1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:48,979 --> 00:00:50,360 TRAINING VIDEO NARRATOR: After paper has been made, 4 00:00:50,395 --> 00:00:52,155 it's reeled up into a fiber core 5 00:00:52,190 --> 00:00:53,950 on a reel spool. 6 00:00:53,984 --> 00:00:56,056 After a roll is as large as is desired, 7 00:00:56,090 --> 00:00:58,610 a new roll is started with a second core. 8 00:00:58,644 --> 00:00:59,956 This on-the-run process 9 00:00:59,990 --> 00:01:01,682 of transferring the sheet from a finished roll 10 00:01:01,716 --> 00:01:04,857 to a new core is called a turnover. 11 00:01:04,891 --> 00:01:08,551 Here, Tom Monfils is applying a two-sided tape to the core. 12 00:01:08,585 --> 00:01:12,106 The tape is used to make the sheet stick to the core during a turnover. 13 00:01:13,211 --> 00:01:15,075 Tom is dressed for his television appearance 14 00:01:15,109 --> 00:01:17,767 with a safety breakaway paper tie. 15 00:01:20,149 --> 00:01:23,876 NARRATOR: This is the only surviving footage of Tom Monfils at work. 16 00:01:25,568 --> 00:01:28,674 Is there anything we can say about Tom based on these images? 17 00:01:32,644 --> 00:01:34,265 Was he a happy person? 18 00:01:35,198 --> 00:01:37,097 Did he feel accepted by his peers? 19 00:01:38,788 --> 00:01:40,271 What were his plans for the future? 20 00:01:44,932 --> 00:01:47,831 We'll never know the answers to these questions, 21 00:01:47,866 --> 00:01:50,800 because on November 23rd, 1992, 22 00:01:50,834 --> 00:01:53,113 a missing person search at James River Paper Mill 23 00:01:53,146 --> 00:01:55,149 in Green Bay, Wisconsin, would conclude 24 00:01:55,184 --> 00:01:56,771 with the discovery of his corpse. 25 00:02:26,215 --> 00:02:27,699 [THUNDER RUMBLING] 26 00:02:42,576 --> 00:02:44,680 [INDUSTRIAL CLATTERING] 27 00:03:24,756 --> 00:03:26,102 [BUBBLING] 28 00:03:31,003 --> 00:03:33,143 RANDY WINKLER: It appeared to be a homicide immediately. 29 00:03:36,561 --> 00:03:37,803 There was, uh... 30 00:03:38,666 --> 00:03:41,738 a large hematoma on Tom's head 31 00:03:41,773 --> 00:03:45,846 that was very evident of a blow of some sort. 32 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,849 The fact that there was a rope around his neck, 33 00:03:48,883 --> 00:03:50,575 and the weight... 34 00:03:50,609 --> 00:03:51,783 I mean... 35 00:03:53,267 --> 00:03:54,130 uh... 36 00:03:54,682 --> 00:03:57,133 There's no way that... 37 00:03:57,167 --> 00:03:59,791 that was going to be ruled anything else other than that. 38 00:04:00,757 --> 00:04:03,001 We have to go with what we have now 39 00:04:03,588 --> 00:04:04,865 as the truth. 40 00:04:05,797 --> 00:04:07,350 And the truth is that, 41 00:04:07,385 --> 00:04:09,904 you know, these six men 42 00:04:09,939 --> 00:04:12,976 are guilty of murdering Tom Monfils. 43 00:04:15,393 --> 00:04:17,015 [MYSTERIOUS MUSIC PLAYING] 44 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:22,779 [INAUDIBLE DIALOGUE] 45 00:05:45,172 --> 00:05:49,038 MIKE PIASKOWSKI: Well, I was born and raised right in Green Bay, Wisconsin. 46 00:05:49,072 --> 00:05:50,557 Just, if you want a quiet town life, 47 00:05:50,591 --> 00:05:53,180 that's a good place to live. 48 00:05:53,214 --> 00:05:55,596 Hard-working blue-collar community. 49 00:05:57,460 --> 00:05:59,980 First thing I did was I worked for the railroad. 50 00:06:00,014 --> 00:06:02,327 I worked on the section crew, 51 00:06:02,362 --> 00:06:04,156 and then I left the railroad 52 00:06:04,191 --> 00:06:07,919 and worked for an auto-glass specialist. 53 00:06:07,953 --> 00:06:10,922 And then I enlisted in the Army. 54 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:13,131 And then we came down on order for Vietnam. 55 00:06:16,514 --> 00:06:18,378 Because I didn't go on to college, 56 00:06:18,412 --> 00:06:23,141 uh, I think joining the military made me grow up. 57 00:06:24,625 --> 00:06:26,006 My girlfriend, when I went in there at the time, 58 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,146 her name was Margie Craning. 59 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:29,630 You know, when I first got out of the service and, 60 00:06:29,665 --> 00:06:32,461 you know, she was there waiting for me and... 61 00:06:34,324 --> 00:06:36,396 we started making plans to get married. 62 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,263 Actually, she got pregnant and we got married... 63 00:06:43,161 --> 00:06:44,404 quicker because of that. 64 00:06:45,957 --> 00:06:47,337 I wanted to build a house. 65 00:06:47,372 --> 00:06:50,133 I wanted to get a decent job with benefits, you know, 66 00:06:50,168 --> 00:06:52,653 the health insurance and retirement plans 67 00:06:52,688 --> 00:06:53,551 and all those things. 68 00:06:54,414 --> 00:06:56,519 Took the job that came first. 69 00:06:56,554 --> 00:06:58,418 And it just happened to be a union mill. 70 00:06:59,659 --> 00:07:03,423 Papermaking was probably the largest industry there. 71 00:07:03,457 --> 00:07:05,597 INTERVIEWER: What... What kind of paper? 72 00:07:05,632 --> 00:07:07,496 Mostly towel and tissue. 73 00:07:07,530 --> 00:07:10,533 Uh, ass wipe, [CHUCKLING] for lack of a better term. 74 00:07:17,989 --> 00:07:21,199 BRIAN KERHIN: Green Bay is the toilet-paper capital of the world. 75 00:07:21,233 --> 00:07:22,614 And the James River Paper Mill, 76 00:07:22,649 --> 00:07:26,100 it's just off of downtown, on the East side of downtown. 77 00:07:26,135 --> 00:07:28,240 These were not, um, 78 00:07:28,275 --> 00:07:30,657 mills out on the outskirts of town 79 00:07:30,691 --> 00:07:32,935 in some industrial complex. 80 00:07:32,969 --> 00:07:34,350 James River is downtown. 81 00:07:34,384 --> 00:07:36,007 It's very close to the police station. 82 00:07:36,041 --> 00:07:37,733 It's very close to the newspaper building. 83 00:07:37,767 --> 00:07:39,010 It's close to the courthouse. 84 00:07:39,044 --> 00:07:41,806 It is part of the town. 85 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,773 CAL MONFILS: And everybody knows what's going on in that mill 86 00:07:43,808 --> 00:07:47,121 whether it's... gossip or truth. 87 00:07:48,571 --> 00:07:50,677 In a sense, it was like, you know, 88 00:07:50,711 --> 00:07:52,092 hitting a lottery 89 00:07:52,126 --> 00:07:54,232 when, you know, when you were accepted and... 90 00:07:54,266 --> 00:07:55,820 and you had this job at the mill, 91 00:07:55,854 --> 00:07:57,477 because you really were set for life, 92 00:07:57,511 --> 00:08:00,825 if you were okay with doing that type of work. 93 00:08:00,859 --> 00:08:02,033 You know, it paid good benefits. 94 00:08:02,067 --> 00:08:03,931 It was a job where you could raise a family. 95 00:08:03,966 --> 00:08:07,245 If only dad worked, you could raise a family in Green Bay. 96 00:08:10,386 --> 00:08:12,595 KEITH KUTSKA: My name is Keith Kutska. 97 00:08:12,630 --> 00:08:14,148 I am one of the six defendants 98 00:08:14,183 --> 00:08:16,461 in the Tom Monfils homicide case 99 00:08:16,496 --> 00:08:19,844 from the James River Paper Mill in Green Bay. 100 00:08:19,878 --> 00:08:23,157 INTERVIEWER: How would you describe Kutska to someone who hasn't met him before? 101 00:08:24,227 --> 00:08:26,126 PIASKOWSKI: How would I describe Kutska? 102 00:08:26,713 --> 00:08:27,955 Oh. 103 00:08:27,990 --> 00:08:29,854 He looks like the Frito Bandito. 104 00:08:29,888 --> 00:08:31,234 Big, heavy mustache. 105 00:08:32,546 --> 00:08:34,548 I don't want to call him a bully, but... 106 00:08:37,793 --> 00:08:41,140 If he could tease you in any way 'cause you were... 107 00:08:41,174 --> 00:08:42,556 a little bit different than the other... 108 00:08:42,591 --> 00:08:44,420 You know, you got to pay your dues before you can get to be 109 00:08:44,454 --> 00:08:45,973 in the same level as everybody else. 110 00:08:46,008 --> 00:08:48,079 So, you... you tease somebody 111 00:08:48,113 --> 00:08:50,426 to find out what level of... where they're at. 112 00:08:52,359 --> 00:08:53,809 WINKLER: I think it was on the... 113 00:08:55,017 --> 00:08:56,328 night of November 10th. 114 00:08:56,363 --> 00:08:59,193 Kutska and another gentleman 115 00:08:59,780 --> 00:09:01,299 measured out some wire. 116 00:09:02,265 --> 00:09:03,991 One person needed 200 feet, 117 00:09:04,026 --> 00:09:05,924 and they measured out 200 feet. 118 00:09:05,959 --> 00:09:08,340 And then, Kutska needed 16 feet 119 00:09:08,375 --> 00:09:10,411 to wire something in a smokehouse. 120 00:09:11,654 --> 00:09:14,277 KUTSKA: Lots of guys often took home scrap items 121 00:09:14,312 --> 00:09:16,659 from the mill without written permission. 122 00:09:22,078 --> 00:09:24,564 WINKLER: Monfils saw that, knowing that 123 00:09:24,598 --> 00:09:28,291 if somebody got caught stealing, they'd lose their job. 124 00:09:34,021 --> 00:09:35,644 [MALE OPERATOR OVER TAPE] 125 00:09:35,678 --> 00:09:36,748 [TOM MONFILS SPEAKING] 126 00:10:34,219 --> 00:10:36,428 My brother calling... 127 00:10:36,463 --> 00:10:40,467 calling in Keith Kutska for stealing the cord. I... 128 00:10:40,501 --> 00:10:42,158 You know, that was for... that was spite. 129 00:10:42,193 --> 00:10:45,783 He was trying to get Keith Kutska in a little bit of trouble. I mean... 130 00:10:45,817 --> 00:10:48,578 Whether that little piece of scrap cord left the mill or not, 131 00:10:48,613 --> 00:10:51,271 it really didn't matter to my brother, you know? 132 00:10:53,135 --> 00:10:57,933 DENIS GULLICKSON: The mill and its workers work a swing shift, 133 00:10:57,967 --> 00:10:59,935 and it's a heavy toll. 134 00:10:59,969 --> 00:11:04,456 They were proposing to go to four 12-hour workdays. 135 00:11:04,491 --> 00:11:07,459 And, you know, obviously, like everything else, 136 00:11:07,494 --> 00:11:09,703 some guys had no opinion, you know? 137 00:11:09,738 --> 00:11:12,430 Other guys were absolutely adamant 138 00:11:12,464 --> 00:11:14,881 they had keep things the way they were. 139 00:11:14,915 --> 00:11:18,367 CAL: I believe that's probably the reason my brother made the call. 140 00:11:18,401 --> 00:11:21,784 You know? He really wanted the 12-hour shift 141 00:11:21,819 --> 00:11:25,167 where, basically, you would have more time off. 142 00:11:25,201 --> 00:11:27,652 And... and several people wanted that. 143 00:11:27,687 --> 00:11:29,896 And Keith Kutska, you know, was against it 144 00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:32,036 'cause, you know, he had been there a long time. 145 00:11:32,070 --> 00:11:33,415 He was set in his ways. 146 00:11:38,767 --> 00:11:41,459 WINKLER: Kutska goes to leave work that day, 147 00:11:41,493 --> 00:11:45,428 and the guards tell him to open his bag. 148 00:11:45,463 --> 00:11:47,223 He said, "No, I'm in a hurry." 149 00:11:47,258 --> 00:11:48,638 They said "No. You need to open your lunch box." 150 00:11:48,673 --> 00:11:50,986 "No, I'm in a hurry." And he bolts. 151 00:11:51,020 --> 00:11:52,781 He goes to work the next day 152 00:11:52,815 --> 00:11:55,611 and is called into a disciplinary meeting 153 00:11:55,645 --> 00:11:59,339 and is given four days of suspension without pay. 154 00:11:59,373 --> 00:12:01,237 KUTSKA: I was upset and dumbfounded 155 00:12:01,272 --> 00:12:03,653 that anyone in the mill would put my job 156 00:12:03,688 --> 00:12:06,346 and my family's well-being in jeopardy 157 00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:08,658 for something as common and minor 158 00:12:08,693 --> 00:12:12,145 as taking a piece of wire from a dumpster. 159 00:12:12,179 --> 00:12:14,216 I later learned that Tom himself 160 00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:16,459 had often taken items from the mill, 161 00:12:16,494 --> 00:12:19,428 very likely also without permission. 162 00:12:19,462 --> 00:12:21,775 GULLICKSON: One of the managers says 163 00:12:21,810 --> 00:12:28,748 a call came from inside the mill to the police from an hourly employee. 164 00:12:28,782 --> 00:12:33,407 And Keith Kutska now knows that someone he works with 165 00:12:34,615 --> 00:12:38,619 called the police about that wire in his bag. 166 00:12:38,654 --> 00:12:42,727 KUTSKA: I learned that the police recorded all 911 calls. 167 00:12:42,762 --> 00:12:47,111 When I called the police, they helped me get the recording. 168 00:12:47,145 --> 00:12:48,146 WINKLER: On the tape, he said, 169 00:12:48,181 --> 00:12:49,907 "I want to remain anonymous." 170 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,601 You cannot release any information 171 00:12:54,635 --> 00:12:57,431 about a person once they say that. 172 00:12:57,466 --> 00:13:00,055 A voice recording, well, it's a giveaway. 173 00:13:00,089 --> 00:13:02,540 So, he confides in the Green Bay Police Department 174 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:05,163 and the district attorney, telling 'em that, 175 00:13:05,198 --> 00:13:06,475 you know, "I called this in" 176 00:13:06,509 --> 00:13:08,788 and, you know, "The guy is coming to get the tape." 177 00:13:08,822 --> 00:13:10,790 [TOM SPEAKING] 178 00:13:13,068 --> 00:13:13,896 [MALE OPERATOR SPEAKING] 179 00:13:36,712 --> 00:13:38,231 He makes a total of five calls 180 00:13:38,265 --> 00:13:39,646 to the Green Bay Police Department 181 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,338 in the week leading up to his disappearance. 182 00:13:42,373 --> 00:13:43,581 [TOM SPEAKING OVER TAPE] 183 00:13:44,237 --> 00:13:45,479 [MALE OPERATOR SPEAKING] 184 00:14:03,187 --> 00:14:05,499 They were told to go get the tape, 185 00:14:05,534 --> 00:14:08,468 hold it as evidence and not release it. 186 00:14:11,057 --> 00:14:12,679 And he just didn't do it. 187 00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:15,855 He just... 188 00:14:15,889 --> 00:14:17,580 didn't bother to get up out of his chair 189 00:14:17,615 --> 00:14:20,514 and walk 50 feet, grab the tape and... 190 00:14:21,584 --> 00:14:22,792 That would've been the end of it. 191 00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:27,625 KUTSKA: When I left the station with the recording, 192 00:14:27,659 --> 00:14:29,799 I didn't know who the caller was. 193 00:14:29,834 --> 00:14:32,802 I had my suspicions, but I didn't know. 194 00:14:32,837 --> 00:14:36,841 When I played the recording, I heard Tom's voice. 195 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:39,809 If the Green Bay Police Department, 196 00:14:40,603 --> 00:14:42,674 in an effort to protect 197 00:14:42,709 --> 00:14:44,469 the identity of the person on the tape, 198 00:14:44,504 --> 00:14:46,402 had simply released 199 00:14:46,437 --> 00:14:48,888 a written transcript of the call, 200 00:14:50,165 --> 00:14:51,649 we wouldn't be sitting here. 201 00:15:05,905 --> 00:15:07,699 PIASKOWSKI: Tom was sitting right there by the door 202 00:15:07,734 --> 00:15:09,701 with his knees up on the counter, 203 00:15:09,736 --> 00:15:11,048 and he was reading a newspaper. 204 00:15:17,123 --> 00:15:19,366 Within less than a minute, 205 00:15:19,401 --> 00:15:21,575 Keith Kutska walked in and he had a tape, 206 00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:23,853 small cassette tape player in his hand. 207 00:15:24,475 --> 00:15:25,994 He calls me, "Piaskowski." 208 00:15:26,028 --> 00:15:28,306 He said, "Piaskowski, name that tune." 209 00:15:28,341 --> 00:15:30,412 -[CLICKS] -[TOM SPEAKING ON TAPE] I'd like to report 210 00:15:30,446 --> 00:15:32,448 an employee theft 211 00:15:32,483 --> 00:15:34,381 which is gonna occur at James River. 212 00:15:34,415 --> 00:15:37,039 He set the tape player down in front of Tom. 213 00:15:37,074 --> 00:15:39,110 -[OPERATOR ON TAPE] Did you notify your security? -[TOM] No, I didn't. 214 00:15:39,145 --> 00:15:40,801 PIASKOWSKI: Tom looked up over his left shoulder 215 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:44,805 and he had just a total expression of disbelief and awe. 216 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,876 And his mouth just was gaping open 217 00:15:46,911 --> 00:15:48,775 and his eyes were really wide and... 218 00:15:50,328 --> 00:15:51,571 "Do you admit that's you?" 219 00:15:52,227 --> 00:15:53,400 Tom said, "What?" 220 00:15:53,435 --> 00:15:54,988 Like he didn't understand the question. 221 00:15:57,025 --> 00:15:59,889 "Are you admitting that that's you on that police tape?" 222 00:16:01,512 --> 00:16:02,720 Tom said, uh, 223 00:16:02,754 --> 00:16:04,825 he admitted it. He said "Yes." 224 00:16:04,860 --> 00:16:06,448 KUTSKA: He didn't give us a good reason 225 00:16:06,482 --> 00:16:08,036 why he reported me to the police, 226 00:16:08,070 --> 00:16:11,211 but I wanted him and others at the mill to know 227 00:16:11,246 --> 00:16:12,902 that we knew what he did. 228 00:16:14,421 --> 00:16:16,976 Kutska started saying, 229 00:16:17,010 --> 00:16:18,632 berating him a little bit, "What'd you do that for? 230 00:16:18,667 --> 00:16:20,082 "We were talking like good friends, 231 00:16:20,117 --> 00:16:22,636 "five minutes later, or ten minutes later, or whatever. 232 00:16:22,671 --> 00:16:25,708 "If you had a problem, why didn't you say something to me then? 233 00:16:25,743 --> 00:16:27,469 "That's malicious." 234 00:16:27,503 --> 00:16:28,711 And he, very indignantly, 235 00:16:28,746 --> 00:16:30,230 turned around and walked out of the room. 236 00:16:33,061 --> 00:16:34,338 I don't swear often. 237 00:16:34,372 --> 00:16:35,787 On occasion I do, but I don't swear often. 238 00:16:35,822 --> 00:16:37,824 But I said, "I just don't fucking believe 239 00:16:37,858 --> 00:16:40,275 "that you would do that. We're family. We're friends." 240 00:16:40,309 --> 00:16:43,519 You know? "We're a union." 241 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,079 I took my readings and I was gone for five or ten minutes, 242 00:16:51,113 --> 00:16:53,012 and then I walked back to the control room. 243 00:16:54,599 --> 00:16:57,602 I looked up and Tom was at the controls, 244 00:16:57,637 --> 00:17:00,916 starting the 7:35-ish turnover. 245 00:17:03,367 --> 00:17:05,645 TRAINING VIDEO NARRATOR: After a roll is as large as is desired, 246 00:17:05,679 --> 00:17:08,060 a new roll is started with a second core. 247 00:17:08,096 --> 00:17:10,166 This on-the-run process of transferring the sheet 248 00:17:10,201 --> 00:17:14,067 from a finished roll to a new core is called a turnover. 249 00:17:14,102 --> 00:17:17,829 Here, Tom Monfils is applying two-sided tape to the core. 250 00:17:17,864 --> 00:17:20,487 PIASKOWSKI: He goes to the left and runs the crane 251 00:17:20,521 --> 00:17:22,972 that lifts the big roll of paper out and they move it out of there like that. 252 00:17:23,007 --> 00:17:24,664 Well, I can't see any of that happen anymore, 253 00:17:24,698 --> 00:17:26,079 because there's a big control panel 254 00:17:26,114 --> 00:17:28,253 in right my line of vision from sitting 255 00:17:28,288 --> 00:17:30,083 in the control room where I was sitting. 