1 00:00:14,806 --> 00:00:17,142 [clock chiming] 2 00:00:33,367 --> 00:00:35,869 [car revving outside] 3 00:00:55,013 --> 00:00:57,599 [breath trembling] 4 00:01:02,437 --> 00:01:04,648 [turns faucet on, off] 5 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:39,099 [theme music playing] 6 00:03:13,068 --> 00:03:15,654 [upbeat music playing] 7 00:03:18,657 --> 00:03:21,868 - It's like meeting a movie star. - Could be as anti-climactic. 8 00:03:21,952 --> 00:03:25,205 - [Holden] "Crime of the Century." - Until Charles Whitman two weeks later. 9 00:03:25,288 --> 00:03:29,000 I remember staring at this wanted poster of him, trying to figure out... 10 00:03:29,334 --> 00:03:31,962 if I saw him on the street, would I know he was insane? 11 00:03:32,045 --> 00:03:34,756 - You clip all these? - Everything I could get my hands on. 12 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,301 Even went to my neighbors who subscribed to newspapers outside of Milwaukee. 13 00:03:38,385 --> 00:03:40,512 Holden and his first criminal crush. 14 00:03:40,595 --> 00:03:44,266 I was home for the summer from college. It really made an impact. 15 00:03:44,349 --> 00:03:46,727 Nancy didn't sleep for a week when it hit the front page. 16 00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:48,770 She'd just started nursing school. 17 00:03:48,854 --> 00:03:50,439 It still makes the news. 18 00:03:50,522 --> 00:03:52,441 We should've let that suffice as our interview. 19 00:03:52,524 --> 00:03:55,152 - Saved ourselves a trip out here. - He lied all through it. 20 00:03:55,235 --> 00:03:56,903 Why? You don't think he'll lie to us? 21 00:03:57,195 --> 00:03:59,156 Wonder how Bob Greene got him to talk. 22 00:03:59,239 --> 00:04:00,907 Probably by kissing his ass. 23 00:04:00,991 --> 00:04:04,119 He called him a romantic figure. He's as bad as you. 24 00:04:04,202 --> 00:04:07,164 You would really turn down the chance to meet Richard Speck? 25 00:04:08,081 --> 00:04:09,958 He's almost up there with Manson. 26 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:12,586 Well, maybe he'll give you an autograph. 27 00:04:16,089 --> 00:04:17,883 That would be inappropriate, right? 28 00:04:56,838 --> 00:04:57,839 [man] Sign in. 29 00:05:09,142 --> 00:05:10,310 All right. Go ahead. 30 00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:17,192 [bell rings] 31 00:05:27,869 --> 00:05:29,329 Deputy Warden Armstrong. 32 00:05:29,412 --> 00:05:31,331 Holden Ford. This is Bill Tench. 33 00:05:31,414 --> 00:05:33,434 - The headshrink guys? - [Tench] Behavioral Science Unit. 34 00:05:33,458 --> 00:05:34,918 Thanks for accommodating us. 35 00:05:35,877 --> 00:05:38,088 You're the ones who painted this place pink? 36 00:05:38,588 --> 00:05:42,092 The feds. You know, some psychology thing. 37 00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:45,220 The color pink was supposed to keep the animals calm. 38 00:05:45,303 --> 00:05:46,805 How'd that work? 39 00:05:46,888 --> 00:05:47,889 I don't know. 40 00:05:48,431 --> 00:05:50,934 They ate it off the bars before we could find out. 41 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:56,398 [indistinct chatter, shouting] 42 00:05:56,481 --> 00:05:58,942 - Is this the only way through? - This is the way. 43 00:05:59,276 --> 00:06:02,612 We prefer to come in quietly, make it look like a civil rights investigation. 44 00:06:02,696 --> 00:06:04,531 Look around, how am I supposed to hide you? 45 00:06:04,614 --> 00:06:07,576 We didn't want him to be seen as a snitch, suffer reprisals. 46 00:06:07,659 --> 00:06:10,912 As far as I'm concerned, he could suffer the burning flames of hell for eternity. 47 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:14,082 - Okay, but that's not what we agreed to. - God, take it easy. 48 00:06:14,165 --> 00:06:16,710 We pulled him to toss his cell. Do it twice a month. 49 00:06:16,793 --> 00:06:18,545 It'll look like business as usual. 50 00:06:19,713 --> 00:06:21,047 [man] Armstrong. 51 00:06:24,301 --> 00:06:27,554 [chuckles] From his groupies. 52 00:06:27,637 --> 00:06:29,877 How does a man who slaughtered eight women have groupies? 53 00:06:29,931 --> 00:06:33,643 Hundreds of them. Keeps the whole prison stocked in smut. 54 00:06:37,063 --> 00:06:38,315 Stay behind me. 55 00:06:39,149 --> 00:06:42,068 [man] You goddamn motherfucking shits! 56 00:06:42,152 --> 00:06:43,862 Get off of me! I'll fuck you up. 57 00:06:44,487 --> 00:06:47,574 I'll fuck you so hard, your asshole will come out your motherfucking mouth! 58 00:06:47,657 --> 00:06:50,577 - [man 2] Take it easy, Speck. - Get your fucking mitts off of my shit! 59 00:06:51,036 --> 00:06:51,953 Son of a bitch! 60 00:06:52,037 --> 00:06:56,333 Fuck your mama's hairy fucking asshole, you cock-sucking peckerwood! 61 00:06:56,416 --> 00:06:58,585 Shit-bag, motherfucking twat! 62 00:06:58,668 --> 00:07:02,422 I'm gonna shit in your goddamn fucking poontang, you fuck-ass... 63 00:07:03,298 --> 00:07:04,758 Get off me, you cracker! 64 00:07:05,592 --> 00:07:08,345 I ain't talking to the motherfucking FBI! 65 00:07:12,265 --> 00:07:14,142 I wouldn't say that too loudly, if I were you. 66 00:07:14,225 --> 00:07:16,311 Fuck you in your fucking mouth. 67 00:07:17,646 --> 00:07:20,941 We'd like to have a conversation, Richard. Or what do you go by? 68 00:07:21,024 --> 00:07:23,276 I'm not talking to no faggot feds. 69 00:07:23,818 --> 00:07:26,154 Relax. We only want background information. 70 00:07:26,237 --> 00:07:28,865 Stick your background up your fucking ass. 71 00:07:29,699 --> 00:07:32,285 You're here, and we're gonna ask you a few questions. 72 00:07:32,369 --> 00:07:33,620 We can make it brief, 73 00:07:33,703 --> 00:07:36,081 or you can scream your head off and take all day. 74 00:07:36,164 --> 00:07:37,666 You fucking turned my cell out. 75 00:07:37,749 --> 00:07:40,001 How'd you like it if I looked up your fucking cracks? 76 00:07:40,085 --> 00:07:43,880 I wouldn't like it at all. Going through your cell was not our idea. 77 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:47,801 Please. 78 00:07:48,385 --> 00:07:49,552 Have a seat. 79 00:08:10,949 --> 00:08:12,283 We're conducting interviews 80 00:08:12,367 --> 00:08:14,786 with people who've been convicted of violent crimes. 81 00:08:14,869 --> 00:08:18,748 We'll be asking about family history, antecedent behavior, and thought patterns 82 00:08:18,832 --> 00:08:21,835 - surrounding the crimes... - Fuck you, Hoover boys. 83 00:08:23,086 --> 00:08:26,589 Our goal is to publish a statistical analysis which will not include your name. 84 00:08:26,673 --> 00:08:28,967 - You better know my name. - [Holden] I beg your pardon? 85 00:08:29,050 --> 00:08:30,802 "Beg your pardon." Fuck you. 86 00:08:32,178 --> 00:08:33,263 We know your name. 87 00:08:35,056 --> 00:08:36,516 Everybody knows your name. 88 00:08:39,227 --> 00:08:40,687 Who else you talking to? 89 00:08:41,187 --> 00:08:44,357 [Holden] People who've been convicted of similar violent crimes. 90 00:08:44,441 --> 00:08:46,026 - I'm not like them. - No? 91 00:08:46,401 --> 00:08:48,236 Don't think you've committed violent crimes? 92 00:08:48,319 --> 00:08:49,320 I didn't say that. 93 00:08:49,404 --> 00:08:51,698 [Holden] How are you not like them? 94 00:08:51,781 --> 00:08:53,366 Them fuckers are crazy. 95 00:08:53,450 --> 00:08:54,951 [bird chirping] 96 00:08:55,827 --> 00:08:56,870 Is that a bird? 97 00:09:00,248 --> 00:09:01,374 Where'd you get it? 98 00:09:01,958 --> 00:09:03,626 [Speck] It had a broken wing. 99 00:09:04,586 --> 00:09:07,005 I fed it meatloaf through an eyedropper. 