1 00:00:03,300 --> 00:00:05,266 MICHAEL: I've never given an interview 2 00:00:05,266 --> 00:00:07,867 about Marc or his crimes. 3 00:00:07,967 --> 00:00:09,166 This is the first. 4 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:13,400 Marc does know, I'm -- I'm doing the interview. 5 00:00:13,467 --> 00:00:17,166 I felt the need to kind of ask him if he was okay with it. 6 00:00:17,266 --> 00:00:20,667 He was -- was supportive of it. 7 00:00:22,467 --> 00:00:23,567 It was definitely kind of 8 00:00:23,667 --> 00:00:25,567 a relief and kind of made the decision, 9 00:00:25,667 --> 00:00:28,667 um, for me a little easier. 10 00:00:28,767 --> 00:00:30,000 If he had said no, that he wasn't supportive of it, 11 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,700 If he had said no, that he wasn't supportive of it, 12 00:00:31,767 --> 00:00:34,867 I think it still would have been important for me to 13 00:00:34,967 --> 00:00:36,300 tell it. 14 00:00:36,367 --> 00:00:39,667 I don't know other people's background and their stories, 15 00:00:39,667 --> 00:00:43,000 but I do know his, and I just feel like people kind of need 16 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:45,367 to know more information. 17 00:00:45,467 --> 00:00:47,300 From day one regarding the case, 18 00:00:47,367 --> 00:00:51,367 there just wasn't enough back story, kind of what led 19 00:00:51,367 --> 00:00:54,767 up to the year and the days of the crimes. 20 00:00:54,767 --> 00:00:57,400 So I just feel like it was important, 21 00:00:57,467 --> 00:01:00,000 just to kind of express my side of the story. 22 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,867 just to kind of express my side of the story. 23 00:01:25,667 --> 00:01:27,867 There's definitely two sides to every story, 24 00:01:27,867 --> 00:01:30,000 and, uh, I definitely think there's, you know, two sides 25 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,467 and, uh, I definitely think there's, you know, two sides 26 00:01:31,567 --> 00:01:34,367 to him -- the one side, you know, 27 00:01:34,367 --> 00:01:39,967 of being a loving family member, brother. 28 00:01:39,967 --> 00:01:42,200 And then, you know, the other side 29 00:01:42,266 --> 00:01:45,767 that I think was just his dark side. 30 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,667 He wasn't 31 00:02:04,667 --> 00:02:08,100 okay with this other side, and he didn't embrace it. 32 00:02:08,166 --> 00:02:09,667 He was trying to -- to fight it 33 00:02:09,767 --> 00:02:14,200 and to overcome it, and he, you know, lost that -- 34 00:02:14,266 --> 00:02:15,867 that battle, obviously. 35 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,000 [The Paper Chase's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" plays] 36 00:02:42,066 --> 00:02:44,367 [strings continue playing sinister tune] 37 00:02:44,467 --> 00:02:46,266 [static crackling] 38 00:02:48,667 --> 00:02:51,200 [knock at door] [creaking] 39 00:02:51,266 --> 00:02:56,600 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 40 00:02:56,667 --> 00:03:00,000 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 41 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:00,767 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 42 00:03:00,867 --> 00:03:03,900 [water dripping] 43 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,767 [banging on door] [creaking] 44 00:03:06,867 --> 00:03:08,867 [sinister chord strikes] 45 00:03:16,567 --> 00:03:20,400 MICHAEL: I have a handful of photos, uh, that I keep. 46 00:03:20,467 --> 00:03:23,266 This is a picture of, uh, my brother 47 00:03:23,367 --> 00:03:26,600 and I -- just funny to kind of see, um, 48 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,000 us at that age, you know. 49 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:30,867 us at that age, you know. 50 00:03:30,867 --> 00:03:32,567 He wasn't 51 00:03:32,567 --> 00:03:35,767 always a bad person. 52 00:03:35,767 --> 00:03:38,000 I felt like he was a good older brother. 53 00:03:38,066 --> 00:03:39,867 We definitely were pretty close. 54 00:03:41,367 --> 00:03:43,767 My brother's temperament growing up I felt like was 55 00:03:43,867 --> 00:03:47,066 always, um, always very calm, 56 00:03:47,066 --> 00:03:51,100 never cruel to people, to animals. 57 00:03:51,166 --> 00:03:54,066 He always treated everybody with respect. 58 00:03:54,066 --> 00:03:55,600 He never lied. 59 00:03:55,667 --> 00:03:59,000 I always looked up to him because of that. 60 00:03:59,066 --> 00:04:00,000 I never looked at him and was scared. 61 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,100 I never looked at him and was scared. 62 00:04:03,166 --> 00:04:05,467 Any time I see a picture of Marc, you know, 63 00:04:05,467 --> 00:04:10,100 there's always that kind of black cloud hovering, you know, 64 00:04:10,166 --> 00:04:12,266 of -- of where 65 00:04:12,367 --> 00:04:14,800 his life, you know, ended up going. 66 00:04:16,567 --> 00:04:20,100 It's hard to really have a good memory without, 67 00:04:20,166 --> 00:04:22,567 you know, thinking about what happened. 68 00:04:22,567 --> 00:04:23,700 I can't imagine 69 00:04:25,567 --> 00:04:26,967 that it turned out like it did 70 00:04:26,967 --> 00:04:27,967 looking at this. 71 00:04:47,266 --> 00:04:49,266 After September 11th, 72 00:04:49,367 --> 00:04:51,900 he enlisted in the active duty Army. 73 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:56,867 He served most of his time out in South Korea. 74 00:04:56,867 --> 00:04:59,900 He got orders to come back to 75 00:05:00,066 --> 00:05:02,767 the States to a unit in Washington state. 76 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:07,800 And at that point, he kind of transitioned into the reserves. 77 00:05:07,867 --> 00:05:09,700 It seemed -- seemed like everything was great. 78 00:05:09,767 --> 00:05:12,767 But I think he had been in Washington State for maybe 79 00:05:12,867 --> 00:05:14,700 a year, maybe two, 80 00:05:14,767 --> 00:05:17,567 and then decided to move back to Colorado. 81 00:05:20,467 --> 00:05:21,900 I remember you couldn't wait to get out of here. 82 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,000 [laughs quietly] 83 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:26,667 Well, what can I say? I missed you. 84 00:05:26,667 --> 00:05:29,300 At the time, I thought that he had -- 85 00:05:29,367 --> 00:05:30,000 he had left Washington, because he had separated from his wife, 86 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,300 he had left Washington, because he had separated from his wife, 87 00:05:34,367 --> 00:05:37,467 and he just wanted to be closer to family. 88 00:05:37,467 --> 00:05:38,567 I'm really surprised you're back. 89 00:05:38,667 --> 00:05:39,700 I thought you liked it up there. 90 00:05:41,367 --> 00:05:44,367 Yeah, well, it got old. 91 00:05:44,367 --> 00:05:46,100 I needed a change of scenery. 