1
00:00:14,114 --> 00:00:16,816
The men's bathroom.
2
00:00:20,153 --> 00:00:23,056
Body was lying face down,
3
00:00:24,824 --> 00:00:30,964
Cord that was tied around
her throat, extended up, and
4
00:00:30,997 --> 00:00:33,700
then was secured on the brace.
5
00:00:33,733 --> 00:00:36,836
Inside the stall, a chair.
6
00:00:36,870 --> 00:00:40,807
Quite a bit of blood,
with the source of the blood
7
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,378
being determined at two
small holes in the throat.
8
00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:53,019
[choir singing]
9
00:00:53,053 --> 00:00:59,392
***
10
00:01:09,903 --> 00:01:11,805
You ever heard of Creve Coeur?
11
00:01:11,838 --> 00:01:13,707
No. I know
it's near St. Louis.
12
00:01:13,740 --> 00:01:16,743
My husband Sam went to
Catholic medical school here,
13
00:01:16,776 --> 00:01:19,546
and it used to be
a great, safe place to be.
14
00:01:19,579 --> 00:01:21,614
-It's a beautiful neighborhood.
-It is.
15
00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:24,918
This case is 32 years old.
16
00:01:24,951 --> 00:01:27,087
-Unbelievable.
-It happened in 1990
17
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,189
at a seminary school.
18
00:01:29,222 --> 00:01:31,524
There are victims,
and then there are victims,
19
00:01:31,558 --> 00:01:32,625
and this is a victim.
20
00:01:32,659 --> 00:01:34,127
She came to America
21
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:35,895
to further her career
in education
22
00:01:35,929 --> 00:01:37,097
and look what happens.
23
00:01:37,130 --> 00:01:40,000
Elizabeth Mackintosh was
a 50-year-old
24
00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:41,901
Scottish immigrant
and a student
25
00:01:41,935 --> 00:01:45,105
at the Covenant Theological
Presbyterian Seminary,
26
00:01:45,138 --> 00:01:47,741
where she also worked
cleaning the chapel.
27
00:01:47,774 --> 00:01:51,711
On the early morning
of March 26, 1990,
28
00:01:51,745 --> 00:01:54,614
that's what she was doing
when she was brutally attacked,
29
00:01:54,647 --> 00:01:57,117
beaten,
hung in the men's restroom,
30
00:01:57,150 --> 00:01:58,885
and stabbed to death.
31
00:01:58,918 --> 00:02:00,420
That is a brutal crime scene.
32
00:02:00,453 --> 00:02:02,622
I mean, that guy
spent some time with her.
33
00:02:02,655 --> 00:02:05,258
Brings a chair
into the men's stall,
34
00:02:05,291 --> 00:02:07,327
then he's got that loop
wrapped around her neck.
35
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:08,528
I mean, this is
like Hannibal Lecter.
36
00:02:08,561 --> 00:02:10,063
-Mm.
-I hate to say it,
37
00:02:10,063 --> 00:02:11,698
but they've got a couple
of venomous snakes
38
00:02:11,731 --> 00:02:13,566
right within
that program itself there.
39
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,635
Even one witness
says in the file,
40
00:02:15,669 --> 00:02:17,370
seminary theology school
41
00:02:17,404 --> 00:02:18,738
does tend to attract people
42
00:02:18,772 --> 00:02:20,607
that have lots of issues
43
00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:23,076
or are trying to work out
themselves psychologically.
44
00:02:23,076 --> 00:02:25,645
I think you're going to find out
some ugly, dark secrets here.
45
00:02:25,679 --> 00:02:29,282
"Creve coeur" means
"broken heart" in French,
46
00:02:29,315 --> 00:02:30,917
and in Elizabeth's case,
47
00:02:30,950 --> 00:02:33,186
that seems
tragically appropriate.
48
00:02:33,219 --> 00:02:36,089
Her family and
her community deserve
49
00:02:36,122 --> 00:02:38,458
to have Elizabeth's killer
off the streets.
50
00:02:38,491 --> 00:02:41,494
There's a saying
that God may save their soul,
51
00:02:41,528 --> 00:02:43,563
and God might save
this killer's soul,
52
00:02:43,596 --> 00:02:45,498
but we can put them
behind bars until then.
53
00:02:45,532 --> 00:02:47,133
God's on our side, too,
this week, I'll tell you that.
