1
00:00:06,215 --> 00:00:07,299
[metallic scraping]
2
00:00:13,013 --> 00:00:14,306
[grunts softly]
3
00:00:19,686 --> 00:00:20,812
[panting]
4
00:00:28,153 --> 00:00:30,155
[suspenseful piano music playing]
5
00:00:54,930 --> 00:00:57,599
[theme music playing]
6
00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:39,534
He never said a word.
7
00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:45,457
All kids have secrets. But this?
8
00:02:48,043 --> 00:02:49,628
He tried to tell us, Bill.
9
00:02:51,505 --> 00:02:53,799
He kept saying,
"I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mommy."
10
00:02:54,424 --> 00:02:56,426
- [Tench] I don't remember that.
- When he wet the bed.
11
00:02:57,302 --> 00:02:58,970
He hasn't done that in years.
12
00:02:59,346 --> 00:03:02,099
[sighs] Oh, God.
I... I thought he was ashamed, but...
13
00:03:04,351 --> 00:03:05,936
Was he trying to tell us, Bill?
14
00:03:06,269 --> 00:03:07,688
[Tench] I don't know, Nance.
15
00:03:08,063 --> 00:03:10,023
What did he think happened
to that little boy?
16
00:03:10,607 --> 00:03:12,067
They had to know he wasn't breathing.
17
00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,945
He wasn't a part of any of... of that.
He...
18
00:03:17,698 --> 00:03:20,325
- He watched.
- He knew enough to put him on a cross.
19
00:03:22,828 --> 00:03:24,496
He thought it would bring him
back to life.
20
00:03:26,957 --> 00:03:28,709
I never liked that Martin boy.
21
00:03:29,668 --> 00:03:31,753
I told you, we should
never have let him play with him.
22
00:03:31,837 --> 00:03:32,713
He's too rough.
23
00:03:33,338 --> 00:03:34,881
What if he'd done that to Brian instead?
24
00:03:34,965 --> 00:03:38,385
We both thought it was good
seeing Bri finally have friends.
25
00:03:40,762 --> 00:03:42,389
Are they gonna take him from us?
26
00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:43,682
I won't let that happen.
27
00:03:44,725 --> 00:03:45,767
He has a good home.
28
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,646
[phone ringing]
29
00:03:49,730 --> 00:03:50,731
[Tench sighs]
30
00:03:58,447 --> 00:03:59,448
Hello?
31
00:04:02,409 --> 00:04:05,328
Uh, I'm dealing with a family matter.
Can you tell him...?
32
00:04:07,122 --> 00:04:09,124
[sighs] Okay.
33
00:04:10,751 --> 00:04:12,085
Okay, I'll be right in.
34
00:04:15,255 --> 00:04:17,174
- Now?
- [Tench] Gunn wants to see me.
35
00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:19,384
I'll tell him I'm taking the week off.
36
00:04:19,468 --> 00:04:20,969
- A week?
- [Tench] Nance.
37
00:04:21,428 --> 00:04:23,847
I just meant
we need to get a handle on things.
38
00:04:24,723 --> 00:04:26,099
Find out what's next.
39
00:04:31,521 --> 00:04:33,523
[indistinct chatter]
40
00:04:44,075 --> 00:04:44,910
What happened?
41
00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:52,417
[sighs] I'm sorry, sir.
42
00:04:52,501 --> 00:04:54,002
I know I should be in Atlanta.
43
00:04:54,544 --> 00:04:56,671
- I got a phone call...
- Which is more than I got.
44
00:04:57,798 --> 00:04:58,799
Apologies.
45
00:04:59,216 --> 00:05:01,051
- I should have called.
- [Gunn] At the very least.
46
00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:03,136
The city has been begging
for federal help for weeks,
47
00:05:03,220 --> 00:05:04,888
and we are kicked out
in less than 24 hours.
48
00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:06,348
Yes, you should have called.
49
00:05:06,431 --> 00:05:09,142
I had to hear it
from the Atlanta office this morning.
50
00:05:09,351 --> 00:05:11,353
Apparently, Holden's introduction
wasn't well received
51
00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:12,854
by the safety commissioner?
52
00:05:12,938 --> 00:05:15,106
- Have you spoken with Holden?
- [Gunn] No.
53
00:05:15,190 --> 00:05:17,192
I'm asking you,
as the leader of your department,
54
00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:19,611
what did Holden say
that so offended the city?
55
00:05:19,694 --> 00:05:22,072
The commissioner's excuse
that this wasn't really a kidnapping
56
00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:23,865
was a convenient means to an end.
57
00:05:24,407 --> 00:05:27,285
- What did Holden say?
- Honestly, sir, nothing out of line.
58
00:05:27,661 --> 00:05:29,246
He gave the commissioner an overview:
59
00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:31,039
that we look for connections.
60
00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:34,167
He did explain he felt
there could be a single, black predator.
61
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,628
It may have been more how he said it, sir,
62
00:05:36,711 --> 00:05:37,796
- than what he said.
- How so?
63
00:05:39,047 --> 00:05:42,384
He might have gone into more specifics
than we can support right now.
64
00:05:42,509 --> 00:05:44,594
The impression from the Atlanta SAC
65
00:05:44,678 --> 00:05:45,846
is that Holden was trying
66
00:05:45,929 --> 00:05:47,389
to steer the investigation
67
00:05:47,472 --> 00:05:49,975
into "avenues the city doesn't want
to explore right now,
68
00:05:50,058 --> 00:05:52,727
- at least not publicly."
- Sounds like politics, frankly.
69
00:05:52,811 --> 00:05:54,479
Name me a major city
where there are no politics.
70
00:05:54,563 --> 00:05:56,815
- [sighs]
- [Gunn] We have to be smarter than this.
71
00:05:56,898 --> 00:05:59,526
If you sense that Holden is wading
into political waters,
72
00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:00,861
it's your job to stop him...
73
00:06:01,653 --> 00:06:04,573
or at least give me the opportunity
to anticipate the fallout.
74
00:06:05,532 --> 00:06:07,367
Yes, sir. You're right.
75
00:06:08,201 --> 00:06:09,578
I should've read the room better.
76
00:06:09,661 --> 00:06:11,913
We want them to understand
why they need us,
77
00:06:11,997 --> 00:06:13,790
not why they should be wary of us.
78
00:06:13,874 --> 00:06:14,916
I understand, sir.
79
00:06:15,125 --> 00:06:17,085
This cannot happen again, Bill.
80
00:06:22,591 --> 00:06:23,550
[door closes]
81
00:06:25,927 --> 00:06:28,889
- You couldn't have called me?
- Bill, it all happened so fast.
82
00:06:28,972 --> 00:06:30,724
Well, someone had enough time
to call Gunn.
83
00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:33,518
Barney told me
there was nothing we could have done.
84
00:06:33,602 --> 00:06:34,644
It's all politics.
85
00:06:34,728 --> 00:06:37,188
- I'm happy to talk to Ted.
- [Tench] No. You're not talking to anyone.
86
00:06:37,272 --> 00:06:38,690
And it wasn't all politics, Holden,
87
00:06:38,773 --> 00:06:41,776
until you started selling
your unsupported conclusions.
88
00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:43,778
You agreed
the perpetrator is likely black.
89
00:06:44,362 --> 00:06:47,240
Can you see, just for a moment,
how it might be perceived
90
00:06:47,324 --> 00:06:50,285
when you present a profile
without ever having been to a crime scene?
91
00:06:50,869 --> 00:06:53,788
Next time, shut up
until we've done some groundwork!
92
00:07:19,022 --> 00:07:20,982
- Sorry you had to hear that.
- [lighter clicks]
93
00:07:22,609 --> 00:07:23,652
You look terrible.
94
00:07:24,277 --> 00:07:25,111
Thanks.
95
00:07:26,363 --> 00:07:29,699
So, I take it
the Atlanta trip has been... curtailed?
96
00:07:29,783 --> 00:07:30,659
[exhales]
97
00:07:30,742 --> 00:07:31,576
[sighs]
98
00:07:31,868 --> 00:07:33,495
I can point the finger at Holden,
99
00:07:33,578 --> 00:07:36,623
but I'm supposed to be watching him.
Supposed to be his blinders.
100
00:07:37,082 --> 00:07:39,542
I let him get swept up in the moment,
impressing people,
101
00:07:39,626 --> 00:07:42,587
- then he must've stepped on a land mine.
- It's a full-time job.
102
00:07:43,922 --> 00:07:44,839
Yeah.
103
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,135
Look, I'll get better at it,
but I need to take a little time today.
104
00:07:49,761 --> 00:07:51,513
- Family thing.
- Everything okay?
105
00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:54,849
Yeah. You know, just...
I'll be back in tomorrow.
106
00:07:54,933 --> 00:07:55,892
Okay.
107
00:07:59,980 --> 00:08:03,024
Um... Gregg and I did Henley.
108
00:08:03,608 --> 00:08:04,526
Gregg?
109
00:08:04,609 --> 00:08:06,152
[Carr] Yeah. We thought you guys
would be gone for weeks,
110
00:08:06,236 --> 00:08:08,154
and we didn't want the interviews to lag.
111
00:08:08,238 --> 00:08:09,072
How'd he do?
112
00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:11,491
A little... hesitant.
113
00:08:12,409 --> 00:08:14,995
- [chuckles] He shit the rug, didn't he?
- [Carr] It was a team effort.
114
00:08:15,078 --> 00:08:16,788
The transcripts should be done
by tomorrow.
115
00:08:16,871 --> 00:08:19,708
[chuckles softly] Look forward to it.
116
00:08:25,630 --> 00:08:27,215
[door opens]
117
00:08:29,426 --> 00:08:30,343
[horn honks]
118
00:08:31,136 --> 00:08:32,303
We're gonna be late.
119
00:08:32,387 --> 00:08:33,388
We'll be fine.
120
00:08:33,471 --> 00:08:34,806
It starts in two minutes.
121
00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:36,975
So we'll miss the trailers.
122
00:08:37,892 --> 00:08:39,936
By the time we get our drinks
and our seats,
123
00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:41,688
we'll definitely miss something.
124
00:08:42,647 --> 00:08:43,898
This feels like a big deal.
125
00:08:43,982 --> 00:08:45,400
You're passing it.
126
00:08:46,067 --> 00:08:48,319
It's fine. I'm gonna get this spot.
127
00:08:48,403 --> 00:08:49,446
[parking brake clicks]
128
00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:51,364
Look,
it's just that I'm one of those people
129
00:08:51,448 --> 00:08:52,782
who needs to see the whole thing.
130
00:08:52,866 --> 00:08:56,870
Like, I like to get my popcorn, my seat.
I like to watch the trailers.
131
00:08:58,038 --> 00:08:59,372
A lot of people feel this way.
132
00:08:59,456 --> 00:09:01,249
- [clicks tongue] If you say so.
- [parking brake clicks]
133
00:09:04,294 --> 00:09:08,590
But it's gonna take me at least
another minute to pull into this space.
134
00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:12,177
[grunts] Because I am a really...
135
00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:14,721
slow... parker.
136
00:09:15,597 --> 00:09:17,724
We are definitely...
137
00:09:18,183 --> 00:09:21,061
going to miss... something.
138
00:09:21,144 --> 00:09:22,604
[brakes squeak]
139
00:09:27,442 --> 00:09:30,820
You know, I have an unopened,
very mediocre,
140
00:09:30,904 --> 00:09:33,615
probably spoiled, bottle of Chablis
at my apartment.
141
00:09:36,201 --> 00:09:37,035
Really?
142
00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:39,204
It has a screw top.
143
00:09:41,372 --> 00:09:43,083
I mean, how can I say no to that?
144
00:09:43,875 --> 00:09:46,127
[engine revs]
145
00:09:46,211 --> 00:09:48,630
[Carr panting]
146
00:09:51,549 --> 00:09:53,426
[moaning]
147
00:09:55,345 --> 00:09:56,763
[moans loudly]
148
00:09:57,263 --> 00:09:58,932
[sighs]
149
00:10:01,434 --> 00:10:02,352
Ah.
150
00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:07,732
What?
151
00:10:08,483 --> 00:10:10,443
Nothing. [breathing heavily]
152
00:10:15,949 --> 00:10:16,908
Do you have that wine?
153
00:10:18,868 --> 00:10:22,247
I thought for sure I had unsold you
on that. [chuckles softly]
154
00:10:24,749 --> 00:10:25,875
Hmm.
155
00:10:26,918 --> 00:10:28,461
- [sighs]
- [Kay grunts]
156
00:10:34,717 --> 00:10:37,011
[police siren wailing in distance]
157
00:10:37,095 --> 00:10:38,763
[dog barking in distance]
158
00:10:44,018 --> 00:10:45,145
[glasses clattering]
159
00:10:49,858 --> 00:10:51,109
[door closes]
160
00:10:55,238 --> 00:10:58,032
I didn't picture you living
in a place like this.
161
00:10:59,826 --> 00:11:00,743
[Kay] Small?
162
00:11:01,494 --> 00:11:02,495
Sparse.
163
00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:05,123
Your life seems very abundant.
164
00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:08,126
[Kay] Well, one's expansiveness of spirit
165
00:11:08,209 --> 00:11:11,004
needn't be reflected
by one's personal surroundings.
166
00:11:11,838 --> 00:11:12,672
Who said that?
167
00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:16,050
Me, just now.
Didn't you recognize my voice?
168
00:11:20,305 --> 00:11:21,389
He's adorable.
169
00:11:22,223 --> 00:11:25,018
Yeah. [inhales sharply] He's not bad.
[sighs]
170
00:11:26,561 --> 00:11:27,687
How often do you see him?
171
00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:31,608
I'm seeing him this weekend.
Gonna take him to a Dukes game.
172
00:11:32,317 --> 00:11:33,151
Dukes?
173
00:11:33,234 --> 00:11:34,652
[Kay] Uh, Double-A baseball.
174
00:11:36,738 --> 00:11:37,572
You miss him?
175
00:11:38,489 --> 00:11:39,407
Of course.
176
00:11:41,075 --> 00:11:44,162
It's just the idea of shaping another life
that terrifies me.
177
00:11:44,245 --> 00:11:45,830
I can barely manage my own.
178
00:11:47,498 --> 00:11:49,542
I still got milk crates for shelves.
