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Operator: 911.
What's your emergency?
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Woman: We got a fire over here
in noble manor apartments.
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Woman: ♪ searching for a way
to rise above the stars ♪
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This is really a kind
of an interesting small town.
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It's fairly crime-free.
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Seems like a really good place
to raise a family.
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That's why the whole town
of noblesville
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Knows about this fire
that happened 28 years ago.
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Our victim, hope, who was 22,
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You don't get much more innocent
and sweet than her, right?
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Really a sad story.
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Siegler: We're
in noblesville, indiana
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To tackle one
of the most heartbreaking cases
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We've ever worked on--
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The arson and murder
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That took the life
of 22-year-old hope brewster,
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Her 2-year-old son, jacob,
and her unborn child.
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Hope was a wonderful mother.
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Married her
high school sweetheart, greg,
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And they were just
starting out their life.
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Spingola: And then you wonder
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What happened
during that fire up there
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That caused her and jacob
to get killed
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And then the unborn child,
of course.
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It's one thing to think
about saving your own life,
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But how do you stay calm
when you know
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It's up to you to save
your 2-year-old's life?
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There was no way out of that
building other than jumping
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Or the stairway
which collapsed and burned.
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I can't think
of a more horrible way to die.
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I can't either.
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Siegler:
In the early morning hours
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Of February the 26, 1993,
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A fire broke out at the noble
manor apartment complex.
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All of the approximately
20 residents of that building
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Escaped, except for hope
and her young son, jacob.
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Her husband, greg, survived.
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The odd circumstances
of his escape
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And his behavior that morning
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Left many of the people
in this town
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As well as the investigators
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Suspecting that maybe greg was
behind the setting of the fire.
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You take a look at this fire,
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And there's still a lot
of unanswered questions.
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We don't have any eyewitnesses.
Everybody's in bed.
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All the debris is on top.
All the water soaked everything.
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I think the other thing
we're dealing with here
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Is that atf
and the fire marshals,
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The pd, and the fire department
all show up.
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And what happened that same day?
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The world trade center bombing
happened.
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And waco happened.
And everybody abandoned them.
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Spingola: Arson cases
are uniquely difficult,
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But this one has been especially
challenging since the beginning.
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And for 28 years, hope's family
has been torn apart
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Wondering if greg
could have actually murdered
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His wife and children.
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We're hoping
with modern advancements
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In arson investigation
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That we can finally answer
that question for hope's family.
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Siegler: When we're looking
at greg brewster,
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He's either the one
that's horribly evil
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To set a fire
to wipe out his whole family,
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Or he's the biggest victim
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Because he lost his wife,
his son, and his unborn child.
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Which one is it gonna be?
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It has been 16 years
and still no answers...
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Police consider her killing
a cult killing...
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Years later,
the case is still unsolved...
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Siegler: I've chosen cold cases
from across the country
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And teamed up with the best
detectives to solve them.
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We're more determined than ever
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To bring justice
to these victims.
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- Got your big file?
- Got it.
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Hello.
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- Hello.
- How are you?
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- Deputy chief shannon trump.
- Kelly.
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- Nice to meet you.
- Steve spingola, chief.
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Shannon trump.
Nice to meet you.
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- Detective mike haskett.
- Nice to meet you finally.
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- Steve spingola.
- Nice to meet you.
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We appreciate you guys coming.
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This has been
a longtime case for us.
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We're coming up close
to 28 years.
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I bet you everybody here
remembers this case, right?
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Yeah.
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There's a lot of lingering
emotions about this case,
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And that's why we're glad to
have you here to help us out.
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- Let's go start working.
- Thank you. We appreciate it.
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This is a really bad event
that happened in this town
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And really has affected
this community over the years.
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It's a nice little setup.
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So it has purpose for me--
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To come to a resolution
for them.
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So, this is hope, huh?
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That's her high school picture.
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And she was barely
out of high school, right?
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Yeah. Hope was
six months pregnant
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At the time of the fire
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And the proud mother
of a 2-year-old boy,
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Jacob brewster.
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Siegler: That's just sad.
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Trump: Hope was a young mother
excited about raising a family.
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She loved jacob.
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She was excited
about having a second child.
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And to lose such young lives
with a lot of potential
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In an extremely tragic way,
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It is important to me
that we solve it.
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So start with the beginning
of the story.
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On February 26, 1993,
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The fire department
was called out
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To the noble manor
apartment complex
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For a fire
that was already in progress.
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When the fire department
got there, they saw people
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Hanging out the front of the
building, out of the windows.
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Everybody made it out
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Except for hope brewster
and her 2-year-old son, jacob.
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As they sifted through
the remains of the building,
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They located both of them
in the living room.
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What did greg say happened?
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He had stated that they woke up
to the smell of smoke.
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They go to the front door
and it's hot.
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So the plan was for greg
to jump down out the window,
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Which is on the back
of the building,
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And hope would then
throw jacob down to him,
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And then he would help
catch hope as she jumped down.
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Okay.
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Greg brewster jumped down,
landed flatfooted.
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He knew something
had happened to his back.
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But he stands back up,
turns around,
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Looks up to the window,
and they're gone.
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After the fire was out,
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There was a piece
of red plastic found
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At a rear entrance, exit door
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Consistent with a gas can.
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Taking samples
and lab analysis,
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We were able to piece together
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That gasoline
was definitely the accelerant
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And that this
was definitely an arson.
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What was their cause of death?
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Carbon monoxide intoxication
and smoke inhalation.
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There were no injuries
found to be suspicious.
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They found it to be consistent
with fire-related injuries.
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Okay.
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In homicide cases
involving arson,
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The fire is often used
to cover up the murder.
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But in this case,
the fire was the cause of death
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Which widens your suspect pool.
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Investigators were able
to eliminate most of them,
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Including the residents
and guests of noble manor,
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But not all of 'em.
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So you wanna start
with greg brewster?
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We can.
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How do we wanna describe
their marriage?
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We got people
that say that it was great,
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And there are others that say
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That he might
have been cheating.
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There were rumors of an affair.
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There was also concern
at how quickly greg remarried--
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Approximately within six months
of this fire.
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Did they have any issues
about jacob?
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Not that we know of.
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Okay, so then
why would greg brewster
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Want to kill his 2-year-old son?
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That's another
unanswered question.
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- That's a big one.
- Mm-hmm.
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Damn it, how do you kill
your 2-year-old son?
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It seems crazy to think
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That greg would want
to kill his 2-year-old son.
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But the other victim
in this fire was his wife,
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And over 50% of female victims
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Are murdered by a man
that they know or live with.
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What are the things
that greg did that day
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That we think
make him look guilty?
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There were concerns
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That greg had jumped
out of the window first.
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He jumped first.
What else like that?
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Where they were found. How could
they not be at the window
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When, according to greg, they
should have been at the window?
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What else goes up here?
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- The door being open.
- Okay.
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Everybody that was
in that building,
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His door was closed,
got out fine.
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Siegler: The fire investigators
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Discovered that the door
to the brewster apartment
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Was left open, which allowed
the fire and the smoke
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To directly spread
into their apartment,
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Which is what killed
hope and jacob.
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According to greg,
he never opened it.
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But could greg have been lying?
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There was concern
that once greg did jump down,
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He was warning people
that there was a fire
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And they needed to get out.
He wasn't actively trying
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To get back in
to help his family.
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Why not rescuing
your own family?
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I mean, I would be running
to a maintenance shed
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Trying to find a ladder,
anything I could do
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00:08:35,081 --> 00:08:37,750
To get back up that window.
I'd be trying to scale the wall.
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00:08:37,752 --> 00:08:39,284
And then it's on video.
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He just, you know,
calmly climbs in the ambulance.
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00:08:44,958 --> 00:08:47,926
Siegler: According
to witnesses in the report,
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00:08:47,928 --> 00:08:52,230
Greg was incorrectly told
by three different people
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00:08:52,232 --> 00:08:55,367
That his wife and his son
had escaped the fire.
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00:08:55,369 --> 00:08:58,403
But still,
according to a lot of witnesses,
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00:08:58,405 --> 00:09:02,207
Greg didn't act the way they
thought that he should have.
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00:09:02,209 --> 00:09:06,711
Now greg is either left with
the guilt he's had to endure
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00:09:06,713 --> 00:09:08,280
For how he did act,
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00:09:08,282 --> 00:09:11,650
Or he is rightfully smack in the
middle of this investigation.
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00:09:11,652 --> 00:09:13,986
Okay. R.D. Dick.
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00:09:13,988 --> 00:09:16,487
Trump: He was the local arsonist
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00:09:16,489 --> 00:09:19,257
And became a prime suspect
right away.
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00:09:19,259 --> 00:09:22,361
So, his prior conviction
was for an arson
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00:09:22,363 --> 00:09:25,797
At the then clubhouse
in noble manor.
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00:09:25,799 --> 00:09:27,265
- What?
- Yeah.
