1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,935 [dramatic music playing] 2 00:00:04,938 --> 00:00:07,906 [Matt] I have vivid memories of this place 3 00:00:07,908 --> 00:00:11,510 that don't ever go away. 4 00:00:11,512 --> 00:00:14,246 Takes me back every time I drive by this location 5 00:00:14,248 --> 00:00:16,849 because I drive up and down 6 00:00:16,851 --> 00:00:20,352 at least two, three times a week. 7 00:00:20,354 --> 00:00:24,023 Thirty years ago, I came here with Ken, my dad. 8 00:00:24,025 --> 00:00:29,395 My dad had sent me downstairs to go wait in the truck. 9 00:00:29,397 --> 00:00:31,563 Unfortunately, I had to go to the bathroom 10 00:00:31,565 --> 00:00:33,332 and I held it as long as I could 11 00:00:33,334 --> 00:00:36,201 and I finally decided to go upstairs. 12 00:00:36,203 --> 00:00:37,936 If I would've never had to go in the bathroom, 13 00:00:37,938 --> 00:00:39,371 I would've never walked back upstairs 14 00:00:39,373 --> 00:00:41,240 and never seen anything. 15 00:00:41,242 --> 00:00:43,876 This was the first time I had ever seen a dead body 16 00:00:43,878 --> 00:00:46,612 that was not in a casket. 17 00:00:48,615 --> 00:00:51,617 That's something that I can never get out of my head. 18 00:00:51,619 --> 00:00:55,054 Every time I go to sleep, I picture things 19 00:00:55,056 --> 00:00:56,789 along these lines. 20 00:00:56,791 --> 00:00:59,825 [suspenseful music playing] 21 00:01:04,464 --> 00:01:08,100 [detective speaking] 22 00:01:08,102 --> 00:01:09,902 [Kenneth speaking] 23 00:01:09,904 --> 00:01:16,909 [detective speaking] 24 00:01:16,911 --> 00:01:20,012 [Kenneth speaking] 25 00:01:20,014 --> 00:01:25,384 The stuff he did was stuff 26 00:01:25,386 --> 00:01:26,819 that would give most people nightmares 27 00:01:26,821 --> 00:01:29,488 for the rest of their lives. 28 00:01:29,490 --> 00:01:31,356 There's lots of people that didn't believe me, 29 00:01:31,358 --> 00:01:33,192 lots of people thought I was joking. 30 00:01:33,194 --> 00:01:34,793 And they waited way too long 31 00:01:34,795 --> 00:01:38,330 and too many people got hurt after that. 32 00:01:39,966 --> 00:01:42,301 I wouldn't have believed the kid, either. 33 00:01:42,303 --> 00:01:45,003 But they should've. 34 00:01:50,677 --> 00:01:53,679 [dramatic music playing] 35 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,047 [Matt] I was born in Cleveland, 36 00:02:29,049 --> 00:02:30,516 given up for adoption. 37 00:02:30,518 --> 00:02:33,185 I was adopted at birth by my mom Cathy. 38 00:02:33,187 --> 00:02:34,887 When I turned about seven years old, 39 00:02:34,889 --> 00:02:37,256 she introduced me to the man she was planning to marry, 40 00:02:37,258 --> 00:02:38,557 and that was Ken. 41 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:42,961 Not long after, we were sitting at the kitchen table 42 00:02:42,963 --> 00:02:48,901 and I had heard some stories through church about Ken 43 00:02:48,903 --> 00:02:51,703 and that he wasn't the greatest person. 44 00:02:51,705 --> 00:02:53,138 Matt? 45 00:02:53,140 --> 00:02:55,541 Come sit down a minute. 46 00:02:55,543 --> 00:02:57,342 [Matt] My grandpa and my mom 47 00:02:57,344 --> 00:02:59,811 told me that Ken had went to prison. 48 00:02:59,813 --> 00:03:03,048 He had been convicted of a murder charge. 49 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:05,317 I was told that he had ran away from home 50 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:07,119 at 18 years old. 51 00:03:07,121 --> 00:03:11,323 And he had needed cash, found somebody, robbed him, 52 00:03:11,325 --> 00:03:14,426 the robbery went bad, and the gentleman 53 00:03:14,428 --> 00:03:16,461 that was robbed lost his life. 54 00:03:16,463 --> 00:03:19,064 It was a long time ago. 55 00:03:19,066 --> 00:03:21,300 He didn't mean to kill anyone 56 00:03:21,302 --> 00:03:23,669 and he's sorry for what he did. 57 00:03:26,506 --> 00:03:29,608 My grandpa said that Ken had made a bad choice 58 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:33,412 and that people make mistakes 59 00:03:33,414 --> 00:03:37,816 and that's why it was okay to give him a second chance. 60 00:03:37,818 --> 00:03:41,286 And we all have to learn how to forgive. 61 00:03:41,288 --> 00:03:43,822 Ken served his time, 15 years, 62 00:03:43,824 --> 00:03:46,291 just like anybody else, Ken deserves a second chance. 63 00:03:47,927 --> 00:03:52,331 And since he was out, then apparently, 64 00:03:52,333 --> 00:03:53,765 other people thought he deserved 65 00:03:53,767 --> 00:03:55,534 a second chance as well. 66 00:03:55,536 --> 00:03:58,437 - Do you understand? - Yes. 67 00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:01,139 So to me, being little for him to be out, 68 00:04:01,141 --> 00:04:03,041 then in my head, he had done something 69 00:04:03,043 --> 00:04:05,544 to deserve to be out. 70 00:04:05,546 --> 00:04:07,312 There's lots of times I don't think Ken 71 00:04:07,314 --> 00:04:09,181 should've ever got out of prison the first time. 72 00:04:09,183 --> 00:04:11,216 If he wouldn't have got out of prison the first time, 73 00:04:11,218 --> 00:04:15,988 there would've been a lot of people that were saved. 74 00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:19,024 [suspenseful music playing] 75 00:04:29,602 --> 00:04:34,306 This was the kitchen table at the 7th Street home, 76 00:04:34,308 --> 00:04:37,809 and he was actually teaching me 77 00:04:37,811 --> 00:04:40,679 how to play 500 rummy. 78 00:04:40,681 --> 00:04:42,381 This was the kitchen table we were sitting 79 00:04:42,383 --> 00:04:46,618 when I first remember 80 00:04:46,620 --> 00:04:49,454 getting choked. 81 00:04:49,456 --> 00:04:53,959 One of the first positive memories I have of Ken 82 00:04:53,961 --> 00:04:56,561 was the card games. 83 00:04:56,563 --> 00:05:01,166 But it didn't take long after meeting my dad 84 00:05:01,168 --> 00:05:02,868 for me to start seeing other sides of him 85 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:05,137 that not everybody saw. 86 00:05:08,107 --> 00:05:10,108 [dramatic music playing] 87 00:05:12,078 --> 00:05:13,679 One afternoon, we were sitting down 88 00:05:13,681 --> 00:05:16,114 at the kitchen table and he started to tell a story 89 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:19,618 about getting into a fight in prison. 90 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:21,186 So the next thing you know, 91 00:05:21,188 --> 00:05:23,355 I have three guys have me cornered. 92 00:05:23,357 --> 00:05:25,857 He had gotten jumped by three people 93 00:05:25,859 --> 00:05:27,926 and he used a broom handle to defend himself 94 00:05:27,928 --> 00:05:30,896 and killed those people while he was in prison. 95 00:05:30,898 --> 00:05:32,864 I laughed at him and thought it was kind of like, 96 00:05:32,866 --> 00:05:34,266 "Yeah, yeah, right." 97 00:05:34,268 --> 00:05:37,336 And then the next thing I know, 98 00:05:37,338 --> 00:05:38,970 I got a hand around my throat. 99 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,774 Are you calling me a liar? 100 00:05:42,776 --> 00:05:44,843 He choked me and said, "Don't ever call me a liar." 101 00:05:44,845 --> 00:05:47,279 And I do remember hearing that over and over, 102 00:05:47,281 --> 00:05:48,714 "Don't call me a liar." 103 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:53,051 My mom made him stop and he never touched me 104 00:05:53,053 --> 00:05:54,586 like that ever again. 105 00:05:54,588 --> 00:05:56,955 God, what are you doing, Ken? 106 00:05:56,957 --> 00:05:58,824 Are you crazy? 107 00:06:01,027 --> 00:06:02,461 He never laid his hands on me, 108 00:06:02,463 --> 00:06:04,996 but I've also made sure to never insinuate 109 00:06:04,998 --> 00:06:07,499 or call him a liar, whether I believed him or not. 110 00:06:07,501 --> 00:06:09,301 He liked to tell a lot of stories. 111 00:06:09,303 --> 00:06:14,406 And sometimes the stories became very wild. 112 00:06:14,408 --> 00:06:16,308 And I just rather I believed the story, 113 00:06:16,310 --> 00:06:18,243 didn't believe the story. 