179
00:11:49,626 --> 00:11:51,336
I've got real shelves,
and I don't think that shelves equate
180
00:11:51,419 --> 00:11:52,921
to any higher understanding.
181
00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:56,174
What you've done takes courage.
182
00:11:58,343 --> 00:12:00,762
I'm happy
that you're leading an authentic life.
183
00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:03,848
I'm happy to be here.
184
00:12:04,766 --> 00:12:05,808
With you.
185
00:12:13,566 --> 00:12:14,734
[clicks tongue] Me too.
186
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:29,916
I like baseball.
187
00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,294
- [chuckles softly] You like baseball?
- Uh-huh.
188
00:12:33,544 --> 00:12:36,047
I mean, I'm sure I would
if I ever went to a game.
189
00:12:41,594 --> 00:12:44,722
Wendy, I don't introduce my son
to people I'm dating.
190
00:12:47,267 --> 00:12:48,851
Oh, no. Of course.
191
00:12:49,227 --> 00:12:50,353
It's not...
192
00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,146
No, it's... it's fine.
193
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:54,440
I... I'm... I'm sorry. I shouldn't have.
194
00:12:54,524 --> 00:12:55,900
- This is not about you.
- No.
195
00:12:55,984 --> 00:12:57,193
Not specifically you. It's just...
196
00:12:57,277 --> 00:12:59,862
You... You shouldn't introduce your son
to people that you don't know.
197
00:13:00,446 --> 00:13:04,075
You know, I interview the by-products
of promiscuous mothers, and it's...
198
00:13:04,158 --> 00:13:05,618
I'm not saying that you're...
199
00:13:10,123 --> 00:13:11,708
[chuckles softly, sighs]
200
00:13:13,042 --> 00:13:15,420
Can we just go back
to just a few minutes ago,
201
00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:17,505
after I had the best sex of my life,
202
00:13:17,588 --> 00:13:20,008
and before I invited myself
to Little League?
203
00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:23,428
It's "minor league."
204
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,015
And... he would really like you.
205
00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:31,269
He's just... He's been through a lot,
and I don't...
206
00:13:31,352 --> 00:13:35,023
I don't want to freak him out.
You know, not until it's... something.
207
00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:41,904
Uh,
was that really the best sex of your life?
208
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,366
[chuckles softly]
209
00:13:47,702 --> 00:13:49,829
Nice save, the dyke mentor story.
210
00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:52,165
And just in time.
211
00:13:52,623 --> 00:13:55,376
[Carr] I had to come up with something
that would make him feel accepted.
212
00:13:55,460 --> 00:13:56,294
Well, it worked.
213
00:13:56,377 --> 00:13:58,463
But then he adamantly denied
being homosexual.
214
00:13:58,546 --> 00:14:02,050
He was actually more defensive about that
than he was about being called a sadist.
215
00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:04,302
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
216
00:14:04,385 --> 00:14:06,929
He protests a lot of things.
Rape, torture, murder.
217
00:14:07,013 --> 00:14:10,141
By saying that he didn't engage
in those aspects of the crimes,
218
00:14:10,224 --> 00:14:12,393
he characterizes himself
as a nonparticipant.
219
00:14:13,436 --> 00:14:16,147
It's amazing how he's able
to compartmentalize.
220
00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:19,650
We have to consider, Henley was a kid.
221
00:14:20,109 --> 00:14:23,404
He might view his participation
as having been beyond his control.
222
00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:26,407
He knew exactly what was gonna happen
to the victims he procured.
223
00:14:26,491 --> 00:14:28,785
And he made a conscious decision
not to intervene.
224
00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:31,371
So whether he participated or not,
he's culpable.
225
00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:33,915
I think there's a distinction
between procurement,
226
00:14:33,998 --> 00:14:36,042
as fucked up as it is, and murder.
227
00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:37,919
[Carr] Distinction, yes,
but not absolution.
228
00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:41,089
[sighs] I'm not excusing him.
I'm just asking,
229
00:14:41,172 --> 00:14:44,092
can a teenager be held responsible
for the actions of an adult?
230
00:14:44,675 --> 00:14:46,010
He was trying to please Corll.
231
00:14:46,094 --> 00:14:47,261
He was probably afraid of him.
232
00:14:47,345 --> 00:14:49,806
Actually, he seemed to be more
in thrall of Corll
233
00:14:49,889 --> 00:14:52,141
- than he was afraid of him.
- [Holden] So is that why he stuck around?
234
00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:53,643
He got off on watching Corll kill?
235
00:14:53,726 --> 00:14:55,311
How do we know Henley got off on it?
236
00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:58,314
"When I did something,
whatever it was, I enjoyed it."
237
00:14:58,981 --> 00:15:01,526
Bill, he assisted in killing 20 boys.
238
00:15:01,609 --> 00:15:03,444
What could possibly be defensible in that?
239
00:15:03,528 --> 00:15:05,530
All I'm saying is, he was 14.
240
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:08,408
Can we really lump him in
with Kemper and Brudos?
241
00:15:09,242 --> 00:15:12,537
Without Corll's influence,
would he have ever progressed to murder?
242
00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:13,621
[Carr] There's no way to know.
243
00:15:13,704 --> 00:15:16,124
But incredibly,
he acknowledges a deep connection
244
00:15:16,207 --> 00:15:18,709
with a man that he saw do horrific things.
245
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,211
Who even threatened to kill him.
246
00:15:20,294 --> 00:15:23,631
Maybe his need for acceptance
was more powerful than any moral boundary.
247
00:15:23,714 --> 00:15:25,341
And Corll exploited that.
248
00:15:28,136 --> 00:15:31,180
I've been thinking
that we should talk about our tactics.
249
00:15:33,474 --> 00:15:35,768
You know, we wouldn't have gotten any
of this if I hadn't...
250
00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:38,312
- Improvised?
- Maybe made some shit up?
251
00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:39,772
Touché.
252
00:15:40,231 --> 00:15:41,983
If we're going to teach
an interview technique,
253
00:15:42,066 --> 00:15:43,943
it can't be
strictly following the instrument.
254
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,155
So far, the only thing
that's worked is to talk about them.
255
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:50,408
[knocking on door]
256
00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:52,702
Sir.
257
00:15:56,706 --> 00:15:57,623
Henley?
258
00:15:59,083 --> 00:16:01,794
Quite a maneuver, Dr. Carr.
I thought I was reading Holden.
259
00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:04,964
Gregg, would you give us a minute, please?
260
00:16:11,053 --> 00:16:12,847
[takes a deep breath]
261
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:14,515
[door closes]
262
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,435
Assistant Director Wyman is coming down
in a few weeks.
263
00:16:17,935 --> 00:16:21,355
I'm having a small gathering at my home,
and I'd like you all to come.
264
00:16:21,439 --> 00:16:23,566
Of course. Be happy to, Ted.
265
00:16:23,649 --> 00:16:26,152
Wyman could be a powerful advocate in DC.
266
00:16:26,235 --> 00:16:28,237
I'd like him to hear our narrative
directly from you,
267
00:16:28,321 --> 00:16:29,489
the people who created this.
268
00:16:29,572 --> 00:16:30,406
Yes, sir.
269
00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:32,366
So, it's a working party.
270
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,328
Yes, but I want you
to have a good time, Bill. Bring Nancy.
271
00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,956
Holden, Dr. Carr,
please feel free to bring a guest.
272
00:16:40,875 --> 00:16:42,668
Thank you, sir. We'll plan on it.
273
00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:45,254
Oh, uh, one more thing.
274
00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:48,049
I got you Manson.
275
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,511
- When?
- [Gunn] Three weeks.
276
00:16:57,850 --> 00:16:58,684
Holy shit.
277
00:16:58,768 --> 00:17:00,937
We have to think carefully
about how we approach this.
278
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:02,146
Did he say Manson?
279
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:03,481
We approach it like we do every interview.
280
00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:05,316
[Carr] No. This is the first time
that we'll sit down
281
00:17:05,399 --> 00:17:07,860
with a subject
who hasn't actually taken a life.
282
00:17:07,944 --> 00:17:09,111
Now what would be valuable
283
00:17:09,195 --> 00:17:11,656
would be to look at him
from the team perspective.
284
00:17:12,198 --> 00:17:14,283
Manson was the undisputed leader
of his Family.
285
00:17:14,367 --> 00:17:15,743
Then that's our approach.
286
00:17:17,495 --> 00:17:20,623
[man] The ME's report corroborates
the testimony of the other children:
287
00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:24,001
that Brian did not directly engage
in the activities
288
00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:26,671
that led to the death of the victim.
289
00:17:27,046 --> 00:17:30,174
However, he was present
and, as he has admitted,
290
00:17:30,258 --> 00:17:32,760
he was the one who suggested
placing the victim on the cross.
291
00:17:32,843 --> 00:17:35,596
He thought it would bring Daniel
back to life...
292
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,683
Mrs. Tench, a child has been forever lost
to his family.
293
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:42,228
Brian seemingly acted without malice,
and because of his age,
294
00:17:42,311 --> 00:17:45,106
I'm choosing not to pursue legal action
against him.
295
00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:47,441
But the State cannot ignore
296
00:17:47,525 --> 00:17:49,986
that he had ample opportunity
to go for help
297
00:17:50,069 --> 00:17:52,905
or to speak with you, his parents,
after the fact.
298
00:17:53,239 --> 00:17:54,365
He chose not to.
299
00:17:54,448 --> 00:17:56,826
Either he was evading detection,
300
00:17:56,909 --> 00:17:58,869
or he has no concept of right and wrong.
301
00:17:59,370 --> 00:18:02,832
The State is obligated
to try to understand his motives
302
00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:05,876
to ensure he is not a danger to himself
or the community.
303
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,045
- A danger?
- I am transferring him
304
00:18:08,129 --> 00:18:10,715
to the Department of Health
and Human Services for evaluation.
305
00:18:10,798 --> 00:18:12,633
Will we be able to keep him at home?
306
00:18:12,883 --> 00:18:13,718
[attorney] Yes.
307
00:18:13,801 --> 00:18:17,305
You have been assigned a caseworker
and a mental health professional.
308
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,892
The court will render decisions
based solely on their evaluations.
309
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:25,187
Your compliance
in this process is mandatory
310
00:18:25,271 --> 00:18:28,357
and will be critical
in determining Brian's future.
311
00:18:29,859 --> 00:18:32,361
Social workers are underpaid
and overeducated.
312
00:18:32,445 --> 00:18:35,740
Don't try and sit this person down
and explain your way out of this.
313
00:18:35,948 --> 00:18:37,783
It won't go over well with them.
314
00:18:38,159 --> 00:18:40,870
No matter what hoops they present,
it's best to jump through.
315
00:18:40,953 --> 00:18:44,040
I thought once they found out Brian
was telling the truth, this would be over.
316
00:18:44,582 --> 00:18:46,292
We get to keep him at home, Nance.
317
00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:49,170
[Nancy]
To be poked and prodded by strangers.
318
00:18:49,253 --> 00:18:51,797
- A social worker?
- We don't have a choice.
319
00:18:51,881 --> 00:18:53,507
He didn't do anything.
320
00:18:56,552 --> 00:18:58,512
- Thanks, Art. I appreciate everything...
- [Spencer] It's all right, Bill.
321
00:18:58,596 --> 00:18:59,972
I've got kids myself.
322
00:19:00,890 --> 00:19:01,807
Take care.
323
00:19:08,272 --> 00:19:10,191
Why didn't you say something in there?
324
00:19:11,233 --> 00:19:14,028
- You won't defend your own child?
- It's not a courtroom, honey.
325
00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,031
Art's right,
we have to go through the process.
326
00:19:17,281 --> 00:19:18,324
[Nancy sighs]
327
00:19:19,033 --> 00:19:21,994
And maybe it's not a bad idea
for Brian to talk to someone.
328
00:19:22,578 --> 00:19:23,621
He's not defective.
329
00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:25,706
He's not a criminal.
330
00:19:26,957 --> 00:19:28,167
I know that, Nance.
331
00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:30,920
He's coming home with us.
332
00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:33,339
Today was a good day.
333
00:19:33,923 --> 00:19:37,385
[Charles Manson's
"Cease to Exist" playing]
334
00:19:37,468 --> 00:19:39,887
- [on player] ♪ Cease to exist ♪
- [sighs]
335
00:19:41,389 --> 00:19:45,351
♪ Just come and say you love me ♪
336
00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:52,316
♪ Give up your world ♪
337
00:19:53,859 --> 00:20:00,074
♪ Come on, you can be ♪
338
00:20:00,157 --> 00:20:02,243
♪ I'm your kind ♪
339
00:20:02,451 --> 00:20:04,745
- ♪ Oh, your kind, and I can... ♪
- [player clicks]
340
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:06,831
[Tench] Seriously?
341
00:20:06,914 --> 00:20:07,790
He's not bad.
342
00:20:08,082 --> 00:20:09,208
Just tough to promote?
343
00:20:10,418 --> 00:20:11,836
You're down the rabbit hole.
344
00:20:13,587 --> 00:20:15,423
Did I miss anything that matters?
345
00:20:15,506 --> 00:20:17,967
[Carr] No. We were just about
to start talking objectives.
346
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:19,719
Wendy is absolutely right.
347
00:20:19,802 --> 00:20:21,804
- Uh-huh.
- We're not asking Manson about killing.
348
00:20:21,887 --> 00:20:23,764
What we need to find out
is how a diminutive,
349
00:20:23,848 --> 00:20:25,766
uneducated ex-con
350
00:20:25,850 --> 00:20:27,601
convinced a group
of middle-class teenagers
351
00:20:27,685 --> 00:20:29,895
to brutally murder seven strangers.
352
00:20:31,564 --> 00:20:32,565
The killers:
353
00:20:33,357 --> 00:20:35,025
Susan Atkins, 19.
354
00:20:35,109 --> 00:20:36,444
Manson called her "Sadie."
355
00:20:37,153 --> 00:20:38,529
Church choir member.
356
00:20:38,612 --> 00:20:40,489
Linda Kasabian, 20.
357
00:20:40,573 --> 00:20:41,449
Good student.
358
00:20:41,532 --> 00:20:44,493
Described as a "starry-eyed romantic"
by her friends.