100 00:09:07,088 --> 00:09:08,173 Oh... 101 00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:10,300 Did you give it a name? 102 00:09:11,092 --> 00:09:12,677 They let you keep a pet here? 103 00:09:12,761 --> 00:09:14,721 As long as I suck their dicks. 104 00:09:17,891 --> 00:09:22,687 It won't surprise you, Richard, that we want to talk about July 14, 1966. 105 00:09:23,271 --> 00:09:25,899 You'd been drinking since the morning, is that correct? 106 00:09:27,484 --> 00:09:29,569 You'd gone a few times to the Maritime Union 107 00:09:29,652 --> 00:09:33,364 to see about getting a job, but nothing had panned out. 108 00:09:33,823 --> 00:09:35,784 Did this influence your state of mind? 109 00:09:39,204 --> 00:09:43,875 You drank at the Shipyard's Inn Tavern until after 10:00 p.m., 110 00:09:43,958 --> 00:09:48,338 when you walked over a mile to 2319 100th Street. 111 00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:52,008 Did anything about the nurse's apartment catch your eye? 112 00:09:54,552 --> 00:09:57,931 Was it your intention to commit robbery when you went to the door? 113 00:10:06,481 --> 00:10:08,274 May I see your... tattoo? 114 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:14,697 I read about it. I collected these pieces on you. 115 00:10:14,781 --> 00:10:16,533 The tattoo is kind of legendary. 116 00:10:17,075 --> 00:10:18,827 I always wondered what it looked like. 117 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,873 You're gonna have to roll up my sleeve. 118 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:26,960 Okay. 119 00:10:27,043 --> 00:10:29,838 Well, come here, then, little boy. 120 00:10:38,388 --> 00:10:41,349 You want to pet my bird, too? 121 00:10:42,058 --> 00:10:44,185 [Holden] Uh, no. Thanks. 122 00:10:51,818 --> 00:10:54,237 You went to the nurse's apartment, knocked on the door, 123 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,072 one of the young women answered it. 124 00:10:56,489 --> 00:10:59,159 You flashed a knife at her, pushed your way inside, 125 00:10:59,242 --> 00:11:00,827 realized there were several women home. 126 00:11:00,910 --> 00:11:03,621 Was it still your intention to rob them at this point? 127 00:11:06,207 --> 00:11:08,376 At what point did you decide to kill them? 128 00:11:13,256 --> 00:11:14,591 - I'm sorry. - What? 129 00:11:14,674 --> 00:11:15,967 I gotta ask. 130 00:11:18,511 --> 00:11:24,601 What gave you the right to take eight ripe cunts out of the world? 131 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:26,840 Some of them looked pretty good. 132 00:11:27,729 --> 00:11:30,064 You ever think you were depriving the rest of us? 133 00:11:31,941 --> 00:11:35,028 Eight hot pieces of ass. 134 00:11:36,738 --> 00:11:37,906 You think that's fair? 135 00:11:38,239 --> 00:11:41,034 [laughing] 136 00:11:42,452 --> 00:11:43,786 You're crazy. 137 00:11:44,746 --> 00:11:46,998 That's a fine line that separates you from me. 138 00:11:47,081 --> 00:11:49,709 How the hell did you even fuck eight women the same night? 139 00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:51,061 What do you eat for breakfast, gunpowder? 140 00:11:51,085 --> 00:11:52,921 - All right. - I didn't fuck all of them. 141 00:11:53,004 --> 00:11:55,214 That story got blowed all out of proportion. 142 00:11:55,798 --> 00:11:58,259 - I only fucked one of them. - The one on the couch? 143 00:11:58,343 --> 00:11:59,969 - That's right. - [Holden] Why her? 144 00:12:00,053 --> 00:12:02,031 - Could've fucked all of them. - [Holden] Why didn't you? 145 00:12:02,055 --> 00:12:03,139 They kept coming. 146 00:12:03,681 --> 00:12:04,974 One after the other. 147 00:12:05,058 --> 00:12:06,577 [Holden] What'd you do when they came home? 148 00:12:06,601 --> 00:12:10,063 I put one in the bedroom, one in the closet. 149 00:12:10,146 --> 00:12:11,481 You corralled them like ponies? 150 00:12:11,564 --> 00:12:13,942 - [Speck] That's right. Tied them up. - Why'd you kill them? 151 00:12:14,025 --> 00:12:16,361 Once I killed one, I had to kill all of them. 152 00:12:16,444 --> 00:12:17,755 [Holden] Why'd you kill the first? 153 00:12:17,779 --> 00:12:20,573 She was crying and all, she was fucking loud. 154 00:12:21,157 --> 00:12:24,619 You told Bob Greene she spit in your eye, said she'd pick you out of a lineup. 155 00:12:24,702 --> 00:12:26,955 That son of a bitch, I should've never talked to him. 156 00:12:27,038 --> 00:12:29,499 - [Holden] Why not? - He got the whole place all riled up. 157 00:12:30,416 --> 00:12:33,044 - I just wanted to kick back. - Do your heroin, drink your hootch? 158 00:12:33,127 --> 00:12:35,046 - That's right. - Where do you get that stuff? 159 00:12:35,129 --> 00:12:36,464 [Speck] Got my sources. 160 00:12:37,632 --> 00:12:39,717 - Made my own still. - You made a still? 161 00:12:39,801 --> 00:12:43,972 Hid it in a drawer in a guards' desk. Right under their fucking nose. 162 00:12:44,055 --> 00:12:45,974 They couldn't figure out what the stink was. 163 00:12:46,057 --> 00:12:48,643 Was that true about the first girl? She spit at you? 164 00:12:48,726 --> 00:12:52,272 - Because they all sounded pretty timid. - All right, she got after me. 165 00:12:52,647 --> 00:12:54,065 I told her to shut up. 166 00:12:54,148 --> 00:12:56,317 - Did she shut up? - [Speck] She did what I said. 167 00:12:56,401 --> 00:12:59,112 - Then why kill her? - 'Cause I wanted to. 168 00:12:59,195 --> 00:13:00,530 [Holden] How'd you do her? 169 00:13:00,947 --> 00:13:01,947 Choked her. 170 00:13:02,532 --> 00:13:04,200 Took forever. 171 00:13:04,283 --> 00:13:06,077 Is that why you stabbed the others? 172 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,829 - It was faster? - That's right. 173 00:13:08,538 --> 00:13:12,000 Originally, you told them you weren't gonna kill them, just rob them. 174 00:13:12,083 --> 00:13:13,334 I guess I fucking lied. 175 00:13:13,918 --> 00:13:16,170 - Maybe you got overwhelmed? - [scoffs] No. 176 00:13:16,254 --> 00:13:18,047 I just decided to kill them. 177 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:20,508 Except the one. 178 00:13:21,259 --> 00:13:22,552 She was a sneaky bitch. 179 00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:24,095 Hid under a bed. 180 00:13:25,304 --> 00:13:27,932 You know, I never did have much use for math. 181 00:13:28,016 --> 00:13:31,519 And all them girls, I lost count. 182 00:13:31,602 --> 00:13:33,730 And there was blood fucking everywhere. 183 00:13:33,813 --> 00:13:35,982 Yep, they all looked dead to me. 184 00:13:36,065 --> 00:13:37,316 [Holden] They'd done nothing, 185 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,321 except maybe start crying when they realized this was it. 186 00:13:44,699 --> 00:13:45,950 Ever wonder why you did it? 187 00:13:46,034 --> 00:13:47,243 No. 188 00:13:48,328 --> 00:13:51,331 - [Holden] Not even curious? - I don't think about it at all 189 00:13:51,414 --> 00:13:52,915 until peckers like you show up. 190 00:13:52,999 --> 00:13:54,917 What about when you tried to off yourself? 191 00:13:55,626 --> 00:13:57,104 Don't know what you're talking about. 192 00:13:57,128 --> 00:14:00,048 - [Holden] In that motel. - I didn't do that. 193 00:14:00,131 --> 00:14:02,131 - Well, you slashed your wrists. - [Speck] Fuck no! 194 00:14:02,175 --> 00:14:03,593 - That was a fight. - [Holden] What? 195 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:05,178 - How I got cut. - Who'd you fight? 196 00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:06,971 Some river coon trying to hustle. 