114 00:06:18,245 --> 00:06:21,179 I've never-never said I didn't believe him. 115 00:06:21,181 --> 00:06:24,316 Because I knew how he would react if I called him a liar. 116 00:06:26,386 --> 00:06:29,388 [suspenseful music playing] 117 00:06:34,961 --> 00:06:36,495 [Matt] He loved to teach me everything. 118 00:06:36,497 --> 00:06:38,930 I mean, he taught me how to hunt, trap, uh, 119 00:06:38,932 --> 00:06:41,600 shoot guns, he taught me how to do plumbing, electric, 120 00:06:41,602 --> 00:06:44,369 construction, he taught me everything 121 00:06:44,371 --> 00:06:47,839 that he could possibly teach me. 122 00:06:47,841 --> 00:06:50,609 Ken always felt that hunting and trapping was important. 123 00:06:50,611 --> 00:06:53,478 He, uh, had built a trapping room 124 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,347 on the side of our garage 125 00:06:55,349 --> 00:06:57,783 and he hung the animals in the back 126 00:06:57,785 --> 00:07:00,886 and this was the first time I had ever went actually 127 00:07:00,888 --> 00:07:03,488 with him to trap beaver. 128 00:07:03,490 --> 00:07:07,225 And this was one of the beavers that we brought back. 129 00:07:07,227 --> 00:07:09,127 Sometimes going in the room bothered me 130 00:07:09,129 --> 00:07:11,997 seeing some of the animals just hanging there. 131 00:07:11,999 --> 00:07:14,566 There was always animals either hanging in there 132 00:07:14,568 --> 00:07:16,334 or caged in there. 133 00:07:16,336 --> 00:07:17,702 This photo was taken about a year 134 00:07:17,704 --> 00:07:20,405 after the incident with the possum. 135 00:07:23,543 --> 00:07:24,843 We were out trapping one day 136 00:07:24,845 --> 00:07:27,145 and there was a very large possum 137 00:07:27,147 --> 00:07:29,347 that had its leg stuck in a trap. 138 00:07:29,349 --> 00:07:33,385 And he had his pistol. 139 00:07:33,387 --> 00:07:35,554 He's still alive. 140 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:37,923 Here. Give me the stick. 141 00:07:37,925 --> 00:07:39,658 But instead of just shooting the animal 142 00:07:39,660 --> 00:07:41,193 that was in the trap that day, 143 00:07:41,195 --> 00:07:45,697 he decided to take his little wooden... 144 00:07:45,699 --> 00:07:47,732 He called it his "beater" but it's just basically 145 00:07:47,734 --> 00:07:50,502 a little wooden club. 146 00:07:50,504 --> 00:07:52,170 He smacked the possum the first time 147 00:07:52,172 --> 00:07:56,241 and he kind of laughed because it didn't die. 148 00:07:56,243 --> 00:07:59,478 He just continued to hit it over 149 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,782 and then he'd wait and he'd do it again. 150 00:08:03,784 --> 00:08:07,586 And it would either move or twitch or try to stand up 151 00:08:07,588 --> 00:08:10,355 and it would breathe, and he'd hit it again, 152 00:08:10,357 --> 00:08:12,290 and he'd back away again, and he'd laugh, 153 00:08:12,292 --> 00:08:14,926 and he's like, "This thing won't... this thing won't die." 154 00:08:14,928 --> 00:08:20,866 Look, he's fighting. He's fighting. [laughs] 155 00:08:20,868 --> 00:08:22,300 The entire time he's hitting the possum, 156 00:08:22,302 --> 00:08:23,301 he looked demented. 157 00:08:23,303 --> 00:08:24,736 His eyes were blank. 158 00:08:24,738 --> 00:08:27,372 He had a really weird smile on his face. 159 00:08:27,374 --> 00:08:29,641 I would say it was a sadistic smile. 160 00:08:29,643 --> 00:08:31,977 I've never seen him smile like that before. 161 00:08:31,979 --> 00:08:35,947 [laughs] 162 00:08:35,949 --> 00:08:38,250 I'd seen him kill animals before 163 00:08:38,252 --> 00:08:41,653 but that possum was just... I don't know, 164 00:08:41,655 --> 00:08:44,422 he looked like he was enjoying it. 165 00:08:44,424 --> 00:08:48,026 It had to be five, ten minutes 166 00:08:48,028 --> 00:08:51,463 when it could've just been ended in a matter of seconds. 167 00:08:51,465 --> 00:08:52,998 Let's go. 168 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,566 Once the possum was finally dead, 169 00:08:54,568 --> 00:08:56,401 he handed it to me and I had to carry it 170 00:08:56,403 --> 00:08:57,969 back to the truck. 171 00:08:57,971 --> 00:09:00,171 Let's go. 172 00:09:00,173 --> 00:09:03,808 [Matt] It was upsetting. 173 00:09:03,810 --> 00:09:06,044 I had never seen him like that before. 174 00:09:06,046 --> 00:09:08,980 And I never understood it. 175 00:09:08,982 --> 00:09:11,716 But as I thought back about it, I thought, 176 00:09:11,718 --> 00:09:14,486 you know, he had told me the story at the kitchen table 177 00:09:14,488 --> 00:09:17,355 about beating people with a broom handle. 178 00:09:17,357 --> 00:09:20,225 And I saw him beat a possum with, uh, 179 00:09:20,227 --> 00:09:22,494 his little beater, as he called it. 180 00:09:22,496 --> 00:09:24,596 That was the first time in my memory 181 00:09:24,598 --> 00:09:27,232 that I thought maybe that story was completely true. 182 00:09:29,201 --> 00:09:33,838 I started to believe his stories more after that one. 183 00:09:37,310 --> 00:09:40,345 [suspenseful music playing] 184 00:09:44,250 --> 00:09:45,884 Ken always had guns, 185 00:09:45,886 --> 00:09:48,353 but he wasn't allowed to own a gun 186 00:09:48,355 --> 00:09:51,656 being that he was in prison and he was a felon. 187 00:09:51,658 --> 00:09:53,325 It's why he always had them hidden. 188 00:09:53,327 --> 00:09:56,161 Ken had guns hidden under a fish tank he made. 189 00:09:56,163 --> 00:09:57,696 He had an old vintage coke machine 190 00:09:57,698 --> 00:09:59,331 that had guns hidden in it. 191 00:09:59,333 --> 00:10:02,934 Guns under the bed, guns in his trucks. 192 00:10:02,936 --> 00:10:06,271 His favorite gun was a 9x18 9mm. 193 00:10:06,273 --> 00:10:08,306 That gun traveled with him everywhere. 194 00:10:08,308 --> 00:10:10,442 I remember the first time he actually cleaned his gun 195 00:10:10,444 --> 00:10:12,877 in front of me. 196 00:10:12,879 --> 00:10:14,279 Come in. 197 00:10:14,281 --> 00:10:15,880 He would wipe off each round 198 00:10:15,882 --> 00:10:19,184 as he put it in the clip, he would have gloves on. 199 00:10:19,186 --> 00:10:20,952 Here. 200 00:10:20,954 --> 00:10:23,121 [Matt] So, his prints weren't on the bullets. 201 00:10:23,123 --> 00:10:24,689 He told me every time I touched a gun 202 00:10:24,691 --> 00:10:26,825 to make sure I wiped it off completely. 203 00:10:26,827 --> 00:10:30,195 You never wanna leave your prints on a weapon. 204 00:10:30,197 --> 00:10:32,497 And I was fascinated because I was listening 205 00:10:32,499 --> 00:10:34,265 to him tell stories. 206 00:10:34,267 --> 00:10:37,502 Even when you got gloves, you can't take that chance. 207 00:10:37,504 --> 00:10:39,471 [Matt] He started to tell me about his past 208 00:10:39,473 --> 00:10:41,039 and stuff that he had done, 209 00:10:41,041 --> 00:10:43,475 being a problem solver was his words for it. 210 00:10:43,477 --> 00:10:47,012 In Ken's own words, a problem solver was a hitman. 211 00:10:47,014 --> 00:10:49,848 And when people ask me to solve their problems, 212 00:10:49,850 --> 00:10:52,717 this is the one I use. 213 00:10:52,719 --> 00:10:56,554 And he claimed to be a problem solver 214 00:10:56,556 --> 00:10:59,457 for a few families. 215 00:10:59,459 --> 00:11:01,426 But there are rules. 216 00:11:01,428 --> 00:11:03,695 [Matt] There were many jobs that he claimed to have done, 217 00:11:03,697 --> 00:11:06,831 many situations that he's claimed to have solved. 218 00:11:06,833 --> 00:11:10,168 I can think of probably 15 stories at least. 219 00:11:10,170 --> 00:11:11,836 If he said he had a problem to take care of, 220 00:11:11,838 --> 00:11:12,837 he would disappear. 221 00:11:12,839 --> 00:11:14,439 He'd be gone for a few days. 222 00:11:14,441 --> 00:11:16,241 He'd come back a little bit different. 223 00:11:16,243 --> 00:11:18,510 He'd be a little more closed off. 224 00:11:18,512 --> 00:11:20,612 Now get outta here. 225 00:11:20,614 --> 00:11:22,714 I'll be back in a few weeks. 