92 00:05:46,166 --> 00:05:48,400 MICHAEL: But now, it definitely seems like he 93 00:05:48,467 --> 00:05:51,467 was kind of running from, you know, 94 00:05:51,567 --> 00:05:53,467 something out there. 95 00:05:53,567 --> 00:05:56,000 Looking back in retrospect, 96 00:05:56,066 --> 00:06:00,000 um, I do believe that Marc, um, left Washington to kind of 97 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:00,266 um, I do believe that Marc, um, left Washington to kind of 98 00:06:00,367 --> 00:06:03,467 escape because of the crimes he had committed out there. 99 00:06:12,266 --> 00:06:15,667 Actively attacking women started in Washington. 100 00:06:16,867 --> 00:06:19,767 He had already committed rapes before, you know, 101 00:06:19,867 --> 00:06:21,600 or a rape, at least. 102 00:06:21,667 --> 00:06:25,667 And he was wanting to get out of there. 103 00:06:25,767 --> 00:06:30,000 But nobody believed her when she made the claim. 104 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:30,567 But nobody believed her when she made the claim. 105 00:06:30,667 --> 00:06:33,700 I think that he felt like he had, you know, 106 00:06:33,767 --> 00:06:36,467 covered up his tracks well enough where he didn't really 107 00:06:36,567 --> 00:06:38,166 have anything to worry about. 108 00:06:39,166 --> 00:06:40,600 And I think the more crimes 109 00:06:40,667 --> 00:06:42,667 you commit, the more confident you get. 110 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,800 I kind of decided to ask Marc 111 00:06:57,867 --> 00:07:00,000 if I could move in with him during that time, 112 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:00,800 if I could move in with him during that time, 113 00:07:00,867 --> 00:07:03,800 and he didn't tell me right away that I could. 114 00:07:03,867 --> 00:07:06,867 He told me he was gonna think about it. 115 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:11,467 Looking back, if he had told me that I couldn't move in, 116 00:07:11,567 --> 00:07:12,700 that would be a little weird, 117 00:07:12,767 --> 00:07:15,367 you know, because he had the room. 118 00:07:15,367 --> 00:07:17,967 That potentially could have raised 119 00:07:17,967 --> 00:07:21,000 some red flags of why wouldn't you let your brother move in? 120 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:24,600 So he told me I could move in. 121 00:07:24,667 --> 00:07:26,567 But he basically said, you know, 122 00:07:26,567 --> 00:07:29,767 the only real stipulation or rule was just to -- 123 00:07:29,767 --> 00:07:30,000 to not touch his stuff. 124 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,166 to not touch his stuff. 125 00:07:32,166 --> 00:07:34,266 Hey. What are you doing? 126 00:07:36,266 --> 00:07:38,300 MICHAEL: On the day that I was moving in, 127 00:07:38,367 --> 00:07:41,266 I remember specifically him saying, 128 00:07:41,367 --> 00:07:44,367 "Don't be snooping around in any of his stuff. 129 00:07:45,467 --> 00:07:48,567 Why don't you keep your stuff in your room? 130 00:07:48,567 --> 00:07:51,000 I don't really want you touching my stuff. 131 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:54,567 Yeah. Um, okay, no problem, man. 132 00:07:54,667 --> 00:07:56,900 MICHAEL: That was like the only thing he had told me, 133 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,867 so it kind of stuck out -- you know, at the time, 134 00:07:59,867 --> 00:08:00,000 it made sense. 135 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,100 it made sense. 136 00:08:01,166 --> 00:08:02,767 We had a history that I had, you know, 137 00:08:02,867 --> 00:08:06,100 gone through his [bleep] plenty of times when we were kids. 138 00:08:06,166 --> 00:08:07,166 If we're just about done, 139 00:08:07,266 --> 00:08:11,100 then I gotta go. -All right. 140 00:08:11,166 --> 00:08:12,900 So at the time, just seemed like 141 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,367 a normal thing that you might tell your younger brother. 142 00:08:15,467 --> 00:08:17,400 But in retrospect, looking back, 143 00:08:17,467 --> 00:08:20,900 it was definitely kind of a red flag that he may have been 144 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,200 hiding something. 145 00:08:40,667 --> 00:08:42,867 MICHAEL: He had already had souvenirs in the house 146 00:08:42,967 --> 00:08:44,066 at that point, 147 00:08:44,066 --> 00:08:47,667 and he didn't want me to find any evidence of, 148 00:08:47,767 --> 00:08:49,967 you know, any of the crimes that he had committed 149 00:08:49,967 --> 00:08:51,166 up to that point. 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,900 After he was arrested, they kind of released a list of 151 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,000 evidence that they were using against him, you know, 152 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:00,867 evidence that they were using against him, you know, 153 00:09:00,867 --> 00:09:03,467 and that's when I kind of saw that the pink digital camera 154 00:09:03,467 --> 00:09:06,266 was on there, and I had seen that in the office. 155 00:09:08,166 --> 00:09:10,100 I had never, like, looked through it or anything 156 00:09:10,166 --> 00:09:11,767 like that, um, 157 00:09:11,867 --> 00:09:13,667 but I definitely remember just seeing it 158 00:09:13,767 --> 00:09:16,600 sitting on the, uh, on the shelf. 159 00:09:17,667 --> 00:09:21,300 He had taken it from one of the victims' houses, 160 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:24,600 but I just thought that it was 161 00:09:24,667 --> 00:09:26,667 one of his girlfriends or his ex-wife's. 162 00:09:28,266 --> 00:09:30,000 Hypothetically, if -- if things weren't hidden so well, 163 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,200 Hypothetically, if -- if things weren't hidden so well, 164 00:09:32,266 --> 00:09:35,567 I definitely would have found something and he might have 165 00:09:35,567 --> 00:09:37,100 had to kill me. 166 00:09:38,166 --> 00:09:39,900 I just don't know 167 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 what would have happened in that scenario. 168 00:09:51,867 --> 00:09:53,367 The whole time I was living there, 169 00:09:53,467 --> 00:09:58,367 he was getting random checks all the time, every few days. 170 00:09:59,567 --> 00:10:00,000 And he had told me that he had 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,500 And he had told me that he had 172 00:10:01,567 --> 00:10:05,367 actually gotten into developing porn sites. 