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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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(birds chirping)
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Alex Gibney: In 2002, from
a secret location in Thailand,
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CIA officers
cabled headquarters
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with details
about the interrogation
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of a prisoner.
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Techniques to be used
might cause him to die,
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in which case
he would be cremated
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so his body
would not be found.
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But if he survived,
there was a concern.
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Would the agency give
reasonable assurances
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that the prisoner
would remain in isolation,
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possibly forever?
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Headquarters reassured
the team.
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The detainee "will never
be placed in a situation
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"where he has
any significant contact
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"with others
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"and should remain
incommunicado
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for the remainder
of his life."
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♪ ♪
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Nearly 20 years later,
the CIA has kept its promise.
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The detainee lives
in Camp 5
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in Guantanamo Prison
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on the southeastern tip
of Cuba,
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a few hundred yards
from an ocean
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he can hear
but is not allowed to see.
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(waves crashing)
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He's never been charged
with a crime.
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He's never been permitted
to challenge his detention.
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He's been told
that will never change.
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(somber music playing)
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(sirens wailing,
people shouting)
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(loud boom)
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(rumbling)
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(siren wailing)
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Alberto J. Mora:
There was a fear and fury
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that gripped the nation
after 9/11.
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I was in the Pentagon
the day the aircraft hit
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and then worked in the Pentagon
for the next four years.
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There was the fear
that the next attack
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would come tomorrow
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or that afternoon
or in the next half hour.
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And the fury
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at the sheer inhumanity
of 3,000 murders.
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There was
a bedrock conviction
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that the individuals
who had planned this attack
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and executed it
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had opted
out of the human race.
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I don't think there was
an American who didn't feel
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that we had
to go back hard.
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That was
the national emotion.
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And I think in the process,
we lost our bearings in time.
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Lawrence Wilkerson:
We did some really
stupid things
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in those first few days
based on our fear
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and based on an attempt
to try and secure the people.
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There was this expectation
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we're going
to get hit again,
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it's going to hit
the White House
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is going to hit
the State Department.
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I looked out my window
and saw National Airport,
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and I said, whoa,
that's about ten seconds away.
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And I didn't want to stay
in my office, you know.
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That's how,
that's how frenetic
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the atmosphere was
at that time.
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I think those
first few days
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were a struggle
in the mind
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for the President
and the Vice President.
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They had failed
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to the order
of Pearl Harbor.
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So they were very afraid
the American people
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were going
to throw them out.
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I want you all to know
this nation stands
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with the good people
of New York City
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and New Jersey
and Connecticut
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as we mourn the loss
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of thousands
of our citizens.
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Person (in crowd):
George, we can't hear you!
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President George W. Bush:
I can hear you.
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(cheering)
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I can hear you, the rest
of the world hears you,
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and the people who knocked
these buildings down
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will hear
all of us soon.
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(cheering)
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(whooping)
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Crowd (chanting):
USA! USA!
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USA! USA!
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USA!
USA!
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USA! USA!
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USA! USA!
USA! USA!
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USA! USA! USA!
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Gibney:
In its righteous anger,
America would strike back...
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with unmatched
fury and force.
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(explosions booming)
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The invasion
of Afghanistan.
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Peter Jennings:
If you're just tuning in
for the first time
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to watch another program,
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it-it's hard to begin
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where to tell you
how much has happened today.
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Gibney:
Shock and awe in Iraq...
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(people cheering)
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...which led to ISIS.
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Which led to more terror
and more targeted killing.
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The global war on terror
has cost us
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eight trillion dollars.
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Nine hundred thousand people
have been killed.
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Thirty-eight million
have been displaced.
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As President Bush promised,
we have made ourselves heard.
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(explosion booms)
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With all our money
and might,
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did we inspire the world
with our ideals?
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We retreated
from Afghanistan in defeat,
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leaving resentment
and betrayal in our wake.
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What led us
to this place?
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I would argue
that it all started
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as a failure
of intelligence,
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both of our
intelligence agencies
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and ourselves
as citizens
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in our refusal
to listen to anything
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but what we wanted
to hear.
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(triumphant theme playing)
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Announcer:
Live from Camp David,
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a special edition
of "Meet the Press"
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with Tim Russert.
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An exclusive interview with
Vice President Dick Cheney.
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And we are green top
in the shadows
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of the presidential retreat
at Camp David.
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Mr. Vice President,
good morning and welcome.
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Morning, Tim.
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There have been
restrictions placed
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on the United States
intelligence gathering,
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reluctance to use
unsavory characters,
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those who violated
human rights to assist
in intelligence gathering.
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Will we lift some
of those restrictions?
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Well, I think so.
I think, uh,
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if you're gonna deal only
with, uh, sort of, uh...
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officially approved
certified good guys,
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you're not going to find out
what the bad guys are doing.
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It is a mean, nasty, dangerous,
dirty business out there,
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and we have to operate
in that arena.
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Uh, I'm convinced
we can do it.
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We can do it successfully,
but we need to make certain
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that we have not tied
the hands, if you will,
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of our
intelligence communities
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in terms of accomplishing
their mission.
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John Rizzo: I knew
based on my experience
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that CIA would be directed,
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be given legal authorities
that it had never had.
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So I was trying to think
of every conceivable
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and legal action
we could take
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on a covert basis to counter
what had just happened
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and also,
above all, prevent
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another 9/11
from happening.
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Scatter, scatter,
please go home.
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Rizzo:
I remember that morning
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there was an evacuation
of the CIA headquarters.
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Let's go.
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Rizzo:
I saw my fellow
employees walking,
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many running,
to their cars.
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It quickly developed
a huge gridlock.
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So I thought to myself,
well, to hell with it,
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I'm just going
to stay here.
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So I closed the door
of my office.
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And honestly, in those
first few minutes,
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I started scribbling down
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uh, the implications
of what was happening
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and what CIA
might be asked to do
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in the wake
of these attacks.
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I was literally brainstorming
at that point.
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Wilkerson:
It was quite clear
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with a threat like Al-Qaeda,
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we were going to have
a problem with intelligence,
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especially the kind
you get on the battlefield.
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So people started
looking around
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for who could be
the best
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to interrogate anyone detained
on that battlefield.
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And lo and behold,
there weren't any.
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The best we could do
was 12 or 13
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who had done it before
at the FBI.
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Daniel J. Jones: I came
to the Senate from spending
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a number of years in the FBI
doing counter-terrorism work,
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specifically Al-Qaeda
international operations.
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And I think the CIA
truly believed,
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Tenet particularly,
that it was their fault
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for not catching 9/11.
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After all, they never
passed information
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about the hijackers
to the FBI.
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So they wanted to be the
individuals with the successes.
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They wanted to be
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the tip of the spear,
so to speak, in this fight,
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notwithstanding the fact
that they weren't prepared.
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And this wasn't
something the CIA
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has historically engaged in.
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But six days after 9/11,
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a covert action authority
was signed by the President
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giving different US
government agencies,
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particularly the CIA,
special secret powers
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to battle Al-Qaeda
and keep the country safe.
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Rizzo: Capture and detain
senior Al-Qaeda officials.
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These are words
I wrote that first morning.
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But of course,
prior to 9/11,
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CIA had never captured
or detained anybody.
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They would sometimes
question people
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that a foreign
allied government
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had captured overseas.
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But we had never
operated a system
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where we would do
the capturing
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and we would do the holding
and we would do the detaining.
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So again, this was
tabula rasa for us
at that point.
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It was decided
CIA would be responsible
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for the top echelon
of Al-Qaeda.
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By that point,
the military had stood up
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the detention facility
in Guantanamo Bay.
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The thought was that
would be largely preserved
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for lower-ranking officials
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but that the CIA
would take the lead
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for capturing
the higher-level officials.
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Jones: The CIA did do
research on detention
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and eventually concluded
it was a bad idea.
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Somebody said the thought
of holding someone endlessly
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is incredibly scary to me.
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00:11:00,709 --> 00:11:02,792
I don't want to be called back
from retirement to say,
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00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:04,334
what do I do with this guy?
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And yet they begin a detention
interrogation program.
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Gibney: The interrogation
program was designed,
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00:11:09,751 --> 00:11:13,000
in the words of the CIA,
to do something different.
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When publicly revealed,
that difference set off
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a media firestorm.
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George Tenet:
It's been portrayed as this--
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we sat around
the campfire and said,
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00:11:22,042 --> 00:11:24,584
"Oh boy, now we go get
to torture people."
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Well, we don't
torture people.
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Let me say that again to you.
We don't torture people.
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-Okay.
-Come on, George.
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-We don't torture people--
-Khalid Shaikh Mohammed?
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We don't torture--
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-Waterboarding?
-We do not...
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-It's torture.
-I don't talk about techniques,
and we don't torture people.
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Now listen to--
No, listen to me.
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I want you to listen to me.
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I know that this program
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has saved lives.
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I know
we've disrupted plots.
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Gibney: For years,
the CIA promoted
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its new interrogation program
as a success.
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George Tenet was awarded
the Presidential Medal
of Freedom.
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The CIA worked closely with
celebrated Hollywood filmmakers
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00:12:03,292 --> 00:12:04,792
to promote a fable
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00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:06,667
that its
interrogation techniques
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00:12:06,751 --> 00:12:08,125
were tough but necessary
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00:12:08,209 --> 00:12:10,542
and were responsible
for locating the hideout
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00:12:10,626 --> 00:12:12,000
of Osama Bin Laden.
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00:12:12,083 --> 00:12:13,751
It's one of the great stories
of our time.
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Gibney:
When critics tried to sort
truth from fiction,
255
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,042
they found
alternate accounts hidden
256
00:12:18,125 --> 00:12:20,417
behind the black lines
of redactions
257
00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:22,792
and at the bottom
of shredding machines.
258
00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:26,292
Finding out
what really happened
259
00:12:26,375 --> 00:12:27,709
would require
putting together
260
00:12:27,792 --> 00:12:29,417
bits and pieces
of evidence that remained
261
00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:33,667
along with testimony
not censored by the CIA.
262
00:12:34,918 --> 00:12:36,542
Rizzo: As soon as
the President signed
263
00:12:36,626 --> 00:12:38,626
the Presidential finding,
264
00:12:38,709 --> 00:12:40,876
CIA began planning.
265
00:12:40,959 --> 00:12:43,709
The way I was thinking was
to just pull everything
266
00:12:43,792 --> 00:12:44,918
out of the toolkit.
267
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,667
I mean, we were starting
at square one.
268
00:12:46,751 --> 00:12:48,626
We were scouting
potential locations
269
00:12:48,709 --> 00:12:50,667
where these
Al-Qaeda officials,
270
00:12:50,751 --> 00:12:53,250
if captured,
would be held.
271
00:12:53,334 --> 00:12:55,250
And the event that really
propelled it, of course,
272
00:12:55,334 --> 00:12:58,459
was when we did capture
our first high-level official,
273
00:12:58,542 --> 00:13:01,125
a man named
Abu Zubaydah.
274
00:13:01,209 --> 00:13:03,083
News Anchor:
US officials tell NBC News
275
00:13:03,167 --> 00:13:05,751
Zubaydah may have been
nabbed just in time.
276
00:13:05,834 --> 00:13:08,792
Intelligence reports indicate
he was already planning
277
00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:10,792
the next wave
of terrorist attacks
278
00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:13,334
against US targets.
279
00:13:13,417 --> 00:13:15,834
Gibney: Abu Zubaydah
is the forever prisoner
280
00:13:15,918 --> 00:13:17,417
at the heart of this story.
281
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:20,792
His capture, detention,
and interrogation by the CIA
282
00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:24,375
is the origin story
of America's failure
of intelligence
283
00:13:24,459 --> 00:13:26,209
and our retreat
from the ideals
284
00:13:26,292 --> 00:13:28,083
we claim to be fighting for.
285
00:13:28,167 --> 00:13:31,042
For many years, it was
an impossible story to tell
286
00:13:31,125 --> 00:13:34,542
because the CIA prevented
key witnesses from talking.
287
00:13:34,626 --> 00:13:38,500
One of those was
the ex-FBI agent Ali Soufan.
288
00:13:38,584 --> 00:13:40,334
When he first testified
in Congress,
289
00:13:40,417 --> 00:13:42,167
he was behind
a black screen.
290
00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:45,417
When he wrote his account
of interrogating Abu Zubaydah,
291
00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:47,667
he was ruthlessly redacted
by the CIA,
292
00:13:47,751 --> 00:13:50,000
which even censored the use
293
00:13:50,083 --> 00:13:52,500
of his own
first person pronoun.
294
00:13:52,584 --> 00:13:55,542
It's very difficult, to me,
to put it out for you
295
00:13:55,626 --> 00:13:57,250
when I cannot talk
about the story,
296
00:13:57,334 --> 00:13:59,459
the, you know
what's going on.
297
00:13:59,542 --> 00:14:01,542
So you can,
you can see that.
298
00:14:01,626 --> 00:14:03,542
You can see here
the one-letter word.
299
00:14:03,626 --> 00:14:05,918
Gibney: Rather than fight
an endless legal battle,
300
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,083
Soufan chose to publish
with whole pages blacked out.
301
00:14:10,167 --> 00:14:12,417
It was the protest
that made my interview
302
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:14,167
with Soufan very difficult.
303
00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:16,042
You call this guy Boris.
304
00:14:16,125 --> 00:14:18,667
-Is Boris his real name?
-No.
305
00:14:18,751 --> 00:14:21,918
I cannot talk about,
uh, about him,
306
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,959
and I cannot even mention
his real name.
307
00:14:28,751 --> 00:14:30,959
Gibney:
This is Boris.
308
00:14:31,042 --> 00:14:32,709
His real name
is James Mitchell.
309
00:14:32,792 --> 00:14:36,250
He also wrote a book
about the interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah.
310
00:14:36,334 --> 00:14:40,792
But Mitchell's book had
the full cooperation
of the CIA.
311
00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:43,959
Because Mitchell was
the inventor of EITs,
312
00:14:44,042 --> 00:14:46,167
the acronym for what
the CIA called
313
00:14:46,250 --> 00:14:48,209
Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques
314
00:14:48,292 --> 00:14:51,334
and what the rest
of the world called torture.
315
00:14:52,459 --> 00:14:54,417
If my boss tells me
it's legal,
316
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:57,334
especially if the President
has approved it,
317
00:14:57,417 --> 00:14:59,334
I'm not going to get
into the nuances
318
00:14:59,417 --> 00:15:01,709
about what some guy
in the basement
319
00:15:01,792 --> 00:15:04,167
or what some journalist
thinks about it.
320
00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:06,792
Because they're free
to trade places with me
321
00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:08,918
any time they think
they can do a better job
322
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,584
of protecting Americans.
323
00:15:11,667 --> 00:15:13,626
Gibney: If you hear
a little bit of agitation
324
00:15:13,709 --> 00:15:14,959
in Mitchell's voice,
325
00:15:15,042 --> 00:15:16,792
it's on account
of his own frustration
326
00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:19,459
with how the CIA
has portrayed his role.
327
00:15:19,542 --> 00:15:22,250
So we agree
to an interview.
328
00:15:22,334 --> 00:15:25,834
Then I sued the CIA
to get Soufan's book
unredacted.
329
00:15:25,918 --> 00:15:29,500
Unexpectedly,
the CIA backed down.
330
00:15:29,584 --> 00:15:31,918
Soufan agreed to sit down
one more time,
331
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,125
knowing he could now tell me
what really happened.
332
00:15:36,709 --> 00:15:38,042
Since 9/11,
333
00:15:38,125 --> 00:15:41,667
I was nonstop traveling
around the world,
334
00:15:41,751 --> 00:15:46,334
and finally, I came back
around Easter of 2002,
335
00:15:46,417 --> 00:15:50,125
and I was hoping to go with,
uh, spend some Easter time
336
00:15:50,209 --> 00:15:52,500
with the family
in Pennsylvania.
337
00:15:52,584 --> 00:15:54,000
But I got a phone call.
338
00:15:54,083 --> 00:15:55,709
They said, "You're going
to be going to
339
00:15:55,792 --> 00:15:58,292
interview Abu Zubaydah."
340
00:15:58,375 --> 00:16:01,334
They called me because
I've been investigating
341
00:16:01,417 --> 00:16:02,959
Al-Qaeda for a while.
342
00:16:03,042 --> 00:16:06,250
I was involved in the
East Africa embassy bombings,
343
00:16:06,334 --> 00:16:07,918
the "USS Cole" attack,
344
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,334
and I had sources reporting
on Abu Zubaydah.
345
00:16:11,417 --> 00:16:12,918
So Abu Zubaydah wasn't
346
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,042
a character that came
out of nowhere to me.
347
00:16:15,125 --> 00:16:16,918
Abu Zubaydah was
an individual,
348
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,334
a terrorist, an operative,
349
00:16:18,417 --> 00:16:21,584
that I've been following,
uh, on for a while.
350
00:16:21,667 --> 00:16:25,918
And that's why, at the time,
the FBI and the CIA,
351
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,167
they felt that
I should be there
352
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:30,876
helping the CIA
interrogating Abu Zubaydah.
353
00:16:38,417 --> 00:16:40,417
Rizzo:
Abu Zubaydah was captured
354
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:42,709
in a firefight
in Pakistan,
355
00:16:42,792 --> 00:16:44,918
and he was
immediately whisked
356
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,584
to the then brand-new
first CIA detention facility.
357
00:16:50,667 --> 00:16:54,125
Personnel were assigned there
in, literally, days.
358
00:17:03,792 --> 00:17:06,375
Ali Soufan:
We came with the CIA,
359
00:17:06,459 --> 00:17:08,542
a couple of officers
360
00:17:08,626 --> 00:17:12,042
plus a medic
and two doctors.
361
00:17:12,125 --> 00:17:14,542
They made it clear to us,
me and Steve Gaudin
362
00:17:14,626 --> 00:17:16,209
who was my partner
at the time,
363
00:17:16,292 --> 00:17:18,459
that we're not there
to interrogate Abu Zubaydah.
364
00:17:18,542 --> 00:17:21,751
We're just there to assist
the CIA in the interrogation
365
00:17:21,834 --> 00:17:25,584
because of the knowledge
and the expertise
366
00:17:25,667 --> 00:17:27,500
we have on this subject.
367
00:17:27,584 --> 00:17:29,626
They basically read us
these instructions of,
368
00:17:29,709 --> 00:17:31,959
"Hey, listen, it's
a whole 'nother ball game.
369
00:17:32,042 --> 00:17:33,751
"It's a whole
another world now.
370
00:17:33,834 --> 00:17:37,459
"This is all about preventing
the next September 11th.
371
00:17:37,542 --> 00:17:39,500
This isn't about prosecution."
372
00:17:39,584 --> 00:17:41,584
It changed...
373
00:17:41,667 --> 00:17:45,417
the scope and nature
of pretty much everything
374
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:48,667
Ali and I had probably
ever done before to that day.
375
00:17:50,417 --> 00:17:52,584
So we got to this location,
376
00:17:52,667 --> 00:17:54,751
pretty rural area.
377
00:17:54,834 --> 00:17:56,292
It wasn't like
we walked into
378
00:17:56,375 --> 00:17:58,959
this nice, beautiful "site,"
so to speak.
379
00:17:59,042 --> 00:18:01,209
It was just like a house.
380
00:18:01,292 --> 00:18:03,542
Next thing we know,
an ambulance gets there,
381
00:18:03,626 --> 00:18:06,751
and they carry Zubaydah
by Ali and I
382
00:18:06,834 --> 00:18:09,000
into the house.
383
00:18:09,083 --> 00:18:11,292
Soufan: Abu Zubaydah
was finally captured
384
00:18:11,375 --> 00:18:13,250
in Faisalabad, Pakistan.
385
00:18:13,334 --> 00:18:16,918
He tried to escape,
and he was shot in the process.
386
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,125
So he required
intensive medical care.
387
00:18:21,209 --> 00:18:23,417
Steve Gaudin:
He had been shot
a number of times,
388
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:26,334
mostly abdominal
and in the leg.
389
00:18:26,417 --> 00:18:29,500
But, and this was very strange
to both Ali and I,
390
00:18:29,584 --> 00:18:31,584
the folks in charge
for some reason
391
00:18:31,667 --> 00:18:33,125
were starting to doubt
whether or not
392
00:18:33,209 --> 00:18:34,667
he was actually Abu Zubaydah.
393
00:18:36,792 --> 00:18:38,959
Soufan:
We went to the chief of base,
394
00:18:39,042 --> 00:18:41,709
and we said, "When do you want
to start the interview?"
395
00:18:41,792 --> 00:18:43,334
And he said,
"Look, me and my guys,
396
00:18:43,417 --> 00:18:45,250
"we have no idea
who the guy is.
397
00:18:45,334 --> 00:18:48,083
"We don't know anything
about these groups.
398
00:18:48,167 --> 00:18:49,751
You know about this guy,
don't you?"
399
00:18:49,834 --> 00:18:51,334
We're like, "Yeah."
He said, "Well, pff,
400
00:18:51,417 --> 00:18:52,500
"what are you waiting for?
401
00:18:52,584 --> 00:18:54,584
Go and start
interrogating him."
402
00:18:55,792 --> 00:18:57,876
So Steve and I,
we go in.
403
00:18:57,959 --> 00:19:01,209
Abu Zubaydah was handcuffed
to the gurney.
404
00:19:01,292 --> 00:19:04,709
He has a bag, a big bag
on his, on his head.
405
00:19:05,959 --> 00:19:08,334
I said, "Salaam alaikum,
alaikum as-salaam,
406
00:19:08,417 --> 00:19:11,500
peace be upon you."
And I said,
"What's your name?"
407
00:19:11,584 --> 00:19:14,209
And he looked very different
than the pictures.
408
00:19:14,292 --> 00:19:15,876
He does not have a beard.
409
00:19:15,959 --> 00:19:17,918
It seems that he had
some procedure
410
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,959
in order to alter
his, his shape.
411
00:19:20,042 --> 00:19:22,959
And he had a cloudy eye.
412
00:19:23,042 --> 00:19:25,292
One of his eyes was,
like, getting infected,
413
00:19:25,375 --> 00:19:28,250
and he was kind of
looking confused,
414
00:19:28,334 --> 00:19:31,209
"Who the heck is this guy
who's speaking Arabic to me
415
00:19:31,292 --> 00:19:33,500
and where the hell
am I, right?"
416
00:19:33,584 --> 00:19:35,083
So I said,
"What's your name?"
417
00:19:35,167 --> 00:19:38,542
And he said "Daoud,"
418
00:19:38,626 --> 00:19:39,751
one of his aliases.
419
00:19:39,834 --> 00:19:42,083
It means David in Arabic.
420
00:19:42,167 --> 00:19:45,250
And I said, "Okay,
so what if I call you Hani?
421
00:19:47,083 --> 00:19:50,709
He had that, "oh, my gig is up"
look on his face.
422
00:19:51,834 --> 00:19:53,709
Hani is the name
that his mother
423
00:19:53,792 --> 00:19:56,083
nicknamed him as a child.
424
00:19:56,167 --> 00:19:59,709
So he was shocked to hear
that name coming from me.
425
00:20:08,667 --> 00:20:11,042
Hesham Abu Zubaidah:
His birth name actually
is Zayn al-Abidin.
426
00:20:11,125 --> 00:20:13,042
But my mother
called him Hani.
427
00:20:15,959 --> 00:20:18,626
And he was five
or six years older than me.
428
00:20:18,709 --> 00:20:22,375
He was a really great artist.
He, he liked to draw.
429
00:20:24,334 --> 00:20:27,334
I remember the first drawing
I saw from him.
430
00:20:27,417 --> 00:20:30,709
He had a hand holding a pen
and drawing an eye.
431
00:20:30,792 --> 00:20:33,250
And the eye had
a tear coming out it.
432
00:20:33,334 --> 00:20:35,334
He carried pain with him.
433
00:20:35,417 --> 00:20:38,209
He used to express
his feeling by drawing.
434
00:20:40,626 --> 00:20:42,250
When I go
through his diary,
435
00:20:42,334 --> 00:20:46,250
I have so much good memory
with that guy.
436
00:20:46,334 --> 00:20:50,709
He was a really nice,
funny older brother.
437
00:20:50,792 --> 00:20:52,542
I don't remember
his being religious.
438
00:20:52,626 --> 00:20:53,709
He used to play piano,
439
00:20:53,792 --> 00:20:55,417
he used to have
a girlfriend upstairs,
440
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:56,918
you know,
and he used to smoke,
441
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,334
go out with his friends.
442
00:20:59,417 --> 00:21:01,959
Gibney: When Abu Zubaydah
was captured in Pakistan,
443
00:21:02,042 --> 00:21:04,792
FBI and CIA agents
thought they had nabbed
444
00:21:04,876 --> 00:21:07,083
a diabolical
Al-Qaeda mastermind.
445
00:21:07,167 --> 00:21:09,834
They found photos
of his many disguises,
446
00:21:09,918 --> 00:21:11,876
a bundle of fake passports,
447
00:21:11,959 --> 00:21:14,167
an address book
of Al-Qaeda operatives,
448
00:21:14,250 --> 00:21:15,751
and a videotape
449
00:21:15,834 --> 00:21:17,792
taken from a hideout
in Afghanistan.
450
00:21:24,542 --> 00:21:27,083
(speaking in foreign language)
451
00:21:37,209 --> 00:21:38,751
Gibney: If the video
was incriminating,
452
00:21:38,834 --> 00:21:41,209
there were other materials
that showed evidence
453
00:21:41,292 --> 00:21:42,876
of a more complex character.
454
00:21:42,959 --> 00:21:45,500
There was a diary in which
the young Hani spoke
455
00:21:45,584 --> 00:21:47,083
to himself in the future,
456
00:21:47,167 --> 00:21:50,250
hoping that that future Hani,
Hani number two,
457
00:21:50,334 --> 00:21:51,709
would have the wisdom
to understand
458
00:21:51,792 --> 00:21:53,918
the troubled life
of Hani one,
459
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,751
a Palestinian in exile.
460
00:21:55,834 --> 00:21:56,876
♪ ♪
461
00:21:56,959 --> 00:22:00,083
♪ The ship
is like a ghost... ♪
462
00:22:00,167 --> 00:22:01,918
Gibney: After growing up
in Saudi Arabia,
463
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,918
he left home
and spent a few years
traveling the world,
464
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,667
gliding in and out
of colleges,
465
00:22:06,751 --> 00:22:09,083
odd jobs, and love affairs.
466
00:22:09,167 --> 00:22:12,000
His diaries are filled
with hookups and romances
467
00:22:12,083 --> 00:22:14,667
as he tries to reconcile
his sexual desires
468
00:22:14,751 --> 00:22:16,500
with the dictates of Islam.