226 00:11:22,716 --> 00:11:25,183 [Matt] I had seen movies that have had hitmen, 227 00:11:25,185 --> 00:11:29,554 so I had the basic idea of what a hitman was. 228 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,257 I remember back then when I was little, 229 00:11:32,259 --> 00:11:34,225 I wasn't a hundred percent sure. 230 00:11:34,227 --> 00:11:39,764 As I got older, I completely believed that he did that. 231 00:11:39,766 --> 00:11:42,100 He was a killer. 232 00:11:44,203 --> 00:11:46,638 [dramatic music playing] 233 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,173 [Matt] When I first met Ken, we used to go 234 00:11:48,175 --> 00:11:49,541 to garage sales all the time. 235 00:11:49,543 --> 00:11:51,409 If there was a garage sale, he'd stop. 236 00:11:51,411 --> 00:11:52,644 Because he always wanted to see 237 00:11:52,646 --> 00:11:55,580 what he could find and make money. 238 00:11:55,582 --> 00:11:57,415 One afternoon, we stopped at a yard sale 239 00:11:57,417 --> 00:12:01,920 and there was a drafting table, drawing table. 240 00:12:01,922 --> 00:12:03,855 I love to color, I love to draw. 241 00:12:03,857 --> 00:12:06,224 Ken, check this out. 242 00:12:06,226 --> 00:12:07,625 When I saw the drafting table, 243 00:12:07,627 --> 00:12:09,427 I wanted it more than anything. 244 00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:11,096 I begged for it. 245 00:12:11,098 --> 00:12:12,864 Can I get it, please? 246 00:12:12,866 --> 00:12:14,699 Let me ask the lady. 247 00:12:14,701 --> 00:12:18,069 And I remember there was a lady that was there, 248 00:12:18,071 --> 00:12:19,337 he started to negotiate with her 249 00:12:19,339 --> 00:12:21,606 at that point for the table. 250 00:12:21,608 --> 00:12:22,774 How much for that table? 251 00:12:22,776 --> 00:12:24,375 Uh, that table there is $85. 252 00:12:24,377 --> 00:12:25,777 [Matt] He kept trying to get it 253 00:12:25,779 --> 00:12:27,078 but he didn't wanna pay her price. 254 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,780 I'll give you $40 for it. 255 00:12:28,782 --> 00:12:31,516 [Matt] His favorite thing was to negotiate. 256 00:12:31,518 --> 00:12:34,419 And he couldn't negotiate it. 257 00:12:34,421 --> 00:12:36,187 Come on. 258 00:12:36,189 --> 00:12:37,889 But Ken... 259 00:12:37,891 --> 00:12:39,958 I said, let's go, now. 260 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,127 [Matt] When we went to leave, he was very... 261 00:12:42,129 --> 00:12:43,862 He sort of had been livid 262 00:12:43,864 --> 00:12:46,264 that he couldn't get it for what he wanted it for. 263 00:12:46,266 --> 00:12:50,034 He kept saying, "Oh, I'll get it" 264 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:51,703 or "I'll get you one." 265 00:12:51,705 --> 00:12:54,939 He kept reassuring me that I'd get it. 266 00:12:54,941 --> 00:12:57,776 He was angry. 267 00:12:57,778 --> 00:12:59,677 We left the yard sale. 268 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,446 And he took me home, dropped me off, 269 00:13:01,448 --> 00:13:02,781 and he left me there. 270 00:13:08,154 --> 00:13:10,355 He left me at home for about an hour. 271 00:13:10,357 --> 00:13:12,657 He came back and picked me back up. 272 00:13:12,659 --> 00:13:14,592 And then we went back to the garage sale, 273 00:13:14,594 --> 00:13:17,095 the drafting table was already outside the garage 274 00:13:17,097 --> 00:13:19,931 which wasn't where it was when we were there earlier. 275 00:13:19,933 --> 00:13:22,433 And he said that it was mine. 276 00:13:22,435 --> 00:13:23,735 Wait here. 277 00:13:23,737 --> 00:13:25,637 I'm going to get the table. 278 00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:27,505 There was nobody else at the garage sale. 279 00:13:27,507 --> 00:13:29,808 I did not see the woman at the garage sale any longer. 280 00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:32,277 I thought he went back and I thought that, maybe, 281 00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:35,446 he went over there to negotiate and got it for me. 282 00:13:35,448 --> 00:13:37,015 He is persistent, 283 00:13:37,017 --> 00:13:39,250 so I didn't think anything of it. 284 00:13:39,252 --> 00:13:40,985 Hurry up. Come help me. Hurry up. 285 00:13:40,987 --> 00:13:42,487 [Matt] The only change I noticed in Ken 286 00:13:42,489 --> 00:13:43,822 when we went back would be the fact 287 00:13:43,824 --> 00:13:45,156 that he was in a hurry. 288 00:13:45,158 --> 00:13:46,591 As soon as he came out of the garage, 289 00:13:46,593 --> 00:13:47,859 it was, you know, it's time to go, 290 00:13:47,861 --> 00:13:49,127 we gotta go, let's load it. 291 00:13:49,129 --> 00:13:50,662 And we didn't even strap it down, 292 00:13:50,664 --> 00:13:53,131 which we always strap stuff down. 293 00:13:53,133 --> 00:13:55,867 We load the drafting table up and we left. 294 00:13:55,869 --> 00:13:57,869 And I remember when he drove home, 295 00:13:57,871 --> 00:14:00,405 he drove home a different way than we drove the first time. 296 00:14:03,075 --> 00:14:05,143 It was in a matter of a couple days, 297 00:14:05,145 --> 00:14:08,213 the cops were at our door. 298 00:14:08,215 --> 00:14:11,916 And they're questioning him about somebody dying 299 00:14:13,786 --> 00:14:18,323 because somebody recognized the car at the house. 300 00:14:18,325 --> 00:14:20,024 That woman was dead. 301 00:14:20,026 --> 00:14:21,893 I didn't know who until later on. 302 00:14:21,895 --> 00:14:23,661 It might have been couple years 303 00:14:23,663 --> 00:14:28,867 before I realized that the two were connected. 304 00:14:28,869 --> 00:14:32,837 Looking back now, I know he's the one that did it. 305 00:14:32,839 --> 00:14:35,139 And I know the cops know he did it. 306 00:14:35,141 --> 00:14:38,543 But the cops can't prove it. 307 00:14:38,545 --> 00:14:41,512 I was only at home, I mean, at the most an hour 308 00:14:41,514 --> 00:14:44,182 and somewhere in that hour window, 309 00:14:44,184 --> 00:14:46,284 I believe she lost her life. 310 00:14:50,723 --> 00:14:53,157 I feel that me asking for the table 311 00:14:53,159 --> 00:14:55,126 is what caused her her life. 312 00:14:55,128 --> 00:14:59,330 And that's, you know, that's something 313 00:14:59,332 --> 00:15:03,801 that I have lived with for, what, 30 some years. 314 00:15:03,803 --> 00:15:06,070 I wanna say I'm sorry. 315 00:15:06,072 --> 00:15:09,307 I feel totally responsible, totally. 316 00:15:09,309 --> 00:15:13,144 One hundred percent, if I wouldn't have said it, 317 00:15:13,146 --> 00:15:15,713 then that wouldn't have happened. 318 00:15:15,715 --> 00:15:18,716 And I don't think I've ever admitted that out loud. 319 00:15:18,718 --> 00:15:21,753 [suspenseful music playing] 320 00:15:25,858 --> 00:15:28,092 Ken always did odd jobs for everybody. 321 00:15:28,094 --> 00:15:30,161 He'd do everything from plumbing to work on bars, 322 00:15:30,163 --> 00:15:33,765 to do roofs, built garages, ripped stuff down, 323 00:15:33,767 --> 00:15:35,700 moved people. 324 00:15:35,702 --> 00:15:39,304 He often brought me along just to help him out. 325 00:15:39,306 --> 00:15:42,240 I was 12, maybe 13 years old, 326 00:15:42,242 --> 00:15:43,775 Ken took me along to another job. 327 00:15:43,777 --> 00:15:46,945 This time, we were helping a friend of his, Patty, 328 00:15:46,947 --> 00:15:49,647 move some furniture from one apartment to another. 329 00:15:49,649 --> 00:15:51,883 Ken was the maintenance man for that building. 330 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:54,986 We had taken some stuff up already, and Ken says, 331 00:15:54,988 --> 00:15:57,155 "Go ahead and wait in the car. I'll be down in a minute. 332 00:15:57,157 --> 00:15:59,324 And we'll get finished up." 333 00:15:59,326 --> 00:16:01,659 This looks like the last of it. 334 00:16:01,661 --> 00:16:03,795 I went down in the car and sat there. 335 00:16:03,797 --> 00:16:05,496 Five, maybe ten minutes, 336 00:16:05,498 --> 00:16:07,865 I ended up having to go to the bathroom. 