54
00:02:47,167 --> 00:02:48,435
Yes, I like that.
55
00:02:48,468 --> 00:02:55,108
***
56
00:02:55,141 --> 00:02:56,343
Hi. How are you?
57
00:02:56,376 --> 00:02:57,277
-Chief, Steve Spingola.
-Jeff Hartman.
58
00:02:57,310 --> 00:02:58,345
Kelly. Nice to meet you, sir.
59
00:02:58,378 --> 00:03:00,880
[overlapping introductions]
60
00:03:00,914 --> 00:03:03,383
Well, Chief,
we read your file, and
61
00:03:03,416 --> 00:03:05,952
-it's a hard case.
-It is, yeah.
62
00:03:06,052 --> 00:03:09,289
I'm always trying to keep
a positive attitude that
63
00:03:09,322 --> 00:03:12,459
eventually we'll find justice
for Elizabeth and her family.
64
00:03:12,492 --> 00:03:14,194
We don't get a lot
of victims like her, huh?
65
00:03:14,227 --> 00:03:15,462
-Yeah.
-All right.
66
00:03:15,495 --> 00:03:17,163
-Thank you, sir. We will.
-Keep me updated. Thanks.
67
00:03:17,197 --> 00:03:19,432
It's a 32-year-old case, so
68
00:03:19,466 --> 00:03:21,334
if we do have witnesses
that remember things,
69
00:03:21,368 --> 00:03:23,169
it's coming to
the last ditch effort
70
00:03:23,203 --> 00:03:25,071
for us to try
to solve this case.
71
00:03:25,071 --> 00:03:26,573
So you were saying
you were going to bring in
72
00:03:26,606 --> 00:03:28,208
-some other guys, too, huh?
-Yes, ma'am.
73
00:03:28,241 --> 00:03:30,076
I have a couple
retired captains
74
00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:32,078
that actually worked
on this case 32 years ago.
75
00:03:32,078 --> 00:03:33,480
Great, great. Okay.
76
00:03:33,513 --> 00:03:34,914
It's going to be difficult.
77
00:03:34,948 --> 00:03:37,083
We don't have any
hard physical evidence.
78
00:03:37,083 --> 00:03:39,586
We don't have eyewitnesses,
we don't have any forensics.
79
00:03:39,619 --> 00:03:40,720
-Hi, fellas.
-Hello.
80
00:03:40,754 --> 00:03:42,322
Captain Hodak,
this is Kelly and Steve.
81
00:03:42,355 --> 00:03:43,556
-How are you?
-Okay.
82
00:03:43,590 --> 00:03:45,225
-Nice to meet you.
-You, too. Thank you.
83
00:03:45,258 --> 00:03:46,393
So excited to see y'all.
84
00:03:46,426 --> 00:03:47,560
It's going to be based on
85
00:03:47,594 --> 00:03:48,795
circumstantial evidence
86
00:03:48,828 --> 00:03:50,296
and so,
just having somebody
87
00:03:50,330 --> 00:03:52,465
with Kelly and--
and Steve's experience--
88
00:03:52,499 --> 00:03:55,802
specifically Kelly's--working
with cold case homicides,
89
00:03:55,835 --> 00:03:57,003
we're really excited that they
90
00:03:57,103 --> 00:03:58,872
can help us out
with this investigation.
91
00:03:58,905 --> 00:04:00,206
Let's start off with putting
92
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,375
Elizabeth's pictures up here.
93
00:04:02,409 --> 00:04:04,711
Elizabeth Mackintosh
was 50 years old.
94
00:04:04,744 --> 00:04:06,880
She's of Scottish descent.
95
00:04:06,913 --> 00:04:09,349
Her father was
a very high profile
96
00:04:09,382 --> 00:04:12,185
Presbyterian clergy person
in the United Kingdom.
97
00:04:12,218 --> 00:04:16,322
This homicide made big
headlines over there, too.
98
00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:19,926
Elizabeth was very friendly,
well spoken, opinionated.
99
00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:21,494
She was one
not to shy away
100
00:04:21,528 --> 00:04:23,530
from confrontation,
it sounded like.
101
00:04:23,563 --> 00:04:25,532
Never been married, no kids,
102
00:04:25,565 --> 00:04:27,934
no love interest
going on at all.