469
00:22:16,584 --> 00:22:19,667
From Bangkok to Manila
to St. Louis,
470
00:22:19,751 --> 00:22:21,417
he was a rootless wanderer
471
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,584
whose life soundtrack was
the music of Chris de Burgh.
472
00:22:24,667 --> 00:22:26,751
♪ Sailor ♪
473
00:22:27,626 --> 00:22:30,250
♪ Can you hear me? ♪
474
00:22:32,375 --> 00:22:34,042
♪ Sailor ♪
475
00:22:35,375 --> 00:22:38,500
♪ Hear my call ♪
476
00:22:38,584 --> 00:22:41,083
Gibney: In 1991,
he found himself in India,
477
00:22:41,167 --> 00:22:44,000
harboring a growing anger
over Israel's treatment
478
00:22:44,083 --> 00:22:45,459
of his fellow Palestinians.
479
00:22:46,542 --> 00:22:48,375
That sense
of injustice led him,
480
00:22:48,459 --> 00:22:52,542
like so many Muslim men,
to the land of jihad.
481
00:22:52,626 --> 00:22:55,042
"To hell with Chris de Burgh"
wrote Hani 1,
482
00:22:55,125 --> 00:22:57,459
"I desire to be a martyr."
483
00:22:58,584 --> 00:23:02,792
♪ Take me home ♪
484
00:23:03,542 --> 00:23:06,167
(mortars firing)
485
00:23:10,292 --> 00:23:12,250
Soufan: Abu Zubaydah
went to Afghanistan
486
00:23:12,334 --> 00:23:14,500
in the early '90s.
487
00:23:14,584 --> 00:23:18,626
And during a battle
against the Najibullah regime,
488
00:23:18,709 --> 00:23:23,584
he was hit with a bullet,
and he lost his memory.
489
00:23:29,125 --> 00:23:32,083
After he recovered,
he went to Al-Qaeda,
490
00:23:32,167 --> 00:23:34,959
and he said he wanted
to join Al-Qaeda.
491
00:23:35,042 --> 00:23:36,375
But they were very hesitant
492
00:23:36,459 --> 00:23:38,584
to allow somebody
like him to join
493
00:23:38,667 --> 00:23:40,834
because of his
state of mind.
494
00:23:40,918 --> 00:23:44,125
So the approval never came,
and he took it personal.
495
00:23:44,209 --> 00:23:45,417
(laughs)
496
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,959
And I don't think he ever
forgave Al-Qaeda for that.
497
00:23:49,042 --> 00:23:52,000
So he started
to do it himself.
498
00:23:52,083 --> 00:23:53,959
Gibney: He became
an independent facilitator
499
00:23:54,042 --> 00:23:56,334
based in Pakistan,
forging passports
500
00:23:56,417 --> 00:23:58,959
and arranging travel
and connections.
501
00:23:59,042 --> 00:24:00,626
He established
a secret network
502
00:24:00,709 --> 00:24:02,000
among many of the jihadis,
503
00:24:02,083 --> 00:24:04,500
who wanted access to
the Khalden training camp
504
00:24:04,584 --> 00:24:05,959
in Afghanistan.
505
00:24:08,542 --> 00:24:10,250
While many came
from different groups
506
00:24:10,334 --> 00:24:11,792
and for different reasons,
507
00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:13,292
Khalden became
a recruiting pool
508
00:24:13,375 --> 00:24:15,083
of operatives
for Bin Laden.
509
00:24:15,167 --> 00:24:17,292
Khalden was not part
of Al-Qaeda,
510
00:24:17,375 --> 00:24:20,125
but many in Washington
were convinced it was.
511
00:24:27,918 --> 00:24:30,083
Rizzo: Abu Zubaydah,
in those early days,
512
00:24:30,167 --> 00:24:34,709
was deemed a very big fish
in the Al-Qaeda organization.
513
00:24:34,792 --> 00:24:36,584
He was one of the few names
514
00:24:36,667 --> 00:24:40,500
that was certainly
recognizable to me.
515
00:24:42,417 --> 00:24:44,792
Prior to 9/11,
the intelligence we had
516
00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:50,167
on the Al-Qaeda hierarchy
was woefully lacking.
517
00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:53,918
Beyond Bin Laden
and his deputy al-Zawahiri,
518
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,167
we really had picked up
the identities
519
00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:59,959
of very few
of the more senior
Al-Qaeda officials.
520
00:25:00,042 --> 00:25:02,125
Abu Zubaydah was
one of the few
521
00:25:02,209 --> 00:25:06,209
that had actually come up
on the radar screen.
522
00:25:06,292 --> 00:25:09,417
And he seemed
to be popping up constantly
523
00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:11,626
as a facilitator,
524
00:25:11,709 --> 00:25:13,709
perhaps operational commander.
525
00:25:13,792 --> 00:25:16,834
Every time, seemingly,
we would chase down
a possible lead
526
00:25:16,918 --> 00:25:19,459
to an Al-Qaeda facility
527
00:25:19,542 --> 00:25:20,876
or individual,
528
00:25:20,959 --> 00:25:23,584
Abu Zubaydah's name
would be attached to it.
529
00:25:28,459 --> 00:25:29,918
Gibney:
In his pre-9/11 diaries,
530
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,751
Abu Zubaydah distanced
himself from Bin Laden.
531
00:25:32,834 --> 00:25:36,209
While he railed against America
for its support of Israel,
532
00:25:36,292 --> 00:25:38,125
he objected to the way
that Bin Laden
533
00:25:38,209 --> 00:25:40,709
was willing
to kill innocents.
534
00:25:40,792 --> 00:25:43,209
Still, he operated
as a kind of travel agent
535
00:25:43,292 --> 00:25:44,792
for all kinds of jihadis,
536
00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,375
including Al-Qaeda
foot soldiers.
537
00:25:47,459 --> 00:25:49,334
That confused the CIA.
538
00:25:49,417 --> 00:25:51,876
Field agents identified him
as an independent.
539
00:25:51,959 --> 00:25:54,667
But analysts in Washington
were determined to believe
540
00:25:54,751 --> 00:25:57,876
that he was the number three
or four in Al-Qaeda.
541
00:25:57,959 --> 00:26:01,667
It appears that they thought
he was a central character
542
00:26:01,751 --> 00:26:05,626
from whom they could extract
all manner of intelligence
543
00:26:05,709 --> 00:26:07,417
on Al-Qaeda
for the one hand
544
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:10,375
and, more importantly,
for intelligence
545
00:26:10,459 --> 00:26:11,918
on what was coming next.
546
00:26:13,542 --> 00:26:15,250
Soufan:
Our main goal was to see
547
00:26:15,334 --> 00:26:16,626
if there is
imminent threat,
548
00:26:16,709 --> 00:26:20,125
so we didn't really
have time to play.
549
00:26:20,209 --> 00:26:22,626
So during that conversation,
we said,
550
00:26:22,709 --> 00:26:24,667
"How do you think
you get caught, Hani?
551
00:26:24,751 --> 00:26:27,292
"What were you doing
that led us to you?
552
00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:29,500
What mistakes did you do?"
553
00:26:29,584 --> 00:26:30,834
And all of a sudden,
554
00:26:30,918 --> 00:26:33,417
he talked about an operation
that he was planning to do.
555
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,542
There was an attack in a country
friendly to the United States.
556
00:26:37,834 --> 00:26:39,459
Gibney:
We forced the US government
557
00:26:39,542 --> 00:26:42,083
to hand over a copy
of Ali Soufan's notes
558
00:26:42,167 --> 00:26:44,834
from his interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah.
559
00:26:44,918 --> 00:26:46,709
The plot revealed
by Zubaydah
560
00:26:46,792 --> 00:26:49,292
involved $100,000
from Saudi Arabia
561
00:26:49,375 --> 00:26:53,626
for an operation to be
conducted in Palestine.
562
00:26:53,709 --> 00:26:55,626
Soufan:
It was a pretty
advanced operation.
563
00:26:55,709 --> 00:26:57,417
So he thought because
of all these calls
564
00:26:57,500 --> 00:27:00,959
and what he was trying to do,
he got caught.
565
00:27:01,042 --> 00:27:03,250
We had no idea
about that operation.
566
00:27:03,334 --> 00:27:05,959
So we, uh, wrote it.
567
00:27:06,042 --> 00:27:08,834
We sent it back
to headquarters,
568
00:27:08,918 --> 00:27:10,042
and we waited.
569
00:27:11,542 --> 00:27:13,125
Gibney:
Back at CIA headquarters,
570
00:27:13,209 --> 00:27:16,209
George Tenet was thrilled
that Abu Zubaydah was talking
571
00:27:16,292 --> 00:27:18,626
and helping to prevent
future plots.
572
00:27:18,709 --> 00:27:21,626
He wanted to congratulate
the CIA agents involved.
573
00:27:21,709 --> 00:27:25,167
But when Tenet was told that
FBI agents were responsible,
574
00:27:25,250 --> 00:27:26,792
he flew into a rage.
575
00:27:26,876 --> 00:27:29,626
He ordered his subordinates
to find a CIA team
576
00:27:29,709 --> 00:27:31,959
to take over
the interrogation.
577
00:27:32,042 --> 00:27:34,292
Rizzo:
The FBI officials on the scene
578
00:27:34,375 --> 00:27:37,626
thought that Zubaydah
was cooperating
579
00:27:37,709 --> 00:27:40,918
and that they were building
a rapport with him.
580
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,667
That was not articulated
to me at the time.
581
00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:47,167
CIA officials were convinced
582
00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:49,167
that he was withholding
583
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:51,709
far more sensitive
and important stuff,
584
00:27:51,792 --> 00:27:53,709
so I was not told that,
585
00:27:53,792 --> 00:27:55,542
look, the FBI guys think
586
00:27:55,626 --> 00:27:57,375
Zubaydah is telling
everything he knows.
587
00:27:57,459 --> 00:27:59,751
It's just going
to take some time.
588
00:27:59,834 --> 00:28:02,042
But if I had been told
589
00:28:02,125 --> 00:28:06,083
and I'd relayed that
to my CIA management,
590
00:28:06,167 --> 00:28:08,459
I think the response would be,
from CIA management,
591
00:28:08,542 --> 00:28:11,167
"Well, time is
the one thing we don't have."
592
00:28:13,083 --> 00:28:16,209
Gibney: Time plays
a strange role in this story.
593
00:28:16,292 --> 00:28:18,375
There was enormous pressure
to get information
594
00:28:18,459 --> 00:28:21,709
out of Abu Zubaydah
to prevent future attacks.
595
00:28:21,792 --> 00:28:24,500
That's usually
the rationale for torture.
596
00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:26,876
It's called
the ticking time bomb theory.
597
00:28:26,959 --> 00:28:28,876
While the bomb is ticking,
there's no time
598
00:28:28,959 --> 00:28:31,334
to play nice
with bad guys.
599
00:28:31,417 --> 00:28:34,417
But strangely,
the CIA wasn't ready
600
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:36,209
to take the gloves off.
601
00:28:36,292 --> 00:28:39,792
The agency needed to invent
a new kind of interrogation
602
00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:42,125
that would not land
its agents in jail,
603
00:28:42,209 --> 00:28:44,334
and that would take time.
604
00:28:45,459 --> 00:28:46,876
Meanwhile, in Thailand,
605
00:28:46,959 --> 00:28:48,584
FBI interrogators
were getting
606
00:28:48,667 --> 00:28:50,959
vital information
out of Abu Zubaydah
607
00:28:51,042 --> 00:28:53,250
Out of the blue,
the CIA sent a cable
608
00:28:53,334 --> 00:28:56,626
telling the agents
to stop the interrogation.
609
00:28:56,709 --> 00:28:58,626
That confused
the FBI agents.
610
00:28:58,709 --> 00:29:00,918
What happened
to all the urgency?
611
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,667
But orders are orders.
612
00:29:02,751 --> 00:29:04,375
They were told
to wait for a team
613
00:29:04,459 --> 00:29:06,918
from CIA headquarters
to arrive.
614
00:29:08,626 --> 00:29:09,751
Back in Washington,
615
00:29:09,834 --> 00:29:12,209
the CIA was desperately
trying to figure out
616
00:29:12,292 --> 00:29:13,542
who should be on the team.
617
00:29:13,626 --> 00:29:17,083
And now, there was
no more time left to lose.
618
00:29:19,542 --> 00:29:23,167
The video you're about to see
is a deposition from a lawsuit
619
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:24,792
brought against key players
620
00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:26,626
of the CIA
interrogation program.
621
00:29:26,709 --> 00:29:28,334
Woman: Can you raise
your right hand, please?
622
00:29:28,417 --> 00:29:30,083
Do you
solemnly swear that...
623
00:29:30,167 --> 00:29:32,167
Other right hand, please.
(laughs)
624
00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:34,125
Gibney: The man wearing
the blue and white tie
625
00:29:34,209 --> 00:29:35,876
is Jose Rodriguez.
626
00:29:35,959 --> 00:29:37,500
In 2002,
he was the head
627
00:29:37,584 --> 00:29:40,083
of the CIA's
Counterterrorism Center,
628
00:29:40,167 --> 00:29:41,125
or CTC.
629
00:29:41,209 --> 00:29:42,334
-Yes, I do.
-Gibney: He was the man
630
00:29:42,417 --> 00:29:43,959
Tenet leaned on to replace
631
00:29:44,042 --> 00:29:45,459
the FBI interrogators
632
00:29:45,542 --> 00:29:47,792
and to find someone
to invent overnight
633
00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:50,667
a new CIA
interrogation program.
634
00:29:50,751 --> 00:29:52,792
Lawyer: I want
to direct your attention
635
00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:54,375
to the time period
636
00:29:54,459 --> 00:29:56,500
in which, um,
doctors Mitchell
637
00:29:56,584 --> 00:29:58,083
and Jessen were hired.
638
00:29:58,167 --> 00:30:00,375
-Mm-hmm.
-Lawyer: Um...
639
00:30:02,209 --> 00:30:04,083
And, uh,
for the record,
640
00:30:04,167 --> 00:30:07,083
doctors Mitchell and Jessen
are here today.
641
00:30:07,167 --> 00:30:09,459
Um, did you select
642
00:30:09,542 --> 00:30:13,042
Dr. Mitchell
to work with CTC?
643
00:30:13,125 --> 00:30:16,709
Once he was recommended
and I met, uh, Dr. Mitchell,
644
00:30:16,792 --> 00:30:20,250
yes, I recommended him
to continue working with us.
645
00:30:20,334 --> 00:30:21,375
Lawyer: Okay.
646
00:30:21,459 --> 00:30:24,000
Um, I want to read you
647
00:30:24,083 --> 00:30:26,417
a passage from your book
"Hard Measures."
648
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,042
-Do you see that there?
-Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.
649
00:30:28,125 --> 00:30:29,709
-Lawyer: That looks like you.
-Rodriguez: That looks like me?
650
00:30:29,792 --> 00:30:31,167
Lawyer:
Yeah. Um...
651
00:30:31,250 --> 00:30:35,667
and, um, if you could take
a look at page 55.
652
00:30:35,751 --> 00:30:37,375
-Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.
-Lawyer: You see that?
653
00:30:37,459 --> 00:30:39,459
And in the second
full paragraph
654
00:30:39,542 --> 00:30:43,334
is the sentence, "Within
two days of AZ's capture,
655
00:30:43,417 --> 00:30:45,584
"we tracked down
the contractor
656
00:30:45,667 --> 00:30:47,250
"and asked if he would
accompany a team
657
00:30:47,334 --> 00:30:49,876
"of CTC officers
to the black site
658
00:30:49,959 --> 00:30:52,417
where we hoped Abu Zubaydah
would be interrogated."
659
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:53,751
-Do you see that?
-Rodriguez: Yes.
660
00:30:53,834 --> 00:30:56,834
Lawyer: First of all,
the reference to AZ
661
00:30:56,918 --> 00:30:58,375
is Abu Zubaydah, correct?
662
00:30:58,459 --> 00:30:59,959
-Rodriguez: Correct.
-Lawyer: And the reference
663
00:31:00,042 --> 00:31:03,417
to the contractor
is Dr. Mitchell.
Is that correct?
664
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:04,542
-Rodriguez: Correct.
-Lawyer: Okay.
665
00:31:04,626 --> 00:31:06,876
How did you reach him
666
00:31:06,959 --> 00:31:09,709
within two days
of AZ's capture?
667
00:31:09,792 --> 00:31:11,500
Well, I assume that
he was at headquarters.
668
00:31:11,584 --> 00:31:14,042
Somebody, you know,
somebody reached him.
669
00:31:14,125 --> 00:31:15,375
I did not reach him myself.
670
00:31:15,459 --> 00:31:17,751
Somebody in
the Counterterrorism Center
671
00:31:17,834 --> 00:31:19,167
reached him.
672
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:24,459
Jones:
Jim Mitchell was identified
673
00:31:24,542 --> 00:31:26,125
because one of
the chief lawyers
674
00:31:26,209 --> 00:31:27,751
in the
counterterrorism division
675
00:31:27,834 --> 00:31:30,751
happened to be married
to another CIA employee
676
00:31:30,834 --> 00:31:31,876
who was in something called
677
00:31:31,959 --> 00:31:34,292
the Office
of Technical Services.
678
00:31:34,375 --> 00:31:35,959
This involved psychologists.
679
00:31:36,042 --> 00:31:38,167
And there was
a psychologist on contract,
680
00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:42,083
Jim Mitchell,
who had written
a report for the CIA.
681
00:31:42,167 --> 00:31:44,042
This report was based
on what was believed
682
00:31:44,125 --> 00:31:45,417
to be an Al-Qaeda manual,
683
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:48,083
and it included details
on interrogations.
684
00:31:48,167 --> 00:31:51,083
Gibney: The manual was called
"The Manchester Manual"
685
00:31:51,167 --> 00:31:54,417
in honor of where it was found
in Manchester, England,
686
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:55,792
by Ali Soufan.
687
00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:58,250
Soufan: I was
in Manchester investigating
688
00:31:58,334 --> 00:32:00,000
a member of Al-Qaeda.
689
00:32:00,083 --> 00:32:02,876
And we did
a search of his house
690
00:32:02,959 --> 00:32:04,709
where we found
a handwritten book,
691
00:32:04,792 --> 00:32:07,500
"The Manchester Manual."
692
00:32:07,584 --> 00:32:10,375
It's mostly
about urban warfare.
693
00:32:10,459 --> 00:32:13,751
And it has a section about
what happens if you get caught.
694
00:32:13,834 --> 00:32:17,626
What should you
expect to endure?
695
00:32:17,709 --> 00:32:20,375
It talks about
very harsh techniques,
696
00:32:20,459 --> 00:32:23,626
beatings, rape,
they're going to be sodomized,
697
00:32:23,709 --> 00:32:26,083
their family going
to be tortured.
698
00:32:26,167 --> 00:32:28,584
These are the things
that were ingrained
699
00:32:28,667 --> 00:32:31,375
in the head
of Qaeda operatives.
700
00:32:32,709 --> 00:32:34,667
Gibney:
Soufan recognized it
as a kind of
701
00:32:34,751 --> 00:32:36,709
cut-and-paste
terrorist pamphlet.
702
00:32:36,792 --> 00:32:39,083
But the CIA imagined
it might be
703
00:32:39,167 --> 00:32:41,000
a window into
the Islamist mind.
704
00:32:41,083 --> 00:32:44,125
So they hired a psychologist
named James Mitchell
705
00:32:44,209 --> 00:32:45,459
to analyze it.
706
00:32:45,542 --> 00:32:47,292
He and his colleague,
Bruce Jessen,
707
00:32:47,375 --> 00:32:50,584
concluded that the manual
was a diabolical guide
708
00:32:50,667 --> 00:32:52,834
to play mind games
on interrogators,
709
00:32:52,918 --> 00:32:55,542
which could only be overcome
through harsh physical
710
00:32:55,626 --> 00:32:58,459
and psychological
countermeasures.
711
00:32:58,542 --> 00:33:00,375
Even though those
techniques were milder
712
00:33:00,459 --> 00:33:02,709
than the torture
expected by the manual,
713
00:33:02,792 --> 00:33:05,125
the message found favor
at the agency.
714
00:33:05,209 --> 00:33:07,209
Mitchell, who had
no experience
715
00:33:07,292 --> 00:33:08,626
interrogating anyone,
716
00:33:08,709 --> 00:33:10,751
was the only candidate
considered
717
00:33:10,834 --> 00:33:12,250
for the job of inventing
718
00:33:12,334 --> 00:33:16,000
the CIA's new system
of interrogation.
719
00:33:16,083 --> 00:33:17,792
Jones: There was
no blue ribbon commission.
720
00:33:17,876 --> 00:33:20,000
There was no outreach
to the FBI
721
00:33:20,083 --> 00:33:22,000
or to the Department
of Defense
722
00:33:22,083 --> 00:33:24,042
or any other US agency,
723
00:33:24,125 --> 00:33:26,292
or foreign entity,
for that matter.
724
00:33:26,375 --> 00:33:28,125
Gibney:
The CIA's hiring policy
725
00:33:28,209 --> 00:33:29,209
was much more casual.
726
00:33:29,292 --> 00:33:31,417
A CTC lawyer whose pictures
727
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:33,167
have been scrubbed
from the internet
728
00:33:33,250 --> 00:33:35,334
just asked his wife
if she knew anyone
729
00:33:35,417 --> 00:33:36,834
who might be good
for the job.
730
00:33:36,918 --> 00:33:39,584
Jones: This lawyer says,
"Abu Zubaydah's been captured.
731
00:33:39,667 --> 00:33:41,167
I don't know what we're going
to do with this guy."
732
00:33:41,250 --> 00:33:43,626
And she says, "Well,
I got a guy in my office
733
00:33:43,709 --> 00:33:45,250
"who just wrote a report
734
00:33:45,334 --> 00:33:47,834
"on this believed-to-be
an Al-Qaeda training manual.
735
00:33:47,918 --> 00:33:49,209
You should talk to him."
736
00:33:54,959 --> 00:33:57,751
Mitchell: I got
a phone call from the CIA
737
00:33:57,834 --> 00:34:00,918
and they said, "You need
to come in tomorrow."
738
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,918
I was curious
because that was,
739
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,459
you know, that sounds like
comic book, uh, material.
740
00:34:06,542 --> 00:34:07,751
So I went.
741
00:34:10,292 --> 00:34:12,375
I parked in the furthest space
in the parking lot,
742
00:34:12,459 --> 00:34:14,125
the only place
I could find.
743
00:34:14,209 --> 00:34:18,876
That building is a labyrinth
of hallways and rooms.
744
00:34:18,959 --> 00:34:19,959
I got to the door,
745
00:34:20,042 --> 00:34:22,125
and they rushed me
into the room,
746
00:34:22,209 --> 00:34:24,792
told me that they had
captured Abu Zubaydah,
747
00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:27,209
and asked me
if I would deploy
748
00:34:27,292 --> 00:34:29,667
with the interrogation team
749
00:34:29,751 --> 00:34:33,375
to help them... recognize
750
00:34:33,459 --> 00:34:36,042
if he was using
sophisticated resistance
751
00:34:36,125 --> 00:34:37,334
to interrogation techniques
752
00:34:37,417 --> 00:34:39,250
to resist
providing information.
753
00:34:39,334 --> 00:34:42,375
Lawyer: He said he provided
psychological support.
754
00:34:42,459 --> 00:34:43,626
What does that mean?
755
00:34:43,709 --> 00:34:46,375
He provided, uh, research
756
00:34:46,459 --> 00:34:49,375
and applied
psychological support,
757
00:34:49,459 --> 00:34:51,876
-uh, to the agency.
-Lawyer: Mm-hmm.
758
00:34:51,959 --> 00:34:53,500
Um, so he did research?
759
00:34:53,584 --> 00:34:55,125
I assume so.
760
00:34:55,209 --> 00:34:56,751
Lawyer:
You don't know?
761
00:34:57,500 --> 00:34:58,584
No.
762
00:34:58,667 --> 00:35:00,459
Jones: So Jim Mitchell
walks in the door,
763
00:35:00,542 --> 00:35:03,667
says that I have experience
in interrogations,
764
00:35:03,751 --> 00:35:05,709
describes what he would do,
765
00:35:05,792 --> 00:35:07,959
and Jose Rodriguez says,
"You're hired,
766
00:35:08,042 --> 00:35:09,751
"and we're going
to put you on a flight
767
00:35:09,834 --> 00:35:12,626
to the first detention site
right now."
768
00:35:13,918 --> 00:35:14,959
No other vetting.
769
00:35:15,042 --> 00:35:19,834
(airplane whooshing)
770
00:35:24,626 --> 00:35:28,167
(insects chirping)
771
00:35:28,250 --> 00:35:31,209
Gaudin:
Those first few days
were very chaotic.
772
00:35:31,292 --> 00:35:32,918
He was very wounded
773
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,167
and sometimes while we
were talking to him,
774
00:35:35,250 --> 00:35:37,042
the doctors had to come in
and change bandages,
775
00:35:37,125 --> 00:35:38,417
or change dressings.
776
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:40,584
And sometimes, the,
the medical folks would say,
777
00:35:40,667 --> 00:35:43,667
"You can't talk to him
for a little while.
We need to let him rest."
778
00:35:44,834 --> 00:35:46,834
Soufan:
They said he was dehydrated.
779
00:35:46,918 --> 00:35:49,500
So Stephen and I
were caring for him.
780
00:35:49,584 --> 00:35:52,000
We put ice on his lips.
781
00:35:52,083 --> 00:35:54,792
Ali is holding his hand.
Ali's rubbing his forehead.
782
00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:57,500
Ali's praying with him,
saying, "Hang in there, brother.
783
00:35:57,584 --> 00:35:59,709
"Don't worry. We're going
to take care of you.
784
00:35:59,792 --> 00:36:01,250
You're going to be okay."
785
00:36:01,334 --> 00:36:03,292
He defecates
all over himself.
786
00:36:04,959 --> 00:36:06,500
Soufan:
Later on, I don't know,
787
00:36:06,584 --> 00:36:09,292
two or three o'clock
in the morning,
the medic came in
788
00:36:09,375 --> 00:36:11,876
and he said,
"Is this guy important?"
789
00:36:11,959 --> 00:36:13,918
And I said,
"Yeah, I believe so."
790
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,667
He said,
"Well, if, you know,
791
00:36:15,751 --> 00:36:18,542
"if you think
he knows information,
792
00:36:18,626 --> 00:36:19,876
"you better get it
from him now.
793
00:36:19,959 --> 00:36:21,417
You better go
and talk to him now."
794
00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:23,751
I said, "Why?"
He said, "Because he's septic.
795
00:36:23,834 --> 00:36:25,959
"I don't think he will live
796
00:36:26,042 --> 00:36:28,125
to see the morning."
