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"NARRATOR". Upon the 20th anniversary of the
publication of The Dark Knight Returns...
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...DC Comics celebrated the book
with the release of the Absolute edition.
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In the opening pages was an introduction
written by the author himself...
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...Frank Miller.
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MILLER: When I first, um,
came into the field of comic books...
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...I was a kid from Vermont.
I was 17 years old.
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I moved to New York City.
The very generous Neal Adams...
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...was happy to tell me I didn't have a
prayer of getting anywhere in comics.
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But I kept coming back
and so he finally got me my first job.
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Editor after editor
would tell me the same thing:
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"Why are you doing this?"
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We'll be out of business in five years.
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"There will be no comic books."
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That was the conventional
wisdom of the time.
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[TYPEWRITER KEYS CLACKING]
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USLAN: I think Frank's reference
to comics being irrelevant...
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...was because, well,
they were irrelevant to adults.
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They were probably
irrelevant to society as a whole.
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O'NEIL: In one of the low points,
comics seemed to be...
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...a roller-coaster.
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And there have been, at least twice
since I've been doing this...
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...when, you know, I was betting
they wouldn't survive another 10 years.
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GOODMAN: They weren't a venue
for deep-layered literary conversation...
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...for rich characters.
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At most, they were sort of looked at
as, uh, an argument between...
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...whether they were just
sort of colorful icons...
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...or capturing something important
about adolescent angst.
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But that was kind of the extent of it.
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Even with Batman, a lot of comics
and a lot of comic book, uh, stories...
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...were very, uh, unrealistic and fantasy,
almost bordering on sci-fi.
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TIMM: They'd been gradually getting
a little bit more sophisticated.
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Comic book fans from, like, the
'50s and '60s and even the '70s...
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...had all graduated or grown up and they've
kind of brought their comics with them.
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Competition was coming along, you know...
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...as movies began to be able
to do better special effects.
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That was some new competition out there.
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And the comics were not evolving
and growing.
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[THUNDER RUMBLING]
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TIMM: So Denny O'Neil as a writer,
Neal Adams as artist...
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...helped introduce the world back to
the original dark and serious Batman...
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...to help overcome it.
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Well, that was great into the '70s.
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And that did help
open the door to older readers.
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MORRISON: We'd seen a great floundering
of talent in comics in the '70s.
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We'd seen characters being taken into
directions no one could have imagined...
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...and dealing with subject matter that
had been impossible prior to that time.
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But suddenly after around 1978 or even
after the bicentennial in America...
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...there was a big shift towards
much more escapist material.
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And, unfortunately,
in the comics that meant...
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...for a kind of bland recycling of the
cliches that had existed prior to this...
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...you know, fantastic invasion of
the counter-culture in the '70s.
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And between 1979 and '82,
I didn't look at any comics at all.
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CARLIN: Obviously, the comic book companies
did not want that to happen.
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And at Marvel Comics in the early '80s,
there was kind of a resurgence.
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And, uh, Frank was a big part of that.
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So they got their act together...
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...and DC then was suddenly finding
that they needed to be competitive again.
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USLAN: The first huge change
took place for me in 1978...
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...when probably the greatest graphic
storyteller in the history of comics...
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...Will Eisner, introduced
the graphic novel.
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His first graphic novel,
A Contract with God...
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...shattered all of our visions...
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...of what a comic book was
and what a comic book could be.
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MORRISON: I've always likened it
to the auteur era in Hollywood...
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...where you had Scorsese and Altman and
Coppola and those people coming through.
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And the type of cinema they did
was very much like...
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...this anti-establishment vein of comic
books that was going on at the same time.
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MILLER: It left a way for people like me
and Alan Moore to play to that audience.
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To, um, do stories...
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...that were beyond the understanding
of an 8-year-old.
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To me and to many other artists...
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...it gave us the sense that what
we could do would be permanent...
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...and not ephemeral.
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Not a monthly, um, pamphlet...
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...that would come and go and be forgot.
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And I remember reading that
and saying, "This is what I want to do."
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I want to have a shelf of work
that exists forever."
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"NARRATOR". Jenette Kahn, a New York publisher
of a popular children's magazine...
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...was tapped as the next leader
of DC Comics.
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Because of her dynamic energy and her
ability to see the world of comics...
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...as a place where incredible growth
can transpire...
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...she was willing to take the risk
and lure the best talent possible...
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...to help stabilize the
fledgling business.
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KAHN: I always believed that we would
never succeed as a comic company.
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Never grow, never reach the heights
that we were finally able to...
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...unless we took risk.
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And, uh, it was one of my maxims at DC...
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...that perhaps you've heard from other
people, but unless we were writing off...
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...a certain amount of material every year,
we weren't doing our job.
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Because when you risk, you're going to also risk
failure, and that comes with the territory.
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You just hope that you have enough successes
to far outweigh those failures you had.
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But you need failure.
If you don't have those failures...
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...then you really aren't taking the risks
that will propel you into new territory.
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00:09:04,586 --> 00:09:06,506
She and Dick Giordano
who she was working with...
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00:09:06,671 --> 00:09:10,300
...were very interested in the idea
of new formats in expanding comics out.
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KAHN: I always believed
that comics were an art form...
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00:09:21,519 --> 00:09:23,396
...an art form clearly
tied with commerce...
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...but that, uh, they weren't just as they
were as I had known them growing up...
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...a disposable medium for kids.
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Part of the inspiration was that
I had looked with a great deal of envy...
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...at the French albums
that were being published.
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They were published on beautiful paper,
incredible art.
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And seemed to be, uh, incredibly smart.
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They could tell any kind of story.
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They could tell very sophisticated adult stories
that touched on serious subject matter...
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...at the same time
that they entertained.
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I thought that there were a lot of things
in those comics that we could adopt...
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00:10:04,104 --> 00:10:05,904
...if we could only
figure out the economics.
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00:10:07,732 --> 00:10:11,945
"NARRATOR". Jenette Kahn knew
that DC Comics was ready to produce...
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...a more sophisticated book...
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...a mature storyline
for a hungry audience.
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This was the approach Marvel took
with Daredevil in hiring Frank Miller.
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DC Comics wanted a piece of that action.
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Frank Miller had been doing, um, some really
interesting stuff over at Marvel with Daredevil.
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Urn, it kind of started off kind of as a standard
superhero comic strip with interesting visuals.
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But over time it got a bit darker
and more mature.
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I had been doing Daredevil,
you know, prior to Frank coming on board.
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When Frank came on he was, uh, you know,
this kid, this skinny kid from Vermont...
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...who, uh, really nobody, uh,
had any high expectations for.
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We went through a lot of changes
through those three years.
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You know, Frank started out, uh,
penciling and not writing.
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O'NEIL: He was in that place that guys get
when they are absorbing everything.
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Those that I think
eventually hit the ball out of the park...
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...look at everything
and look at it closely.
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And then spend a lot of time
sitting at the drawing board.
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JANSON:
That evolution, uh, garnered and created...
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...a great deal of trust
between the two of us.
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I'm very proud
of the work we've done on Daredevil.
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"NARRATOR". The DC executives kept their
finger on the pulse of the comics industry.
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They learned of the success
of Frank Miller at Marvel.
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Miller was the perfect combined example
of writer and artist...
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...that Jenette knew she had to entice
over to the DC side.
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Although comic book writers and artists
migrate back and forth from DC to Marvel...
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...the intentional luring of a client
was something yet to be seen.
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But desperate times
called for a new perspective.
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If DC was to survive, it needed to find
the perfect writer-and-artist team...
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...that could catapult the company forward.
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KAHN:
He was absolutely pushing the envelope.
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But I felt we needed an injection of
that at DC. And I asked Frank to lunch.
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In those days there was
a Warner dining room in New York...
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...and we went to lunch
and I said to Frank:
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"Tell me what you most of all
would want to do in comics.
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Whatever it is,
I will try to make it happen."
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Jenette and I, um,
had several conversations...
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...but one of them was particularly long.
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It might have been as long as three hours.
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Um, and she and Joe Orlando...
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00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:16,462
...um, who was one of the editors
at the time...
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...um, had asked me what I wanted most.
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And I said "freedom."
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I also made an issue of copyright.
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Had Frank tried to do
that 10 years earlier...
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...I'm not sure the door
would've been open for him.
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But at that point,
comics were undergoing...
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...a kind of content of revolution.
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Creators had no share in their creations.
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And there were no royalties,
there were no reprint payments.
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You didn't even get your artwork back.
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And all of these seemed like
just terrible inequities.
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So the very first thing I wanted to do when I
came to DC was to change that landscape...
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...and to assure creators,
and assure them in writing...
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...that they would, in fact, have a share
in all the things that they created.
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Janette was...
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00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,682
...a captivating conversationalist.
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And they were willing to take a chance
on giving me complete freedom.
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And, um, I used it to my best advantage.
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KAHN: Frank said,
"Well, I have this idea about a ronin."
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And I actually am a huge aficionado
and devotee of samurai movies.
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So I said, "Oh, a ronin, of course.
What a great idea."
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So we're talking about the ronin
and he's laying it out for me...
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...and he said, "I want to do this on really
high-end, beautiful paper, glossy stock."
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00:15:01,567 --> 00:15:06,697
I don't want to do traditional color separations.
I want Lynn Varley to do the painting."
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And I said, "Let me see.
Let me see if this is possible."
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I came back from the lunch
and I talked to Paul Levitz...
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...who, uh, was one of my
tremendous allies at DC.
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And also we talked to Bob Rozakis and he
said, "Let's try to figure this out."
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O'NEIL:
Frank was clearly on his way up.
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And I think he had enough ambition
to see where the main chances were.
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I would love to have a pint of his blood
put into my arm...
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...so I could have just a pint's worth
of, uh, that kind of realism...
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...about, you know,
how the business works...
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...and how you keep from starving.
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NARRATOR: Ronin would become Frank Miller's
first creator-owned project for DC Comics.
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00:15:58,124 --> 00:16:01,169
It was his entrance into the world of DC...
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...and a new era where he would be given
artistic freedom.
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CARLIN: Ronin, which was like this really
crazy, science-fiction extravaganza thing...
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...it was definitely a lot more mature,
more adult.
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"NARRATOR".
It was a striking read for the fans...
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...and something that felt like a novel.
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I had done a 13-issue run on Daredevil.
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Which, really, is structurally a novel.
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It's an unplanned one.
193
00:16:32,408 --> 00:16:34,327
But when I did Ronin...
194
00:16:34,535 --> 00:16:38,414
...I was deliberately
after a novel structure.