197 00:14:07,055 --> 00:14:10,099 - Just happened to be on both wrists? - I killed that motherfucker. 198 00:14:10,183 --> 00:14:11,726 - You killed him, too? - Shit, yeah. 199 00:14:11,809 --> 00:14:15,271 - I didn't see that in the paper. - Because nobody gives a fuck about that. 200 00:14:16,314 --> 00:14:18,232 You lost a lot of blood. 201 00:14:18,733 --> 00:14:21,444 - Did it hurt? - I didn't feel fucking nothing. 202 00:14:22,403 --> 00:14:24,322 - Do you still feel nothing? - That's right. 203 00:14:24,405 --> 00:14:27,158 - [Holden] It feels good, feeling nothing. - Sure. 204 00:14:28,618 --> 00:14:31,079 [Holden] Are you sure, when you slashed your wrists, 205 00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:33,247 you didn't feel bad about those girls? 206 00:14:33,331 --> 00:14:34,916 I told you, I didn't do that. 207 00:14:34,999 --> 00:14:37,585 [Holden] Maybe you weren't feeling bad about the girls. 208 00:14:38,169 --> 00:14:40,421 Maybe you were feeling sorry for yourself. 209 00:14:40,505 --> 00:14:41,881 Fuck you, peckerhead! 210 00:14:43,841 --> 00:14:45,802 - You know why those cunts died? - [bird chirping] 211 00:14:49,472 --> 00:14:51,432 Because it just wasn't their fucking night. 212 00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:54,811 [exhales deeply] 213 00:14:55,603 --> 00:14:56,979 Well, that was fucked up. 214 00:14:59,732 --> 00:15:02,360 When he started talking about feeding it through an eyedropper, 215 00:15:02,443 --> 00:15:04,153 I actually felt sorry for the guy. 216 00:15:07,323 --> 00:15:09,575 We really should videotape these interviews. 217 00:15:10,034 --> 00:15:12,245 Audio is never gonna do it justice. 218 00:15:14,247 --> 00:15:16,999 A video archive of our most violent offenders. 219 00:15:17,083 --> 00:15:18,584 Imagine that for posterity. 220 00:15:21,379 --> 00:15:23,923 "It just wasn't their night." 221 00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:34,267 You might want to consider losing the tape. 222 00:15:34,350 --> 00:15:35,351 What? 223 00:15:35,435 --> 00:15:38,396 Or saying it got mangled. The recorder chewed it. 224 00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:40,022 Why would I do that? 225 00:15:41,149 --> 00:15:42,608 "Eight ripe cunts." 226 00:15:42,692 --> 00:15:45,236 - I was getting him talking. - That excuse is wearing thin. 227 00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:47,780 Bill, don't get caught up in semantics. 228 00:15:47,864 --> 00:15:51,242 I don't like the language, and I know at least one person who won't either. 229 00:15:51,325 --> 00:15:53,953 - Am I supposed to be cowed by Wendy? - I'm just saying... 230 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:55,955 You pushed back when she reamed us about Brudos. 231 00:15:56,038 --> 00:15:58,374 Because we got something worthwhile from him. 232 00:15:58,833 --> 00:16:00,376 I can do this stuff. 233 00:16:00,460 --> 00:16:03,129 I can choke down the bile, manufacture empathy, 234 00:16:03,212 --> 00:16:05,089 when our subjects are at least informative. 235 00:16:05,173 --> 00:16:07,860 - You couldn't choke it down with Brudos... - Shut up, let me finish. 236 00:16:07,884 --> 00:16:10,386 But someone like Speck isn't worth our time. 237 00:16:10,803 --> 00:16:13,973 The fact that his death sentence was commuted is a national disgrace. 238 00:16:14,056 --> 00:16:16,017 We decided no one was beneath our contempt. 239 00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:17,494 That snail didn't change your mind? 240 00:16:17,518 --> 00:16:19,645 - We can learn from snails. - What did we learn? 241 00:16:19,729 --> 00:16:24,025 That some subjects have no idea what's behind the horrific acts they commit. 242 00:16:24,108 --> 00:16:26,527 It was disgusting. I don't want to be part of it. 243 00:16:26,611 --> 00:16:29,071 - When did you get thin-skinned? - I'm trying to warn you, 244 00:16:29,155 --> 00:16:31,491 your attitude is gonna bite you in the ass. 245 00:16:32,909 --> 00:16:37,830 There is no dishonor in losing at least the first three minutes of that tape. 246 00:16:37,914 --> 00:16:40,917 Ladies and gentlemen, we will be arriving at Dulles momentarily. 247 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,252 Please make sure your seat belts are fastened. 248 00:16:43,336 --> 00:16:46,256 Tray tables and seat backs should be in their upright and locked position. 249 00:17:26,504 --> 00:17:28,798 [typewriter clacking] 250 00:17:55,533 --> 00:17:56,867 [Holden] You know, Gregg... 251 00:17:58,744 --> 00:18:02,206 there are some things in this interview that were important to, uh... 252 00:18:03,332 --> 00:18:06,836 But maybe best kept off the permanent record. 253 00:18:37,491 --> 00:18:39,368 He admits to raping only one of the women. 254 00:18:39,452 --> 00:18:41,388 - We already knew that. - Why does he bring it up? 255 00:18:41,412 --> 00:18:42,705 He wasn't initially forthcoming. 256 00:18:42,788 --> 00:18:46,459 I believe I asked him how he managed to have sex with all those nurses. 257 00:18:47,627 --> 00:18:49,795 Wait, you caught him off guard, he told the truth? 258 00:18:49,879 --> 00:18:52,632 - I guess so. - This rape was committed reflexively. 259 00:18:52,715 --> 00:18:55,593 The crime scene photos indicate that she was facedown on the couch, 260 00:18:55,676 --> 00:18:57,345 so she was already depersonalized to him. 261 00:18:57,428 --> 00:19:00,097 It was probably just a "what the fuck" fuck. 262 00:19:01,474 --> 00:19:05,728 So he goes to the boardinghouse drunk, looking for someone to rob. 263 00:19:05,811 --> 00:19:08,439 And then he finds himself in this situation with all these women. 264 00:19:08,522 --> 00:19:11,067 He corrals them and then he rapes one of them. 265 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:14,362 - To prove he can? - Statement of sexual competence. 266 00:19:14,445 --> 00:19:16,197 Which he later exaggerates in the interview, 267 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,960 - claiming he could have raped them all. - [Holden] He was bragging. 268 00:19:18,991 --> 00:19:21,035 He turned his suicide attempt into a bar fight. 269 00:19:21,118 --> 00:19:22,662 Yeah, projecting machismo. 270 00:19:22,745 --> 00:19:24,185 - "Born to Raise Hell." - [Carr] Yes. 271 00:19:24,246 --> 00:19:27,625 It would be interesting to know how old he was when he got that tattoo. 272 00:19:27,708 --> 00:19:31,170 Because that was the conscious decision for him to brand himself a badass. 273 00:19:31,253 --> 00:19:34,465 We didn't get much history. The bird in the fan kind of ended things. 274 00:19:34,548 --> 00:19:36,509 [Carr] That moment? Vintage Speck. 275 00:19:36,592 --> 00:19:39,679 You had just accused him of cowardice by attempting suicide. 276 00:19:39,762 --> 00:19:41,847 And nobody born to raise hell is a coward. 277 00:19:41,931 --> 00:19:43,557 The bird was just further demonstration. 278 00:19:43,641 --> 00:19:46,495 I like the part where he doesn't want to be lumped in with other subjects 279 00:19:46,519 --> 00:19:49,730 - because they're crazy. - [Carr] Again, projection of self-image. 280 00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:52,400 Speck is powerful, superior, exceptional. 281 00:19:52,483 --> 00:19:55,403 But did we learn anything new? Anything that wasn't in our files? 282 00:19:55,486 --> 00:19:57,571 [Carr] He had no idea what he was going to do. 283 00:19:57,655 --> 00:20:00,700 Every single act he committed was... spontaneous. 