797
00:36:28,209 --> 00:36:31,709
So the chief of base wrote
a cable about the situation,
798
00:36:31,792 --> 00:36:34,834
and the answer came back,
short and sweet:
799
00:36:34,918 --> 00:36:37,542
"Death is not an option."
800
00:36:37,626 --> 00:36:40,792
We had to come up
with a cover story
801
00:36:40,876 --> 00:36:43,584
to take him to a hospital.
802
00:36:43,667 --> 00:36:46,125
We were wearing
military uniforms,
803
00:36:46,209 --> 00:36:48,125
said he was one
of our soldiers,
804
00:36:48,209 --> 00:36:50,459
that he went crazy
and he got shot.
805
00:36:50,542 --> 00:36:53,792
And that's why we're
taking him for medical care.
806
00:36:53,876 --> 00:36:55,042
Reporter:
Abu Zubaydah,
807
00:36:55,125 --> 00:36:56,626
Al-Qaeda's
top field commander,
808
00:36:56,709 --> 00:36:57,751
is talking.
809
00:36:57,834 --> 00:36:59,417
The trouble is,
American interrogators
810
00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:01,626
are not sure
whether to believe him.
811
00:37:01,709 --> 00:37:03,042
Donald Rumsfeld:
I don't know
that I want to give
812
00:37:03,125 --> 00:37:05,918
a day-to-day report
on, on his, uh,
813
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,792
how enthusiastic he is
about his situation.
814
00:37:09,876 --> 00:37:14,042
Um... he is not well.
815
00:37:14,125 --> 00:37:16,417
He's got
several bullet holes in him,
816
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:17,918
and, uh...
817
00:37:19,334 --> 00:37:20,751
well, how fast he'll recover
818
00:37:20,834 --> 00:37:24,584
and when he'll start
cooperating, time will tell.
819
00:37:28,167 --> 00:37:30,334
Jones: While Abu Zubaydah
is in the hospital,
820
00:37:30,417 --> 00:37:31,959
things begin to change.
821
00:37:33,209 --> 00:37:34,959
It's during
this period of time
822
00:37:35,042 --> 00:37:37,918
that Jim Mitchell is sent
to the detention site.
823
00:37:39,042 --> 00:37:40,834
He goes merely
as an observer
824
00:37:40,918 --> 00:37:43,876
and to provide feedback
to CIA headquarters.
825
00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:46,209
But his influence
becomes very clear.
826
00:37:46,292 --> 00:37:48,000
They talk about
returning Abu Zubaydah
827
00:37:48,083 --> 00:37:50,167
to the detention site
in an all-white room,
828
00:37:50,250 --> 00:37:51,375
which is very bright,
829
00:37:51,459 --> 00:37:53,792
kept cold.
830
00:37:53,876 --> 00:37:56,792
He'll be kept naked
and sleep deprived.
831
00:37:56,876 --> 00:37:58,834
These are the ideas
that are coming about.
832
00:37:58,918 --> 00:38:00,792
Even though he's not
particularly doing
the interrogation,
833
00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:02,751
these are his ideas
that he's pushing forward.
834
00:38:02,834 --> 00:38:04,626
Gibney: They weren't
asking you at that time
835
00:38:04,709 --> 00:38:06,626
to help with interrogations,
or were they?
836
00:38:06,709 --> 00:38:08,459
Not to do
interrogations.
837
00:38:08,542 --> 00:38:11,125
They were help-- asking me
to help brainstorm
838
00:38:11,209 --> 00:38:14,500
with the interrogation team,
the whole interrogation team,
839
00:38:14,584 --> 00:38:17,626
uh, any countermeasures
that they might use,
840
00:38:17,709 --> 00:38:21,667
if he was employing
resistance techniques.
841
00:38:23,459 --> 00:38:26,209
Soufan: He stayed
in the hospital, recovering.
842
00:38:26,292 --> 00:38:29,000
We get a clearance
from the doctors
that we can talk to him,
843
00:38:29,083 --> 00:38:32,125
and we went back
to talking about
844
00:38:32,209 --> 00:38:33,751
what he knows
about a plot.
845
00:38:35,375 --> 00:38:37,000
So I asked him,
846
00:38:37,083 --> 00:38:40,709
"Do you know if Bin Laden
is planning to do anything?"
847
00:38:40,792 --> 00:38:42,542
He said, "Yes,
Al-Qaeda is planning
848
00:38:42,626 --> 00:38:43,918
"to do something.
849
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,417
He has his own people."
850
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,292
I said, "Are you aware of
an operation that's ongoing?"
851
00:38:48,375 --> 00:38:50,709
He said, "Yes,
there's an operation
852
00:38:50,792 --> 00:38:54,500
against an American facility
in a foreign country."
853
00:38:54,584 --> 00:38:56,542
So I said,
"Who's doing this operation?
854
00:38:56,626 --> 00:38:57,918
He said, "al-Zayyat."
855
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,042
We know al-Zayyat
is an alias
856
00:39:00,125 --> 00:39:02,250
for Abu Mohamed al-Masri,
857
00:39:02,334 --> 00:39:03,542
who was the mastermind
858
00:39:03,626 --> 00:39:06,751
of the East Africa
embassy bombings.
859
00:39:06,834 --> 00:39:09,083
Gaudin: So Ali and I
came up with a plan
860
00:39:09,167 --> 00:39:11,250
to show him a photo
of this guy,
861
00:39:11,334 --> 00:39:14,417
and if he identifies him,
he's working with us.
862
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:17,918
I'm not saying he's giving us
the keys to the kingdom,
863
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,834
but we can walk out
of the room and go,
864
00:39:19,918 --> 00:39:21,250
"Hey, I think we're
at the point now we can
865
00:39:21,334 --> 00:39:24,751
start asking him questions
to answers we don't know."
866
00:39:24,834 --> 00:39:28,584
So I had
this electronic organizer,
867
00:39:28,667 --> 00:39:30,709
the HP Jordana.
868
00:39:30,792 --> 00:39:32,375
Soufan:
Steve had downloaded
869
00:39:32,459 --> 00:39:35,250
the poster of
the 22 most-wanted terrorists
870
00:39:35,334 --> 00:39:37,918
that the FBI released
after 9/11.
871
00:39:38,042 --> 00:39:39,751
It had the people
who were involved
872
00:39:39,834 --> 00:39:41,459
in the East Africa
embassy bombings,
873
00:39:41,542 --> 00:39:44,000
the "USS Cole,"
and the Khobar bombing.
874
00:39:44,083 --> 00:39:45,626
All these individuals,
875
00:39:45,709 --> 00:39:47,959
from Mugniyah
to Bin Laden.
876
00:39:48,042 --> 00:39:51,667
So, Steve clicks a photo,
gives me the Palm Pilot.
877
00:39:51,751 --> 00:39:54,792
I didn't look at it to check
if it's the right person,
878
00:39:54,876 --> 00:39:56,209
but I showed Abu Zubaydah.
879
00:39:56,292 --> 00:39:57,918
I said, "Is this the guy?"
880
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,125
And Abu Zubaydah said,
881
00:40:00,209 --> 00:40:02,250
"No, it's not."
882
00:40:02,334 --> 00:40:05,250
I was convinced that al-Zayyat
is Abu Mohamed al-Masri,
883
00:40:05,334 --> 00:40:08,417
and I thought that
he's playing games.
884
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:09,834
So I was really frustrated.
885
00:40:09,918 --> 00:40:12,250
I'm like, "Dude,
we saved your life.
886
00:40:12,334 --> 00:40:14,667
"We're sitting here
like your next of kin,
887
00:40:14,751 --> 00:40:16,250
and you're still
playing games with us."
888
00:40:16,334 --> 00:40:17,626
And Abu Zubaydah
had enough of me.
889
00:40:17,709 --> 00:40:19,876
He said, "Come on, brother,
I'm not playing games.
890
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,167
You know who the guy is."
891
00:40:21,250 --> 00:40:23,500
I said,
"Who the fuck is he then?"
892
00:40:23,584 --> 00:40:27,209
And he said,
"Well, this is Mokhtar."
893
00:40:27,292 --> 00:40:31,584
And when he said "Mokhtar,"
my heart stopped.
894
00:40:31,667 --> 00:40:35,334
Mokhtar, as Abu Zubaydah
identified from the picture,
895
00:40:35,417 --> 00:40:37,751
was Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.
896
00:40:37,834 --> 00:40:39,876
(indistinct chatter)
897
00:40:42,375 --> 00:40:45,584
After 9/11, we had
an operation in Afghanistan
898
00:40:45,667 --> 00:40:47,709
where they found videotapes
899
00:40:47,792 --> 00:40:49,417
and documents
900
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:52,542
in Al-Qaeda's
military community.
901
00:40:52,626 --> 00:40:54,834
One of the videos
is Bin Laden talking
902
00:40:54,918 --> 00:40:57,375
to a paraplegic mullah.
903
00:40:57,459 --> 00:40:59,083
He's talking about 9/11,
904
00:40:59,167 --> 00:41:02,250
praising the operatives
and the operation.
905
00:41:02,334 --> 00:41:04,626
And every time he talks,
he points towards
906
00:41:04,709 --> 00:41:07,209
an individual
next to the camera
907
00:41:07,292 --> 00:41:08,584
and he says, "Mokhtar."
908
00:41:08,667 --> 00:41:10,083
Mokhtar.
909
00:41:10,167 --> 00:41:11,751
Soufan: And then he starts
talking about people
910
00:41:11,834 --> 00:41:13,542
having dreams that
there is Al-Qaeda
911
00:41:13,626 --> 00:41:15,209
playing karate
with America
912
00:41:15,292 --> 00:41:16,792
and Mokhtar is the trainer,
913
00:41:16,876 --> 00:41:18,834
and he's pointing
at Mokhtar.
914
00:41:18,918 --> 00:41:21,042
So we knew that
Mokhtar is important,
915
00:41:21,125 --> 00:41:23,500
but we had no idea
who Mokhtar was.
916
00:41:23,584 --> 00:41:25,000
(monitor beeping)
917
00:41:25,083 --> 00:41:28,876
But we cannot show
Abu Zubaydah that we
did not know that.
918
00:41:28,959 --> 00:41:30,792
So I said,
"Oh, Mokhtar."
919
00:41:30,876 --> 00:41:34,083
He said, "Yeah, you know,
the guy who did
the plane operation."
920
00:41:35,083 --> 00:41:36,417
Basically 9/11.
921
00:41:37,667 --> 00:41:39,709
So he told me that
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
922
00:41:39,792 --> 00:41:40,959
came to visit him.
923
00:41:41,042 --> 00:41:44,000
He had a plan
to take Cessna planes
924
00:41:44,083 --> 00:41:46,459
and fly them into
the World Trade Center,
925
00:41:46,542 --> 00:41:51,000
and he needed resources
for this operation.
926
00:41:51,083 --> 00:41:53,334
Zubaydah told him,
"This is way above me.
927
00:41:53,417 --> 00:41:56,792
I don't have this capability,
nor such resources."
928
00:41:56,876 --> 00:41:58,667
But according
to Abu Zubaydah,
929
00:41:58,751 --> 00:42:01,542
when KSM briefed
the idea later on
930
00:42:01,626 --> 00:42:03,167
to Osama Bin Laden
931
00:42:03,250 --> 00:42:05,834
and some of his
senior lieutenants,
932
00:42:05,918 --> 00:42:08,584
Bin Laden was
not excited about it.
933
00:42:08,667 --> 00:42:11,918
He commented, "Why do you
want to go to war
934
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,459
"with an axe
935
00:42:13,542 --> 00:42:15,375
when you can go
with a bulldozer?"
936
00:42:15,459 --> 00:42:18,167
(sirens wailing)
937
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:19,792
Man: You better
get out of the way!
938
00:42:21,709 --> 00:42:23,667
(monitor beeping)
939
00:42:26,834 --> 00:42:29,459
But again, we cannot
make him feel
940
00:42:29,542 --> 00:42:32,125
that he gave us something
we didn't know.
941
00:42:32,209 --> 00:42:34,626
So I looked at the picture,
I'm like,
942
00:42:34,709 --> 00:42:36,500
"Oh, Steve,
943
00:42:36,584 --> 00:42:39,250
you gave me KSM's photo,
come on, man."
944
00:42:39,334 --> 00:42:42,375
And Steve looked at it,
and then Steve realized
945
00:42:42,459 --> 00:42:43,792
exactly what was going on.
946
00:42:43,876 --> 00:42:46,792
We leave the room and Ali
and I are just shaking.
947
00:42:46,876 --> 00:42:48,751
Did that really just happen?
948
00:42:48,834 --> 00:42:51,751
We just identified
who did 9/11.
949
00:42:51,834 --> 00:42:53,918
That was a huge moment.
950
00:42:54,834 --> 00:42:57,584
So we send it to the CIA.
951
00:42:57,667 --> 00:42:59,751
We were kind of, like, high.
952
00:42:59,834 --> 00:43:02,375
We just identified KSM
as the mastermind of 9/11,
953
00:43:02,459 --> 00:43:03,667
and we get another plot.
954
00:43:03,751 --> 00:43:06,626
You know, we were doing our job
and you just feel that,
955
00:43:06,709 --> 00:43:09,250
you know, wow,
it's working well.
956
00:43:09,334 --> 00:43:11,167
Right. So you're pleased
about that.
957
00:43:14,292 --> 00:43:17,042
Rizzo: I was still hearing
progress reports nightly
958
00:43:17,125 --> 00:43:19,500
from our CIA people.
959
00:43:19,584 --> 00:43:22,167
And they were
increasingly convinced
960
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:24,375
that while he was providing
961
00:43:25,292 --> 00:43:27,000
some good information,
962
00:43:27,083 --> 00:43:29,375
he was definitely
holding back
963
00:43:29,459 --> 00:43:31,209
on the more important stuff,
964
00:43:31,292 --> 00:43:34,375
namely the location
and timing
965
00:43:34,459 --> 00:43:37,834
of another
major terrorist attack.
966
00:43:37,918 --> 00:43:41,125
So that led to people from
our Counterterrorism Center
967
00:43:41,209 --> 00:43:44,709
deciding that the normal
interrogation techniques
968
00:43:44,792 --> 00:43:46,542
that had been applied
up to that point
969
00:43:46,626 --> 00:43:48,584
weren't going to work.
970
00:43:48,667 --> 00:43:51,209
Something more aggressive
had to be done.
971
00:43:53,375 --> 00:43:55,125
Soufan:
Abu Zubaydah was moved
972
00:43:55,209 --> 00:43:56,542
from the hospital,
973
00:43:56,626 --> 00:43:58,375
and they took him back
to the site
974
00:43:58,459 --> 00:44:01,834
that we originally were in.
975
00:44:01,918 --> 00:44:03,209
And, at the black site,
976
00:44:03,292 --> 00:44:06,584
a new team from CTC
had shown up.
977
00:44:09,167 --> 00:44:11,959
The team was comprised
of individuals
978
00:44:12,042 --> 00:44:13,751
that I will give aliases to,
979
00:44:13,834 --> 00:44:16,334
and these aliases
I used in my book.
980
00:44:17,417 --> 00:44:18,751
So there is Wilson,
981
00:44:18,834 --> 00:44:21,292
one of the top
CIA behavioral analysts.
982
00:44:21,375 --> 00:44:23,959
He had a lot of experience
in different regions,
983
00:44:24,042 --> 00:44:25,584
especially the Middle East.
984
00:44:25,667 --> 00:44:27,792
I worked with him before.
985
00:44:27,876 --> 00:44:31,125
Then there was Ed.
He's a CIA interrogator.
986
00:44:31,209 --> 00:44:33,751
We did a few
interrogations together.
987
00:44:33,834 --> 00:44:36,250
There was Frank.
He was a polygrapher.
988
00:44:36,334 --> 00:44:38,918
And then they had
a contractor.
989
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,459
I call him Boris.
990
00:44:40,542 --> 00:44:45,876
But since then, he has been
actively vocal, uh, about this,
991
00:44:45,959 --> 00:44:47,959
so I don't think
anybody will mind me
992
00:44:48,042 --> 00:44:50,459
calling him with his real name,
James Mitchell.
993
00:44:50,542 --> 00:44:53,709
The people who had conducted
a lot of interrogations before
994
00:44:53,792 --> 00:44:57,417
failed to do the job
that the CIA wanted.
995
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,667
So they were looking to use
what I knew about psychology
996
00:45:00,751 --> 00:45:02,459
as a weapon
against our enemies
997
00:45:02,542 --> 00:45:05,292
so that we could
get them to talk.
998
00:45:05,375 --> 00:45:07,000
Soufan:
Wilson introduced Mitchell,
999
00:45:07,083 --> 00:45:10,042
saying that he knows
about interrogation.
1000
00:45:10,125 --> 00:45:14,459
He has a strategy.
The strategy can work.
1001
00:45:14,542 --> 00:45:16,083
Steve and I were just
looking at each other.
1002
00:45:16,167 --> 00:45:19,167
I'm like,
"Well, it's working."
1003
00:45:19,250 --> 00:45:21,626
You know, "If, uh, if
it's working, why break it?"
1004
00:45:21,709 --> 00:45:24,792
Now, it was like,
"Stop what you're doing.
1005
00:45:24,876 --> 00:45:27,584
"'The A-Team' is coming in
and they're taking over.
1006
00:45:27,667 --> 00:45:28,918
You guys are done."
1007
00:45:41,834 --> 00:45:43,042
Soufan:
Mitchell said, look,
1008
00:45:43,125 --> 00:45:45,667
you take everything
away from him
1009
00:45:45,751 --> 00:45:49,167
to the point that
his life, his death,
1010
00:45:49,250 --> 00:45:52,459
his comfort all depends
on the interrogator.
1011
00:45:52,542 --> 00:45:55,125
Mitchell said,
and I'll never forget
1012
00:45:55,209 --> 00:45:56,792
the way his fingers moved,
1013
00:45:56,876 --> 00:46:00,375
"We need to diminish
his capacity to resist."
1014
00:46:00,459 --> 00:46:03,334
Soufan:
This way, he will immediately
start cooperating
1015
00:46:03,417 --> 00:46:05,626
and give you
everything you want.
1016
00:46:05,709 --> 00:46:09,209
And he will see
only one interrogator.
1017
00:46:09,292 --> 00:46:11,751
Only one interrogator.
Nobody else.
1018
00:46:11,834 --> 00:46:13,209
The next time
you meet with him,
1019
00:46:13,292 --> 00:46:15,959
you say, "Our boss
is upset with you."
1020
00:46:16,042 --> 00:46:19,626
You introduce the boss,
which is going to be Ed.
1021
00:46:19,709 --> 00:46:22,918
And then you walk
and you'll never see him again.
1022
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,584
That's it.
So Ed is going to be his god.
1023
00:46:27,167 --> 00:46:30,417
Gibney: With a new god
came a new white Heaven.
1024
00:46:36,584 --> 00:46:38,459
Years later,
while in Guantanamo,
1025
00:46:38,542 --> 00:46:41,292
Abu Zubaydah penned
descriptions and drawings
1026
00:46:41,375 --> 00:46:43,334
of what happened
to him in Thailand.
1027
00:46:55,459 --> 00:46:57,417
(keys jingling,
gate clanks)
1028
00:47:09,876 --> 00:47:11,834
Soufan:
So they put him in the cell.
1029
00:47:11,918 --> 00:47:14,000
They put cameras,
hidden CCTV.
1030
00:47:14,083 --> 00:47:16,083
They were recording
everything.
1031
00:47:16,167 --> 00:47:18,834
He's totally naked.
He has nothing.
1032
00:47:18,918 --> 00:47:22,918
So then Ed walks in,
and Ed tells him,
1033
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,876
"Tell me what
I want to know."
1034
00:47:24,959 --> 00:47:28,250
And Abu Zubaydah
looks at him and he said,
"What do you want to know?"
1035
00:47:28,334 --> 00:47:30,584
An Ed cannot
tell him anything.
1036
00:47:30,667 --> 00:47:33,083
The only thing,
the only thing that Ed can do,
1037
00:47:33,167 --> 00:47:36,250
the instructions
from "the expert"
1038
00:47:36,334 --> 00:47:38,375
is to turn and get out.
1039
00:47:38,459 --> 00:47:40,209
(keys jingling,
gate clanks)
1040
00:47:42,709 --> 00:47:45,709
So they add something
to make Abu Zubaydah's life
more uncomfortable:
1041
00:47:45,792 --> 00:47:46,626
loud music.
1042
00:47:46,709 --> 00:47:48,751
(rock music blaring)
1043
00:47:55,417 --> 00:47:58,459
Then, you wait
for 12 hours or so
1044
00:47:58,542 --> 00:47:59,792
and then he does it again.
1045
00:47:59,876 --> 00:48:01,042
"Tell me what
I want to know."
1046
00:48:01,125 --> 00:48:02,584
"Well, what do you
want to know?"
1047
00:48:02,667 --> 00:48:03,876
You walk out.
1048
00:48:05,042 --> 00:48:07,292
The music that
they played initially
1049
00:48:07,375 --> 00:48:10,500
was music
that the guards had.
1050
00:48:10,584 --> 00:48:11,959
(rock music playing)
1051
00:48:12,042 --> 00:48:14,000
And it was as bad for us
as it was for him
1052
00:48:14,083 --> 00:48:16,584
because we're
in that same building,
1053
00:48:16,667 --> 00:48:18,626
not far from where he's at,
and it's blaring.
1054
00:48:18,709 --> 00:48:20,792
(rock music blaring)
1055
00:48:31,209 --> 00:48:35,500
Eventually, we went
to white noise generators
1056
00:48:35,584 --> 00:48:38,334
because nobody wanted
to listen to that music.
1057
00:48:38,417 --> 00:48:41,542
(static hissing)
1058
00:48:46,584 --> 00:48:49,334
So it goes from this
to sleep deprivation,
1059
00:48:49,417 --> 00:48:51,959
"24 hours didn't work.
Maybe we need 48 hours.
1060
00:48:52,042 --> 00:48:54,667
Oh, 48 hours didn't work.
Maybe we need 72 hours."
1061
00:48:54,751 --> 00:48:56,167
And nothing's coming out.
1062
00:48:56,250 --> 00:49:00,542
(static hissing)
1063
00:49:00,626 --> 00:49:03,500
So they decided to go back
to the loud music,
1064
00:49:03,584 --> 00:49:07,584
the same song again
and again and again, very loud.
1065
00:49:07,667 --> 00:49:09,417
Gibney: Do you remember
what the song was?
1066
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:12,626
I think it was, uh,
Red Hot Chili Peppers.
1067
00:49:12,709 --> 00:49:14,250
It was the only CD
that somebody had.
1068
00:49:14,334 --> 00:49:16,876
Something like, you know,
it was just going, going around.
1069
00:49:16,959 --> 00:49:19,417
♪ What I got you got
to give it to your mama ♪
1070
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:22,959
♪ What I got you've got
to give it to your papa ♪
1071
00:49:23,042 --> 00:49:26,292
I used to like them until now.
I never listened to them again.
1072
00:49:26,375 --> 00:49:29,125
♪ Give it away, give it away,
give it away now ♪
1073
00:49:29,209 --> 00:49:31,709
♪ Give it away,
give it away,
give it away now ♪
1074
00:49:31,792 --> 00:49:34,000
♪ Give it away, give it away,
give it away now ♪
1075
00:49:34,083 --> 00:49:37,167
♪ I can't tell if I'm
a kingpin or a pauper ♪
1076
00:49:37,250 --> 00:49:39,959
♪ ♪
1077
00:49:41,459 --> 00:49:43,000
(water splashes)
1078
00:49:46,125 --> 00:49:48,500
Soufan:
I spoke with Wilson,
1079
00:49:48,584 --> 00:49:50,250
the other psychologist,
1080
00:49:50,334 --> 00:49:51,834
and I said,
"This is crazy."
1081
00:49:51,918 --> 00:49:53,959
And he said, "Look, this guy
is supposedly an expert.
1082
00:49:54,042 --> 00:49:55,250
"He knows what he's doing.
1083
00:49:55,334 --> 00:49:57,626
"What if he's successful?
That will be really good.
1084
00:49:57,709 --> 00:50:00,834
"You know, we don't have
the time and the experts
1085
00:50:00,918 --> 00:50:02,918
"to talk to
all these people.
1086
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,584
Give him a chance."
1087
00:50:04,667 --> 00:50:05,918
But I looked at Wilson,
1088
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,584
and I think
he was just being
1089
00:50:08,667 --> 00:50:09,626
a good soldier
1090
00:50:09,709 --> 00:50:12,083
and saying
the company line.
1091
00:50:12,167 --> 00:50:14,209
But a decision has been made
1092
00:50:14,292 --> 00:50:16,500
in a place way higher
than all of us.
1093
00:50:17,500 --> 00:50:18,417
At one point, they had
1094
00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:20,083
everything approved
by Gonzales.
1095
00:50:20,167 --> 00:50:21,250
And my thing is like,
1096
00:50:21,334 --> 00:50:23,000
"Who the hell is Gonzales?
Is he from DOJ?"
1097
00:50:23,083 --> 00:50:25,709
I had no idea
who Gonzales was at the time.
1098
00:50:25,792 --> 00:50:29,626
And he said, "No, I,
I think he's Bush's lawyer."
1099
00:50:29,709 --> 00:50:32,042
I was like,
"But is he part of DOJ?
1100
00:50:32,125 --> 00:50:34,500
He said,
"I... don't think so.
1101
00:50:34,584 --> 00:50:36,375
I think he's part
of the White House."
1102
00:50:36,459 --> 00:50:38,125
So I said,
"No, we need DOJ."
1103
00:50:38,209 --> 00:50:41,209
They came back and said,
"DOJ gave verbal approval."
1104
00:50:41,292 --> 00:50:43,417
"Verbal approval
don't mean anything.
1105
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:45,042
"You're in the CIA.
I'm in the FBI.
1106
00:50:45,125 --> 00:50:46,417
"You know what
the saying is,
1107
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:49,125
if it's not on paper,
it doesn't exist."
1108
00:50:49,209 --> 00:50:51,125
Gibney: The man
who gave verbal approval
1109
00:50:51,209 --> 00:50:53,542
was John Yoo from
the Department of Justice.
1110
00:50:53,626 --> 00:50:56,000
He provided
unofficial reassurance
1111
00:50:56,083 --> 00:50:57,626
to the CIA,
the White House,
1112
00:50:57,709 --> 00:50:59,375
and the US Attorney General
1113
00:50:59,459 --> 00:51:02,626
that Mitchell's experiments
need not be considered torture
1114
00:51:02,709 --> 00:51:05,125
as long as the interrogators
didn't intend
1115
00:51:05,209 --> 00:51:07,459
to cause severe pain
or suffering.
