1 00:02:37,032 --> 00:02:38,116 Got another one. 2 00:02:40,702 --> 00:02:41,995 "Wish you were here." 3 00:02:45,749 --> 00:02:48,251 "Dear Holden, it's been some time since we've seen each other," 4 00:02:48,335 --> 00:02:50,500 and while the memory of your voice has faded, 5 00:02:50,525 --> 00:02:52,530 what we discussed has not. 6 00:02:52,589 --> 00:02:54,257 I've had more insights into my behavior, 7 00:02:54,383 --> 00:02:57,260 which I'd like to share with you at your earliest convenience. 8 00:02:57,386 --> 00:02:59,221 "Warmest regards, Ed Kemper." 9 00:02:59,304 --> 00:03:00,639 Ed Kemper writes you? 10 00:03:00,764 --> 00:03:02,599 If OPR decides to pay a site visit... 11 00:03:02,682 --> 00:03:05,394 Fuck 'em. 12 00:03:06,895 --> 00:03:09,481 - Bill Tench. - Bill, Detective Chambers. 13 00:03:09,564 --> 00:03:11,420 Hey, Gordon, how's it going down there? 14 00:03:11,445 --> 00:03:13,008 You're not gonna be happy. 15 00:03:13,402 --> 00:03:14,736 Okay. 16 00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:16,988 I had Devier come in, suggested a polygraph. 17 00:03:17,072 --> 00:03:19,533 I wanted to see his reaction, and he agreed to it. 18 00:03:19,616 --> 00:03:21,410 - You polygraphed him? - That's right. 19 00:03:21,535 --> 00:03:22,661 And he passed. 20 00:03:22,786 --> 00:03:24,413 - Inconclusive. - Shit. 21 00:03:24,538 --> 00:03:25,997 We don't get that result too often. 22 00:03:26,081 --> 00:03:28,291 Because it only occurs six percent of the time. 23 00:03:28,417 --> 00:03:30,836 It usually has to do with how the questions are worded. 24 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,999 - Lab found Lisa's blood on the rock. - Inconclusive. 25 00:03:33,046 --> 00:03:35,048 Devier, he'd cleaned the car. 26 00:03:35,132 --> 00:03:37,426 - And so, no physical evidence. - That's right. 27 00:03:37,551 --> 00:03:39,010 Think that's bad, the inconclusive? 28 00:03:39,094 --> 00:03:40,714 Definitely won't put him away with it. 29 00:03:40,739 --> 00:03:42,621 Worst case scenario, he's exonerated. 30 00:03:42,681 --> 00:03:44,224 - Can you hold a moment? - Sure. 31 00:03:45,434 --> 00:03:47,194 - You get that? - They've got nothing on him? 32 00:03:47,227 --> 00:03:48,979 He was happy to take the polygraph. 33 00:03:49,062 --> 00:03:51,064 Now he'll be cockier than ever. 34 00:03:52,069 --> 00:03:54,109 - See if he'll talk to us. - There's no way. 35 00:03:54,110 --> 00:03:55,110 Ask him. 36 00:03:55,111 --> 00:03:57,904 How convinced are we that he's guilty? What percentage convinced? 37 00:03:57,988 --> 00:03:59,406 - Hundred percent. - I'm about 70. 38 00:03:59,431 --> 00:04:01,435 It is no accident that this tree trimmer 39 00:04:01,469 --> 00:04:03,100 was accused of rape in another county. 40 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,327 He'd have to be Mirandized. 41 00:04:04,453 --> 00:04:07,080 It's a death penalty state. There's nothing in it for him. 42 00:04:07,164 --> 00:04:10,500 He is a narcissist. Might just do it to prove that he can. 43 00:04:12,544 --> 00:04:15,338 Have Chambers extend an invitation. 44 00:04:19,843 --> 00:04:21,136 - Hey, Gordon? - Yeah. 45 00:04:21,678 --> 00:04:22,763 Here's an idea. 46 00:04:25,348 --> 00:04:27,017 Can you bring in Devier later? 47 00:04:27,476 --> 00:04:28,810 Sure. Tonight? 48 00:04:28,894 --> 00:04:31,688 6:00, 7:00 p.m. Casual, a little evening chat. 49 00:04:31,813 --> 00:04:33,893 Assure him he's not under arrest, but it's important, 50 00:04:33,917 --> 00:04:35,150 the FBI wants to talk to him. 51 00:04:35,567 --> 00:04:37,569 We're doing this after-hours to be more casual? 52 00:04:37,652 --> 00:04:40,322 Make it seem that way. He'll be tired, he'll let down his guard. 53 00:04:40,405 --> 00:04:43,575 Then he'll realize we're working overtime. We mean business. 54 00:04:45,243 --> 00:04:47,871 Once he gets to the station, let him wait before we talk to him. 55 00:04:47,954 --> 00:04:49,790 - Okay. - At least an hour. 56 00:04:50,499 --> 00:04:51,779 That's supposed to... 57 00:04:51,862 --> 00:04:53,947 You ever wait for test results in a doctor's office? 58 00:04:54,031 --> 00:04:56,087 We need to create in him a visceral memory. 59 00:04:56,171 --> 00:04:58,673 We need to elicit a physiological response. 60 00:04:58,757 --> 00:05:00,926 - We need a shoe. - A shoe? 61 00:05:00,927 --> 00:05:01,927 Ah. 62 00:05:01,928 --> 00:05:03,688 Something we used to crack another sociopath. 63 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,889 We need to find the equivalent for Devier. 64 00:05:12,062 --> 00:05:15,023 - Show me everything you got on Devier. - Brass. 65 00:05:18,193 --> 00:05:19,778 - This is it? - That's it. 66 00:05:19,903 --> 00:05:22,864 Okay, I need a lot more. Several of these folders, make them thick. 67 00:05:22,948 --> 00:05:25,534 Go to the copier. Use blank pages if you need to. 68 00:05:25,659 --> 00:05:27,536 I want it to look like Manhattan Yellow Pages. 69 00:05:28,745 --> 00:05:30,705 - Evidence room? - This way. 70 00:05:36,169 --> 00:05:38,338 What have we here? 71 00:05:43,426 --> 00:05:47,138 This is great. This is perfect. Where's her baton? Her twirling baton? 72 00:05:49,224 --> 00:05:51,434 - She didn't have that on her. - Okay. 73 00:05:54,062 --> 00:05:56,022 Take all of this to the interview room. 74 00:05:56,565 --> 00:05:57,640 Yes, sir. 75 00:05:58,108 --> 00:06:00,151 You have anything from where the body was found? 76 00:06:00,235 --> 00:06:02,237 Just on that shelf, the one below. 77 00:06:09,828 --> 00:06:10,829 Well, all right. 78 00:06:13,415 --> 00:06:16,334 - Is there a five and dime around here? - Right off the square. 79 00:06:16,418 --> 00:06:19,462 Get a baton, fine if it's cheap. Remove the price tag. 80 00:06:19,546 --> 00:06:21,006 - Drag it around in the dirt. - Okay. 81 00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:22,530 I don't want him to see evidence. 82 00:06:22,555 --> 00:06:24,504 I want him to see a sweet little girl. 83 00:06:24,634 --> 00:06:25,694 Hurry. 84 00:06:30,265 --> 00:06:32,017 Listen, when we get Devier in here, 85 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:35,145 I'm gonna ask him questions that may make you uncomfortable. 86 00:06:35,604 --> 00:06:37,810 Acing the polygraph just lowered his blood pressure, 87 00:06:37,835 --> 00:06:39,298 so sit tight, okay? 88 00:06:40,108 --> 00:06:41,109 Sure. 89 00:06:44,112 --> 00:06:45,822 All this an FBI thing? 90 00:06:46,865 --> 00:06:49,826 It's, uh... his thing. 91 00:06:52,078 --> 00:06:54,623 We have Devier coming across the street. 92 00:07:06,635 --> 00:07:07,694 Devier. 93 00:07:09,262 --> 00:07:10,430 Come right through here. 94 00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:27,656 So I'm going to have you wait down the hall here. 95 00:07:27,739 --> 00:07:30,158 Wait while the agents come in. Bring back smokes or anything? 96 00:07:30,241 --> 00:07:32,118 - Yeah, that'd be great. - All right. 97 00:07:32,744 --> 00:07:35,104 Don't know how much more information I can provide, 98 00:07:35,128 --> 00:07:36,873 but I'll help any way I can. 99 00:07:36,957 --> 00:07:38,875 They just want to talk to you. Through here. 100 00:07:53,181 --> 00:07:54,391 He's in there. 101 00:07:55,183 --> 00:07:58,061 Gene, hello. I'm Special Agent Holden Ford. 102 00:07:58,144 --> 00:07:59,688 - Hi. - Special Agent Bill Tench. 103 00:07:59,813 --> 00:08:02,107 - Hey. - Detective Chambers, you guys have met. 104 00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:04,317 Thanks for doing this. You've been Mirandized, right? 105 00:08:04,734 --> 00:08:06,152 - Again. - Great. 106 00:08:06,236 --> 00:08:08,154 We're gonna do this as quickly as possible. 107 00:08:08,697 --> 00:08:10,824 I'm sure you've got better things to do tonight. 108 00:08:12,784 --> 00:08:15,537 Army life wasn't for me. I'll admit that. 109 00:08:15,620 --> 00:08:18,855 Too regimented. Couldn't stand them barking orders at me all the time. 110 00:08:19,938 --> 00:08:22,276 I like things more laid back, you know. 111 00:08:22,335 --> 00:08:25,255 Working outdoors, the fresh air. 112 00:08:25,922 --> 00:08:27,966 John, my boss, he was great about hiring me, 113 00:08:28,091 --> 00:08:29,509 even with the discharge. 