359
00:20:45,161 --> 00:20:46,996
Patricia Krenwinkel, 22.
360
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,498
Studied catechism.
Considered becoming a nun.
361
00:20:50,166 --> 00:20:52,460
Mary Brunner, 26.
362
00:20:53,335 --> 00:20:54,170
Librarian.
363
00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:57,506
And Tex Watson, 24.
364
00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:01,427
Honors student,
school paper editor, lettered athlete.
365
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:03,012
Looks like a high school yearbook.
366
00:21:03,095 --> 00:21:05,514
All grew up in average homes,
had high school educations,
367
00:21:05,598 --> 00:21:06,432
some had college.
368
00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:10,352
Then all became runaways
and somehow washed up in Manson's Family.
369
00:21:10,853 --> 00:21:13,522
With the exception of Brunner,
the very first Family member,
370
00:21:13,606 --> 00:21:16,776
their transformation to murderers
took less than two years.
371
00:21:16,859 --> 00:21:19,111
[Carr] Mary Brunner wasn't involved
in the Tate/LaBianca murders.
372
00:21:19,695 --> 00:21:23,449
[Holden] That's correct.
She was arrested with Bobby Beausoleil
373
00:21:23,532 --> 00:21:26,202
just two days before Tate/LaBianca.
374
00:21:26,911 --> 00:21:29,413
The pair killed a music producer
over a bad drug deal,
375
00:21:29,497 --> 00:21:31,457
but what's really of interest
is the scene.
376
00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:35,544
Brunner and Beausoleil tried to pin
their murder on the Black Panthers
377
00:21:35,628 --> 00:21:39,965
by writing "political piggy"
on the wall in the victim's blood.
378
00:21:42,927 --> 00:21:44,345
Now here's the LaBianca scene.
379
00:21:45,262 --> 00:21:46,263
"Death to pigs."
380
00:21:47,807 --> 00:21:49,892
And the scene at Cielo Drive...
381
00:21:50,518 --> 00:21:52,895
"Pig" in Sharon Tate's blood.
382
00:21:53,729 --> 00:21:54,939
Helter Skelter.
383
00:21:55,022 --> 00:21:56,565
It was Manson's theme.
384
00:21:57,107 --> 00:21:58,317
The prosecution's case
385
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,445
rested on his desire
to incite a race war as motive
386
00:22:01,529 --> 00:22:03,239
and his control over the Family as means.
387
00:22:03,322 --> 00:22:04,698
Ever heard of Krishna Venta?
388
00:22:05,241 --> 00:22:07,743
- No.
- Ex-con who declared himself a messiah.
389
00:22:08,202 --> 00:22:09,620
He founded his own church,
390
00:22:09,703 --> 00:22:11,872
preaching society was corrupt and doomed.
391
00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:14,708
He said there was a race war coming.
392
00:22:15,751 --> 00:22:17,753
Krishna said he knew a secret place
in the desert
393
00:22:17,837 --> 00:22:19,839
where he
and his flock could wait it all out.
394
00:22:19,922 --> 00:22:21,674
Then, when the war was over,
395
00:22:22,508 --> 00:22:24,844
they'd emerge
and create a new civilization.
396
00:22:24,927 --> 00:22:27,471
- That's right out of Manson's playbook.
- [Holden] Krishna's playbook.
397
00:22:28,973 --> 00:22:30,975
Manson stayed at his church in '68.
398
00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:34,186
He said, "It's like the spirit
of everything brought me there."
399
00:22:34,854 --> 00:22:37,189
Later,
he espoused exactly the same doctrine,
400
00:22:37,273 --> 00:22:38,649
calling it "Helter Skelter."
401
00:22:38,732 --> 00:22:40,985
Helter Skelter wasn't even Manson's idea?
402
00:22:41,068 --> 00:22:42,278
As borrowed as the name.
403
00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:43,612
[Tench] He's a fraud.
404
00:22:43,696 --> 00:22:45,447
Still, the question remains,
405
00:22:45,531 --> 00:22:47,074
how does a guy like that...
406
00:22:48,158 --> 00:22:49,451
get kids like that...
407
00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:52,538
to do that?
408
00:23:04,258 --> 00:23:07,761
Have you noticed any changes
in his behavior, self-soothing?
409
00:23:08,262 --> 00:23:09,138
Not at all.
410
00:23:27,031 --> 00:23:29,199
- Do you read to him, Mrs. Tench?
- Mm-hmm.
411
00:23:30,075 --> 00:23:31,869
He likes Clifford the Big Red Dog.
412
00:23:35,623 --> 00:23:36,999
Sports, Mr. Tench?
413
00:23:37,625 --> 00:23:38,709
[Nancy] He rides his bike.
414
00:23:39,209 --> 00:23:42,129
- [Tench] Almost off training wheels.
- But no team sports.
415
00:23:42,588 --> 00:23:43,422
No.
416
00:23:57,645 --> 00:23:59,396
What does he do when he's upset?
417
00:23:59,939 --> 00:24:01,482
[Nancy] He's not a big talker, but...
418
00:24:01,565 --> 00:24:04,151
he always comes to us
if he needs anything.
419
00:24:12,701 --> 00:24:14,370
And he attends the public school?
420
00:24:14,453 --> 00:24:15,287
Yes.
421
00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:18,999
Which has no special education department?
422
00:24:19,083 --> 00:24:20,501
- No.
- No, we've never felt
423
00:24:20,584 --> 00:24:22,086
he needed that kind of...
424
00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:23,420
Brian's just shy.
425
00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:25,839
I see.
426
00:24:29,635 --> 00:24:30,970
How do you handle bad behavior?
427
00:24:31,637 --> 00:24:33,013
Nothing extraordinary.
428
00:24:33,097 --> 00:24:34,974
Sent to his room, the usual thing.
429
00:24:40,145 --> 00:24:41,146
Corporal punishment?
430
00:24:41,522 --> 00:24:42,564
- Never.
- No.
431
00:24:49,571 --> 00:24:50,739
[caseworker sighs]
432
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,833
- Do you have a weapon in the house?
- I keep my gun in my office.
433
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:01,917
And you keep it locked?
434
00:25:02,001 --> 00:25:03,002
At all times.
435
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:07,464
[Nancy] Brian!
436
00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:13,929
Brian, come here. [chuckles nervously]
437
00:25:16,223 --> 00:25:17,099
Hm.
438
00:25:18,934 --> 00:25:20,853
This is Miss Leland.
439
00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:22,521
Ms. Leland.
440
00:25:24,523 --> 00:25:25,524
Hi, Brian.
441
00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,573
Bri, why don't you go inside
and read some Clifford?
442
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,241
I'll be right in.
443
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:36,827
Go on.
444
00:25:46,545 --> 00:25:47,463
Does he avoid you?
445
00:25:48,464 --> 00:25:49,882
He's had a tough few weeks.
446
00:25:49,965 --> 00:25:52,217
Ms. Leland, we love Brian.
447
00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:55,471
He may be adopted, but he's our baby.
448
00:25:55,554 --> 00:25:57,306
Of course he is, Mrs. Tench.
449
00:25:59,892 --> 00:26:02,478
At our next appointment,
I'll need the birth certificate,
450
00:26:02,561 --> 00:26:05,898
his medical records,
and all school reports.
451
00:26:07,316 --> 00:26:09,860
These explain the process.
452
00:26:09,943 --> 00:26:11,320
[flies buzzing]
453
00:26:11,987 --> 00:26:13,822
Basic child safety guidelines.
454
00:26:14,323 --> 00:26:16,909
I'll be stopping by periodically,
unannounced, to observe.
455
00:26:16,992 --> 00:26:20,788
We need to establish a baseline
for how he behaves in this environment
456
00:26:20,871 --> 00:26:22,289
to evaluate his progress.
457
00:26:22,372 --> 00:26:24,833
Then we can determine
whether adjustments need to be made.
458
00:26:24,917 --> 00:26:26,627
What kind of adjustments?
459
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:28,212
We won't know until we've spent some time.
460
00:26:28,629 --> 00:26:31,048
Your appointments with Dr. Moritz
will be every Friday.
461
00:26:31,131 --> 00:26:32,674
You'll both need to attend.
462
00:26:34,510 --> 00:26:35,344
Of course.
463
00:26:35,427 --> 00:26:37,930
We'll submit regular reports
to the commonwealth attorney
464
00:26:38,013 --> 00:26:39,515
with our recommendations.
465
00:26:39,598 --> 00:26:42,935
Ultimately,
he'll make all decisions moving forward.
466
00:26:45,312 --> 00:26:46,396
[fly buzzes]
467
00:26:50,692 --> 00:26:51,568
We'll see you.
468
00:26:51,985 --> 00:26:53,445
Yes, you will.
469
00:26:54,947 --> 00:26:55,948
[sighs]
470
00:26:57,699 --> 00:26:58,784
We do the exact same thing.
471
00:27:00,244 --> 00:27:01,411
[Nancy] What's that?
472
00:27:02,788 --> 00:27:03,997
Walk the crime scene.
473
00:27:04,081 --> 00:27:05,791
[car door slams, engine turns over]
474
00:27:08,127 --> 00:27:09,711
[Tench] Don't get too comfortable
around her.
475
00:27:10,963 --> 00:27:12,131
She's not our friend.
476
00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:21,390
[alarm bells ringing]
477
00:27:34,611 --> 00:27:35,654
[guard] Hold it!
478
00:27:36,697 --> 00:27:37,739
- FBI.
- [guard] Thank you.
479
00:27:37,823 --> 00:27:40,659
- [alarm bells continue ringing]
- [indistinct chatter]
480
00:27:45,164 --> 00:27:46,748
You hoping for an autograph?
481
00:27:46,832 --> 00:27:47,875
It's research.
482
00:27:48,542 --> 00:27:51,003
Try not to moisten yourself
before you get inside.
483
00:27:51,086 --> 00:27:52,796
- [Holden sighs]
- [man speaking over PA]
484
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,381
[indistinct chatter]
485
00:28:05,976 --> 00:28:07,603
- [door buzzes]
- [lock clicks]
486
00:28:10,439 --> 00:28:13,442
It's gonna be a bit of a wait.
He's refusing to come out of his cell.
487
00:28:14,318 --> 00:28:15,444
I'm stunned.
488
00:28:16,528 --> 00:28:18,405
- Any chance Kemper's available?
- [guard] I can check.
489
00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:20,365
No! Not Kemper.
490
00:28:20,449 --> 00:28:21,909
We came to see Manson.
491
00:28:21,992 --> 00:28:23,911
- We'll wait him out.
- Bill, I'll be fine.
492
00:28:25,829 --> 00:28:28,999
You need to ask Kemper about returning
to the scene of the crime, for BTK.
493
00:28:29,082 --> 00:28:30,542
We know he did that. He told us.
494
00:28:30,626 --> 00:28:31,877
But we need to know why.
495
00:28:33,045 --> 00:28:34,963
- I will be fine.
- [door buzzes, clicks]
496
00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:44,473
Besides, how's Manson gonna feel
when he finds out we're talking to Kemper?
497
00:28:45,474 --> 00:28:47,434
These guys are all jealous of each other.
498
00:28:47,517 --> 00:28:49,561
- [recorder whirring]
- [Kemper] For the use of reason
499
00:28:49,645 --> 00:28:55,150
is to justify the obscure desires
that move our conduct,
500
00:28:55,901 --> 00:28:58,403
impulses, passions,
501
00:28:58,487 --> 00:29:00,948
- prejudice, and follies.
- [door buzzes, clicks]
502
00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:06,703
Gentlemen.
503
00:29:07,371 --> 00:29:08,664
What a surprise.
504
00:29:12,084 --> 00:29:13,835
- Bill.
- [Tench] Ed.
505
00:29:14,962 --> 00:29:15,963
Holden.
506
00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:18,632
Good to see you, Ed.
507
00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:20,467
Have a seat.
508
00:29:24,263 --> 00:29:26,640
Do you know that Holden came to see me
509
00:29:27,808 --> 00:29:29,268
when I was in the hospital?
510
00:29:29,685 --> 00:29:30,769
[clicks tongue] I'm aware.
511
00:29:30,852 --> 00:29:32,562
It really meant a lot to me.
512
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:35,899
That's what friends are for, right?
513
00:29:39,736 --> 00:29:41,738
So, Manson, huh? [sighs]
514
00:29:41,947 --> 00:29:43,198
Word travels fast.
515
00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:45,951
Oh, it's hard to keep
something like that quiet.
516
00:29:46,034 --> 00:29:48,495
Everybody knows when Charlie takes a shit.
517
00:29:48,578 --> 00:29:51,290
And if you haven't heard,
he'll tell you all about it.
518
00:29:51,832 --> 00:29:53,875
Even if somebody else took the shit
for him.
519
00:29:53,959 --> 00:29:56,837
- [chuckles] Right.
- [Kemper] He's never done that.
520
00:29:57,587 --> 00:29:59,006
Doesn't know what it's like.
521
00:29:59,298 --> 00:30:01,174
You're saying
he's not worth our attention?
522
00:30:01,258 --> 00:30:04,261
[Kemper] The "mayhem" has been
copiously mythologized.
523
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:07,347
If you really want to understand
how that all went down,
524
00:30:07,431 --> 00:30:08,640
you should talk to Tex.
525
00:30:09,057 --> 00:30:10,976
- [Tench] The all-American pawn?
- [Kemper] Yeah.
526
00:30:11,643 --> 00:30:13,729
- I'm sure you're right, Bill.
- [Holden] We'll keep that in mind.
527
00:30:13,812 --> 00:30:15,772
But we didn't come here
to talk about Manson.
528
00:30:15,856 --> 00:30:18,066
- [recorder case clicks]
- Oh.
529
00:30:19,901 --> 00:30:22,487
- [player clicks]
- [Kemper] What did you want to talk about?
530
00:30:23,947 --> 00:30:25,324
You, Ed.
531
00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:29,161
I wanted to ask you
about something you said a while back.
532
00:30:29,244 --> 00:30:31,663
About revisiting
the sites of your victims.
533
00:30:32,164 --> 00:30:32,998
Mm-hmm?
534
00:30:33,749 --> 00:30:34,833
Why did you do that?
535
00:30:36,084 --> 00:30:39,046
Well, at the murder site,
I could relive the experience.