284 00:20:00,783 --> 00:20:02,159 [Tench] We knew that. 285 00:20:02,243 --> 00:20:03,327 Speck was so out of it, 286 00:20:03,411 --> 00:20:06,497 the woman who answered the door was the only one he forgot to kill. 287 00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:09,667 Yeah, but to hear him say it, that's extremely valuable. 288 00:20:10,334 --> 00:20:13,379 We need terminology to distinguish a Kemper from a Speck. 289 00:20:13,462 --> 00:20:16,924 One drives around with ropes, knives, plastic bags in his trunk 290 00:20:17,007 --> 00:20:20,803 and returns to a specific hunting ground looking for specific prey, 291 00:20:20,886 --> 00:20:22,888 while the other just happens upon his victims. 292 00:20:22,972 --> 00:20:24,390 Organized and disorganized? 293 00:20:24,473 --> 00:20:27,059 [Carr] No. Those terms describe procedure. I'm looking... 294 00:20:27,852 --> 00:20:29,937 For example, Charles Whitman is similar to Speck. 295 00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:32,189 He killed 14 people in 90 minutes. 296 00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:35,818 - He's not a sequence killer, he's... - Whitman was on a spree. 297 00:20:35,901 --> 00:20:37,295 [Carr] His victims weren't selected. 298 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:39,321 - Just wasn't their night. - Bill? 299 00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:43,117 Spree is good for Speck or Whitman. 300 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,828 But I think sequence killer is wrong for someone like Kemper. 301 00:20:45,911 --> 00:20:48,205 - It feels too cadenced. - Perhaps. 302 00:20:48,289 --> 00:20:52,460 It should feel like a long story. Continually updated. 303 00:20:52,543 --> 00:20:53,753 A series of killings. 304 00:20:53,836 --> 00:20:55,713 - Serial? - Serial murderer? 305 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:56,839 Serial killer? 306 00:20:58,174 --> 00:21:00,426 That's better. Let's see if it sticks. 307 00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:05,097 - Six more years? - At least. 308 00:21:05,181 --> 00:21:06,849 Another year to complete my Masters, 309 00:21:06,932 --> 00:21:09,560 a year of exams to get a doctoral candidacy, 310 00:21:09,643 --> 00:21:13,981 and the dissertation takes two if you're extremely motivated, usually four. 311 00:21:14,064 --> 00:21:17,151 - You drink out of these? - Just the one that's drying. 312 00:21:17,234 --> 00:21:18,819 Store them upside down. 313 00:21:18,903 --> 00:21:20,613 [blows] 314 00:21:21,322 --> 00:21:24,700 - Anyway, I'll be 30 before I get my PhD. - That's still impressive. 315 00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:28,078 Is that why I'm doing this? Who am I trying to impress? 316 00:21:28,162 --> 00:21:30,082 - I thought you loved this stuff. - "This stuff"? 317 00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:34,126 Yeah, the sociological constructs that you're always espousing. 318 00:21:34,543 --> 00:21:37,797 - The Goffman and the Higel... - Hegal. 319 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,256 - Hegal. - I knew it. 320 00:21:39,340 --> 00:21:41,467 In one ear, out the other, little Debbie's stuff. 321 00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:43,469 I'm talking generally, not trying to minimize... 322 00:21:43,552 --> 00:21:46,388 You perk up when I talk about something that has to do with your work, 323 00:21:46,472 --> 00:21:49,683 - but the rest of the time... - I don't think you can put this on me. 324 00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:52,561 You've made it clear I'm not to get between you and your... 325 00:21:52,645 --> 00:21:54,814 "Stuff." Maybe that's all this is. 326 00:21:54,897 --> 00:21:57,858 Maybe that's why I'm wondering if I want to spend the rest of my life... 327 00:21:57,942 --> 00:21:58,984 Just now doing the math? 328 00:21:59,068 --> 00:22:02,571 Not all of us land feet first in our ideal vocation, Mr. Ford. 329 00:22:02,655 --> 00:22:05,282 - You think that's me? - You've found this microscopic niche 330 00:22:05,366 --> 00:22:07,785 interviewing freaks, and you couldn't be better... 331 00:22:07,868 --> 00:22:09,745 [phone rings] 332 00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:20,130 - Hello? - Mr. Ford, I have a Mrs. Wade to see you. 333 00:22:20,214 --> 00:22:21,924 - Who? - Uh, she says... 334 00:22:22,508 --> 00:22:23,926 What is this regarding, ma'am? 335 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:28,556 - She's the wife of someone you had fired. - Oh. 336 00:22:28,639 --> 00:22:31,308 She says to remind you of someone named Roger. 337 00:22:31,392 --> 00:22:32,226 Okay. 338 00:22:32,309 --> 00:22:34,186 If you'd like, I can call somebody. 339 00:22:35,104 --> 00:22:36,355 Send her up. 340 00:22:40,568 --> 00:22:41,569 What? 341 00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:45,154 [sighs] 342 00:22:45,948 --> 00:22:46,948 What is it? 343 00:22:54,582 --> 00:22:56,250 [elevator dings] 344 00:23:02,548 --> 00:23:03,841 Mr. Ford? 345 00:23:03,924 --> 00:23:05,050 Mrs. Wade. 346 00:23:05,634 --> 00:23:06,885 That's right. 347 00:23:06,969 --> 00:23:08,679 How did you find me? 348 00:23:08,762 --> 00:23:10,014 It took a while. 349 00:23:11,932 --> 00:23:14,476 You might not want to follow a federal agent. 350 00:23:15,644 --> 00:23:17,146 There could be consequences. 351 00:23:17,688 --> 00:23:19,023 You're just a kid. 352 00:23:20,107 --> 00:23:23,611 - What do you want? - So young to be ruining people's lives. 353 00:23:23,694 --> 00:23:25,094 - Mrs. Wade. - I'm sure you're aware 354 00:23:25,154 --> 00:23:27,573 that Roger was let go by the school district. 355 00:23:29,408 --> 00:23:30,784 I was not aware. 356 00:23:30,868 --> 00:23:33,621 Which means he can never again work in Prince William County. 357 00:23:34,872 --> 00:23:37,333 We've been in our home for 23 years. 358 00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:41,170 We have a daughter who's still in high school, so moving is impossible. 359 00:23:45,174 --> 00:23:48,969 [Mrs. Wade] He's been looking for work all over Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, 360 00:23:49,053 --> 00:23:51,513 as a guidance counselor, 361 00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:54,308 a substitute teacher. 362 00:23:55,309 --> 00:23:59,647 But no one wants him near children. And children are his life. 363 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:01,690 I am very sorry to hear that, 364 00:24:01,774 --> 00:24:03,776 but I had nothing to do with your husband... 365 00:24:03,859 --> 00:24:06,904 I understand you told the superintendent he could be a pedophile. 366 00:24:06,987 --> 00:24:08,155 You've been misinformed. 367 00:24:08,238 --> 00:24:12,076 So... you're saying that you didn't talk to anyone? 368 00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:16,997 - This was started by teachers. - You mean Janet Ebner? [scoffs] 369 00:24:17,081 --> 00:24:20,376 Roger was going against the wishes of faculty and parents. 370 00:24:20,459 --> 00:24:23,629 - He'd been given every opportunity to... - He did nothing wrong! 371 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,840 [elevator buzzes] 372 00:24:28,717 --> 00:24:30,302 I don't know what to tell you. 373 00:24:31,929 --> 00:24:33,639 I almost don't know him anymore. 374 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:37,893 [scoffs] I've never seen him so morose. 375 00:24:38,477 --> 00:24:40,813 He doesn't sleep. I wake up in the middle of the night, 376 00:24:40,896 --> 00:24:44,024 he's in the living room, staring at snow on the television. 