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00:09:27,267 --> 00:09:31,403
In 1985, r.D. Dick
was arrested and later convicted
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00:09:31,405 --> 00:09:33,337
For setting a fire
in the clubhouse
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00:09:33,339 --> 00:09:34,740
At the noble manor apartments.
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Although that was eight years
prior to our victim's fire,
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00:09:37,411 --> 00:09:39,210
The fact that it was
the very same building
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Is very alarming
to investigators.
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His mother lived
in that building.
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And he comes home that evening,
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And he goes to that building
and goes to bed.
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So if he's an arsonist,
he's a pretty damn stupid one.
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Yeah. And they take
his clothing and his shoes,
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00:09:52,158 --> 00:09:54,693
And they end up
sending those to the lab.
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00:09:54,695 --> 00:09:57,228
No accelerant found on any
of those articles of clothing.
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00:09:57,230 --> 00:09:59,297
Spingola: Although
r.D. Dick's clothes
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Tested negative for gasoline
at the crime lab,
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00:10:01,501 --> 00:10:03,868
We'll have to dig deeper to see
if there are any parallels
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00:10:03,870 --> 00:10:05,570
Between his past crimes
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00:10:05,572 --> 00:10:08,639
And the fire that killed
hope brewster and jacob.
233
00:10:08,641 --> 00:10:11,910
Okay, so let's put
our unknown arsonist up here.
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00:10:11,912 --> 00:10:13,711
And that building is wide open.
235
00:10:13,713 --> 00:10:15,113
You just come in here
and dump gas?
236
00:10:15,115 --> 00:10:17,248
Finding a motive
in an arson case
237
00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:19,784
Is harder than it normally is
in a murder case, right?
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00:10:19,786 --> 00:10:21,587
You set a fire.
How do you prove
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00:10:21,589 --> 00:10:23,388
That you also meant
to kill anybody,
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00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:26,057
Much less for hope
and jacob to be killed?
241
00:10:26,059 --> 00:10:28,193
When I'm looking at this case,
I'm torn,
242
00:10:28,195 --> 00:10:32,932
Because when you examine it,
if greg is the killer,
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00:10:32,934 --> 00:10:35,166
It makes it
a whole lot easier to solve.
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00:10:35,168 --> 00:10:38,236
But on a personal level,
I hope that he's not involved,
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00:10:38,238 --> 00:10:41,172
Because then
that makes him a monster,
246
00:10:41,174 --> 00:10:43,642
Which is something that
we don't even wanna think about.
247
00:10:51,952 --> 00:10:54,819
So we're gonna go meet elaine,
who's hope's sister,
248
00:10:54,821 --> 00:10:57,488
Because she's about the only
family member left, huh?
249
00:10:57,490 --> 00:10:59,023
Okay.
250
00:10:59,025 --> 00:11:00,625
A very sweet individual.
251
00:11:00,627 --> 00:11:04,430
Really is just looking
for some sort of answer.
252
00:11:04,432 --> 00:11:06,497
Even if it's just to know
who didn't do it.
253
00:11:06,499 --> 00:11:07,565
Siegler: Okay.
254
00:11:07,567 --> 00:11:09,300
For 28 years,
255
00:11:09,302 --> 00:11:12,170
Hope's family
has been tormented by the idea
256
00:11:12,172 --> 00:11:13,772
That greg brewster
was responsible
257
00:11:13,774 --> 00:11:16,241
For the murder
of hope and her sons.
258
00:11:16,243 --> 00:11:18,476
Unfortunately,
hope's mom passed away
259
00:11:18,478 --> 00:11:20,711
Without ever being able
to find out the truth.
260
00:11:20,713 --> 00:11:22,980
Hello, miss elaine. I'm kelly.
261
00:11:22,982 --> 00:11:26,184
But we desperately wanna
give hope's sister, elaine,
262
00:11:26,186 --> 00:11:28,854
The answer that she's
been waiting for for so long.
263
00:11:28,856 --> 00:11:31,322
We're happy to meet
with you this morning.
264
00:11:31,324 --> 00:11:32,992
So tell me about your family.
265
00:11:32,994 --> 00:11:34,960
A very loving family.
266
00:11:34,962 --> 00:11:38,197
When everything happened,
this was very devastating.
267
00:11:38,199 --> 00:11:40,866
It's bad enough
if you're losing your parents,
268
00:11:40,868 --> 00:11:41,933
But your siblings,
it's different.
269
00:11:41,935 --> 00:11:43,334
I know.
270
00:11:43,336 --> 00:11:46,204
There's a part of me that died
when hope died, too.
271
00:11:46,206 --> 00:11:48,339
So...
272
00:11:48,341 --> 00:11:50,141
And how did hope meet greg?
273
00:11:50,143 --> 00:11:52,410
She was working at mcdonald's,
and greg came through.
274
00:11:52,412 --> 00:11:54,747
And then after that, they
started dating and everything.
275
00:11:54,749 --> 00:11:58,416
They got married the December
before jacob was born.
276
00:11:58,418 --> 00:12:00,084
They were excited
to have a child.
277
00:12:00,086 --> 00:12:01,953
Hope had always wanted
to have kids.
278
00:12:01,955 --> 00:12:04,088
When she had jacob,
I was so happy.
279
00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:07,559
At 2 years old, he could carry
on a full conversation with you.
280
00:12:07,561 --> 00:12:09,595
He was just this little--
281
00:12:09,597 --> 00:12:12,296
Like this little man that just
never stopped, you know.
282
00:12:12,298 --> 00:12:15,833
And he--
he was an innocent child.
283
00:12:15,835 --> 00:12:18,102
When is
the first time afterwards
284
00:12:18,104 --> 00:12:19,971
That you are face-to-face
with greg
285
00:12:19,973 --> 00:12:21,305
And you talk to him about it?
286
00:12:21,307 --> 00:12:23,574
After he got released
from the hospital.
287
00:12:23,576 --> 00:12:25,510
And his thing
288
00:12:25,512 --> 00:12:28,112
Was that she would've been
right there at that window.
289
00:12:28,114 --> 00:12:29,781
But that's not
where she was found.
290
00:12:29,783 --> 00:12:33,052
There's so many things
that don't make sense.
291
00:12:33,054 --> 00:12:35,253
You've spent a lot of hours
trying to figure it out
292
00:12:35,255 --> 00:12:37,054
Even though you know
you can't know the answer?
293
00:12:37,056 --> 00:12:41,060
Yep. And I'd tucked it all away
until this all came back up.
294
00:12:41,062 --> 00:12:43,862
I know. Does it help you any
if we can figure out
295
00:12:43,864 --> 00:12:47,266
If greg really was involved
or really wasn't involved?
296
00:12:47,268 --> 00:12:50,201
It would. Just because
we were all close.
297
00:12:50,203 --> 00:12:51,736
I think it would help
more than anything
298
00:12:51,738 --> 00:12:54,005
To know he's innocent.
299
00:12:54,007 --> 00:12:56,809
You know, what, we're almost
30 years later here,
300
00:12:56,811 --> 00:12:56,874
So I would love to have answers.
301
00:12:57,075 --> 00:13:13,825
[singers vocalizing]
302
00:13:13,827 --> 00:13:16,962
It's gonna be one of those
that we just passed.
303
00:13:18,965 --> 00:13:21,365
Siegler: We're gonna pass
three streets first.
304
00:13:21,367 --> 00:13:23,167
It should be on the right.
305
00:13:23,169 --> 00:13:26,504
Siegler: In 1993, a fire was set
306
00:13:26,506 --> 00:13:28,639
At the noble manor
apartment complex.
307
00:13:28,641 --> 00:13:31,910
The lives of hope brewster,
her 2-year-old son, jacob,
308
00:13:31,912 --> 00:13:35,580
And her unborn baby
were tragically taken.
309
00:13:35,582 --> 00:13:37,649
But we don't know
if they were targeted
310
00:13:37,651 --> 00:13:40,586
By their husband and father,
greg brewster,
311
00:13:40,588 --> 00:13:43,856
Or unfortunate victims
of an arson.
312
00:13:43,858 --> 00:13:46,057
There you go. I know.
313
00:13:46,059 --> 00:13:48,727
You know, there are rumors
that you had passed away.
314
00:13:48,729 --> 00:13:50,329
[laughs] well,
I'm glad to see you.
315
00:13:50,331 --> 00:13:51,963
Thanks for being alive.
316
00:13:51,965 --> 00:13:53,465
Siegler: Greg's
questionable behavior
317
00:13:53,467 --> 00:13:55,633
During and after the fire
318
00:13:55,635 --> 00:13:58,069
Has put him right in the middle
of this investigation.
319
00:13:58,071 --> 00:14:01,205
So we've tracked down
as many of the residents
320
00:14:01,207 --> 00:14:04,809
Of the noble manor building that
greg lived in as we could find
321
00:14:04,811 --> 00:14:07,779
To see what they remember
about greg's actions that night.
322
00:14:10,350 --> 00:14:12,817
Trump: Did you know
greg and hope back then?