536
00:30:39,129 --> 00:30:40,630
Feel the same elation,
537
00:30:41,089 --> 00:30:42,716
the incredible release.
538
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:43,842
It excited you.
539
00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:45,552
Yes.
540
00:30:46,762 --> 00:30:49,473
I would also relive
the sexual gratification.
541
00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:52,100
What would make you decide to visit?
542
00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:56,396
The feeling of complete dominance,
total possession you get from a kill,
543
00:30:57,189 --> 00:30:58,440
becomes a need.
544
00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:01,568
That need builds
until it becomes a compulsion
545
00:31:01,651 --> 00:31:03,904
to a point that you have to hunt again.
546
00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:06,990
Sometimes, I could stave off that need
547
00:31:07,366 --> 00:31:09,326
by remembering the moment of the kill.
548
00:31:10,494 --> 00:31:13,413
You can really savor that
when you're in the exact spot.
549
00:31:13,497 --> 00:31:15,123
What if you can't make it to a site?
550
00:31:15,207 --> 00:31:16,500
Too many people around.
551
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:21,004
I kept things. Little trinkets.
Reminders of my experience.
552
00:31:21,088 --> 00:31:21,963
The Polaroids.
553
00:31:22,047 --> 00:31:24,049
I could hold them. Possess them.
554
00:31:24,591 --> 00:31:25,675
They were souvenirs.
555
00:31:25,967 --> 00:31:27,594
[Holden]
Was there a specific amount of time,
556
00:31:27,677 --> 00:31:31,306
something you could measure,
when the "souvenirs" weren't enough?
557
00:31:34,643 --> 00:31:36,520
Have you got somebody, Holden?
558
00:31:38,855 --> 00:31:40,065
Someone you can't catch?
559
00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:44,319
Is that right, Bill?
560
00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:47,614
Who is it? The East Area Rapist?
The San Mateo Slasher?
561
00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:50,075
I-45 Killer down in Texas?
562
00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:55,956
You've found somebody
who hasn't made the news yet.
563
00:31:57,416 --> 00:31:58,625
Just startin' out.
564
00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:00,794
Would you have any thoughts
on someone like that?
565
00:32:01,461 --> 00:32:02,504
Of course.
566
00:32:03,964 --> 00:32:06,716
But I'd have to be acquainted
with the pertinent facts.
567
00:32:07,634 --> 00:32:10,554
We can't discuss ongoing investigations,
Ed.
568
00:32:11,138 --> 00:32:12,097
With anyone.
569
00:32:12,556 --> 00:32:13,807
I'm sure you understand.
570
00:32:14,224 --> 00:32:15,183
Of course, Bill.
571
00:32:21,231 --> 00:32:23,150
It's a taxing lifestyle.
572
00:32:23,817 --> 00:32:26,611
A lot of factors that go into success.
573
00:32:27,237 --> 00:32:28,613
As I got better,
574
00:32:29,322 --> 00:32:32,951
I was very careful
that all conditions were exactly right.
575
00:32:36,788 --> 00:32:41,084
This person you're after,
he has an overwhelming fantasy life.
576
00:32:42,294 --> 00:32:45,755
Fantasies of what he's done,
what he wants to do,
577
00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:48,425
how he's going to improve.
578
00:32:50,552 --> 00:32:52,387
These dreams will consume him.
579
00:32:52,888 --> 00:32:55,140
Soon, the real world won't even compare.
580
00:32:57,142 --> 00:32:58,560
How do we catch a fantasy, Ed?
581
00:32:59,769 --> 00:33:01,480
You can't. If he's any good,
582
00:33:02,439 --> 00:33:03,440
you'll never see it.
583
00:33:03,523 --> 00:33:06,860
He'll live like any other person,
have relationships, hold down a job.
584
00:33:06,943 --> 00:33:09,488
We know killers don't have the tools
to manage real life.
585
00:33:09,863 --> 00:33:11,573
They come from marginalized backgrounds,
586
00:33:11,656 --> 00:33:14,367
they break under the pressure
of what they've done. They make mistakes.
587
00:33:16,411 --> 00:33:18,955
It seems to me
everything you know about serial killers
588
00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,416
has been gleaned
from the ones who've been caught.
589
00:33:22,501 --> 00:33:24,503
[alarm buzzes]
590
00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:27,339
[guard] He's ready.
591
00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:30,759
Sorry, Ed.
592
00:33:31,218 --> 00:33:33,929
- [clears throat]
- That's all right, Bill.
593
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,682
Did you save enough tape
for the charlatan?
594
00:33:37,766 --> 00:33:38,934
I brought extra.
595
00:33:39,017 --> 00:33:40,435
You'll need it. He's a talker.
596
00:33:42,145 --> 00:33:43,563
I'm still trying to write my book.
597
00:33:43,647 --> 00:33:45,857
I just need access to a typewriter.
598
00:33:46,024 --> 00:33:48,527
- [Tench] Yeah, we'll see what we can do.
- [Kemper] Thank you, Bill.
599
00:33:48,610 --> 00:33:49,694
See you around.
600
00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:52,405
One more thing.
601
00:33:53,615 --> 00:33:55,408
Manson is really small.
602
00:33:56,326 --> 00:33:57,744
Like, really small.
603
00:33:58,578 --> 00:33:59,663
Try not to stare.
604
00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:06,378
[inmates clamoring]
605
00:34:07,128 --> 00:34:08,421
[inmate 1] Suck my dick!
606
00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:13,426
[inmate 2] That's my bitch!
607
00:34:16,930 --> 00:34:18,098
Fuck you, man!
608
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:20,684
[inmate 3] Fuck you!
609
00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:22,769
[shouting grows louder]
610
00:34:24,396 --> 00:34:26,481
[inmate 4] Fuck you! Fuck you!
611
00:34:33,488 --> 00:34:35,073
[door buzzes]
612
00:34:45,041 --> 00:34:46,793
Do you think we should talk to Tex?
613
00:34:47,294 --> 00:34:49,462
You realize Kemper keeps reeling you in?
614
00:34:49,546 --> 00:34:52,090
He's the most cogent,
credible subject we've ever interviewed.
615
00:34:52,173 --> 00:34:53,008
The bar is low.
616
00:34:53,091 --> 00:34:54,301
[Holden]
If Kemper hadn't turned himself in,
617
00:34:54,384 --> 00:34:56,136
he could've avoided capture
for as long as he wanted.
618
00:34:56,219 --> 00:34:57,554
He's an incredible resource.
619
00:34:58,179 --> 00:34:59,431
You bought a new microphone.
620
00:35:01,558 --> 00:35:02,559
For posterity.
621
00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:04,477
- [door opens]
- [shackles rattling]
622
00:35:13,111 --> 00:35:15,322
- [door closes]
- Like a fucking king.
623
00:35:15,405 --> 00:35:16,656
[door buzzes]
624
00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:22,746
Uncuff him, please.
625
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:34,507
All of them.
626
00:35:36,176 --> 00:35:37,594
I'm Special Agent Tench.
627
00:35:38,011 --> 00:35:39,429
This is Special Agent Ford.
628
00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:42,432
This isn't an interrogation, Mr. Manson.
629
00:35:42,515 --> 00:35:45,352
We know that you didn't commit the Tate
or LaBianca murders.
630
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:48,605
What we're interested in
is your relationship with your Family.
631
00:35:48,688 --> 00:35:51,107
And what bearing that relationship had
on the crimes.
632
00:35:51,733 --> 00:35:52,567
Please.
633
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:01,034
[Holden] We'd like to hear from you,
634
00:36:01,117 --> 00:36:03,203
- in your own words, about what happened.
- [door whirs]
635
00:36:05,288 --> 00:36:06,915
[clangs]
636
00:36:20,345 --> 00:36:21,888
Do you mind if we record this?
637
00:36:21,971 --> 00:36:23,723
[inmates clamoring in distance]
638
00:36:28,103 --> 00:36:30,313
Over the years,
some members have blamed you
639
00:36:30,397 --> 00:36:31,231
for the murders,
640
00:36:31,731 --> 00:36:33,108
then changed their story.
641
00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:36,361
Others, quite famously,
have protected you.
642
00:36:36,778 --> 00:36:39,197
You seem to have a hold on them
even from prison.
643
00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,491
But no matter what they say,
644
00:36:41,825 --> 00:36:43,368
you maintain the same story.
645
00:36:43,868 --> 00:36:45,704
Because my truth is simple.
646
00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,040
- And your truth's complicated.
- Complicated how?
647
00:36:49,249 --> 00:36:51,960
[Manson] Well, you don't see it,
but the only truth is now.
648
00:36:52,293 --> 00:36:54,546
Now is the only thing that's real.
649
00:36:54,629 --> 00:36:57,090
Well, we're mainly interested in then.
650
00:36:57,173 --> 00:36:58,883
How you met, influenced,
651
00:36:58,967 --> 00:37:00,802
and indoctrinated the people
who followed you.
652
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:02,470
[chuckles] Indoctrinated? Come on, man.
653
00:37:03,555 --> 00:37:04,848
How did the Family begin?
654
00:37:05,140 --> 00:37:06,266
Did you start with the girls?
655
00:37:06,349 --> 00:37:07,851
These people you call the "Family,"
656
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:09,811
they're just children
that you didn't want.
657
00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:11,563
You threw 'em out like trash.
658
00:37:11,646 --> 00:37:14,274
So I picked them up
off the side of the road, and I said this:
659
00:37:14,774 --> 00:37:16,735
in love, there is no wrong.
660
00:37:16,818 --> 00:37:18,945
Love? That's what you taught your Family?
661
00:37:21,114 --> 00:37:22,866
You're a family man, Agent Tench?
662
00:37:24,826 --> 00:37:25,869
- Yeah.
- Yeah?
663
00:37:26,453 --> 00:37:29,414
Yeah, he's a family man, too,
with his keys and his gun.
664
00:37:29,831 --> 00:37:31,875
He's teaching his children right now.
665
00:37:31,958 --> 00:37:34,711
They're learning his beliefs,
and they'll be living 'em.
666
00:37:34,794 --> 00:37:37,505
And you, you're teaching your children.
667
00:37:37,964 --> 00:37:41,050
Look at yourself,
judge the lies you live in.
668
00:37:41,468 --> 00:37:43,344
These children
that come at you with knives,
669
00:37:43,428 --> 00:37:44,596
they're your children.
670
00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:47,015
They were your followers, Charlie.
You gave them the knife.
671
00:37:47,098 --> 00:37:49,392
You taught 'em!
[chuckling] I didn't teach 'em.
672
00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:51,186
I just tried to help 'em stand up.
673
00:37:51,269 --> 00:37:54,063
And they stood up, went out,
and killed seven innocent people.
674
00:37:54,147 --> 00:37:55,648
Oh, so now it's my fault?
675
00:37:56,024 --> 00:37:58,568
It's my fault
that your children do what they do?
676
00:37:59,319 --> 00:38:01,613
Your own children who you are neglecting?
677
00:38:01,696 --> 00:38:04,407
We know that no one in the Family acted
without your approval, Charlie.
678
00:38:04,491 --> 00:38:07,952
[chuckling] Well, if you know, you know.
You don't need to talk to me.
679
00:38:08,036 --> 00:38:10,205
It's yourself you need to talk to.
680
00:38:16,002 --> 00:38:18,046
- [lighter clicks]
- Let's talk about August 9th, 1969.
681
00:38:18,129 --> 00:38:19,672
[Manson] That is gone in the past.
682
00:38:19,756 --> 00:38:22,008
And when it is gone, it is gone, brother.
683
00:38:22,091 --> 00:38:25,553
[Holden] That summer, you told the Family,
"Now is the time for Helter Skelter."
684
00:38:25,637 --> 00:38:28,389
That they needed to start a race war
by murdering wealthy white people...
685
00:38:28,473 --> 00:38:30,975
That's the district attorney's fantasy.
That's his fears.
686
00:38:31,059 --> 00:38:33,061
That's a reflection of his fears.
687
00:38:33,144 --> 00:38:35,230
So you're saying that this never happened?
688
00:38:35,313 --> 00:38:37,023
[Manson] Sure,
I'm saying that never happened!
689
00:38:37,106 --> 00:38:39,484
Bugliosi is a genius, man!
690
00:38:39,567 --> 00:38:43,321
He got everything a prosecutor
would want, except one thing: a case.
691
00:38:43,947 --> 00:38:44,948
He doesn't have a case!
692
00:38:45,448 --> 00:38:47,867
So he puts Linda Kasabian on the stand,
693
00:38:47,951 --> 00:38:50,829
and she tells a sad story
about how she has lied,
694
00:38:50,912 --> 00:38:52,288
and cheated, and...
695
00:38:52,372 --> 00:38:55,250
and done every dishonest thing
that she can think of.
696
00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:58,294
Oh, but it's okay,
she's telling the truth now.
697
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,383
She wouldn't have any ulterior motive,
like immunity for seven counts of murder.
698
00:39:03,466 --> 00:39:05,844
You're saying she lied?
All the witnesses lied?
699
00:39:05,927 --> 00:39:09,472
Each witness got up and testified
only what was best for them.
700
00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:11,641
They didn't testify what was best for me.
701
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:15,562
Do you believe
this Helter Skelter bullshit?
702
00:39:15,645 --> 00:39:17,689
[Holden] "Death to Pigs."
"Political Piggy."
703
00:39:18,147 --> 00:39:21,150
- Got to admit, it sounds like a vision.
- There's no vision.
704
00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:24,028
I might have had an opinion
about blacks and whites
705
00:39:24,112 --> 00:39:25,780
and the hassles they were havin'.
706
00:39:25,864 --> 00:39:28,157
But I don't recall saying anything
about starting a race war.
707
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:29,993
So how did that become the story?
708
00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:33,580
It was Sadie who started hearing messages
in the White Album.
709
00:39:33,872 --> 00:39:38,042
She gave the media the material
for any perversion they cared print.
710
00:39:38,126 --> 00:39:39,419
The DA grabbed Sadie's version,
711
00:39:39,502 --> 00:39:41,588
ran all the way
through the courtroom with it:
712
00:39:41,671 --> 00:39:44,632
"Charles Manson:
the most dangerous man alive."
713
00:39:45,174 --> 00:39:48,511
"Hippie cult leader
who programmed people to kill."