256 00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:34,570 And I never saw Tom again. 257 00:17:35,157 --> 00:17:36,262 And that's a fact. 258 00:17:38,333 --> 00:17:42,061 WINKLER: Monfils just magically disappears. 259 00:17:43,648 --> 00:17:48,205 I'm sure that if the TV show4400 would've been around at the time, 260 00:17:48,239 --> 00:17:50,207 they would've said he was abducted, you know. 261 00:17:50,241 --> 00:17:51,967 They... [BLOWS RASPBERRY] Gone. You know? [CHUCKLES] 262 00:17:52,001 --> 00:17:55,833 Because it was... they wanted it to appear just that way. 263 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,768 PIASKOWSKI: I looked down and Tom wasn't around. 264 00:17:59,802 --> 00:18:01,183 There wasn't anybody by my machine. 265 00:18:01,218 --> 00:18:02,702 And there should be. 266 00:18:03,461 --> 00:18:04,738 If Tom's not around, 267 00:18:04,773 --> 00:18:05,843 I'll get him in trouble. 268 00:18:08,432 --> 00:18:10,710 I immediately grabbed the phone and I called the office 269 00:18:10,744 --> 00:18:12,263 and I got a hold of the foreman. 270 00:18:12,298 --> 00:18:13,437 He said, "What's going on?" 271 00:18:13,471 --> 00:18:14,748 I said, 'Well, there's a whole bunch of shit going on. 272 00:18:14,783 --> 00:18:15,784 "You better get down here fast." 273 00:18:15,818 --> 00:18:17,579 Well, I wanted to get him down here 274 00:18:17,613 --> 00:18:19,236 so he showed up before Tom showed up. 275 00:18:20,547 --> 00:18:21,583 Tom would have egg on his face, 276 00:18:21,617 --> 00:18:23,102 and I'd be able to say, "See?" 277 00:18:28,831 --> 00:18:31,938 The more and more time went by without finding any answers, 278 00:18:31,972 --> 00:18:34,837 the more and more, uh, serious it got. 279 00:18:36,529 --> 00:18:37,564 STEVE STEIN: I thought it was weird. 280 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:39,808 I was like, "Wow. 281 00:18:39,842 --> 00:18:41,223 "Where the heck would he go?" 282 00:18:42,397 --> 00:18:43,743 [FAINT WHIRRING] 283 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,023 The buzz around the mill was that he had left, 284 00:18:48,057 --> 00:18:50,922 or walked off the premises. 285 00:18:52,855 --> 00:18:54,650 They didn't realize he was still in the mill. 286 00:19:03,694 --> 00:19:05,213 PIASKOWSKI: At 7 o'clock, they said, 287 00:19:05,247 --> 00:19:08,216 "Well, let's stop at Carla Jean's and iron this out, 288 00:19:08,250 --> 00:19:09,907 or figure this out, or something. 289 00:19:12,081 --> 00:19:15,154 Lepeck said, "What if Monfils is in the parking lot 290 00:19:15,188 --> 00:19:16,948 "and he's got a deer rifle with him?" 291 00:19:16,983 --> 00:19:19,158 You know? We both stepped away from Kutska, 292 00:19:19,192 --> 00:19:20,745 you know, joking, kind of like that. 293 00:19:20,780 --> 00:19:21,953 And I went to the middle of the road, 294 00:19:21,988 --> 00:19:23,334 and I said, you know, followed the joke along, 295 00:19:23,369 --> 00:19:24,991 I said, "Yeah. Hit the dirt or start running. 296 00:19:25,025 --> 00:19:27,096 "Just like in 'Nam or something." I said to him. 297 00:19:27,131 --> 00:19:28,339 [IMPERCEPTIBLE] 298 00:19:32,792 --> 00:19:35,588 STEIN: They were talking about shutting all of the machines down 299 00:19:35,622 --> 00:19:40,662 and starting to drain the pulp vats and stuff like that, 300 00:19:40,696 --> 00:19:42,146 just to start checking to see, 301 00:19:42,181 --> 00:19:44,079 -because they couldn't find him anywhere. -[BUBBLING] 302 00:19:44,113 --> 00:19:45,805 And they asked me if I would do it. 303 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:47,738 And I said I would do it. 304 00:19:49,084 --> 00:19:51,086 I actually did it because I couldn't believe it. 305 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,950 I was, like, "Well, I got to see this, 306 00:19:52,984 --> 00:19:53,882 "because I don't believe that... 307 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:55,746 "that he's in this tank." 308 00:19:58,473 --> 00:19:59,681 He was in there. 309 00:19:59,715 --> 00:20:01,683 PIASKOWSKI: Well, my very first thought was 310 00:20:01,717 --> 00:20:03,616 they found him in the tissue chest. 311 00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:05,031 The tissue chest had to be empty. 312 00:20:05,065 --> 00:20:06,515 He was just hiding in there. 313 00:20:06,550 --> 00:20:09,000 I said, "Well, that's where he was." You know? 314 00:20:09,035 --> 00:20:12,349 And then they told me he was passed away, dead, 315 00:20:12,383 --> 00:20:13,557 and I couldn't believe it. 316 00:20:13,591 --> 00:20:15,144 That's... that's insane. 317 00:20:15,179 --> 00:20:16,180 That's crazy. 318 00:20:16,215 --> 00:20:17,077 [MACHINERY WHIRRING] 319 00:20:27,467 --> 00:20:28,572 Just... 320 00:20:28,606 --> 00:20:29,780 hard to... hard to accept, 321 00:20:29,814 --> 00:20:31,920 you know, that something like that could happen 322 00:20:31,954 --> 00:20:33,232 in our little mill, our little... 323 00:20:34,509 --> 00:20:36,200 family. 324 00:20:36,235 --> 00:20:37,236 [MACHINERY WHIRRING] 325 00:20:44,173 --> 00:20:47,142 STEIN: The atmosphere in the mill became 326 00:20:47,176 --> 00:20:49,178 like you were walking on eggshells. 327 00:21:18,656 --> 00:21:22,867 KERHIN: Everybody, at first, was really angered at the Police Department 328 00:21:22,902 --> 00:21:25,284 for being so foolish to give a voice recording. 329 00:21:28,908 --> 00:21:31,151 Had it not been released, 330 00:21:31,186 --> 00:21:33,153 I don't think there would've been a homicide. 331 00:21:39,505 --> 00:21:44,751 STEIN: Well, I believe it was the day after that they found Tom, uh... 332 00:21:44,786 --> 00:21:46,719 they came to my house. 333 00:21:46,753 --> 00:21:49,135 First thing they said was, "We're here 334 00:21:49,169 --> 00:21:51,896 "because we believe you killed Tom Monfils." 335 00:21:52,794 --> 00:21:54,968 And I was like... 336 00:21:55,003 --> 00:21:57,523 "Uh... wait a minute. I wasn't even there." 337 00:21:57,557 --> 00:22:02,113 And then they proceeded to tell me how I snuck back into the mill 338 00:22:02,148 --> 00:22:03,943 and I did this, and I did that, 339 00:22:03,977 --> 00:22:06,463 right in front of my family, right in front of my kids. 340 00:22:06,497 --> 00:22:11,053 "We've got enough on you to get you fired from your job." 341 00:22:11,088 --> 00:22:12,986 "Your family loves you, but they're not gonna love you 342 00:22:13,021 --> 00:22:15,610 "when they find out what kind of a scumbag you are." 343 00:22:15,644 --> 00:22:17,474 INTERVIEWER: So it wasn't just, like, one officer? 344 00:22:17,508 --> 00:22:19,234 This was a system-wide... 345 00:22:19,268 --> 00:22:22,030 Well, it was one in particular. 346 00:22:27,863 --> 00:22:29,106 He's quite a piece of work. 347 00:22:31,108 --> 00:22:32,972 We're talking about Randy Winkler. 348 00:22:35,630 --> 00:22:40,289 Randy Winkler came to my house one Sunday afternoon. 349 00:22:44,190 --> 00:22:45,812 He came up and he says, "Steve, you never signed 350 00:22:45,847 --> 00:22:47,745 "your affidavit from yesterday." 351 00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:48,850 And I said, "Sure I did." 352 00:22:48,884 --> 00:22:51,059 He said, "No, you never signed it." 353 00:22:51,093 --> 00:22:53,233 And I said, "Yeah, I signed it." 354 00:22:53,268 --> 00:22:55,097 "No. You never signed it." 355 00:22:55,132 --> 00:22:56,720 He says, "Here, just sign it quick," he says. 356 00:22:56,754 --> 00:22:58,031 "I'll get on my way." 357 00:22:59,723 --> 00:23:00,931 I was ready to sign it. 358 00:23:00,965 --> 00:23:02,415 I had it on my workbench. I was ready to sign it 359 00:23:02,450 --> 00:23:03,899 and my wife came out and she says, 360 00:23:03,934 --> 00:23:04,969 "Steve, what are you doing?" And I said, 361 00:23:05,004 --> 00:23:06,246 "I'm going to sign this." 362 00:23:06,281 --> 00:23:09,180 And she says, "Well, did you read it?" 363 00:23:09,215 --> 00:23:11,597 And I said, "No, I didn't read it." 364 00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:13,806 And Randy was like, "No, no, no. 365 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,255 "Just let him sign it. I got to get going." 366 00:23:17,741 --> 00:23:22,090 He had it written down that I told him that Mike Piaskowski told me 367 00:23:22,124 --> 00:23:24,092 that he knew what happened. 368 00:23:24,126 --> 00:23:25,921 And I said, "I never told you that." 369 00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:29,062 "I never told you that, 'cause Mike's never said that to me." 370 00:23:29,097 --> 00:23:30,201 He grabbed that paper. 371 00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:32,480 He got so mad, he ripped that up 372 00:23:32,514 --> 00:23:33,791 and he swore at me 373 00:23:33,826 --> 00:23:35,690 and he pointed his finger at me. 374 00:23:35,724 --> 00:23:37,139 And he says, "I'm gonna get you. 375 00:23:37,174 --> 00:23:38,969 "I'm gonna implicate you somehow." 376 00:23:40,522 --> 00:23:41,661 Thank God for my wife. 377 00:23:41,696 --> 00:23:43,111 She... she... 378 00:23:43,145 --> 00:23:44,423 Uh, 'cause I was ready to sign it. 379 00:23:59,127 --> 00:24:00,749 WINKLER: I think I was... 380 00:24:00,784 --> 00:24:02,095 I was meant to be a cop. 381 00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:07,238 My dad was a farmer. 382 00:24:09,102 --> 00:24:11,035 And one particular night, 383 00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:13,521 my dad was stopped by a state trooper. 384 00:24:13,555 --> 00:24:15,902 And he had a tail light burnt out. 385 00:24:15,937 --> 00:24:17,421 And it was dark. 386 00:24:17,456 --> 00:24:21,460 And the trooper went to his trunk of his car, 387 00:24:21,494 --> 00:24:24,221 pulled out a screwdriver and a light bulb, 388 00:24:24,255 --> 00:24:26,119 changed the light, put it in 389 00:24:26,154 --> 00:24:28,259 and away we went. 390 00:24:28,294 --> 00:24:31,055 And I just thought that was the coolest thing. 391 00:24:32,022 --> 00:24:34,300 He could have... 392 00:24:34,334 --> 00:24:37,786 just, "Nah, I'm not even going to bother," you know? 393 00:24:37,821 --> 00:24:39,478 You know, or given him a warning 394 00:24:39,512 --> 00:24:41,756 to have him fix it himself, or something like that. 395 00:24:41,790 --> 00:24:46,450 But instead, no, he actually took an effort and... 396 00:24:46,485 --> 00:24:48,556 and did something good for somebody. 397 00:24:52,525 --> 00:24:55,355 That's when I made the decision I wanted to become a cop. 398 00:24:55,390 --> 00:24:57,496 Because I wanted to be able to help people. 399 00:25:08,990 --> 00:25:11,199 I started out in the patrol division. 400 00:25:11,233 --> 00:25:13,132 I started out walking a beat. 401 00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:15,375 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 402 00:25:15,410 --> 00:25:18,931 Walking a beat was one of the most fantastic experiences 403 00:25:18,965 --> 00:25:20,208 I've ever had. 404 00:25:22,175 --> 00:25:24,592 Walking into the bars on Broadway... 405 00:25:24,626 --> 00:25:27,698 Today Broadway is nothing like it was 406 00:25:27,733 --> 00:25:29,320 back in the '70s, you know? 407 00:25:31,150 --> 00:25:32,392 You had to earn your respect 408 00:25:32,427 --> 00:25:34,636 when you walked into a place, you know? 409 00:25:34,671 --> 00:25:36,155 You couldn't be... 410 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,227 hard. 411 00:25:39,261 --> 00:25:44,266 If you walked into a bar and they were shooting craps on the bar, 412 00:25:44,301 --> 00:25:46,510 rather than bust 'em, or arrest 'em for it, 413 00:25:46,545 --> 00:25:48,788 you just looked out the window, 414 00:25:48,823 --> 00:25:51,515 and when you looked back, the dice were off the bar. 415 00:25:52,792 --> 00:25:54,518 They didn't disrespect you 416 00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:57,417 and you didn't 417 00:25:57,452 --> 00:25:59,661 have to do things that you didn't want to do. 418 00:26:03,285 --> 00:26:05,218 When you get into detectives, 419 00:26:05,253 --> 00:26:07,358 it becomes much more serious. 420 00:26:09,050 --> 00:26:11,397 You have to be... very, very careful 421 00:26:11,431 --> 00:26:14,607 that you have the right person. 422 00:26:14,642 --> 00:26:18,922 You definitely don't want to accuse anyone of something that... 423 00:26:18,956 --> 00:26:21,131 or point 'em out, even as a suspect 424 00:26:21,165 --> 00:26:22,822 in something that they didn't do. 425 00:26:29,898 --> 00:26:31,693 PIASKOWSKI: She wanted time. She wanted space. 426 00:26:31,728 --> 00:26:33,453 You know, how they, uh... 427 00:26:33,488 --> 00:26:35,007 I didn't know about the boyfriend. 428 00:26:35,041 --> 00:26:36,664 I was suspicious, but I didn't know. 429 00:26:39,183 --> 00:26:40,909 I think deep down, I always thought that... 430 00:26:40,944 --> 00:26:42,428 that she'd come back. 431 00:26:43,912 --> 00:26:44,844 She's still with the guy. 432 00:26:45,811 --> 00:26:47,502 And he's yet to have a job. 433 00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:49,815 A decent job. Huh. 434 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:52,162 He's a loser. Nice guy. 435 00:26:52,196 --> 00:26:54,267 One of those friendly kind, you know, and... 436 00:26:55,268 --> 00:26:56,476 drummer in a band. 437 00:26:59,652 --> 00:27:00,895 Just be totally honest with you, 438 00:27:00,929 --> 00:27:04,415 I wasn't totally faithful either. Uh... 439 00:27:04,450 --> 00:27:09,041 So I was willing to put the past behind us. 440 00:27:09,075 --> 00:27:11,699 Once it came to light, 441 00:27:11,733 --> 00:27:14,391 when she said that she wanted a divorce, that... 442 00:27:14,425 --> 00:27:16,669 I was willing to do whatever it took to make it right. 443 00:27:16,704 --> 00:27:17,946 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 444 00:27:17,981 --> 00:27:19,430 PIASKOWSKI: Steve Stein and I went to Murphy's Pub, 445 00:27:19,465 --> 00:27:21,191 had a fish dinner and... 446 00:27:21,225 --> 00:27:23,296 and drank a little bit too much that night. 447 00:27:23,331 --> 00:27:24,988 I was kind of drowning my sorrows, 448 00:27:25,022 --> 00:27:26,092 so to speak like that. 449 00:27:26,127 --> 00:27:27,956 And then I ended up having a... 450 00:27:27,991 --> 00:27:31,304 an interview with the police the next morning, and I was quite hungover. 451 00:27:33,582 --> 00:27:35,481 Not a wise decision to get drunk like that. 452 00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:41,280 I'm foggy and I'm not feeling good. I'm... 453 00:27:41,314 --> 00:27:42,695 Stomachache, or headache, 454 00:27:42,730 --> 00:27:44,559 or whatever I happen to have at the time, or both. 455 00:27:46,492 --> 00:27:48,287 I liked the guy. [CHUCKLES] 456 00:27:48,321 --> 00:27:51,048 He's, you know, anybody with a name like Randy, 457 00:27:51,083 --> 00:27:52,153 it's not Randall, 458 00:27:52,187 --> 00:27:54,431 or Ed, it's Eddie. You know? 459 00:27:54,465 --> 00:27:57,745 Anybody with an "ie" on, it's very endearing, I think. 460 00:27:57,779 --> 00:28:00,402 I didn't learn what kind of a guy he truly was 461 00:28:00,437 --> 00:28:02,473 until I found out how he thinks. 462 00:28:02,508 --> 00:28:04,683 He thinks a little strange, in my opinion. 463 00:28:06,857 --> 00:28:11,759 WINKLER: You get to know these people and almost, um... 464 00:28:14,762 --> 00:28:16,798 want to be friends with them, you know, 465 00:28:16,833 --> 00:28:19,490 and... that can... 466 00:28:19,525 --> 00:28:20,837 But you can't. You can't do it. 467 00:28:20,871 --> 00:28:23,322 You can't allow your judgment to be clouded. 468 00:28:24,461 --> 00:28:25,980 You know, I always would try to get them in 469 00:28:26,014 --> 00:28:29,500 and get them to tell you a lie right off the bat, 470 00:28:29,535 --> 00:28:32,469 so that you can tell when they're lying to you. 471 00:28:32,503 --> 00:28:34,229 INTERVIEWER: How do you get someone to tell you a lie? 472 00:28:36,335 --> 00:28:38,233 Have you ever stolen anything from work? 473 00:28:39,234 --> 00:28:41,236 Probably but, I don't... Yeah, right. 474 00:28:41,271 --> 00:28:43,618 -You don't... [LAUGHS] -[LAUGHS] 475 00:28:43,652 --> 00:28:46,794 You know... And no, I never did. You know? 476 00:28:46,828 --> 00:28:49,486 And, well, everybody has. 477 00:28:50,901 --> 00:28:54,146 Life in a paper mill is pretty mundane. 478 00:28:54,180 --> 00:28:55,699 I mean, it's... 479 00:28:55,734 --> 00:28:57,494 You know, it's the same thing 480 00:28:57,528 --> 00:28:59,945 day after day after day after day. 481 00:29:00,773 --> 00:29:01,947 Now, this day... 482 00:29:03,086 --> 00:29:04,501 is an exciting day. 483 00:29:05,053 --> 00:29:06,434 Keith Kutska, 484 00:29:07,124 --> 00:29:08,298 on Friday night, 485 00:29:08,332 --> 00:29:10,403 had already called everybody in the mill 486 00:29:10,438 --> 00:29:11,888 and told 'em he's got the tape. 487 00:29:11,922 --> 00:29:14,269 He played it to a few of 'em over the phone, 488 00:29:14,304 --> 00:29:16,824 told everybody to come up and listen to it. 489 00:29:16,858 --> 00:29:20,413 Uh, now, this is a big, exciting time. 490 00:29:20,448 --> 00:29:21,587 Big excitement. 491 00:29:21,621 --> 00:29:23,071 Big thing happening in the mill. 492 00:29:23,106 --> 00:29:24,832 It's not the mundane... 493 00:29:25,487 --> 00:29:27,282 average everyday thing. 494 00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:30,044 All those people that were there 495 00:29:30,976 --> 00:29:33,047 now have lapse of memory. 496 00:29:33,081 --> 00:29:34,462 Mike Piaskowski can't remember 497 00:29:34,496 --> 00:29:35,946 "Did I do this or did do that? 498 00:29:35,981 --> 00:29:39,191 "Well, I assume I did this, and I assume I did that, 499 00:29:39,225 --> 00:29:41,365 "and I probably would have done this, 500 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,815 "and I might have done that. 501 00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:45,369 "But I'm not sure. And if somebody said I did it, 502 00:29:45,404 --> 00:29:47,544 "I probably did it, but I may not have done it." 503 00:29:47,578 --> 00:29:48,856 PIASKOWSKI: Winkler's sitting, 504 00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:51,030 his face inches from mine, sideways, 505 00:29:51,065 --> 00:29:53,826 screaming at me, the spit's coming in my face, you know? 506 00:29:53,861 --> 00:29:54,723 And I'm thinking, 507 00:29:54,758 --> 00:29:56,277 you know, I'm in my own mind, 508 00:29:56,311 --> 00:29:58,762 I'm looking down at this situation that I'm sitting in, 509 00:29:58,797 --> 00:30:01,316 thinking, "They've got to go through this stuff." 