army.

662
00:29:57,331 --> 00:30:00,467
When I left for the army,
it was tough.

663
00:30:00,567 --> 00:30:03,236
I mean, I will say, I have
to be honest with myself now.

664
00:30:03,337 --> 00:30:04,271
I ran away.
- Yeah.

665
00:30:04,371 --> 00:30:06,974
That's when mom
was her worst.

666
00:30:07,074 --> 00:30:08,875
But then, with Kent
out of the house,

667
00:30:08,976 --> 00:30:11,912
Sante turned to
his half brother, Kenny.

668
00:30:12,012 --> 00:30:15,482
Maybe he would make
a better partner in crime.

669
00:30:15,582 --> 00:30:17,918
I am my mother's
biggest disappointment.

670
00:30:18,018 --> 00:30:22,456
I was the one who was
supposed to be Kenny.

671
00:30:22,556 --> 00:30:26,760
Kent knew his mother loved
Kenny a little bit differently.

672
00:30:26,860 --> 00:30:27,628
He was the prince.

673
00:30:27,728 --> 00:30:31,164
He was tutored,
never got spanked.

674
00:30:31,264 --> 00:30:33,133
He was treated as
a golden child.

675
00:30:33,233 --> 00:30:35,569
He was so lonely.
He had no friends.

676
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:37,104
He had a tutor.

677
00:30:37,204 --> 00:30:39,306
And Kent and I would take him
to go get ice cream.

678
00:30:39,406 --> 00:30:41,975
But she hardly would ever
let us take him anywhere.

679
00:30:42,075 --> 00:30:43,543
We had to, like,
sneak him off.

680
00:30:43,643 --> 00:30:46,079
He had a very unusual
upbringing, your brother.

681
00:30:46,179 --> 00:30:47,481
Kenny didn't
have a chance.

682
00:30:47,581 --> 00:30:49,116
He didn't have a chance.

683
00:30:49,216 --> 00:30:51,284
Not with his mother, no.

684
00:30:51,385 --> 00:30:53,320
Take for example,
a little problem she had

685
00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:55,722
with the household staff.

686
00:30:55,822 --> 00:30:59,293
At first, Sante's maids
were treated well, said Kent,

687
00:30:59,393 --> 00:31:03,764
like members of the family,
really, but not for long.

688
00:31:03,864 --> 00:31:06,033
The anger is like
a warm bath sometimes.

689
00:31:06,133 --> 00:31:07,668
It's just like
everything else in her life.

690
00:31:07,768 --> 00:31:09,503
Elevated, elevated, elevated.

691
00:31:09,603 --> 00:31:13,874
And so the maids then became
the enemy in the house.

692
00:31:15,042 --> 00:31:17,644
The women complained
to law enforcement

693
00:31:17,744 --> 00:31:19,413
and in a lawsuit.

694
00:31:19,513 --> 00:31:21,415
John Doty is
a private detective

695
00:31:21,515 --> 00:31:23,984
who's investigated
Sante's background.

696
00:31:24,084 --> 00:31:26,453
Evidently, she would lock
the maids in their rooms.

697
00:31:26,553 --> 00:31:29,323
They were under constant watch,
and I believe she attacked

698
00:31:29,423 --> 00:31:32,125
one of them with
a hot iron once.

699
00:31:32,225 --> 00:31:34,528
Here she is forced to
sit for a deposition

700
00:31:34,628 --> 00:31:36,129
about the allegations.

701
00:31:36,229 --> 00:31:40,033
I'm very unhappy with having
to give any testimony to you.

702
00:31:40,133 --> 00:31:42,703
It was all a fabrication,
said Sante.

703
00:31:42,803 --> 00:31:46,440
But I've never
yelled loudly or--

704
00:31:46,540 --> 00:31:49,676
And I haven't--
certainly never, um,

705
00:31:49,776 --> 00:31:52,579
physically touched
any of them.

706
00:31:52,679 --> 00:31:54,181
She denied it all.

707
00:31:54,281 --> 00:31:55,949
No, that is not correct.

708
00:31:56,049 --> 00:31:57,250
That is a total lie.

709
00:31:57,351 --> 00:32:00,687
Making herself
into the victim.

710
00:32:00,787 --> 00:32:06,126
I have been through
an intolerable nightmare.

711
00:32:06,226 --> 00:32:09,296
The law intervened,
and indicted Kenneth and Sante

712
00:32:09,396 --> 00:32:12,332
for violating
anti slavery laws,

713
00:32:12,432 --> 00:32:16,570
a charge that hadn't been used
for a very, very long time.

714
00:32:16,670 --> 00:32:20,107
Ken Sr. accepted a plea deal
on the criminal charges,

715
00:32:20,207 --> 00:32:24,211
but Sante took her case
to trial and was convicted.

716
00:32:24,311 --> 00:32:27,214
She spent three years
in federal prison.

717
00:32:27,314 --> 00:32:30,083
And Kent came back around
to help his stepfather

718
00:32:30,183 --> 00:32:31,151
and brother.

719
00:32:31,251 --> 00:32:33,787
I was kind of
a surrogate father to Kenny

720
00:32:33,887 --> 00:32:35,722
in a way, and the part
that's frustrating,

721
00:32:35,822 --> 00:32:38,191
that was the time maybe I could
have helped Kenny more,

722
00:32:38,292 --> 00:32:40,627
and I didn't,
you know?

723
00:32:40,727 --> 00:32:44,297
And then mom returned
and things went back to normal,

724
00:32:44,398 --> 00:32:49,036
if such could be used for
the life of Sante Kimes.

725
00:32:49,136 --> 00:32:52,305
Kent got married,
started his own family,

726
00:32:52,406 --> 00:32:55,108
made Sante a grandmother.

727
00:32:55,208 --> 00:32:58,812
- Say hi. Give a smile.
- Cheese!

728
00:32:58,912 --> 00:33:01,915
This a decade
before the events

729
00:33:02,015 --> 00:33:04,785
on that July 4th weekend
in New York when

730
00:33:04,885 --> 00:33:08,021
Irene Silverman disappeared.

731
00:33:08,121 --> 00:33:10,657
And though Kent tried to
put some distance

732
00:33:10,757 --> 00:33:13,727
between his old life
and his new one,

733
00:33:13,827 --> 00:33:16,263
here he is running
the video camera

734
00:33:16,363 --> 00:33:17,831
on a family vacation.

735
00:33:17,931 --> 00:33:20,500
Don't tape me
when I'm fat like--

736
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,969
They're at
the Kimes beachfront estate

737
00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:24,738
in the Bahamas,

738
00:33:24,838 --> 00:33:28,075
an address that will come
into play a little later

739
00:33:28,175 --> 00:33:29,609
in our story.

740
00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:32,879
Last day here.
Been a great vacation.

741
00:33:32,979 --> 00:33:35,482
Thanks for everything, guys.

742
00:33:35,582 --> 00:33:39,219
Just a few months after
that island vacation in 1994,

743
00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:42,289
Kent got a call
from his mom.

744
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:43,690
Mom's hysterical.

745
00:33:43,790 --> 00:33:44,891
"They won't fix him.
They won't fix him.

746
00:33:44,992 --> 00:33:45,859
"They won't fix him."

747
00:33:45,959 --> 00:33:46,927
And I had-- you know,
at the time,

748
00:33:47,027 --> 00:33:49,329
I'm not putting two
and two together.

749
00:33:49,429 --> 00:33:51,398
She hangs up.

750
00:33:51,498 --> 00:33:52,799
And then it dawned on him.

751
00:33:52,899 --> 00:33:55,202
His mother was telling
him that Ken Sr.,

752
00:33:55,302 --> 00:33:58,105
his stepfather,
had died.

753
00:33:58,205 --> 00:34:02,009
And after Sante
seemed unhinged,

754
00:34:02,109 --> 00:34:04,177
even more than usual,

755
00:34:04,277 --> 00:34:05,846
because it turned out
they'd blown through

756
00:34:05,946 --> 00:34:08,882
most of Ken's fortune
when he was alive.

757
00:34:08,982 --> 00:34:11,651
And now that he was dead,
all that was left

758
00:34:11,752 --> 00:34:14,321
were a few properties
and some cash tucked away

759
00:34:14,421 --> 00:34:16,256
in offshore accounts.

760
00:34:16,356 --> 00:34:17,157
Mom didn't have
any checkbooks.

761
00:34:17,257 --> 00:34:19,559
She had no accounts.
She had nothing.

762
00:34:19,660 --> 00:34:22,396
Now she was
scrambling for money.

763
00:34:22,496 --> 00:34:24,865
The frenzy of it all
spooked Kent.

764
00:34:24,965 --> 00:34:27,067
He eventually stopped
taking her calls.

765
00:34:27,167 --> 00:34:28,869
I had made a break
from mom and Kenny.

766
00:34:28,969 --> 00:34:30,470
We were estranged.

767
00:34:30,570 --> 00:34:33,340
And I missed Mom.

768
00:34:34,274 --> 00:34:38,645
Kent had no idea then that
he had timed his exit perfectly.

769
00:34:38,745 --> 00:34:41,848
It was now just a year before
that New York City summer

770
00:34:41,948 --> 00:34:45,385
when Irene Silverman
disappeared.

771
00:34:45,485 --> 00:34:47,988
Who knew what
a desperate mother and son

772
00:34:48,088 --> 00:34:51,091
were capable of together?

773
00:34:51,191 --> 00:34:52,959
There was a homeless man
looking through

774
00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:55,729
the garbage cans,
big dumpsters.

775
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:57,297
- Yeah.
- Dug through--

776
00:34:57,397 --> 00:34:58,265
through the trash,

777
00:34:58,365 --> 00:35:01,468
and saw that there
was a body in there.

778
00:35:05,605 --> 00:35:12,079
♪

779
00:35:12,179 --> 00:35:14,581
It was the spring of 1998,

780
00:35:14,681 --> 00:35:16,983
four months before
Irene Silverman disappeared

781
00:35:17,084 --> 00:35:18,585
in New York City,

782
00:35:18,685 --> 00:35:20,721
and Kent Walker
was living in Las Vegas.

783
00:35:20,821 --> 00:35:22,289
He had done the hard part.

784
00:35:22,389 --> 00:35:23,957
Cut off his mother
and little brother,

785
00:35:24,057 --> 00:35:26,560
who was now 23, for good.

786
00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:29,096
And now...
- I missed the good stuff.

787
00:35:29,196 --> 00:35:31,932
It was hard, you know,
but I was doing okay.

788
00:35:32,032 --> 00:35:35,535
Kent had no idea where
Kenny and Sante were

789
00:35:35,635 --> 00:35:38,505
or that they had
moved on themselves.

790
00:35:38,605 --> 00:35:41,608
In fact, they were
in Los Angeles now.

791
00:35:41,708 --> 00:35:45,512
Had rented a wing of a house
in affluent Brentwood.

792
00:35:45,612 --> 00:35:48,048
Looking for trouble, maybe.

793
00:35:48,148 --> 00:35:50,717
I was working homicide

794
00:35:50,817 --> 00:35:52,719
at the Los Angeles
Police Department.

795
00:35:52,819 --> 00:35:56,556
Detective Bill Cox was
also unaware the Kimes

796
00:35:56,657 --> 00:35:58,659
that arrived in
the City of Angels.

797
00:35:58,759 --> 00:36:00,594
In fact, he had never
heard of them,

798
00:36:00,694 --> 00:36:02,429
not yet anyway,

799
00:36:02,529 --> 00:36:05,766
when he caught a curious case
about 15 miles down the freeway

800
00:36:05,866 --> 00:36:07,067
from Brentwood.

801
00:36:07,167 --> 00:36:10,303
Something about a body
in a dumpster

802
00:36:10,404 --> 00:36:12,472
in a back alley near LAX.

803
00:36:12,572 --> 00:36:15,142
There was a homeless man
walking down the alley,

804
00:36:15,242 --> 00:36:17,210
looking through
the garbage cans.

805
00:36:17,311 --> 00:36:18,745
Big dumpsters.
- Yeah.

806
00:36:18,845 --> 00:36:20,480
Dug through the--
through the trash

807
00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:25,385
and there was a big
green trash bag in there,

808
00:36:25,485 --> 00:36:28,388
and saw that there was
a body in there.

809
00:36:28,488 --> 00:36:31,258
The body in the dumpster
was a male, middle aged,

810
00:36:31,358 --> 00:36:33,994
with a single bullet hole
in the back of his head.

811
00:36:34,094 --> 00:36:37,397
He was identified quickly
by the coroner's office

812
00:36:37,497 --> 00:36:39,232
as being David Kazdin.

813
00:36:39,333 --> 00:36:40,968
David Kazdin.

814
00:36:41,068 --> 00:36:42,836
He seemed like
a regular sort of guy.

815
00:36:42,936 --> 00:36:45,906
63 years old, businessman.

816
00:36:46,006 --> 00:36:47,674
He lived alone
up in the valley,

817
00:36:47,774 --> 00:36:50,310
30 miles from the dumpster
where he ended up.