714
00:39:48,595 --> 00:39:52,432
In that book, he's got me so powerful,
a look from me stopped his watch!
715
00:39:53,182 --> 00:39:54,726
I'd lay there in my cell wondering,
716
00:39:54,809 --> 00:39:56,811
"Wow, am I really all they say?"
717
00:39:57,186 --> 00:39:59,272
I was halfway believing that shit myself.
718
00:39:59,939 --> 00:40:02,233
But I've been staring
at every clock I see.
719
00:40:02,317 --> 00:40:03,568
And you know what?
720
00:40:03,651 --> 00:40:05,820
As hard as I stare, the clock never stops.
[chuckles]
721
00:40:05,904 --> 00:40:08,698
You had a group of teenagers isolated
in the desert.
722
00:40:08,781 --> 00:40:10,909
You gave 'em drugs,
you convinced 'em you were God,
723
00:40:10,992 --> 00:40:12,160
and you sent 'em out to kill.
724
00:40:12,243 --> 00:40:16,289
Listen man, Bobby Beausoleil was sitting
in jail for murder, you dig?
725
00:40:16,664 --> 00:40:18,249
Tex and Sadie came to me
726
00:40:18,333 --> 00:40:21,377
and said, "Let's do some copycat killings
to get him off."
727
00:40:21,669 --> 00:40:24,172
You're saying the murders, everything,
728
00:40:24,797 --> 00:40:26,591
was just to get Bobby Beausoleil
out of prison?
729
00:40:26,674 --> 00:40:30,511
Those kids were looking at me
with hard eyes.
730
00:40:31,179 --> 00:40:32,430
Yeah, your kids.
731
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:35,516
Tex Watson, the all-American boy?
732
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,101
The pride of Copeville, Texas?
733
00:40:37,185 --> 00:40:39,479
I have better sense
than to disagree with him.
734
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:41,564
So I said this:
735
00:40:41,648 --> 00:40:43,608
"You do what your love tells you to do.
736
00:40:43,691 --> 00:40:45,485
I'll do what my love tells me."
737
00:40:45,568 --> 00:40:48,655
Now whatever he did, that's up to him.
He'll have to explain it to you.
738
00:40:48,738 --> 00:40:49,948
Just to be clear,
739
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,534
this was their plan?
You weren't responsible...
740
00:40:53,618 --> 00:40:56,454
You got a circle
that a man lives inside of.
741
00:40:56,537 --> 00:41:00,249
He's responsible for his circle
and his circle only.
742
00:41:00,333 --> 00:41:02,502
Now, I don't recall saying anything about,
743
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:05,338
"Go get a knife and kill anyone"
or anything.
744
00:41:05,421 --> 00:41:06,339
Bullshit.
745
00:41:07,632 --> 00:41:10,551
If I wanted,
I could kill you with your mic cord.
746
00:41:10,927 --> 00:41:12,095
With your pencil.
747
00:41:12,804 --> 00:41:15,223
But I wanna love myself,
so I'm not going to do that.
748
00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:17,350
No, you're gonna put it
in someone else's circle.
749
00:41:18,935 --> 00:41:20,395
Listen, man. Tex?
750
00:41:20,478 --> 00:41:23,982
It was hard to tell if he was at the end
of an old high or startin' a new one.
751
00:41:24,065 --> 00:41:26,067
Now, I went back
to the Cielo Drive house that night,
752
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:28,695
and sent one of the kids inside
to see if he'd really done it.
753
00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:29,779
Why didn't you go inside?
754
00:41:30,738 --> 00:41:33,282
It was a crime scene.
I'd have been in violation of my parole.
755
00:41:34,951 --> 00:41:37,912
But you were at the LaBianca murders,
weren't you, Charlie?
756
00:41:37,996 --> 00:41:39,706
[Manson] I had to go. I had to go.
757
00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:42,834
- You had to?
- [Manson] Yeah. Listen, Tex,
758
00:41:42,917 --> 00:41:44,627
he put himself on me, man.
759
00:41:44,711 --> 00:41:46,212
He tried to make me look weak.
760
00:41:46,713 --> 00:41:49,048
We were moving forward inside ourselves.
761
00:41:49,132 --> 00:41:51,759
We were learnin' new things.
And he changed it.
762
00:41:51,843 --> 00:41:54,095
See, he went outside.
He made his own circle.
763
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:57,849
And, what, now he wants to go back
to "Jesus loves me"?
764
00:41:58,266 --> 00:41:59,350
Blood of the lamb,
765
00:41:59,434 --> 00:42:02,478
the right/wrong games we played
for 2,000 years?
766
00:42:02,562 --> 00:42:03,980
Right and wrong is a game?
767
00:42:04,063 --> 00:42:07,108
There are no rights and wrongs, only ises.
768
00:42:07,608 --> 00:42:09,110
Whatever life is, it is.
769
00:42:09,193 --> 00:42:11,154
Right and wrong got nothing to do with it.
770
00:42:11,237 --> 00:42:13,448
So the murder of seven people just "is"?
771
00:42:15,074 --> 00:42:18,411
Well, it is, isn't it? [chuckles]
772
00:42:19,287 --> 00:42:21,539
No one ever dies, no one ever lives.
773
00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:23,708
Those are two words in a leftover game.
774
00:42:23,791 --> 00:42:25,501
People did die, Charlie.
You made sure of it.
775
00:42:25,585 --> 00:42:27,003
Everything is love, man.
776
00:42:27,086 --> 00:42:28,588
There's nothing that isn't love.
777
00:42:28,671 --> 00:42:29,505
Really?
778
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:30,465
Nothin'?
779
00:42:31,257 --> 00:42:32,842
How much more of this shit
do you wanna listen to?
780
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:35,803
[Manson] You need to walk
on a different street, guy.
781
00:42:35,887 --> 00:42:38,347
Put your clothes on backwards,
and let everyone laugh at you.
782
00:42:38,431 --> 00:42:39,557
You're a coward, Charlie.
783
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,851
A coward who takes no responsibility
for his actions.
784
00:42:41,934 --> 00:42:44,353
Yeah, you eat meat with your teeth,
785
00:42:44,437 --> 00:42:46,439
you kill things that are better than you,
786
00:42:46,522 --> 00:42:48,274
and then you say
your children are killers.
787
00:42:48,357 --> 00:42:49,525
No, I'm saying you're a killer.
788
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:52,195
- [Manson] I have killed no one...
- You ordered them to go to that house
789
00:42:52,278 --> 00:42:54,739
- and slaughter everyone there.
- ...and I wanted no one to be killed.
790
00:42:56,199 --> 00:42:59,911
I did not direct anyone to do anything
other than what they wanted to do.
791
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:01,162
You didn't stop them either.
792
00:43:01,245 --> 00:43:04,582
I always let children go.
If he falls, that is how he learns.
793
00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:06,125
You become strong by fallin'.
794
00:43:06,209 --> 00:43:08,961
You're not supposed to let children fall.
You're supposed to guide them.
795
00:43:09,045 --> 00:43:10,797
[Manson] Guide them into what?
796
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,799
Guide them
into what you've guided them into?
797
00:43:12,882 --> 00:43:14,842
- You fucking midget!
- Bill!
798
00:43:16,594 --> 00:43:18,387
[chuckles]
799
00:43:20,056 --> 00:43:21,724
This anger that you're feeling,
Agent Tench,
800
00:43:21,808 --> 00:43:23,893
this is just the anger
that you have got for you.
801
00:43:24,477 --> 00:43:26,145
Find someone else to put yourself on.
802
00:43:26,229 --> 00:43:30,149
I'm tired of being your goat.
I'm tired of being your reflection.
803
00:43:30,233 --> 00:43:32,860
- You're not my reflection.
- [Manson] I've always been yours.
804
00:43:32,944 --> 00:43:35,196
I've been in your cell
since I was eight years old.
805
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:36,489
I don't even have a name.
806
00:43:36,572 --> 00:43:38,783
I'm B-33920.
807
00:43:38,866 --> 00:43:40,326
A bell rings, I get up!
808
00:43:40,993 --> 00:43:42,995
A bell rings, I go out!
809
00:43:43,079 --> 00:43:45,998
A bell rings, I do what that bell says.
810
00:43:46,082 --> 00:43:47,708
I'm Pavlov's dog, man.
811
00:43:47,792 --> 00:43:49,544
I'm anything you want me to be.
812
00:43:51,921 --> 00:43:54,006
But what you want is a fiend...
813
00:43:54,715 --> 00:43:56,300
because that's what you are.
814
00:43:56,884 --> 00:43:59,262
See, I never had any say in your world,
815
00:43:59,345 --> 00:44:00,721
you created it.
816
00:44:02,223 --> 00:44:04,600
How do you feel about those murders?
817
00:44:04,684 --> 00:44:05,852
That's what counts.
818
00:44:06,352 --> 00:44:09,105
Happened in your world, not in mine.
819
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,900
What "counts" is that you ordered
the deaths of seven people.
820
00:44:12,984 --> 00:44:15,236
Eight if you "count" an unborn baby.
821
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:17,613
[chuckles]
And now you can reflect it back on me,
822
00:44:17,697 --> 00:44:20,032
and you can lock me up
in your penitentiary,
823
00:44:20,116 --> 00:44:22,326
and you can say that your world's better.
824
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:24,954
But prison's a frame of thought.
825
00:44:25,663 --> 00:44:28,207
We're all our own prisons,
we are each our own wardens,
826
00:44:28,291 --> 00:44:29,792
we do our own time.
827
00:44:30,334 --> 00:44:32,086
Prison is in your mind.
828
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:34,380
[laughs] Can't you see I'm free?
829
00:44:34,463 --> 00:44:37,758
- You don't look so free to me, Charlie.
- You don't look free to me!
830
00:44:38,176 --> 00:44:41,429
You look like a composite
of what someone told you you are.
831
00:44:41,971 --> 00:44:45,391
You live for other peoples' opinion,
you got pain on your face,
832
00:44:45,474 --> 00:44:46,934
and you wonder if you look okay.
833
00:44:47,018 --> 00:44:48,477
- [Tench] That's it.
- Bill.
834
00:44:48,561 --> 00:44:50,188
[equipment clattering loudly]
835
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,481
Hey, man.
836
00:44:52,565 --> 00:44:54,317
I like your sunglasses.
837
00:44:55,026 --> 00:44:56,068
Can I have 'em?
838
00:45:06,287 --> 00:45:07,955
- Thank you kindly.
- [door lock clicks]
839
00:45:08,039 --> 00:45:12,668
The guru of Munchkinland can fuck off
straight to hell as far as I'm concerned.
840
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,003
[guard] Agent Ford!
841
00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:24,180
[sighs]
Manson said he lifted these from you.
842
00:45:24,764 --> 00:45:27,308
- He said he stole them?
- [guard] He was braggin' about it.
843
00:45:27,391 --> 00:45:28,559
He's on his way to the hole.
844
00:45:28,643 --> 00:45:30,645
[inmates clamoring]
845
00:45:33,314 --> 00:45:34,607
[Tench] It's such bullshit.
846
00:45:35,608 --> 00:45:36,901
What makes more sense?
847
00:45:37,652 --> 00:45:40,947
Manson being forced to go along
with Tex and Sadie's copycat crime,
848
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:43,199
or a race war predicted by the Beatles?
849
00:45:43,282 --> 00:45:44,575
You're saying the DA lied?
850
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:48,704
I'm saying he gave it a narrative.
851
00:45:49,872 --> 00:45:52,875
He had to explain
to a normal, middle-class jury
852
00:45:52,959 --> 00:45:56,462
how some normal, middle-class kids
brutally murdered seven people.
853
00:45:56,796 --> 00:45:57,630
Jesus, Holden.
854
00:46:00,258 --> 00:46:01,425
Watson's an hour away.
855
00:46:01,634 --> 00:46:03,261
Let's just spend the night
and talk to him.
856
00:46:03,344 --> 00:46:04,345
I have to get home.
857
00:46:06,222 --> 00:46:08,975
- You can't spend one more day?
- No, I can't.
858
00:46:09,392 --> 00:46:11,519
And after Atlanta, we can't fuck up again.
859
00:46:16,649 --> 00:46:19,986
If you stay and do this interview,
I need to know,
860
00:46:20,528 --> 00:46:21,362
can I trust you?
861
00:46:23,281 --> 00:46:24,115
Absolutely.
862
00:46:25,533 --> 00:46:28,619
Just go in, do the interview,
come home. Got it?
863
00:46:28,953 --> 00:46:29,829
I promise.
864
00:46:31,706 --> 00:46:32,623
Thanks, Bill.
865
00:46:33,165 --> 00:46:36,836
[sighs] Fuck. What time have you got?
866
00:46:38,296 --> 00:46:39,505
5:16.
867
00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:41,924
- [Tench sighs]
- Something wrong with your watch?
868
00:46:46,345 --> 00:46:47,471
[brakes screech]
869
00:46:48,180 --> 00:46:50,641
- [airplane engines roaring overhead]
- [car horn honks]
870
00:46:51,809 --> 00:46:54,562
[traffic whistle blowing]
871
00:46:57,648 --> 00:46:58,566
Excuse me!
872
00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:01,402
FBI.
Is there any way you could hold the plane?
873
00:47:01,485 --> 00:47:02,820
I'm sorry, sir. It's gone.
874
00:47:02,987 --> 00:47:05,156
[sighs] Is there a red-eye?
875
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,450
10:00 pm. Arrives in Washington at 6:30.
876
00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:10,328
Thanks.
877
00:47:11,329 --> 00:47:13,331
[woman speaking indistinctly over PA]
878
00:47:25,926 --> 00:47:27,928
[clock ticking]
879
00:47:30,139 --> 00:47:31,432
[sighs]
880
00:47:32,016 --> 00:47:33,934
- [sighs]
- [Nancy] I apologize.
881
00:47:34,018 --> 00:47:37,480
I can catch him up on things
if you... wanna start.
882
00:47:37,563 --> 00:47:40,107
The appointment is
for the benefit of both parents.
883
00:47:41,067 --> 00:47:42,026
[knocking on door]
884
00:47:43,778 --> 00:47:44,612
[Tench] I'm sorry.
885
00:47:47,615 --> 00:47:48,866
So sorry I'm late.
