1 00:00:15,850 --> 00:00:17,066 Mrs. Ruth Paine, 2 00:00:17,091 --> 00:00:20,041 probably knew the Lee Harvey Oswald family better 3 00:00:20,066 --> 00:00:21,981 than anybody living today. 4 00:00:23,373 --> 00:00:26,062 The fact that you sheltered the family 5 00:00:26,063 --> 00:00:29,463 of the accused assassin of a United States president, 6 00:00:29,489 --> 00:00:31,452 has this bothered you in any way? 7 00:00:32,683 --> 00:00:35,266 Has this changed your own personal life very much? 8 00:00:36,537 --> 00:00:39,016 Do you feel there is a lesson to be learned here 9 00:00:39,041 --> 00:00:41,121 out of the tragic events which have happened? 10 00:00:41,336 --> 00:00:42,561 And if so, what? 11 00:00:46,595 --> 00:00:47,915 In a downtown building, 12 00:00:47,976 --> 00:00:50,396 a gunman waits at a sixth-floor window, 13 00:00:50,421 --> 00:00:52,443 a high-powered rifle by his side. 14 00:00:54,353 --> 00:00:56,273 Ruth and Michael Paine are do-gooders 15 00:00:56,298 --> 00:00:58,178 whom nobody would've ever heard of 16 00:00:58,203 --> 00:00:59,852 if it hadn't been for the accident 17 00:00:59,853 --> 00:01:02,542 that one of the people they helped out in life 18 00:01:02,543 --> 00:01:03,873 was Lee Harvey Oswald. 19 00:01:04,274 --> 00:01:05,554 I would say they were two 20 00:01:05,579 --> 00:01:07,912 of the most innocent people I ever met. 21 00:01:08,843 --> 00:01:12,638 Ruth was completely candid with the FBI. 22 00:01:13,033 --> 00:01:14,927 I think most of the time she's telling the truth, 23 00:01:14,951 --> 00:01:16,620 but I think there are certain soft spots 24 00:01:16,643 --> 00:01:18,893 where she's lying because she has to. 25 00:01:20,393 --> 00:01:22,512 If you would really examine the Paines, 26 00:01:22,513 --> 00:01:25,152 who they really are, what they really did, 27 00:01:25,153 --> 00:01:28,512 you might find one of the real keys to the Kennedy case. 28 00:01:31,009 --> 00:01:34,577 - I will always have terrible, "if only", feelings 29 00:01:34,763 --> 00:01:36,572 along with many Secret Service men 30 00:01:36,573 --> 00:01:39,772 and many people of the nation, 31 00:01:39,773 --> 00:01:42,723 anyone who's ever had any contact with these people. 32 00:01:42,748 --> 00:01:44,826 Say, if only I had done something. 33 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,648 I probably should start with Thursday night, 34 00:01:55,673 --> 00:01:58,862 or with the-I mean, with the night before. 35 00:02:00,753 --> 00:02:03,993 I first became aware of Ruth Paine in 2008 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,415 after reading a popular new book on the JFK assassination. 37 00:02:08,872 --> 00:02:11,741 I was surprised to find that this liberal Quaker woman 38 00:02:12,133 --> 00:02:15,266 was suspected of playing a role in the assassination plot. 39 00:02:16,108 --> 00:02:19,168 I was even more surprised to find that she was still living, 40 00:02:19,193 --> 00:02:21,282 just 50 miles north of me, 41 00:02:21,283 --> 00:02:23,661 and that she agreed to be interviewed for my film. 42 00:02:26,925 --> 00:02:28,205 - Maybe when you went to school. 43 00:02:30,944 --> 00:02:34,308 This is all very, very close to me. 44 00:02:34,333 --> 00:02:35,516 I was there. 45 00:02:36,641 --> 00:02:38,885 Of course, my life turned upside down. 46 00:02:45,462 --> 00:02:49,278 I met Lee and Marina Oswald at a party in Dallas 47 00:02:49,303 --> 00:02:51,792 in February of 1963, 48 00:02:51,793 --> 00:02:54,465 so it was less than a year that I knew 'em. 49 00:02:55,713 --> 00:02:56,919 I was interested in knowing her 50 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:00,172 simply because she was Russian and spoke the language well. 51 00:03:00,173 --> 00:03:02,622 I've been trying to learn it, and of course the best way 52 00:03:02,623 --> 00:03:04,473 is to speak with someone who does know it. 53 00:03:05,313 --> 00:03:07,962 She was expecting a child 54 00:03:07,963 --> 00:03:10,094 and was worried about the marriage. 55 00:03:10,609 --> 00:03:14,059 So, we talked as women, and at that point I was separated 56 00:03:14,070 --> 00:03:17,550 from Michael, so we were both having difficulty 57 00:03:17,575 --> 00:03:18,678 with our marriages. 58 00:03:20,327 --> 00:03:22,397 I said, well, why don't you come and stay with me, 59 00:03:22,422 --> 00:03:23,851 at least until the baby's born? 60 00:03:25,165 --> 00:03:27,595 Oswald just came out some weekends. 61 00:03:27,620 --> 00:03:29,240 He did not live at my house. 62 00:03:29,265 --> 00:03:30,908 He was not invited to. 63 00:03:31,046 --> 00:03:32,228 A very small house. 64 00:03:42,343 --> 00:03:44,822 - President John F. - Kennedy departed Washington 65 00:03:44,823 --> 00:03:48,566 on Thursday morning, November 21st, 1963. 66 00:03:49,978 --> 00:03:52,498 On Saturday morning, November 23rd, 67 00:03:52,523 --> 00:03:54,706 his body was returned to the White House. 68 00:03:55,811 --> 00:03:58,262 - Oswald usually came out for the weekend 69 00:03:58,323 --> 00:04:02,543 to visit with his family and we'd have meals together. 70 00:04:02,568 --> 00:04:07,645 But on Thursday the 21st, he came up in the late-afternoon. 71 00:04:07,665 --> 00:04:10,418 And as we crossed paths, I said 72 00:04:12,754 --> 00:04:14,947 which means, our president is coming. 73 00:04:15,563 --> 00:04:17,183 And he just sorta brushed by. 74 00:04:17,843 --> 00:04:19,528 He went to bed very early. 75 00:04:19,761 --> 00:04:21,771 I didn't see him that morning. 76 00:04:21,863 --> 00:04:23,883 He was already gone when I got up. 77 00:04:24,173 --> 00:04:26,852 And then I went off to the dentist, 78 00:04:26,853 --> 00:04:28,879 but I left the TV on for Marina. 79 00:04:29,140 --> 00:04:32,442 And when I got back, it was like 11 something. 80 00:04:32,443 --> 00:04:35,995 We both just sat and watched TV, prepared some lunch. 81 00:04:38,863 --> 00:04:43,292 One of the newsmen said he saw a little cloud 82 00:04:43,317 --> 00:04:46,786 of something pink coming up from the president's head. 83 00:04:51,459 --> 00:04:53,526 There's numerous people running up the hill. 84 00:04:53,551 --> 00:04:54,602 - She said to me, 85 00:04:54,629 --> 00:04:57,412 "What a terrible thing this is for Mrs. Kennedy, 86 00:04:58,203 --> 00:04:59,613 and how sad that now the children 87 00:04:59,634 --> 00:05:01,355 will have to grow up without a father." 88 00:05:01,738 --> 00:05:03,955 I was crying and she was very upset. 89 00:05:04,347 --> 00:05:05,724 Indeed, this was our condition 90 00:05:05,733 --> 00:05:10,075 when the men came from the police department in Dallas 91 00:05:10,076 --> 00:05:12,472 and that was the first that we had any indication 92 00:05:12,473 --> 00:05:16,756 that her husband was associated with this tragic event. 93 00:05:18,361 --> 00:05:21,180 They wanted to know if he had a gun. 94 00:05:21,781 --> 00:05:25,851 And foolishly, I said no 'cause that's what I thought 95 00:05:25,868 --> 00:05:30,072 and translated to Marina, who said, "Yes, he had a gun." 96 00:05:30,513 --> 00:05:33,576 And she led the officers to the garage, 97 00:05:33,601 --> 00:05:36,701 and there on the floor was a blanket roll. 98 00:05:36,733 --> 00:05:39,542 She had seen the gun in the blanket roll. 99 00:05:39,543 --> 00:05:40,832 One officer picked it up 100 00:05:40,833 --> 00:05:44,682 and it was so empty it just folded over his arm, 101 00:05:44,683 --> 00:05:46,906 clearly it didn't have a gun in it. 102 00:05:47,855 --> 00:05:49,436 I was just so shocked. 103 00:05:57,776 --> 00:06:00,905 Mrs. Paine, you are obviously an intelligent person 104 00:06:00,944 --> 00:06:04,244 and well read, apparently. 105 00:06:04,374 --> 00:06:08,053 Do you believe, for example, that there was any conspiracy, 106 00:06:08,078 --> 00:06:10,608 international communist conspiracy involved in this? 107 00:06:10,747 --> 00:06:12,643 - No, I think there certainly was not. 108 00:06:16,556 --> 00:06:19,283 - Kennedy was elected at the height of the Cold War. 109 00:06:19,423 --> 00:06:21,572 Like most politicians of his day, 110 00:06:21,573 --> 00:06:24,302 JFK talked tough on communism, 111 00:06:24,303 --> 00:06:25,782 but his support for civil rights 112 00:06:25,783 --> 00:06:28,402 and international dialogue earned him hatred 113 00:06:28,403 --> 00:06:31,392 from many right wing corners of the country. 114 00:06:31,393 --> 00:06:34,372 Kennedy inherited an escalating involvement in Vietnam 115 00:06:34,373 --> 00:06:36,704 that went back to the Truman administration. 116 00:06:37,193 --> 00:06:40,668 Cuba, after Fidel Castro's socialist revolution, 117 00:06:40,693 --> 00:06:43,115 was becoming a new battleground in the Cold War. 118 00:06:43,803 --> 00:06:45,942 The Red Scare was in full effect, 119 00:06:45,943 --> 00:06:49,272 with many war hawks actively planning for a nuclear showdown 120 00:06:49,273 --> 00:06:50,402 with the Soviet Union. 121 00:06:53,790 --> 00:06:57,723 - Let both sides begin anew the quest for peace 122 00:06:58,836 --> 00:07:02,328 before the dark towers of destruction, 123 00:07:02,352 --> 00:07:04,252 unleashed by science, 124 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:07,363 engulf all humanity. 125 00:07:07,970 --> 00:07:10,801 Let us never negotiate out of fear, 126 00:07:11,483 --> 00:07:13,808 but let us never fear to negotiate. 127 00:07:16,187 --> 00:07:21,031 If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, 128 00:07:21,993 --> 00:07:24,461 it cannot save the few who are rich. 129 00:07:30,994 --> 00:07:34,064 - Ruth and Michael Paine are very important 130 00:07:34,093 --> 00:07:35,813 in the Warren Commission volumes. 131 00:07:35,832 --> 00:07:38,517 They were asked a total over 6,000 questions. 132 00:07:38,752 --> 00:07:41,802 Ruth herself was asked about 5,000 questions, 133 00:07:41,883 --> 00:07:43,392 which is the most questions 134 00:07:43,393 --> 00:07:45,804 that any single witness was asked, by far. 135 00:07:48,136 --> 00:07:50,846 They asked a lot of questions. 136 00:07:50,889 --> 00:07:54,469 But I did not feel there was suspicion of me 137 00:07:54,493 --> 00:07:56,494 by anyone on the Warren Commission 138 00:07:56,519 --> 00:07:59,741 'cause they were really looking into it thoroughly. 139 00:08:00,190 --> 00:08:03,570 The suspicion comes from people who are looking for plots 140 00:08:03,923 --> 00:08:06,816 and trying to figure out who... 141 00:08:08,813 --> 00:08:11,402 It's so hard to feel that such a great man 142 00:08:11,403 --> 00:08:14,966 could be brought down so easily by such a small person. 143 00:08:15,823 --> 00:08:18,696 That's really hard to take in. 144 00:08:20,033 --> 00:08:23,542 - I think the conspiracy theories did more harm 145 00:08:23,543 --> 00:08:26,665 to the country than the assassination did. 146 00:08:27,217 --> 00:08:28,654 It undermined trust, 147 00:08:29,093 --> 00:08:32,136 not only in government but in institutions. 148 00:08:33,383 --> 00:08:34,982 - To understand the assassination 149 00:08:34,983 --> 00:08:37,112 is an enormous investment of time, 150 00:08:37,113 --> 00:08:40,032 analyzing where the information is coming from, 151 00:08:40,033 --> 00:08:43,446 who's saying it, whether it was corrected later. 152 00:08:44,333 --> 00:08:47,072 - For people who do dedicate themselves to this, 153 00:08:47,073 --> 00:08:49,772 the inescapable truth about the Kennedy assassination 154 00:08:49,773 --> 00:08:52,843 is that the testimony, the evidence, do not add up 155 00:08:52,867 --> 00:08:54,929 to the conclusion the Warren Commission came to. 156 00:08:56,643 --> 00:08:57,743 - So... 157 00:08:58,456 --> 00:09:00,083 Oh, they made sense to me. 158 00:09:05,362 --> 00:09:08,316 - The Warren Commission withheld mountains of evidence 159 00:09:08,341 --> 00:09:09,421 from the public. 160 00:09:11,845 --> 00:09:14,495 The man who was most active on the Warren Report 161 00:09:14,533 --> 00:09:17,052 was Allen Dulles, former head of the CIA, 162 00:09:17,053 --> 00:09:18,699 who Jack Kennedy had fired 163 00:09:19,019 --> 00:09:21,215 and who really hated Jack Kennedy. 164 00:09:21,833 --> 00:09:23,982 J. Edgar Hoover, on the day of the assassination 165 00:09:23,983 --> 00:09:25,872 and within two hours of Oswald's arrest, 166 00:09:25,873 --> 00:09:28,304 was announcing that Oswald had done it and done it alone. 167 00:09:28,693 --> 00:09:30,145 How could he have known that Oswald 168 00:09:30,146 --> 00:09:32,782 did not have confederates who were still at large? 169 00:09:32,783 --> 00:09:35,692 The FBI intimidated witnesses to stick right 170 00:09:35,693 --> 00:09:36,882 with the official version. 171 00:09:36,883 --> 00:09:38,544 Numerous leads were missed. 172 00:09:41,833 --> 00:09:43,312 To the White House in Washington 173 00:09:43,313 --> 00:09:45,933 comes the final verdict on the fateful tragedy 174 00:09:45,962 --> 00:09:48,447 which engulfed the nation 10 months ago. 175 00:09:48,933 --> 00:09:50,952 The US Chief Justice Earl Warren 176 00:09:50,953 --> 00:09:53,402 is the bearer of the sad epilogue. 177 00:09:53,403 --> 00:09:55,372 The report... - In 1964, 178 00:09:55,373 --> 00:09:57,862 Earl Warren was asked if the commission's documents 179 00:09:57,863 --> 00:09:59,520 would ever be released to the public. 180 00:10:00,323 --> 00:10:03,802 His answer: "Yes, there will come a time, 181 00:10:03,803 --> 00:10:05,703 but it might not be in your lifetime." 182 00:10:06,713 --> 00:10:10,182 Over the last five decades, public outcry led to the release 183 00:10:10,183 --> 00:10:12,762 of millions of pages of documents, 184 00:10:12,763 --> 00:10:14,482 but many of the most sensitive files 185 00:10:14,483 --> 00:10:17,662 were held back by the CIA and FBI. 186 00:10:17,663 --> 00:10:20,422 For most Americans, the killing of John F. Kennedy 187 00:10:20,423 --> 00:10:22,601 remains unsettled history. 188 00:10:25,993 --> 00:10:27,442 - Finally, in the mid '70s, 189 00:10:27,443 --> 00:10:29,692 the Zapruder film was shown to the public 190 00:10:29,693 --> 00:10:31,107 that shows Kennedy going back to the left 191 00:10:31,108 --> 00:10:32,402 and everybody goes, "Hey, wait a minute 192 00:10:32,403 --> 00:10:33,403 if he's shot from behind, 193 00:10:33,428 --> 00:10:34,950 why is he going back to the left?" 194 00:10:38,723 --> 00:10:40,267 - This is very heavy. 195 00:10:40,283 --> 00:10:43,602 It's the film shot by the Dallas dress manufacturer, 196 00:10:43,603 --> 00:10:45,386 Abraham Zapruder. 197 00:10:46,606 --> 00:10:48,452 At the bottom of the screen, the headshot. 198 00:11:02,223 --> 00:11:03,922 So, then the House Select Committee looked 199 00:11:03,923 --> 00:11:04,942 at it again and they concluded 200 00:11:04,943 --> 00:11:06,812 that it's likely there was a conspiracy, 201 00:11:06,813 --> 00:11:09,228 both in Kennedy's case and Martin Luther King's case, 202 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,313 and that was the official conclusion. 203 00:11:16,483 --> 00:11:18,852 - I submit to you that what took place 204 00:11:18,853 --> 00:11:22,589 on November 22nd, 1963, was a coup d'état. 205 00:11:23,128 --> 00:11:27,108 - This was a package of unfathomable lies, 206 00:11:27,133 --> 00:11:32,133 packaged together though with a cinema artist's great skill. 207 00:11:32,203 --> 00:11:36,442 - It really illustrates how wrong that film was 208 00:11:36,443 --> 00:11:38,622 or how fictitious it was 209 00:11:38,623 --> 00:11:41,272 because there we were, but it was not us 210 00:11:41,273 --> 00:11:42,862 and not even our names. 211 00:11:42,863 --> 00:11:44,082 The Oswalds was introduced 212 00:11:44,083 --> 00:11:46,252 to Janet and Bill Williams. 213 00:11:46,253 --> 00:11:47,982 For all I can find out about the Williams 214 00:11:47,983 --> 00:11:50,362 is that their tax returns are classified 215 00:11:50,363 --> 00:11:53,322 and that Bill Williams has links through his family 216 00:11:53,323 --> 00:11:56,989 to the CIA and does classified work for Bell Helicopter. 217 00:11:57,010 --> 00:11:59,633 - I was surprised that he didn't try to reach me. 218 00:12:00,138 --> 00:12:02,949 I guess he was nervous about me, I'm not sure. 219 00:12:04,683 --> 00:12:06,912 - Oliver Stone is a wonderful filmmaker, 220 00:12:06,913 --> 00:12:09,952 but he's used this to put certain myths 221 00:12:09,953 --> 00:12:13,388 into the American bloodstream that abide to this day. 222 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:20,683 - Subcommittee will come to order. 223 00:12:20,723 --> 00:12:22,782 Today, we consider legislation 224 00:12:22,783 --> 00:12:25,852 that would publicly release the investigative files 225 00:12:25,853 --> 00:12:29,992 and other documents relating to the assassination. 226 00:12:29,993 --> 00:12:32,082 - Mr. Chairman, I am committed to the principle 227 00:12:32,083 --> 00:12:33,792 that Americans are entitled 228 00:12:33,793 --> 00:12:35,552 to know the truth about the assassination 229 00:12:35,553 --> 00:12:37,012 of President Kennedy 230 00:12:37,013 --> 00:12:38,712 and feel that Congress should do its best 231 00:12:38,713 --> 00:12:42,214 to allay fears of the American people in this regard. 232 00:12:42,803 --> 00:12:45,412 - The next witness is Oliver Stone, 233 00:12:45,413 --> 00:12:48,722 one of our most successful film directors, 234 00:12:48,723 --> 00:12:50,176 a Vietnam veteran. 235 00:12:50,623 --> 00:12:52,723 Welcome, Mr. Stone. 236 00:12:52,732 --> 00:12:56,143 You are probably the reason that we're all here today. 237 00:12:56,713 --> 00:12:58,142 - Among some of the records 238 00:12:58,143 --> 00:13:01,902 that we were dying to get hold of in order to elaborate 239 00:13:01,903 --> 00:13:03,652 on our theories in the film 240 00:13:03,653 --> 00:13:06,912 are the testimony of people like Richard Helms, 241 00:13:06,913 --> 00:13:11,562 Howard Hunt, CIA agent at that time, Ruth Paine, 242 00:13:11,563 --> 00:13:14,990 who knew the Oswalds very well in Dallas. 243 00:13:15,722 --> 00:13:17,722 - All these names that you're mentioning, 244 00:13:17,747 --> 00:13:20,157 the ones that are living, did you contact them 245 00:13:20,182 --> 00:13:21,805 or some of your representatives contact- 246 00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:23,550 - None of these people would talk to us. 247 00:13:24,305 --> 00:13:25,724 - Thank you so much, Mr. Stone. 