114 00:08:30,051 --> 00:08:31,602 It seemed like a perfect fit. 115 00:08:31,708 --> 00:08:33,704 Out in the weather, working with my hands. 116 00:08:33,763 --> 00:08:35,181 Military's not for everyone. 117 00:08:35,265 --> 00:08:37,434 You can't know that before you go in. 118 00:08:37,517 --> 00:08:38,560 You went voluntarily? 119 00:08:38,643 --> 00:08:41,354 'Nam was pretty much over, figured it'd be low-key. 120 00:08:41,438 --> 00:08:43,198 Looks like you've married and divorced twice. 121 00:08:43,273 --> 00:08:45,734 What can I say? I'm popular with the ladies. 122 00:08:45,817 --> 00:08:48,111 - Or unpopular. - Depending on how you look at it. 123 00:08:48,194 --> 00:08:49,612 I made mistakes. 124 00:08:49,696 --> 00:08:51,614 Married my first girl when we were 16. 125 00:08:51,698 --> 00:08:53,408 Just after you dropped out of high school? 126 00:08:53,491 --> 00:08:55,285 - Yeah. - Why'd you drop out? 127 00:08:55,744 --> 00:08:56,870 Trouble sitting still. 128 00:08:56,953 --> 00:08:58,872 School made me a little nuts, too. 129 00:08:58,955 --> 00:09:00,874 Wow, so you married your first girl. 130 00:09:01,708 --> 00:09:04,044 - Why'd you split up? - We were fighting all the time. 131 00:09:04,127 --> 00:09:06,287 - What about your second wife? - Same story. 132 00:09:06,311 --> 00:09:08,423 But you're living again with your first ex-wife? 133 00:09:08,506 --> 00:09:11,885 Yeah. I know. I know. It's kind of... 134 00:09:11,968 --> 00:09:13,595 Same story? Still fighting? 135 00:09:13,678 --> 00:09:16,139 - Sometimes. - But she's not 16 anymore. 136 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,059 Nope. Oh, no. 137 00:09:19,142 --> 00:09:20,977 The bloom of youth has faded. 138 00:09:23,271 --> 00:09:25,356 You all got a lot of information on me. 139 00:09:25,732 --> 00:09:27,317 The FBI is thorough. 140 00:09:28,026 --> 00:09:30,570 Yeah, well, what am I, some kind of gangster? 141 00:09:31,154 --> 00:09:32,238 Bureaucracy. 142 00:09:34,866 --> 00:09:37,911 Well, listen, I got to mosey out of here soon, so if we could... 143 00:09:37,994 --> 00:09:39,412 Of course. Of course. 144 00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:41,456 Let's get down to business. 145 00:09:41,539 --> 00:09:43,416 You're really important to us, Gene. 146 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:45,781 You were on Lisa's street the week before she disappeared. 147 00:09:45,835 --> 00:09:48,254 You had a bird's-eye view of the entire place. 148 00:09:48,797 --> 00:09:50,632 Yeah, but I mean, I didn't see nothing. 149 00:09:50,715 --> 00:09:53,343 You know, I was focused on them trees. You got to be. 150 00:09:53,426 --> 00:09:55,099 Especially when you're working the saw. 151 00:09:55,124 --> 00:09:56,662 Understood, but... 152 00:09:57,472 --> 00:09:59,641 we're kind of grasping at straws here. 153 00:10:00,141 --> 00:10:02,310 You're the closest thing we have to an eyewitness. 154 00:10:03,812 --> 00:10:07,482 Well, I took your polygraph. I'm an open book. 155 00:10:07,565 --> 00:10:08,625 Thank you. 156 00:10:10,401 --> 00:10:11,402 So... 157 00:10:12,487 --> 00:10:14,823 you must have seen Lisa coming and going that week. 158 00:10:14,906 --> 00:10:15,906 Not really. 159 00:10:16,366 --> 00:10:18,284 - Maybe once or twice. - Well... 160 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,288 If she wore that outfit, couldn't have missed her. 161 00:10:23,623 --> 00:10:27,710 Yeah. Oh, yeah, I guess I saw her in that a couple of times. 162 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:29,671 Feathered hat, silver baton? 163 00:10:29,754 --> 00:10:31,005 Uh... yeah. 164 00:10:31,089 --> 00:10:33,216 What time she catch the school bus in the morning? 165 00:10:33,299 --> 00:10:35,844 Well, let's see, I'd get there about 7:00, 166 00:10:35,927 --> 00:10:38,721 she'd come out maybe half hour later. 167 00:10:38,847 --> 00:10:41,975 And what time did the bus drop her back off? 168 00:10:42,333 --> 00:10:43,351 Oh, I can't say. 169 00:10:43,434 --> 00:10:47,063 Um, I mean, maybe 3:30, 4:00. 170 00:10:47,147 --> 00:10:49,399 Ever see her talk to anyone when she got off the bus? 171 00:10:49,482 --> 00:10:50,692 No, sir. 172 00:10:50,775 --> 00:10:53,403 Anyone on her street who looked like he didn't belong there? 173 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:56,406 Not that I can recall, but, I mean... 174 00:10:56,865 --> 00:10:59,450 I wasn't even working the week that she disappeared. 175 00:10:59,534 --> 00:11:00,593 Right. 176 00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:03,955 Oh, hold on, it almost ended. 177 00:11:09,127 --> 00:11:10,879 That's what she had on her that day. 178 00:11:16,175 --> 00:11:17,210 Heartbreaking. 179 00:11:19,053 --> 00:11:21,139 By all accounts, she was a sweet kid. 180 00:11:21,323 --> 00:11:23,407 Yeah, she seemed real friendly. 181 00:11:24,225 --> 00:11:25,301 You noticed that? 182 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,897 You know, just saw her playing in the yard with her dog, you know. 183 00:11:28,980 --> 00:11:30,857 I mean, I guess you could say she was... 184 00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:32,901 - Precocious? - Right. 185 00:11:32,984 --> 00:11:34,068 Did you ever talk to her? 186 00:11:34,861 --> 00:11:36,738 - No. - She ever talk to you? 187 00:11:37,697 --> 00:11:39,824 - Waved a time or two. - Hmm. 188 00:11:42,911 --> 00:11:46,664 - Was she a cheerleader? - Majorette. 189 00:11:48,541 --> 00:11:50,585 Those girls on the dance team are something else. 190 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,588 I always had the hots for them. 191 00:11:54,923 --> 00:11:55,998 I mean... 192 00:11:58,635 --> 00:12:01,638 she looks pretty tasty in that outfit, doesn't she? 193 00:12:04,474 --> 00:12:06,726 - Sure. - It's very revealing. 194 00:12:07,727 --> 00:12:08,937 Yeah, I guess. 195 00:12:10,605 --> 00:12:11,664 Come on. 196 00:12:12,357 --> 00:12:13,608 You guys don't think so? 197 00:12:15,652 --> 00:12:17,362 I mean... 198 00:12:17,445 --> 00:12:19,065 Definitely looks older than 12. 199 00:12:19,090 --> 00:12:20,514 See, that's what I thought. 200 00:12:20,573 --> 00:12:23,409 Okay. Thank you. So it's not just me? 201 00:12:23,493 --> 00:12:26,162 Well, these girls these days, they're developing so early. 202 00:12:26,245 --> 00:12:27,280 Sure are. 203 00:12:28,706 --> 00:12:30,708 Of course, Lisa was in junior high. 204 00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:33,211 Whoever picked her up might not have known that. 205 00:12:35,838 --> 00:12:38,174 I mean, I'm sitting here wracking my brain, 206 00:12:38,257 --> 00:12:40,301 trying to remember if I saw someone, but... 207 00:12:40,385 --> 00:12:42,145 We believe he thought she was older. 208 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:43,900 She was friendly, probably came up to him. 209 00:12:43,924 --> 00:12:46,349 He thought if they got together, it'd be consensual. 210 00:12:46,557 --> 00:12:50,186 Well, 14 is the age of consent. 211 00:12:50,728 --> 00:12:51,729 Is that right? 212 00:12:52,647 --> 00:12:53,723 Yeah. 213 00:12:54,190 --> 00:12:55,191 Wow. 214 00:12:57,735 --> 00:13:00,905 I guess Georgia's kind of forward-thinking in that respect. 215 00:13:01,656 --> 00:13:04,117 I mean, by the time a woman has hair on her pussy, 216 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,744 you'd think she'd be able to decide who gets a piece of it. 217 00:13:08,871 --> 00:13:12,083 I mean, yeah, man. I never thought about it like that before, 218 00:13:12,166 --> 00:13:13,646 - but, yeah. - But it's true. 219 00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:16,070 - Could make a case. - Some women shave down there. 220 00:13:16,094 --> 00:13:17,422 - You ever see that? - No. 221 00:13:17,505 --> 00:13:19,966 They look so young. 