173 00:10:06,767 --> 00:10:09,967 My initial reaction was that he was able to kind of do that 174 00:10:09,967 --> 00:10:11,100 and just have money, 175 00:10:11,166 --> 00:10:13,166 basically free money coming in. 176 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,467 He was making more money than I was making 177 00:10:16,567 --> 00:10:18,367 working a full-time job. 178 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,400 Looking back on it now, in my opinion, 100 percent, 179 00:10:24,467 --> 00:10:25,767 he had a sexual addiction, 180 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000 and I do think, uh, that exposure had a lot to do 181 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,567 and I do think, uh, that exposure had a lot to do 182 00:10:32,567 --> 00:10:34,266 with, uh, 183 00:10:34,266 --> 00:10:38,567 the urges and kind of how they, um, 184 00:10:38,667 --> 00:10:41,600 kept growing and what they kind of turned into. 185 00:10:43,266 --> 00:10:46,100 The amount of, you know, time probably throughout his 186 00:10:46,166 --> 00:10:48,000 life that he had spent, you know, 187 00:10:48,066 --> 00:10:51,667 looking at porn, I would assume that it's gonna fuel 188 00:10:51,767 --> 00:10:53,300 that addictive reaction. 189 00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:58,300 It's definitely not gonna help the urges. 190 00:10:59,567 --> 00:11:00,000 I just think that it drove him deeper into the dark world that 191 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,900 I just think that it drove him deeper into the dark world that 192 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,767 he was kind of engulfed in. 193 00:11:07,767 --> 00:11:11,266 [Marc speaking] 194 00:11:37,166 --> 00:11:39,367 MICHAEL: Marc was always a night owl. 195 00:11:39,467 --> 00:11:42,900 He would be up until who knows when, three and four 196 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,767 or five -- five o'clock in the morning, 197 00:11:44,867 --> 00:11:46,900 doing whatever he was doing. 198 00:11:48,467 --> 00:11:50,266 As far as what he did all night long, 199 00:11:50,367 --> 00:11:53,734 I never heard anything or saw anything. 200 00:11:53,734 --> 00:11:53,766 We had such different schedules that, I mean, 201 00:11:53,766 --> 00:11:57,100 We had such different schedules that, I mean, 202 00:11:57,166 --> 00:12:00,100 I would say it wouldn't be uncommon to go a couple of days 203 00:12:00,166 --> 00:12:01,200 without seeing him. 204 00:12:03,667 --> 00:12:05,200 Looking back, in retrospect, 205 00:12:05,266 --> 00:12:07,200 I was the perfect roommate for him. 206 00:12:07,266 --> 00:12:08,834 I was going to school full time, 207 00:12:08,834 --> 00:12:12,567 five days a week, and then working nights. 208 00:12:12,667 --> 00:12:14,200 If his door was shut, 209 00:12:14,266 --> 00:12:16,667 I wouldn't know if he was in his room or not. 210 00:12:18,667 --> 00:12:21,867 I honestly don't know exactly how many crimes he committed 211 00:12:21,867 --> 00:12:23,766 in the timeframe that I was living there. 212 00:12:23,766 --> 00:12:24,100 in the timeframe that I was living there. 213 00:12:24,166 --> 00:12:26,667 It could have been multiple nights a week. 214 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,734 One of the weirdest things to -- to think about is just how, 215 00:12:32,734 --> 00:12:34,667 you know, there was -- 216 00:12:34,734 --> 00:12:37,767 could have been multiple days where I talked to him, like, 217 00:12:37,834 --> 00:12:39,734 right after he had done something. 218 00:12:39,734 --> 00:12:41,767 -[knocks lightly] -Marc? 219 00:12:41,867 --> 00:12:43,767 MICHAEL: It's definitely, uh, you know, 220 00:12:43,834 --> 00:12:47,834 kind of haunting when you think about what he was doing 221 00:12:47,834 --> 00:12:50,166 at night, you know, after I went to sleep. 222 00:12:50,166 --> 00:12:53,600 I would think he would have had to spend a lot of time out 223 00:12:53,667 --> 00:12:53,766 doing surveillance on people, on his victims. 224 00:12:53,766 --> 00:12:57,200 doing surveillance on people, on his victims. 225 00:12:58,266 --> 00:13:01,100 [Marc speaking] 226 00:13:20,367 --> 00:13:22,867 MICHAEL: I definitely remember, during the time I was living 227 00:13:22,967 --> 00:13:23,766 with Marc, there was always gloves by the door, 228 00:13:23,766 --> 00:13:26,900 with Marc, there was always gloves by the door, 229 00:13:28,567 --> 00:13:31,867 some black gloves that he would consistently wear 230 00:13:31,867 --> 00:13:33,100 all the time. 231 00:13:34,867 --> 00:13:37,667 Really thought nothing of it until after he was arrested, 232 00:13:37,767 --> 00:13:39,100 you know, then you just kind of 233 00:13:39,166 --> 00:13:42,266 start replaying every little instance. 234 00:13:43,467 --> 00:13:45,600 There was one time specifically, 235 00:13:45,667 --> 00:13:49,967 we went out to a little place for dinner, and I just remember 236 00:13:49,967 --> 00:13:52,266 him having the gloves on while he was driving. 237 00:13:54,567 --> 00:13:56,967 I think it was probably, like, fall, you know, 238 00:13:56,967 --> 00:14:00,100 so it wasn't, you know, snowing. 239 00:14:00,166 --> 00:14:02,667 That's one thing that I remember that, you know, at 240 00:14:02,734 --> 00:14:05,767 the time, I didn't think anything of, but looking back, 241 00:14:05,834 --> 00:14:08,467 I definitely felt like, you know, it was a little weird 242 00:14:08,567 --> 00:14:11,467 that he, you know, was wearing the gloves the whole time. 243 00:14:11,567 --> 00:14:14,100 You know, if you're cold, I can turn on the heat. 244 00:14:14,166 --> 00:14:15,300 No, I'm good. 245 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,300 MICHAEL: Any time he could get away with wearing them 246 00:14:18,367 --> 00:14:20,767 and not looking out of place, he was wearing them. 247 00:14:21,834 --> 00:14:23,766 The more I thought about it, it's like, what good 248 00:14:23,766 --> 00:14:23,900 The more I thought about it, it's like, what good 249 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,767 does wearing gloves in your own car do? 250 00:14:26,867 --> 00:14:29,467 It seems like he was taking precaution, wearing them 251 00:14:29,567 --> 00:14:32,467 for the purposes of not leaving any prints anywhere. 252 00:14:32,467 --> 00:14:36,000 -Something wrong? -No, nothing. 253 00:14:37,767 --> 00:14:40,166 It made me think, like, did he always take precautions 254 00:14:40,266 --> 00:14:42,834 not to leave, like, any prints in his own car? 255 00:14:43,967 --> 00:14:46,300 Little things like that always kind of make me wonder how 256 00:14:46,367 --> 00:14:49,367 much time and effort 257 00:14:49,367 --> 00:14:52,600 was going on behind the scenes without anybody 258 00:14:52,667 --> 00:14:53,766 knowing, including myself. 259 00:14:53,766 --> 00:14:54,266 knowing, including myself. 260 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:59,166 [Marc speaking] 261 00:15:23,367 --> 00:15:23,766 MICHAEL: I had woken up one morning. 262 00:15:23,766 --> 00:15:26,066 MICHAEL: I had woken up one morning. 263 00:15:26,066 --> 00:15:27,300 I remember it being pretty early. 264 00:15:27,367 --> 00:15:29,900 It was probably, like, six a.m., 265 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,166 and I walked into the office to do something on the computer, 266 00:15:36,367 --> 00:15:39,166 and it was a little odd, because there was 267 00:15:39,166 --> 00:15:43,467 a book that was opened up, like, on the desk. 268 00:15:44,867 --> 00:15:50,367 So I looked at it, and it was a book on self-hypnosis. 