1 00:00:09,507 --> 00:00:12,426 [SIREN BLARING IN DISTANCE] 2 00:00:13,052 --> 00:00:14,679 [MAN OVER MEGAPHONE] Mr. Miller? 3 00:00:16,180 --> 00:00:18,724 Is everyone okay in there? 4 00:00:18,808 --> 00:00:19,892 [CAR DOOR OPENS] 5 00:00:20,768 --> 00:00:22,186 Agent Ford, FBI. 6 00:00:25,214 --> 00:00:26,274 Here, sir. 7 00:00:26,357 --> 00:00:28,943 [MAN OVER MEGAPHONE] We want to know what's going on. 8 00:00:29,735 --> 00:00:32,905 If you harm anyone, it will not end well for you! 9 00:00:32,989 --> 00:00:34,490 Special Agent Holden Ford. 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,910 - Ninkovich. - Is he talking? 11 00:00:37,994 --> 00:00:39,328 Not making sense. Been briefed? 12 00:00:39,412 --> 00:00:41,289 On the way over. Five people still in there? 13 00:00:41,372 --> 00:00:44,125 A security guard, the secretary, three guys from the line. 14 00:00:44,208 --> 00:00:45,459 [DOOR OPENS] 15 00:00:47,044 --> 00:00:50,006 - [MILLER] Where is she? - [NINKOVICH] Take it easy, Mr. Miller. 16 00:00:50,089 --> 00:00:51,757 [MILLER] I want my wife! 17 00:00:51,841 --> 00:00:54,510 Put the gun down, step away from Ms. Curtwell. 18 00:00:54,594 --> 00:00:59,056 - [MILLER] I have asked you... - We need to see that everyone is unharmed. 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:00,716 You gonna shoot me? 20 00:01:01,017 --> 00:01:04,729 If you do not abide by our terms, and soon... 21 00:01:04,812 --> 00:01:06,314 You can't see me! 22 00:01:06,397 --> 00:01:09,609 I'm warning you, our patience is wearing thin. 23 00:01:09,692 --> 00:01:12,695 How can you shoot what you can't see? 24 00:01:12,778 --> 00:01:13,779 Mr. Miller! 25 00:01:14,363 --> 00:01:15,948 - No, thank you. - [FEEDBACK SQUEALS] 26 00:01:16,032 --> 00:01:17,366 Hey, Cody. 27 00:01:18,701 --> 00:01:21,537 My name is Holden. I'd like to help you. 28 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:24,707 - Tell me what's going on. - I gotta talk to my wife. 29 00:01:24,790 --> 00:01:26,459 - [HOLDEN] All right. - She's the only one. 30 00:01:26,542 --> 00:01:27,793 I understand. 31 00:01:27,877 --> 00:01:30,588 For the moment, is there anything else we can get you? 32 00:01:30,671 --> 00:01:32,673 Get these fucking people away. 33 00:01:32,757 --> 00:01:33,774 Okay. 34 00:01:36,260 --> 00:01:39,263 - Okay... - [CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING] 35 00:01:40,348 --> 00:01:41,849 [SIGHS] 36 00:01:41,932 --> 00:01:43,976 If I can get them to back off, 37 00:01:44,518 --> 00:01:47,813 will you... relax with Ms. Curtwell? 38 00:01:48,731 --> 00:01:51,359 Give us some time to reach your wife. 39 00:01:54,195 --> 00:01:55,363 [MILLER] Okay. 40 00:01:55,446 --> 00:01:56,489 Thank you. 41 00:02:00,993 --> 00:02:03,537 Keep the snipers. Back out the perimeter. 42 00:02:03,621 --> 00:02:05,539 If he starts firing, we'll have to storm the place. 43 00:02:05,623 --> 00:02:07,708 They're making me nervous. Imagine what they're doing to him. 44 00:02:07,792 --> 00:02:10,252 He has no criminal history. He's clearly having an episode. 45 00:02:10,336 --> 00:02:12,672 We need to keep him calm and wear him down. 46 00:02:13,089 --> 00:02:14,590 Get rid of those reporters. 47 00:02:16,384 --> 00:02:17,802 [INDISTINCT RADIO CHATTER] 48 00:02:17,885 --> 00:02:19,595 All right, guys. Back it up! 49 00:02:19,679 --> 00:02:22,723 - [MAN] All right. Let's go. Back it up. - [MAN 2] Move back. 50 00:02:24,892 --> 00:02:25,893 How am I doing? 51 00:02:27,478 --> 00:02:28,979 [WOMAN GASPS] 52 00:02:32,233 --> 00:02:34,402 - [MILLER] You see me? - Oh, God. 53 00:02:36,153 --> 00:02:37,905 Yes, I can see you! 54 00:02:39,365 --> 00:02:42,326 - What do you see? - [HOLDEN] I can see that you're naked. 55 00:02:42,910 --> 00:02:44,495 I can see that you're cold. 56 00:02:44,578 --> 00:02:47,665 [THUNDER RUMBLING] 57 00:02:52,545 --> 00:02:54,380 [INDISTINCT RADIO CHATTER] 58 00:02:54,463 --> 00:02:56,298 Is there a phone? Can we get him on the line? 59 00:02:56,382 --> 00:02:59,343 - He's got it off the hook. - That was his demand, talk to his wife? 60 00:02:59,427 --> 00:03:01,387 Took all day to find her. She's on her way. 61 00:03:01,470 --> 00:03:03,722 - You're not bringing her. - I want her to calm him. 62 00:03:03,806 --> 00:03:05,474 Her presence might have the opposite effect. 63 00:03:09,228 --> 00:03:11,355 Hi, Mrs. Miller? Don't get out. 64 00:03:11,439 --> 00:03:14,900 I'm Holden Ford from the FBI. Do you understand the situation? 65 00:03:14,984 --> 00:03:18,404 - Cody's got some people in there? - What happened this morning? 66 00:03:18,487 --> 00:03:19,547 I don't know. 67 00:03:19,989 --> 00:03:23,033 I tried to get him sectioned on Sunday, but I haven't seen him since. 68 00:03:23,117 --> 00:03:26,412 They told me he stole a shotgun, robbed a liquor store? 69 00:03:26,495 --> 00:03:27,788 Was he delusional? Violent? 70 00:03:27,872 --> 00:03:29,790 He's not violent. 71 00:03:29,874 --> 00:03:32,918 He's been saying that he's invisible for a while now. 72 00:03:33,002 --> 00:03:35,045 Truly invisible. He's been seeing a doctor. 73 00:03:35,129 --> 00:03:36,297 Did the doctor diagnose him? 74 00:03:36,922 --> 00:03:38,591 Cody wouldn't tell me. 75 00:03:38,674 --> 00:03:41,135 He's taking medication, but he might've stopped. 76 00:03:41,218 --> 00:03:43,512 - What kind of medication? - I'm not sure. 77 00:03:44,413 --> 00:03:45,473 Here's his doctor. 78 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:47,308 You tried to get him sectioned? 79 00:03:47,391 --> 00:03:49,157 He kept talking to people that weren't there, 80 00:03:49,158 --> 00:03:50,561 saying they could see him. 81 00:03:51,437 --> 00:03:54,064 I told him I was gonna leave him if he didn't go to the hospital. 82 00:03:54,148 --> 00:03:56,609 - You gave him an ultimatum? - [MRS. MILLER SOBBING] I'm sorry. 83 00:03:57,526 --> 00:03:59,862 - I feel awful. - This is not your fault. 84 00:04:00,321 --> 00:04:01,739 Has he hurt anyone? 85 00:04:01,822 --> 00:04:04,408 Not that we know about. I'm sending you along for now. 86 00:04:04,909 --> 00:04:06,327 [BANGS ON ROOF OF CAR] 87 00:04:09,246 --> 00:04:10,790 Have someone call his doctor. 88 00:04:10,873 --> 00:04:12,833 Get his wife to tell him she won't leave him. 89 00:04:12,917 --> 00:04:16,003 We need more information. Let's see if we can get him on the line. 90 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,131 Cody! 91 00:04:19,215 --> 00:04:21,217 Everything okay in there? 92 00:04:24,178 --> 00:04:26,138 I'd really like to know what's going on in there. 93 00:04:26,222 --> 00:04:28,098 I promise you, we can work this out. 94 00:04:35,940 --> 00:04:37,066 Where's my wife? 95 00:04:37,566 --> 00:04:41,278 [HOLDEN] It's a difficult situation. Taking a while to get her here. 96 00:04:41,362 --> 00:04:43,572 - She doesn't want to talk to me? - [HOLDEN] That's not it. 97 00:04:43,656 --> 00:04:46,283 She is very worried about you. 98 00:04:46,826 --> 00:04:49,245 - You talked to her? - [HOLDEN] On the phone. 99 00:04:50,287 --> 00:04:53,249 - Maybe you could talk to her on the phone. - No! 100 00:04:55,084 --> 00:04:56,669 She has to be here. 101 00:05:01,715 --> 00:05:05,261 - [HOLDEN] I understand your frustration. - [MILLER] What do you understand? 102 00:05:05,344 --> 00:05:09,014 [HOLDEN] Not being able to communicate with a trusted loved one. 103 00:05:10,266 --> 00:05:11,809 What do you want to say to her? 104 00:05:12,810 --> 00:05:14,019 Why would I tell you? 105 00:05:17,273 --> 00:05:18,774 Maybe I can help. 106 00:05:20,693 --> 00:05:21,777 I don't think so. 107 00:05:25,573 --> 00:05:28,909 [SCREAMS] 108 00:05:28,993 --> 00:05:31,662 [ALL CLAMORING] 109 00:05:41,213 --> 00:05:43,841 [THEME MUSIC PLAYING] 110 00:07:21,146 --> 00:07:22,356 [DOOR OPENS] 111 00:08:22,708 --> 00:08:23,742 [EXHALES] 112 00:09:23,352 --> 00:09:24,853 - Thank you. - You're welcome. 113 00:09:35,864 --> 00:09:37,899 You followed procedure. You did your job. 114 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:40,786 You did everything by the book. 115 00:09:40,869 --> 00:09:43,622 He took hostages. He knew there'd be consequences. 116 00:09:43,705 --> 00:09:45,707 - He thought he was invisible. - You're not his shrink. 117 00:09:45,791 --> 00:09:48,961 You're not responsible for diagnosing him. That's not your remit. 118 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,090 These things happen in real time, and we are the last responders. 119 00:09:53,173 --> 00:09:56,718 If an operation's gonna go south, this is not the worst outcome. 120 00:09:56,802 --> 00:09:58,470 Stay focused on what we do. 121 00:09:58,554 --> 00:10:01,431 If I did everything by the book, it begs the question... 122 00:10:01,515 --> 00:10:03,194 This place is pretty much 123 00:10:03,195 --> 00:10:05,519 the benchmark for excellence in law enforcement. 124 00:10:06,728 --> 00:10:09,606 In the rest of the world, hostage negotiation's on its way out. 125 00:10:09,690 --> 00:10:12,651 You think the Israelis bothered to negotiate at Entebbe last year? 126 00:10:14,903 --> 00:10:17,372 You didn't lose one hostage or bystander. 127 00:10:17,373 --> 00:10:19,491 That's how we measure success. 