248 00:13:25,765 --> 00:13:30,645 We have 74 co-sponsors on the bill at this present time, 249 00:13:30,653 --> 00:13:32,912 and we think that, a result 250 00:13:32,913 --> 00:13:35,342 of the initiation of these hearings, 251 00:13:35,343 --> 00:13:38,491 we will soon get the required number. 252 00:13:42,723 --> 00:13:44,882 - The National Archives are prepared to release more 253 00:13:44,883 --> 00:13:46,322 than 3,000 documents. 254 00:13:46,323 --> 00:13:49,612 - President George H.W. Bush signed the JFK Records Act 255 00:13:49,613 --> 00:13:52,562 in October 1992, which initiated the collection 256 00:13:52,563 --> 00:13:54,742 of those mainly FBI and CIA documents 257 00:13:54,743 --> 00:13:56,992 and called for their public release 25 years later, 258 00:13:56,993 --> 00:13:59,692 which is October 26th of this year. 259 00:13:59,693 --> 00:14:00,693 - Top-secret documents 260 00:14:00,726 --> 00:14:02,502 about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy 261 00:14:02,503 --> 00:14:05,132 are now public, 54 years after his death. 262 00:14:05,133 --> 00:14:07,242 It is just a fraction of the documents. 263 00:14:07,243 --> 00:14:08,872 Today, President Trump delayed the release 264 00:14:08,873 --> 00:14:11,102 of many of the secret files following concerns 265 00:14:11,103 --> 00:14:12,532 from national security agencies 266 00:14:12,533 --> 00:14:14,201 over what should be made public. 267 00:14:14,553 --> 00:14:16,022 - At the 11th hour here, 268 00:14:16,023 --> 00:14:19,292 it appears that the CIA and the FBI said 269 00:14:19,293 --> 00:14:21,992 there were concerns about national security. 270 00:14:21,993 --> 00:14:24,122 Here is something that's been on the books 271 00:14:24,123 --> 00:14:26,922 for more than 25 years, this release of documents. 272 00:14:26,923 --> 00:14:28,062 We've known it's coming. 273 00:14:28,063 --> 00:14:29,702 Everyone knew it was coming. 274 00:14:29,703 --> 00:14:32,192 And with less than six hours left, 275 00:14:32,193 --> 00:14:33,869 all of a sudden there's a new sense of, 276 00:14:33,870 --> 00:14:35,602 "Well, no, we need to look at this further. 277 00:14:35,603 --> 00:14:37,322 We haven't had enough time to look at it." 278 00:14:37,323 --> 00:14:39,082 I'll guarantee you conspiracy theorists 279 00:14:39,083 --> 00:14:41,016 are going crazy over that. 280 00:14:41,993 --> 00:14:44,612 According to the two most basic theories, 281 00:14:44,613 --> 00:14:46,870 Ruth Paine was either a CIA asset 282 00:14:47,183 --> 00:14:49,472 who holds secrets to the biggest murder mystery 283 00:14:49,473 --> 00:14:53,742 in US history or an innocent bystander who's been slandered 284 00:14:53,743 --> 00:14:57,066 and harassed by people like me for the last 50 years. 285 00:14:59,183 --> 00:15:01,412 For those of the conspiratorial persuasion, 286 00:15:01,413 --> 00:15:04,072 there are more nuanced questions, 287 00:15:04,073 --> 00:15:06,142 such as whether Ruth was an active member 288 00:15:06,143 --> 00:15:09,886 of an assassination plot or just an unwitting pawn, 289 00:15:10,793 --> 00:15:12,902 or whether she's in such deep denial 290 00:15:12,903 --> 00:15:14,994 that she believes her own lies. 291 00:15:16,773 --> 00:15:19,022 Of course, if you trust Ruth, 292 00:15:19,023 --> 00:15:21,466 this all sounds like paranoid gibberish. 293 00:15:23,313 --> 00:15:26,222 Michael Paine plays a smaller role in the story 294 00:15:26,223 --> 00:15:29,122 because he wasn't living at the house at the time, 295 00:15:29,123 --> 00:15:32,568 although the suspicions around Michael are just as intense. 296 00:15:34,743 --> 00:15:37,172 Ruth and Michael Paine were not your typical family 297 00:15:37,173 --> 00:15:39,832 living in the working-class suburb of Irving, Texas, 298 00:15:39,833 --> 00:15:41,216 in 1963. 299 00:15:42,153 --> 00:15:44,732 Both Paines were well-educated liberals 300 00:15:44,733 --> 00:15:47,606 born in New York City to affluent families. 301 00:15:48,683 --> 00:15:51,636 Ruth was a Quaker and Michael a Unitarian. 302 00:15:52,583 --> 00:15:54,172 Despite the fact that Michael worked 303 00:15:54,173 --> 00:15:56,232 for a military contractor, 304 00:15:56,233 --> 00:15:59,876 the Paines both describe themselves as pacifists. 305 00:16:00,753 --> 00:16:03,082 The first time I went to interview Ruth, 306 00:16:03,083 --> 00:16:05,092 I discovered that Michael had just moved in 307 00:16:05,093 --> 00:16:07,172 to the same retirement home, 308 00:16:07,173 --> 00:16:10,441 even though they had been divorced for 40 years. 309 00:16:10,466 --> 00:16:11,616 - That's Michael Paine. 310 00:16:12,843 --> 00:16:14,047 Michael. 311 00:16:14,483 --> 00:16:15,666 This is Max Goode. 312 00:16:16,686 --> 00:16:18,244 I'm doing a documentary with Ruth. 313 00:16:18,269 --> 00:16:19,418 I'd love to talk to you. 314 00:16:19,648 --> 00:16:20,648 - Any time. 315 00:16:26,404 --> 00:16:27,704 All right, a little poll here. 316 00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:30,008 How many of you people think there was a conspiracy? 317 00:16:30,032 --> 00:16:31,117 - No. - No. 318 00:16:31,159 --> 00:16:32,521 - No, they're not here. 319 00:16:33,787 --> 00:16:38,790 - Take your choice the CIA, the FBI, Johnson. 320 00:16:38,822 --> 00:16:39,822 You know... 321 00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:42,766 One right after another. 322 00:16:42,808 --> 00:16:44,721 - Yeah, I... 323 00:16:44,746 --> 00:16:47,955 With what has happened in this country over the years, 324 00:16:47,956 --> 00:16:49,512 I wouldn't doubt it. 325 00:16:49,513 --> 00:16:52,922 I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a conspiracy. 326 00:16:52,923 --> 00:16:55,215 - Yeah, well, you're one of my liberal friends, yeah. 327 00:17:02,315 --> 00:17:04,833 - Well, I think that Oswald did it. 328 00:17:04,858 --> 00:17:06,867 I don't happen to know anything else. 329 00:17:07,183 --> 00:17:10,942 Here he has shot the president of the United States, 330 00:17:11,623 --> 00:17:14,906 the biggest so-called democracy in the world. 331 00:17:16,699 --> 00:17:18,319 That's going to go down in history, 332 00:17:18,539 --> 00:17:20,161 and he was the one who did it. 333 00:17:21,877 --> 00:17:23,807 I was only able to talk to Michael Paine 334 00:17:23,833 --> 00:17:25,046 for half an hour. 335 00:17:25,623 --> 00:17:27,343 It was clear that he was already beginning 336 00:17:27,382 --> 00:17:28,726 to lose his memory. 337 00:17:28,967 --> 00:17:30,367 - Because of that danger. 338 00:17:30,433 --> 00:17:31,852 From what I was told, 339 00:17:31,853 --> 00:17:34,042 he became increasingly incoherent 340 00:17:34,066 --> 00:17:35,707 over the next few years. 341 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,568 I know it's hard, and thank you for revisiting this. 342 00:17:51,573 --> 00:17:53,741 - It's all hard. It's always hard. 343 00:17:59,222 --> 00:18:01,342 I was interviewed by the networks, 344 00:18:01,373 --> 00:18:03,968 and they've done every 10th anniversary, 345 00:18:04,001 --> 00:18:07,015 20th, 30th, 40th, 50th anniversaries. 346 00:18:07,063 --> 00:18:08,932 ABC did one of the best, 347 00:18:08,933 --> 00:18:11,692 which began by saying Oswald did it 348 00:18:11,693 --> 00:18:13,542 and they were going to show you why. 349 00:18:14,063 --> 00:18:15,672 - More than two-thirds of Americans 350 00:18:15,673 --> 00:18:17,753 still believe there was a conspiracy 351 00:18:17,777 --> 00:18:18,891 to kill the president. 352 00:18:19,533 --> 00:18:21,128 But unless you are an irredeemable 353 00:18:21,152 --> 00:18:23,812 conspiracy theorist, beyond the pale, so to speak, 354 00:18:23,813 --> 00:18:26,002 what we will do tonight is demonstrate 355 00:18:26,003 --> 00:18:27,429 that those theories are wrong. 356 00:18:30,043 --> 00:18:36,094 - There was a televised mock trial in '86 of the JFK case 357 00:18:36,293 --> 00:18:39,102 with Gerry Spence representing Oswald, 358 00:18:39,103 --> 00:18:42,022 Vince Bugliosi, representing the prosecution. 359 00:18:42,023 --> 00:18:45,255 Because Spence wasn't well prepared, Vince carried the day, 360 00:18:45,256 --> 00:18:48,026 and one of his best witnesses was Ruth Paine. 361 00:18:48,051 --> 00:18:49,481 Call your next witness. 362 00:18:49,506 --> 00:18:53,331 This government calls Mrs. Ruth Paine. 363 00:18:56,050 --> 00:18:58,313 Here, take the witness stand if you would, please. 364 00:18:59,302 --> 00:19:00,682 Tell us your name. 365 00:19:00,725 --> 00:19:01,925 I'm Ruth Paine. 366 00:19:03,153 --> 00:19:05,544 Mrs. Paine, your occupation, ma'am? 367 00:19:05,564 --> 00:19:06,954 - I'm a school psychologist. 368 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:08,305 I work with schoolchildren. 369 00:19:08,873 --> 00:19:11,042 It was like a regular trial 370 00:19:11,043 --> 00:19:15,902 and they brought in jurors and a judge from Dallas 371 00:19:15,903 --> 00:19:19,062 and the real witnesses, including myself. 372 00:19:19,063 --> 00:19:21,602 - Didn't you tell the Warren Commission 373 00:19:21,603 --> 00:19:24,788 that you were impressed how calm Lee was 374 00:19:24,813 --> 00:19:28,562 and how completely certain Lee was of his innocence? 375 00:19:29,462 --> 00:19:35,941 You, of course, are not an agent for the CIA, are you? 376 00:19:36,009 --> 00:19:37,841 - No. - You see, you laugh. 377 00:19:37,866 --> 00:19:38,866 - Yes, I do. 378 00:19:40,313 --> 00:19:43,982 - You are not an agent for the KGB, are you? 379 00:19:43,983 --> 00:19:44,983 - No. 380 00:19:45,016 --> 00:19:46,748 Are you laughing again? 381 00:19:46,773 --> 00:19:48,470 - Well, you ridiculed me for laughing once, so- 382 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,150 - No, I don't mean to ridicule you for it. 383 00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:53,266 I just want to know if you find the inquiry amusing. 384 00:19:56,155 --> 00:19:57,240 No. 385 00:20:03,458 --> 00:20:05,414 - The back bedroom is where Ruth Paine 386 00:20:05,438 --> 00:20:06,823 stayed with her children. 387 00:20:06,863 --> 00:20:09,712 The front bedroom's where Marina Oswald stayed 388 00:20:09,713 --> 00:20:10,832 with her kids. - Okay. 389 00:20:10,833 --> 00:20:12,242 - And the... 390 00:20:12,266 --> 00:20:13,670 the famous garage is over here 391 00:20:13,715 --> 00:20:15,694 - on the other side of the house. - Where the gun was. 392 00:20:15,717 --> 00:20:16,987 Right, right, so let me know 393 00:20:17,012 --> 00:20:18,931 if you have any questions. - Okay. 394 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,940 - The people that are suspicious of me 395 00:20:23,965 --> 00:20:25,945 fortunately don't really come around 396 00:20:25,983 --> 00:20:27,324 to talk to me. 397 00:20:27,325 --> 00:20:29,753 That does not happen, and I'm grateful for that. 398 00:20:30,982 --> 00:20:33,250 Paines were connected- 399 00:20:33,275 --> 00:20:34,705 - They were? - To the CIA. 400 00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:36,308 She was a Quaker. 401 00:20:38,155 --> 00:20:40,350 - No. She said she was a Quaker. 402 00:20:40,375 --> 00:20:43,825 - They were connected to the CIA before all this happened? 403 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:46,270 - Well, first of all, we try to be neutral 404 00:20:46,295 --> 00:20:48,318 as far as all the different theories. 405 00:20:49,084 --> 00:20:50,461 They might mention something like, 406 00:20:50,486 --> 00:20:53,787 "I heard the Paines were working for the CIA." 407 00:20:53,812 --> 00:20:56,464 And I might mention, well, it's pretty much impossible 408 00:20:56,508 --> 00:20:59,845 to know if someone's working for the CIA or not 409 00:20:59,892 --> 00:21:01,562 'cause that's the first rule of working for the CIA 410 00:21:01,563 --> 00:21:04,236 is you don't let anyone know ever. 411 00:21:04,272 --> 00:21:05,472 You know, so... 412 00:21:07,243 --> 00:21:08,516 - The official story, 413 00:21:09,791 --> 00:21:11,079 I don't like to offend anybody, 414 00:21:11,104 --> 00:21:16,069 but if you believe it, you've got the IQ of an amoeba. 415 00:21:16,438 --> 00:21:18,188 - See, you had the IQ of an amoeba 416 00:21:18,213 --> 00:21:19,713 until yesterday. - Oh, I did not! 417 00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:26,752 There are all kinds of claims 418 00:21:26,753 --> 00:21:28,702 and rumors about the Paines, 419 00:21:28,703 --> 00:21:30,237 but no concrete evidence 420 00:21:30,261 --> 00:21:32,866 has ever directly linked them to the CIA. 421 00:21:33,733 --> 00:21:35,772 Most of the suspicions revolve around 422 00:21:35,773 --> 00:21:37,093 their immediate family. 423 00:21:37,893 --> 00:21:40,052 - Everybody has connections of some sort. 424 00:21:40,053 --> 00:21:43,396 My father did work for the USAID. 425 00:21:43,988 --> 00:21:48,318 And some people who work for USAID are also in the CIA, 426 00:21:48,343 --> 00:21:50,996 but that wasn't true of my father, I don't believe. 427 00:21:52,486 --> 00:21:53,956 Your sister, was she? 428 00:21:53,981 --> 00:21:58,862 - I think she worked briefly with an outfit. 429 00:21:58,873 --> 00:22:01,162 All I really know, that she's told me about it, 430 00:22:01,163 --> 00:22:04,402 is that she was helping develop questionnaires 431 00:22:04,403 --> 00:22:06,932 for non-English speakers. 432 00:22:06,933 --> 00:22:11,912 It's possible, but I think unlikely 433 00:22:11,913 --> 00:22:15,312 that some of the contracts she may have been working on 434 00:22:15,313 --> 00:22:20,016 could've been something the CIA wanted, but I don't know. 435 00:22:21,018 --> 00:22:22,528 Researching online, 436 00:22:22,553 --> 00:22:25,809 I was able to track down Ruth's sister, Sylvia Hoke. 437 00:22:26,306 --> 00:22:28,163 She was still alive at age 90, 438 00:22:28,518 --> 00:22:31,738 but unfortunately she wasn't interested in talking. 439 00:22:31,763 --> 00:22:34,526 Would you be willing to answer a few questions? 440 00:22:39,736 --> 00:22:43,351 - Every man, woman, and child 441 00:22:43,375 --> 00:22:46,024 lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles 442 00:22:46,783 --> 00:22:49,120 hanging by the slenderest of threads, 443 00:22:50,213 --> 00:22:54,102 capable of being cut at any moment by accident 444 00:22:54,103 --> 00:22:56,956 or miscalculation or by madness. 445 00:22:57,703 --> 00:22:59,382 Each year of the Kennedy presidency 446 00:22:59,383 --> 00:23:01,803 was marked by a major Cold War crisis. 447 00:23:02,342 --> 00:23:05,322 In 1961, the CIA enacted a plan 448 00:23:05,363 --> 00:23:08,765 that had been in the works long before Kennedy took office, 449 00:23:09,093 --> 00:23:10,427 the Bay of Pigs invasion. 450 00:23:11,613 --> 00:23:13,802 Kennedy went along with the covert operation 451 00:23:13,803 --> 00:23:15,456 to overthrow Fidel Castro. 452 00:23:16,213 --> 00:23:19,073 But when the CIA-trained anti-Castro guerrillas 453 00:23:19,109 --> 00:23:21,442 were quickly overwhelmed by the Cuban army, 454 00:23:21,883 --> 00:23:24,842 he rejected CIA demands to send in the Air Force 455 00:23:24,843 --> 00:23:26,046 and finish the job. 456 00:23:27,123 --> 00:23:29,852 Mistrust and resentment would mark Kennedy's relationship 457 00:23:29,853 --> 00:23:32,839 with the military and CIA for the rest of his life. 458 00:23:33,613 --> 00:23:35,602 After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, 459 00:23:35,603 --> 00:23:37,692 Kennedy remarked that he wanted to, quote, 460 00:23:37,693 --> 00:23:40,722 "Splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces," 461 00:23:40,723 --> 00:23:43,886 and he fired CIA Director Allen Dulles soon after. 462 00:23:45,213 --> 00:23:46,352 The following year, 463 00:23:46,353 --> 00:23:48,993 Cuba was again at center stage in the Cold War. 464 00:23:49,673 --> 00:23:51,812 The US discovered that the Soviet Union 465 00:23:51,813 --> 00:23:54,242 had stationed nuclear missiles on the island, 466 00:23:54,243 --> 00:23:55,956 just 90 miles from Florida. 467 00:23:56,833 --> 00:23:59,153 The resulting 13-day showdown 468 00:23:59,178 --> 00:24:01,178 brought the world to the brink of nuclear war. 469 00:24:02,053 --> 00:24:05,083 Somehow, Kennedy and Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev 470 00:24:05,113 --> 00:24:07,099 were able to defuse the situation, 471 00:24:07,473 --> 00:24:10,416 despite the influence of war hawks on both sides. 472 00:24:12,103 --> 00:24:13,682 At the height of the crisis, 473 00:24:13,683 --> 00:24:15,192 Attorney General Robert Kennedy 474 00:24:15,193 --> 00:24:18,009 met with the Soviet ambassador and told him, 475 00:24:18,010 --> 00:24:19,912 "We are under pressure from our military 476 00:24:19,913 --> 00:24:21,528 to use force against Cuba. 477 00:24:21,973 --> 00:24:24,472 If the situation continues much longer, 478 00:24:24,473 --> 00:24:25,712 the president is not sure 479 00:24:25,713 --> 00:24:29,180 that the military will not overthrow him and seize power." 480 00:24:35,038 --> 00:24:36,994 - Mrs. Paine, what is the next thing that happened 481 00:24:37,018 --> 00:24:38,897 pertaining to the assassination? 482 00:24:39,923 --> 00:24:42,082 - Well, the next thing, they announced on the television 483 00:24:42,083 --> 00:24:43,442 that the president had died. 484 00:24:43,443 --> 00:24:45,702 And very shortly after that, 485 00:24:45,703 --> 00:24:48,723 there were six officers that came to my front door. 486 00:24:49,193 --> 00:24:51,002 There are those who feel they can just tell 487 00:24:51,003 --> 00:24:52,572 that Ruth Paine is lying, 488 00:24:52,573 --> 00:24:54,412 that it's written all over her face. 489 00:24:55,023 --> 00:24:57,192 Some say that she's too articulate, 490 00:24:57,193 --> 00:25:00,612 that she must be a CIA agent repeating rehearsed lines. 491 00:25:01,503 --> 00:25:04,116 We can read into the accused whatever we like. 492 00:25:04,933 --> 00:25:06,742 Ruth has given so many interviews, 493 00:25:06,743 --> 00:25:08,202 and we expect her to perform 494 00:25:08,203 --> 00:25:10,802 the appropriate emotions each time. 495 00:25:10,803 --> 00:25:14,912 Shock, sadness, anger, regret. 496 00:25:14,913 --> 00:25:18,030 - One of the officers asked if he had any guns 497 00:25:18,061 --> 00:25:19,969 and I said no. 498 00:25:20,263 --> 00:25:21,922 Translated the question to Marina. 499 00:25:21,923 --> 00:25:24,102 And she said, "Yes, he did." 500 00:25:24,103 --> 00:25:27,326 And she led the policeman into the garage. 