510 00:30:01,351 --> 00:30:02,421 Sooner or later, they'll realize 511 00:30:02,455 --> 00:30:03,802 they're barking up the wrong tree. 512 00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:05,493 And they'll go bark somewhere else. 513 00:30:07,495 --> 00:30:09,152 Then Winkler will slam the table 514 00:30:09,186 --> 00:30:10,636 and he'll do all kinds of gyrations 515 00:30:10,670 --> 00:30:12,534 and try to get you excited, 516 00:30:12,569 --> 00:30:14,329 try to make you stumble, 517 00:30:14,364 --> 00:30:16,090 uh, try to confuse you. 518 00:30:18,609 --> 00:30:19,818 WINKLER: Yeah, I'm not a bad cop. 519 00:30:21,267 --> 00:30:23,442 I'm not a bully, or a... [CHUCKLES] 520 00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:26,963 uh, a hard person to talk to, you know? It's... 521 00:30:27,998 --> 00:30:31,795 I can get stern at times when... when I need to. 522 00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:33,141 "Come on, tell me." 523 00:30:33,176 --> 00:30:34,280 You know? 524 00:30:34,315 --> 00:30:36,282 Get pointed with questions and... 525 00:30:36,317 --> 00:30:38,181 "Come on. I know that's not the truth. 526 00:30:38,215 --> 00:30:39,699 "I need the truth from you. 527 00:30:39,734 --> 00:30:41,253 "Now just tell me the truth." 528 00:30:41,287 --> 00:30:43,082 "Don't tell me that. 529 00:30:43,117 --> 00:30:44,463 "I know that's a lie." 530 00:30:44,497 --> 00:30:46,603 Or, you know, even stronger than that. 531 00:30:46,637 --> 00:30:49,606 "I know you know this. Just... just come out... 532 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,884 "It's not going to hurt you to tell us the truth." 533 00:30:51,919 --> 00:30:55,543 I'm close. Personal touching, you know, 534 00:30:55,577 --> 00:30:57,234 in your space, you know? 535 00:30:57,269 --> 00:31:00,789 And it's hard for you to avoid me, 536 00:31:00,824 --> 00:31:03,137 because you're going to, you know, you're... 537 00:31:03,171 --> 00:31:04,345 you're right with me, you know? 538 00:31:04,379 --> 00:31:06,278 And I'm right with you, you know? So... 539 00:31:06,312 --> 00:31:07,486 And that's how it's done. 540 00:31:13,423 --> 00:31:16,426 CAL: The first time the medical examiner said how he died, 541 00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:17,392 you know, it was two words, 542 00:31:17,427 --> 00:31:18,842 "Ligature strangulation." 543 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:22,604 KLEMM: He had injuries to his scalp. 544 00:31:22,639 --> 00:31:23,640 He had a skull fracture. 545 00:31:23,674 --> 00:31:24,883 He had a fracture of the jaw. 546 00:31:24,917 --> 00:31:26,746 He had injuries to his abdomen. 547 00:31:28,334 --> 00:31:31,441 We know that Tom Monfils was alive, 548 00:31:31,475 --> 00:31:32,545 at least briefly, 549 00:31:32,580 --> 00:31:34,651 at the bottom of the pulp vat. 550 00:31:34,685 --> 00:31:39,173 Uh, pulp is the raw material that goes into making paper. 551 00:31:39,207 --> 00:31:40,657 It's wood and liquid. 552 00:31:40,691 --> 00:31:42,555 He had that in his lungs. 553 00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:44,109 So he was alive in the vat. 554 00:31:44,143 --> 00:31:48,837 He had the weight attached around his neck with a rope. 555 00:31:48,872 --> 00:31:50,978 And Helen Young described him 556 00:31:51,012 --> 00:31:54,878 as having both suffocated and been strangled. 557 00:31:57,398 --> 00:32:00,125 Once he entered the vat with the weight around his neck, 558 00:32:00,159 --> 00:32:01,160 he was never coming out. 559 00:32:01,195 --> 00:32:02,541 There was no way out for him. 560 00:32:17,176 --> 00:32:19,799 When you look at what happened to Tom Monfils, 561 00:32:19,834 --> 00:32:22,941 you understand why people were reluctant to come forward. 562 00:32:25,633 --> 00:32:30,707 WINKLER: People really want to distance themselves from that case. 563 00:32:30,741 --> 00:32:33,020 Most people wanted to stay away from it, 564 00:32:33,054 --> 00:32:35,608 you know, at arm's length, because... 565 00:32:37,541 --> 00:32:39,302 it was obvious 566 00:32:39,336 --> 00:32:40,579 it was not going to turn out good 567 00:32:40,613 --> 00:32:43,651 for whoever did the investigation. 568 00:32:44,203 --> 00:32:45,860 Somebody... 569 00:32:45,894 --> 00:32:48,552 had to grab the reins and let's go. 570 00:32:48,587 --> 00:32:50,761 Let's get something done. 571 00:32:50,796 --> 00:32:54,282 And finally I just said I'll do it. 572 00:32:54,317 --> 00:32:55,732 That I'm going to take it over. 573 00:32:55,766 --> 00:32:57,630 I'll take lead on it. 574 00:32:58,666 --> 00:33:01,151 And I think there was, like, 575 00:33:01,186 --> 00:33:04,223 thirty sighs of relief in the room. [LAUGHS] 576 00:33:04,258 --> 00:33:05,604 "Finally, some idiot took it." 577 00:33:05,638 --> 00:33:07,640 [LAUGHS] You know, so... 578 00:33:07,675 --> 00:33:09,711 And that was me, I guess. 579 00:33:17,616 --> 00:33:20,377 JOHN ZAKOWSKI: You don't have to have an eyewitness. 580 00:33:20,412 --> 00:33:22,793 You don't have to have a photograph. 581 00:33:22,828 --> 00:33:26,728 There's a jury instruction that says circumstantial evidence 582 00:33:26,763 --> 00:33:30,387 is many times more powerful than direct evidence. 583 00:33:30,422 --> 00:33:34,081 And over our many years in the D.A.'s office, I think that's true. 584 00:33:35,806 --> 00:33:37,946 Circumstantial evidence is used 585 00:33:37,981 --> 00:33:40,777 to describe the totality of the evidence. 586 00:33:40,811 --> 00:33:42,296 They are all pieces of evidence. 587 00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:44,022 They're all pieces of a puzzle. 588 00:33:44,988 --> 00:33:46,300 And, so they... 589 00:33:46,334 --> 00:33:49,993 You put together all of these pieces in the puzzle. 590 00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:52,271 Let's say it's a portrait of Abe Lincoln, 591 00:33:52,306 --> 00:33:53,617 and it's a 100-piece puzzle 592 00:33:53,652 --> 00:33:55,516 and you've got 96 pieces. 593 00:33:55,550 --> 00:33:57,069 Well, you might have four pieces missing, 594 00:33:57,104 --> 00:33:59,485 but after all these pieces are together, 595 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,728 you can figure out who it is, 596 00:34:00,762 --> 00:34:01,798 you can figure out what happened. 597 00:34:01,832 --> 00:34:03,144 You can figure out the truth. 598 00:34:09,563 --> 00:34:12,152 INTERVIEWER: When did you start taking personal notes 599 00:34:12,188 --> 00:34:15,674 of, like, just things you were thinking, noticing? 600 00:34:15,708 --> 00:34:17,985 Uh, I think my attorney told me that. 601 00:34:18,021 --> 00:34:20,402 "Whenever you hear anything, write it down." 602 00:34:20,437 --> 00:34:21,887 'Cause it can only help you. 603 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,268 Especially if you got a Polish memory like mine. So... 604 00:34:25,511 --> 00:34:28,790 PIASKOWSKI: "February 22nd. 8:55 p.m. 605 00:34:28,824 --> 00:34:30,137 "Al said the mill was setting up 606 00:34:30,170 --> 00:34:32,449 "Winkler with an office for the interviews again. 607 00:34:32,484 --> 00:34:33,795 "He commented, 608 00:34:33,830 --> 00:34:35,797 "'This only proves that the police are lost.'" 609 00:34:36,867 --> 00:34:39,007 "October 24th, 1993. 610 00:34:39,042 --> 00:34:40,768 "Tom's paranoia might've caused him 611 00:34:40,802 --> 00:34:42,666 "to plan a possible suicide. 612 00:34:42,701 --> 00:34:44,322 "Getting a rope and weight ready, 613 00:34:44,358 --> 00:34:47,223 "maybe placing them on the catwalk above the chests. 614 00:34:47,257 --> 00:34:49,880 "Did the cops check out the area above the chests? 615 00:34:49,915 --> 00:34:52,607 "Did they take any photographs of those areas?" 616 00:34:52,641 --> 00:34:54,126 "Rumor mill at James River. 617 00:34:54,161 --> 00:34:56,473 "Possibly Tom Monfils had the goods on someone else 618 00:34:56,507 --> 00:34:57,854 "in a major way, 619 00:34:57,888 --> 00:34:59,959 "and those persons took advantage of the situation?" 620 00:35:19,324 --> 00:35:21,912 KERHIN: It's the hard thing to help people comprehend 621 00:35:21,947 --> 00:35:23,811 twenty years later, talking about it, 622 00:35:24,915 --> 00:35:26,986 is what two and a half years... 623 00:35:27,539 --> 00:35:29,334 no answers meant. 624 00:35:30,473 --> 00:35:31,922 It happens in November, 625 00:35:31,957 --> 00:35:34,166 and you go a whole another year, 626 00:35:34,201 --> 00:35:35,374 and a whole another year. 627 00:35:37,411 --> 00:35:38,619 Who haven't we talked to 628 00:35:38,653 --> 00:35:41,242 and what is the question we haven't asked? 629 00:35:41,277 --> 00:35:44,038 What is the question we should be asking of what person? 630 00:35:46,282 --> 00:35:49,008 ZAKOWSKI: In this case, I think that was understandable, 631 00:35:49,043 --> 00:35:51,494 that any law enforcement felt more pressure. 632 00:35:51,528 --> 00:35:52,598 They felt more pressure. 633 00:35:52,633 --> 00:35:53,875 They felt like they were under the gun, 634 00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:57,569 especially once that tape was released. 635 00:35:57,603 --> 00:36:00,123 WINKLER: And I had some allies, um, 636 00:36:00,675 --> 00:36:01,849 in the mill, 637 00:36:01,883 --> 00:36:04,714 and I needed their... their support. 638 00:36:05,818 --> 00:36:07,372 And that person said, [SIGHS] 639 00:36:07,406 --> 00:36:09,581 "You know, I don't think you're ever going to solve this." 640 00:36:09,615 --> 00:36:11,514 And that was like... 641 00:36:11,548 --> 00:36:13,447 That was like a knife in the heart. 642 00:36:24,665 --> 00:36:26,736 [KELLNER READING] 643 00:36:47,826 --> 00:36:49,276 AMANDA WILLIAMS: I had gotten off the school bus 644 00:36:49,310 --> 00:36:51,588 and there was a car in the driveway, 645 00:36:51,623 --> 00:36:52,693 and a gentleman stepped out 646 00:36:52,727 --> 00:36:54,350 and came around the back of the car. 647 00:36:54,384 --> 00:36:57,145 He introduced himself as being Randy Winkler, 648 00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:59,078 and said, "I need to talk to you about your parents." 649 00:36:59,113 --> 00:37:01,288 I knew the name as far as he was an officer, 650 00:37:01,322 --> 00:37:02,668 and that kind of freaked me out, saying, 651 00:37:02,703 --> 00:37:05,223 "I need to talk to you about your parents." 652 00:37:05,257 --> 00:37:07,155 I thought something happened, you know, kind of thing, 653 00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:09,296 and I was really kind of scared. 654 00:37:13,023 --> 00:37:16,993 He kind of stood between me and going into the house. 655 00:37:18,857 --> 00:37:21,135 And he was just talking to me about, you know, 656 00:37:21,169 --> 00:37:23,102 "What has been said around your house? 657 00:37:23,137 --> 00:37:25,173 "Have you overheard things? 658 00:37:25,208 --> 00:37:27,590 "Do you know things that are going on?" 659 00:37:27,624 --> 00:37:29,039 You know, and so on and so forth. 660 00:37:29,074 --> 00:37:31,179 And it was just... [SIGHS] Like, he was very persistent, 661 00:37:31,214 --> 00:37:34,907 very kind of in-my-face, very abrupt and kind of brash. 662 00:37:34,942 --> 00:37:37,255 He followed me into the house. 663 00:37:37,289 --> 00:37:39,843 What I said obviously wasn't what he liked, 664 00:37:39,878 --> 00:37:41,535 because it... 665 00:37:41,569 --> 00:37:42,984 his body language changed. 666 00:37:43,019 --> 00:37:44,641 Instead of being leaning towards me, 667 00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:48,369 he leaned back and like, crossed his arms across his chest. 668 00:37:48,404 --> 00:37:50,337 He was probably in there for about two hours 669 00:37:50,371 --> 00:37:52,442 where he was just talking to me about this. 670 00:37:52,477 --> 00:37:53,616 Have I been privy 671 00:37:53,650 --> 00:37:55,652 to conversations between my dad and Keith? 672 00:37:55,687 --> 00:37:58,690 Have I talked to him about dad and Pie? 673 00:37:58,724 --> 00:38:00,070 And, you know, do I know the things 674 00:38:00,105 --> 00:38:01,831 that happened between my mom and these men? 675 00:38:01,865 --> 00:38:04,937 And... everything... It was just like, "Seriously?" 676 00:38:08,838 --> 00:38:12,773 LAWYER: Do you recall that you waited one day for Amanda Kellner 677 00:38:12,807 --> 00:38:15,741 -to come home from school... -[WOMAN COUGHING] 678 00:38:15,776 --> 00:38:16,984 LAWYER: ...at her home? 679 00:38:17,881 --> 00:38:20,090 No, I do not. 680 00:38:20,125 --> 00:38:22,023 LAWYER: You recall that you were waiting there, 681 00:38:22,058 --> 00:38:23,680 she came home from school 682 00:38:23,715 --> 00:38:25,924 and you followed her in the house? 683 00:38:26,649 --> 00:38:27,753 No. 684 00:38:27,788 --> 00:38:30,204 Do you remember that you stayed there 685 00:38:30,238 --> 00:38:31,619 an hour or two? 686 00:38:31,654 --> 00:38:32,896 -No. -You don't remember 687 00:38:32,931 --> 00:38:35,071 asking her questions about conversations 688 00:38:35,105 --> 00:38:37,004 that she had heard her parents have? 689 00:38:37,522 --> 00:38:38,799 No, I do not. 690 00:38:38,833 --> 00:38:41,284 You remember Mr. Kellner telling you 691 00:38:41,319 --> 00:38:44,529 to leave his children out of your efforts 692 00:38:45,323 --> 00:38:47,566 to obtain information from him? 693 00:38:49,223 --> 00:38:50,155 No. 694 00:38:53,089 --> 00:38:54,746 You don't remember he was angry 695 00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:56,437 that you had involved the children? 696 00:38:58,059 --> 00:38:59,889 I never involved his children. 697 00:39:02,098 --> 00:39:03,202 EARL KELLNER: We had a day planned. 698 00:39:03,237 --> 00:39:04,825 We were going to go bowling 699 00:39:04,859 --> 00:39:06,240 or, I don't remember, bowling, 700 00:39:06,274 --> 00:39:08,898 or a movie, or just something you know, for my birthday. 701 00:39:08,932 --> 00:39:10,969 Just me, my dad and my sister. 702 00:39:11,003 --> 00:39:13,316 And he came home and he... 703 00:39:14,282 --> 00:39:15,214 he was different. 704 00:39:17,941 --> 00:39:21,428 We took a walk outside. We went to our backyard. 705 00:39:21,462 --> 00:39:24,431 He said that there are some things that are going on. 706 00:39:24,465 --> 00:39:28,193 He said, "And I have to do some things and say some things." 707 00:39:28,227 --> 00:39:29,919 And he said, "I have to do this 708 00:39:29,953 --> 00:39:31,783 "to keep the family safe. 709 00:39:31,817 --> 00:39:33,405 "I have to keep the family together." 710 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,960 He thought that the phones were bugged, 711 00:39:36,995 --> 00:39:39,411 that the house was being watched. Um... 712 00:39:40,688 --> 00:39:42,518 He pointed down the road. 713 00:39:42,552 --> 00:39:44,761 There was always a car sitting there. 714 00:39:44,796 --> 00:39:48,144 And, since this all started and he said, "They're watching us." 715 00:39:49,283 --> 00:39:52,769 "I'll do anything for you and your sister." Um... 716 00:39:52,804 --> 00:39:54,633 He said that, "No matter what happens, 717 00:39:54,668 --> 00:39:57,049 "I always want you and your sister to be together." 718 00:39:57,084 --> 00:39:58,844 "You know, I'm trying to keep you guys safe." 719 00:39:58,879 --> 00:40:00,467 You know? 720 00:40:00,501 --> 00:40:02,607 "I didn't fight your mom for this long for custody of you guys 721 00:40:02,641 --> 00:40:05,195 "to have you taken away for something like this." 722 00:40:05,230 --> 00:40:07,991 "I want you to look after each other." 723 00:40:08,682 --> 00:40:09,993 And as a... as a kid, 724 00:40:10,028 --> 00:40:12,927 that quite honestly scared the daylights out of me. 725 00:40:19,244 --> 00:40:21,280 WINKLER: I sat him down and I had this... 726 00:40:21,315 --> 00:40:23,421 I had it all set up. It was a... 727 00:40:24,732 --> 00:40:26,216 make-it-or-break-it move. 728 00:40:26,251 --> 00:40:28,391 I pulled out this little receiver 729 00:40:28,426 --> 00:40:30,911 that would be like in a phone. 730 00:40:30,945 --> 00:40:33,569 Two little... paper clip... 731 00:40:33,603 --> 00:40:34,328 Sorry, not paper clip, 732 00:40:34,362 --> 00:40:38,436 but little clips soldered to it. 733 00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:39,678 And I said, "You know... 734 00:40:40,852 --> 00:40:43,130 "you can walk into a bar, 735 00:40:43,164 --> 00:40:45,512 "go and make a phone call, 736 00:40:45,546 --> 00:40:47,099 "place this inside, 737 00:40:47,928 --> 00:40:49,826 "finish making your phone call, 738 00:40:49,861 --> 00:40:51,379 "hang it up, 739 00:40:51,414 --> 00:40:54,313 "and yet you can hear everything that's said in that bar." 740 00:41:00,941 --> 00:41:03,495 His mouth dropped open. 741 00:41:03,530 --> 00:41:05,186 He got pale white, 742 00:41:05,773 --> 00:41:08,327 and at that point I knew 743 00:41:08,362 --> 00:41:10,226 that he had a lot of information 744 00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:13,401 that he wasn't telling us, or hadn't told us in the past. 745 00:41:13,436 --> 00:41:15,300 And I just said to him, you know, 746 00:41:15,334 --> 00:41:18,717 "You either can tell us what happened, 747 00:41:18,752 --> 00:41:24,343 "or we can play these tapes and see what happens there." 748 00:41:24,378 --> 00:41:25,379 You know? 749 00:41:26,311 --> 00:41:27,795 Trying to indicate to him, 750 00:41:27,830 --> 00:41:30,764 or make him think that if he didn't... 751 00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:33,560 didn't cooperate, 752 00:41:33,594 --> 00:41:36,355 that he could possibly be charged with something. 753 00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:38,185 WILLIAMS: He spent a lot of time in the police station. 754 00:41:38,219 --> 00:41:40,325 I think it was two days 755 00:41:40,359 --> 00:41:41,499 that he was questioned and questioned 756 00:41:41,533 --> 00:41:44,294 and presented with that written statement 757 00:41:44,329 --> 00:41:45,917 stating he had to sign it, 758 00:41:45,951 --> 00:41:48,885 you know, for threats of losing his job, 759 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,231 losing his home, 760 00:41:50,266 --> 00:41:52,130 because he's gonna go to jail. 761 00:41:52,164 --> 00:41:53,545 And losing his kids. 762 00:42:08,353 --> 00:42:10,528 I mean, that's... that's not okay. 763 00:42:18,743 --> 00:42:22,505 [KELLNER READING] 764 00:42:26,026 --> 00:42:27,717 It was the Fourth of July weekend. 765 00:42:27,752 --> 00:42:29,995 Keith got drunk and was talking about what happened 766 00:42:30,030 --> 00:42:31,721 the morning Monfils was killed. 767 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,105 He had us role-play 768 00:42:36,139 --> 00:42:38,314 using his wife, my wife and me, 769 00:42:38,348 --> 00:42:39,798 and said we were different people. 