818
00:36:50,410 --> 00:36:52,479
My partner and I went
over to the house.

819
00:36:52,579 --> 00:36:54,815
The first thing that
we went into his bedroom,

820
00:36:54,915 --> 00:36:58,185
we saw that the bed had--
was turned down.

821
00:36:58,285 --> 00:37:02,055
And then when we went
into the living room area,

822
00:37:02,155 --> 00:37:04,858
you look at the carpet,
and the carpet was just perfect.

823
00:37:06,193 --> 00:37:09,563
In fact, the whole house
was just about pristine.

824
00:37:09,663 --> 00:37:11,131
David's daughter
told them she'd been there

825
00:37:11,231 --> 00:37:13,367
two nights previous
and she was sure

826
00:37:13,467 --> 00:37:16,370
they saw someone
lurking outside.

827
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:18,805
There was a Car parked
in front of the house.

828
00:37:18,905 --> 00:37:20,273
And they got
very nervous about it.

829
00:37:20,374 --> 00:37:22,142
And I think the car
slowly drove off

830
00:37:22,242 --> 00:37:23,810
when they looked out there.

831
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:26,179
And that wasn't the only time,
said the daughter.

832
00:37:26,279 --> 00:37:29,182
For weeks, somebody had been
harassing David Kazdin,

833
00:37:29,282 --> 00:37:31,518
calling, stopping by.

834
00:37:31,618 --> 00:37:34,254
She knew there was
some kind of business dispute,

835
00:37:34,354 --> 00:37:36,423
something about
a real estate transaction

836
00:37:36,523 --> 00:37:37,958
gone bad.

837
00:37:38,058 --> 00:37:40,227
So she gave
the detectives a name.

838
00:37:40,327 --> 00:37:43,563
She's the one that brought up
right away about, uh,

839
00:37:43,664 --> 00:37:45,232
Sante Kimes.

840
00:37:45,332 --> 00:37:48,869
Yes, that Sante Kimes.

841
00:37:48,969 --> 00:37:51,772
A little digging
revealed the connection.

842
00:37:51,872 --> 00:37:53,307
Kazdin had been
a longtime friend

843
00:37:53,407 --> 00:37:56,943
and sometimes business partner
to both Sante and Ken Sr.,

844
00:37:57,044 --> 00:38:00,447
and years earlier, he had
done them a small favor.

845
00:38:00,547 --> 00:38:04,017
Ken Sr., trying to dodge
legal bills and hide his assets,

846
00:38:04,117 --> 00:38:06,620
asked Kazdin to put
his name on the deed

847
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:10,524
to one of their properties,
a mansion on Geronimo Way

848
00:38:10,624 --> 00:38:12,526
in Las Vegas.

849
00:38:12,626 --> 00:38:14,528
David, you know, reluctantly,
I guess, just said,

850
00:38:14,628 --> 00:38:17,831
"Yeah, go ahead, you know,
but not for too long."

851
00:38:17,931 --> 00:38:19,433
And so they did it.

852
00:38:19,533 --> 00:38:22,302
And, uh, about six months later,
from what I understand,

853
00:38:22,402 --> 00:38:24,838
he had asked if, you know,
can, you know--

854
00:38:24,938 --> 00:38:26,173
"Can you guys take me
off of the thing?"

855
00:38:26,273 --> 00:38:28,175
And he had talked to Sante
because Ken was dead

856
00:38:28,275 --> 00:38:31,144
by this time,
and said, you know,

857
00:38:31,244 --> 00:38:32,446
"Take me off the-the thing."

858
00:38:32,546 --> 00:38:35,549
And she goes, "Oh, yes, dear,
we'll do all this."

859
00:38:35,649 --> 00:38:38,352
But Sante didn't do that.

860
00:38:38,452 --> 00:38:41,054
Instead, without telling Kazdin,
she came up with a scheme

861
00:38:41,154 --> 00:38:44,925
to turn a problem into
a money making solution,

862
00:38:45,025 --> 00:38:47,561
for her, at least.

863
00:38:47,661 --> 00:38:50,230
She went down to a bank,
Mrs. Kimes did,

864
00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:52,299
And she's the one that
tricked the bank

865
00:38:52,399 --> 00:38:54,968
into taking a loan
out of Mr. Kazdin.

866
00:38:55,068 --> 00:38:56,570
I don't know
how she did it.

867
00:38:56,670 --> 00:38:59,306
I don't know how the bank
allowed her to do it.

868
00:38:59,406 --> 00:39:02,809
Sante got ready to
walk away with 280,000,

869
00:39:02,909 --> 00:39:06,646
and Kazdin was on
the hook for it all.

870
00:39:06,747 --> 00:39:08,715
And then he discovers
he's got to pay back

871
00:39:08,815 --> 00:39:09,816
all this money.

872
00:39:09,916 --> 00:39:11,852
Yeah, he gets this thing
in the-- in the mail

873
00:39:11,952 --> 00:39:14,755
with 360 payments,
and you owe this much money

874
00:39:14,855 --> 00:39:17,124
every month, and he was
just flabbergasted.

875
00:39:17,224 --> 00:39:19,326
And so he goes
through the roof

876
00:39:19,426 --> 00:39:21,328
and basically calls Sante
and says,

877
00:39:21,428 --> 00:39:22,629
"What-what
are you doing?"

878
00:39:22,729 --> 00:39:25,565
You know, and leaves
a message for her.

879
00:39:25,666 --> 00:39:29,036
And she calls him back
and she says, "You know,

880
00:39:29,136 --> 00:39:32,105
"asking questions
about the loan--"

881
00:39:32,205 --> 00:39:33,040
something to the effect
of it won't be good

882
00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:35,542
for your health.

883
00:39:35,642 --> 00:39:37,744
Kazdin ignored
the warning,

884
00:39:37,844 --> 00:39:40,747
and the bank launched
an investigation.

885
00:39:40,847 --> 00:39:42,115
And then,
what do you know,

886
00:39:42,215 --> 00:39:45,852
a suspicious fire destroyed
that Vegas mansion.

887
00:39:45,952 --> 00:39:48,689
And Sante,
claiming the house was hers,

888
00:39:48,789 --> 00:39:51,058
tried to collect
the insurance.

889
00:39:51,158 --> 00:39:55,462
She was
constantly thinking,

890
00:39:55,562 --> 00:39:58,432
"How am I going to get
the next dollar?"

891
00:39:58,532 --> 00:40:00,467
It was obvious to
detectives that Sante Kimes

892
00:40:00,567 --> 00:40:02,069
needed to be questioned
about the murder

893
00:40:02,169 --> 00:40:03,870
of David Kazdin.

894
00:40:03,970 --> 00:40:05,572
And they learned
that she and her son

895
00:40:05,672 --> 00:40:08,308
were staying in
that Brentwood house.

896
00:40:08,408 --> 00:40:10,510
So my partner and I went
up to the house that night

897
00:40:10,610 --> 00:40:13,613
and just missed them
by hours.

898
00:40:13,714 --> 00:40:16,483
They had left LA and Sante's
preferred mode of transport,

899
00:40:16,583 --> 00:40:18,952
a Lincoln Town Car.

900
00:40:19,052 --> 00:40:22,756
PI Doty traced it to
a dealership in Utah

901
00:40:22,856 --> 00:40:26,226
where Sante bought it,
sort of.

902
00:40:26,326 --> 00:40:28,628
And she'd trade
in her old car,

903
00:40:28,729 --> 00:40:29,796
an older Lincoln,

904
00:40:29,896 --> 00:40:32,032
and then give the guy
a check for the difference.

905
00:40:32,132 --> 00:40:34,001
But the check
never cleared.

906
00:40:34,101 --> 00:40:36,603
The dealer
reported the car stolen,

907
00:40:36,703 --> 00:40:40,073
and the local sheriff issued
warrants for Sante and Kenny,

908
00:40:40,173 --> 00:40:42,275
wanted for
grand theft auto.

909
00:40:42,376 --> 00:40:46,213
That was just what the LAPD
needed to amp up their search,

910
00:40:46,313 --> 00:40:49,349
something concrete to hold
Sante and Kenny on.

911
00:40:49,449 --> 00:40:52,352
If only they
could find them.

912
00:40:52,452 --> 00:40:55,155
For months, detectives
ran down tips from people

913
00:40:55,255 --> 00:40:58,725
who knew them in Los Angeles,
in Las Vegas,

914
00:40:58,825 --> 00:41:00,527
in you name it.

915
00:41:00,627 --> 00:41:02,696
Every place we went,
we would miss them

916
00:41:02,796 --> 00:41:04,831
just by days,

917
00:41:04,931 --> 00:41:07,634
sometimes a day,
sometimes just hours.

918
00:41:07,734 --> 00:41:08,802
They were
constantly moving.

919
00:41:08,902 --> 00:41:10,203
Did she know you
were on their tail?

920
00:41:10,303 --> 00:41:12,506
I-- well, I think so.

921
00:41:12,606 --> 00:41:16,076
And then sleuthing
paid off.

922
00:41:16,176 --> 00:41:18,378
Detective Cox
landed an informant,

923
00:41:18,478 --> 00:41:20,914
a guy who'd done
odd jobs for Sante

924
00:41:21,014 --> 00:41:24,451
in LA and Las Vegas
by the name of Stan Patterson.

925
00:41:24,551 --> 00:41:27,921
Stan became basically
our eyes and ears,

926
00:41:28,021 --> 00:41:31,525
because he said Sante
would call him once in a while.

927
00:41:31,625 --> 00:41:34,027
So we told them,
"Hey, next time she calls you,

928
00:41:34,127 --> 00:41:36,296
"let us know."

929
00:41:36,396 --> 00:41:39,499
Meanwhile, across
the country in New York,

930
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:42,736
that wealthy widow,
Irene Silverman was still

931
00:41:42,836 --> 00:41:45,806
living her fine life
on the Upper East Side.

932
00:41:45,906 --> 00:41:48,542
Nothing to worry about.

933
00:41:48,642 --> 00:41:51,812
But the fourth of July
was right around the corner.

934
00:41:51,912 --> 00:41:55,148
And so was a confrontation
on a busy street

935
00:41:55,248 --> 00:41:58,118
in midtown Manhattan.

936
00:41:58,218 --> 00:42:01,088
One of the agents
grabbed Sante, took her bag.

937
00:42:01,188 --> 00:42:02,956
I saw there were,
like, five agents

938
00:42:03,056 --> 00:42:04,691
struggling with Kenneth.

939
00:42:04,791 --> 00:42:07,260
- Couldn't take him down?
- Couldn't take him down.

940
00:42:07,361 --> 00:42:10,697
Mother and son, suspects in
a years long crime spree,

941
00:42:10,797 --> 00:42:14,301
that included
two murders, at least.

942
00:42:14,401 --> 00:42:17,270
How did it ever
get this far?

943
00:42:17,371 --> 00:42:19,706
Kenny Kimes will tell us.

944
00:42:19,806 --> 00:42:21,775
There's a lot
of chaos in my youth.

945
00:42:21,875 --> 00:42:22,843
I love my parents,

946
00:42:22,943 --> 00:42:25,278
but there's a lot of
complexity there.

947
00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:39,393
Welcome back to
"Dateline: Secrets Uncovered".

948
00:42:39,493 --> 00:42:40,694
I'm Craig Melvin.

949
00:42:40,794 --> 00:42:43,130
Detectives in LA
had a good idea

950
00:42:43,230 --> 00:42:46,333
how David Kazdin ended up
in a dumpster,

951
00:42:46,433 --> 00:42:48,502
and who put him there.

952
00:42:48,602 --> 00:42:51,638
Their suspects,
Sante and Kenny Kimes,
had vanished.

953
00:42:51,738 --> 00:42:55,509
But a reliable tip was about
to reveal their location,

954
00:42:55,609 --> 00:42:56,777
setting the stage for

955
00:42:56,877 --> 00:43:00,380
a high stakes
undercover operation.

956
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,151
Back to Keith Morrison
with "The Devil Wore White".

957
00:43:05,152 --> 00:43:07,754
It was the summer 1998.

958
00:43:07,854 --> 00:43:10,190
Mother and son outlaws,
Sante and Kenny Kimes

959
00:43:10,290 --> 00:43:13,026
had been dodging
police for months.

960
00:43:13,126 --> 00:43:14,995
And then, on July 3rd,

961
00:43:15,095 --> 00:43:16,963
just before
the holiday weekend,

962
00:43:17,064 --> 00:43:19,099
Detective Cox's phone rang.

963
00:43:19,199 --> 00:43:22,102
It was his informant,
Stan Patterson.

964
00:43:22,202 --> 00:43:24,671
He says that the Kimeses

965
00:43:24,771 --> 00:43:28,775
are in New York

966
00:43:28,875 --> 00:43:32,179
and they are getting
an apartment,

967
00:43:32,279 --> 00:43:34,014
and they wanted me
to manage it.

968
00:43:34,114 --> 00:43:35,182
My, my, my.