128 00:10:21,493 --> 00:10:24,121 And your courses are a big hit in the summer. 129 00:10:24,204 --> 00:10:26,290 I actually think you should be teaching more. 130 00:10:26,373 --> 00:10:28,500 - You're putting me out to pasture. - No. 131 00:10:28,584 --> 00:10:30,586 I'm putting you to work where it really counts. 132 00:10:30,669 --> 00:10:32,045 Despite what happened. 133 00:10:32,129 --> 00:10:34,381 Because of what happened, Holden. 134 00:10:34,882 --> 00:10:35,924 It seasoned you. 135 00:10:40,137 --> 00:10:41,138 Thank you, sir... 136 00:10:42,139 --> 00:10:43,140 but I'd rather not. 137 00:10:43,223 --> 00:10:44,808 Well, this is awkward. 138 00:10:47,519 --> 00:10:49,730 I'd like you to sleep on it over the weekend... 139 00:10:51,356 --> 00:10:53,525 because you start full-time on Monday. 140 00:11:01,825 --> 00:11:06,038 This is how we find ourselves completely out of control. 141 00:11:07,247 --> 00:11:08,385 The fugitive has already killed 142 00:11:08,386 --> 00:11:10,751 a police officer that morning in Austin. 143 00:11:12,169 --> 00:11:14,588 He's taken two nine-millimeter rounds in the ass, 144 00:11:14,671 --> 00:11:16,506 grabbed a ten-year-old boy as a hostage, 145 00:11:16,590 --> 00:11:18,425 and he's holed up in a suburban neighborhood 146 00:11:18,508 --> 00:11:20,636 crawling with women and small children. 147 00:11:21,803 --> 00:11:23,722 Now we must focus on one thing: 148 00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:26,099 de-escalation. 149 00:11:26,683 --> 00:11:30,354 San Antonio's chief of police arrives and starts using a bullhorn, 150 00:11:30,437 --> 00:11:33,774 which more than effectively intimidates our hostage-taker. 151 00:11:35,234 --> 00:11:38,278 Coming at anyone with an attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong" 152 00:11:38,362 --> 00:11:40,489 assumes that they're of rational mind. 153 00:11:42,658 --> 00:11:45,410 We must establish communication. 154 00:11:46,787 --> 00:11:49,915 Non-threatening communication. 155 00:11:50,791 --> 00:11:52,084 Ascertain demands, 156 00:11:52,167 --> 00:11:55,295 concede nothing, reject nothing, just listen. 157 00:11:56,838 --> 00:11:58,423 Listen to what he has to say. 158 00:12:00,425 --> 00:12:03,261 Try understanding him instead of trying to dominate him. 159 00:12:04,262 --> 00:12:05,764 Look for common ground. 160 00:12:05,847 --> 00:12:07,849 Find commonality. 161 00:12:08,392 --> 00:12:10,490 And if it feels like you're buying time, well... 162 00:12:10,491 --> 00:12:12,187 that's because you are. 163 00:12:12,729 --> 00:12:15,774 But it's the key to making any perp feel heard. 164 00:12:15,857 --> 00:12:18,318 - [CHIME SOUNDS] - [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 165 00:12:18,402 --> 00:12:19,903 [HOLDEN] Our goal is no body bags. 166 00:12:19,987 --> 00:12:22,364 That is the hostage negotiator win-win. 167 00:12:24,324 --> 00:12:26,910 And I'm in my office on Friday for anyone who has questions 168 00:12:26,994 --> 00:12:29,287 about the psychological strategies exam. 169 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:40,841 [MAN] Wanton, indiscriminate murder. 170 00:12:40,924 --> 00:12:43,552 Seemingly random, serendipitous. 171 00:12:43,635 --> 00:12:45,303 Each one, extremely violent. 172 00:12:45,387 --> 00:12:48,015 No explanation. No apparent reason. 173 00:12:48,098 --> 00:12:49,641 They weren't sexually assaulted, 174 00:12:49,725 --> 00:12:51,685 there was no attempt to relieve them of valuables, 175 00:12:51,768 --> 00:12:53,395 they didn't know their assailant. 176 00:12:53,937 --> 00:12:57,232 Robert Violante and Stacy Moskowitz were making out in their car 177 00:12:57,315 --> 00:13:00,527 when David Berkowitz walked up and shot them both point-blank. 178 00:13:01,403 --> 00:13:03,739 Berkowitz killed six people over two summers, 179 00:13:03,822 --> 00:13:05,782 wounding seven more. Why? 180 00:13:07,034 --> 00:13:09,411 Because a dog told him to do it. 181 00:13:10,787 --> 00:13:11,805 Now... 182 00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:14,624 we can say that the guy's crazy, 183 00:13:14,625 --> 00:13:17,294 or that he's pretending that he's crazy. 184 00:13:17,711 --> 00:13:20,380 But if we're looking for a motive we can understand, 185 00:13:20,464 --> 00:13:22,340 we suddenly find there is none. 186 00:13:22,924 --> 00:13:24,134 It's a void. 187 00:13:24,217 --> 00:13:25,552 It's a black hole. 188 00:13:31,266 --> 00:13:36,021 Forty years ago, your FBI was founded hunting down John Dillinger, 189 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,024 Baby Face Nelson, Machine Gun Kelly. 190 00:13:39,107 --> 00:13:41,777 Criminals who thumbed their noses at society, 191 00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:44,112 but were basically in it for personal gain. 192 00:13:45,072 --> 00:13:49,034 Now, we have extreme violence between strangers. 193 00:13:49,993 --> 00:13:51,536 Where do we go... 194 00:13:52,704 --> 00:13:55,040 when motive becomes elusive? 195 00:14:04,549 --> 00:14:06,635 Excuse me, Professor Rathman? 196 00:14:08,887 --> 00:14:11,306 Holden Ford, Hostage Negotiation. 197 00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:12,599 Peter. Hi. 198 00:14:12,682 --> 00:14:13,829 I listened in on your class earlier. 199 00:14:13,830 --> 00:14:16,039 What you were saying about crime today... 200 00:14:17,187 --> 00:14:18,897 I don't know, it really resonates. 201 00:14:18,980 --> 00:14:21,066 - Gets attention. - Were you teaching this before Berkowitz? 202 00:14:21,149 --> 00:14:23,735 A version of it. The headlines kind of fell into my lap. 203 00:14:23,819 --> 00:14:24,903 What got you started? 204 00:14:25,237 --> 00:14:27,656 Starkweather. Whitman. Manson, of course. 205 00:14:27,739 --> 00:14:30,283 But Son of Sam kind of epitomizes now. 206 00:14:30,367 --> 00:14:32,987 It's as if... we don't know anymore 207 00:14:32,988 --> 00:14:34,454 what moves people to kill one another. 208 00:14:34,538 --> 00:14:37,290 Used to be you find a victim with 50 stab wounds, 209 00:14:37,374 --> 00:14:40,127 you look for the jilted lover, the ex-business partner. 210 00:14:40,377 --> 00:14:44,172 Now... it could be a random run-in with a disgruntled mailman. 211 00:14:44,256 --> 00:14:47,592 It's a different era. No more "Just the facts, ma'am." 212 00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:49,845 That's television. And reruns. 213 00:14:50,429 --> 00:14:52,514 - Crime has changed. - Right. 214 00:14:53,932 --> 00:14:55,767 Do you... want to grab a beer? 215 00:14:57,227 --> 00:14:58,228 Yeah, okay. 216 00:14:59,187 --> 00:15:01,106 [RATHMAN] Look at the unprecedented events 217 00:15:01,189 --> 00:15:03,900 that have occurred in the past decade and a half. 218 00:15:03,984 --> 00:15:05,527 A president assassinated. 219 00:15:05,610 --> 00:15:08,280 Fighting an unpopular war that we didn't win. 220 00:15:08,363 --> 00:15:10,782 National Guard killing four college students. 221 00:15:10,866 --> 00:15:13,326 - You can hardly wrap your mind around it. - Watergate. 222 00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:16,955 Our democracy is vanishing into what? 223 00:15:17,038 --> 00:15:18,707 Is that what all this is about? 224 00:15:18,957 --> 00:15:20,959 Just a response to turmoil? 225 00:15:21,042 --> 00:15:24,129 The government used to be, symbolically, a parental institution. 226 00:15:24,212 --> 00:15:26,673 Now? It's a free-for-all. 227 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:28,236 The world barely makes any sense, 228 00:15:28,237 --> 00:15:30,218 so it follows that crime doesn't either. 229 00:15:30,302 --> 00:15:31,811 You and I could theorize all night, 230 00:15:31,812 --> 00:15:33,763 but the truth is, I don't fucking know. 231 00:15:33,847 --> 00:15:36,057 - I don't know either. - No one does. 232 00:15:36,141 --> 00:15:37,726 But we're supposed to, right? 233 00:15:37,809 --> 00:15:39,244 Sure, but here's the troubling thing: 234 00:15:39,245 --> 00:15:42,272 no one's even asking the questions. 235 00:15:46,151 --> 00:15:47,168 We are. 236 00:15:47,736 --> 00:15:48,737 We are. 237 00:15:51,656 --> 00:15:52,949 Mm! 238 00:15:54,367 --> 00:15:57,621 Next time, let's discuss Lee Harvey Oswald as Oedipus. 239 00:15:59,498 --> 00:16:00,624 - Thank you. - Anytime. 240 00:16:12,928 --> 00:16:14,429 - Hey. - Hey. 241 00:16:14,846 --> 00:16:16,097 What are you looking at? 242 00:16:16,848 --> 00:16:17,974 I like your outfit. 243 00:16:18,517 --> 00:16:20,936 What is that, a jumpsuit? What do you call that? 244 00:16:21,019 --> 00:16:23,146 - This? I call it a jumpsuit. - Stylish. 245 00:16:23,230 --> 00:16:25,732 What do you call that? You look like a Mormon. 246 00:16:26,191 --> 00:16:27,317 You look like my dad. 247 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,443 Is he a Mormon? 248 00:16:28,527 --> 00:16:29,945 No, but he looks like one. 249 00:16:30,028 --> 00:16:31,238 So does mine. 250 00:16:31,321 --> 00:16:33,657 He bought me this suit, as a matter of fact. 251 00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:36,076 Did he buy you those nice shiny shoes? 