1 00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:07,767 KAREN: Honey, what's my oxygen on? 2 00:00:07,767 --> 00:00:08,900 Okay. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,100 I have lung cancer. 4 00:00:13,567 --> 00:00:15,667 Never smoked, 5 00:00:15,767 --> 00:00:17,667 and ended up with lung cancer. 6 00:00:21,867 --> 00:00:24,600 My memory isn't really great right now. 7 00:00:24,667 --> 00:00:28,200 I want to tell the story while I'm still able. 8 00:00:30,266 --> 00:00:33,066 I think I always knew my brother was mean. 9 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,000 I don't blame my parents. 10 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:39,100 I wish they could have been more aware. 11 00:00:41,166 --> 00:00:43,100 He made it ugly. 12 00:00:43,166 --> 00:00:45,567 He made it unsafe. 13 00:00:45,567 --> 00:00:47,700 He changed everyone in that family, 14 00:00:47,767 --> 00:00:48,967 not in a good way. 15 00:00:50,567 --> 00:00:52,767 That's what he did to our family. 16 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:02,900 [sniffles] 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,600 [sobs] 18 00:01:17,867 --> 00:01:22,300 You know, I don't think I've come across anybody in my years 19 00:01:22,367 --> 00:01:26,667 that actually enjoyed the torment as much as he did. 20 00:01:26,767 --> 00:01:28,567 That's true. 21 00:01:28,667 --> 00:01:29,800 The older you get, the more you 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:30,000 find out that the perfect families weren't perfect, 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,200 find out that the perfect families weren't perfect, 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,000 and we looked like a perfect family. 25 00:01:36,367 --> 00:01:40,567 If I could think of one word that just kind of puts it all 26 00:01:40,567 --> 00:01:42,600 in a bow, it would be secrets. 27 00:01:44,567 --> 00:01:47,467 The secrets that Billy 28 00:01:47,567 --> 00:01:49,200 made us keep, 29 00:01:49,266 --> 00:01:52,467 they made it so we could never be sisters 30 00:01:52,467 --> 00:01:54,266 the way normal sisters are. 31 00:01:55,467 --> 00:01:57,066 KAREN: Whether or not 32 00:01:58,166 --> 00:02:00,000 we have kept secrets is not even up 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000 we have kept secrets is not even up 34 00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:07,467 for debate -- it was nothing but secrets in our house. 35 00:02:07,467 --> 00:02:11,000 Then, when you finally want to tell, 36 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:13,166 it's much more difficult to tell. 37 00:02:14,567 --> 00:02:17,166 Karen has never gotten to tell her story to anybody. 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,066 She lived in silence. 39 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,600 [voice breaking] This could be the last time I see you. 40 00:02:25,667 --> 00:02:29,667 When I walk out after this, 41 00:02:29,667 --> 00:02:30,000 it will be the last time I see you. 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,967 it will be the last time I see you. 43 00:02:31,967 --> 00:02:33,467 Probably. 44 00:02:33,567 --> 00:02:37,166 The whole thing is pretty tragic. 45 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,500 [The Paper Chase's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" plays] 46 00:02:49,567 --> 00:02:51,900 [strings continue playing sinister tune] 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,800 [static crackling] 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,767 [knock at door] [creaking] 49 00:02:58,767 --> 00:03:00,000 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,200 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 51 00:03:04,266 --> 00:03:08,300 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 52 00:03:08,367 --> 00:03:11,467 [water dripping] 53 00:03:11,467 --> 00:03:14,300 [banging on door] [creaking] 54 00:03:14,367 --> 00:03:16,367 [sinister chord strikes] 55 00:03:23,467 --> 00:03:27,500 SUSAN: I always thought it was strange that, since growing up, 56 00:03:27,567 --> 00:03:30,000 Billy wasn't part of my nuclear family. 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:30,100 Billy wasn't part of my nuclear family. 58 00:03:30,166 --> 00:03:33,300 Like, he never lived there with me until I was in first grade. 59 00:03:34,967 --> 00:03:39,800 One day, I woke up, and, um, my mom was making breakfast, 60 00:03:39,867 --> 00:03:42,100 and I'm over looking out 61 00:03:42,166 --> 00:03:45,800 the back door, and I see my brother, like, wrestling in 62 00:03:45,867 --> 00:03:48,767 the backyard with, like, a guy twice the size. 63 00:03:50,166 --> 00:03:52,266 What's going on outside? 64 00:03:52,367 --> 00:03:57,567 And I said, "Mom, who's -- who's fighting with -- who is..." 65 00:03:57,667 --> 00:03:59,767 "That's your brother, Bill." 66 00:03:59,767 --> 00:04:00,000 When I first saw Billy, my dad 67 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,767 When I first saw Billy, my dad 68 00:04:01,767 --> 00:04:05,266 and mom told me he was in a hospital. 69 00:04:05,266 --> 00:04:07,100 He's 19 years older than me. 70 00:04:07,166 --> 00:04:08,767 I knew he had been in Vietnam. 71 00:04:08,767 --> 00:04:11,700 So when he got out of the hospital, 72 00:04:11,767 --> 00:04:14,567 I'm assuming he was hurt in Vietnam, 73 00:04:14,567 --> 00:04:16,767 but that wasn't the truth. 74 00:04:16,867 --> 00:04:20,066 No one ever said why he was in that hospital. 75 00:04:20,066 --> 00:04:23,066 That wasn't something that was talked about. 76 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:26,367 I had no idea what he had done. 77 00:04:26,467 --> 00:04:29,266 And when he showed up, everybody's changed. 78 00:04:29,367 --> 00:04:30,000 Everybody changed. 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:30,667 Everybody changed. 80 00:04:30,767 --> 00:04:35,166 And as a kid, I noticed that -- it's kind of odd, because there 81 00:04:35,266 --> 00:04:37,166 was a lot of things they didn't tell me about Billy, 82 00:04:37,266 --> 00:04:40,266 and they thought it was best that they just didn't tell me. 83 00:04:40,367 --> 00:04:42,100 In my family, 84 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,300 we just didn't talk about certain things. 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,266 She was six years younger than me, 86 00:04:51,367 --> 00:04:55,867 and I never told her he had done something awful. 87 00:04:57,367 --> 00:05:00,000 She had no idea, and I thought he was ready 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,266 She had no idea, and I thought he was ready 89 00:05:01,266 --> 00:05:03,500 to leave the hospital, he must be better, 90 00:05:03,567 --> 00:05:07,567 and that there really wasn't anything to worry about. 91 00:05:09,667 --> 00:05:14,166 I do feel tremendous guilt about if, in retrospect, 92 00:05:14,166 --> 00:05:18,000 had I done something, could have saved her from Billy. 