377 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,486 He's almost 50 years old. 378 00:24:48,112 --> 00:24:51,657 We have three children, two of them are studying to be teachers. 379 00:24:52,533 --> 00:24:54,493 We were respected in the community. 380 00:24:58,414 --> 00:25:00,207 Suddenly, people who've known us for years 381 00:25:00,290 --> 00:25:02,543 pretend they don't see him on the street. 382 00:25:02,626 --> 00:25:07,256 Someone spray-painted "kiddie fucker" on our driveway. 383 00:25:10,008 --> 00:25:11,385 Would you like to come in? 384 00:25:14,555 --> 00:25:16,181 You're very young as well. 385 00:25:17,474 --> 00:25:20,060 Do you know what kind of person you're married to? 386 00:25:20,561 --> 00:25:22,229 We're not married. 387 00:25:23,814 --> 00:25:25,107 Then there's still time. 388 00:25:31,947 --> 00:25:33,031 What did you do? 389 00:25:33,115 --> 00:25:34,116 Nothing. 390 00:26:44,478 --> 00:26:47,064 - What am I looking at? - Came in from the Atlanta field office. 391 00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:51,193 Twelve-year-old girl raped and murdered after she got off the school bus. 392 00:26:53,987 --> 00:26:54,822 [Tench] Atlanta? 393 00:26:54,905 --> 00:26:57,324 [Gregg] Adairsville, 60 miles northwest of Atlanta. 394 00:27:00,828 --> 00:27:03,622 Contact the case lead, see if he'll send us more info. 395 00:27:06,708 --> 00:27:10,462 Lisa Dawn Porter disappeared after being dropped off at the driveway to her house. 396 00:27:10,546 --> 00:27:13,340 Her body was found in a wooded area, ten miles away. 397 00:27:13,423 --> 00:27:16,134 Cause of death was determined to be blunt force trauma to the head, 398 00:27:16,218 --> 00:27:17,511 probably from this rock. 399 00:27:17,594 --> 00:27:19,805 Marks indicate manual strangulation from behind. 400 00:27:19,888 --> 00:27:21,849 - She was a cheerleader? - Majorette. 401 00:27:23,433 --> 00:27:25,352 They march with the school band, twirl batons. 402 00:27:25,435 --> 00:27:28,146 What else do we know about her? Habits? Personality? 403 00:27:28,730 --> 00:27:30,357 By all reports, she was a good girl. 404 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,777 No drugs, no alcohol, no boyfriends anyone knows of. 405 00:27:33,861 --> 00:27:37,447 Autopsy indicates that she was a virgin before all this. 406 00:27:37,531 --> 00:27:40,093 - Low-risk victim, low-risk setting. - Her clothes were disheveled, 407 00:27:40,117 --> 00:27:42,202 there was no debris on them, no dirt, no leaves. 408 00:27:42,286 --> 00:27:45,414 They think she was raped in a vehicle, but killed in the woods. 409 00:27:45,497 --> 00:27:47,708 - Disheveled how? - The buttons were misaligned. 410 00:27:47,791 --> 00:27:49,960 So she undressed, probably when the unsub raped her, 411 00:27:50,043 --> 00:27:52,212 and then she got dressed again in a hurry. 412 00:27:52,588 --> 00:27:54,882 He either allowed her to do it or he encouraged it. 413 00:27:54,965 --> 00:27:55,965 Mm-hmm. 414 00:27:57,009 --> 00:27:58,510 He put the coat over her face? 415 00:27:58,594 --> 00:28:00,637 [Gregg] That's how she was found. It was yellow. 416 00:28:00,721 --> 00:28:02,764 A young couple noticed it walking through the woods. 417 00:28:02,848 --> 00:28:04,182 What do you think that means? 418 00:28:06,602 --> 00:28:11,273 If he places it over her head, it's like he's covering up what he's done. 419 00:28:12,566 --> 00:28:13,806 - He's ashamed? - [Holden] Okay. 420 00:28:13,859 --> 00:28:15,861 That's consistent with her getting dressed. 421 00:28:15,944 --> 00:28:17,112 He's concerned for her. 422 00:28:17,195 --> 00:28:19,239 In that way that child rapists can be concerned. 423 00:28:20,032 --> 00:28:22,492 Let's say there's shame. What does that tell us about him? 424 00:28:23,535 --> 00:28:26,079 - This might be his first murder? - [Holden] Good. 425 00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:28,165 - He's young? - How young? 426 00:28:28,790 --> 00:28:31,501 Maybe another teenager? Someone that knew her? 427 00:28:31,585 --> 00:28:35,797 Strangulation. Even 12-year-olds rarely comply, takes real strength. 428 00:28:37,299 --> 00:28:39,218 - Mid to late 20s? - That's where I'd put him. 429 00:28:39,301 --> 00:28:42,721 He intercepted her between the bus stop and her home only a short distance away. 430 00:28:42,804 --> 00:28:45,182 It's possible he knew when she was coming home from school. 431 00:28:45,265 --> 00:28:48,810 The woods where she was found is a known make-out spot for locals, so... 432 00:28:50,312 --> 00:28:52,147 - he's likely from the area. - [Tench] Good. 433 00:28:53,023 --> 00:28:54,743 - They knew each other? - Can't assume that. 434 00:28:54,816 --> 00:28:56,628 He could have threatened her at gun or knifepoint. 435 00:28:56,652 --> 00:28:58,171 - Absolutely. - [Holden] If he knew her schedule, 436 00:28:58,195 --> 00:29:01,490 then he probably planned the kidnapping, which means he likely planned the rape. 437 00:29:01,573 --> 00:29:02,653 But did he plan the murder? 438 00:29:04,243 --> 00:29:05,869 What does the crime scene tell us? 439 00:29:07,913 --> 00:29:10,749 [Gregg] He left the body in full view at the scene of the murder. 440 00:29:11,083 --> 00:29:13,519 - He left the murder weapon by the body. - And the yellow jacket? 441 00:29:13,543 --> 00:29:15,587 - Um... - It's the opposite of hiding her. 442 00:29:17,339 --> 00:29:20,092 All of this indicates a disorganized, spontaneous act. 443 00:29:23,220 --> 00:29:25,180 He planned the rape, he didn't plan the murder. 444 00:29:25,264 --> 00:29:27,182 - He might even feel bad about it. - Nice. 445 00:29:28,350 --> 00:29:32,521 Thanks. So I should get back to them and tell them what we're thinking. 446 00:29:32,604 --> 00:29:34,314 Are they expecting to hear back? 447 00:29:34,648 --> 00:29:36,525 Yeah. This isn't just an exercise, is it? 448 00:29:40,237 --> 00:29:43,073 [insects chirping] 449 00:29:47,452 --> 00:29:49,538 [man] School bus dropped her off right there. 450 00:29:50,831 --> 00:29:54,293 Eighty yards to the driveway, a hundred yards to the house? 451 00:29:54,376 --> 00:29:56,295 [Holden] Did she even make it to the driveway? 452 00:29:56,712 --> 00:29:58,380 [man] Well, her mother was home. 453 00:29:59,006 --> 00:30:00,924 She didn't see anything, hear anything. 454 00:30:01,008 --> 00:30:02,718 So he probably picked her up on the road. 455 00:30:02,801 --> 00:30:05,929 We think someone was waiting for her, knew when the bus would drop her off. 456 00:30:06,013 --> 00:30:07,613 - Think she knew him? - [Holden] Unclear. 457 00:30:07,681 --> 00:30:09,433 You checked out family, friends? 458 00:30:09,766 --> 00:30:12,644 Looking into it. No red flags so far. 459 00:30:12,728 --> 00:30:14,604 We're sure there's no boyfriend in the picture? 460 00:30:14,688 --> 00:30:17,733 All her girlfriends say no, even on the sly. 461 00:30:17,816 --> 00:30:18,817 Was she popular? 462 00:30:19,276 --> 00:30:21,903 Family said she was... gregarious. 463 00:30:21,987 --> 00:30:23,989 - Majorette? - Mm-hmm. That's right. 464 00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:27,909 The outfit is flashy. Shows off her legs. Might have been what caught his eye. 465 00:30:28,035 --> 00:30:29,244 Did she wear it to school? 466 00:30:29,328 --> 00:30:30,829 They found it in her backpack. 467 00:30:31,496 --> 00:30:33,332 A stranger who knew her schedule. 468 00:30:34,333 --> 00:30:35,876 He must have been watching her. 469 00:30:37,586 --> 00:30:40,422 - Who would have reason to be out here? - This is farmland. 470 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:42,007 Seasonal workers? 