770 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,353 [LAUGHING] 771 00:42:43,388 --> 00:42:47,530 Keith said he put Rey Moore and Mike Hirn up to harassing Monfils. 772 00:42:47,565 --> 00:42:49,497 He watched Hirn push Tom while he was making 773 00:42:49,532 --> 00:42:51,741 his last entry in the production log. 774 00:42:53,674 --> 00:42:56,366 They had him, trapped by the bubbler. 775 00:42:58,368 --> 00:43:02,649 He said one of the guys came up behind Tom and hit him in the head. 776 00:43:02,683 --> 00:43:04,651 Keith sent Moore to pick on Monfils, 777 00:43:04,685 --> 00:43:07,999 because Monfils was White and Moore was Black, 778 00:43:08,033 --> 00:43:09,966 and if Monfils said anything, 779 00:43:10,001 --> 00:43:11,623 they would say he was prejudiced. 780 00:43:13,314 --> 00:43:15,800 Rey had the tape and was shaking it at him, 781 00:43:15,834 --> 00:43:18,596 telling him he couldn't deny that he made the phone call. 782 00:43:20,563 --> 00:43:23,048 Piaskowski, Basten, and Johnson were 783 00:43:23,083 --> 00:43:25,568 all standing around yelling at Tom. 784 00:43:25,603 --> 00:43:27,881 Keith said he was just enjoying the show. 785 00:43:30,055 --> 00:43:33,472 Keith repeated these things to me several different times. 786 00:43:34,508 --> 00:43:37,304 ZAKOWSKI: Once that information was 787 00:43:37,338 --> 00:43:39,133 discovered and brought to our office, 788 00:43:39,168 --> 00:43:41,446 then we were able to start looking 789 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,621 towards actually issuing charges. 790 00:43:44,587 --> 00:43:46,658 KELLNER: I've read this 12-page statement 791 00:43:46,693 --> 00:43:49,419 and find it true to the best of my knowledge, 792 00:43:49,454 --> 00:43:51,836 and I sign of my own free will. 793 00:43:51,870 --> 00:43:54,632 Brian A. Kellner. 794 00:43:54,666 --> 00:44:00,327 The role play just doesn't pass the smell test. 795 00:44:00,361 --> 00:44:04,365 It will involve all of these people surrounding Tom. 796 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,437 It will involve one of the men saying, 797 00:44:07,472 --> 00:44:10,164 "Oh, there's a weight and a rope over here. 798 00:44:10,199 --> 00:44:11,821 "I'll go get that." 799 00:44:11,856 --> 00:44:17,102 It will involve two of the men carrying Tom's unconscious body 800 00:44:17,137 --> 00:44:19,898 across an entire warehouse, 801 00:44:19,933 --> 00:44:22,901 unsupported by any eyewitness 802 00:44:22,936 --> 00:44:28,320 and unsupported by physical evidence of any kind. 803 00:44:28,355 --> 00:44:32,911 And then, and probably most unbelievably, 804 00:44:32,946 --> 00:44:35,431 get themselves squared away 805 00:44:35,465 --> 00:44:37,536 emotionally, spiritually, 806 00:44:37,571 --> 00:44:41,333 mentally, to return to their workstations 807 00:44:41,368 --> 00:44:43,611 and work out the rest of their day 808 00:44:43,646 --> 00:44:46,891 without so much as a case of the jitters. 809 00:44:48,237 --> 00:44:49,859 STEIN: You know, it's hard enough to get a guy 810 00:44:49,894 --> 00:44:51,619 to throw $3 or $5 811 00:44:51,654 --> 00:44:54,899 in the retirement kitty when a guy retires. 812 00:44:56,314 --> 00:44:58,281 But, jeez, just ask me to kill somebody for you, 813 00:44:58,316 --> 00:44:59,800 and I'll go along with that. 814 00:44:59,835 --> 00:45:02,596 This is the Fox Den bar outside the town of Abrams. 815 00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:06,255 It's actually in the town of Morgan, where on the July 4th weekend, 816 00:45:06,289 --> 00:45:07,808 Keith Kutska, Brian Kellner 817 00:45:07,843 --> 00:45:10,742 and their two wives gathered here inside the bar. 818 00:45:10,777 --> 00:45:13,849 And, according to the criminal complaint filed against Kutska, 819 00:45:13,883 --> 00:45:16,610 what they did was reenact the confrontation 820 00:45:16,644 --> 00:45:19,233 that Kutska and others had with Monfils 821 00:45:19,268 --> 00:45:20,718 on the day in which he was killed. 822 00:45:20,752 --> 00:45:23,859 Well, let's go back to Kellner's statement for a second. 823 00:45:23,893 --> 00:45:26,068 Here's somebody in the bar. 824 00:45:26,102 --> 00:45:28,208 He's saying, "You're Tom Monfils. 825 00:45:28,242 --> 00:45:30,624 "I'm going to be Mike Hirn. 826 00:45:30,658 --> 00:45:32,350 "You're Rey Moore. And then you're behind him. 827 00:45:32,384 --> 00:45:34,766 "You're over here. You're Piaskowski," and so on, 828 00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:37,320 with specificity. 829 00:45:37,355 --> 00:45:39,944 And then draws on a napkin 830 00:45:39,978 --> 00:45:42,256 where everybody was in the number 9 coop 831 00:45:42,291 --> 00:45:43,775 and draws arrows 832 00:45:43,810 --> 00:45:48,711 as to where Moore goes out this way, we go out this way. 833 00:45:48,746 --> 00:45:51,921 That's somebody that's really telling what happened. 834 00:45:54,717 --> 00:45:56,443 WINKLER: As soon as I got the warrant, 835 00:45:56,477 --> 00:46:00,550 we had teams set up. I got on the radio and I said, "All units, it's a go." 836 00:46:00,585 --> 00:46:03,622 And they swooped him up and brought him in. 837 00:46:06,349 --> 00:46:09,283 Keith Kutska, Rey Moore, 838 00:46:10,422 --> 00:46:13,011 Mike Piaskowski, Mike Johnson, 839 00:46:13,874 --> 00:46:17,050 Mike Hirn, Dale Basten. 840 00:46:17,084 --> 00:46:18,776 PIASKOWSKI: The thing that we feared was happening. 841 00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:20,881 That we were being arrested and charged. 842 00:46:20,916 --> 00:46:22,883 We'd talk and they would be, you know, 843 00:46:22,918 --> 00:46:25,196 just almost like thumbing their nose at you. 844 00:46:25,230 --> 00:46:26,680 They're real... 845 00:46:27,543 --> 00:46:30,201 cocky for another word, you know. 846 00:46:30,235 --> 00:46:32,479 And just... 847 00:46:32,513 --> 00:46:35,206 sit back and think nothing was going to happen to 'em, 848 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,518 that they were untouchables. 849 00:46:37,553 --> 00:46:39,555 And we were able to prove 'em wrong. 850 00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:42,282 We believe we do have enough evidence 851 00:46:42,316 --> 00:46:44,560 to go into court and obtain a conviction 852 00:46:44,594 --> 00:46:46,389 by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 853 00:46:46,424 --> 00:46:47,735 I'm happy this day happened. 854 00:46:47,770 --> 00:46:49,634 There was a lot of happy people today. 855 00:46:49,668 --> 00:46:52,085 FEMALE NEWSREADER: Thomas Monfils' mother Joan Monfils says 856 00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:53,396 her family had to be patient 857 00:46:53,431 --> 00:46:54,950 and just take it one day at a time. 858 00:46:54,984 --> 00:46:56,814 Our feelings... 859 00:46:56,848 --> 00:47:00,369 go out to the families of the defendants. 860 00:47:00,403 --> 00:47:02,992 I'm sure that they must be feeling today 861 00:47:03,027 --> 00:47:05,961 like we felt for the last two and a half years. 862 00:47:05,995 --> 00:47:07,755 Why now? 863 00:47:07,790 --> 00:47:09,378 Because we have enough evidence. 864 00:47:09,412 --> 00:47:11,932 People wonder why has it taken so long. 865 00:47:11,967 --> 00:47:15,246 We did not have the evidence to come forward. 866 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,112 WINKLER: Mr. Monfils was confronted not once, but a second time. 867 00:47:19,146 --> 00:47:21,735 And we believe it was after that second confrontation 868 00:47:21,769 --> 00:47:24,842 that the decision was made to, um... 869 00:47:25,912 --> 00:47:28,431 if you want to put it this way, um, 870 00:47:28,466 --> 00:47:29,570 get rid of the evidence 871 00:47:29,605 --> 00:47:31,538 and thereby putting him in a vat. 872 00:47:31,572 --> 00:47:33,436 ZAKOWSKI: Certainly, the Kellner statements 873 00:47:33,471 --> 00:47:37,026 and other statements which Mr. Kutska made to other people 874 00:47:37,061 --> 00:47:39,580 helped supply some major pieces of the puzzle 875 00:47:39,615 --> 00:47:42,169 which we had to have before going forward. 876 00:47:42,204 --> 00:47:43,584 WINKLER: There's still more evidence out there. 877 00:47:43,619 --> 00:47:45,932 There are people that know things that 878 00:47:45,966 --> 00:47:48,589 may have been afraid to come forward up to this point. 879 00:47:48,624 --> 00:47:52,524 We appeal to their sense of decency, 880 00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:54,872 not only for the family but for the community, 881 00:47:54,906 --> 00:47:57,081 but 'cause it's the right thing to do, 882 00:47:57,115 --> 00:48:00,912 to please come forward and share that information. 883 00:48:00,947 --> 00:48:04,467 MAN 1: I think they did the right thing, yeah, by waiting and... 884 00:48:04,502 --> 00:48:09,472 I know it was rough for the family, but... 885 00:48:11,371 --> 00:48:14,029 I always said if you do something wrong, 886 00:48:14,063 --> 00:48:16,341 it's just a matter of time before they get you anyway. 887 00:48:16,376 --> 00:48:18,447 MAN 2: Actually, I would be quite relieved 888 00:48:18,481 --> 00:48:20,656 that they finally found somebody. 889 00:48:20,690 --> 00:48:23,107 Um, it's not surprising it took this long. 890 00:48:23,141 --> 00:48:26,317 I mean, you gotta expect things like this to take time. 891 00:48:26,351 --> 00:48:28,802 You got to find the hard facts and, you know, nail them. 892 00:48:28,836 --> 00:48:31,770 WOMAN: I was happy that they got the people, 893 00:48:31,805 --> 00:48:33,876 because... [CHUCKLES IN RELIEF] 894 00:48:33,911 --> 00:48:35,982 justice is finally being done for him. 895 00:48:36,016 --> 00:48:37,638 [MAN 3 SIGHS IN RELIEF] It's a relief. 896 00:48:37,673 --> 00:48:38,950 I'll tell you, I'm happy. 897 00:48:40,227 --> 00:48:41,608 I had some... I can't... 898 00:48:41,642 --> 00:48:43,023 There's no words. 899 00:48:43,058 --> 00:48:44,059 I mean, I'm shocked. 900 00:48:44,093 --> 00:48:45,508 I'm happy with the family. 901 00:48:59,695 --> 00:49:01,731 ZAKOWSKI: This is it. This is our one chance. 902 00:49:01,766 --> 00:49:04,734 You know? We got to... we got to get it. 903 00:49:04,769 --> 00:49:06,633 KERHIN: And you had six defendants, 904 00:49:06,667 --> 00:49:08,462 and most of them had two attorneys. 905 00:49:08,497 --> 00:49:10,188 A couple of them only had one. 906 00:49:10,223 --> 00:49:15,262 But, you know, so there were 11, 12, 13 defense attorneys. 907 00:49:15,297 --> 00:49:17,230 MALE REPORTER: When these six suspects make their way 908 00:49:17,264 --> 00:49:18,610 into court come Monday morning, 909 00:49:18,645 --> 00:49:20,958 it will be under very tight security. 910 00:49:20,992 --> 00:49:23,995 Security like we have never ever seen before 911 00:49:24,030 --> 00:49:25,169 here in Brown County. 912 00:49:25,203 --> 00:49:26,791 Context is everything. 913 00:49:26,825 --> 00:49:30,001 I mean, if you did not see these men in the courtroom, 914 00:49:30,036 --> 00:49:32,245 and hear what they were being accused of, 915 00:49:32,279 --> 00:49:35,213 they looked like any six men you'd find anywhere in Green Bay. 916 00:49:35,248 --> 00:49:36,421 They looked like any six men 917 00:49:36,456 --> 00:49:38,285 that my father would have been friends with 918 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,185 from his factory where he worked. 919 00:49:41,219 --> 00:49:44,498 CAL: The one thing I did not like in court was 920 00:49:44,533 --> 00:49:45,568 the fact that you had two sides 921 00:49:45,603 --> 00:49:46,914 to the courtroom. 922 00:49:46,949 --> 00:49:48,813 You had the side 923 00:49:48,847 --> 00:49:51,816 that was like, for Tom Monfils. 924 00:49:51,850 --> 00:49:53,576 And then you had the side, 925 00:49:53,611 --> 00:49:55,716 you know, of the men being 926 00:49:57,511 --> 00:50:00,100 you know, accused... of the murder. 927 00:50:00,135 --> 00:50:02,516 And it was just odd because so many people 928 00:50:02,551 --> 00:50:04,208 on the other side of the courtroom, I knew. 929 00:50:04,242 --> 00:50:05,692 I went to high school with them 930 00:50:05,726 --> 00:50:07,418 and they were relatives, or friends, 931 00:50:07,452 --> 00:50:09,834 or family of one of the six men. 932 00:50:12,043 --> 00:50:13,941 FEMALE NEWSREADER: Most of the people coming to watch the trial are 933 00:50:13,976 --> 00:50:17,566 family members of the victim and the defendants. 934 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,119 Most know the routine by now 935 00:50:19,154 --> 00:50:21,846 and plan on coming back throughout the next month. 936 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,675 How long it takes, it doesn't really matter. 937 00:50:23,710 --> 00:50:25,677 Just, you know... 938 00:50:25,712 --> 00:50:27,783 just so somebody pays for this. 939 00:50:27,817 --> 00:50:28,956 NEWSREADER: Even high-school students 940 00:50:28,991 --> 00:50:31,269 like Eileen Matuszak are sitting in. 941 00:50:31,304 --> 00:50:33,685 Matuszak is learning about the court system. 942 00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:35,480 I just pick it up along the way, I guess, 943 00:50:35,515 --> 00:50:36,895 by watching and observing. 944 00:50:36,930 --> 00:50:38,690 NEWSREADER: There are some here who don't have 945 00:50:38,725 --> 00:50:40,761 any legal interest in the case. 946 00:50:40,796 --> 00:50:42,453 It's an unusual case. 947 00:50:42,487 --> 00:50:46,112 I mean, six... What is it? Six men, tried for one crime? 948 00:50:46,940 --> 00:50:48,838 It's unusual for Green Bay. 949 00:50:48,873 --> 00:50:51,289 MALE NEWSREADER: And for the first time in either the civil or criminal case, 950 00:50:51,324 --> 00:50:53,843 Tom Monfils' widow, Susan, showed up in court 951 00:50:53,878 --> 00:50:55,431 with her attorney, Bruce Bachhuber, 952 00:50:55,466 --> 00:50:58,158 but she rushed out of court saying she didn't want to talk. 953 00:50:58,193 --> 00:51:00,885 Neither did the two defendants out on bond, 954 00:51:00,919 --> 00:51:02,473 Mike Piaskowski and Dale Basten. 955 00:51:02,507 --> 00:51:04,578 REPORTER: May I ask you how you think it's going so far? 956 00:51:04,613 --> 00:51:06,684 No comment. 957 00:51:06,718 --> 00:51:10,343 GULLICKSON: If ever a scene were constructed 958 00:51:10,377 --> 00:51:13,587 to look like the Monfils Six, 959 00:51:13,622 --> 00:51:17,246 or a half dozen union thugs, 960 00:51:17,281 --> 00:51:18,351 there it was. 961 00:51:19,904 --> 00:51:22,217 KERHIN: They were called the Monfils Six 962 00:51:22,251 --> 00:51:25,737 over and over again by most of the media outlets. 963 00:51:25,772 --> 00:51:27,981 They're called the Monfils Six. 964 00:51:28,015 --> 00:51:30,294 MALE NEWSREADER: The men known as the Monfils Six. 965 00:51:30,328 --> 00:51:32,537 The fate of the Monfils Six. 966 00:51:32,572 --> 00:51:35,264 KERHIN: And they were lumped together, 967 00:51:35,299 --> 00:51:38,647 and the decision to try them all together was clearly 968 00:51:38,681 --> 00:51:40,097 a key moment in the case 969 00:51:40,131 --> 00:51:42,996 and has kept them tied together. "Monfils Six." 970 00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:45,102 FEMALE NEWSREADER: The defendants in the Tom Monfils' murder case 971 00:51:45,136 --> 00:51:47,000 sat together for this week's hearing, 972 00:51:47,034 --> 00:51:49,830 but they will probably fight to have separate trials. 973 00:51:49,865 --> 00:51:51,211 It was a fight to get it 974 00:51:51,246 --> 00:51:54,628 where all six defendants were tried at the same time. 975 00:51:54,663 --> 00:51:56,803 FEMALE NEWSREADER: But District Attorney John Zakowski says 976 00:51:56,837 --> 00:51:59,633 it's a better use of resources to try them together. 977 00:51:59,668 --> 00:52:02,049 We'll certainly fight a severance motion 978 00:52:02,084 --> 00:52:03,637 'cause I just think it makes more sense 979 00:52:03,672 --> 00:52:05,777 for all the defendants to be tried at once. 980 00:52:05,812 --> 00:52:07,814 Well, first of all, a joint trial is 981 00:52:07,848 --> 00:52:10,127 going to save taxpayer money. 982 00:52:10,161 --> 00:52:12,681 INTERVIEWER: Do you think that if they had been tried separately, 983 00:52:12,715 --> 00:52:14,890 that you could have gotten convictions? 984 00:52:16,305 --> 00:52:18,065 No. 985 00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:19,446 PIASKOWSKI: Like, I knew Basten. 986 00:52:19,481 --> 00:52:20,585 I knew of Rey Moore. 987 00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:23,554 Uh, I knew of Mike Hirn. 988 00:52:23,588 --> 00:52:25,107 Kind of knew him, 'cause he worked at the paper machines. 989 00:52:25,142 --> 00:52:27,420 But I never really "knew him" knew him. 990 00:52:28,662 --> 00:52:30,457 Michael Johnson, I knew who he was. 991 00:52:30,492 --> 00:52:34,358 INTERVIEWER: At the time, were you convinced that they were all innocent? 992 00:52:34,392 --> 00:52:37,223 Well, we... No. Throughout our own investigation, 993 00:52:37,257 --> 00:52:38,707 you know, we looked at each one of 'em 994 00:52:38,741 --> 00:52:40,157 as if each one of 'em could have done this 995 00:52:40,191 --> 00:52:41,986 or these two could have done something. 996 00:52:42,020 --> 00:52:45,852 In fact, I helped with Mike's defense. 997 00:52:45,886 --> 00:52:47,750 My assignment was to look at Mike Hirn 998 00:52:47,785 --> 00:52:50,822 and see whether Mike Hirn was a... 999 00:52:51,616 --> 00:52:52,755 could have done it. 1000 00:52:52,790 --> 00:52:54,412 So, you know, if we've got that strategy, 1001 00:52:54,447 --> 00:52:55,724 they all have that strategy. 1002 00:52:55,758 --> 00:52:57,277 Mike Hirn's attorney was... 1003 00:52:57,312 --> 00:53:00,038 His defense seemed to be that, you know, 1004 00:53:00,073 --> 00:53:01,695 all the other five guys are guilty, 1005 00:53:01,730 --> 00:53:03,249 but his defendant was not. 1006 00:53:03,283 --> 00:53:06,493 My client is hanging out there alone. 1007 00:53:06,528 --> 00:53:09,876 I think that's pretty clear if anybody's listening to the evidence. 1008 00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:11,360 Everybody's protecting everybody else. 1009 00:53:11,395 --> 00:53:12,913 At least they're all saying they're together. 1010 00:53:12,948 --> 00:53:14,812 And my guy isn't. My guys hanging out there 1011 00:53:14,846 --> 00:53:16,089 in the... on the edge, 1012 00:53:16,123 --> 00:53:17,539 holding on with his fingernails, 1013 00:53:17,573 --> 00:53:20,404 and I'm going to make sure the jury gets that message. 1014 00:53:20,438 --> 00:53:24,442 This wall of silence that has come into this case... 1015 00:53:25,547 --> 00:53:27,618 is the envy of the mafia. 1016 00:53:27,652 --> 00:53:29,102 It is incredible. 