103
00:04:27,967 --> 00:04:29,769
So here's Elizabeth as a nurse.
104
00:04:29,803 --> 00:04:31,938
That is Elizabeth
on the bottom right.
105
00:04:31,971 --> 00:04:35,775
After a career in nursing
for 11 1/2 years in England,
106
00:04:35,809 --> 00:04:37,444
she had come to the States
107
00:04:37,477 --> 00:04:40,146
to be a student at the
Covenant Theological Seminary.
108
00:04:40,180 --> 00:04:42,949
She had intentions to
get a degree in counseling
109
00:04:42,982 --> 00:04:46,186
and possibly
get her seminary license.
110
00:04:46,219 --> 00:04:48,955
Elizabeth went to school
there, studying,
111
00:04:48,988 --> 00:04:50,857
but she also had a job.
112
00:04:50,890 --> 00:04:52,592
She helped
to clean up the chapel.
113
00:04:52,625 --> 00:04:55,962
She would usually wake up
at 4:00 in the morning
114
00:04:55,995 --> 00:04:57,897
and then start
her cleaning duties
115
00:04:57,931 --> 00:05:01,401
-anywhere between 4:25, 4:30.
-Okay.
116
00:05:01,434 --> 00:05:05,772
March 26, 1990,
at about 7:20 in the morning,
117
00:05:05,805 --> 00:05:08,241
Creve Coeur police officers
responded to the report
118
00:05:08,274 --> 00:05:11,911
of a suicide in the men's
restroom at the Rayburn Chapel.
119
00:05:14,047 --> 00:05:16,249
Originally it was
believed to be a hanging
120
00:05:16,282 --> 00:05:19,085
'cause she had a ligature
around her neck.
121
00:05:19,119 --> 00:05:20,787
But there was
blood all over the floor,
122
00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:22,922
so the officers
pretty quickly determined
123
00:05:22,956 --> 00:05:24,657
that it wasn't a suicide.
124
00:05:24,691 --> 00:05:27,560
She had two puncture wounds
that were in her neck
125
00:05:27,594 --> 00:05:29,496
and defensive wounds
to her hands,
126
00:05:29,529 --> 00:05:31,798
contusions and bruises
all over her body.
127
00:05:31,831 --> 00:05:34,200
There was a struggle
that originally took place
128
00:05:34,234 --> 00:05:36,670
in an adjacent room
to the bathroom.
129
00:05:36,703 --> 00:05:39,706
There was hair on the floor,
backing of an earring.
130
00:05:39,739 --> 00:05:42,442
The cord that
was around her neck had
131
00:05:42,475 --> 00:05:45,378
been cut from a VCR
from that room.
132
00:05:45,412 --> 00:05:47,347
We believe that she was
133
00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:49,582
possibly drug from that room,
134
00:05:49,616 --> 00:05:51,084
brought into the bathroom.
135
00:05:51,084 --> 00:05:54,254
The cord was tied on a bracket
136
00:05:54,287 --> 00:05:56,089
and then it was
placed around her neck.
137
00:05:56,122 --> 00:05:58,758
She tried to get up
and get out and then
138
00:05:58,792 --> 00:06:03,029
she pushed through the door,
fell onto the floor.
139
00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:06,299
The ligature
came tight around her neck
140
00:06:06,332 --> 00:06:08,368
and the suspect stabbed her
in the neck.
141
00:06:08,401 --> 00:06:09,569
This woman's
going through hell.
142
00:06:09,602 --> 00:06:12,038
This is one
of the most savage and
143
00:06:12,072 --> 00:06:15,475
messy and painful homicides
I've ever heard of.
144
00:06:15,508 --> 00:06:19,512
For such a sweet lady
who devoted her life to God,
145
00:06:19,546 --> 00:06:23,316
her last minutes
on this earth were hell.
146
00:06:23,350 --> 00:06:25,051
No signs of
a sexual assault.
147
00:06:25,051 --> 00:06:27,887
No robbery or burglary,
because nothing was missing.
148
00:06:27,921 --> 00:06:29,689
Right. This was
a heat-of-passion thing.
149
00:06:29,723 --> 00:06:31,524
It was not something
that was premeditated.
150
00:06:31,558 --> 00:06:34,661
My opinion was
that the perpetrator tried
151
00:06:34,694 --> 00:06:36,429
to make it look like
it was going to be a suicide.