1116
00:51:16,334 --> 00:51:17,751
Soufan:
These things were going on
1117
00:51:17,834 --> 00:51:20,292
in April, in May.
1118
00:51:20,375 --> 00:51:21,667
Suddenly...
1119
00:51:23,834 --> 00:51:25,626
all intelligence
1120
00:51:25,709 --> 00:51:28,125
that was
flowing before stopped.
1121
00:51:29,334 --> 00:51:31,542
And people in D.C.
were asking...
1122
00:51:32,334 --> 00:51:33,709
"What's going on?"
1123
00:51:36,542 --> 00:51:39,834
A few days and nothing
is coming out from that base.
1124
00:51:39,918 --> 00:51:43,626
Even though everything
that they requested
has been approved.
1125
00:51:45,918 --> 00:51:47,751
And nothing's coming out.
1126
00:51:47,834 --> 00:51:50,292
So Wilson mounted
a campaign
1127
00:51:50,375 --> 00:51:53,292
to bring Steve and I back
to the interrogation room.
1128
00:51:53,375 --> 00:51:55,626
And this was
the first violation
1129
00:51:55,709 --> 00:51:57,709
of the cardinal rule
of Mitchell,
1130
00:51:57,792 --> 00:52:00,125
that he will only see
one person.
1131
00:52:00,209 --> 00:52:03,083
It is going to be Ed,
and he's his god.
1132
00:52:03,167 --> 00:52:06,459
Now, all of a sudden...
we're back.
1133
00:52:08,209 --> 00:52:11,209
I made a cup of tea, and I
brought it to Abu Zubaydah,
1134
00:52:11,292 --> 00:52:13,542
I said, "Take it.
That will make you feel better."
1135
00:52:13,626 --> 00:52:16,000
We covered him
to help him warm up.
1136
00:52:20,626 --> 00:52:23,292
That's something
I told Wilson
1137
00:52:23,375 --> 00:52:25,751
when he brought us back in.
1138
00:52:25,834 --> 00:52:28,459
I said, "I will never talk
to him naked. Period.
1139
00:52:28,542 --> 00:52:32,500
"I will never do that.
I know that's your rule.
1140
00:52:32,584 --> 00:52:36,500
It's approved by Langley,
but I won't go in."
1141
00:52:36,584 --> 00:52:38,834
Abu Zubaydah took the tea,
he drank some,
1142
00:52:38,918 --> 00:52:40,792
and he looked at me
and he smiled.
1143
00:52:47,334 --> 00:52:49,584
It was tough
to reengage Abu Zubaydah.
1144
00:52:49,667 --> 00:52:51,751
He really had no clue
what's happening,
1145
00:52:51,834 --> 00:52:54,334
But we tried
to reengage him,
1146
00:52:54,417 --> 00:52:55,751
and we were able
to bring him back.
1147
00:52:55,834 --> 00:52:58,500
We started the rapport again.
1148
00:52:58,584 --> 00:53:00,959
And sometimes
he's that guy
1149
00:53:01,042 --> 00:53:03,417
that you can sit down
and talk to about everything,
1150
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:05,918
from social justice
to economic justice.
1151
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,709
That guy wasn't
a typical Qaeda operative.
1152
00:53:08,792 --> 00:53:11,083
Rarely he talked
about religion.
1153
00:53:11,167 --> 00:53:13,459
He was more into
American corporations
1154
00:53:13,542 --> 00:53:14,751
controlling the world,
1155
00:53:14,834 --> 00:53:16,918
the United States
destroying grain
1156
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,834
and agricultural products
to maintain prices,
1157
00:53:19,918 --> 00:53:22,334
and the fact that
Americans spend more money
1158
00:53:22,417 --> 00:53:26,125
on their pets
when people are hungry
around the world.
1159
00:53:26,209 --> 00:53:27,375
And I don't argue with him.
1160
00:53:27,459 --> 00:53:29,167
I take these opportunities
1161
00:53:29,250 --> 00:53:30,792
for us to build rapport.
1162
00:53:30,876 --> 00:53:33,167
So I can be lectured
about all these
kind of things,
1163
00:53:33,250 --> 00:53:34,292
you know,
I give him something.
1164
00:53:34,375 --> 00:53:36,125
This is one of the things
that I give him,
1165
00:53:36,209 --> 00:53:38,876
to lecture me
about his views
1166
00:53:38,959 --> 00:53:41,334
of the United States
and the world.
1167
00:53:41,417 --> 00:53:43,250
So I said, "Look, I'm going
to go and get a soda.
1168
00:53:43,334 --> 00:53:45,918
You want anything?"
He said, "Pepsi."
1169
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,459
I said,
"Are you kidding me?
1170
00:53:47,542 --> 00:53:49,125
"After lecturing me
for an hour
1171
00:53:49,209 --> 00:53:51,000
"about American corporations,
1172
00:53:51,083 --> 00:53:52,292
you want Pepsi?"
1173
00:53:52,375 --> 00:53:54,584
He said, "Yeah,
I'm embarrassed,
but I like Pepsi."
1174
00:53:54,667 --> 00:53:55,792
(laughs)
1175
00:53:58,250 --> 00:54:00,667
But Mitchell continued
to interfere.
1176
00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:05,167
Like, one point,
for example,
1177
00:54:05,250 --> 00:54:07,542
we came to talk to him,
Steve and I.
1178
00:54:07,626 --> 00:54:09,209
We walked in the room,
in the cell,
1179
00:54:09,292 --> 00:54:10,792
and it was freezing cold.
1180
00:54:10,876 --> 00:54:12,209
Freezing cold.
1181
00:54:12,292 --> 00:54:14,751
And remember, Abu Zubaydah
was totally nude
1182
00:54:14,834 --> 00:54:17,292
and on the floor,
on a cement floor.
1183
00:54:18,375 --> 00:54:19,709
He looked bluish.
1184
00:54:19,792 --> 00:54:21,000
I went back and said,
1185
00:54:21,083 --> 00:54:22,500
"Are you playing
with the temperature?"
1186
00:54:22,584 --> 00:54:23,751
And he said,
"No, no, no."
1187
00:54:23,834 --> 00:54:25,042
I said, "Well, go
and check him out."
1188
00:54:25,125 --> 00:54:27,250
So he puts a mask,
he goes in,
1189
00:54:27,334 --> 00:54:29,250
he checks his vitals,
and he comes back.
1190
00:54:29,334 --> 00:54:31,000
And he was basically like,
1191
00:54:31,083 --> 00:54:33,375
"Pfah!
There's nothing going on.
1192
00:54:33,459 --> 00:54:34,417
He's fine."
1193
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:36,542
As if we're making
that thing up.
1194
00:54:39,918 --> 00:54:42,000
Gibney: And it was
temperature manipulation--
1195
00:54:42,083 --> 00:54:44,125
Well, I saw
that temperature.
1196
00:54:44,209 --> 00:54:46,083
I saw the temperature
manipulation thing,
1197
00:54:46,167 --> 00:54:48,542
but I don't recall--
I don't actually re--
1198
00:54:48,626 --> 00:54:51,125
And I have no reason
to hide it. I--
1199
00:54:51,209 --> 00:54:53,083
because I don't,
you know what I mean?
1200
00:54:53,167 --> 00:54:55,500
But I don't remember
temperature manipulation.
1201
00:54:55,584 --> 00:54:56,876
I don't remember anybody
1202
00:54:56,959 --> 00:54:58,626
specifically manipulating
the temperature.
1203
00:54:58,709 --> 00:55:01,042
I don't remember that.
I've seen it in reports.
1204
00:55:01,125 --> 00:55:03,417
If it happened, it wasn't
while I was there.
1205
00:55:05,918 --> 00:55:07,834
He was nude a lot.
1206
00:55:07,918 --> 00:55:10,292
That was something that was
discussed with the physicians
1207
00:55:10,375 --> 00:55:12,334
because he had
a pretty severe leg wound,
1208
00:55:12,417 --> 00:55:14,375
and they were concerned
about infection.
1209
00:55:14,459 --> 00:55:16,584
(air conditioner rumbling)
1210
00:55:16,667 --> 00:55:18,667
I'm not saying that that's
the only reason he was nude.
1211
00:55:18,751 --> 00:55:22,542
He was nude to make him feel
vulnerable and uncomfortable.
1212
00:55:23,959 --> 00:55:25,375
Gaudin:
Mitchell seemed to be the one
1213
00:55:25,459 --> 00:55:27,334
that everybody
had to defer to,
1214
00:55:27,417 --> 00:55:29,667
and we would actually be
given questions saying,
1215
00:55:29,751 --> 00:55:31,375
"Okay, let's theorize.
1216
00:55:31,459 --> 00:55:33,542
"If you were going to do
an attack on the United States,
1217
00:55:33,626 --> 00:55:35,000
where would you do
an attack?"
1218
00:55:35,083 --> 00:55:36,751
And Zubaydah would say
something like,
1219
00:55:36,834 --> 00:55:39,083
"Well, you know,
I would look at your
biggest landmarks,
1220
00:55:39,167 --> 00:55:40,709
"something that would
hurt you.
1221
00:55:40,792 --> 00:55:41,918
"Maybe the Brooklyn Bridge
1222
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,626
or maybe
the Statue of Liberty."
1223
00:55:43,709 --> 00:55:47,500
And then we would see on CNN
later that day or the next day,
1224
00:55:47,584 --> 00:55:48,918
the Statue of Liberty
is closed.
1225
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,334
Brooklyn Bridge just closed.
1226
00:55:51,417 --> 00:55:53,125
My God.
(chuckles)
1227
00:55:53,209 --> 00:55:54,751
It was, it was nuts.
1228
00:55:56,334 --> 00:55:58,792
Soufan: Shows you what kind
of an operative he was, right?
1229
00:55:58,876 --> 00:56:00,626
He kinda figured out
what's going on.
1230
00:56:00,709 --> 00:56:03,500
But the cornerstone
of an interrogation is
1231
00:56:03,584 --> 00:56:06,667
what that suspect understands
1232
00:56:06,751 --> 00:56:08,709
the evidence
against them to be.
1233
00:56:09,584 --> 00:56:11,042
So, for example, we had
1234
00:56:11,125 --> 00:56:14,000
three taped calls
from Abu Zubaydah.
1235
00:56:14,083 --> 00:56:16,083
But having
Abu Zubaydah think
1236
00:56:16,167 --> 00:56:18,459
we only have
three conversation
1237
00:56:18,542 --> 00:56:19,709
does not work.
1238
00:56:19,792 --> 00:56:22,500
He's going to have
a different impression
1239
00:56:22,584 --> 00:56:25,667
of the information
that we have against him.
1240
00:56:25,751 --> 00:56:29,083
So we bought a few dozen
empty audiotapes,
1241
00:56:29,167 --> 00:56:31,459
painstakingly marked
all these tapes
1242
00:56:31,542 --> 00:56:34,334
and planned
the interrogation
1243
00:56:34,417 --> 00:56:36,918
so that every time he is trying
to lie about something,
1244
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,500
we turned the conversation
into a tape
1245
00:56:39,584 --> 00:56:41,584
that we already have.
1246
00:56:41,667 --> 00:56:43,334
And by luck,
on one tape,
1247
00:56:43,417 --> 00:56:46,417
Abu Zubaydah forgot
to hang up.
1248
00:56:46,500 --> 00:56:48,834
So you can hear what's going on
in the background.
1249
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:53,751
So Abu Zubaydah thought
that all these tapes
1250
00:56:53,834 --> 00:56:56,000
are not only phone calls.
1251
00:56:56,083 --> 00:56:58,626
He thought we had
a wire in his house.
1252
00:56:58,709 --> 00:57:02,792
So we changed his impression
of what we have on him.
1253
00:57:02,876 --> 00:57:03,834
And he starts talking.
1254
00:57:03,918 --> 00:57:07,500
(men singing
in foreign language)
1255
00:57:12,667 --> 00:57:16,125
Soufan:
After the "USS Cole,"
the Taliban shut down
1256
00:57:16,209 --> 00:57:19,000
all the Arab training camps
in Afghanistan.
1257
00:57:19,083 --> 00:57:21,083
So when Khalden
was shut down,
1258
00:57:21,167 --> 00:57:22,792
Abu Zubaydah doesn't have
a job anymore
1259
00:57:22,876 --> 00:57:24,375
to bring people
to Khalden.
1260
00:57:24,459 --> 00:57:26,459
So he came to Afghanistan.
1261
00:57:26,542 --> 00:57:28,626
And this is actually
the first time
1262
00:57:28,709 --> 00:57:30,584
that he met
Osama Bin Laden.
1263
00:57:34,042 --> 00:57:35,626
And when he arrived,
they said,
1264
00:57:35,709 --> 00:57:39,083
"Oh, so this is Abu Zubaydah
that we hear about."
1265
00:57:39,167 --> 00:57:42,167
He became very well known
in the jihadi networks.
1266
00:57:42,250 --> 00:57:44,584
He gets the money,
he gets the operatives.
1267
00:57:44,667 --> 00:57:46,542
He can smuggle people
left and right.
1268
00:57:46,626 --> 00:57:49,500
Anything you need,
Abu Zubaydah can get it.
1269
00:57:49,584 --> 00:57:51,876
So they gave him
protection in Kandahar,
1270
00:57:51,959 --> 00:57:54,834
and he was working with them
and he was trusted.
1271
00:57:56,125 --> 00:57:57,876
And then 9/11 happened,
1272
00:57:57,959 --> 00:58:01,792
and Abu Zubaydah decided
to also capitalize.
1273
00:58:01,876 --> 00:58:05,334
(speaking in foreign language)
1274
00:58:19,500 --> 00:58:22,042
Soufan: He wanted
to put a video out,
1275
00:58:22,125 --> 00:58:24,918
sell it
to Western media...
1276
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,250
(speaking in foreign language)
1277
00:58:28,334 --> 00:58:30,417
Soufan: ...saying that
all the Arab Mujahideen
1278
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:31,751
now are under Bin Laden.
1279
00:58:31,834 --> 00:58:33,417
He is their emir
in the fight
1280
00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:36,000
against the United States
and so forth,
1281
00:58:36,083 --> 00:58:38,584
and he wanted to do
different operations.
1282
00:58:40,334 --> 00:58:43,500
Mitchell:
They got intelligence
that Abu Zubaydah had sent
1283
00:58:43,584 --> 00:58:47,542
an American citizen
named Jose Padilla
1284
00:58:47,626 --> 00:58:48,709
to KSM
1285
00:58:48,792 --> 00:58:51,375
so that he could send him
to the United States
1286
00:58:51,459 --> 00:58:54,542
to join "the others
already on the ground"
1287
00:58:54,626 --> 00:58:57,542
and do possibly
a dirty bomb
1288
00:58:57,626 --> 00:59:00,500
or if not that,
some other kind of an attack.
1289
00:59:00,584 --> 00:59:03,709
And actually,
it was not, uh...
1290
00:59:05,125 --> 00:59:08,834
it was not
the Muslim FBI agent
1291
00:59:08,918 --> 00:59:10,959
that got the information
about Jose--
1292
00:59:11,042 --> 00:59:12,459
Gibney:
You mean Ali Soufan?
1293
00:59:12,542 --> 00:59:13,959
It was not Soufan,
it was the other one
1294
00:59:14,042 --> 00:59:15,125
whose name
I can't give you,
1295
00:59:15,209 --> 00:59:17,792
uh, because
it's still protected
1296
00:59:17,876 --> 00:59:20,459
by the government,
regardless of what's known
1297
00:59:20,542 --> 00:59:21,959
in the press, right?
1298
00:59:22,042 --> 00:59:25,584
So, uh, what happened
that night was
1299
00:59:25,667 --> 00:59:27,167
they had been, uh...
1300
00:59:27,250 --> 00:59:28,667
Gibney:
This was a strange moment
1301
00:59:28,751 --> 00:59:29,959
in the interview.
1302
00:59:30,042 --> 00:59:32,500
Mitchell felt he needed
to throw shade on Soufan,
1303
00:59:32,584 --> 00:59:34,834
whom he called
"the Muslim agent."
1304
00:59:34,918 --> 00:59:38,542
But he also acknowledged
that the FBI, not the CIA,
1305
00:59:38,626 --> 00:59:41,626
obtained critical information
about Jose Padilla.
1306
00:59:43,167 --> 00:59:46,125
Later on, the CIA would try
to rewrite the story
1307
00:59:46,209 --> 00:59:48,876
and claim EITs
caused Abu Zubaydah
1308
00:59:48,959 --> 00:59:51,375
to spill
the beans about Padilla.
1309
00:59:51,459 --> 00:59:53,500
That claim was false.
1310
00:59:53,584 --> 00:59:56,209
Soufan:
Padilla was arrested
1311
00:59:56,292 --> 00:59:58,959
because of smart police work.
1312
00:59:59,042 --> 01:00:00,834
We got some information
from Abu Zubaydah
1313
01:00:00,918 --> 01:00:02,500
about two individuals.
1314
01:00:02,584 --> 01:00:04,709
Put it in a cable
1315
01:00:04,792 --> 01:00:06,542
and some smart
intelligence officer
1316
01:00:06,626 --> 01:00:08,000
in Pakistan looked at it
and was like,
1317
01:00:08,083 --> 01:00:10,125
"Wait a second,
I just saw the passports
1318
01:00:10,209 --> 01:00:11,292
"of these two guys.
1319
01:00:11,375 --> 01:00:14,584
It seems they fit
the description."
1320
01:00:14,667 --> 01:00:15,792
Someone was able to say,
1321
01:00:15,876 --> 01:00:17,292
"You know what?
There were these two guys,
1322
01:00:17,375 --> 01:00:18,667
"there was an American
and British guy,
1323
01:00:18,751 --> 01:00:21,125
and the American was here
to get a new passport."
1324
01:00:21,209 --> 01:00:24,125
They just pulled on the thread
until they figured,
1325
01:00:24,209 --> 01:00:27,125
okay, is this the guy?
1326
01:00:27,209 --> 01:00:29,167
Gibney:
My understanding is that
Abu Zubaydah
1327
01:00:29,250 --> 01:00:31,542
had actually identified
the photo of Padilla.
1328
01:00:31,626 --> 01:00:35,042
And I think Padilla
was arrested in May 2002.
1329
01:00:35,125 --> 01:00:37,918
Well, he didn't identify
a picture of Padilla.
1330
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,542
Your understanding
is incorrect.
1331
01:00:39,626 --> 01:00:41,000
-He mentions--
-Gibney: You're absolutely sure?
1332
01:00:41,083 --> 01:00:43,876
-I was there.
-Gibney: Uh-huh.
1333
01:00:43,959 --> 01:00:46,250
I was there...
1334
01:00:46,334 --> 01:00:48,918
for all of those interrogations
and watched all of them.
1335
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,375
So, yeah,
I'm absolutely sure.
1336
01:00:51,459 --> 01:00:54,000
Gibney:
Actually, according to
declassified cables,
1337
01:00:54,083 --> 01:00:56,667
Abu Zubaydah
did identify Padilla's photo.
1338
01:00:56,751 --> 01:00:58,792
Zubaydah also revealed
1339
01:00:58,876 --> 01:01:01,500
that Padilla was not
the terrorist mastermind
1340
01:01:01,584 --> 01:01:03,417
the CIA imagined him to be.
1341
01:01:03,500 --> 01:01:06,250
Soufan: They wanted to go
to the United States,
1342
01:01:06,334 --> 01:01:08,000
hijack a uranium truck,
1343
01:01:08,083 --> 01:01:11,125
steal the uranium,
and build a dirty bomb.
1344
01:01:11,209 --> 01:01:13,918
And Abu Zubaydah said, "So how
do you enrich the uranium?"
1345
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,375
And literally, they told him,
"We put it in a bucket
1346
01:01:16,459 --> 01:01:18,542
"and we turn
the bucket very fast,
1347
01:01:18,626 --> 01:01:20,500
and then that's how
it will be enriched."
1348
01:01:20,584 --> 01:01:23,375
And he was just like,
"Yeah, that does not work."
1349
01:01:23,459 --> 01:01:25,292
Zubaydah was like,
"Yeah, yeah, yeah,
1350
01:01:25,375 --> 01:01:26,918
that's exactly
what we should do."
1351
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:28,000
But he was placating them.
1352
01:01:28,083 --> 01:01:30,125
I don't need this guy
to make a bomb.
1353
01:01:30,209 --> 01:01:33,000
I need this guy because
he has an American passport.
1354
01:01:33,083 --> 01:01:35,209
He knew the value
that it could have
1355
01:01:35,292 --> 01:01:38,417
to people that were actually
planning real operations.
1356
01:01:39,542 --> 01:01:42,209
Soufan: He called KSM
and he told him,
1357
01:01:42,292 --> 01:01:45,584
"I'm sending you these two
operatives, see what they have.
1358
01:01:45,667 --> 01:01:48,542
If you can use them in
an operation, they are yours."
1359
01:01:48,626 --> 01:01:51,834
Gibney:
KSM did send Jose Padilla
to the United States
1360
01:01:51,918 --> 01:01:55,667
allegedly to blow up a series
of apartment buildings.
1361
01:01:55,751 --> 01:01:58,125
He was arrested
in Chicago on May 8th,
1362
01:01:58,209 --> 01:02:01,209
just 15 days after
Abu Zubaydah identified him.
1363
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,250
Despite Abu Zubaydah's
cooperation,
1364
01:02:07,334 --> 01:02:08,834
the CIA and Mitchell
1365
01:02:08,918 --> 01:02:12,042
kept pushing
to turn up the heat.
1366
01:02:12,125 --> 01:02:15,209
Soufan: Even when we
were allowed back in
under our condition,
1367
01:02:15,292 --> 01:02:16,709
they still
were playing games.
1368
01:02:16,792 --> 01:02:20,959
One day I walked in and
I saw a big coffin in the room.
1369
01:02:21,042 --> 01:02:22,417
I actually went in it.
1370
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:24,500
I'm telling you,
it's not a good feeling.
1371
01:02:26,292 --> 01:02:27,542
You try to be professional.
1372
01:02:27,626 --> 01:02:30,334
You try to focus
on the mission.
1373
01:02:30,417 --> 01:02:33,417
But unfortunately, you know,
every day you bring him back,
1374
01:02:33,500 --> 01:02:36,000
and then they try
to play that game again.
1375
01:02:37,584 --> 01:02:40,125
And at this point,
everything that I was seeing
1376
01:02:40,209 --> 01:02:43,042
was kind of like
borderline torture.
1377
01:02:43,125 --> 01:02:45,459
But now we're even
crossing that line.
1378
01:02:48,042 --> 01:02:50,751
So I called
FBI headquarters.
1379
01:02:50,834 --> 01:02:53,125
I asked to speak
with my boss in New York.
1380
01:02:53,209 --> 01:02:55,000
I said, "Please,
I-I need to leave.
1381
01:02:55,083 --> 01:02:56,250
"I-I cannot stay here.
1382
01:02:56,334 --> 01:02:58,459
"If I stay here, I...
1383
01:02:58,542 --> 01:03:00,584
"I will probably
arrest that guy.
1384
01:03:00,667 --> 01:03:02,876
I mean, this is crazy."
1385
01:03:02,959 --> 01:03:06,751
So he said, "Okay,
I need you to leave
the location immediately."
1386
01:03:08,375 --> 01:03:12,167
And that was the end
of my involvement
in the black site.
1387
01:03:14,042 --> 01:03:16,542
Gibney: Soufan and
the CIA polygrapher returned
1388
01:03:16,626 --> 01:03:18,292
to the United States.
1389
01:03:18,375 --> 01:03:21,125
Mysteriously, the entire
interrogation team
1390
01:03:21,209 --> 01:03:22,500
soon followed.
1391
01:03:22,584 --> 01:03:24,959
All the questions
and answers stopped.
1392
01:03:25,042 --> 01:03:27,209
Abu Zubaydah was left alone
in his cell
1393
01:03:27,292 --> 01:03:31,083
where the only sound
was the hiss of
a white noise machine.
1394
01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:37,292
These are more than 100 pages
of interrogation notes
1395
01:03:37,375 --> 01:03:38,667
from Ali Soufan.
1396
01:03:38,751 --> 01:03:41,584
Though heavily redacted,
we can see they contain details
1397
01:03:41,667 --> 01:03:44,209
about future plots
and portraits of the people
1398
01:03:44,292 --> 01:03:47,000
in and around Al-Qaeda,
how they worked,
1399
01:03:47,083 --> 01:03:48,542
and what they were planning.
1400
01:03:48,626 --> 01:03:50,375
To the FBI,
it was a treasure trove
1401
01:03:50,459 --> 01:03:51,542
of evidence and proof
1402
01:03:51,626 --> 01:03:53,500
that Abu Zubaydah
was cooperating.
1403
01:03:53,584 --> 01:03:55,375
The CIA saw it differently.
1404
01:03:55,459 --> 01:03:56,959
Analysts in Washington
were certain
1405
01:03:57,042 --> 01:03:59,876
he was holding back
because he wasn't telling them
1406
01:03:59,959 --> 01:04:01,375
what they wanted to hear.
1407
01:04:01,459 --> 01:04:03,626
It was time to take
the gloves off.
1408
01:04:05,042 --> 01:04:07,167
Wilkerson:
We've tortured before.
1409
01:04:07,250 --> 01:04:09,834
We tortured
in the Philippines.
1410
01:04:09,918 --> 01:04:11,584
We tortured in Vietnam.
1411
01:04:13,709 --> 01:04:16,334
We are one of
the most violent people
1412
01:04:16,417 --> 01:04:18,083
on the face of the Earth.
1413
01:04:19,667 --> 01:04:24,250
To deny that is
to deny reality.
1414
01:04:24,334 --> 01:04:27,834
But we were the leaders
of the effort
1415
01:04:27,918 --> 01:04:30,042
to push through
the United Nations
1416
01:04:30,125 --> 01:04:31,876
the Convention against Torture
1417
01:04:31,959 --> 01:04:34,042
and Cruel
and Unusual Punishment.
1418
01:04:34,125 --> 01:04:36,209
We were the leaders
1419
01:04:36,292 --> 01:04:38,584
in getting
that phrase in there
1420
01:04:38,667 --> 01:04:40,250
that essentially says,
1421
01:04:40,334 --> 01:04:43,959
"No in extremis
national security conditions
1422
01:04:44,042 --> 01:04:46,834
warrant going beyond this."
1423
01:04:46,918 --> 01:04:49,834
After 9/11, we obviated
the whole thing.
1424
01:04:49,918 --> 01:04:52,834
We said, because of
national security concerns,
1425
01:04:52,918 --> 01:04:54,375
that's out the window.