195
00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:43,711
"NARRATOR". This was a raw comic book
without pages of advertisements...
196
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,424
...presented in a way that only fans
could have dreamed of at the time.
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00:17:01,812 --> 00:17:07,193
MILLER:
Later, Dick Giordano, um, God rest him...
198
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:10,488
...he approached me and he said:
199
00:17:11,405 --> 00:17:13,032
"Do you want to take a crack at Batman?"
200
00:17:13,616 --> 00:17:15,910
[TYPEWRITER KEYS CLACKING]
201
00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:28,839
Well, at first I was scared shitless...
202
00:17:29,048 --> 00:17:33,010
...because Batman struck me
as one of the icons.
203
00:17:33,219 --> 00:17:37,932
One of the sort of the triad
of really big characters.
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There's Superman, there's Batman,
there's Wonder Woman.
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00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:43,980
And I thought, "What can I offer?"
206
00:17:44,188 --> 00:17:45,648
What can I possibly offer...
207
00:17:45,856 --> 00:17:49,443
"...that Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams
didn't already do?"
208
00:17:52,196 --> 00:17:55,741
I was walking through the hallways at DC...
209
00:17:55,950 --> 00:18:00,746
...and Dick Giordano just asked me,
"Frank is working on a Batman project...
210
00:18:00,955 --> 00:18:03,457
...and he wants to know
if you'd like to ink it."
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00:18:03,666 --> 00:18:09,255
Which, obviously, jumped at. I mean,
there was really, you know, no hesitation.
212
00:18:09,463 --> 00:18:11,424
No deep thinking involved.
213
00:18:13,092 --> 00:18:16,137
CARLIN: DC was really...
They were pulling out all the stops.
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00:18:16,345 --> 00:18:21,350
And I wouldn't say it was "anything goes"
kind of universe...
215
00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:24,270
...but it was an "anything goes"
kind of universe...
216
00:18:24,437 --> 00:18:27,023
...if you were a certain level of creator.
217
00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:30,693
And Frank, clearly,
was top of the field at the time.
218
00:18:31,819 --> 00:18:33,446
KAHN:
I believed in Frank.
219
00:18:33,654 --> 00:18:35,656
And I believed that
he needed the freedom.
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00:18:36,324 --> 00:18:40,119
If we'd tried to curtail him,
if we'd over-edited him...
221
00:18:40,328 --> 00:18:46,584
...uh, we would not get the kind of discovery
that we thought we would get with Frank.
222
00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:53,674
MORRISON: That was the genius of it,
to be given a character that iconic.
223
00:18:53,883 --> 00:18:57,261
And for management to understand
that he was the right creator...
224
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:01,474
...and for Frank to understand these are the
right people for me to do this, to comics.
225
00:19:01,641 --> 00:19:04,060
Because if you can transform Batman
in everyone's head...
226
00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:06,771
...then you can transform everything.
227
00:19:08,606 --> 00:19:13,569
MILLER: Right behind you, um, there's
everything from Joe Kubert to Milton Caniff...
228
00:19:14,028 --> 00:19:15,279
...on my shelf there.
229
00:19:15,488 --> 00:19:19,075
And, um, to me, it's a treasure library.
230
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:24,413
And the idea of comic books
being something temporary...
231
00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:28,542
...uh, is part of what held us back.
232
00:19:32,797 --> 00:19:34,557
USLAN:
Frank took a hard look at superheroes.
233
00:19:35,341 --> 00:19:36,676
And if you're going to do that...
234
00:19:36,884 --> 00:19:40,096
...and try to convince the world
they could be real...
235
00:19:40,304 --> 00:19:41,764
...and get into the grittiness...
236
00:19:41,931 --> 00:19:45,351
...and get into the psychological
motivations of what they do...
237
00:19:45,518 --> 00:19:49,605
...how they do it, how they could
possibly operate in a real world...
238
00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:53,401
...you better first be talking about
somebody who has no super-powers.
239
00:19:53,609 --> 00:19:55,903
And Batman fits that bill to a
240
00:19:56,237 --> 00:20:00,199
When I sat down to start Dark Knight...
241
00:20:00,408 --> 00:20:03,119
...one of the things that had
bothered me most...
242
00:20:03,327 --> 00:20:09,458
...was how insular and closed in
the world of comics was.
243
00:20:09,667 --> 00:20:12,420
It had nothing to do
with the rest of the world.
244
00:20:12,628 --> 00:20:18,259
And I was wondering
what would make Batman...
245
00:20:19,552 --> 00:20:21,679
...genuinely relevant.
246
00:20:21,887 --> 00:20:24,306
And I looked out the window.
247
00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:31,313
It was the Reagan era, um...
248
00:20:33,065 --> 00:20:37,069
...the city was in near chaos.
249
00:20:37,278 --> 00:20:40,656
And I thought that's what we need...
250
00:20:40,865 --> 00:20:44,076
...is a gigantic father figure
to straighten things out.
251
00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:53,419
KAHN: Some of the stories
that affect us most of all...
252
00:20:53,586 --> 00:20:55,755
...are the ones
that have some rooting in reality.
253
00:20:55,963 --> 00:20:58,424
And certainly those that shine a light...
254
00:20:58,632 --> 00:21:01,093
...on us as human beings
and on our society...
255
00:21:01,302 --> 00:21:05,389
...on our mores and on our foibles.
256
00:21:09,810 --> 00:21:12,563
O'NEIL:
Nothing should be off-limits.
257
00:21:12,772 --> 00:21:17,735
There shouldn't be any topic
that a comic book can't treat...
258
00:21:17,943 --> 00:21:19,403
...because it's a comic book.
259
00:21:20,362 --> 00:21:25,367
So Frank walked into a situation...
260
00:21:25,576 --> 00:21:29,914
...where he had the freedom
to explore those things...
261
00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:32,416
...and I sure as hell
wasn't gonna get in his way.
262
00:21:35,336 --> 00:21:39,173
JANSON: It was Frank's ability
to take, you know, something...
263
00:21:39,507 --> 00:21:42,843
...and comment on it, uh, sociologically...
264
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:47,681
Um, even if it was in a negative way
or was spotlighted in a negative way.
265
00:21:47,890 --> 00:21:52,686
...And yet still engender a certain amount
of, uh, sympathy and compassion...
266
00:21:52,895 --> 00:21:56,357
...for the characters that had to live
through that period of time.
267
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:02,279
O'NEIL: In some ways as much in awe of it
as everybody else.
268
00:22:02,488 --> 00:22:07,701
And another artist, writer, could have come
into that same situation...
269
00:22:07,910 --> 00:22:10,037
...and not accomplished what Frank did.
270
00:22:10,246 --> 00:22:14,583
You have to have the talent,
you have to have the devotion...
271
00:22:14,792 --> 00:22:16,418
...and the determination.
272
00:22:25,553 --> 00:22:27,805
"NARRATOR".
Like a cultural anthropologist...
273
00:22:28,013 --> 00:22:31,976
...Frank Miller showed us a gritty side
to the world of Batman...
274
00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:38,482
...and how extreme criminal situations
require extreme heroic action.
275
00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:43,153
MILLER:
Think of Batman as a large jewel.
276
00:22:45,155 --> 00:22:47,995
You can throw it against the wall,
you can throw it against the floor...
277
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,578
...you throw it against the ceiling,
it's not gonna break.
278
00:22:50,786 --> 00:22:54,039
Every way you wanna treat Batman
is gonna work.
279
00:22:54,957 --> 00:23:00,129
From that old Adam West TV show...
280
00:23:00,671 --> 00:23:03,966
...through to Neal Adams' takes,
through to mine...
281
00:23:05,259 --> 00:23:07,928
...and through many others...
282
00:23:08,804 --> 00:23:10,556
...he always works.
283
00:23:10,764 --> 00:23:16,604
Since I have, um,
an innate love of mythology...
284
00:23:16,812 --> 00:23:21,901
...I was just drawn very naturally
to make him a mythic figure.
285
00:23:22,109 --> 00:23:26,614
USLAN: You might say that superheroes,
the initial feeling was...
286
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:30,743
...well, they're really too juvenile
and too silly to be dealt with...
287
00:23:30,951 --> 00:23:32,995
...in the format of a graphic novel.
288
00:23:33,203 --> 00:23:36,624
We just need something heady,
something of thematic importance.
289
00:23:36,832 --> 00:23:40,878
And superheroes certainly
just wouldn't fill that bill.
290
00:23:41,086 --> 00:23:44,340
But there's no denying
if you're talking about the comic book...
291
00:23:44,548 --> 00:23:47,468
...that the heart and soul of the
comic book is the superhero.
292
00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:50,512
Better or worse, like it or not, it is.
293
00:23:50,721 --> 00:23:56,518
And that meant it was up to Frank,
as well as Alan Moore in Watchmen...
294
00:23:56,727 --> 00:24:01,941
...to tackle that subject matter, to find
a way to deconstruct the superhero...
295
00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:06,862
...and present it in a way that put
it in a very, very different light.
296
00:24:08,530 --> 00:24:12,952
MORRISON: One of the great things that
it did was to be a complete work.
297
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,622
Because before that, most Batman stories
had been part of an ongoing canon.
298
00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:19,166
You know, you couldn't really tell
the final story.
299
00:24:19,375 --> 00:24:23,712
But for Frank Miller to say, "Let's do
the ultimate, definitive Batman story..."
300
00:24:23,921 --> 00:24:27,633
"...that will be read forever, so we'll ha...
Every beat will..." You know, and it's...
301
00:24:28,092 --> 00:24:30,803
Even today, you can see people
have learned that trick now...
302
00:24:31,011 --> 00:24:32,291
...about taking the character...
303
00:24:32,471 --> 00:24:36,308
...and make sure we get every single
ounce of juice out of that character.
304
00:24:37,726 --> 00:24:40,145
"NARRATOR".
A comic book that reads like a novel...
305
00:24:40,354 --> 00:24:44,692
...is precisely what became
the Frank Miller signature trademark.
306
00:24:47,444 --> 00:24:50,864
But it was the work
of The Dark Knight Returns...
307
00:24:51,073 --> 00:24:57,204
...that launched this technique into the
world of a pure, mythological status.
308
00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:10,926
GOODMAN:
When Dark Knight Returns came out, uh...
309
00:25:11,135 --> 00:25:14,638
...I was already
kind of at an early adulthood age...
310
00:25:14,805 --> 00:25:17,808
...where comic books
were kind of a thing of the past.
311
00:25:19,143 --> 00:25:22,646
But I was hearing from friends
that you have to look at this book.
312
00:25:24,106 --> 00:25:27,860
And this is something that isn't just...
