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[dramatic music playing]
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[Matt] I have vivid memories
of this place
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that don't ever go away.
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Takes me back every time
I drive by this location
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because I drive up and down
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at least two,
three times a week.
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Thirty years ago, I came here
with Ken, my dad.
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My dad had sent me downstairs
to go wait in the truck.
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Unfortunately,
I had to go to the bathroom
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and I held it as long as I could
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and I finally decided
to go upstairs.
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If I would've never
had to go in the bathroom,
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I would've never walked
back upstairs
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and never seen anything.
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This was the first time
I had ever seen a dead body
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that was not in a casket.
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That's something that I
can never get out of my head.
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Every time I go to sleep,
I picture things
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along these lines.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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[detective speaking]
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[Kenneth speaking]
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[detective speaking]
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[Kenneth speaking]
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The stuff he did was stuff
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that would give most people
nightmares
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for the rest of their lives.
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There's lots of people
that didn't believe me,
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lots of people
thought I was joking.
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And they waited way too long
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and too many people got hurt
after that.
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I wouldn't have believed
the kid, either.
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But they should've.
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[dramatic music playing]
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[Matt]
I was born in Cleveland,
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given up for adoption.
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I was adopted at birth
by my mom Cathy.
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When I turned
about seven years old,
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she introduced me to the man
she was planning to marry,
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and that was Ken.
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Not long after, we were
sitting at the kitchen table
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and I had heard some stories
through church about Ken
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and that he wasn't
the greatest person.
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Matt?
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Come sit down a minute.
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[Matt] My grandpa and my mom
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told me that Ken
had went to prison.
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He had been convicted
of a murder charge.
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I was told that he had
ran away from home
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at 18 years old.
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And he had needed cash,
found somebody, robbed him,
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the robbery went bad,
and the gentleman
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that was robbed lost his life.
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It was a long time ago.
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He didn't mean to kill anyone
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and he's sorry for what he did.
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My grandpa said that Ken
had made a bad choice
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and that people make mistakes
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and that's why it was okay
to give him a second chance.
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And we all have to learn
how to forgive.
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Ken served his time, 15 years,
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just like anybody else,
Ken deserves a second chance.
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And since he was out,
then apparently,
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other people thought he deserved
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a second chance as well.
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- Do you understand?
- Yes.
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So to me, being little
for him to be out,
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then in my head,
he had done something
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to deserve to be out.
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There's lots of times
I don't think Ken
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should've ever got
out of prison the first time.
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If he wouldn't have got out
of prison the first time,
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there would've been a lot
of people that were saved.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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This was the kitchen table
at the 7th Street home,
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and he was actually teaching me
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how to play 500 rummy.
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This was the kitchen table
we were sitting
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when I first remember
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getting choked.
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One of the first positive
memories I have of Ken
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was the card games.
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But it didn't take long
after meeting my dad
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for me to start seeing
other sides of him
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that not everybody saw.
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[dramatic music playing]
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One afternoon,
we were sitting down
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at the kitchen table
and he started to tell a story
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about getting into a fight
in prison.
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So the next thing you know,
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I have three guys
have me cornered.
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He had gotten jumped
by three people
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and he used a broom handle
to defend himself
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and killed those people
while he was in prison.
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I laughed at him and thought
it was kind of like,
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"Yeah, yeah, right."
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And then the next thing I know,
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I got a hand around my throat.
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Are you calling me a liar?
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He choked me and said,
"Don't ever call me a liar."
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And I do remember hearing
that over and over,
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"Don't call me a liar."
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My mom made him stop
and he never touched me
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like that ever again.
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God, what are you doing, Ken?
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Are you crazy?
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He never laid his hands on me,
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but I've also made sure
to never insinuate
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or call him a liar, whether
I believed him or not.
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He liked to tell
a lot of stories.
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And sometimes the stories
became very wild.
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And I just rather
I believed the story,
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didn't believe the story.
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I've never-never said
I didn't believe him.
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Because I knew how he would
react if I called him a liar.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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[Matt] He loved to teach me
everything.
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I mean, he taught me
how to hunt, trap, uh,
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shoot guns, he taught me
how to do plumbing, electric,
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construction,
he taught me everything
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that he could possibly teach me.
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Ken always felt that hunting
and trapping was important.
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He, uh, had built
a trapping room
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on the side of our garage
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and he hung the animals
in the back
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and this was the first time
I had ever went actually
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with him to trap beaver.
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And this was one of the
beavers that we brought back.
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Sometimes going in the room
bothered me
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seeing some of the animals
just hanging there.
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There was always animals
either hanging in there
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or caged in there.
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This photo was taken
about a year
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after the incident
with the possum.
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We were out trapping one day
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and there was a very large
possum
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that had its leg stuck
in a trap.
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And he had his pistol.
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He's still alive.
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Here. Give me the stick.
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But instead of just shooting
the animal
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that was in the trap that day,
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he decided to take
his little wooden...
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He called it his "beater"
but it's just basically
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a little wooden club.
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He smacked the possum
the first time
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and he kind of laughed
because it didn't die.
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He just continued to hit it over
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and then he'd wait
and he'd do it again.
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And it would either move
or twitch or try to stand up
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and it would breathe,
and he'd hit it again,
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and he'd back away again,
and he'd laugh,
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and he's like, "This thing
won't... this thing won't die."
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Look, he's fighting.
He's fighting. [laughs]
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The entire time he's hitting
the possum,
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he looked demented.
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His eyes were blank.
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He had a really weird smile
on his face.
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I would say it was
a sadistic smile.
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I've never seen him smile
like that before.
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[laughs]
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I'd seen him kill animals before
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but that possum was just...
I don't know,
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he looked like
he was enjoying it.
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It had to be five, ten minutes
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when it could've just been
ended in a matter of seconds.
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Let's go.
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Once the possum
was finally dead,
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he handed it to me
and I had to carry it
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back to the truck.
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Let's go.
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[Matt] It was upsetting.
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I had never seen him
like that before.
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And I never understood it.
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But as I thought back
about it, I thought,
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you know, he had told me
the story at the kitchen table
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about beating people
with a broom handle.
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And I saw him beat
a possum with, uh,
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his little beater,
as he called it.
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That was the first time
in my memory
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that I thought maybe that
story was completely true.
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I started to believe his
stories more after that one.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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Ken always had guns,
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but he wasn't allowed
to own a gun
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being that he was in prison
and he was a felon.
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It's why he always
had them hidden.
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Ken had guns hidden
under a fish tank he made.
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He had an old
vintage coke machine
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that had guns hidden in it.
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Guns under the bed,
guns in his trucks.
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His favorite gun was a 9x18 9mm.
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That gun traveled with him
everywhere.
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I remember the first time
he actually cleaned his gun
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in front of me.
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Come in.
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He would wipe off each round
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as he put it in the clip,
he would have gloves on.
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Here.
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[Matt] So, his prints
weren't on the bullets.
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He told me every time
I touched a gun
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to make sure I wiped it off
completely.
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You never wanna leave
your prints on a weapon.
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And I was fascinated
because I was listening
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to him tell stories.
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Even when you got gloves,
you can't take that chance.
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[Matt] He started to tell me
about his past
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and stuff that he had done,
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being a problem solver
was his words for it.
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In Ken's own words,
a problem solver was a hitman.
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And when people ask me
to solve their problems,
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this is the one I use.
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And he claimed
to be a problem solver
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for a few families.
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But there are rules.
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[Matt] There were many jobs
that he claimed to have done,
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many situations that he's
claimed to have solved.