252 00:16:36,493 --> 00:16:37,569 Yes. 253 00:16:37,953 --> 00:16:40,455 I have one brown pair and one black pair. 254 00:16:41,289 --> 00:16:43,625 I've got sneakers, but I had to buy those myself. 255 00:16:43,708 --> 00:16:46,878 What kind of grown-up lets their parents choose their clothes for them? 256 00:16:48,713 --> 00:16:51,716 - Are you coming on to me? - How do you like my approach? 257 00:16:57,389 --> 00:16:59,015 You having a good time? 258 00:16:59,099 --> 00:17:00,767 - I will be. - Huh! 259 00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:02,060 It's my birthday today. 260 00:17:02,143 --> 00:17:04,396 Happy birthday. How old are you? 261 00:17:04,479 --> 00:17:07,232 - Twenty-four. - You don't look old enough to be in here. 262 00:17:07,315 --> 00:17:09,568 - What are you, a narc? - FBI, actually. 263 00:17:11,069 --> 00:17:12,821 Special Agent Holden Ford. 264 00:17:12,904 --> 00:17:14,239 Wow. 265 00:17:16,032 --> 00:17:18,076 - Can you tell? - Everybody can tell. 266 00:17:18,460 --> 00:17:19,536 You got a gun? 267 00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:21,830 I have one, but I'm not gonna show it to you. 268 00:17:21,913 --> 00:17:22,931 Nuts. 269 00:17:23,665 --> 00:17:26,209 I'm a teacher. Right up the road at Quantico. 270 00:17:26,293 --> 00:17:27,419 What do you teach? 271 00:17:28,295 --> 00:17:31,298 Hostage negotiation, such as it is. 272 00:17:31,381 --> 00:17:34,217 - Holy cow. - You really think I look like a narc? 273 00:17:34,301 --> 00:17:36,469 - Are you kidding? - I don't see it. 274 00:17:36,553 --> 00:17:38,263 You stick out like a sore thumb. 275 00:17:39,681 --> 00:17:43,435 Well, I'm not here to... infiltrate the Black Panthers. 276 00:17:43,768 --> 00:17:47,439 Those guys are hardly Black Panthers. They're engineering students. 277 00:17:47,897 --> 00:17:49,357 You should go talk to them. 278 00:17:49,441 --> 00:17:52,402 I'm sure the FBI's in need of some great-looking black dudes. 279 00:17:52,485 --> 00:17:55,655 - You've got the wrong idea about me. - You gonna book me? 280 00:17:55,739 --> 00:17:56,906 Maybe. 281 00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:58,033 Handcuffs? 282 00:18:03,204 --> 00:18:05,540 I'm here to see this really cool band from Detroit. 283 00:18:06,082 --> 00:18:07,459 You ever been to Detroit? 284 00:18:08,251 --> 00:18:09,794 Yes, actually. I was a... 285 00:18:13,465 --> 00:18:15,925 I was a brick agent there for a couple of years. 286 00:18:16,343 --> 00:18:19,679 I can't believe they're here. They used to play PJ's in Corktown. 287 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:21,848 - You know Corktown? - Sure. 288 00:18:21,931 --> 00:18:24,392 - It looked like a furniture store. - They always sold liquor. 289 00:18:24,476 --> 00:18:25,969 The whole furniture thing was just a front 290 00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:27,854 that started during Prohibition. 291 00:18:27,937 --> 00:18:29,356 Where are you really from? 292 00:18:29,898 --> 00:18:31,566 [SIGHS] Everywhere. 293 00:18:31,650 --> 00:18:33,318 But the Midwest, right? 294 00:18:33,401 --> 00:18:36,363 I grew up in the Midwest, but I was born in Brooklyn. 295 00:18:36,446 --> 00:18:38,823 You do not seem like a guy from New York. 296 00:18:39,908 --> 00:18:42,077 You don't seem like a girl from Corktown. 297 00:18:45,163 --> 00:18:46,414 Buy you a drink? 298 00:18:49,834 --> 00:18:52,545 - [ROCK MUSIC PLAYING] - [VOCALIZING] 299 00:20:51,498 --> 00:20:54,042 [MUSIC CONTINUES] 300 00:21:31,871 --> 00:21:34,082 - [HOLDEN] What's your name? - Debbie. 301 00:21:37,418 --> 00:21:39,838 - You want some pot? - Is that a trick question? 302 00:21:39,921 --> 00:21:40,922 Come on. 303 00:21:41,297 --> 00:21:43,424 Are you serious? No, that's completely inappropriate. 304 00:21:43,508 --> 00:21:45,260 Come on, it's my birthday. 305 00:21:45,343 --> 00:21:47,846 Oh, Jesus, you're not gonna drink and drive, are you? 306 00:21:47,929 --> 00:21:49,389 You've been plying me with booze. 307 00:21:49,472 --> 00:21:51,766 Don't you think that's kind of a mixed message? 308 00:21:56,104 --> 00:21:57,121 You coming? 309 00:22:01,067 --> 00:22:02,944 [ENGINE STARTS] 310 00:22:07,115 --> 00:22:10,368 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 311 00:22:10,451 --> 00:22:12,579 [ROCK MUSIC PLAYS SOFTLY] 312 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:18,418 So what does a brick agent get up to in Detroit? 313 00:22:18,918 --> 00:22:20,795 Mostly corralling Army deserters. 314 00:22:21,629 --> 00:22:24,132 Guys AWOL from Vietnam trying to get to Canada. 315 00:22:25,425 --> 00:22:26,634 Too scared to go back. 316 00:22:27,302 --> 00:22:29,637 Young guys. Same age I was. 317 00:22:30,138 --> 00:22:31,723 So you were a snitch? 318 00:22:33,975 --> 00:22:35,977 There's worse things than being a snitch. 319 00:22:39,063 --> 00:22:41,649 Maybe this'll loosen you up. 320 00:22:42,984 --> 00:22:44,777 [HOLDEN EXHALES] 321 00:22:45,278 --> 00:22:46,904 God, you are making me nervous. 322 00:22:47,739 --> 00:22:49,324 You are such a goody-goody. 323 00:22:50,909 --> 00:22:52,744 What are you, some kind of honey trap? 324 00:22:53,244 --> 00:22:55,288 I've been warned to watch out for women like you. 325 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,249 You mean normal ones? 326 00:23:03,630 --> 00:23:05,340 [SIGHS] 327 00:23:05,923 --> 00:23:08,509 So just put your mouth over the hole... 328 00:23:11,346 --> 00:23:12,972 [EXHALES] Okay. [CLEARS THROAT] 329 00:23:16,976 --> 00:23:18,436 - And inhale. - [BUBBLING] 330 00:23:24,567 --> 00:23:25,652 [COUGHS] 331 00:23:25,735 --> 00:23:27,153 [COUGHING LOUDLY] 332 00:23:29,030 --> 00:23:30,323 [CONTINUES COUGHING] 333 00:23:30,406 --> 00:23:33,159 [GUNFIRE] 334 00:23:36,788 --> 00:23:38,206 [PANTING] 335 00:23:39,791 --> 00:23:42,126 [LOUD GUNFIRE] 336 00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:44,170 [MAN] I don't want to talk to somebody trying to calm me. 337 00:23:44,253 --> 00:23:46,005 - Get somebody in charge. - I am in charge! 338 00:23:46,089 --> 00:23:48,601 I don't want to talk to some flunky pig trying to calm me. 339 00:23:48,602 --> 00:23:49,884 What's he doing? 340 00:23:49,967 --> 00:23:52,095 - Will you get back over there? - What are they there for? 341 00:23:52,178 --> 00:23:54,806 Will you get the fuck back? Get back there, will ya? 342 00:23:54,889 --> 00:23:56,224 - Look at him! - Get over there! 343 00:23:56,307 --> 00:23:58,935 - Go back there, man! - Get over there, will ya? 344 00:23:59,018 --> 00:24:01,979 He wants to kill me so bad, he can taste it! All right? 345 00:24:02,063 --> 00:24:04,691 Attica! Attica! Attica! 346 00:24:05,733 --> 00:24:08,903 - Attica! Attica! - [CROWD CHEERING] 347 00:24:08,986 --> 00:24:12,031 Attica! Attica! Attica! 348 00:24:12,115 --> 00:24:15,743 [MAN] I was so confused, I was doing insane things. 349 00:24:17,286 --> 00:24:18,705 What sort of things, Leon? 350 00:24:23,626 --> 00:24:24,752 After the wedding... 351 00:24:26,087 --> 00:24:28,506 I ran off for ten days to Atlantic City. 352 00:24:30,007 --> 00:24:31,551 Sonny was frantic. 353 00:24:32,301 --> 00:24:33,594 He knew I'd been drinking, 354 00:24:33,678 --> 00:24:36,013 he didn't know where I was, who I was with. 355 00:24:37,598 --> 00:24:40,351 [STUTTERING] Well, I couldn't explain the things I did. 356 00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:42,895 So I went to a psychiatrist... 357 00:24:43,563 --> 00:24:44,689 who told me... 358 00:24:45,815 --> 00:24:49,277 that I was a woman trapped in a man's body. 359 00:24:56,451 --> 00:24:58,703 [HOLDEN] So they were both homosexuals, 360 00:24:58,786 --> 00:25:00,037 but he was married, 361 00:25:00,121 --> 00:25:03,833 and his boyfriend wanted to become a woman, which is confusing. 362 00:25:03,916 --> 00:25:06,335 - You really gotta get out more, Holden. - It was mixed up. 363 00:25:06,419 --> 00:25:09,046 - You didn't like it? - No, I really liked it. 364 00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:11,799 It was just so... sad. 365 00:25:11,883 --> 00:25:15,344 He was obviously very disturbed, but somehow I liked him. 366 00:25:15,428 --> 00:25:17,638 - Yeah, you have empathy. - Yeah. 367 00:25:18,389 --> 00:25:19,474 Empathy. 368 00:25:20,016 --> 00:25:22,810 I really liked the dialogue. It was just very real. 369 00:25:22,894 --> 00:25:24,187 When I started at the Academy, 370 00:25:24,270 --> 00:25:27,148 they would send women out of the room if there was any of that talk. 371 00:25:27,231 --> 00:25:29,484 They called it "deviant terminology." 372 00:25:29,567 --> 00:25:31,819 We even had a list of words we had to memorize. 373 00:25:31,903 --> 00:25:33,613 Really? Which words? 374 00:25:34,989 --> 00:25:36,032 You know... 375 00:25:36,115 --> 00:25:39,494 fuck, shit, pussy... blow job. 376 00:25:41,579 --> 00:25:42,613 Oh, fuck. 377 00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:44,056 Shit. 378 00:25:45,166 --> 00:25:46,167 [BOTH MOANING] 379 00:25:46,667 --> 00:25:48,085 Finger my pussy. 380 00:25:49,921 --> 00:25:52,131 Finger my pussy, I'll give you a blow job. 381 00:25:52,632 --> 00:25:54,801 [DEBBIE LAUGHS] 382 00:25:55,885 --> 00:25:57,845 All the bad words used in a sentence. 