That our age group can be reading this.
313
00:25:28,068 --> 00:25:29,948
Even then,
it was something inspirational for us.
314
00:25:30,112 --> 00:25:33,240
This is really grown-up writing.
This is something as complex, uh...
315
00:25:33,449 --> 00:25:34,992
...as a real literally work.
316
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,800
It had all these different layers
that you could be reading it on.
317
00:25:37,995 --> 00:25:40,039
It's about, you know,
interesting characters...
318
00:25:40,247 --> 00:25:43,333
...and Bruce Wayne and Batman
handled as a real character.
319
00:25:44,126 --> 00:25:46,378
There wasn't a focus in comic books
before this...
320
00:25:46,587 --> 00:25:50,674
...in really treating these individuals
as real people.
321
00:25:50,841 --> 00:25:54,636
Um, and this book really changed everything
after that, this and Watchmen.
322
00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:00,836
MORRISON: It was easy to tell straight away
that there was structure to this book...
323
00:26:00,976 --> 00:26:03,771
...which felt unusual
and gave it weight and depth.
324
00:26:03,979 --> 00:26:06,899
And then you got the multiple voices
and the multiple screens...
325
00:26:07,107 --> 00:26:09,359
...and the multiple readings of the text.
326
00:26:09,568 --> 00:26:12,529
Which, again, is definitely
from Watchmen...
327
00:26:12,696 --> 00:26:16,950
...which I kind of think only gives you the
one reading, just "This is the clockwork."
328
00:26:17,117 --> 00:26:19,328
You are in the clockwork, everything works.
329
00:26:19,495 --> 00:26:22,664
The more you study it, the more beautifully
and perfectly you see that it works.
330
00:26:22,831 --> 00:26:24,124
But it's all to this end.
331
00:26:24,291 --> 00:26:26,627
With Dark Knight,
it's a lot more interpretation.
332
00:26:26,794 --> 00:26:28,378
And as I say, there's a lot of voices.
333
00:26:29,755 --> 00:26:33,008
"NARRATOR".
One of the many novel writer techniques...
334
00:26:33,175 --> 00:26:37,304
...is the inclusion of multiple points
of view from which a story is told.
335
00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:41,350
Often these narrators take a major role...
336
00:26:41,558 --> 00:26:45,354
...and are dynamically changed
throughout the chapters.
337
00:26:45,562 --> 00:26:49,483
The Dark Knight Returns is no stranger
to this type of writing...
338
00:26:49,691 --> 00:26:53,904
...as we hear from Batman, Superman,
Carrie Kelly...
339
00:26:54,113 --> 00:26:56,365
...and Commissioner Gordon
throughout the book.
340
00:26:56,573 --> 00:27:00,369
I do think that Frank is himself a writer.
341
00:27:02,454 --> 00:27:08,252
He would have been a novelist
if he couldn't draw at all.
342
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,588
And maybe that would have been
his way to get into film-making.
343
00:27:11,797 --> 00:27:17,052
So I do think that he needed to feel
the story as an actual story...
344
00:27:17,261 --> 00:27:18,887
...for his own sake first.
345
00:27:21,890 --> 00:27:25,227
GOODMAN:
You can feel in Miller's take on Batman...
346
00:27:25,394 --> 00:27:28,647
...the kind of DNA of the noir detective.
347
00:27:30,315 --> 00:27:33,986
JANSON:
Frank was very influenced by Dirty Harry...
348
00:27:34,194 --> 00:27:37,865
...and detective and cops stories.
349
00:27:38,073 --> 00:27:40,793
GOODMAN: The noir detective is somebody
who claims the moral right...
350
00:27:40,951 --> 00:27:43,704
...to do things that other people
don't have the permission to do...
351
00:27:43,912 --> 00:27:46,331
...and would stop other people
from doing in the same story.
352
00:27:46,498 --> 00:27:49,209
CARLIN: That's what Frank tends to like,
the film noir stuff.
353
00:27:49,418 --> 00:27:52,171
It's all tough guys, but
they're still human...
354
00:27:52,379 --> 00:27:55,132
...and they have weaknesses,
and they have vulnerabilities.
355
00:27:55,299 --> 00:28:01,513
And clearly the Batman in Dark Knight Returns
is a guy who's got a lot of vulnerabilities.
356
00:28:03,765 --> 00:28:10,063
GOODMAN: Also, of course, that the
city as a dark, gritty character...
357
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:14,026
...the city as a morally corrupt world.
358
00:28:15,485 --> 00:28:17,696
These are all things that
Frank Miller loves...
359
00:28:17,863 --> 00:28:19,573
...and come from
the noir detective genre.
360
00:28:21,366 --> 00:28:23,243
JANSON:
There's absolutely no doubt...
361
00:28:23,410 --> 00:28:26,079
...that one of the things that Frank and I
really agreed upon...
362
00:28:26,288 --> 00:28:28,498
...in both Daredevil and Dark Knight...
363
00:28:28,707 --> 00:28:32,753
...was the use of the city,
whether it was New York or Gotham...
364
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,631
...as a second or third character.
365
00:28:42,930 --> 00:28:45,933
I think that probably was
Will Eisner's influence.
366
00:28:46,141 --> 00:28:48,435
I know that both of us
were influenced by Will Eisner.
367
00:28:57,903 --> 00:29:02,115
USLAN:
Part of the advantage of this, I thought...
368
00:29:02,324 --> 00:29:09,081
...was to give the whole superhero thing
and the whole Batman thing...
369
00:29:09,289 --> 00:29:14,586
...the perspective
of a real in-the-street human being.
370
00:29:19,216 --> 00:29:20,926
MILLER:
Whoever Batman was...
371
00:29:21,468 --> 00:29:23,971
...lived inside Bruce Wayne.
372
00:29:24,221 --> 00:29:25,764
And...
373
00:29:26,014 --> 00:29:28,558
But it was not Bruce Wayne.
374
00:29:29,184 --> 00:29:32,938
It was a different
creature that was bigger.
375
00:29:33,647 --> 00:29:38,902
And the entire premise of Dark Knight
sprang from that.
376
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:43,657
CARLIN: My interpretation of reading the
book, it's like he's almost resentful...
377
00:29:44,241 --> 00:29:47,995
...that he has to admit
that he finally has some vulnerabilities.
378
00:29:48,203 --> 00:29:51,164
Because he's not better
than everybody else.
379
00:29:51,373 --> 00:29:55,961
And he finds he needs to have help when
he thought he didn't need to have help.
380
00:29:56,670 --> 00:30:02,259
He finds that maybe stepping
out of the spotlight as Batman...
381
00:30:02,467 --> 00:30:04,344
...was the worst thing
he could have ever done.
382
00:30:04,761 --> 00:30:10,225
He had been retired and dissolute
for 1O years...
383
00:30:10,434 --> 00:30:15,230
...but because he was more than a man,
it was his comeback.
384
00:30:30,912 --> 00:30:35,000
USLAN: Bruce Wayne's big challenge
is always losing his humanity...
385
00:30:35,208 --> 00:30:38,712
...as he gets deeper and deeper
into the world of Batman...
386
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,964
...which is a very, very dark world.
387
00:30:41,173 --> 00:30:44,343
And sometimes there just is no room left
for Bruce Wayne.
388
00:30:45,302 --> 00:30:50,015
And it's Commissioner Gordon
and, in this particular story, Carrie...
389
00:30:50,182 --> 00:30:53,060
...that serve as anchors on that humanity.
390
00:31:02,277 --> 00:31:04,696
NARRATOR: Carrie Kelley
gave Bruce a way out.
391
00:31:05,197 --> 00:31:09,493
Someone he could confide in
as well as train.
392
00:31:09,701 --> 00:31:12,287
A female was now in the role of Robin.
393
00:31:12,496 --> 00:31:15,499
She was every bit as powerful
as her predecessors.
394
00:31:15,707 --> 00:31:19,961
And some say a female Robin
was long overdue.
395
00:31:20,170 --> 00:31:23,006
MILLER: It was funny
because when I first started Dark Knight...
396
00:31:23,215 --> 00:31:25,550
...there was gonna be no Robin.
397
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,178
I always thought the character was
a nuisance.
398
00:31:28,387 --> 00:31:33,934
And then I was on a cross-country
plane flight with John Byrne.
399
00:31:37,229 --> 00:31:42,109
And he said,
"Do Robin, but make her a girl."
400
00:31:45,195 --> 00:31:51,785
And I thought,
"What if she is this plucky character...
401
00:31:51,993 --> 00:31:53,995
...who doesn't belong in our world either?"
402
00:31:54,162 --> 00:31:55,682
NARRATOR".
Because of the treatments...
403
00:31:55,831 --> 00:31:59,626
...Frank Miller created
one of the more indelible characters...
404
00:31:59,835 --> 00:32:02,337
...to tear through the pages
of a Batman comic.
405
00:32:07,426 --> 00:32:09,826
MORRISON: So I think we were all
primed for it at the time...
406
00:32:09,970 --> 00:32:13,640
...and we wanted to see
these kind of radical reinventions.
407
00:32:13,849 --> 00:32:16,059
And the idea of a female Robin
was kind of long overdue.
408
00:32:16,226 --> 00:32:18,937
It was a surprise it had never been done.
409
00:32:21,189 --> 00:32:24,818
And in the '50s and '60s,
we were trying to steer away from...
410
00:32:24,985 --> 00:32:27,279
...you know, the potentially negative
connotations...
411
00:32:27,487 --> 00:32:31,491
...of Batman's living arrangements
because of the Wertham trials.
412
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:35,579
So they had the opportunity then
to introduce Batgirls and Batwomen...
413
00:32:35,787 --> 00:32:37,914
...but there was never a female Robin.
414
00:32:39,416 --> 00:32:42,419
"NARRATOR". Carrie Kelley was the obvious
answer to a character...
415
00:32:42,627 --> 00:32:44,254
...that was becoming outmoded.
416
00:32:44,463 --> 00:32:47,424
As Robin,
we had a new counterpoint to Batman...
417
00:32:47,924 --> 00:32:51,428
...and one that put a fresh spin
on the dynamic duo.
418
00:32:52,471 --> 00:32:56,808
MILLER: There had to be a light, I guess,
to show off the darkness.
419
00:32:57,058 --> 00:32:59,352
Because he's all gray and black.
420
00:33:00,812 --> 00:33:07,486
And, uh, she's all red
and, you know, yellow and so on.
421
00:33:08,195 --> 00:33:14,534
And, uh, also, I wanted
to feature his age...
422
00:33:14,743 --> 00:33:18,288
...by having someone
who was so much younger.