886
00:47:49,784 --> 00:47:50,993
Of course. It happens.
887
00:47:51,702 --> 00:47:55,456
I just, uh, would be careful being late
to appointments with Ms. Leland
888
00:47:55,539 --> 00:47:56,499
or the CA's office.
889
00:47:56,916 --> 00:47:59,543
What we're trying to do here is avoid
as many red flags as we can.
890
00:47:59,627 --> 00:48:00,461
Absolutely.
891
00:48:01,295 --> 00:48:02,296
I'm here to help you both,
892
00:48:02,922 --> 00:48:06,634
and Brian, of course,
get through this as easily as possible.
893
00:48:07,385 --> 00:48:08,219
Thank you.
894
00:48:08,302 --> 00:48:11,180
Now, the goal of our sessions
will be to glean Brian's understanding
895
00:48:11,263 --> 00:48:13,224
of the event, his intentions...
896
00:48:13,307 --> 00:48:15,810
He didn't mean
to do anything to that little boy.
897
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:17,853
He thought by making a cross...
898
00:48:17,937 --> 00:48:20,815
Mrs. Tench, I...
I'm going to need to hear that from Brian.
899
00:48:20,898 --> 00:48:22,608
[Nancy] Well,
I think I understand my child.
900
00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:24,819
[Moritz] Your knowledge
of Brian's behaviors
901
00:48:24,902 --> 00:48:26,028
is going to be essential.
902
00:48:26,112 --> 00:48:28,280
But we have to complete
the process methodically.
903
00:48:29,156 --> 00:48:30,157
We understand.
904
00:48:32,493 --> 00:48:34,495
Uh, let's start with homelife.
905
00:48:34,578 --> 00:48:37,998
I see, from Ms. Leland, that your work
with the bureau involves some travel.
906
00:48:38,082 --> 00:48:39,959
Your wife tells me
you teach "road school"?
907
00:48:40,042 --> 00:48:41,877
He's home most of the time now.
908
00:48:44,338 --> 00:48:46,215
Why exactly were you late, Mr. Tench?
909
00:48:46,632 --> 00:48:49,051
I work in Behavioral Sciences for the FBI.
910
00:48:50,428 --> 00:48:53,722
- I don't know what that means.
- My unit develops procedures
911
00:48:53,806 --> 00:48:55,015
for identifying criminals
912
00:48:55,099 --> 00:48:57,101
by their psychological fingerprint.
913
00:48:57,184 --> 00:48:58,477
And how do you do that?
914
00:48:59,645 --> 00:49:02,148
We conduct interviews
with convicted felons,
915
00:49:02,231 --> 00:49:03,983
try to codify their behavior,
916
00:49:04,275 --> 00:49:06,444
gain insight into their mental states.
917
00:49:06,527 --> 00:49:08,237
What types of criminals do you deal with?
918
00:49:08,696 --> 00:49:10,990
I study multiple murderers.
919
00:49:16,662 --> 00:49:17,872
[sighs]
920
00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:22,042
And were you interviewing
an actual murderer this morning?
921
00:49:23,043 --> 00:49:25,129
I was late because I was in California
922
00:49:25,421 --> 00:49:27,047
interviewing Charles Manson.
923
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,675
[chuckles softly] Manson?
924
00:49:30,718 --> 00:49:31,635
Yes, sir.
925
00:49:33,512 --> 00:49:35,973
Wait. You spoke directly
with Charles Manson?
926
00:49:37,183 --> 00:49:39,768
Wow. He is quite the character, isn't he?
927
00:49:40,186 --> 00:49:41,312
You ain't kiddin'.
928
00:49:41,395 --> 00:49:45,399
Yeah, I... I must admit, I'm very intrigued
by what that conversation was like.
929
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:47,443
Could you share any tidbits?
930
00:49:49,111 --> 00:49:50,070
Sure.
931
00:49:51,489 --> 00:49:52,698
[recorder clicking softly]
932
00:49:52,781 --> 00:49:54,074
[Watson] Now that I've been
in here a while,
933
00:49:54,158 --> 00:49:56,160
I understand Charlie a whole lot better.
934
00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:57,453
How so?
935
00:49:58,162 --> 00:49:59,330
[Watson] It's survival.
936
00:49:59,914 --> 00:50:04,043
Charlie's not a tough guy,
so he created a prophet persona.
937
00:50:04,126 --> 00:50:05,753
A false prophet, for sure.
938
00:50:06,378 --> 00:50:09,673
Nothing he ever said came true
except for the things we did.
939
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:14,386
But he could convince you of things
you never thought possible.
940
00:50:14,970 --> 00:50:18,682
We didn't know if he was Jesus
or the Devil, but...
941
00:50:19,433 --> 00:50:21,519
either was better
than facing the world alone.
942
00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:24,813
But you didn't grow up alone.
You said you had a loving family.
943
00:50:24,897 --> 00:50:28,317
You must have developed a moral compass
before you ever met Charlie.
944
00:50:29,318 --> 00:50:33,113
Let's just say Charlie had a way
of making you think things were your idea.
945
00:50:34,198 --> 00:50:37,910
He'd start small,
like, he'd gather us in a circle,
946
00:50:37,993 --> 00:50:40,204
and he'd put a chair in the middle,
947
00:50:40,287 --> 00:50:44,291
and he would tell us to imagine
there was a person in that chair
948
00:50:44,375 --> 00:50:46,168
and that we had to scare them to death.
949
00:50:47,086 --> 00:50:48,921
Staring at 'em. Screaming at 'em.
950
00:50:49,004 --> 00:50:50,130
An empty chair?
951
00:50:50,506 --> 00:50:53,342
But in our minds, they were sirens
of the apocalypse sittin' there.
952
00:50:53,801 --> 00:50:56,387
Charlie would talk about things
we might do to them.
953
00:50:57,304 --> 00:50:59,848
Like, break into their houses,
954
00:50:59,932 --> 00:51:02,851
tie them up, kill their families.
955
00:51:03,561 --> 00:51:06,939
Those ideas, they were only ours
because they were his first.
956
00:51:07,314 --> 00:51:10,568
Once we incorporated them,
he'd send us out creepy-crawling.
957
00:51:10,651 --> 00:51:13,696
- Sorry. What is creepy-crawling?
- [Watson] It's what Charlie called it,
958
00:51:13,779 --> 00:51:15,823
sneakin' into people's houses,
959
00:51:15,906 --> 00:51:17,658
movin' furniture around.
960
00:51:18,075 --> 00:51:21,787
He said it would help us face our fears,
go beyond them.
961
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:25,082
But Charlie was giving us so many drugs,
we didn't know what fear was.
962
00:51:25,165 --> 00:51:26,041
He gave them to you?
963
00:51:26,417 --> 00:51:30,004
Belladonna, Orange Sunshine, STP.
964
00:51:30,337 --> 00:51:32,590
By the time
Charlie said Helter Skelter was coming,
965
00:51:32,673 --> 00:51:36,051
- we were doin' really heavy stuff.
- Charlie talked about Helter Skelter?
966
00:51:36,135 --> 00:51:37,136
All the time.
967
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:40,389
He told us Helter Skelter was concocted
by the district attorney.
968
00:51:40,931 --> 00:51:44,226
From the moment I met him,
Charlie was talkin' about a race war.
969
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:47,605
We lived every day
thinking the world was about to end.
970
00:51:48,105 --> 00:51:49,523
There is freedom in that.
971
00:51:50,024 --> 00:51:52,568
If there's no tomorrow,
there's no consequences.
972
00:51:53,777 --> 00:51:56,447
Does it matter what you do
on your last day on earth?
973
00:51:57,072 --> 00:51:59,241
What crimes might you commit, Agent Ford?
974
00:51:59,325 --> 00:52:01,952
I'd like to think
I'd still know right from wrong.
975
00:52:02,036 --> 00:52:03,579
[Watson] By then, there was no wrong.
976
00:52:03,662 --> 00:52:05,748
I had no conscience.
That had been taken from me.
977
00:52:05,831 --> 00:52:06,749
By Charlie?
978
00:52:08,667 --> 00:52:10,711
Charlie said you
and Sadie came up with the murders
979
00:52:10,794 --> 00:52:13,339
as a way of getting Bobby Beausoleil
out of prison.
980
00:52:14,131 --> 00:52:16,842
You have to understand, we were all one.
981
00:52:16,925 --> 00:52:18,177
We were part of the all.
982
00:52:18,260 --> 00:52:20,095
We thought the same thoughts.
983
00:52:20,638 --> 00:52:21,472
Charlie kept saying
984
00:52:21,555 --> 00:52:23,849
that if blackie didn't start
Helter Skelter soon,
985
00:52:23,932 --> 00:52:25,476
then we'd have to show 'em how.
986
00:52:26,435 --> 00:52:28,729
He chose Cielo Drive
because he'd been there before.
987
00:52:28,812 --> 00:52:31,857
- [Holden] So that was his idea.
- They were all his ideas.
988
00:52:31,940 --> 00:52:33,317
But he didn't go with you.
989
00:52:33,901 --> 00:52:36,153
Charlie wasn't about
getting his hands dirty.
990
00:52:36,236 --> 00:52:37,446
He did go to the house.
991
00:52:37,529 --> 00:52:39,531
Only after it was all over.
992
00:52:42,326 --> 00:52:45,621
Did Charlie give you or the girls
any specific orders?
993
00:52:46,705 --> 00:52:47,956
He told me to kill everyone.
994
00:52:48,457 --> 00:52:51,210
He said, "Make it as gruesome as you can."
995
00:52:51,293 --> 00:52:52,753
Told me, "Kill 'em all."
996
00:52:53,545 --> 00:52:55,339
- [inmates clamoring]
- And you did.
997
00:52:55,798 --> 00:52:57,675
- [Watson] Yes, sir.
- [sneakers squeaking]
998
00:52:59,551 --> 00:53:01,553
[indistinct radio chatter]
999
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:06,266
I remember... [sighs] ...being in the car.
1000
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:07,685
[crickets chirping]
1001
00:53:07,768 --> 00:53:11,438
[Watson] I had so many drugs in my system,
my mind kept phasing in and out.
1002
00:53:12,189 --> 00:53:14,733
I was lyin' with my head in Sadie's lap.
1003
00:53:17,111 --> 00:53:20,572
She shook me
and told me to cut the phone lines.
1004
00:53:21,448 --> 00:53:24,785
Next thing I remember,
we were walkin' up the drive.
1005
00:53:25,369 --> 00:53:29,081
There were headlights,
and Sadie hollered, "Get him."
1006
00:53:30,082 --> 00:53:30,916
I looked down,
1007
00:53:31,417 --> 00:53:32,668
I had a gun in my hand,
1008
00:53:32,751 --> 00:53:34,002
so I stuck it in the window
1009
00:53:34,086 --> 00:53:35,295
- and I pulled the trigger.
- [loud bang]
1010
00:53:35,379 --> 00:53:37,673
There was no thought. No feeling at all.
1011
00:53:37,756 --> 00:53:39,633
Eighteen-year-old Steven Parent.
1012
00:53:40,426 --> 00:53:42,761
That was the first true sin of my life.
1013
00:53:44,012 --> 00:53:45,222
But I've repented of it.
1014
00:53:45,305 --> 00:53:48,350
God's grace has blessed my soul
with the peace of his forgiveness.
1015
00:53:48,434 --> 00:53:50,144
You said you felt nothing?
1016
00:53:50,811 --> 00:53:52,563
Because death didn't matter to us.
1017
00:53:52,855 --> 00:53:54,481
[church bells ringing]
1018
00:53:54,565 --> 00:53:55,566
Okay.
1019
00:53:57,317 --> 00:53:58,736
[takes a deep breath]
1020
00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:00,946
What happened in the house?
1021
00:54:03,282 --> 00:54:05,659
I remember following Sadie inside.
1022
00:54:07,661 --> 00:54:10,289
There was a man asleep on the couch,
1023
00:54:11,206 --> 00:54:12,332
it was quiet.
1024
00:54:14,418 --> 00:54:16,920
Then people started coming in
from other rooms.
1025
00:54:17,004 --> 00:54:19,173
- [indistinct chatter]
- A man was comin' at me, yellin'.
1026
00:54:19,256 --> 00:54:21,884
I... I had the gun, so I shot him.
1027
00:54:23,385 --> 00:54:25,387
Everything just busted open.
1028
00:54:25,471 --> 00:54:26,722
Women were screamin'.
1029
00:54:26,805 --> 00:54:29,516
We were stabbin' people, runnin' around.
1030
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,643
- [women screaming]
- There was blood everywhere.
1031
00:54:31,727 --> 00:54:33,228
Did you feel anything then?
1032
00:54:33,312 --> 00:54:35,230
Sadie had to kick me to get me going.
1033
00:54:35,314 --> 00:54:37,900
But you... got going.
1034
00:54:38,776 --> 00:54:41,737
You have to remember,
those people, they were just shapes.
1035
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:43,238
They had no faces.
1036
00:54:44,490 --> 00:54:46,366
Sadie was outside hollerin' for me.
1037
00:54:46,450 --> 00:54:48,744
She had this woman pinned on the lawn...
1038
00:54:48,827 --> 00:54:50,579
- [young woman yelling]
- ...so I stabbed her.
1039
00:54:50,662 --> 00:54:55,083
You stabbed Abigail Folger...
28 times.
1040
00:54:55,167 --> 00:54:56,877
- [distant laughter]
- Yeah.
1041
00:54:57,753 --> 00:55:00,130
She was... practically dead
when I got there.
1042
00:55:01,924 --> 00:55:04,718
Frykowski had 51 stab wounds.
1043
00:55:05,177 --> 00:55:08,514
I remember the knife
going up and down, like, um...
1044
00:55:08,597 --> 00:55:11,391
- [rhythmic pounding in distance]
- ...a hammer in an engine block
1045
00:55:11,475 --> 00:55:13,852
until my fist disappeared in the mess.
1046
00:55:13,936 --> 00:55:15,145
[metallic clanging]
1047
00:55:16,605 --> 00:55:17,439
And then?
1048
00:55:18,106 --> 00:55:20,651
- And then we went into the living room.
- [man laughs in distance]
1049
00:55:23,195 --> 00:55:24,488
Where Sharon Tate was.