337 00:16:07,867 --> 00:16:12,670 So I got out of the truck, which I was told not to do. 338 00:16:12,672 --> 00:16:15,640 And I walked up the steps to the new apartment, 339 00:16:15,642 --> 00:16:17,208 I turned right to go in the door, 340 00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:21,612 I turned the door handle and I saw her laying there, 341 00:16:21,614 --> 00:16:23,081 I saw her bloody and naked. 342 00:16:25,884 --> 00:16:27,385 I knew she was dead but I didn't know 343 00:16:27,387 --> 00:16:29,687 what had happened. 344 00:16:29,689 --> 00:16:34,792 I just seen her ten, twenty minutes earlier. 345 00:16:34,794 --> 00:16:36,361 I tried to block this memory out 346 00:16:36,363 --> 00:16:38,429 as much as possible through the years. 347 00:16:38,431 --> 00:16:42,300 But I remember, I screamed. 348 00:16:42,302 --> 00:16:44,335 I screamed and screamed. 349 00:16:44,337 --> 00:16:46,104 [suspenseful music playing] 350 00:16:46,106 --> 00:16:47,205 He put his hand over my mouth 351 00:16:47,207 --> 00:16:48,773 and he forced me down the steps. 352 00:16:48,775 --> 00:16:50,341 And my feet were barely touching the steps 353 00:16:50,343 --> 00:16:51,809 as I was going down them. 354 00:16:51,811 --> 00:16:53,845 He had got me out as fast as possible. 355 00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:55,279 What's going on? 356 00:16:55,281 --> 00:16:57,115 [Matt] I kept asking what happened. 357 00:16:57,117 --> 00:17:00,251 And I was told there was an accident. 358 00:17:00,253 --> 00:17:01,686 That's all I was ever told. 359 00:17:01,688 --> 00:17:03,388 You understand? 360 00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:05,490 [Matt] I was told to say I was never there. 361 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,094 [suspenseful music playing] 362 00:17:10,096 --> 00:17:12,130 [Matt] As soon as I got home, I told my mom. 363 00:17:12,132 --> 00:17:14,332 I thought that my mom believed it. 364 00:17:14,334 --> 00:17:17,201 I think my mom was blinded to everything going on. 365 00:17:17,203 --> 00:17:18,736 My mom still tells me to this day 366 00:17:18,738 --> 00:17:21,773 that if she realized what was going on, 367 00:17:21,775 --> 00:17:25,076 she would have stopped it a long time ago. 368 00:17:25,078 --> 00:17:27,278 I remember being told that I pretty much 369 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,547 didn't see what I saw. 370 00:17:29,549 --> 00:17:31,916 The cops were there to talk to him that day. 371 00:17:31,918 --> 00:17:33,384 The cops asked me if I was there. 372 00:17:33,386 --> 00:17:35,420 And I was told to tell them, "No." 373 00:17:35,422 --> 00:17:37,522 If I would have said "Yes", 374 00:17:37,524 --> 00:17:40,191 maybe the cops would have found a way to question me. 375 00:17:40,193 --> 00:17:42,126 But all of a sudden, it was dropped. 376 00:17:42,128 --> 00:17:46,564 I mean, they didn't question him anymore. 377 00:17:46,566 --> 00:17:49,267 Once again, there was no evidence. 378 00:17:54,239 --> 00:17:55,840 Between the police releasing him, 379 00:17:55,842 --> 00:17:57,442 between everybody telling me that, you know, 380 00:17:57,444 --> 00:17:59,444 you didn't see it, you weren't there, 381 00:17:59,446 --> 00:18:00,912 I started to doubt what I saw. 382 00:18:00,914 --> 00:18:02,447 I'm, like, "What did I really... 383 00:18:02,449 --> 00:18:05,416 Did I really see that?" 384 00:18:05,418 --> 00:18:06,951 And every time that the cops do show up, 385 00:18:06,953 --> 00:18:09,287 they question him and let him go, 386 00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:12,256 maybe I'm the one that was seeing it wrong. 387 00:18:12,258 --> 00:18:15,259 Rationalizing what I saw, I kept trying to tell myself 388 00:18:15,261 --> 00:18:17,695 that it was, like, maybe she fell, it was an accident. 389 00:18:17,697 --> 00:18:19,197 When she was getting out of the shower, 390 00:18:19,199 --> 00:18:22,133 she fell and got hurt and he laid her there. 391 00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:24,502 I doubted myself for a very long time. 392 00:18:29,675 --> 00:18:32,310 The yellowish tan brick building behind me 393 00:18:32,312 --> 00:18:36,080 is where Patricia was killed. 394 00:18:36,082 --> 00:18:38,082 She didn't deserve what Ken did to her. 395 00:18:38,084 --> 00:18:40,818 She was one of the nicest women that I've ever met. 396 00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:42,487 I was joking around with her 397 00:18:42,489 --> 00:18:43,688 on the first trip up the stairs, 398 00:18:43,690 --> 00:18:45,423 everything seemed to be fine. 399 00:18:45,425 --> 00:18:49,861 And next time I walked up, she was just lying there. 400 00:18:49,863 --> 00:18:51,662 [suspenseful music playing] 401 00:18:51,664 --> 00:18:53,931 We came out the open door right there, 402 00:18:53,933 --> 00:18:56,367 to the left of the electric meters. 403 00:18:56,369 --> 00:18:59,637 And we got into the vehicle right here in the middle 404 00:18:59,639 --> 00:19:01,305 of the... What would have been in the middle 405 00:19:01,307 --> 00:19:04,976 of the white brick building and we left. 406 00:19:04,978 --> 00:19:06,978 I believe what happened had to have been quick. 407 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:10,982 At least I... I hope it was quick. 408 00:19:10,984 --> 00:19:12,717 I hope that it wasn't drawn out. 409 00:19:12,719 --> 00:19:15,920 And I hope she didn't lay there when he took me away 410 00:19:15,922 --> 00:19:19,991 and potentially suffer. 411 00:19:19,993 --> 00:19:22,927 I believe he strangled her and I believe he cut her, 412 00:19:22,929 --> 00:19:26,330 but I was turned around so quickly. 413 00:19:26,332 --> 00:19:29,867 I mean, I have somewhat of a vision in my head 414 00:19:29,869 --> 00:19:32,970 of what I saw but I was told for a long time 415 00:19:32,972 --> 00:19:35,139 that I didn't see what I saw. 416 00:19:35,141 --> 00:19:37,842 He just kept saying that there was an accident 417 00:19:37,844 --> 00:19:40,711 and we had to get out. 418 00:19:40,713 --> 00:19:45,349 I had just seen her, everything was fine moments before, 419 00:19:45,351 --> 00:19:47,018 now you're naked in the middle of the floor. 420 00:19:47,020 --> 00:19:52,089 That's not... that's not an accident. 421 00:19:56,028 --> 00:19:57,295 [suspenseful music playing] 422 00:19:57,297 --> 00:19:58,963 [Matt] Ken did a lot of home improvement jobs. 423 00:19:58,965 --> 00:20:02,066 He also installed security systems. 424 00:20:02,068 --> 00:20:04,869 And Ken had previously installed an alarm system 425 00:20:04,871 --> 00:20:07,438 on a home and he told me I needed to come with him 426 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,907 to help him fix a problem that they were having 427 00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:11,876 with this alarm. 428 00:20:11,878 --> 00:20:15,880 We showed up and the woman that lived there was... 429 00:20:15,882 --> 00:20:17,882 Said she was getting ready to make cookies. 430 00:20:17,884 --> 00:20:21,219 We were working on the alarm system. 431 00:20:21,221 --> 00:20:23,120 Ken seemed, actually, relatively happy. 432 00:20:23,122 --> 00:20:24,922 I mean, I didn't see any issues. 433 00:20:24,924 --> 00:20:26,924 I didn't see anything wrong. 434 00:20:26,926 --> 00:20:29,393 I was in the bedroom. 435 00:20:29,395 --> 00:20:34,131 He was in the living room, dining room area. 436 00:20:34,133 --> 00:20:35,399 [gunshot] 437 00:20:37,169 --> 00:20:41,772 And I heard a very loud, pop, bang, 438 00:20:41,774 --> 00:20:44,442 very loud noise, like, extremely loud. 439 00:20:44,444 --> 00:20:46,043 And I was like, "Hey, Dad, what was that?" 440 00:20:46,045 --> 00:20:48,045 I was like, "Are you all right?" 441 00:20:48,047 --> 00:20:50,982 And he answers back, "I knocked something over and I broke it." 442 00:20:50,984 --> 00:20:52,850 He was like, "I'll tell you when we get outside." 443 00:20:52,852 --> 00:20:54,652 [Kenneth] Keep doing what you are doing. 