423
00:33:22,792 --> 00:33:27,797
It would make him as old he was.
424
00:33:29,216 --> 00:33:34,304
As the series progressed,
she became a richer and richer character.
425
00:33:34,513 --> 00:33:36,181
And I really did fall in love.
426
00:33:59,454 --> 00:34:01,790
"NARRATOR".
The villains are equally as developed...
427
00:34:01,998 --> 00:34:06,628
...similar to the style we are
accustomed to in any great novel.
428
00:34:09,506 --> 00:34:11,967
The four books taken as a series...
429
00:34:12,133 --> 00:34:18,223
...show Batman having to sort of work his
way through an escalation of villains.
430
00:34:19,391 --> 00:34:22,435
MILLER:
So much of writing heroic fiction...
431
00:34:22,644 --> 00:34:25,981
...involves defining the heroes
through other people.
432
00:34:26,815 --> 00:34:31,945
And Batman is best, uh, described
by his villains.
433
00:34:32,612 --> 00:34:35,448
"NARRATOR".
The villains were carefully selected.
434
00:34:35,657 --> 00:34:39,160
Each had a unique menacing psychosis...
435
00:34:39,369 --> 00:34:43,707
...all revealing shades
of Batman's personality.
436
00:34:43,915 --> 00:34:46,960
MILLER:
I deliberately went from one to the next...
437
00:34:47,168 --> 00:34:48,378
...so that...
438
00:34:48,587 --> 00:34:53,675
You would see it first with Harvey Dent,
you know, with Two-Face...
439
00:34:53,883 --> 00:34:57,178
...that Batman was two people.
440
00:34:57,887 --> 00:34:59,681
And then with the Joker.
441
00:35:01,016 --> 00:35:04,519
That the Joker was his nemesis.
442
00:35:07,814 --> 00:35:11,276
The Greeks would have a character...
443
00:35:11,735 --> 00:35:13,194
...who was...
444
00:35:13,403 --> 00:35:15,363
Who had hubris...
445
00:35:15,572 --> 00:35:20,285
...who would then be menaced by Nemesis.
446
00:35:21,745 --> 00:35:24,539
"NARRATOR". Although today,
we take the Joker for granted...
447
00:35:24,706 --> 00:35:26,958
...as Batman's greatest villain...
448
00:35:27,125 --> 00:35:32,255
...there was a time when Miller's choice in
making the character symbiotic to Batman...
449
00:35:32,464 --> 00:35:36,217
...was seen as a decisively bold move.
450
00:35:36,384 --> 00:35:41,473
Miller showed us just how connected
the Joker was to Batman.
451
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:44,768
One could not survive without the other.
452
00:35:46,227 --> 00:35:52,108
USLAN: Have you ever read a Civil War story
or seen a Civil War movie...
453
00:35:52,317 --> 00:35:56,529
...in which you have one soldier
from the South...
454
00:35:56,738 --> 00:36:01,493
...one soldier from the North
killing each other on a battlefield...
455
00:36:01,701 --> 00:36:05,955
...both Americans,
dying in each other's arms?
456
00:36:06,456 --> 00:36:11,336
I've seen those images,
and they have always resonated with me.
457
00:36:11,544 --> 00:36:13,963
I see the same image
with Batman and the Joker.
458
00:36:15,757 --> 00:36:19,594
USLAN:
There is this real deep-seated...
459
00:36:19,803 --> 00:36:23,139
I don't wanna say camaraderie.
It's not camaraderie.
460
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:28,103
But I think they both have experienced
the same hell.
461
00:36:31,022 --> 00:36:35,151
JANSON: I just, you know,
loved, uh, taking the Joker...
462
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,946
...to such an extreme place.
463
00:36:38,113 --> 00:36:45,120
Um, and again, it's to Frank's credit and his
writing that, uh, we were able to do that.
464
00:36:46,121 --> 00:36:48,832
You know, there's no doubt,
he's not a clown.
465
00:36:48,998 --> 00:36:52,669
He's crazy. He's nuts.
Uh, he's a psychopath.
466
00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:57,382
Um, and that really is a lot different
than the Joker that had been portrayed...
467
00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:59,384
...you know, prior to Dark Knight.
468
00:36:59,843 --> 00:37:02,429
The Joker is a demon.
469
00:37:03,263 --> 00:37:07,142
But he has no reason to exist
without there being a Batman.
470
00:37:07,642 --> 00:37:14,441
And so as soon as Batman appears,
the Joker reawakens like Lazarus.
471
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:19,237
"NARRATOR". Having the Joker
become reliant upon Batman...
472
00:37:19,446 --> 00:37:21,865
...opened up a new interpretation
for the villain...
473
00:37:22,073 --> 00:37:26,995
...and expanded on the work
of Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson.
474
00:37:27,162 --> 00:37:32,375
Here was a Joker that harkened back to the
homicidal character in his early days...
475
00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:34,377
...but with a deeper twist.
476
00:37:34,586 --> 00:37:38,339
This Joker never wanted
to be separated from Batman...
477
00:37:38,548 --> 00:37:41,134
...even in death.
478
00:37:41,342 --> 00:37:46,765
USLAN: I've always believed that the battle
between Batman and the Joker is eternal.
479
00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:51,936
I think they, or some form
of Batman and the Joker...
480
00:37:52,145 --> 00:37:56,483
...have been engaged
in this personal one-on-one warfare...
481
00:37:56,691 --> 00:38:01,613
...since the beginning of time,
and will be doing this dance forever.
482
00:38:01,821 --> 00:38:05,617
In many ways... This is the first time
I've really thought of it in this way.
483
00:38:05,825 --> 00:38:08,369
I've read Dark Knight a lot
and I've thought about it a lot...
484
00:38:08,578 --> 00:38:12,248
...but I really started to think
about the structure and how it works...
485
00:38:12,415 --> 00:38:14,959
...and the villains that he chose.
Because it's not really...
486
00:38:15,168 --> 00:38:18,546
He doesn't fight Killer Croc and
the Penguin. It's very deliberate.
487
00:38:18,755 --> 00:38:21,883
In the first book, he fights Two-Face.
488
00:38:22,091 --> 00:38:27,222
And there's constant images of Batman
coming face-to-face with the bat.
489
00:38:28,097 --> 00:38:32,602
So that character's clearly used to set up
everything that will happen in the book.
490
00:38:32,811 --> 00:38:36,898
And then you have the Mutant Leader
who kind of is set up once as Batman...
491
00:38:37,065 --> 00:38:39,734
...and the second book is kind of
Batman versus society, almost.
492
00:38:39,943 --> 00:38:43,112
You know, and we're seeing as they start
to understand that he's back...
493
00:38:43,321 --> 00:38:46,241
...and he's up against the cops,
and he's up against the government...
494
00:38:46,449 --> 00:38:47,992
...and he's up against the media.
495
00:38:48,201 --> 00:38:51,704
And so the Mutant Leader really represents
all of that, I think, you know.
496
00:38:51,913 --> 00:38:54,415
It... The fight takes place as a spectacle.
497
00:38:54,624 --> 00:38:56,376
It's kind of like a wrestling match.
498
00:38:56,584 --> 00:39:01,881
It becomes, like, it's Batman against the...
Basically the entertainment monolith.
499
00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:04,530
Batman against the people
and subjugating the Mutant Leader...
500
00:39:04,717 --> 00:39:07,053
...as monstrous, angry social force...
501
00:39:07,262 --> 00:39:10,223
...and suddenly,
okay, Batman has now tamed the city.
502
00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:12,911
Now, in the third one,
he's up against madness and the Joker...
503
00:39:13,101 --> 00:39:16,688
...and set in, you know, candy colors
and fairgrounds...
504
00:39:16,896 --> 00:39:18,815
...and it accelerates to absolute horror.
505
00:39:19,023 --> 00:39:21,442
And finally, he's up against,
not only as a citizen...
506
00:39:21,609 --> 00:39:25,029
...a nuclear winter is going on
and he has to fight Superman.
507
00:39:25,196 --> 00:39:28,992
And this is him against the elements,
it's Batman ascending to myth.
508
00:39:38,501 --> 00:39:41,129
"NARRATOR".
Miller achieved the impossible.
509
00:39:41,337 --> 00:39:46,050
He transformed Superman
into the real enemy of the state...
510
00:39:46,259 --> 00:39:49,053
...where he became part of the problem.
511
00:39:49,512 --> 00:39:52,974
It was an unexpected
emotion for the fans...
512
00:39:53,182 --> 00:39:56,603
...to find themselves angry with Superman.
513
00:39:57,770 --> 00:40:00,732
GOODMAN: When you think about this book
back in its historical context...
514
00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:04,360
...the idea of vilifying
Superman was crazy.
515
00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:06,821
And it was a new idea.
516
00:40:07,906 --> 00:40:11,951
We're still hearing the ripplings
of this argument...
517
00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:14,787
...that "Oh, Batman's a better character
than Superman"...
518
00:40:14,954 --> 00:40:19,417
...or, you know, "Batman's, uh, the more
interesting, the tougher character"...
519
00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:24,881
...or the one with this sort of moral right
that Superman doesn't have.
520
00:40:25,048 --> 00:40:29,928
And that's all because of Miller convincing
us of that argument in this book.
521
00:40:38,227 --> 00:40:42,357
NARRATOR: Miller made Superman the lackey
of President Reagan...
522
00:40:42,523 --> 00:40:46,110
...and unpopular position
for the comic book audience at large.
523
00:40:50,657 --> 00:40:53,701
But this was the genius of Miller.
524
00:40:53,868 --> 00:40:57,538
Always poking and prodding at society...
525
00:40:57,705 --> 00:40:59,916
...challenging our allegiances.
526
00:41:08,549 --> 00:41:12,053
MILLER: See, it always struck
me as completely silly...
527
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:15,723
...that World's Finest Comics
would have Batman and Superman as pals.
528
00:41:19,644 --> 00:41:22,939
I mean, why would these two people
like each other?
529
00:41:25,566 --> 00:41:27,902
They're complete opposites.
530
00:41:28,611 --> 00:41:31,030
I mean, that's like...
531
00:41:31,489 --> 00:41:37,036
You just don't expect a crabby terrorist...
532
00:41:37,203 --> 00:41:39,205
...to like a good soldier.
533
00:41:43,876 --> 00:41:47,130
And so they don't really end up
liking each other...
534
00:41:47,296 --> 00:41:50,091
...so much as forming an alliance.
535
00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:56,848
MORRISON: The portrayal of Superman
is really contentious...
536
00:41:57,015 --> 00:42:00,601
...but it worked so well
within this doctrine of the book.