222 00:13:21,551 --> 00:13:23,761 - Have you seen it? - No, but heard tell. 223 00:13:23,845 --> 00:13:26,597 - I tried to get my girlfriend to do it. - You think she would? 224 00:13:26,681 --> 00:13:30,435 - She's considering. - What did you even say to her? 225 00:13:30,518 --> 00:13:32,086 I told her, "Honey, this turns me on." 226 00:13:32,113 --> 00:13:33,892 Just direct like that? 227 00:13:34,012 --> 00:13:36,059 Yeah, I don't know if she's gonna do it. 228 00:13:36,149 --> 00:13:39,694 Women have their own minds these days, but it sure would be hot, 229 00:13:40,611 --> 00:13:41,612 don't you think? 230 00:13:43,031 --> 00:13:44,032 Sure. 231 00:13:44,115 --> 00:13:46,784 You got to make it with that young pussy before it turns into Mom. 232 00:13:51,914 --> 00:13:53,291 She's chatting him up, 233 00:13:53,416 --> 00:13:55,816 maybe he's thinking she looks old enough to wear this outfit, 234 00:13:55,877 --> 00:13:57,258 twirl a baton, march in the band, 235 00:13:57,283 --> 00:13:59,233 probably got some hair on her, but not too much. 236 00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:00,840 Let's take a break. 237 00:14:01,424 --> 00:14:03,217 - You need a break, Gene? - Um... 238 00:14:04,635 --> 00:14:07,305 - No, I'm okay. - Well, I need a break. 239 00:14:08,931 --> 00:14:11,351 I am gravely concerned with this line of questioning. 240 00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:13,061 I told you, you need to relax. 241 00:14:13,186 --> 00:14:15,897 If it came out in court we suggested the girl flirted with him... 242 00:14:15,980 --> 00:14:17,940 - How would it come out? - He turned off the tape. 243 00:14:18,024 --> 00:14:19,067 Yeah, I saw that. 244 00:14:19,609 --> 00:14:21,235 I don't know about that, either. 245 00:14:21,944 --> 00:14:23,321 You agree with this? 246 00:14:23,446 --> 00:14:25,448 In theory. Not so much in practice. 247 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,369 I will take full responsibility for what happens in there. 248 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:39,962 Most people would call it a cherry picker, 249 00:14:40,088 --> 00:14:43,299 but the industry term would be a boom lift or a boom truck. 250 00:14:43,383 --> 00:14:45,116 What's the highest you've been? 251 00:14:45,189 --> 00:14:46,868 Well... 50 feet. 252 00:14:46,928 --> 00:14:48,679 - In a tree? - That's right. 253 00:14:48,763 --> 00:14:51,849 - But you're in a harness, right? - Well, of course, at that height. 254 00:14:51,933 --> 00:14:56,062 But sometimes you got to get out to get them faraway limbs. 255 00:14:56,145 --> 00:14:58,856 - Don't look down, huh? - No, that don't bother me no more. 256 00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:01,067 You saw Lisa waving to you a couple of times. 257 00:15:01,150 --> 00:15:03,069 Must not have been too far up to see that. 258 00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:04,529 No, I'm not too sure. 259 00:15:04,612 --> 00:15:06,572 - She ever talk to you? - No. 260 00:15:07,573 --> 00:15:08,866 But I already told you that. 261 00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,494 Hmm. Okay. 262 00:15:11,577 --> 00:15:13,329 Why? 263 00:15:13,871 --> 00:15:16,207 We have one person, said she saw the two of you talking. 264 00:15:16,707 --> 00:15:18,987 Well, I thought I was your star witness. 265 00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:21,020 Only one watching the street. 266 00:15:21,045 --> 00:15:22,922 Listen, you're a good-looking guy. 267 00:15:23,005 --> 00:15:25,466 Did she just come up to you, being friendly? 268 00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:28,678 She sees you up there every day, sweating away in the hot sun. 269 00:15:28,761 --> 00:15:30,763 Could she have maybe offered you a soda? 270 00:15:33,975 --> 00:15:36,352 She could've come up and talked to me. 271 00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,020 Can you remember? 272 00:15:39,689 --> 00:15:41,816 - I guess. - It's coming back to you. 273 00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:44,569 Just that... she could've talked to me. 274 00:15:44,652 --> 00:15:45,653 What did she say? 275 00:15:46,404 --> 00:15:47,905 - I don't know. - You don't? 276 00:15:48,906 --> 00:15:50,908 - No. - No idea at all? 277 00:15:50,992 --> 00:15:52,118 You weren't listening? 278 00:15:54,162 --> 00:15:55,621 I can't recall. 279 00:15:55,705 --> 00:15:57,957 She ask you about your work, your day, where you live? 280 00:15:59,167 --> 00:16:00,501 Something like that. 281 00:16:00,585 --> 00:16:01,669 Small talk. 282 00:16:02,295 --> 00:16:03,354 Sure. 283 00:16:03,838 --> 00:16:05,965 I bet she thought you were a handsome cuss. 284 00:16:07,175 --> 00:16:08,301 I don't know. 285 00:16:08,384 --> 00:16:09,760 You think she was pretty? 286 00:16:12,847 --> 00:16:15,266 We've already established she looked at least 14. 287 00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:22,064 - I guess I thought so. - You thought what? 288 00:16:22,148 --> 00:16:24,400 - That she was cute. - She was precocious, too. 289 00:16:24,984 --> 00:16:26,903 Didn't mind that you were older. 290 00:16:27,653 --> 00:16:29,197 She probably kind of liked it. 291 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:32,727 Yeah. I kind of thought she was into me. 292 00:16:32,752 --> 00:16:35,118 When your job ended and you weren't on that street anymore, 293 00:16:35,143 --> 00:16:36,362 you still think about her? 294 00:16:36,388 --> 00:16:37,388 No. 295 00:16:37,413 --> 00:16:38,669 You ever go back by the house, 296 00:16:38,693 --> 00:16:40,487 see if she wanted to talk some more? 297 00:16:41,083 --> 00:16:42,960 I mean, she started things, right? 298 00:16:43,044 --> 00:16:44,045 Kind of. 299 00:16:47,757 --> 00:16:49,342 What about this jacket? 300 00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:54,347 You ever see her wear this? 301 00:16:57,225 --> 00:16:58,601 Here, take a closer look. 302 00:17:08,903 --> 00:17:11,489 When you picked her up from the bus, was she wearing this jacket? 303 00:17:14,408 --> 00:17:16,244 There was a lot of blood at the crime scene. 304 00:17:16,327 --> 00:17:19,497 We haven't revealed too many details, but Lisa's skull was crushed. 305 00:17:19,622 --> 00:17:21,249 That blood goes everywhere. 306 00:17:22,041 --> 00:17:24,216 In crimes involving blunt force trauma, 307 00:17:24,241 --> 00:17:25,944 it's almost impossible for the attacker 308 00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:28,422 to avoid getting his victim's blood on him. 309 00:17:28,506 --> 00:17:30,716 The scalp has thousands of capillaries. 310 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,135 Blood sprays everywhere, like a fine mist. 311 00:17:33,219 --> 00:17:35,388 It gets in your hair, up your nose. 312 00:17:35,805 --> 00:17:37,932 I'd be amazed if you didn't get any on you. 313 00:17:38,015 --> 00:17:40,175 - He's washed. - What's under your fingernails? 314 00:17:40,199 --> 00:17:42,603 - It's just dirt, Bill. - We should take a sample. 315 00:17:42,687 --> 00:17:44,855 - He scrubbed his nails by now. - Is it in your ears? 316 00:17:44,939 --> 00:17:47,358 I bet. When was the last time you cleaned your ears? 317 00:17:47,441 --> 00:17:49,921 - You want to take a sample? - Can we do that? 318 00:17:49,945 --> 00:17:51,530 Yeah. I can arrange that. 319 00:17:57,702 --> 00:17:58,953 You've gone quiet. 320 00:17:59,412 --> 00:18:01,247 When we accuse somebody of murder, 321 00:18:01,330 --> 00:18:03,082 if they haven't done it, they won't shut up. 322 00:18:03,165 --> 00:18:04,325 They protest their innocence. 323 00:18:04,451 --> 00:18:07,120 Oh, God, yeah. "How dare you? Fuck you. I know my rights." 324 00:18:07,203 --> 00:18:09,964 A guilty guy will clam up, start listening intently, 325 00:18:10,089 --> 00:18:11,169 which is what you're doing. 