501 00:25:27,362 --> 00:25:29,992 And there on the floor was a blanket roll. 502 00:25:30,013 --> 00:25:32,539 And the officer picked up the blanket roll 503 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:34,742 and it was so clear right away, 504 00:25:34,743 --> 00:25:36,133 that there was nothing in it. 505 00:25:36,369 --> 00:25:38,224 And it folded over his arm. 506 00:25:38,644 --> 00:25:40,966 It was clearly an empty blanket. 507 00:25:42,419 --> 00:25:44,819 And that was the point at which I felt, 508 00:25:44,848 --> 00:25:47,375 "Oh, it could have been Lee." 509 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,760 "It could have been Lee." 510 00:25:48,786 --> 00:25:50,981 And it was at that point that I thought, 511 00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:52,352 "It could have been Lee." 512 00:25:52,377 --> 00:25:53,937 And this was the worst moment ever 513 00:25:53,972 --> 00:25:55,126 because I thought, 514 00:25:55,150 --> 00:25:57,189 "Oh my God, it could have been Lee. 515 00:25:57,225 --> 00:25:58,833 It could have been Lee." 516 00:25:59,059 --> 00:26:02,387 - Conspiracy theorists must explain the Paines away. 517 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:03,756 They must be wrong. 518 00:26:03,814 --> 00:26:06,232 And guess what, you can't say they're lying, 519 00:26:06,257 --> 00:26:08,017 'cause they're meticulously honest. 520 00:26:08,133 --> 00:26:10,242 They haven't changed their story from day one. 521 00:26:10,243 --> 00:26:12,430 Their core is about telling the truth. 522 00:26:13,793 --> 00:26:16,499 Since the release of his 1993 bestseller, 523 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:21,192 "Case Closed," author and former attorney Gerald Posner 524 00:26:21,193 --> 00:26:24,452 has been the go-to expert representing the official story. 525 00:26:25,643 --> 00:26:28,502 - The record is now abundant with the evidence 526 00:26:28,503 --> 00:26:30,912 and original material that you can draw the conclusion 527 00:26:30,913 --> 00:26:32,696 that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. 528 00:26:33,823 --> 00:26:34,862 On the other side, 529 00:26:34,863 --> 00:26:37,542 you have a 92-year-old Philadelphia lawyer, 530 00:26:37,543 --> 00:26:41,295 Vince Salandria, a legend among conspiracy researchers. 531 00:26:41,770 --> 00:26:45,440 In 1964, he was among the first to publicly challenge 532 00:26:45,465 --> 00:26:47,465 the conclusions of the Warren Commission. 533 00:26:47,843 --> 00:26:50,702 For over 50 years, his analysis of the case 534 00:26:50,703 --> 00:26:53,136 has been considered to be the most cutting edge 535 00:26:53,323 --> 00:26:56,522 or the most extreme, depending on your persuasion. 536 00:26:57,039 --> 00:26:58,892 - It wasn't a Castro conspiracy. 537 00:27:00,203 --> 00:27:02,025 It wasn't a Soviet conspiracy. 538 00:27:02,573 --> 00:27:04,866 It wasn't a mafia conspiracy. 539 00:27:06,093 --> 00:27:07,922 Our institutions did it. 540 00:27:07,923 --> 00:27:09,125 Our government did it. 541 00:27:09,693 --> 00:27:12,363 In order to have a conspiracy, 542 00:27:12,388 --> 00:27:13,938 you've got to complete a circle. 543 00:27:15,003 --> 00:27:17,932 In this case, you've got to get the Oswalds 544 00:27:17,933 --> 00:27:19,030 into the Dallas area. 545 00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:24,809 You got to get Oswald into the Texas Book Depository in time, 546 00:27:25,653 --> 00:27:27,123 people with garage 547 00:27:28,212 --> 00:27:32,185 where the so-called murder weapon can be stored. 548 00:27:33,083 --> 00:27:35,926 Suppose this conspiracy says, why don't we just wait. 549 00:27:37,553 --> 00:27:42,553 Somebody will get Oswald and his family into Dallas. 550 00:27:43,288 --> 00:27:46,251 We'll just wait, maybe he'll happen to find a job 551 00:27:46,273 --> 00:27:47,694 in the Texas Book Depository. 552 00:27:48,043 --> 00:27:51,364 Once you see a conspiracy, it's over for the Paines. 553 00:27:51,389 --> 00:27:54,200 You can't close the circle without the Paines. 554 00:27:54,453 --> 00:27:58,466 There's no way they could be innocent, no way! 555 00:28:01,725 --> 00:28:04,515 - I didn't get into the conspiracies at all 556 00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:08,930 because I don't have a paranoid bone in my body. 557 00:28:09,353 --> 00:28:12,272 I just don't see ghosts anywhere. 558 00:28:12,273 --> 00:28:15,124 The other side of that is I'm kind of naive, 559 00:28:15,780 --> 00:28:22,061 and it has been a blessing, frankly, to be naive. 560 00:28:30,193 --> 00:28:33,432 - It was through the auspices of George de Mohrenschildt 561 00:28:33,433 --> 00:28:37,730 that Ruth and Michael Paine are introduced to the Oswalds. 562 00:28:37,795 --> 00:28:39,061 - Oswald becomes chummy 563 00:28:39,093 --> 00:28:41,372 with the white Russian community of Dallas, 564 00:28:41,373 --> 00:28:44,742 all rabid anti-communists; it's odd. 565 00:28:44,743 --> 00:28:47,822 His closest friend is an oil man 566 00:28:47,823 --> 00:28:49,922 named George de Mohrenschildt, 567 00:28:49,923 --> 00:28:52,472 who's about 35 years older than Oswald, 568 00:28:52,473 --> 00:28:55,802 who is only 23 and supposedly broke. 569 00:28:55,803 --> 00:28:59,102 - I think the only time I met George de Mohrenschildt 570 00:28:59,103 --> 00:29:01,732 was at this party in February, 571 00:29:01,733 --> 00:29:04,752 and he and his wife Jeanne were there. 572 00:29:04,753 --> 00:29:05,813 But I didn't... 573 00:29:06,181 --> 00:29:08,253 I wasn't... didn't hear much from them 574 00:29:08,291 --> 00:29:11,181 because I spent most of the evening with Marina 575 00:29:11,211 --> 00:29:13,298 in a bedroom with the baby. 576 00:29:13,673 --> 00:29:18,032 - De Mohrenschildt is a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club, 577 00:29:18,033 --> 00:29:19,382 speaks five languages, 578 00:29:19,383 --> 00:29:22,252 and was French Vichy intelligence during the war, 579 00:29:22,253 --> 00:29:24,982 also rumored to have been a Nazi sympathizer. 580 00:29:24,983 --> 00:29:29,422 We met the Oswalds in the summer of 1962 581 00:29:29,423 --> 00:29:30,957 when we heard that 582 00:29:32,022 --> 00:29:34,852 there was a young couple who arrived from Russia 583 00:29:34,853 --> 00:29:37,203 and were in very difficult financial condition. 584 00:29:38,313 --> 00:29:39,862 Why would a white Russian 585 00:29:39,863 --> 00:29:43,708 who is vehemently anti-communist associate with Oswald? 586 00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:45,502 - I don't know, good question. 587 00:29:46,693 --> 00:29:47,908 Not one I asked. 588 00:29:48,333 --> 00:29:53,072 - Shortly after this, in about April of 1963, 589 00:29:53,073 --> 00:29:56,852 George de Mohrenschildt leaves the Dallas-Fort Worth area. 590 00:29:56,853 --> 00:29:59,303 Then he goes on to Haiti. 591 00:29:59,483 --> 00:30:04,680 And reportedly there is $300,000 deposited into his account. 592 00:30:04,983 --> 00:30:07,712 - Before he went to Haiti, he went to Washington 593 00:30:07,713 --> 00:30:10,172 and sat down in a secret meeting 594 00:30:10,173 --> 00:30:12,652 with Army intelligence and the CIA, 595 00:30:12,653 --> 00:30:15,248 so you can see that de Mohrenschildt 596 00:30:15,273 --> 00:30:18,683 is somebody with a kind of spook background. 597 00:30:19,058 --> 00:30:20,768 - So, the question then becomes, 598 00:30:20,793 --> 00:30:23,392 was de Mohrenschildt being paid off 599 00:30:23,393 --> 00:30:26,922 for doing his escort services with Oswald 600 00:30:26,923 --> 00:30:29,432 and then leaving them with Ruth and Michael Paine? 601 00:30:29,433 --> 00:30:31,162 That's a question we can't answer 602 00:30:31,163 --> 00:30:34,442 because unfortunately when the House Select Committee 603 00:30:34,443 --> 00:30:38,512 was trying to serve a subpoena, he was either murdered 604 00:30:38,513 --> 00:30:41,326 or took his own life with a shotgun blast. 605 00:30:43,313 --> 00:30:45,222 There've been allega- tions that de Mohrenschildt 606 00:30:45,223 --> 00:30:47,083 was somehow connected to the CIA. 607 00:30:47,097 --> 00:30:48,364 Is that possible? 608 00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:52,433 - I think it's possible, but it's an allegation. 609 00:30:52,713 --> 00:30:53,713 You know... 610 00:30:53,966 --> 00:30:57,886 - It's only a theory, but we have to take it very seriously 611 00:30:57,911 --> 00:31:02,911 that Ruth Paine was acting as a babysitter for Marina. 612 00:31:03,463 --> 00:31:07,112 She's arranged to do all kinds of things for Marina 613 00:31:07,113 --> 00:31:09,542 the way that George Mohrenschildt used to do, 614 00:31:09,543 --> 00:31:12,242 take her to medical appointments and so on. 615 00:31:12,243 --> 00:31:14,802 - I was lonely and this was somebody to talk to, 616 00:31:14,803 --> 00:31:17,382 somebody that could help me with Russian, 617 00:31:17,383 --> 00:31:21,354 and that's really why I invited Marina 618 00:31:21,379 --> 00:31:23,252 to stay at the house when I did. 619 00:31:25,303 --> 00:31:27,345 From the time Ruth met the Oswalds 620 00:31:27,370 --> 00:31:30,825 until the assassination was exactly nine months, 621 00:31:30,943 --> 00:31:35,556 from February 22nd to November 22nd, 1963. 622 00:31:36,513 --> 00:31:38,312 For nearly half that time, 623 00:31:38,313 --> 00:31:40,725 the Oswalds actually lived in New Orleans. 624 00:31:41,323 --> 00:31:43,152 It wasn't until late-September 625 00:31:43,153 --> 00:31:44,777 that Marina moved in with Ruth, 626 00:31:45,263 --> 00:31:47,476 just two months before the assassination. 627 00:31:51,313 --> 00:31:53,612 - At the end of Lee's New Orleans stay, 628 00:31:53,613 --> 00:31:55,364 it was arranged for Ruth Paine to travel 629 00:31:55,389 --> 00:31:59,429 with Marina all the way from New Orleans back to Dallas. 630 00:31:59,483 --> 00:32:01,632 And you have to ask: Was that simply done 631 00:32:01,633 --> 00:32:03,631 out of the goodness of Ruth Paine's heart? 632 00:32:03,741 --> 00:32:05,987 You are supposed to have brought Marina 633 00:32:06,012 --> 00:32:09,413 and the gun from New Orleans to Dallas. 634 00:32:09,463 --> 00:32:12,873 Was there any such gun that you traveled with Marina with? 635 00:32:13,406 --> 00:32:16,536 - I was certainly unaware of there being a gun at all, 636 00:32:16,561 --> 00:32:18,614 either in my car or in the garage. 637 00:32:19,823 --> 00:32:21,403 I didn't know that Oswald had one, 638 00:32:21,441 --> 00:32:23,904 but I can read the papers. 639 00:32:23,935 --> 00:32:26,125 I can judge that he must have had one. 640 00:32:26,213 --> 00:32:28,592 And as near as I can figure out, 641 00:32:28,593 --> 00:32:30,112 it's possible it was in my car 642 00:32:30,113 --> 00:32:32,882 when I took Marina and her baby 643 00:32:32,883 --> 00:32:35,062 and most of their worldly goods 644 00:32:35,063 --> 00:32:38,956 from New Orleans in September of '63. 645 00:32:41,229 --> 00:32:45,629 - I've always called Oswald a politicized sociopath. 646 00:32:46,083 --> 00:32:49,293 Had Oswald lived, I think he would've been upset 647 00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:52,319 that people took the credit away from him for doing it. 648 00:32:52,390 --> 00:32:54,043 He had that kind of mentality. 649 00:32:56,478 --> 00:32:59,672 - He suddenly realized he had an opportunity 650 00:32:59,893 --> 00:33:03,002 to no longer be a little guy, 651 00:33:03,003 --> 00:33:05,811 but to be someone extraordinary. 652 00:33:06,154 --> 00:33:07,874 Did you kill the president? 653 00:33:07,904 --> 00:33:09,578 - No, I've not been charged with that. 654 00:33:09,614 --> 00:33:11,806 In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. 655 00:33:12,353 --> 00:33:13,382 First thing I heard about it 656 00:33:13,383 --> 00:33:15,322 was when the newspaper reporters 657 00:33:15,323 --> 00:33:18,526 in the hall asked me that question. 658 00:33:19,181 --> 00:33:20,181 - Okay. 659 00:33:20,292 --> 00:33:21,785 What did you do in Russia? 660 00:33:23,088 --> 00:33:27,078 - Lee resented that people didn't see in him his potential, 661 00:33:27,103 --> 00:33:28,289 how great he was. 662 00:33:28,833 --> 00:33:31,202 He's a kid who just turned 24 years old 663 00:33:31,203 --> 00:33:33,733 who has defected to Russia in the heart of the Cold War, 664 00:33:33,765 --> 00:33:36,961 goes to New Orleans and forms a pro-Castro organization, 665 00:33:37,253 --> 00:33:38,302 goes to Mexico City 666 00:33:38,303 --> 00:33:40,509 and tries to get to the revolution in Cuba. 667 00:33:40,814 --> 00:33:42,559 He's done a lot by 24. 668 00:33:42,584 --> 00:33:44,026 - I think it's a lone wolf thing, 669 00:33:44,051 --> 00:33:47,198 that he probably wanted to make a mark on society. 670 00:33:47,293 --> 00:33:48,892 Suddenly occurred to him that he could. 671 00:33:49,447 --> 00:33:52,487 - He was proud of what he had done. 672 00:33:52,512 --> 00:33:54,002 - He was intelligent. 673 00:33:54,158 --> 00:33:55,802 He was dyslexic. 674 00:33:56,153 --> 00:34:00,825 - He believed violence was the only effective tool. 675 00:34:00,850 --> 00:34:02,907 - Almost from the beginning of this case, 676 00:34:02,932 --> 00:34:05,695 her and Michael are always there 677 00:34:05,723 --> 00:34:09,857 to discredit Oswald, to caricature Oswald, 678 00:34:09,882 --> 00:34:13,263 to say he wanted to be a big man in history, 679 00:34:13,346 --> 00:34:15,564 which of course makes no sense at all. 680 00:34:15,847 --> 00:34:17,860 Because if that's what Oswald was doing, 681 00:34:18,153 --> 00:34:19,753 then he would've admitted that he did it! 682 00:34:20,312 --> 00:34:21,581 But he never did! 683 00:34:21,602 --> 00:34:23,922 And in fact, he said just the opposite. "I'm just a patsy." 684 00:34:24,190 --> 00:34:25,544 Did you shoot the president? 685 00:34:25,569 --> 00:34:26,669 No, they've taken me in 686 00:34:26,693 --> 00:34:29,156 because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. 687 00:34:29,738 --> 00:34:31,735 I'm just a patsy! - Did you shoot the president? 688 00:34:34,193 --> 00:34:36,932 - Here's a man who feels that life has been tough 689 00:34:36,933 --> 00:34:39,161 and he hasn't got a proper deal. 690 00:34:39,707 --> 00:34:40,808 - I don't know what kind of facts 691 00:34:40,832 --> 00:34:41,876 you people have been given, 692 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:43,973 but I emphatically deny these charges. 693 00:34:45,251 --> 00:34:47,860 - Here's a guy who learns Russian in the marines, 694 00:34:48,206 --> 00:34:50,856 leaves the marines under false pretenses, 695 00:34:50,963 --> 00:34:52,772 goes to the Soviet Union, 696 00:34:52,773 --> 00:34:56,773 supposedly gives away secrets to the Soviets, 697 00:34:56,806 --> 00:35:00,799 gives up his citizenship, decides he wants to come back, 698 00:35:00,893 --> 00:35:02,730 the government pays his way back. 699 00:35:03,403 --> 00:35:08,032 - This is a guy who had worked at a CIA U-2 spy base 700 00:35:08,033 --> 00:35:09,360 as a radar operator. 701 00:35:09,527 --> 00:35:11,257 He knew a lot of the codes. 702 00:35:11,283 --> 00:35:12,642 He then defects to Russia, 703 00:35:12,643 --> 00:35:14,812 promises to turn over state secrets 704 00:35:14,813 --> 00:35:16,288 at the height of the Cold War. 705 00:35:17,173 --> 00:35:20,322 He's there for 20 months, returns with a Russian wife, 706 00:35:20,323 --> 00:35:21,716 and he's not arrested? 707 00:35:23,143 --> 00:35:24,373 Who's he working for? 708 00:35:25,933 --> 00:35:27,842 - He's a communist in Dallas, 709 00:35:27,843 --> 00:35:31,102 but all of his friends are white Russian anti-communists 710 00:35:31,103 --> 00:35:33,096 or people connected with the CIA. 711 00:35:34,983 --> 00:35:36,742 Central to many of the theories 712 00:35:36,743 --> 00:35:40,463 is the idea that Oswald was actually a fake defector 713 00:35:40,473 --> 00:35:42,698 sent to the Soviet Union as a spy. 714 00:35:43,562 --> 00:35:44,972 Seen through that lens, 715 00:35:44,983 --> 00:35:48,063 everything Oswald does leading up to the assassination 716 00:35:48,088 --> 00:35:49,345 has a different meaning. 717 00:35:50,603 --> 00:35:52,913 Was he continuing to do intelligence work, 718 00:35:52,946 --> 00:35:54,762 infiltrating radical groups? 719 00:35:55,373 --> 00:35:58,366 Was he manipulated into place by larger forces? 720 00:35:59,965 --> 00:36:01,134 Are you a Marxist? 721 00:36:01,162 --> 00:36:02,253 - I would very definitely say 722 00:36:02,277 --> 00:36:04,797 that I am a Marxist, that is correct. 723 00:36:04,874 --> 00:36:07,877 But that does not mean, however, that I'm a communist. 724 00:36:07,917 --> 00:36:09,880 What is the difference between the two? 725 00:36:09,921 --> 00:36:11,405 - Well, there's a great deal of difference. 726 00:36:11,421 --> 00:36:14,509 Several American parties in several countries 727 00:36:14,533 --> 00:36:17,793 are based on Marxism, such as Guyana, Ghana. 728 00:36:18,363 --> 00:36:20,362 Certain countries have characteristics 729 00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:21,822 of a socialist system, 730 00:36:21,850 --> 00:36:24,700 such as Great Britain with its socialized medicine. 731 00:36:24,823 --> 00:36:26,082 These then are the differences 732 00:36:26,083 --> 00:36:28,212 between an outright communist country 733 00:36:28,213 --> 00:36:32,059 and countries which adhere to leftist or Marxist principles. 734 00:36:33,987 --> 00:36:36,847 - My guest this morning is Priscilla Johnson McMillan, 735 00:36:36,865 --> 00:36:39,035 author of "Marina and Lee." 736 00:36:39,923 --> 00:36:41,442 I wanna talk to you about the time 737 00:36:41,443 --> 00:36:44,361 you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald in Russia. 738 00:36:44,386 --> 00:36:46,604 - Yes. - What kind of a man was he? 739 00:36:47,223 --> 00:36:53,210 - Forlorn, lonely, pathetic, lost, seeming to need help. 740 00:36:54,823 --> 00:36:59,069 I returned to Russia in 1958. 741 00:36:59,186 --> 00:37:04,186 It was during that time that I met Lee Harvey Oswald. 742 00:37:04,383 --> 00:37:08,407 I wrote a story about him as a defector 743 00:37:08,438 --> 00:37:13,438 who was very unusual, if not nonexistent at that time, 744 00:37:13,633 --> 00:37:18,463 someone who claimed that he wanted to live permanently 745 00:37:18,488 --> 00:37:21,691 in the Soviet Union because he was a Marxist. 