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I can think of probably
15 stories at least.
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If he said he had a problem
to take care of,
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he would disappear.
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He'd be gone for a few days.
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He'd come back
a little bit different.
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He'd be a little more
closed off.
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Now get outta here.
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I'll be back in a few weeks.
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[Matt] I had seen movies
that have had hitmen,
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so I had the basic idea
of what a hitman was.
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I remember back then
when I was little,
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I wasn't a hundred percent sure.
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As I got older, I completely
believed that he did that.
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He was a killer.
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[dramatic music playing]
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[Matt] When I first met Ken,
we used to go
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to garage sales all the time.
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If there was a garage sale,
he'd stop.
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Because he always wanted to see
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what he could find
and make money.
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One afternoon,
we stopped at a yard sale
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and there was a drafting
table, drawing table.
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I love to color, I love to draw.
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Ken, check this out.
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When I saw the drafting table,
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I wanted it more than anything.
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I begged for it.
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Can I get it, please?
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Let me ask the lady.
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And I remember there was
a lady that was there,
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he started to negotiate with her
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at that point for the table.
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How much for that table?
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Uh, that table there is $85.
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[Matt]
He kept trying to get it
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but he didn't wanna pay
her price.
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I'll give you $40 for it.
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[Matt] His favorite thing
was to negotiate.
256
00:12:31,518 --> 00:12:34,419
And he couldn't negotiate it.
257
00:12:34,421 --> 00:12:36,187
Come on.
258
00:12:36,189 --> 00:12:37,889
But Ken...
259
00:12:37,891 --> 00:12:39,958
I said, let's go, now.
260
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,127
[Matt] When we went to leave,
he was very...
261
00:12:42,129 --> 00:12:43,862
He sort of had been livid
262
00:12:43,864 --> 00:12:46,264
that he couldn't get it
for what he wanted it for.
263
00:12:46,266 --> 00:12:50,034
He kept saying,
"Oh, I'll get it"
264
00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:51,703
or "I'll get you one."
265
00:12:51,705 --> 00:12:54,939
He kept reassuring me
that I'd get it.
266
00:12:54,941 --> 00:12:57,776
He was angry.
267
00:12:57,778 --> 00:12:59,677
We left the yard sale.
268
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,446
And he took me home,
dropped me off,
269
00:13:01,448 --> 00:13:02,781
and he left me there.
270
00:13:08,154 --> 00:13:10,355
He left me at home
for about an hour.
271
00:13:10,357 --> 00:13:12,657
He came back
and picked me back up.
272
00:13:12,659 --> 00:13:14,592
And then we went back
to the garage sale,
273
00:13:14,594 --> 00:13:17,095
the drafting table was
already outside the garage
274
00:13:17,097 --> 00:13:19,931
which wasn't where it was
when we were there earlier.
275
00:13:19,933 --> 00:13:22,433
And he said that it was mine.
276
00:13:22,435 --> 00:13:23,735
Wait here.
277
00:13:23,737 --> 00:13:25,637
I'm going to get the table.
278
00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:27,505
There was nobody else
at the garage sale.
279
00:13:27,507 --> 00:13:29,808
I did not see the woman
at the garage sale any longer.
280
00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:32,277
I thought he went back
and I thought that, maybe,
281
00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:35,446
he went over there to
negotiate and got it for me.
282
00:13:35,448 --> 00:13:37,015
He is persistent,
283
00:13:37,017 --> 00:13:39,250
so I didn't think
anything of it.
284
00:13:39,252 --> 00:13:40,985
Hurry up. Come help me.
Hurry up.
285
00:13:40,987 --> 00:13:42,487
[Matt] The only change
I noticed in Ken
286
00:13:42,489 --> 00:13:43,822
when we went back
would be the fact
287
00:13:43,824 --> 00:13:45,156
that he was in a hurry.
288
00:13:45,158 --> 00:13:46,591
As soon as he came out
of the garage,
289
00:13:46,593 --> 00:13:47,859
it was, you know,
it's time to go,
290
00:13:47,861 --> 00:13:49,127
we gotta go, let's load it.
291
00:13:49,129 --> 00:13:50,662
And we didn't even
strap it down,
292
00:13:50,664 --> 00:13:53,131
which we always strap
stuff down.
293
00:13:53,133 --> 00:13:55,867
We load the drafting table up
and we left.
294
00:13:55,869 --> 00:13:57,869
And I remember
when he drove home,
295
00:13:57,871 --> 00:14:00,405
he drove home a different way
than we drove the first time.
296
00:14:03,075 --> 00:14:05,143
It was in a matter
of a couple days,
297
00:14:05,145 --> 00:14:08,213
the cops were at our door.
298
00:14:08,215 --> 00:14:11,916
And they're questioning him
about somebody dying
299
00:14:13,786 --> 00:14:18,323
because somebody recognized
the car at the house.
300
00:14:18,325 --> 00:14:20,024
That woman was dead.
301
00:14:20,026 --> 00:14:21,893
I didn't know
who until later on.
302
00:14:21,895 --> 00:14:23,661
It might have been couple years
303
00:14:23,663 --> 00:14:28,867
before I realized
that the two were connected.
304
00:14:28,869 --> 00:14:32,837
Looking back now, I know
he's the one that did it.
305
00:14:32,839 --> 00:14:35,139
And I know the cops
know he did it.
306
00:14:35,141 --> 00:14:38,543
But the cops can't prove it.
307
00:14:38,545 --> 00:14:41,512
I was only at home, I mean,
at the most an hour
308
00:14:41,514 --> 00:14:44,182
and somewhere
in that hour window,
309
00:14:44,184 --> 00:14:46,284
I believe she lost her life.
310
00:14:50,723 --> 00:14:53,157
I feel that me asking
for the table
311
00:14:53,159 --> 00:14:55,126
is what caused her her life.
312
00:14:55,128 --> 00:14:59,330
And that's, you know,
that's something
313
00:14:59,332 --> 00:15:03,801
that I have lived with for,
what, 30 some years.
314
00:15:03,803 --> 00:15:06,070
I wanna say I'm sorry.
315
00:15:06,072 --> 00:15:09,307
I feel totally responsible,
totally.
316
00:15:09,309 --> 00:15:13,144
One hundred percent,
if I wouldn't have said it,
317
00:15:13,146 --> 00:15:15,713
then that wouldn't have
happened.
318
00:15:15,715 --> 00:15:18,716
And I don't think I've ever
admitted that out loud.
319
00:15:18,718 --> 00:15:21,753
[suspenseful music playing]
320
00:15:25,858 --> 00:15:28,092
Ken always did odd jobs
for everybody.
321
00:15:28,094 --> 00:15:30,161
He'd do everything from
plumbing to work on bars,
322
00:15:30,163 --> 00:15:33,765
to do roofs, built garages,
ripped stuff down,
323
00:15:33,767 --> 00:15:35,700
moved people.
324
00:15:35,702 --> 00:15:39,304
He often brought me along
just to help him out.
325
00:15:39,306 --> 00:15:42,240
I was 12, maybe 13 years old,
326
00:15:42,242 --> 00:15:43,775
Ken took me along
to another job.
327
00:15:43,777 --> 00:15:46,945
This time, we were helping
a friend of his, Patty,
328
00:15:46,947 --> 00:15:49,647
move some furniture
from one apartment to another.
329
00:15:49,649 --> 00:15:51,883
Ken was the maintenance man
for that building.