1426
01:04:54,459 --> 01:04:58,292
This was the first time
that torture as a policy
1427
01:04:58,375 --> 01:04:59,500
was authorized
1428
01:04:59,584 --> 01:05:02,000
by the highest power
in the land.
1429
01:05:02,083 --> 01:05:04,250
Gibney: President Bush
paved the way for torture
1430
01:05:04,334 --> 01:05:07,083
when he signed an order saying
that the Geneva Conventions
1431
01:05:07,167 --> 01:05:08,918
did not apply
to Al-Qaeda.
1432
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,834
That allowed George Tenet
to try something different
1433
01:05:11,918 --> 01:05:14,334
so long as Abu Zubaydah
was believed
1434
01:05:14,417 --> 01:05:16,292
to be a member
of Al-Qaeda.
1435
01:05:16,375 --> 01:05:18,792
President Bush today
has decided that Al-Qaeda
1436
01:05:18,876 --> 01:05:20,584
is an international
terrorist group
1437
01:05:20,667 --> 01:05:22,000
under the treaty.
1438
01:05:22,083 --> 01:05:24,125
Gibney: If members
of Al-Qaeda were different
1439
01:05:24,209 --> 01:05:25,667
from other prisoners of war,
1440
01:05:25,751 --> 01:05:28,083
then perhaps different
interrogation techniques
1441
01:05:28,167 --> 01:05:29,375
could be used,
1442
01:05:29,459 --> 01:05:32,209
but not so different as
to cause permanent damage,
1443
01:05:32,292 --> 01:05:34,834
which could be
evidence of torture.
1444
01:05:34,918 --> 01:05:37,334
That led the CIA
to retrofit a program
1445
01:05:37,417 --> 01:05:39,083
developed after
the Korean War,
1446
01:05:39,167 --> 01:05:41,292
in which we brutalized
our own soldiers
1447
01:05:41,375 --> 01:05:44,834
to prepare them to resist
the brutality of others.
1448
01:05:44,918 --> 01:05:48,918
If we did it to ourselves,
how bad could it be?
1449
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,125
Col. Steven Kleinman:
When I started, I was
a human intelligence officer,
1450
01:05:52,209 --> 01:05:53,584
but then I had
an opportunity
1451
01:05:53,667 --> 01:05:55,209
to go on the other side
of the table
1452
01:05:55,292 --> 01:05:57,083
and work
in resistance training.
1453
01:05:57,167 --> 01:05:59,709
The CIA Enhanced
Interrogation Program
1454
01:05:59,792 --> 01:06:01,959
is the product
of the government's fear
1455
01:06:02,042 --> 01:06:04,209
of what they saw happen
during the Korean War.
1456
01:06:04,292 --> 01:06:05,667
Especially
the Chinese interrogators
1457
01:06:05,751 --> 01:06:07,834
were masterful
in their ability to manipulate.
1458
01:06:07,918 --> 01:06:10,167
They knew how to get people
to say things
1459
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:12,417
that they didn't want to say,
and the CIA would say,
1460
01:06:12,500 --> 01:06:16,042
"Wow, if they can do that,
what else can they do?"
1461
01:06:16,125 --> 01:06:19,959
Allow me to introduce
our American visitors.
1462
01:06:20,042 --> 01:06:21,209
I must ask you to forgive
1463
01:06:21,292 --> 01:06:23,459
their somewhat
lackadaisical manners,
1464
01:06:23,542 --> 01:06:26,459
but I have conditioned them
or "brainwashed" them,
1465
01:06:26,542 --> 01:06:29,250
which I understand is
the new American word.
1466
01:06:29,334 --> 01:06:30,959
Take this scarf.
1467
01:06:34,042 --> 01:06:36,000
And strangle Ed Mavole.
1468
01:06:40,417 --> 01:06:42,250
-Hey, Sarge. Cut it out. What--
-Tut-tut-tut-tut.
1469
01:06:42,334 --> 01:06:44,083
Quiet, Ed, please.
1470
01:06:44,167 --> 01:06:46,000
Now you just
sit there quietly
1471
01:06:46,083 --> 01:06:47,751
and cooperate.
1472
01:06:48,500 --> 01:06:49,751
Yes, ma'am.
1473
01:06:52,167 --> 01:06:54,459
(choking)
1474
01:06:56,250 --> 01:06:58,542
Gibney:
The popular fear
of brainwashing,
1475
01:06:58,626 --> 01:07:01,209
making prisoners do
or say anything,
1476
01:07:01,292 --> 01:07:02,876
led every branch
of the military
1477
01:07:02,959 --> 01:07:04,918
to create schools
for soldiers
1478
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:06,250
to learn how to survive,
1479
01:07:06,334 --> 01:07:08,709
evade capture,
resist interrogation
1480
01:07:08,792 --> 01:07:11,334
and, if possible, escape.
1481
01:07:11,417 --> 01:07:13,834
The so-called SERE School
for the Air Force
1482
01:07:13,918 --> 01:07:15,209
near Spokane, Washington,
1483
01:07:15,292 --> 01:07:18,417
is where James Mitchell
taught resistance.
1484
01:07:18,500 --> 01:07:21,209
Mitchell: The basic course
is several weeks long,
1485
01:07:21,292 --> 01:07:22,918
and there's two parts.
1486
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,167
There's the bugs
and berries part of it
1487
01:07:25,250 --> 01:07:28,500
where, you know, they teach you
how to survive and evade.
1488
01:07:28,584 --> 01:07:30,918
And then there's
the second part of it,
1489
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,876
which is the resistance
to interrogation lab.
1490
01:07:33,959 --> 01:07:36,167
And in that,
they essentially have
1491
01:07:36,250 --> 01:07:38,667
what I would call
an undergraduate course
1492
01:07:38,751 --> 01:07:41,292
for protecting secrets.
1493
01:07:41,375 --> 01:07:43,083
Our emotions
can marshal resources
1494
01:07:43,167 --> 01:07:44,959
that we never knew
that we had available.
1495
01:07:45,042 --> 01:07:46,584
But those
very same emotions,
1496
01:07:46,667 --> 01:07:48,918
either fear or anger
or anxiety,
1497
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:51,292
can also cripple us
in survival situations.
1498
01:07:51,375 --> 01:07:53,792
Eyes on the ground!
1499
01:07:53,876 --> 01:07:56,417
Mitchell:
They expose you to a variety
1500
01:07:56,500 --> 01:07:58,584
of interrogation strategies
1501
01:07:58,667 --> 01:08:01,667
and teach you
how to resist.
1502
01:08:01,751 --> 01:08:04,417
It's a phenomenally
well-designed,
1503
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:06,667
systematic,
professional program
1504
01:08:06,751 --> 01:08:08,959
from, from beginning to end.
1505
01:08:09,042 --> 01:08:12,292
And it was Jim Mitchell
who helped develop
that program.
1506
01:08:12,375 --> 01:08:15,834
He was actually known for being
a stickler for safety,
1507
01:08:15,918 --> 01:08:17,667
because when they're performing
as interrogators,
1508
01:08:17,751 --> 01:08:20,250
they were simulating torture.
1509
01:08:20,334 --> 01:08:23,209
What we tried
to teach people is
how to be resilient
1510
01:08:23,292 --> 01:08:26,000
in the face of stress,
of coercion, even torture,
1511
01:08:26,083 --> 01:08:30,042
so that you will not
create propaganda.
1512
01:08:30,125 --> 01:08:31,626
Gaudin:
I went to SERE School.
1513
01:08:31,709 --> 01:08:34,209
SERE School
is teaching people,
1514
01:08:34,292 --> 01:08:36,542
if you get captured,
how to stay alive.
1515
01:08:36,626 --> 01:08:39,083
It's teaching people
how to resist.
1516
01:08:39,167 --> 01:08:42,250
It's not eliciting information
from people.
1517
01:08:42,334 --> 01:08:45,542
Jones: These techniques
were used in a coercive way
1518
01:08:45,626 --> 01:08:47,959
to get someone to admit
to something they didn't do,
1519
01:08:48,042 --> 01:08:49,417
to get them
to say anything.
1520
01:08:49,500 --> 01:08:51,125
It was never devised
1521
01:08:51,209 --> 01:08:52,834
even by the worst regimes,
1522
01:08:52,918 --> 01:08:55,250
as a means to obtain
accurate intelligence.
1523
01:08:55,334 --> 01:08:57,292
And that was
Jim's experience.
1524
01:08:57,375 --> 01:08:59,876
He was observing
our US service members
1525
01:08:59,959 --> 01:09:02,083
being exposed to some
of these techniques
1526
01:09:02,167 --> 01:09:03,667
during training.
1527
01:09:03,751 --> 01:09:05,500
Gibney: So the purpose
of the school is not
1528
01:09:05,584 --> 01:09:07,125
to teach interrogation.
1529
01:09:07,209 --> 01:09:08,918
It was to teach people
how to resist interrogation.
1530
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,042
-Is that right?
-Yeah, that's the purpose
of the...
1531
01:09:11,125 --> 01:09:12,959
That's the purpose
of the survival school,
1532
01:09:13,042 --> 01:09:14,834
is to teach people
how to resist interrogation.
1533
01:09:14,918 --> 01:09:17,417
But you know what, if you don't
understand interrogation,
1534
01:09:17,500 --> 01:09:19,500
you're not going to do
a very good job resisting it.
1535
01:09:19,584 --> 01:09:22,000
It isn't gonna happen.
1536
01:09:22,083 --> 01:09:24,667
Gibney:
The kind of interrogation
Mitchell was interested in
1537
01:09:24,751 --> 01:09:27,500
was rooted in another
psychological experiment
1538
01:09:27,584 --> 01:09:30,667
in which dogs were jolted
with electric shocks.
1539
01:09:30,751 --> 01:09:31,959
(dog whimpering)
1540
01:09:32,042 --> 01:09:33,918
The idea was to create,
in animals,
1541
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,209
a feeling called
"learned helplessness."
1542
01:09:37,292 --> 01:09:39,500
To get humans
into that state,
1543
01:09:39,584 --> 01:09:41,417
interrogators would
subject prisoners
1544
01:09:41,500 --> 01:09:44,250
to SERE techniques
until they were helpless
1545
01:09:44,334 --> 01:09:46,417
and would do
or say anything.
1546
01:09:48,125 --> 01:09:51,667
Lawyer: Why did you think
Dr. Mitchell was qualified?
1547
01:09:51,751 --> 01:09:53,918
Because of his experience
with SERE
1548
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,292
and because we needed
to do something different
1549
01:09:56,375 --> 01:09:57,709
than what had been
done before,
1550
01:09:57,792 --> 01:09:59,959
and he looked like
the right person to do it.
1551
01:10:00,042 --> 01:10:01,792
Lawyer: Why did he look like
the right person to do it?
1552
01:10:01,876 --> 01:10:04,334
Because he had
a tremendous expertise
1553
01:10:04,417 --> 01:10:06,542
and, uh...
1554
01:10:06,626 --> 01:10:09,876
he, uh, had
a good vision
1555
01:10:09,959 --> 01:10:11,709
for what needed
to be done.
1556
01:10:11,792 --> 01:10:13,125
Lawyer:
Okay.
1557
01:10:14,876 --> 01:10:17,626
What did he have
tremendous expertise in?
1558
01:10:18,209 --> 01:10:20,209
In SERE.
1559
01:10:20,292 --> 01:10:22,542
Lawyer: What was his,
uh, SERE experience,
1560
01:10:22,626 --> 01:10:23,792
to your knowledge in,
at that time?
1561
01:10:23,876 --> 01:10:25,918
He had spent
many years, uh,
1562
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,626
with the Air Force,
uh, working on SERE.
1563
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:30,083
Lawyer: Okay.
Did he have...
1564
01:10:30,167 --> 01:10:33,709
was there any other source
of his tremendous expertise?
1565
01:10:33,792 --> 01:10:37,167
Uh, the expertise I was
interested in was SERE.
1566
01:10:42,042 --> 01:10:43,667
Mitchell:
Once the CIA concluded
1567
01:10:43,751 --> 01:10:46,083
that he was
withholding information,
1568
01:10:46,167 --> 01:10:49,209
they pulled everybody back
in the early summer,
1569
01:10:49,292 --> 01:10:51,083
and it was clear to me
1570
01:10:51,167 --> 01:10:53,292
in the conversations that
were going around the table
1571
01:10:53,375 --> 01:10:55,292
that they had decided
they were going to use
1572
01:10:55,375 --> 01:10:58,000
physical coercion
against Abu Zubaydah.
1573
01:10:58,083 --> 01:10:59,250
And I thought...
1574
01:11:00,375 --> 01:11:01,834
well, if you're gonna use it,
1575
01:11:01,918 --> 01:11:03,167
then you ought
to use something--
1576
01:11:03,250 --> 01:11:04,542
not that you should use it
1577
01:11:04,626 --> 01:11:06,167
or even that
it was desirable
1578
01:11:06,250 --> 01:11:07,542
or even that it was legal.
1579
01:11:07,626 --> 01:11:09,000
But if you're going
to do that,
1580
01:11:09,083 --> 01:11:10,626
then you ought to consider
using the things
1581
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:12,334
that they've been using
at the SERE schools
1582
01:11:12,417 --> 01:11:14,626
because they don't produce
a lot of lasting injuries.
1583
01:11:14,709 --> 01:11:17,375
They don't produce injuries.
1584
01:11:17,459 --> 01:11:20,918
So I gave them
a list of techniques
that they could consider.
1585
01:11:26,292 --> 01:11:29,083
Once they decided
they were going
to go forward with it,
1586
01:11:29,167 --> 01:11:30,751
they began to, I guess...
1587
01:11:30,834 --> 01:11:32,250
I mean, we've got
all of the documents
1588
01:11:32,334 --> 01:11:35,042
released from the CIA,
so it's perfectly...
1589
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:36,167
We can trace it,
1590
01:11:36,250 --> 01:11:38,042
you don't have to depend
on my memory.
1591
01:11:38,125 --> 01:11:40,167
Interviewer: I'm just
trying to reconcile too,
1592
01:11:40,250 --> 01:11:42,375
because we interviewed
James Mitchell,
1593
01:11:42,459 --> 01:11:45,375
and he puts the timeline
more towards June, July
1594
01:11:45,459 --> 01:11:47,500
that he proposes
the EIT program.
1595
01:11:47,584 --> 01:11:49,083
So, I'm just trying
to figure out, I'm just trying--
1596
01:11:49,167 --> 01:11:51,584
Well, that's not--
Yeah, that's not correct.
1597
01:11:51,667 --> 01:11:54,626
I mean, uh,
by June and July,
1598
01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:56,918
I was heavy
into discussions with the,
1599
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,334
with the, uh,
Justice Department.
1600
01:11:59,417 --> 01:12:01,834
All I can tell you was
1601
01:12:01,918 --> 01:12:04,626
I was first told
about this idea
1602
01:12:04,709 --> 01:12:06,542
of Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques
1603
01:12:06,626 --> 01:12:10,459
in... sometime
in early to mid April.
1604
01:12:12,083 --> 01:12:14,334
Gibney: When exactly were
the techniques invented?
1605
01:12:14,417 --> 01:12:17,042
The answer is the difference
between a wink and a nod
1606
01:12:17,125 --> 01:12:18,584
and a written plan.
1607
01:12:18,667 --> 01:12:20,751
In April and May,
Mitchell was experimenting
1608
01:12:20,834 --> 01:12:23,000
with SERE techniques
for which he had
1609
01:12:23,083 --> 01:12:25,250
no official legal approval.
1610
01:12:25,334 --> 01:12:26,959
To go further,
the techniques would have
1611
01:12:27,042 --> 01:12:29,500
to be codified
and approved in writing.
1612
01:12:29,584 --> 01:12:32,042
Rizzo: There was a team
that came up to my office
1613
01:12:32,125 --> 01:12:34,042
one afternoon,
you know, unannounced.
1614
01:12:34,125 --> 01:12:35,709
I mean,
I had no preview.
1615
01:12:35,792 --> 01:12:39,042
I was just told it was
a matter of some urgency
1616
01:12:39,125 --> 01:12:42,209
about an operational proposal.
That's all I knew.
1617
01:12:42,292 --> 01:12:44,000
And I was gobsmacked.
1618
01:12:45,459 --> 01:12:48,292
My very first reaction was,
you guys are crazy.
1619
01:12:48,375 --> 01:12:49,918
This is, we shouldn't
be doing this.
1620
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,709
We've never done
this kind of thing before.
1621
01:12:52,792 --> 01:12:55,751
But I remember walking
around the CIA compound,
1622
01:12:55,834 --> 01:12:58,042
smoking a cigar,
trying to absorb
1623
01:12:58,125 --> 01:12:59,375
what I'd just been told.
1624
01:12:59,459 --> 01:13:01,959
And I started to play out
the scenarios in my head,
1625
01:13:02,042 --> 01:13:03,209
that, okay,
1626
01:13:03,292 --> 01:13:04,667
I go in to
the CIA director.
1627
01:13:04,751 --> 01:13:06,417
I say,
"We shouldn't do this.
1628
01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:07,918
"This is barbaric.
1629
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,167
It may
or may not be legal."
1630
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:14,042
And on the other hand,
I thought, well, here
are all the experts.
1631
01:13:14,125 --> 01:13:18,000
Saying that, that these kinds
of aggressive measures
1632
01:13:18,083 --> 01:13:19,667
are the only ones
1633
01:13:19,751 --> 01:13:21,584
that we believe
1634
01:13:21,667 --> 01:13:23,876
will cause Abu Zubaydah
1635
01:13:23,959 --> 01:13:25,250
to tell us completely
1636
01:13:25,334 --> 01:13:27,584
what he knows about
another terrorist attack.
1637
01:13:29,500 --> 01:13:31,417
And the idea
of the consequences
1638
01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:34,751
was something I couldn't
countenance on myself.
1639
01:13:34,834 --> 01:13:36,542
So that led
to a couple meetings
1640
01:13:36,626 --> 01:13:37,834
in George Tenet's office
1641
01:13:37,918 --> 01:13:40,292
with the senior
CIA leadership.
1642
01:13:42,125 --> 01:13:45,667
Lawyer: So did you propose
any other list
1643
01:13:45,751 --> 01:13:47,083
other than this list
1644
01:13:47,167 --> 01:13:49,667
-to Mr. Rizzo
or to the department?
-No.
1645
01:13:49,751 --> 01:13:51,834
Lawyer: So you never proposed
any other list
1646
01:13:51,918 --> 01:13:53,584
-other than this list
to Mr. Rizzo?
-No.
1647
01:13:53,667 --> 01:13:55,500
Lawyer: Did you propose
any other list
1648
01:13:55,584 --> 01:13:57,709
other than this list
to the Department of Justice?
1649
01:13:57,792 --> 01:13:58,918
No.
1650
01:14:02,250 --> 01:14:04,042
Mitchell: They began
to work back and forth
1651
01:14:04,125 --> 01:14:06,459
with the Justice Department,
but they needed approval
1652
01:14:06,542 --> 01:14:08,083
from Tenet to go forward.
1653
01:14:08,167 --> 01:14:10,918
And so I met
with Tenet, Rizzo.
1654
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,292
Jose Rodriguez
took me up there,
1655
01:14:13,375 --> 01:14:15,542
and there were several
other people in the room.
1656
01:14:15,626 --> 01:14:19,375
He asked me to describe
the techniques,
and I described them.
1657
01:14:19,459 --> 01:14:22,042
Rizzo: They went through
each of these techniques.
1658
01:14:22,125 --> 01:14:24,125
Mitchell:
Attention grasps,
1659
01:14:24,209 --> 01:14:25,125
walling.
1660
01:14:25,209 --> 01:14:28,042
Sort of a shock and awe
technique.
1661
01:14:28,125 --> 01:14:32,334
Mitchell: Facial slaps,
a couple of stress positions...
1662
01:14:32,417 --> 01:14:34,709
Rizzo:
Extended sleep deprivation
1663
01:14:34,792 --> 01:14:36,000
for days.
1664
01:14:36,083 --> 01:14:37,584
And the most
controversial one was,
1665
01:14:37,667 --> 01:14:39,626
of course, waterboarding.
1666
01:14:39,709 --> 01:14:41,626
Rizzo: I'd never heard
of waterboarding.
1667
01:14:41,709 --> 01:14:43,334
I didn't even know
what the term meant.
1668
01:14:43,417 --> 01:14:46,209
Simulated drowning is the way
it was described to me.
1669
01:14:49,626 --> 01:14:53,000
And there was another one
that called for a mock burial.
1670
01:14:53,083 --> 01:14:55,751
It sounded something
out of Edgar Allan Poe.
1671
01:14:55,834 --> 01:14:57,000
I think it was.
1672
01:14:58,584 --> 01:15:00,792
Mitchell:
So Tenet gets up
to get a cigar.
1673
01:15:00,876 --> 01:15:02,083
He didn't smoke
in the building,
1674
01:15:02,167 --> 01:15:04,375
but he had a cigar
quite frequently.
1675
01:15:05,292 --> 01:15:06,584
He motions with his head
1676
01:15:06,667 --> 01:15:08,876
for Rizzo to walk
over there with him,
1677
01:15:08,959 --> 01:15:11,417
and he leans forward
and he says in a way
1678
01:15:11,500 --> 01:15:13,500
that I don't think
I'm supposed to hear.
1679
01:15:13,584 --> 01:15:16,709
"Make sure this is legal
before we go forward
with this."
1680
01:15:18,250 --> 01:15:19,876
Rizzo:
So that's when I decided
1681
01:15:19,959 --> 01:15:22,334
to seek
definitive legal guidance
1682
01:15:22,417 --> 01:15:23,834
from the Department
of Justice
1683
01:15:23,918 --> 01:15:25,584
as to whether any or all
1684
01:15:25,667 --> 01:15:27,751
of these techniques
were legal
1685
01:15:27,834 --> 01:15:30,459
and if any crossed
the line into torture.
1686
01:15:31,834 --> 01:15:33,542
Gibney: While the lawyers
in Washington worked
1687
01:15:33,626 --> 01:15:36,042
to make sure that
no one would be prosecuted
1688
01:15:36,125 --> 01:15:38,584
for using Mitchell's techniques
on Abu Zubaydah,
1689
01:15:38,667 --> 01:15:42,834
the prisoner himself
remained in Thailand, alone.
1690
01:15:57,125 --> 01:16:00,125
(birds chirping)
1691
01:16:20,417 --> 01:16:23,626
Soufan:
When all intelligence stopped
coming from Abu Zubaydah,
1692
01:16:23,709 --> 01:16:26,083
Mueller asked Tenet
1693
01:16:26,167 --> 01:16:28,918
why the intelligence stopped
from Abu Zubaydah,
1694
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:30,584
what happened
with Abu Zubaydah.
1695
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:34,167
And Tenet's response
to him was,
1696
01:16:34,250 --> 01:16:36,667
"Your guys
really messed him up.
1697
01:16:36,751 --> 01:16:39,667
So we're, we're trying
to fix him."
1698
01:16:41,042 --> 01:16:45,000
This was shocking to me,
because if you are trying
1699
01:16:45,083 --> 01:16:48,459
to get EITs approved,
1700
01:16:48,542 --> 01:16:50,792
even though you were
doing it before,
1701
01:16:50,876 --> 01:16:53,918
if you're trying
to get EITs approved...
1702
01:16:55,459 --> 01:16:58,751
because of the
ticking bomb scenario, right,
1703
01:16:58,834 --> 01:17:03,292
you don't leave a guy
with nobody interrogating him.
1704
01:17:03,375 --> 01:17:05,876
Mitchell: There's a difference
between a ticking time bomb
1705
01:17:05,959 --> 01:17:08,292
and a looming time bomb.
1706
01:17:08,375 --> 01:17:10,792
At some point,
we realized
1707
01:17:10,876 --> 01:17:13,042
that it was
a looming time bomb,
1708
01:17:13,125 --> 01:17:14,542
not a ticking time bomb.
1709
01:17:14,626 --> 01:17:17,167
Uh, and, um...
1710
01:17:20,167 --> 01:17:22,375
So that's-- Of course,
we didn't know it at that time.
1711
01:17:22,459 --> 01:17:25,042
You'd have to ask the CIA
why they had that long.
1712
01:17:25,125 --> 01:17:26,792
I didn't, you know,
I wasn't in charge.
1713
01:17:26,876 --> 01:17:29,709
I didn't do it.
I'm not making light of it.
It was a long time.
1714
01:17:29,792 --> 01:17:31,250
Lawyer 2: Do you know
whether Abu Zubaydah
1715
01:17:31,334 --> 01:17:34,167
was asked any questions
during the isolation phase?
1716
01:17:35,083 --> 01:17:36,334
Did I know?
1717
01:17:36,417 --> 01:17:38,167
-Lawyer 2: Do you know now?
-Do I know now?
1718
01:17:38,250 --> 01:17:39,751
Uh, I've come--
1719
01:17:39,834 --> 01:17:41,959
yeah, I've come to learn that
there was a period of time
1720
01:17:42,042 --> 01:17:43,792
where he was
not asked questions.
1721
01:17:43,876 --> 01:17:46,459
Lawyer 2: And at the time,
did you know that?
1722
01:17:46,542 --> 01:17:48,667
At, at the very beginning,
1723
01:17:48,751 --> 01:17:51,042
as the techniques
were being described to me?
1724
01:17:51,125 --> 01:17:54,417
-At that point in time?
-Lawyer 2: At the time
when you were seeking
1725
01:17:54,500 --> 01:17:57,292
the Department
of Justice's opinion
1726
01:17:57,375 --> 01:17:58,626
on the techniques?
1727
01:17:58,709 --> 01:18:00,375
No, I don't believe so.
1728
01:18:11,417 --> 01:18:15,334
Jones: The CIA is tasked
with stopping the next attack.
1729
01:18:15,417 --> 01:18:18,042
Abu Zubaydah has been
providing intelligence
1730
01:18:18,125 --> 01:18:19,584
up until this point.
1731
01:18:19,667 --> 01:18:21,083
And yet they leave him,
1732
01:18:21,167 --> 01:18:23,709
the only
high-value detainee,
1733
01:18:23,792 --> 01:18:25,792
alone without any contact.
1734
01:18:27,542 --> 01:18:31,542
During that period,
there are analysts still
sending in requirements.
1735
01:18:31,626 --> 01:18:32,876
One analyst says,
1736
01:18:32,959 --> 01:18:34,959
"I want to learn more
about an individual
1737
01:18:35,042 --> 01:18:36,918
"who is in
Abu Zubaydah's address book.
1738
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:39,792
Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti."
1739
01:18:39,876 --> 01:18:41,459
Of course,
nobody is around
1740
01:18:41,542 --> 01:18:43,292
to ask about
Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti.