323
00:14:12,819 --> 00:14:15,219
I had known hope
for a long time.
324
00:14:15,221 --> 00:14:16,488
We worked
at mcdonald's together.
325
00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:17,689
Trump: Okay.
326
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,223
Nobody could say
anything bad about her.
327
00:14:19,225 --> 00:14:22,293
She was just a nice person
all the way around.
328
00:14:22,295 --> 00:14:24,662
She was telling me
about her pregnancy.
329
00:14:24,664 --> 00:14:26,264
She was really excited about it.
330
00:14:34,975 --> 00:14:37,708
Umump: Walk us through what you
remember from that evening.
331
00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:39,377
We were all in bed.
The kids were in bed.
332
00:14:39,379 --> 00:14:42,046
James and I were in bed,
and we're all in our underwear.
333
00:14:42,048 --> 00:14:43,581
I've never slept
in my underwear again.
334
00:14:43,583 --> 00:14:45,116
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Fair enough.
335
00:14:45,118 --> 00:14:47,852
Dean: Cold and snowy.
Early, early morning.
336
00:14:47,854 --> 00:14:51,255
And I heard someone yelling,
"the building's on fire.
337
00:14:51,257 --> 00:14:54,126
Help. The building's on fire."
I look outside,
338
00:14:54,128 --> 00:14:57,261
And the snow
was like glowing orange.
339
00:14:57,263 --> 00:14:59,097
I'm like, "holy crap."
340
00:15:23,757 --> 00:15:27,425
My husband at the time
said not to open the door.
341
00:15:27,427 --> 00:15:29,961
It kind of just went up,
just like that.
342
00:15:45,778 --> 00:15:49,147
We're looking around
and seeing if hope and jacob--
343
00:15:49,149 --> 00:15:50,981
We don't see any of them.
344
00:15:50,983 --> 00:15:53,385
It's like we all realized
all at once,
345
00:15:53,387 --> 00:15:55,453
"oh, my god.
They're still up in there."
346
00:15:55,455 --> 00:15:59,022
Hope isn't around to tell us
what happened in the fire.
347
00:15:59,024 --> 00:16:02,660
But through these witnesses,
it really puts in perspective
348
00:16:02,662 --> 00:16:04,929
The panic
that hope must have felt
349
00:16:04,931 --> 00:16:07,164
While she was trying to do
everything that she could
350
00:16:07,166 --> 00:16:09,501
To save her and her babies.
351
00:16:09,503 --> 00:16:11,803
And it's so tragic and crazy
352
00:16:11,805 --> 00:16:14,005
To think that everybody
got out but them.
353
00:16:14,007 --> 00:16:17,475
Has there ever been anything
that you thought was suspicious,
354
00:16:17,477 --> 00:16:19,811
Thought somebody
needs to look into?
355
00:16:23,684 --> 00:16:25,750
What did you hear about that?
356
00:16:30,557 --> 00:16:34,425
It was strange that greg
was out of the apartment first
357
00:16:34,427 --> 00:16:36,894
Instead of his pregnant wife
and his child.
358
00:16:36,896 --> 00:16:39,497
I woke up to somebody
beating on my window.
359
00:16:39,499 --> 00:16:41,232
And when I looked out,
360
00:16:41,234 --> 00:16:44,102
It was greg brewster
in his underwear.
361
00:16:44,104 --> 00:16:47,638
Trump: Do you remember
seeing greg brewster that night?
362
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,975
I remember him
kind of being frantic out there.
363
00:16:50,977 --> 00:16:53,445
We were just, like,
kind of in a panic,
364
00:16:53,447 --> 00:16:55,580
And he says
he's trying to get help
365
00:16:55,582 --> 00:16:58,049
Or something to that nature.
366
00:16:58,051 --> 00:17:01,318
Her family was talking
about why didn't he save her,
367
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,788
Why didn't he try harder.
368
00:17:03,790 --> 00:17:07,258
I just feel like maybe
he did what he could
369
00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:09,328
And then it wasn't enough.
I don't know.
370
00:17:09,330 --> 00:17:12,329
We're hearing all about
greg's strange behavior.
371
00:17:12,331 --> 00:17:15,833
But it's hard to figure out
if he just didn't act the way
372
00:17:15,835 --> 00:17:17,402
Everybody thought
he should've acted
373
00:17:17,404 --> 00:17:19,103
Or if he had something to hide.
374
00:17:19,105 --> 00:17:21,405
And you did or didn't know
r.D. Dick?
375
00:17:21,407 --> 00:17:23,440
- I just knew of him.
- Of him. Okay.
376
00:17:23,442 --> 00:17:25,711
I mean, I knew who he was.
One of those bad guys in town.
377
00:17:25,713 --> 00:17:27,445
You know who they are, so...
[laughs]
378
00:17:27,447 --> 00:17:29,413
Once you did see r.D.,
379
00:17:29,415 --> 00:17:32,316
I assume you talked
about the fire out there.
380
00:17:35,622 --> 00:17:38,223
What did he say to you
about the fire?
381
00:17:45,366 --> 00:17:48,300
It's clear that the residents
of noble manor
382
00:17:48,302 --> 00:17:52,002
Have incredibly indelible
memories of that night.
383
00:17:52,004 --> 00:17:55,440
But, unfortunately, when it
comes to who was responsible,
384
00:17:55,442 --> 00:17:58,008
There's a lot
of speculation and rumor.
385
00:17:58,010 --> 00:18:00,178
We're gonna need
a lot more than that
386
00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:04,048
To figure out who set this fire
that killed hope and jacob.
387
00:18:04,050 --> 00:18:06,051
You ever know
of any other people
388
00:18:06,053 --> 00:18:07,585
That like to set fires?
389
00:18:09,922 --> 00:18:11,322
Okay.
390
00:18:11,456 --> 00:18:19,664
'cause, obviously,
somebody around here did, right?
391
00:18:19,665 --> 00:18:27,873
Kelly. Jason.
Jason, this is kelly.
392
00:18:27,875 --> 00:18:29,540
- Hello.
- Nice to meet you.
393
00:18:29,542 --> 00:18:31,809
We still got three suspects
394
00:18:31,811 --> 00:18:35,479
In the tragic murder of
hope brewster and her babies--
395
00:18:35,481 --> 00:18:36,914
Her husband, greg,
396
00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:39,717
A convicted arsonist
who lived in their building,
397
00:18:39,719 --> 00:18:41,420
And an unknown arsonist.
398
00:18:41,422 --> 00:18:43,220
Thank you for popping in
on your lunch
399
00:18:43,222 --> 00:18:45,290
On such quick notice for us.
400
00:18:45,292 --> 00:18:47,658
Siegler: If greg brewster
did set the fire,
401
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:50,728
We wanna figure out
why he would do it.
402
00:18:50,730 --> 00:18:53,831
There were rumors of problems
in their marriage,
403
00:18:53,833 --> 00:18:56,033
But was it so bad
404
00:18:56,035 --> 00:18:58,603
That any of that could
have escalated to a murder?
405
00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:01,973
You obviously know
what we're here to talk about
406
00:19:01,975 --> 00:19:04,842
Which is the fire that happened
in 1993 at noble manor.
407
00:19:04,844 --> 00:19:06,243
Do you remember
when you were told
408
00:19:06,245 --> 00:19:07,846
That hope and jacob
didn't make it out?
409
00:19:17,390 --> 00:19:19,823
I talked to greg quite a bit
after the fact.
410
00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:21,392
From what he had said--
411
00:19:21,394 --> 00:19:23,028
When the apartment
caught on fire,
412
00:19:23,030 --> 00:19:24,862
Smoke was pouring in
through the apartment.
413
00:19:24,864 --> 00:19:26,531
Did he say that?
"smoke pouring in."
414
00:19:26,533 --> 00:19:28,733
Yeah. It was already
in the apartment.
415
00:19:28,735 --> 00:19:31,335
He checked the front door.
The front door was blazing hot.
416
00:19:31,337 --> 00:19:33,472
Greg was gonna jump,
gonna catch the kid
417
00:19:33,474 --> 00:19:35,005
And try to catch her.
418
00:19:35,007 --> 00:19:37,541
His story is that he jumped out
and popped right back up.
419
00:19:37,543 --> 00:19:39,478
He broke his back
when he landed.
420
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,013
I don't think he popped back up.
I just have a feeling
421
00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:43,681
That he probably landed
a lot harder
422
00:19:43,683 --> 00:19:46,083
Than what he thinks he did,
especially if he broke his back.
423
00:19:46,085 --> 00:19:47,685
If it only was just
a few minutes,
424
00:19:47,687 --> 00:19:50,354
That might have been enough
for hope to succumb to the smoke
425
00:19:50,356 --> 00:19:52,289
And that'd been it.
426
00:19:52,291 --> 00:19:54,292
Siegler: Do you think
that those were crucial seconds
427
00:19:54,294 --> 00:19:56,761
Where maybe that's where
she was at the window
428
00:19:56,763 --> 00:19:58,596
And he just missed seeing her,
and then she--
429
00:19:58,598 --> 00:20:00,031
- That's my thoughts.