444 00:20:54,654 --> 00:20:56,687 [Matt] He was, like, stay there and I'll get done. 445 00:20:56,689 --> 00:20:59,023 He finished fixing the thing to the wall. 446 00:20:59,025 --> 00:21:01,993 We hooked the wire up and we finished the alarm system 447 00:21:01,995 --> 00:21:04,195 and we went to leave. 448 00:21:04,197 --> 00:21:06,230 I walked by the room and you could see 449 00:21:06,232 --> 00:21:09,967 into the living room, she was in the living room 450 00:21:09,969 --> 00:21:13,771 when we left, on the couch, ice pack on her forehead. 451 00:21:13,773 --> 00:21:15,273 Don't wake her. 452 00:21:15,275 --> 00:21:16,941 [Matt] I asked him what was going on. 453 00:21:16,943 --> 00:21:19,176 She's not feeling well. She's taking a nap. 454 00:21:19,178 --> 00:21:21,012 He said, the woman had a headache 455 00:21:21,014 --> 00:21:22,346 and went to lie down. 456 00:21:22,348 --> 00:21:24,048 He had helped her make an ice pack. 457 00:21:24,050 --> 00:21:25,950 Here, take this. 458 00:21:25,952 --> 00:21:28,319 [Matt] He handed me his... It was his blue handkerchief 459 00:21:28,321 --> 00:21:29,520 that he always carried. 460 00:21:29,522 --> 00:21:31,122 He had me wipe off the door handle, 461 00:21:31,124 --> 00:21:33,124 the alarm panel, the inside and outside of the door 462 00:21:33,126 --> 00:21:34,625 as we carried everything out, 463 00:21:34,627 --> 00:21:37,128 which I thought was, kinda, weird. 464 00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:39,397 He's like, "When you close the door, use your rag." 465 00:21:39,399 --> 00:21:42,967 He's like, "We don't wanna leave dirt marks." 466 00:21:42,969 --> 00:21:44,635 He made sure I was the one that wiped it off 467 00:21:44,637 --> 00:21:46,704 and I set the alarm and I closed the door 468 00:21:46,706 --> 00:21:49,173 and then we left. 469 00:21:49,175 --> 00:21:51,242 That was the weird part, 470 00:21:51,244 --> 00:21:53,210 was why would we set the alarm 471 00:21:53,212 --> 00:21:54,879 with her in the house? 472 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:02,687 Within a matter of two days, I had heard it on the radio, 473 00:22:02,689 --> 00:22:06,057 I had heard she had died, I had heard she got shot. 474 00:22:06,059 --> 00:22:08,392 Apparently her husband came home and didn't realize 475 00:22:08,394 --> 00:22:11,796 that she was deceased at the time, 476 00:22:11,798 --> 00:22:13,831 thought she was just lying on the couch with headache 477 00:22:13,833 --> 00:22:17,468 and it took him a while to realize that she was gone. 478 00:22:20,605 --> 00:22:23,607 [suspenseful music playing] 479 00:22:29,214 --> 00:22:30,915 Early the next day, 480 00:22:30,917 --> 00:22:34,418 once again the police were at our door. 481 00:22:34,420 --> 00:22:36,253 Then it started to click. 482 00:22:36,255 --> 00:22:39,390 And I started to realize, 483 00:22:39,392 --> 00:22:42,893 "Hey, you know, something is going on." 484 00:22:42,895 --> 00:22:46,197 But once again, nobody believed me. 485 00:22:46,199 --> 00:22:49,166 I mentioned it to a therapist that I had had. 486 00:22:49,168 --> 00:22:51,369 My therapist pretty much told me 487 00:22:51,371 --> 00:22:53,838 that I was exaggerating, 488 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,940 that I didn't know what I was talking about, 489 00:22:55,942 --> 00:22:58,409 which seemed to always be every adult's answer. 490 00:22:58,411 --> 00:23:00,177 There's lots of people that didn't believe me. 491 00:23:00,179 --> 00:23:03,647 Lots of people thought I was joking. 492 00:23:03,649 --> 00:23:06,517 And I told my mom that I thought he did it. 493 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:09,320 And she thought I was exaggerating. 494 00:23:12,357 --> 00:23:14,325 [suspenseful music playing] 495 00:23:14,327 --> 00:23:16,193 [Matt] I also talked to Ken and I asked him 496 00:23:16,195 --> 00:23:18,529 why this kept going on. 497 00:23:18,531 --> 00:23:23,234 And his response was, "Oh, it's just BS. 498 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:24,935 Every time that there's a murder in Canton 499 00:23:24,937 --> 00:23:26,170 they come to me. 500 00:23:26,172 --> 00:23:27,905 I'm freshly out of jail." 501 00:23:27,907 --> 00:23:29,106 And when he said that, I'm like, 502 00:23:29,108 --> 00:23:30,841 "Okay, well, maybe." 503 00:23:30,843 --> 00:23:32,810 You know, I wanted to believe him. 504 00:23:32,812 --> 00:23:34,311 And I didn't wanna think he was capable 505 00:23:34,313 --> 00:23:36,046 of something like that. 506 00:23:36,048 --> 00:23:37,615 Are you okay? 507 00:23:37,617 --> 00:23:40,418 You got nothing to worry about. 508 00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:43,154 Every few years, the cops were at my house. 509 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:45,122 Every few years, he was accused 510 00:23:45,124 --> 00:23:48,659 to murdering somebody, nothing ever happened. 511 00:23:48,661 --> 00:23:51,896 If they had any evidence, they would have arrested him. 512 00:23:51,898 --> 00:23:53,931 But they never arrested him. 513 00:23:53,933 --> 00:23:55,366 If the cops didn't think he did it, 514 00:23:55,368 --> 00:23:57,168 then why should I think he did it? 515 00:23:57,170 --> 00:24:01,839 Then I heard that the husband got questioned. 516 00:24:01,841 --> 00:24:03,841 People were saying, "Oh, it was the husband." 517 00:24:03,843 --> 00:24:05,976 I thought, "Well, maybe the husband came home 518 00:24:05,978 --> 00:24:08,646 and they got into a fight." 519 00:24:08,648 --> 00:24:14,051 So I, once again, tried to, in my head, brush it off. 520 00:24:16,421 --> 00:24:19,423 [suspenseful music playing] 521 00:24:27,332 --> 00:24:31,202 A few years after the last incident, 522 00:24:31,204 --> 00:24:35,573 Ken got into an altercation with a friend/business partner 523 00:24:35,575 --> 00:24:39,510 and it wound him back up in prison for about five years. 524 00:24:39,512 --> 00:24:40,978 By the time Ken got out of the prison, 525 00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:42,713 my life had changed a lot. 526 00:24:42,715 --> 00:24:44,582 Him and my mom were divorced. 527 00:24:44,584 --> 00:24:46,884 I was already planning on getting married. 528 00:24:46,886 --> 00:24:49,119 Before I met my wife, I had two children 529 00:24:49,121 --> 00:24:51,589 with a prior relationship. 530 00:24:51,591 --> 00:24:55,159 For years, I had been in a really nasty battle 531 00:24:55,161 --> 00:24:58,562 over custody of my two oldest children. 532 00:24:58,564 --> 00:25:02,967 And it really caused me a lot of stress. 533 00:25:02,969 --> 00:25:05,769 And Ken was aware of everything 534 00:25:05,771 --> 00:25:07,505 that it was causing me. 535 00:25:09,174 --> 00:25:11,108 At the wedding, right before we were married, 536 00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:13,410 my fiancee, Mindy, came up to me... 537 00:25:13,412 --> 00:25:16,146 You're not gonna believe what your dad just said to me. 538 00:25:16,148 --> 00:25:18,616 and said that Ken had offered 539 00:25:18,618 --> 00:25:22,987 to kill my baby's mom as a wedding gift. 540 00:25:22,989 --> 00:25:24,455 Please tell me you're kidding. 541 00:25:24,457 --> 00:25:26,257 [Matt] She 100% thought he was joking. 542 00:25:26,259 --> 00:25:27,992 But I knew it was a real offer 543 00:25:27,994 --> 00:25:30,594 'cause I knew Ken's history, I knew Ken's path. 544 00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:32,463 Babe, he wasn't serious. 545 00:25:32,465 --> 00:25:33,998 Yes, he was. 546 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,534 I came to the realization that I believed 547 00:25:36,536 --> 00:25:41,105 he had killed the three women prior. 548 00:25:41,107 --> 00:25:43,941 When he made that offer at my wedding, 549 00:25:43,943 --> 00:25:45,776 I mean, pretty much confirmed 550 00:25:45,778 --> 00:25:47,311 everything I had ever thought. 551 00:25:47,313 --> 00:25:50,481 And I immediately looked at Mindy and said, 552 00:25:50,483 --> 00:25:52,349 "I hope you told him no." 553 00:25:52,351 --> 00:25:53,851 She giggled and laughed and she's like, 554 00:25:53,853 --> 00:25:54,952 "Why? He was just joking." 