1741
01:18:43,375 --> 01:18:44,292
(helicopter blades whirring)
1742
01:18:44,375 --> 01:18:46,125
(indistinct radio conversation)
1743
01:18:46,209 --> 01:18:47,751
Nearly a decade later,
1744
01:18:47,834 --> 01:18:50,459
we finally obtained
Bin Laden's location,
1745
01:18:50,542 --> 01:18:54,125
and it's through a man
named Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti.
1746
01:18:54,209 --> 01:18:55,959
So this lost opportunity
1747
01:18:56,042 --> 01:18:59,751
to ask Abu Zubaydah
in July of 2002,
1748
01:18:59,834 --> 01:19:02,667
when he's providing information
about a man in his address book
1749
01:19:02,751 --> 01:19:05,667
who is Osama Bin Laden's
personal assistant
1750
01:19:05,751 --> 01:19:08,125
is a remarkable failure.
1751
01:19:08,209 --> 01:19:11,626
Abu Zubaydah's isolation
was not about Abu Zubaydah.
1752
01:19:11,709 --> 01:19:15,000
It was about the politics
and legal opinions, right?
1753
01:19:15,083 --> 01:19:17,375
This was the idea
that we need to go hard.
1754
01:19:17,459 --> 01:19:20,000
We want it on paper that
you will not prosecute us
1755
01:19:20,083 --> 01:19:21,500
for engaging in torture.
1756
01:19:26,334 --> 01:19:28,751
From the very beginning
in late 2001,
1757
01:19:28,834 --> 01:19:30,417
there were people
in the Agency,
1758
01:19:30,500 --> 01:19:32,125
in the
Counterterrorism Division,
1759
01:19:32,209 --> 01:19:35,584
in their legal department
discussing torture.
1760
01:19:35,667 --> 01:19:37,042
And they're using
the word "torture."
1761
01:19:37,125 --> 01:19:39,083
One email says
in the subject line,
1762
01:19:39,167 --> 01:19:40,292
"Torture update"
1763
01:19:40,375 --> 01:19:42,417
And the lawyers,
not the operators,
1764
01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:44,125
not people who are
out in the field,
1765
01:19:44,209 --> 01:19:45,542
lawyers are discussing
1766
01:19:45,626 --> 01:19:48,167
how the CIA
can engage in torture
1767
01:19:48,250 --> 01:19:50,125
without being prosecuted
later on.
1768
01:19:50,209 --> 01:19:52,292
And in fact, they reach out
to the Department of Justice
1769
01:19:52,375 --> 01:19:55,083
to try to obtain
a declination of prosecution,
1770
01:19:55,167 --> 01:19:56,792
which says, "If we engage
in torture,
1771
01:19:56,876 --> 01:19:58,959
will you agree
not to prosecute us?"
1772
01:20:00,334 --> 01:20:03,292
Rizzo:
After that initial
briefing by our people,
1773
01:20:03,375 --> 01:20:06,751
I convened a meeting
at the White House.
1774
01:20:06,834 --> 01:20:10,459
The initial reaction,
not just of the
Justice Department lawyers,
1775
01:20:10,542 --> 01:20:11,876
but the White House counsel,
1776
01:20:11,959 --> 01:20:13,918
and the National Security
Council legal advisors
1777
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,292
was what
my initial reaction was.
1778
01:20:17,375 --> 01:20:19,375
What, what is this stuff,
I mean, you know,
1779
01:20:19,459 --> 01:20:21,042
it was just
so beyond anything
1780
01:20:21,125 --> 01:20:23,667
any of us could have
even contemplated.
1781
01:20:25,083 --> 01:20:27,500
None of the lawyers
assembled there said,
1782
01:20:27,584 --> 01:20:28,834
"You guys are crazy.
1783
01:20:28,918 --> 01:20:31,000
"This administration
is never going
1784
01:20:31,083 --> 01:20:32,667
"to do something
like that.
1785
01:20:32,751 --> 01:20:34,834
"This is immoral,
it is illegal.
1786
01:20:34,918 --> 01:20:36,000
End of story."
1787
01:20:36,083 --> 01:20:37,334
None of them did that.
1788
01:20:37,417 --> 01:20:38,459
There's two kinds of lawyers.
1789
01:20:38,542 --> 01:20:40,125
There's one
that comes in and says,
1790
01:20:40,209 --> 01:20:42,500
"What do you want to do, boss?
I'll tell you if it's legal."
1791
01:20:42,584 --> 01:20:44,417
And then there's the other one
that comes in and says,
1792
01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:46,292
"What do you want to do, boss?
I'll make it legal."
1793
01:20:46,375 --> 01:20:49,042
Well, I found out
there were six of those,
1794
01:20:49,125 --> 01:20:50,584
at least six of those
1795
01:20:50,667 --> 01:20:53,209
second type
in the administration.
1796
01:20:53,292 --> 01:20:57,334
Starts with White House
Counsel Alberto Gonzales.
1797
01:20:57,417 --> 01:20:59,959
But the real Machiavelli
in the whole thing,
1798
01:21:00,042 --> 01:21:01,876
and that's an insult
to Machiavelli,
1799
01:21:01,959 --> 01:21:04,292
was David Addington,
1800
01:21:04,375 --> 01:21:06,292
Dick Cheney's go-to man
1801
01:21:06,375 --> 01:21:09,375
for everything
of a legal nature.
1802
01:21:09,459 --> 01:21:12,417
We used to call him when he was
in the Pentagon, "Weird David."
1803
01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:14,125
We thought no one
would listen to David.
1804
01:21:14,209 --> 01:21:15,876
He's so crazy.
1805
01:21:15,959 --> 01:21:17,792
David was crafting
1806
01:21:17,876 --> 01:21:22,292
the, the whole business
of cover for torture
1807
01:21:22,375 --> 01:21:24,250
from the
Vice President's office,
1808
01:21:24,334 --> 01:21:26,959
using John Yoo
using Jay Bybee.
1809
01:21:27,042 --> 01:21:29,417
And the lawyers
are omnipresent.
1810
01:21:29,500 --> 01:21:33,000
If you get a bunch of them
whose whole philosophy is,
1811
01:21:33,083 --> 01:21:34,959
"Tell me what you want
to do, Mr. President,
1812
01:21:35,042 --> 01:21:37,751
and I'll make it legal,"
they mean it.
1813
01:21:37,834 --> 01:21:39,667
Jones: At the very end,
end of July,
1814
01:21:39,751 --> 01:21:41,250
Condoleezza Rice
is pushing back.
1815
01:21:41,334 --> 01:21:43,626
"How can you tell me
waterboarding,
1816
01:21:43,709 --> 01:21:44,918
"sleep deprivation,
1817
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:46,250
"putting someone
in a coffin-shaped box,
1818
01:21:46,334 --> 01:21:47,918
"how can you tell me
this won't result
1819
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,209
"in lasting harm?
1820
01:21:49,292 --> 01:21:51,542
How could you
possibly say that?"
1821
01:21:51,626 --> 01:21:55,209
So Mitchell and company
go back to the SERE Program
1822
01:21:55,292 --> 01:21:56,667
and they say,
"Has there ever been
1823
01:21:56,751 --> 01:21:59,083
any lasting harm
with these techniques?"
1824
01:21:59,167 --> 01:22:01,292
And the SERE Program says,
"Hold on.
1825
01:22:01,375 --> 01:22:03,751
"First of all,
this is a training scenario.
1826
01:22:03,834 --> 01:22:06,292
"We expose these members
very briefly
1827
01:22:06,375 --> 01:22:08,083
"to techniques used
by our enemies
1828
01:22:08,167 --> 01:22:09,375
"that don't believe
in Geneva.
1829
01:22:09,459 --> 01:22:11,042
"And second of all,
are you thinking
1830
01:22:11,125 --> 01:22:13,000
"about using this
for intelligence collection?
1831
01:22:13,083 --> 01:22:15,834
Because this doesn't--
this isn't for that."
1832
01:22:15,918 --> 01:22:17,167
Woman:
Raise your right hand.
1833
01:22:17,250 --> 01:22:19,667
Gibney: For some reason,
the CIA never consulted
1834
01:22:19,751 --> 01:22:20,918
its own experts.
1835
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:22,417
One of them
was Charles Morgan,
1836
01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:23,876
a psychiatrist
who had studied
1837
01:22:23,959 --> 01:22:25,542
the effects of
the SERE Program
1838
01:22:25,626 --> 01:22:27,959
and knew that
some soldiers had died
1839
01:22:28,042 --> 01:22:30,667
and many others
suffered from PTSD.
1840
01:22:30,751 --> 01:22:33,000
With respect to stress,
it was well known
1841
01:22:33,083 --> 01:22:35,083
with the data
we had presented
1842
01:22:35,167 --> 01:22:37,125
and were publishing
in the science community
1843
01:22:37,209 --> 01:22:40,042
that the level of stress
in the training program
1844
01:22:40,125 --> 01:22:43,042
was creating hormone changes
and psychological changes
1845
01:22:43,125 --> 01:22:45,209
greater than we'd
ever measured in humans,
1846
01:22:45,292 --> 01:22:46,918
in human experiments
1847
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,375
and that that stress
was capable
1848
01:22:49,459 --> 01:22:51,500
of being traumatic
1849
01:22:51,584 --> 01:22:54,584
in the training program,
that it had that capacity.
1850
01:22:54,667 --> 01:22:56,042
So, I would have said that.
1851
01:22:56,125 --> 01:22:57,709
The second point
would have been
1852
01:22:57,792 --> 01:22:59,209
that, um...
1853
01:22:59,292 --> 01:23:02,042
as a way of using techniques
to get information,
1854
01:23:02,125 --> 01:23:04,542
it was probably
a very dumb idea.
1855
01:23:04,626 --> 01:23:06,792
And I would
say that because
1856
01:23:06,876 --> 01:23:08,667
the impact of stress
on human cognition
1857
01:23:08,751 --> 01:23:10,334
degrades
cognitive functioning
1858
01:23:10,417 --> 01:23:12,500
and human memory.
1859
01:23:12,584 --> 01:23:14,667
Rapport-building techniques
is, is the way to go
1860
01:23:14,751 --> 01:23:17,125
if you want
to get accurate data.
1861
01:23:17,209 --> 01:23:19,709
That never gets reported
back to Rice.
1862
01:23:21,584 --> 01:23:23,167
Rizzo:
A month or two later,
1863
01:23:23,250 --> 01:23:25,792
we received the final
written opinion,
1864
01:23:25,876 --> 01:23:28,542
the first of many
over the years,
1865
01:23:28,626 --> 01:23:31,083
now euphemistically
referred to
1866
01:23:31,167 --> 01:23:33,459
as the torture memos.
1867
01:23:33,542 --> 01:23:35,042
Gibney:
The first memo was predicated
1868
01:23:35,125 --> 01:23:37,542
on facts presented
by the CIA.
1869
01:23:37,626 --> 01:23:40,918
But it also stated that
if those facts were to change,
1870
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:43,584
the legal basis for torture
might disappear.
1871
01:23:43,667 --> 01:23:47,292
And what if the facts
weren't facts at all?
1872
01:23:47,375 --> 01:23:50,042
As support for EITs,
the CIA presented
1873
01:23:50,125 --> 01:23:52,959
a psychological assessment
of Abu Zubaydah
1874
01:23:53,042 --> 01:23:55,209
as a rationale
for why the agency
1875
01:23:55,292 --> 01:23:58,459
would have to subject him
to something different.
1876
01:23:58,542 --> 01:24:01,209
Here, take a look at this,
or-or scan through it quickly.
1877
01:24:01,292 --> 01:24:04,042
-Right.
-And talk about the
psychological assessment
1878
01:24:04,125 --> 01:24:05,542
of how important this was
1879
01:24:05,626 --> 01:24:07,751
in terms of setting up
this whole
1880
01:24:07,834 --> 01:24:10,000
enhanced interrogation program.
1881
01:24:11,083 --> 01:24:12,417
Yeah.
1882
01:24:12,500 --> 01:24:13,792
Yeah, this is it.
1883
01:24:13,876 --> 01:24:15,459
This is the document.
1884
01:24:16,709 --> 01:24:18,751
It's really overly generous
1885
01:24:18,834 --> 01:24:21,167
to call this
a psychological assessment.
1886
01:24:21,250 --> 01:24:23,584
That's the label
they give to it.
1887
01:24:23,667 --> 01:24:26,250
Um, but, um,
1888
01:24:26,334 --> 01:24:28,918
what it is,
an-an-and to this day,
1889
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,292
so far as I know,
we don't know who wrote it.
1890
01:24:32,375 --> 01:24:35,918
What we know is that
it was faxed to John Yoo,
1891
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:38,292
who is a lawyer in the Office
of Legal Counsel
1892
01:24:38,375 --> 01:24:41,375
on the 24th of July
of 2002,
1893
01:24:41,459 --> 01:24:45,209
when Yoo was drafting
the torture memo.
1894
01:24:45,292 --> 01:24:47,542
In the memo that approves
1895
01:24:47,626 --> 01:24:50,959
the enhanced interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah,
1896
01:24:51,042 --> 01:24:54,334
John Yoo recognizes
that these techniques
1897
01:24:54,417 --> 01:24:57,459
could have lasting
destructive effect
1898
01:24:57,542 --> 01:24:58,834
on Abu Zubaydah.
1899
01:24:58,918 --> 01:25:01,209
And for that reason,
it is important, he says,
1900
01:25:01,292 --> 01:25:04,125
to know something
about his background
1901
01:25:04,209 --> 01:25:06,042
and psychological profile.
1902
01:25:06,125 --> 01:25:08,542
So lo and behold,
this document appears,
1903
01:25:08,626 --> 01:25:12,250
which says, here's--
here's who he is.
1904
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:16,626
Soufan: They made
their legal position
1905
01:25:16,709 --> 01:25:19,751
based on facts presented
to them by the CIA.
1906
01:25:20,834 --> 01:25:22,667
And their facts are what?
1907
01:25:22,751 --> 01:25:25,626
That Abu Zubaydah
was not cooperating.
1908
01:25:25,709 --> 01:25:27,334
Which is a lie.
He was.
1909
01:25:27,417 --> 01:25:30,083
There was a discussion
about the CIA representation
1910
01:25:30,167 --> 01:25:32,500
that Abu Zubaydah
is resisting interrogation
1911
01:25:32,584 --> 01:25:34,375
and that he's
a trained resister.
1912
01:25:34,459 --> 01:25:36,542
But there's no evidence
of that whatsoever.
1913
01:25:36,626 --> 01:25:38,375
In fact, all of
the documentary evidence
1914
01:25:38,459 --> 01:25:41,209
suggests that Abu Zubaydah
always cooperated.
1915
01:25:41,292 --> 01:25:43,250
Joe Margulies: It claims,
"Abu Zubaydah is currently
1916
01:25:43,334 --> 01:25:45,918
the third or fourth man
in Al-Qaeda." That's wrong.
1917
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:47,667
He wasn't even
a member of Al-Qaeda,
1918
01:25:47,751 --> 01:25:48,709
and we knew that.
1919
01:25:48,792 --> 01:25:50,542
There was only one person
1920
01:25:50,626 --> 01:25:52,125
who ever identified
Abu Zubaydah
1921
01:25:52,209 --> 01:25:53,792
as number three
or four in Al-Qaeda.
1922
01:25:53,876 --> 01:25:56,125
And we know this
because CTC legal,
1923
01:25:56,209 --> 01:25:57,375
the top of CTC legal,
1924
01:25:57,459 --> 01:25:59,000
the people who's providing
this information
1925
01:25:59,083 --> 01:26:00,292
to the Department of Justice,
1926
01:26:00,375 --> 01:26:01,417
discussed the fact
1927
01:26:01,500 --> 01:26:03,083
that there was one person
who said this
1928
01:26:03,167 --> 01:26:04,667
and the person
retracted that
1929
01:26:04,751 --> 01:26:07,042
in June or July of 2002,
1930
01:26:07,125 --> 01:26:09,500
prior to
the DOJ legal opinion.
1931
01:26:09,584 --> 01:26:11,125
Yet they keep it in there.
1932
01:26:11,209 --> 01:26:13,417
"A planner of
the September 11 hijackings."
1933
01:26:13,500 --> 01:26:14,459
That's wrong.
1934
01:26:14,542 --> 01:26:16,083
"Alleged to have written
Al-Qaeda's manual
1935
01:26:16,167 --> 01:26:17,834
on resistance techniques."
That's wrong.
1936
01:26:17,918 --> 01:26:19,751
"Involved in every major
Al-Qaeda
1937
01:26:19,834 --> 01:26:21,584
terrorist operation."
That's wrong.
1938
01:26:21,667 --> 01:26:23,042
"Served as
the operational planner
1939
01:26:23,125 --> 01:26:25,042
for the Millennium plot."
That's wrong.
1940
01:26:25,125 --> 01:26:26,584
"Directed the startup
1941
01:26:26,667 --> 01:26:29,125
of a Bin Laden cell
in Jordan."
1942
01:26:29,209 --> 01:26:31,083
No.
"Managed a network
1943
01:26:31,167 --> 01:26:32,751
of training camps
for Al-Qaeda."
1944
01:26:32,834 --> 01:26:34,667
No. It's-- there's nothing.
1945
01:26:36,626 --> 01:26:39,000
Gibney:
The CIA claims
presented as facts
1946
01:26:39,083 --> 01:26:40,626
resulted in
official legal approval
1947
01:26:40,709 --> 01:26:44,292
for the new Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques.
1948
01:26:44,375 --> 01:26:47,626
The only question was
who would decide in the field
1949
01:26:47,709 --> 01:26:49,876
when to throw the prisoner
against the wall
1950
01:26:49,959 --> 01:26:52,042
and when to waterboard him.
1951
01:26:55,375 --> 01:26:56,584
Mitchell:
At some point,
1952
01:26:56,667 --> 01:26:59,584
Jose Rodriguez came up
to me and said,
1953
01:26:59,667 --> 01:27:02,042
"Will you do
these interrogations?"
1954
01:27:02,125 --> 01:27:04,792
And I said... "No."
1955
01:27:04,876 --> 01:27:07,918
And then one
of his senior guys
1956
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:09,500
leaned into me and said,
1957
01:27:09,584 --> 01:27:11,292
"You've watched him now
for months.
1958
01:27:11,375 --> 01:27:12,918
"You've seen
all the intelligence.
1959
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:14,417
"You know what
we're up against.
1960
01:27:14,500 --> 01:27:15,876
"And if you're not
willing to help,
1961
01:27:15,959 --> 01:27:17,792
how can we ask
somebody else to?"
1962
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:22,250
I wasn't willing
to stand by.
1963
01:27:22,334 --> 01:27:25,751
I knew that I would feel
much worse about myself
1964
01:27:25,834 --> 01:27:29,375
if there had been
a big smoking hole
in Los Angeles
1965
01:27:29,459 --> 01:27:31,042
that had killed
a bunch of people
1966
01:27:31,125 --> 01:27:33,375
and I had walked away
from something
1967
01:27:33,459 --> 01:27:36,000
that the Justice Department
said was legal,
1968
01:27:36,083 --> 01:27:39,042
that I was unwilling
to help them with.
1969
01:27:39,125 --> 01:27:41,792
I said, "I will do it,
but I need help
1970
01:27:41,876 --> 01:27:44,876
because I don't know
everything I need to know."
1971
01:27:44,959 --> 01:27:46,584
And they had worked
with Doc Jessen,
1972
01:27:46,667 --> 01:27:48,209
so they agreed
to bring him in.
1973
01:27:48,292 --> 01:27:50,167
He had been through
several interrogation courses.
1974
01:27:50,250 --> 01:27:52,167
He's brilliant
and much more familiar
1975
01:27:52,250 --> 01:27:53,751
with these things
than I was.
1976
01:27:55,209 --> 01:27:56,834
I don't know exactly
how it happened,
1977
01:27:56,918 --> 01:27:59,959
but Jose Rodriguez...
What?
1978
01:28:00,042 --> 01:28:01,292
Is that okay?
1979
01:28:01,375 --> 01:28:04,125
Alright.
Jose Rodriguez, uh...
1980
01:28:05,542 --> 01:28:07,918
who already had
a relationship with Jim,
1981
01:28:08,459 --> 01:28:09,417
uh...
1982
01:28:10,876 --> 01:28:14,125
they had a discussion
about the tactics,
1983
01:28:14,209 --> 01:28:17,125
uh, that are used
at the SERE School to train
1984
01:28:18,042 --> 01:28:19,292
not just the standard folks
1985
01:28:19,375 --> 01:28:23,042
but the special operators
in particular.
1986
01:28:23,125 --> 01:28:26,417
Jose told me that
he asked Jim what he needed,
1987
01:28:26,500 --> 01:28:29,918
and Jim said that
he would like me to help him.
1988
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:31,876
Lawyer: So what led you
to conclude that they were
1989
01:28:31,959 --> 01:28:33,709
quote,
"eminently qualified"?
1990
01:28:33,792 --> 01:28:35,292
I just took it for granted
that they knew
1991
01:28:35,375 --> 01:28:36,667
what they were doing.
1992
01:28:39,167 --> 01:28:42,083
Kleinman:
Jim Mitchell and Bruce Jessen
helped develop the best
1993
01:28:42,167 --> 01:28:43,751
Resistance
to Interrogation program
1994
01:28:43,834 --> 01:28:45,167
in the world, bar none.
1995
01:28:45,250 --> 01:28:46,792
But here's what
should have happened.
1996
01:28:46,876 --> 01:28:49,500
After their presentation,
George Tenet
should have said,
1997
01:28:49,584 --> 01:28:50,626
"Gentlemen,
1998
01:28:50,709 --> 01:28:52,000
"I really appreciate
you coming by,
1999
01:28:52,083 --> 01:28:53,667
"but just a few questions
before you leave.
2000
01:28:53,751 --> 01:28:56,125
"I didn't see here--
Tell me about the,
2001
01:28:56,209 --> 01:28:57,626
"the real-world interrogations
2002
01:28:57,709 --> 01:28:59,792
"that you've
actually conducted?
2003
01:28:59,876 --> 01:29:01,417
"Oh. None. Okay.
2004
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:04,417
"Well, how about
the real-world interrogations
2005
01:29:04,500 --> 01:29:06,500
"that you've observed?
2006
01:29:06,584 --> 01:29:08,751
"Oh, well,
maybe a couple? Okay.
2007
01:29:08,834 --> 01:29:10,375
"Um, alright. Well,
2008
01:29:10,459 --> 01:29:13,167
"but you've worked in the
intelligence world before? No.
2009
01:29:13,250 --> 01:29:15,042
"But you do have
a deep understanding of--
2010
01:29:15,125 --> 01:29:16,459
"No, not that either.
2011
01:29:17,709 --> 01:29:19,000
"All right, well,
so you've actually,
2012
01:29:19,083 --> 01:29:20,876
"your experience is
all about teaching resistance,
2013
01:29:20,959 --> 01:29:23,334
"which was actually--
we were mimicking the
2014
01:29:23,417 --> 01:29:24,792
"what we call torture
2015
01:29:24,876 --> 01:29:27,542
"by countries that weren't
signatory to Geneva Convention.
2016
01:29:27,626 --> 01:29:29,751
"And the doctrine was,
if I recall,
2017
01:29:29,834 --> 01:29:31,000
"that that...
2018
01:29:31,083 --> 01:29:34,042
"is not useful
for anything but propaganda
2019
01:29:34,125 --> 01:29:36,834
"and false confessions,
which,
2020
01:29:36,918 --> 01:29:38,751
"I'm the, I'm the director
of Central Intelligence,
2021
01:29:38,834 --> 01:29:40,334
"I deal with information.
That'd be on the other end
2022
01:29:40,417 --> 01:29:42,292
"of the spectrum
from intelligence.
2023
01:29:42,375 --> 01:29:44,417
"So why is it that
we could switch...
2024
01:29:44,500 --> 01:29:46,459
"We really can't.
Well, gentlemen,
2025
01:29:46,542 --> 01:29:49,167
"you are the best at teaching
resistance to interrogation.
2026
01:29:49,250 --> 01:29:51,209
"We need to hire you
to train everybody
2027
01:29:51,292 --> 01:29:52,792
"in this room
that ever goes overseas.
2028
01:29:52,876 --> 01:29:56,334
"But when it comes
to interrogation,
thank you for your time."
2029
01:29:56,417 --> 01:29:59,375
Gibney: There's
that word again: time.
2030
01:29:59,459 --> 01:30:01,667
As it turned out,
the CIA was so grateful
2031
01:30:01,751 --> 01:30:03,500
for Mitchell
and Jessen's time
2032
01:30:03,584 --> 01:30:05,792
that the agency paid
the psychologists
2033
01:30:05,876 --> 01:30:07,292
$1,800 a day
2034
01:30:07,375 --> 01:30:10,292
to go back to Thailand
to interrogate Abu Zubaydah.
2035
01:30:10,375 --> 01:30:12,667
While they weren't
interrogators,
2036
01:30:12,751 --> 01:30:15,083
they were armed
with one important weapon,
2037
01:30:15,167 --> 01:30:16,918
a decision from
the Department of Justice
2038
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:19,459
that would allow them
to torture Abu Zubaydah
2039
01:30:19,542 --> 01:30:23,459
within seconds of death
without fear of prosecution.
2040
01:30:23,542 --> 01:30:25,500
Rizzo:
A fateful decision was made
2041
01:30:25,584 --> 01:30:27,334
at the beginning
of his interrogation
2042
01:30:27,417 --> 01:30:29,125
to videotape the sessions.
2043
01:30:29,209 --> 01:30:32,626
We were just trying to ponder
every worst-case scenario.
2044
01:30:32,709 --> 01:30:35,626
That he dies
while in CIA custody.
2045
01:30:35,709 --> 01:30:37,000
The possibility would exist
2046
01:30:37,083 --> 01:30:39,000
that somewhere
somehow someone
2047
01:30:39,083 --> 01:30:42,167
would accuse CIA
of purposely killing him.
2048
01:30:48,751 --> 01:30:52,209
Jones:
They begin at 11:50 a.m.
on August 4th.
2049
01:30:52,292 --> 01:30:54,334
Abu Zubaydah is hooded.
2050
01:30:54,417 --> 01:30:57,125
A coffin-shaped box
is brought into the room.
2051
01:30:57,209 --> 01:31:00,250
Abu Zubaydah is unhooded
and shown the box...
2052
01:31:00,334 --> 01:31:02,334
the insinuation being,
of course,
2053
01:31:02,417 --> 01:31:05,834
that he could be killed
and buried there.
2054
01:31:05,918 --> 01:31:09,334
Within seven hours,
around six p.m. that night,
2055
01:31:09,417 --> 01:31:11,667
Abu Zubaydah is waterboarded
for the first time.