471 00:30:42,924 --> 00:30:44,468 Well, I can check. 472 00:30:44,551 --> 00:30:47,471 The area where she was found, it was familiar to locals? 473 00:30:47,763 --> 00:30:50,015 It's known as a lovers' lane. 474 00:30:50,098 --> 00:30:52,059 - Lovers' lane? - Jesus. 475 00:30:52,142 --> 00:30:55,979 - Could he have thought of it as a date? - He truly was not thinking ahead. 476 00:30:56,772 --> 00:30:59,024 We don't believe the unsub planned the murder. 477 00:30:59,107 --> 00:31:00,901 He certainly didn't try to cover it up. 478 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,486 Like Gregg said, 479 00:31:02,569 --> 00:31:04,988 if he knows about a lovers' lane, he could be from the area. 480 00:31:05,072 --> 00:31:06,948 And it might not be his first rape. 481 00:31:08,158 --> 00:31:12,037 See what records you've got on young men in the Floyd and Bartow Counties. 482 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,955 - Yep. - How often does this get done? 483 00:31:14,873 --> 00:31:16,416 - Hm? - The trees. 484 00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:18,418 They've been cleared around the power lines. 485 00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:19,503 [shutter clicks] 486 00:31:21,546 --> 00:31:22,839 [man] Oh... 487 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:24,883 Well, this is rural Georgia. 488 00:31:26,385 --> 00:31:27,511 Not very often. 489 00:31:27,594 --> 00:31:29,304 Well, those limbs are freshly cut. 490 00:31:30,639 --> 00:31:32,808 You think a service crew might have been out here? 491 00:31:35,352 --> 00:31:36,353 Thank you. 492 00:31:38,146 --> 00:31:40,482 I just got off a call with Floyd County. 493 00:31:40,565 --> 00:31:44,111 They say they recently questioned a guy about the rape of a 13-year-old girl. 494 00:31:44,194 --> 00:31:46,029 He works for a tree-limbing service. 495 00:31:46,113 --> 00:31:48,865 - He spent a week on the Porter's street. - Bingo. 496 00:31:49,282 --> 00:31:52,244 Name's Darrell Gene Devier, 24 years old. 497 00:31:52,327 --> 00:31:53,829 High school dropout. 498 00:31:53,912 --> 00:31:57,666 Was in the army, went AWOL, discharged after seven months. 499 00:31:57,749 --> 00:31:59,751 - Couldn't handle the military. - Disorganized. 500 00:31:59,835 --> 00:32:01,586 - Makes sense. - Single? Married? 501 00:32:02,045 --> 00:32:04,840 Married and divorced twice. Living with his first ex-wife. 502 00:32:04,923 --> 00:32:07,384 Sexually and socially competent, if indecisive. 503 00:32:07,467 --> 00:32:08,653 Can't get over the young girls. 504 00:32:08,677 --> 00:32:11,096 Every afternoon, he watches Lisa get off the bus. 505 00:32:11,179 --> 00:32:14,433 She's got a sunny disposition, maybe she even talks to him. 506 00:32:14,516 --> 00:32:17,894 He sees her in her majorette outfit. It makes her look a little older than 12, 507 00:32:17,978 --> 00:32:19,896 and he's able to justify his attraction to her, 508 00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:22,732 maybe even fantasize that she would enjoy having sex with him. 509 00:32:22,816 --> 00:32:24,860 But once he's assaulted her, she is terrified, 510 00:32:24,943 --> 00:32:26,570 she's in pain, she's crying. 511 00:32:26,653 --> 00:32:28,029 Not fun. The fantasy's over. 512 00:32:28,113 --> 00:32:30,699 He realizes, to get away with it, he has to kill her. 513 00:32:31,616 --> 00:32:34,995 Has her get dressed, he'll let her go. When she turns around, he strangles her. 514 00:32:35,078 --> 00:32:36,764 It's harder than he thought, he can't finish. 515 00:32:36,788 --> 00:32:38,206 So he picks up a rock. 516 00:32:38,957 --> 00:32:41,126 After, perhaps shocked at what he's done or ashamed, 517 00:32:41,209 --> 00:32:42,586 he puts the coat over her head. 518 00:32:42,669 --> 00:32:44,439 [man] We're getting a warrant to search his car. 519 00:32:44,463 --> 00:32:47,183 - We'll bring him for a lie detector test. - [Tench] Not recommended. 520 00:32:47,257 --> 00:32:50,677 The outcome of the polygraph can depend on the quality of the questions. 521 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,679 We use it all the time. It's standard procedure. 522 00:32:52,762 --> 00:32:55,682 If he's a sociopath, he doesn't register emotions the way we do. 523 00:32:55,765 --> 00:32:59,394 Wait, you said he might be ashamed for what he's done. 524 00:32:59,853 --> 00:33:02,939 - Now, how's that square with a sociopath? - [Tench] Murdering a little girl? 525 00:33:03,023 --> 00:33:05,108 He had the confidence to take a human life. 526 00:33:05,192 --> 00:33:07,861 If he beats the polygraph, he'll think he's Superman. 527 00:33:11,406 --> 00:33:12,741 [Shepard] Thanks for coming up. 528 00:33:12,824 --> 00:33:16,077 It's always a pleasure to see daylight. What's the bad news? 529 00:33:16,161 --> 00:33:17,889 We have a branch of the Department of Justice 530 00:33:17,913 --> 00:33:20,165 called the Office of Professional Responsibility. 531 00:33:20,248 --> 00:33:21,166 That sounds very bad. 532 00:33:21,249 --> 00:33:23,335 They look into allegations of official misconduct. 533 00:33:23,418 --> 00:33:26,421 Usually there's nothing to it, but they can make your life difficult. 534 00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:29,716 They are considering investigating the unit for a civil rights violation. 535 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:30,926 Is this about Brudos? 536 00:33:32,302 --> 00:33:33,470 This is about Richard Speck. 537 00:33:34,513 --> 00:33:35,847 He was jumped by a couple inmates 538 00:33:35,931 --> 00:33:38,683 after the interview conducted by Agents Tench and Ford. 539 00:33:38,767 --> 00:33:41,853 Claimed they made a public show of his meeting with the FBI, 540 00:33:42,187 --> 00:33:43,227 didn't respect his safety. 541 00:33:43,271 --> 00:33:46,858 How the agents interact with the prison administration is not my purview. 542 00:33:46,942 --> 00:33:49,611 Understood. That's not really the charge I'm worried about. 543 00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:54,574 Speck also wants to cite Agent Ford for "fucking with his head." 544 00:33:54,658 --> 00:33:55,492 Anything specific? 545 00:33:55,575 --> 00:33:57,994 No, but we have all suffered Agent Ford's head fucking. 546 00:33:58,078 --> 00:34:00,956 - Indeed. - So it has an ominous ring of truth. 547 00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:04,459 What is the format for evaluating these subjects? 548 00:34:04,543 --> 00:34:08,380 A short script and a questionnaire, but the agents don't always adhere to it. 549 00:34:08,463 --> 00:34:09,673 Why did you mention Brudos? 550 00:34:10,674 --> 00:34:12,884 During his interview, Brudos was obfuscating, 551 00:34:12,968 --> 00:34:19,641 so the agents brought in a woman's shoe to elicit a response. 552 00:34:19,724 --> 00:34:21,142 Was that part of the script? 553 00:34:21,226 --> 00:34:23,853 If I were being polite, I'd call it bad improvisation. 554 00:34:24,229 --> 00:34:28,275 I'm asking all of this because no one's crying for Richard Speck. 555 00:34:28,358 --> 00:34:31,111 He can file a complaint and they are required to look into it. 556 00:34:31,194 --> 00:34:35,115 But these internal affairs types justify their existence by finding dirt, 557 00:34:35,198 --> 00:34:37,284 and I want to make sure there's nothing here. 558 00:34:37,367 --> 00:34:38,847 - Nothing that I can think of. - Good. 559 00:34:38,910 --> 00:34:42,330 Tell the boys that the OPR would like to see them at their earliest convenience. 560 00:34:42,414 --> 00:34:45,458 They should take all their materials, everything Speck-related. 