969
00:43:35,282 --> 00:43:37,384
And to bring a gun
with me when I--

970
00:43:37,484 --> 00:43:39,753
when I come out there
to New York.

971
00:43:39,853 --> 00:43:42,422
Stan the informant,
agreed to go to New York

972
00:43:42,522 --> 00:43:45,492
and help lead police
to Sante and Kenny.

973
00:43:45,592 --> 00:43:49,062
We contact NYPD,
and so we told them

974
00:43:49,162 --> 00:43:51,398
that Stan was on an airplane
coming out there,

975
00:43:51,498 --> 00:43:52,933
and could they follow him?

976
00:43:53,033 --> 00:43:55,769
And we needed the Kimeses,
if they found them,

977
00:43:55,869 --> 00:43:57,537
to arrest them.

978
00:43:57,637 --> 00:44:00,707
Arrest them for that
outstanding car theft warrant,

979
00:44:00,807 --> 00:44:02,442
which is how
Detective Ed Murray

980
00:44:02,542 --> 00:44:06,146
of the NYPD Fugitive Task Force
got involved.

981
00:44:06,246 --> 00:44:08,749
He was part of
a sting operation

982
00:44:08,849 --> 00:44:11,518
using Stan the informant
as bait.

983
00:44:11,618 --> 00:44:14,588
When Stanley arrived, he was
wearing a bulletproof vest.

984
00:44:14,688 --> 00:44:16,490
Okay, was he spooked?

985
00:44:16,590 --> 00:44:17,758
He was scared.

986
00:44:17,858 --> 00:44:22,129
He-he did tell me that he was
afraid of Kenny and Sante,

987
00:44:22,229 --> 00:44:26,033
and that they're there
to kill him.

988
00:44:26,133 --> 00:44:28,368
Stan arranged a meeting
with Sante and Kenny

989
00:44:28,468 --> 00:44:31,872
at the Hilton Hotel
in Midtown Manhattan.

990
00:44:31,972 --> 00:44:34,741
Outside the hotel, there
happened to be a street fair

991
00:44:34,841 --> 00:44:37,477
and a huge bustling crowd.

992
00:44:39,146 --> 00:44:42,015
There was a lot of
pedestrian traffic going on.

993
00:44:42,115 --> 00:44:43,550
And you know what?
It kind of helped

994
00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:46,186
during our surveillance
of the hotel.

995
00:44:46,286 --> 00:44:47,754
How'd they show up?

996
00:44:47,854 --> 00:44:52,225
Well, we waited
about eight hours.

997
00:44:52,326 --> 00:44:53,927
Good Lord.

998
00:44:54,027 --> 00:44:56,930
At around 5:00 PM,
they decided to call it a day.

999
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:59,933
Sante and Kenny were
clearly no shows.

1000
00:45:00,033 --> 00:45:02,469
We're standing in
the lobby of the hotel,

1001
00:45:02,569 --> 00:45:06,373
and, uh, we're trying
to come up with a plan.

1002
00:45:06,473 --> 00:45:07,541
Yeah.

1003
00:45:07,641 --> 00:45:09,776
And all of a sudden,
I hear this screeching woman

1004
00:45:09,876 --> 00:45:12,646
yell out, "Stanley!"

1005
00:45:12,746 --> 00:45:14,581
It was Sante.

1006
00:45:14,681 --> 00:45:16,249
She walked through
that hotel lobby

1007
00:45:16,350 --> 00:45:18,552
as if she owned the place.

1008
00:45:18,652 --> 00:45:20,554
And she comes over
to Stanley.

1009
00:45:20,654 --> 00:45:22,889
She embraces Stanley.

1010
00:45:22,990 --> 00:45:25,492
Kenny was running late,

1011
00:45:25,592 --> 00:45:29,363
so Sante and Stan
grabbed a drink,

1012
00:45:29,463 --> 00:45:33,900
took a walk on 6th Avenue,
and then Kenny arrived.

1013
00:45:34,001 --> 00:45:36,303
Time to move in.

1014
00:45:36,403 --> 00:45:39,272
One of the agents grabbed
Sante, took her bag.

1015
00:45:39,373 --> 00:45:41,675
I saw there were, like,
five agents struggling

1016
00:45:41,775 --> 00:45:43,443
with-with Kenneth.

1017
00:45:43,543 --> 00:45:45,612
- Couldn't take him down.
- Couldn't take him down.

1018
00:45:45,712 --> 00:45:47,180
And then we got him down.

1019
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,316
I searched Kenneth,

1020
00:45:49,416 --> 00:45:52,252
and he had a set
of brass knuckles.

1021
00:45:52,352 --> 00:45:53,620
He had a knife on him.

1022
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:55,989
As we were struggling
with him,

1023
00:45:56,089 --> 00:45:59,026
he, uh, he urinated
in his pants,

1024
00:45:59,126 --> 00:46:00,861
wet his pants.

1025
00:46:00,961 --> 00:46:04,231
Finally subdued and cuffed,
Kenny and Sante were driven

1026
00:46:04,331 --> 00:46:06,400
downtown for questioning.

1027
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:10,370
Ed Murray rode up front,
holding Sante's bag.

1028
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:11,872
What was in the bag?

1029
00:46:11,972 --> 00:46:16,009
What was in the bag
was a lot of cash.

1030
00:46:16,109 --> 00:46:17,544
I said to my partner,

1031
00:46:17,644 --> 00:46:20,781
and Sante is in
the back seat of the car.

1032
00:46:20,881 --> 00:46:24,318
I say, there's gotta be
about $10,000 in cash in here.

1033
00:46:24,418 --> 00:46:26,620
Sante responds now.
- Okay.

1034
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,289
She responds,
oh, well, you can't come

1035
00:46:29,389 --> 00:46:33,694
to Manhattan on vacation
without less than $10,000.

1036
00:46:35,762 --> 00:46:40,200
Murray situated the odd pair
in that Manhattan jail.

1037
00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:42,803
And the next day,
the police unit looking

1038
00:46:42,903 --> 00:46:44,905
for Irene Silverman,
the millionaire widow

1039
00:46:45,005 --> 00:46:47,374
missing from her swanky
Eastside townhouse,

1040
00:46:47,474 --> 00:46:48,976
held their press conference.

1041
00:46:49,076 --> 00:46:50,911
Irene Silverman was
in good health,

1042
00:46:51,011 --> 00:46:52,946
both physically and mentally.

1043
00:46:53,046 --> 00:46:55,983
That is when, you may
recall, police presented

1044
00:46:56,083 --> 00:47:00,487
that sketch of Silverman's
missing tenant, Manny Guerin.

1045
00:47:00,587 --> 00:47:04,124
And soon after,
Murray recognized that man

1046
00:47:04,224 --> 00:47:08,195
as the car thief he had
just arrested, Kenny Kimes.

1047
00:47:08,295 --> 00:47:11,999
And by then, Murray had made
another incrimination discovery,

1048
00:47:12,099 --> 00:47:15,869
one that tied the Kimes
directly to the missing widow.

1049
00:47:15,969 --> 00:47:18,605
They had
in their possession

1050
00:47:18,705 --> 00:47:22,642
identification belonging
to Irene Silverman.

1051
00:47:22,743 --> 00:47:26,646
Inside Sante's purse,
along with the big wad of cash,

1052
00:47:26,747 --> 00:47:29,583
was Irene's passport.

1053
00:47:29,683 --> 00:47:31,618
And just like that,

1054
00:47:31,718 --> 00:47:33,987
two completely
separate investigations

1055
00:47:34,087 --> 00:47:36,256
suddenly merged
into one very big

1056
00:47:36,356 --> 00:47:38,825
and very strange case.

1057
00:47:38,925 --> 00:47:40,727
We knew we were looking
at a homicide investigation

1058
00:47:40,827 --> 00:47:41,928
at that point.

1059
00:47:42,029 --> 00:47:43,463
Twists and turns
aplenty today

1060
00:47:43,563 --> 00:47:46,566
in the disappearance of
82-year-old Irene Silverman.

1061
00:47:46,667 --> 00:47:49,202
Police are not sure where
this investigation is heading.

1062
00:47:50,871 --> 00:47:52,372
It turned out
the investigation was headed

1063
00:47:52,472 --> 00:47:56,009
to New Jersey because
the informant Stan Patterson

1064
00:47:56,109 --> 00:47:58,245
told police that
when Sante and Kenny

1065
00:47:58,345 --> 00:48:01,314
were late for that meeting
at the Hilton Hotel,

1066
00:48:01,415 --> 00:48:03,917
it was because they were
stuck in traffic

1067
00:48:04,017 --> 00:48:05,986
in New Jersey.

1068
00:48:06,086 --> 00:48:08,989
We got the phone numbers
from every dumpster that we saw

1069
00:48:09,089 --> 00:48:10,957
to find out where they
dumped their garbage.

1070
00:48:11,058 --> 00:48:13,727
Did any part of you think
that she might still be alive?

1071
00:48:13,827 --> 00:48:16,263
No.
Not me personally, no.

1072
00:48:16,363 --> 00:48:18,265
Hovagim was convinced
they'd been busy

1073
00:48:18,365 --> 00:48:21,335
dumping Irene Silverman's body
that morning,

1074
00:48:21,435 --> 00:48:23,103
returning to New York
just in time

1075
00:48:23,203 --> 00:48:25,038
to be arrested

1076
00:48:25,138 --> 00:48:27,774
on that unrelated
car theft charge.

1077
00:48:27,874 --> 00:48:30,477
That arrest came just
hours after Irene Silverman

1078
00:48:30,577 --> 00:48:32,212
last week was seen.

1079
00:48:32,312 --> 00:48:34,348
Impossible not to wonder

1080
00:48:34,448 --> 00:48:36,149
if that out of state warrant
had arrived

1081
00:48:36,249 --> 00:48:38,585
just a few hours earlier,

1082
00:48:38,685 --> 00:48:41,888
would Irene Silverman's life
have been spared?

1083
00:48:41,989 --> 00:48:44,157
Hope is fading tonight
that Irene Silverman

1084
00:48:44,257 --> 00:48:46,259
will ever be found alive.

1085
00:48:47,828 --> 00:48:50,430
But Sante Kimes,
now caged with son Kenny

1086
00:48:50,530 --> 00:48:54,001
in a downtown jail,
was as confident as ever.

1087
00:48:54,101 --> 00:48:57,871
And her charm offensive
was just getting started.

1088
00:48:57,971 --> 00:49:01,208
She fluffed her hair,
she tilted her head,

1089
00:49:01,308 --> 00:49:02,976
she batted her eyes.

1090
00:49:03,076 --> 00:49:07,280
This onslaught of
flirtatious energy.

1091
00:49:17,224 --> 00:49:20,727
Sante Kimes
is-is the--

1092
00:49:20,827 --> 00:49:23,630
is a walking contradiction.

1093
00:49:23,730 --> 00:49:25,599
It was more than
two decades ago

1094
00:49:25,699 --> 00:49:30,003
when I met Sante Kimes
firstborn son, Kent Walker,

1095
00:49:30,103 --> 00:49:32,439
the kid apprentice
who went straight.

1096
00:49:32,539 --> 00:49:35,642
Kent saw it all,
lived it all.

1097
00:49:35,742 --> 00:49:38,378
But the big arrest
in New York City?

1098
00:49:38,478 --> 00:49:40,847
That he learned about
from the news.

1099
00:49:40,947 --> 00:49:42,649
And...

1100
00:49:42,749 --> 00:49:45,218
I had no doubt.
I don't.

1101
00:49:45,319 --> 00:49:46,887
There was just no doubt.
- That they were guilty.

1102
00:49:46,987 --> 00:49:48,722
Yeah.

1103
00:49:48,822 --> 00:49:50,991
Yeah, I-I didn't want that.

1104
00:49:51,091 --> 00:49:54,161
I-I wanted so much for them
not to be guilty of this,

1105
00:49:54,261 --> 00:49:57,464
you know,
uh, but I just--

1106
00:49:57,564 --> 00:49:58,965
I had to be honest
with myself.

1107
00:49:59,066 --> 00:50:00,500
What was it that
made you--

1108
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,870
about this,
that made you so sure?

1109
00:50:03,970 --> 00:50:06,540
Well, things had
gone terribly wrong,

1110
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,976
and I'd become
fearful of them.

1111
00:50:09,076 --> 00:50:11,545
Um, fearful enough to where
I didn't want to be around them

1112
00:50:11,645 --> 00:50:12,979
and I didn't want them
around me

1113
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,851
because I knew--
not to the scope of this.

1114
00:50:17,951 --> 00:50:20,554
But I knew they were
heading for a fall.

1115
00:50:20,654 --> 00:50:21,555
I should have
seen it coming.

1116
00:50:21,655 --> 00:50:23,357
I didn't.

1117
00:50:23,457 --> 00:50:25,726
You always thought they'd
just try to con people.

1118
00:50:25,826 --> 00:50:27,861
The scams, the cons,
you know--

1119
00:50:27,961 --> 00:50:29,796
- Shoplifting.
- Shoplifting.

1120
00:50:29,896 --> 00:50:31,231
And I'm not condoning that.