330
00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:54,986
We had taken some stuff
up already, and Ken says,
331
00:15:54,988 --> 00:15:57,155
"Go ahead and wait in the car.
I'll be down in a minute.
332
00:15:57,157 --> 00:15:59,324
And we'll get finished up."
333
00:15:59,326 --> 00:16:01,659
This looks like the last of it.
334
00:16:01,661 --> 00:16:03,795
I went down in the car
and sat there.
335
00:16:03,797 --> 00:16:05,496
Five, maybe ten minutes,
336
00:16:05,498 --> 00:16:07,865
I ended up having to go
to the bathroom.
337
00:16:07,867 --> 00:16:12,670
So I got out of the truck,
which I was told not to do.
338
00:16:12,672 --> 00:16:15,640
And I walked up the steps
to the new apartment,
339
00:16:15,642 --> 00:16:17,208
I turned right to go
in the door,
340
00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:21,612
I turned the door handle
and I saw her laying there,
341
00:16:21,614 --> 00:16:23,081
I saw her bloody and naked.
342
00:16:25,884 --> 00:16:27,385
I knew she was dead
but I didn't know
343
00:16:27,387 --> 00:16:29,687
what had happened.
344
00:16:29,689 --> 00:16:34,792
I just seen her ten,
twenty minutes earlier.
345
00:16:34,794 --> 00:16:36,361
I tried to block this memory out
346
00:16:36,363 --> 00:16:38,429
as much as possible
through the years.
347
00:16:38,431 --> 00:16:42,300
But I remember, I screamed.
348
00:16:42,302 --> 00:16:44,335
I screamed and screamed.
349
00:16:44,337 --> 00:16:46,104
[suspenseful music playing]
350
00:16:46,106 --> 00:16:47,205
He put his hand over my mouth
351
00:16:47,207 --> 00:16:48,773
and he forced me down the steps.
352
00:16:48,775 --> 00:16:50,341
And my feet were barely
touching the steps
353
00:16:50,343 --> 00:16:51,809
as I was going down them.
354
00:16:51,811 --> 00:16:53,845
He had got me out as fast
as possible.
355
00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:55,279
What's going on?
356
00:16:55,281 --> 00:16:57,115
[Matt]
I kept asking what happened.
357
00:16:57,117 --> 00:17:00,251
And I was told
there was an accident.
358
00:17:00,253 --> 00:17:01,686
That's all I was ever told.
359
00:17:01,688 --> 00:17:03,388
You understand?
360
00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:05,490
[Matt] I was told to say
I was never there.
361
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,094
[suspenseful music playing]
362
00:17:10,096 --> 00:17:12,130
[Matt] As soon as I got home,
I told my mom.
363
00:17:12,132 --> 00:17:14,332
I thought that my mom
believed it.
364
00:17:14,334 --> 00:17:17,201
I think my mom was blinded
to everything going on.
365
00:17:17,203 --> 00:17:18,736
My mom still tells me
to this day
366
00:17:18,738 --> 00:17:21,773
that if she realized
what was going on,
367
00:17:21,775 --> 00:17:25,076
she would have stopped it
a long time ago.
368
00:17:25,078 --> 00:17:27,278
I remember being told
that I pretty much
369
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,547
didn't see what I saw.
370
00:17:29,549 --> 00:17:31,916
The cops were there
to talk to him that day.
371
00:17:31,918 --> 00:17:33,384
The cops asked me
if I was there.
372
00:17:33,386 --> 00:17:35,420
And I was told to tell them,
"No."
373
00:17:35,422 --> 00:17:37,522
If I would have said "Yes",
374
00:17:37,524 --> 00:17:40,191
maybe the cops would have
found a way to question me.
375
00:17:40,193 --> 00:17:42,126
But all of a sudden,
it was dropped.
376
00:17:42,128 --> 00:17:46,564
I mean, they didn't question
him anymore.
377
00:17:46,566 --> 00:17:49,267
Once again,
there was no evidence.
378
00:17:54,239 --> 00:17:55,840
Between the police
releasing him,
379
00:17:55,842 --> 00:17:57,442
between everybody
telling me that, you know,
380
00:17:57,444 --> 00:17:59,444
you didn't see it,
you weren't there,
381
00:17:59,446 --> 00:18:00,912
I started to doubt what I saw.
382
00:18:00,914 --> 00:18:02,447
I'm, like, "What did I really...
383
00:18:02,449 --> 00:18:05,416
Did I really see that?"
384
00:18:05,418 --> 00:18:06,951
And every time that the cops
do show up,
385
00:18:06,953 --> 00:18:09,287
they question him
and let him go,
386
00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:12,256
maybe I'm the one
that was seeing it wrong.
387
00:18:12,258 --> 00:18:15,259
Rationalizing what I saw,
I kept trying to tell myself
388
00:18:15,261 --> 00:18:17,695
that it was, like, maybe
she fell, it was an accident.
389
00:18:17,697 --> 00:18:19,197
When she was getting
out of the shower,
390
00:18:19,199 --> 00:18:22,133
she fell and got hurt
and he laid her there.
391
00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:24,502
I doubted myself
for a very long time.
392
00:18:29,675 --> 00:18:32,310
The yellowish tan brick
building behind me
393
00:18:32,312 --> 00:18:36,080
is where Patricia was killed.
394
00:18:36,082 --> 00:18:38,082
She didn't deserve
what Ken did to her.
395
00:18:38,084 --> 00:18:40,818
She was one of the nicest
women that I've ever met.
396
00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:42,487
I was joking around with her
397
00:18:42,489 --> 00:18:43,688
on the first trip up the stairs,
398
00:18:43,690 --> 00:18:45,423
everything seemed to be fine.
399
00:18:45,425 --> 00:18:49,861
And next time I walked up,
she was just lying there.
400
00:18:49,863 --> 00:18:51,662
[suspenseful music playing]
401
00:18:51,664 --> 00:18:53,931
We came out the open door
right there,
402
00:18:53,933 --> 00:18:56,367
to the left
of the electric meters.
403
00:18:56,369 --> 00:18:59,637
And we got into the vehicle
right here in the middle
404
00:18:59,639 --> 00:19:01,305
of the... What would have been
in the middle
405
00:19:01,307 --> 00:19:04,976
of the white brick building
and we left.
406
00:19:04,978 --> 00:19:06,978
I believe what happened
had to have been quick.
407
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:10,982
At least I... I hope
it was quick.
408
00:19:10,984 --> 00:19:12,717
I hope that it wasn't drawn out.
409
00:19:12,719 --> 00:19:15,920
And I hope she didn't lay
there when he took me away
410
00:19:15,922 --> 00:19:19,991
and potentially suffer.
411
00:19:19,993 --> 00:19:22,927
I believe he strangled her
and I believe he cut her,
412
00:19:22,929 --> 00:19:26,330
but I was turned around
so quickly.
413
00:19:26,332 --> 00:19:29,867
I mean, I have somewhat
of a vision in my head
414
00:19:29,869 --> 00:19:32,970
of what I saw but I was told
for a long time
415
00:19:32,972 --> 00:19:35,139
that I didn't see what I saw.
416
00:19:35,141 --> 00:19:37,842
He just kept saying
that there was an accident
417
00:19:37,844 --> 00:19:40,711
and we had to get out.
418
00:19:40,713 --> 00:19:45,349
I had just seen her, everything
was fine moments before,
419
00:19:45,351 --> 00:19:47,018
now you're naked
in the middle of the floor.
420
00:19:47,020 --> 00:19:52,089
That's not... that's not
an accident.