746 00:37:22,823 --> 00:37:25,442 He said he hated the United States 747 00:37:25,443 --> 00:37:28,032 and that the Russians he dealt with 748 00:37:28,033 --> 00:37:29,922 had all treated him very well. 749 00:37:29,923 --> 00:37:34,115 He did tell me that he would give the Russians 750 00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:36,933 any secrets that he possessed, 751 00:37:38,802 --> 00:37:43,802 but I assumed he didn't possess any. 752 00:37:44,129 --> 00:37:49,728 I could see that he was angry, but not off-the-scale angry. 753 00:37:50,056 --> 00:37:54,063 In fact, I thought it might be acting a little bit. 754 00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:00,272 - It's just a little too contrived 755 00:38:00,273 --> 00:38:02,912 that you happened to know Oswald in Russia, 756 00:38:02,913 --> 00:38:06,892 you then wrote a book absolving all of those people 757 00:38:06,893 --> 00:38:08,652 who were suspected in conspiracies, 758 00:38:08,653 --> 00:38:10,958 that you happened to work for the State Department, 759 00:38:11,001 --> 00:38:12,034 and that you- 760 00:38:12,059 --> 00:38:13,269 - Well I didn't- - Happened to notice 761 00:38:13,293 --> 00:38:15,407 the initials CIA tattooed on your back- 762 00:38:17,632 --> 00:38:20,192 - Well, I translated for the State Department 763 00:38:20,217 --> 00:38:22,737 for a month in 1956- - Aha. 764 00:38:22,763 --> 00:38:26,433 - But three years before I became a journalist. 765 00:38:26,458 --> 00:38:31,608 And I would never have done such a thing, wear two hats. 766 00:38:32,773 --> 00:38:35,572 In 1967, Joseph Stalin's daughter 767 00:38:35,573 --> 00:38:37,177 defected to the US. 768 00:38:37,623 --> 00:38:40,932 The person the CIA selected to help her put out a book 769 00:38:40,933 --> 00:38:42,911 on the horrors of Russian communism 770 00:38:42,936 --> 00:38:45,181 was Priscilla Johnson McMillan. 771 00:38:45,452 --> 00:38:49,172 - I did translate Svetlana Alliluyeva's book. 772 00:38:49,205 --> 00:38:52,070 And I didn't know it at the time, 773 00:38:52,095 --> 00:38:55,478 but that was a CIA operation from the get-go. 774 00:38:56,543 --> 00:38:58,978 You didn't need to know that story, 775 00:38:59,283 --> 00:39:01,512 but I certainly wouldn't tell it 776 00:39:01,513 --> 00:39:03,516 to the conspiracy theorists either. 777 00:39:03,887 --> 00:39:04,927 They might make something- 778 00:39:04,952 --> 00:39:06,800 They wouldn't know what to make of it, 779 00:39:06,893 --> 00:39:07,922 do you know what I mean? 780 00:39:07,923 --> 00:39:09,166 It's too complicated. 781 00:39:12,033 --> 00:39:13,702 - According to polling by Gallup, 782 00:39:13,703 --> 00:39:15,912 a majority of Americans have always believed 783 00:39:15,913 --> 00:39:18,652 assassin Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone. 784 00:39:18,653 --> 00:39:23,312 The number peaked at a whopping 81% of Americans in 1976. 785 00:39:23,313 --> 00:39:26,072 That was shortly after the Zapruder film was released. 786 00:39:26,115 --> 00:39:27,605 A majority of nearly every 787 00:39:27,629 --> 00:39:29,047 demographic group across the country 788 00:39:29,072 --> 00:39:30,832 believes others were involved in the killing, 789 00:39:30,993 --> 00:39:32,683 with the exception of one group 790 00:39:32,707 --> 00:39:34,318 whites with a college degree. 791 00:39:34,501 --> 00:39:36,310 - The principal argument 792 00:39:36,336 --> 00:39:38,446 in defense of the Warren Commission conclusion 793 00:39:38,588 --> 00:39:40,783 is an argument from authority. 794 00:39:41,422 --> 00:39:45,512 And invariably, you're asked to weigh the differences 795 00:39:45,523 --> 00:39:46,927 between the sources. 796 00:39:47,597 --> 00:39:48,967 On the one hand, you have 797 00:39:49,003 --> 00:39:50,872 the chief justice of the United States, 798 00:39:50,873 --> 00:39:52,943 the former head of the Central Intelligence Agency, 799 00:39:52,968 --> 00:39:54,018 Allen Dulles. 800 00:39:54,062 --> 00:39:55,942 You have congressmen and senators 801 00:39:55,973 --> 00:39:58,355 serving on the Warren Com- mission, including Gerald Ford. 802 00:39:59,043 --> 00:40:01,102 These are the people who have come up 803 00:40:01,103 --> 00:40:04,500 with the facts and conclusions that proved Oswald did it. 804 00:40:04,823 --> 00:40:06,203 And on the other hand, 805 00:40:06,228 --> 00:40:09,418 you have these kinda crackpot skeptics out there, 806 00:40:09,469 --> 00:40:14,697 can't get a job, disaffected, hate America, commie leftists. 807 00:40:14,863 --> 00:40:16,313 Who are you going to believe? 808 00:40:17,127 --> 00:40:18,405 I mean, really! 809 00:40:21,148 --> 00:40:23,528 - There have been different generations 810 00:40:23,553 --> 00:40:25,466 of conspiracy thinking. 811 00:40:26,403 --> 00:40:27,942 At the very beginning, 812 00:40:27,943 --> 00:40:31,475 there were about a half-dozen people 813 00:40:31,516 --> 00:40:33,509 and they were very savage. 814 00:40:34,063 --> 00:40:35,932 It makes life much simpler 815 00:40:35,933 --> 00:40:39,507 if you think that events of great importance happened 816 00:40:39,533 --> 00:40:41,442 because they was a conspiracy. 817 00:40:41,443 --> 00:40:43,582 It's very threatening to think 818 00:40:43,583 --> 00:40:46,076 they can happen for trivial reasons. 819 00:40:52,963 --> 00:40:56,042 Who is likely to have wanted Kennedy dead? 820 00:40:56,043 --> 00:40:57,972 You'd have to say the CIA, 821 00:40:57,973 --> 00:40:59,911 but perhaps also the military as well. 822 00:41:02,214 --> 00:41:03,797 - What kind of a peace do I mean 823 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,743 and what kind of a peace do we seek? 824 00:41:07,293 --> 00:41:11,882 Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world 825 00:41:11,883 --> 00:41:13,526 by American weapons of war. 826 00:41:14,743 --> 00:41:17,292 Both the United States and its allies 827 00:41:17,293 --> 00:41:19,742 and the Soviet Union and its allies 828 00:41:19,743 --> 00:41:24,743 have a mutually deep interest in a just and genuine peace 829 00:41:24,819 --> 00:41:26,672 and in halting the arms race. 830 00:41:27,053 --> 00:41:31,056 We are both devoting massive sums of money to weapons 831 00:41:31,793 --> 00:41:33,822 that could be better devoted 832 00:41:33,823 --> 00:41:37,232 to combat ignorance, poverty, and disease. 833 00:41:37,813 --> 00:41:41,978 We are both caught up in a vicious and dangerous cycle. 834 00:41:47,373 --> 00:41:49,463 - Kennedy was telling people privately 835 00:41:49,488 --> 00:41:51,168 that once he got re-elected, 836 00:41:51,203 --> 00:41:52,532 he was going to back out of Vietnam 837 00:41:52,533 --> 00:41:54,572 and he was not going to commit forces of the United States 838 00:41:54,573 --> 00:41:55,816 to a land war in Asia. 839 00:41:56,726 --> 00:41:58,775 He had infuriated them with the Bay of Pigs. 840 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,140 He infuriated them with the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. 841 00:42:01,165 --> 00:42:04,095 He infuriated them during the Cuban Missile Crisis. 842 00:42:04,106 --> 00:42:06,055 And he was not gonna let them have their war. 843 00:42:07,763 --> 00:42:08,972 Next. 844 00:42:08,973 --> 00:42:10,572 Very, very few people were ever allowed 845 00:42:10,573 --> 00:42:13,704 the intimate details I'm sure Kennedy was taken out, 846 00:42:13,743 --> 00:42:16,863 and anyone who doubts the official statements 847 00:42:16,888 --> 00:42:18,371 of US government is crazy! 848 00:42:20,093 --> 00:42:21,372 - When you do look into the issues 849 00:42:21,373 --> 00:42:23,433 conspiracy theorists raise, 850 00:42:23,461 --> 00:42:25,473 sometimes you find a good answer, 851 00:42:26,043 --> 00:42:28,730 but conspiracy theorists are unwilling to accept it. 852 00:42:28,873 --> 00:42:32,052 And this includes everything from the shooting sequence 853 00:42:32,053 --> 00:42:35,372 to Oswald's relationship with the CIA 854 00:42:35,373 --> 00:42:37,796 and the FBI and the Cubans. 855 00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:40,450 The Warren Commission wasn't perfect. 856 00:42:40,623 --> 00:42:42,722 But for a lot of the conspiracy theorists, 857 00:42:42,723 --> 00:42:44,022 it approaches a faith. 858 00:42:44,023 --> 00:42:45,542 It's a belief system. 859 00:42:45,543 --> 00:42:47,662 - You'll see that your own patriotic view 860 00:42:47,663 --> 00:42:50,892 and faith in America may strongly color your view 861 00:42:50,893 --> 00:42:51,893 of the Kennedy case. 862 00:42:53,063 --> 00:42:55,673 If you're a believer in America's good faith, 863 00:42:55,702 --> 00:42:58,322 the integrity of its fundamental institutions, 864 00:42:58,583 --> 00:43:01,862 you're liable to try to filter your understanding 865 00:43:01,863 --> 00:43:04,586 of the Kennedy case and much else through that prism. 866 00:43:05,583 --> 00:43:06,752 - Well, I think it's healthy 867 00:43:06,753 --> 00:43:09,342 to be skeptical about the government. 868 00:43:09,343 --> 00:43:12,482 But to believe that there could be a coup d'état 869 00:43:12,483 --> 00:43:14,932 in the United States carried out 870 00:43:14,933 --> 00:43:17,132 or at least tolerated by the government 871 00:43:17,133 --> 00:43:18,722 against the president, 872 00:43:18,723 --> 00:43:21,992 that's a very cynical view of the government 873 00:43:21,993 --> 00:43:23,986 and I think that that's corrosive. 874 00:43:29,533 --> 00:43:31,442 Just north of Martha's Vineyard, 875 00:43:31,443 --> 00:43:34,146 off Cape Cod, lies Naushon Island. 876 00:43:34,989 --> 00:43:36,518 This seven mile long island 877 00:43:36,543 --> 00:43:38,192 has been a privately owned getaway 878 00:43:38,193 --> 00:43:41,390 for the Forbes family for more than 150 years. 879 00:43:42,666 --> 00:43:44,146 Naushon Island is the stuff 880 00:43:44,173 --> 00:43:46,476 that conspiracy dreams are made of. 881 00:43:47,533 --> 00:43:49,483 Among the many members of the Forbes clan 882 00:43:49,506 --> 00:43:51,953 who have vacationed on the island over the years 883 00:43:52,037 --> 00:43:53,845 are Michael and Ruth Paine. 884 00:43:54,842 --> 00:43:56,828 Michael Paine's mother was a Forbes, 885 00:43:57,283 --> 00:44:00,126 and he spent summers on Naushon Island since childhood. 886 00:44:01,013 --> 00:44:02,712 One of his mother's closest friends 887 00:44:02,713 --> 00:44:04,888 was a woman named Mary Bancroft. 888 00:44:05,593 --> 00:44:06,902 Bancroft was a spy 889 00:44:06,903 --> 00:44:09,816 and longtime mistress of CIA Director Allen Dulles. 890 00:44:10,673 --> 00:44:14,196 Dulles and Bancroft were invited to stay on Naushon Island. 891 00:44:15,843 --> 00:44:18,792 - Mary Bancroft knew the Paines intimately 892 00:44:18,793 --> 00:44:20,772 and saw Michael at a young age, 893 00:44:20,773 --> 00:44:24,351 and so she could turn to her partner, Allen Dulles, 894 00:44:24,376 --> 00:44:25,965 and tell him, "You want some people on the left? 895 00:44:25,989 --> 00:44:27,019 I know some people on the left 896 00:44:27,043 --> 00:44:28,482 that could be a big help to you." 897 00:44:28,483 --> 00:44:31,832 So, you got a direct line to the top of the CIA right there, 898 00:44:31,833 --> 00:44:34,843 which I think is the most telling thing of all 899 00:44:34,885 --> 00:44:36,516 of the Paine saga. 900 00:44:37,082 --> 00:44:40,666 - Naushon Island was kind of a hideaway 901 00:44:40,833 --> 00:44:43,437 for these extraordinarily wealthy people. 902 00:44:43,673 --> 00:44:45,422 People with tens of millions 903 00:44:45,423 --> 00:44:47,269 if not hundreds of millions of dollars. 904 00:44:48,053 --> 00:44:53,305 Ruth Paine visited Naushon Island that summer of 1963, 905 00:44:53,612 --> 00:44:57,875 even though she's supposed to be estranged from her husband. 906 00:44:59,333 --> 00:45:01,092 - While you're making connections, 907 00:45:01,093 --> 00:45:03,273 my mother-in-law knew Allen Dulles, 908 00:45:04,536 --> 00:45:06,720 so obviously there's a plot. 909 00:45:09,294 --> 00:45:12,904 Michael has a long list of relatives and goes back 910 00:45:12,923 --> 00:45:14,883 and he's got somebody that signed 911 00:45:14,908 --> 00:45:18,271 the Declaration of Independence in his forebears. 912 00:45:19,233 --> 00:45:22,133 In fact, Michael Paine traces his lineage 913 00:45:22,137 --> 00:45:25,001 to several famous elite Boston families, 914 00:45:25,623 --> 00:45:27,739 not only the Forbes and the Paines 915 00:45:28,183 --> 00:45:30,774 but also the Cabots and the Emersons. 916 00:45:31,353 --> 00:45:35,296 His great-great-grandfather was Ralph Waldo Emerson. 917 00:45:36,656 --> 00:45:39,796 - His great-uncle, who was a really lovely man, 918 00:45:39,843 --> 00:45:43,432 was the governor general of the Philippines 919 00:45:43,433 --> 00:45:44,933 when the Philippines came to us 920 00:45:44,955 --> 00:45:47,824 after the Spanish-American War. 921 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:54,458 More conservative, I guess, but very interesting people 922 00:45:54,483 --> 00:45:56,481 and concerned also about the world. 923 00:45:56,925 --> 00:46:01,355 Michael's father was a declared Trotskyite, 924 00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:03,220 met with a little group of people 925 00:46:03,263 --> 00:46:05,884 that wanted society to change 926 00:46:05,909 --> 00:46:07,889 and were working on how to do that. 927 00:46:07,983 --> 00:46:12,316 They were at no point interested in violent actions. 928 00:46:14,013 --> 00:46:16,226 But there's two branches of the Forbes. 929 00:46:16,438 --> 00:46:18,388 There's the guys who put out the magazine 930 00:46:18,413 --> 00:46:20,486 and are sort of the wealthier brand, 931 00:46:20,523 --> 00:46:23,203 and then the ones that had an island 932 00:46:23,243 --> 00:46:26,801 off the coast of Massachusetts, what's Michael's group. 933 00:46:27,333 --> 00:46:29,593 So, yeah, I spent a few summers there. 934 00:46:30,203 --> 00:46:32,822 Nice folks. I liked the family. 935 00:46:32,823 --> 00:46:35,379 So, Michael comes from a very rich family, 936 00:46:35,380 --> 00:46:37,772 but you guys lived pretty modestly in Dallas? 937 00:46:37,773 --> 00:46:39,014 Yes, exactly. 938 00:46:39,233 --> 00:46:41,692 Did he have any sort of trust fund 939 00:46:41,693 --> 00:46:43,016 from the Forbes family? 940 00:46:43,763 --> 00:46:45,956 - Well, he had an account. 941 00:46:47,309 --> 00:46:50,130 There's a... 942 00:46:50,154 --> 00:46:52,872 investment company 943 00:46:53,313 --> 00:46:55,512 that holds accounts for anybody, 944 00:46:55,513 --> 00:46:58,992 but a number of members of the family were invested there, 945 00:46:58,993 --> 00:47:01,106 and it's called the JM Forbes and Company. 946 00:47:02,826 --> 00:47:04,896 So, yeah, he had an account there. 947 00:47:05,023 --> 00:47:09,463 Michael felt it wasn't money he earned, just came to him. 948 00:47:09,497 --> 00:47:13,862 And I think we've forgotten the whole concept 949 00:47:13,887 --> 00:47:15,508 of noblesse oblige. 950 00:47:15,533 --> 00:47:16,835 If much is given to you, 951 00:47:16,836 --> 00:47:18,936 there's much you should be giving back. 952 00:47:20,033 --> 00:47:22,856 But that was definitely a feeling of the family. 953 00:47:29,381 --> 00:47:31,146 - When I first heard of Lee, 954 00:47:31,171 --> 00:47:33,461 I was sort of looked forward with eagerness 955 00:47:33,486 --> 00:47:35,905 to an opportunity to talk with someone 956 00:47:36,271 --> 00:47:39,027 with whom I didn't believe I would agree, 957 00:47:39,063 --> 00:47:40,699 but at least it was interesting to talk to a man 958 00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:43,780 who had been to Russia and who apparently had his own opinions. 959 00:47:44,323 --> 00:47:46,352 I would say he was the kind of person 960 00:47:46,743 --> 00:47:51,733 who likes to put himself in a position of a belligerence. 961 00:47:51,903 --> 00:47:55,202 - Michael claimed he only met with Lee Oswald six times. 962 00:47:55,203 --> 00:47:58,062 They went to both left wing and right wing meetings 963 00:47:58,063 --> 00:47:59,492 during those six times, 964 00:47:59,493 --> 00:48:01,472 which is probably some kind of record. 965 00:48:01,473 --> 00:48:04,882 - All I want to say is this about Michael Paine. 966 00:48:04,883 --> 00:48:07,262 I met him only once. 967 00:48:07,263 --> 00:48:09,022 He didn't make any pretense. 968 00:48:09,023 --> 00:48:12,892 He told me that he and Oswald would go 969 00:48:12,893 --> 00:48:14,301 to right wing meetings. 970 00:48:14,723 --> 00:48:17,062 - We discovered we were both interested in the activities 971 00:48:17,063 --> 00:48:19,072 of right wing groups in Dallas, 972 00:48:19,073 --> 00:48:21,386 which were common, numerous, at that time. 973 00:48:22,445 --> 00:48:26,475 And I think he described his activities as spying on them. 974 00:48:26,543 --> 00:48:29,362 Did you ever have a chance to talk about, 975 00:48:29,363 --> 00:48:32,554 Cuban communism or Castro communism? 976 00:48:33,426 --> 00:48:35,926 - He did mention that and it was unfamiliar to me, 977 00:48:35,973 --> 00:48:37,872 so I didn't, didn't take it up. 978 00:48:37,873 --> 00:48:39,685 He just happened to mention it briefly 979 00:48:39,710 --> 00:48:42,375 and when it was brought to my attention I did recall 980 00:48:42,382 --> 00:48:43,760 that he had said something to me. 981 00:48:46,303 --> 00:48:48,982 - Michael liked to pose provoking students 982 00:48:48,983 --> 00:48:51,692 to talk about their Cuba beliefs, 983 00:48:51,693 --> 00:48:54,074 portraying himself as a pro-Cuban guy, 984 00:48:54,099 --> 00:48:55,532 which he certainly was not. 985 00:48:56,183 --> 00:48:59,962 Very weird and suspicious activity. 986 00:48:59,963 --> 00:49:02,323 That's what you do when you're trying to smoke somebody out. 987 00:49:03,153 --> 00:49:05,783 - His father was George Lyman Paine, 988 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,992 a leading Trotskyist on the West Coast. 989 00:49:09,822 --> 00:49:11,702 Michael Paine works for Bell Helicopter, 990 00:49:11,727 --> 00:49:13,740 has secret clearance. 991 00:49:14,372 --> 00:49:16,786 You don't get that without a quid pro quo. 992 00:49:17,042 --> 00:49:18,182 He's an agent. 993 00:49:18,207 --> 00:49:19,507 You know that immediately. 994 00:49:21,067 --> 00:49:23,977 Is it true he had a security clearance there? 995 00:49:24,219 --> 00:49:25,514 It was a military contractor. 996 00:49:25,553 --> 00:49:28,196 - Well, I would think it would be, have to be, yeah. 997 00:49:28,220 --> 00:49:30,039 He had been working for his father-in-law 998 00:49:30,305 --> 00:49:32,075 who invented the Bell Helicopter 999 00:49:32,963 --> 00:49:36,616 and was doing research on vertical takeoff and landing. 