383 00:26:02,892 --> 00:26:05,603 [MOANING] 384 00:26:06,395 --> 00:26:08,397 [MAN] It's classic he said-she said. 385 00:26:08,481 --> 00:26:10,464 He says she hit her head on the bedpost 386 00:26:10,465 --> 00:26:12,485 having consensual sexual intercourse. 387 00:26:12,568 --> 00:26:13,820 She says he knocked her out 388 00:26:13,903 --> 00:26:16,155 and dragged her into this motel room to rape her. 389 00:26:16,239 --> 00:26:18,518 We know she didn't hit her head on that bedpost 390 00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:20,201 because we've measured. 391 00:26:20,284 --> 00:26:22,078 [SHEPARD] Where do you propose you would go? 392 00:26:22,161 --> 00:26:24,080 University of Virginia in Charlottesville. 393 00:26:24,163 --> 00:26:25,164 Studying what? 394 00:26:25,248 --> 00:26:28,709 Contemporary Applied Criminal Psychology. Ratchet things up a notch. 395 00:26:28,793 --> 00:26:30,795 What exactly is it you think you're missing out on? 396 00:26:30,878 --> 00:26:32,713 We need to know the current academic thinking. 397 00:26:32,797 --> 00:26:34,757 No, you don't want to rely on academics, Holden. 398 00:26:34,841 --> 00:26:37,260 I'm not saying rely, just get updated. 399 00:26:37,343 --> 00:26:38,678 We just got updated. 400 00:26:38,761 --> 00:26:42,014 It's all in the library. 1972, everything was new. 401 00:26:42,098 --> 00:26:43,808 That was five years ago. 402 00:26:44,976 --> 00:26:46,310 What's the thinking now? 403 00:26:46,394 --> 00:26:47,603 Okay, look. 404 00:26:48,563 --> 00:26:51,107 There have been some fine psychological studies over the years, 405 00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:54,735 but these are people who don't understand the criminal mind. 406 00:26:54,819 --> 00:26:56,631 They understand their corner of the world, 407 00:26:56,632 --> 00:26:58,156 which is a very small corner. 408 00:26:58,239 --> 00:27:00,575 Well, they must know something. 409 00:27:05,329 --> 00:27:06,789 I'm going to level with you. 410 00:27:08,082 --> 00:27:11,419 I'm going to tell you something I really don't want you to repeat. 411 00:27:12,128 --> 00:27:17,216 As far as the Bureau is concerned, psychology is for backroom boys. 412 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:20,511 - [CHIME SOUNDS] - You understand what I'm trying to say? 413 00:27:22,305 --> 00:27:24,015 No. What's a "backroom boy"? 414 00:27:25,808 --> 00:27:27,351 It's just frowned upon. 415 00:27:29,687 --> 00:27:31,772 We should be using every resource we can. 416 00:27:33,357 --> 00:27:34,765 Talking to the smartest people we find 417 00:27:34,766 --> 00:27:36,861 from the broadest possible spectrum. 418 00:27:36,944 --> 00:27:39,405 - And we do. - Otherwise, it's like the military. 419 00:27:39,488 --> 00:27:41,991 - Hey, we recruited Elvis. - So did the military. 420 00:27:42,074 --> 00:27:43,826 The King doesn't do it for you? 421 00:27:43,910 --> 00:27:45,995 Hoover died over five years ago, 422 00:27:46,078 --> 00:27:49,916 and we're still recruiting accountants and lawyers like it's 1946. 423 00:27:49,999 --> 00:27:52,168 Actually, recruitment has tapered off. 424 00:27:52,251 --> 00:27:55,296 - We can't get accountants. - Well, then we're in trouble. 425 00:27:56,088 --> 00:27:58,382 [SIGHS] All right. I'll scratch your back 426 00:27:58,466 --> 00:28:00,676 and recommend funding for you to audit a few classes, 427 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,055 but you will be expected to use the opportunity for recruitment. 428 00:28:04,972 --> 00:28:06,933 Speakers, lecturers, great minds. 429 00:28:07,016 --> 00:28:10,561 - Are you sure you want me doing that? - You're smart, you're idealistic... 430 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:11,938 more than a little sensitive. 431 00:28:12,521 --> 00:28:13,689 They're gonna love you. 432 00:28:30,915 --> 00:28:33,292 [BELL TOLLING] 433 00:28:37,838 --> 00:28:40,341 - Hare Krishna. - Hare Krishna. 434 00:28:41,592 --> 00:28:44,345 - Hare Krishna. - [MAN] And then, in 1872, 435 00:28:44,428 --> 00:28:49,308 Italian physician Cesare Lombroso drags us out of the Dark Ages 436 00:28:49,392 --> 00:28:52,103 and launches the scientific era in criminology 437 00:28:52,770 --> 00:28:56,107 by differentiating five criminal classes: 438 00:28:58,025 --> 00:28:59,318 the born criminal, 439 00:29:00,444 --> 00:29:01,946 insane criminal, 440 00:29:02,822 --> 00:29:04,448 criminal by passion, 441 00:29:05,491 --> 00:29:06,909 habitual criminal, 442 00:29:07,285 --> 00:29:09,954 and the occasional criminal. 443 00:29:10,037 --> 00:29:12,665 In other words, there are those that are born that way 444 00:29:13,165 --> 00:29:15,459 and those who become that way. 445 00:29:15,543 --> 00:29:17,461 And in 1965, there's this other breakthrough. 446 00:29:17,545 --> 00:29:19,380 This criminal psychology research project 447 00:29:19,463 --> 00:29:23,301 at Bellevue psychiatric hospital in New York couched it like this: 448 00:29:23,384 --> 00:29:26,304 personality and character 449 00:29:26,387 --> 00:29:30,725 far outweigh the presence of psychotic or defective diagnoses. 450 00:29:30,808 --> 00:29:33,561 In other words, by extrapolation... 451 00:29:34,395 --> 00:29:35,855 are criminals born... 452 00:29:37,356 --> 00:29:39,150 or are they formed? 453 00:30:00,004 --> 00:30:01,172 Do you mind if I sit? 454 00:30:01,630 --> 00:30:02,665 You're sitting. 455 00:30:06,677 --> 00:30:08,804 You know, I wasn't aware of that project at Bellevue. 456 00:30:08,888 --> 00:30:10,723 Well, you should be. 457 00:30:11,724 --> 00:30:14,435 Where I come from, criminals are always born that way. 458 00:30:14,518 --> 00:30:16,354 Some people will never stop believing that. 459 00:30:17,355 --> 00:30:18,939 - It's too easy. - It lets us off the hook. 460 00:30:19,023 --> 00:30:20,900 Well, essentially we're a puritan nation. 461 00:30:20,983 --> 00:30:24,236 We blame all our problems on a minority of bad apples. 462 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,739 What's your name again? I'm sorry. Is it Leon? 463 00:30:26,822 --> 00:30:27,982 Buchanan. [SCOFFS] 464 00:30:28,624 --> 00:30:29,700 Leo. 465 00:30:29,784 --> 00:30:30,818 Holden. 466 00:30:31,410 --> 00:30:33,537 - Holden Ford. - I know who you are. 467 00:30:34,497 --> 00:30:35,498 Everybody does. 468 00:30:35,581 --> 00:30:36,640 Yeah. 469 00:30:37,750 --> 00:30:39,752 I've noticed some of the looks I've been getting. 470 00:30:39,835 --> 00:30:42,713 Funny looks isn't a federal offense... yet. 471 00:30:43,381 --> 00:30:44,882 Yeah, they're just curious. 472 00:30:45,341 --> 00:30:46,509 Well, I'm not a spy. 473 00:30:46,926 --> 00:30:48,260 This isn't some kind of cover. 474 00:30:48,344 --> 00:30:52,139 Good. Because that... would have been a really pathetic cover. 475 00:30:53,099 --> 00:30:56,268 I'm actually an instructor too, but I'm just here to learn. 476 00:30:56,352 --> 00:30:59,230 And I'm here to talk to people like you. 477 00:30:59,313 --> 00:31:00,731 What do you want to talk about? 478 00:31:00,815 --> 00:31:03,192 I want to start a dialogue with you. 479 00:31:03,275 --> 00:31:04,443 Would be that okay? 480 00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:06,612 A dialogue about what? 481 00:31:07,154 --> 00:31:08,706 I'm an instructor in the Bureau's training 482 00:31:08,707 --> 00:31:10,908 and recruitment program out of Quantico. 483 00:31:10,991 --> 00:31:13,828 And we really need to hear from people like you. 484 00:31:13,911 --> 00:31:17,998 I'm sorry, are you trying to recruit me? 485 00:31:18,082 --> 00:31:20,751 Just to hear your perspectives and your insights. 486 00:31:23,129 --> 00:31:25,756 [LAUGHS] I understand... 487 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,843 perfectly. 488 00:31:31,345 --> 00:31:34,765 I'm sorry. You call yourself a professor of criminal psychology. 489 00:31:35,349 --> 00:31:38,310 But you won't even talk to the educational arm of the FBI? 490 00:31:38,394 --> 00:31:39,453 It's just... 491 00:31:40,271 --> 00:31:41,647 a sign of the times, man. 492 00:31:43,732 --> 00:31:46,485 - [DEBBIE]Lost your appetite? - [HOLDEN]Do these fucking hippies 493 00:31:46,569 --> 00:31:48,170 seriously believe that they're worthy 494 00:31:48,171 --> 00:31:50,281 of an enormously costly, labor-intensive 495 00:31:50,364 --> 00:31:52,199 federal surveillance operation? 496 00:31:52,283 --> 00:31:54,326 It sounds like the contempt is mutual. 497 00:31:54,702 --> 00:31:55,917 Don't you think that the traditional 498 00:31:55,918 --> 00:31:58,414 counterculture-law enforcement enmity 499 00:31:58,497 --> 00:32:00,124 is a little old hat by now? 500 00:32:00,624 --> 00:32:03,794 They'll never forgive you for putting a tail on John and Yoko. 501 00:32:04,628 --> 00:32:06,490 Frankly, I'm surprised to have aroused 502 00:32:06,491 --> 00:32:08,091 such a degree of fucking neuroses 503 00:32:08,174 --> 00:32:10,217 amongst supposedly intelligent people. 504 00:32:10,301 --> 00:32:12,595 Please, they're flattering themselves. 