326 00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:13,759 If a guilty guy yells to make you think he's innocent, 327 00:18:13,843 --> 00:18:16,554 - you can always tell the difference. - Sure can. 328 00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:19,515 Why do you keep looking at that rock? 329 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:22,018 An innocent man would have to guess its significance. 330 00:18:22,768 --> 00:18:25,229 It's what was used to kill Lisa, wasn't it? 331 00:18:25,313 --> 00:18:26,772 When things got out of hand. 332 00:18:27,982 --> 00:18:29,692 You didn't mean to, right? 333 00:18:29,775 --> 00:18:31,748 She came up to you, she seemed friendly, 334 00:18:31,828 --> 00:18:33,535 and then everything went sideways. 335 00:18:33,946 --> 00:18:37,283 The question for us isn't "Did you do it?" We know that you did it. 336 00:18:37,366 --> 00:18:38,868 The question for us is... 337 00:18:39,535 --> 00:18:40,594 "Why?" 338 00:18:41,537 --> 00:18:44,790 We think we know why, and we understand. 339 00:18:47,001 --> 00:18:49,003 All you have to do is tell us if we're right. 340 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:05,519 - Can you teach this stuff? - We should. 341 00:19:05,603 --> 00:19:08,773 Bill, why are not we teaching profiling at the Academy? 342 00:19:08,856 --> 00:19:11,776 Because we're still figuring it out. 343 00:19:11,859 --> 00:19:13,861 - You like this bourbon? - Yeah. 344 00:19:13,944 --> 00:19:15,029 Two more. 345 00:19:15,154 --> 00:19:17,823 Now, what I can't get over is the rock. 346 00:19:17,907 --> 00:19:20,576 He could not control his reaction. 347 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:22,578 - Everybody has a rock. - What? 348 00:19:22,703 --> 00:19:24,497 Something that makes them sweat. 349 00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:27,500 Like, for example, my senior year of college. 350 00:19:27,583 --> 00:19:28,764 I came home for Christmas, 351 00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:30,527 and I'm sitting at the kitchen table with my dad, 352 00:19:30,586 --> 00:19:33,005 and my mom brings over some eggnog. 353 00:19:34,256 --> 00:19:36,592 And she hands me a glass and she says, 354 00:19:36,717 --> 00:19:40,388 "Holden, have you had sexual relations with a woman?" 355 00:19:40,471 --> 00:19:41,471 - Jesus, no. - Yeah. 356 00:19:41,472 --> 00:19:45,059 And I say, "Uh, yeah, Mom, I have." 357 00:19:45,142 --> 00:19:46,852 And she says, "What's her name?" 358 00:19:46,936 --> 00:19:50,272 And I say, "Well, actually, Mom, there's been a few." 359 00:19:50,773 --> 00:19:52,525 Bottoms up. 360 00:19:52,608 --> 00:19:53,609 And then... 361 00:19:55,528 --> 00:19:58,406 Oh! And then she says, "Holden..." 362 00:20:00,032 --> 00:20:01,951 "who's going to have you as a husband now?" 363 00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:03,411 I'm telling you, 364 00:20:03,494 --> 00:20:05,079 if she asked me that again today, 365 00:20:05,162 --> 00:20:07,748 the exact same thing would happen. I would completely fall apart. 366 00:20:07,832 --> 00:20:09,208 She's your rock. 367 00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:10,960 Let's be clear. 368 00:20:11,419 --> 00:20:14,046 All he did was put the killer's murder weapon in front of him. 369 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:15,189 Bill, come on. 370 00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:19,051 We posited that the killer might feel guilty. 371 00:20:19,135 --> 00:20:20,553 And then, I just... 372 00:20:21,679 --> 00:20:25,099 created a situation where the guilt completely overwhelmed him. 373 00:20:25,224 --> 00:20:26,392 It wasn't guilt. 374 00:20:26,475 --> 00:20:30,104 It was the pucker of "Oh, shit, I'm going to the electric chair." 375 00:20:30,187 --> 00:20:32,773 How'd you come up with this stuff? 376 00:20:33,899 --> 00:20:37,695 By interviewing Richard Speck, and Jerry Brudos, and Ed Kemper. 377 00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:41,240 - You talked to them firsthand? - Uh-huh. 378 00:20:41,323 --> 00:20:43,451 And we've got Manson and Berkowitz on the wish list. 379 00:20:43,455 --> 00:20:44,475 No shit. 380 00:20:44,493 --> 00:20:46,454 - Unbelievable. - What are they like? 381 00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:50,458 Well, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn here when I say... 382 00:20:50,583 --> 00:20:54,086 they are fucked up. 383 00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:56,213 Amen. 384 00:20:59,341 --> 00:21:00,593 So what did you say to him? 385 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:02,887 I got him talking about how hot young girls are, 386 00:21:02,970 --> 00:21:04,472 how they look older than their age. 387 00:21:04,555 --> 00:21:06,348 - Ugh. - But it was the net effect. 388 00:21:06,432 --> 00:21:08,642 I laid out everything she had on her, 389 00:21:08,726 --> 00:21:12,146 a portrait of the last day in the life of a 12-year-old girl. 390 00:21:12,229 --> 00:21:14,565 So you staged it. Like a director. 391 00:21:15,149 --> 00:21:16,150 I guess. 392 00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:18,611 Only he didn't know he was playing a role in your drama. 393 00:21:18,694 --> 00:21:20,696 That is what made it a nail-biter. 394 00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:23,199 No one could have scripted the reveal of the rock. 395 00:21:23,282 --> 00:21:25,618 He completely freaked. 396 00:21:26,577 --> 00:21:28,454 You could suddenly smell BO in the room. 397 00:21:28,537 --> 00:21:30,289 - Pavlovian. - Guilt. 398 00:21:31,165 --> 00:21:34,168 But you were convinced he was guilty before you went in. 399 00:21:34,835 --> 00:21:36,378 Well, it was pretty obvious. 400 00:21:36,504 --> 00:21:38,964 Yes, but presupposed. 401 00:21:40,174 --> 00:21:41,926 Correctly presupposed. 402 00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:45,638 Is it a fair experiment if you're working backward from a conclusion? 403 00:21:45,721 --> 00:21:47,306 If your theory is proven right. 404 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,185 Holden, you drove him to an emotional response. 405 00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:53,729 I helped put a child murderer behind bars. 406 00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:55,064 Like Perry Mason? 407 00:21:55,856 --> 00:21:58,984 - That's right. - Only Perry Mason never got off on it. 408 00:22:00,194 --> 00:22:02,363 - Please stop analyzing me. - I'm not analyzing you. 409 00:22:02,446 --> 00:22:04,281 You run this commentary on everything I do. 410 00:22:04,365 --> 00:22:07,076 I was talking about your work. That's how we communicate, right? 411 00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:09,495 You talk about your job, I give my opinion. 412 00:22:09,578 --> 00:22:11,372 Maybe I don't always want your opinion. 413 00:22:11,397 --> 00:22:12,831 When I'm not in agreement with you. 414 00:22:12,856 --> 00:22:14,641 Could you just be my girlfriend? 415 00:22:14,708 --> 00:22:15,876 Could you just listen? 416 00:22:17,545 --> 00:22:19,505 You mean shut up and adore you? 417 00:22:19,588 --> 00:22:22,174 Well, you could try it. Once. 418 00:22:51,787 --> 00:22:53,998 Making furniture from human remains 419 00:22:54,081 --> 00:22:55,708 qualifies as organized. 420 00:22:56,417 --> 00:22:57,459 We're famous. 421 00:22:57,918 --> 00:23:00,504 This is apparently the talk of the Atlanta office. 422 00:23:03,007 --> 00:23:04,927 "Darrell Gene Devier cracks under the questioning 423 00:23:05,009 --> 00:23:06,468 of a new type of FBI agent." 424 00:23:06,552 --> 00:23:09,179 - Is that supposed to be us? - Who the fuck do you think? 425 00:23:10,014 --> 00:23:11,056 Who's named? 426 00:23:11,515 --> 00:23:13,100 Read the part about, uh... 427 00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:17,896 "Behavioral Science's bright-eyed boy who's friends with Ed Kemper." 428 00:23:17,980 --> 00:23:19,189 Who talked to a reporter? 429 00:23:19,273 --> 00:23:21,483 Probably your baby-faced drinking buddy. 