269 00:15:50,467 --> 00:15:52,500 It was different, so it did stick out. 270 00:15:52,567 --> 00:15:53,766 I'm like, huh, this is a little odd, you know? 271 00:15:53,766 --> 00:15:55,567 I'm like, huh, this is a little odd, you know? 272 00:15:55,667 --> 00:15:57,867 He was pretty open about everything when 273 00:15:57,867 --> 00:16:00,600 it came to what he was, like, studying, 274 00:16:00,667 --> 00:16:03,667 you know, and he had never mentioned anything about 275 00:16:03,734 --> 00:16:04,834 the hypnosis. 276 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,266 He never really seemed, like, too stressed out. 277 00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,867 I definitely thought it was weird, 278 00:16:11,967 --> 00:16:15,867 but I didn't ask him, because he had told me not to, 279 00:16:15,967 --> 00:16:17,767 you know, go through his stuff 280 00:16:17,867 --> 00:16:20,500 or be snooping around anything in the house. 281 00:16:20,567 --> 00:16:23,766 -What are you doing in here? -Um... 282 00:16:23,766 --> 00:16:23,867 -What are you doing in here? -Um... 283 00:16:23,867 --> 00:16:25,266 nothing. 284 00:16:25,266 --> 00:16:27,200 Just sending some emails. 285 00:16:27,266 --> 00:16:29,100 MICHAEL: Looking back on it now, 286 00:16:29,166 --> 00:16:31,600 I think he was trying to fix himself. 287 00:16:31,667 --> 00:16:35,300 And the only reason I say that is just because it's the thing, 288 00:16:35,367 --> 00:16:38,000 to me, that makes the most sense, you know? 289 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,767 I'm done. It's all yours. 290 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,734 Great. Thanks. 291 00:16:43,734 --> 00:16:46,867 MICHAEL: I think maybe, you know, that was -- that was one 292 00:16:46,867 --> 00:16:50,834 of the ways that he was trying to suppress those urges -- 293 00:16:50,834 --> 00:16:53,766 hypnotize himself out of the urges 294 00:16:53,766 --> 00:16:53,967 hypnotize himself out of the urges 295 00:16:53,967 --> 00:16:56,266 and trying to, like, fix himself in a way. 296 00:16:57,266 --> 00:16:58,367 It's like an addiction. 297 00:16:58,467 --> 00:17:00,567 You know, you want to stop, you want to quit, 298 00:17:00,667 --> 00:17:03,367 but it just draws you back in. 299 00:17:24,734 --> 00:17:26,000 MICHAEL: In retrospect, 300 00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:29,934 you know, I think everything that Marc did at the time 301 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,100 all played a role in him evading police. 302 00:17:35,166 --> 00:17:37,108 He definitely, um, showered more than he used to, 303 00:17:37,108 --> 00:17:39,567 He definitely, um, showered more than he used to, 304 00:17:39,667 --> 00:17:41,867 comparing it to what he used to do 305 00:17:41,967 --> 00:17:44,500 before he was in the military, like, he would go 306 00:17:44,567 --> 00:17:47,100 days without showering. 307 00:17:47,166 --> 00:17:50,667 He was definitely a little bit, like, hyper-hygienic, 308 00:17:50,734 --> 00:17:53,767 taking multiple showers. 309 00:17:53,867 --> 00:17:55,000 At the time, 310 00:17:55,066 --> 00:17:57,367 it wasn't something that stuck out where I'm like, man, 311 00:17:57,467 --> 00:18:00,100 why are you showering again, you know? 312 00:18:00,166 --> 00:18:04,000 I thought it was a combination of being in 313 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:06,834 the military and the discipline he had kind of 314 00:18:06,834 --> 00:18:07,108 um, taken on. 315 00:18:07,108 --> 00:18:08,767 um, taken on. 316 00:18:10,834 --> 00:18:13,767 But looking back, if he showers at 2 in the morning 317 00:18:13,834 --> 00:18:17,100 or 3 in the morning or comes home and showers at, 318 00:18:17,166 --> 00:18:18,567 you know 4 in the morning, 319 00:18:18,567 --> 00:18:21,867 it might have been after the crimes he's showering 320 00:18:21,934 --> 00:18:25,266 like crazy to get, you know, any evidence off, 321 00:18:25,367 --> 00:18:28,266 kind of just make sure that he was clean all the time. 322 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,108 [Marc speaking] 323 00:18:37,108 --> 00:18:38,066 [Marc speaking] 324 00:18:54,834 --> 00:18:59,600 When I had moved in with Marc, I was in barber school, and, uh, 325 00:18:59,667 --> 00:19:01,667 Marc had asked me to give him 326 00:19:01,734 --> 00:19:04,467 a haircut on a couple of different occasions. 327 00:19:04,467 --> 00:19:06,367 You sure you want a buzz cut again? 328 00:19:06,367 --> 00:19:07,108 Yeah. 329 00:19:07,108 --> 00:19:07,834 Yeah. 330 00:19:07,834 --> 00:19:12,100 And he, you know, wanted such a short, military-style cut. 331 00:19:12,166 --> 00:19:15,166 It's kind of short as it is -- there's not much a trim. 332 00:19:15,166 --> 00:19:16,967 I like it this way. 333 00:19:16,967 --> 00:19:19,166 It's definitely a little weird, thinking -- 334 00:19:19,166 --> 00:19:20,667 thinking back on that. 335 00:19:20,767 --> 00:19:23,367 He basically had long hair 336 00:19:23,467 --> 00:19:25,300 all the way through high school. 337 00:19:25,367 --> 00:19:27,467 Once he got out of the military, 338 00:19:27,467 --> 00:19:30,467 he didn't have to, you know, but he did want his hair 339 00:19:30,467 --> 00:19:31,600 really short. 340 00:19:31,667 --> 00:19:33,600 You can grow it out if you want, you know that, right? 341 00:19:33,667 --> 00:19:36,834 Mike, I told you I like it this short. 342 00:19:36,834 --> 00:19:37,108 Besides, I thought you wanted the practice. 343 00:19:37,108 --> 00:19:39,200 Besides, I thought you wanted the practice. 344 00:19:39,266 --> 00:19:40,400 Yeah. 345 00:19:40,467 --> 00:19:42,367 MICHAEL: I think leaving it a little longer 346 00:19:42,467 --> 00:19:44,934 might have been something that you would want to do if 347 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,066 you, you know, had been forced 348 00:19:47,066 --> 00:19:49,834 to get a really short cut for a long time. 349 00:19:49,834 --> 00:19:52,300 But he was pretty adamant about just making 350 00:19:52,367 --> 00:19:55,567 sure it was, you know, like skin-tight. 351 00:20:00,767 --> 00:20:03,467 In retrospect, he might have 352 00:20:03,567 --> 00:20:05,867 been wanting that short of a haircut 353 00:20:05,967 --> 00:20:07,108 so it was less, you know, DNA evidence 354 00:20:07,108 --> 00:20:08,567 so it was less, you know, DNA evidence 355 00:20:08,667 --> 00:20:12,166 that he might leave behind at the crime scenes. 356 00:20:13,266 --> 00:20:15,266 -Thanks. -No problem. 357 00:20:15,266 --> 00:20:17,300 MICHAEL: And also, I did notice that he always kept 358 00:20:17,367 --> 00:20:18,767 his fingernails short, 359 00:20:18,834 --> 00:20:21,767 he always kept his face clean-shaven, 360 00:20:21,867 --> 00:20:24,100 and wore hats a lot. 361 00:20:24,166 --> 00:20:26,367 Almost every time he left the house, he was in 362 00:20:26,467 --> 00:20:28,166 some kind of hat. 363 00:20:28,166 --> 00:20:31,667 It definitely could have been a strategic move, you know? 364 00:20:33,367 --> 00:20:35,667 All of his energy, seemingly, was 365 00:20:35,767 --> 00:20:37,108 put into not leaving DNA behind. 