505 00:32:15,181 --> 00:32:17,057 [WHISPERS] They think you're wearing a wire. 506 00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:22,313 There. You're one of us now. 507 00:32:22,396 --> 00:32:26,150 Okay, everything's all right. Come on. Right. Yeah. Okay. 508 00:32:28,277 --> 00:32:30,154 - Come on out, Sonny. - They're too close! 509 00:32:30,237 --> 00:32:32,865 Come on, get back! What the fuck are you doing? Get back! 510 00:32:32,948 --> 00:32:33,968 Get them back. 511 00:32:33,991 --> 00:32:35,868 - Get back, okay? - Come here. 512 00:32:36,577 --> 00:32:37,870 Come on out. 513 00:32:37,953 --> 00:32:40,080 Now take a look at this. Come on. 514 00:32:40,623 --> 00:32:42,374 Hey, look. Look up here. Look. 515 00:32:43,626 --> 00:32:44,685 Look. 516 00:32:45,586 --> 00:32:47,171 Look over here. Huh? 517 00:32:51,967 --> 00:32:54,428 Over there. Look. You got everything here, okay? 518 00:33:04,563 --> 00:33:07,107 Okay. So what are they doing wrong? 519 00:33:07,691 --> 00:33:10,778 - They're making him mad. - They're making him scared. 520 00:33:11,237 --> 00:33:14,990 - So? - We do not want him scared. 521 00:33:15,074 --> 00:33:17,660 We want him calm. 522 00:33:17,743 --> 00:33:20,454 [FILM REEL PLAYING IN FAST SPEED] 523 00:33:23,874 --> 00:33:25,229 Let me call and see what they say. 524 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:27,920 I'll talk to them and ask, all right? 525 00:33:28,003 --> 00:33:30,047 Then we'll see. Anything else I can give you? 526 00:33:34,093 --> 00:33:36,512 Yeah, I want you to bring my wife down here. 527 00:33:37,429 --> 00:33:38,806 Okay, what do you give us? 528 00:33:39,056 --> 00:33:40,057 What do you want? 529 00:33:42,393 --> 00:33:46,981 The guy is robbing a bank to pay for a sex change for his boyfriend. 530 00:33:47,064 --> 00:33:49,400 He wants a helicopter with a piano. 531 00:33:49,942 --> 00:33:53,487 But more than anything, he wants to talk to his wife. 532 00:33:55,281 --> 00:33:57,700 - Complicated, right? - [MAN] Yeah. 533 00:33:58,117 --> 00:33:59,451 [HOLDEN] Trust me on this. 534 00:34:00,286 --> 00:34:03,747 Always expect complicated. 535 00:34:03,831 --> 00:34:05,457 Okay, I need you to concentrate. 536 00:34:05,541 --> 00:34:08,919 Think of an opening salvo, then think where it could lead. 537 00:34:09,587 --> 00:34:10,921 No right or wrong answers, 538 00:34:11,005 --> 00:34:13,924 just use your imagination and see where it takes you. 539 00:34:14,383 --> 00:34:16,176 Start whenever you like. Go ahead. 540 00:34:19,054 --> 00:34:21,932 All right. I'm asking you to put the gun down, Mike. 541 00:34:22,016 --> 00:34:23,892 No way. Kiss my black ass, Mark. 542 00:34:23,976 --> 00:34:25,269 Wait, what? 543 00:34:25,811 --> 00:34:28,772 For the purpose of this exercise, I'm imagining I'm Negro. 544 00:34:30,482 --> 00:34:32,537 That's good. That's fine. Keep it going. 545 00:34:32,538 --> 00:34:34,320 Just whatever comes into your head. 546 00:34:35,446 --> 00:34:36,447 [MARK] Okay. 547 00:34:37,114 --> 00:34:39,116 Then fuck you! I asked you to put that gun down. 548 00:34:39,658 --> 00:34:41,577 No, fuck you, you dumb cracker motherfucker. 549 00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:43,329 Wait, wait a minute. What is all that? 550 00:34:43,412 --> 00:34:44,538 It's jive talk. 551 00:34:44,622 --> 00:34:46,874 We don't need to get into that. Forget vernacular. 552 00:34:46,957 --> 00:34:49,335 In real life, people just press their demands. 553 00:34:49,418 --> 00:34:50,436 All right? 554 00:34:51,420 --> 00:34:52,671 Um... [CLEARS THROAT] 555 00:34:53,797 --> 00:34:56,216 Uh... put the gun down, Steve. 556 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,511 We brought your children to see you. 557 00:34:59,595 --> 00:35:00,634 You what? 558 00:35:00,638 --> 00:35:05,643 Oh, my God. I lost custody. I haven't seen my children in years. 559 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:07,886 [HOLDEN] Okay, good. 560 00:35:08,729 --> 00:35:10,473 Important not to talk to a divorced man 561 00:35:10,474 --> 00:35:12,650 about his children. Different tactic. 562 00:35:15,319 --> 00:35:18,489 All right, I asked nicely. Now put the fucking gun down. 563 00:35:18,572 --> 00:35:20,491 - Why don't you make me, faggot? - [MARK] What?! 564 00:35:20,949 --> 00:35:22,284 I'm no faggot, motherfucker! 565 00:35:22,368 --> 00:35:24,745 Okay, let's dial it back a little. 566 00:35:24,828 --> 00:35:26,830 Excuse me. What is the point of this? 567 00:35:26,914 --> 00:35:28,165 [HOLDEN] Great question. 568 00:35:28,248 --> 00:35:30,834 Psychologically preparing you for reality. 569 00:35:30,918 --> 00:35:33,295 And the reality is, you have to talk to them. 570 00:35:33,379 --> 00:35:36,048 Somebody demands the impossible, you can't just shoot him. 571 00:35:36,131 --> 00:35:37,758 Then why have so much firearms training? 572 00:35:37,841 --> 00:35:40,844 Well, because that is a tactical response for when all else fails. 573 00:35:40,928 --> 00:35:43,055 But if local law enforcement can't shut something down, 574 00:35:43,138 --> 00:35:45,641 then it has required a tactical response. 575 00:35:45,724 --> 00:35:48,143 Okay, but wouldn't you like to try something different? 576 00:35:48,352 --> 00:35:51,021 Or would you rather use firearms all the time? 577 00:35:52,606 --> 00:35:55,025 - I'd kind of rather use firearms. - Why? 578 00:35:56,610 --> 00:35:57,669 Seems safer? 579 00:35:58,070 --> 00:36:00,406 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 580 00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:04,618 Holden, I enjoyed that immensely. What do you call that? 581 00:36:04,702 --> 00:36:07,621 It's just role-playing in a simulated hostage situation. 582 00:36:07,705 --> 00:36:09,248 - Stimulated? - Simulated. 583 00:36:09,331 --> 00:36:11,625 All that profanity, is that an academic thing? 584 00:36:11,709 --> 00:36:14,169 They're improvising. They're learning to create a dialogue. 585 00:36:14,253 --> 00:36:16,255 How is all that cursing creating a dialogue? 586 00:36:16,338 --> 00:36:17,798 It's not really about the cursing. 587 00:36:17,881 --> 00:36:20,968 I'm sure it's all quite modern and fashionable in academic circles, 588 00:36:21,051 --> 00:36:23,178 but it seems very theatrical to me. 589 00:36:23,262 --> 00:36:25,139 Well, in criminal psych, role-playing exercises 590 00:36:25,222 --> 00:36:27,933 are considered a valuable tool, with or without the cursing. 591 00:36:28,016 --> 00:36:30,728 I think we have enough exercises here at the Academy. 592 00:36:31,228 --> 00:36:33,147 If you're going to start implementing new ones, 593 00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:35,190 talk to somebody in the Behavioral Science Unit. 594 00:36:35,191 --> 00:36:36,191 They can help? 595 00:36:36,191 --> 00:36:39,361 They can go over the soundness of the psychology. That's their thing. 596 00:36:39,445 --> 00:36:40,821 Okay, good idea. 597 00:36:40,904 --> 00:36:42,990 - Why don't I set that up? - Okay. 598 00:36:43,073 --> 00:36:44,616 Thank you, yes. 599 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,244 [CHATTERING] 600 00:37:01,300 --> 00:37:03,427 Holden, right? Holden Ford? 601 00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:04,510 Hi. 602 00:37:04,553 --> 00:37:06,430 Bill Tench. Behavioral Science. 603 00:37:06,513 --> 00:37:08,182 Oh, great to meet you. 604 00:37:08,766 --> 00:37:11,518 - You had a beer with Peter Rathman? - Interesting guy. 605 00:37:12,019 --> 00:37:14,772 I was kind of disturbed by what he said. 606 00:37:14,855 --> 00:37:15,873 You were, huh? 607 00:37:16,899 --> 00:37:19,485 - Can we sit? - Yes. Please. 608 00:37:25,741 --> 00:37:28,243 - Smoke? - Oh, uh... 609 00:37:28,327 --> 00:37:29,787 I don't smoke when I eat. 610 00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:31,121 Want to go outside? 611 00:37:32,748 --> 00:37:34,583 I don't smoke when I don't eat either. 612 00:37:38,879 --> 00:37:41,173 So did Shepard talk to you about my thing? 613 00:37:41,423 --> 00:37:42,466 He did his best. 614 00:37:43,467 --> 00:37:44,468 What does that mean? 615 00:37:45,177 --> 00:37:47,721 - He can be pretty old school. - [SCOFFS] 616 00:37:49,264 --> 00:37:52,726 I call this place "the country club," because, you know, 617 00:37:52,810 --> 00:37:54,728 it can be a little starchy sometimes. 618 00:37:55,604 --> 00:37:56,855 I hear that. 619 00:37:57,272 --> 00:37:58,607 - [CLATTERING] - [APPLAUSE] 620 00:37:58,690 --> 00:38:00,275 You went back to college, right? 621 00:38:00,901 --> 00:38:01,902 UVA. 622 00:38:02,903 --> 00:38:04,863 How old are you, 26, 27? 623 00:38:04,947 --> 00:38:06,006 Twenty-nine. 624 00:38:06,990 --> 00:38:08,075 That's interesting. 625 00:38:08,575 --> 00:38:10,369 Lot of guys your age don't want to go back to school 626 00:38:10,452 --> 00:38:13,038 because they feel it undermines their authority. 627 00:38:13,664 --> 00:38:16,416 I was hoping it would give me some authority. 628 00:38:17,584 --> 00:38:19,211 He's got you doing recruitment, right? 629 00:38:19,294 --> 00:38:23,757 Yeah, well, I'm there, so I might as well make myself useful. 630 00:38:24,883 --> 00:38:26,885 Most guys don't want to get stuck doing recruitment. 631 00:38:26,969 --> 00:38:28,971 They're busy working their way upwards. 