- Okay.
430
00:20:00,033 --> 00:20:02,833
Jason acknowledges
the significance
431
00:20:02,835 --> 00:20:04,635
Of greg's broken back
432
00:20:04,637 --> 00:20:06,972
And the part that might
have played in the fact
433
00:20:06,974 --> 00:20:10,041
That hope and jacob did not
make it out of that fire.
434
00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:19,617
It makes you wonder
if that's all it took
435
00:20:19,619 --> 00:20:21,887
For hope to second-guess
that escape plan.
436
00:20:21,889 --> 00:20:24,522
And you said you talked to greg
quite a bit after.
437
00:20:24,524 --> 00:20:25,757
I did.
438
00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:26,891
How did he seem?
439
00:20:26,893 --> 00:20:29,294
Very distraught.
Underneath, he was broken.
440
00:20:29,296 --> 00:20:30,928
He just lost his family.
441
00:20:30,930 --> 00:20:33,197
Did you ever hear anything
before this happen,
442
00:20:33,199 --> 00:20:35,699
Either from hope
or from greg or from anybody,
443
00:20:35,701 --> 00:20:38,302
They were having
any kind of marital problems?
444
00:20:38,304 --> 00:20:40,804
- No.
- Affairs? Money problems?
445
00:20:40,806 --> 00:20:42,673
"we got married too young."
none of that?
446
00:20:42,675 --> 00:20:44,209
None. Quite the opposite.
447
00:20:44,211 --> 00:20:46,410
I knew that he loved hope.
448
00:20:46,412 --> 00:20:49,146
It always seemed
like a cohesive unit.
449
00:20:49,148 --> 00:20:51,816
If you're mad at your wife or
your family or your situation,
450
00:20:51,818 --> 00:20:53,817
There's no logic in me
451
00:20:53,819 --> 00:20:56,888
That says, "yeah. I'm gonna set
my own house on fire."
452
00:20:56,890 --> 00:20:58,689
No. I wouldn't see him
setting it on fire
453
00:20:58,691 --> 00:21:01,091
If he was unhappy
or wanted to leave or...
454
00:21:01,093 --> 00:21:04,094
Siegler: And to your point,
how did greg feel about his son?
455
00:21:04,096 --> 00:21:05,463
He loved his son.
456
00:21:07,834 --> 00:21:09,901
[line ringing]
457
00:21:11,038 --> 00:21:13,837
Hey. This is shannon.
How are you?
458
00:21:13,839 --> 00:21:15,639
- I'm good. How are you?
- Good.
459
00:21:15,641 --> 00:21:18,909
Missy chapman was one
of hope's closest friends.
460
00:21:18,911 --> 00:21:21,278
So if there were any problems
in that marriage,
461
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,846
She's someone
that would have known about it.
462
00:21:22,848 --> 00:21:24,782
You were close with hope, right?
463
00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:26,984
Hope and greg's relationship.
464
00:21:26,986 --> 00:21:30,154
We'd had a couple of rumors of
somebody cheating on somebody.
465
00:21:40,132 --> 00:21:41,333
Okay.
466
00:21:41,335 --> 00:21:44,302
You talked to greg
after all this happened.
467
00:21:44,304 --> 00:21:45,602
Yeah.
468
00:21:45,604 --> 00:21:47,538
Can you walk me
through his account
469
00:21:47,540 --> 00:21:49,174
Of what happened that night?
470
00:22:00,486 --> 00:22:03,788
Did he ever say he maybe went
to open the door or tried to?
471
00:22:06,827 --> 00:22:07,959
Okay.
472
00:22:15,601 --> 00:22:21,705
[voice cracking]
473
00:22:21,707 --> 00:22:25,009
You're okay, missy.
I know how hard it is for you.
474
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:59,209
When you said greg
was going out the window,
475
00:22:59,211 --> 00:23:02,280
Do you think he's certain
she's right by the window?
476
00:23:06,353 --> 00:23:08,953
Okay. What's your gut instinct?
477
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:12,590
Yeah.
478
00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:27,505
Right. I know, missy. I--
I am so sorry.
479
00:23:27,507 --> 00:23:29,574
Trust me when I tell you
I would not call you
480
00:23:29,576 --> 00:23:32,110
And ask you to go through this
if it wasn't important.
481
00:23:36,248 --> 00:23:39,283
We haven't heard anything
that supports a motive
482
00:23:39,285 --> 00:23:41,585
For greg to want
to kill his family.
483
00:23:41,587 --> 00:23:43,455
But according
to these witnesses,
484
00:23:43,457 --> 00:23:45,255
Greg didn't open the door,
485
00:23:45,257 --> 00:23:47,959
And hope and jacob
were by the window.
486
00:23:47,961 --> 00:23:49,993
Could greg have been lying?
487
00:23:49,995 --> 00:23:53,231
Could hope have panicked
and opened the door herself?
488
00:23:53,233 --> 00:23:56,000
We're gonna need to recreate
the events of that night
489
00:23:56,002 --> 00:23:56,066
To try and figure out
what happened.
490
00:23:56,267 --> 00:24:10,747
Have you ever had a case where
the focus of the investigation
491
00:24:10,749 --> 00:24:12,282
Didn't act heroically
492
00:24:12,284 --> 00:24:13,617
And people wanna turn that
into a crime?
493
00:24:13,619 --> 00:24:14,818
Oh, yeah.
494
00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:16,820
I don't think
I ever had one like that.
495
00:24:16,822 --> 00:24:20,458
While some witnesses believed
that greg acted odd
496
00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:22,526
The night that hope
and jacob were killed,
497
00:24:22,528 --> 00:24:26,897
We've yet to find any motive
for him to want them dead.
498
00:24:26,899 --> 00:24:29,768
We know that hope and jacob died
of smoke inhalation,
499
00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:32,770
But what actually occurred
in their apartment that night
500
00:24:32,772 --> 00:24:34,037
Is still a mystery.
501
00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:35,706
- Good morning.
- Good morning, kelly.
502
00:24:35,708 --> 00:24:38,342
Boy, we're excited to see you.
We're kind of old.
503
00:24:38,344 --> 00:24:40,711
When we first worked
our first arson cases,
504
00:24:40,713 --> 00:24:41,912
It was way different, right?
505
00:24:41,914 --> 00:24:42,847
Yeah, it was.
506
00:24:42,849 --> 00:24:45,916
Arson expert, stu morrison,
507
00:24:45,918 --> 00:24:48,485
Has analyzed the characteristics
of the fire,
508
00:24:48,487 --> 00:24:50,855
And he's here today
to try and help us recreate
509
00:24:50,857 --> 00:24:53,123
The crime scene
and share his findings.
510
00:24:53,125 --> 00:24:55,392
Alarm came in
at 2:45 in the morning.
511
00:24:55,394 --> 00:24:57,127
From reading the fire report,
512
00:24:57,129 --> 00:24:59,597
They're there
until 10:17 in the morning.
513
00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:01,665
So it's a good eight hours
of fighting fires.
514
00:25:01,667 --> 00:25:04,668
When we're looking at fire
damages to determine origin,
515
00:25:04,670 --> 00:25:06,937
We're looking to see
what it's done to the walls,
516
00:25:06,939 --> 00:25:09,339
Where the fire
has burned the longest
517
00:25:09,341 --> 00:25:11,208
And the fiercest
or the heaviest.
518
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:14,211
So in this case,
the staircase to the third floor
519
00:25:14,213 --> 00:25:16,346
Being almost
completely destroyed.
520
00:25:16,348 --> 00:25:19,283
The fact that that is gone
is significant to this.
521
00:25:19,285 --> 00:25:20,817
- Siegler: Okay.
- And that's consistent
522
00:25:20,819 --> 00:25:23,754
Where the fire originating
in the hallway and coming up.
523
00:25:23,756 --> 00:25:25,055
Multiple witnesses.
524
00:25:25,057 --> 00:25:27,557
We're all seeing fire burning
at floor level,
525
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:28,625
On that second floor level.
526
00:25:28,627 --> 00:25:29,561
Okay.
527
00:25:29,563 --> 00:25:30,828
Fire goes up and out.
528
00:25:30,830 --> 00:25:33,297
So if you're seeing
floor-level burn,
529
00:25:33,299 --> 00:25:34,965
It indicates that there's
a fuel package there
530
00:25:34,967 --> 00:25:37,969
Consistent with gasoline having
being poured in that area.
531
00:25:37,971 --> 00:25:40,505
Fires that are on staircases,
532
00:25:40,507 --> 00:25:43,073
Generally it's meant
for one thing,
533
00:25:43,075 --> 00:25:44,841
And that's so that people
can't get out.
534
00:25:44,843 --> 00:25:48,579
Arsonists light fires
for all kinds of reasons.