93 00:05:36,567 --> 00:05:41,100 As a kid, Billy got in trouble at school, 94 00:05:41,166 --> 00:05:43,300 got in trouble at home. 95 00:05:43,367 --> 00:05:45,967 WOMAN: Billy, I don't understand why you keep doing this. 96 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,266 And he got beatings 97 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,200 as a repercussion from his behavior. 98 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,000 There was a belt involved, but Billy didn't want anyone to 99 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:00,467 There was a belt involved, but Billy didn't want anyone to 100 00:06:00,567 --> 00:06:05,767 tell him what to do -- after being told not to do something, 101 00:06:05,867 --> 00:06:07,367 he would 102 00:06:07,467 --> 00:06:11,000 go back and do exactly what they said not to do. 103 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:14,100 He was just obstinate. 104 00:06:15,266 --> 00:06:19,467 My mom would be so distressed that he just 105 00:06:19,467 --> 00:06:23,700 wouldn't do the right thing and would "invite" 106 00:06:23,767 --> 00:06:26,100 the punishment. 107 00:06:26,166 --> 00:06:28,200 WOMAN: I want this to be the last time. 108 00:06:28,266 --> 00:06:29,767 Do you understand? 109 00:06:29,767 --> 00:06:30,000 She didn't understand why he would keep just making 110 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,166 She didn't understand why he would keep just making 111 00:06:33,166 --> 00:06:37,767 the choices he made, knowing that he'd be in trouble. 112 00:06:40,266 --> 00:06:43,700 -[whipping noises] -[grunting] 113 00:06:43,767 --> 00:06:46,266 She said it was like 114 00:06:46,367 --> 00:06:50,600 he just was trying to throw it in their face 115 00:06:50,667 --> 00:06:55,066 and get in trouble to show that he couldn't be tamed. 116 00:06:56,667 --> 00:06:58,867 Billy always wanted to be in control. 117 00:07:00,867 --> 00:07:02,367 In retrospect, 118 00:07:02,367 --> 00:07:04,367 I think she wondered, 119 00:07:04,467 --> 00:07:08,266 if that was like a huge signal for how he turned out. 120 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,467 He loved to have power over animals and me. 121 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,266 When I was a little girl, and still today, 122 00:07:27,266 --> 00:07:30,000 I loved cats, always had a cat as a pet, 123 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,800 I loved cats, always had a cat as a pet, 124 00:07:31,867 --> 00:07:34,500 and hurting them came naturally to him. 125 00:07:35,867 --> 00:07:40,200 He would come into a room, and if the cat was eating 126 00:07:40,266 --> 00:07:42,200 or doing something, 127 00:07:42,266 --> 00:07:44,967 he would stomp in and scare 'em 128 00:07:44,967 --> 00:07:47,000 until they would just run off. 129 00:07:48,567 --> 00:07:50,100 I asked him not to do that. 130 00:07:50,166 --> 00:07:52,600 AS KAREN: What is wrong with you? 131 00:07:52,667 --> 00:07:55,400 Billy hated to be challenged about anything, 132 00:07:55,467 --> 00:07:57,967 and when I challenged him, 133 00:07:57,967 --> 00:08:00,000 he got upset with me and cussed at me. 134 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,000 he got upset with me and cussed at me. 135 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:03,066 Shut your mouth! 136 00:08:04,667 --> 00:08:09,667 And he would tell me stories about hurting my pets. 137 00:08:09,767 --> 00:08:12,567 He said, "You know what I like to do to cats? 138 00:08:12,567 --> 00:08:15,166 "Put them in a bag and hang them 139 00:08:15,166 --> 00:08:20,667 from the overpass so semis can hit them." 140 00:08:20,767 --> 00:08:23,166 Why would you say that? That's horrible. 141 00:08:23,266 --> 00:08:27,100 When I reacted, crying, he laughed at that. 142 00:08:27,166 --> 00:08:30,000 He thought that was just great. 143 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:30,500 He thought that was just great. 144 00:08:30,567 --> 00:08:32,867 [laughing] 145 00:08:32,967 --> 00:08:36,200 He had just a almost maniacal kind of laugh. 146 00:08:36,266 --> 00:08:37,367 [laughing] 147 00:08:37,467 --> 00:08:39,367 He thought that was hilarious. 148 00:08:39,367 --> 00:08:41,567 [laughing] 149 00:08:41,667 --> 00:08:44,967 So I tried to minimize the contact that he had with 150 00:08:44,967 --> 00:08:46,700 my animals. 151 00:08:46,767 --> 00:08:49,100 I did do the best I could to keep my distance. 152 00:08:50,467 --> 00:08:54,066 I just tried to forget about how awful he was. 153 00:08:54,066 --> 00:08:57,000 [laughing] 154 00:09:13,066 --> 00:09:16,667 An older brother should watch out 155 00:09:16,667 --> 00:09:18,767 to make sure things 156 00:09:18,767 --> 00:09:20,967 go right, protect you. 157 00:09:21,967 --> 00:09:23,300 That's what a brother should do. 158 00:09:24,567 --> 00:09:28,367 But Billy was not protective or caring. 159 00:09:31,867 --> 00:09:35,467 I remember the sexual abuse starting when I was, like, 160 00:09:35,567 --> 00:09:37,867 four or five, 161 00:09:37,967 --> 00:09:42,100 but it wasn't until years later 162 00:09:42,166 --> 00:09:44,166 that I really 163 00:09:44,166 --> 00:09:48,300 even realized some of that abuse was abuse. 164 00:09:50,567 --> 00:09:53,800 I just thought of what happened to me 165 00:09:53,867 --> 00:09:55,567 as something 166 00:09:55,567 --> 00:09:58,867 mean brothers did to sisters. 167 00:10:03,166 --> 00:10:06,500 It is hard to talk about what he did to me, because 168 00:10:06,567 --> 00:10:08,967 there's still the shame attached even though I know it 169 00:10:08,967 --> 00:10:10,166 wasn't my fault. 170 00:10:12,066 --> 00:10:15,567 Since I didn't understand what was happening, 171 00:10:16,667 --> 00:10:19,500 it didn't seem 172 00:10:19,567 --> 00:10:21,367 abnormal to me. 173 00:10:22,667 --> 00:10:25,166 But I can remember saying I wanted 174 00:10:25,266 --> 00:10:29,867 to tell my mom something that happened. 175 00:10:29,967 --> 00:10:30,000 And I remember him saying, 176 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:30,867 And I remember him saying, 177 00:10:30,967 --> 00:10:33,667 "Oh no, no, no -- you can't do that." 178 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,300 And I said, "Why not?" 179 00:10:39,367 --> 00:10:41,867 And he said, "She won't understand." 180 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:46,066 If I would have reported my own abuse 181 00:10:46,066 --> 00:10:49,000 and kept reporting until it stopped, 182 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:51,700 maybe he wouldn't have hurt so many people. 183 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,667 My abuse was the beginning of keeping secrets, 184 00:10:57,667 --> 00:11:00,000 and secrets are a dangerous thing. 185 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:00,500 and secrets are a dangerous thing. 