1000 00:49:38,185 --> 00:49:40,899 Bell Helicopter has been a major military supplier 1001 00:49:40,923 --> 00:49:42,572 since the 1940s. 1002 00:49:42,901 --> 00:49:46,928 Their model UH-1 Huey became an icon of the Vietnam War. 1003 00:49:47,322 --> 00:49:50,032 As the war expanded under the Johnson administration 1004 00:49:50,057 --> 00:49:51,838 sales skyrocketed. 1005 00:50:06,843 --> 00:50:09,722 - Something big about the Ruth Paine story 1006 00:50:09,723 --> 00:50:11,206 simply doesn't gel. 1007 00:50:12,518 --> 00:50:14,858 My thinking about the Paines is you'll never find a piece 1008 00:50:14,883 --> 00:50:16,890 of paper 'cause they weren't formally hired. 1009 00:50:17,373 --> 00:50:18,852 I think they would do little favors 1010 00:50:18,853 --> 00:50:22,070 for someone like Allen Dulles, out of patriotism. 1011 00:50:22,843 --> 00:50:24,072 I don't know anybody who thinks 1012 00:50:24,073 --> 00:50:26,806 they were part of the plot to kill the president. 1013 00:50:27,228 --> 00:50:29,108 But a lot of us, including me, 1014 00:50:29,111 --> 00:50:31,354 think that they might have been manipulated 1015 00:50:31,780 --> 00:50:35,704 to do certain things like invite Lee to a job 1016 00:50:35,745 --> 00:50:38,912 at the book depository a month before the assassination. 1017 00:50:39,249 --> 00:50:42,399 Mrs. Paine, did you help him obtain the job 1018 00:50:42,424 --> 00:50:45,777 that he had at the Texas School Book Depository? 1019 00:50:46,403 --> 00:50:48,775 - Well, it came about through a coincidence. 1020 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,670 I was having coffee with a neighbor. 1021 00:50:51,005 --> 00:50:52,455 Marina was there also. 1022 00:50:52,554 --> 00:50:54,242 - She was still trying to learn English. 1023 00:50:54,264 --> 00:50:57,528 So I knew that she really didn't follow the conversations. 1024 00:50:57,553 --> 00:51:01,162 So when we went home, I said that my neighbour mentioned 1025 00:51:01,163 --> 00:51:04,482 that there might be still some hiring 1026 00:51:04,483 --> 00:51:05,912 at the School Book Depository. 1027 00:51:05,913 --> 00:51:07,523 And she said, "Oh, could we find out? 1028 00:51:07,524 --> 00:51:10,106 Could you call and see whether they are hiring?" 1029 00:51:10,633 --> 00:51:12,852 - She makes the phone call on Monday. 1030 00:51:12,853 --> 00:51:15,092 And then he goes in for the interview on Tuesday 1031 00:51:15,093 --> 00:51:16,782 and he starts work on Wednesday. 1032 00:51:16,783 --> 00:51:18,462 The people involved in this plot 1033 00:51:18,463 --> 00:51:20,712 have done site selection in advance. 1034 00:51:20,713 --> 00:51:23,912 They're planning to murder President Kennedy on this trip. 1035 00:51:23,913 --> 00:51:26,772 Oswald is going to get a job at that building. 1036 00:51:26,773 --> 00:51:28,096 That's the set up. 1037 00:51:28,293 --> 00:51:29,632 - There have been published reports, 1038 00:51:29,633 --> 00:51:32,062 supposing that he may have been planted in that building, 1039 00:51:32,063 --> 00:51:33,942 by conspirators who wanted him there, 1040 00:51:33,967 --> 00:51:35,565 where he could fire at the president 1041 00:51:35,594 --> 00:51:37,784 or to get others in positions to do so. 1042 00:51:38,133 --> 00:51:40,322 But these witnesses before the Warren Commission, 1043 00:51:40,323 --> 00:51:41,362 told another version 1044 00:51:41,363 --> 00:51:43,780 of how and why Oswald was employed. 1045 00:51:44,393 --> 00:51:47,452 Mrs. Paine, who knew Oswald needed a job. 1046 00:51:47,453 --> 00:51:51,162 Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle, who knew where he might get one: 1047 00:51:51,163 --> 00:51:54,453 from Roy S. Truly, at the Texas School Book Depository. 1048 00:51:54,946 --> 00:51:57,244 - So I did call School Book Depository, 1049 00:51:57,253 --> 00:52:01,012 talked to Roy Truly and said, 1050 00:52:01,013 --> 00:52:03,392 there's this young man, has a wife and another baby 1051 00:52:03,393 --> 00:52:05,826 on the way and he's looking for a job, 1052 00:52:05,853 --> 00:52:08,486 and he doesn't drive which limits what he can do. 1053 00:52:10,423 --> 00:52:12,812 And I was wondering if there was an opening 1054 00:52:12,813 --> 00:52:15,072 and he wouldn't say whether there was an opening, 1055 00:52:15,073 --> 00:52:17,686 but he said, "Go ahead and let the young man come by." 1056 00:52:18,053 --> 00:52:21,685 So that's what I relayed to Lee 1057 00:52:21,702 --> 00:52:24,503 and then he did go to the School Book Depository 1058 00:52:24,528 --> 00:52:25,611 and ask for work. 1059 00:52:30,005 --> 00:52:31,345 You had made the comment, 1060 00:52:31,373 --> 00:52:33,189 I believe last week, if I'm not mistaken 1061 00:52:33,673 --> 00:52:37,082 that the FBI had been here, 1062 00:52:37,083 --> 00:52:38,455 is that correct, at your residence? 1063 00:52:38,456 --> 00:52:39,543 - Mm-hmm. 1064 00:52:39,544 --> 00:52:43,372 To visit apparently either Marina Oswald 1065 00:52:43,373 --> 00:52:45,357 or Lee Harvey Oswald or both. 1066 00:52:45,375 --> 00:52:47,745 What was the occasion of their visit? 1067 00:52:48,033 --> 00:52:52,283 - Well, the agent expressed to me 1068 00:52:52,295 --> 00:52:55,673 that it was routine for them to come to people 1069 00:52:55,715 --> 00:52:57,998 who had come to live in this country 1070 00:52:58,023 --> 00:52:59,849 from countries behind the iron curtain. 1071 00:53:01,459 --> 00:53:04,474 - At the time that Kennedy was killed, 1072 00:53:04,877 --> 00:53:09,171 the FBI had just received a letter postmarked from Dallas, 1073 00:53:09,293 --> 00:53:12,053 which was purported to be from Oswald, 1074 00:53:12,068 --> 00:53:15,868 was addressed to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. 1075 00:53:15,913 --> 00:53:20,012 This was an explosive conspiratorial letter. 1076 00:53:20,013 --> 00:53:23,052 There was actually a warrant drawn up 1077 00:53:23,053 --> 00:53:25,710 for his arrest for the murder of the president 1078 00:53:25,735 --> 00:53:28,163 as part of an international conspiracy. 1079 00:53:30,712 --> 00:53:32,532 - Lee asked to borrow my typewriter 1080 00:53:32,556 --> 00:53:34,407 and typed out a letter. 1081 00:53:34,591 --> 00:53:37,921 I went by and he sort of hid it 1082 00:53:37,933 --> 00:53:39,307 like he didn't want me to read it. 1083 00:53:39,333 --> 00:53:40,842 I thought that's kind of weird. 1084 00:53:40,843 --> 00:53:44,482 Later that evening, Michael came for dinner 1085 00:53:44,483 --> 00:53:46,922 and it gave us a chance to move some furniture. 1086 00:53:46,923 --> 00:53:49,072 I noticed Lee had left this letter 1087 00:53:49,073 --> 00:53:52,152 that it seemed like he didn't want me to read on my desk 1088 00:53:52,153 --> 00:53:55,462 and the desk was open, a little flip top secretary desk. 1089 00:53:55,463 --> 00:53:57,472 As we walked in to move furniture around, 1090 00:53:57,473 --> 00:54:01,862 I just closed the desk in it and had that letter in it. 1091 00:54:01,863 --> 00:54:03,762 - It was a letter that he was writing 1092 00:54:03,763 --> 00:54:05,932 to the Soviet Embassy in Washington, 1093 00:54:05,933 --> 00:54:08,783 trying to push for him and Marina to get a ticket 1094 00:54:08,788 --> 00:54:10,213 to go back to the Soviet Union. 1095 00:54:10,418 --> 00:54:13,148 - And he was saying that Comrade Kostin 1096 00:54:13,173 --> 00:54:16,849 with whom he had had meetings in Mexico City 1097 00:54:16,874 --> 00:54:20,708 and regrettably hadn't had time to complete our business. 1098 00:54:22,188 --> 00:54:25,128 According to a declassified CIA report, 1099 00:54:25,153 --> 00:54:28,292 the Comrade Kostin mentioned in Oswald's letter 1100 00:54:28,293 --> 00:54:31,812 is Valery Kostikov, a KGB agent, 1101 00:54:31,813 --> 00:54:35,402 believed to be involved in, quote, "executive action, 1102 00:54:35,403 --> 00:54:38,041 including sabotage and assassination." 1103 00:54:38,823 --> 00:54:41,112 The circumstances of the Kostin letter 1104 00:54:41,113 --> 00:54:43,022 are highly controversial 1105 00:54:43,023 --> 00:54:45,052 and many researchers believe this link 1106 00:54:45,053 --> 00:54:48,042 between Oswald and a communist assassin 1107 00:54:48,043 --> 00:54:50,643 was planted by the true conspirators. 1108 00:54:52,443 --> 00:54:54,033 So you talked to the FBI 1109 00:54:54,058 --> 00:54:57,092 on at least a couple of occasions about Oswald. 1110 00:54:57,093 --> 00:54:58,722 - Yes, earlier in October. 1111 00:54:58,723 --> 00:55:02,962 And then I was disturbed enough about this letter 1112 00:55:02,963 --> 00:55:05,672 that I made a copy of it 1113 00:55:05,673 --> 00:55:08,562 and thought, well, I'll just show it to the FBI guy 1114 00:55:08,563 --> 00:55:09,983 when he comes out next. 1115 00:55:10,163 --> 00:55:13,402 - You did give the FBI a letter 1116 00:55:13,403 --> 00:55:14,802 that was supposed to have been written 1117 00:55:14,803 --> 00:55:16,993 by a Lee to the Soviet Embassy, didn't you? 1118 00:55:17,229 --> 00:55:21,836 - This was a draft of a letter that he left on my desk 1119 00:55:21,861 --> 00:55:23,366 that concerned me very deeply 1120 00:55:23,383 --> 00:55:25,701 because I could see he was lying in it. 1121 00:55:25,952 --> 00:55:29,232 And he'd used my typewriter and that offended me deeply. 1122 00:55:29,536 --> 00:55:32,000 He left, it offended you that he lied 1123 00:55:32,038 --> 00:55:33,416 on your typewriter? - That he'd been lying 1124 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:34,534 on my typewriter, that's right. 1125 00:55:34,541 --> 00:55:36,355 I didn't know who he was writing, the letter just said, 1126 00:55:36,379 --> 00:55:37,459 "Dear Sirs." 1127 00:55:38,223 --> 00:55:39,773 - Ruth took that rough draft 1128 00:55:39,799 --> 00:55:41,870 without his knowledge or permission 1129 00:55:41,894 --> 00:55:43,316 and gave it to the FBI. 1130 00:55:43,869 --> 00:55:46,512 - Actually, I had this conversation with the FBI man. 1131 00:55:47,063 --> 00:55:51,909 He also was interested in preserving our rights 1132 00:55:51,933 --> 00:55:53,888 as outlined in the constitution. 1133 00:55:53,913 --> 00:55:57,566 And so he and I had a real understanding. 1134 00:55:57,633 --> 00:56:00,857 - Ruth plays a strange role in this letter. 1135 00:56:01,573 --> 00:56:03,062 The Soviets got the letter 1136 00:56:03,063 --> 00:56:06,066 and were convinced the letter was a phony. 1137 00:56:08,063 --> 00:56:10,588 Either he was making it up or it was a forgery. 1138 00:56:10,963 --> 00:56:14,806 They went so far as to accuse Ruth of having forged it. 1139 00:56:16,201 --> 00:56:17,334 Less than two weeks 1140 00:56:17,366 --> 00:56:19,532 after Ruth takes Oswald's letter, 1141 00:56:19,533 --> 00:56:21,140 President Kennedy is killed. 1142 00:56:27,383 --> 00:56:28,729 - We were both sitting here on the sofa, 1143 00:56:28,730 --> 00:56:30,962 watching the television when the news came 1144 00:56:30,963 --> 00:56:32,201 that he had been shot. 1145 00:56:32,665 --> 00:56:34,867 And I translated that to Marina 1146 00:56:35,723 --> 00:56:38,892 and we watched anxiously with the rest of the world 1147 00:56:38,893 --> 00:56:40,193 to hear what would happen. 1148 00:56:41,447 --> 00:56:43,464 And finally, we did hear that the president... 1149 00:56:44,531 --> 00:56:46,269 Soon after the assassination, 1150 00:56:46,563 --> 00:56:49,405 Michael calls Ruth from his job at Bell Helicopter. 1151 00:56:49,786 --> 00:56:52,311 Declassified FBI documents revealed 1152 00:56:52,336 --> 00:56:54,333 that their conversation was being monitored. 1153 00:56:54,913 --> 00:56:57,712 An informant reported that Michael was overheard 1154 00:56:57,713 --> 00:57:00,742 to comment that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald 1155 00:57:00,743 --> 00:57:01,842 had killed the president, 1156 00:57:01,843 --> 00:57:06,037 but did not feel Oswald was responsible and further stated, 1157 00:57:06,341 --> 00:57:08,760 "We both know who is responsible." 1158 00:57:11,417 --> 00:57:16,417 - According to the records, that phone call was made 1159 00:57:16,638 --> 00:57:20,908 about an hour after the assassination, 1160 00:57:20,933 --> 00:57:24,472 which means it was a few minutes before Oswald 1161 00:57:24,473 --> 00:57:26,986 was actually arrested for the crime. 1162 00:57:27,483 --> 00:57:30,312 - Pure, garbage. Pure garbage. 1163 00:57:30,313 --> 00:57:32,392 I did describe the phone call that Michael 1164 00:57:32,393 --> 00:57:34,882 and I had after the assassination, 1165 00:57:34,883 --> 00:57:38,282 when we were kind of commiserating with each other 1166 00:57:38,283 --> 00:57:40,452 about the Kennedy's killing 1167 00:57:40,453 --> 00:57:44,605 and thinking that it was a conspiracy 1168 00:57:44,606 --> 00:57:48,416 of right wing radicals, who'd done it. 1169 00:57:49,543 --> 00:57:52,029 So we both thought we knew 1170 00:57:52,762 --> 00:57:54,726 but we didn't know who had done it. 1171 00:57:59,147 --> 00:58:02,343 I hear that every now and then that one comes up. 1172 00:58:02,853 --> 00:58:04,654 Yeah, but... 1173 00:58:06,602 --> 00:58:08,027 just nothing to it. 1174 00:58:13,383 --> 00:58:15,262 On the morning after the assassination, 1175 00:58:15,263 --> 00:58:17,242 the first call the new president took 1176 00:58:17,243 --> 00:58:19,875 was from FBI director J. Edgar Hoover. 1177 00:58:20,423 --> 00:58:22,372 While we have the audio for all the other calls 1178 00:58:22,373 --> 00:58:26,149 from this period, for some reason this one was erased. 1179 00:58:30,573 --> 00:58:35,116 Luckily, a transcript of this call was declassified in 1993. 1180 00:58:36,723 --> 00:58:39,072 The topic of conversation was the evidence 1181 00:58:39,073 --> 00:58:40,726 against Lee Harvey Oswald. 1182 00:58:42,153 --> 00:58:44,952 "Have you established any more 1183 00:58:44,953 --> 00:58:47,272 about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico 1184 00:58:47,273 --> 00:58:48,306 in September?" 1185 00:58:49,773 --> 00:58:54,152 Hoover: "No, that's one angle that's very confusing 1186 00:58:54,153 --> 00:58:55,294 for this reason. 1187 00:58:55,723 --> 00:58:58,193 We have up here, the tape and the photograph of the man 1188 00:58:58,203 --> 00:59:02,026 who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name. 1189 00:59:02,653 --> 00:59:05,242 That picture and the tape do not correspond 1190 00:59:05,243 --> 00:59:08,096 to this man's voice nor to his appearance. 1191 00:59:09,013 --> 00:59:12,142 In other words, it appears that there is a second person 1192 00:59:12,143 --> 00:59:14,390 who was at the Soviet Embassy down there." 1193 00:59:18,743 --> 00:59:20,363 - Lee was... 1194 00:59:22,647 --> 00:59:23,647 In my opinion, 1195 00:59:23,683 --> 00:59:25,813 not somebody a spy agency would hire. 1196 00:59:25,838 --> 00:59:29,598 I couldn't see him as connected to the Soviet Union. 1197 00:59:29,623 --> 00:59:32,293 I think they were very happy to see him leave actually. 1198 00:59:33,404 --> 00:59:35,702 The possibility of a communist conspiracy 1199 00:59:35,740 --> 00:59:38,756 involving Oswald could have triggered World War III. 1200 00:59:39,414 --> 00:59:41,350 This was taken very seriously at the 1201 00:59:41,371 --> 00:59:43,000 highest levels of the government. 1202 00:59:47,589 --> 00:59:49,539 - Dick? - Yes? 1203 00:59:49,564 --> 00:59:51,574 You're my man on that commission. 1204 00:59:51,713 --> 00:59:54,339 And you're gonna do it and don't tell me what you can do 1205 00:59:54,340 --> 00:59:55,574 and what you can't. 1206 00:59:55,983 --> 00:59:59,025 This is a question that has a good many more ramifications 1207 00:59:59,050 --> 01:00:00,440 than on the surface. 1208 01:00:00,763 --> 01:00:03,346 We got to take this out of the arena 1209 01:00:03,355 --> 01:00:07,098 where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this 1210 01:00:07,123 --> 01:00:09,912 and did that and kicking us into a war 1211 01:00:09,913 --> 01:00:12,728 that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour. 1212 01:00:13,372 --> 01:00:14,879 Now, the reason I asked Warren is 1213 01:00:14,904 --> 01:00:17,512 because he's the Chief Justice of this country. 1214 01:00:17,646 --> 01:00:19,946 He came down here and he told me, "No," twice. 1215 01:00:21,206 --> 01:00:23,736 And I just pulled out what Hoover told me 1216 01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:25,590 about a little incident in Mexico City 1217 01:00:25,615 --> 01:00:30,555 and I said, now I don't want Mr. Khrushchev to be testifying 1218 01:00:30,583 --> 01:00:32,586 before camera that he killed this fella. 1219 01:00:33,218 --> 01:00:34,486 And he started crying and he said, 1220 01:00:34,510 --> 01:00:37,538 "Well I won't turn you down, I'll just do whatever you say." 1221 01:00:39,863 --> 01:00:42,242 It appears that LBJ bullied Earl Warren 1222 01:00:42,243 --> 01:00:43,602 into heading the commission 1223 01:00:43,603 --> 01:00:45,382 by giving him the impression 1224 01:00:45,383 --> 01:00:48,026 that there was evidence for a communist conspiracy, 1225 01:00:48,893 --> 01:00:51,312 painting Oswald as a lone nut may have been seen 1226 01:00:51,313 --> 01:00:54,135 as a moral imperative to avoid nuclear war. 1227 01:00:54,573 --> 01:00:57,972 But a cover up of Oswald's supposed communist ties 1228 01:00:57,973 --> 01:00:59,842 may actually have served as a cover up 1229 01:00:59,843 --> 01:01:03,331 for something even more sinister and closer to home. 1230 01:01:07,113 --> 01:01:11,315 - When the Dallas police went to the Paine household, 1231 01:01:11,340 --> 01:01:13,530 one of the detectives wrote a report 1232 01:01:13,583 --> 01:01:14,785 about taking out 1233 01:01:14,809 --> 01:01:17,562 several filing cabinets 1234 01:01:17,563 --> 01:01:21,005 of notations and cards and maps, et cetera, 1235 01:01:21,016 --> 01:01:22,509 of Castro sympathizers. 1236 01:01:23,763 --> 01:01:25,112 This makes a very good case. 1237 01:01:25,113 --> 01:01:28,222 I believe that Michael and Ruth were involved 1238 01:01:28,223 --> 01:01:31,207 in surveillance activities of the American left. 1239 01:01:32,133 --> 01:01:36,882 These cabinets existed until the Warren Commission 1240 01:01:36,883 --> 01:01:38,513 because there's several exhibit numbers 1241 01:01:38,529 --> 01:01:40,638 in the Warren Commission that referred to them. 1242 01:01:40,663 --> 01:01:42,273 But the big difference is 1243 01:01:42,298 --> 01:01:44,748 when the Warren Commission went through them, 1244 01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:47,269 they only found something like one letter 1245 01:01:47,283 --> 01:01:50,542 from Ruth to one of her relatives. 