421
00:19:56,028 --> 00:19:57,295
[suspenseful music playing]
422
00:19:57,297 --> 00:19:58,963
[Matt] Ken did a lot of home
improvement jobs.
423
00:19:58,965 --> 00:20:02,066
He also installed
security systems.
424
00:20:02,068 --> 00:20:04,869
And Ken had previously
installed an alarm system
425
00:20:04,871 --> 00:20:07,438
on a home and he told me
I needed to come with him
426
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,907
to help him fix a problem
that they were having
427
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:11,876
with this alarm.
428
00:20:11,878 --> 00:20:15,880
We showed up and the woman
that lived there was...
429
00:20:15,882 --> 00:20:17,882
Said she was getting ready
to make cookies.
430
00:20:17,884 --> 00:20:21,219
We were working
on the alarm system.
431
00:20:21,221 --> 00:20:23,120
Ken seemed, actually,
relatively happy.
432
00:20:23,122 --> 00:20:24,922
I mean, I didn't see any issues.
433
00:20:24,924 --> 00:20:26,924
I didn't see anything wrong.
434
00:20:26,926 --> 00:20:29,393
I was in the bedroom.
435
00:20:29,395 --> 00:20:34,131
He was in the living room,
dining room area.
436
00:20:34,133 --> 00:20:35,399
[gunshot]
437
00:20:37,169 --> 00:20:41,772
And I heard a very loud,
pop, bang,
438
00:20:41,774 --> 00:20:44,442
very loud noise, like,
extremely loud.
439
00:20:44,444 --> 00:20:46,043
And I was like,
"Hey, Dad, what was that?"
440
00:20:46,045 --> 00:20:48,045
I was like,
"Are you all right?"
441
00:20:48,047 --> 00:20:50,982
And he answers back, "I knocked
something over and I broke it."
442
00:20:50,984 --> 00:20:52,850
He was like, "I'll tell you
when we get outside."
443
00:20:52,852 --> 00:20:54,652
[Kenneth] Keep doing
what you are doing.
444
00:20:54,654 --> 00:20:56,687
[Matt] He was, like,
stay there and I'll get done.
445
00:20:56,689 --> 00:20:59,023
He finished fixing the thing
to the wall.
446
00:20:59,025 --> 00:21:01,993
We hooked the wire up and
we finished the alarm system
447
00:21:01,995 --> 00:21:04,195
and we went to leave.
448
00:21:04,197 --> 00:21:06,230
I walked by the room
and you could see
449
00:21:06,232 --> 00:21:09,967
into the living room,
she was in the living room
450
00:21:09,969 --> 00:21:13,771
when we left, on the couch,
ice pack on her forehead.
451
00:21:13,773 --> 00:21:15,273
Don't wake her.
452
00:21:15,275 --> 00:21:16,941
[Matt] I asked him
what was going on.
453
00:21:16,943 --> 00:21:19,176
She's not feeling well.
She's taking a nap.
454
00:21:19,178 --> 00:21:21,012
He said,
the woman had a headache
455
00:21:21,014 --> 00:21:22,346
and went to lie down.
456
00:21:22,348 --> 00:21:24,048
He had helped her
make an ice pack.
457
00:21:24,050 --> 00:21:25,950
Here, take this.
458
00:21:25,952 --> 00:21:28,319
[Matt] He handed me his...
It was his blue handkerchief
459
00:21:28,321 --> 00:21:29,520
that he always carried.
460
00:21:29,522 --> 00:21:31,122
He had me wipe off
the door handle,
461
00:21:31,124 --> 00:21:33,124
the alarm panel, the inside
and outside of the door
462
00:21:33,126 --> 00:21:34,625
as we carried everything out,
463
00:21:34,627 --> 00:21:37,128
which I thought was,
kinda, weird.
464
00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:39,397
He's like, "When you close
the door, use your rag."
465
00:21:39,399 --> 00:21:42,967
He's like, "We don't wanna
leave dirt marks."
466
00:21:42,969 --> 00:21:44,635
He made sure I was the one
that wiped it off
467
00:21:44,637 --> 00:21:46,704
and I set the alarm
and I closed the door
468
00:21:46,706 --> 00:21:49,173
and then we left.
469
00:21:49,175 --> 00:21:51,242
That was the weird part,
470
00:21:51,244 --> 00:21:53,210
was why would we set the alarm
471
00:21:53,212 --> 00:21:54,879
with her in the house?
472
00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:02,687
Within a matter of two days,
I had heard it on the radio,
473
00:22:02,689 --> 00:22:06,057
I had heard she had died,
I had heard she got shot.
474
00:22:06,059 --> 00:22:08,392
Apparently her husband came
home and didn't realize
475
00:22:08,394 --> 00:22:11,796
that she was deceased
at the time,
476
00:22:11,798 --> 00:22:13,831
thought she was just lying
on the couch with headache
477
00:22:13,833 --> 00:22:17,468
and it took him a while
to realize that she was gone.
478
00:22:20,605 --> 00:22:23,607
[suspenseful music playing]
479
00:22:29,214 --> 00:22:30,915
Early the next day,
480
00:22:30,917 --> 00:22:34,418
once again the police
were at our door.
481
00:22:34,420 --> 00:22:36,253
Then it started to click.
482
00:22:36,255 --> 00:22:39,390
And I started to realize,
483
00:22:39,392 --> 00:22:42,893
"Hey, you know,
something is going on."
484
00:22:42,895 --> 00:22:46,197
But once again,
nobody believed me.
485
00:22:46,199 --> 00:22:49,166
I mentioned it to a therapist
that I had had.
486
00:22:49,168 --> 00:22:51,369
My therapist pretty much told me
487
00:22:51,371 --> 00:22:53,838
that I was exaggerating,
488
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,940
that I didn't know
what I was talking about,
489
00:22:55,942 --> 00:22:58,409
which seemed to always be
every adult's answer.
490
00:22:58,411 --> 00:23:00,177
There's lots of people
that didn't believe me.
491
00:23:00,179 --> 00:23:03,647
Lots of people thought
I was joking.
492
00:23:03,649 --> 00:23:06,517
And I told my mom
that I thought he did it.
493
00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:09,320
And she thought
I was exaggerating.
494
00:23:12,357 --> 00:23:14,325
[suspenseful music playing]
495
00:23:14,327 --> 00:23:16,193
[Matt] I also talked to Ken
and I asked him
496
00:23:16,195 --> 00:23:18,529
why this kept going on.
497
00:23:18,531 --> 00:23:23,234
And his response was,
"Oh, it's just BS.
498
00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:24,935
Every time that there's
a murder in Canton
499
00:23:24,937 --> 00:23:26,170
they come to me.
500
00:23:26,172 --> 00:23:27,905
I'm freshly out of jail."
501
00:23:27,907 --> 00:23:29,106
And when he said that, I'm like,
502
00:23:29,108 --> 00:23:30,841
"Okay, well, maybe."
503
00:23:30,843 --> 00:23:32,810
You know,
I wanted to believe him.
504
00:23:32,812 --> 00:23:34,311
And I didn't wanna think
he was capable
505
00:23:34,313 --> 00:23:36,046
of something like that.
506
00:23:36,048 --> 00:23:37,615
Are you okay?
507
00:23:37,617 --> 00:23:40,418
You got nothing to worry about.
508
00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:43,154
Every few years,
the cops were at my house.
509
00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:45,122
Every few years, he was accused
510
00:23:45,124 --> 00:23:48,659
to murdering somebody,
nothing ever happened.