430 00:23:21,984 --> 00:23:24,486 That was in confidence to a member of law enforcement. 431 00:23:24,612 --> 00:23:26,572 - While you were drunk. - Celebrating. 432 00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:29,074 "Using evidence from the crime scene, 433 00:23:29,158 --> 00:23:32,036 he managed to break through Devier's psychological barriers"? 434 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,579 This reads a lot like coercion. 435 00:23:33,662 --> 00:23:35,581 Worse, it sounds like horseshit. 436 00:23:36,123 --> 00:23:37,750 Devier was in that interrogation room 437 00:23:37,833 --> 00:23:40,419 because trees were trimmed on the victim's street. 438 00:23:41,045 --> 00:23:42,368 Good old-fashioned detective work. 439 00:23:42,393 --> 00:23:43,925 That got him in the room. 440 00:23:43,949 --> 00:23:45,466 We got him to confess. 441 00:23:45,549 --> 00:23:49,178 - You cannot be proud of this. - There's nothing egregious here. 442 00:23:50,012 --> 00:23:51,492 - Exposure could be good. - No. 443 00:23:51,555 --> 00:23:54,391 Can we all agree we are not ready for Good Morning America? 444 00:23:54,475 --> 00:23:55,851 I did not give an interview. 445 00:23:55,934 --> 00:23:57,853 Even if we were accurately represented, 446 00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:00,773 people should not be reading about us over breakfast. 447 00:24:00,856 --> 00:24:02,024 Why not? 448 00:24:02,107 --> 00:24:03,525 Just because. 449 00:24:04,151 --> 00:24:05,169 Bill... 450 00:24:08,405 --> 00:24:10,524 is it possible that you're upset 451 00:24:10,685 --> 00:24:13,075 because the article doesn't mention you? 452 00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:27,007 Hi, Susan. It's Dr. Wendy Carr. I need to book a flight tomorrow. 453 00:24:27,091 --> 00:24:29,635 I don't know what to do short of putting a muzzle on him. 454 00:24:29,718 --> 00:24:31,136 Please don't go back to Boston. 455 00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:33,097 Atlanta. Out of Dulles. 456 00:24:33,681 --> 00:24:36,475 - The same day if possible. - Why are you going to Atlanta? 457 00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,678 - I'm gonna talk to the Floyd County DA. - About what? 458 00:24:38,702 --> 00:24:41,355 It's in the article, they're prosecuting a capital case. 459 00:24:41,444 --> 00:24:42,539 So? 460 00:24:42,564 --> 00:24:44,555 So we can't be seen to be party to that. 461 00:24:44,608 --> 00:24:47,236 I'm sorry. Yes, I am. Can you give me that number again? 462 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:49,363 What? That's none of our concern. 463 00:24:49,446 --> 00:24:50,656 It's mine. 464 00:24:50,739 --> 00:24:53,242 - He slaughtered a 12-year-old girl. - I know what he did. 465 00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:55,828 Oh, uh, window or aisle, both are fine. 466 00:24:55,911 --> 00:24:59,039 - Georgia's a death penalty state. - I think I might need a car, too. 467 00:24:59,123 --> 00:25:00,749 What are you going to say to them? 468 00:25:01,250 --> 00:25:04,211 We're four interviews in. No one is gonna talk to us 469 00:25:04,294 --> 00:25:06,256 if they think we're sending people to the electric chair. 470 00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:08,203 No one in law enforcement will talk to us 471 00:25:08,228 --> 00:25:09,400 if they think we're squeamish 472 00:25:09,454 --> 00:25:11,218 about executing rapists and murderers. 473 00:25:11,301 --> 00:25:14,179 Oh, that sounds lovely. A convertible or a T-top. 474 00:25:14,263 --> 00:25:15,973 You cannot go representing the FBI. 475 00:25:16,056 --> 00:25:17,599 I don't intend to. 476 00:25:17,683 --> 00:25:19,687 They won't understand how you're connected to this case. 477 00:25:19,712 --> 00:25:22,087 If you don't see how this situation compromises us, 478 00:25:22,112 --> 00:25:23,851 Then I really don't know what to say to you. 479 00:25:23,897 --> 00:25:26,734 I'm sorry. I'm... I'm so distracted. 480 00:25:26,859 --> 00:25:29,069 Can you give me that number one more time? 481 00:25:29,153 --> 00:25:30,170 Go with her. 482 00:25:30,696 --> 00:25:31,947 You got us into this. 483 00:25:33,741 --> 00:25:35,409 Shut the door. 484 00:25:37,327 --> 00:25:38,746 I got it this time. Thank you. 485 00:25:53,427 --> 00:25:56,555 Follow my lead. I'm used to talking to law enforcement. 486 00:25:59,975 --> 00:26:01,514 District Attorney Mayweather, 487 00:26:01,615 --> 00:26:03,336 thank you for meeting with us on such short notice. 488 00:26:03,415 --> 00:26:04,722 Oh, Esther, please. 489 00:26:04,747 --> 00:26:08,031 I am delighted to meet the man who delivered me Gene Devier. 490 00:26:08,901 --> 00:26:09,943 My pleasure. 491 00:26:10,444 --> 00:26:12,446 Professor Carr's a consultant at the FBI 492 00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:14,740 and she has been instrumental in developing a program... 493 00:26:14,823 --> 00:26:17,659 I'm sorry. I have as long as it takes to finish this sandwich. 494 00:26:17,749 --> 00:26:20,609 We have been interviewing extremely violent offenders. 495 00:26:20,634 --> 00:26:22,194 The worst of the worst. 496 00:26:22,247 --> 00:26:24,666 This involves establishing an element of trust 497 00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:26,960 so that they offer information to us voluntarily. 498 00:26:27,461 --> 00:26:31,006 We try to be objective because what they have to say is valuable. 499 00:26:31,471 --> 00:26:32,835 But if they see that our techniques 500 00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:34,535 are being used to eradicate them, then... 501 00:26:34,593 --> 00:26:37,346 Now how would your techniques be used for that? 502 00:26:37,881 --> 00:26:40,154 Agent Ford assembled a psychological sketch 503 00:26:40,179 --> 00:26:42,159 of Mr. Devier, based on research, 504 00:26:42,226 --> 00:26:44,478 which was used to secure a confession. 505 00:26:44,603 --> 00:26:47,272 So if he's convicted and executed, then... 506 00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:50,067 Honey, we don't kill criminals. 507 00:26:50,692 --> 00:26:52,444 They kill themselves. 508 00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:53,695 What does that mean? 509 00:26:53,779 --> 00:26:56,657 It's their behavior that puts them in that chair. 510 00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:57,779 Actually, I think it's... 511 00:26:57,783 --> 00:27:01,119 When I talk to a jury, I always ask, "Do you watch TV?" 512 00:27:01,203 --> 00:27:02,371 Most of them do. 513 00:27:02,454 --> 00:27:04,623 I say, "Who watches the cop shows?" 514 00:27:05,457 --> 00:27:08,418 Right there you know whether you've got a smart jury or a stupid one. 515 00:27:08,502 --> 00:27:10,295 So I say, "Forget TV", 516 00:27:10,379 --> 00:27:13,090 'cause it'll never show you the experience of the victim." 517 00:27:13,173 --> 00:27:14,716 - No. - "You will never hear the cries 518 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,928 of a woman being raped on The Rockford Files. 519 00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:20,378 You won't smell burning flesh 520 00:27:20,403 --> 00:27:22,999 from the cigarettes being put to her body 521 00:27:23,024 --> 00:27:24,153 "on Hawaii Five-O." 522 00:27:24,178 --> 00:27:26,557 I'm not arguing prosecution strategies. 523 00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:28,981 - I'm simply... - And I'm not done talking. 524 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:33,527 My point is that when you go from an abstract idea of murder 525 00:27:33,610 --> 00:27:35,445 to the visceral reality, 526 00:27:35,529 --> 00:27:37,489 you can no longer be objective. 