1121
00:50:31,331 --> 00:50:32,966
I mean, that's bad stuff,
don't get me wrong.

1122
00:50:33,066 --> 00:50:35,369
But there's a far-far cry
from stealing some lipstick

1123
00:50:35,469 --> 00:50:39,339
or picking up a stereo
and-and killing someone.

1124
00:50:39,439 --> 00:50:40,741
Investigators, too,
were quite sure

1125
00:50:40,841 --> 00:50:42,175
that Kenny and Sante Kimes

1126
00:50:42,275 --> 00:50:44,978
were behind Irene's
sudden disappearance.

1127
00:50:45,078 --> 00:50:47,581
They were certain they had
a murder case on their hands.

1128
00:50:47,681 --> 00:50:49,549
But they just had
one big problem.

1129
00:50:49,649 --> 00:50:51,651
They could not
find Irene's body.

1130
00:50:51,752 --> 00:50:55,055
And proving murder could
be quite difficult.

1131
00:50:55,155 --> 00:50:58,659
But then they recovered
that stolen Lincoln,

1132
00:50:58,759 --> 00:51:02,029
and it was a gold mine.

1133
00:51:02,129 --> 00:51:04,865
There was a lot of
things in that car.

1134
00:51:04,965 --> 00:51:09,970
Clothes, wigs, a gun,
an empty Taser box.

1135
00:51:10,070 --> 00:51:12,639
And perhaps
most damaging of all,

1136
00:51:12,739 --> 00:51:15,309
a stack of
Sante's notebooks.

1137
00:51:15,409 --> 00:51:18,979
I think she had 15 notebooks
of all kinds of things,

1138
00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:20,580
Irene's movements.

1139
00:51:20,681 --> 00:51:22,182
Then she'd write,
like a laundry list,

1140
00:51:22,282 --> 00:51:26,453
like shower curtain,
handcuffs, stun gun.

1141
00:51:26,553 --> 00:51:28,655
From the notebooks,
it was obvious

1142
00:51:28,755 --> 00:51:32,125
Sante and Kenny targeted
Irene for her wealth

1143
00:51:32,225 --> 00:51:34,161
and plotted to steal
her identity

1144
00:51:34,261 --> 00:51:36,229
and drain her fortune.

1145
00:51:36,330 --> 00:51:39,533
The big prize was that
incredibly valuable townhouse,

1146
00:51:39,633 --> 00:51:41,401
not to mention
the apartments inside

1147
00:51:41,501 --> 00:51:43,870
that rented
for 6,000 a month.

1148
00:51:43,970 --> 00:51:47,441
That's why they asked Stan to
come and join them in New York,

1149
00:51:47,541 --> 00:51:50,377
unaware he was now
an informant.

1150
00:51:50,477 --> 00:51:52,612
Kenny and Sante,
they had to--

1151
00:51:52,713 --> 00:51:55,749
they knew what they were
gonna do with-with--

1152
00:51:55,849 --> 00:51:57,451
sadly, with Irene Silverman.

1153
00:51:57,551 --> 00:51:59,453
- Sure.
- They were going to use

1154
00:51:59,553 --> 00:52:04,291
Stanley Patterson
as, uh, a person that

1155
00:52:04,391 --> 00:52:06,193
was supposed to maintain

1156
00:52:06,293 --> 00:52:09,196
the building that
Irene Silverman owned.

1157
00:52:09,296 --> 00:52:12,466
They found out that Irene
owned the building outright.

1158
00:52:12,566 --> 00:52:13,800
There was no mortgage
left on it.

1159
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:15,002
She owned it.

1160
00:52:15,102 --> 00:52:17,170
Um, so that put
the scheme in motion.

1161
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:19,639
Then they-- you know,
they looked for a notary.

1162
00:52:19,740 --> 00:52:22,342
They did their research,
I guess, as far as the deed,

1163
00:52:22,442 --> 00:52:25,345
obtaining a deed
and things like that.

1164
00:52:25,445 --> 00:52:28,181
On December 16th,
Sante and Kenny Kimes

1165
00:52:28,281 --> 00:52:31,585
were charged with murdering
Irene Silverman.

1166
00:52:31,685 --> 00:52:35,555
They would remain
behind bars to await trial.

1167
00:52:35,656 --> 00:52:39,826
But Sante was by no means
ready to admit defeat,

1168
00:52:39,926 --> 00:52:41,662
locked up or no.

1169
00:52:41,762 --> 00:52:44,064
I think Sante is one of
the most fascinating people

1170
00:52:44,164 --> 00:52:46,199
I've ever met.

1171
00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:49,836
Back in 1998, CiCi McNair
was a private investigator

1172
00:52:49,936 --> 00:52:51,638
in New York City.

1173
00:52:51,738 --> 00:52:53,507
Sante had assembled
a legal team

1174
00:52:53,607 --> 00:52:56,810
to fight every one
of the charges against her,

1175
00:52:56,910 --> 00:53:00,013
and CiCi was
brought in to help.

1176
00:53:00,113 --> 00:53:03,116
In their first meeting,
CiCi saw that jail

1177
00:53:03,216 --> 00:53:06,153
had not dimmed
Sante one bit.

1178
00:53:06,253 --> 00:53:08,355
She came down
a long hallway.

1179
00:53:08,455 --> 00:53:11,892
She's wearing sort of
a gray track suit.

1180
00:53:11,992 --> 00:53:15,495
Her hair was black,
thick black eyebrows.

1181
00:53:15,595 --> 00:53:18,432
And you could see
that she really was

1182
00:53:18,532 --> 00:53:20,133
a beautiful woman.

1183
00:53:20,233 --> 00:53:22,235
I was there with
Matthew Wiseman,

1184
00:53:22,336 --> 00:53:24,604
who was one of
the four lawyers.

1185
00:53:24,705 --> 00:53:27,107
And Matthew Wiseman was
immediately the focus

1186
00:53:27,207 --> 00:53:28,842
of her attention.

1187
00:53:28,942 --> 00:53:32,579
She fluffed her hair,
she tilted her head,

1188
00:53:32,679 --> 00:53:34,114
she batted her eyes.

1189
00:53:34,214 --> 00:53:39,286
This onslaught of
flirtatious energy.

1190
00:53:39,386 --> 00:53:42,222
Sante insisted
through her lawyers

1191
00:53:42,322 --> 00:53:44,624
that she and her Kenny
were as innocent

1192
00:53:44,725 --> 00:53:46,460
as newborn babes.

1193
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,762
Let's just say with
reference to Ms. Silverman,

1194
00:53:48,862 --> 00:53:51,264
they deny, uh, categorically
all the charges.

1195
00:53:51,365 --> 00:53:52,299
We are categorically
denying them.

1196
00:53:52,399 --> 00:53:54,167
We are being framed.

1197
00:53:54,267 --> 00:53:55,936
You've got to help us.

1198
00:53:56,036 --> 00:54:00,774
Sante was never anything
less than self assured,

1199
00:54:00,874 --> 00:54:03,977
absolutely certain
of what she was saying.

1200
00:54:04,077 --> 00:54:07,981
And this is someone
who gets what she wants

1201
00:54:08,081 --> 00:54:10,951
because I watched her
and she manipulated me.

1202
00:54:11,051 --> 00:54:12,319
She would appeal to me

1203
00:54:12,419 --> 00:54:15,088
as the only other woman
on the case.

1204
00:54:15,188 --> 00:54:17,924
The men just don't get it.

1205
00:54:18,025 --> 00:54:19,359
You get it.

1206
00:54:19,459 --> 00:54:23,030
You're going to save me
and my darling Kenny

1207
00:54:23,130 --> 00:54:27,434
from the greatest injustice
in history of the United States.

1208
00:54:28,702 --> 00:54:31,405
And the story just
kept getting bigger.

1209
00:54:31,505 --> 00:54:33,974
Tips and leads popping up
from all the places

1210
00:54:34,074 --> 00:54:36,076
Sante had left
an impression.

1211
00:54:38,512 --> 00:54:41,615
Oh, and of course,
Sante had a plan.

1212
00:54:41,715 --> 00:54:44,785
She and Kenny were
going to play offense

1213
00:54:44,885 --> 00:54:47,721
on national TV.

1214
00:54:47,821 --> 00:54:49,589
Oh, boy.

1215
00:54:49,690 --> 00:54:51,692
It just feels
a little unnatural

1216
00:54:51,792 --> 00:54:53,894
to anyone on the outside.

1217
00:55:04,571 --> 00:55:06,206
By the time
Kenny and Sante Kimes

1218
00:55:06,306 --> 00:55:07,374
were charged with murder,

1219
00:55:07,474 --> 00:55:09,910
they had become
household names.

1220
00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:11,378
The mother and son
made headlines

1221
00:55:11,478 --> 00:55:15,048
not just in New York City,
but around the whole world.

1222
00:55:15,148 --> 00:55:16,583
I'm Tiwa Chang in
the Bahamas, following

1223
00:55:16,683 --> 00:55:19,286
the trail of
Kenneth and Sante Kimes.

1224
00:55:19,386 --> 00:55:23,490
That trail led reporters
to Douglas Hanna,

1225
00:55:23,590 --> 00:55:26,994
the lead investigator at
the Royal Bahamas Police Force.

1226
00:55:27,094 --> 00:55:28,362
We have a missing man here.

1227
00:55:28,462 --> 00:55:30,964
And it appears that
this woman has been surrounded

1228
00:55:31,064 --> 00:55:32,499
by missing persons.

1229
00:55:32,599 --> 00:55:35,168
Hanna knew all about
Sante and Kenny Kimes

1230
00:55:35,268 --> 00:55:37,671
because two years earlier,

1231
00:55:37,771 --> 00:55:40,340
they were the last people
seen with a man named

1232
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:45,112
Syed Bilal Ahmed,
a man missing ever since.

1233
00:55:45,212 --> 00:55:47,748
Mr. Ahmed flew
to the Bahamas

1234
00:55:47,848 --> 00:55:52,486
to investigate irregularities
in Ken Sr.'s accounts.

1235
00:55:52,586 --> 00:55:55,355
John Marquis was
a journalist in the Bahamas,

1236
00:55:55,455 --> 00:55:56,790
and he learned about

1237
00:55:56,890 --> 00:55:59,326
Sante's desperate
scramble for money

1238
00:55:59,426 --> 00:56:01,561
after Ken Sr. died.

1239
00:56:01,662 --> 00:56:04,698
Sante had been drawing
money from the accounts.

1240
00:56:04,798 --> 00:56:07,501
To quickly get at whatever
was left of Ken's fortune,

1241
00:56:07,601 --> 00:56:09,736
Sante pretended
he was still alive

1242
00:56:09,836 --> 00:56:11,938
and forged documents
to withdraw money

1243
00:56:12,039 --> 00:56:15,475
from Ken's offshore
Caribbean accounts.

1244
00:56:15,575 --> 00:56:17,944
There was just one problem.

1245
00:56:18,045 --> 00:56:22,149
Ahmed, a bank auditor,
was paying attention,

1246
00:56:22,249 --> 00:56:24,551
and he asked
to talk to Sante.

1247
00:56:24,651 --> 00:56:29,323
Mr. Ahmed was anticipating
a fairly conciliatory meeting,

1248
00:56:29,423 --> 00:56:32,392
which was aimed primarily at
just sorting the matter out

1249
00:56:32,492 --> 00:56:35,128
and finding out
what was going on.

1250
00:56:35,228 --> 00:56:38,065
Ahmed met with
Sante and Kenny over dinner.

1251
00:56:38,165 --> 00:56:40,167
And when the sun
came up the next day,

1252
00:56:40,267 --> 00:56:43,770
the phone rang at
the Royal Bahamas Police Force.

1253
00:56:43,870 --> 00:56:46,239
Ahmed was nowhere
to be found,

1254
00:56:46,340 --> 00:56:48,742
but neither was Sante.

1255
00:56:48,842 --> 00:56:51,511
We tried to find a--
to try to find a link,

1256
00:56:51,611 --> 00:56:54,915
uh, about what the link
was all about.

1257
00:56:55,015 --> 00:56:57,751
But the police chief
had no idea where she was

1258
00:56:57,851 --> 00:56:59,720
until those New York
booking photos

1259
00:56:59,820 --> 00:57:02,055
made international headlines.

1260
00:57:02,155 --> 00:57:06,360
So now Sante and Kenny were
suspects in not one or two,

1261
00:57:06,460 --> 00:57:09,696
but perhaps
three murder investigations.

1262
00:57:09,796 --> 00:57:14,067
But from her jail cell,
Sante was determined.

1263
00:57:14,167 --> 00:57:17,838
She continued
to proclaim her innocence

1264
00:57:17,938 --> 00:57:20,941
and that they were framed.

1265
00:57:21,041 --> 00:57:23,477
And they didn't
do it quietly.

1266
00:57:23,577 --> 00:57:26,279
She and Kenny started
talking to reporters,

1267
00:57:26,380 --> 00:57:29,483
including a sit down interview
with 60 Minutes.