1017 00:53:29,136 --> 00:53:32,761 So, you know, we were actually, uh... 1018 00:53:32,795 --> 00:53:35,004 defending ourselves against him as well. 1019 00:53:35,384 --> 00:53:36,661 And again, 1020 00:53:36,696 --> 00:53:39,181 that's that joint trial issue, which is unfair. 1021 00:53:39,216 --> 00:53:40,596 INTERVIEWER: It's fascinating to hear 1022 00:53:40,631 --> 00:53:43,772 about these attorneys basically eating each other alive 1023 00:53:43,806 --> 00:53:45,152 -during the whole thing. -Yeah. 1024 00:53:45,187 --> 00:53:50,019 It was a difficult job for all the attorneys. Um... 1025 00:53:50,606 --> 00:53:51,469 They... 1026 00:53:54,645 --> 00:53:57,303 They did have a difficult case. 1027 00:53:57,337 --> 00:53:59,788 INTERVIEWER: But do you think they had a fair trial? 1028 00:53:59,822 --> 00:54:02,066 Oh, yes. They definitely had a fair trial. 1029 00:54:02,687 --> 00:54:04,275 ZAKOWSKI: There's always, 1030 00:54:04,310 --> 00:54:06,415 from a prosecutor's perspective, 1031 00:54:07,382 --> 00:54:09,487 an advantage and a utility 1032 00:54:09,522 --> 00:54:10,971 in having a joint trial, 1033 00:54:11,006 --> 00:54:13,733 because it's for judicial economy, 1034 00:54:13,767 --> 00:54:16,045 judicial efficiency, 1035 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,703 witnesses don't have to testify more than once. 1036 00:54:18,738 --> 00:54:23,536 You don't have to have two juries being impaneled, or more. 1037 00:54:23,570 --> 00:54:26,677 So in almost every case involving co-defendants, 1038 00:54:26,711 --> 00:54:28,230 if it's possible, 1039 00:54:28,265 --> 00:54:32,027 if, legally, you have the means to try them together, 1040 00:54:32,061 --> 00:54:33,615 we will seek a joint trial, 1041 00:54:33,649 --> 00:54:35,237 and we did that in this case as well. 1042 00:54:35,272 --> 00:54:37,308 The case is exactly what we thought it would be. 1043 00:54:37,343 --> 00:54:40,173 Um. They have no evidence. The state has no evidence. 1044 00:54:40,207 --> 00:54:43,176 They try to bring up a lot of... throw up a lot of dirt. 1045 00:54:43,210 --> 00:54:45,282 But nothing involving the events of that day 1046 00:54:45,316 --> 00:54:48,940 that tie our client in any way to this supposed crime. 1047 00:54:48,975 --> 00:54:52,565 FEMALE NEWSREADER: Prosecutors say this is their strongest witness. 1048 00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:53,669 Brian Kellner. 1049 00:54:53,704 --> 00:54:55,222 I think that they'll find the case is 1050 00:54:55,257 --> 00:54:56,879 really, frankly, not that complex. 1051 00:54:56,914 --> 00:54:58,502 It's a simple matter of whether they accept 1052 00:54:58,536 --> 00:55:00,193 what Brian Keller told them now. 1053 00:55:01,574 --> 00:55:05,612 Everybody except Rey went out the front door of the coop 1054 00:55:05,647 --> 00:55:08,546 and down towards the number 7 paper machine where Tom was. 1055 00:55:08,581 --> 00:55:11,169 Rey went out the back door of number 9's booth. 1056 00:55:12,274 --> 00:55:13,965 And that they confronted Tom by the bubbler. 1057 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,831 MALE NEWSREADER: Kellner places all six suspects at the murder scene, 1058 00:55:17,866 --> 00:55:19,005 talked specifically 1059 00:55:19,039 --> 00:55:21,835 about Rey Moore screaming at Monfils 1060 00:55:21,870 --> 00:55:24,251 and Mike Hirn shoving him in the chest. 1061 00:55:24,286 --> 00:55:26,978 KELLNER: Three more standing behind him. 1062 00:55:27,013 --> 00:55:29,705 And Mike Hirn walked... go up in front of him and... 1063 00:55:29,740 --> 00:55:31,155 [PAPERS SHUFFLING] 1064 00:55:31,189 --> 00:55:32,812 KELLNER: ...they were shaking a tape in his face, saying 1065 00:55:32,846 --> 00:55:33,916 "We got you now." You know? 1066 00:55:33,951 --> 00:55:35,711 "There's no way you can deny this." 1067 00:55:35,746 --> 00:55:36,919 MALE NEWSREADER: According to Kellner, 1068 00:55:36,954 --> 00:55:39,439 Dale Basten, Michael Piaskowski, 1069 00:55:39,474 --> 00:55:43,409 Michael Johnson and Kutska were also in that control room. 1070 00:55:43,443 --> 00:55:46,446 Kellner says Kutska told him what happened next. 1071 00:55:46,481 --> 00:55:49,069 This was going on and Mike Hirn was 1072 00:55:49,104 --> 00:55:51,002 right up in Tom's face 1073 00:55:51,762 --> 00:55:53,936 and gave him a shove. 1074 00:55:54,903 --> 00:55:58,665 And sometime during that 1075 00:55:58,700 --> 00:56:02,255 time period there, whatever... how long it took, that... 1076 00:56:02,289 --> 00:56:05,845 one of the guys gave him a slap upside the back of the head. 1077 00:56:05,879 --> 00:56:08,088 He said he was... he was hit in the head. 1078 00:56:08,123 --> 00:56:09,504 -Yeah. -LAWYER: And did... 1079 00:56:09,538 --> 00:56:11,885 And did Mr. Kutska say where he was hit in the head? 1080 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,577 Um, top back. 1081 00:56:13,611 --> 00:56:16,442 If Kellner is believed, then everybody else is lying, 1082 00:56:16,476 --> 00:56:18,444 they're lying to cover up their crime. 1083 00:56:18,478 --> 00:56:20,929 If one fall, they should all fall. 1084 00:56:20,963 --> 00:56:22,827 GULLICKSON: That Fox Den roleplay 1085 00:56:22,862 --> 00:56:25,382 which was introduced against Kutska 1086 00:56:25,416 --> 00:56:28,937 could never have been introduced against the other men. 1087 00:56:28,971 --> 00:56:31,146 It was hearsay. 1088 00:56:31,180 --> 00:56:35,357 They couldn't have a trial against five of the six of us, 1089 00:56:35,392 --> 00:56:37,670 uh, without having a joint trial, 1090 00:56:37,704 --> 00:56:39,982 because they didn't have any direct evidence against us. 1091 00:56:40,017 --> 00:56:41,846 Just for us laypeople to think 1092 00:56:41,881 --> 00:56:45,954 that, um, they'd grab up six people, 1093 00:56:45,988 --> 00:56:49,060 and you would... 1094 00:56:49,095 --> 00:56:53,444 by inference and by presence, be guilty of anything 1095 00:56:53,479 --> 00:56:56,240 thrown at any other person in that room. 1096 00:56:56,274 --> 00:56:59,243 I understand this only applies to Keith Kutska. 1097 00:56:59,277 --> 00:57:03,350 [SNICKERS] There are the other five men seated in the same room. 1098 00:57:03,385 --> 00:57:07,424 That's the scenario under which these men were tried. 1099 00:57:07,458 --> 00:57:09,943 ZAKOWSKI: I think... well, whether they... 1100 00:57:09,978 --> 00:57:12,152 at this point, I should... I should backtrack. 1101 00:57:12,187 --> 00:57:14,948 If they had been single trials... 1102 00:57:15,915 --> 00:57:18,124 I don't know if... 1103 00:57:18,158 --> 00:57:21,230 if, in fact... I don't... I don't know to what extent... 1104 00:57:21,265 --> 00:57:23,163 um, I'm not certain of what extent 1105 00:57:23,198 --> 00:57:26,512 those... the other statements may or may not have been... 1106 00:57:26,546 --> 00:57:28,686 We would have argued that they were. 1107 00:57:28,721 --> 00:57:30,757 It, uh, could be used. 1108 00:57:30,792 --> 00:57:34,761 But the argument was that of a single trial is appropriate 1109 00:57:34,796 --> 00:57:36,383 and that at the single trial, 1110 00:57:36,418 --> 00:57:39,697 those statements against Kutska can be used 1111 00:57:39,732 --> 00:57:41,354 against the other co-defendants. 1112 00:57:41,388 --> 00:57:43,529 PIASKOWSKI: Even if the judge says to the jury, 1113 00:57:43,563 --> 00:57:46,497 "Now, you don't apply this evidence against... 1114 00:57:46,532 --> 00:57:49,466 "uh, these four defendants, just against these two." 1115 00:57:49,500 --> 00:57:51,260 Or "Just this one against these five." 1116 00:57:51,295 --> 00:57:52,641 You know? The bell has been rung. 1117 00:57:52,676 --> 00:57:53,987 You can't un-ring a bell. 1118 00:57:59,406 --> 00:58:01,374 ZAKOWSKI: This is a whodunit case. 1119 00:58:02,513 --> 00:58:05,309 What? Where? When? 1120 00:58:05,343 --> 00:58:08,933 Who? You've got to find out who is responsible 1121 00:58:08,968 --> 00:58:11,142 for the death of Thomas Monfils. 1122 00:58:11,833 --> 00:58:13,006 Closing argument, 1123 00:58:13,041 --> 00:58:15,112 my former boss used to say it was 1124 00:58:15,146 --> 00:58:16,527 Christmas tree time. 1125 00:58:16,562 --> 00:58:18,460 For almost four hours this morning, 1126 00:58:18,495 --> 00:58:21,221 the District Attorney made his plea for justice. 1127 00:58:21,256 --> 00:58:23,534 John Zakowski, beginning his closing arguments, 1128 00:58:23,569 --> 00:58:26,813 defending his case and the credibility of his witnesses. 1129 00:58:26,848 --> 00:58:30,955 And that was always my favorite part of doing a trial, 1130 00:58:30,990 --> 00:58:32,785 because you could be yourself, 1131 00:58:32,819 --> 00:58:34,234 and you could explain yourself, 1132 00:58:34,269 --> 00:58:35,408 and you could present 1133 00:58:35,442 --> 00:58:38,860 what you thought was important to a jury. 1134 00:58:38,894 --> 00:58:40,586 And you could do it in different ways. 1135 00:58:40,620 --> 00:58:42,277 Ladies and gentlemen, this case involves 1136 00:58:42,311 --> 00:58:44,659 the murder of Thomas Monfils. 1137 00:58:46,108 --> 00:58:48,697 It involves a second confrontation 1138 00:58:48,732 --> 00:58:53,322 during the morning hours of November 21st, 1992. 1139 00:58:53,357 --> 00:58:57,292 WINKLER: What I think happened on November 21st 1992, 1140 00:58:57,326 --> 00:59:00,295 the day that Tom Monfils was murdered. 1141 00:59:00,329 --> 00:59:03,022 First, he's confronted in the coop. 1142 00:59:03,056 --> 00:59:06,750 ZAKOWSKI: He's got to admit that it's his voice on that tape. 1143 00:59:06,784 --> 00:59:09,269 The tape itself isn't going to be enough. 1144 00:59:09,304 --> 00:59:11,651 No, he didn't admit to it. 1145 00:59:11,686 --> 00:59:14,551 They confronted him. Mr. Kutska was civil. 1146 00:59:14,585 --> 00:59:17,105 And now the union can't even do anything? 1147 00:59:18,106 --> 00:59:20,280 Do you think they were just gonna let it lay? 1148 00:59:20,315 --> 00:59:22,351 And they weren't going to do anything at that point? 1149 00:59:23,352 --> 00:59:24,699 And they had to go and confront him 1150 00:59:24,733 --> 00:59:28,634 to get him, to be able to bring those union charges. 1151 00:59:28,668 --> 00:59:31,706 WINKLER: All the guys that were in the number 9 coop, 1152 00:59:32,707 --> 00:59:35,157 watching what was going on, came out 1153 00:59:35,192 --> 00:59:38,264 surrounded Tom Monfils, were yelling at him. 1154 00:59:38,298 --> 00:59:40,611 ZAKOWSKI: And they met him by the bubbler. 1155 00:59:41,370 --> 00:59:42,786 And they began yelling at him. 1156 00:59:43,372 --> 00:59:44,822 One of them had a tape, 1157 00:59:45,858 --> 00:59:46,962 and they had the tape 1158 00:59:46,997 --> 00:59:49,309 and they were shaking it in his face. 1159 00:59:49,344 --> 00:59:51,380 And Hirn was right in his face, and Morrison... 1160 00:59:51,415 --> 00:59:53,555 "What's your fucking problem?" 1161 00:59:53,590 --> 00:59:57,524 At 7:34, Mike Hirn comes up to him, 1162 00:59:59,699 --> 01:00:00,631 gives him a shove... 1163 01:00:00,666 --> 01:00:05,498 causing Tom to make a mark at 7:34 1164 01:00:05,532 --> 01:00:08,294 that indicates something happened. 1165 01:00:08,328 --> 01:00:11,504 We know Monfils worked at 7:34 turnover. 1166 01:00:11,538 --> 01:00:13,264 And we know that Piaskowski calls him 1167 01:00:13,299 --> 01:00:15,750 and is missing about 7:50. 1168 01:00:15,784 --> 01:00:17,993 But before the 7:56, 1169 01:00:18,028 --> 01:00:20,168 that's when those rolls kicked off. 1170 01:00:20,202 --> 01:00:22,584 The logic is, Monfils was killed 1171 01:00:22,619 --> 01:00:26,657 between 7:35 and 7:50 in that short period of time. 1172 01:00:26,692 --> 01:00:27,762 [MACHINERY WHIRRING] 1173 01:00:29,660 --> 01:00:32,180 As they're yelling, Rey Moore reaches over 1174 01:00:32,214 --> 01:00:34,872 and hits Tom Monfils in the head and down he goes. 1175 01:00:38,531 --> 01:00:40,222 ZAKOWSKI: What could have been used to hit him? 1176 01:00:40,844 --> 01:00:43,467 A wrench? Board? A Pipe? 1177 01:00:43,501 --> 01:00:46,573 The word was that he hit him with a knockout wrench. 1178 01:00:49,404 --> 01:00:51,648 ZAKOWSKI: We know that Monfils was severely beaten. 1179 01:00:51,682 --> 01:00:53,442 -It wasn't a one-man job. -[BEATINGS AND GROANS] 1180 01:00:53,477 --> 01:00:57,688 Thirteen separate injuries to Thomas Monfils. 1181 01:00:57,723 --> 01:01:00,933 There was severe bruising to the head, fractured skull, 1182 01:01:00,967 --> 01:01:02,520 contrecoup injury, 1183 01:01:03,383 --> 01:01:04,488 deep bruising in the neck 1184 01:01:04,522 --> 01:01:07,146 consistent with this kind of motion, 1185 01:01:07,180 --> 01:01:09,769 bruises to the chest over the rib area, 1186 01:01:09,804 --> 01:01:13,083 fractured jaw and, of course, a knee to the groin. 1187 01:01:13,117 --> 01:01:15,292 Now, he's lying on the ground, 1188 01:01:15,326 --> 01:01:17,397 in front of these six defendants. 1189 01:01:17,432 --> 01:01:19,503 What do you think happened next? 1190 01:01:19,537 --> 01:01:23,127 What do you think was going through their minds? 1191 01:01:23,162 --> 01:01:24,577 What we argue to the jury, 1192 01:01:24,611 --> 01:01:28,339 and what I think people forget is the motive in this case. 1193 01:01:28,374 --> 01:01:30,410 If you are participating, 1194 01:01:30,445 --> 01:01:34,311 or part of a beating of a fellow co-worker, 1195 01:01:34,345 --> 01:01:35,415 you're gonna be fired. 1196 01:01:35,450 --> 01:01:37,279 You're going to lose your job. 1197 01:01:37,314 --> 01:01:39,765 And one of the exhibits that we used was 1198 01:01:39,799 --> 01:01:43,147 how much money these people were making in the mill. 1199 01:01:43,182 --> 01:01:44,908 Piaskowski, 72,000. 1200 01:01:44,942 --> 01:01:46,979 I think Johnson was over 70. 1201 01:01:47,013 --> 01:01:50,258 Basten, over $100,000. 1202 01:01:50,292 --> 01:01:53,502 Now, back in 1992, that was darn good money. 1203 01:01:53,537 --> 01:01:58,438 If Tom Monfils survives, they get fired. 1204 01:01:58,473 --> 01:02:00,268 They lose their jobs. 1205 01:02:01,234 --> 01:02:03,478 And here you've got a snitch, 1206 01:02:03,512 --> 01:02:06,101 who's laying there bleeding. 1207 01:02:06,136 --> 01:02:08,414 And if you don't get rid of him, 1208 01:02:08,448 --> 01:02:09,898 you're going to lose your job. 1209 01:02:09,933 --> 01:02:12,625 And I think that, in a matter of minutes, if not seconds, 1210 01:02:12,659 --> 01:02:14,351 they said, "We've got to get rid of him, 1211 01:02:14,385 --> 01:02:17,457 "or we're gonna lose that $100,000-a-year job." 1212 01:02:17,492 --> 01:02:19,908 ZAKOWSKI: What do you think this body is telling us? 1213 01:02:20,978 --> 01:02:23,532 What are we supposed to glean from this? 1214 01:02:25,327 --> 01:02:27,882 Mr. Monfils is telling you, "Look at this. 1215 01:02:27,916 --> 01:02:30,263 "Look at me! Look what they did to me! 1216 01:02:31,851 --> 01:02:32,887 "They're hurting me. 1217 01:02:33,784 --> 01:02:35,510 "They're killing me. 1218 01:02:35,544 --> 01:02:37,684 "I didn't commit suicide. 1219 01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:40,446 "My God, I've got a wife and two kids. 1220 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:41,550 "When I heard about that tape, 1221 01:02:41,585 --> 01:02:43,483 "I went out and I worked that day. 1222 01:02:44,691 --> 01:02:46,866 "It took more than one person to do this." 1223 01:02:50,180 --> 01:02:54,046 That's what his body is telling us. 1224 01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,186 ZAKOWSKI: He was killed when he was placed in the vat, 1225 01:02:56,220 --> 01:02:58,222 because his lungs inhaled the pulp, 1226 01:02:58,257 --> 01:02:59,776 and so he was still breathing. 1227 01:02:59,810 --> 01:03:03,538 So it's the operation of putting him in the vat 1228 01:03:03,572 --> 01:03:06,852 which is the first-degree intentional homicide. 1229 01:03:08,129 --> 01:03:10,648 INTERVIEWER: The one that I've had a hard time 1230 01:03:10,683 --> 01:03:12,685 maybe getting in my head is 1231 01:03:12,719 --> 01:03:17,069 the evidence that really gets Mike Piaskowski, 1232 01:03:17,103 --> 01:03:18,346 that really ties him to this. 1233 01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:20,175 Can you go over that a little bit more with me? 1234 01:03:20,210 --> 01:03:21,970 Rope and weight. 1235 01:03:23,351 --> 01:03:25,594 Rope and weight. 1236 01:03:25,629 --> 01:03:27,631 There was a rope that had duct tape around it 1237 01:03:27,665 --> 01:03:32,809 that was found attached to Monfils and this weight. 1238 01:03:32,843 --> 01:03:35,881 And that came from the number seven coop. 1239 01:03:35,915 --> 01:03:37,641 There's rope all over that mill. 1240 01:03:37,675 --> 01:03:41,921 But behind in this dark recess of the number seven coop, 1241 01:03:41,956 --> 01:03:42,991 there were two jump ropes 1242 01:03:43,026 --> 01:03:45,373 that, you know, made makeshift jump ropes 1243 01:03:45,407 --> 01:03:47,513 with this duct tape. 1244 01:03:47,547 --> 01:03:51,241 It is in a dark part behind the number seven coop. 1245 01:03:51,275 --> 01:03:52,449 There's no traffic there. 1246 01:03:52,483 --> 01:03:54,831 There's no reason to walk through. 1247 01:03:54,865 --> 01:03:56,694 If you're from another part of the mill, 1248 01:03:56,729 --> 01:03:57,903 the only people that would have access 1249 01:03:57,937 --> 01:04:01,285 to that would be in that number seven coop. 1250 01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,910 And the only person that had access to that rope, well... 1251 01:04:04,944 --> 01:04:08,603 Pete Delvoe was busy working on the machine. 1252 01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:11,744 Dennis Servais was in the coop 1253 01:04:11,778 --> 01:04:15,368 and later kept occupied by Mike Hirn. 1254 01:04:15,403 --> 01:04:18,061 And Monfils was beaten up. 1255 01:04:18,095 --> 01:04:20,649 The only person left is Mike Piaskowski. 1256 01:04:24,791 --> 01:04:27,070 ZAKOWSKI: In closing, ladies and gentlemen, 1257 01:04:27,104 --> 01:04:29,900 you know, there's a saying up there on the wall. 1258 01:04:29,935 --> 01:04:33,179 "Justice, the hope of all who suffered, 1259 01:04:33,214 --> 01:04:35,975 "the dread of all who wrong." 1260 01:04:36,010 --> 01:04:38,564 Now, I'll tell you, I've used that once before in a case, 1261 01:04:38,598 --> 01:04:40,980 and God willing, I'm sure I'll have an opportunity again. 1262 01:04:41,015 --> 01:04:43,949 But there will never be another case 1263 01:04:43,983 --> 01:04:46,330 where that saying means as much 1264 01:04:46,365 --> 01:04:47,711 as this case. 1265 01:04:48,367 --> 01:04:49,886 On behalf of the state, 1266 01:04:51,577 --> 01:04:53,475 on behalf of this community, 1267 01:04:54,649 --> 01:04:57,479 and on behalf of the family of Thomas Monfils, 1268 01:04:58,204 --> 01:04:59,205 I implore you, 1269 01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:02,346 don't let them get away with it, 1270 01:05:02,381 --> 01:05:04,555 like they have for two and a half years. 