366 00:20:37,108 --> 00:20:38,767 put into not leaving DNA behind. 367 00:20:48,166 --> 00:20:52,867 He was definitely -- wanted to kind of get in 368 00:20:52,934 --> 00:20:56,834 the routine of constantly, you know, covering his tracks. 369 00:20:58,367 --> 00:21:02,934 And some things are, you know, starting to kind of be weird. 370 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,934 He had mentioned that I wasn't to use his laundry detergent. 371 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:07,108 I just needed to have my own laundry detergent. 372 00:21:07,108 --> 00:21:09,934 I just needed to have my own laundry detergent. 373 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,166 I thought it was a little weird, 374 00:21:11,166 --> 00:21:15,567 so I asked why -- he had told me it was because of all 375 00:21:15,567 --> 00:21:17,734 the chemicals that, you know, 376 00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:20,600 were put in all these things that supposedly were 377 00:21:20,667 --> 00:21:23,100 causing cancer. 378 00:21:23,166 --> 00:21:24,734 What are you doing? 379 00:21:24,734 --> 00:21:25,934 Doing laundry. 380 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,200 MICHAEL: Made perfect sense. 381 00:21:27,266 --> 00:21:29,600 He was definitely very health conscious at the time, 382 00:21:29,667 --> 00:21:33,834 so it didn't really, you know, raise any red flags with me. 383 00:21:33,834 --> 00:21:34,934 Did you take my clothes? 384 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,108 Yeah, I saw them piling up. 385 00:21:37,108 --> 00:21:37,266 Yeah, I saw them piling up. 386 00:21:37,367 --> 00:21:38,567 I thought I'd help out. 387 00:21:38,667 --> 00:21:43,300 But he always used scent-free laundry detergent. 388 00:21:43,367 --> 00:21:48,500 He was always adamant about using natural products 389 00:21:48,567 --> 00:21:51,400 that wouldn't leave any specific scents on him 390 00:21:51,467 --> 00:21:53,834 and never wore any cologne, 391 00:21:54,834 --> 00:21:58,500 any scented lotions or anything like that. 392 00:21:58,567 --> 00:21:59,700 Don't use that stuff. 393 00:22:01,266 --> 00:22:03,400 MICHAEL: Looking back, you know, you kind of think like, 394 00:22:03,467 --> 00:22:05,000 you know, why? 395 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:07,108 I think there was a good chance that he was trying 396 00:22:07,108 --> 00:22:07,600 I think there was a good chance that he was trying 397 00:22:07,667 --> 00:22:10,767 to avoid giving off 398 00:22:10,834 --> 00:22:14,667 any noticeable or recognizable scents when he was, 399 00:22:14,734 --> 00:22:16,567 you know, doing these attacks. 400 00:22:16,567 --> 00:22:19,867 You know, you wouldn't want a specific smell 401 00:22:19,967 --> 00:22:21,567 if you're out committing rape. 402 00:22:21,667 --> 00:22:25,467 You don't really want to give off any specific, like, 403 00:22:25,467 --> 00:22:27,567 fresh scent. 404 00:22:27,567 --> 00:22:31,367 So, in retrospect, the scent-free soaps 405 00:22:31,467 --> 00:22:34,166 and the detergents were probably, in his mind, 406 00:22:34,166 --> 00:22:37,108 just as important as his rape kit to commit the crimes. 407 00:22:37,108 --> 00:22:38,767 just as important as his rape kit to commit the crimes. 408 00:23:11,867 --> 00:23:14,300 MICHAEL: Definitely the longer I lived there, 409 00:23:14,367 --> 00:23:17,500 it was getting weirder. 410 00:23:17,567 --> 00:23:21,300 This is a picture of the living room. 411 00:23:21,367 --> 00:23:23,567 This is exactly how I remember the room 412 00:23:23,567 --> 00:23:28,200 always looking -- blinds were shut all the time. 413 00:23:29,367 --> 00:23:33,166 This blind right behind the sofa was the one that 414 00:23:33,166 --> 00:23:35,100 I think at one point, I had left open, 415 00:23:35,166 --> 00:23:38,967 and Marc told me that, you know, we needed to keep that shut. 416 00:23:39,033 --> 00:23:40,889 One day, he had noticed that the blinds were, like, 417 00:23:40,889 --> 00:23:42,000 One day, he had noticed that the blinds were, like, 418 00:23:42,066 --> 00:23:44,266 either opened or partially opened 419 00:23:44,266 --> 00:23:46,967 or something like that, and he was just upset. 420 00:23:47,033 --> 00:23:48,100 What are you doing? 421 00:23:48,166 --> 00:23:50,200 Just letting some light in. 422 00:23:50,266 --> 00:23:52,500 MICHAEL: He told me that, you know, just make sure 423 00:23:52,567 --> 00:23:55,567 we keep all the blinds shut all the time. 424 00:23:55,567 --> 00:23:59,000 He said it wasn't a very nice neighborhood, and there's 425 00:23:59,066 --> 00:24:01,734 burglaries that happen, and if people can 426 00:24:01,734 --> 00:24:04,467 see in your house, you know, it's like they can spot exactly 427 00:24:04,467 --> 00:24:05,567 what you have in there. 428 00:24:05,667 --> 00:24:08,200 And he was just -- just basically told me that we 429 00:24:08,266 --> 00:24:10,889 just need to make sure that we keep the blinds closed, 430 00:24:10,889 --> 00:24:11,867 just need to make sure that we keep the blinds closed, 431 00:24:11,934 --> 00:24:14,133 just to make sure nobody can see in the house 432 00:24:14,133 --> 00:24:17,200 to plan any type of robbery or anything like that. 433 00:24:17,266 --> 00:24:19,166 But it doesn't make sense. 434 00:24:19,266 --> 00:24:22,166 There was nothing in there of any value other than 435 00:24:22,266 --> 00:24:23,967 the TV and the Playstation. 436 00:24:24,033 --> 00:24:25,300 What are they gonna take, the TV? 437 00:24:26,467 --> 00:24:27,567 Just keep them closed. 438 00:24:29,033 --> 00:24:32,367 I think that he was taking measures to 439 00:24:32,467 --> 00:24:35,400 basically not be seen as much as possible. 440 00:24:35,467 --> 00:24:37,667 Okay. Yeah, no problem. 441 00:24:37,734 --> 00:24:40,889 MICHAEL: I'm pretty sure he was going grocery shopping at, like, 442 00:24:40,889 --> 00:24:40,934 MICHAEL: I'm pretty sure he was going grocery shopping at, like, 443 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,834 dark, because the less noticeable he was, 444 00:24:44,834 --> 00:24:48,967 the less chances he had of getting noticed or caught. 445 00:24:49,033 --> 00:24:51,033 I think he was doing his best to just keep 446 00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:56,600 as low of a profile, just in general in every aspect. 447 00:24:56,667 --> 00:24:59,467 And I think that he felt like he had, 448 00:24:59,467 --> 00:25:02,734 you know, covered up his tracks well enough where he didn't 449 00:25:02,734 --> 00:25:04,600 really have anything to worry about. 