511
00:23:48,661 --> 00:23:51,896
If they had any evidence,
they would have arrested him.
512
00:23:51,898 --> 00:23:53,931
But they never arrested him.
513
00:23:53,933 --> 00:23:55,366
If the cops didn't think
he did it,
514
00:23:55,368 --> 00:23:57,168
then why should I think
he did it?
515
00:23:57,170 --> 00:24:01,839
Then I heard that the husband
got questioned.
516
00:24:01,841 --> 00:24:03,841
People were saying,
"Oh, it was the husband."
517
00:24:03,843 --> 00:24:05,976
I thought, "Well,
maybe the husband came home
518
00:24:05,978 --> 00:24:08,646
and they got into a fight."
519
00:24:08,648 --> 00:24:14,051
So I, once again, tried to,
in my head, brush it off.
520
00:24:16,421 --> 00:24:19,423
[suspenseful music playing]
521
00:24:27,332 --> 00:24:31,202
A few years
after the last incident,
522
00:24:31,204 --> 00:24:35,573
Ken got into an altercation
with a friend/business partner
523
00:24:35,575 --> 00:24:39,510
and it wound him back up in
prison for about five years.
524
00:24:39,512 --> 00:24:40,978
By the time Ken
got out of the prison,
525
00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:42,713
my life had changed a lot.
526
00:24:42,715 --> 00:24:44,582
Him and my mom were divorced.
527
00:24:44,584 --> 00:24:46,884
I was already planning
on getting married.
528
00:24:46,886 --> 00:24:49,119
Before I met my wife,
I had two children
529
00:24:49,121 --> 00:24:51,589
with a prior relationship.
530
00:24:51,591 --> 00:24:55,159
For years, I had been
in a really nasty battle
531
00:24:55,161 --> 00:24:58,562
over custody of my two
oldest children.
532
00:24:58,564 --> 00:25:02,967
And it really caused me
a lot of stress.
533
00:25:02,969 --> 00:25:05,769
And Ken was aware of everything
534
00:25:05,771 --> 00:25:07,505
that it was causing me.
535
00:25:09,174 --> 00:25:11,108
At the wedding,
right before we were married,
536
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:13,410
my fiancee, Mindy,
came up to me...
537
00:25:13,412 --> 00:25:16,146
You're not gonna believe what
your dad just said to me.
538
00:25:16,148 --> 00:25:18,616
and said that Ken
had offered
539
00:25:18,618 --> 00:25:22,987
to kill my baby's mom
as a wedding gift.
540
00:25:22,989 --> 00:25:24,455
Please tell me you're kidding.
541
00:25:24,457 --> 00:25:26,257
[Matt] She 100% thought
he was joking.
542
00:25:26,259 --> 00:25:27,992
But I knew it was a real offer
543
00:25:27,994 --> 00:25:30,594
'cause I knew Ken's history,
I knew Ken's path.
544
00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:32,463
Babe, he wasn't serious.
545
00:25:32,465 --> 00:25:33,998
Yes, he was.
546
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,534
I came to the realization
that I believed
547
00:25:36,536 --> 00:25:41,105
he had killed
the three women prior.
548
00:25:41,107 --> 00:25:43,941
When he made that offer
at my wedding,
549
00:25:43,943 --> 00:25:45,776
I mean, pretty much confirmed
550
00:25:45,778 --> 00:25:47,311
everything I had ever thought.
551
00:25:47,313 --> 00:25:50,481
And I immediately
looked at Mindy and said,
552
00:25:50,483 --> 00:25:52,349
"I hope you told him no."
553
00:25:52,351 --> 00:25:53,851
She giggled and laughed
and she's like,
554
00:25:53,853 --> 00:25:54,952
"Why? He was just joking."
555
00:25:54,954 --> 00:25:56,687
I was like, "No, he's not.
556
00:25:56,689 --> 00:25:59,156
He's dead serious.
Please tell me you said no."
557
00:25:59,158 --> 00:26:01,692
What did you tell him?
558
00:26:01,694 --> 00:26:03,827
Of course I said, "No."
559
00:26:03,829 --> 00:26:05,296
I had no doubt in my mind
560
00:26:05,298 --> 00:26:07,064
that if we would have said
"Yes",
561
00:26:07,066 --> 00:26:12,069
within two weeks that
that would have been the end
562
00:26:12,071 --> 00:26:15,072
of my oldest kids' mom.
563
00:26:21,546 --> 00:26:25,349
This was my wedding to my wife.
564
00:26:25,351 --> 00:26:29,787
This was about ten minutes
prior to when he offered to,
565
00:26:29,789 --> 00:26:32,156
as a wedding present,
to kill my ex.
566
00:26:32,158 --> 00:26:35,659
He was beyond dead serious.
567
00:26:35,661 --> 00:26:39,196
I'm glad my wife said no.
568
00:26:39,198 --> 00:26:44,835
But he made that offer here
and hour and a half,
569
00:26:44,837 --> 00:26:47,037
two hours later,
when the wedding is over,
570
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:49,373
he's sitting downstairs
sharing his plate of food
571
00:26:49,375 --> 00:26:50,474
with my youngest son.
572
00:26:52,611 --> 00:26:54,178
It shows exactly what I was...
573
00:26:54,180 --> 00:26:57,414
What I dealt with
the entire time.
574
00:26:57,416 --> 00:27:00,684
One minute, he would be
the guy that was in this picture
575
00:27:00,686 --> 00:27:03,287
that made the offer
and the next minute,
576
00:27:03,289 --> 00:27:05,189
he would be one of the nicest
people in the world
577
00:27:05,191 --> 00:27:08,826
that would give you his shirt
off their back.
578
00:27:08,828 --> 00:27:10,594
When I saw him sitting there,
holding my son,
579
00:27:10,596 --> 00:27:13,897
and feeding my son sausage,
with my son on his lap,
580
00:27:13,899 --> 00:27:15,766
I looked at him and said,
"There's still a chance
581
00:27:15,768 --> 00:27:19,570
to make him a decent person."
582
00:27:19,572 --> 00:27:21,705
And I tried. And I tried.
583
00:27:21,707 --> 00:27:24,241
And I tried.
584
00:27:24,243 --> 00:27:26,410
Unfortunately, it didn't work.
585
00:27:32,851 --> 00:27:34,685
When I first heard about
Linda Smith's death,
586
00:27:34,687 --> 00:27:37,821
it was from an article I read
in the local newspaper.
587
00:27:37,823 --> 00:27:41,392
I had met Linda Smith
numerous times.
588
00:27:41,394 --> 00:27:44,228
Ken had done
odd home improvement jobs
589
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:46,430
for one of her friends.
590
00:27:46,432 --> 00:27:49,333
She had been in our home
to have many cookouts
591
00:27:49,335 --> 00:27:51,435
and parties that Ken had
on our property.
592
00:27:51,437 --> 00:27:53,771
And the weekend prior
to her death,
593
00:27:53,773 --> 00:27:56,340
she was at a cookout
at our home.
594
00:27:56,342 --> 00:27:59,009
I had read
that she was murdered.
595
00:27:59,011 --> 00:28:03,681
And I had read that it was
a gruesome scene.
596
00:28:03,683 --> 00:28:06,417
And when I heard
the description,
597
00:28:06,419 --> 00:28:10,387
somewhere inside of me,
I knew it was him.
598
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:12,089
He was just over there.
599
00:28:16,928 --> 00:28:19,029
The first time
I got to talk to him,
600
00:28:19,031 --> 00:28:21,265
he was loading his truck
out back.