537
00:42:03,146 --> 00:42:04,466
And it kind of is the ultimate...
538
00:42:04,564 --> 00:42:07,150
Here's the new superhero
taking on the old superhero.
539
00:42:09,944 --> 00:42:14,490
Superman set against pastoral scenes
and, you know, images of the American flag.
540
00:42:14,657 --> 00:42:17,702
The first introduction of Superman
is done as a dissolve...
541
00:42:17,869 --> 00:42:21,581
...from the stars and stripes
into the S on Superman's shield...
542
00:42:21,748 --> 00:42:25,626
...so you get the feeling
that we're in no doubt...
543
00:42:25,793 --> 00:42:28,171
...that he's equating Superman and America
at this moment...
544
00:42:28,337 --> 00:42:32,008
...a particularly conservative,
mummified version of America.
545
00:42:33,259 --> 00:42:39,223
GOODMAN: Miller is satirizing our image
of the flag as the symbol of power...
546
00:42:39,390 --> 00:42:40,725
...the symbol of nationalism.
547
00:42:40,892 --> 00:42:46,189
The fact that the president
literally wears the flag as his suit...
548
00:42:46,355 --> 00:42:50,401
...is making fun of it and is saying,
"Okay, this is just a facade."
549
00:42:56,491 --> 00:43:01,412
I think Frank was going
for the symbolism...
550
00:43:01,579 --> 00:43:08,044
...of only "the American way"
of Superman's trademark slogan.
551
00:43:08,211 --> 00:43:10,880
I think the "truth and justice" part
he wasn't caring about.
552
00:43:11,047 --> 00:43:14,383
And I think he was using Superman to say:
553
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:17,303
"You know, the American way
isn't always the way."
554
00:43:25,061 --> 00:43:26,479
TIMM:
I don't think he's saying...
555
00:43:26,646 --> 00:43:31,984
...that Superman is de facto a bad guy
or a wimp or a patsy.
556
00:43:32,151 --> 00:43:35,696
I think Superman literally
is supposed to represent America.
557
00:43:35,863 --> 00:43:41,494
And America is, in its idealized form,
a great, great thing.
558
00:43:41,661 --> 00:43:42,912
But it's not perfect.
559
00:43:43,079 --> 00:43:46,707
MILLER:
I was a confused young man.
560
00:43:47,291 --> 00:43:54,257
And to me, the American flag seemed to
represent a variety of possibilities...
561
00:43:54,423 --> 00:43:57,093
...most of which I did not respect
all that much.
562
00:43:57,260 --> 00:44:01,597
What Miller is attacking, the illegitimacy
of false authorities at every turn...
563
00:44:01,764 --> 00:44:06,269
...and that Superman, um,
is answering to a false authority.
564
00:44:06,435 --> 00:44:09,772
Superman is appeasing
his own conscience by saying:
565
00:44:09,939 --> 00:44:12,733
"Well, I have permission to do what I do."
566
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:16,487
Superman kills more people than Joker
in this story, certainly.
567
00:44:16,654 --> 00:44:20,575
Implied in the fact that he is the
war machine of the president.
568
00:44:20,741 --> 00:44:26,122
Um, but he gets to sleep at night because
he's been given permission to do it.
569
00:44:26,539 --> 00:44:32,253
In his unwillingness to self-examine,
Superman is weakened...
570
00:44:32,420 --> 00:44:34,505
...and Superman's authority is weakened.
571
00:44:34,672 --> 00:44:39,886
And Batman, of the two, is the only one
willing to make the tough decisions...
572
00:44:40,052 --> 00:44:44,891
...the only one willing to cross the line
and do the difficult things.
573
00:44:45,057 --> 00:44:48,728
And so he kind of becomes
the one true authority.
574
00:44:49,312 --> 00:44:52,440
So again, it was part of the whole
revitalization he was going for, I think.
575
00:44:52,607 --> 00:44:55,902
That Batman, the ultimate human,
had to beat this figure into submission.
576
00:45:04,368 --> 00:45:06,704
MILLER:
Batman up against a very good man...
577
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:10,958
Um, and, you know,
obviously a very powerful man.
578
00:45:11,125 --> 00:45:15,087
...To me completed the circle
for who Batman was.
579
00:45:15,504 --> 00:45:21,260
That he was anti-establishment.
580
00:45:22,428 --> 00:45:27,266
He was not, um, an obedient citizen.
581
00:45:28,142 --> 00:45:34,273
And his idea of dealing with crime
and with corruption...
582
00:45:34,815 --> 00:45:40,613
...was to, um, attack it with full force.
583
00:45:40,947 --> 00:45:42,406
And ignore the law.
584
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,458
Ultimately, the two had to have
their showdown.
585
00:45:57,338 --> 00:45:59,257
Also ever since I was a little kid...
586
00:45:59,423 --> 00:46:03,761
...I wanted to see Batman
kick the shit out of Superman.
587
00:46:03,928 --> 00:46:07,348
It's just one of those things
I always wanted to see.
588
00:46:13,271 --> 00:46:17,441
"NARRATOR". Perhaps the final jab
at America and its culture...
589
00:46:17,608 --> 00:46:22,363
...came in the way Miller used the media
throughout The Dark Knight Returns.
590
00:46:22,530 --> 00:46:27,243
GOODMAN: It was really interesting and
unusual to be as contemporary as it was.
591
00:46:27,410 --> 00:46:32,248
Um, you weren't used to opening up a comic
book and seeing a picture of Ronald Reagan...
592
00:46:32,415 --> 00:46:35,543
...clearly Ronald Reagan,
clearly the current president...
593
00:46:35,710 --> 00:46:37,712
...um, and lampooning him.
594
00:46:39,672 --> 00:46:46,679
MILLER: I regard being a cartoonist
as being kind of like an assassin.
595
00:46:47,805 --> 00:46:50,850
Only all he fires is rubber darts.
596
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,063
And he fires them in different directions
and he's willing to hit anybody.
597
00:46:57,231 --> 00:46:58,858
He's not gonna hurt them...
598
00:46:59,025 --> 00:47:02,737
...they'll just have those stupid things
stuck to their heads.
599
00:47:05,031 --> 00:47:08,659
O'NEIL: You know,
if we're gonna do this work honestly...
600
00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:15,207
...and not be a hack, your own
feelings are going to creep into it.
601
00:47:15,374 --> 00:47:19,420
Sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly.
602
00:47:20,379 --> 00:47:22,298
As I went about doing Batman...
603
00:47:22,465 --> 00:47:28,721
...what I wanted to do was to show him
as a grand and glorious figure.
604
00:47:28,888 --> 00:47:30,431
Wagnerian.
605
00:47:30,598 --> 00:47:32,975
The best way to do that
was to contrast him...
606
00:47:33,142 --> 00:47:38,356
...with the utter silliness
of the world that surrounded me.
607
00:47:44,445 --> 00:47:45,780
I'm a news junkie.
608
00:47:45,946 --> 00:47:52,953
And to me, the world is run by amateurs
and is a pretty funny place.
609
00:47:55,498 --> 00:48:01,837
And so to have this Wagnerian hero...
610
00:48:02,004 --> 00:48:04,882
...all of a sudden in the midst of it...
611
00:48:05,049 --> 00:48:12,014
...would cause these
petty, paltry reactions...
612
00:48:12,181 --> 00:48:13,682
...that frankly I thought were funny.
613
00:48:15,017 --> 00:48:18,646
"NARRATOR".
Panel after panel, page after page...
614
00:48:18,813 --> 00:48:25,736
...he showed us the reporters, pundits and
talk show hosts that permeated our society.
615
00:48:25,903 --> 00:48:28,656
Here it was, right in our faces...
616
00:48:28,823 --> 00:48:33,577
...in a giant soup of buffoonery
mixed with paranoia...
617
00:48:33,744 --> 00:48:36,497
...all for entertainment value.
618
00:48:36,664 --> 00:48:42,211
Frank's pen artistically depicted
just how far off the deep end we have gone.
619
00:48:47,591 --> 00:48:53,013
MILLER: And a lot of Dark Knight,
was done with me laughing out loud.
620
00:48:53,472 --> 00:48:59,228
I mean, a psychologist wearing
a button saying, "Hey, I'm okay."
621
00:48:59,395 --> 00:49:05,860
That kind of thing is just a touch beyond
what we're already seeing.
622
00:49:06,026 --> 00:49:08,320
We're all just used to that now.
623
00:49:08,696 --> 00:49:13,409
You at home are watching a talking head
right now. And it's just normal.
624
00:49:13,576 --> 00:49:14,618
For those reasons...
625
00:49:14,785 --> 00:49:17,079
...it's up there with Wall Street
and American Psycho...
626
00:49:17,246 --> 00:49:20,166
...as this mythic document of the '80s.
627
00:49:24,378 --> 00:49:27,298
NARRATOR:
Each reading of The Dark Knight Returns...
628
00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:29,216
...gave us something unique...
629
00:49:29,383 --> 00:49:33,721
...something we could deeply glean from
the writing and the social commentary...
630
00:49:33,888 --> 00:49:38,684
...to the artistic choices used to
help express the folly and conflict...
631
00:49:38,851 --> 00:49:45,858
...of the greatest of DC champions,
both in Batman and Superman.
632
00:49:47,067 --> 00:49:49,737
It was a hard-hitting and seminal work...
633
00:49:49,904 --> 00:49:52,448
...but in order to have maximum impact...
634
00:49:52,615 --> 00:49:57,328
...the way it reached the public
needed to be equally potent.
635
00:49:57,495 --> 00:50:03,626
If Frank Miller had to deal with the format
of the pamphlet weekly comic book...
636
00:50:03,792 --> 00:50:09,423
...with approximately 20 to 24 pages
of new material in an issue...
637
00:50:09,590 --> 00:50:13,594
...interrupted left and right
by advertisements...
638
00:50:14,220 --> 00:50:15,620
...it wouldn't have had the impact.
639
00:50:15,763 --> 00:50:17,139
It wouldn't have worked.
640
00:50:17,765 --> 00:50:19,266
A new format had to be invented.
641
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,902
O'NEIL:
A Prestige edition...
642
00:50:30,361 --> 00:50:36,992
...is a 48-to-72-page story,
or part of a story...
643
00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:40,621
...that's printed on
coated stock, it's slick.
644
00:50:40,788 --> 00:50:46,710
Uh, The New Yorker
as opposed to your daily newspaper.
645
00:50:49,630 --> 00:50:54,843
JANSON: I think that was exactly the point,
was to make it stand out on the news-stand...