561 00:34:45,542 --> 00:34:48,420 You know, I don't want to be their boss. 562 00:34:48,503 --> 00:34:51,214 I'll be the boss. You be the messenger. 563 00:34:52,549 --> 00:34:53,550 All right. 564 00:35:00,181 --> 00:35:03,184 Fucking Richard Speck filed a complaint? That piece of shit. 565 00:35:03,268 --> 00:35:04,811 We violated his rights. 566 00:35:04,894 --> 00:35:07,314 Those morons at Joliet didn't do a thing I asked. 567 00:35:07,397 --> 00:35:10,400 Okay, so tell the OPR that. It sounds like it is just a formality. 568 00:35:10,483 --> 00:35:11,651 It's a pain in the ass. 569 00:35:11,735 --> 00:35:14,613 It shows they're interested. Take everything that you've got on Speck. 570 00:35:14,696 --> 00:35:18,074 - Like what? - Like the file, the tape, transcript. 571 00:35:20,952 --> 00:35:22,203 You're coming with us. 572 00:35:31,463 --> 00:35:32,797 Hey. Hey. 573 00:35:33,923 --> 00:35:35,258 The transcript is fine. 574 00:36:31,356 --> 00:36:32,565 Please state your names. 575 00:36:33,149 --> 00:36:34,693 Special Agent William Tench. 576 00:36:34,776 --> 00:36:36,444 Special Agent Holden Ford. 577 00:36:36,903 --> 00:36:38,488 Special Agent Gregg Smith. 578 00:36:39,406 --> 00:36:42,617 In what capacity do you serve the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 579 00:36:43,118 --> 00:36:44,202 For the record. 580 00:36:44,828 --> 00:36:46,705 We're in the Behavioral Science Unit. 581 00:36:46,788 --> 00:36:48,456 How would you summarize what you do? 582 00:36:48,540 --> 00:36:51,126 - Research. - Could you be more specific? 583 00:36:51,543 --> 00:36:52,812 [Tench] We're engaged in a study 584 00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:55,130 funded by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration 585 00:36:55,213 --> 00:36:57,048 and the National Institute of Justice 586 00:36:57,132 --> 00:36:59,134 to interview criminals convicted of violent crimes, 587 00:36:59,217 --> 00:37:00,468 classify their behavior, 588 00:37:00,552 --> 00:37:03,638 and create a profiling manual for domestic law enforcement. 589 00:37:03,763 --> 00:37:04,763 Hm. 590 00:37:05,265 --> 00:37:07,934 You're here because we have complaints filed against the Bureau 591 00:37:08,017 --> 00:37:10,537 by the Illinois Department of Corrections on behalf of an inmate 592 00:37:10,603 --> 00:37:13,481 who claims you knowingly put him in danger with your visitation. 593 00:37:13,565 --> 00:37:15,275 - Richard Speck. - That's right. 594 00:37:15,358 --> 00:37:19,279 If I may, we made arrangements that we felt would guarantee his safety. 595 00:37:19,362 --> 00:37:20,362 When we arrived, 596 00:37:20,405 --> 00:37:23,324 the deputy warden took it upon himself to ignore all of them. 597 00:37:23,408 --> 00:37:26,453 - Were these verbal arrangements, written? - [Tench] Written. 598 00:37:26,536 --> 00:37:28,538 I have their faxed agreement to our terms. 599 00:37:29,998 --> 00:37:32,751 Agent Ford, you're directly named in the complaint. 600 00:37:33,877 --> 00:37:38,214 The inmate said you, quote, "fucked with his head," unquote. 601 00:37:38,298 --> 00:37:41,801 I'm sure the nature of my questioning brought back uncomfortable memories. 602 00:37:41,885 --> 00:37:44,596 - You asked him about... - [Holden] The night he killed eight women. 603 00:37:45,054 --> 00:37:47,682 His sexual performance. Stuff like that. 604 00:37:47,766 --> 00:37:50,727 - Are these questions prepared in advance? - [Tench] We work from this. 605 00:37:50,810 --> 00:37:52,228 But every subject is different. 606 00:37:52,854 --> 00:37:55,190 We usually have to improvise. 607 00:37:55,273 --> 00:37:58,318 With Speck, I applied a slightly aggressive interview style, 608 00:37:58,401 --> 00:37:59,694 tried to speak his language. 609 00:37:59,778 --> 00:38:01,029 Speak his language? 610 00:38:01,112 --> 00:38:02,363 Get into his rhythm. 611 00:38:02,447 --> 00:38:04,741 I'm assuming you have a record of the interview. 612 00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:06,034 We have a transcript. 613 00:38:07,869 --> 00:38:09,162 Gregg? 614 00:38:16,002 --> 00:38:18,272 - Where did this come from? - [Gregg] Tape of the interview. 615 00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:19,506 Tape? You have the tape? 616 00:38:20,757 --> 00:38:24,719 We reuse our tapes. I'm afraid that we erased that interview. 617 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,224 You erased the interview? 618 00:38:29,849 --> 00:38:30,892 Yes. 619 00:38:32,644 --> 00:38:35,271 We recommend you do not do that in the future. 620 00:38:36,064 --> 00:38:37,064 [Gregg] No, sir. 621 00:38:37,524 --> 00:38:41,569 I'm assuming your funding would cover the purchase and archiving of audio tapes. 622 00:38:41,653 --> 00:38:42,653 Yes, sir. 623 00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:46,616 Are there other materials you have to share with us? 624 00:38:47,158 --> 00:38:50,078 These are the pre- and post-interview notes on the inmate. 625 00:38:50,578 --> 00:38:51,788 Should be everything. 626 00:38:51,871 --> 00:38:54,707 Gentlemen, we'll review these and keep you updated on our findings. 627 00:38:54,791 --> 00:38:56,584 What we expect from you during this process, 628 00:38:56,668 --> 00:38:58,753 more than anything, is candor. 629 00:39:06,427 --> 00:39:08,638 Richard Speck, what a shit stain, huh? 630 00:39:08,721 --> 00:39:11,432 [laughing] 631 00:39:11,516 --> 00:39:12,684 Read to the end. 632 00:39:12,767 --> 00:39:14,644 We should have kept the tape just for that. 633 00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:16,271 [imitates squawking, laughs] 634 00:39:16,354 --> 00:39:18,356 - Fascinating. - Thanks, guys. 635 00:39:18,439 --> 00:39:19,983 [elevator dings] 636 00:39:22,694 --> 00:39:24,654 I'm soaking. I sweat right through my shirt. 637 00:39:24,737 --> 00:39:27,240 - I noticed. - I'm not good at this. 638 00:39:27,323 --> 00:39:28,992 [Holden] It's over, you did fine. 639 00:39:30,577 --> 00:39:33,413 What should we do with the tape? Destroy it? 640 00:39:33,496 --> 00:39:35,290 Probably. Where is it? 641 00:39:35,748 --> 00:39:38,167 - In my desk. - [Holden] Just give it to me. 642 00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:40,044 [Gregg] This whole thing makes me nervous. 643 00:39:40,128 --> 00:39:41,504 [Holden] You said that, Gregg. 644 00:39:41,588 --> 00:39:45,091 It's a prison interview, not Watergate. 645 00:39:51,306 --> 00:39:53,933 - What's going on? - Maybe you can tell us that. 646 00:39:57,604 --> 00:40:00,315 Holden, would you care to do the honors? 647 00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:04,670 [Shepard] What did you tell the Office of Professional Responsibility? 648 00:40:04,694 --> 00:40:06,821 Nothing. There was nothing there. 649 00:40:07,530 --> 00:40:09,490 We gave them a transcript, that's all. 650 00:40:09,574 --> 00:40:10,992 So you're in on this, too? 651 00:40:12,035 --> 00:40:13,620 Well, Agent Ford approached me... 652 00:40:13,703 --> 00:40:15,747 Do not say, "Holden made me do it." 653 00:40:15,830 --> 00:40:16,748 Sorry, I apologize. 654 00:40:16,831 --> 00:40:18,833 I don't even know where to begin. Wendy? 655 00:40:18,917 --> 00:40:20,752 "Eight ripe cunts"? 656 00:40:20,835 --> 00:40:23,296 - Sure, let's start there. - Jesus, not this again. 657 00:40:23,379 --> 00:40:25,089 [Carr] Did you have Gregg redact it? 658 00:40:26,174 --> 00:40:28,944 - So you must have known it was sensitive. - Sensitive for some people. 659 00:40:28,968 --> 00:40:30,887 - Meaning me. - I don't like it either. 