1271 01:05:05,902 --> 01:05:07,455 Don't let them get away with murder. 1272 01:05:07,489 --> 01:05:08,905 They're all involved. 1273 01:05:10,285 --> 01:05:12,563 And not to hold them accountable, 1274 01:05:12,598 --> 01:05:14,911 each one of them accountable for what they did. 1275 01:05:15,981 --> 01:05:17,051 It wouldn't be fair. 1276 01:05:18,500 --> 01:05:19,639 It wouldn't be right. 1277 01:05:20,778 --> 01:05:23,091 And it wouldn't be the truth. 1278 01:05:23,126 --> 01:05:25,231 Please return with a verdict of guilty 1279 01:05:25,266 --> 01:05:26,957 as to each and every defendant. 1280 01:05:27,820 --> 01:05:28,752 Thank you. 1281 01:05:34,689 --> 01:05:37,071 REPORTER: Whenever the verdict comes down, 1282 01:05:37,105 --> 01:05:40,212 Action 2 News is going to cut into the programming. 1283 01:05:40,246 --> 01:05:42,939 Whatever we have on the air, we're breaking into it 1284 01:05:42,973 --> 01:05:45,838 and you are going to get live coverage of the verdict. 1285 01:05:45,872 --> 01:05:47,771 This trial has been such a long one 1286 01:05:47,805 --> 01:05:49,773 that some of the regular courtroom observers have 1287 01:05:49,807 --> 01:05:51,982 brought along their own seat cushions. 1288 01:05:52,017 --> 01:05:54,295 These benches can get pretty hard to sit on 1289 01:05:54,329 --> 01:05:56,538 all-day long for five weeks, 1290 01:05:56,573 --> 01:05:58,644 and now, they continue to wait. 1291 01:05:58,678 --> 01:06:01,474 They plan to camp out here in the courthouse 1292 01:06:01,509 --> 01:06:03,338 until the jury's decision is in. 1293 01:06:03,373 --> 01:06:06,617 I hope I'm in the courthouse when the verdict comes out. 1294 01:06:08,102 --> 01:06:09,896 PIASKOWSKI: I felt doomed. I really did. 1295 01:06:09,931 --> 01:06:12,934 It was just an inner feeling, um... 1296 01:06:14,625 --> 01:06:16,386 deep down, secretly hoping that, you know, 1297 01:06:16,420 --> 01:06:17,697 the jury would see it right 1298 01:06:17,732 --> 01:06:20,424 and thinking maybe they'll convict Keith Kutska 1299 01:06:20,459 --> 01:06:21,494 and maybe not us. 1300 01:06:21,529 --> 01:06:23,703 It was interesting because, you know, 1301 01:06:23,738 --> 01:06:26,672 as this trial is going on, the O.J. trial is going on. 1302 01:06:26,706 --> 01:06:30,641 I remember when the O.J. Simpson verdict came... 1303 01:06:30,676 --> 01:06:34,611 came in during the course of that trial, 1304 01:06:34,645 --> 01:06:35,784 I think it was during the noon hour. 1305 01:06:35,819 --> 01:06:38,063 We were in the media room, 1306 01:06:38,097 --> 01:06:39,926 and they came back with a not-guilty verdict. 1307 01:06:39,961 --> 01:06:43,102 And we thought, "What kind of mountain do we have to climb?" 1308 01:06:43,137 --> 01:06:45,553 given what the evidence was in that case. 1309 01:06:45,587 --> 01:06:48,211 My opinion is the same opinion as half the world. 1310 01:06:48,245 --> 01:06:50,213 O.J. Simpson was guilty. 1311 01:06:50,247 --> 01:06:51,524 Uh, guilty as sin. 1312 01:06:51,559 --> 01:06:54,182 But the California jury let him off. 1313 01:06:54,217 --> 01:06:58,290 And I think this jury may have had in the back of its... 1314 01:06:58,324 --> 01:06:59,705 in the recesses of their mind that 1315 01:06:59,739 --> 01:07:01,810 "We're not going to let the O.J. verdict 1316 01:07:01,845 --> 01:07:03,916 "kind of thing happen here in Green Bay." 1317 01:07:03,950 --> 01:07:05,573 [IMPERCEPTIBLE] 1318 01:07:07,851 --> 01:07:09,784 MALE REPORTER: This is Judge James Bayorgeon, 1319 01:07:09,818 --> 01:07:10,957 the Outagamie County judge 1320 01:07:10,992 --> 01:07:14,202 who's been covering the case. 1321 01:07:14,237 --> 01:07:16,860 We apologize for the hum coming from the courtroom. 1322 01:07:16,894 --> 01:07:18,620 Some of the technical facilities 1323 01:07:18,655 --> 01:07:21,037 with so many cameras here, emit some hum. 1324 01:07:26,594 --> 01:07:29,079 MALE REPORTER: The verdict's handed to the judge right now 1325 01:07:29,114 --> 01:07:31,909 by the bailiff as he walks off camera. 1326 01:07:31,944 --> 01:07:35,568 Judge James Bayorgeon carefully looking at each one... 1327 01:07:35,603 --> 01:07:36,776 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask 1328 01:07:36,811 --> 01:07:37,812 that you listen to the reading of the verdict. 1329 01:07:37,846 --> 01:07:39,089 MALE REPORTER: And here he goes. 1330 01:07:39,124 --> 01:07:41,816 "State of Wisconsin versus Keith Kutska. 1331 01:07:41,850 --> 01:07:44,750 "We, the jury, find the defendant, Keith M. Kutska, 1332 01:07:44,784 --> 01:07:45,923 "guilty of the offense 1333 01:07:45,958 --> 01:07:47,580 "of first-degree intentional homicide, 1334 01:07:47,615 --> 01:07:48,857 "party to the crime 1335 01:07:48,892 --> 01:07:51,308 "on or about November 21, 1992, 1336 01:07:51,343 --> 01:07:53,310 "as charged in the information, 1337 01:07:53,345 --> 01:07:55,243 "Here at Green Bay, Brown County, Wisconsin, 1338 01:07:55,278 --> 01:07:59,316 "this 28th day of October 1995, grand jury. 1339 01:08:00,697 --> 01:08:03,941 "State of Wisconsin versus Michael Piaskowski. 1340 01:08:03,976 --> 01:08:05,288 "We, the jury, find the defendant, 1341 01:08:05,322 --> 01:08:07,945 "Michael L. Piaskowski guilty of the offense 1342 01:08:07,980 --> 01:08:09,223 -"of first-degree... -[WOMAN SCREAMS] 1343 01:08:10,500 --> 01:08:11,742 "...intentional homicide." 1344 01:08:11,777 --> 01:08:15,919 "Mike Piaskowski, guilty" and Lisa screamed. 1345 01:08:15,953 --> 01:08:17,852 And we weren't supposed to make any noise. 1346 01:08:18,335 --> 01:08:19,785 And... 1347 01:08:19,818 --> 01:08:21,027 I collapsed down here, 1348 01:08:21,062 --> 01:08:22,581 and we weren't supposed to do anything 1349 01:08:22,615 --> 01:08:23,960 so we're weeping. 1350 01:08:23,996 --> 01:08:27,206 What I remember is "Michael Piaskowski, guilty." 1351 01:08:28,518 --> 01:08:30,451 "Oh, no. Mikey, no." 1352 01:08:30,485 --> 01:08:33,143 You know? It was her right behind me. 1353 01:08:33,178 --> 01:08:36,181 "State of Wisconsin versus Reynold Moore. 1354 01:08:36,215 --> 01:08:38,872 "We, the jury, find the defendant, Reynold C. Moore 1355 01:08:38,907 --> 01:08:42,187 -"guilty of..." -[WOMAN SCREAMING AND WAILING] 1356 01:08:42,220 --> 01:08:44,774 "...first-degree intentional homicide, 1357 01:08:44,809 --> 01:08:47,813 -"party to the crime..." -[WOMAN SCREAMING] 1358 01:08:47,846 --> 01:08:49,263 JUDGE: Remove her, please. 1359 01:08:50,850 --> 01:08:52,714 -GUARD: You're out of here. -[WOMAN WHIMPERS] 1360 01:08:54,853 --> 01:08:57,719 REPORTER: One person ordered being removed from the courtroom right now. 1361 01:08:57,754 --> 01:08:59,928 That is Rey Moore's wife 1362 01:08:59,962 --> 01:09:02,690 and daughter being removed from the courtroom right now. 1363 01:09:05,486 --> 01:09:07,384 -Three guilty verdicts. -If any further demonstrations, 1364 01:09:07,419 --> 01:09:10,835 I'll clear the courtroom before I proceed. 1365 01:09:10,870 --> 01:09:13,770 "State of Wisconsin versus Michael Hirn. 1366 01:09:13,804 --> 01:09:15,910 "We, the jury, find the defendant, Michael Hirn, 1367 01:09:15,943 --> 01:09:17,497 "guilty of the offense 1368 01:09:17,532 --> 01:09:19,914 -"of first-degree intentional homicide..." -[WOMAN CRYING] 1369 01:09:19,948 --> 01:09:23,089 "...party to the crime on or about November 21st, 1992, 1370 01:09:23,124 --> 01:09:25,194 "as charged in the information 1371 01:09:25,229 --> 01:09:27,577 "dated at Green Bay, Brown County, Wisconsin, 1372 01:09:27,611 --> 01:09:30,925 "this 28th day of October, 1995. 1373 01:09:30,959 --> 01:09:33,859 "State of Wisconsin versus Dale Basten. 1374 01:09:33,893 --> 01:09:36,517 "We, the jury, find the defendant, Dale N. Basten, 1375 01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:37,690 "guilty of the offense 1376 01:09:37,725 --> 01:09:39,865 "of first-degree intentional homicide, 1377 01:09:39,898 --> 01:09:43,662 "party to the crime on or about November 21st, 1992." 1378 01:09:43,696 --> 01:09:46,871 "State of Wisconsin versus Michael Johnson. 1379 01:09:46,906 --> 01:09:49,495 "We, the jury, find the defendant, Michael Johnson, 1380 01:09:49,530 --> 01:09:50,669 "guilty of the offense 1381 01:09:50,702 --> 01:09:53,499 "of first-degree intentional homicide, 1382 01:09:53,533 --> 01:09:55,743 -party of the crime... -REPORTER: That's it. Guilty verdicts... 1383 01:09:55,777 --> 01:09:57,123 JUDGE: ...November 21st, 1992. 1384 01:09:57,157 --> 01:09:59,885 REPORTER: ...for all six defendants. 1385 01:09:59,919 --> 01:10:01,714 PIASKOWSKI: I lost faith in mankind. 1386 01:10:01,749 --> 01:10:05,511 I couldn't believe that society was giving up on me that way. 1387 01:10:05,546 --> 01:10:07,133 It was terrible. 1388 01:10:09,101 --> 01:10:10,102 Um... 1389 01:10:11,655 --> 01:10:13,001 We were sentenced to life 1390 01:10:13,761 --> 01:10:16,142 for something we didn't do. 1391 01:10:16,177 --> 01:10:18,628 CAL: I was just glad it was going to be out of the media. 1392 01:10:18,662 --> 01:10:20,181 As selfish as that sounds, 1393 01:10:20,216 --> 01:10:21,251 I was just happy. 1394 01:10:21,286 --> 01:10:23,874 I thought, "Finally. It's done." You know? 1395 01:10:23,909 --> 01:10:25,324 "I don't have to listen to it anymore." 1396 01:10:30,950 --> 01:10:32,745 WINKLER: I just wanted to go up 1397 01:10:32,780 --> 01:10:36,023 and personally shake his hand and... um... 1398 01:10:40,305 --> 01:10:41,892 [BREATH TREMBLING] 1399 01:10:44,964 --> 01:10:47,173 I walked in the D.A.'s office and... 1400 01:10:48,830 --> 01:10:51,039 and they all applauded me. [BREATH TREMBLING] 1401 01:11:01,429 --> 01:11:02,396 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 1402 01:11:07,332 --> 01:11:09,541 PIASKOWSKI: Minutes and hours... 1403 01:11:09,575 --> 01:11:11,128 and days go by so slowly. 1404 01:11:11,163 --> 01:11:13,441 The immediate time goes so slowly. 1405 01:11:13,476 --> 01:11:16,341 But before you know it, a year has gone, you know? 1406 01:11:16,375 --> 01:11:17,963 And then two years. 1407 01:11:19,758 --> 01:11:22,174 You've got to put your mind into this... 1408 01:11:23,106 --> 01:11:25,073 space-y state, in a sense, 1409 01:11:25,108 --> 01:11:26,523 just to kind of deal with it. 1410 01:11:29,906 --> 01:11:31,389 INTERVIEWER: How do you keep from losing it? 1411 01:11:32,391 --> 01:11:33,910 In prison? 1412 01:11:33,943 --> 01:11:36,257 Uh, you don't want to know. [CHUCKLES] 1413 01:11:37,844 --> 01:11:39,467 Probably felt about the same or maybe worse 1414 01:11:39,502 --> 01:11:41,297 than when I went to Vietnam. 1415 01:11:41,331 --> 01:11:42,746 At least when I went to Vietnam, 1416 01:11:42,781 --> 01:11:44,264 I was... 1417 01:11:44,300 --> 01:11:47,026 I had a lot of bravado and training. 1418 01:11:47,061 --> 01:11:49,891 I had no training for what was going to come on in prison. 1419 01:11:53,930 --> 01:11:55,897 I got a phone call. 1420 01:11:55,932 --> 01:11:58,900 The guard of our cell block got a phone call 1421 01:11:58,934 --> 01:12:00,419 and they came out, 1422 01:12:00,454 --> 01:12:03,940 and that happens only on super rare occasions. 1423 01:12:08,324 --> 01:12:10,049 And then I got on the phone and they announced 1424 01:12:10,084 --> 01:12:11,741 that my father had passed away. 1425 01:12:11,775 --> 01:12:13,121 [BREATH TREMBLING] 1426 01:12:14,053 --> 01:12:15,469 And... [CLEARS THROAT] 1427 01:12:19,335 --> 01:12:20,197 Hmm. 1428 01:12:23,373 --> 01:12:24,925 And, um... 1429 01:12:25,755 --> 01:12:27,998 It was sad. It hurt. 1430 01:12:28,516 --> 01:12:29,344 Um... 1431 01:12:32,071 --> 01:12:34,142 I think the guards were there... 1432 01:12:34,177 --> 01:12:35,903 I think the guards were there to... 1433 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:38,284 prevent... 1434 01:12:38,318 --> 01:12:42,116 a person that gets information like that from going off. 1435 01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:44,843 Uh, they wanted to be at the ready, so to speak. 1436 01:12:44,877 --> 01:12:47,742 And I didn't let it hit me that way, 1437 01:12:47,777 --> 01:12:49,330 uh, 'cause that's not me. 1438 01:12:52,713 --> 01:12:53,886 I... 1439 01:13:00,548 --> 01:13:01,377 [EXHALES] 1440 01:13:02,239 --> 01:13:03,240 [INHALES] 1441 01:13:04,414 --> 01:13:07,624 I developed an attitude for a while, 1442 01:13:08,936 --> 01:13:12,940 um, because what the system did to me, 1443 01:13:12,974 --> 01:13:15,148 to my family, to my father. 1444 01:13:18,808 --> 01:13:20,188 They took away our lives together 1445 01:13:20,223 --> 01:13:22,812 in his final years. That's... 1446 01:13:22,846 --> 01:13:24,365 I was pretty bitter for a while. 1447 01:13:26,987 --> 01:13:28,541 INTERVIEWER: How long did that last for you? 1448 01:13:30,335 --> 01:13:31,199 Uh... 1449 01:13:33,478 --> 01:13:34,548 It's still there. 1450 01:13:36,377 --> 01:13:38,241 It's smaller, but it's still there. 1451 01:13:40,554 --> 01:13:41,451 As some... 1452 01:13:43,246 --> 01:13:45,490 cop friends of mine have said, 1453 01:13:45,523 --> 01:13:48,424 you know, Tom Monfils wasn't the only victim in this... 1454 01:13:49,079 --> 01:13:51,841 in this case. 1455 01:13:51,875 --> 01:13:55,776 There are a lot of victims, including me. 1456 01:13:55,809 --> 01:13:58,710 I worked very hard on that homicide 1457 01:13:58,744 --> 01:14:00,436 and put in... 1458 01:14:01,678 --> 01:14:03,059 way too many hours 1459 01:14:03,093 --> 01:14:05,510 and put in too much of myself. 1460 01:14:08,202 --> 01:14:09,168 And... 1461 01:14:09,996 --> 01:14:11,516 it took its toll on me. 1462 01:14:13,276 --> 01:14:14,242 And, so... 1463 01:14:18,695 --> 01:14:20,628 I got ill after. 1464 01:14:29,913 --> 01:14:32,053 It just... It all added up 1465 01:14:32,088 --> 01:14:34,504 and it just got to be too much. 1466 01:14:36,161 --> 01:14:37,714 And, so I took some time off. 1467 01:14:42,478 --> 01:14:46,620 KLEMM: Brian and I also covered the federal civil trial, 1468 01:14:46,654 --> 01:14:50,002 uh, that Susan Monfils brought against Green Bay 1469 01:14:50,037 --> 01:14:52,315 and the police for releasing the tape. 1470 01:14:53,178 --> 01:14:55,421 And it was all about police 1471 01:14:55,456 --> 01:14:58,286 and whether they had created additional danger, 1472 01:14:58,321 --> 01:15:01,048 whether they had placed Tom Monfils in danger 1473 01:15:01,082 --> 01:15:02,636 by releasing the tape. 1474 01:15:03,499 --> 01:15:04,776 At the end of it, 1475 01:15:04,809 --> 01:15:09,366 Susan Monfils and her children were awarded about $2 million. 1476 01:15:17,340 --> 01:15:18,893 WINKLER: When I got back to work, 1477 01:15:18,928 --> 01:15:23,415 um, I was assigned to work with the civil attorneys 1478 01:15:23,449 --> 01:15:28,213 who were representing the city against the civil suit. 1479 01:15:29,282 --> 01:15:31,699 And I was telling 'em the truth. 1480 01:15:31,734 --> 01:15:34,564 Telling 'em what I was gonna have to testify to. 1481 01:15:35,184 --> 01:15:37,084 If what... asked in court, 1482 01:15:37,118 --> 01:15:39,050 this is what the answer is going to be. 1483 01:15:40,087 --> 01:15:41,433 And they didn't want that. 1484 01:15:41,467 --> 01:15:43,469 They didn't like what they heard. 1485 01:15:44,885 --> 01:15:47,197 I got threatened in the hallway 1486 01:15:47,232 --> 01:15:50,994 by the attorney representing the city, 1487 01:15:51,029 --> 01:15:52,306 that I better not say 1488 01:15:52,340 --> 01:15:53,825 what he thinks I'm going to say. 1489 01:15:55,654 --> 01:15:57,760 And then, you know, 1490 01:15:58,380 --> 01:15:59,555 against his better wishes 1491 01:15:59,589 --> 01:16:01,660 I did say what needed to be said, 1492 01:16:01,695 --> 01:16:02,730 what the truth was. 1493 01:16:05,077 --> 01:16:06,320 INTERVIEWER: What was that truth? 1494 01:16:07,079 --> 01:16:09,081 There was a question as to... 1495 01:16:10,427 --> 01:16:13,361 whether the tapes were still in existence, 1496 01:16:13,396 --> 01:16:15,260 because I believe the city claimed 1497 01:16:15,294 --> 01:16:19,091 that they were no longer in existence and, um... 1498 01:16:20,299 --> 01:16:22,957 and I knew that they were. 1499 01:16:22,992 --> 01:16:24,062 INTERVIEWER: But wasn't it public knowledge 1500 01:16:24,096 --> 01:16:25,822 that the tape was released? So how... 1501 01:16:26,684 --> 01:16:27,583 Yeah. 1502 01:16:29,654 --> 01:16:30,827 Hmm. 1503 01:16:30,862 --> 01:16:32,588 I'm getting in real... 1504 01:16:34,106 --> 01:16:35,728 untouchable territory. 1505 01:16:38,594 --> 01:16:43,599 You can't do an investigation and find out only the things you want to find out. 1506 01:16:45,462 --> 01:16:47,844 Then you find out other things. 1507 01:16:47,879 --> 01:16:50,709 And you don't want to know 'em, but you know 'em. 1508 01:16:50,744 --> 01:16:55,093 And when it comes time to have to testify to them, 1509 01:16:55,127 --> 01:16:56,750 you can't say, "I don't remember." 1510 01:16:56,784 --> 01:16:59,062 Or you can't say, "I don't want to." 1511 01:16:59,097 --> 01:17:00,616 You have to tell the truth. 1512 01:17:02,341 --> 01:17:05,206 And the truth is going to be damning. 1513 01:17:06,103 --> 01:17:07,830 And... And... 1514 01:17:09,486 --> 01:17:12,144 not what other police officers want to hear, 1515 01:17:13,490 --> 01:17:17,011 not what administration wants to hear, 1516 01:17:17,046 --> 01:17:19,151 not what the mayor wants to hear. 1517 01:17:27,573 --> 01:17:29,990 They wanted me to be a good old boy 1518 01:17:30,023 --> 01:17:32,061 and not do anything that would 1519 01:17:32,094 --> 01:17:34,028 incriminate the city, 1520 01:17:34,063 --> 01:17:37,307 that would show the city liable. 1521 01:17:39,032 --> 01:17:40,207 They didn't want to be sued. 1522 01:17:40,241 --> 01:17:41,967 They didn't want to have to pay anything, 1523 01:17:42,002 --> 01:17:43,520 and that's understandable. 1524 01:17:44,210 --> 01:17:46,316 But they also have to admit 1525 01:17:46,351 --> 01:17:47,904 that they did something wrong. 1526 01:17:52,909 --> 01:17:54,117 When that happens, 1527 01:17:54,152 --> 01:17:55,671 that's the only thing you can do. 1528 01:17:55,705 --> 01:17:57,880 When you do something wrong, you admit it and move on. 1529 01:17:57,914 --> 01:17:58,846 You learn from it. 1530 01:18:03,955 --> 01:18:05,541 I got back to work and... 1531 01:18:06,509 --> 01:18:07,579 when the chief put out an order 1532 01:18:07,612 --> 01:18:09,407 that no one was allowed to talk to me. 1533 01:18:11,617 --> 01:18:15,829 They moved my desk to the one right in front of the captain's door, 1534 01:18:15,862 --> 01:18:18,521 so the captain could see me at all times. 