186 00:11:08,066 --> 00:11:12,200 SUSAN: Karen is six years older than me, and I was just a baby. 187 00:11:12,266 --> 00:11:16,200 But, years later, same thing was done to me. 188 00:11:16,266 --> 00:11:19,000 When I went to school, we had the stranger danger talks. 189 00:11:19,066 --> 00:11:21,867 Nobody ever said the stranger was gonna be your brother. 190 00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:28,066 He would come in my room or when I was taking a shower. 191 00:11:28,066 --> 00:11:30,000 I remember, it was Christmas, 192 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:30,667 I remember, it was Christmas, 193 00:11:31,667 --> 00:11:37,200 and we had, um, Christmas lights in all of our windows. 194 00:11:37,266 --> 00:11:40,000 I just stared at that blue and green Christmas lights. 195 00:11:41,767 --> 00:11:42,834 To this day, 196 00:11:42,867 --> 00:11:44,467 I can't look at blue and green Christmas lights, 197 00:11:44,567 --> 00:11:47,700 just that color together, because that's what I -- 198 00:11:47,767 --> 00:11:49,400 that's what I fixated on. 199 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,867 I didn't tell anybody, because he said he would -- 200 00:11:55,867 --> 00:11:57,266 he would hurt us. 201 00:11:57,266 --> 00:11:59,767 And I always thought that it was just me. 202 00:12:06,166 --> 00:12:09,066 But I wasn't Billy's only victim. 203 00:12:09,066 --> 00:12:11,400 Neither one of us told. 204 00:12:11,467 --> 00:12:14,166 Billy had a way of keeping us quiet. 205 00:12:14,266 --> 00:12:17,400 It really contributed to the fact that Karen and I 206 00:12:17,467 --> 00:12:20,567 never were able to form any kind of sister bond. 207 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,500 Billy encouraged us not to talk or be together. 208 00:12:25,567 --> 00:12:28,100 It kind of kept us apart. 209 00:12:29,467 --> 00:12:30,000 KAREN: At the time, I didn't know it was happening to her. 210 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,567 KAREN: At the time, I didn't know it was happening to her. 211 00:12:32,567 --> 00:12:36,266 I'm surprised I didn't know more, 212 00:12:37,567 --> 00:12:41,100 considering it had been done to me -- with it comes 213 00:12:41,166 --> 00:12:45,900 the guilt of not reporting him for what he did to me. 214 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,867 That could have maybe saved her. 215 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:52,500 SUSAN: Both of us felt guilty. 216 00:12:52,567 --> 00:12:55,166 As an adult, when I told Karen, 217 00:12:55,266 --> 00:12:59,100 it definitely brought us together 218 00:12:59,166 --> 00:13:00,000 in an odd kind of way, 219 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,567 in an odd kind of way, 220 00:13:01,667 --> 00:13:03,166 because only she could understand 221 00:13:03,266 --> 00:13:05,600 what I had gone through. 222 00:13:05,667 --> 00:13:07,900 Do you remember sitting in mom's rec room, 223 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,867 and you had just learned that 224 00:13:10,867 --> 00:13:14,800 he had done that to me. -But I didn't know 225 00:13:14,867 --> 00:13:16,867 the extent to which 226 00:13:16,967 --> 00:13:18,367 it was happening. 227 00:13:18,367 --> 00:13:21,266 Plus I couldn't stop it for me. 228 00:13:21,266 --> 00:13:23,400 How could I stop it for her? 229 00:13:23,467 --> 00:13:25,700 I don't think mom and dad had 230 00:13:25,767 --> 00:13:28,867 a clue that those things could happen, to be honest. 231 00:13:31,166 --> 00:13:33,867 You know, we're talking about how -- how we didn't speak out. 232 00:13:33,967 --> 00:13:35,967 He would have hurt you. He would have hurt me. 233 00:13:35,967 --> 00:13:38,800 Maybe we were children for believing the threats, 234 00:13:38,867 --> 00:13:41,867 but I wouldn't put it past him. 235 00:13:41,867 --> 00:13:43,000 He was brazen. 236 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:45,667 That's a very good word for him, brazen. 237 00:13:45,767 --> 00:13:47,867 But he was also 238 00:13:47,967 --> 00:13:49,667 a fabulous liar. 239 00:13:50,967 --> 00:13:53,066 To think back on the kind of abuse 240 00:13:54,166 --> 00:13:56,100 Billy did, 241 00:13:56,166 --> 00:13:59,567 the type of trauma we experienced, 242 00:13:59,567 --> 00:14:00,000 it seeps into every part of your being. 243 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,667 it seeps into every part of your being. 244 00:14:04,367 --> 00:14:06,000 It's horrible, 245 00:14:06,066 --> 00:14:08,667 and that's 246 00:14:08,767 --> 00:14:11,300 just the tip of the iceberg. 247 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:19,400 KAREN: Billy was a fire bug. 248 00:14:19,467 --> 00:14:23,066 He loved watching things burn -- the house fire we had 249 00:14:23,066 --> 00:14:27,166 was that our home in Maryland -- my sister wasn't yet born. 250 00:14:29,266 --> 00:14:33,200 I can remember clearly, my mom 251 00:14:33,266 --> 00:14:36,266 shook me awake and took me out of the house. 252 00:14:38,266 --> 00:14:40,166 She was panicked. 253 00:14:40,266 --> 00:14:44,266 I can remember standing out in the yard in 254 00:14:44,266 --> 00:14:45,688 the middle of the night, looking back at the house, 255 00:14:45,688 --> 00:14:48,200 the middle of the night, looking back at the house, 256 00:14:48,266 --> 00:14:51,367 watching the flames burn the house 257 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:55,367 and waiting for the fire trucks 258 00:14:55,467 --> 00:14:58,100 and just being very scared. 259 00:14:59,567 --> 00:15:02,166 Billy was standing next to me, 260 00:15:02,266 --> 00:15:05,467 just staring at the flames. 261 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,900 He was very interested in the fire, watching the fire. 262 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:14,400 It was determined that the cause of the fire 263 00:15:14,467 --> 00:15:15,688 was electrical. 264 00:15:15,688 --> 00:15:15,700 was electrical. 265 00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:20,066 But later on, my mom would say 266 00:15:20,066 --> 00:15:24,367 she suspected that Billy started that fire. 267 00:15:24,467 --> 00:15:28,166 We never had any proof, but she just had a feeling. 268 00:15:33,667 --> 00:15:38,467 And there were other fires that kind of surrounded Billy. 269 00:15:39,667 --> 00:15:41,567 SUSAN: Years later, there was another fire in 270 00:15:41,667 --> 00:15:43,600 our neighborhood that was a vacant house. 271 00:15:44,667 --> 00:15:45,688 The police went and talked to my dad. 272 00:15:45,688 --> 00:15:47,266 The police went and talked to my dad. 273 00:15:47,266 --> 00:15:48,867 Billy denied it up and down, 274 00:15:48,967 --> 00:15:51,667 but my dad knew right away he was lying. 