1268
00:57:29,583 --> 00:57:31,385
I was married to
a wonderful man.

1269
00:57:31,485 --> 00:57:34,321
He was a big old Irishman.
Kenny looks a lot like him.

1270
00:57:34,421 --> 00:57:37,291
There was
the interview on 60 Minutes.

1271
00:57:37,391 --> 00:57:39,426
Everybody was
talking about it.

1272
00:57:39,526 --> 00:57:41,762
There they were,
mother and son,

1273
00:57:41,862 --> 00:57:46,500
accused murderers,
looking a little too intimate.

1274
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,970
Sante and Kenny were
sitting way too close together

1275
00:57:50,070 --> 00:57:52,205
and they were holding hands.

1276
00:57:52,305 --> 00:57:56,877
And... it just didn't look

1277
00:57:56,977 --> 00:58:00,080
exactly normal
for a mother and son

1278
00:58:00,180 --> 00:58:03,784
to be sitting that close

1279
00:58:03,884 --> 00:58:06,219
or holding hands.

1280
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:07,988
And there was
the gushing about

1281
00:58:08,088 --> 00:58:09,923
how beautiful
his mother was.

1282
00:58:10,023 --> 00:58:12,125
I think she's
a beautiful person,

1283
00:58:12,225 --> 00:58:13,961
spiritually
and intellectually

1284
00:58:14,061 --> 00:58:15,896
and-and physically.

1285
00:58:15,996 --> 00:58:18,632
What was going on
here exactly?

1286
00:58:18,732 --> 00:58:21,501
Kent saw that TV interview
too, of course.

1287
00:58:21,601 --> 00:58:24,237
Saw the very public intimacy.

1288
00:58:24,338 --> 00:58:25,572
'Cause the 60 Minutes
interview,

1289
00:58:25,672 --> 00:58:27,307
they're holding their hand
and stuff like that.

1290
00:58:27,407 --> 00:58:28,742
The whole incest thing,
it was weird.

1291
00:58:28,842 --> 00:58:31,044
- Yeah, it just--
- I mean, and it's--

1292
00:58:31,144 --> 00:58:32,446
And it's Catnip, you know.

1293
00:58:32,546 --> 00:58:34,147
I don't believe,
and it's not because

1294
00:58:34,247 --> 00:58:35,449
I don't want
to believe it.

1295
00:58:35,549 --> 00:58:36,717
I know it didn't happen.

1296
00:58:36,817 --> 00:58:37,751
And I will say this.

1297
00:58:37,851 --> 00:58:39,753
Their relationship
was not normal.

1298
00:58:41,221 --> 00:58:43,323
It was short of sexual,
let's put it that way.

1299
00:58:43,423 --> 00:58:45,492
I mean, was it intimate?
I'm sure it was intimate,

1300
00:58:45,592 --> 00:58:47,728
but I don't think
it was anything sexual.

1301
00:58:47,828 --> 00:58:49,563
Now I asked her about it,

1302
00:58:49,663 --> 00:58:51,898
and she said,
"Oh, honey, who could--

1303
00:58:51,999 --> 00:58:54,534
how could anybody ever say
something like that?

1304
00:58:54,635 --> 00:58:56,303
I only held Kenny
to my breast

1305
00:58:56,403 --> 00:58:59,306
when he was a baby
to keep him warm.

1306
00:58:59,406 --> 00:59:01,041
It's disgusting."

1307
00:59:01,141 --> 00:59:03,043
Kenny denied it, too.

1308
00:59:03,143 --> 00:59:06,580
And CiCi said she
believed Sante...

1309
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:07,848
to a point.

1310
00:59:07,948 --> 00:59:11,752
But maybe there is such thing
as an emotional incest

1311
00:59:11,852 --> 00:59:14,554
where they're so close

1312
00:59:14,655 --> 00:59:17,924
that it just feels
a little unnatural

1313
00:59:18,025 --> 00:59:19,993
to anyone on the outside.

1314
00:59:21,461 --> 00:59:24,064
Rhonda was inside
for a while.

1315
00:59:24,164 --> 00:59:27,501
Saw Sante try
to groom Kent

1316
00:59:27,601 --> 00:59:29,970
and then succeed
with Kenny.

1317
00:59:30,070 --> 00:59:33,774
All of his grooming years,
he was completely under her.

1318
00:59:33,874 --> 00:59:36,810
- Yeah.
- She never let him go.

1319
00:59:36,910 --> 00:59:38,612
She took him everywhere.

1320
00:59:38,712 --> 00:59:41,381
Yes, and this whole
so called incestuous thing,

1321
00:59:41,481 --> 00:59:42,516
whether it happened or not,

1322
00:59:42,616 --> 00:59:43,450
she was--
- Yeah.

1323
00:59:43,550 --> 00:59:44,384
It didn't really matter.
It was--

1324
00:59:44,484 --> 00:59:46,053
They were always
like that together.

1325
00:59:46,153 --> 00:59:47,154
And I don't-- I have no--

1326
00:59:47,254 --> 00:59:49,122
I can't say that
any of that happened

1327
00:59:49,222 --> 00:59:50,524
because I never saw it.
- Yeah.

1328
00:59:50,624 --> 00:59:52,359
You know, I'm not saying
it didn't, and I'm--

1329
00:59:52,459 --> 00:59:55,095
but I never saw it
happen like that.

1330
00:59:55,195 --> 00:59:56,129
But--

1331
00:59:56,229 --> 00:59:59,066
I mean, it's-it's-it's
the codependency

1332
00:59:59,166 --> 01:00:00,801
that matters, right?
- Yes, yes.

1333
01:00:00,901 --> 01:00:04,004
He was a victim
because he never had

1334
01:00:04,104 --> 01:00:07,641
any influence
from anyone else.

1335
01:00:07,741 --> 01:00:10,077
So a new question now.

1336
01:00:10,177 --> 01:00:12,879
Kenny was behind bars,
separated from his mother

1337
01:00:12,979 --> 01:00:15,716
for the first time
in years.

1338
01:00:15,816 --> 01:00:20,754
What would Sante's son do
left to his own devices?

1339
01:00:20,854 --> 01:00:23,090
Next thing I know,
he's around my back

1340
01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:25,859
with his arm across my neck

1341
01:00:25,959 --> 01:00:28,729
and he did say to me,
this is a hostage situation.

1342
01:00:37,904 --> 01:00:39,206
Welcome back.

1343
01:00:39,306 --> 01:00:42,342
Sante and Kenny Kimes
were still making headlines,

1344
01:00:42,442 --> 01:00:44,578
even from behind bars.

1345
01:00:44,678 --> 01:00:45,912
Speaking to reporters,

1346
01:00:46,013 --> 01:00:48,849
the oddly affectionate
mother and son

1347
01:00:48,949 --> 01:00:52,019
insisted they did not kill
Irene Silverman.

1348
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:54,388
Now the case was
headed to court,

1349
01:00:54,488 --> 01:00:56,056
where prosecutors
would lay out

1350
01:00:56,156 --> 01:00:57,891
a detailed theory
of the crime

1351
01:00:57,991 --> 01:01:02,629
and reveal an explosive
piece of evidence.

1352
01:01:02,729 --> 01:01:06,199
Back to Keith Morrison with
"The Devil Wore White".

1353
01:01:09,569 --> 01:01:12,406
The moment of
reckoning had arrived.

1354
01:01:12,506 --> 01:01:14,875
The trial of
Sante and Kenny Kimes

1355
01:01:14,975 --> 01:01:17,010
for murdering
Irene Silverman began

1356
01:01:17,110 --> 01:01:19,413
in a Manhattan courthouse.

1357
01:01:19,513 --> 01:01:21,748
It was a tricky case
in a way.

1358
01:01:21,848 --> 01:01:25,218
No body and no DNA
or other physical evidence

1359
01:01:25,319 --> 01:01:28,055
to tie mother and son
to the crime.

1360
01:01:28,155 --> 01:01:29,656
But Detective Hovagim
was feeling

1361
01:01:29,756 --> 01:01:32,092
as confident as
he could be.

1362
01:01:32,192 --> 01:01:36,029
We had such circumstantial,
overwhelming evidence

1363
01:01:36,129 --> 01:01:38,065
that I knew we'd
get a conviction.

1364
01:01:40,567 --> 01:01:43,870
I think the DA
presented 130 witnesses.

1365
01:01:44,838 --> 01:01:48,442
The motive was pure
cold-blooded greed,

1366
01:01:48,542 --> 01:01:49,977
said the prosecution.

1367
01:01:50,077 --> 01:01:52,979
Sante wanted that townhouse.

1368
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,048
And so they killed Irene.

1369
01:01:55,148 --> 01:01:57,651
And Sante pretended
to be Irene,

1370
01:01:57,751 --> 01:01:59,453
duping a notary
into approving

1371
01:01:59,553 --> 01:02:02,589
the legal documents
to steal the house.

1372
01:02:02,689 --> 01:02:04,157
They got the notary
to come in.

1373
01:02:04,257 --> 01:02:07,094
They forged a deed.
They got her signature.

1374
01:02:07,194 --> 01:02:08,628
The notary
testified to that,

1375
01:02:08,729 --> 01:02:11,732
but where was
the deed now?

1376
01:02:11,832 --> 01:02:14,701
Well, the jury learned that
police had been listening in

1377
01:02:14,801 --> 01:02:17,037
on Sante's jailhouse calls.

1378
01:02:17,137 --> 01:02:19,406
And so they heard
when she asked CiCi

1379
01:02:19,506 --> 01:02:21,708
and another private detective
to go pick up

1380
01:02:21,808 --> 01:02:26,146
a bag she checked at
New York's Plaza Hotel.

1381
01:02:26,246 --> 01:02:28,315
It sounded urgent.

1382
01:02:28,415 --> 01:02:31,118
You have to go and pick up
the bag at the Plaza.

1383
01:02:31,218 --> 01:02:32,653
You have to go.
You have to go.

1384
01:02:32,753 --> 01:02:34,521
Hundreds of times.

1385
01:02:34,621 --> 01:02:37,090
When the PI went
to get the bag,

1386
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:40,060
investigators were
right behind.

1387
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:41,461
What was in the bag?

1388
01:02:41,561 --> 01:02:43,130
In the bag was
the deed to the house.

1389
01:02:43,230 --> 01:02:44,898
The most important
piece of evidence

1390
01:02:44,998 --> 01:02:46,733
that, uh, that we needed.

1391
01:02:46,833 --> 01:02:48,535
That's what we
were searching for.

1392
01:02:48,635 --> 01:02:50,437
That was the nail
in the coffin.

1393
01:02:50,537 --> 01:02:52,706
A jury found
Sante and Kenny Kimes

1394
01:02:52,806 --> 01:02:56,009
guilty of 118 charges,

1395
01:02:56,109 --> 01:02:58,945
including
second degree murder.

1396
01:02:59,046 --> 01:03:01,815
Just rang out in the courtroom
over and over and over again.

1397
01:03:01,915 --> 01:03:04,384
Guilty, guilty,
guilty, guilty.

1398
01:03:04,484 --> 01:03:06,186
I was so happy
when the verdict came

1399
01:03:06,286 --> 01:03:08,689
that they were
guilty of murder,

1400
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:11,858
but at the same time with
a lot of sadness, you know.

1401
01:03:11,959 --> 01:03:15,128
Uh, my friend's
never coming back.

1402
01:03:15,228 --> 01:03:17,798
Kent Walker,
the son who escaped,

1403
01:03:17,898 --> 01:03:21,368
has been contemplating
that awful act for years.

1404
01:03:21,468 --> 01:03:24,905
I think at the time
they found Silverman,

1405
01:03:25,005 --> 01:03:28,675
I think they'd gotten away
with so much up to that point

1406
01:03:28,775 --> 01:03:31,244
where they didn't
have a fear

1407
01:03:31,345 --> 01:03:33,046
of going for
that big score.

1408
01:03:33,146 --> 01:03:34,448
They thought-- they really
thought they were

1409
01:03:34,548 --> 01:03:36,083
gonna get away with it.

1410
01:03:36,183 --> 01:03:40,153
Right after it was over,
CiCi went to check on Sante.

1411
01:03:40,253 --> 01:03:42,622
I expected tears.

1412
01:03:42,723 --> 01:03:47,394
I-I expected hysteria

1413
01:03:47,494 --> 01:03:49,997
because of
her volatile personality.

1414
01:03:50,097 --> 01:03:52,065
And instead of that,

1415
01:03:52,165 --> 01:03:53,667
she threw her arms
around me

1416
01:03:53,767 --> 01:03:58,071
and she just said,
we have to start on the appeal.

1417
01:03:58,171 --> 01:04:01,375
Kenny's reaction was
starkly different.

1418
01:04:01,475 --> 01:04:04,578
He was absolutely gray.

1419
01:04:04,678 --> 01:04:07,280
Ashen is the perfect word.

1420
01:04:07,381 --> 01:04:09,983
He could not believe
what had happened

1421
01:04:10,083 --> 01:04:14,621
because hadn't his mother
told him a thousand times,

1422
01:04:14,721 --> 01:04:17,057
we're innocent,
we're innocent.