555 00:25:54,954 --> 00:25:56,687 I was like, "No, he's not. 556 00:25:56,689 --> 00:25:59,156 He's dead serious. Please tell me you said no." 557 00:25:59,158 --> 00:26:01,692 What did you tell him? 558 00:26:01,694 --> 00:26:03,827 Of course I said, "No." 559 00:26:03,829 --> 00:26:05,296 I had no doubt in my mind 560 00:26:05,298 --> 00:26:07,064 that if we would have said "Yes", 561 00:26:07,066 --> 00:26:12,069 within two weeks that that would have been the end 562 00:26:12,071 --> 00:26:15,072 of my oldest kids' mom. 563 00:26:21,546 --> 00:26:25,349 This was my wedding to my wife. 564 00:26:25,351 --> 00:26:29,787 This was about ten minutes prior to when he offered to, 565 00:26:29,789 --> 00:26:32,156 as a wedding present, to kill my ex. 566 00:26:32,158 --> 00:26:35,659 He was beyond dead serious. 567 00:26:35,661 --> 00:26:39,196 I'm glad my wife said no. 568 00:26:39,198 --> 00:26:44,835 But he made that offer here and hour and a half, 569 00:26:44,837 --> 00:26:47,037 two hours later, when the wedding is over, 570 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:49,373 he's sitting downstairs sharing his plate of food 571 00:26:49,375 --> 00:26:50,474 with my youngest son. 572 00:26:52,611 --> 00:26:54,178 It shows exactly what I was... 573 00:26:54,180 --> 00:26:57,414 What I dealt with the entire time. 574 00:26:57,416 --> 00:27:00,684 One minute, he would be the guy that was in this picture 575 00:27:00,686 --> 00:27:03,287 that made the offer and the next minute, 576 00:27:03,289 --> 00:27:05,189 he would be one of the nicest people in the world 577 00:27:05,191 --> 00:27:08,826 that would give you his shirt off their back. 578 00:27:08,828 --> 00:27:10,594 When I saw him sitting there, holding my son, 579 00:27:10,596 --> 00:27:13,897 and feeding my son sausage, with my son on his lap, 580 00:27:13,899 --> 00:27:15,766 I looked at him and said, "There's still a chance 581 00:27:15,768 --> 00:27:19,570 to make him a decent person." 582 00:27:19,572 --> 00:27:21,705 And I tried. And I tried. 583 00:27:21,707 --> 00:27:24,241 And I tried. 584 00:27:24,243 --> 00:27:26,410 Unfortunately, it didn't work. 585 00:27:32,851 --> 00:27:34,685 When I first heard about Linda Smith's death, 586 00:27:34,687 --> 00:27:37,821 it was from an article I read in the local newspaper. 587 00:27:37,823 --> 00:27:41,392 I had met Linda Smith numerous times. 588 00:27:41,394 --> 00:27:44,228 Ken had done odd home improvement jobs 589 00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:46,430 for one of her friends. 590 00:27:46,432 --> 00:27:49,333 She had been in our home to have many cookouts 591 00:27:49,335 --> 00:27:51,435 and parties that Ken had on our property. 592 00:27:51,437 --> 00:27:53,771 And the weekend prior to her death, 593 00:27:53,773 --> 00:27:56,340 she was at a cookout at our home. 594 00:27:56,342 --> 00:27:59,009 I had read that she was murdered. 595 00:27:59,011 --> 00:28:03,681 And I had read that it was a gruesome scene. 596 00:28:03,683 --> 00:28:06,417 And when I heard the description, 597 00:28:06,419 --> 00:28:10,387 somewhere inside of me, I knew it was him. 598 00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:12,089 He was just over there. 599 00:28:16,928 --> 00:28:19,029 The first time I got to talk to him, 600 00:28:19,031 --> 00:28:21,265 he was loading his truck out back. 601 00:28:23,568 --> 00:28:27,237 I asked Ken if he had heard about it. 602 00:28:27,239 --> 00:28:28,839 I just heard about Linda. 603 00:28:28,841 --> 00:28:30,541 He was like, "Yeah. I heard it." 604 00:28:30,543 --> 00:28:33,243 He was like, "I'm pretty sure they'll be here 605 00:28:33,245 --> 00:28:35,546 to question me before long." 606 00:28:35,548 --> 00:28:37,247 But this time, I wasn't a kid. 607 00:28:37,249 --> 00:28:39,583 You're going some place? 608 00:28:39,585 --> 00:28:41,885 Yeah. I'm going to a Buddy's house for a few days, 609 00:28:41,887 --> 00:28:44,021 waiting for this to blow over. 610 00:28:44,023 --> 00:28:46,356 And I said, "Well, what do you want me to say if they come?" 611 00:28:46,358 --> 00:28:47,825 "Just tell them I'm out of town 612 00:28:47,827 --> 00:28:50,861 and you don't know where I am." 613 00:28:50,863 --> 00:28:52,596 I gotta get going. 614 00:28:52,598 --> 00:28:54,665 [Matt] I had no doubt at all 615 00:28:54,667 --> 00:28:56,934 that it was him that had done it. 616 00:28:56,936 --> 00:28:59,903 And I wasn't lying for him. 617 00:28:59,905 --> 00:29:02,306 I wasn't gonna say, "No, I didn't know where you were." 618 00:29:02,308 --> 00:29:04,675 I wasn't gonna say, "You were out of town. 619 00:29:04,677 --> 00:29:08,746 I know where you are, I'll say where you are." 620 00:29:08,748 --> 00:29:11,582 I couldn't not come forward. 621 00:29:11,584 --> 00:29:14,618 [suspenseful music playing] 622 00:29:17,989 --> 00:29:19,957 [Matt] I reached out to the police department 623 00:29:19,959 --> 00:29:22,926 and said, "Hey, you need to look at Ken." 624 00:29:22,928 --> 00:29:26,830 And they had me come in and they questioned me. 625 00:29:26,832 --> 00:29:29,166 So what makes you think your dad is the one who did this? 626 00:29:29,168 --> 00:29:31,168 [Matt] And I gave the police 627 00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:34,905 details of what I thought happened. 628 00:29:34,907 --> 00:29:37,174 She was either strangled with this or this. 629 00:29:37,176 --> 00:29:39,610 And I started describing details of the murder scene 630 00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:40,811 without ever being there. 631 00:29:40,813 --> 00:29:42,780 Seem you know an awful lot. 632 00:29:42,782 --> 00:29:44,581 Sure you weren't there? 633 00:29:44,583 --> 00:29:46,784 And they said that I knew some details that were there 634 00:29:46,786 --> 00:29:48,285 that I shouldn't know, 635 00:29:48,287 --> 00:29:50,120 for being somebody that wasn't there. 636 00:29:50,122 --> 00:29:52,089 And they were like, "How do you know these details?" 637 00:29:52,091 --> 00:29:53,957 I said, "Because they match another one." 638 00:29:53,959 --> 00:29:55,926 [detective] What other ones? 639 00:29:55,928 --> 00:29:59,329 They put me on to a lie detector test at that point in time. 640 00:29:59,331 --> 00:30:01,965 After a while, they realized that I wasn't lying. 641 00:30:01,967 --> 00:30:03,267 Listen. If you're right, 642 00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:04,768 you could really help us out here. 643 00:30:04,770 --> 00:30:08,338 And they asked if I thought I could get him to talk. 644 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:11,141 They said, "Does he trust you? Will he talk about things in front of you?" 645 00:30:11,143 --> 00:30:13,544 I was like, "Yes. He tells me stories all the time." 646 00:30:13,546 --> 00:30:15,646 I'm supposed to see him this week. 647 00:30:15,648 --> 00:30:18,315 That's when they had me wear a wire for the first time. 648 00:30:18,317 --> 00:30:21,351 [suspenseful music playing] 649 00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:28,025 [Matt] It's 3:53, January 3rd. 650 00:30:28,027 --> 00:30:29,726 I'm going to Ferraro's to meet Ken Roth 651 00:30:29,728 --> 00:30:31,695 and have a conversation with him. 652 00:30:31,697 --> 00:30:33,664 I'm gonna leave the recording on the whole way there. 653 00:30:33,666 --> 00:30:35,732 So it's already on and hidden. 654 00:30:35,734 --> 00:30:38,435 Every time I wore a wire, I was always conflicted. 655 00:30:38,437 --> 00:30:40,671 It was always a toss-up between 656 00:30:40,673 --> 00:30:44,308 the guy I wanted to put in jail and my dad. 657 00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:46,677 [Matt speaking] 658 00:30:46,679 --> 00:30:48,712 [Kenneth speaking] 659 00:30:54,085 --> 00:30:58,722 I went out of my way to try to get Ken to admit the stuff. 660 00:30:58,724 --> 00:31:01,892 I tried to get him to talk about Linda. 