535
00:25:48,581 --> 00:25:50,781
Sometimes they do it
to get kicks,
536
00:25:50,783 --> 00:25:53,283
And sometimes they do it
to cause harm.
537
00:25:53,285 --> 00:25:57,055
Based on stu's findings,
it feels like this fire was set
538
00:25:57,057 --> 00:25:59,189
To do a lot more
than just damage property.
539
00:25:59,191 --> 00:26:02,794
You can see that that fire
basically went from zero to 60
540
00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:04,695
In a very short period of time,
541
00:26:04,697 --> 00:26:06,797
And that's consistent
with gasoline.
542
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:09,566
This is me pouring
less than a half a gallon
543
00:26:09,568 --> 00:26:11,802
Of gasoline onto a carpet.
544
00:26:11,804 --> 00:26:13,870
You'll see right here
just how quickly it ignites.
545
00:26:13,872 --> 00:26:16,574
And then the amount
of smoke and heat
546
00:26:16,576 --> 00:26:19,143
That's being generated right off
the bat is significant.
547
00:26:19,145 --> 00:26:21,011
Look at that.
I thought it would take a while
548
00:26:21,013 --> 00:26:22,346
To get that black, right?
549
00:26:22,348 --> 00:26:24,481
Going to the window
and going out,
550
00:26:24,483 --> 00:26:26,216
You should be generally clear
551
00:26:26,218 --> 00:26:28,218
Once you stick your head
out that window.
552
00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:29,953
- Siegler: Okay.
- And last,
553
00:26:29,955 --> 00:26:31,955
The door to that apartment
is open,
554
00:26:31,957 --> 00:26:33,557
And all that smoke
is coming through.
555
00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:35,126
Fire always rises up,
556
00:26:35,128 --> 00:26:37,260
And then it's gonna be
looking for air.
557
00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:39,329
Because the area's enclosed
558
00:26:39,331 --> 00:26:41,565
And the staircase
doesn't know where to go,
559
00:26:41,567 --> 00:26:44,768
That fire and smoke is just
gonna rise up that chimney
560
00:26:44,770 --> 00:26:47,137
That's being produced
right up that staircase,
561
00:26:47,139 --> 00:26:49,641
And there it's gonna stay
until something happens.
562
00:26:49,643 --> 00:26:52,643
Either the ceiling collapses,
the roof burns through
563
00:26:52,645 --> 00:26:54,378
And it has a way
to vent through there,
564
00:26:54,380 --> 00:26:55,846
Or someone opens the door
565
00:26:55,848 --> 00:26:57,648
And it gets
into the brewster apartment.
566
00:26:57,650 --> 00:26:59,082
With that door closed,
567
00:26:59,084 --> 00:27:01,318
You've basically made
a fire separation
568
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,788
To keep the fire
out in the hallway.
569
00:27:03,790 --> 00:27:05,989
By opening that door
and opening that window,
570
00:27:05,991 --> 00:27:08,125
This is ground zero.
571
00:27:08,127 --> 00:27:09,659
It's not gonna be survivable,
572
00:27:09,661 --> 00:27:12,963
And it's not gonna be survivable
fairly instantaneously.
573
00:27:12,965 --> 00:27:14,599
Is there any explanation
you can think of
574
00:27:14,601 --> 00:27:18,001
On how the door could get open
without somebody opening it?
575
00:27:18,003 --> 00:27:21,338
Fire won't open a door until it
physically burns through that.
576
00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:23,408
If that door had been closed,
577
00:27:23,410 --> 00:27:25,075
Arguably we should
have been able
578
00:27:25,077 --> 00:27:27,077
To rescue her out that window.
579
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:29,880
The brewsters' door
was the only apartment door
580
00:27:29,882 --> 00:27:31,615
On the complex that was open
581
00:27:31,617 --> 00:27:35,485
Which caused more smoke
to fill up their apartment,
582
00:27:35,487 --> 00:27:38,155
And that's what led
to hope and jacob's death.
583
00:27:38,157 --> 00:27:40,491
But there are two big questions
about the scene.
584
00:27:40,493 --> 00:27:41,826
Who opened that door,
585
00:27:41,828 --> 00:27:44,961
And why weren't hope and jacob
by the window
586
00:27:44,963 --> 00:27:46,964
Where greg claimed
they would be?
587
00:27:46,966 --> 00:27:49,033
We're sure these dimensions are
right before we start talking?
588
00:27:49,035 --> 00:27:51,302
Yeah, it's
a pretty good size living room.
589
00:27:51,304 --> 00:27:53,171
And over here
is the dining area.
590
00:27:53,173 --> 00:27:54,504
Okay.
591
00:27:54,506 --> 00:27:56,507
The first theory to explore
592
00:27:56,509 --> 00:27:59,676
Is that greg opened
that door intentionally
593
00:27:59,678 --> 00:28:01,645
Before the fire got out of hand
594
00:28:01,647 --> 00:28:04,281
As part of his plan
to kill his family.
595
00:28:04,283 --> 00:28:06,117
Let's start with the things
that we know.
596
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,351
We know
where hope's body is found.
597
00:28:08,353 --> 00:28:11,456
Hope is basically
in this area.
598
00:28:11,458 --> 00:28:13,924
Jacob's right where
you're standing.
599
00:28:13,926 --> 00:28:16,927
And then the exit window
is right behind us.
600
00:28:16,929 --> 00:28:19,930
Let's do common sense,
logic, process of elimination.
601
00:28:19,932 --> 00:28:22,699
If greg opened the door
and set the fire,
602
00:28:22,701 --> 00:28:25,068
Where's the gas can
in that scenario?
603
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:27,738
Down on the second level.
604
00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:30,741
The remains of the gas can
were actually found burned
605
00:28:30,743 --> 00:28:32,676
Near the rear exit
on the second floor,
606
00:28:32,678 --> 00:28:34,544
One floor below the bursters.
607
00:28:34,546 --> 00:28:35,880
So if greg did set the fire,
608
00:28:35,882 --> 00:28:37,514
He would have had
to drop the gas can,
609
00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:40,350
Then run back up to the third
floor and actually set the fire.
610
00:28:40,352 --> 00:28:42,819
There's no gasoline
ever found in greg's apartment.
611
00:28:42,821 --> 00:28:47,157
So they dump some gas down
the stairway, down the landing.
612
00:28:47,159 --> 00:28:49,426
Now he's on the second floor,
right?
613
00:28:49,428 --> 00:28:52,429
He dumps some in front of
the doors, back out the hallway.
614
00:28:52,431 --> 00:28:53,964
Drops the can of gas.
615
00:28:53,966 --> 00:28:57,902
Could he have walked through
the accelerant to the apartment,
616
00:28:57,904 --> 00:29:00,438
Leave the door open,
drops a match,
617
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,839
Then gets out the window?
Is it possible?
618
00:29:02,841 --> 00:29:04,040
Yep.
619
00:29:04,042 --> 00:29:05,175
Spingola: While it is possible,
620
00:29:05,177 --> 00:29:06,711
When you take a look
at all the steps
621
00:29:06,713 --> 00:29:09,746
Greg would've taken to actually
set this fire and kill hope,
622
00:29:09,748 --> 00:29:11,381
It seems very farfetched.
623
00:29:11,383 --> 00:29:13,384
Number one, you think he would
have left the gas can
624
00:29:13,386 --> 00:29:14,785
Closer to his apartment.
625
00:29:14,787 --> 00:29:16,920
And two, if hope was his target,
626
00:29:16,922 --> 00:29:18,589
It's odd that he would have
relied on a weapon
627
00:29:18,591 --> 00:29:20,191
So unpredictable as fire,
628
00:29:20,193 --> 00:29:22,659
All while endangering
all of the other innocent people
629
00:29:22,661 --> 00:29:24,594
In that apartment building.
630
00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:26,797
If hope's the one
that opens the door--
631
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:28,532
The smoke is,
you know, one factor--
632
00:29:28,534 --> 00:29:31,201
We can't even calculate
her panic level, right?
633
00:29:31,203 --> 00:29:34,004
She's dealing with her life,
this life, and this life.
634
00:29:34,006 --> 00:29:35,940
We know he jumps.
635
00:29:35,942 --> 00:29:37,875
We know hope
didn't drop the baby down.
636
00:29:37,877 --> 00:29:39,476
- We know hope didn't jump.
- Yeah.
637
00:29:39,478 --> 00:29:42,480
So maybe she thought,
"let me try that door again."
638
00:29:42,482 --> 00:29:44,614
Are you saying
the door's closed still?
639
00:29:44,616 --> 00:29:47,085
Yes. 'cause she's thinking,
"that's too far.
640
00:29:47,087 --> 00:29:50,320
I can't drop him. He's too
little. Greg won't catch him.
641
00:29:50,322 --> 00:29:51,789
Let me try it again."
642
00:29:51,791 --> 00:29:54,458
She goes all
the way back to the door.
643
00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:55,726
The doorknob's hot,
644
00:29:55,728 --> 00:29:57,260
But she can figure out
how to open the doorknob.