275 00:15:51,667 --> 00:15:54,000 I know it really bothered my dad that he could 276 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:58,400 just look him in the eye and not even flinch and lie. 277 00:15:58,467 --> 00:16:02,467 And mom said that she kind of always thought Billy did it, 278 00:16:02,567 --> 00:16:05,000 but he didn't get in trouble. 279 00:16:06,467 --> 00:16:08,800 Billy got away with so much. 280 00:16:20,767 --> 00:16:24,867 KAREN: Billy dropped out of school in 10th grade, 281 00:16:24,967 --> 00:16:28,567 joined the marines, and was shipped off to Vietnam. 282 00:16:30,066 --> 00:16:33,066 When he came home, he brought gifts for everyone. 283 00:16:33,066 --> 00:16:39,567 My gift was these little silky pajama top and pants. 284 00:16:39,567 --> 00:16:41,700 You want to see what Vietnam was like? 285 00:16:41,767 --> 00:16:42,900 Sure. 286 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,688 And then he had photo albums, 287 00:16:45,688 --> 00:16:48,400 And then he had photo albums, 288 00:16:48,467 --> 00:16:50,567 um, from his time over there. 289 00:16:52,166 --> 00:16:55,467 There was a picture of a cute little girl wearing 290 00:16:55,467 --> 00:16:59,967 a similar type of outfit as to what he had brought me. 291 00:16:59,967 --> 00:17:01,300 You see her? 292 00:17:01,367 --> 00:17:04,600 KAREN: It was almost as if he really wanted me to notice 293 00:17:04,667 --> 00:17:07,767 that little girl, kind of connect to her, 294 00:17:07,867 --> 00:17:09,867 because she was about my age. 295 00:17:09,867 --> 00:17:14,166 I can remember saying, "Oh ,she's so cute." 296 00:17:14,266 --> 00:17:15,688 She was nice. 297 00:17:15,688 --> 00:17:16,266 She was nice. 298 00:17:16,266 --> 00:17:19,767 And he said, "Yeah, 299 00:17:21,367 --> 00:17:22,367 but we had to kill her." 300 00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:29,500 I kind of shrunk back. 301 00:17:29,567 --> 00:17:31,000 I remember him smiling. 302 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,500 He enjoyed telling me that, 303 00:17:34,567 --> 00:17:38,467 because it shocked me so much. 304 00:17:39,767 --> 00:17:42,000 There's something really sick about that. 305 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,688 I think he took pleasure in being cruel to anyone. 306 00:17:45,688 --> 00:17:46,667 I think he took pleasure in being cruel to anyone. 307 00:17:57,367 --> 00:18:00,500 One night, I think I was, like, eight. 308 00:18:00,567 --> 00:18:03,266 He was 15 years older than me. 309 00:18:04,266 --> 00:18:07,800 I remember Billy was all dressed up in a nice shirt 310 00:18:07,867 --> 00:18:09,800 and pants, and... 311 00:18:10,867 --> 00:18:14,200 he came downstairs. 312 00:18:14,266 --> 00:18:15,688 He said, "How do I look, mom?" 313 00:18:15,688 --> 00:18:18,266 He said, "How do I look, mom?" 314 00:18:18,367 --> 00:18:20,000 And, 315 00:18:20,066 --> 00:18:24,300 you know, she said, "Great," and he went out that night, 316 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:30,100 and then the next thing I remember is 317 00:18:30,166 --> 00:18:33,567 a man sitting at our kitchen table with my dad, 318 00:18:35,266 --> 00:18:36,300 and he was a sheriff. 319 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:40,266 And he had come for my brother. 320 00:18:41,767 --> 00:18:44,867 I was kind of out in the hallway outside the kitchen, 321 00:18:44,967 --> 00:18:45,688 kind of peeking in, and I can remember my dad sitting at 322 00:18:45,688 --> 00:18:48,700 kind of peeking in, and I can remember my dad sitting at 323 00:18:48,767 --> 00:18:51,667 the kitchen table, just desperation, 324 00:18:51,767 --> 00:18:55,000 and putting his head down onto his fists, 325 00:18:55,066 --> 00:18:58,900 and my mom just standing off 326 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,166 outside the kitchen, crying. 327 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:05,100 I didn't know what had happened. 328 00:19:05,166 --> 00:19:07,967 I just knew it was something bad. 329 00:19:09,266 --> 00:19:13,166 Later on, I found out that my father had called the sheriff 330 00:19:13,166 --> 00:19:15,688 to come over, because evidently, my brother had confessed to 331 00:19:15,688 --> 00:19:18,767 to come over, because evidently, my brother had confessed to 332 00:19:18,767 --> 00:19:21,467 my dad that he had killed a girl. 333 00:19:28,166 --> 00:19:31,967 My dad called the sheriff, and they came, 334 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:34,800 and they took my brother away. 335 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,367 I remember them putting handcuffs on Billy. 336 00:19:40,667 --> 00:19:42,667 I can remember them putting him in the car. 337 00:19:44,166 --> 00:19:47,200 I always knew my brother was mean, 338 00:19:47,266 --> 00:19:50,000 but, at this point, 339 00:19:50,066 --> 00:19:53,367 I was realizing how evil he probably was. 340 00:19:56,667 --> 00:19:56,748 He had raped and murdered the woman. 341 00:19:56,748 --> 00:20:00,300 He had raped and murdered the woman. 342 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:07,900 But he was found not guilty by reason of insanity. 343 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,300 I remember hearing someone say because she probably 344 00:20:12,367 --> 00:20:16,800 had her hair up like a Vietnam girl, 345 00:20:16,867 --> 00:20:20,100 and he probably had a flashback. 346 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,700 He was sentenced to go to a mental institution 347 00:20:25,767 --> 00:20:26,748 in Maryland, where he remained for four years. 348 00:20:26,748 --> 00:20:29,400 in Maryland, where he remained for four years. 349 00:20:31,867 --> 00:20:37,667 Not long after that, our family decided to move away. 350 00:20:37,667 --> 00:20:40,166 The years that Billy was gone, 351 00:20:40,166 --> 00:20:42,100 it was definitely better without him. 352 00:20:54,066 --> 00:20:56,600 Did you know about what happened back east, 353 00:20:56,667 --> 00:20:56,748 before we moved out here? 354 00:20:56,748 --> 00:20:57,967 before we moved out here? 355 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,467 That's why we moved out here. 356 00:21:00,467 --> 00:21:02,266 But did you know that that happened, 357 00:21:02,367 --> 00:21:03,767 and the whole time I was growing up, 358 00:21:03,867 --> 00:21:04,967 you never told me? 359 00:21:06,066 --> 00:21:10,000 Um, I knew about it, but I was told 360 00:21:10,066 --> 00:21:12,066 he -- he was sick. 361 00:21:12,066 --> 00:21:13,867 Why do you go to a hospital? 362 00:21:13,867 --> 00:21:15,667 -You're sick, -Right. 363 00:21:15,667 --> 00:21:17,567 and you need to get well, 364 00:21:17,667 --> 00:21:21,166 and they certainly wouldn't let you out if you weren't well. 365 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:23,567 That was my thinking. 366 00:21:23,567 --> 00:21:25,467 Hm. 367 00:21:26,867 --> 00:21:30,100 I just thought he was in the hospital from Vietnam. 