2056
01:31:13,334 --> 01:31:15,209
He's in isolation
for 47 days.
2057
01:31:15,292 --> 01:31:17,167
Within six hours,
he's waterboarded,
2058
01:31:17,250 --> 01:31:20,375
and he has these convulsions
and he vomits.
2059
01:31:22,542 --> 01:31:24,083
And for 17 days,
2060
01:31:24,167 --> 01:31:26,417
Abu Zubaydah
is tortured nonstop.
2061
01:31:32,125 --> 01:31:34,667
Lawyer: I was reading
through the cables
2062
01:31:34,751 --> 01:31:38,250
from Abu Zubaydah's
interrogation.
2063
01:31:38,334 --> 01:31:39,876
Do remember those cables?
2064
01:31:41,167 --> 01:31:42,667
Uh, it's been 15 years.
2065
01:31:42,751 --> 01:31:44,542
Lawyer: Okay, let's,
let's show them to you.
2066
01:31:45,834 --> 01:31:47,584
This is a cable regarding
2067
01:31:47,667 --> 01:31:50,125
the interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah, correct?
2068
01:31:50,209 --> 01:31:51,167
Yes.
2069
01:31:52,292 --> 01:31:54,209
Lawyer:
And it goes through a number
2070
01:31:54,292 --> 01:31:56,542
of Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques,
right?
2071
01:31:56,626 --> 01:31:58,167
-Rodriguez: Yes.
-Lawyer: It describes walling
2072
01:31:58,250 --> 01:32:02,250
and, um, and it describes
the confinement box.
2073
01:32:02,334 --> 01:32:06,417
And in paragraph nine,
it says,
2074
01:32:06,500 --> 01:32:09,125
the "subject has not provided
any new threat
2075
01:32:09,209 --> 01:32:11,292
or elaborated on
any old threat information."
2076
01:32:11,375 --> 01:32:13,000
-Do you see that?
-Yes.
2077
01:32:13,083 --> 01:32:15,709
Lawyer: Um, when you read
that kind of thing,
2078
01:32:15,792 --> 01:32:17,709
was there any sense
2079
01:32:17,792 --> 01:32:20,792
that the Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques
2080
01:32:20,876 --> 01:32:22,292
were not being effective?
2081
01:32:22,375 --> 01:32:24,334
-At that point.
-Lawyer: At that point what?
2082
01:32:24,417 --> 01:32:26,000
At that point,
they were not being effective.
2083
01:32:26,083 --> 01:32:27,626
-Eventually, they were.
-Lawyer: Okay.
2084
01:32:27,709 --> 01:32:30,542
In what regard
did you then dial it back?
2085
01:32:30,626 --> 01:32:32,459
Because I'm reading
these cables
2086
01:32:32,542 --> 01:32:33,918
and it looks like
for 17 days,
2087
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,334
he's being waterboarded
and he's put in confined,
2088
01:32:37,417 --> 01:32:39,209
in-in a confinement box
2089
01:32:39,292 --> 01:32:41,792
and put in stress positions
and walled.
2090
01:32:41,876 --> 01:32:44,334
-Am I wrong about that?
-Man: Objection.
2091
01:32:46,209 --> 01:32:49,125
Jones: He spent 11 days
in the coffin-shaped box
2092
01:32:49,209 --> 01:32:51,167
several days
in a much smaller box.
2093
01:32:51,250 --> 01:32:54,626
If he wasn't in the smaller box
or in the coffin-shaped box,
2094
01:32:54,709 --> 01:32:58,083
he was on the waterboard
with a towel over his face
2095
01:32:58,167 --> 01:33:00,083
or in
a sleep deprivation position,
2096
01:33:00,167 --> 01:33:02,250
essentially hanging
from the cell.
2097
01:33:04,834 --> 01:33:06,417
Margulies: He was put
in these boxes,
2098
01:33:06,500 --> 01:33:08,083
not much wider
than his shoulders
2099
01:33:08,167 --> 01:33:09,417
and not much higher
than him.
2100
01:33:09,500 --> 01:33:12,667
And he was just left there,
260-some hours
2101
01:33:12,751 --> 01:33:15,334
to urinate
and defecate on himself.
2102
01:33:15,417 --> 01:33:18,167
That's not in the cables,
2103
01:33:18,250 --> 01:33:20,000
but his drawings capture that.
2104
01:33:40,584 --> 01:33:42,792
Mitchell:
Most people misunderstand
2105
01:33:42,876 --> 01:33:43,918
or they don't understand
2106
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,375
or they haven't bothered
to understand
2107
01:33:46,459 --> 01:33:48,667
the way that EITs were used.
2108
01:33:48,751 --> 01:33:51,500
EITs were used
to shape cooperation.
2109
01:33:51,584 --> 01:33:54,709
So what you did is
you put them in a situation
2110
01:33:54,792 --> 01:33:56,542
where they were uncomfortable,
2111
01:33:56,626 --> 01:33:59,042
and then as soon as they started
working with you,
2112
01:33:59,125 --> 01:34:02,042
even a little bit,
you-you cut back on that
2113
01:34:02,125 --> 01:34:04,626
and shift to
social influence techniques.
2114
01:34:04,709 --> 01:34:06,375
Jones:
Mitchell and Jessen themselves
2115
01:34:06,459 --> 01:34:08,000
engaged in the waterboarding.
2116
01:34:08,083 --> 01:34:11,334
They engaged in
all of the Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques.
2117
01:34:11,417 --> 01:34:13,334
And yet they had never applied
these techniques
2118
01:34:13,417 --> 01:34:15,792
to any members
of the US military.
2119
01:34:15,876 --> 01:34:18,292
They were only observers.
2120
01:34:18,375 --> 01:34:19,876
The initial legal opinion
2121
01:34:19,959 --> 01:34:22,000
approved everything
but waterboarding.
2122
01:34:22,083 --> 01:34:24,626
But Jim Mitchell said
he would not do this
2123
01:34:24,709 --> 01:34:26,459
unless waterboarding
was approved
2124
01:34:26,542 --> 01:34:29,667
because it's an absolutely
convincing technique.
2125
01:34:31,500 --> 01:34:33,083
Mitchell:
The Justice Department said
2126
01:34:33,167 --> 01:34:36,834
you could waterboard from
20 to 40 seconds,
2127
01:34:36,918 --> 01:34:39,167
give them three full breaths
2128
01:34:39,250 --> 01:34:42,834
and then waterboard again
for 20 minutes.
2129
01:34:42,918 --> 01:34:45,417
The first time we waterboarded
Abu Zubaydah,
2130
01:34:45,500 --> 01:34:49,626
it was clear to me
that that was too much water
2131
01:34:49,709 --> 01:34:51,125
and it was too long.
2132
01:34:51,209 --> 01:34:53,792
So what we did was
we cut back
2133
01:34:53,876 --> 01:34:57,292
to pours that were
eight seconds.
2134
01:35:03,918 --> 01:35:07,209
You can easily hold
your breath for eight seconds.
2135
01:35:07,292 --> 01:35:09,042
And then there were
two pours
2136
01:35:09,125 --> 01:35:10,500
that were 20 seconds
2137
01:35:10,584 --> 01:35:12,876
and one pour
that was 40 seconds.
2138
01:35:14,834 --> 01:35:16,626
Gibney: Eighty-three times,
was that the number?
2139
01:35:16,709 --> 01:35:19,042
That's the number
of times it was poured.
2140
01:35:19,125 --> 01:35:21,375
We know now
that he was waterboarded
2141
01:35:21,459 --> 01:35:24,709
83 times in the month
of August alone
2142
01:35:24,792 --> 01:35:26,542
and what
the waterboarding is, right,
2143
01:35:26,626 --> 01:35:29,459
sometimes you'll
see it described as
"simulated drowning."
2144
01:35:29,542 --> 01:35:32,000
There's nothing "simulated"
about it at all.
2145
01:35:32,083 --> 01:35:33,542
It's drowning, right?
2146
01:35:33,626 --> 01:35:34,792
You are strapped to a board,
2147
01:35:34,876 --> 01:35:38,626
your legs,
your chest, your arms,
2148
01:35:38,709 --> 01:35:40,542
and your head
is strapped down
2149
01:35:40,626 --> 01:35:41,751
so you cannot move.
2150
01:35:41,834 --> 01:35:43,000
You're utterly immobilized.
2151
01:35:43,083 --> 01:35:46,125
And your neck
is lower than your feet.
2152
01:35:46,209 --> 01:35:47,375
Then they wrap your face
2153
01:35:47,459 --> 01:35:48,876
in something
to obstruct breathing,
2154
01:35:48,959 --> 01:35:51,375
but that allows water
to pass through.
2155
01:35:51,459 --> 01:35:54,751
And then they pour water
up your nose
2156
01:35:54,834 --> 01:35:58,459
and down your throat
so that you breathe the water.
2157
01:35:58,542 --> 01:36:01,500
And if you breathe water,
you will drown.
2158
01:36:01,584 --> 01:36:03,584
And so, straining
against the straps,
2159
01:36:03,667 --> 01:36:06,542
unable to move,
you begin to drown.
2160
01:36:06,626 --> 01:36:09,667
And the art of this
particular torture
2161
01:36:09,751 --> 01:36:12,500
is to know just the moment
2162
01:36:12,584 --> 01:36:15,125
when the brain
convinces the person
2163
01:36:15,209 --> 01:36:16,792
they are about to drown.
2164
01:36:16,876 --> 01:36:19,000
You are about to die.
2165
01:36:19,083 --> 01:36:21,334
And at just that instant,
2166
01:36:21,417 --> 01:36:24,792
when you have just given up
into hysteria
2167
01:36:24,876 --> 01:36:26,459
because you are
about to drown,
2168
01:36:26,542 --> 01:36:28,459
that's when they
raise the board
2169
01:36:28,542 --> 01:36:30,292
and you vomit.
2170
01:36:30,375 --> 01:36:32,292
And just as you take
the first breath,
2171
01:36:32,375 --> 01:36:35,250
they put it down again
and then do it again.
2172
01:36:36,667 --> 01:36:39,000
Mitchell: He wasn't
waterboarded on a board.
2173
01:36:39,083 --> 01:36:42,209
He was waterboarded
on a hospital surgical gurney.
2174
01:36:42,292 --> 01:36:46,083
Because that's what the CIA
wanted him waterboarded on.
2175
01:36:46,167 --> 01:36:48,584
I can't tell you the number,
but it took more than a handful
2176
01:36:48,667 --> 01:36:50,042
of security guards
to raise it up
2177
01:36:50,125 --> 01:36:52,459
so he could clear
his nasal passages.
2178
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,876
Jones: The cables show that
he's having involuntary spasms.
2179
01:36:57,959 --> 01:37:01,042
He's weeping,
he's crying out for Allah.
2180
01:37:01,125 --> 01:37:03,125
Mitchell: We weren't interested
in drowning him.
2181
01:37:03,209 --> 01:37:05,500
We were interested
in getting him
2182
01:37:05,584 --> 01:37:07,334
to want to work with us.
2183
01:37:07,417 --> 01:37:09,334
We weren't interested
in making him suffer.
2184
01:37:09,417 --> 01:37:10,834
Nobody was interested
in that.
2185
01:37:10,918 --> 01:37:12,834
Now, you know,
because it is an art,
2186
01:37:12,918 --> 01:37:15,250
one time they waited
too long
2187
01:37:15,334 --> 01:37:17,709
and they didn't
raise him up fast enough.
2188
01:37:20,459 --> 01:37:24,667
And he actually did come
very, very close to dying.
2189
01:37:24,751 --> 01:37:26,500
Jones: During
one waterboarding session,
2190
01:37:26,584 --> 01:37:29,083
Abu Zubaydah became
completely unresponsive,
2191
01:37:29,167 --> 01:37:31,125
with bubbles rising
out of his mouth
2192
01:37:31,209 --> 01:37:33,334
and needed to have
medical intervention.
2193
01:37:36,834 --> 01:37:39,042
Gibney: Following
his near-death experience,
2194
01:37:39,125 --> 01:37:41,167
Abu Zubaydah
became compliant,
2195
01:37:41,250 --> 01:37:43,292
just like the dogs
who'd been shocked.
2196
01:37:43,375 --> 01:37:45,250
As Mitchell predicted,
2197
01:37:45,334 --> 01:37:47,792
Abu Zubaydah
learned helplessness.
2198
01:37:57,083 --> 01:38:00,250
Rizzo:
This is a perilous course
for the CIA to undertake.
2199
01:38:00,334 --> 01:38:02,292
So we made
a collective decision
2200
01:38:02,375 --> 01:38:03,834
that no one in CIA
2201
01:38:03,918 --> 01:38:06,584
would be required
to take part in it
2202
01:38:06,667 --> 01:38:08,709
if their moral, ethical,
2203
01:38:08,792 --> 01:38:11,000
or just personal dictates
2204
01:38:11,083 --> 01:38:12,876
could not do it.
2205
01:38:12,959 --> 01:38:15,292
They were hardcore
about continuing this,
2206
01:38:15,375 --> 01:38:17,792
but after 72 hours,
I became convinced
2207
01:38:17,876 --> 01:38:19,709
and Doc Jessen became convinced
2208
01:38:19,792 --> 01:38:21,876
that while he had
a lot of information
2209
01:38:21,959 --> 01:38:24,834
that could help us
stop threats in other countries
2210
01:38:24,918 --> 01:38:28,542
and help us identify
the structure of Al-Qaeda,
2211
01:38:28,626 --> 01:38:30,542
he didn't know anything
about attacks
2212
01:38:30,626 --> 01:38:32,334
that were on the ground
in place
2213
01:38:32,417 --> 01:38:33,584
in the United States.
2214
01:38:33,667 --> 01:38:35,667
And so Doc Jessen
and I said,
2215
01:38:35,751 --> 01:38:39,083
"Hey, we don't need
to do this."
2216
01:38:39,167 --> 01:38:40,709
Jones:
Within six days of using
2217
01:38:40,792 --> 01:38:42,375
the Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques,
2218
01:38:42,459 --> 01:38:45,500
there were calls by
the detention site team
2219
01:38:45,584 --> 01:38:48,876
requesting CIA headquarters'
permission to stop.
2220
01:38:48,959 --> 01:38:51,792
People at the detention site
are upset, choking up,
2221
01:38:51,876 --> 01:38:53,751
wanting to leave
the detention site,
2222
01:38:53,834 --> 01:38:56,751
wanting to quit the program,
wanting to go back home.
2223
01:38:56,834 --> 01:38:58,834
They wrote that
they were reaching
2224
01:38:58,918 --> 01:39:01,167
the legal limits
on what they could do.
2225
01:39:01,250 --> 01:39:03,918
Nonetheless,
Jose Rodriguez responds,
2226
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:06,542
"Do not put your legal concerns
in writing.
2227
01:39:06,626 --> 01:39:08,167
Not helpful."
2228
01:39:10,209 --> 01:39:12,042
Lawyer: Were you involved
in ordering
2229
01:39:12,125 --> 01:39:13,292
Doctors Mitchell and Jessen
2230
01:39:13,375 --> 01:39:15,292
to continue to waterboard
Abu Zubaydah?
2231
01:39:15,375 --> 01:39:16,876
-Yes.
-Lawyer: Why?
2232
01:39:16,959 --> 01:39:20,042
Well, I was the head of it,
and my analysts were concerned
2233
01:39:20,125 --> 01:39:21,959
that perhaps
he was not compliant.
2234
01:39:22,042 --> 01:39:23,042
Lawyer: Mm-hmm.
2235
01:39:23,125 --> 01:39:24,626
It says,
"For several days,"
2236
01:39:24,709 --> 01:39:26,042
Dr. Mitchell writes,
"We questioned
2237
01:39:26,125 --> 01:39:28,459
"the necessity
of continuing the EITs,
2238
01:39:28,542 --> 01:39:30,500
"but every day
we received cables,
2239
01:39:30,584 --> 01:39:32,083
"phone calls, or emails
instructing us
2240
01:39:32,167 --> 01:39:34,709
"to continue waterboarding
Abu Zubaydah.
2241
01:39:34,792 --> 01:39:36,667
"At one point, Bruce
and I pushed back hard
2242
01:39:36,751 --> 01:39:38,042
"and threatened to quit.
2243
01:39:38,125 --> 01:39:39,959
"We were told, quote,
he's turning you.
2244
01:39:40,042 --> 01:39:41,542
"You are not turning him.
2245
01:39:41,626 --> 01:39:43,751
"The officers
we were dealing with,
2246
01:39:43,834 --> 01:39:45,709
"mid-level CTC officials
2247
01:39:45,792 --> 01:39:47,792
"really pissed us off by saying,
'You've lost your spine.'"
2248
01:39:47,876 --> 01:39:49,250
"You've lost your spine.
He's turned you."
2249
01:39:49,334 --> 01:39:50,918
They called us pussies.
They said--
2250
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:53,000
Lawyer: "If we didn't keep
waterboarding Abu Zubaydah
2251
01:39:53,083 --> 01:39:54,876
"and another attack
happened in United States,
2252
01:39:54,959 --> 01:39:57,042
it would be, quote, unquote,
'Your fault.'"
2253
01:39:57,125 --> 01:39:58,876
Is that,
to your knowledge, true?
2254
01:39:58,959 --> 01:40:01,125
Uh, I don't know what
mid-level officials
2255
01:40:01,209 --> 01:40:04,375
will tell, were telling,
uh... Mitchell.
2256
01:40:04,459 --> 01:40:07,167
Lawyer: Mm-hmm. Did you direct
any mid-level officials
2257
01:40:07,250 --> 01:40:09,542
-to say that kind
of thing to Mitchell?
-No.
2258
01:40:11,500 --> 01:40:14,292
There came a point
when Dr. Jessen and I said,
2259
01:40:14,375 --> 01:40:16,626
"We're not going to continue
doing this, you know.
2260
01:40:16,709 --> 01:40:18,709
"We don't think
it's necessary to continue
2261
01:40:18,792 --> 01:40:20,626
to waterboard
Abu Zubaydah."
2262
01:40:20,709 --> 01:40:23,751
At one point, they requested
that CIA personnel travel
2263
01:40:23,834 --> 01:40:25,042
to the detention site
2264
01:40:25,125 --> 01:40:27,000
and observe
what they were doing.
2265
01:40:27,083 --> 01:40:29,167
CIA headquarters declined.
2266
01:40:29,250 --> 01:40:31,667
So the detention site
personnel decided
2267
01:40:31,751 --> 01:40:33,876
to put together
a "Best Of" tape.
2268
01:40:35,042 --> 01:40:37,125
And the purpose
of that tape was
2269
01:40:37,209 --> 01:40:39,584
to depict
the absolute worst moments
2270
01:40:39,667 --> 01:40:42,792
of torture of Abu Zubaydah,
to make it very visceral.
2271
01:40:42,876 --> 01:40:45,375
So CIA headquarters
would view this tape
2272
01:40:45,459 --> 01:40:46,709
and say,
"Okay, we need to stop.
2273
01:40:46,792 --> 01:40:48,959
We agree. Stop torturing
Abu Zubaydah."
2274
01:40:49,042 --> 01:40:51,959
Instead, headquarters
told them to keep going.
2275
01:40:52,042 --> 01:40:54,542
-Gibney:
After they viewed the tape?
-After they viewed the tape.
2276
01:40:55,834 --> 01:40:58,375
The detention site personnel
were surprised.
2277
01:40:58,459 --> 01:41:00,959
They blamed it on
a poor video link.
2278
01:41:01,042 --> 01:41:02,417
They can't quite see
the quality
2279
01:41:02,500 --> 01:41:05,292
of how bad it is
with this tape.
2280
01:41:05,375 --> 01:41:07,792
They couldn't believe
that anyone could view
2281
01:41:07,876 --> 01:41:10,125
what was happening
and tell them to keep going.
2282
01:41:11,542 --> 01:41:13,751
Gibney: In Washington,
psychologist Terry DeMay,
2283
01:41:13,834 --> 01:41:16,751
the head of CIA's Office
of Medical Services,
2284
01:41:16,834 --> 01:41:18,209
raised a ruckus.
2285
01:41:18,292 --> 01:41:20,667
After receiving
a series of secret messages
2286
01:41:20,751 --> 01:41:22,250
from nurses
at the black site,
2287
01:41:22,334 --> 01:41:24,751
DeMay would later
denounce the interrogation
2288
01:41:24,834 --> 01:41:26,667
as an amateurish experiment,
2289
01:41:26,751 --> 01:41:29,250
not safe or effective.
2290
01:41:29,334 --> 01:41:31,209
To get a firsthand assessment,
2291
01:41:31,292 --> 01:41:34,626
Jose Rodriguez sent a team
from headquarters to Thailand.
2292
01:41:34,709 --> 01:41:38,083
Among them were the lawyer
who had recommended
Mitchell for the job
2293
01:41:38,167 --> 01:41:40,626
and an analyst
named Alfreda Bikowsky,
2294
01:41:40,709 --> 01:41:43,209
whose enthusiasm
for harsh interrogations
2295
01:41:43,292 --> 01:41:47,125
would earn her the nickname
"The Queen of Torture."
2296
01:41:47,209 --> 01:41:49,083
Mitchell:
I suggested that they be
2297
01:41:49,167 --> 01:41:51,125
in the room
with us unmasked
2298
01:41:51,209 --> 01:41:52,584
while we did
the waterboarding
2299
01:41:52,667 --> 01:41:54,792
so they could see
what it was really like.
2300
01:41:54,876 --> 01:41:57,375
And we waterboarded him
one last time,
2301
01:41:57,459 --> 01:42:00,042
and the most senior person
there said,
2302
01:42:00,125 --> 01:42:02,459
"We don't need
to do this anymore.
2303
01:42:02,542 --> 01:42:05,083
"We concur that he probably
doesn't know anything
2304
01:42:05,167 --> 01:42:07,542
"about current threats
inside the United States
2305
01:42:07,626 --> 01:42:09,334
"or he's, you know, he's,
2306
01:42:09,417 --> 01:42:11,459
he's not going
to share them."
2307
01:42:11,542 --> 01:42:14,626
And, um... literally,
2308
01:42:14,709 --> 01:42:17,542
we bathed him and told him
we weren't going to,
2309
01:42:17,626 --> 01:42:19,709
you know, nothing bad
was going to happen to him,
2310
01:42:19,792 --> 01:42:21,918
uh, and, uh...
2311
01:42:22,000 --> 01:42:23,792
it was
a pretty touching moment.
2312
01:42:24,959 --> 01:42:27,083
Gibney:
The CIA cables from Thailand
2313
01:42:27,167 --> 01:42:29,125
struck a very different tone.
2314
01:42:40,167 --> 01:42:41,584
Jones:
The detention site never said
2315
01:42:41,667 --> 01:42:43,876
that Abu Zubaydah
had information.
2316
01:42:43,959 --> 01:42:45,834
In fact, Mitchell
and others say
2317
01:42:45,918 --> 01:42:48,959
the program was a success,
not because it produced
2318
01:42:49,042 --> 01:42:50,667
vital unavailable information,
2319
01:42:50,751 --> 01:42:52,500
but because it proved
from the very beginning
2320
01:42:52,584 --> 01:42:54,083
he never had that information.
2321
01:42:55,167 --> 01:42:57,042
Gibney:
There was one other success.
2322
01:42:57,125 --> 01:42:58,667
Toward the end
of the torture,
2323
01:42:58,751 --> 01:43:00,626
when the new team
from Washington was watching,
2324
01:43:00,709 --> 01:43:03,500
Abu Zubaydah said he made up
a number of plots
2325
01:43:03,584 --> 01:43:05,042
and admitted that, yes,
2326
01:43:05,125 --> 01:43:07,876
he really was the number three
in Al-Qaeda.
2327
01:43:07,959 --> 01:43:11,083
He knew it was false.
The CIA knew it was false.
2328
01:43:11,167 --> 01:43:14,792
But his confession confirmed
that the CIA's techniques
2329
01:43:14,876 --> 01:43:18,209
could get him to say anything
to make the torture stop.
2330
01:43:20,250 --> 01:43:21,834
Jones:
They finally get permission
2331
01:43:21,918 --> 01:43:23,709
to stop torturing
Abu Zubaydah,
2332
01:43:23,792 --> 01:43:26,083
and they call
the program a success.
2333
01:43:26,167 --> 01:43:29,459
And the cable recommends
using the same techniques
2334
01:43:29,542 --> 01:43:31,417
for other
high-value detainees.
2335
01:43:31,500 --> 01:43:34,459
And who wrote that cable?
Jim Mitchell.
2336
01:43:34,542 --> 01:43:36,500
Gibney:
Mitchell denies
writing the cable
2337
01:43:36,584 --> 01:43:38,083
but the techniques he devised
2338
01:43:38,167 --> 01:43:40,125
would become
standard operating procedure
2339
01:43:40,209 --> 01:43:42,125
for the CIA.
2340
01:43:42,209 --> 01:43:45,083
For a price
of over $180 million,
2341
01:43:45,167 --> 01:43:47,417
the CIA would contract
Mitchell and Jessen
2342
01:43:47,500 --> 01:43:49,626
to train and supervise
interrogators
2343
01:43:49,709 --> 01:43:52,417
at black sites
in eight foreign countries.
2344
01:43:52,500 --> 01:43:55,417
Despite Mitchell's attempts
to impose guidelines,
2345
01:43:55,500 --> 01:43:57,792
things would spin
out of control.
2346
01:43:57,876 --> 01:43:59,584
Following the torture
of Abu Zubaydah,
2347
01:43:59,667 --> 01:44:01,918
EITs mutated like a virus
2348
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:04,876
and spread throughout the CIA
to Guantanamo
2349
01:44:04,959 --> 01:44:07,751
and military operations
in Afghanistan and Iraq.
2350
01:44:07,834 --> 01:44:10,667
What evolved
from Mitchell's techniques
2351
01:44:10,751 --> 01:44:12,584
was revealed
in the photographs
2352
01:44:12,667 --> 01:44:14,667
from the prison at Abu Ghraib.
2353
01:44:16,167 --> 01:44:18,500
The public uproar
over those images
2354
01:44:18,584 --> 01:44:20,083
caused the CIA to reckon
2355
01:44:20,167 --> 01:44:21,959
with its own
photographic record.
2356
01:44:22,042 --> 01:44:25,834
("The Blue Danube Waltz"
playing)
2357
01:44:25,918 --> 01:44:29,834
♪ ♪
2358
01:44:34,751 --> 01:44:36,626
Rizzo:
The first time I knew that
2359
01:44:36,709 --> 01:44:37,918
Zubaydah was being videotaped
2360
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:40,542
is when Jose Rodriguez
came to me and said,
2361
01:44:40,626 --> 01:44:43,876
"We have these videotapes.