1050
00:55:25,113 --> 00:55:26,323
[door opens]
1051
00:55:28,033 --> 00:55:29,243
Could you see she was pregnant?
1052
00:55:29,326 --> 00:55:30,786
- [guards speaking indistinctly]
- Oh, yeah.
1053
00:55:30,869 --> 00:55:32,454
If there are any problems,
I'm gonna talk to him about it.
1054
00:55:32,538 --> 00:55:35,833
- They're gonna try.
- [guards continue speaking indistinctly]
1055
00:55:40,838 --> 00:55:43,006
She begged us to take her with us,
1056
00:55:43,090 --> 00:55:45,884
let her have her baby and kill her after.
1057
00:55:45,968 --> 00:55:48,804
[woman sobbing and screaming
in distance]
1058
00:55:49,972 --> 00:55:53,559
- [woman and young man shouting]
- [dog barking]
1059
00:55:53,642 --> 00:55:55,519
- Tex?
- [church bells ringing]
1060
00:55:57,312 --> 00:55:59,982
It didn't seem crazy at the time,
the idea of takin' her.
1061
00:56:00,774 --> 00:56:02,526
But I kept hearing Charlie's voice,
1062
00:56:02,609 --> 00:56:03,694
"Kill 'em all."
1063
00:56:04,027 --> 00:56:06,822
He told me over and over again,
"Make sure everyone's dead."
1064
00:56:08,448 --> 00:56:09,366
So you made sure.
1065
00:56:09,449 --> 00:56:11,618
- [woman shrieking]
- I did what Charlie told me.
1066
00:56:12,995 --> 00:56:14,329
Except go to the other houses.
1067
00:56:15,205 --> 00:56:16,290
What other houses?
1068
00:56:16,665 --> 00:56:19,793
Charlie had given us a list,
but... [sighs] ...I was tired.
1069
00:56:20,377 --> 00:56:22,504
It's hard stabbin' people, Agent Ford.
1070
00:56:22,588 --> 00:56:25,799
Sometimes you hit bone.
My hands were aching.
1071
00:56:27,467 --> 00:56:29,303
So we went back to the ranch, and...
1072
00:56:30,095 --> 00:56:31,471
and I slept like a baby.
1073
00:56:33,473 --> 00:56:36,643
Tex, do you think
you would have ever killed anyone
1074
00:56:36,727 --> 00:56:38,145
if you hadn't met Charlie?
1075
00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:39,479
[Watson] I hope not.
1076
00:56:40,188 --> 00:56:42,149
I pray to God I wouldn't have, but...
1077
00:56:44,109 --> 00:56:46,111
I know, in my heart, I harbored anger.
1078
00:56:46,194 --> 00:56:48,572
I shot and I stabbed them.
1079
00:56:49,114 --> 00:56:52,492
I beat Frykowski's head with a pistol
until it broke in my hand.
1080
00:56:52,576 --> 00:56:54,202
But Charlie told you to do it.
1081
00:56:54,828 --> 00:56:56,580
Charlie never killed anyone.
1082
00:56:57,414 --> 00:56:59,499
He just removed our fear of doin' it.
1083
00:57:00,792 --> 00:57:02,920
So you're taking responsibility.
1084
00:57:03,837 --> 00:57:05,339
I killed those people.
1085
00:57:06,131 --> 00:57:07,132
All of them.
1086
00:57:07,716 --> 00:57:10,177
Those people are victims
of the Watson murders.
1087
00:57:10,844 --> 00:57:15,807
But the Bible tells us, all have sinned,
and all fall short of the glory of God.
1088
00:57:15,891 --> 00:57:18,226
He who confesses obtains mercy.
1089
00:57:18,727 --> 00:57:19,645
I was lost...
1090
00:57:19,728 --> 00:57:21,146
[on recording] ...until I gave myself
to the Lord.
1091
00:57:21,229 --> 00:57:24,942
But now, I've been redeemed
by the perfect blood of Christ.
1092
00:57:25,067 --> 00:57:25,901
[player clicks]
1093
00:57:25,984 --> 00:57:28,320
[Carr] First Manson and then Jesus.
1094
00:57:28,737 --> 00:57:31,198
He's just exchanged one belief system
for another.
1095
00:57:32,366 --> 00:57:34,326
See, the contradicting stories
don't concern me.
1096
00:57:34,409 --> 00:57:36,495
Neither is a completely reliable source.
1097
00:57:37,329 --> 00:57:39,498
And I'm not so sure
that Manson was a total loss.
1098
00:57:39,581 --> 00:57:42,459
- [exhales]
- He had influence over his young followers
1099
00:57:42,542 --> 00:57:44,294
much in the same way
that Corll had over Henley.
1100
00:57:44,795 --> 00:57:46,755
He used sex and drugs.
1101
00:57:46,838 --> 00:57:49,132
But he also had an overt philosophy.
1102
00:57:49,216 --> 00:57:50,342
If you can call it that.
1103
00:57:50,425 --> 00:57:52,552
What is Helter Skelter, really?
1104
00:57:53,387 --> 00:57:54,388
It's borrowed.
1105
00:57:54,471 --> 00:57:55,973
But how is it useful to him?
1106
00:57:56,682 --> 00:57:59,351
What if the point of Helter Skelter
wasn't a race war?
1107
00:57:59,434 --> 00:58:01,395
What if it was about control?
1108
00:58:01,812 --> 00:58:04,398
- Over the Family?
- A cause to forge solidarity.
1109
00:58:04,481 --> 00:58:07,818
What if Tex and Sadie did come up
with the idea of a copycat crime?
1110
00:58:08,443 --> 00:58:10,529
It's proactive, risky, revolutionary.
1111
00:58:11,113 --> 00:58:13,991
It may not have been what Manson intended,
but they called his bluff.
1112
00:58:14,074 --> 00:58:16,159
They were doing what he only talks about.
1113
00:58:16,576 --> 00:58:20,914
From Manson's perspective,
his authority would have been threatened.
1114
00:58:20,998 --> 00:58:22,332
He'd have no choice
but to go along with it.
1115
00:58:22,416 --> 00:58:23,417
[Holden] At the LaBianca house,
1116
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,294
Manson went in and tied up the victims
before sending the killers in.
1117
00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:28,880
He wanted to remind them
that this was his plan.
1118
00:58:28,964 --> 00:58:29,798
Not anyone else's.
1119
00:58:29,881 --> 00:58:33,218
He was doing whatever he could
to keep authority over his Family.
1120
00:58:33,635 --> 00:58:37,097
Control, or at least the appearance of it,
was worth any cost.
1121
00:58:37,597 --> 00:58:38,765
Even seven murders.
1122
00:58:39,057 --> 00:58:40,976
When we were leaving,
he did a weird thing.
1123
00:58:42,019 --> 00:58:44,438
He asked for my sunglasses,
so I gave them to him.
1124
00:58:44,521 --> 00:58:46,440
A guard chased me down
and said Manson bragged
1125
00:58:46,523 --> 00:58:48,400
to everyone he stole them from the FBI.
1126
00:58:48,734 --> 00:58:51,111
He was willing to go to the hole
just to look powerful.
1127
00:58:51,194 --> 00:58:53,822
On the one hand,
you have a bunch of drugged-out kids.
1128
00:58:53,905 --> 00:58:58,201
On the other,
a practiced, manipulative ex-con.
1129
00:58:59,327 --> 00:59:01,788
And you're arguing
that Manson was forced into it?
1130
00:59:02,205 --> 00:59:05,167
Tex gave a pretty detailed account
of succumbing to brainwashing.
1131
00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:06,626
[Holden] He didn't dismiss the idea
1132
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:08,503
that he would've killed
without meeting Manson.
1133
00:59:08,587 --> 00:59:09,796
Manson found the right people.
1134
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,673
Young, submissive, alone.
1135
00:59:11,757 --> 00:59:13,884
But primarily,
people with untapped potential.
1136
00:59:13,967 --> 00:59:16,303
People who saw themselves as outliers.
1137
00:59:16,386 --> 00:59:19,014
People who only had to have
their fear removed to do what they did.
1138
00:59:19,473 --> 00:59:21,141
He simply helped them be who they were.
1139
00:59:23,769 --> 00:59:25,771
[indistinct chatter]
1140
00:59:26,646 --> 00:59:27,606
[Tench] Hi.
1141
00:59:29,733 --> 00:59:32,527
- Escort me in? [chuckles softly]
- Nancy not coming?
1142
00:59:33,070 --> 00:59:35,489
Didn't want to drag her
to another office thing.
1143
00:59:35,781 --> 00:59:36,990
- You?
- Same.
1144
00:59:38,075 --> 00:59:39,451
- So, how painful do you think...
- [doorbell rings]
1145
00:59:39,534 --> 00:59:41,411
- ...this thing is gonna be?
- [clicks tongue]
1146
00:59:41,578 --> 00:59:44,331
From the look of the house,
at least the booze will be good.
1147
00:59:47,626 --> 00:59:48,585
Welcome.
1148
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:49,878
Come on in.
1149
00:59:49,961 --> 00:59:51,421
[lounge music playing over speakers]
1150
00:59:51,505 --> 00:59:52,881
Everyone's in the living room.
1151
00:59:52,964 --> 00:59:54,257
AD Wyman's already here.
1152
00:59:54,674 --> 00:59:58,136
I've been giving him a little warm-up.
Saving the best parts for you, of course.
1153
00:59:58,595 --> 01:00:01,556
Remember,
all they want is a good war story.
1154
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,308
- Got a few of those.
- [chuckles]
1155
01:00:03,975 --> 01:00:06,019
Bill, go ahead in. I'll be right there.
1156
01:00:08,396 --> 01:00:09,231
Thank you.
1157
01:00:09,314 --> 01:00:12,651
Shilling for the FBI probably is not
what you expected to be roped into.
1158
01:00:12,734 --> 01:00:14,402
Oh, it's fine. I did plenty of it at BU.
1159
01:00:14,486 --> 01:00:15,987
Well, I appreciate it.
1160
01:00:16,071 --> 01:00:18,073
And I do want you to have a good time.
1161
01:00:19,032 --> 01:00:21,785
Speaking of which, there's someone
I would love for you to meet. Warren.
1162
01:00:23,870 --> 01:00:25,413
This is Dr. Wendy Carr.
1163
01:00:25,789 --> 01:00:28,917
Oh. Um... It is a pleasure, Dr. Carr.
1164
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,836
[Gunn] Warren is our liaison
with the LEAA,
1165
01:00:30,919 --> 01:00:33,296
so basically,
he manages our purse strings.
1166
01:00:33,380 --> 01:00:36,508
The good news is, I'm already a fan,
so there's no need to sell me.
1167
01:00:36,591 --> 01:00:38,218
Whew. Well, that's a relief.
1168
01:00:38,552 --> 01:00:40,470
Let me have a drink sent over.
What will you have?
1169
01:00:40,554 --> 01:00:42,264
A glass of white wine, thank you.
1170
01:00:44,015 --> 01:00:45,892
So you actually read our reports?
1171
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:49,855
They are so much more interesting
than budget committee minutes.
1172
01:00:50,438 --> 01:00:51,481
That's a low standard.
1173
01:00:51,815 --> 01:00:54,109
Well, I really have read them, Doctor...
1174
01:00:54,901 --> 01:00:56,611
- May I call you Wendy?
- Of course.
1175
01:00:56,945 --> 01:00:57,946
I've read the transcripts.
1176
01:00:58,029 --> 01:01:00,365
I've read the analyses,
and they're fascinating.
1177
01:01:00,448 --> 01:01:01,700
And truly original.
1178
01:01:01,783 --> 01:01:04,786
We were asked to keep our "originality"
in the basement when we started.
1179
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:06,329
It must have been quite a shock,
1180
01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:09,166
coming from the world of scholarship
and daylight
1181
01:01:09,249 --> 01:01:11,042
into a bunker full of G-men.
1182
01:01:11,126 --> 01:01:12,794
I'm doing work
that I wouldn't be able to do
1183
01:01:12,878 --> 01:01:15,547
- anywhere else.
- You are hardly what I expected
1184
01:01:15,630 --> 01:01:19,259
from the "Dr. Carr Commentary
on Ed Kemper's Mutilation Fantasies."
1185
01:01:19,342 --> 01:01:21,303
Well, I'm afraid to ask what you expected.
1186
01:01:21,845 --> 01:01:24,723
Something not so form-fitted.
1187
01:01:26,057 --> 01:01:28,226
- A lot more tweed.
- Ah.
1188
01:01:31,271 --> 01:01:33,565
George, this is Special Agent Bill Tench.
1189
01:01:33,940 --> 01:01:36,234
- Founder of our Behavioral Science Unit.
- Ah.
1190
01:01:36,484 --> 01:01:39,196
I was telling George
I only know the boring admin side.
1191
01:01:39,279 --> 01:01:42,324
You are the guy who sits in the room
with the serial killers.
1192
01:01:42,407 --> 01:01:43,408
That's me, sir.
1193
01:01:43,491 --> 01:01:46,494
Amazing. Ted says no cuffs on these guys.
Is that right?
1194
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,497
Makes 'em feel like we really want to hear
their side of the story.
1195
01:01:49,664 --> 01:01:51,833
Bill has been able
to get things out of Speck,
1196
01:01:51,917 --> 01:01:55,629
Berkowitz, even Manson,
that they have never said to anybody else.
1197
01:01:56,046 --> 01:01:59,507
We went into Berkowitz thinking we were
just going to hear that same old demon,
1198
01:01:59,591 --> 01:02:00,508
barking dog story.
1199
01:02:01,051 --> 01:02:03,720
What could we possibly learn
from a guy that crazy?
1200
01:02:03,803 --> 01:02:06,348
But we got him to admit
that the whole demon thing
1201
01:02:06,431 --> 01:02:07,641
was totally made up.
1202
01:02:08,058 --> 01:02:09,935
- He said that?
- A complete crock.
1203
01:02:10,518 --> 01:02:13,188
And he said the shrinks ate it up faster
than anybody.
1204
01:02:13,271 --> 01:02:14,856
[group laughs]
1205
01:02:15,273 --> 01:02:18,610
But hiding in a basement
or hiding behind a typewriter,
1206
01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:19,986
you know, what else do you enjoy?