601
00:28:23,568 --> 00:28:27,237
I asked Ken if he had heard
about it.
602
00:28:27,239 --> 00:28:28,839
I just heard about Linda.
603
00:28:28,841 --> 00:28:30,541
He was like,
"Yeah. I heard it."
604
00:28:30,543 --> 00:28:33,243
He was like, "I'm pretty sure
they'll be here
605
00:28:33,245 --> 00:28:35,546
to question me before long."
606
00:28:35,548 --> 00:28:37,247
But this time, I wasn't a kid.
607
00:28:37,249 --> 00:28:39,583
You're going some place?
608
00:28:39,585 --> 00:28:41,885
Yeah. I'm going to a Buddy's
house for a few days,
609
00:28:41,887 --> 00:28:44,021
waiting for this to blow over.
610
00:28:44,023 --> 00:28:46,356
And I said, "Well, what do you
want me to say if they come?"
611
00:28:46,358 --> 00:28:47,825
"Just tell them I'm out of town
612
00:28:47,827 --> 00:28:50,861
and you don't know
where I am."
613
00:28:50,863 --> 00:28:52,596
I gotta get going.
614
00:28:52,598 --> 00:28:54,665
[Matt] I had no doubt at all
615
00:28:54,667 --> 00:28:56,934
that it was him
that had done it.
616
00:28:56,936 --> 00:28:59,903
And I wasn't lying for him.
617
00:28:59,905 --> 00:29:02,306
I wasn't gonna say, "No,
I didn't know where you were."
618
00:29:02,308 --> 00:29:04,675
I wasn't gonna say,
"You were out of town.
619
00:29:04,677 --> 00:29:08,746
I know where you are,
I'll say where you are."
620
00:29:08,748 --> 00:29:11,582
I couldn't not come forward.
621
00:29:11,584 --> 00:29:14,618
[suspenseful music playing]
622
00:29:17,989 --> 00:29:19,957
[Matt] I reached out
to the police department
623
00:29:19,959 --> 00:29:22,926
and said, "Hey,
you need to look at Ken."
624
00:29:22,928 --> 00:29:26,830
And they had me come in
and they questioned me.
625
00:29:26,832 --> 00:29:29,166
So what makes you think your
dad is the one who did this?
626
00:29:29,168 --> 00:29:31,168
[Matt] And I gave the police
627
00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:34,905
details of what
I thought happened.
628
00:29:34,907 --> 00:29:37,174
She was either strangled
with this or this.
629
00:29:37,176 --> 00:29:39,610
And I started describing
details of the murder scene
630
00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:40,811
without ever being there.
631
00:29:40,813 --> 00:29:42,780
Seem you know an awful lot.
632
00:29:42,782 --> 00:29:44,581
Sure you weren't there?
633
00:29:44,583 --> 00:29:46,784
And they said that I knew
some details that were there
634
00:29:46,786 --> 00:29:48,285
that I shouldn't know,
635
00:29:48,287 --> 00:29:50,120
for being somebody
that wasn't there.
636
00:29:50,122 --> 00:29:52,089
And they were like, "How do
you know these details?"
637
00:29:52,091 --> 00:29:53,957
I said, "Because they match
another one."
638
00:29:53,959 --> 00:29:55,926
[detective] What other ones?
639
00:29:55,928 --> 00:29:59,329
They put me on to a lie
detector test at that point in time.
640
00:29:59,331 --> 00:30:01,965
After a while, they realized
that I wasn't lying.
641
00:30:01,967 --> 00:30:03,267
Listen. If you're right,
642
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:04,768
you could really help us
out here.
643
00:30:04,770 --> 00:30:08,338
And they asked if I thought
I could get him to talk.
644
00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:11,141
They said, "Does he trust you? Will
he talk about things in front of you?"
645
00:30:11,143 --> 00:30:13,544
I was like, "Yes. He tells me
stories all the time."
646
00:30:13,546 --> 00:30:15,646
I'm supposed to see him
this week.
647
00:30:15,648 --> 00:30:18,315
That's when they had me wear
a wire for the first time.
648
00:30:18,317 --> 00:30:21,351
[suspenseful music playing]
649
00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:28,025
[Matt] It's 3:53, January 3rd.
650
00:30:28,027 --> 00:30:29,726
I'm going to Ferraro's
to meet Ken Roth
651
00:30:29,728 --> 00:30:31,695
and have a conversation
with him.
652
00:30:31,697 --> 00:30:33,664
I'm gonna leave the recording
on the whole way there.
653
00:30:33,666 --> 00:30:35,732
So it's already on and hidden.
654
00:30:35,734 --> 00:30:38,435
Every time I wore a wire,
I was always conflicted.
655
00:30:38,437 --> 00:30:40,671
It was always a toss-up between
656
00:30:40,673 --> 00:30:44,308
the guy I wanted to put
in jail and my dad.
657
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:46,677
[Matt speaking]
658
00:30:46,679 --> 00:30:48,712
[Kenneth speaking]
659
00:30:54,085 --> 00:30:58,722
I went out of my way to try
to get Ken to admit the stuff.
660
00:30:58,724 --> 00:31:01,892
I tried to get him to talk
about Linda.
661
00:31:01,894 --> 00:31:03,827
And I tried to get him
to talk about the three
662
00:31:03,829 --> 00:31:05,495
when I was growing up.
663
00:31:05,497 --> 00:31:07,531
[Kenneth speaking]
664
00:31:15,273 --> 00:31:18,041
[Matt speaking]
665
00:31:18,043 --> 00:31:20,310
I was trying to get anything
and everything
666
00:31:20,312 --> 00:31:24,181
that the cops could use as
leverage to get him to admit
667
00:31:24,183 --> 00:31:26,016
to murdering Linda.
668
00:31:26,018 --> 00:31:28,051
[Kenneth speaking]
669
00:31:29,220 --> 00:31:31,455
[Matt speaking]
670
00:31:31,457 --> 00:31:33,891
He would have never thought
that I would have been
671
00:31:33,893 --> 00:31:35,759
the one wearing a wire,
672
00:31:37,362 --> 00:31:39,863
which is why I knew that
if anybody was gonna get him
673
00:31:39,865 --> 00:31:42,032
to admit anything,
it was gonna be me.
674
00:31:42,034 --> 00:31:44,067
[Kenneth speaking]
675
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,921
[Matt]
The times I wore a wire,
676
00:32:03,923 --> 00:32:07,224
he always had his gun
on his hip, always.
677
00:32:07,226 --> 00:32:09,393
So every time that I was
sitting there talking to him,
678
00:32:09,395 --> 00:32:11,962
and he had his gun,
I'd think what would he do
679
00:32:11,964 --> 00:32:13,964
if he knew I was wearing it?
680
00:32:13,966 --> 00:32:15,766
And I knew he would
have shot me.
681
00:32:15,768 --> 00:32:19,436
And that kept pushing me back
to the reality
682
00:32:19,438 --> 00:32:21,438
of I need to get him to talk.
683
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,741
That actually kept me focused
on what I was supposed to do.
684
00:32:24,743 --> 00:32:26,777
[Matt speaking]
685
00:32:27,779 --> 00:32:29,780
[Kenneth speaking]
686
00:32:35,987 --> 00:32:37,788
That was one of the times
I wore a wire to try
687
00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:39,556
to get him to admit to stuff.
688
00:32:39,558 --> 00:32:42,225
I was pushing the issue
quite a bit more there
689
00:32:42,227 --> 00:32:43,493
than I normally would have.