450 00:25:05,867 --> 00:25:10,889 But I'm not really sure how much of a hunch 451 00:25:10,889 --> 00:25:11,367 But I'm not really sure how much of a hunch 452 00:25:11,467 --> 00:25:15,066 he had as far as the cops being onto him. 453 00:25:25,667 --> 00:25:28,467 Come to find out, the FBI or the police 454 00:25:28,467 --> 00:25:31,367 were watching the house. 455 00:25:31,367 --> 00:25:34,100 I think they were at least watching for at least, like, 456 00:25:34,166 --> 00:25:35,667 a month. 457 00:25:35,734 --> 00:25:39,934 One of the victims in the case identified the truck, 458 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,889 and then they were drawn to the house because of the truck. 459 00:25:40,889 --> 00:25:44,767 and then they were drawn to the house because of the truck. 460 00:25:46,033 --> 00:25:49,600 They were surveilling the house, and they were 461 00:25:49,667 --> 00:25:54,567 looking for an opportunity when Marc left the house 462 00:25:54,667 --> 00:25:59,400 to knock on the door and talk to me. 463 00:25:59,467 --> 00:26:02,767 But me and Marc definitely look pretty similar. 464 00:26:02,867 --> 00:26:05,767 They basically had us confused. 465 00:26:05,867 --> 00:26:09,100 They weren't quite sure which one of us it was, 466 00:26:09,166 --> 00:26:10,889 because we pretty much had the same build. 467 00:26:10,889 --> 00:26:12,266 because we pretty much had the same build. 468 00:26:17,867 --> 00:26:20,467 So one day, I came home. 469 00:26:20,467 --> 00:26:21,767 What are you doing? 470 00:26:21,834 --> 00:26:26,033 I saw Marc, and, uh, we started talking, and he said 471 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,867 that the, uh, police had stopped by. 472 00:26:28,967 --> 00:26:30,266 The cops were here before. 473 00:26:30,367 --> 00:26:32,767 Wait, what? 474 00:26:32,834 --> 00:26:36,066 And basically were just informing him 475 00:26:36,133 --> 00:26:38,200 that there would -- there had been a series 476 00:26:38,266 --> 00:26:40,100 of robberies that had taken place 477 00:26:40,166 --> 00:26:40,889 in the neighborhood and that we just needed to just be alert 478 00:26:40,889 --> 00:26:44,467 in the neighborhood and that we just needed to just be alert 479 00:26:44,467 --> 00:26:47,166 and make sure we keep everything locked up. 480 00:26:47,266 --> 00:26:48,934 Are we supposed to do anything about it? 481 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,767 Nah, they just want to make sure we're being safe. 482 00:26:51,834 --> 00:26:54,767 MICHAEL: He could have gotten a little bit nervous 483 00:26:54,834 --> 00:26:56,033 at that time, 484 00:26:56,100 --> 00:26:58,033 but when he was telling me about it, he didn't 485 00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:00,100 seem paranoid. 486 00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:05,100 You would think that he would be at least a little, you know, 487 00:27:05,166 --> 00:27:07,100 nervous and asking me, like, 488 00:27:07,166 --> 00:27:09,567 oh, have they stopped by any other times, have they -- 489 00:27:09,567 --> 00:27:10,889 have you seen them around? 490 00:27:10,889 --> 00:27:11,600 have you seen them around? 491 00:27:11,667 --> 00:27:16,500 But he seemed pretty calm and pretty normal at the time. 492 00:27:16,567 --> 00:27:18,467 I didn't even think twice of it. 493 00:27:18,567 --> 00:27:20,200 I was totally under the impression that, 494 00:27:20,266 --> 00:27:22,166 you know, there were some burglaries going on 495 00:27:22,266 --> 00:27:23,467 in the neighborhood. 496 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,667 After the police stopped by, you know, 497 00:27:28,767 --> 00:27:32,166 I didn't see any real change in Marc. 498 00:27:32,266 --> 00:27:35,367 I would think at that point, he would have started taking some 499 00:27:35,367 --> 00:27:36,934 real measures to, you know, 500 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,166 skip town or do whatever if he was actually thinking 501 00:27:40,266 --> 00:27:40,889 that they were on his trail. 502 00:27:40,889 --> 00:27:42,266 that they were on his trail. 503 00:27:42,266 --> 00:27:45,667 But I think that he thought that his process 504 00:27:45,767 --> 00:27:49,567 was pretty foolproof, and he was almost smarter 505 00:27:49,667 --> 00:27:52,033 than -- than the police. 506 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,967 [Marc speaking] 507 00:28:13,367 --> 00:28:15,767 MICHAEL: One day, me and Marc are just kind of 508 00:28:15,867 --> 00:28:17,200 chit-chatting, and I noticed 509 00:28:17,266 --> 00:28:19,867 a book that was related to, like, survival 510 00:28:19,967 --> 00:28:21,233 and stuff like that. 511 00:28:21,266 --> 00:28:24,600 So I started asking him about what he was researching up on. 512 00:28:24,667 --> 00:28:27,667 -What are you doing? -Packing. 513 00:28:27,734 --> 00:28:31,166 And he started telling me about being able to survive, 514 00:28:31,166 --> 00:28:33,667 you know, on your own in the woods. 515 00:28:33,734 --> 00:28:37,166 He was gonna get dropped off in a remote spot in 516 00:28:37,166 --> 00:28:38,867 the wilderness and basically have 517 00:28:38,934 --> 00:28:40,889 to survive out there for a long period of time 518 00:28:40,889 --> 00:28:41,967 to survive out there for a long period of time 519 00:28:42,033 --> 00:28:44,467 on your own with, like, nothing pretty much. 520 00:28:44,567 --> 00:28:46,300 Why would you do something like? 521 00:28:46,367 --> 00:28:47,967 To see if I can. 522 00:28:49,367 --> 00:28:53,300 MICHAEL: No supplies, no tent, no gear. 523 00:28:53,367 --> 00:28:56,400 So it was kind of like a life or death, 524 00:28:56,467 --> 00:28:57,934 live-or-die situation. 525 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,467 You either survive it and make it out, or you -- 526 00:29:00,467 --> 00:29:02,400 or you're dead. 527 00:29:02,467 --> 00:29:05,166 Within the next six months was when he was 528 00:29:05,266 --> 00:29:06,567 saying that he was gonna do that. 529 00:29:06,667 --> 00:29:09,467 So when are you going? 530 00:29:11,567 --> 00:29:13,667 I don't know yet. I just wanna be ready. 531 00:29:14,867 --> 00:29:16,934 MICHAEL: At the time, my initial reaction was, 532 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,567 you know, you're crazy. 533 00:29:18,567 --> 00:29:21,967 He had never spent any alone time in the wilderness. 534 00:29:22,033 --> 00:29:24,767 He wasn't a hiker, he wasn't... 535 00:29:24,834 --> 00:29:28,100 into the camping, fishing, anything like that. 536 00:29:28,166 --> 00:29:33,367 So it was definitely, uh, something that, you know, was 537 00:29:33,467 --> 00:29:37,133 out of character, but after being in the military, 538 00:29:37,133 --> 00:29:40,166 I didn't put it past the fact that he could do that. 539 00:29:40,266 --> 00:29:40,889 Looking back, I think there's a possibility 540 00:29:40,889 --> 00:29:42,567 Looking back, I think there's a possibility 541 00:29:42,567 --> 00:29:43,667 that he could have just been 542 00:29:43,767 --> 00:29:46,600 getting ready in case he had to disappear 543 00:29:46,667 --> 00:29:49,000 at any given moment. 