152
00:06:36,463 --> 00:06:38,598
The cord,
the jeans, and the shirt,
153
00:06:38,631 --> 00:06:40,367
we've sent off to DNA tests
154
00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,402
-hoping for a miracle, right?
-Right.
155
00:06:42,435 --> 00:06:44,571
-Yes, ma'am.
-Elizabeth was last seen alive
156
00:06:44,604 --> 00:06:48,375
by a student leaving
the chapel at about 4:50 a.m.
157
00:06:48,408 --> 00:06:50,710
The next students
arrived at 6:20 a.m.
158
00:06:50,744 --> 00:06:52,879
and did not hear any signs
of a struggle.
159
00:06:52,912 --> 00:06:55,348
With the extreme violence
of Elizabeth's murder,
160
00:06:55,382 --> 00:06:56,649
it seems whoever killed her
161
00:06:56,683 --> 00:06:58,918
must have committed that crime
in that window,
162
00:06:58,952 --> 00:07:00,387
and only a handful of people
163
00:07:00,420 --> 00:07:02,022
would have known
she would have been there.
164
00:07:02,055 --> 00:07:05,025
Okay, so this
is Michael Johnson.
165
00:07:05,058 --> 00:07:07,861
Michael Johnson is another
seminary student,
166
00:07:07,894 --> 00:07:11,031
and he was actually Elizabeth
Mackintosh's direct supervisor.
167
00:07:11,031 --> 00:07:13,099
And they didn't get
along very well, right?
168
00:07:13,133 --> 00:07:15,201
Elizabeth
and Michael Johnson
169
00:07:15,235 --> 00:07:17,904
had disagreements
over cleaning supplies.
170
00:07:17,937 --> 00:07:21,174
Elizabeth requested supplies
through Michael.
171
00:07:21,207 --> 00:07:22,842
He did not get those supplies,
172
00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:25,945
so she went over his head
and spoke to his boss.
173
00:07:26,046 --> 00:07:28,248
We believe this upset him,
and he was probably
174
00:07:28,281 --> 00:07:29,783
trying to confront her
175
00:07:29,816 --> 00:07:31,284
that particular Monday
morning.
176
00:07:31,317 --> 00:07:33,386
They asked him if
he had been in the chapel,
177
00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:34,621
and he said he was.
178
00:07:34,654 --> 00:07:36,456
He said he was looking
for Elizabeth.
179
00:07:36,489 --> 00:07:38,591
He said, "I didn't
look in the men's bathroom.
180
00:07:38,625 --> 00:07:41,461
"Elizabeth is sensitive
about people walking in on her
181
00:07:41,494 --> 00:07:43,430
while she's cleaning
the men's bathroom."
182
00:07:43,463 --> 00:07:45,799
Michael told police
he went looking for Elizabeth
183
00:07:45,832 --> 00:07:47,167
around 7:10 a.m.
184
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,302
He didn't find her and left,
185
00:07:49,336 --> 00:07:51,805
which is after the time
we believe she was killed.
186
00:07:51,838 --> 00:07:53,073
But he told another witness
187
00:07:53,106 --> 00:07:54,641
he had an appointment
to meet Elizabeth
188
00:07:54,674 --> 00:07:57,243
early in the morning
at about 6:30 a.m.
189
00:07:57,277 --> 00:07:59,279
So why the discrepancy
in his story?
190
00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:01,214
He's had a temper all his life.
191
00:08:01,247 --> 00:08:03,583
He almost broke
somebody's nose one time.
192
00:08:03,616 --> 00:08:06,086
Abusive to the wife
and the kids?
193
00:08:06,119 --> 00:08:08,355
Yeah. He would fly off
the handle,
194
00:08:08,388 --> 00:08:11,291
and the kids would run out
and stay with a neighbor.
195
00:08:11,324 --> 00:08:14,361
Okay, everybody pull out
their notes for Eugene Smith.
196
00:08:14,394 --> 00:08:16,129
Eugene Smith
is not still alive?
197
00:08:16,162 --> 00:08:17,197
-Correct.
-He is dead, yes.
198
00:08:17,230 --> 00:08:19,666
Okay.
How did Mr. Eugene Smith
199
00:08:19,699 --> 00:08:21,067
first get on y'all's radar?
200
00:08:21,101 --> 00:08:23,937
We started checking students
201
00:08:24,037 --> 00:08:25,672
-that lived in the dormitory...