527 00:27:37,948 --> 00:27:40,909 Only when you feel the pain of those victims and their loved ones 528 00:27:40,993 --> 00:27:44,413 can you know the magnitude of the choice that killer made. 529 00:27:44,529 --> 00:27:46,829 And it's that choice that seals his fate. 530 00:27:46,949 --> 00:27:48,441 There's no reason to kill people 531 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:50,752 when we have the wherewithal to lock them up. 532 00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:53,839 These people spend the rest of their lives in horrendous conditions, 533 00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:56,442 which likely reflect the environments in which they were raised. 534 00:27:56,508 --> 00:27:57,794 Maybe... I'm sorry. 535 00:27:57,974 --> 00:28:00,119 But maybe instead of debating the pros and cons of... 536 00:28:00,178 --> 00:28:02,639 Yes, cut to the point. 537 00:28:03,098 --> 00:28:06,018 Are you actually asking me to shoot lower than capital punishment 538 00:28:06,101 --> 00:28:08,645 so it won't reflect poorly on the FBI? 539 00:28:09,771 --> 00:28:13,692 Not the FBI, our work in Behavioral Science. 540 00:28:14,526 --> 00:28:16,153 If it's compromised, 541 00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:18,780 I'm afraid we won't be able to achieve our ultimate goal, 542 00:28:18,864 --> 00:28:23,118 which is to hopefully prevent this type of crime from being committed. 543 00:28:24,703 --> 00:28:29,625 I am asking you to consider life without the possibility of parole. 544 00:28:35,297 --> 00:28:36,924 I'm an elected official. 545 00:28:37,466 --> 00:28:40,302 Here in Georgia, death is the will of the people. 546 00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:42,596 And if you don't want to be involved publicly, 547 00:28:42,679 --> 00:28:45,265 then maybe you should keep yourselves out of the news. 548 00:29:08,372 --> 00:29:09,456 What did you expect? 549 00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:10,874 A reasonable conversation. 550 00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,962 I don't know what I expected. I... 551 00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:18,840 I've spent months of my life and... 552 00:29:20,801 --> 00:29:22,678 I had hoped that we could complete our research 553 00:29:22,761 --> 00:29:24,367 before seeing it used to this end. 554 00:29:24,394 --> 00:29:25,788 What difference would that make? 555 00:29:25,847 --> 00:29:28,183 I wouldn't have to be in meetings like the one we had. 556 00:29:28,267 --> 00:29:29,935 So you could walk away clean? 557 00:29:30,018 --> 00:29:32,604 Come on, Wendy. You're smarter than that. 558 00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:35,065 Evidently not. 559 00:29:37,651 --> 00:29:40,862 There's no way around the death penalty in death penalty states. 560 00:29:41,446 --> 00:29:43,865 Which doesn't mean what we're doing is wrong. 561 00:30:07,014 --> 00:30:08,890 - Hi. - Hi. 562 00:30:10,475 --> 00:30:11,685 It's so nice out. 563 00:30:13,186 --> 00:30:14,187 How was your trip? 564 00:30:14,271 --> 00:30:16,356 Hot. Sticky. Miserable. 565 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,474 Georgia. 566 00:30:18,650 --> 00:30:20,569 - Have you eaten? - No. 567 00:30:20,652 --> 00:30:22,446 Great. You want to get something? 568 00:30:24,614 --> 00:30:26,199 It's getting late, we should get going. 569 00:30:26,283 --> 00:30:27,868 No, I don't think so. 570 00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:30,137 Okay. 571 00:30:36,418 --> 00:30:37,436 Are you still mad? 572 00:30:38,712 --> 00:30:39,729 Are you... 573 00:30:40,505 --> 00:30:41,715 What exactly are you? 574 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,550 Must I be something? 575 00:30:49,431 --> 00:30:52,059 These past couple days, I keep thinking about when we met. 576 00:30:54,811 --> 00:30:56,063 You were so sweet. 577 00:30:56,146 --> 00:30:57,272 And curious. 578 00:30:57,397 --> 00:30:58,523 I'm still... 579 00:30:59,274 --> 00:31:00,292 curious. 580 00:31:00,942 --> 00:31:02,002 No. 581 00:31:02,903 --> 00:31:04,071 You're different. 582 00:31:04,154 --> 00:31:07,491 I am the exact same person that you reeled in with that jumpsuit. 583 00:31:07,574 --> 00:31:08,867 I don't think that's true. 584 00:31:09,743 --> 00:31:11,328 But I'm not the same either. 585 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:13,413 Where you going with this? 586 00:31:13,955 --> 00:31:15,916 Just... thinking, talking. 587 00:31:15,999 --> 00:31:17,501 Thinking about...? 588 00:31:19,336 --> 00:31:21,171 - I don't know. - You don't know? 589 00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:22,672 I don't know. 590 00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:24,758 Jesus, Debbie. Come on. 591 00:31:24,883 --> 00:31:26,635 You're so good at reading people... 592 00:31:27,803 --> 00:31:28,820 you tell me. 593 00:31:33,767 --> 00:31:34,768 Okay. 594 00:31:35,644 --> 00:31:36,770 Well... 595 00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:40,107 when I first got here, you didn't get up to greet me. 596 00:31:40,524 --> 00:31:43,860 And you didn't invite me inside, but you won't come to dinner with me. 597 00:31:44,486 --> 00:31:46,238 You've been sitting with your arms crossed, 598 00:31:46,321 --> 00:31:48,949 which I know, from you, is a bad sign. 599 00:31:50,075 --> 00:31:52,911 You've been in a shitty mood the last ten times we've been together, 600 00:31:52,994 --> 00:31:54,830 and you're always starting arguments, 601 00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:57,999 and you've been assessing me in a very negative light. 602 00:31:58,083 --> 00:32:00,502 And in spite of your recent confusion about your degree, 603 00:32:00,585 --> 00:32:02,337 you stay up late every night doing homework, 604 00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:04,089 leaving me to go to bed alone. 605 00:32:06,633 --> 00:32:08,760 When I got here, you offered a sip of your wine, 606 00:32:08,844 --> 00:32:10,470 which could be construed as welcoming, 607 00:32:10,554 --> 00:32:12,714 but even though you knew I was coming from the airport, 608 00:32:12,738 --> 00:32:14,157 you didn't bring an extra glass, 609 00:32:14,808 --> 00:32:16,351 and half the bottle is gone. 610 00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:21,731 Which means you're trying to take the edge off so that you can... 611 00:32:25,152 --> 00:32:26,278 break up with me? 612 00:32:32,367 --> 00:32:33,785 Is that what I'm doing? 613 00:32:36,621 --> 00:32:39,249 Let's not drag this out. I'll pick up my stuff next week. 614 00:32:40,417 --> 00:32:43,253 I'll let you know when, in case you don't want to be here. 615 00:33:33,178 --> 00:33:34,179 Yes, ma'am. 616 00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:36,640 No, we're trying. It's slow. 617 00:33:36,723 --> 00:33:38,183 - Yes, indeed. - You take this? 618 00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:58,636 California Medical Facility, Vacaville. How may I help you? 619 00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:02,791 I got a message to call a Dr... Bruxton. 620 00:34:02,874 --> 00:34:05,377 - One moment, please. - Did you see who put this here? 621 00:34:06,002 --> 00:34:07,462 I just got in myself. 622 00:34:08,055 --> 00:34:09,130 ICU. 623 00:34:09,214 --> 00:34:12,926 Hello, I'm trying to reach a Dr. Bruxton. 624 00:34:13,051 --> 00:34:15,470 I believe Dr. Bruxton is in surgery. 625 00:34:15,554 --> 00:34:19,266 Well... I have a message to return his... 626 00:34:19,391 --> 00:34:20,392 One moment. 627 00:34:29,943 --> 00:34:31,945 Dr. Bruxton isn't available right now. 628 00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:34,531 I'm with the FBI, my name is Holden Ford. 629 00:34:34,656 --> 00:34:36,950 Oh, yes, he is expecting your call. 630 00:34:37,826 --> 00:34:39,619 Can you tell me what this is about? 631 00:34:39,703 --> 00:34:43,081 Uh, you're listed as medical proxy to one of our patients. 632 00:34:46,293 --> 00:34:48,753 I'm sorry, there must be some kind of mistake. 633 00:34:49,504 --> 00:34:53,258 I don't think so. Edmund Kemper specifically named you as his proxy. 634 00:34:54,843 --> 00:34:56,970 At this point, though, he is out of danger. 