632 00:38:29,513 --> 00:38:31,723 I guess I'm busy working my way sideways. 633 00:38:32,724 --> 00:38:35,978 You are what they call a "blue flamer." You know what that is? 634 00:38:37,479 --> 00:38:38,564 No. What does that mean? 635 00:38:38,647 --> 00:38:39,940 You're so eager to do good, 636 00:38:40,023 --> 00:38:42,943 you have a big, blue flame shooting out of your asshole. 637 00:38:43,777 --> 00:38:46,697 Oh... is that bad? 638 00:38:47,114 --> 00:38:49,658 Just take it slow. You'll get there in the end. 639 00:38:51,702 --> 00:38:53,954 I'm just trying to be a better instructor. 640 00:38:55,831 --> 00:38:58,542 Right. Well, I was thinking about that. 641 00:38:59,710 --> 00:39:01,545 I started this thing a couple of years ago. 642 00:39:01,628 --> 00:39:04,715 I go on the road and give classes in various police departments 643 00:39:04,798 --> 00:39:07,551 from Buffalo, New York to San Diego, California. 644 00:39:08,010 --> 00:39:10,470 There's a million cops out there who want to know what we know. 645 00:39:10,971 --> 00:39:14,057 So I go to them, give them a distillation of what we teach here, 646 00:39:14,141 --> 00:39:15,726 and they tell me what they've been doing. 647 00:39:15,809 --> 00:39:16,894 They learn something, 648 00:39:16,977 --> 00:39:20,355 and I learn something firsthand by getting involved on their level. 649 00:39:21,023 --> 00:39:22,399 But it's a big job, you know? 650 00:39:22,482 --> 00:39:24,651 I'm up to my neck in local law enforcement. 651 00:39:27,446 --> 00:39:29,031 Would you want some help with that? 652 00:39:31,575 --> 00:39:33,076 Maybe we could help each other. 653 00:39:36,622 --> 00:39:40,417 [MOANING, PANTING] 654 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,340 What? 655 00:39:46,423 --> 00:39:47,499 Nothing. 656 00:39:52,137 --> 00:39:53,597 Don't be shy. 657 00:39:54,097 --> 00:39:55,223 Did you orgasm? 658 00:39:55,307 --> 00:39:56,725 Did I orgasm? 659 00:39:56,808 --> 00:39:57,809 What? 660 00:39:58,393 --> 00:40:01,855 - I can't believe you're from New York. - You could be faking, right? 661 00:40:02,105 --> 00:40:03,941 You can't tell if a woman is faking? 662 00:40:04,024 --> 00:40:06,193 I can't even tell if a woman is interested. 663 00:40:06,860 --> 00:40:09,988 But you can tell if somebody's lying, like a suspect. 664 00:40:10,072 --> 00:40:11,782 That is not the same thing. 665 00:40:11,865 --> 00:40:13,742 - Pretend I'm a suspect. - [SCOFFS] 666 00:40:13,825 --> 00:40:16,328 Use your powers of deduction, Agent Ford. 667 00:40:16,411 --> 00:40:17,454 [SIGHS] 668 00:40:17,537 --> 00:40:19,012 How can you figure out the criminal mind 669 00:40:19,013 --> 00:40:21,291 if you can't figure out your girlfriend? 670 00:40:22,709 --> 00:40:23,961 Are you my girlfriend? 671 00:40:24,378 --> 00:40:27,881 Wait. Is this another of those things you just can't tell? 672 00:40:28,423 --> 00:40:30,634 I don't know. Are you? 673 00:40:31,218 --> 00:40:33,804 What do you need, an exchange of rings over milkshakes? 674 00:40:33,887 --> 00:40:35,806 I just didn't want to presume anything. 675 00:40:36,264 --> 00:40:38,684 Really, Holden, sometimes you're like a monk. 676 00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:42,604 Surely people in law enforcement shouldn't be so naive. 677 00:40:42,688 --> 00:40:44,272 Does it make you uncomfortable... 678 00:40:45,565 --> 00:40:47,067 sleeping with a federal agent? 679 00:40:47,150 --> 00:40:48,735 [LAUGHS] 680 00:40:49,820 --> 00:40:51,238 Where did that come from? 681 00:40:53,782 --> 00:40:55,117 Does it turn you on? 682 00:40:56,660 --> 00:40:57,828 Not at all. 683 00:41:03,125 --> 00:41:04,501 Then why are you with me? 684 00:41:05,836 --> 00:41:07,337 You're smart. 685 00:41:09,965 --> 00:41:11,508 You're nice. 686 00:41:12,384 --> 00:41:13,593 [MUTTERS] Okay. 687 00:41:14,761 --> 00:41:16,930 What? Those are good things. 688 00:41:19,766 --> 00:41:21,852 And you're devastating. 689 00:41:21,935 --> 00:41:23,270 [HOLDEN CHUCKLES] 690 00:41:23,353 --> 00:41:24,479 Well, thank you. 691 00:41:25,272 --> 00:41:26,690 Oh, come on, you're not leaving. 692 00:41:27,941 --> 00:41:29,317 I have to get up early. 693 00:41:29,901 --> 00:41:31,611 Tomorrow's the first day of school. 694 00:41:32,195 --> 00:41:34,489 [MAN ON RADIO] Ninety-nine plus KFMH, 695 00:41:34,490 --> 00:41:37,951 Muscatine, Davenport in Iowa Central... 696 00:41:38,035 --> 00:41:40,203 [CHANGING STATIONS] 697 00:41:41,413 --> 00:41:44,875 [TOTO'S "HOLD THE LINE" PLAYING] 698 00:41:48,962 --> 00:41:50,047 ♪ Hold the line ♪ 699 00:41:53,884 --> 00:41:56,720 [TENCH] Today might be a baptism of fire. They're gonna be on edge. 700 00:41:56,803 --> 00:41:58,388 - Just follow my lead. - What happened? 701 00:41:58,805 --> 00:42:00,932 They caught a big case and they're spooked. 702 00:42:01,016 --> 00:42:02,476 Don't talk to any reporters. 703 00:42:03,185 --> 00:42:06,271 And please, for God's sake, don't say we're from the FBI. 704 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:13,487 ♪ It's not in the words ♪ ♪ That you told me, girl ♪ 705 00:42:19,242 --> 00:42:22,204 Excuse me, gentlemen. I'm from the Fairfield Chronicle. 706 00:42:22,287 --> 00:42:24,414 You gentlemen are from the FBI, is that right? 707 00:42:24,498 --> 00:42:26,083 How are things with the Jeffries case? 708 00:42:26,166 --> 00:42:27,793 No idea what you're talking about. 709 00:42:27,876 --> 00:42:29,461 The Jeffries case. Ada Jeffries. 710 00:42:29,544 --> 00:42:32,631 - You can come back for the rest. - The woman found behind the church. 711 00:42:32,714 --> 00:42:35,300 - We're here for something else. - The woman and her little boy. 712 00:42:35,383 --> 00:42:36,760 We're instructors. 713 00:42:36,843 --> 00:42:38,303 Are you from the Methodist church? 714 00:42:38,386 --> 00:42:40,388 Do we look like we're from the Methodist church? 715 00:42:40,472 --> 00:42:41,531 Yes. 716 00:42:41,973 --> 00:42:42,974 Make a hole. 717 00:42:44,559 --> 00:42:45,727 Good to see ya. 718 00:42:46,937 --> 00:42:49,147 [TENCH] Motive, means, opportunity. 719 00:42:49,231 --> 00:42:52,609 The three pillars of criminal investigation for the last century. 720 00:42:53,193 --> 00:42:56,738 But it's 1977, and suddenly motive is elusive. 721 00:42:58,406 --> 00:42:59,783 What, why, who. 722 00:43:00,325 --> 00:43:03,203 "What happened?" "Why did it happen that way?" 723 00:43:03,286 --> 00:43:05,122 Which should lead to: "Who did it?" 724 00:43:06,164 --> 00:43:09,292 A person is murdered. Not sexually assaulted, not robbed. 725 00:43:09,668 --> 00:43:11,711 But the body is mutilated posthumously. 726 00:43:12,212 --> 00:43:14,881 The question is not only why did the killer do it, 727 00:43:14,965 --> 00:43:17,050 but why did the killer do it this way? 728 00:43:18,135 --> 00:43:22,222 We are now talking about... psychology. 729 00:43:25,267 --> 00:43:28,228 [CLEARS THROAT] When I'm involved in a hostage negotiation, 730 00:43:28,311 --> 00:43:30,564 the perpetrator is standing right in front of me, 731 00:43:30,647 --> 00:43:33,900 but I have to gauge how much destruction he's capable of, 732 00:43:34,401 --> 00:43:36,767 what in his background or personal life 733 00:43:36,768 --> 00:43:38,665 that could've triggered today's standoff. 734 00:43:38,738 --> 00:43:40,282 Some people are just crazy, right? 735 00:43:40,824 --> 00:43:42,993 Crazy in that they have no reason for what they do? 736 00:43:43,076 --> 00:43:44,411 - Yeah. - [HOLDEN] Okay. 737 00:43:44,494 --> 00:43:46,305 But keep in mind, often, this crazy person 738 00:43:46,306 --> 00:43:48,955 has never done anything like this before. 739 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,834 Something just... flips. 740 00:43:51,418 --> 00:43:53,295 - Like a switch. - Good, a switch. 741 00:43:53,795 --> 00:43:55,255 Anybody know what flips it? 742 00:43:56,214 --> 00:43:58,508 - Getting fired? - Fired. Yes. 743 00:43:58,592 --> 00:43:59,968 - Getting dumped. - [HOLDEN] Absolutely. 744 00:44:00,051 --> 00:44:02,262 A romantic breakup is a top trigger. 745 00:44:02,762 --> 00:44:06,558 When we know who the criminal is, we can understand what set him off. 746 00:44:06,641 --> 00:44:08,852 In a homicide situation, we do the inverse. 747 00:44:09,269 --> 00:44:13,607 We ask, "What happened? Why did it happen that way?" 748 00:44:13,690 --> 00:44:15,817 Which narrows the search for who did it. 749 00:44:16,318 --> 00:44:19,613 But what if our killer is someone who's not rational? 750 00:44:26,286 --> 00:44:28,205 Why do we behave the way we do? 751 00:44:29,748 --> 00:44:33,835 It's a question asked by poets, and philosophers, and theologians 752 00:44:33,919 --> 00:44:35,545 since time immemorial. 753 00:44:35,962 --> 00:44:39,799 The playground of Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, Freud. 754 00:44:39,883 --> 00:44:41,516 The stuff of Crime and Punishment 755 00:44:41,517 --> 00:44:43,470 and Beyond the Pleasure Principal. 756 00:44:44,721 --> 00:44:45,883 The greatest minds in history 757 00:44:45,884 --> 00:44:48,975 have been fascinated by the vagaries of behavior. 