646
00:50:55,010 --> 00:50:58,931
...and give it some, uh, specialty,
some singularity...
647
00:50:59,098 --> 00:51:02,059
...something to make it stand apart
from the regular comics.
648
00:51:05,104 --> 00:51:09,441
Just the appearance of it
sent a signal that, uh...
649
00:51:09,608 --> 00:51:12,736
...at the very least you wanna pick this up
and page through it.
650
00:51:12,903 --> 00:51:15,489
You wanna check it out.
651
00:51:19,326 --> 00:51:21,846
JANSON: You know, I know that Frank
was very heavily invested...
652
00:51:21,996 --> 00:51:26,542
...in making sure that it did, uh,
stand apart from the monthly books.
653
00:51:26,709 --> 00:51:30,671
Urn, but I also know that, uh, you know,
Jenette was involved in this...
654
00:51:30,838 --> 00:51:35,801
...and that Dick Giordano, who, uh, I
have a great deal of affection for...
655
00:51:35,968 --> 00:51:40,264
I remember him using phrases like, uh,
"We have to push the envelope."
656
00:51:40,431 --> 00:51:42,057
We have to try something different.
657
00:51:42,224 --> 00:51:48,314
"We have to, uh, move the, uh,
dial a little bit further."
658
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,192
KAHN: As with Watchmen, too, I think we
just would run up and down the hall saying:
659
00:51:52,359 --> 00:51:54,028
"Look at this, look at this." Heh.
660
00:51:54,194 --> 00:51:57,781
Uh, you know, also waiting for a long time
for the pages to come in.
661
00:51:57,948 --> 00:52:02,202
But when they did come, always say,
"Oh, my God, this is so special.
662
00:52:02,369 --> 00:52:03,912
Look what we're doing right now."
663
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:06,999
O'NEIL: What is this anyway?
Is this a comic book or something new?
664
00:52:56,131 --> 00:52:58,967
Miller structured these books...
665
00:52:59,134 --> 00:53:04,556
...in an unusually, uh, rigid format.
666
00:53:15,359 --> 00:53:18,362
MILLER:
I came up with The Dark Knight format...
667
00:53:18,529 --> 00:53:24,535
...um, so that each one would be
square-bound and 48 pages long...
668
00:53:24,702 --> 00:53:27,871
...and I made the pages...
669
00:53:28,038 --> 00:53:32,918
...really rather incredibly dense
with material...
670
00:53:33,961 --> 00:53:39,091
...because I wanted to keep people
tied to the narrative.
671
00:53:39,258 --> 00:53:44,722
Immediately it creates a kind of
imposed pace to your reading it.
672
00:53:44,888 --> 00:53:50,686
A kind of a beat, beat, beat, uh,
to the reading of it.
673
00:53:53,981 --> 00:54:00,154
JANSON: The pacing is absolutely, um,
integral to the emotion.
674
00:54:01,405 --> 00:54:06,994
The emotional reaction, um,
is really predicated on...
675
00:54:07,161 --> 00:54:09,037
...you know, the content of the story...
676
00:54:09,204 --> 00:54:15,586
...and the ability to pace it correctly
so that it has some power and some effect.
677
00:54:20,507 --> 00:54:27,514
It's a very deliberate choice on Frank's part
to lay out and design the book in that manner.
678
00:54:27,681 --> 00:54:31,310
Right down to the specific shot.
679
00:54:32,644 --> 00:54:37,316
"NARRATOR". Like a director making choices
on where to put the camera on a film set...
680
00:54:37,483 --> 00:54:40,110
...so did Frank Miller
make his own choices...
681
00:54:40,277 --> 00:54:45,532
...on what the comic-book panel
would showcase from scene to scene.
682
00:54:45,699 --> 00:54:48,577
USLAN:
Frank was directing a movie.
683
00:54:48,744 --> 00:54:50,704
I really think
that's how you have to look at it.
684
00:54:50,871 --> 00:54:53,540
So it's not traditional comic book.
685
00:54:53,707 --> 00:54:58,504
It is graphic novel
and graphic novel and cinema go together.
686
00:54:58,670 --> 00:55:01,381
And depending on the graphic artist,
to one extreme or another...
687
00:55:01,548 --> 00:55:05,928
...um, here, I truly believe
he was writing and directing a movie.
688
00:55:06,094 --> 00:55:09,389
So that you had scenes
that were intercut...
689
00:55:09,556 --> 00:55:11,225
...you had cutaways...
690
00:55:11,391 --> 00:55:17,272
...uh, you had more than one set of action
going on at a particular time.
691
00:55:17,439 --> 00:55:21,944
GOODMAN: Then once you have
that cinematic pace and rhythm...
692
00:55:22,110 --> 00:55:25,864
...you have the opportunity to break it
for impact.
693
00:55:26,031 --> 00:55:29,034
You have the opportunity to suddenly
create, like, a splash page...
694
00:55:29,201 --> 00:55:31,241
...of the first time we see Batman
in his costume...
695
00:55:31,370 --> 00:55:34,581
...as he descends from
the sky in the storm.
696
00:55:34,748 --> 00:55:38,377
Um, and, you know, you can hear the music,
you can hear the soundtrack...
697
00:55:38,544 --> 00:55:40,212
...because it's so cinematic.
698
00:55:40,379 --> 00:55:42,619
And all of a sudden now,
we're hitting the big hero shot.
699
00:55:42,756 --> 00:55:46,760
Um, uh, you can quicken the pace,
you can slow the pace.
700
00:55:46,927 --> 00:55:53,016
Uh, so it gave all sorts of opportunities
to break that mold.
701
00:55:53,183 --> 00:55:56,562
And all of a sudden,
when something doesn't fit...
702
00:55:56,728 --> 00:55:58,981
...you know, when, uh, the word
of somebody screaming...
703
00:55:59,147 --> 00:56:02,818
...or a "crack" of a bone breaking
breaks through those panels...
704
00:56:02,985 --> 00:56:05,665
...now all of a sudden, that has
more impact and really grabs you...
705
00:56:05,821 --> 00:56:07,948
...and you know, gets you in the gut.
706
00:56:11,034 --> 00:56:15,247
"NARRATOR". But this ingenuity
only partly came from instinct.
707
00:56:15,414 --> 00:56:19,167
Long-standing inspiration
also played a key role.
708
00:56:20,919 --> 00:56:26,592
Frank Miller's style became the embodiment
of everything he had ever learned.
709
00:56:28,468 --> 00:56:30,762
MILLER:
When I first moved to New York...
710
00:56:32,764 --> 00:56:35,767
...I found comic-book artists
to be among the most generous people...
711
00:56:35,934 --> 00:56:38,312
...I've ever met in my life.
712
00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:41,356
And I got to meet a lot of the old guys.
713
00:56:41,523 --> 00:56:43,984
Almost all of whom are dead now.
714
00:56:44,151 --> 00:56:49,865
And they taught me techniques
and gave me examples of work...
715
00:56:50,032 --> 00:56:54,494
...that went far back
to sometimes the '30s.
716
00:57:01,627 --> 00:57:07,758
I'm lucky to have learned them
well enough to use them.
717
00:57:07,925 --> 00:57:11,762
That's one of the reasons
why I don't draw on a computer yet.
718
00:57:15,807 --> 00:57:17,476
And believe it or not...
719
00:57:17,643 --> 00:57:23,899
...it takes about a year and a half to learn
how to use, um, a ruler and a brush together.
720
00:57:24,524 --> 00:57:28,528
But once you know how to do it,
you got gold on your hands...
721
00:57:28,695 --> 00:57:31,865
...because your staircases become warm.
722
00:57:32,032 --> 00:57:39,039
And there's just enough wrong with them
for you to believe them.
723
00:57:41,625 --> 00:57:45,003
As far as the penciling goes...
724
00:57:45,879 --> 00:57:50,300
...well, this little old Ticonderoga
works just fine.
725
00:57:52,260 --> 00:57:56,390
I don't like mechanical pencils
because they bother my hand.
726
00:58:01,269 --> 00:58:06,400
And, uh, things like using rubber cement
or liquid frisket...
727
00:58:06,566 --> 00:58:12,781
...all these techniques
are ones that I learned from masters.
728
00:58:13,490 --> 00:58:16,785
Urn, and I intend to keep using them.
729
00:58:17,661 --> 00:58:22,958
USLAN: I've also seen the influence
of manga and anime in his work as well.
730
00:58:23,125 --> 00:58:26,378
Um, he is someone who has just
taken in so much...
731
00:58:26,545 --> 00:58:31,842
...from everyone from Will Eisner to great
directors and then made it his own.
732
00:58:33,176 --> 00:58:39,182
"NARRATOR". Inspired by the best, it is clear that
Frank Miller's artistic sense is extraordinary.
733
00:58:39,349 --> 00:58:40,851
But in the world of comics...
734
00:58:41,018 --> 00:58:45,772
...extraordinary can transcend to
master-work with the right team.
735
00:58:46,523 --> 00:58:49,985
One key member was inker Klaus Janson.
736
00:58:52,821 --> 00:58:54,281
JANSON:
With Frank's pencils...
737
00:58:54,448 --> 00:58:59,786
Frank's, uh, pencils ranged
from, uh, being elegant to crude...
738
00:58:59,953 --> 00:59:03,623
...depending on the image
that was being drawn.
739
00:59:03,790 --> 00:59:08,086
Obviously you're not going to draw
a love scene in a crude manner...
740
00:59:08,253 --> 00:59:09,880
...but you will draw, for instance...
741
00:59:10,047 --> 00:59:13,341
...an action scene of somebody
being thrown through a window...
742
00:59:13,508 --> 00:59:17,637
...uh, in a more brutal hand motion.
743
00:59:17,971 --> 00:59:20,223
"NARRATOR".
Inking, as its namesake implies...
744
00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:24,102
...is the usage of ink
applied to the penciled image.
745
00:59:24,269 --> 00:59:27,647
The contrast heightens the emotion
of the sequence...
746
00:59:27,814 --> 00:59:32,152
...as our eyes are guided
from character to character.
747
00:59:32,319 --> 00:59:38,450
I know that when I'm drawing, the hand will
respond to the emotion in the scene that I feel.
748
00:59:38,617 --> 00:59:44,706
Um, so it's important that the inker
is aware and can look at the work...
749
00:59:44,873 --> 00:59:49,377
...and see the differences
and try to pick up on that.
750
00:59:49,544 --> 00:59:52,547
MILLER:
In the course of drawing Batman...
751
00:59:53,173 --> 00:59:57,886
...as much as he is transformed
across the series, um...