1207
01:02:20,070 --> 01:02:21,529
I don't consider
either of those things "hiding."
1208
01:02:22,155 --> 01:02:23,406
What I mean is,
1209
01:02:24,824 --> 01:02:26,952
you have a very compelling presence.
1210
01:02:27,369 --> 01:02:30,622
Spending all your time
in such solitary pursuits,
1211
01:02:30,705 --> 01:02:32,123
you may not even be aware of your...
1212
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:34,876
your effect on people.
1213
01:02:39,339 --> 01:02:40,257
What are we doing here?
1214
01:02:41,132 --> 01:02:43,885
- Well, every job has its politics.
- [Warren] What I mean is,
1215
01:02:44,302 --> 01:02:45,887
we could be somewhere else, together.
1216
01:02:46,846 --> 01:02:47,681
Oh.
1217
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:48,765
I'd like to be alone with you.
1218
01:02:48,848 --> 01:02:53,520
[gasps] Ah, Warren, no, thank you.
1219
01:02:53,603 --> 01:02:55,981
- We could be really enjoying ourselves.
- Holden!
1220
01:02:57,649 --> 01:03:00,193
This is Special Agent Holden Ford
1221
01:03:00,443 --> 01:03:02,070
who's also with Behavioral Science.
1222
01:03:02,153 --> 01:03:03,154
This is Warren...
1223
01:03:03,238 --> 01:03:05,323
Freeman. Justice liaison.
1224
01:03:05,699 --> 01:03:06,616
- Hi.
- Hi.
1225
01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:07,617
Were you looking for the bar?
1226
01:03:07,701 --> 01:03:09,869
'Cause I was thinking
about getting myself a refill,
1227
01:03:09,953 --> 01:03:12,122
but I'm just gonna stop off
at the ladies' room, first.
1228
01:03:12,205 --> 01:03:14,749
I'll get your drink,
and we can finish our conversation.
1229
01:03:17,711 --> 01:03:18,878
Oh. [clears throat]
1230
01:03:21,006 --> 01:03:21,881
It's this way.
1231
01:03:21,965 --> 01:03:23,341
- Thank you.
- Yeah.
1232
01:03:25,552 --> 01:03:29,472
The guard said he bragged
he'd stolen sunglasses from an FBI agent.
1233
01:03:29,556 --> 01:03:32,517
- [men laughing]
- [Tench] They threw him in solitary.
1234
01:03:33,018 --> 01:03:35,353
Rather than say they were a gift...
There he is!
1235
01:03:35,937 --> 01:03:37,856
...he preferred to do six weeks
in the hole
1236
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:41,151
- just to look like he was a badass.
- [group laughs]
1237
01:03:41,234 --> 01:03:43,361
Gentlemen, this is Special Agent Ford.
1238
01:03:43,445 --> 01:03:46,489
He's been key in developing many
of the techniques we now use in the field.
1239
01:03:46,573 --> 01:03:49,576
Bill's been regaling us.
You must have some amazing stories too.
1240
01:03:50,410 --> 01:03:52,704
I've had many of the same experiences
Bill's had.
1241
01:03:52,787 --> 01:03:54,956
I'll leave you in Agent Ford's hands.
1242
01:03:55,540 --> 01:03:57,125
Excuse me while I take a leak.
1243
01:03:57,208 --> 01:03:58,710
[men chuckle]
1244
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:07,427
What's important in the Manson story
1245
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:10,847
is that we're learning
what compulsions motivate behavior.
1246
01:04:11,890 --> 01:04:13,641
For him, it was the appearance of control.
1247
01:04:13,725 --> 01:04:16,936
His crimes can be boiled down
to that singular need.
1248
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,440
By correlating psychological fingerprints
to known behaviors,
1249
01:04:20,523 --> 01:04:24,319
we're building a primer
to understanding criminal action.
1250
01:04:24,694 --> 01:04:27,280
[indistinct chatter]
1251
01:04:31,326 --> 01:04:33,328
[crickets chirping]
1252
01:04:45,965 --> 01:04:48,385
[Tench]
How did you escape the dog and pony show?
1253
01:04:50,261 --> 01:04:52,639
You know,
it's cheating to hide with the wives.
1254
01:04:53,473 --> 01:04:55,642
Uh, Warren Freeman.
1255
01:04:55,725 --> 01:04:57,644
- [chuckles]
- [Carr] You know him?
1256
01:04:57,727 --> 01:04:58,603
Oh, yeah.
1257
01:04:59,437 --> 01:05:01,272
He's popular in the secretary pool
1258
01:05:01,356 --> 01:05:02,982
- and the wives' club.
- [chuckles]
1259
01:05:03,066 --> 01:05:04,150
How'd you get away?
1260
01:05:04,234 --> 01:05:06,403
I... I grabbed on
to the first passing body.
1261
01:05:06,861 --> 01:05:08,196
Happened to be Holden.
1262
01:05:08,279 --> 01:05:10,615
- [both chuckle]
- That bad, huh?
1263
01:05:10,698 --> 01:05:11,866
Oh, I should've known.
1264
01:05:13,243 --> 01:05:15,328
- How go the war stories?
- [grunts]
1265
01:05:16,830 --> 01:05:19,040
I never know
exactly what it is I'm selling.
1266
01:05:20,125 --> 01:05:21,251
It's not the work.
1267
01:05:22,085 --> 01:05:25,004
I'm really just selling
somebody else's ass up the ladder.
1268
01:05:25,922 --> 01:05:27,757
Still, it's a hell of a lot better than...
1269
01:05:28,216 --> 01:05:29,426
[sighs]
1270
01:05:30,677 --> 01:05:31,553
Sorry.
1271
01:05:32,887 --> 01:05:34,681
I got some things going on at home.
1272
01:05:36,057 --> 01:05:36,975
You okay?
1273
01:05:40,311 --> 01:05:41,354
[exhales]
1274
01:05:41,688 --> 01:05:45,608
Brian was playing with some older boys
and a toddler.
1275
01:05:46,651 --> 01:05:47,944
Things got out of hand...
1276
01:05:49,779 --> 01:05:52,699
and the older boys
ended up suffocating the toddler.
1277
01:05:53,366 --> 01:05:54,451
Oh, my God.
1278
01:05:55,410 --> 01:05:56,661
Brian saw it all.
1279
01:05:59,789 --> 01:06:01,541
He must've remembered the Bible story
1280
01:06:01,624 --> 01:06:06,754
because he convinced the other boys
to take the body and tie it to a cross.
1281
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:10,216
He's exempt from charges, thankfully.
1282
01:06:10,967 --> 01:06:12,427
But he... [swallows]
1283
01:06:13,386 --> 01:06:16,681
We have to go
through court-mandated protocols.
1284
01:06:16,764 --> 01:06:18,391
Is Brian talking to someone?
1285
01:06:18,475 --> 01:06:21,144
[Tench]
We've got a psychiatrist, a social worker,
1286
01:06:21,686 --> 01:06:23,229
benchmarks we have to meet.
1287
01:06:24,105 --> 01:06:25,064
How is Nancy?
1288
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,818
[Tench] She's not grasping
that Brian might need some kind of help.
1289
01:06:29,319 --> 01:06:30,195
On the other hand,
1290
01:06:30,278 --> 01:06:32,030
she won't leave him alone
for five minutes.
1291
01:06:32,113 --> 01:06:34,115
That's really why she's not here tonight.
1292
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:36,284
We haven't left the house
since it happened.
1293
01:06:36,784 --> 01:06:39,537
I mean, just give it time.
I mean, this is huge.
1294
01:06:40,997 --> 01:06:43,416
And really, Bill, anything that I can do.
1295
01:06:44,375 --> 01:06:46,127
I'm gonna ask for your discretion.
1296
01:06:49,130 --> 01:06:50,256
Holden doesn't know.
1297
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:54,719
I understand.
1298
01:06:56,387 --> 01:06:58,389
[takes a deep breath]
1299
01:06:59,265 --> 01:07:00,934
They look critically bored.
1300
01:07:01,309 --> 01:07:02,602
We should get back in there.
1301
01:07:03,811 --> 01:07:05,146
Perform life support.
1302
01:07:11,611 --> 01:07:13,613
[Carr] You know, Bill,
I think that I just might sneak out.
1303
01:07:13,696 --> 01:07:14,739
[Tench] I don't blame you.
1304
01:07:14,822 --> 01:07:17,492
- ["Cheek to Cheek" playing on speakers]
- [indistinct chatter]
1305
01:07:17,951 --> 01:07:18,785
Wendy.
1306
01:07:19,953 --> 01:07:21,829
I hope I didn't frighten you off.
1307
01:07:21,913 --> 01:07:24,666
I'd love for us to finish our talk,
maybe somewhere quieter.
1308
01:07:24,749 --> 01:07:26,918
Oh, thank you,
but I'm actually not feeling very well.
1309
01:07:27,001 --> 01:07:29,003
Oh, I'd love to drive you home.
1310
01:07:29,629 --> 01:07:31,631
- I insist.
- I'm perfectly fine to drive.
1311
01:07:31,714 --> 01:07:33,841
- [clears throat]
- Well, at least let me see you out.
1312
01:07:33,925 --> 01:07:36,844
No, Warren, I'm going to see myself out.
I insist.
1313
01:07:39,305 --> 01:07:41,933
♪ When we're out together ♪
1314
01:07:42,016 --> 01:07:45,061
♪ Dancin' cheek to cheek ♪
1315
01:07:45,144 --> 01:07:48,064
Wyman's invited you
to speak at the annual directors' retreat.
1316
01:07:48,439 --> 01:07:49,607
I accepted for you.
1317
01:07:51,818 --> 01:07:54,821
A spectacular country club: skeet, golf.
1318
01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:55,863
No wives.
1319
01:07:57,073 --> 01:07:58,992
And it's face time with the director.
1320
01:07:59,158 --> 01:08:00,785
That's what we were hoping for tonight,
sir?
1321
01:08:04,330 --> 01:08:06,207
Miss. Let's get this man a drink.
1322
01:08:06,291 --> 01:08:07,292
He's earned it.
1323
01:08:13,172 --> 01:08:15,174
Think you can get Holden
to loosen up a little?
1324
01:08:15,258 --> 01:08:17,719
- [laughs]
- [Holden] ...events in a suspect's life.
1325
01:08:17,802 --> 01:08:20,471
We've found a high incidence
of broken homes and neglected families...
1326
01:08:20,555 --> 01:08:22,599
Did my partner tell you
about Richard Speck?
1327
01:08:22,682 --> 01:08:23,683
No.
1328
01:08:23,766 --> 01:08:24,976
So Speck comes in,
1329
01:08:25,351 --> 01:08:29,105
and we see
he's got something in his hands.
1330
01:08:39,574 --> 01:08:40,491
[sighs]
1331
01:08:44,078 --> 01:08:47,415
[phone ringing]
1332
01:08:52,378 --> 01:08:53,838
- [Holden] Hello?
- [Barney] Hey, Holden.
1333
01:08:53,921 --> 01:08:54,964
News from Atlanta.
1334
01:08:55,214 --> 01:08:56,633
Jim. Tell me.
1335
01:08:56,716 --> 01:08:58,635
Another body, another strangulation.
1336
01:08:59,135 --> 01:09:00,136
How old?
1337
01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:01,054
Twelve.
1338
01:09:01,346 --> 01:09:02,472
Clifford Jones.
1339
01:09:02,847 --> 01:09:05,558
He was collecting cans for change
so his aunt could do laundry.
1340
01:09:05,642 --> 01:09:06,559
Broad daylight.
1341
01:09:07,226 --> 01:09:09,020
[sighs] He's number 13.
1342
01:09:11,356 --> 01:09:14,025
[Charles Manson's
"Cease to Exist" playing]
1343
01:09:16,861 --> 01:09:18,863
♪ Cease to exist ♪
1344
01:09:20,448 --> 01:09:24,369
♪ Just come and say you love me ♪
1345
01:09:28,956 --> 01:09:30,875
♪ Give up your world ♪
1346
01:09:33,044 --> 01:09:39,092
♪ Come on, you can be ♪
1347
01:09:39,175 --> 01:09:41,010
♪ I'm your kind ♪
1348
01:09:41,469 --> 01:09:46,974
♪ Oh, your kind, and I can see ♪
1349
01:09:47,058 --> 01:09:49,185
♪ You walk on, walk on ♪
1350
01:09:50,103 --> 01:09:52,146
♪ I love you, pretty girl ♪
1351
01:09:55,900 --> 01:09:58,236
♪ My life is yours ♪
1352
01:09:58,778 --> 01:10:01,197
♪ Ah, you can have my world ♪
1353
01:10:04,701 --> 01:10:06,536
♪ Never had a lesson ♪
1354
01:10:06,994 --> 01:10:08,454
♪ I ever learned ♪
1355
01:10:09,330 --> 01:10:11,040
♪ But I know ♪
1356
01:10:11,124 --> 01:10:12,792
♪ We all get our turn ♪
1357
01:10:12,875 --> 01:10:15,461
♪ And I love you ♪
1358
01:10:15,545 --> 01:10:19,632
♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
1359
01:10:19,757 --> 01:10:21,467
♪ Submission is a gift ♪
1360
01:10:21,843 --> 01:10:24,053
♪ Go on, give it to your brother ♪
1361
01:10:27,348 --> 01:10:29,559
♪ Love and understandin' ♪
1362
01:10:30,893 --> 01:10:32,311
♪ Is for one another ♪
1363
01:10:34,772 --> 01:10:36,482
♪ I'm your kind ♪
1364
01:10:36,733 --> 01:10:38,401
♪ I'm your kind ♪
1365
01:10:38,484 --> 01:10:42,113
♪ I'm your brother ♪
1366
01:10:42,196 --> 01:10:43,948
♪ I never had a lesson ♪
1367
01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:45,491
♪ I ever learned ♪
1368
01:10:46,325 --> 01:10:48,995
♪ But I know we all get our turn ♪
1369
01:10:49,078 --> 01:10:51,873
♪ And I love you ♪
1370
01:10:51,956 --> 01:10:55,835
- ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
- [woman vocalizing]
1371
01:10:55,918 --> 01:10:59,547
- [Manson] ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
- [woman] ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
1372
01:10:59,630 --> 01:11:04,510
- ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
- [woman vocalizing]