758 00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:54,342 So, in a case where we can't immediately 759 00:44:54,343 --> 00:44:56,524 divine a motive, we shouldn't panic. 760 00:44:57,233 --> 00:44:59,069 It's a riddle, but it can be solved. 761 00:44:59,152 --> 00:45:03,031 It's complex, but... it's human. 762 00:45:05,325 --> 00:45:07,327 - [QUIET MUTTERING] - Thank you, Holden. 763 00:45:08,495 --> 00:45:10,538 That was very... illuminating. 764 00:45:10,622 --> 00:45:13,583 [QUIET LAUGHTER, CHATTER] 765 00:45:13,667 --> 00:45:16,211 So what the hell's Beyond the Pleasure Principle? 766 00:45:16,294 --> 00:45:19,130 - By Freud? - [MAN] So this is about sex? 767 00:45:19,214 --> 00:45:21,800 Actually, it's where he looks for human impulses beyond sex, 768 00:45:21,883 --> 00:45:23,927 - specifically the death drive. - [MAN 2] What's that? 769 00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:26,972 - Something my kid does with a stick shift. - [LAUGHTER] 770 00:45:27,055 --> 00:45:29,516 Freud suggests that there's an innate desire for destruction, 771 00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:31,893 based on the propensity for matter to return... 772 00:45:31,977 --> 00:45:33,937 - What does this have to do with motive? - [HOLDEN] Well... 773 00:45:34,354 --> 00:45:38,358 we've always looked at motive as need or greed, right? 774 00:45:38,441 --> 00:45:41,319 - Guy steals a TV to sell it to buy drugs. - [HOLDEN] Exactly. 775 00:45:41,403 --> 00:45:44,406 But let's say, while he's at it, he steals your wife's panties, too. 776 00:45:44,489 --> 00:45:46,199 If he stole my wife's panties, I'd be amazed. 777 00:45:46,282 --> 00:45:48,827 - [LAUGHTER] - [HOLDEN] Well, he's not selling those. 778 00:45:48,910 --> 00:45:51,204 So why does he do it? Is it merely prurient? 779 00:45:51,287 --> 00:45:53,790 He could be motivated by something he doesn't even understand. 780 00:45:53,873 --> 00:45:56,126 Our new quest, like Freud, 781 00:45:56,209 --> 00:45:59,796 is to look beyond what we assume are obvious impulses. 782 00:45:59,879 --> 00:46:01,548 So why didn't you just say that? 783 00:46:06,261 --> 00:46:09,431 [HOLDEN]They don't want to learn. What are we even doing here? 784 00:46:09,681 --> 00:46:11,558 [TENCH] Don't make it too complicated. 785 00:46:11,808 --> 00:46:13,018 What's wrong with complicated? 786 00:46:13,101 --> 00:46:15,979 There's complicated and there's too complicated, Holden. 787 00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:22,110 We used to do this experiment in social psychology. 788 00:46:22,652 --> 00:46:23,987 Uh-huh. What was that? 789 00:46:24,362 --> 00:46:27,991 You get onto a crowded elevator, and you face the opposite direction, 790 00:46:28,074 --> 00:46:31,578 the back of the elevator, and everybody freaks out. 791 00:46:32,078 --> 00:46:35,415 They're uncomfortable for reasons they can't even articulate. 792 00:46:36,499 --> 00:46:40,837 But if you turn around and face the front, everybody relaxes. 793 00:46:41,421 --> 00:46:44,049 Okay. Well, how do we do that? 794 00:46:46,968 --> 00:46:48,344 What do we have in common? 795 00:46:50,472 --> 00:46:51,681 What unites us? 796 00:46:53,683 --> 00:46:56,561 What keeps us all awake at night? 797 00:47:00,398 --> 00:47:04,194 - [ALL GROANING] - Monster. Right? 798 00:47:05,153 --> 00:47:06,571 I think we can all agree. 799 00:47:08,656 --> 00:47:10,492 But what do you really know about him? 800 00:47:11,367 --> 00:47:14,079 Did you know that his mother was a jailbird and a prostitute? 801 00:47:14,454 --> 00:47:16,122 Did you know when he was ten years old, 802 00:47:16,206 --> 00:47:19,042 she palmed him off onto his sadistic, Bible-thumping uncle 803 00:47:19,125 --> 00:47:20,967 who beat him within an inch of his life 804 00:47:20,968 --> 00:47:23,713 and taunted him to act like a man? 805 00:47:24,547 --> 00:47:26,508 Charles responded to that by becoming a pimp 806 00:47:26,591 --> 00:47:29,302 and an armed robber, and was incarcerated for over 20 years, 807 00:47:29,385 --> 00:47:31,387 where he continued to be brutalized. 808 00:47:31,471 --> 00:47:36,309 In 1967, he was paroled, during the Summer of Love. 809 00:47:37,102 --> 00:47:38,478 And our nightmare began. 810 00:47:39,938 --> 00:47:42,357 [ALL GROANING, CHATTERING] 811 00:47:45,985 --> 00:47:47,403 - [MAN] Jesus! - [MAN 2] Come on! 812 00:47:49,656 --> 00:47:53,034 Here we have a child who was unwanted, unloved, regularly beaten, 813 00:47:53,118 --> 00:47:54,869 and repeatedly institutionalized. 814 00:47:54,953 --> 00:47:58,998 Now, might this not have had some sort of an effect on him? 815 00:47:59,666 --> 00:48:02,085 - He was born that way. - What way? 816 00:48:02,669 --> 00:48:05,213 - [MAN] Just bad. - Can we be a little bit more specific? 817 00:48:05,296 --> 00:48:07,507 - Technically, he didn't kill anybody. - [MURMURING] 818 00:48:07,590 --> 00:48:10,927 Look at those eyes. How can you not say that dude's evil? 819 00:48:11,010 --> 00:48:14,681 That's a little bit Old Testament, don't you think? 820 00:48:14,764 --> 00:48:18,518 Good, evil, black, white, it's easy. 821 00:48:18,893 --> 00:48:21,729 But who in this room has a life that's easy? 822 00:48:22,564 --> 00:48:25,066 Circumstances affect behavior. 823 00:48:25,733 --> 00:48:27,777 When we look at Manson's background, 824 00:48:27,861 --> 00:48:31,322 the real question is, how could we not have seen this coming? 825 00:48:31,406 --> 00:48:32,465 We did. 826 00:48:32,907 --> 00:48:34,075 [HOLDEN] I'm sorry? 827 00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:37,620 He was institutionalized because we could see it coming. 828 00:48:37,704 --> 00:48:40,623 Okay, but I'm saying maybe, just maybe, 829 00:48:41,166 --> 00:48:44,002 locking him up his young life helped make him what he was. 830 00:48:44,085 --> 00:48:45,795 - [MAN] No. - What the fuck? 831 00:48:45,879 --> 00:48:48,256 They locked him up because of what he did. 832 00:48:48,339 --> 00:48:49,799 They already knew what he was. 833 00:48:49,883 --> 00:48:52,969 Okay, guys, I'm not asking anybody to feel sorry for Charles Manson. 834 00:48:53,052 --> 00:48:55,805 If he were here, I'd shoot him dead. No one would stop me. 835 00:48:55,806 --> 00:48:56,806 [MAN] Right. 836 00:48:56,806 --> 00:48:59,017 What Holden's trying to say is maybe it's both. 837 00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:01,269 The one impacting on the other in a vicious circle. 838 00:49:01,352 --> 00:49:03,521 Nobody has all the answers. 839 00:49:03,605 --> 00:49:06,524 - We have some answers. - We should be asking questions. 840 00:49:06,608 --> 00:49:07,859 [MAN] No shit. 841 00:49:07,942 --> 00:49:10,361 Well, I'll just tell my buddies in Robbery-Homicide 842 00:49:10,445 --> 00:49:12,697 who were there when the corpses were found, 843 00:49:12,780 --> 00:49:16,034 that they may have overlooked a difficult upbringing. 844 00:49:16,117 --> 00:49:17,493 You were LAPD? 845 00:49:17,577 --> 00:49:18,912 Twenty-two years. 846 00:49:20,163 --> 00:49:21,289 You worked Manson? 847 00:49:21,372 --> 00:49:23,583 No, but I knew every single man who did. 848 00:49:24,959 --> 00:49:26,753 How many homicides have you worked? 849 00:49:26,836 --> 00:49:28,838 [AUDIENCE MURMURING] 850 00:49:30,506 --> 00:49:33,384 Figure out who you're talking to before you tell a sob story 851 00:49:33,468 --> 00:49:35,220 about little Chuckie Manson. 852 00:49:35,303 --> 00:49:37,555 They wrote "pigs" on the wall in their victims' blood. 853 00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:39,182 They completely missed my point. 854 00:49:39,265 --> 00:49:42,560 In the future, ask if anyone's worked a case before you bring it up. 855 00:49:42,644 --> 00:49:45,480 - Know your fucking audience. - Oh, shit. 856 00:49:46,439 --> 00:49:48,733 It's okay, they always do this. 857 00:49:48,816 --> 00:49:50,568 Just be a good listener. 858 00:49:50,652 --> 00:49:51,669 Gentlemen. 859 00:49:53,238 --> 00:49:54,239 Frank McGraw. 860 00:49:55,198 --> 00:49:57,200 I didn't mean to embarrass anybody back there. 861 00:49:57,283 --> 00:49:58,409 Not a problem. 862 00:49:58,493 --> 00:50:00,578 We're all a little tense around here. 863 00:50:00,662 --> 00:50:03,346 You must have heard about the mother and child 864 00:50:03,347 --> 00:50:04,347 who were murdered recently. 865 00:50:04,415 --> 00:50:07,210 - Ada Jeffries and her boy. - We've seen reporters. 866 00:50:08,419 --> 00:50:10,004 She was bound, 867 00:50:10,088 --> 00:50:12,382 stabbed repeatedly about the chest and face. 868 00:50:13,049 --> 00:50:14,300 The boy's throat was cut. 869 00:50:14,384 --> 00:50:17,387 [GROANS] Rough one. 870 00:50:17,470 --> 00:50:21,307 I don't understand entirely what you're talking about with psychology. 871 00:50:22,684 --> 00:50:25,103 I don't understand much of anything anymore. 872 00:50:25,186 --> 00:50:26,771 What's on your mind, Frank? 873 00:50:29,065 --> 00:50:31,651 - I hate to bother. - No, by all means. Bother us. 874 00:50:38,116 --> 00:50:41,995 When I left Los Angeles, I thought I'd gone far enough. 875 00:50:44,789 --> 00:50:48,293 Ada was the kind of woman who wouldn't say boo to a goose. 876 00:50:48,835 --> 00:50:51,587 She came from a deeply religious family in Arkansas. 