645
00:29:57,262 --> 00:30:00,230
She opens it, comes back in,
646
00:30:00,232 --> 00:30:03,166
Dragging jacob
or holding jacob or whatever.
647
00:30:03,168 --> 00:30:04,769
Gets this far.
648
00:30:04,771 --> 00:30:06,970
That's the only thing I can
figure out that makes sense.
649
00:30:06,972 --> 00:30:09,907
That he didn't open the door.
He just jumped.
650
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:12,642
And she thought,
"I'm gonna get a better way."
651
00:30:12,644 --> 00:30:15,512
Spingola: I've been in one fire.
652
00:30:15,514 --> 00:30:17,314
That smoke, you can't see,
you can't breathe.
653
00:30:17,316 --> 00:30:20,317
It was petrifying. And I was
a trained police officer.
654
00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:22,153
I can hardly imagine
what hope was going through
655
00:30:22,155 --> 00:30:23,988
The minute the apartment
was filling with smoke.
656
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:25,255
And you realize
what's happening.
657
00:30:25,257 --> 00:30:27,123
That had to be so chaotic.
658
00:30:27,125 --> 00:30:30,861
I've seen cops in fires panic
and run and do dumb things.
659
00:30:30,863 --> 00:30:33,064
You're not thinking
like you and I are right now.
660
00:30:33,066 --> 00:30:34,799
Siegler: She doesn't know
what the hell's going on.
661
00:30:34,801 --> 00:30:36,466
And it got a lot worse
a lot faster.
662
00:30:36,468 --> 00:30:39,736
It seems more likely
that hope opened that door
663
00:30:39,738 --> 00:30:41,137
Because she panicked.
664
00:30:41,139 --> 00:30:44,274
And in that instant, all
that fire and smoke rushed in,
665
00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:46,343
Killing her and her babies.
666
00:30:46,345 --> 00:30:48,878
As a mother, that's horrifying.
667
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,381
It's also heartbreaking
668
00:30:50,383 --> 00:30:55,285
To think about how everyone in
this town for the last 28 years
669
00:30:55,287 --> 00:30:57,487
Have considered greg
to be a monster,
670
00:30:57,489 --> 00:31:00,557
And now it's pretty clear
that he is a victim, too.
671
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:04,561
But if greg isn't responsible
for killing hope and jacob,
672
00:31:04,563 --> 00:31:04,628
Then who is?
673
00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:19,909
Let's give his attorney
a call again.
674
00:31:19,911 --> 00:31:21,878
So it's looking less and less
like greg brewster
675
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,147
Actually had anything to do with
the death of his wife and child.
676
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:26,483
But we do wanna speak to him
to confirm his story.
677
00:31:26,485 --> 00:31:29,252
Greg, I'm gonna ask you
the big question.
678
00:31:29,254 --> 00:31:30,888
Did you start this fire?
679
00:31:33,392 --> 00:31:35,792
Do you know who did?
680
00:31:35,794 --> 00:31:37,394
We left a message
for him yesterday
681
00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:40,463
Just to see what he thinks
about us talking to greg again.
682
00:31:40,465 --> 00:31:42,666
Greg hired an attorney
two years ago
683
00:31:42,668 --> 00:31:44,234
After he gave a statement
in this case.
684
00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:46,136
[line ringing]
685
00:31:46,138 --> 00:31:47,938
Automated voice: Thank you
for calling boje, benner,
686
00:31:47,940 --> 00:31:49,774
Becker, markovich & hixson.
687
00:31:49,776 --> 00:31:52,275
It's often believed
that when a person lawyers up,
688
00:31:52,277 --> 00:31:53,678
It's an indication of guilt.
689
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,680
But in greg's case, he's
actually been very cooperative
690
00:31:56,682 --> 00:31:58,081
With law enforcement
over the years.
691
00:31:58,083 --> 00:32:00,084
All right. Bye.
692
00:32:00,086 --> 00:32:02,953
Greg's lawyer informed us
that he has told law enforcement
693
00:32:02,955 --> 00:32:04,688
Everything he knows
about this crime.
694
00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:06,589
However, he is willing
to call greg
695
00:32:06,591 --> 00:32:09,093
To see if he wants
to talk to us one more time.
696
00:32:11,831 --> 00:32:15,233
Haskett: So we're going
to see r.D. Dick.
697
00:32:15,235 --> 00:32:18,969
He was initially probably
the main suspect.
698
00:32:18,971 --> 00:32:20,570
So while we wait
to hear back from greg,
699
00:32:20,572 --> 00:32:23,239
We wanna take a look at the two
other suspects on our board,
700
00:32:23,241 --> 00:32:25,809
Starting with local arsonist
r.D. Dick.
701
00:32:25,811 --> 00:32:27,477
Robert, how you doing?
702
00:32:27,479 --> 00:32:30,079
Although his clothes
tested negative for gasoline,
703
00:32:30,081 --> 00:32:32,716
Which we know was used
as an accelerant in this case,
704
00:32:32,718 --> 00:32:34,651
The fact that he actually
lived at noble manor
705
00:32:34,653 --> 00:32:37,120
And was previously convicted
of an arson there
706
00:32:37,122 --> 00:32:38,923
Makes him a viable suspect
in this crime.
707
00:32:38,925 --> 00:32:42,660
My memory, it's gone to hell.
All that liquor I drank.
708
00:32:42,662 --> 00:32:44,327
Well, you know
why we wanna talk to you.
709
00:32:44,329 --> 00:32:46,396
It's about this fire
in noble manor.
710
00:32:46,398 --> 00:32:49,699
Do you remember that evening,
where you were at before?
711
00:32:49,701 --> 00:32:52,002
I'm sure I'd been
probably somewhere,
712
00:32:52,004 --> 00:32:55,672
But I know that I came home
and went to bed or I ate dinner.
713
00:32:55,674 --> 00:32:58,007
Mom said she fixed me
a tv dinner.
714
00:32:58,009 --> 00:33:01,077
And I never left. I went to bed.
715
00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:04,081
Mom woke me up and told me
that there's a fire.
716
00:33:04,083 --> 00:33:05,415
Have you ever been so drunk
717
00:33:05,417 --> 00:33:07,350
That you didn't remember
what you'd done?
718
00:33:07,352 --> 00:33:10,687
No. Never.
719
00:33:10,689 --> 00:33:14,290
Those ----ing arsons that I did,
I remember them.
720
00:33:14,292 --> 00:33:17,427
How many fires were you
involved with, mr. Dick?
721
00:33:17,429 --> 00:33:21,632
I believe it was two--
the clubhouse and the house.
722
00:33:21,634 --> 00:33:23,166
Well, they thought
you did four of 'em.
723
00:33:23,168 --> 00:33:25,569
And possibly maybe three.
724
00:33:25,571 --> 00:33:28,638
Yeah, there was cherry street.
Cherry and maple.
725
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,507
Those were both
on the same night.
726
00:33:30,509 --> 00:33:31,841
They were both curtains.
727
00:33:31,843 --> 00:33:33,843
Yeah, and then you're right.
728
00:33:33,845 --> 00:33:35,579
I ----ing forgotten about that.
729
00:33:35,581 --> 00:33:37,915
R.D. Seems a little hazy
on some of his details.
730
00:33:37,917 --> 00:33:39,416
It could be the passage of time,
731
00:33:39,418 --> 00:33:40,917
The amount of alcohol
he's consumed,
732
00:33:40,919 --> 00:33:42,419
Or the fact
that he's trying to be evasive.
733
00:33:42,421 --> 00:33:44,387
But we need to hit him
with some more pointed questions
734
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:45,455
About this crime.
735
00:33:45,457 --> 00:33:47,123
This fire at noble manor,
736
00:33:47,125 --> 00:33:49,059
I had nothing to do with it.
737
00:33:49,061 --> 00:33:52,496
The clubhouse, I did do.
I admitted that.
738
00:33:52,498 --> 00:33:55,399
I was drinking one night,
and I had no intention
739
00:33:55,401 --> 00:33:58,535
Of even lighting
that ----ing curtain
740
00:33:58,537 --> 00:34:01,404
Until the minute
I went to walk out.
741
00:34:01,406 --> 00:34:04,875
And I just took my lighter
and lit it. I admit that.
742
00:34:04,877 --> 00:34:08,278
You think you were unfairly
targeted with this, mr. Dick?
743
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,948
Well, kinda, in a way,
'cause you know me.
744
00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:13,550
I was a ----ing ass, and a...
745
00:34:13,552 --> 00:34:15,752
And a menace
of ----ing hamilton county.
746
00:34:15,754 --> 00:34:17,554
Once and for all,
let's put this to bed.
747
00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:19,556
Did you start this fire?
No bullsh--.
748
00:34:19,558 --> 00:34:21,758
- No, sir.
- Convince me you didn't do it.
749
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,293
Why wouldn't you have done this?
750
00:34:23,295 --> 00:34:27,363
Because I don't have the heart
to hurt someone like that.