660 00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:34,557 We can't like everything we do. We're talking to serial killers. 661 00:40:34,641 --> 00:40:37,018 - "Serial killers"? - New terminology. 662 00:40:37,101 --> 00:40:39,479 [Shepard] So you're gonna say and do whatever you want. 663 00:40:39,562 --> 00:40:43,358 Never mind that we are answerable to the LEAA and the NIJ. 664 00:40:43,441 --> 00:40:46,945 This study is funded with Congressional dollars, taxpayer money, 665 00:40:47,028 --> 00:40:48,863 which means your interviews are public record. 666 00:40:48,947 --> 00:40:50,215 [Holden] I would've left it as is. 667 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,319 I really don't have a problem with this being public. 668 00:40:52,367 --> 00:40:55,453 All of us have to go along with what you consider to be appropriate? 669 00:40:55,536 --> 00:40:57,580 We've never discussed what's appropriate. 670 00:40:57,664 --> 00:40:59,584 - Of course we have. - We haven't made decisions. 671 00:40:59,624 --> 00:41:01,977 There's no procedural rule book for how to talk to these people. 672 00:41:02,001 --> 00:41:03,687 We spent a month drawing up that questionnaire. 673 00:41:03,711 --> 00:41:05,755 It is a framework for substantive input. 674 00:41:05,838 --> 00:41:08,150 - It doesn't always work. - [Carr] You haven't let it work. 675 00:41:08,174 --> 00:41:10,774 You're so impatient, you weren't in there three minutes with Speck 676 00:41:10,802 --> 00:41:12,929 before you got him going with the cunt speak. 677 00:41:13,012 --> 00:41:15,115 That's when he admitted to raping only one of the women. 678 00:41:15,139 --> 00:41:17,976 You want truffles, you gotta get in the dirt with the pigs. 679 00:41:18,059 --> 00:41:19,310 No, we don't. 680 00:41:19,394 --> 00:41:20,770 We are the FBI. 681 00:41:21,854 --> 00:41:23,064 Look at that board. 682 00:41:24,899 --> 00:41:26,150 Look at our work. 683 00:41:27,110 --> 00:41:29,213 Because of that, Bill and I were able to identify a murderer 684 00:41:29,237 --> 00:41:30,613 last week in Georgia. 685 00:41:30,697 --> 00:41:33,157 This is no longer a theoretical exercise. 686 00:41:33,241 --> 00:41:35,401 That board is mostly the result of background research, 687 00:41:35,451 --> 00:41:37,620 not priceless gems you seem to think you're mining. 688 00:41:37,704 --> 00:41:38,913 [Holden] It all goes together. 689 00:41:38,997 --> 00:41:41,499 Everything we do informs the bigger picture. 690 00:41:41,582 --> 00:41:44,942 Right, and if our tactics blow back on us, then the whole thing could be jeopardized. 691 00:41:45,003 --> 00:41:47,755 We have at least 40 convicts to interview, the data will aggregate... 692 00:41:47,839 --> 00:41:49,841 There is no need to wait that long. 693 00:41:49,924 --> 00:41:51,259 What happened in that meeting? 694 00:41:53,386 --> 00:41:56,097 I lied. I outright lied to the OPR. 695 00:41:56,180 --> 00:41:57,390 What did you say? 696 00:41:57,473 --> 00:41:59,308 That I erased the Speck tape. 697 00:41:59,392 --> 00:42:01,811 - You gave them the redacted transcript? - Yes. 698 00:42:03,229 --> 00:42:07,066 - They don't know about the "ripe cunts." - They don't care. 699 00:42:07,150 --> 00:42:09,110 So we're all in on a little cover-up here. 700 00:42:09,694 --> 00:42:11,195 I can't be part of a cover-up. 701 00:42:11,279 --> 00:42:14,240 - You told them there was no tape. - [Gregg] Well, I was, um... 702 00:42:14,991 --> 00:42:16,617 I don't do deceit very well. 703 00:42:16,701 --> 00:42:20,163 There is no way they will know about the tape unless we tell them. 704 00:42:20,246 --> 00:42:22,166 - We just don't say a thing. - [Carr] I disagree. 705 00:42:22,248 --> 00:42:24,375 We turn the tape over and be completely transparent. 706 00:42:24,459 --> 00:42:26,753 If we're caught in a lie, it'll be very bad. 707 00:42:26,836 --> 00:42:29,047 - I'm okay with it. - I started this thing. 708 00:42:32,133 --> 00:42:34,427 It is not too late to go back to the OPR. 709 00:42:34,510 --> 00:42:35,928 - And tell them what? - The truth. 710 00:42:36,012 --> 00:42:38,097 Easy for you to say, Wendy, you're a consultant. 711 00:42:38,181 --> 00:42:40,224 If they open an investigation, which they will... 712 00:42:40,308 --> 00:42:41,476 [Tench] Leave it. 713 00:42:42,977 --> 00:42:44,520 Burn the fucking tape. 714 00:42:45,521 --> 00:42:48,107 They don't give a shit about Speck. Nobody does. 715 00:42:49,275 --> 00:42:50,610 This can die right here. 716 00:43:00,369 --> 00:43:02,330 We are not going to turn in the tape. 717 00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:05,708 We're not going to speak about this anymore. We will protect the unit. 718 00:43:06,501 --> 00:43:08,127 But something is wrong here. 719 00:43:09,879 --> 00:43:13,216 In my entire professional life, I've never been put in a position 720 00:43:13,299 --> 00:43:16,803 of having to withhold information from the Bureau, and I resent it. 721 00:43:18,721 --> 00:43:22,558 Moving forward, establish clear guidelines for the behavior in these interviews, 722 00:43:22,642 --> 00:43:24,018 and you will adhere to them. 723 00:43:24,936 --> 00:43:27,536 I never want to listen to a tape where I can't tell the difference 724 00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:30,608 between my agent and some incarcerated lowlife. 725 00:44:10,106 --> 00:44:13,568 [The Alan Parsons Project's "I Wouldn't Want to Be Like You" playing] 726 00:44:56,777 --> 00:44:59,655 ♪ If I had a mind to ♪ 727 00:45:01,282 --> 00:45:04,410 ♪ I wouldn't want to think like you ♪ 728 00:45:06,078 --> 00:45:09,332 ♪ And if I had time to ♪ 729 00:45:11,125 --> 00:45:13,294 ♪ I wouldn't want to talk to you ♪ 730 00:45:13,586 --> 00:45:17,965 ♪ Oh, I don't care ♪ 731 00:45:18,299 --> 00:45:20,051 ♪ What you do ♪ 732 00:45:20,551 --> 00:45:23,679 ♪ I wouldn't want to be like you Yeah ♪ 733 00:45:25,264 --> 00:45:27,683 ♪ If I was high-class ♪ 734 00:45:29,769 --> 00:45:32,271 ♪ I wouldn't need a buck to pass ♪ 735 00:45:34,815 --> 00:45:37,526 ♪ And if I was a fall guy ♪ 736 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,531 ♪ I wouldn't need no alibi ♪ 737 00:45:44,492 --> 00:45:48,621 ♪ I don't care what you do ♪ 738 00:45:49,121 --> 00:45:54,418 ♪ I wouldn't want to be like you Oh, oh, oh ♪ 739 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,241 ♪ Back on the bottom line ♪ 740 00:46:26,158 --> 00:46:30,329 ♪ Diggin' for a lousy dime, yeah ♪ 741 00:46:31,831 --> 00:46:35,126 ♪ If I hit a mother lode ♪ 742 00:46:35,876 --> 00:46:38,796 ♪ I'd cover anything that showed ♪ 743 00:46:39,046 --> 00:46:45,636 ♪ Oh, oh, I don't care what you do ♪ 744 00:46:46,095 --> 00:46:49,807 ♪ I wouldn't want to be like you, yeah ♪ 745 00:46:51,017 --> 00:46:53,561 ♪ If I was high-class ♪ 746 00:46:55,438 --> 00:46:58,065 ♪ I wouldn't need a buck to pass ♪ 747 00:47:00,318 --> 00:47:03,029 ♪ And if I was a fall guy ♪ 748 00:47:04,822 --> 00:47:08,075 ♪ I wouldn't need no alibi ♪ 749 00:47:09,952 --> 00:47:14,123 ♪ I don't care what you do ♪ 750 00:47:14,582 --> 00:47:15,791 ♪ I wouldn't want to ♪ 751 00:47:17,001 --> 00:47:20,963 ♪ I wouldn't want to be like you Ooh, ooh ♪ 752 00:47:21,464 --> 00:47:24,967 ♪ I wouldn't want to be like you ♪ 753 00:47:26,344 --> 00:47:27,345 ♪ Yeah ♪ 754 00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:29,805 ♪ Ooh ♪ 755 00:47:30,973 --> 00:47:31,974 ♪ Yeah ♪ 756 00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:34,602 ♪ Ooh ♪ 757 00:47:35,978 --> 00:47:36,979 ♪ Yeah ♪ 758 00:47:37,980 --> 00:47:39,482 ♪ Ooh ♪ 759 00:47:40,649 --> 00:47:41,859 ♪ Yeah ♪