1246 01:01:50,543 --> 01:01:54,422 So in other words, if the original report is accurate, 1247 01:01:54,423 --> 01:01:59,156 somebody fiddled with the contents of those file cabinets. 1248 01:02:00,096 --> 01:02:02,446 - I learned a lot about what's written 1249 01:02:02,474 --> 01:02:06,057 isn't always true in newspapers and magazines. 1250 01:02:06,849 --> 01:02:13,276 One magazine said the police took out seven file boxes 1251 01:02:13,314 --> 01:02:15,621 of Cuba sympathizers' names. 1252 01:02:16,043 --> 01:02:20,634 Well, there were my three boxes of folk dance records, 1253 01:02:21,717 --> 01:02:26,446 my three little file boxes of my college papers 1254 01:02:26,683 --> 01:02:31,446 and a projector for a 16 millimeter camera. 1255 01:02:32,553 --> 01:02:36,406 Those with the seven boxes of Cuban names. 1256 01:02:38,513 --> 01:02:41,552 This is one of the so-called filing cabinets 1257 01:02:41,553 --> 01:02:45,412 that contained there's a report that they contain names 1258 01:02:45,413 --> 01:02:47,995 and info on Cuban sympathizers. 1259 01:02:48,020 --> 01:02:49,540 - Yeah, I think that's nonsense. 1260 01:02:49,713 --> 01:02:51,851 This is who I used to work for years ago. 1261 01:02:51,876 --> 01:02:54,826 I was a special agent, did background investigations 1262 01:02:54,853 --> 01:02:58,952 for the government and just, for security clearances. 1263 01:02:58,953 --> 01:03:03,042 So I've got an natural curiosity in 2013, 1264 01:03:03,043 --> 01:03:05,792 I found out that Ruth Paine was living right here 1265 01:03:05,793 --> 01:03:07,808 in Santa Rosa and a friendship developed. 1266 01:03:07,831 --> 01:03:10,241 We're not best of friends, but she knows me well 1267 01:03:10,266 --> 01:03:11,866 and she likes me enough 1268 01:03:11,891 --> 01:03:15,212 that she's given me some very interesting items. 1269 01:03:15,593 --> 01:03:18,369 This entire album here is relating to the Paines 1270 01:03:18,370 --> 01:03:20,364 and the many things they've signed for me. 1271 01:03:21,108 --> 01:03:25,158 This is Ruth's box of FBI investigative reports 1272 01:03:25,183 --> 01:03:28,033 that she obtained under the freedom of information act. 1273 01:03:28,213 --> 01:03:30,078 She's read books, she's got a collection. 1274 01:03:30,103 --> 01:03:31,322 Her notes are on here. 1275 01:03:31,323 --> 01:03:33,662 And certainly I'm sure she went through all of this 1276 01:03:33,687 --> 01:03:34,890 and read all of it. 1277 01:03:36,833 --> 01:03:39,666 She's an avid student of the assassination herself. 1278 01:03:40,633 --> 01:03:43,902 This is Ruth speaking to me back in August of 2017, 1279 01:03:43,903 --> 01:03:46,372 says, "Thanks for all the work investigating, 1280 01:03:46,373 --> 01:03:47,752 what was available on the internet." 1281 01:03:47,753 --> 01:03:48,802 She wanted me to find out 1282 01:03:48,803 --> 01:03:52,792 about this particular Warren Commission exhibit. 1283 01:03:52,793 --> 01:03:56,302 It says Commission Exhibit Number 458. 1284 01:03:56,303 --> 01:03:58,672 "There is certainly a lot of misinformation traveling 1285 01:03:58,673 --> 01:03:59,942 around the internet. 1286 01:03:59,943 --> 01:04:01,402 All of the things the police took 1287 01:04:01,403 --> 01:04:03,225 were taken without my permission." 1288 01:04:03,883 --> 01:04:05,222 When the issue of the contents 1289 01:04:05,223 --> 01:04:07,282 of the file cabinets came up, 1290 01:04:07,283 --> 01:04:09,743 Ruth's testimony was taken off the record 1291 01:04:10,603 --> 01:04:13,746 and the exhibit numbers were omitted without explanation. 1292 01:04:14,973 --> 01:04:17,515 - I don't think the Paines are hiding anything. 1293 01:04:17,522 --> 01:04:18,568 I really don't. 1294 01:04:18,613 --> 01:04:20,983 She hasn't shied away from talking about the assassination. 1295 01:04:21,008 --> 01:04:24,258 I think she feels a little bit of celebrity in herself. 1296 01:04:24,303 --> 01:04:26,972 She's an historical figure in terms of the assassination. 1297 01:04:26,973 --> 01:04:28,384 You know, she can't avoid that. 1298 01:04:28,943 --> 01:04:31,042 - The main accusation against the Paines 1299 01:04:31,043 --> 01:04:32,922 is that they were used in some way, 1300 01:04:32,923 --> 01:04:36,322 but they were doing intelligence work looking 1301 01:04:36,323 --> 01:04:39,336 after radicals and communists. 1302 01:04:39,381 --> 01:04:42,891 And that looking after the Oswald's was part of that? 1303 01:04:42,953 --> 01:04:44,082 - I don't know, there's so much 1304 01:04:44,083 --> 01:04:46,542 that just all of it can't be true. 1305 01:04:46,543 --> 01:04:49,772 I have a sense that the Paines, when I talk to them 1306 01:04:49,773 --> 01:04:51,252 were speaking from the heart 1307 01:04:51,253 --> 01:04:54,242 and talking truthfully, speaking truthfully, 1308 01:04:54,243 --> 01:04:56,268 but can I say a hundred percent, no. 1309 01:04:59,643 --> 01:05:01,752 - She expressed to me Friday evening 1310 01:05:01,753 --> 01:05:03,676 after we had come from the police station 1311 01:05:03,701 --> 01:05:05,093 that she was very worried 1312 01:05:05,118 --> 01:05:08,625 that this might prevent her staying in the United States. 1313 01:05:09,867 --> 01:05:12,652 She could not imagine her husband doing anything 1314 01:05:12,653 --> 01:05:14,400 of this sort, he... 1315 01:05:14,416 --> 01:05:15,985 never said anything, that she heard, 1316 01:05:16,029 --> 01:05:17,823 derogatory about the president. 1317 01:05:19,223 --> 01:05:21,702 Marina's mother-in-law, that is his mother, 1318 01:05:21,703 --> 01:05:26,432 Marguerite, invited this photo- grapher to come to the house 1319 01:05:26,433 --> 01:05:28,427 and that's why there are pictures. 1320 01:05:28,653 --> 01:05:31,182 And this picture was taken as they were getting ready 1321 01:05:31,183 --> 01:05:34,526 to go in to try to see Lee at the police station. 1322 01:05:36,339 --> 01:05:41,339 I did see Marina later but really the last contact I had 1323 01:05:41,364 --> 01:05:44,447 was the day after the assassination. 1324 01:05:46,531 --> 01:05:48,471 I guess the hardest part was not knowing 1325 01:05:48,491 --> 01:05:51,082 what was going on with Marina and how she was 1326 01:05:51,107 --> 01:05:52,482 and what she needed. 1327 01:05:54,193 --> 01:05:56,652 Marina was held in federal protective custody 1328 01:05:56,653 --> 01:05:59,432 for two months following the assassination. 1329 01:05:59,433 --> 01:06:01,402 There are reports that she was coerced 1330 01:06:01,403 --> 01:06:05,150 into cooperating with the FBI under threat of deportation. 1331 01:06:05,536 --> 01:06:07,006 - Marina, do you believe 1332 01:06:07,031 --> 01:06:10,652 that your husband killed President Kennedy? 1333 01:06:11,713 --> 01:06:16,009 - I don't want to believe, but I have too much facts 1334 01:06:16,010 --> 01:06:20,446 and facts tell me that Lee shot Kennedy. 1335 01:06:24,103 --> 01:06:27,662 - Who gets two telephone calls on Sunday, 1336 01:06:27,663 --> 01:06:30,306 two days after the assassination from Lee Oswald in prison? 1337 01:06:30,742 --> 01:06:31,819 Ruth Paine. 1338 01:06:32,213 --> 01:06:33,828 - He telephone twice. 1339 01:06:34,073 --> 01:06:37,592 The first call, he was asking me to contact a lawyer 1340 01:06:37,593 --> 01:06:40,532 in New York and gave me a phone number. 1341 01:06:40,533 --> 01:06:43,602 I was quite surprised that he was asking anything 1342 01:06:43,603 --> 01:06:44,953 of me at this point. 1343 01:06:45,169 --> 01:06:46,716 And I was not terribly keen 1344 01:06:46,723 --> 01:06:48,022 on doing anything for him, 1345 01:06:48,047 --> 01:06:51,096 but I thought, yeah, he needs representation. 1346 01:06:51,137 --> 01:06:52,746 And so I said I would call. 1347 01:06:53,033 --> 01:06:54,728 I did, but I didn't get any answer. 1348 01:06:54,753 --> 01:06:56,253 I mean, it just rang. 1349 01:06:56,472 --> 01:06:58,103 - These people have given me a hearing 1350 01:06:58,140 --> 01:07:00,382 without legal representation or anything. 1351 01:07:00,407 --> 01:07:02,607 - Did you shoot the president? - I didn't shoot anybody. 1352 01:07:02,774 --> 01:07:04,947 And then he called again later in the evening 1353 01:07:05,083 --> 01:07:06,488 to ask to speak to Marina. 1354 01:07:07,033 --> 01:07:08,629 'Cause he didn't know where she was. 1355 01:07:09,003 --> 01:07:10,506 I said, well, she's not here. 1356 01:07:11,463 --> 01:07:15,092 - Those calls would've been a footnote to the entire story. 1357 01:07:15,093 --> 01:07:16,362 They became important 1358 01:07:16,363 --> 01:07:19,002 only because they were the last telephone calls 1359 01:07:19,003 --> 01:07:21,062 that Lee Oswald made to anybody in the world 1360 01:07:21,063 --> 01:07:22,142 and they were to Ruth Paine 1361 01:07:22,143 --> 01:07:25,796 and the only person who can say what Oswald said is Ruth. 1362 01:07:31,735 --> 01:07:33,946 He's been shot! He's been shot! 1363 01:07:34,132 --> 01:07:36,682 Oswald was in custody for 48 hours. 1364 01:07:36,873 --> 01:07:39,452 But authorities denied that any official records 1365 01:07:39,453 --> 01:07:42,492 or recordings were kept during his interrogations. 1366 01:07:44,983 --> 01:07:49,333 Millions watched on live TV as he was killed by Jack Ruby, 1367 01:07:49,363 --> 01:07:50,702 a local strip club owner 1368 01:07:50,703 --> 01:07:54,341 with connections to both the mob and the police force. 1369 01:07:55,393 --> 01:07:57,062 - My first thought was, 1370 01:07:57,086 --> 01:07:58,825 oh, and Marina won't have to go 1371 01:07:58,826 --> 01:08:02,166 to trial, it'll be simpler. 1372 01:08:03,289 --> 01:08:07,541 So it wasn't really a good thought. 1373 01:08:08,213 --> 01:08:10,642 - Mrs. Paine, you have been reluctant to speak 1374 01:08:10,643 --> 01:08:13,352 to television cameras before this evening. 1375 01:08:13,353 --> 01:08:15,200 Is there any particular reason for that? 1376 01:08:15,847 --> 01:08:18,937 - Yes. I think it's a terrible thing 1377 01:08:19,053 --> 01:08:23,058 to judge a man before he is brought to trial. 1378 01:08:23,313 --> 01:08:27,013 And in this case, it's a very difficult thing not to do. 1379 01:08:27,067 --> 01:08:29,897 The evidence was so incriminating. 1380 01:08:29,922 --> 01:08:32,182 Just as we, all of us, the nation, saw it 1381 01:08:32,213 --> 01:08:33,342 on the television, 1382 01:08:33,343 --> 01:08:34,912 but now of course he's dead. 1383 01:08:34,913 --> 01:08:38,952 He has in effect been judged quickly and hanged 1384 01:08:38,953 --> 01:08:42,402 and there's no question of prejudicing people 1385 01:08:42,403 --> 01:08:43,756 by what we say now. 1386 01:08:45,961 --> 01:08:47,991 - The world will never know the true facts 1387 01:08:49,203 --> 01:08:51,016 of what occurred, my motives. 1388 01:08:51,879 --> 01:08:53,498 The people that had so much to gain 1389 01:08:53,523 --> 01:08:55,183 and had such a material motive 1390 01:08:56,819 --> 01:08:58,440 to put me in the position I'm in 1391 01:09:00,693 --> 01:09:02,063 will never let true facts 1392 01:09:03,992 --> 01:09:06,382 come above board to the world. 1393 01:09:06,825 --> 01:09:08,121 Are these people 1394 01:09:08,146 --> 01:09:09,341 in very high positions, Jack? 1395 01:09:09,526 --> 01:09:10,759 - Yes. 1396 01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:22,387 - Since 1959, I felt and knew that Lee was not a defector, 1397 01:09:22,570 --> 01:09:24,730 that he was a government agent. 1398 01:09:24,755 --> 01:09:29,665 And I still believe and still say that Lee Harvey Oswald 1399 01:09:29,696 --> 01:09:30,897 was set up. 1400 01:09:31,018 --> 01:09:32,978 We are all Marines family. 1401 01:09:33,003 --> 01:09:35,782 My oldest boy is in the air force 1402 01:09:35,783 --> 01:09:39,693 and Robert, Lee's brother, was a marine and Lee was a marine 1403 01:09:39,718 --> 01:09:42,058 and I know that this boy loved the marines 1404 01:09:42,073 --> 01:09:43,922 and could not have been a defector. 1405 01:09:44,026 --> 01:09:45,697 This is a frame up. 1406 01:09:47,188 --> 01:09:51,468 - Marguerite Oswald was convinced that he was an agent, 1407 01:09:51,493 --> 01:09:54,520 US agent, said that when he "defected," 1408 01:09:55,947 --> 01:09:57,600 she went to the State Department, 1409 01:09:57,866 --> 01:10:01,470 got red carpet treatment, they assured her not to worry. 1410 01:10:11,546 --> 01:10:13,916 - The Zapruder film is a visual record 1411 01:10:13,943 --> 01:10:15,146 of the assassination. 1412 01:10:15,843 --> 01:10:18,642 To think that if the film did not exist, 1413 01:10:18,643 --> 01:10:21,712 that home movie of the assassination did not exist, 1414 01:10:21,713 --> 01:10:25,392 we would never be able to prove with any certainty 1415 01:10:25,393 --> 01:10:27,151 what happened at Dealey Plaza. 1416 01:10:41,952 --> 01:10:44,049 The president was hit in the head. 1417 01:10:44,163 --> 01:10:45,657 That's an unconfirmed report 1418 01:10:45,681 --> 01:10:47,301 that the president was hit in the head. 1419 01:10:47,706 --> 01:10:49,692 President's wife Jackie Kennedy was not hurt. 1420 01:10:49,693 --> 01:10:51,019 She walked into the hospital 1421 01:10:51,263 --> 01:10:52,863 at her husband's stretcher's side. 1422 01:10:53,858 --> 01:10:58,228 - I'm a native of Dallas. November 22nd, 1963, 1423 01:10:58,253 --> 01:11:01,818 I was downtown cheering for my president. 1424 01:11:02,243 --> 01:11:05,172 My roommate was teaching at an elementary school 1425 01:11:05,173 --> 01:11:08,112 and when it came on over the PA system 1426 01:11:08,113 --> 01:11:10,059 that the president had been shot, 1427 01:11:10,105 --> 01:11:11,944 the fifth-graders in her class cheered. 1428 01:11:12,353 --> 01:11:15,383 These kids were hearing at home that Kennedy was a communist 1429 01:11:15,689 --> 01:11:18,532 and that's what was said everywhere in Dallas. 1430 01:11:36,339 --> 01:11:37,372 Ladies and gentlemen, 1431 01:11:37,378 --> 01:11:39,426 welcome to the famous Grassy Knoll area 1432 01:11:39,433 --> 01:11:40,747 here in Dealey Plaza. 1433 01:11:40,886 --> 01:11:42,626 This is the infamous location 1434 01:11:42,643 --> 01:11:44,654 where president Kennedy was assassinated. 1435 01:11:44,806 --> 01:11:47,076 That happened 51 years ago today. 1436 01:11:47,113 --> 01:11:49,722 - Officer Harget ran up here, when we got up here, 1437 01:11:49,723 --> 01:11:51,212 I was standing about right here. 1438 01:11:51,213 --> 01:11:55,182 He had blood on his helmet, his face, his shirt. 1439 01:11:55,183 --> 01:11:56,272 He had blood and brain. 1440 01:11:56,273 --> 01:11:59,296 He was just covered with blood and brain. 1441 01:12:01,785 --> 01:12:04,776 - This, I got it from Arlington National Cemetery actually, 1442 01:12:04,801 --> 01:12:07,091 when I went to see President Kennedy's grave site. 1443 01:12:07,203 --> 01:12:10,903 I'm more inclined to believe that Oswald didn't act alone. 1444 01:12:10,928 --> 01:12:11,961 Yeah. 1445 01:12:14,649 --> 01:12:18,645 - This man did it, Lee Harvey Oswald in my opinion. 1446 01:12:19,007 --> 01:12:20,854 I mean, all the evidence points to him. 1447 01:12:21,130 --> 01:12:24,346 It was him, he tried shooting a general down here, 1448 01:12:24,383 --> 01:12:26,014 maybe months before this, 1449 01:12:26,463 --> 01:12:28,882 they found out it was the same rifle he had. 1450 01:12:32,229 --> 01:12:36,539 - Looking the situation over back there 40 steps behind me, 1451 01:12:36,566 --> 01:12:39,086 a bullet crashed through the window 1452 01:12:39,123 --> 01:12:42,012 and just missed me. 1453 01:12:42,013 --> 01:12:44,262 And my arm was laying on the desk 1454 01:12:44,263 --> 01:12:46,352 and it was bleeding in three places 1455 01:12:46,353 --> 01:12:48,792 which turned out to be fragments 1456 01:12:48,793 --> 01:12:50,038 from the shell casing. 1457 01:12:50,413 --> 01:12:54,623 - He had decided to take a shot and try to kill Walker, 1458 01:12:54,668 --> 01:12:56,998 who was a John Burr Society leader. 1459 01:12:57,033 --> 01:12:58,282 Very right wing. 1460 01:12:58,283 --> 01:13:00,472 - Walker made sense for him 1461 01:13:00,473 --> 01:13:02,882 that photograph of him with the guns. 1462 01:13:02,883 --> 01:13:05,754 That was to say about Walker, 1463 01:13:05,762 --> 01:13:07,348 I did it, and I'm glad. 1464 01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:12,930 - Seven or eight days after the assassination. 1465 01:13:12,955 --> 01:13:15,275 Ruth Paine says she has to return 1466 01:13:15,303 --> 01:13:16,979 a couple of books to Marina. 1467 01:13:17,023 --> 01:13:19,523 Out of nowhere, in one of those books, 1468 01:13:19,543 --> 01:13:21,822 she accidentally finds this note, 1469 01:13:21,823 --> 01:13:24,458 which the FBI turns into a piece of evidence 1470 01:13:24,993 --> 01:13:26,602 about the Walker shooting. 1471 01:13:26,603 --> 01:13:28,832 By the time that gets to the Warren Commission, 1472 01:13:28,833 --> 01:13:30,632 this is supposed to be a precedent 1473 01:13:30,633 --> 01:13:32,556 for Oswald shooting Kennedy. 1474 01:13:33,443 --> 01:13:35,912 - If I hadn't taken that book to Marina, 1475 01:13:35,913 --> 01:13:37,472 we might not even know 1476 01:13:37,473 --> 01:13:39,491 that he had made the attempt on Walker. 1477 01:13:40,171 --> 01:13:41,921 I was sending things to Marina 1478 01:13:41,946 --> 01:13:43,569 and of course they looked through a book to see 1479 01:13:43,593 --> 01:13:44,725 what might fall out and out fell 1480 01:13:44,726 --> 01:13:46,735 this note that I didn't know was there. 1481 01:13:46,992 --> 01:13:49,731 A couple of people from secret service came to me 1482 01:13:49,756 --> 01:13:54,606 and said, "Mrs. Paine, do you recognise this note?" 1483 01:13:54,631 --> 01:13:56,784 No, I didn't recognise it. 1484 01:13:56,809 --> 01:13:58,118 "Do I know the handwriting?" 1485 01:13:58,143 --> 01:13:59,896 No. Didn't know the handwriting. 1486 01:14:00,993 --> 01:14:05,652 She had hidden the note that he wrote her that April, 1487 01:14:05,653 --> 01:14:08,156 when he went out to try to shoot Edwin Walker. 1488 01:14:09,033 --> 01:14:13,744 - The Secret Service returned that note to Ruth saying, 1489 01:14:13,780 --> 01:14:15,069 "This is yours, isn't it?" 1490 01:14:16,403 --> 01:14:19,235 That's how suspicious Secret Service was of Ruth Paine. 