-Correct.
202
00:08:25,705 --> 00:08:27,507
...and came up with him
because he had a record.
203
00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:32,512
He was arrested for attempted
rape with a knife in 1987.
204
00:08:32,545 --> 00:08:33,680
And was that a conviction
or an arrest?
205
00:08:33,713 --> 00:08:36,049
No, he was acquitted at trial.
206
00:08:36,049 --> 00:08:40,320
Then he was a suspect in
a second rape in 1987 again.
207
00:08:40,353 --> 00:08:42,822
And this guy
is living in the--
208
00:08:42,856 --> 00:08:44,057
Living in the dorms.
209
00:08:44,057 --> 00:08:46,059
There were people
in the dorms that were
210
00:08:46,059 --> 00:08:48,061
just kind of there,
kind of flopping,
211
00:08:48,094 --> 00:08:51,331
and it was a free ride
from the seminary.
212
00:08:51,364 --> 00:08:54,200
After he left the seminary,
he was arrested and convicted
213
00:08:54,234 --> 00:08:56,069
of armed robbery with a knife.
214
00:08:56,102 --> 00:08:58,171
At least two,
maybe even three
215
00:08:58,204 --> 00:09:01,007
violent felony offenses
committed with a knife.
216
00:09:01,041 --> 00:09:02,175
-Mm-hmm.
-Lovely.
217
00:09:03,176 --> 00:09:05,679
So next up,
you want to do George Johnston.
218
00:09:05,712 --> 00:09:09,015
-He was a librarian on campus.
-Looks like a librarian.
219
00:09:09,015 --> 00:09:12,118
Employed at
the seminary since 1978.
220
00:09:12,152 --> 00:09:15,455
And he's up on our board
how and why?
221
00:09:15,488 --> 00:09:17,791
The seminary fired him
right after the murder.
222
00:09:17,824 --> 00:09:19,225
They went back and
they did a security audit.
223
00:09:19,259 --> 00:09:22,562
They found that incident
in 1971.
224
00:09:22,595 --> 00:09:26,900
So the security guard walks
into some bathroom--St. John's
225
00:09:26,933 --> 00:09:28,201
-Mercy Hospital.
-This is that hospital thing?
226
00:09:28,234 --> 00:09:29,803
Right across the street
from the seminary.
227
00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:31,571
So he was dressed as a woman,
228
00:09:31,604 --> 00:09:33,373
and he had some type of
a metal car part...
229
00:09:33,406 --> 00:09:36,843
In order to assault a woman
and fondle her "gentitals."
230
00:09:36,876 --> 00:09:38,745
-Knock a woman out...
-In a bathroom
231
00:09:38,778 --> 00:09:41,481
In a bathroom,
and fondle their vagina.
232
00:09:42,449 --> 00:09:45,051
So he was stopped
before committing the crime.
233
00:09:45,085 --> 00:09:47,887
-Right.
-Investigators found no evidence
234
00:09:47,921 --> 00:09:49,622
of a sexual assault,
235
00:09:49,656 --> 00:09:52,525
but Elizabeth had over
30 different bruises
236
00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,461
and abrasions
all over her body.
237
00:09:54,494 --> 00:09:57,530
Is it possible
that she fought back so hard
238
00:09:57,564 --> 00:10:01,067
that a sexual predator
just gave up and killed her?
239
00:10:01,101 --> 00:10:03,870
All right.
Next up, David Winecoff.
240
00:10:03,903 --> 00:10:06,106
He was the victim's pastor.
241
00:10:06,139 --> 00:10:08,808
Yeah, he had a church
about 10 miles away.
242
00:10:08,842 --> 00:10:11,177
So the political ideology
at the seminary
243
00:10:11,211 --> 00:10:12,946
at this time was in turmoil.
244
00:10:12,979 --> 00:10:17,183
There was some differences
in their--in their sect beliefs.
245
00:10:17,217 --> 00:10:18,885
Elizabeth had actually
got accepted
246
00:10:18,918 --> 00:10:21,221
to a more
liberal school in Florida,
247
00:10:21,254 --> 00:10:24,424
and Winecoff was believed to
be the more conservative side
248
00:10:24,457 --> 00:10:26,860
and there was a lot of
contention
249
00:10:26,893 --> 00:10:30,230
there at the seminary about
those religious differences.