690
00:32:45,296 --> 00:32:47,764
Because I was afraid
he would hurt somebody else.
691
00:32:49,634 --> 00:32:51,935
I was afraid of what he would
do to the next person
692
00:32:51,937 --> 00:32:54,271
or how many next people
there would have been.
693
00:32:54,273 --> 00:32:56,606
I kept fishing for a long time
694
00:32:56,608 --> 00:32:58,842
to see if I could get him
to admit something.
695
00:33:00,211 --> 00:33:03,180
And I think that around
that point in time
696
00:33:03,182 --> 00:33:07,184
is when he realized too,
that I was up to something.
697
00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:13,023
I have no way of knowing
for a fact how he found out.
698
00:33:13,025 --> 00:33:16,026
But I believe
that he found somehow,
699
00:33:16,028 --> 00:33:18,862
found some way to realize that
I was talking to the police,
700
00:33:18,864 --> 00:33:21,131
that's when I realized that
he was even more dangerous
701
00:33:21,133 --> 00:33:22,866
than I thought he was.
702
00:33:22,868 --> 00:33:25,836
[tense music playing]
703
00:33:26,671 --> 00:33:27,971
[tense music playing]
704
00:33:27,973 --> 00:33:30,707
After I started speaking
with the police,
705
00:33:30,709 --> 00:33:32,642
I noticed some
strange things happening.
706
00:33:34,479 --> 00:33:37,714
A truck ran me and my son off
of the road next to our home
707
00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:39,082
and put us into a ditch.
708
00:33:40,918 --> 00:33:42,953
Somebody came in our house
and loosened plumbing
709
00:33:42,955 --> 00:33:44,955
under three different sinks
at once to the point
710
00:33:44,957 --> 00:33:46,490
that our house
was filling with water.
711
00:33:46,492 --> 00:33:48,125
Next night,
somebody went and opened
712
00:33:48,127 --> 00:33:50,160
all of our house windows.
713
00:33:50,162 --> 00:33:53,096
People started disconnecting
our car batteries.
714
00:33:54,399 --> 00:33:57,334
Then stuff started
coming up missing.
715
00:33:57,336 --> 00:34:00,670
Like a picture might be moved
from one room to another
716
00:34:00,672 --> 00:34:03,874
or a picture of all of us
might be gone.
717
00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:06,576
Only one other person
had a key to our house,
718
00:34:06,578 --> 00:34:08,412
and that was Ken.
719
00:34:10,081 --> 00:34:11,848
I started to realize that maybe
720
00:34:11,850 --> 00:34:13,717
it was a message to shut up.
721
00:34:16,487 --> 00:34:18,221
That night, we were all
in the living room.
722
00:34:18,223 --> 00:34:20,457
We were just kind of hanging
out like we always do
723
00:34:20,459 --> 00:34:21,725
and getting ready
to watch some TV.
724
00:34:23,828 --> 00:34:25,529
All of a sudden,
I noticed a light,
725
00:34:25,531 --> 00:34:29,066
a red dot shows up
on like my chest.
726
00:34:30,001 --> 00:34:32,569
It hit me right here.
727
00:34:33,704 --> 00:34:35,305
What the hell is that?
728
00:34:35,307 --> 00:34:37,174
And the light started
to move on the wall
729
00:34:37,176 --> 00:34:39,142
and towards where
my oldest son was.
730
00:34:39,144 --> 00:34:41,678
And before it could get
to my oldest son,
731
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,848
I yelled for Mindy to turn off
the light and get down.
732
00:34:44,850 --> 00:34:46,116
Shut off the lights.
733
00:34:46,118 --> 00:34:49,086
I shoved my son to the floor.
734
00:34:49,088 --> 00:34:51,354
It wasn't one of those
little pens like you shine
735
00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:53,690
through somebody's window.
It... I mean I've seen
736
00:34:53,692 --> 00:34:55,258
laser lights on weapons before
737
00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:56,860
and that's exactly what it was.
738
00:34:56,862 --> 00:34:59,729
It was not a laser pointer.
739
00:34:59,731 --> 00:35:04,668
It was actually a laser sight
off of a rifle or a pistol.
740
00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:07,404
And I know Ken had one
on a rifle
741
00:35:07,406 --> 00:35:13,543
and I know he had
a laser sight on a pistol.
742
00:35:13,545 --> 00:35:15,345
I was so scared.
I don't think I've ever been
743
00:35:15,347 --> 00:35:17,114
that scared personally
in my life.
744
00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:18,115
Okay. Go. Go that way.
745
00:35:18,117 --> 00:35:21,118
Go. Go. Stay down.
746
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,920
I believe it was Ken
that was trying to scare me
747
00:35:23,922 --> 00:35:25,722
because I had information.
748
00:35:25,724 --> 00:35:29,359
And I knew details
that nobody else knew.
749
00:35:29,361 --> 00:35:31,027
And he knew that.
750
00:35:31,029 --> 00:35:32,562
We kept the lights off.
751
00:35:32,564 --> 00:35:35,232
I ended up moving everybody
into a room
752
00:35:35,234 --> 00:35:37,200
that only had one window on it
753
00:35:37,202 --> 00:35:38,835
that faced the other direction.
754
00:35:38,837 --> 00:35:41,238
That was the night that
we decided that we were going
755
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:42,472
to get a U-Haul and leave.
756
00:35:42,474 --> 00:35:44,307
We were gonna leave everything.
757
00:35:44,309 --> 00:35:46,910
I gave up everything,
my whole life,
758
00:35:46,912 --> 00:35:49,379
my whole career,
and moved into a basement
759
00:35:49,381 --> 00:35:50,947
for the next two years.
760
00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:53,617
We didn't tell anybody
where we lived,
761
00:35:53,619 --> 00:35:55,018
we basically just hid.
762
00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:01,158
[dramatic music playing]
763
00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:05,762
[siren wailing]
764
00:36:05,764 --> 00:36:08,899
Got a call from a friend
that told me that
765
00:36:08,901 --> 00:36:12,402
there was 20 to 30 cop cars
surrounding the house,
766
00:36:12,404 --> 00:36:13,570
cops everywhere.
767
00:36:15,506 --> 00:36:18,575
Ken wound up getting arrested
for a weapon's charge
768
00:36:18,577 --> 00:36:21,478
to where a felon's not allowed
to own a firearm,
769
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,915
so they arrested him and he
was given two years in prison.
770
00:36:24,917 --> 00:36:27,317
During that time,
the investigation
771
00:36:27,319 --> 00:36:31,922
into the murder of Linda Smith
had picked up.
772
00:36:31,924 --> 00:36:35,592
A new sheriff had taken over
and was really pushing
773
00:36:35,594 --> 00:36:39,829
to make sure Ken
did not get out of prison
774
00:36:39,831 --> 00:36:41,364
after the two years.
775
00:36:43,534 --> 00:36:45,535
[officer speaking]
776
00:36:48,406 --> 00:36:49,973
About a year later,
777
00:36:49,975 --> 00:36:53,777
he was charged with the murder
of Linda Smith.
778
00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:57,581
[officer speaking]
779
00:37:07,692 --> 00:37:10,560
I wasn't sure exactly
what leverage they had,
780
00:37:10,562 --> 00:37:13,763
but I thought they finally got
some leverage to do something.
781
00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:15,031
[officer speaking]
782
00:37:19,403 --> 00:37:21,404
[officer speaking]
783
00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:32,315
Me and my wife went
to the trial every single day
784
00:37:32,317 --> 00:37:35,819
and we sat right behind
where Ken's seat was
785
00:37:35,821 --> 00:37:39,389
next to the family
of Linda Smith.