368 00:21:30,166 --> 00:21:31,266 I had no idea. 369 00:21:34,367 --> 00:21:37,000 Their point of not telling me was to protect me. 370 00:21:37,066 --> 00:21:39,266 Whether that was a good thing to do 371 00:21:39,367 --> 00:21:41,900 or was it a bad thing to do, I don't know. 372 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,700 But I felt betrayed. 373 00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:46,867 By not telling me, 374 00:21:48,266 --> 00:21:50,100 they were keeping me in danger. 375 00:21:51,266 --> 00:21:52,867 KAREN: I was a little bit nervous about having him 376 00:21:52,967 --> 00:21:55,000 come home. 377 00:21:55,066 --> 00:21:56,748 I thought they'd fixed him. 378 00:21:56,748 --> 00:21:58,266 I thought they'd fixed him. 379 00:21:58,367 --> 00:22:00,367 I thought it was over. 380 00:22:00,467 --> 00:22:01,467 But it wasn't. 381 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,667 Later that very night, he assaulted me. 382 00:22:09,867 --> 00:22:11,667 I thought I should tell my parents, 383 00:22:11,767 --> 00:22:16,367 but everybody was so happy to have him home that I didn't 384 00:22:16,367 --> 00:22:19,467 want to step on anyone's happiness. 385 00:22:21,367 --> 00:22:22,400 So I didn't tell. 386 00:22:35,066 --> 00:22:37,900 When Billy was out, 387 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,900 he's constantly looking for prey. 388 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,667 That's all he would be doing. 389 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:46,400 He was prowler. He prowled. 390 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:51,100 And in the '70s, there were quite a few hitchhikers, 391 00:22:51,166 --> 00:22:54,567 And most of the hitchhikers that we would see were women. 392 00:22:56,266 --> 00:22:56,748 On any given day, I could be playing Barbies. 393 00:22:56,748 --> 00:23:00,066 On any given day, I could be playing Barbies. 394 00:23:00,066 --> 00:23:03,467 Bill just shows up, middle of the day. 395 00:23:03,467 --> 00:23:05,767 Um, "Hey mom, yeah, I'm gonna take Susie. 396 00:23:05,867 --> 00:23:07,200 We're gonna go get some ice cream." 397 00:23:08,367 --> 00:23:10,867 I would look at my mom like -- like, 398 00:23:10,967 --> 00:23:13,767 "I don't want to go," and she would say, "Just go. 399 00:23:13,867 --> 00:23:15,200 Don't get him upset." 400 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:20,000 But instead of going to get ice cream, 401 00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:24,667 we just got in the truck, and the first hitchhiker we'd see, 402 00:23:24,667 --> 00:23:26,748 he'd slow down and ask if they wanted to get in. 403 00:23:26,748 --> 00:23:27,100 he'd slow down and ask if they wanted to get in. 404 00:23:28,367 --> 00:23:30,567 When a hitchhiker would see us, 405 00:23:30,567 --> 00:23:32,867 they didn't have to think twice about getting in the truck. 406 00:23:32,867 --> 00:23:34,166 Where you headed? 407 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:37,767 SUSAN: You know, you're gonna get in a car 408 00:23:37,867 --> 00:23:40,967 if you've got a little first grader with pigtails sitting 409 00:23:40,967 --> 00:23:45,500 next to a pretty handsome-looking guy, you know? 410 00:23:45,567 --> 00:23:46,467 I was the bait. 411 00:23:47,967 --> 00:23:51,367 Having his little sister in the car 412 00:23:51,367 --> 00:23:54,767 was just his way of saying, "Trust me." 413 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,066 But as soon as they got in, he pulled me out, 414 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:05,000 and I'm in the back of the truck, 415 00:24:05,066 --> 00:24:07,266 with the SnugTop on. 416 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,266 It has a little latch, and you can't get out. 417 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,300 And then we would drive a little bit, and I'm locked in there, 418 00:24:18,567 --> 00:24:20,367 and then we'd stop. 419 00:24:20,367 --> 00:24:21,567 He'd turned the music up. 420 00:24:21,667 --> 00:24:23,200 I couldn't hear what was going on. 421 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,748 But anything could have happened. 422 00:24:26,748 --> 00:24:27,100 But anything could have happened. 423 00:24:27,166 --> 00:24:30,367 Many hitchhikers disappeared during that time. 424 00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:45,567 From when Billy got in trouble as 425 00:24:45,567 --> 00:24:49,100 a little kid, fire seemed to play a role, 426 00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:56,166 and he learned quickly that fire covers up a lot of things. 427 00:24:56,166 --> 00:24:56,748 One time, we were eating dinner, 428 00:24:56,748 --> 00:24:58,767 One time, we were eating dinner, 429 00:24:58,767 --> 00:25:00,400 and Bill came in, 430 00:25:02,567 --> 00:25:06,000 and he said, "My car caught on fire." 431 00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:08,166 My dad was really upset. 432 00:25:08,166 --> 00:25:10,567 I think this was the second truck that burned. 433 00:25:10,667 --> 00:25:12,400 He had two trucks burn. 434 00:25:12,467 --> 00:25:16,467 Had my car just gone up in flames, 435 00:25:16,467 --> 00:25:18,600 I don't think the first thing I would 436 00:25:18,667 --> 00:25:20,700 have done is run to my parents' house. 437 00:25:20,767 --> 00:25:22,567 I think the first thing I would have done 438 00:25:22,567 --> 00:25:25,600 is call the police, and that was never done. 439 00:25:25,667 --> 00:25:26,748 He said it was an electrical problem, and it just burned up. 440 00:25:26,748 --> 00:25:30,266 He said it was an electrical problem, and it just burned up. 441 00:25:30,367 --> 00:25:32,967 It's difficult to believe that a brand-new truck 442 00:25:32,967 --> 00:25:35,867 could suddenly be engulfed in flames. 443 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,467 It didn't just spontaneously combust. 444 00:25:46,967 --> 00:25:50,567 I didn't know this at the time, but I found out later, 445 00:25:51,867 --> 00:25:54,567 Katherine Devine was 14. 446 00:25:54,567 --> 00:25:56,748 She was from the Queen Anne area in Seattle. 447 00:25:56,748 --> 00:25:58,166 She was from the Queen Anne area in Seattle. 448 00:25:58,166 --> 00:25:59,767 She was an average kid. 449 00:26:00,767 --> 00:26:03,500 I mean, she wasn't a runaway, she wasn't a prostitute. 450 00:26:03,567 --> 00:26:05,900 She had a boyfriend fight with her mom 451 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,266 like everybody has a boyfriend fight 452 00:26:07,367 --> 00:26:10,867 with their mom, and she wanted to go down to see 453 00:26:10,967 --> 00:26:13,900 her cousin, and her cousin lived in Oregon. 454 00:26:15,266 --> 00:26:18,867 Back then, they hitchhiked, and that's where she met Bill. 455 00:26:18,967 --> 00:26:22,800 My family had a truck stop, and he worked at the truck stop. 456 00:26:22,867 --> 00:26:26,500 That next day, someone at the truck stop looked in 457 00:26:26,567 --> 00:26:26,748 the back of his truck, 458 00:26:26,748 --> 00:26:27,700 the back of his truck, 459 00:26:27,767 --> 00:26:31,667 and he saw a sleeping bag that was covered in blood, 460 00:26:31,767 --> 00:26:35,166 and Billy saw him looking in the back of his truck. 