635 00:34:57,621 --> 00:34:58,655 Danger? 636 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,516 Mr. Kemper tried to take his own life last night. 637 00:35:03,727 --> 00:35:05,520 - Are you sure? - Yes, sir. 638 00:35:06,104 --> 00:35:09,482 That's impossible. I can't think that... 639 00:35:09,566 --> 00:35:11,860 Mr. Kemper came out of surgery at 4:30 a.m. 640 00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:13,862 He's doing well, he's in recovery. 641 00:35:18,575 --> 00:35:20,327 - Hello? - You need anything from me? 642 00:35:20,352 --> 00:35:21,692 The doctor will call if we need anything. 643 00:35:21,717 --> 00:35:22,762 Okay. 644 00:35:28,293 --> 00:35:31,004 It seems the Office of Professional Responsibility 645 00:35:31,129 --> 00:35:34,966 has found continuing evidence for their investigation into our unit. 646 00:35:35,050 --> 00:35:36,343 "Continuing evidence"? 647 00:35:36,468 --> 00:35:37,802 They've got the tape. 648 00:35:39,137 --> 00:35:41,598 - How the hell'd they get that? - I have no idea. 649 00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:45,935 But you three have been called to meet with them. 650 00:35:46,019 --> 00:35:49,564 And since someone has taken the high road for us, 651 00:35:50,774 --> 00:35:53,902 I recommend we all go forward with total transparency. 652 00:36:05,246 --> 00:36:06,322 Is this you? 653 00:36:07,832 --> 00:36:09,000 Fuck you, Bill. 654 00:36:36,486 --> 00:36:37,821 Please state your name. 655 00:36:38,071 --> 00:36:40,073 Special Agent Holden Ford. 656 00:36:40,198 --> 00:36:41,584 In what capacity do you serve 657 00:36:41,609 --> 00:36:43,392 the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 658 00:36:43,868 --> 00:36:45,870 I work in the Behavioral Science Unit. 659 00:36:46,621 --> 00:36:48,039 You and Special Agent William Tench 660 00:36:48,123 --> 00:36:50,750 recently interviewed an inmate named Richard Speck? 661 00:36:50,834 --> 00:36:53,169 - That's right. - Did you record the interview? 662 00:36:53,253 --> 00:36:55,380 - Yes. - Which of you recorded the interview? 663 00:36:55,463 --> 00:36:56,481 I did. 664 00:36:57,090 --> 00:36:58,505 You and Agent Tench interviewed 665 00:36:58,530 --> 00:37:00,151 several inmates over the past few months. 666 00:37:00,176 --> 00:37:02,150 - Did you record those, too? - Yes. 667 00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:04,305 - Who did the recording? - I did. 668 00:37:04,389 --> 00:37:05,682 For what purpose? 669 00:37:05,765 --> 00:37:08,643 Archival purposes, documentation. 670 00:37:08,727 --> 00:37:11,062 - Is this trying, Agent Ford? - I'm sorry? 671 00:37:11,146 --> 00:37:13,481 Do you find this process trying? 672 00:37:13,565 --> 00:37:14,858 I find it unnecessary. 673 00:37:16,234 --> 00:37:19,529 What did you do with the recording when you returned to Quantico? 674 00:37:19,612 --> 00:37:21,906 I gave it to Agent Smith to transcribe it. 675 00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:24,117 - Did he transcribe it? - Yes. 676 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,619 - And did you look it over? - Yes. 677 00:37:26,703 --> 00:37:28,621 Did you then decide it should be redacted? 678 00:37:28,705 --> 00:37:29,914 Yes. 679 00:37:29,998 --> 00:37:31,458 Why did you decide that? 680 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,706 I felt there was a section that might 681 00:37:33,731 --> 00:37:37,863 be deemed sensitive by other parties. 682 00:37:37,922 --> 00:37:40,425 "Other parties" meaning whom? 683 00:37:40,508 --> 00:37:42,677 Other people at the FBI. 684 00:37:42,761 --> 00:37:46,139 And people at the LEAA, which provides our funding. 685 00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:48,141 What section was this? 686 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,769 The section where I asked Speck why he took 687 00:37:50,852 --> 00:37:54,147 "eight ripe cunts out of this world." 688 00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:56,357 You suddenly thought that might not go over well. 689 00:37:56,441 --> 00:37:57,442 That's right. 690 00:37:58,693 --> 00:38:01,571 - Did anyone influence your decision? - No. 691 00:38:01,654 --> 00:38:04,324 Your partner, Agent Tench. Did he influence your decision? 692 00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:06,159 I made the decision on my own. 693 00:38:06,284 --> 00:38:09,245 What happened once you decided this section was too sensitive 694 00:38:09,329 --> 00:38:11,080 to appear in the transcript? 695 00:38:11,164 --> 00:38:13,166 I asked Agent Smith to take it out. 696 00:38:13,291 --> 00:38:15,919 - Are you Agent Smith's supervisor? - No. 697 00:38:16,002 --> 00:38:17,712 Who knew about the redaction at this point? 698 00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:20,715 I knew, Agent Smith, and Agent Tench. 699 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,760 When the three of you met with us to discuss Speck's complaint, 700 00:38:23,843 --> 00:38:26,513 whose decision was it to bring us only the redacted transcript? 701 00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:28,056 It was my decision. 702 00:38:28,139 --> 00:38:29,766 - An unspoken agreement? - Yes. 703 00:38:29,891 --> 00:38:32,477 Did you ask Agent Smith to lie about erasing the tape? 704 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,188 - Not in so many words. - What does that mean? 705 00:38:35,271 --> 00:38:36,773 I looked at him. 706 00:38:36,898 --> 00:38:38,942 I asked him to lie with my eyes. 707 00:38:40,527 --> 00:38:42,760 Did the redaction become known to other people 708 00:38:42,785 --> 00:38:44,471 in the Behavioral Science Unit? 709 00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:47,722 Is this amusing, Agent Ford? 710 00:38:47,747 --> 00:38:49,710 It might be, if it weren't so feeble. 711 00:38:49,735 --> 00:38:50,778 I beg your pardon? 712 00:38:50,803 --> 00:38:52,058 You think I don't know what you're doing 713 00:38:52,083 --> 00:38:53,603 with this principal's office bullshit? 714 00:38:53,849 --> 00:38:56,753 This is what I do with violent offenders, only much better. 715 00:38:57,043 --> 00:38:59,921 Agent Ford, you stand accused of lying to the FBI. 716 00:39:00,547 --> 00:39:02,215 Do you realize how serious that is? 717 00:39:02,298 --> 00:39:05,343 You used your badge to gain access to the California Medical Facility 718 00:39:05,426 --> 00:39:06,719 without any official approval. 719 00:39:06,803 --> 00:39:08,703 To interview our first subject, Kemper, 720 00:39:08,743 --> 00:39:10,205 whose feedback launched our program. 721 00:39:10,265 --> 00:39:13,226 We're not concerned with what you consider your achievements. 722 00:39:13,309 --> 00:39:14,669 We're concerned with your methods. 723 00:39:14,693 --> 00:39:17,897 The language used with Richard Speck in the unredacted interview 724 00:39:17,981 --> 00:39:19,816 reflects extremely poorly on the Bureau. 725 00:39:19,941 --> 00:39:21,484 How about calling him a shit stain? 726 00:39:23,954 --> 00:39:25,154 You see what I mean. 727 00:39:25,179 --> 00:39:27,388 Agent, listen to what we're telling you. 728 00:39:27,657 --> 00:39:31,953 Flashing your badge is one thing, suppression of evidence is serious. 729 00:39:32,537 --> 00:39:35,137 You're developing a pattern of behavior that will not sustain you. 730 00:39:35,161 --> 00:39:36,332 I just got back from Georgia, 731 00:39:36,416 --> 00:39:39,043 where my behavior led to the arrest and confession 732 00:39:39,127 --> 00:39:41,963 of a man who raped and murdered a 12-year-old girl. 733 00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:43,590 Surely my partner told you about that. 734 00:39:43,673 --> 00:39:46,434 Your partner expressed reservations about the way you handle yourself. 735 00:39:46,759 --> 00:39:48,219 You're playing us off each other. 736 00:39:48,303 --> 00:39:49,751 He substantiates our concerns 737 00:39:49,776 --> 00:39:51,861 about your comportment as a federal agent. 