1423
01:04:17,157 --> 01:04:20,827
Despite the guilty verdict,
crucial questions remained,

1424
01:04:20,927 --> 01:04:24,698
like, where and how
was Irene murdered?

1425
01:04:24,798 --> 01:04:28,969
Only they knew that,
and neither would say yet.

1426
01:04:29,069 --> 01:04:31,805
Kenny was sentenced
to 125 years,

1427
01:04:31,905 --> 01:04:33,974
his mother to 120.

1428
01:04:36,043 --> 01:04:38,912
Kenny was sent to a prison
in upstate New York.

1429
01:04:39,012 --> 01:04:41,415
And that's where
freelance journalist Maria Zone

1430
01:04:41,515 --> 01:04:42,883
went to interview him

1431
01:04:42,983 --> 01:04:46,186
while working on
a Court TV documentary.

1432
01:04:46,286 --> 01:04:48,388
The interview was at noon.

1433
01:04:48,488 --> 01:04:51,892
The corrections officer
brings me to an empty cafeteria.

1434
01:04:51,992 --> 01:04:53,694
There were two chairs.

1435
01:04:53,794 --> 01:04:58,098
And Kenny walks in
in his prison garb.

1436
01:04:58,198 --> 01:05:01,234
And I'm sitting down
with my two man crew.

1437
01:05:01,335 --> 01:05:05,372
And right away I could tell
something was going on,

1438
01:05:05,472 --> 01:05:07,607
like his mind was racing.

1439
01:05:07,708 --> 01:05:09,109
Are you saying, though,
that Mrs. Silverman

1440
01:05:09,209 --> 01:05:11,111
was aware that
you were sharing

1441
01:05:11,211 --> 01:05:12,245
the apartment
with your mother?

1442
01:05:12,346 --> 01:05:14,414
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.

1443
01:05:14,514 --> 01:05:16,850
And after about
10 minutes, he said,

1444
01:05:16,950 --> 01:05:18,919
can I go to the bathroom?

1445
01:05:19,019 --> 01:05:22,789
So he went to
the bathroom the first time,

1446
01:05:22,889 --> 01:05:25,826
asked him a couple
of more questions.

1447
01:05:25,926 --> 01:05:27,794
10 minutes
must have gone by.

1448
01:05:27,894 --> 01:05:29,563
Can I go to
the bathroom again?

1449
01:05:29,663 --> 01:05:32,132
Could we take a break in
maybe five or ten minutes?

1450
01:05:32,232 --> 01:05:34,034
Then finally, the third time,
he said to me,

1451
01:05:34,134 --> 01:05:35,769
"Maria, I'm really hungry.

1452
01:05:35,869 --> 01:05:38,271
Would you mind getting me
something to eat?"

1453
01:05:38,372 --> 01:05:40,707
So Maria got
a Snickers bar and a water

1454
01:05:40,807 --> 01:05:43,010
from a vending machine,

1455
01:05:43,110 --> 01:05:45,212
and then she
handed them to Kenny.

1456
01:05:46,613 --> 01:05:48,215
Big mistake.

1457
01:05:48,315 --> 01:05:51,418
It all happened
incredibly fast.

1458
01:05:51,518 --> 01:05:53,687
Next thing I know
he's around my back

1459
01:05:53,787 --> 01:05:56,590
with his arm
across my neck.

1460
01:05:56,690 --> 01:05:59,826
And he did say to me,
this is a hostage situation.

1461
01:05:59,926 --> 01:06:02,596
The Court TV crew recorded
a few seconds of it

1462
01:06:02,696 --> 01:06:04,631
until Kenny
demanded they stop.

1463
01:06:04,731 --> 01:06:07,100
[indistinct chatter]

1464
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,536
Back, cameraman back!

1465
01:06:09,636 --> 01:06:11,872
He was holding a pen
to Maria's throat,

1466
01:06:11,972 --> 01:06:13,373
the same pen you could
see him handling

1467
01:06:13,473 --> 01:06:15,075
during the interview.

1468
01:06:15,175 --> 01:06:16,943
Maria was terrified,

1469
01:06:17,044 --> 01:06:20,113
but like a good reporter,
kept asking questions.

1470
01:06:20,213 --> 01:06:23,684
I said to him, "Kenny,
why are you doing this?"

1471
01:06:23,784 --> 01:06:27,020
And he basically said,
I want to be extradited

1472
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:28,989
to Can-- to Canada.

1473
01:06:29,089 --> 01:06:30,857
My mother is
an elderly woman.

1474
01:06:30,957 --> 01:06:34,494
She can't live the rest
of her life in prison.

1475
01:06:34,594 --> 01:06:36,897
He held her there
on the floor for hours

1476
01:06:36,997 --> 01:06:39,933
while hostage negotiators
kept looking for an opening.

1477
01:06:40,033 --> 01:06:42,002
And Maria kept talking.

1478
01:06:42,102 --> 01:06:44,705
I finally said,
do you know how to pray?

1479
01:06:44,805 --> 01:06:46,206
And he said, yes.

1480
01:06:46,306 --> 01:06:48,842
And he actually was
very receptive to it.

1481
01:06:48,942 --> 01:06:50,510
I know I needed
some comfort.

1482
01:06:50,610 --> 01:06:53,513
So we said
the Lord's Prayer together.

1483
01:06:53,613 --> 01:06:55,882
There was
a hostage negotiator

1484
01:06:55,983 --> 01:06:58,418
that after
we prayed together,

1485
01:06:58,518 --> 01:07:00,120
he said to Kenny,

1486
01:07:00,220 --> 01:07:02,756
"Kenny, I'm gonna
try to help you."

1487
01:07:02,856 --> 01:07:04,124
Here is my business card.

1488
01:07:04,224 --> 01:07:05,626
And he pulled out
a business card

1489
01:07:05,726 --> 01:07:08,362
and he reached out
to Kenneth.

1490
01:07:08,462 --> 01:07:10,964
That was the distraction
the authorities needed.

1491
01:07:11,064 --> 01:07:13,200
The guards pounced.

1492
01:07:13,300 --> 01:07:15,869
They must have just
all jumped on him.

1493
01:07:15,969 --> 01:07:18,138
And I heard him
grunting and groaning,

1494
01:07:18,238 --> 01:07:20,374
and I didn't look back.

1495
01:07:20,474 --> 01:07:22,776
For his violent stunt,

1496
01:07:22,876 --> 01:07:25,612
Kenny got sent
to solitary confinement.

1497
01:07:25,712 --> 01:07:27,447
And years would pass

1498
01:07:27,547 --> 01:07:29,983
before he would see
his mother again.

1499
01:07:30,083 --> 01:07:32,953
A reunion
in an LA courtroom

1500
01:07:33,053 --> 01:07:36,590
where a chilling story
would come tumbling out.

1501
01:07:36,690 --> 01:07:38,725
I got her in the bathtub

1502
01:07:38,825 --> 01:07:41,628
and he had his hands
around her throat

1503
01:07:41,728 --> 01:07:44,898
and he said, I didn't know
how long to squeeze.

1504
01:07:55,509 --> 01:07:59,146
The Kimes were serving time
for killing Irene Silverman,

1505
01:07:59,246 --> 01:08:01,581
but the story was
far from over.

1506
01:08:03,150 --> 01:08:04,985
California was waiting
to try them

1507
01:08:05,085 --> 01:08:07,521
for the murder
of David Kazdin.

1508
01:08:07,621 --> 01:08:10,724
Mother and son face
the death penalty for that one.

1509
01:08:10,824 --> 01:08:12,526
They were extradited
to Los Angeles.

1510
01:08:12,626 --> 01:08:14,328
I went to see Kenny.

1511
01:08:14,428 --> 01:08:16,363
Kent urged
his little brother to play

1512
01:08:16,463 --> 01:08:18,265
Let's Make a Deal.

1513
01:08:18,365 --> 01:08:20,233
I was in Kenny's ear,
and I was telling him,

1514
01:08:20,334 --> 01:08:21,835
you're not gonna
win this one.

1515
01:08:21,935 --> 01:08:23,403
You got the death penalty.

1516
01:08:23,503 --> 01:08:25,072
Do not put me
in the position

1517
01:08:25,172 --> 01:08:28,608
where I have to explain
to your-your-- my kids

1518
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:29,910
that you've been executed.

1519
01:08:30,010 --> 01:08:31,445
Don't do that.

1520
01:08:31,545 --> 01:08:33,246
Advice Kenny took.

1521
01:08:33,347 --> 01:08:35,549
He agreed to plead guilty
if prosecutors

1522
01:08:35,649 --> 01:08:37,718
took the death penalty
off the table.

1523
01:08:37,818 --> 01:08:41,288
And not just for him,
but for his mother, too.

1524
01:08:41,388 --> 01:08:44,024
It was a no brainer
for LA.

1525
01:08:44,124 --> 01:08:47,094
We liked the deal,
the DA liked it.

1526
01:08:47,194 --> 01:08:50,597
Uh, so we made
a deal with Kenny.

1527
01:08:50,697 --> 01:08:54,301
Sante, however, wasn't
quite so flexible.

1528
01:08:54,401 --> 01:08:56,803
Confess?
Not a chance.

1529
01:08:56,903 --> 01:08:59,406
Not even when they
told her that her Kenny,

1530
01:08:59,506 --> 01:09:01,942
though few would have
imagined it possible,

1531
01:09:02,042 --> 01:09:06,046
was going to testify
against her.

1532
01:09:06,146 --> 01:09:09,016
It began in June 2004.

1533
01:09:09,116 --> 01:09:11,952
It was theatrics
from the start.

1534
01:09:12,052 --> 01:09:15,188
Sante was wheeled in
in a wheelchair.

1535
01:09:15,289 --> 01:09:17,257
This was for
dramatic effect,

1536
01:09:17,357 --> 01:09:19,493
which is
if you know Sante,

1537
01:09:19,593 --> 01:09:23,330
her-her life is
dramatic effect.

1538
01:09:23,430 --> 01:09:26,266
Defense investigator
CiCi McNair was there

1539
01:09:26,366 --> 01:09:28,435
when Kenny took the stand.

1540
01:09:28,535 --> 01:09:32,105
He then told the story
of murdering David Kazdin.

1541
01:09:32,205 --> 01:09:34,508
Sante was in front
in the wheelchair.

1542
01:09:34,608 --> 01:09:38,712
And you could hear
her sobbing, crying.

1543
01:09:38,812 --> 01:09:42,549
As Kenny spoke,
a lifetime of loyalty died.

1544
01:09:43,951 --> 01:09:48,088
He told the jury it was Sante
who decided Kazdin had to go

1545
01:09:48,188 --> 01:09:51,024
because Kazdin got wise
to their scams.

1546
01:09:51,124 --> 01:09:54,394
Sante who ordered
him, Kenny, to do it.

1547
01:09:54,494 --> 01:09:56,196
And so, of course,
Kenny went,

1548
01:09:56,296 --> 01:09:57,597
and took his pistol
when he presented

1549
01:09:57,698 --> 01:10:00,300
his smiling face
at Kazdin's door.

1550
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,036
He recognized Kenny,
and so he let Kenny in.

1551
01:10:03,136 --> 01:10:05,238
So Kenny walked in
and I think Mr. Kazdin

1552
01:10:05,339 --> 01:10:07,708
offered him
some coffee or something.

1553
01:10:07,808 --> 01:10:11,378
And, uh, when Mr. Kazdin
turned around in the kitchen,

1554
01:10:11,478 --> 01:10:13,447
that's when Kenny
took the gun

1555
01:10:13,547 --> 01:10:15,749
and shot him
in the back of the head.

1556
01:10:15,849 --> 01:10:17,985
And then he heaved
Kazdin's body

1557
01:10:18,085 --> 01:10:20,787
into that dumpster
by the airport.

1558
01:10:20,887 --> 01:10:22,122
And...

1559
01:10:22,222 --> 01:10:24,324
Then on the way home
to see Mom,

1560
01:10:24,424 --> 01:10:25,459
Kenny stopped and bought

1561
01:10:25,559 --> 01:10:28,128
a hundred dollar bouquet
of flowers to give to her

1562
01:10:28,228 --> 01:10:31,965
to celebrate
the job accomplished.

1563
01:10:33,166 --> 01:10:36,670
Kind of a window into
how sick their minds were.

1564
01:10:36,770 --> 01:10:38,939
Oh, but there was more.

1565
01:10:39,039 --> 01:10:41,808
Kenny described exactly
how he and his mother

1566
01:10:41,908 --> 01:10:44,478
murdered Irene Silverman.

1567
01:10:44,578 --> 01:10:47,214
His mother came in
to Irene's bedroom,

1568
01:10:47,314 --> 01:10:49,282
turned on the television.

1569
01:10:49,383 --> 01:10:52,019
They hit her
with a stun gun.

1570
01:10:52,119 --> 01:10:54,655
They got her in the bathtub

1571
01:10:54,755 --> 01:10:58,792
and he had his hands
around her throat.