1535 01:18:19,487 --> 01:18:22,214 You know? And they let me know that. 1536 01:18:23,768 --> 01:18:26,771 You know? "That's why we're putting you here, so we keep an eye on you." 1537 01:18:29,083 --> 01:18:35,675 I retired on October 31st of 1997, 1538 01:18:35,710 --> 01:18:36,746 I believe it was. 1539 01:18:38,782 --> 01:18:42,752 It was an agreement between myself and the city, 1540 01:18:42,787 --> 01:18:45,859 and I took a Duty Disability retirement. 1541 01:19:04,325 --> 01:19:06,672 Probably four years ago, I... 1542 01:19:06,707 --> 01:19:08,916 I would have been very reluctant to talk to you 1543 01:19:08,951 --> 01:19:11,228 about this, or about anything, you know. 1544 01:19:11,263 --> 01:19:13,369 I was still guarding myself, but... 1545 01:19:14,715 --> 01:19:17,373 you know, I don't feel that way now, 1546 01:19:17,407 --> 01:19:18,995 and chips will fall where they fall. 1547 01:19:30,523 --> 01:19:32,215 CAL: I was glad it was over with. I was happy. 1548 01:19:32,250 --> 01:19:33,561 My parents could move on now. 1549 01:19:35,115 --> 01:19:36,772 You know? And I guess at that time 1550 01:19:36,806 --> 01:19:38,877 I just thought, "Well, they gambled." You know? 1551 01:19:38,912 --> 01:19:41,811 They thought there was no evidence against them. 1552 01:19:41,846 --> 01:19:43,019 So they all gambled. 1553 01:19:43,433 --> 01:19:44,918 And, you know... 1554 01:19:44,952 --> 01:19:45,850 But then shortly after that, 1555 01:19:45,884 --> 01:19:47,886 it's like, "Well, that makes no sense." 1556 01:19:47,921 --> 01:19:50,682 And then, you know, I started to research 1557 01:19:50,716 --> 01:19:53,029 a little more on my own, talking to people and... 1558 01:19:54,513 --> 01:19:55,825 and, you know, every day that goes on, 1559 01:19:55,860 --> 01:19:57,620 it's harder and harder to believe. 1560 01:19:59,208 --> 01:20:00,761 This wasn't a group of six drifters 1561 01:20:00,796 --> 01:20:03,212 that came through town and had nothing to lose. 1562 01:20:03,246 --> 01:20:04,627 I mean, they had everything to lose. 1563 01:20:04,661 --> 01:20:06,008 And they did lose everything. 1564 01:20:08,458 --> 01:20:10,840 They wouldn't have been smart enough to pull it off. 1565 01:20:10,875 --> 01:20:12,669 You know? Now you may hate to say it, 1566 01:20:12,704 --> 01:20:14,982 but a few of them wouldn't have been smart enough to pull it off. 1567 01:20:15,017 --> 01:20:18,537 You're going to tell me that these simple people outfoxed the police? 1568 01:20:18,572 --> 01:20:21,989 That they didn't leave any evidence anywhere and... 1569 01:20:22,023 --> 01:20:25,855 All we can go on is a lot of common sense, really. 1570 01:20:25,889 --> 01:20:29,445 And, you know, what human nature is, I mean... 1571 01:20:29,478 --> 01:20:34,588 I find it impossible to believe that you're gonna have six people commit a crime, 1572 01:20:34,621 --> 01:20:37,039 within a three-four minute period, 1573 01:20:37,073 --> 01:20:39,627 that didn't go to work that day planning to harm anybody. 1574 01:20:39,662 --> 01:20:41,077 They didn't premeditate this, 1575 01:20:41,112 --> 01:20:42,976 there was no prior planning. 1576 01:20:43,010 --> 01:20:46,082 And yet, they are going to stick to it to this day. 1577 01:20:46,117 --> 01:20:49,085 It's pretty obvious to see that it really doesn't add up. 1578 01:20:52,019 --> 01:20:54,401 INTERVIEWER: What was it about this case that grabbed you? 1579 01:20:54,434 --> 01:20:56,748 STEVE KAPLAN: The lack of evidence. 1580 01:20:56,782 --> 01:21:01,684 There was no direct evidence of a beating and a murder. 1581 01:21:01,718 --> 01:21:06,654 There was nothing in the history of any of the six suspects, 1582 01:21:06,689 --> 01:21:09,380 then defendants, now convicted, 1583 01:21:09,416 --> 01:21:11,107 um, not defendants, 1584 01:21:11,142 --> 01:21:14,523 that suggested to me in any way they were violent. 1585 01:21:14,559 --> 01:21:17,079 Every time I looked at it, it made no sense, 1586 01:21:17,112 --> 01:21:18,874 and I started to see, 1587 01:21:18,907 --> 01:21:21,877 particularly as I read the news clippings 1588 01:21:21,911 --> 01:21:25,156 back in real time from theGreen Bay paper, 1589 01:21:25,190 --> 01:21:29,850 I could see the pressure on the police, on the D.A. 1590 01:21:29,885 --> 01:21:31,990 Somebody had to pay for this, 1591 01:21:32,025 --> 01:21:33,853 the death of Tom Monfils. 1592 01:21:34,579 --> 01:21:36,063 And it just struck me... 1593 01:21:36,892 --> 01:21:38,410 um... 1594 01:21:38,445 --> 01:21:41,068 uh, as odd that you would just say, 1595 01:21:41,103 --> 01:21:45,659 "Well, I don't want to look at the possibility 1596 01:21:45,693 --> 01:21:47,592 "that this may not have been a murder at all." 1597 01:21:52,804 --> 01:21:54,737 You know... 1598 01:21:54,771 --> 01:21:57,326 everybody calls it... It's the "Monfils Six." 1599 01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:58,948 It's the "Monfils case." 1600 01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:01,951 And we know the least about Tom. 1601 01:22:04,643 --> 01:22:06,128 CAL: He was my big brother. 1602 01:22:06,162 --> 01:22:10,925 He was also, in a sense, almost a parent to me. 1603 01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,067 INTERVIEWER: And what was the age gap between you and Tom again? 1604 01:22:14,101 --> 01:22:14,999 CAL: Ten years. 1605 01:22:17,691 --> 01:22:18,692 Where a lot of people are just kind of, 1606 01:22:18,726 --> 01:22:19,762 "Ah, that's my little brother. 1607 01:22:19,796 --> 01:22:21,452 "Go away. You're pestering me." 1608 01:22:21,487 --> 01:22:24,629 You know? It wasn't like that at all. 1609 01:22:24,663 --> 01:22:27,287 I mean, if there is any picture of a holiday 1610 01:22:27,321 --> 01:22:28,909 of the family together, 1611 01:22:28,943 --> 01:22:31,739 it's always my brother and myself sitting next to each other. 1612 01:22:31,773 --> 01:22:33,776 And then he had left for the Coast Guard 1613 01:22:34,535 --> 01:22:36,020 for quite a few years. 1614 01:22:36,054 --> 01:22:37,918 STEIN: And he was telling me, you know, some stories 1615 01:22:37,952 --> 01:22:40,610 about when he was in the Coast Guard and stuff like that. 1616 01:22:41,508 --> 01:22:44,304 His thing in the Coast Guard was 1617 01:22:44,338 --> 01:22:48,860 recovering people's bodies that had committed suicide 1618 01:22:48,894 --> 01:22:51,690 from jumping off of bridges, 1619 01:22:51,725 --> 01:22:54,900 and railroad trestles, and... 1620 01:22:55,660 --> 01:22:56,972 And the way he described it, 1621 01:22:57,005 --> 01:22:59,353 how they would just shackle themselves to this weight 1622 01:22:59,388 --> 01:23:01,010 so they couldn't get away from it. 1623 01:23:01,045 --> 01:23:03,943 And they were going down. And he says, "Well, they... 1624 01:23:03,978 --> 01:23:05,325 "When they wanted to kill themselves, 1625 01:23:05,359 --> 01:23:07,016 "they knew that they weren't gonna... 1626 01:23:07,050 --> 01:23:10,709 "they weren't gonna get all them chains unlocked and opened up and..." 1627 01:23:10,744 --> 01:23:12,987 And then when I found out he had a rope around his neck 1628 01:23:13,022 --> 01:23:15,507 and a weight at the end of it and stuff, 1629 01:23:15,541 --> 01:23:19,615 I was just like, "Man. That's almost like the stuff he was describing to me." 1630 01:23:20,547 --> 01:23:21,962 [BELL RINGING] 1631 01:23:21,996 --> 01:23:24,137 CAL: I was driving with Susan. It was just me and her, 1632 01:23:24,171 --> 01:23:27,278 and we were all making funeral arrangements. 1633 01:23:27,312 --> 01:23:29,349 And we'd just left the cemetery 1634 01:23:29,383 --> 01:23:30,798 and we were going to a floral shop 1635 01:23:30,833 --> 01:23:32,214 that was in the neighborhood. 1636 01:23:34,112 --> 01:23:36,873 So we had just pulled in the lot, and it was noon. 1637 01:23:36,907 --> 01:23:39,911 The noon news comes on the radio and says 1638 01:23:39,945 --> 01:23:42,568 that, you know, Tom was found with a rope 1639 01:23:42,603 --> 01:23:44,709 and a weight tied around his neck. 1640 01:23:44,743 --> 01:23:46,675 And we hadn't known that. 1641 01:23:46,710 --> 01:23:48,264 You know, Sue had obviously already known 1642 01:23:48,299 --> 01:23:50,818 that he had passed away, that he was found in the vat. 1643 01:23:50,853 --> 01:23:52,820 When she heard about this rope and weight, 1644 01:23:52,855 --> 01:23:56,169 she just keeled over in the passenger seat 1645 01:23:56,202 --> 01:24:00,966 and stared at the floor for a period of time, 1646 01:24:01,001 --> 01:24:04,039 and then said to me, "Take me to the bank." 1647 01:24:04,073 --> 01:24:07,076 We went to the bank and she wanted to go 1648 01:24:07,111 --> 01:24:09,906 in her security deposit box, which she did. 1649 01:24:09,941 --> 01:24:13,048 And she was just back there 15 to 20 minutes. 1650 01:24:13,082 --> 01:24:15,464 And then she came out. And then we ended up, from there, 1651 01:24:15,498 --> 01:24:17,017 we went to my sister's house. 1652 01:24:17,052 --> 01:24:18,743 I'm just wondering, what was she looking for? 1653 01:24:18,777 --> 01:24:21,710 Was she heading there to see if there was a note in there? 1654 01:24:21,746 --> 01:24:22,919 INTERVIEWER: Did you ask her at the time? 1655 01:24:22,954 --> 01:24:24,990 No, I didn't. 1656 01:24:25,025 --> 01:24:28,648 KAPLAN: What are you looking for in the safe deposit box? 1657 01:24:28,684 --> 01:24:30,030 Are you worried about... 1658 01:24:30,065 --> 01:24:32,032 Do you want to look at the insurance policies 1659 01:24:32,067 --> 01:24:35,311 to see if there is a suicide exclusion? 1660 01:24:35,346 --> 01:24:37,486 Because now you've made the same connection 1661 01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:39,452 that a lot of guys have made at the mill 1662 01:24:39,487 --> 01:24:41,076 that he died in the exact manner 1663 01:24:41,110 --> 01:24:44,355 that he used to talk about people killing themselves, 1664 01:24:44,389 --> 01:24:45,735 committing suicide by drowning 1665 01:24:45,770 --> 01:24:47,392 with heavy objects tied to them. 1666 01:24:47,427 --> 01:24:49,463 CAL: We went to the bank, and of course, I stood there and waited. 1667 01:24:49,498 --> 01:24:51,050 You know, I didn't go in with her. 1668 01:24:51,085 --> 01:24:52,846 She was in there 15-20 minutes, 1669 01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:54,779 and then we got in the car 1670 01:24:54,813 --> 01:24:56,298 and we drove to my sister's house. 1671 01:24:57,713 --> 01:24:59,611 It was just an odd thing. 1672 01:25:17,008 --> 01:25:20,529 KAPLAN: Susan Monfils had a conversation 1673 01:25:20,563 --> 01:25:23,773 with Tom's mother, Cal's mother also. 1674 01:25:23,808 --> 01:25:25,775 CAL: She sat at my mom and dad's house, 1675 01:25:25,809 --> 01:25:27,087 saying at the kitchen table, 1676 01:25:27,121 --> 01:25:28,468 saying that he committed suicide. 1677 01:25:28,502 --> 01:25:30,090 She repeated it several times. 1678 01:25:32,851 --> 01:25:33,921 And then there was some talk 1679 01:25:33,956 --> 01:25:35,026 about some notes that she had found 1680 01:25:35,059 --> 01:25:37,132 above the ceiling tiles in her bedroom. 1681 01:25:39,064 --> 01:25:41,688 KAPLAN: Susan Monfils testified 1682 01:25:41,722 --> 01:25:43,241 that after Tom's death, 1683 01:25:43,276 --> 01:25:45,726 she had pushed up a ceiling panel, 1684 01:25:45,761 --> 01:25:47,383 I think in the bedroom. 1685 01:25:47,418 --> 01:25:50,075 Because she was thinking about doing some renovations. 1686 01:25:50,110 --> 01:25:53,320 And down fell a business card 1687 01:25:53,355 --> 01:25:54,735 from the Green Bay Police, 1688 01:25:54,770 --> 01:25:56,737 and there were names written on it 1689 01:25:56,772 --> 01:25:58,394 of police officers. 1690 01:25:58,429 --> 01:26:00,603 And she was then asked, "Well, what did you do with it?" 1691 01:26:00,638 --> 01:26:01,777 "I burned it." 1692 01:26:03,261 --> 01:26:04,400 Sue knows a lot more 1693 01:26:05,263 --> 01:26:06,678 than she ever said. 1694 01:26:06,713 --> 01:26:09,233 And there's really nobody in the family that disagrees with that. 1695 01:26:10,441 --> 01:26:13,443 KAPLAN: And then the question was the knots. 1696 01:26:13,478 --> 01:26:15,755 What are the knots? 1697 01:26:15,791 --> 01:26:20,071 We find a guy living in the Minneapolis suburbs 1698 01:26:20,105 --> 01:26:23,730 who spent, I think it was at least four years in the Coast Guard, 1699 01:26:23,764 --> 01:26:25,732 and then the bulk of his career 1700 01:26:25,766 --> 01:26:27,871 in the U.S. Merchant Marine. 1701 01:26:27,906 --> 01:26:30,115 And he looks at the rope knots 1702 01:26:30,150 --> 01:26:33,291 that were tied first around Tom's neck, 1703 01:26:33,326 --> 01:26:36,639 and then to the handle of that 50-pound weight. 1704 01:26:36,674 --> 01:26:39,780 And he says those are two-half-hitch knots. 1705 01:26:39,815 --> 01:26:42,335 And those are taught in the Coast Guard. 1706 01:26:45,993 --> 01:26:49,445 Then Cal told me that he had 1707 01:26:49,480 --> 01:26:54,726 obtained knots from Tom's house after Tom's death. 1708 01:26:54,761 --> 01:26:56,934 He went looking for knots, 1709 01:26:56,969 --> 01:26:59,214 and he found knots that his brother had tied. 1710 01:26:59,248 --> 01:27:02,630 They were with a cord, kind of a thin cord, 1711 01:27:02,665 --> 01:27:04,702 tied around nails. 1712 01:27:04,736 --> 01:27:08,775 And he had, in the courtroom, 1713 01:27:08,809 --> 01:27:10,570 at the July 2015 hearing, 1714 01:27:10,603 --> 01:27:12,157 he had photographs of those knots, 1715 01:27:12,192 --> 01:27:14,367 and he also had the knots themselves. 1716 01:27:15,437 --> 01:27:16,714 They're the same knot 1717 01:27:16,748 --> 01:27:18,785 that was tied around Tom's neck 1718 01:27:18,818 --> 01:27:20,442 and to the rope handle. 1719 01:27:22,651 --> 01:27:24,584 There are seven people on the planet 1720 01:27:24,618 --> 01:27:27,138 who matter in terms of knot tying. 1721 01:27:27,172 --> 01:27:29,451 The six defendants and Tom Monfils. 1722 01:27:29,485 --> 01:27:32,764 Of the seven, the only one who was shown to have 1723 01:27:32,799 --> 01:27:34,110 the ability and propensity 1724 01:27:34,145 --> 01:27:36,975 to tie that two-half-hitch knot is the guy 1725 01:27:37,010 --> 01:27:39,737 who was in the Coast Guard, Tom Monfils. 1726 01:27:39,771 --> 01:27:43,568 Then I read Dr. Young's testimony. 1727 01:27:43,603 --> 01:27:46,053 I read her autopsy report. 1728 01:27:46,088 --> 01:27:47,883 It made no sense to me. 1729 01:27:47,916 --> 01:27:51,231 She ruled out suicide and ruled in homicide 1730 01:27:51,266 --> 01:27:54,752 on the basis of a variety of assumptions. 1731 01:27:54,786 --> 01:27:58,237 "Well, these injuries could only have been caused by a beating 1732 01:27:58,273 --> 01:28:02,277 "before he was put into the vat, or entered the vat. 1733 01:28:02,311 --> 01:28:04,451 How she could know that was beyond me. 1734 01:28:04,486 --> 01:28:05,728 It just made no sense. 1735 01:28:05,763 --> 01:28:07,316 Every one of those injuries could've been 1736 01:28:07,351 --> 01:28:08,213 suffered in the vat. 1737 01:28:08,248 --> 01:28:10,630 There is no injury here that tells me 1738 01:28:10,664 --> 01:28:13,495 that it could only have been inflicted by a beating. 1739 01:28:16,912 --> 01:28:21,434 He had a two-inch-long skull fracture, 1740 01:28:21,468 --> 01:28:25,645 the edges of which were parallel, 3/8 inch wide, 1741 01:28:25,679 --> 01:28:28,786 and 1/16th of an inch deep. 1742 01:28:28,820 --> 01:28:30,132 At his deposition, 1743 01:28:30,166 --> 01:28:33,031 the lead engineer for the mill said 1744 01:28:33,066 --> 01:28:34,688 that with the blades rotating, 1745 01:28:34,723 --> 01:28:38,382 Mr. Monfils, particularly with this 50-pound weight would've 1746 01:28:38,416 --> 01:28:40,763 been physically sucked 1747 01:28:40,798 --> 01:28:43,282 into contact with the blades. 1748 01:28:45,009 --> 01:28:48,323 The police never took 1749 01:28:48,357 --> 01:28:50,808 physical possession of the blades, 1750 01:28:50,842 --> 01:28:52,291 but they measured them. 1751 01:28:55,778 --> 01:28:57,297 They measured the edge 1752 01:28:58,609 --> 01:29:01,025 as 3/8 inch wide. 1753 01:29:01,059 --> 01:29:03,924 The exact width of this fracture. 1754 01:29:06,030 --> 01:29:09,032 And the thought that the police didn't know 1755 01:29:09,067 --> 01:29:11,518 that the dimensions of that fracture 1756 01:29:11,553 --> 01:29:17,075 just exactly match the width of those rotating blades is 1757 01:29:17,110 --> 01:29:19,181 a bridge too far for me to believe. 1758 01:29:25,843 --> 01:29:28,190 The most logical inference you can draw, 1759 01:29:28,224 --> 01:29:29,950 if we're going to draw inferences, 1760 01:29:29,985 --> 01:29:31,745 let's draw this one. 1761 01:29:31,780 --> 01:29:34,714 Tom Monfils had made up his mind 1762 01:29:34,748 --> 01:29:36,647 that his life was not worth living. 1763 01:29:38,062 --> 01:29:42,066 The last person to see him alive is Pete Delvoe, 1764 01:29:42,100 --> 01:29:44,275 a worker at the mill. And Pete says 1765 01:29:44,309 --> 01:29:49,004 he saw Tom walking toward the airlock entrance 1766 01:29:49,038 --> 01:29:51,075 to the number seven coop. 1767 01:29:51,109 --> 01:29:53,905 Now that airlock entrance leads to that coop, 1768 01:29:53,940 --> 01:29:55,562 and it also leads to the storage room 1769 01:29:55,597 --> 01:29:59,670 where Tom's jump rope was hanging on a railing. 1770 01:29:59,704 --> 01:30:01,016 The first couple of times 1771 01:30:01,050 --> 01:30:03,225 that Pete Delvoe was interviewed, he said, 1772 01:30:03,259 --> 01:30:06,331 "I saw him walking into the number seven coop." 1773 01:30:06,366 --> 01:30:08,023 Later on, he said, 1774 01:30:08,057 --> 01:30:10,094 "Well, I think that's where he was walking, 1775 01:30:10,128 --> 01:30:11,544 "'cause that's where the guys would have gone 1776 01:30:11,577 --> 01:30:14,823 "after finishing a task on the number seven machine." 1777 01:30:14,857 --> 01:30:16,618 But we know Mike Piaskowski 1778 01:30:16,652 --> 01:30:19,655 and Dennis Servais were sitting there at that time, 1779 01:30:19,690 --> 01:30:23,383 and both Dennis and Mike said, "He never came in here." 1780 01:30:26,421 --> 01:30:30,148 He had to have gone through the other door 1781 01:30:30,183 --> 01:30:33,289 in this... that was connected to this airlock 1782 01:30:33,324 --> 01:30:36,327 that led to what was called the three-four storage room 1783 01:30:36,361 --> 01:30:39,572 where the rope was hanging on a railing. 1784 01:30:40,124 --> 01:30:41,608 And we also know 1785 01:30:41,643 --> 01:30:45,300 that the 50-pound weight was sitting on the floor 1786 01:30:45,335 --> 01:30:47,718 right by the entrance to that airlock. 