1491 01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:20,579 They thought she wrote the note. 1492 01:14:20,795 --> 01:14:23,075 - Of all the defeats in the cold war, 1493 01:14:23,100 --> 01:14:25,383 the capture of Cuba by the communists 1494 01:14:25,421 --> 01:14:27,249 is the most unacceptable. 1495 01:14:29,011 --> 01:14:31,641 - The best witness on the Walker case 1496 01:14:31,666 --> 01:14:33,233 said he saw two people there. 1497 01:14:33,767 --> 01:14:36,227 And it didn't seem like either one of 'em was Oswald. 1498 01:14:36,269 --> 01:14:37,997 A lot of people think, frankly, that Walker set up 1499 01:14:38,021 --> 01:14:39,441 this shooting himself. 1500 01:14:40,549 --> 01:14:43,729 - The shooter was 30 yards away from a stationary target 1501 01:14:43,763 --> 01:14:44,796 and he missed, 1502 01:14:45,693 --> 01:14:47,492 but yet we're supposed to believe 1503 01:14:47,493 --> 01:14:52,493 that Oswald hit a moving target from as far away as 270 feet. 1504 01:14:53,741 --> 01:14:55,422 There were seven fingerprints taken 1505 01:14:55,447 --> 01:14:56,934 off the so-called Walker note. 1506 01:14:57,223 --> 01:14:59,127 None of 'em matched Lee. 1507 01:14:59,501 --> 01:15:01,553 None of 'em matched Marina. 1508 01:15:03,667 --> 01:15:05,528 Other than Marina, Ruth Paine 1509 01:15:05,553 --> 01:15:07,842 has been history's most important witness 1510 01:15:07,843 --> 01:15:09,414 against Lee Harvey Oswald. 1511 01:15:09,853 --> 01:15:11,652 Ruth and her garage provided much 1512 01:15:11,653 --> 01:15:14,742 of the incriminating evidence and the Walker note 1513 01:15:14,743 --> 01:15:17,339 wasn't the only piece that curiously popped up 1514 01:15:17,673 --> 01:15:20,315 after the initial police search of Ruth's home. 1515 01:15:20,863 --> 01:15:23,292 The infamous backyard photos were found 1516 01:15:23,293 --> 01:15:24,771 in the second police search. 1517 01:15:24,903 --> 01:15:28,272 The day after the assassination and Ruth later handed 1518 01:15:28,273 --> 01:15:31,259 over two cameras that had supposedly been overlooked. 1519 01:15:31,613 --> 01:15:33,840 One was matched to the backyard photos. 1520 01:15:34,543 --> 01:15:36,792 The other was a miniature spy camera, 1521 01:15:36,793 --> 01:15:39,556 which has intrigued researchers for decades. 1522 01:15:40,843 --> 01:15:43,082 Two weeks after the assassination, 1523 01:15:43,083 --> 01:15:46,522 as doubts about Oswald's trip to Mexico were surfacing, 1524 01:15:46,523 --> 01:15:50,072 Ruth miraculously found several incriminating items 1525 01:15:50,073 --> 01:15:51,762 sitting in a drawer in the room 1526 01:15:51,763 --> 01:15:53,346 where the Oswalds had stayed. 1527 01:15:55,974 --> 01:15:57,454 - You studied Russian? 1528 01:15:57,479 --> 01:15:58,512 - Yes. 1529 01:15:59,269 --> 01:16:01,922 When did you first begin to study Russian? 1530 01:16:04,700 --> 01:16:07,838 - I think it was around '57, 1531 01:16:07,863 --> 01:16:11,733 I had been working with a young Quaker group 1532 01:16:11,843 --> 01:16:13,902 that was interested in cultural exchange. 1533 01:16:13,903 --> 01:16:16,025 - Yeah, so it just happened or just a coincidence, 1534 01:16:16,026 --> 01:16:17,373 that you chose Russian 1535 01:16:17,412 --> 01:16:20,272 as a language of your interest? That's just a coincidence? 1536 01:16:20,297 --> 01:16:21,517 - No, it wasn't a coincidence at all. 1537 01:16:21,541 --> 01:16:22,873 I'm telling you that's because I felt 1538 01:16:22,897 --> 01:16:25,719 it was really important to communicate among, 1539 01:16:25,903 --> 01:16:27,513 between our countries in particular. 1540 01:16:27,543 --> 01:16:31,301 This was the era of the Cold War, so- 1541 01:16:31,333 --> 01:16:32,923 - Well, okay. 1542 01:16:32,928 --> 01:16:38,023 And is it a coincidence that it was you, Mrs. Paine? 1543 01:16:38,233 --> 01:16:39,246 - Yeah. 1544 01:16:39,263 --> 01:16:43,325 Yes, who directed Lee to the job 1545 01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:47,175 that put him in the Texas School Book Depository? 1546 01:16:47,817 --> 01:16:50,027 - Yes. I think that was clearly a coincidence. 1547 01:16:50,073 --> 01:16:51,942 - And it's just a coincidence that the gun 1548 01:16:51,943 --> 01:16:53,492 that supposedly killed the president 1549 01:16:53,493 --> 01:16:55,266 was located in your house? 1550 01:16:57,476 --> 01:16:58,716 - What do you mean coincidence? 1551 01:16:58,743 --> 01:16:59,872 - I mean, it just happened. 1552 01:16:59,873 --> 01:17:02,443 It's just, all of these things just sort of happened 1553 01:17:02,452 --> 01:17:04,200 all around you. 1554 01:17:04,542 --> 01:17:05,745 That's a coincidence? 1555 01:17:06,743 --> 01:17:09,172 Now, Mrs. Paine, I want to tell you something, 1556 01:17:09,903 --> 01:17:10,935 I've talked to you 1557 01:17:10,936 --> 01:17:13,352 about mere coincidences, but you can see- 1558 01:17:13,353 --> 01:17:14,762 - No... guilt by association- 1559 01:17:14,763 --> 01:17:16,152 - Yes. You can see how, 1560 01:17:16,153 --> 01:17:18,392 when I place questions to you like this, 1561 01:17:18,393 --> 01:17:20,584 that people can come 1562 01:17:20,608 --> 01:17:22,662 to conclusions that you feel are wrong 1563 01:17:22,663 --> 01:17:24,120 about you. - That's true, they could. 1564 01:17:26,323 --> 01:17:28,712 In the late '50s, Ruth Paine was in charge 1565 01:17:28,713 --> 01:17:31,051 of a Quaker cultural exchange program. 1566 01:17:31,483 --> 01:17:33,652 The East West Contacts Committee 1567 01:17:33,653 --> 01:17:35,572 set up pen pal correspondence 1568 01:17:35,573 --> 01:17:37,783 between young Soviets and Americans. 1569 01:17:38,583 --> 01:17:41,382 Ruth's group had a liaison in the state department 1570 01:17:41,383 --> 01:17:43,807 who was in close communication with the CIA. 1571 01:17:44,393 --> 01:17:47,152 Some researchers believed that Ruth may have been recruited 1572 01:17:47,153 --> 01:17:50,036 as an intelligence asset during this time. 1573 01:17:51,213 --> 01:17:54,662 - The CIA was careful not to be directly involved 1574 01:17:54,663 --> 01:17:57,382 in that, but I think was in fact giving a certain amount 1575 01:17:57,383 --> 01:17:59,628 of support to that sort of thing. 1576 01:18:00,153 --> 01:18:03,536 - I think the story is the Paines were used. 1577 01:18:04,623 --> 01:18:08,246 - I think they were given very little information 1578 01:18:08,769 --> 01:18:11,833 and I think they were very real sense victimized. 1579 01:18:17,775 --> 01:18:20,005 How do you feel about this stuff proliferating 1580 01:18:20,035 --> 01:18:21,068 on the internet? 1581 01:18:21,863 --> 01:18:24,501 - Well, I don't look, that's how I feel about it. 1582 01:18:25,172 --> 01:18:28,015 Just live my life separate from that as best I can. 1583 01:18:29,133 --> 01:18:31,282 I was surprised after there was a little article 1584 01:18:31,283 --> 01:18:33,610 in the local paper about me 1585 01:18:35,008 --> 01:18:37,207 and some of the comments were horrible. 1586 01:18:37,973 --> 01:18:39,402 It's an open internet. 1587 01:18:40,133 --> 01:18:43,446 So it has a lot of things that are not true. 1588 01:18:52,484 --> 01:18:53,617 Either take it now. 1589 01:18:53,652 --> 01:18:54,717 - Yes. Yes. 1590 01:18:54,736 --> 01:18:56,259 - All right. - You bid close first? 1591 01:18:56,284 --> 01:18:58,193 - I did bid close first. 1592 01:18:58,198 --> 01:18:59,382 - Okay, so there you are. 1593 01:18:59,733 --> 01:19:00,783 I think so. 1594 01:19:04,162 --> 01:19:06,552 We don't get photographed every day. 1595 01:19:06,603 --> 01:19:07,642 - You don't? 1596 01:19:07,643 --> 01:19:08,676 No. 1597 01:19:12,003 --> 01:19:15,420 - I think Ruth does, much more than I do. 1598 01:19:17,509 --> 01:19:18,935 Look at that. 1599 01:19:20,533 --> 01:19:22,692 In the aftermath of the assassination, 1600 01:19:22,693 --> 01:19:24,691 Ruth and Michael patched up their marriage. 1601 01:19:25,095 --> 01:19:28,711 Michael moved back in and they stayed together until 1970, 1602 01:19:29,053 --> 01:19:31,096 when they finally did divorce for good. 1603 01:19:32,093 --> 01:19:33,562 Over the following decades, 1604 01:19:33,563 --> 01:19:35,724 Ruth worked in various schools as a principal 1605 01:19:35,735 --> 01:19:37,145 and psychologist. 1606 01:19:37,663 --> 01:19:40,622 She raised two children, mostly on her own 1607 01:19:40,623 --> 01:19:42,693 and went to graduate school for her Masters 1608 01:19:42,718 --> 01:19:43,930 in Child Psychology. 1609 01:19:43,989 --> 01:19:46,871 - So it's over? So you got a 40 above the mark. 1610 01:19:46,896 --> 01:19:48,291 - Later on in her life, 1611 01:19:48,316 --> 01:19:50,406 Ruth Paine goes down to Nicaragua 1612 01:19:50,513 --> 01:19:52,777 and there were reports of her going 1613 01:19:53,133 --> 01:19:55,442 to Sandinistas sympathizer meetings 1614 01:19:55,443 --> 01:19:57,645 and taking notations of what went down. 1615 01:19:58,303 --> 01:20:01,442 For many, many people, the veneer's come off, 1616 01:20:01,443 --> 01:20:02,692 Ruth and Michael Paine. 1617 01:20:02,693 --> 01:20:04,333 I mean, they're just not credible anymore. 1618 01:20:04,603 --> 01:20:07,397 - I know a woman who in the early 1990s worked 1619 01:20:07,422 --> 01:20:10,703 with Ruth Paine as a Christian peace activist in Nicaragua. 1620 01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:15,500 This was during the time of the civil war in Nicaragua 1621 01:20:15,734 --> 01:20:18,336 during the Reagan and Bush I years. 1622 01:20:18,612 --> 01:20:20,402 - It was a contentious time down there. 1623 01:20:20,427 --> 01:20:22,147 It was very clear that the CIA 1624 01:20:22,173 --> 01:20:26,076 was supporting the so-called Contra freedom fighters 1625 01:20:26,119 --> 01:20:27,329 all the way. 1626 01:20:27,423 --> 01:20:29,653 The Contras were the ones opposing 1627 01:20:29,659 --> 01:20:31,951 the Sandinista revolution. 1628 01:20:32,250 --> 01:20:34,352 The Christian group that this woman 1629 01:20:34,377 --> 01:20:37,063 and Ruth were involved with was called ProNica. 1630 01:20:37,542 --> 01:20:40,800 And they were helping the poor people of Nicaragua 1631 01:20:40,823 --> 01:20:44,035 who naturally sided with the Sandinistas. 1632 01:20:44,363 --> 01:20:45,609 And because of this, 1633 01:20:45,634 --> 01:20:49,724 these Christian peace groups were often heavily monitored 1634 01:20:49,773 --> 01:20:52,809 by our US intelligence agencies. 1635 01:20:55,190 --> 01:20:58,880 - My work in Nicaragua was with a Quaker organization. 1636 01:20:58,902 --> 01:21:02,285 We had a project to help the poorest of the poor 1637 01:21:02,310 --> 01:21:03,458 in Nicaragua. 1638 01:21:03,698 --> 01:21:05,908 And at one of these meetings, a woman showed up 1639 01:21:05,953 --> 01:21:08,456 and proceeded to accuse me of a lot of things. 1640 01:21:09,803 --> 01:21:13,402 - She introduced herself as Ruth Paine, 1641 01:21:13,403 --> 01:21:14,836 representing the Quakers. 1642 01:21:15,627 --> 01:21:18,737 And I said, well, you're not the Quaker Ruth Paine 1643 01:21:18,783 --> 01:21:20,989 who knew Marina Oswald are you? 1644 01:21:21,461 --> 01:21:25,178 - This woman told me that after Sue Wheaton 1645 01:21:25,203 --> 01:21:29,232 had told people about Ruth's association 1646 01:21:29,233 --> 01:21:30,586 with the assassination, 1647 01:21:30,672 --> 01:21:32,653 which they did not know about, 1648 01:21:32,969 --> 01:21:35,785 then they became even more suspicious of her. 1649 01:21:36,102 --> 01:21:39,522 She and others in their organization believed 1650 01:21:39,568 --> 01:21:43,394 that Ruth was a CIA agent 1651 01:21:43,733 --> 01:21:45,824 or asset who was down there 1652 01:21:45,843 --> 01:21:49,256 for the purpose of gathering information about the group. 1653 01:21:50,363 --> 01:21:53,186 - So Ruth had a photographer that came and was with her. 1654 01:21:53,223 --> 01:21:55,294 He was there snapping everybody. 1655 01:21:55,319 --> 01:21:56,353 And that's when they said, 1656 01:21:56,377 --> 01:21:59,193 "Well, we're doing this article for the Nicaragua Network." 1657 01:21:59,254 --> 01:22:02,617 But Nicaragua Network had never heard of such a story. 1658 01:22:03,553 --> 01:22:05,432 They were taking everybody's picture at a meeting 1659 01:22:05,433 --> 01:22:07,883 and we tried to take their picture and they left. 1660 01:22:09,276 --> 01:22:13,776 I think in her being one of the primary defenders, 1661 01:22:13,801 --> 01:22:17,071 if not the primary defender of the official story, 1662 01:22:17,096 --> 01:22:19,416 she's been a disinformation agent 1663 01:22:19,436 --> 01:22:21,045 about the Kennedy assassination. 1664 01:22:21,753 --> 01:22:24,152 So even if she didn't have prior knowledge, 1665 01:22:24,153 --> 01:22:27,062 she continued for whatever her motives were, 1666 01:22:27,063 --> 01:22:30,231 whether threat or pure belief, to go along with it. 1667 01:22:30,869 --> 01:22:33,354 It's so easy to justify what you do. 1668 01:22:33,393 --> 01:22:36,466 You know, it is for any of us. 1669 01:22:39,127 --> 01:22:40,127 Ha ha! 1670 01:22:40,138 --> 01:22:41,418 You want a turn? 1671 01:22:44,674 --> 01:22:46,142 I knew that eventually I had to start 1672 01:22:46,167 --> 01:22:49,447 asking Ruth some even more uncomfortable questions, 1673 01:22:49,546 --> 01:22:52,366 even if it could jeopardize our relationship. 1674 01:22:53,533 --> 01:22:55,302 To let her story go unchallenged 1675 01:22:55,303 --> 01:22:57,096 would be a disservice to history. 1676 01:22:58,396 --> 01:22:59,429 Ready? - Yes. 1677 01:22:59,814 --> 01:23:01,014 I've been studying this case 1678 01:23:01,039 --> 01:23:02,269 for the last few years 1679 01:23:02,313 --> 01:23:03,957 and trying to be objective 1680 01:23:03,985 --> 01:23:05,951 and taking all different viewpoints. 1681 01:23:05,989 --> 01:23:07,088 - Oh really? Okay. 1682 01:23:07,113 --> 01:23:08,378 Trying not to be biased- 1683 01:23:08,406 --> 01:23:10,106 - Shucks. 1684 01:23:11,423 --> 01:23:13,482 It seems maybe a little extreme 1685 01:23:13,483 --> 01:23:15,082 to completely dismiss the questions 1686 01:23:15,083 --> 01:23:17,102 of conspiracy with all that's come out 1687 01:23:17,103 --> 01:23:18,162 over the years. 1688 01:23:18,163 --> 01:23:19,522 - To you it's extreme? 1689 01:23:19,523 --> 01:23:21,528 - Yeah. - To dismiss the idea of 1690 01:23:21,552 --> 01:23:24,461 conspiracy to me, it's not extreme 1691 01:23:24,485 --> 01:23:28,191 because the things I saw were so telling. 1692 01:23:28,559 --> 01:23:30,972 Everything I saw pointed to him 1693 01:23:30,973 --> 01:23:31,999 and him alone. 1694 01:23:33,428 --> 01:23:34,904 - What's this? - This is some sort of 1695 01:23:34,928 --> 01:23:38,066 CIA declassified document about your sister. 1696 01:23:40,433 --> 01:23:41,466 - Yeah, 1697 01:23:42,227 --> 01:23:43,567 okay it's possible. 1698 01:23:44,983 --> 01:23:46,172 Researchers have determined 1699 01:23:46,173 --> 01:23:49,612 that Ruth's sister, Sylvia Hoke, worked as a psychologist 1700 01:23:49,613 --> 01:23:50,862 for the CIA 1701 01:23:50,863 --> 01:23:52,886 likely beginning in 1954. 1702 01:23:53,660 --> 01:23:56,610 The document indicates that she was still working there 1703 01:23:56,635 --> 01:23:58,058 as of 1961. 1704 01:23:59,333 --> 01:24:01,292 - She had studied psychology I guess, 1705 01:24:01,293 --> 01:24:06,132 and she was helping to develop tests 1706 01:24:06,133 --> 01:24:09,063 of intelligence that didn't involve language 1707 01:24:09,933 --> 01:24:12,382 because they wanted to get bright people working 1708 01:24:12,383 --> 01:24:13,696 on the oil fields. 1709 01:24:15,420 --> 01:24:17,659 So that's all I know about what she did. 1710 01:24:22,363 --> 01:24:24,702 Ruth's father, William Avery Hyde 1711 01:24:24,703 --> 01:24:26,482 did extensive work for the Agency 1712 01:24:26,483 --> 01:24:29,306 for International Development in Latin America. 1713 01:24:30,193 --> 01:24:33,391 AID was a well-known cover for CIA personnel 1714 01:24:33,963 --> 01:24:37,496 and Hyde filed reports that were directly routed to the CIA. 1715 01:24:38,443 --> 01:24:41,572 This document reveals that he was under consideration 1716 01:24:41,573 --> 01:24:44,876 by the CIA for covert use in Vietnam. 1717 01:24:47,603 --> 01:24:51,022 - My family had a hostility to communism 1718 01:24:51,023 --> 01:24:53,252 because my parents had been active 1719 01:24:53,253 --> 01:24:54,892 in the cooperative movement. 1720 01:24:54,893 --> 01:24:56,289 This was New York city 1721 01:24:56,313 --> 01:25:01,763 where the local communist party people wanted to take over. 1722 01:25:02,253 --> 01:25:04,632 One of the things I was raised up knowing 1723 01:25:04,633 --> 01:25:07,747 is that communists would 1724 01:25:07,748 --> 01:25:10,222 think that the end justifies the means 1725 01:25:10,223 --> 01:25:13,343 and my folks didn't feel that way at all, nor do I. 1726 01:25:14,533 --> 01:25:15,752 During the cold war, 1727 01:25:15,753 --> 01:25:18,462 the government recruited many informants and agents 1728 01:25:18,463 --> 01:25:20,702 among liberals who saw communism 1729 01:25:20,703 --> 01:25:23,296 as the great threat to freedom and democracy. 1730 01:25:24,376 --> 01:25:26,769 Ruth's family seems to fit this description. 1731 01:25:30,423 --> 01:25:33,972 It seems that sometimes it's families 1732 01:25:33,973 --> 01:25:36,193 that are employed within the intelligence community. 1733 01:25:36,429 --> 01:25:37,999 - Whole families? 1734 01:25:38,014 --> 01:25:40,596 Yeah, multiple members of the family. 1735 01:25:41,053 --> 01:25:44,162 You mean therefore, I was... also. 1736 01:25:44,163 --> 01:25:45,776 That's one of the accusations. 1737 01:25:45,801 --> 01:25:46,834 - I see. 1738 01:25:48,073 --> 01:25:50,062 In the summer of 1963, 1739 01:25:50,063 --> 01:25:52,178 Ruth Paine set out on a long road trip 1740 01:25:52,202 --> 01:25:53,883 to visit friends and relatives. 1741 01:25:54,239 --> 01:25:55,979 She stayed on Naushon Island 1742 01:25:56,032 --> 01:25:58,542 and later spent several days at her sister's house 1743 01:25:58,571 --> 01:26:00,244 in the Washington, DC area. 1744 01:26:00,543 --> 01:26:02,605 Her last stop in late September 1745 01:26:02,629 --> 01:26:05,336 was to pick up Marina Oswald in New Orleans 1746 01:26:05,361 --> 01:26:08,911 and bring her and the Oswalds' belongings back to Dallas. 