1572
01:10:58,892 --> 01:11:02,996
And he said, I didn't know
how long to squeeze.

1573
01:11:03,096 --> 01:11:05,866
After, said Kenny,
he put Irene's body

1574
01:11:05,966 --> 01:11:08,035
in the trunk of
that stolen Lincoln

1575
01:11:08,135 --> 01:11:09,569
and dumped it
in a trash bin

1576
01:11:09,670 --> 01:11:11,638
in Hoboken, New Jersey,

1577
01:11:11,738 --> 01:11:14,908
and drove back to Manhattan
just in time to be

1578
01:11:15,008 --> 01:11:17,411
arrested with his mother.

1579
01:11:17,511 --> 01:11:19,312
It was horrifying
to hear.

1580
01:11:19,413 --> 01:11:22,149
I was viscerally affected

1581
01:11:22,249 --> 01:11:25,152
by... this description.

1582
01:11:26,453 --> 01:11:29,823
And Kenny had
one more story to tell.

1583
01:11:29,923 --> 01:11:32,526
This one about that
missing banker in the Bahamas,

1584
01:11:32,626 --> 01:11:34,061
Syed Ahmed.

1585
01:11:34,161 --> 01:11:37,297
Last seen having dinner
with Kenny and Sante,

1586
01:11:37,397 --> 01:11:39,800
last meal of his life.

1587
01:11:39,900 --> 01:11:41,301
They spiked his drink.

1588
01:11:41,401 --> 01:11:43,103
They had already
filled the bathtub

1589
01:11:43,203 --> 01:11:45,605
because they knew they
were gonna drown him.

1590
01:11:45,706 --> 01:11:48,942
And when he
passed out from drinking,

1591
01:11:49,042 --> 01:11:52,179
Kenny takes him
into the tub.

1592
01:11:52,279 --> 01:11:54,281
But he says,
as soon as I put

1593
01:11:54,381 --> 01:11:56,416
his head underwater
and held him,

1594
01:11:56,516 --> 01:11:57,851
he said the fight was on.

1595
01:11:57,951 --> 01:11:59,086
Mmm!

1596
01:11:59,186 --> 01:12:01,121
He said, that guy was
stronger than what I thought.

1597
01:12:01,221 --> 01:12:02,990
- Yeah.
- It was a bigger battle

1598
01:12:03,090 --> 01:12:04,658
than I thought.

1599
01:12:04,758 --> 01:12:08,261
But eventually he was
able to drown him.

1600
01:12:08,362 --> 01:12:10,397
God, you can just
imagine that scene, huh?

1601
01:12:10,497 --> 01:12:12,332
I know, I know.

1602
01:12:12,432 --> 01:12:15,736
So was he sorry
for his crimes?

1603
01:12:15,836 --> 01:12:18,338
Is that why he offered
his confession?

1604
01:12:18,438 --> 01:12:20,941
Kenny's brother
didn't think so.

1605
01:12:21,041 --> 01:12:23,343
His confession was
not exoneration.

1606
01:12:23,443 --> 01:12:25,045
It was purely self-serving.

1607
01:12:25,145 --> 01:12:28,415
It was, you know,
best he can do at the time.

1608
01:12:28,515 --> 01:12:29,916
Sante was convicted

1609
01:12:30,017 --> 01:12:32,386
and sentenced
to life without parole

1610
01:12:32,486 --> 01:12:35,455
and installed in New York's
Bedford Hills Prison,

1611
01:12:35,555 --> 01:12:37,991
there to spend
the rest of her days,

1612
01:12:38,091 --> 01:12:41,228
though not quietly.

1613
01:12:41,328 --> 01:12:42,796
I went up to see her,

1614
01:12:42,896 --> 01:12:45,132
and you would think
she would claim that

1615
01:12:45,232 --> 01:12:48,502
her son had turned
against her by confessing.

1616
01:12:48,602 --> 01:12:50,270
And instead of that,

1617
01:12:50,370 --> 01:12:54,408
she said, Kenny
saved my life.

1618
01:12:54,508 --> 01:12:56,009
He saved my life.

1619
01:12:56,109 --> 01:12:58,779
But we didn't do it.

1620
01:12:58,879 --> 01:13:01,114
This is the greatest
miscarriage of justice

1621
01:13:01,214 --> 01:13:03,350
in American history.

1622
01:13:03,450 --> 01:13:05,652
Defiant as usual.

1623
01:13:05,752 --> 01:13:07,387
But for
the victims families,

1624
01:13:07,487 --> 01:13:09,990
at least the not knowing
was over.

1625
01:13:10,090 --> 01:13:12,826
Except not quite.

1626
01:13:12,926 --> 01:13:14,928
There is one more story.

1627
01:13:15,028 --> 01:13:18,231
This one happened back when
Kenny Jr. was still a teenager,

1628
01:13:18,332 --> 01:13:20,233
and not yet a killer.

1629
01:13:20,334 --> 01:13:23,570
It's the story about
that other son named Ken

1630
01:13:23,670 --> 01:13:26,306
and his father Elmer.

1631
01:13:26,406 --> 01:13:30,677
I think he just got
caught up in a situation

1632
01:13:30,777 --> 01:13:32,979
he didn't know
how to get out of.

1633
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,216
Elmer Holmgren,
the down on his luck lawyer

1634
01:13:36,316 --> 01:13:37,751
Sante somehow persuaded

1635
01:13:37,851 --> 01:13:40,354
to burn her house down
in Hawaii

1636
01:13:40,454 --> 01:13:42,556
for the insurance of course.

1637
01:13:42,656 --> 01:13:44,658
Except the Feds
got wind of it

1638
01:13:44,758 --> 01:13:49,262
and Holmgren decided
to cooperate, wear a wire.

1639
01:13:49,363 --> 01:13:52,799
He was working with
the ATF, you know,

1640
01:13:52,899 --> 01:13:56,737
to implicate
the Kimes on this.

1641
01:13:56,837 --> 01:13:59,373
But then,
Ken Holmgren is sure,

1642
01:13:59,473 --> 01:14:03,310
Sante and Kenneth Sr.
found out,

1643
01:14:03,410 --> 01:14:07,247
and they took Elmer on
a little holiday to Costa Rica.

1644
01:14:07,347 --> 01:14:09,416
He was never seen again.

1645
01:14:09,516 --> 01:14:14,121
My father was gone,
and I mean mysteriously gone.

1646
01:14:14,221 --> 01:14:16,890
Murdered, his son believes.

1647
01:14:16,990 --> 01:14:19,726
So there was never a trial,
there was never a charge,

1648
01:14:19,826 --> 01:14:21,762
there was never
anything having to do

1649
01:14:21,862 --> 01:14:23,964
with your dad.

1650
01:14:24,064 --> 01:14:26,033
Does that matter
to you a lot?

1651
01:14:26,133 --> 01:14:28,168
It did at the time.

1652
01:14:28,268 --> 01:14:31,104
You know, the ATF agent said,
well, they're gonna be

1653
01:14:31,204 --> 01:14:33,707
in prison for
the rest of their lives.

1654
01:14:33,807 --> 01:14:35,742
What difference
does it make?

1655
01:14:35,842 --> 01:14:38,512
Well, it made
a difference to me

1656
01:14:38,612 --> 01:14:40,647
and it made a difference
to the family too.

1657
01:14:40,747 --> 01:14:44,017
Sure, Elmer Holgren's name
would have been there

1658
01:14:44,117 --> 01:14:46,853
as somebody whose death

1659
01:14:46,954 --> 01:14:50,857
had been... accounted for

1660
01:14:50,957 --> 01:14:52,693
and some kind of
justice done.

1661
01:14:52,793 --> 01:14:56,930
Correct, yes.

1662
01:14:57,030 --> 01:14:58,165
Justice.

1663
01:14:58,265 --> 01:15:00,367
Kenny Kimes has had
more than two decades in prison

1664
01:15:00,467 --> 01:15:02,135
to reflect on that,

1665
01:15:02,235 --> 01:15:05,539
and to make sense of
the broken life and love

1666
01:15:05,639 --> 01:15:07,874
he shared with his mother.

1667
01:15:07,974 --> 01:15:09,910
I find that very interesting
actually, Kenny,

1668
01:15:10,010 --> 01:15:14,848
that-that you can say
you love your mother,

1669
01:15:14,948 --> 01:15:16,917
uh, that you--
- I love--

1670
01:15:17,017 --> 01:15:19,119
I love
my mom and dad forever.

1671
01:15:19,219 --> 01:15:23,690
And now in his first
TV interview in decades,

1672
01:15:23,790 --> 01:15:26,426
he's going to try
to explain.

1673
01:15:37,070 --> 01:15:39,773
Even in prison,
Sante Kimes could seem

1674
01:15:39,873 --> 01:15:43,343
glamorous and terrifying.

1675
01:15:43,443 --> 01:15:45,879
I feared for my life.

1676
01:15:45,979 --> 01:15:48,615
- For a long time?
- For years.

1677
01:15:48,715 --> 01:15:51,184
Rhonda Martin,
Kent's high school girlfriend,

1678
01:15:51,285 --> 01:15:54,955
finally got the new
with everyone else in 2014.

1679
01:15:55,055 --> 01:15:59,726
After 16 years behind bars,
Sante Kimes died.

1680
01:16:01,194 --> 01:16:03,063
Are you
more comfortable now?

1681
01:16:03,163 --> 01:16:05,198
Yes, because she's dead.
[chuckles]

1682
01:16:05,299 --> 01:16:07,901
Wow, that's saying
something, isn't it?

1683
01:16:08,001 --> 01:16:11,071
A woman who charmed
and harmed,

1684
01:16:11,171 --> 01:16:13,640
whose death, even for
the son who ran from her

1685
01:16:13,740 --> 01:16:15,742
all those years ago,

1686
01:16:15,842 --> 01:16:18,312
was very, very hard.

1687
01:16:18,412 --> 01:16:22,316
I knew I was
the only person on this planet

1688
01:16:22,416 --> 01:16:24,618
that would feel
pain from it

1689
01:16:24,718 --> 01:16:26,553
and no one else
could understand why.

1690
01:16:29,656 --> 01:16:33,060
And, you know,

1691
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:35,395
one thing I'll
never apologize for

1692
01:16:35,495 --> 01:16:37,531
is loving my mother.

1693
01:16:37,631 --> 01:16:39,666
Though there is Kenny.

1694
01:16:39,766 --> 01:16:44,137
So Kent is not
the only son to feel the pain.

1695
01:16:44,237 --> 01:16:46,006
I still carry a lot
of guilt with Kenny.

1696
01:16:46,106 --> 01:16:47,507
I-I mean, it's
my biggest regret

1697
01:16:47,607 --> 01:16:49,810
not trying harder
to-to pull him from that grasp.

1698
01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:51,678
But, um, I was outmatched.

1699
01:16:51,778 --> 01:16:53,680
Mom's stronger than me
in that department.

1700
01:16:55,048 --> 01:16:57,351
The R.J. Donovan
Correctional Facility,

1701
01:16:57,451 --> 01:16:59,519
San Diego, California.

1702
01:16:59,620 --> 01:17:01,955
Today, Kenny Kimes
is a middle aged man

1703
01:17:02,055 --> 01:17:04,491
serving his time
in a prison in San Diego.

1704
01:17:04,591 --> 01:17:05,559
Hello, good morning.

1705
01:17:05,659 --> 01:17:07,527
He agreed to speak
with us on the phone,

1706
01:17:07,628 --> 01:17:10,497
which is what the California
prison system allows.

1707
01:17:10,597 --> 01:17:12,432
This would be
his first recorded interview

1708
01:17:12,532 --> 01:17:15,335
since the day he took
that Court TV reporter hostage

1709
01:17:15,435 --> 01:17:17,571
a quarter century ago.

1710
01:17:17,671 --> 01:17:20,674
And it was a much different
Kenny this time.

1711
01:17:20,774 --> 01:17:22,976
The first thing
I want to say is

1712
01:17:23,076 --> 01:17:26,880
that I absolutely
regret my past

1713
01:17:26,980 --> 01:17:29,750
and the ignorance
of my past crimes.

1714
01:17:29,850 --> 01:17:32,452
Uh, it makes me
want to do better

1715
01:17:32,552 --> 01:17:36,156
and makes me want to
engage in what I would call

1716
01:17:36,256 --> 01:17:38,258
tangible contrition.

1717
01:17:38,358 --> 01:17:40,861
This was his reason
for talking to us,

1718
01:17:40,961 --> 01:17:43,330
to tell us he had
come up with,

1719
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:46,099
on his own, a grand idea.

1720
01:17:46,100 --> 01:17:48,902
If I can prove

1721
01:17:49,002 --> 01:17:52,072
the ability to raise
a million or more

1722
01:17:52,172 --> 01:17:55,442
for San Diego Unified
for education,

1723
01:17:55,542 --> 01:17:59,946
could I do
basic military training on film

1724
01:18:00,047 --> 01:18:02,316
while in custody?