786
00:37:39,391 --> 00:37:44,160
But I was there to support
the family not Ken.
787
00:37:44,162 --> 00:37:45,695
[officer speaking]
788
00:37:47,632 --> 00:37:53,236
[officer speaking]
789
00:37:53,238 --> 00:37:54,604
[officer speaking]
790
00:37:55,673 --> 00:37:57,674
[Kenneth speaking]
791
00:38:05,483 --> 00:38:08,351
It's weird hearing his voice
after this long.
792
00:38:08,353 --> 00:38:11,121
He was never gonna admit it.
He'd never make it that easy.
793
00:38:13,090 --> 00:38:15,058
It angered me
that nobody believed me,
794
00:38:15,060 --> 00:38:16,626
because if people
would have believed me
795
00:38:16,628 --> 00:38:18,328
and people would've listened
to me over the years,
796
00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:20,163
and all the times
that I had came in for...
797
00:38:20,165 --> 00:38:24,034
Told anybody,
therapists, anybody,
798
00:38:24,036 --> 00:38:28,872
then she would have been alive.
799
00:38:28,874 --> 00:38:31,908
[dramatic music playing]
800
00:38:39,083 --> 00:38:42,118
[Matt] I actually did
feel validated.
801
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,787
I know that sounds selfish.
802
00:38:43,789 --> 00:38:47,824
But I had told people for many
years what was going on.
803
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,463
And I had so many people
that I had been around
804
00:38:53,465 --> 00:38:54,931
and grew up around
that messaged me
805
00:38:54,933 --> 00:38:57,267
and reached out to me
on social media,
806
00:38:57,269 --> 00:39:00,437
in person and said, "Hey look,
807
00:39:00,439 --> 00:39:02,639
I'm sorry
I never believed you."
808
00:39:02,641 --> 00:39:05,942
But half of me thought
I did the right thing,
809
00:39:05,944 --> 00:39:08,345
and half of me was like
I just gave up my dad.
810
00:39:08,347 --> 00:39:11,181
Lost a lot of family because
the family didn't want
811
00:39:11,183 --> 00:39:12,849
to admit he did it.
I actually had
812
00:39:12,851 --> 00:39:15,318
a family member tell me that
813
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,654
I should have been grateful
and shut my mouth.
814
00:39:17,656 --> 00:39:21,691
I can't believe you ratted
your dad out.
815
00:39:21,693 --> 00:39:23,426
I can't believe you're a snitch.
816
00:39:25,396 --> 00:39:27,364
Part of me was saddened
because I knew that would be
817
00:39:27,366 --> 00:39:30,266
the last time I ever saw him
in person.
818
00:39:30,268 --> 00:39:32,502
Once he went to prison,
I never reached out again.
819
00:39:32,504 --> 00:39:35,338
I never attempted
to talk to him.
820
00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:38,875
I debated writing him
letters, but I never did.
821
00:39:38,877 --> 00:39:40,944
I wish I would have.
I wish I would have wrote him
822
00:39:40,946 --> 00:39:44,681
and asked him why
and see if I could get him
823
00:39:44,683 --> 00:39:48,451
to tell me why
he did what he did.
824
00:39:48,453 --> 00:39:50,754
Now, that he's gone,
I regret it even more
825
00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:53,656
because I'll never get
the answers that I wanted.
826
00:39:57,161 --> 00:40:00,163
[tense music playing]
827
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,269
[Matt]
He was diagnosed with COVID.
828
00:40:06,271 --> 00:40:09,272
He ended up going into a coma
and while in a coma,
829
00:40:09,274 --> 00:40:10,707
his bowels burst and he died.
830
00:40:13,711 --> 00:40:15,812
I immediately
got super depressed.
831
00:40:15,814 --> 00:40:19,649
I went in the bathroom
and actually got in the shower
832
00:40:19,651 --> 00:40:23,820
and locked myself in the
bathroom for a couple hours.
833
00:40:23,822 --> 00:40:26,356
I didn't wanna come out.
I didn't wanna talk to nobody.
834
00:40:26,358 --> 00:40:27,657
I didn't wanna look at nobody.
835
00:40:29,393 --> 00:40:31,594
I was already feeling guilty.
836
00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:33,363
I was the one
that helped put him there
837
00:40:33,365 --> 00:40:37,100
and I was the one
that made him die alone.
838
00:40:37,102 --> 00:40:41,171
And that's the part
that I felt guilty on.
839
00:40:41,173 --> 00:40:43,006
Wasn't the fact that
he was spending the rest
840
00:40:43,008 --> 00:40:46,009
of his life in prison,
was the fact that he had
841
00:40:46,011 --> 00:40:47,610
to suffer and die alone.
842
00:40:49,947 --> 00:40:53,383
He deserved to live his life
sentence out in prison.
843
00:40:53,385 --> 00:40:56,953
I don't think he deserved to
die the way he did in prison.
844
00:40:56,955 --> 00:40:59,756
And that's something
that I have to figure out
845
00:40:59,758 --> 00:41:00,990
how to deal with.
846
00:41:03,461 --> 00:41:05,929
I miss the good dad
that I grew up with.
847
00:41:05,931 --> 00:41:07,931
I miss the man that taught me
how to shoot a gun
848
00:41:07,933 --> 00:41:09,732
and trap an animal.
849
00:41:09,734 --> 00:41:13,069
And as much as I love him
for being my dad,
850
00:41:13,071 --> 00:41:14,704
part of me hates him
for putting me
851
00:41:14,706 --> 00:41:16,306
through everything
he put me through.
852
00:41:20,277 --> 00:41:23,279
[dramatic music playing]
853
00:41:29,553 --> 00:41:31,855
I don't think there's enough
evidence and enough people
854
00:41:31,857 --> 00:41:34,858
remaining alive that were
around at that point in time
855
00:41:34,860 --> 00:41:37,594
to solve any of those.
856
00:41:37,596 --> 00:41:40,029
The only way that the family
of those three women
857
00:41:40,031 --> 00:41:42,131
will ever know
is if they watch me say
858
00:41:42,133 --> 00:41:45,635
that I think he did it
and that I was there.
859
00:41:45,637 --> 00:41:47,904
That's why it's always been
important for me
860
00:41:47,906 --> 00:41:49,973
to tell my story.
I'd like some of the families
861
00:41:49,975 --> 00:41:51,608
to have some type of closure.
862
00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:55,011
He's never gonna be convicted.
863
00:41:55,013 --> 00:41:57,080
But I can tell you he did it.
864
00:41:57,082 --> 00:41:58,281
And I'm sorry.
865
00:41:59,717 --> 00:42:00,984
I should have screamed louder.
866
00:42:00,986 --> 00:42:02,919
I should have said something.
867
00:42:02,921 --> 00:42:05,889
I did say stuff,
but could have maybe done
868
00:42:05,891 --> 00:42:07,657
something different.
869
00:42:07,659 --> 00:42:12,328
And maybe me telling my story
will also potentially lead
870
00:42:12,330 --> 00:42:15,665
to other things found,
other connections made.
871
00:42:17,668 --> 00:42:20,236
I know there were other murders.
872
00:42:20,238 --> 00:42:23,306
Every story he told me
couldn't have been a lie.
873
00:42:23,308 --> 00:42:26,276
I have no doubt in my mind
that there's many, many more.
874
00:42:26,278 --> 00:42:30,179
[dramatic music playing]