461 00:26:36,166 --> 00:26:37,200 In hindsight, 462 00:26:37,266 --> 00:26:40,000 when I looked back at his truck burning down -- 463 00:26:40,066 --> 00:26:42,567 he did it just to get rid of evidence. 464 00:26:43,667 --> 00:26:45,266 It's burning, and it's gone. 465 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:54,867 One afternoon, 466 00:26:54,967 --> 00:26:56,367 when I got home from school, 467 00:26:57,367 --> 00:27:02,000 I ran to get the paper, and on the front page 468 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:06,367 was this huge headline -- "Body Found on Capitol Peak." 469 00:27:06,467 --> 00:27:08,000 Mom, you're not going to believe this. 470 00:27:08,066 --> 00:27:09,333 What is it, honey? 471 00:27:09,367 --> 00:27:14,600 My mom was cooking dinner, and I said, "Mom, listen to this." 472 00:27:14,667 --> 00:27:18,066 A girl my age dead up on Capitol Peak. 473 00:27:20,266 --> 00:27:20,567 KAREN: I had just been to that very area where 474 00:27:20,567 --> 00:27:23,367 KAREN: I had just been to that very area where 475 00:27:23,467 --> 00:27:26,867 she was discovered with my 9th grade science class. 476 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,900 And I started reading the gruesome details. 477 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,967 "There they found the partially nude body of a young girl." 478 00:27:38,967 --> 00:27:43,100 KAREN: Her body had just been left out in the open. 479 00:27:43,166 --> 00:27:46,300 There was this picture of her clothing. 480 00:27:49,467 --> 00:27:50,567 And more descriptions about her. 481 00:27:50,567 --> 00:27:52,367 And more descriptions about her. 482 00:27:52,367 --> 00:27:55,500 Billy was there, and his body language 483 00:27:55,567 --> 00:27:59,200 showed that he was bothered. 484 00:27:59,266 --> 00:28:01,867 "They're still looking for her left shoe, 485 00:28:01,967 --> 00:28:03,367 "her purse, and her wallet. 486 00:28:03,367 --> 00:28:05,100 The victim was wearing blue jeans." 487 00:28:05,166 --> 00:28:08,467 And my brother said, "Would you just stop that? 488 00:28:08,467 --> 00:28:11,166 Just stop." -That's enough! 489 00:28:13,467 --> 00:28:15,000 AS KAREN: What is your problem? 490 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,367 KAREN: And I was like, okay. 491 00:28:19,367 --> 00:28:20,567 I said, "I'm just reading the paper." 492 00:28:20,567 --> 00:28:21,867 I said, "I'm just reading the paper." 493 00:28:21,967 --> 00:28:23,700 He said, "Yeah, I've heard enough." 494 00:28:26,166 --> 00:28:28,300 I can remember the look on his face as he 495 00:28:28,367 --> 00:28:32,367 sat there, kind of like this, and he put his head 496 00:28:32,367 --> 00:28:35,600 in his hand, and it was like, "Stop it." 497 00:28:35,667 --> 00:28:37,100 Stop! 498 00:28:38,367 --> 00:28:39,467 KAREN: He said, "I don't wanna hear that." 499 00:28:43,767 --> 00:28:46,600 But I didn't think too much about the case 500 00:28:46,667 --> 00:28:50,567 for years, because they didn't bring anybody up on charges. 501 00:28:50,567 --> 00:28:50,800 for years, because they didn't bring anybody up on charges. 502 00:28:55,266 --> 00:28:58,166 SUSAN: Even though they had suspicion of Bill, 503 00:28:58,166 --> 00:29:00,266 they never had enough to arrest him. 504 00:29:00,266 --> 00:29:02,400 They never really knew who killed her. 505 00:29:02,467 --> 00:29:06,867 And, at the time, we had Ted Bundy, and she was 506 00:29:06,867 --> 00:29:10,367 listed as a possible Bundy murder, because she fit 507 00:29:10,467 --> 00:29:11,367 the description. 508 00:29:13,166 --> 00:29:15,200 We thought Bundy killed this girl. 509 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,367 It was around Thanksgiving, and we were eating dinner. 510 00:29:31,467 --> 00:29:36,600 It was snowing -- snow is not really common where we live, 511 00:29:36,667 --> 00:29:39,166 and if you have a big truck, 512 00:29:39,266 --> 00:29:40,900 you're gonna go out and help people. 513 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,767 And right after dinner, he just left and said 514 00:29:43,767 --> 00:29:46,767 he was gonna go help pull people out of the ditch. 515 00:29:47,967 --> 00:29:50,567 But he's not going out there to help women. 516 00:29:50,567 --> 00:29:51,467 But he's not going out there to help women. 517 00:29:51,567 --> 00:29:53,567 He was going out to find prey. 518 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:03,500 The next morning, 519 00:30:03,567 --> 00:30:06,166 Billy was arrested. 520 00:30:06,266 --> 00:30:10,000 The day after Thanksgiving, I walked into the kitchen, 521 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:11,767 saw my mom crying. 522 00:30:14,467 --> 00:30:17,100 He had actually raped a woman while 523 00:30:17,166 --> 00:30:20,567 he was supposedly out doing his charitable service. 524 00:30:20,567 --> 00:30:21,266 he was supposedly out doing his charitable service. 525 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,467 For some reason, he let her live. 526 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,066 SUSAN: He was convicted of kidnapping 527 00:30:30,066 --> 00:30:32,467 and of rape 528 00:30:32,567 --> 00:30:35,166 and was sentenced to 48 years. 529 00:30:35,266 --> 00:30:39,500 The entire family was upset, but not me. 530 00:30:39,567 --> 00:30:40,967 I was thrilled. 531 00:31:01,166 --> 00:31:05,266 It was 11 years after my abuse had stopped. 532 00:31:05,266 --> 00:31:09,166 In 1986, I was finishing my student teaching 533 00:31:09,166 --> 00:31:12,100 and living at my mom's house, 534 00:31:12,166 --> 00:31:14,900 and I was going through papers, 535 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,100 and there was, like, a discharge plan. 536 00:31:19,166 --> 00:31:20,567 I heard that he got 48 years for rape, 537 00:31:20,567 --> 00:31:21,100 I heard that he got 48 years for rape, 538 00:31:21,166 --> 00:31:24,266 but he was eligible for parole after three. 539 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,800 If Billy were to get out, 540 00:31:29,867 --> 00:31:32,867 he was gonna have a job at the truck stop, and he was gonna 541 00:31:32,967 --> 00:31:36,400 live at my mom's house, and I read that, 542 00:31:36,467 --> 00:31:38,967 and I just freaked out. 543 00:31:38,967 --> 00:31:42,166 All I thought about were all the kids he could live around. 544 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:45,767 Here he was in the system, but nobody knew 545 00:31:45,867 --> 00:31:47,100 what a pervert he was. 546 00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:50,567 I wanted it in his record that 547 00:31:50,567 --> 00:31:50,800 I wanted it in his record that 548 00:31:50,867 --> 00:31:53,367 he was to be nowhere near children. 