1747 01:26:08,953 --> 01:26:12,342 It's right around this time that Lee Oswald allegedly visits 1748 01:26:12,343 --> 01:26:14,652 the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. 1749 01:26:14,653 --> 01:26:16,790 Although we know that even J. Edgar Hoover 1750 01:26:16,803 --> 01:26:18,193 had doubts about that. 1751 01:26:18,823 --> 01:26:21,982 By early October, Oswald is back in Dallas 1752 01:26:21,983 --> 01:26:23,722 where Ruth helps him get the job 1753 01:26:23,723 --> 01:26:24,971 at the book depository. 1754 01:26:25,833 --> 01:26:28,366 Five weeks later, the president is dead. 1755 01:26:32,879 --> 01:26:35,022 Do you see why people take these connections 1756 01:26:35,071 --> 01:26:36,187 as being suspicious? 1757 01:26:36,212 --> 01:26:38,035 - Sure. Yeah. 1758 01:26:43,204 --> 01:26:47,417 Long term, I'm hoping that real history will prevail. 1759 01:26:48,503 --> 01:26:51,342 Max Holland has been a researcher, 1760 01:26:51,343 --> 01:26:54,093 especially looking at what the Warren Commission did 1761 01:26:54,326 --> 01:26:55,906 and what they didn't do, what they knew 1762 01:26:55,931 --> 01:26:57,141 and what they didn't know. 1763 01:26:57,166 --> 01:26:58,669 That's good research. 1764 01:26:59,579 --> 01:27:01,859 - I have met Ruth. 1765 01:27:01,884 --> 01:27:05,414 I instantly felt an affinity for her 1766 01:27:05,443 --> 01:27:08,802 because I went to the same college, Antioch College. 1767 01:27:08,803 --> 01:27:12,022 And I also worked for the Quakers for a couple years 1768 01:27:12,023 --> 01:27:13,104 in Washington. 1769 01:27:13,401 --> 01:27:16,461 I knew her mentality. 1770 01:27:16,533 --> 01:27:20,433 She's not duplicitous or there's not a person hiding 1771 01:27:20,445 --> 01:27:22,433 behind the person she presents. 1772 01:27:22,893 --> 01:27:24,520 She's probably one of the most 1773 01:27:24,544 --> 01:27:26,689 above board people I've ever met. 1774 01:27:27,367 --> 01:27:29,553 Quakers often tend to be like that. 1775 01:27:30,126 --> 01:27:32,326 - They were very, very good people 1776 01:27:32,363 --> 01:27:36,686 and therefore so ironic that they were caught up in it, 1777 01:27:36,851 --> 01:27:39,011 but in a way, thank goodness it was them 1778 01:27:39,036 --> 01:27:40,654 and not somebody else. 1779 01:27:40,845 --> 01:27:43,925 Ruth has behaved awfully, awfully well. 1780 01:27:43,968 --> 01:27:47,780 She handled it just by being honest, 1781 01:27:47,805 --> 01:27:49,545 every step of the way, 1782 01:27:49,570 --> 01:27:53,150 I think that they were very, very innocent 1783 01:27:53,175 --> 01:27:56,198 and maybe their innocence was a kind of shield. 1784 01:27:58,238 --> 01:28:01,348 - A favourite tactic of conspiracy theorists 1785 01:28:01,373 --> 01:28:06,187 is to make accusations that anybody who they disagree with 1786 01:28:06,211 --> 01:28:08,868 has a connection with intelligence community, 1787 01:28:08,893 --> 01:28:10,452 it's been made against me, 1788 01:28:10,453 --> 01:28:12,902 it's been made against Ruth and Michael. 1789 01:28:12,903 --> 01:28:14,823 The only explanation could be 1790 01:28:14,848 --> 01:28:18,542 that we're part of the cover up, paid by the CIA, or... 1791 01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:24,768 For better or worse I did write one article 1792 01:28:24,793 --> 01:28:27,922 for a CIA-published journal. 1793 01:28:27,923 --> 01:28:29,212 So people have turned that 1794 01:28:29,213 --> 01:28:32,648 into the fact that I work for the CIA. 1795 01:28:33,143 --> 01:28:35,272 I was aware they gave monetary awards 1796 01:28:35,273 --> 01:28:37,082 for the best articles of the year. 1797 01:28:37,083 --> 01:28:40,768 That's how I earn my living is getting paid for my writing. 1798 01:28:41,433 --> 01:28:43,512 So I accepted the award of course, 1799 01:28:43,513 --> 01:28:45,778 because it was a thousand dollars. 1800 01:28:49,284 --> 01:28:53,918 - Priscilla McMillan had remarkable connection 1801 01:28:53,943 --> 01:28:57,333 because she was chosen to interview Oswald 1802 01:28:57,375 --> 01:29:00,426 then because she was good in Russian, 1803 01:29:00,473 --> 01:29:04,646 she was able to talk with Marina after the assassination. 1804 01:29:04,803 --> 01:29:06,315 Then they became friends 1805 01:29:06,363 --> 01:29:09,270 and then she wrote a book called "Marina and Lee." 1806 01:29:09,429 --> 01:29:12,446 And it's very personal about the two of them. 1807 01:29:13,063 --> 01:29:18,265 - She gave me the right to write the truth 1808 01:29:18,485 --> 01:29:23,376 as I saw it, no matter how unfavorable it might be. 1809 01:29:24,748 --> 01:29:27,288 They say, there's a document that calls you 1810 01:29:27,313 --> 01:29:30,148 a witting collaborator of the CIA. 1811 01:29:30,413 --> 01:29:31,679 What do you make of that? 1812 01:29:31,704 --> 01:29:33,488 Witting. 1813 01:29:33,513 --> 01:29:35,332 - A witting. - Asset, 1814 01:29:35,357 --> 01:29:36,617 an unwitting asset? 1815 01:29:36,876 --> 01:29:38,232 I think they say witting, 1816 01:29:38,233 --> 01:29:39,567 so I guess that means... 1817 01:29:39,592 --> 01:29:44,592 Witting no, I just, witting around me. 1818 01:29:45,103 --> 01:29:46,103 No. 1819 01:29:47,673 --> 01:29:50,626 You applied to work for the CIA? 1820 01:29:52,553 --> 01:29:57,955 - Apparently I did in the summer of 1953, was it '53? 1821 01:29:58,333 --> 01:30:03,333 I've seen that date, but I think while I was in college, 1822 01:30:03,543 --> 01:30:08,543 which would've been summer of '49, I might have. 1823 01:30:09,123 --> 01:30:11,042 Not only was Priscilla Johnson McMillan 1824 01:30:11,043 --> 01:30:13,527 classified as a witting collaborator. 1825 01:30:13,665 --> 01:30:17,498 She was also debriefed by the CIA on multiple occasions. 1826 01:30:18,211 --> 01:30:22,798 In a 1962 contact report, the CIA officer writes, 1827 01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:25,082 "I think that Ms. Johnson can be encouraged 1828 01:30:25,083 --> 01:30:27,286 to write pretty much the articles we want. 1829 01:30:30,056 --> 01:30:35,056 - I was convinced that she will be the right person 1830 01:30:35,456 --> 01:30:36,539 to work with. 1831 01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:41,966 She convinced me that it would be very important 1832 01:30:41,991 --> 01:30:43,024 for history. 1833 01:30:43,636 --> 01:30:46,726 Try to explain why such a thing happened. 1834 01:30:46,806 --> 01:30:50,466 - Marina Oswald Porter, good evening, Marina. 1835 01:30:50,897 --> 01:30:52,721 - Hello, good evening to you too. 1836 01:30:53,803 --> 01:30:55,843 Marina Oswald a hard- 1837 01:30:55,868 --> 01:30:57,451 - There is one person's voice, 1838 01:30:57,493 --> 01:30:59,356 obviously missing from this story. 1839 01:31:00,338 --> 01:31:03,946 Marina Oswald was only 22 at the time of the assassination. 1840 01:31:04,299 --> 01:31:08,127 She's in her eighties now, still living in the Dallas area. 1841 01:31:08,808 --> 01:31:11,138 Marina had long been a convincing witness, 1842 01:31:11,163 --> 01:31:12,902 proclaiming Oswald's guilt. 1843 01:31:12,903 --> 01:31:14,492 But in the '80s and '90s, 1844 01:31:14,493 --> 01:31:17,356 she became an outspoken critic of the official story. 1845 01:31:18,438 --> 01:31:20,898 She did a few interviews during this time, 1846 01:31:20,969 --> 01:31:22,739 but it was clear that most of the media 1847 01:31:22,764 --> 01:31:25,326 had no intention of taking her seriously. 1848 01:31:25,445 --> 01:31:29,525 And she has refused all requests for the last 25 years. 1849 01:31:29,563 --> 01:31:31,702 - According to all the evidence of that... 1850 01:31:31,703 --> 01:31:34,592 - Conspiracy theories are intact, questions do remain 1851 01:31:34,593 --> 01:31:36,578 and people don't believe. 1852 01:31:37,123 --> 01:31:39,802 Among those who don't believe are Mrs. Kenneth Porter, 1853 01:31:39,803 --> 01:31:41,723 the former wife of Lee Harvey Oswald. 1854 01:31:41,748 --> 01:31:43,922 Do you believe that he did not pull the trigger 1855 01:31:43,951 --> 01:31:45,986 that he did not fire the fatal shots? 1856 01:31:46,826 --> 01:31:50,449 - Well, he definitely did not fire the shots, 1857 01:31:50,736 --> 01:31:54,496 according to all the evidence that I have right now. 1858 01:31:54,563 --> 01:31:56,452 - You acknowledge that Lee Harvey Oswald 1859 01:31:56,453 --> 01:31:58,542 was a man who had been abusive to you. 1860 01:31:58,543 --> 01:32:01,653 You have said recently that you did not love him in any way. 1861 01:32:01,982 --> 01:32:04,560 - I never said I did not love him. 1862 01:32:04,585 --> 01:32:05,995 Did you love him? 1863 01:32:06,147 --> 01:32:07,718 - Of course I did. 1864 01:32:08,238 --> 01:32:10,312 Why are you so eager now 1865 01:32:10,613 --> 01:32:14,282 to protect his memory when at the time you agreed 1866 01:32:14,283 --> 01:32:16,239 that very likely he was the assassin. 1867 01:32:16,574 --> 01:32:20,750 - Yes, I did believe in government of this country 1868 01:32:20,793 --> 01:32:24,332 and the law and I assumed blindly 1869 01:32:24,333 --> 01:32:26,762 that what I have been told must be correct. 1870 01:32:26,793 --> 01:32:29,458 - But the fact is that there have been a number 1871 01:32:29,483 --> 01:32:30,942 of independent investigations now 1872 01:32:30,943 --> 01:32:32,852 by independent journalists and by independent authors. 1873 01:32:32,853 --> 01:32:34,812 And they also also have come to the conclusion. 1874 01:32:34,813 --> 01:32:35,879 They have come to the conclusion- 1875 01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:37,937 - No, no, they come to the conclusion... 1876 01:32:37,962 --> 01:32:41,542 In 1968, Marina testified 1877 01:32:41,646 --> 01:32:44,288 that the Secret Service told her 1878 01:32:44,836 --> 01:32:46,991 you were associated with the CIA. 1879 01:32:47,319 --> 01:32:49,649 - Yeah, well, so what am I supposed do with this? 1880 01:32:49,653 --> 01:32:51,242 What's your reaction? 1881 01:32:51,243 --> 01:32:52,806 Why would they tell her that? 1882 01:32:53,733 --> 01:32:56,092 - I had the impression it was more brother-in-law 1883 01:32:56,093 --> 01:32:58,672 rather than Secret Service or somebody 1884 01:32:58,673 --> 01:33:01,176 that told her to stay clear of me. 1885 01:33:02,667 --> 01:33:04,462 Did you stay in touch with Marina 1886 01:33:04,487 --> 01:33:06,027 after the assassination? 1887 01:33:06,046 --> 01:33:07,736 - We arranged twice to get together. 1888 01:33:07,783 --> 01:33:11,882 Once was after she had testified 1889 01:33:11,883 --> 01:33:14,613 at the Warren Commission, then one other time 1890 01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:17,320 after she bought a house, 1891 01:33:17,345 --> 01:33:18,736 she wanted to show it to me. 1892 01:33:18,761 --> 01:33:21,526 And I went over and we visited with our children. 1893 01:33:21,561 --> 01:33:23,901 You know, it was just very sad 1894 01:33:23,939 --> 01:33:30,914 because what had happened... in the Kennedy being killed 1895 01:33:30,933 --> 01:33:32,922 was the biggest thing in either of our lives 1896 01:33:32,923 --> 01:33:35,955 and it was just an awful, awful thing. 1897 01:33:36,493 --> 01:33:39,898 So I didn't pursue seeing her more. 1898 01:33:40,343 --> 01:33:45,043 And then, she got taken up by the people 1899 01:33:45,044 --> 01:33:46,762 who thought there was a conspiracy. 1900 01:33:47,170 --> 01:33:49,388 Wouldn't it be nice to think it wasn't he, 1901 01:33:49,956 --> 01:33:51,132 if you're the wife. 1902 01:33:53,739 --> 01:33:56,145 - I finally did get a hold of Marina's phone number. 1903 01:33:57,013 --> 01:33:58,336 And she actually answered. 1904 01:33:59,391 --> 01:34:03,238 Marina was very friendly, but she still declined an interview. 1905 01:34:03,772 --> 01:34:07,502 She told me not to waste my life on this, that it's too late, 1906 01:34:07,527 --> 01:34:09,206 and that the truth will never come out. 1907 01:34:17,242 --> 01:34:19,752 - The official story just does not stand up 1908 01:34:19,777 --> 01:34:20,877 to scrutiny at all 1909 01:34:20,903 --> 01:34:23,360 and those who believe it are not invested enough 1910 01:34:23,385 --> 01:34:24,785 and I'd even go so far as to say, 1911 01:34:24,810 --> 01:34:26,588 they're not patriotic enough 1912 01:34:27,043 --> 01:34:30,023 to try to learn a little bit of very important history. 1913 01:34:30,048 --> 01:34:31,281 It's all out there now. 1914 01:34:32,716 --> 01:34:34,556 One of the things that you study, 1915 01:34:34,603 --> 01:34:36,882 if you try and take in the big picture, 1916 01:34:36,883 --> 01:34:40,305 is what happened to American foreign policy after. 1917 01:34:40,891 --> 01:34:43,041 When Kennedy was assassinated, 1918 01:34:43,066 --> 01:34:46,229 there was not one American combat troop in Vietnam. 1919 01:34:47,230 --> 01:34:51,061 By 1967, there were over half a million there. 1920 01:34:51,783 --> 01:34:56,052 American foreign policy becomes much more militant, 1921 01:34:56,053 --> 01:34:58,366 much more violent in a third world. 1922 01:34:59,423 --> 01:35:00,682 - In the coming years, 1923 01:35:00,683 --> 01:35:03,202 as the Kennedy case is better understood 1924 01:35:03,203 --> 01:35:06,442 we'll have a less exceptionalist view of ourselves. 1925 01:35:06,443 --> 01:35:07,892 We don't want to look at ourselves 1926 01:35:07,893 --> 01:35:09,482 as a shining city on a hill. 1927 01:35:09,483 --> 01:35:10,974 That's simply a fantasy. 1928 01:35:11,343 --> 01:35:14,172 The failure of the Warren Commission 1929 01:35:14,173 --> 01:35:17,742 truly did contribute to the decline of America democracy 1930 01:35:17,743 --> 01:35:18,969 and belief in the government. 1931 01:35:19,179 --> 01:35:22,062 And as cynicism that permeates the system today. 1932 01:35:23,043 --> 01:35:24,282 - The direction we're heading now 1933 01:35:24,283 --> 01:35:26,762 is this one that's quite terrifying, endless war, 1934 01:35:26,763 --> 01:35:28,642 the militarization of our own police, 1935 01:35:28,643 --> 01:35:31,310 the huge incarceration state we have. 1936 01:35:31,399 --> 01:35:33,218 It's a frightening situation we're in. 1937 01:35:33,883 --> 01:35:36,122 It's part of our national legacy, 1938 01:35:36,123 --> 01:35:37,123 what happened here. 1939 01:35:37,143 --> 01:35:39,362 It's part of what steered us in the direction 1940 01:35:39,363 --> 01:35:41,392 of the national security state we have today. 1941 01:35:41,393 --> 01:35:44,292 We're not told the truth about major policy decisions 1942 01:35:44,293 --> 01:35:46,050 for decades afterwards, if ever, 1943 01:35:46,581 --> 01:35:48,241 and as a result, we have a hidden history 1944 01:35:48,263 --> 01:35:49,451 of the United States. 1945 01:35:50,153 --> 01:35:51,636 - There's no mystery here. 1946 01:35:53,223 --> 01:35:54,843 It's all self-evident. 1947 01:35:55,301 --> 01:35:56,769 There was a coup, 1948 01:35:56,918 --> 01:35:59,378 it was designed to be a false mystery 1949 01:35:59,403 --> 01:36:01,555 and the debate would be eternal 1950 01:36:01,596 --> 01:36:05,739 and the focus on why it was done forgotten. 1951 01:36:06,833 --> 01:36:08,533 There's a lot of people 1952 01:36:08,558 --> 01:36:12,548 who don't like to think the worst about their government. 1953 01:36:13,183 --> 01:36:15,863 Who don't wanna believe that the Warren Commission 1954 01:36:15,902 --> 01:36:17,479 was a deliberate cover up 1955 01:36:17,946 --> 01:36:21,286 and that Oswald was really an agent of this government, 1956 01:36:21,313 --> 01:36:24,727 and the people around Oswald framed him 1957 01:36:24,751 --> 01:36:26,904 for a crime he didn't commit. 1958 01:36:27,533 --> 01:36:30,399 It's not "mom apple pie in America" 1959 01:36:30,423 --> 01:36:32,533 to think things like that. 1960 01:36:33,330 --> 01:36:35,521 - In order to commit yourself to truth here, 1961 01:36:35,883 --> 01:36:37,643 you're changing your very identity 1962 01:36:39,134 --> 01:36:41,957 from a citizen of a democracy 1963 01:36:42,554 --> 01:36:47,297 to a subject of a military empire. 1964 01:36:48,828 --> 01:36:49,861 It's a big step. 1965 01:36:58,493 --> 01:37:00,462 Their theory is that you 1966 01:37:00,463 --> 01:37:03,223 and Michael were involved in surveillance activities 1967 01:37:03,241 --> 01:37:04,527 of the radical left. 1968 01:37:04,995 --> 01:37:06,618 What? 1969 01:37:06,703 --> 01:37:08,164 - That you and Michael were involved in 1970 01:37:08,188 --> 01:37:10,743 surveillance activities of the radical left 1971 01:37:12,815 --> 01:37:13,847 and that watching- 1972 01:37:13,848 --> 01:37:15,276 - Who would be the radical left? 1973 01:37:16,165 --> 01:37:17,784 Cuban sympathizers. 1974 01:37:18,298 --> 01:37:19,398 - Oh. 1975 01:37:19,503 --> 01:37:20,596 Communists. 1976 01:37:22,004 --> 01:37:23,261 - Oh, absolute news to me, 1977 01:37:23,286 --> 01:37:27,496 I wasn't-was not aware of surveilling anybody 1978 01:37:28,302 --> 01:37:29,559 or watching Oswald. 1979 01:37:30,943 --> 01:37:33,442 Maybe watching Oswald was a job you had 1980 01:37:33,443 --> 01:37:36,802 to keep an eye on this, young communist defector 1981 01:37:36,803 --> 01:37:37,855 who had returned? 1982 01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,887 - Nonsense, absolute nonsense. 1983 01:37:41,583 --> 01:37:44,863 Have you ever done any work for the FBI or CIA? 1984 01:37:47,786 --> 01:37:52,032 - No, I haven't. No, I was not Oswald's sitter 1985 01:37:52,033 --> 01:37:54,602 for the CIA or whatever kind of story 1986 01:37:54,603 --> 01:37:55,912 they're trying to tell. 1987 01:37:55,913 --> 01:37:59,052 One of the things that I have felt very strongly 1988 01:37:59,053 --> 01:38:02,242 is that it was important for me to answer questions 1989 01:38:02,243 --> 01:38:05,962 and to say what I knew, because I'm interested in truth. 1990 01:38:05,963 --> 01:38:09,912 I have really less and less patience 1991 01:38:09,913 --> 01:38:12,729 with the people who are still looking for a conspiracy. 1992 01:38:13,103 --> 01:38:15,082 It's great that we live in a country 1993 01:38:15,083 --> 01:38:19,266 that where people can put out their false notions freely. 1994 01:38:19,442 --> 01:38:22,032 That doesn't happen in much of the world 1995 01:38:22,073 --> 01:38:26,202 and we can be proud that people can write books 1996 01:38:26,203 --> 01:38:28,012 that are full of falsehoods 1997 01:38:28,013 --> 01:38:29,706 and print 'em and not get jailed. 1998 01:38:34,573 --> 01:38:39,223 I'm a very independent person, nobody tells me what to do.