751
00:34:27,365 --> 00:34:31,768
I never went out intentionally
to ----ing hurt anybody.
752
00:34:31,770 --> 00:34:33,770
The last thing I'd ever do
753
00:34:33,772 --> 00:34:37,240
Is put my mom in danger way
like that.
754
00:34:37,242 --> 00:34:39,042
Never.
755
00:34:39,044 --> 00:34:43,580
Did you ever use an accelerant--
gasoline, oil, kerosene?
756
00:34:43,582 --> 00:34:45,583
No. No, sir.
757
00:34:45,585 --> 00:34:48,852
Anytime I did ----ing
start a little ----ing fire,
758
00:34:48,854 --> 00:34:51,254
It was with a lighter.
759
00:34:51,256 --> 00:34:55,925
I never used any kind of gas
or anything, ever.
760
00:34:55,927 --> 00:34:58,229
Spingola: In looking
at r.D.'s past crimes,
761
00:34:58,231 --> 00:34:59,597
We've confirmed
that he has an m.O.
762
00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:02,265
Of setting curtains on fire
in vacant buildings.
763
00:35:02,267 --> 00:35:04,000
- Take care, sir.
- Uh-huh. You, too.
764
00:35:04,002 --> 00:35:05,535
When we talk about an m.O.,
or a modus operandi,
765
00:35:05,537 --> 00:35:07,003
It's learned behavior.
766
00:35:07,005 --> 00:35:09,406
It's "what worked last time
is gonna work this time."
767
00:35:09,408 --> 00:35:10,941
It's like you and I do
768
00:35:10,943 --> 00:35:13,611
Whenever we cut the grass
or whenever we paint the house.
769
00:35:13,613 --> 00:35:15,979
It worked last time, so let's do
the same thing this time.
770
00:35:15,981 --> 00:35:18,448
Arsonists have specific m.O.'s,
771
00:35:18,450 --> 00:35:19,750
And they
follow those religiously.
772
00:35:19,752 --> 00:35:22,619
And right now, my gut is
telling me r.D. Is not our guy.
773
00:35:22,621 --> 00:35:24,621
Fire setters,
they're just weird people
774
00:35:24,623 --> 00:35:26,756
To try to figure out
their dynamics and...
775
00:35:26,758 --> 00:35:28,224
Haskett: Well,
they're all different.
776
00:35:28,226 --> 00:35:30,994
It's like sex offenders.
Every one of them's different.
777
00:35:34,733 --> 00:35:36,066
- How you doing?
- Hi.
778
00:35:36,068 --> 00:35:38,201
- Hello, guys.
- This is kelly and steve.
779
00:35:38,203 --> 00:35:39,969
- How you doing, sir?
- Hi.
780
00:35:39,971 --> 00:35:41,971
Now it's time
that we address the idea
781
00:35:41,973 --> 00:35:45,375
That it was an unknown arsonist
who committed this fire.
782
00:35:45,377 --> 00:35:47,710
Chris gellinger
and joel musselman
783
00:35:47,712 --> 00:35:49,012
Were firemen back then,
784
00:35:49,014 --> 00:35:50,981
And we wanna see
if they have any knowledge
785
00:35:50,983 --> 00:35:53,850
Of other fires that were
being set in noblesville
786
00:35:53,852 --> 00:35:56,719
Back around the same time,
with the hopes of seeing
787
00:35:56,721 --> 00:35:59,055
If there are any similarities
or parallels
788
00:35:59,057 --> 00:36:00,523
With the noble manor fire.
789
00:36:00,525 --> 00:36:02,592
How much do y'all remember
about other arsons
790
00:36:02,594 --> 00:36:03,928
Happening around town?
791
00:36:03,930 --> 00:36:05,862
In that same time frame,
792
00:36:05,864 --> 00:36:07,731
I know we had one
on the north side of the square,
793
00:36:07,733 --> 00:36:10,468
Similar, where somebody threw
an accelerant up a stairway
794
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:11,534
And lit it.
795
00:36:11,536 --> 00:36:13,069
What?
796
00:36:13,071 --> 00:36:14,472
We had to pull somebody
off a roof there.
797
00:36:14,474 --> 00:36:18,541
We got it put out quick,
so it didn't do a lot of damage.
798
00:36:18,543 --> 00:36:20,543
A similar one on evans avenue.
799
00:36:20,545 --> 00:36:23,413
It was thrown down small stairs
into a laundry room.
800
00:36:23,415 --> 00:36:26,015
This one also involves
accelerant on the stairs?
801
00:36:26,017 --> 00:36:27,150
I believe so, yes.
802
00:36:27,152 --> 00:36:28,685
Sh--.
803
00:36:28,687 --> 00:36:33,489
So you have fires
prior to the brewster fire?
804
00:36:33,491 --> 00:36:34,557
Correct.
805
00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:36,426
All in an apartment complex,
806
00:36:36,428 --> 00:36:38,227
In the stairwell,
with an accelerant.
807
00:36:38,229 --> 00:36:41,465
There were actually three
other fires using accelerants
808
00:36:41,467 --> 00:36:44,767
Within close proximity
to noble manor apartments.
809
00:36:44,769 --> 00:36:47,604
- Thank y'all very much.
- Absolutely.
810
00:36:47,606 --> 00:36:50,206
Unlike r.D. Dick's fires,
these match the m.O.
811
00:36:50,208 --> 00:36:52,910
Of the fire set in noble manor
which killed hope and jacob.
812
00:36:52,912 --> 00:36:55,378
And there's no mention
of any possible suspect
813
00:36:55,380 --> 00:36:57,714
In that old stuff, huh?
Like it's a teenager
814
00:36:57,716 --> 00:36:59,582
Or girls running away
from the scene or anything.
815
00:36:59,584 --> 00:37:02,118
Most of these are experienced
criminals, in my opinion,
816
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:03,253
That started these fires.
817
00:37:03,255 --> 00:37:04,854
These aren't
some 17-year-old kids
818
00:37:04,856 --> 00:37:07,590
That are gonna go and masturbate
and watch this fire, you know?
819
00:37:07,592 --> 00:37:09,125
Could we really be looking
820
00:37:09,127 --> 00:37:11,060
For a completely
different suspect in this case?
821
00:37:11,062 --> 00:37:12,396
The way this fire was set,
822
00:37:12,398 --> 00:37:14,464
To me this is
an experienced guy.
823
00:37:14,466 --> 00:37:16,199
But the other question
is why did they stop.
824
00:37:16,201 --> 00:37:18,001
Is he dead? Is he in jail?
825
00:37:18,003 --> 00:37:19,469
Did he get arrested
for something else?
826
00:37:19,471 --> 00:37:21,071
What are you thinking?
827
00:37:21,073 --> 00:37:23,206
I'm thinking
about that unknown guy.
828
00:37:23,208 --> 00:37:23,273
I know.
829
00:37:23,341 --> 00:37:38,254
Okay, here we are,
830
00:37:38,256 --> 00:37:41,090
Trying our hardest to look
critically at these people
831
00:37:41,092 --> 00:37:43,559
That have been suspected
for so long.
832
00:37:43,561 --> 00:37:45,962
The evidence
that we've uncovered
833
00:37:45,964 --> 00:37:48,431
Suggests that it was
a serial arsonist
834
00:37:48,433 --> 00:37:50,633
That was responsible
for the deaths
835
00:37:50,635 --> 00:37:53,736
Of hope and jacob
and her unborn son.
836
00:37:53,738 --> 00:37:56,739
Unfortunately,
we do not have enough evidence
837
00:37:56,741 --> 00:37:59,609
To prove
who that serial arsonist is,
838
00:37:59,611 --> 00:38:03,879
But we can prove the innocence
of our other two suspects.
839
00:38:03,881 --> 00:38:06,582
Why don't we start
with r.D. Dick?
840
00:38:06,584 --> 00:38:09,152
He acknowledged
the other fires that he set.
841
00:38:09,154 --> 00:38:12,056
Said it was always
he would light curtains,
842
00:38:12,058 --> 00:38:13,724
And he'd light 'em
with a lighter.
843
00:38:13,726 --> 00:38:18,329
I never used any kind of gas
or anything, ever.
844
00:38:18,331 --> 00:38:21,331
He was very straightforward
about what he did in the past.
845
00:38:21,333 --> 00:38:23,399
He seems to have turned
his life around.
846
00:38:23,401 --> 00:38:25,268
I think that all
says a lot, right?
847
00:38:25,270 --> 00:38:26,403
I don't think it's him.
848
00:38:26,405 --> 00:38:27,538
- Do you?
- I don't.
849
00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:28,604
- Do you?
- No.
850
00:38:28,606 --> 00:38:30,207
Okay.
851
00:38:30,209 --> 00:38:33,076
R.D. Dick has always
been cooperative,
852
00:38:33,078 --> 00:38:35,211
And he has always
been consistent
853
00:38:35,213 --> 00:38:37,513
In the telling of his story,
854
00:38:37,515 --> 00:38:40,417
Both to civilians
and to law enforcement.