We want to destroy them."
2362
01:44:43,959 --> 01:44:47,959
So that was the first
I learned that they existed.
2363
01:44:48,042 --> 01:44:51,500
-Interviewer:
What was your reaction?
-(laughs)
2364
01:44:51,584 --> 01:44:53,751
"Whatever you do,
do not destroy them."
2365
01:44:53,834 --> 01:44:57,125
(waltz continues)
2366
01:45:02,417 --> 01:45:03,542
But, of course,
2367
01:45:03,626 --> 01:45:06,876
destroying evidence,
destroying videotapes,
2368
01:45:06,959 --> 01:45:09,334
would inevitably lead
2369
01:45:09,417 --> 01:45:12,626
sooner or later
to accusations of a cover-up.
2370
01:45:13,292 --> 01:45:17,709
♪ ♪
2371
01:45:17,792 --> 01:45:20,000
Rodriguez:
I felt it was important
to have the tapes destroyed
2372
01:45:20,083 --> 01:45:22,792
because I needed
to protect the people
2373
01:45:22,876 --> 01:45:25,876
who were there
in the black sites.
2374
01:45:25,959 --> 01:45:28,209
-That was the primary reason.
-Lawyer: Mm-hmm.
2375
01:45:28,292 --> 01:45:29,834
Was there
a secondary reason?
2376
01:45:29,918 --> 01:45:32,334
Well, the secondary reason,
as I have said publicly,
2377
01:45:32,417 --> 01:45:34,959
was that the, uh...
2378
01:45:36,417 --> 01:45:39,000
public, the media
would not make a distinction
2379
01:45:39,083 --> 01:45:41,250
once the tapes
were released
2380
01:45:41,334 --> 01:45:45,209
between a legally
approved program
like this was
2381
01:45:45,292 --> 01:45:47,250
and the Abu Ghraib scandal
2382
01:45:47,334 --> 01:45:50,459
that involved
illegal activity.
2383
01:45:50,542 --> 01:45:52,292
It would make
the CIA look bad,
2384
01:45:52,375 --> 01:45:54,751
and it would, actually,
in my view,
2385
01:45:54,834 --> 01:45:56,751
you know, almost destroy
2386
01:45:56,834 --> 01:45:58,375
the clandestine service
because of it.
2387
01:45:58,459 --> 01:45:59,709
Lawyer:
Mm-hmm.
2388
01:46:02,751 --> 01:46:04,751
Did you have anything
to do with the destruction
2389
01:46:04,834 --> 01:46:06,042
of those videotapes?
2390
01:46:06,125 --> 01:46:07,042
No.
2391
01:46:07,125 --> 01:46:08,792
Lawyer: Did you have
any conversations
2392
01:46:08,876 --> 01:46:10,125
with anybody
at any time
2393
01:46:10,209 --> 01:46:11,751
about the destruction
of those videotapes
2394
01:46:11,834 --> 01:46:12,792
other than your lawyers?
2395
01:46:12,876 --> 01:46:13,709
Yes.
2396
01:46:13,792 --> 01:46:16,042
Mitchell:
I told the...
2397
01:46:16,125 --> 01:46:17,459
I forget
what he's called,
2398
01:46:17,542 --> 01:46:19,375
I think the chief
of clandestine service,
2399
01:46:19,459 --> 01:46:22,709
that I thought those videotapes
should be destroyed
2400
01:46:22,792 --> 01:46:25,334
because I, I thought
they were ugly
2401
01:46:25,417 --> 01:46:27,834
and they would,
you know,
2402
01:46:27,918 --> 01:46:30,000
potentially endanger
our lives
2403
01:46:30,083 --> 01:46:31,876
by putting
our pictures out,
2404
01:46:31,959 --> 01:46:34,918
uh, so that the bad guys
could see us.
2405
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:36,959
Rizzo: When I learned
that they had been destroyed,
2406
01:46:37,042 --> 01:46:39,500
I was beside myself.
2407
01:46:39,584 --> 01:46:42,459
But I was told, "Oh, your
lawyers signed off on this."
2408
01:46:42,542 --> 01:46:44,751
That piqued my interest,
needless to say.
2409
01:46:46,500 --> 01:46:48,250
But the final
approval authority
2410
01:46:48,334 --> 01:46:51,083
on the actual directive
to the field station
2411
01:46:51,167 --> 01:46:52,709
that was holding these tapes
2412
01:46:52,792 --> 01:46:54,125
was Mr. Rodriguez.
2413
01:46:54,209 --> 01:46:59,167
And it was drafted by
Mr. Rodriguez's chief of staff.
2414
01:46:59,250 --> 01:47:02,334
Gibney: Mr. Rodriguez's chief
of staff was Gina Haspel,
2415
01:47:02,417 --> 01:47:06,667
who would rise to become
the CIA director in 2017.
2416
01:47:06,751 --> 01:47:10,000
Neither she nor Mr. Rodriguez
was punished
2417
01:47:10,083 --> 01:47:12,959
or charged with a crime
for destroying evidence.
2418
01:47:13,042 --> 01:47:15,334
The tapes were destroyed
for one reason,
2419
01:47:15,417 --> 01:47:18,167
and that was because they were
so damned incriminating
2420
01:47:18,250 --> 01:47:19,792
with regard to going beyond,
2421
01:47:19,876 --> 01:47:21,626
going well beyond
anything that,
2422
01:47:21,709 --> 01:47:24,042
you know, you would have had
to have said, "That's torture."
2423
01:47:24,125 --> 01:47:26,375
That's torture,
clear and plain.
2424
01:47:26,459 --> 01:47:29,250
It is not covered by
the Bybee memo, the Yoo memo,
2425
01:47:29,334 --> 01:47:31,542
it's not covered
by anything, that's torture.
2426
01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:36,125
("The Blue Danube Waltz"
continues)
2427
01:47:43,792 --> 01:47:48,125
Margulies: The best evidence
of what happened is the video.
2428
01:47:48,209 --> 01:47:51,334
So the destruction
of the tapes was
2429
01:47:51,417 --> 01:47:53,292
an-an-an egregious abuse.
2430
01:47:54,584 --> 01:47:56,834
You could never capture
2431
01:47:56,918 --> 01:47:58,876
what took place
at Abu Ghraib
2432
01:47:58,959 --> 01:48:00,667
without the pictures.
2433
01:48:00,751 --> 01:48:03,834
We have a dialog
about Abu Ghraib
2434
01:48:03,918 --> 01:48:06,834
because the pictures exist.
2435
01:48:06,918 --> 01:48:09,167
Well, we don't have that
with Abu Zubaydah.
2436
01:48:09,250 --> 01:48:12,250
So we asked him to draw
what was done to him
2437
01:48:12,334 --> 01:48:13,834
as best he could
reconstruct it.
2438
01:48:13,918 --> 01:48:15,334
To understand it.
2439
01:48:20,792 --> 01:48:23,334
Jones: I came to the Senate
in January of 2007.
2440
01:48:23,417 --> 01:48:25,167
By the end of that year,
2441
01:48:25,250 --> 01:48:26,709
there was
a "New York Times" article
2442
01:48:26,792 --> 01:48:29,542
that came out that said
the CIA had destroyed
2443
01:48:29,626 --> 01:48:33,709
interrogation videotapes
from early 2002.
2444
01:48:33,792 --> 01:48:35,417
The Senate Intelligence
Committee had been looking
2445
01:48:35,500 --> 01:48:37,000
to learn more
about this program
2446
01:48:37,083 --> 01:48:38,667
for a very long time.
2447
01:48:38,751 --> 01:48:41,125
They had no idea
that tapes existed,
2448
01:48:41,209 --> 01:48:43,209
so they call the CIA
and demand
2449
01:48:43,292 --> 01:48:45,584
that the then CIA director,
Michael Hayden,
2450
01:48:45,667 --> 01:48:47,709
come to the Committee
to explain
2451
01:48:47,792 --> 01:48:49,542
the destruction of tapes.
2452
01:48:49,626 --> 01:48:51,292
I'm very delighted
to come on down
2453
01:48:51,375 --> 01:48:53,334
and lay out the facts
as we know them,
2454
01:48:53,417 --> 01:48:54,584
and we'll be very happy
2455
01:48:54,667 --> 01:48:56,834
to let the facts take us
where they will.
2456
01:48:56,918 --> 01:48:58,125
Michael Hayden testifies
2457
01:48:58,209 --> 01:49:00,209
that this was not
destruction of evidence.
2458
01:49:00,292 --> 01:49:02,042
In fact, the CIA has
2459
01:49:02,125 --> 01:49:03,918
very detailed
written records
2460
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:06,334
of everything that happened
at the detention site,
2461
01:49:06,417 --> 01:49:08,209
so it didn't need
those videotapes.
2462
01:49:08,292 --> 01:49:09,918
There are written records.
2463
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:11,959
And he says if the committee
wants to see those records,
2464
01:49:12,042 --> 01:49:13,626
of course it can see
those records.
2465
01:49:13,709 --> 01:49:15,792
So what does the committee
say immediately?
2466
01:49:15,876 --> 01:49:17,834
"We want to see
these records tomorrow."
2467
01:49:18,876 --> 01:49:20,542
The committee finally acquires
2468
01:49:20,626 --> 01:49:22,709
those heavily redacted cables
2469
01:49:22,792 --> 01:49:24,959
in May of 2008,
2470
01:49:25,042 --> 01:49:27,417
and myself and two other
Senate staffers
2471
01:49:27,500 --> 01:49:28,626
are sent to the CIA
2472
01:49:28,709 --> 01:49:31,334
to review these cables
and write a report.
2473
01:49:32,459 --> 01:49:33,751
The CIA eventually gave us
2474
01:49:33,834 --> 01:49:37,167
6.3 million pages
of documents.
2475
01:49:37,250 --> 01:49:40,959
We identified at least
119 CIA detainees.
2476
01:49:41,042 --> 01:49:43,375
Reporter: But at the heart
of this release today
2477
01:49:43,459 --> 01:49:45,834
is the conclusion
that the interrogations
2478
01:49:45,918 --> 01:49:48,334
did not make
the country safer
2479
01:49:48,417 --> 01:49:50,459
and that
the CIA misled
2480
01:49:50,542 --> 01:49:52,584
the Bush administration
about the program.
2481
01:49:52,667 --> 01:49:54,500
Jones:
We saw constant manipulation
2482
01:49:54,584 --> 01:49:56,417
of the White House,
the Department of Justice,
2483
01:49:56,500 --> 01:49:57,667
and Congress by the CIA.
2484
01:49:57,751 --> 01:49:59,250
I mean, this is what
I thought would be
2485
01:49:59,334 --> 01:50:00,584
the most important finding
2486
01:50:00,667 --> 01:50:03,167
coming out of the Senate
Intelligence Committee report.
2487
01:50:03,250 --> 01:50:05,876
You know, misleading Bush,
misleading Obama,
2488
01:50:05,959 --> 01:50:08,876
misleading the Congress,
repeatedly we see this.
2489
01:50:08,959 --> 01:50:11,500
John Brennan,
CIA director under Obama,
2490
01:50:11,584 --> 01:50:13,417
made a speech
after the report came out
2491
01:50:13,500 --> 01:50:15,000
and said we'll never know
2492
01:50:15,083 --> 01:50:17,584
if we could've gotten
this intelligence
in any other way.
2493
01:50:17,667 --> 01:50:20,250
...and the ultimate provision
of the information
2494
01:50:20,334 --> 01:50:22,626
is unknown and unknowable.
2495
01:50:22,709 --> 01:50:25,292
Jones: But we do know,
we have an entire report,
2496
01:50:25,375 --> 01:50:28,125
500 pages here
with almost 3,000 footnotes
2497
01:50:28,209 --> 01:50:30,292
and a 7,000-page
classified report
2498
01:50:30,375 --> 01:50:31,709
with 38,000 footnotes
2499
01:50:31,792 --> 01:50:33,667
that says
we do know that, in fact,
2500
01:50:33,751 --> 01:50:35,042
the capture of Jose Padilla
2501
01:50:35,125 --> 01:50:36,667
did not come
from the waterboarding
2502
01:50:36,751 --> 01:50:37,959
of Abu Zubaydah.
2503
01:50:38,042 --> 01:50:40,209
We do know that,
because the records
are there.
2504
01:50:40,292 --> 01:50:42,167
We tortured some folks.
2505
01:50:42,250 --> 01:50:44,959
We did some things that were
contrary to our values.
2506
01:50:45,042 --> 01:50:47,042
It's important for us
2507
01:50:47,125 --> 01:50:48,959
not to,
2508
01:50:49,042 --> 01:50:52,292
uh, feel too sanctimonious
2509
01:50:52,375 --> 01:50:53,876
in retrospect
2510
01:50:53,959 --> 01:50:56,083
about the tough job
that those folks have.
2511
01:50:56,167 --> 01:50:58,000
And a lot of those folks
2512
01:50:58,083 --> 01:51:00,626
were working hard,
2513
01:51:00,709 --> 01:51:04,834
under enormous pressure,
and are real patriots.
2514
01:51:04,918 --> 01:51:07,209
But having said all that...
2515
01:51:07,292 --> 01:51:10,417
we did some things
that were wrong.
2516
01:51:10,500 --> 01:51:12,667
Jones: I remember hearing
that line about patriots
2517
01:51:12,751 --> 01:51:14,375
and thinking
about the people
2518
01:51:14,459 --> 01:51:16,167
who said they were resigning
from the CIA,
2519
01:51:16,250 --> 01:51:18,292
people who said they didn't
want to be involved
in this program
2520
01:51:18,375 --> 01:51:21,042
and the people who engaged
in the torture,
2521
01:51:21,125 --> 01:51:22,292
who defended the torture.
2522
01:51:22,375 --> 01:51:26,542
And this is who Obama identifies
as real patriots.
2523
01:51:26,626 --> 01:51:29,042
Gibney: The word "patriot"
struck a chord with me.
2524
01:51:29,125 --> 01:51:31,500
So long as you believe
you're a patriot,
2525
01:51:31,584 --> 01:51:33,834
do the ends
always justify the means?
2526
01:51:33,918 --> 01:51:35,876
And if we all believe that,
2527
01:51:35,959 --> 01:51:38,417
are we prepared
to abandon our principles
2528
01:51:38,500 --> 01:51:39,959
in order to defend them?
2529
01:51:42,709 --> 01:51:44,542
Jose Rodriguez
and James Mitchell
2530
01:51:44,626 --> 01:51:45,876
both live in Florida.
2531
01:51:45,959 --> 01:51:48,334
Mitchell's company
grossed $81 million
2532
01:51:48,417 --> 01:51:50,125
for his interrogation services.
2533
01:51:50,209 --> 01:51:52,959
Rodriguez became
an intelligence consultant
2534
01:51:53,042 --> 01:51:54,626
working for IBM.
2535
01:51:54,709 --> 01:51:56,751
He has a fondness for
Corvettes and Harleys
2536
01:51:56,834 --> 01:51:58,792
and owns
a 30-foot powerboat
2537
01:51:58,876 --> 01:52:01,375
called "Shaken, Not Stirred."
2538
01:52:01,459 --> 01:52:02,792
It's a great thing
about this government,
2539
01:52:02,876 --> 01:52:04,250
the only people
that ever stand up
2540
01:52:04,334 --> 01:52:06,626
and tell the truth are who,
intelligence officers,
2541
01:52:06,709 --> 01:52:08,876
because our culture is never
break faith with the truth.
2542
01:52:08,959 --> 01:52:11,500
We'll tell you, you don't have
to drag it out of us.
2543
01:52:21,500 --> 01:52:22,918
Mitchell: You're not
going to get me
2544
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:24,292
to say I think
it's torture.
2545
01:52:24,375 --> 01:52:25,918
You might as well
just quit.
2546
01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:28,334
If you want to think
it's torture, think
what you want to think.
2547
01:52:28,417 --> 01:52:30,584
I'm not in the business
of controlling your mind,
2548
01:52:30,667 --> 01:52:32,667
nor am I in the business
of trying to coerce you
2549
01:52:32,751 --> 01:52:34,584
into saying something
that you don't believe
2550
01:52:34,667 --> 01:52:36,876
or want to comment on.
2551
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:40,042
This was the least worse
of two bad choices.
2552
01:52:40,125 --> 01:52:41,751
Both choices suck.
2553
01:52:41,834 --> 01:52:43,876
Both choices are bad.
2554
01:52:43,959 --> 01:52:45,667
But on the one hand,
you have
2555
01:52:45,751 --> 01:52:47,292
thousands of dead Americans
2556
01:52:47,375 --> 01:52:48,667
and on the other hand,
you have
2557
01:52:48,751 --> 01:52:50,834
the temporary discomfort
of a terrorist.
2558
01:52:52,375 --> 01:52:55,167
I thought there was going to be
a major catastrophic attack
2559
01:52:55,250 --> 01:52:57,959
that was going to kill
millions of Americans.
2560
01:52:58,042 --> 01:52:59,250
And, uh...
2561
01:53:04,417 --> 01:53:07,459
I thought that
my government had asked me
2562
01:53:07,542 --> 01:53:09,751
to stop it.
2563
01:53:09,834 --> 01:53:13,125
And I felt responsible...
for doing that.
2564
01:53:13,209 --> 01:53:14,709
That's what I thought.
2565
01:53:20,876 --> 01:53:22,375
Gibney: From near
his home in Florida,
2566
01:53:22,459 --> 01:53:24,918
Mitchell can paddle
to the Gulf of Mexico.
2567
01:53:26,250 --> 01:53:27,542
From there,
it's a straight shot
2568
01:53:27,626 --> 01:53:29,626
to Cuba
and Guantanamo,
2569
01:53:29,709 --> 01:53:32,334
where Abu Zubaydah
lives out his days.
2570
01:53:32,417 --> 01:53:34,000
As its creators intended,
2571
01:53:34,083 --> 01:53:36,459
Gitmo is a kind of
nowhere land
2572
01:53:36,542 --> 01:53:38,709
outside of time and place.
2573
01:53:38,792 --> 01:53:42,167
The images you see here
were shot by me in 2006.
2574
01:53:42,250 --> 01:53:44,292
The government
won't permit me to return,
2575
01:53:44,375 --> 01:53:46,459
so I depend on others
to tell me
2576
01:53:46,542 --> 01:53:47,876
not much has changed.
2577
01:53:47,959 --> 01:53:51,334
Fast food,
first-run movies,
2578
01:53:51,417 --> 01:53:53,500
the gift shop
where I bought my T-shirt,
2579
01:53:53,584 --> 01:53:57,459
sporting a local joke
about interrogators.
2580
01:53:57,542 --> 01:53:59,834
After Thailand,
Abu Zubaydah would be sent
2581
01:53:59,918 --> 01:54:01,417
to black sites
in Poland,
2582
01:54:01,500 --> 01:54:03,292
Lithuania, and Morocco.
2583
01:54:03,375 --> 01:54:05,334
When he first landed
in Gitmo,
2584
01:54:05,417 --> 01:54:08,083
he was imprisoned
in the secret CIA unit
2585
01:54:08,167 --> 01:54:10,334
known as Strawberry Fields,
2586
01:54:10,417 --> 01:54:11,918
as in forever.
2587
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:15,042
♪ Strawberry fields forever ♪
2588
01:54:15,125 --> 01:54:17,250
Recently, along with
the 13 others
2589
01:54:17,334 --> 01:54:19,500
held in indefinite detention,
2590
01:54:19,584 --> 01:54:23,209
he was moved to
Guantanamo's Camp V.
2591
01:54:23,292 --> 01:54:26,375
No one will say what kind
of law governs Abu Zubaydah.
2592
01:54:26,459 --> 01:54:28,167
So he has two legal teams,
2593
01:54:28,250 --> 01:54:31,459
one civilian and one
for the military commissions.
2594
01:54:31,542 --> 01:54:33,751
His military lawyer,
Chantell Higgins,
2595
01:54:33,834 --> 01:54:35,167
sees him most often.
2596
01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:39,500
Zayn is
a colorful storyteller.
2597
01:54:40,292 --> 01:54:41,334
Very funny.
2598
01:54:41,417 --> 01:54:43,918
Always well-dressed.
Very particular.
2599
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:47,792
He's a sort of a...
2600
01:54:47,876 --> 01:54:50,626
how do I say it, a diva.
(laughs)
2601
01:54:53,209 --> 01:54:55,959
Gibney: Does he suffer
from some kind of PTSD?
2602
01:54:56,042 --> 01:54:58,125
I don't know how anyone
could have endured that
2603
01:54:58,209 --> 01:55:00,584
and not suffered
from PTSD.
2604
01:55:00,667 --> 01:55:03,125
I know that he has nightmares
about drowning.
2605
01:55:04,167 --> 01:55:05,751
Waking up and drowning.
2606
01:55:16,959 --> 01:55:18,918
Gibney: To what extent
does Abu Zubaydah remember
2607
01:55:19,000 --> 01:55:20,751
anything about James Mitchell?
2608
01:55:20,834 --> 01:55:22,834
Does he remember
who he was?
2609
01:55:22,918 --> 01:55:24,250
(sighs)
2610
01:55:25,918 --> 01:55:29,125
Uh, yeah, he remembers
very clearly who he was.
2611
01:55:30,584 --> 01:55:31,751
Yeah.
2612
01:55:31,834 --> 01:55:34,209
Gibney:
And does he understand
that he was the guy
2613
01:55:34,292 --> 01:55:36,042
who designed
these techniques?
2614
01:55:36,125 --> 01:55:37,250
He does.
2615
01:55:37,334 --> 01:55:39,792
I think all the detainees
understand that by now.
2616
01:55:42,125 --> 01:55:45,542
Rizzo: Abu Zubaydah was
the first high-level detainee.
2617
01:55:45,626 --> 01:55:47,125
But he's not
one of the ones
2618
01:55:47,209 --> 01:55:50,542
who have actually been charged
by the military commissions.
2619
01:55:50,626 --> 01:55:54,959
So his status is...
really permanent limbo.
2620
01:55:55,042 --> 01:55:56,709
I can't imagine
any US President
2621
01:55:56,792 --> 01:55:59,250
in any US administration
ever letting him go.
2622
01:55:59,334 --> 01:56:02,334
But what do you do
with him?
2623
01:56:02,417 --> 01:56:04,167
Lt. Col. Chantell Higgins:
In America,
we have this thing
2624
01:56:04,250 --> 01:56:06,292
called innocent
until proven guilty.
2625
01:56:06,375 --> 01:56:08,250
If we think they're
guilty of something
2626
01:56:08,334 --> 01:56:10,250
we should take them
to trial,
2627
01:56:10,334 --> 01:56:12,876
give them opportunity
to be heard,
2628
01:56:12,959 --> 01:56:16,167
sentence them accordingly,
and send them on their way.
2629
01:56:17,542 --> 01:56:20,709
It's just inhumane
2630
01:56:20,792 --> 01:56:24,125
to... detain someone...
2631
01:56:24,959 --> 01:56:27,209
and not give them rights.
2632
01:56:27,876 --> 01:56:28,876
Period.
2633
01:56:31,083 --> 01:56:32,667
Mora: Almost half
of the American public believes
2634
01:56:32,751 --> 01:56:35,042
that the use of torture
is acceptable.
2635
01:56:35,125 --> 01:56:37,709
There's growing acceptance
of the use of cruelty
2636
01:56:37,792 --> 01:56:39,000
as a tool
2637
01:56:39,083 --> 01:56:41,500
to address
social situations
2638
01:56:41,584 --> 01:56:43,667
or national security crises.
2639
01:56:43,751 --> 01:56:45,542
And I think in the right
combination of situations,
2640
01:56:45,626 --> 01:56:48,834
you have other individuals
who'll say,
2641
01:56:48,918 --> 01:56:51,250
"This is another tool
we should use again,"
2642
01:56:51,334 --> 01:56:53,667
and we'll go back to use it
despite all the reasons
2643
01:56:53,751 --> 01:56:56,042
why it shouldn't be
countenanced again.
2644
01:56:59,667 --> 01:57:01,334
Gibney:
For nearly 20 years,
2645
01:57:01,417 --> 01:57:04,042
Abu Zubaydah has been
in US custody.
2646
01:57:04,125 --> 01:57:06,375
In all that time,
the man with one eye
2647
01:57:06,459 --> 01:57:07,751
and one good leg
2648
01:57:07,834 --> 01:57:11,626
has remained
mostly incommunicado.
2649
01:57:11,709 --> 01:57:13,626
I can see some
of his drawings.
2650
01:57:13,709 --> 01:57:15,459
I can read censored letters,
2651
01:57:15,542 --> 01:57:17,542
and the briefs
of his lawyers.
2652
01:57:17,626 --> 01:57:19,375
But I cannot talk to him.
2653
01:57:19,459 --> 01:57:21,000
His voice has been kept silent,
2654
01:57:21,083 --> 01:57:23,250
just as the CIA promised.
2655
01:57:24,417 --> 01:57:26,125
He's the forever prisoner
2656
01:57:26,209 --> 01:57:27,709
meant to fade from memory
2657
01:57:27,792 --> 01:57:30,542
like old photographs
left in the sun.
2658
01:57:42,042 --> 01:57:43,792
Twenty years after 9/11,
2659
01:57:43,876 --> 01:57:45,542
I'm stirred to remember
the innocents
2660
01:57:45,626 --> 01:57:47,792
who died on that day.
2661
01:57:47,876 --> 01:57:50,000
But I'm also stirred
to remember the purpose
2662
01:57:50,083 --> 01:57:52,209
of that vicious attack.
2663
01:57:52,292 --> 01:57:53,792
It wasn't to win a war.
2664
01:57:53,876 --> 01:57:55,417
It was to provoke us
to abandon
2665
01:57:55,500 --> 01:57:59,250
the principles of democracy
we claim to live by.
2666
01:57:59,334 --> 01:58:01,626
The forever prisoner
is a living reminder
2667
01:58:01,709 --> 01:58:03,876
of one of the ideals
we abandoned:
2668
01:58:03,959 --> 01:58:06,167
equal justice
under the law.
2669
01:58:06,250 --> 01:58:07,709
As the saying goes,
2670
01:58:07,792 --> 01:58:10,500
there is no them,
there is only us.
2671
01:58:11,500 --> 01:58:13,167
If we believe in that idea,
2672
01:58:13,250 --> 01:58:15,959
how can we imprison a man
without charge
2673
01:58:16,042 --> 01:58:18,167
for the remainder of his life?
2674
01:58:18,250 --> 01:58:20,209
Not for what he did to us...
2675
01:58:20,292 --> 01:58:22,667
but for what
we did to him.
2676
01:58:23,751 --> 01:58:26,626
♪ ♪
2677
01:58:28,334 --> 01:58:31,417
♪ ♪