738 00:39:52,181 --> 00:39:53,975 We have that on tape. 739 00:39:54,058 --> 00:39:55,143 Fuck this. 740 00:39:56,895 --> 00:39:58,813 If you leave, I can't help you. 741 00:39:59,814 --> 00:40:01,570 I have to write a report on this. 742 00:40:01,595 --> 00:40:03,718 It will go down on your permanent record. 743 00:40:04,319 --> 00:40:05,945 You're making a terrible mistake. 744 00:40:06,029 --> 00:40:09,490 The only mistake I made was ever doubting myself. 745 00:40:20,293 --> 00:40:21,502 What'd you tell them, Bill? 746 00:40:23,212 --> 00:40:24,505 I told them the truth. 747 00:41:08,216 --> 00:41:10,885 Ladies and gentlemen, we will be landing shortly. 748 00:41:33,658 --> 00:41:34,659 Sign here. 749 00:41:37,578 --> 00:41:38,596 Thank you. 750 00:41:59,934 --> 00:42:01,185 Edmund Kemper? 751 00:42:05,898 --> 00:42:06,899 Thank you. 752 00:42:37,972 --> 00:42:38,973 You came. 753 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,350 You made it hard not to. 754 00:42:41,434 --> 00:42:44,228 Well, I tried less dramatic methods. 755 00:42:44,312 --> 00:42:46,731 - Did you get my cards? - Yes. 756 00:42:48,441 --> 00:42:51,861 Maybe it's not surprising you respond to showmanship. 757 00:42:52,987 --> 00:42:55,573 Why do you want to see me, Ed? 758 00:42:57,533 --> 00:42:59,452 I read an article about you. 759 00:43:00,036 --> 00:43:02,330 About us, I should say. 760 00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:04,499 The Atlanta Constitution? 761 00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:06,793 The story was picked up by the AP. 762 00:43:08,002 --> 00:43:11,464 - Oh. - You said we were friends. 763 00:43:16,135 --> 00:43:18,304 - Yes. - Are we friends, Holden? 764 00:43:19,013 --> 00:43:22,767 In the context of our work together, sure. 765 00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:24,268 Our work together. 766 00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,689 That's a nice way of putting it. I'd categorize it the same way. 767 00:43:30,775 --> 00:43:33,111 And yet, our work is unfinished. 768 00:43:33,611 --> 00:43:36,322 - Okay. - As I indicated in my letters. 769 00:43:37,031 --> 00:43:38,449 You have more... 770 00:43:40,034 --> 00:43:41,285 insights? 771 00:43:41,369 --> 00:43:42,403 I do. 772 00:43:44,038 --> 00:43:47,291 Well, I'm not going to trot them out like some kind of show pony, 773 00:43:47,375 --> 00:43:50,086 especially when you've been talking about me in my absence, 774 00:43:50,211 --> 00:43:53,214 using what I tell you to legitimize yourself. 775 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,383 That story was not... 776 00:43:58,302 --> 00:44:01,514 I... had had a bit to drink. 777 00:44:02,348 --> 00:44:05,643 What's this behavioral profiling you're touting? 778 00:44:06,936 --> 00:44:07,937 Well... 779 00:44:12,692 --> 00:44:16,028 it's a way to determine a criminal's psychology 780 00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:19,407 based on crime scenes and personal characteristics. 781 00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:21,075 I love that. 782 00:44:23,327 --> 00:44:25,413 What's my psychology? 783 00:44:25,496 --> 00:44:27,498 I can't really tell you that. 784 00:44:27,582 --> 00:44:29,417 You can't or you won't? 785 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:32,879 - It's shoptalk, Ed. - My favorite. 786 00:44:33,754 --> 00:44:35,631 We're at an early point in the research. 787 00:44:35,715 --> 00:44:39,302 Not so early that you can't babble about it in the press. 788 00:44:39,385 --> 00:44:42,972 And you pretty much admit that I started you down this path. 789 00:44:43,055 --> 00:44:47,685 So... I believe you owe me an explanation, Holden. 790 00:44:51,647 --> 00:44:54,233 You're what we'd call an organized killer. 791 00:44:54,317 --> 00:44:55,443 Mm-hmm. 792 00:44:56,027 --> 00:44:58,821 Because of the extreme planning that went into your crimes. 793 00:45:00,072 --> 00:45:02,241 You practiced picking up women several times 794 00:45:02,325 --> 00:45:04,160 before selecting your first victim. 795 00:45:04,285 --> 00:45:05,411 You used your own vehicle 796 00:45:05,494 --> 00:45:07,872 both in the kidnapping and disposing of the bodies. 797 00:45:08,664 --> 00:45:10,374 You followed your crimes in the media, 798 00:45:10,458 --> 00:45:13,794 which shows evidence of continued fantasy. 799 00:45:14,962 --> 00:45:16,130 Mm-hmm. 800 00:45:18,591 --> 00:45:19,800 That's the gist. 801 00:45:20,301 --> 00:45:23,512 You think you can boil me down to a single adjective? 802 00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,975 Of course not. It's merely a way to sort characteristics. 803 00:45:28,059 --> 00:45:30,061 - You're an expert now. - No. 804 00:45:30,645 --> 00:45:33,522 - Sounds like it. - I am not an expert. 805 00:45:34,023 --> 00:45:36,108 But you want to be, don't you? 806 00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:43,366 Yes. 807 00:45:50,581 --> 00:45:53,125 Human blood is very hot. 808 00:45:53,626 --> 00:45:57,129 On a cold, humid morning you can see it steam. 809 00:45:57,213 --> 00:45:59,048 What are you doing, Ed? 810 00:45:59,131 --> 00:46:01,926 Someone left a ballpoint pen on my court file. 811 00:46:02,009 --> 00:46:03,928 I used the metal casing. 812 00:46:07,098 --> 00:46:08,849 Is this what you wanted to see? 813 00:46:10,226 --> 00:46:11,936 Why would I want to see that? 814 00:46:14,355 --> 00:46:16,065 Take a closer look. 815 00:46:22,071 --> 00:46:23,948 That's okay. Really. 816 00:46:28,494 --> 00:46:31,622 You know, women were initially indifferent to me. 817 00:46:32,957 --> 00:46:35,209 They weren't interested in sharing. 818 00:46:37,003 --> 00:46:40,006 My whole life, no one wanted to interact with me. 819 00:46:40,089 --> 00:46:42,967 Not even our cats, when I was a kid. 820 00:46:55,271 --> 00:47:00,151 The only way I could have those girls was to kill them, and it worked. 821 00:47:00,651 --> 00:47:03,863 They became my spirit wives. They're still with me. 822 00:47:07,908 --> 00:47:13,039 Funny thing in the ICU, there's no system to alert the guards. 823 00:47:13,914 --> 00:47:17,710 It's short-sighted, seeing what kind of people come through. 824 00:47:19,420 --> 00:47:22,048 I could kill you now, pretty easily. 825 00:47:23,132 --> 00:47:26,510 Do some interesting things before anyone showed up. 826 00:47:28,471 --> 00:47:30,598 Then you'd be with me in spirit. 827 00:47:33,517 --> 00:47:36,729 I invited you many times to visit, 828 00:47:36,854 --> 00:47:40,399 but even with this, I never thought you'd actually come. 829 00:47:42,068 --> 00:47:44,070 Why are you here, Holden? 830 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:48,240 I don't know. 831 00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,412 Well, now... 832 00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:56,415 that is the truth. 833 00:48:24,527 --> 00:48:27,488 - Are you all right? - I can't breathe. I can't breathe. 834 00:48:27,571 --> 00:48:29,198 - Did you take anything? - I don't know. 835 00:48:29,281 --> 00:48:31,409 - Do you have any allergies? - I don't know. 836 00:48:32,326 --> 00:48:33,352 I'm dying. 837 00:48:33,392 --> 00:48:35,555 You're not dying. You're in a hospital. 838 00:48:35,579 --> 00:48:36,819 I'm trying to warn you, 839 00:48:36,872 --> 00:48:38,874 your attitude is gonna bite you in the ass. 840 00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:40,304 You're developing a pattern 841 00:48:40,344 --> 00:48:41,553 of behavior that will not sustain you. 842 00:48:41,578 --> 00:48:43,421 Not the gems you think you're mining. 843 00:48:43,504 --> 00:48:44,755 Are we friends, Holden? 844 00:48:45,923 --> 00:48:47,341 Get a doctor here! 845 00:48:47,842 --> 00:48:49,802 Who are you, the fucking thought police? 846 00:48:49,885 --> 00:48:51,094 Torture, mutilation. 847 00:48:51,178 --> 00:48:53,597 That is your world, and it has made you paranoid. 848 00:50:02,354 --> 00:50:07,354 synced & corrected by PopcornAWH www.addic7ed.com