1725
01:18:02,416 --> 01:18:06,887
This could help teachers, kids,
the military and prisoners.

1726
01:18:06,987 --> 01:18:09,456
That-that's what
I'd like to do.

1727
01:18:09,556 --> 01:18:11,792
Just how did
this convicted killer plan

1728
01:18:11,892 --> 01:18:14,895
to raise a million
while in prison for life?

1729
01:18:14,995 --> 01:18:18,665
Well, he isn't exactly
sure about that, he said.

1730
01:18:18,765 --> 01:18:21,268
It was that
kind of conversation,

1731
01:18:21,368 --> 01:18:26,239
friendly with some kind of
limit, we sensed, coming soon.

1732
01:18:26,340 --> 01:18:28,875
Is there anything that
you would like to say now

1733
01:18:28,976 --> 01:18:30,477
to the families
of those people,

1734
01:18:30,577 --> 01:18:33,113
to the survivors
of those people

1735
01:18:33,213 --> 01:18:35,215
that would be--
- I'm sorry.

1736
01:18:35,315 --> 01:18:38,952
100%.
100%, I'm sorry.

1737
01:18:39,052 --> 01:18:42,222
My answer is I am sorry,
and I was an idiot.

1738
01:18:42,322 --> 01:18:45,025
And my ignorance
I'm ashamed of.

1739
01:18:45,125 --> 01:18:48,295
Mind you, he said it was
his mother who did it,

1740
01:18:48,395 --> 01:18:50,230
who made him a killer.

1741
01:18:50,330 --> 01:18:51,631
There was a--

1742
01:18:51,732 --> 01:18:54,301
There's was a lot of chaos
in that youth, uh, Keith.

1743
01:18:54,401 --> 01:18:56,336
- Yeah.
- And when-when you...

1744
01:18:56,436 --> 01:19:00,474
live an isolated life,
and-and-and I was isolated,

1745
01:19:00,574 --> 01:19:02,542
I only saw
one road forward.

1746
01:19:02,643 --> 01:19:06,446
And I-I-I didn't have
a support system.

1747
01:19:06,546 --> 01:19:08,849
I didn't have
an escape valve.

1748
01:19:08,949 --> 01:19:11,318
So her fault?

1749
01:19:11,418 --> 01:19:15,122
Well, yes, and yet...

1750
01:19:15,222 --> 01:19:16,690
I-I love my parents,

1751
01:19:16,790 --> 01:19:19,092
but there's a lot
of complexity there.

1752
01:19:19,192 --> 01:19:21,094
I find that very interesting,
actually, Kenny,

1753
01:19:21,194 --> 01:19:26,299
that-that you can say
you love your mother,

1754
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:29,436
uh, that you--
- I love-I love my mom and dad.

1755
01:19:29,536 --> 01:19:31,071
Forever, before God,
I love my mom and dad.

1756
01:19:31,171 --> 01:19:34,875
Yeah, and-and-and have
those positive feelings

1757
01:19:34,975 --> 01:19:36,777
toward them,
even though your mother

1758
01:19:36,877 --> 01:19:40,747
was the one who instructed
you to, uh, kill people.

1759
01:19:40,847 --> 01:19:43,950
I mean, it's-it's, um--

1760
01:19:44,051 --> 01:19:46,820
it's-it's something for people
to wrap their heads around.

1761
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:49,456
Uh, I'd like to wrap
my head around it.

1762
01:19:49,556 --> 01:19:53,293
I-- Your perspective
and my perspective

1763
01:19:53,393 --> 01:19:55,062
and anyone's perspective--
- Uh-huh.

1764
01:19:55,162 --> 01:19:58,465
...is the culmination
of-of their existence.

1765
01:19:58,565 --> 01:20:01,034
And-and I choose
to not focus

1766
01:20:01,134 --> 01:20:03,804
on the negative elements
of my parents.

1767
01:20:03,904 --> 01:20:08,308
And that's-- that is
just what-what feels right

1768
01:20:08,408 --> 01:20:10,577
and appropriate
to me, Keith.

1769
01:20:10,677 --> 01:20:13,347
Still friendly,
but his mood

1770
01:20:13,447 --> 01:20:15,415
seemed to have changed.

1771
01:20:15,515 --> 01:20:19,619
When your mother died,
was that very difficult for you?

1772
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:21,154
It hurt like hell.

1773
01:20:21,254 --> 01:20:24,091
It hurt.
And-and, uh--

1774
01:20:28,662 --> 01:20:31,665
There's just nothing I can
do about it but pray.

1775
01:20:31,765 --> 01:20:34,801
He was baptized a Catholic
in prison, he told us.

1776
01:20:34,901 --> 01:20:37,304
Then I probed a little more
about his mother,

1777
01:20:37,404 --> 01:20:38,839
rather gently,

1778
01:20:38,939 --> 01:20:41,808
and the conversation
grew strained.

1779
01:20:41,908 --> 01:20:43,977
Well, I was just curious
to know if-if your mother,

1780
01:20:44,077 --> 01:20:48,315
like you, um, uh, came
to regret her crimes

1781
01:20:48,415 --> 01:20:51,218
and-and-and, uh, tried
to achieve her own

1782
01:20:51,318 --> 01:20:52,386
kind of redemption

1783
01:20:52,486 --> 01:20:54,921
or whether she was just,
you know, Sante all the way

1784
01:20:55,022 --> 01:20:56,623
along to the end.

1785
01:20:58,325 --> 01:20:59,660
- I don't know.
- Don't know?

1786
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:01,828
I-I don't know, Keith.
I'm-I'm sorry.

1787
01:21:01,928 --> 01:21:03,397
Yeah, there was no--
they-they cut off all--

1788
01:21:03,497 --> 01:21:04,464
- Can I take--?
- Yeah?

1789
01:21:04,564 --> 01:21:06,299
Could-could we take--

1790
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:08,702
Keith, could we take
a little break real quick?

1791
01:21:08,802 --> 01:21:10,671
Yeah, yeah.

1792
01:21:10,771 --> 01:21:12,873
And that was that.

1793
01:21:12,973 --> 01:21:14,608
But as we tried
to understand why

1794
01:21:14,708 --> 01:21:17,244
that would be
a trigger for a hang up,

1795
01:21:17,344 --> 01:21:19,746
Kenny called back
to tell me

1796
01:21:19,846 --> 01:21:22,816
he didn't want to talk
about his mother anymore.

1797
01:21:22,916 --> 01:21:24,251
I-I don't want to go

1798
01:21:24,351 --> 01:21:27,521
into my-my family
in-in a media venue.

1799
01:21:27,621 --> 01:21:29,289
I'm gonna keep
my laundry to myself.

1800
01:21:29,389 --> 01:21:30,557
All right.

1801
01:21:30,657 --> 01:21:34,328
I, uh, maybe in the future,
we could talk about

1802
01:21:34,428 --> 01:21:37,130
more rehabilitative elements
and so forth,

1803
01:21:37,230 --> 01:21:40,267
and I-and I-I hope
that could happen.

1804
01:21:40,367 --> 01:21:43,170
By which he meant his pitch
to raise a million dollars

1805
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:47,107
for education,
his "tangible contrition".

1806
01:21:47,207 --> 01:21:49,810
I think that maybe
I can pay for my crimes

1807
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:52,212
by supporting education.

1808
01:21:52,312 --> 01:21:55,282
But there is one more
bit of family laundry,

1809
01:21:55,382 --> 01:21:58,285
and it is still unwashed.

1810
01:21:58,385 --> 01:22:01,521
Your brother, Kent,

1811
01:22:01,621 --> 01:22:04,458
the last time I talked
to him, he-he talked about

1812
01:22:04,558 --> 01:22:07,828
how he regrets
not being able

1813
01:22:07,928 --> 01:22:11,365
to help rescue you
from that situation.

1814
01:22:12,799 --> 01:22:15,168
Is that something
that bothers you, too?

1815
01:22:16,069 --> 01:22:17,838
I-I-I wish Kent well.

1816
01:22:17,938 --> 01:22:20,874
I just-- I wish he would
have done a little more.

1817
01:22:20,974 --> 01:22:22,976
In the Kimes family saga,

1818
01:22:23,076 --> 01:22:25,379
the what ifs
seem never ending.

1819
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:27,180
As do the questions.

1820
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:30,651
But after 35 years,
Elmer Holmgren's son

1821
01:22:30,751 --> 01:22:32,819
finally learned some truth.

1822
01:22:32,919 --> 01:22:35,155
This past January,
three cold case detectives

1823
01:22:35,255 --> 01:22:37,557
showed up at
Ken Holmgren's door,

1824
01:22:37,658 --> 01:22:40,060
autopsy photos in hand.

1825
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:42,929
It was a definite.
That was my dad.

1826
01:22:43,030 --> 01:22:45,432
Elmer's body was found
not in Costa Rica,

1827
01:22:45,532 --> 01:22:50,070
as Ken had long believed,
but in a dumpster near LAX,

1828
01:22:50,170 --> 01:22:52,205
Just like David Kazdin.

1829
01:22:52,305 --> 01:22:55,375
Elmer's body had been
unidentified for decades.

1830
01:22:55,475 --> 01:22:59,079
He was found on
February 19th, 1991,

1831
01:22:59,179 --> 01:23:03,583
maybe four or five days
after I talked to him last.

1832
01:23:03,684 --> 01:23:05,452
Now, all these years later,

1833
01:23:05,552 --> 01:23:08,622
genetic genealogy led
investigators to Ken.

1834
01:23:08,722 --> 01:23:11,758
They told him his dad's killer
was probably a woman

1835
01:23:11,858 --> 01:23:14,227
and very likely
Sante herself.

1836
01:23:14,328 --> 01:23:16,663
Even the coroner
didn't think it was a man

1837
01:23:16,763 --> 01:23:18,131
landing those blows.

1838
01:23:18,231 --> 01:23:19,733
They felt a man
would have inflicted

1839
01:23:19,833 --> 01:23:21,301
a lot deeper wounds.

1840
01:23:21,401 --> 01:23:23,870
And though they're
still investigating,

1841
01:23:23,970 --> 01:23:27,507
it feels like
a resolution to Ken.

1842
01:23:27,607 --> 01:23:30,544
There's a lot of times
over 35 years

1843
01:23:30,644 --> 01:23:32,479
where you just, you know,

1844
01:23:32,579 --> 01:23:35,716
your mind kind of
runs wild.

1845
01:23:35,816 --> 01:23:38,785
It's nice to be able
to put it to rest.

1846
01:23:38,885 --> 01:23:42,155
But Kent can't ever
put it all to rest,

1847
01:23:42,255 --> 01:23:45,425
not completely,
though he is trying.

1848
01:23:45,525 --> 01:23:49,429
Kent told us he doesn't
visit Kenny often.

1849
01:23:49,529 --> 01:23:51,999
Not sure he wants to
anytime soon,

1850
01:23:52,099 --> 01:23:54,234
because for one thing,

1851
01:23:54,334 --> 01:23:56,670
that contrition
Kenny talked about,

1852
01:23:56,770 --> 01:23:58,839
Kent is a skeptic.

1853
01:23:58,939 --> 01:24:02,643
I still don't believe
he has regret for what he did,

1854
01:24:02,743 --> 01:24:05,979
which is hard for me.

1855
01:24:06,079 --> 01:24:08,615
The sons of Sante Kimes,

1856
01:24:08,715 --> 01:24:11,952
that magnetic
criminal homicidal mother,

1857
01:24:12,052 --> 01:24:16,957
that tireless teacher of
grift and chaos and violence,

1858
01:24:17,057 --> 01:24:21,061
one who killed for her,
locked up for a lifetime.

1859
01:24:21,161 --> 01:24:24,498
The other focused
on gratitude

1860
01:24:24,598 --> 01:24:26,767
for escaping
her lethal orbit

1861
01:24:26,867 --> 01:24:31,772
to find a life that's full
and a little more boring.

1862
01:24:31,872 --> 01:24:35,475
You know, life among the cons
is a lot more exciting

1863
01:24:35,575 --> 01:24:37,611
than life among the marks.

1864
01:24:37,711 --> 01:24:40,847
And I'm looking back now,
25 years later.

1865
01:24:40,947 --> 01:24:44,251
Um, it feels good to be
bored once in a while.

1866
01:24:44,351 --> 01:24:46,320
It-it-it's okay, you know.

1867
01:24:46,420 --> 01:24:47,721
It's a normal
state of things.

1868
01:24:47,821 --> 01:24:49,790
Yeah, I-I didn't know
what normal was.

1869
01:24:49,890 --> 01:24:50,891
Yeah.

1870
01:24:50,991 --> 01:24:53,026
My normal was different
than everyone else's.

1871
01:24:53,126 --> 01:24:55,963
Um, I like it this way
a lot better.

1872
01:24:56,063 --> 01:24:59,666
{\an8}That's all for this edition of
"Dateline: Secrets Uncovered".

1873
01:24:59,766 --> 01:25:02,135
{\an8}I'm Craig Melvin.
Thank you for watching.