549 00:31:53,367 --> 00:31:56,800 That's when I went to Thurston County Sheriffs, 550 00:31:56,867 --> 00:32:00,367 and I said I need to talk to somebody about my brother. 551 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,600 I went in to tell them about my abuse, 552 00:32:12,667 --> 00:32:16,266 but pretty quickly, we weren't talking about my abuse anymore. 553 00:32:16,266 --> 00:32:18,100 DETECTIVE: Have a seat, please. 554 00:32:18,166 --> 00:32:20,567 SUSAN: A detective came out and said, 555 00:32:20,567 --> 00:32:23,100 "Let me tell you why I'm interested in your brother." 556 00:32:24,266 --> 00:32:28,467 He had an 8 x 10 picture of Katherine Devine on his desk. 557 00:32:30,567 --> 00:32:33,700 And he said, "She's my very first victim, 558 00:32:33,767 --> 00:32:35,967 "and I think your brother did this. 559 00:32:35,967 --> 00:32:36,341 Is there anything that you can share with me?" 560 00:32:36,341 --> 00:32:37,667 Is there anything that you can share with me?" 561 00:32:37,667 --> 00:32:43,266 Anything at all that can help me close this case. 562 00:32:43,266 --> 00:32:46,900 He still had that picture, 28 years later on his desk. 563 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,367 He wasn't gonna retire, 564 00:32:48,467 --> 00:32:51,100 he said, until he found out who did that. 565 00:32:51,166 --> 00:32:54,867 They always knew that the body was found this day. 566 00:32:54,967 --> 00:32:58,166 His truck burned this day, and right before that, we have 567 00:32:58,266 --> 00:33:00,166 a witness that sees blood 568 00:33:00,166 --> 00:33:03,867 and a sleeping bag and one boot in the back of his truck, 569 00:33:03,967 --> 00:33:05,600 just blows up down the road. 570 00:33:07,467 --> 00:33:10,467 There is one thing that comes to mind. 571 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,867 When I was younger, he would bring me along. 572 00:33:13,867 --> 00:33:17,266 They were very interested when I told him that he 573 00:33:17,367 --> 00:33:21,567 would use me as bait to pick up women hitchhikers. 574 00:33:21,667 --> 00:33:24,600 What I told the police was enough for them to get 575 00:33:24,667 --> 00:33:27,700 a warrant the next day and get that DNA from Billy. 576 00:33:31,467 --> 00:33:36,066 When he called, I answered the phone, and he was mad. 577 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,500 [angrily] "Let me talk to mom." 578 00:33:38,567 --> 00:33:40,266 I mean, that's how he said it, [angrily] "Let me talk to mom." 579 00:33:40,367 --> 00:33:42,700 [normally] And I'm like, "Well, what happened?" 580 00:33:44,266 --> 00:33:46,667 And I said, "I went to the police, 581 00:33:46,667 --> 00:33:49,000 and I told him what you did to me," 582 00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:52,100 and he was saying, "You know what they do to people in here 583 00:33:52,166 --> 00:33:54,000 if you do stuff like that?" 584 00:33:54,066 --> 00:33:57,367 He said, "They kill guys in here for that." 585 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:00,066 I'm like, too bad. 586 00:34:00,066 --> 00:34:02,066 You know, and I said, "I'm gonna make sure 587 00:34:02,066 --> 00:34:03,200 you don't get out." 588 00:34:15,266 --> 00:34:18,900 He was sentenced to life in prison without parole. 589 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,500 He looked right at me when he was 590 00:34:20,567 --> 00:34:23,467 found guilty, and I just flipped him the bird. 591 00:34:23,567 --> 00:34:25,600 It was the best feeling in the world. 592 00:34:25,667 --> 00:34:27,166 It felt great. 593 00:34:29,166 --> 00:34:30,667 In the end, 594 00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:33,300 I really loved knowing that it 595 00:34:33,367 --> 00:34:35,867 was his little sister that got him. 596 00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,000 I don't like to call myself a victim, 597 00:34:39,066 --> 00:34:41,266 because I've learned to say I'm a survivor. 598 00:34:51,367 --> 00:34:53,400 My other brother called me. 599 00:34:53,467 --> 00:34:54,600 AS SUSAN: Hey, what's up? 600 00:34:54,667 --> 00:34:56,367 SUSAN: And I remember, I was in my house. 601 00:34:56,367 --> 00:35:00,066 I was walking up the stairs, and he said, "Susie! 602 00:35:00,066 --> 00:35:01,700 Susie! Bill died." 603 00:35:02,767 --> 00:35:05,500 And I said, "Well, did he die like mom and dad? 604 00:35:05,567 --> 00:35:06,341 Like, was it peaceful? Was he asleep?" 605 00:35:06,341 --> 00:35:08,567 Like, was it peaceful? Was he asleep?" 606 00:35:08,667 --> 00:35:11,300 And he said, "He had a heart attack. He just died." 607 00:35:11,367 --> 00:35:13,266 Okay. So he was aware he was dying. 608 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:18,467 And I was so happy, meaning that in the end, 609 00:35:18,567 --> 00:35:21,767 when he was breathing his last breath, he knew... 610 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,967 he knew that nobody cared anymore. 611 00:35:27,367 --> 00:35:30,166 He was awake. He didn't die in his sleep. 612 00:35:30,166 --> 00:35:31,767 That makes me feel better, 613 00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:35,166 knowing that he had some terror. 614 00:35:52,667 --> 00:35:54,567 SUSAN: Telling my secret saved lives. 615 00:35:55,667 --> 00:35:56,900 I know that for a fact, 616 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,000 but our family was still fractured, because... 617 00:36:03,367 --> 00:36:04,266 they weren't real happy 618 00:36:04,266 --> 00:36:06,341 I went to the police in the beginning. 619 00:36:06,341 --> 00:36:06,500 I went to the police in the beginning. 620 00:36:06,567 --> 00:36:08,166 KAREN: I know a lot of the family just 621 00:36:08,166 --> 00:36:11,367 did not want her to bring anything up. 622 00:36:11,367 --> 00:36:13,166 I wish I had been more supportive, 623 00:36:13,266 --> 00:36:16,767 but at the time, he was in prison. 624 00:36:16,767 --> 00:36:19,567 I didn't know exactly what she was reporting on. 625 00:36:21,166 --> 00:36:24,266 I was kind of like, what's the point? 626 00:36:25,667 --> 00:36:28,467 The only outcome 627 00:36:28,467 --> 00:36:31,900 is going to be more publicity. 628 00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:41,266 SUSAN: Karen and I cut all ties. 629 00:36:42,266 --> 00:36:45,900 We didn't talk until last year, and then I learned 630 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,467 she was sick. 631 00:36:47,567 --> 00:36:50,100 Meeting for this brought us together. 632 00:36:52,166 --> 00:36:54,900 It made us talk about things 633 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,166 that we probably should have talked about years ago. 634 00:36:58,266 --> 00:37:01,867 I wasn't -- I want to be clear. 