1787 01:30:50,375 --> 01:30:54,172 So Tom clearly knew where that weight was. 1788 01:30:54,207 --> 01:30:56,623 Anybody who worked on seven 1789 01:30:56,657 --> 01:30:58,591 knew where that weight was. 1790 01:30:58,625 --> 01:30:59,764 There was no evidence 1791 01:30:59,799 --> 01:31:01,973 that only Mike Piaskowski knew 1792 01:31:02,008 --> 01:31:04,459 where this rope and the weight were. 1793 01:31:06,219 --> 01:31:07,945 He picks it up by the handle, 1794 01:31:07,978 --> 01:31:09,187 walks through the airlock, 1795 01:31:09,222 --> 01:31:12,121 goes through the door to the storage room, 1796 01:31:12,156 --> 01:31:15,952 takes his rope off the railing, 1797 01:31:15,987 --> 01:31:17,402 and proceeds unnoticed. 1798 01:31:17,437 --> 01:31:19,853 And this was an isolated area 1799 01:31:19,888 --> 01:31:22,718 now that he is in, in the mill. 1800 01:31:22,753 --> 01:31:26,446 He ties one end of that jump rope around his neck, 1801 01:31:26,481 --> 01:31:29,173 the other end to the handle of that weight. 1802 01:31:29,207 --> 01:31:33,764 Uh, and he knew that he needed the 50-pound weight 1803 01:31:33,798 --> 01:31:35,455 to keep himself submerged 1804 01:31:35,490 --> 01:31:38,147 so that he would not do what a normal person would do, 1805 01:31:38,182 --> 01:31:40,529 which is to fight to... 1806 01:31:40,564 --> 01:31:43,221 struggle to the top of the surface and breathe. 1807 01:31:51,228 --> 01:31:52,507 INTERVIEWER: Do you think that... 1808 01:31:54,370 --> 01:31:57,891 Sue would ever say if she knew anything else? 1809 01:31:57,925 --> 01:31:59,168 I don't think so. 1810 01:32:01,688 --> 01:32:03,138 I think if, you know, 1811 01:32:03,966 --> 01:32:05,520 one person can hold it inside. 1812 01:32:08,592 --> 01:32:09,523 But not six. 1813 01:32:13,010 --> 01:32:14,356 REY MOORE: The truth is going to come out. 1814 01:32:14,389 --> 01:32:16,496 I mean, it may not be today. 1815 01:32:16,531 --> 01:32:19,395 It may not be tomorrow. It may be five years from now. 1816 01:32:19,430 --> 01:32:21,190 But the truth will come out. 1817 01:32:21,225 --> 01:32:22,502 And when the truth comes out, 1818 01:32:22,537 --> 01:32:25,469 and my kids can walk with their head held high 1819 01:32:25,505 --> 01:32:27,127 and know that the world knows 1820 01:32:27,162 --> 01:32:28,818 that their father is not a murderer. 1821 01:32:30,786 --> 01:32:31,753 Then it'll be worth it. 1822 01:32:31,787 --> 01:32:33,755 I brought that tape to work. 1823 01:32:33,789 --> 01:32:34,859 I played that tape. 1824 01:32:34,894 --> 01:32:36,378 It was no secret. 1825 01:32:38,242 --> 01:32:39,588 That was all I did. 1826 01:32:41,038 --> 01:32:42,591 I had no knowledge 1827 01:32:42,626 --> 01:32:44,731 that anybody was going to kill Tom. 1828 01:32:44,766 --> 01:32:46,594 NEWSREADER: Michael Johnson, serving his sentence 1829 01:32:46,630 --> 01:32:49,460 in another Tennessee prison, tells what he saw. 1830 01:32:49,494 --> 01:32:51,773 You know, people weren't throwing things around, 1831 01:32:51,807 --> 01:32:52,773 or stomping on the floor, 1832 01:32:52,808 --> 01:32:54,707 or banging their fists on the table or... 1833 01:32:56,467 --> 01:32:58,607 It didn't seem like that kind of an atmosphere to me. 1834 01:32:58,642 --> 01:33:01,058 You know? I didn't see any violent reaction at all. 1835 01:33:01,092 --> 01:33:02,438 People were just interested in it. 1836 01:33:02,473 --> 01:33:04,199 I mean, you know, they wanted to listen to it. 1837 01:33:04,233 --> 01:33:05,303 You know, what was on it? 1838 01:33:06,753 --> 01:33:09,584 Myself and the other men are innocent men 1839 01:33:09,618 --> 01:33:12,207 convicted by state-sponsored perjury, 1840 01:33:12,241 --> 01:33:15,969 coerced by Detective Randy Winkler, 1841 01:33:16,004 --> 01:33:17,177 and forced into the mouth 1842 01:33:17,212 --> 01:33:19,628 of Brian Kellner through threats. 1843 01:33:20,594 --> 01:33:21,596 Um... 1844 01:33:23,183 --> 01:33:24,460 Threats and intimidation. 1845 01:33:26,670 --> 01:33:28,913 That's fundamentally against the principles 1846 01:33:28,948 --> 01:33:30,327 this country is founded on. 1847 01:33:34,298 --> 01:33:36,264 There is no other evidence. 1848 01:33:39,406 --> 01:33:41,754 PIASKOWSKI: I was in the gymnasium doing some extra work. 1849 01:33:43,100 --> 01:33:47,449 One of the sergeants from cell block one hollered out. 1850 01:33:47,483 --> 01:33:49,693 "Hey, Piaskowski, come here once!" 1851 01:33:49,727 --> 01:33:51,695 He asked me if I... 1852 01:33:51,728 --> 01:33:54,352 if I was the guy with the Monfils case. 1853 01:33:54,387 --> 01:33:56,216 And I said "Yeah." He says, "Well, you're on TV right now. 1854 01:33:56,251 --> 01:33:57,459 "The judge has made a decision. 1855 01:33:57,493 --> 01:33:59,081 "You're going to want to see this." 1856 01:33:59,116 --> 01:34:00,669 And in the sergeant's quarters, 1857 01:34:00,704 --> 01:34:02,326 there were several guys there like that. 1858 01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:04,708 And they're all like, "Yeah, yeah. You're going home. 1859 01:34:04,742 --> 01:34:06,295 "You're going home." 1860 01:34:06,330 --> 01:34:08,919 Mike's appeal had been granted. 1861 01:34:08,952 --> 01:34:09,851 [MIMICS SCREAMING IN EXCITEMENT] 1862 01:34:09,885 --> 01:34:12,129 I scream, I scream! 1863 01:34:12,163 --> 01:34:14,510 I'm at work and I'm screaming. 1864 01:34:14,545 --> 01:34:15,822 I didn't know what they were talking about. 1865 01:34:15,857 --> 01:34:18,237 And he said, "Yeah, they've got it on TV. 1866 01:34:18,273 --> 01:34:20,413 "It'll be coming on again in a minute." 1867 01:34:20,447 --> 01:34:22,829 FEMALE NEWSREADER: A huge decision from a federal judge 1868 01:34:22,864 --> 01:34:24,313 in Milwaukee today, 1869 01:34:24,348 --> 01:34:27,385 overturning the five-year-old conviction of Mike Piaskowski. 1870 01:34:27,420 --> 01:34:28,973 In this 25-page decision, 1871 01:34:29,008 --> 01:34:31,907 Federal Judge Myron Gordon says there is no evidence 1872 01:34:31,942 --> 01:34:35,635 tying Mike Piaskowski to the murder of Tom Monfils. 1873 01:34:54,205 --> 01:34:55,448 Probably the best day of my life, 1874 01:34:55,482 --> 01:34:56,656 short of my daughter's birth 1875 01:34:56,691 --> 01:35:00,004 and my marriage and all those usual things. 1876 01:35:00,039 --> 01:35:01,903 Best unusual day of my life. 1877 01:35:01,937 --> 01:35:04,940 You only get probably one miracle in your life. 1878 01:35:05,769 --> 01:35:07,046 And I've had it. 1879 01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:09,151 And Mike's had it. Whatever. 1880 01:35:09,186 --> 01:35:10,325 We've had it. 1881 01:35:12,948 --> 01:35:14,432 PIASKOWSKI: And the first thing I wanted was 1882 01:35:14,467 --> 01:35:16,503 a Whopper, of all things, if you think about it. 1883 01:35:16,538 --> 01:35:19,196 Anything... I'm craving a Whopper. 1884 01:35:19,230 --> 01:35:20,197 INTERVIEWER: How was that Whopper? 1885 01:35:20,231 --> 01:35:21,923 It was very good. Very, very good. 1886 01:35:21,957 --> 01:35:24,648 TV HOST: What else do you find that you appreciate? 1887 01:35:26,030 --> 01:35:27,237 Oh. 1888 01:35:27,929 --> 01:35:28,964 The toilet seat. 1889 01:35:30,483 --> 01:35:32,796 Metal eating utensils. 1890 01:35:33,313 --> 01:35:35,143 A glass glass. 1891 01:35:35,177 --> 01:35:36,489 A ceramic coffee cup. 1892 01:35:37,145 --> 01:35:38,215 Little things like that. 1893 01:35:38,249 --> 01:35:39,561 On my left forearm, 1894 01:35:39,594 --> 01:35:41,528 I have the date and exoneree. 1895 01:35:41,563 --> 01:35:43,530 I don't know if you guys can see it or not, but it's... 1896 01:35:44,117 --> 01:35:45,255 [INTERVIEWER LAUGHS] 1897 01:35:45,291 --> 01:35:46,430 But it's here. 1898 01:35:46,464 --> 01:35:47,844 See if you can get it in there. 1899 01:35:48,777 --> 01:35:50,641 ZAKOWSKI: No, he wasn't exonerated. 1900 01:35:51,434 --> 01:35:52,781 He was not exonerated. 1901 01:35:52,816 --> 01:35:56,026 INTERVIEWER: Okay. What is the... Correct us. 1902 01:35:57,234 --> 01:36:00,582 He was mistakenly let go. That's what... 1903 01:36:02,342 --> 01:36:05,035 I asked one of the justices who I respect, 1904 01:36:06,208 --> 01:36:07,382 "What about the rope and weight?" 1905 01:36:07,416 --> 01:36:08,901 And he said, "What rope and weight?" 1906 01:36:08,934 --> 01:36:12,249 And I'm thinking, "Well, are we talking about the same case? 1907 01:36:12,282 --> 01:36:14,734 "Did you read the same transcript?" 1908 01:36:14,769 --> 01:36:19,496 It's my understanding that the way it was presented 1909 01:36:19,532 --> 01:36:22,984 was that Mike Piaskowski was guilty of the murder 1910 01:36:24,261 --> 01:36:28,541 and not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, 1911 01:36:28,575 --> 01:36:31,889 which is what the crime was that he was charged with 1912 01:36:31,924 --> 01:36:33,477 and found guilty of. 1913 01:36:33,511 --> 01:36:35,548 They were charged with party to the crime 1914 01:36:35,582 --> 01:36:37,343 of first-degree intentional homicide. 1915 01:36:37,377 --> 01:36:40,139 This was a collective group act, 1916 01:36:40,173 --> 01:36:41,934 and that's what they were charged as. 1917 01:36:41,968 --> 01:36:45,282 It wasn't that all six of them tied the rope around his neck, 1918 01:36:45,316 --> 01:36:46,939 or threw him in the vat. 1919 01:36:46,973 --> 01:36:49,942 It was that they are all part of this sequence of events. 1920 01:36:50,389 --> 01:36:51,875 He didn't hear 1921 01:36:51,909 --> 01:36:54,739 half the evidence against Piaskowski. 1922 01:36:54,773 --> 01:36:56,638 About the rope, the weight, 1923 01:36:56,672 --> 01:36:58,709 the significance of his testimony, 1924 01:36:58,743 --> 01:37:01,160 tying himself to Kutska and being there at the time 1925 01:37:01,193 --> 01:37:02,644 that he was beaten 1926 01:37:02,678 --> 01:37:04,818 and then having the same motive. 1927 01:37:04,853 --> 01:37:08,995 So he wasn't... In our opinion, he wasn't exonerated. 1928 01:37:09,030 --> 01:37:10,307 He was released. 1929 01:37:10,341 --> 01:37:13,448 If he did do it, he's gotten away with it. 1930 01:37:13,482 --> 01:37:15,657 And if he didn't do it, 1931 01:37:15,691 --> 01:37:18,833 the other five should be with him and gotten out as well. 1932 01:37:18,867 --> 01:37:19,937 Why is that... 1933 01:37:19,972 --> 01:37:22,837 Why is there justice for just Piaskowski? 1934 01:37:32,674 --> 01:37:36,643 KAPLAN: In February of 2014, 1935 01:37:36,678 --> 01:37:39,646 my partner, John Lundqvist, 1936 01:37:39,681 --> 01:37:41,614 who was willing to help me, 1937 01:37:41,648 --> 01:37:44,306 um, with the burdens of this case, 1938 01:37:44,341 --> 01:37:46,308 he interviewed Brian Kellner. 1939 01:37:46,343 --> 01:37:48,724 And during the course of the... 1940 01:37:48,759 --> 01:37:51,555 the one hour or so he spent with Brian, 1941 01:37:51,589 --> 01:37:53,591 Brian says to John 1942 01:37:54,489 --> 01:37:56,732 there was never any conversation 1943 01:37:56,767 --> 01:38:00,425 by Keith on that occasion at the Fox Den Bar 1944 01:38:00,460 --> 01:38:02,737 about Tom Monfils, period. 1945 01:38:02,773 --> 01:38:03,705 Nothing. 1946 01:38:03,739 --> 01:38:07,467 Not even a hypothetical conversation. 1947 01:38:07,502 --> 01:38:09,193 It simply never happened. 1948 01:38:09,228 --> 01:38:10,401 It was all made up. 1949 01:38:11,471 --> 01:38:13,404 [KELLNER READING] 1950 01:39:18,849 --> 01:39:20,540 WILLIAMS: He should have stuck up for himself, 1951 01:39:20,575 --> 01:39:24,061 or fought for help somewhere, somehow 1952 01:39:24,096 --> 01:39:25,235 to try to get this. 1953 01:39:27,409 --> 01:39:28,478 But when... 1954 01:39:30,447 --> 01:39:33,795 you're a person who loves your children 1955 01:39:33,829 --> 01:39:35,279 and doesn't want to see them taken away 1956 01:39:35,314 --> 01:39:36,349 and put in foster care, 1957 01:39:36,384 --> 01:39:38,558 or God only knows where... 1958 01:39:41,353 --> 01:39:43,770 you know, desperate times sometimes 1959 01:39:44,702 --> 01:39:46,325 make you do desperate things, 1960 01:39:46,359 --> 01:39:47,809 such as sign a piece of paper. 1961 01:39:52,779 --> 01:39:55,403 KAPLAN: John leaves Minneapolis 1962 01:39:55,437 --> 01:39:58,889 and he's made it, I think, just to Wausau or just beyond, 1963 01:39:59,614 --> 01:40:01,305 uh, just east of there, 1964 01:40:01,340 --> 01:40:05,102 and I get a phone call from Mike Piaskowski saying 1965 01:40:05,137 --> 01:40:07,001 Brian had died that morning. 1966 01:40:13,386 --> 01:40:14,698 You know, it... 1967 01:40:17,356 --> 01:40:18,771 It was unfortunate 1968 01:40:19,392 --> 01:40:20,704 that... 1969 01:40:21,118 --> 01:40:22,050 he lied. 1970 01:40:22,085 --> 01:40:25,536 It was unfortunate that by the time he was 1971 01:40:25,571 --> 01:40:29,713 ready to cleanse himself as it were, 1972 01:40:30,403 --> 01:40:32,957 and try to make amends 1973 01:40:34,097 --> 01:40:35,615 for what he had done, 1974 01:40:35,650 --> 01:40:38,825 that, um, it was too late. 1975 01:40:39,895 --> 01:40:40,827 He died. 1976 01:40:43,554 --> 01:40:46,246 So that was tragic 1977 01:40:46,281 --> 01:40:48,663 for many, many reasons. 1978 01:40:52,011 --> 01:40:55,601 There's so much judgment that goes with this, 1979 01:40:56,636 --> 01:40:58,742 so many opinions, 1980 01:40:58,776 --> 01:41:03,367 it's hard to be associated with any part of this 1981 01:41:03,402 --> 01:41:05,749 and not have some kind of stigma. 1982 01:41:05,782 --> 01:41:09,477 I don't raise a flag of "I'm Brian Kellner's daughter," 1983 01:41:09,511 --> 01:41:10,374 you know, kind of thing. 1984 01:41:10,409 --> 01:41:11,686 I don't... 1985 01:41:11,719 --> 01:41:13,343 I talk about my dad. 1986 01:41:13,377 --> 01:41:17,485 But I don't talk about this for my dad, you know, kind of thing. 1987 01:41:17,519 --> 01:41:19,521 I talk about my dad as being my dad. 1988 01:41:19,556 --> 01:41:23,525 Not as being, you know, the key witness in the Monfils case. 1989 01:41:23,559 --> 01:41:26,287 He was my father first before he was a witness. 1990 01:41:35,572 --> 01:41:36,675 WINKLER: I think back... 1991 01:41:41,302 --> 01:41:43,994 My career ended abruptly. 1992 01:41:44,925 --> 01:41:47,031 Not the way I intended it to end. 1993 01:41:49,620 --> 01:41:51,346 But until that point, 1994 01:41:51,380 --> 01:41:54,210 I had the most fantastic life. 1995 01:41:55,109 --> 01:41:56,558 [CAR APPROACHING] 1996 01:41:56,593 --> 01:41:58,215 I did experience... 1997 01:42:01,322 --> 01:42:02,219 being a cop. 1998 01:42:04,152 --> 01:42:05,257 I lived my dream. 1999 01:42:07,431 --> 01:42:09,639 Short, but I lived it. 2000 01:42:12,402 --> 01:42:15,991 Throughout this entire process, I think I've been... 2001 01:42:16,337 --> 01:42:17,303 um... 2002 01:42:19,616 --> 01:42:21,652 labeled as the one that solved this case. 2003 01:42:21,687 --> 01:42:23,861 But it wasn't me alone. 2004 01:42:23,896 --> 01:42:26,105 I just either got the... 2005 01:42:27,486 --> 01:42:28,763 got the credit, or the blame. 2006 01:42:28,797 --> 01:42:31,110 [LAUGHING] Depends on how you look at it. 2007 01:42:35,287 --> 01:42:36,184 I won the lottery. 2008 01:42:37,081 --> 01:42:39,532 I don't know how else to put it. 2009 01:42:39,567 --> 01:42:42,984 The legal system in our country is the best in the world, 2010 01:42:43,018 --> 01:42:44,641 except for the death penalty. 2011 01:42:44,675 --> 01:42:47,540 It's the best in world, but it makes mistakes. 2012 01:42:47,575 --> 01:42:50,059 And this again is another one. 2013 01:42:50,094 --> 01:42:52,889 And when they make a mistake, it's a horrible one. 2014 01:42:52,925 --> 01:42:54,202 In the big picture, you know, 2015 01:42:54,237 --> 01:42:56,273 the huge mistake they made in our case, 2016 01:42:56,308 --> 01:42:59,759 and against me in particular, the system worked. 2017 01:42:59,794 --> 01:43:02,728 The appeals system allowed me to regain my freedom. 2018 01:43:02,762 --> 01:43:04,074 It's a mistake. 2019 01:43:04,108 --> 01:43:05,523 Things happen. Things happen. 2020 01:43:05,558 --> 01:43:09,321 Unfortunately, the mistake continues for my co-defendants. 2021 01:43:12,047 --> 01:43:15,085 You have to keep that light at the end of the tunnel, 2022 01:43:15,119 --> 01:43:17,225 remain faithful in the system. 2023 01:43:17,260 --> 01:43:20,434 If you lose hope, you might as well lose your life. 2024 01:43:20,469 --> 01:43:24,750 'Cause a life without hope of some kind is a pretty shitty way of life. 2025 01:43:32,620 --> 01:43:36,348 CAL: I haven't seen Tom's children in... 20 years. 2026 01:43:38,039 --> 01:43:40,766 I think my daughter is 24, 2027 01:43:40,800 --> 01:43:42,906 and she doesn't even know who they are. 2028 01:43:42,940 --> 01:43:44,666 She's never met 'em. 2029 01:43:44,701 --> 01:43:47,221 All right. I shouldn't say that. Younger, she's met 'em, 2030 01:43:47,255 --> 01:43:49,499 but she has no recollection of it at all. 2031 01:43:50,396 --> 01:43:51,708 [INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION] 2032 01:43:51,742 --> 01:43:55,021 CAL: And I think it's very hard for people 2033 01:43:55,056 --> 01:43:57,990 to understand where I'm coming from. 2034 01:43:58,023 --> 01:44:00,164 See, people, they immediately jump to conclusions 2035 01:44:00,199 --> 01:44:02,097 and think, oh, like I'm a sellout. 2036 01:44:02,132 --> 01:44:03,409 Or like "Oh, my God, that's terrible." 2037 01:44:03,443 --> 01:44:06,791 Like, "He's with those guys," you know? 2038 01:44:06,826 --> 01:44:09,243 If I really thought any of these guys had anything to do with that, 2039 01:44:09,277 --> 01:44:11,416 outside of playing the tape, 2040 01:44:11,452 --> 01:44:14,593 you know, a little verbal harassment, I... 2041 01:44:14,627 --> 01:44:16,284 you know, I'd have no use for the guys. 2042 01:44:16,318 --> 01:44:18,735 You know, I am... I am for the death penalty. 2043 01:44:18,769 --> 01:44:20,564 If you can prove it, 2044 01:44:20,599 --> 01:44:22,255 I am an eye-for-an-eye person. 2045 01:44:23,429 --> 01:44:24,396 But... 2046 01:44:25,603 --> 01:44:26,880 this just doesn't add up. 2047 01:44:29,573 --> 01:44:33,439 If everything was reversed and Tom was in jail right now, 2048 01:44:33,474 --> 01:44:36,270 my family would be as vocal as anybody 2049 01:44:36,304 --> 01:44:38,582 and trying get him out of prison 2050 01:44:38,617 --> 01:44:40,204 and prove his innocence. 2051 01:44:41,791 --> 01:44:44,243 INTERVIEWER: What do you think Tom would want at this point? 2052 01:44:55,772 --> 01:44:56,945 I don't know. That's a tough... 2053 01:44:56,980 --> 01:44:58,291 That's a tough question. 2054 01:45:21,901 --> 01:45:23,246 FEMALE NEWSREADER: Dale Basten is now serving 2055 01:45:23,282 --> 01:45:26,112 his life sentence at Green Bay Correctional. 2056 01:45:26,147 --> 01:45:29,219 Well, I'll be 60 on my next birthday. So... 2057 01:45:30,772 --> 01:45:32,429 I don't know what to say. 2058 01:45:32,464 --> 01:45:34,431 I suppose I have a very good chance 2059 01:45:34,466 --> 01:45:35,501 of dying in prison. 2060 01:45:37,020 --> 01:45:38,332 [MELANCHOLY MUSIC PLAYING]