752
00:59:58,053 --> 01:00:02,224
Because he starts out
as kind of a Neal Adams Batman.
753
01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:06,353
And he ends up being more like
the Incredible Hulk or something.
754
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,774
Um, as much change as there was...
755
01:00:10,941 --> 01:00:15,237
...there was less
than my hands were guiding me to...
756
01:00:15,445 --> 01:00:20,700
...because I would pull it back,
or I would find a way to amplify it.
757
01:00:21,409 --> 01:00:25,789
Um, and I felt that, um...
758
01:00:25,956 --> 01:00:28,750
...by the midpoint of the series,
I'd really found my Batman.
759
01:00:32,295 --> 01:00:34,965
JANSON:
It's a funny process, um...
760
01:00:35,132 --> 01:00:40,971
...which, uh, remains I think a mystery to
most civilians, if I could use that phrase.
761
01:00:41,138 --> 01:00:46,351
It's akin to what, uh, I know about,
say, acting.
762
01:00:46,852 --> 01:00:51,231
Uh, you memorize the lines,
but then you forget them...
763
01:00:51,398 --> 01:00:55,235
...and you get on set
and you get into the scene...
764
01:00:55,402 --> 01:00:57,904
...and the lines will
then have more meaning.
765
01:00:58,071 --> 01:01:00,657
And I think it's very similar,
being an inker.
766
01:01:00,824 --> 01:01:07,539
In a sense, you memorize the lines
and then you forget about it.
767
01:01:10,333 --> 01:01:13,795
MILLER: Klaus, um, you know,
as he had on Daredevil...
768
01:01:13,962 --> 01:01:16,381
...he smoothed out my rough edges a lot...
769
01:01:16,548 --> 01:01:20,552
...and was able to bring his facility,
which I didn't have at the time...
770
01:01:21,469 --> 01:01:22,888
...um, to bear.
771
01:01:25,599 --> 01:01:31,396
JANSON: I always look at the pages, uh,
very, very diligently.
772
01:01:31,563 --> 01:01:34,983
I really try to analyze what the penciler
is trying to do.
773
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:42,157
Um, I try to figure out what the weaknesses
are and hopefully fill those in...
774
01:01:42,324 --> 01:01:45,076
...because I think that's
part of my job as a...
775
01:01:45,243 --> 01:01:49,331
That's part of the definition of being,
I think, an effective, good inker.
776
01:01:49,497 --> 01:01:53,835
Um, but I also try to...
I push it just a little bit further.
777
01:01:55,170 --> 01:02:00,258
One of my, uh, favorite things to
contribute is adding texture, uh...
778
01:02:00,467 --> 01:02:06,306
...and the ability to, uh, contribute
to the storytelling through texture.
779
01:02:06,473 --> 01:02:12,646
Whether it's Zip-A-Tone using dot patterns or
spatter using, you know, a brush technique.
780
01:02:12,812 --> 01:02:16,233
Or using cross-hatching.
Texture is anything.
781
01:02:16,399 --> 01:02:20,654
You know, shrubbery, grass. Anything
that is a gray is basically a texture.
782
01:02:21,154 --> 01:02:26,451
Texture is something that I can contribute
to almost, uh, any pencil job...
783
01:02:26,618 --> 01:02:31,206
...and improve the relationship
of black to white...
784
01:02:31,373 --> 01:02:33,959
...the ability to form shapes...
785
01:02:34,125 --> 01:02:39,297
...um, the ability to guide the eye
through the panel on to the next panel...
786
01:02:39,464 --> 01:02:41,633
...and through the entire page.
787
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,427
Um, it's always about storytelling.
788
01:02:44,594 --> 01:02:51,393
It's always about helping the reader, uh,
guide their eye through the page...
789
01:02:51,559 --> 01:02:55,063
...making them look at
what you want them to look at.
790
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,109
We really created a third entity.
791
01:02:59,276 --> 01:03:04,406
It was neither Frank's work nor my work.
It was a third person.
792
01:03:04,614 --> 01:03:10,370
He's a terrific guy
and he was a superb partner.
793
01:03:13,248 --> 01:03:16,543
"NARRATOR". But as with any master-work,
the labor of its creation...
794
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:19,921
...can lead to conflict.
795
01:03:20,130 --> 01:03:27,137
MILLER: In Dark Knight, we began to
drift apart, just creatively, um...
796
01:03:27,304 --> 01:03:31,016
...because I was into all
the European stuff...
797
01:03:31,182 --> 01:03:34,602
...and the Japanese stuff
and all of that...
798
01:03:34,769 --> 01:03:40,608
...and he was still very much
in the tradition of DC.
799
01:03:40,817 --> 01:03:43,361
You know, there's one issue
where I redid a bunch of it...
800
01:03:43,528 --> 01:03:47,198
...because I wanted a certain look.
801
01:03:47,866 --> 01:03:49,659
There was a point, uh...
802
01:03:49,826 --> 01:03:55,123
There was a point in the, uh,
project that, uh...
803
01:03:55,874 --> 01:03:58,335
...Frank was unhappy with the work
that I was handing in.
804
01:03:59,711 --> 01:04:03,673
My policy has always been
and remains to this very day...
805
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,802
...that if a penciler is not happy
with my work...
806
01:04:07,969 --> 01:04:11,139
...I will re-ink it, uh, free.
807
01:04:11,306 --> 01:04:14,517
And, uh, Frank took it upon himself...
808
01:04:14,684 --> 01:04:19,147
...to not avail himself
to that offer, uh...
809
01:04:19,314 --> 01:04:20,774
...which is his right...
810
01:04:20,940 --> 01:04:24,944
...and took it upon himself
to re-ink, uh, a couple of pages...
811
01:04:25,111 --> 01:04:26,821
...that he was unhappy with.
812
01:04:27,947 --> 01:04:31,368
MILLER: I had clone layouts,
particularly for the end of the book...
813
01:04:31,534 --> 01:04:34,204
...that I ended up throwing away.
814
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:40,794
Um... And because I wanted to go
for the quieter ending that I went for.
815
01:04:46,049 --> 01:04:48,635
JANSON: ls Frank tough to work with?
Is he demanding?
816
01:04:48,802 --> 01:04:51,471
Does he know what he wants? Sure.
817
01:04:51,638 --> 01:04:55,517
Um, do I know that going into it? Sure.
818
01:04:55,683 --> 01:05:00,480
Uh, do we have an understanding
of each other? I think so.
819
01:05:00,647 --> 01:05:03,608
If you're going to work with somebody
who's, you know, good...
820
01:05:03,775 --> 01:05:08,154
...or under the best of circumstances
better than you...
821
01:05:08,321 --> 01:05:10,824
...uh, you have to rise to the challenge.
822
01:05:10,990 --> 01:05:15,078
And there's no guarantee, by the way,
that you'll actually be able to do that...
823
01:05:15,245 --> 01:05:18,623
...but you know that in
accepting that challenge...
824
01:05:18,790 --> 01:05:24,879
...uh, that you will do work that is at least
better than the work that you normally do.
825
01:05:25,130 --> 01:05:30,677
It's part of that whole process of working with
people who do challenge you, like Frank...
826
01:05:30,844 --> 01:05:33,346
...and who do inspire you like Frank.
827
01:05:33,847 --> 01:05:40,311
Uh, and perhaps I even learned that, you
know, from working with people like Frank.
828
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:45,775
Now that he's drawing his own work,
it's wonderful to see...
829
01:05:45,942 --> 01:05:49,654
...because he's... Because he's... It's...
830
01:05:50,447 --> 01:05:53,533
You know, when you work with a partner...
831
01:05:53,700 --> 01:05:56,953
...there's nothing better
than to seeing him fly alone...
832
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:00,874
...and he's become quite good at it.
833
01:06:01,666 --> 01:06:04,878
"NARRATOR".
Also contributing to this master-work...
834
01:06:05,044 --> 01:06:07,130
...was colorist Lynn Varley. ..
835
01:06:07,297 --> 01:06:12,677
...whose unique style brought something new
and unsuspecting to the readers.
836
01:06:21,060 --> 01:06:24,814
CARLIN: Lynn was at the time one of the
best colorists going in the business...
837
01:06:24,981 --> 01:06:26,900
...and there is a real limitation...
838
01:06:27,066 --> 01:06:33,698
...to the regular comic book separation
system that was being used back then.
839
01:06:33,865 --> 01:06:39,871
The process at the time was called "blue
line," which was that the black artwork...
840
01:06:40,038 --> 01:06:45,668
The black-and-white artwork
was shot on paper, on heavy stock paper...
841
01:06:45,835 --> 01:06:50,465
...in blue, in non-reproducible blue.
In a blue that would not reproduce.
842
01:06:50,632 --> 01:06:54,636
And then Lynn, uh, would color over it.
843
01:06:57,639 --> 01:07:02,143
"NARRATOR".
Lynn incorporated the use of gouache...
844
01:07:02,310 --> 01:07:07,857
...an opaque watercolor that provided
both the signature muted tone...
845
01:07:08,024 --> 01:07:12,904
...and expanded the color palette
of comics to new levels.
846
01:07:18,618 --> 01:07:22,872
CARLIN: I think Lynn came
up with the gouache, uh...
847
01:07:23,414 --> 01:07:25,041
...and just the whole look.
848
01:07:25,250 --> 01:07:28,586
It's a little bit of a muted palette
except for when you get to Robin...
849
01:07:28,753 --> 01:07:30,922
...and when you get to, you know,
Batman's oval.
850
01:07:31,089 --> 01:07:34,133
It's like... It's a real standout
when you get to those things...
851
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:37,679
."because, uh,
the city is kind of dingy-looking.
852
01:07:47,355 --> 01:07:51,693
The application of liquid,
whether it was gouache or watercolor...
853
01:07:51,859 --> 01:07:55,238
...but the fact that it was wet
would distort the paper...
854
01:07:55,405 --> 01:07:57,907
...no matter how heavy the paper stock was.
855
01:07:58,116 --> 01:08:02,912
You had to put a black plate on top of it
which was shot on acetate...
856
01:08:03,079 --> 01:08:08,042
...but the black plate
almost never matched the blue line...
857
01:08:08,209 --> 01:08:10,044
...because the blue line was distorted.
858
01:08:10,253 --> 01:08:16,551
So it was a rather involved and a tedious,
time-consuming approach to the work.
859
01:08:16,759 --> 01:08:20,346
But it's a measure, I think,
of the amount of dedication...
860
01:08:20,555 --> 01:08:23,600
...that everyone had on the project, uh...
861
01:08:23,808 --> 01:08:29,188
...and Lynn's interest in pursuing, you
know, this particular approach to color.