877 00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:54,924 When they found out she was pregnant, they put her out. 878 00:50:55,425 --> 00:50:57,969 She lived in a rooming house in Libertyville. 879 00:50:58,052 --> 00:51:02,599 No drugs, no alcohol, never had a brush with the law. 880 00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:05,518 The boy was polite and quiet. 881 00:51:06,185 --> 00:51:08,938 She had him in Sunday school at the Methodist church. 882 00:51:09,272 --> 00:51:12,442 She would sweep the steps every evening, 883 00:51:13,359 --> 00:51:14,777 just to be of service. 884 00:51:16,529 --> 00:51:17,864 I never met Ada. 885 00:51:18,581 --> 00:51:19,657 Every now and again, 886 00:51:19,741 --> 00:51:22,452 I'd see her and her son walk along the road into town. 887 00:51:23,536 --> 00:51:24,746 They didn't have a car. 888 00:51:27,457 --> 00:51:29,208 Landlady found the bodies. 889 00:51:32,253 --> 00:51:33,504 They had been dead... 890 00:51:35,715 --> 00:51:36,716 four days. 891 00:51:42,972 --> 00:51:44,807 What people won't do to each other. 892 00:51:45,975 --> 00:51:47,560 Nothing people won't do. 893 00:51:49,687 --> 00:51:50,897 How can we help? 894 00:51:53,649 --> 00:51:56,652 [MCGRAW] She was found cuffed and lashed to the bed. 895 00:51:57,278 --> 00:51:59,572 A broomstick perforated her rectum. 896 00:52:00,573 --> 00:52:02,825 Whoever it was made the boy watch, 897 00:52:04,410 --> 00:52:06,204 then did the same thing to him. 898 00:52:07,455 --> 00:52:08,498 How'd he get in? 899 00:52:08,873 --> 00:52:11,667 Bathroom window. We think that's how he came and went. 900 00:52:12,251 --> 00:52:13,711 There was no sign of forcible entry. 901 00:52:14,462 --> 00:52:16,547 - No one heard a peep. - In a rooming house? 902 00:52:16,631 --> 00:52:20,259 My assumption is, he held a knife to the boy to keep her quiet, 903 00:52:21,094 --> 00:52:22,303 and vice versa. 904 00:52:22,387 --> 00:52:24,764 This falls clearly into the category of lust murder. 905 00:52:24,847 --> 00:52:26,557 By that I mean it's sexually motivated. 906 00:52:26,641 --> 00:52:29,102 That cannot be about horny. 907 00:52:29,185 --> 00:52:30,897 It's more about sexual gratification 908 00:52:30,898 --> 00:52:32,939 through the annihilation of another. 909 00:52:33,272 --> 00:52:36,025 - Did you find semen? - Found some on a throw cushion. 910 00:52:36,109 --> 00:52:39,112 It was blood type O. I know that's not much help. 911 00:52:39,195 --> 00:52:40,947 - [TENCH] In the victims? - [MCGRAW] No. 912 00:52:41,823 --> 00:52:44,117 - He didn't rape them. - He could have problems with sex. 913 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:45,451 That'd be a good bet. 914 00:52:45,535 --> 00:52:47,161 Could narrow things with your suspects. 915 00:52:47,245 --> 00:52:48,788 I don't have suspects. 916 00:52:48,871 --> 00:52:51,833 I don't have fingerprints, shoe prints, 917 00:52:51,916 --> 00:52:53,709 not so much as a single hair. 918 00:52:54,177 --> 00:52:55,211 Well... 919 00:52:55,294 --> 00:52:57,755 The fact that the killer left nothing behind is interesting. 920 00:52:57,839 --> 00:52:59,882 It must have been premeditated to a degree. 921 00:52:59,966 --> 00:53:03,136 He had gloves, he cleaned up after himself. 922 00:53:03,219 --> 00:53:04,762 You think he was stalking her? 923 00:53:04,846 --> 00:53:07,432 - Or she just caught his eye. - What about the boy? 924 00:53:08,057 --> 00:53:09,058 He was a witness. 925 00:53:09,142 --> 00:53:11,561 There are more expedient ways to get rid of a witness. 926 00:53:11,644 --> 00:53:13,896 - Why make the boy watch? - And why sodomize him? 927 00:53:13,980 --> 00:53:15,148 [HOLDEN] That's a good point. 928 00:53:15,690 --> 00:53:18,818 Is this crime about the woman or about the child? 929 00:53:22,155 --> 00:53:25,074 - You're asking me? - I was just posing questions. 930 00:53:26,367 --> 00:53:27,785 I get that. 931 00:53:27,869 --> 00:53:29,537 - The broomstick. - Yeah? 932 00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:32,540 Is it the same broomstick she used to sweep the church steps? 933 00:53:32,623 --> 00:53:34,750 - What if it is? - He might not be a congregant, 934 00:53:34,834 --> 00:53:36,170 maybe someone just passing through, 935 00:53:36,171 --> 00:53:39,046 but the church could be significant. 936 00:53:39,047 --> 00:53:40,064 Could be? 937 00:53:40,131 --> 00:53:42,258 [HOLDEN] With the idea of service. 938 00:53:43,342 --> 00:53:47,180 I think that there's a passage in Mark. 939 00:53:47,263 --> 00:53:49,682 Something about the "Son of Man." 940 00:53:50,516 --> 00:53:51,934 I don't follow. 941 00:53:52,018 --> 00:53:54,479 [HOLDEN] All I'm saying is, the broom may mean something. 942 00:53:54,562 --> 00:53:55,563 What? 943 00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:58,232 I don't know. 944 00:53:58,316 --> 00:54:00,276 It's hard to tell from just the photos. 945 00:54:00,359 --> 00:54:01,736 [SCOFFS] 946 00:54:03,362 --> 00:54:07,533 This woman was devoted to her child, tried hard, 947 00:54:07,617 --> 00:54:09,535 and some stranger came along and... 948 00:54:11,204 --> 00:54:14,457 Come on, Agent Ford, you got fancy methods. 949 00:54:14,540 --> 00:54:18,878 What does a broomstick in the ass of a dirt poor single mom mean? 950 00:54:24,425 --> 00:54:25,593 I don't know. 951 00:54:26,302 --> 00:54:27,470 You're kidding me. 952 00:54:27,553 --> 00:54:28,721 I don't understand it. 953 00:54:29,805 --> 00:54:32,975 - We can't help you with this. - We need more time to go over this. 954 00:54:33,059 --> 00:54:37,063 We are in the dark here. We don't know any more than you do. 955 00:54:39,065 --> 00:54:40,900 How fucking dare you? 956 00:54:41,734 --> 00:54:43,402 I'm sorry we wasted your time. 957 00:54:49,700 --> 00:54:51,828 - Can I get these back to you? - [SCOFFS] 958 00:55:08,594 --> 00:55:11,973 - [DON MCLEAN'S "CRYING" PLAYING] - ♪ Crying ♪ 959 00:55:12,056 --> 00:55:14,642 ♪ Crying ♪ 960 00:55:14,725 --> 00:55:19,480 ♪ It's hard to understand ♪ 961 00:55:21,148 --> 00:55:26,571 ♪ That the touch of your hand ♪ 962 00:55:26,654 --> 00:55:28,781 ♪ Can start me crying ♪ 963 00:55:28,864 --> 00:55:30,700 - In the dark, huh? - We are. 964 00:55:30,783 --> 00:55:33,536 I have studied everything we have. I've taken this ride here, 965 00:55:33,619 --> 00:55:35,830 listened to everything you've been kind enough to teach, 966 00:55:35,913 --> 00:55:37,421 but we're talking about something 967 00:55:37,422 --> 00:55:38,749 we don't understand in the slightest. 968 00:55:38,833 --> 00:55:39,917 I was trying to help you. 969 00:55:40,001 --> 00:55:42,336 If you don't like it, go back to your college kids 970 00:55:42,420 --> 00:55:43,462 and we'll forget about it. 971 00:55:43,546 --> 00:55:44,922 Ada and her son were killed 972 00:55:45,006 --> 00:55:47,216 for reasons we are simply not equipped to understand. 973 00:55:47,300 --> 00:55:48,801 It wasn't lust murder. 974 00:55:48,884 --> 00:55:51,679 It wasn't some random thrill killer who was born bad, 975 00:55:51,762 --> 00:55:54,473 and it wasn't a pantie thief who wanted to change things up. 976 00:55:54,557 --> 00:55:55,850 It was an aberration. 977 00:55:55,933 --> 00:55:57,935 Let me tell you something about aberrant behavior. 978 00:55:58,019 --> 00:55:59,270 It's fucking aberrant. 979 00:55:59,353 --> 00:56:01,814 If we understood it, we'd be aberrant too. 980 00:56:01,897 --> 00:56:04,567 Fortunately, it's not incumbent upon us to write a dissertation. 981 00:56:04,650 --> 00:56:06,193 - Well, maybe we should. - Why? 982 00:56:07,278 --> 00:56:10,865 Our job is to give him something he could not have figured out himself. 983 00:56:10,948 --> 00:56:13,576 - I am sticking my neck out for you. - No disrespect. 984 00:56:13,659 --> 00:56:15,483 At the moment, I don't think we can say anything 985 00:56:15,484 --> 00:56:17,330 to McGraw with any certainty. 986 00:56:17,413 --> 00:56:19,540 Let me ask you something. Where are you from? 987 00:56:21,667 --> 00:56:24,545 I was born in New York, but it's kind of a mixed bag. 988 00:56:24,629 --> 00:56:27,757 Okay. Well, that's what you are right now, a mixed bag. 989 00:56:28,257 --> 00:56:30,885 A little college education, some experience on the street, 990 00:56:30,968 --> 00:56:33,095 some insight, a lot of horseshit. 991 00:56:33,179 --> 00:56:34,722 I agree with you. 992 00:56:34,805 --> 00:56:37,141 It's been one step forward, two steps back. 993 00:56:37,224 --> 00:56:39,602 Let me ask you something else. Do you have a girlfriend? 994 00:56:40,561 --> 00:56:43,022 - I do now, Bill, as it happens. - Okay. 995 00:56:43,105 --> 00:56:47,109 So next time you're a long way from home and you flip your shit, 996 00:56:47,193 --> 00:56:50,738 you find a pay phone and you tell it to your girlfriend. 997 00:56:51,489 --> 00:56:52,573 - Okay? - Okay. 998 00:56:52,657 --> 00:56:55,534 - How's that sound? - It sounds okay, Bill. 999 00:57:00,748 --> 00:57:07,213 ♪ Crying ♪ 1000 00:57:07,296 --> 00:57:13,761 ♪ Over ♪ 1001 00:57:13,844 --> 00:57:19,266 ♪ You ♪ 1002 00:57:19,267 --> 00:57:24,267 - Synced and corrected by chamallow - - www.addic7ed.com -