544 00:29:49,066 --> 00:29:51,367 I think that is a possibility, that he was kind 545 00:29:51,467 --> 00:29:54,734 of preparing for having to evade police at some point. 546 00:30:04,266 --> 00:30:06,567 The day Marc got arrested, 547 00:30:06,667 --> 00:30:08,500 I'd been playing poker. 548 00:30:08,567 --> 00:30:10,889 I was basically coming down First Avenue and went to go 549 00:30:10,889 --> 00:30:13,166 I was basically coming down First Avenue and went to go 550 00:30:13,166 --> 00:30:15,567 make a right onto the street 551 00:30:15,567 --> 00:30:17,600 we lived on and noticed that the whole 552 00:30:17,667 --> 00:30:20,567 street was blocked off. 553 00:30:20,567 --> 00:30:24,200 I jumped out the car and just started walking to my house. 554 00:30:24,266 --> 00:30:26,834 I see kind of a group of police, 555 00:30:26,834 --> 00:30:30,767 and they basically just start walking toward me. 556 00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:37,500 MICHAEL: I didn't even make it to my house. 557 00:30:37,567 --> 00:30:40,233 They started just asking me questions about my brother. 558 00:30:40,367 --> 00:30:41,300 This is your house? 559 00:30:41,367 --> 00:30:43,467 What's your relationship to Marc O'Leary? 560 00:30:43,567 --> 00:30:45,300 They told me that Marc 561 00:30:45,367 --> 00:30:49,767 was under investigation for serial sexual assault. 562 00:30:49,834 --> 00:30:51,767 I couldn't believe it. 563 00:30:51,834 --> 00:30:57,367 My initial feeling, I think, was just pure shock, because 564 00:30:57,467 --> 00:31:00,100 he never had a history of any violence towards anybody. 565 00:31:00,166 --> 00:31:03,100 So I just wouldn't think that he would 566 00:31:03,166 --> 00:31:04,833 be capable of -- of committing these type of crimes. 567 00:31:04,833 --> 00:31:07,266 be capable of -- of committing these type of crimes. 568 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:11,133 I'm just like, you guys, you know, you screwed up here. 569 00:31:11,133 --> 00:31:12,367 You got the wrong guy. 570 00:31:12,467 --> 00:31:15,100 -You -- you made a mistake. -Sir, your brother has been 571 00:31:15,166 --> 00:31:17,500 arrested on multiple crimes. 572 00:31:17,567 --> 00:31:21,300 And then that's when they kind of told me that they had been 573 00:31:21,367 --> 00:31:23,066 investigating for, 574 00:31:23,133 --> 00:31:26,033 you know, a long period of time 575 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:27,767 and that they, you know, 576 00:31:27,834 --> 00:31:31,934 were 100 percent positive that -- that it was him. 577 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,833 There was tons of charges -- rape, assault, kidnapping, 578 00:31:34,833 --> 00:31:37,166 There was tons of charges -- rape, assault, kidnapping, 579 00:31:37,266 --> 00:31:41,166 just a list of charges. 580 00:31:41,233 --> 00:31:42,467 In that moment, 581 00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:46,467 you know, you're just so numb, because it's so much shock. 582 00:31:46,467 --> 00:31:48,066 You don't know how to feel. 583 00:31:51,367 --> 00:31:54,133 I never would have thought my brother 584 00:31:54,133 --> 00:31:57,567 would have committed any violence on anybody. 585 00:31:59,867 --> 00:32:02,767 October 4th, 2009, 586 00:32:02,834 --> 00:32:04,833 a 65-year-old woman contacts Aurora police 587 00:32:04,833 --> 00:32:06,967 a 65-year-old woman contacts Aurora police 588 00:32:07,033 --> 00:32:09,467 and reports that she has been sexually assaulted. 589 00:32:37,166 --> 00:32:40,967 July 6th, 2010, a 40-year-old woman 590 00:32:41,033 --> 00:32:42,667 calls Lakewood police to report 591 00:32:42,734 --> 00:32:45,600 that she was attacked in the middle of the night. 592 00:32:45,667 --> 00:32:49,867 She was able to jump from a window and escape. 593 00:33:00,567 --> 00:33:04,833 August 10th, 2010, a 59-year-old woman calls 594 00:33:04,833 --> 00:33:05,400 August 10th, 2010, a 59-year-old woman calls 595 00:33:05,467 --> 00:33:09,100 police to report that she has been sexually assaulted. 596 00:33:24,667 --> 00:33:27,367 January 5th, 2011, 597 00:33:27,467 --> 00:33:31,367 a 26-year-old woman called Golden police 598 00:33:31,367 --> 00:33:34,066 and reported that she had been sexually assaulted in her home. 599 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,367 MICHAEL: And then to know, you know, 600 00:33:45,367 --> 00:33:49,567 that there was even yet another victim 601 00:33:49,567 --> 00:33:54,367 in Washington that nobody believed her when she, you know, 602 00:33:54,367 --> 00:33:55,667 made the claim. 603 00:33:55,767 --> 00:33:58,000 [Marc speaking] 604 00:34:11,767 --> 00:34:15,367 Just knowing that, you know, you -- 605 00:34:15,467 --> 00:34:18,600 that I lived with somebody who was committing this stuff, 606 00:34:18,667 --> 00:34:22,834 it's definitely a -- kind of a haunting feeling, you know? 607 00:34:22,834 --> 00:34:25,500 A lot of these things were going on probably 608 00:34:25,567 --> 00:34:27,166 while I was sleeping or -- 609 00:34:27,266 --> 00:34:29,400 or who knows when. 610 00:34:39,934 --> 00:34:43,000 [Marc speaking] 611 00:35:10,934 --> 00:35:14,133 That's pretty tough to watch, for sure. 612 00:35:14,133 --> 00:35:18,100 I had never seen any of that footage before. 613 00:35:18,166 --> 00:35:22,867 It's hard to -- to comprehend that, um, that anybody, 614 00:35:22,967 --> 00:35:24,133 especially, you know, 615 00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:28,066 the brother that I thought I knew, um, would enjoy, 616 00:35:28,133 --> 00:35:32,567 you know, putting somebody else in such a state of fear 617 00:35:32,667 --> 00:35:34,833 and that it would, uh, excite them, you know? 618 00:35:34,833 --> 00:35:36,166 and that it would, uh, excite them, you know? 619 00:35:52,066 --> 00:35:54,467 MICHAEL: It seems like he was almost approaching it 620 00:35:54,467 --> 00:35:56,834 like it was a game. 621 00:35:56,834 --> 00:36:00,467 It seems like he, at that point, was -- was proud of -- 622 00:36:00,567 --> 00:36:04,233 of what he had done -- 623 00:36:04,233 --> 00:36:04,833 if not proud, he was definitely, uh, 624 00:36:04,833 --> 00:36:08,100 if not proud, he was definitely, uh, 625 00:36:08,166 --> 00:36:12,967 very desensitized to how hurtful it was 626 00:36:13,033 --> 00:36:16,400 to people, like he had no real regret. 627 00:36:16,467 --> 00:36:21,133 It's tough to imagine that somebody could, you know, 628 00:36:21,133 --> 00:36:24,834 talk about stuff they had done that was so evil 629 00:36:24,834 --> 00:36:29,767 and talk about it with no real regret or remorse. 