635 00:37:01,867 --> 00:37:04,467 I wasn't upset he was turned in, 636 00:37:04,567 --> 00:37:06,341 just kind of the way it was done. 637 00:37:06,341 --> 00:37:07,467 just kind of the way it was done. 638 00:37:07,467 --> 00:37:09,066 It was pretty emotional at the time, 639 00:37:09,066 --> 00:37:10,667 and it was just like... -Yeah. 640 00:37:11,867 --> 00:37:13,967 I would have liked to have known in advance. 641 00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:16,367 But I knew going in, 642 00:37:16,467 --> 00:37:18,100 I wasn't gonna have any support. 643 00:37:18,166 --> 00:37:19,567 I knew they were gonna be mad. 644 00:37:19,667 --> 00:37:20,867 Mom was furious. 645 00:37:20,867 --> 00:37:25,100 Yes, but that's not how I would have reacted. 646 00:37:25,166 --> 00:37:27,567 I wouldn't have tried to talk you out of it. 647 00:37:27,667 --> 00:37:29,266 I would not have. 648 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,000 We've gone many years without speaking. 649 00:37:39,066 --> 00:37:42,000 And secrets are a dangerous thing. 650 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,767 Deciding to do this interview 651 00:37:44,767 --> 00:37:48,400 opened up communication between us that wasn't there. 652 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,367 SUSAN: I think he knew he was gonna get away with things. 653 00:37:53,367 --> 00:37:54,400 Look at it. 654 00:37:54,467 --> 00:37:58,166 He killed someone in Maryland, 655 00:37:58,266 --> 00:38:00,467 and he didn't go to jail. 656 00:38:00,467 --> 00:38:03,166 -He went to a hospital. -Yeah. 657 00:38:03,266 --> 00:38:06,341 So I think he certainly thought 658 00:38:06,341 --> 00:38:08,300 So I think he certainly thought 659 00:38:08,367 --> 00:38:09,867 the consequences 660 00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:16,100 didn't apply to him the same as other people. 661 00:38:19,266 --> 00:38:21,100 As an adult, 662 00:38:21,166 --> 00:38:23,266 I became a teacher of young children, 663 00:38:24,266 --> 00:38:27,467 and I made it a point 664 00:38:28,567 --> 00:38:30,567 that 665 00:38:30,567 --> 00:38:33,967 children knew they were in charge of their own body. 666 00:38:33,967 --> 00:38:35,600 When something happens, 667 00:38:35,667 --> 00:38:36,341 you say, "Don't do that." 668 00:38:36,341 --> 00:38:38,066 you say, "Don't do that." 669 00:38:38,066 --> 00:38:40,166 That makes me feel very proud 670 00:38:41,867 --> 00:38:43,367 that a lot of kids were 671 00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:47,166 helped by that. 672 00:38:47,166 --> 00:38:49,667 SUSAN: All the DNA cases that are popping up, 673 00:38:49,767 --> 00:38:53,467 would it surprise me if another DNA match came up from 674 00:38:53,467 --> 00:38:55,567 some cold case? Not at all. -Not at all. 675 00:38:55,667 --> 00:38:58,667 -Not at all, -I agree. 676 00:38:58,667 --> 00:39:01,200 because hitchhikers, they were everywhere, 677 00:39:01,266 --> 00:39:03,100 especially outside the truck stop. 678 00:39:03,166 --> 00:39:04,266 Yeah. 679 00:39:15,467 --> 00:39:17,467 SUSAN: I hope Karen is proud of me. 680 00:39:17,567 --> 00:39:19,667 I think she is. 681 00:39:19,667 --> 00:39:22,266 And I've learned things about her and how 682 00:39:22,367 --> 00:39:24,700 she felt about things that I didn't know. 683 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,367 KAREN: Well, I think Billy did 684 00:39:30,467 --> 00:39:32,767 a lot of damage in our family. 685 00:39:32,767 --> 00:39:35,967 I think we're all victims of Billy in so many ways. 686 00:39:35,967 --> 00:39:36,341 We're just kind of the... 687 00:39:36,341 --> 00:39:37,500 We're just kind of the... 688 00:39:37,567 --> 00:39:38,900 [sniffles] 689 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,166 the casualties that he left in his wake, 690 00:39:41,266 --> 00:39:45,100 -Yeah. -and many people want to forget 691 00:39:45,166 --> 00:39:47,900 what he did, and it does need to be mentioned. 692 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,467 But I think I'm about all talked out on Billy. 693 00:39:51,567 --> 00:39:54,266 I would like to put him to rest for 694 00:39:54,367 --> 00:39:57,800 the rest of my life, to be honest. 695 00:39:57,867 --> 00:40:01,000 I'd like to end everything on a good note. 696 00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:04,667 I am glad to be here with you. 697 00:40:06,066 --> 00:40:06,341 I'm glad we're connecting back together. 698 00:40:06,341 --> 00:40:10,166 I'm glad we're connecting back together. 699 00:40:10,266 --> 00:40:13,367 I think it was important that we reconnected when we did. 700 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:20,900 I was nervous about being here together and being sick. 701 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,400 This process takes a lot out of me, 702 00:40:24,567 --> 00:40:27,967 and I had to weigh 703 00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:31,767 whether it was worth the exertion, but... 704 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,967 I believe in doing the right thing, 705 00:40:34,967 --> 00:40:36,341 and I think this was the right thing. 706 00:40:36,341 --> 00:40:36,767 and I think this was the right thing. 707 00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:55,367 The overall thing that I got 708 00:40:55,467 --> 00:40:57,567 ahead of this was 709 00:40:57,567 --> 00:41:02,000 just the unconditional love that we have for each other, 710 00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:05,266 which I never thought was possible, 711 00:41:05,266 --> 00:41:06,341 to be honest. 712 00:41:06,341 --> 00:41:06,367 to be honest. 713 00:41:06,367 --> 00:41:08,567 I got my sister back. 714 00:41:08,667 --> 00:41:10,166 It's pretty amazing, 715 00:41:10,166 --> 00:41:13,467 two sisters that were always at odds, 716 00:41:13,567 --> 00:41:17,166 in the very end, had a common purpose, 717 00:41:17,266 --> 00:41:20,867 and it's been months now, and every day, 718 00:41:20,967 --> 00:41:24,767 something new comes in my head about what I learned about her. 719 00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:28,867 I know she was glad she did this. 720 00:41:28,967 --> 00:41:32,266 Just the smile on her face afterwards. 721 00:41:32,367 --> 00:41:34,000 She just felt listened to. 722 00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:36,341 She kind of always wanted to 723 00:41:36,341 --> 00:41:37,467 She kind of always wanted to 724 00:41:37,467 --> 00:41:38,967 have the last word, 725 00:41:40,467 --> 00:41:44,166 and she just tied up all those loose ends, 726 00:41:44,266 --> 00:41:48,066 told her story, and then let go. 727 00:41:49,867 --> 00:41:54,667 Looking back, I know that she felt that it was a good -- 728 00:41:54,667 --> 00:41:56,800 it was a good way to end. 729 00:41:56,867 --> 00:41:59,400 If you have the opportunity to tell a story that can make 730 00:41:59,467 --> 00:42:01,266 a difference, you tell it. 731 00:42:01,367 --> 00:42:03,967 She couldn't have done it without me, and I couldn't have 732 00:42:03,967 --> 00:42:04,900 done it without her.