862
01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:32,942
"NARRATOR". Tying in with its
glossy page prestige format...
863
01:08:33,109 --> 01:08:35,737
...gouache stood out as something fresh.
864
01:08:35,903 --> 01:08:39,616
It was the perfect storm
of commerce and art...
865
01:08:39,824 --> 01:08:43,828
...demonstrating to an industry
what was possible.
866
01:08:45,038 --> 01:08:47,373
O'NEIL:
Lynn didn't have to worry about...
867
01:08:47,540 --> 01:08:52,295
...the limited 122-shade color palette...
868
01:08:52,462 --> 01:08:58,009
...that had been the great iron lock
on comic book creativity for years...
869
01:08:58,176 --> 01:09:02,055
...because it's all the presses
would accommodate.
870
01:09:07,393 --> 01:09:12,774
JANSON: I think that it was her and
everyone's feeling on the project...
871
01:09:12,982 --> 01:09:19,113
...to try to, um, stretch as
much as we could individually...
872
01:09:19,781 --> 01:09:25,453
...and achieve something
that was bigger, better...
873
01:09:25,620 --> 01:09:29,207
...than the usual, uh, work, uh...
874
01:09:29,374 --> 01:09:33,586
...that a monthly comic might,
you know, produce or look like.
875
01:09:43,262 --> 01:09:47,016
MORRISON: With every page it's like this
young guy showing you the possibilities.
876
01:09:47,183 --> 01:09:48,476
"Look at all this," you know?
877
01:09:48,685 --> 01:09:51,688
So there's a kind of enthusiasm
in every page of it.
878
01:09:51,854 --> 01:09:55,108
"Here's what we can do. Here's what we
can do. I'm gonna prove it to you."
879
01:09:55,274 --> 01:09:59,320
This was, to a great
degree, his baby. Um...
880
01:09:59,487 --> 01:10:06,077
So he... It was a moment where everything
really fell together and came together...
881
01:10:06,244 --> 01:10:10,832
...in a, uh, very, very effective
and powerful way.
882
01:10:31,894 --> 01:10:36,566
GOODMAN: I don't know
which one was, uh, Frank's intention...
883
01:10:36,733 --> 01:10:39,318
...to be first and foremost.
884
01:10:39,485 --> 01:10:43,364
What's clear is that this
story is many things.
885
01:10:43,573 --> 01:10:45,950
Um, it can be read on
many different levels.
886
01:10:46,117 --> 01:10:48,244
It can be read as social commentary.
887
01:10:48,411 --> 01:10:51,873
It can be read as a very intimate
personal story...
888
01:10:52,039 --> 01:10:54,083
...about one man struggling with
his inner demons.
889
01:10:54,250 --> 01:10:57,837
One man searching for his own relevance...
890
01:10:58,045 --> 01:11:00,339
...in a world that has
kind of passed him by.
891
01:11:00,506 --> 01:11:04,802
There are so many different, uh,
layers you can look at, this story.
892
01:11:04,969 --> 01:11:07,180
So many different lenses
you can look at it through.
893
01:11:07,346 --> 01:11:11,100
And you can go back and discover another, and
discover another with repeated readings.
894
01:11:11,267 --> 01:11:14,145
That's part of what's really made it, uh,
have staying power...
895
01:11:14,312 --> 01:11:19,358
...and still, uh, be a valid literary work
after 25 years.
896
01:11:19,901 --> 01:11:22,653
For me, I hadn't read Dark Knight
again for a long time.
897
01:11:22,820 --> 01:11:26,949
I reread it when I was writing my book and
wanted to sort of, uh, have it fresh again.
898
01:11:27,116 --> 01:11:28,534
And I was really impressed again...
899
01:11:28,701 --> 01:11:31,996
...because, you know, you figure out a lot
more yourself in the intervening time...
900
01:11:32,205 --> 01:11:34,707
...and suddenly you realize
there's so much going on here...
901
01:11:34,874 --> 01:11:37,376
...than even I figured out
when I was 26 or whatever.
902
01:11:37,585 --> 01:11:41,506
That really appealed to me and I've been
trying to bring that into my own comics.
903
01:11:42,715 --> 01:11:46,260
KAHN: Without question, Dark Knight
has influenced generations of comics...
904
01:11:46,427 --> 01:11:49,222
...and other, uh, iterations of Batman...
905
01:11:49,388 --> 01:11:54,602
...like Grant Morrison's just extraordinary
Arkham Asylum.
906
01:11:57,605 --> 01:12:01,776
I think we've gotten to the point where comics
are considered literature at their very best.
907
01:12:01,943 --> 01:12:06,280
Clearly, not all comics are great
literature, but some of them are.
908
01:12:08,115 --> 01:12:11,077
USLAN:
What Frank did in Dark Knight Returns...
909
01:12:11,244 --> 01:12:16,415
...uh, was show that the Batman, and the
mythos and the world, and Gotham City...
910
01:12:16,582 --> 01:12:20,878
...were much more serious
than the Adam West TV show...
911
01:12:21,045 --> 01:12:23,798
...or the Saturday morning Batman cartoons.
912
01:12:23,965 --> 01:12:27,134
Uh, it was a real reflection of...
913
01:12:27,301 --> 01:12:31,430
...and a real, uh, examination of...
914
01:12:31,597 --> 01:12:35,101
...vigilantism, and evil, and good...
915
01:12:35,268 --> 01:12:40,606
...and what the need and value
of these heroes really could be.
916
01:12:43,985 --> 01:12:47,738
TIMM:
Frank's version of Batman was so popular...
917
01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,145
...that was the way they went
with the movie franchise...
918
01:12:50,283 --> 01:12:54,203
...and, um, so then suddenly, you know,
everybody in pop culture...
919
01:12:54,370 --> 01:12:56,789
...suddenly has a whole new idea
of what Batman is.
920
01:12:56,956 --> 01:12:59,458
You know, the movie came out
and it was a huge success...
921
01:12:59,625 --> 01:13:03,462
...and then following right on the heels of that,
you know, we got the Batman animated series.
922
01:13:03,629 --> 01:13:07,758
And then, "Hey, thank you, Frank."
Ha, ha. Because now I have a job.
923
01:13:07,925 --> 01:13:12,430
I've been employed here at Warner Brothers
for 20-some odd years thanks to that.
924
01:13:12,930 --> 01:13:17,018
What I have had the privilege of doing...
925
01:13:17,184 --> 01:13:23,107
...is watching something go
from pulp disreputability...
926
01:13:23,274 --> 01:13:28,070
...to universal recognition
as a valid art form.
927
01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:31,240
I got to see that several times.
928
01:13:31,407 --> 01:13:34,869
Probably the first
and most significant time...
929
01:13:35,036 --> 01:13:37,914
...was the work I did with Frank.
930
01:13:38,915 --> 01:13:41,292
JANSON:
I experienced Dark Knight and Watchmen...
931
01:13:41,459 --> 01:13:43,044
...sort of from the other side.
932
01:13:43,210 --> 01:13:48,799
Urn, so I don't have the experience of, uh,
say for instance...
933
01:13:48,966 --> 01:13:51,761
...discovering, um, you know,
the first Beatle album...
934
01:13:51,928 --> 01:13:56,140
...or David Bowie,
or, you know, certain directors.
935
01:13:56,307 --> 01:14:03,230
Um, but I think that the public was ready
for, uh, this particular medium...
936
01:14:03,397 --> 01:14:05,775
...to grow up a little bit.
937
01:14:05,942 --> 01:14:07,860
They are, uh...
938
01:14:08,527 --> 01:14:12,365
...valid pieces of work, um...
939
01:14:12,573 --> 01:14:15,910
...that have the power to sustain.
940
01:14:16,077 --> 01:14:17,995
KAHN:
There, something felt really right...
941
01:14:18,162 --> 01:14:21,207
...and we had a tremendous will
to see it happen.
942
01:14:21,374 --> 01:14:23,209
And that didn't mean
we didn't run numbers.
943
01:14:23,417 --> 01:14:25,252
We did a lot of due diligence...
944
01:14:25,419 --> 01:14:29,632
...but in the end the final decision
informed by that due diligence was:
945
01:14:29,799 --> 01:14:32,426
"This could be amazing."
946
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:33,928
And it was.
947
01:14:36,931 --> 01:14:40,434
NARRATOR: Before The Dark Knight Returns
and Watchmen...
948
01:14:40,601 --> 01:14:46,565
...the social voice of comics dealt primarily
with issues plaguing young adults.
949
01:14:46,732 --> 01:14:50,778
In 1986, these two seminal publications...
950
01:14:50,945 --> 01:14:56,325
...broke the barriers and created
a new genetic makeup to the comics we love.
951
01:14:56,784 --> 01:14:59,328
The work of the greats like Frank Miller...
952
01:14:59,495 --> 01:15:04,875
...is forever galvanized in comics
and pop-culture retellings of Batman.
953
01:15:05,042 --> 01:15:10,756
We simply would not have our modern hero had
it not been for one man's determination...
954
01:15:10,923 --> 01:15:16,387
...to find his artistic freedom and voice
in Gotham's protector.
955
01:15:16,554 --> 01:15:19,390
Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns...
956
01:15:19,557 --> 01:15:23,269
...is the cornerstone
to modern Batman stories.
957
01:15:23,436 --> 01:15:30,443
In there, deep in the mind of Frank Miller,
is the proof of legend.
958
01:15:31,277 --> 01:15:32,957
MILLER:
This business is doing comic books.
959
01:15:33,112 --> 01:15:34,989
One of the things I love about my job...
960
01:15:35,156 --> 01:15:39,243
...is that you are essentially making it up
as you go along.
961
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:41,954
This is, in a way, a community property...
962
01:15:42,121 --> 01:15:46,917
...and so one of us will read
a comic book that comes out...
963
01:15:47,084 --> 01:15:51,297
...and go, "I got an idea how to use that
or how to get there."
964
01:15:51,505 --> 01:15:53,758
And it's perfectly legit.
965
01:15:53,924 --> 01:15:58,262
It's not like somebody's stealing
a plot from Sin City or something.
966
01:15:58,429 --> 01:15:59,638
It's Batman.
967
01:15:59,805 --> 01:16:06,479
I mean, I know I'm doing something
that is contributing to a collective work.
968
01:16:10,983 --> 01:16:14,820
The Dark Knight Returns gave me,
more than ever, freedom.
969
01:16:15,988 --> 01:16:20,034
And that's what, like I told you
about my conversation with Jenette Kahn...
970
01:16:20,201 --> 01:16:22,870
...it's what I've always been after.