630 00:36:32,066 --> 00:36:34,833 [Marc speaking] 631 00:36:34,833 --> 00:36:35,000 [Marc speaking] 632 00:36:58,166 --> 00:37:03,166 I think he was just obviously so sick that I don't think 633 00:37:03,233 --> 00:37:04,300 there was anything that was 634 00:37:04,367 --> 00:37:04,833 gonna fulfill what he was ultimately looking for. 635 00:37:04,833 --> 00:37:08,567 gonna fulfill what he was ultimately looking for. 636 00:37:08,667 --> 00:37:11,667 If sex and fear ended up not being enough, 637 00:37:11,734 --> 00:37:13,367 you have to think that, you know, it could 638 00:37:13,467 --> 00:37:15,233 have potentially 639 00:37:15,233 --> 00:37:18,033 moved into a whole 'nother realm that could have been 640 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:21,867 murder or who knows what it could have escalated to. 641 00:37:34,033 --> 00:37:34,833 To think about, you know, 642 00:37:34,833 --> 00:37:36,667 To think about, you know, 643 00:37:36,767 --> 00:37:39,266 what these women went through, 644 00:37:39,367 --> 00:37:40,500 it's just horrible. 645 00:37:42,467 --> 00:37:45,400 It's definitely, you know, something that I probably 646 00:37:45,467 --> 00:37:49,000 won't forget, you know, for a long time, if -- or ever. 647 00:38:05,834 --> 00:38:10,100 Being in court that day when he put in the plea of guilty, 648 00:38:10,166 --> 00:38:13,367 you know, it was, uh, definitely one of the hardest -- 649 00:38:13,367 --> 00:38:16,266 hardest days of my life -- it felt, 650 00:38:16,266 --> 00:38:19,834 you know, just like basically your whole world, you know, 651 00:38:19,834 --> 00:38:22,133 was just crashing down. 652 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,100 We went over to the county jail 653 00:38:26,166 --> 00:38:30,066 and saw him, and it was through a piece of glass. 654 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,833 I remember when I sat down, um, he wasn't there yet, you know, 655 00:38:34,833 --> 00:38:35,266 I remember when I sat down, um, he wasn't there yet, you know, 656 00:38:35,266 --> 00:38:38,233 so there was a moment, and that's another one of those 657 00:38:38,233 --> 00:38:40,667 moments that feels like an eternity when you're waiting 658 00:38:40,734 --> 00:38:43,600 on somebody you're visiting to, like, come through the door. 659 00:38:45,567 --> 00:38:50,867 They brought him out, and he looked just kind of blank, 660 00:38:50,967 --> 00:38:53,133 you know, like there wasn't... 661 00:38:54,567 --> 00:38:55,934 there wasn't any emotion. 662 00:38:56,934 --> 00:38:58,767 There wasn't 663 00:38:58,867 --> 00:39:02,266 much to be said, you know, other than, like, how you doing 664 00:39:02,266 --> 00:39:04,833 kind of thing, like, you don't know what to say. 665 00:39:04,833 --> 00:39:05,266 kind of thing, like, you don't know what to say. 666 00:39:05,367 --> 00:39:07,834 You know, you want to ask all these questions, but you can't 667 00:39:07,834 --> 00:39:09,467 really ask anything. 668 00:39:09,567 --> 00:39:11,000 Are they treating you all right? 669 00:39:12,467 --> 00:39:14,567 I'm all right. 670 00:39:14,567 --> 00:39:16,166 MICHAEL: And that never really changes, you know? 671 00:39:16,233 --> 00:39:17,867 Still 10 years later. 672 00:39:17,967 --> 00:39:21,100 Marc and I still, um, keep in contact 673 00:39:21,166 --> 00:39:23,100 a few times a year -- we just kind of 674 00:39:23,166 --> 00:39:25,467 usually keep it pretty light. 675 00:39:25,467 --> 00:39:28,400 He'll want to hear about, you know, things I'm doing and how 676 00:39:28,467 --> 00:39:30,367 things are going with my life. 677 00:39:30,367 --> 00:39:33,300 He said that since he had been arrested, 678 00:39:33,367 --> 00:39:34,833 that was actually, like, the freest that he had ever felt, 679 00:39:34,833 --> 00:39:36,133 that was actually, like, the freest that he had ever felt, 680 00:39:36,133 --> 00:39:38,867 because he felt like he knew he couldn't 681 00:39:38,967 --> 00:39:41,567 hurt anybody else while he was in there. 682 00:39:41,567 --> 00:39:44,600 But as far as an explanation, 683 00:39:44,667 --> 00:39:47,000 I don't know if I want one or not, you know? 684 00:39:47,066 --> 00:39:50,600 If that's something that he wants to get off of his chest, 685 00:39:50,667 --> 00:39:55,400 um, I would want to be there to listen, but up to this point, 686 00:39:55,467 --> 00:39:58,266 I've never really asked him anything about his case. 687 00:39:58,266 --> 00:39:59,266 I don't think it would offer 688 00:39:59,367 --> 00:40:02,133 me any closure or anything like that. 689 00:40:02,133 --> 00:40:04,033 It was good seeing you. 690 00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:04,833 Yeah. 691 00:40:04,833 --> 00:40:05,467 Yeah. 692 00:40:05,467 --> 00:40:09,166 MICHAEL: Part of me thinks that maybe he wants to talk about it, 693 00:40:09,266 --> 00:40:13,767 but then part of me thinks that, you know, it could drive 694 00:40:13,834 --> 00:40:15,266 us apart. 695 00:40:15,266 --> 00:40:18,567 When the time is right, you know, I'll kind of know. 696 00:40:29,867 --> 00:40:33,834 This situation just never -- never gets any easier. 697 00:40:33,834 --> 00:40:34,833 You get numb, more numb to the pain. 698 00:40:34,833 --> 00:40:37,667 You get numb, more numb to the pain. 699 00:40:37,767 --> 00:40:41,166 It's definitely hard trying to get past it. 700 00:40:41,266 --> 00:40:45,233 I wouldn't say that I'm angry with him, more sad. 701 00:40:45,233 --> 00:40:47,000 It's really hard to think of 702 00:40:47,066 --> 00:40:50,567 him as a sexually violent predator. 703 00:40:50,567 --> 00:40:54,266 I completely understand, you know, why the victims 704 00:40:54,266 --> 00:40:57,367 and people who are families to 705 00:40:57,367 --> 00:40:59,000 the victims would hate my brother, 706 00:40:59,066 --> 00:41:01,367 but I still have love for my brother. 707 00:41:02,567 --> 00:41:04,567 It's been difficult, you know, 708 00:41:04,667 --> 00:41:04,833 to -- to find that love and to maintain that love. 709 00:41:04,833 --> 00:41:09,567 to -- to find that love and to maintain that love. 710 00:41:09,667 --> 00:41:14,166 But, um, I think at the end of the day, you try to love 711 00:41:14,233 --> 00:41:16,367 family no matter what, you know? 712 00:41:16,467 --> 00:41:18,867 You always want to, you know, 713 00:41:18,967 --> 00:41:23,100 find it in your heart to forgive, and you always want to, 714 00:41:23,166 --> 00:41:25,233 you know, not be judgmental, 715 00:41:25,233 --> 00:41:28,233 but I definitely think, you know, in this situation, 716 00:41:28,233 --> 00:41:31,266 it's definitely put me to the -- to the ultimate test. 717 00:41:36,367 --> 00:41:40,233 I've never, you know, made an excuse for what he's done, 718 00:41:40,367 --> 00:41:43,467 but I just think that he definitely has a good side, 719 00:41:43,567 --> 00:41:45,567 and, um, 720 00:41:45,667 --> 00:41:47,834 you know, in my, 721 00:41:47,834 --> 00:41:50,467 um, experience throughout life, you know, 722 00:41:50,467 --> 00:41:51,967 that's all I ever knew. 723 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,066 I think of him as the person that I knew, you know, 724 00:41:57,133 --> 00:41:58,500 and in my heart of hearts, 725 00:41:58,567 --> 00:42:02,667 I know he's a good person, and he just fell victim to 726 00:42:02,734 --> 00:42:04,833 the -- the evil urges that were kind of eating at him.