855
00:38:40,419 --> 00:38:44,887
It is clear that r.D. Dick
is not involved with this fire.
856
00:38:44,889 --> 00:38:47,623
I think
we've resolved r.D. Dick.
857
00:38:47,625 --> 00:38:49,426
And then we go to greg brewster.
858
00:38:49,428 --> 00:38:51,361
Talk us through
what you're thinking.
859
00:38:51,363 --> 00:38:52,829
There's no motive.
There's no means.
860
00:38:58,370 --> 00:39:00,002
I knew that he loved hope.
861
00:39:00,004 --> 00:39:03,406
It always seemed
like a cohesive unit.
862
00:39:03,408 --> 00:39:05,842
Nobody's gonna convince me
that he spread this gasoline.
863
00:39:05,844 --> 00:39:09,712
He's just not that devious.
Greg had seconds to make a plan.
864
00:39:09,714 --> 00:39:13,883
I've seen cops in fires panic
and run and do dumb things.
865
00:39:13,885 --> 00:39:16,385
You're not thinking
like you and I are right now.
866
00:39:16,387 --> 00:39:17,688
And they make a decision,
867
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:20,923
And it turns out
to be fatal for three.
868
00:39:20,925 --> 00:39:22,859
Unfortunately,
that's just the way it is.
869
00:39:22,861 --> 00:39:25,261
But that doesn't make greg
the guy that did this.
870
00:39:25,263 --> 00:39:27,397
He made it out the window.
They didn't. It's tragic.
871
00:39:27,399 --> 00:39:28,731
But I don't think it's criminal.
872
00:39:28,733 --> 00:39:30,733
- I agree.
- We're all agreeing
873
00:39:30,735 --> 00:39:33,069
That we can once and for all
tell noblesville
874
00:39:33,071 --> 00:39:35,271
That he is cleared
from this murder.
875
00:39:35,273 --> 00:39:36,473
Right.
876
00:39:36,475 --> 00:39:38,942
I think sometimes
we get so caught up
877
00:39:38,944 --> 00:39:41,879
In trying to figure out
who committed a crime--
878
00:39:41,881 --> 00:39:43,881
Because you're trying so hard
879
00:39:43,883 --> 00:39:46,215
To tell everybody
you found out who did it--
880
00:39:46,217 --> 00:39:49,085
You forget that sometimes
it's also your job
881
00:39:49,087 --> 00:39:51,754
To clear out people, right?
882
00:39:51,756 --> 00:39:55,225
'cause you know what?
He's a victim, too.
883
00:39:55,227 --> 00:39:56,592
Right.
884
00:39:56,594 --> 00:39:58,161
I tried really hard
to think of a case
885
00:39:58,163 --> 00:39:59,495
That I've ever handled
886
00:39:59,497 --> 00:40:02,566
Where someone has been--
who survived--
887
00:40:02,568 --> 00:40:04,901
As victimized as greg brewster.
888
00:40:04,903 --> 00:40:07,437
He lost his whole life--
889
00:40:07,439 --> 00:40:10,439
His brand-new wife,
his 2-year-old son,
890
00:40:10,441 --> 00:40:15,444
His unborn son, his home,
his friends, his job.
891
00:40:15,446 --> 00:40:18,614
The man has been judged
and criticized and called guilty
892
00:40:18,616 --> 00:40:21,951
For something he never did,
and that's horrible.
893
00:40:28,027 --> 00:40:31,594
[voice breaking]
894
00:40:33,598 --> 00:40:38,168
[sniffling, sobbing]
895
00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:47,777
Woman:
♪ your thoughts, they stray ♪
896
00:40:49,547 --> 00:40:51,881
♪ and to know
it's always easier... ♪
897
00:40:51,883 --> 00:40:54,951
Are you excited
to talk to elaine?
898
00:40:54,953 --> 00:40:57,287
Well, I think just knowing
that it's not greg
899
00:40:57,289 --> 00:40:59,055
Will be a big relief.
900
00:41:00,091 --> 00:41:03,293
For 28 years,
elaine, hope's sister,
901
00:41:03,295 --> 00:41:05,295
Has had to live with the thought
902
00:41:05,297 --> 00:41:09,899
That someone that her family
loved as a fellow family member
903
00:41:09,901 --> 00:41:11,768
Could have been
the person responsible
904
00:41:11,770 --> 00:41:16,239
For taking away hope and jacob
and their unborn son's life.
905
00:41:16,241 --> 00:41:18,374
- Good morning, miss elaine.
- Good morning.
906
00:41:18,376 --> 00:41:20,910
And today we're looking forward
to being able to tell her
907
00:41:20,912 --> 00:41:24,146
That she does not have
to live with that anymore.
908
00:41:24,148 --> 00:41:27,650
Well, we spent all week
working on this.
909
00:41:27,652 --> 00:41:29,118
We've talked to experts
910
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,521
That we didn't
have access to before.
911
00:41:31,523 --> 00:41:33,322
What I want you to know most
912
00:41:33,324 --> 00:41:35,592
Is nobody's forgotten hope
or jacob.
913
00:41:35,594 --> 00:41:38,929
It's nice to know
the town still thinks about it.
914
00:41:38,931 --> 00:41:41,732
- Yeah.
- They--they genuinely do.
915
00:41:41,734 --> 00:41:44,401
I'm from a little town.
Fires don't happen.
916
00:41:44,403 --> 00:41:46,502
No. Not like this.
917
00:41:46,504 --> 00:41:48,337
No. And y'all had
an arsonist running around.
918
00:41:48,339 --> 00:41:49,606
So trying to figure out
919
00:41:49,608 --> 00:41:52,742
Who set those fires
28 years later, elaine...
920
00:41:52,744 --> 00:41:54,144
Yeah.
921
00:41:54,146 --> 00:41:56,412
I hope that it gives you
some relief to know
922
00:41:56,414 --> 00:41:59,215
That we don't believe
greg started that fire.
923
00:41:59,217 --> 00:42:01,551
[exhales] that's a big relief.
924
00:42:01,553 --> 00:42:03,419
- Siegler: Yeah.
- Big relief.
925
00:42:03,421 --> 00:42:05,555
He had nothing to do
with that fire.
926
00:42:05,557 --> 00:42:08,591
- That's a big relief in itself.
- Good.
927
00:42:10,228 --> 00:42:12,762
You know, greg--
I love greg to death.
928
00:42:12,764 --> 00:42:14,565
I never stopped loving greg.
929
00:42:14,567 --> 00:42:16,967
It's just always been
the unknown.
930
00:42:16,969 --> 00:42:20,036
- Haskett: Right.
- And that's cleared up today.
931
00:42:20,038 --> 00:42:23,105
Greg has been more like
a brother than a brother-in-law.
932
00:42:23,107 --> 00:42:29,045
So to know
he's innocent and free--
933
00:42:29,047 --> 00:42:33,583
He can go on with his life--
means more than anything to me.
934
00:42:33,585 --> 00:42:35,652
I just hope he has peace--
935
00:42:35,654 --> 00:42:38,788
Peace that he realizes
he's no longer a suspect.
936
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:40,657
Siegler: Yeah. Well,
he doesn't know that yet.
937
00:42:40,659 --> 00:42:42,191
Mike's trying to tell him.
938
00:42:42,193 --> 00:42:44,061
I'm hoping he comes to town
and talks to mike,
939
00:42:44,063 --> 00:42:45,861
And they sit down,
and then you can see him.
940
00:42:45,863 --> 00:42:49,465
You know, if he's willing,
I'd love to talk to him
941
00:42:49,467 --> 00:42:52,735
'cause I carried around
a lot of hurt.
942
00:42:52,737 --> 00:42:55,738
A lot of hurt, not knowing.
943
00:42:55,740 --> 00:42:58,007
You don't need
to worry anymore.
944
00:42:58,009 --> 00:43:00,344
- I'm not going to.
- Okay.
945
00:43:00,346 --> 00:43:02,579
It means to let it go.
946
00:43:08,019 --> 00:43:10,553
Thank you both so, so much.
947
00:43:10,555 --> 00:43:12,154
- Oh!
- I know.
948
00:43:12,156 --> 00:43:13,756
I know.
949
00:43:13,758 --> 00:43:15,758
Stay strong.
950
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,693
Siegler: The hope with this case
951
00:43:17,695 --> 00:43:20,764
Is that because we opened
all this up again,
952
00:43:20,766 --> 00:43:23,466
There is someone out there
953
00:43:23,468 --> 00:43:26,469
With some information
about these arsons,
954
00:43:26,471 --> 00:43:28,604
And that person
could come forward
955
00:43:28,606 --> 00:43:31,441
And tell law enforcement
what they know
956
00:43:31,443 --> 00:43:34,910
To possibly give the noblesville
police department
957
00:43:34,912 --> 00:43:37,913
And elaine and this entire town
958
00:43:37,915 --> 00:43:54,064
The answers they have been
waiting for for 28 years.