661 00:31:01,894 --> 00:31:03,827 And I tried to get him to talk about the three 662 00:31:03,829 --> 00:31:05,495 when I was growing up. 663 00:31:05,497 --> 00:31:07,531 [Kenneth speaking] 664 00:31:15,273 --> 00:31:18,041 [Matt speaking] 665 00:31:18,043 --> 00:31:20,310 I was trying to get anything and everything 666 00:31:20,312 --> 00:31:24,181 that the cops could use as leverage to get him to admit 667 00:31:24,183 --> 00:31:26,016 to murdering Linda. 668 00:31:26,018 --> 00:31:28,051 [Kenneth speaking] 669 00:31:29,220 --> 00:31:31,455 [Matt speaking] 670 00:31:31,457 --> 00:31:33,891 He would have never thought that I would have been 671 00:31:33,893 --> 00:31:35,759 the one wearing a wire, 672 00:31:37,362 --> 00:31:39,863 which is why I knew that if anybody was gonna get him 673 00:31:39,865 --> 00:31:42,032 to admit anything, it was gonna be me. 674 00:31:42,034 --> 00:31:44,067 [Kenneth speaking] 675 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,921 [Matt] The times I wore a wire, 676 00:32:03,923 --> 00:32:07,224 he always had his gun on his hip, always. 677 00:32:07,226 --> 00:32:09,393 So every time that I was sitting there talking to him, 678 00:32:09,395 --> 00:32:11,962 and he had his gun, I'd think what would he do 679 00:32:11,964 --> 00:32:13,964 if he knew I was wearing it? 680 00:32:13,966 --> 00:32:15,766 And I knew he would have shot me. 681 00:32:15,768 --> 00:32:19,436 And that kept pushing me back to the reality 682 00:32:19,438 --> 00:32:21,438 of I need to get him to talk. 683 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,741 That actually kept me focused on what I was supposed to do. 684 00:32:24,743 --> 00:32:26,777 [Matt speaking] 685 00:32:27,779 --> 00:32:29,780 [Kenneth speaking] 686 00:32:35,987 --> 00:32:37,788 That was one of the times I wore a wire to try 687 00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:39,556 to get him to admit to stuff. 688 00:32:39,558 --> 00:32:42,225 I was pushing the issue quite a bit more there 689 00:32:42,227 --> 00:32:43,493 than I normally would have. 690 00:32:45,296 --> 00:32:47,764 Because I was afraid he would hurt somebody else. 691 00:32:49,634 --> 00:32:51,935 I was afraid of what he would do to the next person 692 00:32:51,937 --> 00:32:54,271 or how many next people there would have been. 693 00:32:54,273 --> 00:32:56,606 I kept fishing for a long time 694 00:32:56,608 --> 00:32:58,842 to see if I could get him to admit something. 695 00:33:00,211 --> 00:33:03,180 And I think that around that point in time 696 00:33:03,182 --> 00:33:07,184 is when he realized too, that I was up to something. 697 00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:13,023 I have no way of knowing for a fact how he found out. 698 00:33:13,025 --> 00:33:16,026 But I believe that he found somehow, 699 00:33:16,028 --> 00:33:18,862 found some way to realize that I was talking to the police, 700 00:33:18,864 --> 00:33:21,131 that's when I realized that he was even more dangerous 701 00:33:21,133 --> 00:33:22,866 than I thought he was. 702 00:33:22,868 --> 00:33:25,836 [tense music playing] 703 00:33:26,671 --> 00:33:27,971 [tense music playing] 704 00:33:27,973 --> 00:33:30,707 After I started speaking with the police, 705 00:33:30,709 --> 00:33:32,642 I noticed some strange things happening. 706 00:33:34,479 --> 00:33:37,714 A truck ran me and my son off of the road next to our home 707 00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:39,082 and put us into a ditch. 708 00:33:40,918 --> 00:33:42,953 Somebody came in our house and loosened plumbing 709 00:33:42,955 --> 00:33:44,955 under three different sinks at once to the point 710 00:33:44,957 --> 00:33:46,490 that our house was filling with water. 711 00:33:46,492 --> 00:33:48,125 Next night, somebody went and opened 712 00:33:48,127 --> 00:33:50,160 all of our house windows. 713 00:33:50,162 --> 00:33:53,096 People started disconnecting our car batteries. 714 00:33:54,399 --> 00:33:57,334 Then stuff started coming up missing. 715 00:33:57,336 --> 00:34:00,670 Like a picture might be moved from one room to another 716 00:34:00,672 --> 00:34:03,874 or a picture of all of us might be gone. 717 00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:06,576 Only one other person had a key to our house, 718 00:34:06,578 --> 00:34:08,412 and that was Ken. 719 00:34:10,081 --> 00:34:11,848 I started to realize that maybe 720 00:34:11,850 --> 00:34:13,717 it was a message to shut up. 721 00:34:16,487 --> 00:34:18,221 That night, we were all in the living room. 722 00:34:18,223 --> 00:34:20,457 We were just kind of hanging out like we always do 723 00:34:20,459 --> 00:34:21,725 and getting ready to watch some TV. 724 00:34:23,828 --> 00:34:25,529 All of a sudden, I noticed a light, 725 00:34:25,531 --> 00:34:29,066 a red dot shows up on like my chest. 726 00:34:30,001 --> 00:34:32,569 It hit me right here. 727 00:34:33,704 --> 00:34:35,305 What the hell is that? 728 00:34:35,307 --> 00:34:37,174 And the light started to move on the wall 729 00:34:37,176 --> 00:34:39,142 and towards where my oldest son was. 730 00:34:39,144 --> 00:34:41,678 And before it could get to my oldest son, 731 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,848 I yelled for Mindy to turn off the light and get down. 732 00:34:44,850 --> 00:34:46,116 Shut off the lights. 733 00:34:46,118 --> 00:34:49,086 I shoved my son to the floor. 734 00:34:49,088 --> 00:34:51,354 It wasn't one of those little pens like you shine 735 00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:53,690 through somebody's window. It... I mean I've seen 736 00:34:53,692 --> 00:34:55,258 laser lights on weapons before 737 00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:56,860 and that's exactly what it was. 738 00:34:56,862 --> 00:34:59,729 It was not a laser pointer. 739 00:34:59,731 --> 00:35:04,668 It was actually a laser sight off of a rifle or a pistol. 740 00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:07,404 And I know Ken had one on a rifle 741 00:35:07,406 --> 00:35:13,543 and I know he had a laser sight on a pistol. 742 00:35:13,545 --> 00:35:15,345 I was so scared. I don't think I've ever been 743 00:35:15,347 --> 00:35:17,114 that scared personally in my life. 744 00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:18,115 Okay. Go. Go that way. 745 00:35:18,117 --> 00:35:21,118 Go. Go. Stay down. 746 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,920 I believe it was Ken that was trying to scare me 747 00:35:23,922 --> 00:35:25,722 because I had information. 748 00:35:25,724 --> 00:35:29,359 And I knew details that nobody else knew. 749 00:35:29,361 --> 00:35:31,027 And he knew that. 750 00:35:31,029 --> 00:35:32,562 We kept the lights off. 751 00:35:32,564 --> 00:35:35,232 I ended up moving everybody into a room 752 00:35:35,234 --> 00:35:37,200 that only had one window on it 753 00:35:37,202 --> 00:35:38,835 that faced the other direction. 754 00:35:38,837 --> 00:35:41,238 That was the night that we decided that we were going 755 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:42,472 to get a U-Haul and leave. 756 00:35:42,474 --> 00:35:44,307 We were gonna leave everything. 757 00:35:44,309 --> 00:35:46,910 I gave up everything, my whole life, 758 00:35:46,912 --> 00:35:49,379 my whole career, and moved into a basement 759 00:35:49,381 --> 00:35:50,947 for the next two years. 760 00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:53,617 We didn't tell anybody where we lived, 761 00:35:53,619 --> 00:35:55,018 we basically just hid. 762 00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:01,158 [dramatic music playing] 763 00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:05,762 [siren wailing] 764 00:36:05,764 --> 00:36:08,899 Got a call from a friend that told me that 765 00:36:08,901 --> 00:36:12,402 there was 20 to 30 cop cars surrounding the house, 766 00:36:12,404 --> 00:36:13,570 cops everywhere. 767 00:36:15,506 --> 00:36:18,575 Ken wound up getting arrested for a weapon's charge 768 00:36:18,577 --> 00:36:21,478 to where a felon's not allowed to own a firearm, 769 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,915 so they arrested him and he was given two years in prison. 770 00:36:24,917 --> 00:36:27,317 During that time, the investigation 771 00:36:27,319 --> 00:36:31,922 into the murder of Linda Smith had picked up. 772 00:36:31,924 --> 00:36:35,592 A new sheriff had taken over and was really pushing 773 00:36:35,594 --> 00:36:39,829 to make sure Ken did not get out of prison 774 00:36:39,831 --> 00:36:41,364 after the two years. 775 00:36:43,534 --> 00:36:45,535 [officer speaking] 776 00:36:48,406 --> 00:36:49,973 About a year later, 777 00:36:49,975 --> 00:36:53,777 he was charged with the murder of Linda Smith. 778 00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:57,581 [officer speaking] 779 00:37:07,692 --> 00:37:10,560 I wasn't sure exactly what leverage they had, 780 00:37:10,562 --> 00:37:13,763 but I thought they finally got some leverage to do something. 781 00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:15,031 [officer speaking] 782 00:37:19,403 --> 00:37:21,404 [officer speaking] 783 00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:32,315 Me and my wife went to the trial every single day 784 00:37:32,317 --> 00:37:35,819 and we sat right behind where Ken's seat was 785 00:37:35,821 --> 00:37:39,389 next to the family of Linda Smith. 786 00:37:39,391 --> 00:37:44,160 But I was there to support the family not Ken. 787 00:37:44,162 --> 00:37:45,695 [officer speaking] 788 00:37:47,632 --> 00:37:53,236 [officer speaking] 789 00:37:53,238 --> 00:37:54,604 [officer speaking] 790 00:37:55,673 --> 00:37:57,674 [Kenneth speaking] 791 00:38:05,483 --> 00:38:08,351 It's weird hearing his voice after this long. 792 00:38:08,353 --> 00:38:11,121 He was never gonna admit it. He'd never make it that easy. 793 00:38:13,090 --> 00:38:15,058 It angered me that nobody believed me, 794 00:38:15,060 --> 00:38:16,626 because if people would have believed me 795 00:38:16,628 --> 00:38:18,328 and people would've listened to me over the years, 796 00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:20,163 and all the times that I had came in for... 797 00:38:20,165 --> 00:38:24,034 Told anybody, therapists, anybody, 798 00:38:24,036 --> 00:38:28,872 then she would have been alive. 799 00:38:28,874 --> 00:38:31,908 [dramatic music playing] 800 00:38:39,083 --> 00:38:42,118 [Matt] I actually did feel validated. 801 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,787 I know that sounds selfish. 802 00:38:43,789 --> 00:38:47,824 But I had told people for many years what was going on. 803 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,463 And I had so many people that I had been around 804 00:38:53,465 --> 00:38:54,931 and grew up around that messaged me 805 00:38:54,933 --> 00:38:57,267 and reached out to me on social media, 806 00:38:57,269 --> 00:39:00,437 in person and said, "Hey look, 807 00:39:00,439 --> 00:39:02,639 I'm sorry I never believed you." 808 00:39:02,641 --> 00:39:05,942 But half of me thought I did the right thing, 809 00:39:05,944 --> 00:39:08,345 and half of me was like I just gave up my dad. 810 00:39:08,347 --> 00:39:11,181 Lost a lot of family because the family didn't want 811 00:39:11,183 --> 00:39:12,849 to admit he did it. I actually had 812 00:39:12,851 --> 00:39:15,318 a family member tell me that 813 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,654 I should have been grateful and shut my mouth. 814 00:39:17,656 --> 00:39:21,691 I can't believe you ratted your dad out. 815 00:39:21,693 --> 00:39:23,426 I can't believe you're a snitch. 816 00:39:25,396 --> 00:39:27,364 Part of me was saddened because I knew that would be 817 00:39:27,366 --> 00:39:30,266 the last time I ever saw him in person. 818 00:39:30,268 --> 00:39:32,502 Once he went to prison, I never reached out again. 819 00:39:32,504 --> 00:39:35,338 I never attempted to talk to him. 820 00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:38,875 I debated writing him letters, but I never did. 821 00:39:38,877 --> 00:39:40,944 I wish I would have. I wish I would have wrote him 822 00:39:40,946 --> 00:39:44,681 and asked him why and see if I could get him 823 00:39:44,683 --> 00:39:48,451 to tell me why he did what he did. 824 00:39:48,453 --> 00:39:50,754 Now, that he's gone, I regret it even more 825 00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:53,656 because I'll never get the answers that I wanted. 826 00:39:57,161 --> 00:40:00,163 [tense music playing] 827 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,269 [Matt] He was diagnosed with COVID. 828 00:40:06,271 --> 00:40:09,272 He ended up going into a coma and while in a coma, 829 00:40:09,274 --> 00:40:10,707 his bowels burst and he died. 830 00:40:13,711 --> 00:40:15,812 I immediately got super depressed. 831 00:40:15,814 --> 00:40:19,649 I went in the bathroom and actually got in the shower 832 00:40:19,651 --> 00:40:23,820 and locked myself in the bathroom for a couple hours. 833 00:40:23,822 --> 00:40:26,356 I didn't wanna come out. I didn't wanna talk to nobody. 834 00:40:26,358 --> 00:40:27,657 I didn't wanna look at nobody. 835 00:40:29,393 --> 00:40:31,594 I was already feeling guilty. 836 00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:33,363 I was the one that helped put him there 837 00:40:33,365 --> 00:40:37,100 and I was the one that made him die alone. 838 00:40:37,102 --> 00:40:41,171 And that's the part that I felt guilty on. 839 00:40:41,173 --> 00:40:43,006 Wasn't the fact that he was spending the rest 840 00:40:43,008 --> 00:40:46,009 of his life in prison, was the fact that he had 841 00:40:46,011 --> 00:40:47,610 to suffer and die alone. 842 00:40:49,947 --> 00:40:53,383 He deserved to live his life sentence out in prison. 843 00:40:53,385 --> 00:40:56,953 I don't think he deserved to die the way he did in prison. 844 00:40:56,955 --> 00:40:59,756 And that's something that I have to figure out 845 00:40:59,758 --> 00:41:00,990 how to deal with. 846 00:41:03,461 --> 00:41:05,929 I miss the good dad that I grew up with. 847 00:41:05,931 --> 00:41:07,931 I miss the man that taught me how to shoot a gun 848 00:41:07,933 --> 00:41:09,732 and trap an animal. 849 00:41:09,734 --> 00:41:13,069 And as much as I love him for being my dad, 850 00:41:13,071 --> 00:41:14,704 part of me hates him for putting me 851 00:41:14,706 --> 00:41:16,306 through everything he put me through. 852 00:41:20,277 --> 00:41:23,279 [dramatic music playing] 853 00:41:29,553 --> 00:41:31,855 I don't think there's enough evidence and enough people 854 00:41:31,857 --> 00:41:34,858 remaining alive that were around at that point in time 855 00:41:34,860 --> 00:41:37,594 to solve any of those. 856 00:41:37,596 --> 00:41:40,029 The only way that the family of those three women 857 00:41:40,031 --> 00:41:42,131 will ever know is if they watch me say 858 00:41:42,133 --> 00:41:45,635 that I think he did it and that I was there. 859 00:41:45,637 --> 00:41:47,904 That's why it's always been important for me 860 00:41:47,906 --> 00:41:49,973 to tell my story. I'd like some of the families 861 00:41:49,975 --> 00:41:51,608 to have some type of closure. 862 00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:55,011 He's never gonna be convicted. 863 00:41:55,013 --> 00:41:57,080 But I can tell you he did it. 864 00:41:57,082 --> 00:41:58,281 And I'm sorry. 865 00:41:59,717 --> 00:42:00,984 I should have screamed louder. 866 00:42:00,986 --> 00:42:02,919 I should have said something. 867 00:42:02,921 --> 00:42:05,889 I did say stuff, but could have maybe done 868 00:42:05,891 --> 00:42:07,657 something different. 869 00:42:07,659 --> 00:42:12,328 And maybe me telling my story will also potentially lead 870 00:42:12,330 --> 00:42:15,665 to other things found, other connections made. 871 00:42:17,668 --> 00:42:20,236 I know there were other murders. 872 00:42:20,238 --> 00:42:23,306 Every story he told me couldn't have been a lie. 873 00:42:23,308 --> 00:42:26,276 I have no doubt in my mind that there's many, many more. 874 00:42:26,278 --> 00:42:30,179 [dramatic music playing]