250
00:10:30,263 --> 00:10:31,464
The night before her death,
251
00:10:31,498 --> 00:10:33,299
she had
attended Sunday services.
252
00:10:33,333 --> 00:10:35,568
So it was some concern
when she showed him
253
00:10:35,602 --> 00:10:37,737
that acceptance letter,
if they were actually
254
00:10:37,771 --> 00:10:39,639
arguing or if
she was flaunting this letter
255
00:10:39,673 --> 00:10:42,676
as a way to show people
she was happy to be leaving.
256
00:10:42,709 --> 00:10:44,077
'Cause that would
be the genesis
257
00:10:44,110 --> 00:10:45,645
of why he would be mad enough
to want to kill her.
258
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,313
-Correct.
-His fingerprint's found
259
00:10:47,347 --> 00:10:48,948
-on that letter in the stall.
-Correct.
260
00:10:48,982 --> 00:10:53,753
Elizabeth was seen chatting with
David Winecoff on Sunday night,
261
00:10:53,787 --> 00:10:56,790
which could explain
his fingerprints on that.
262
00:10:56,823 --> 00:10:59,526
But that wasn't
the only reason he's a suspect.
263
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,361
He's deceased why?
264
00:11:01,394 --> 00:11:03,530
-Fell off a mountain.
-A climbing accident.
265
00:11:03,563 --> 00:11:05,365
His rope failed
or the knot failed
266
00:11:05,398 --> 00:11:07,067
that he had tied,
and then he fell.
267
00:11:07,067 --> 00:11:08,668
That was in '93.
268
00:11:08,702 --> 00:11:10,437
They thought
he'd committed suicide
269
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:13,373
because he was feeling guilty
over being a murderer.
270
00:11:13,406 --> 00:11:17,644
We have Elizabeth's boss,
a violent criminal,
271
00:11:17,677 --> 00:11:19,446
a wannabe predator,
272
00:11:19,479 --> 00:11:22,482
and a man with his prints
at the scene.
273
00:11:22,515 --> 00:11:25,185
But after 30 years,
our biggest challenge might be
274
00:11:25,218 --> 00:11:27,787
finding witnesses
who are still around
275
00:11:27,821 --> 00:11:30,090
and have a good memory
from that day.
276
00:11:30,123 --> 00:11:33,093
[choir music resumes]
277
00:11:33,126 --> 00:11:39,632
***
278
00:11:39,666 --> 00:11:40,934
We're going to go see
279
00:11:40,967 --> 00:11:42,602
Elizabeth's
younger sister Helen.
280
00:11:42,635 --> 00:11:45,839
Yes. She's just as nice
as can be and helpful
281
00:11:45,872 --> 00:11:48,408
and even adds more reason
why we want
282
00:11:48,441 --> 00:11:50,343
to get her some help
and resolution for this.
283
00:11:50,377 --> 00:11:53,680
Sadly, with Elizabeth's
case being this old,
284
00:11:53,713 --> 00:11:56,683
her poor parents and
her brother passed away
285
00:11:56,716 --> 00:12:00,353
never being able to get
any kind of answers or justice.
286
00:12:00,387 --> 00:12:01,821
-Hi.
-Hello.
287
00:12:01,855 --> 00:12:03,590
-Is it Helen? I'm Doug.
-I'm Helen, yes.
288
00:12:03,623 --> 00:12:06,159
Today we're meeting with
her younger sister Helen,
289
00:12:06,192 --> 00:12:09,763
who named one of her own
daughters after Elizabeth.
290
00:12:09,796 --> 00:12:11,664
So what was she like
as a little girl?
291
00:12:11,698 --> 00:12:13,700
She was a very loving sister
292
00:12:13,733 --> 00:12:15,235
to me, though,
when I was little.
293
00:12:15,268 --> 00:12:16,903
And then as the years went by
294
00:12:16,936 --> 00:12:18,571
and Forrest and I got married,
295
00:12:18,605 --> 00:12:20,306
and as my children were born,
296
00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:23,843
she celebrated that and came,
and they loved it.
297
00:12:23,877 --> 00:12:25,078
She was the fun aunt,
298
00:12:25,078 --> 00:12:29,849
so she was
very bright and creative.
299
00:12:29,883 --> 00:12:32,686
As a very young nurse
in her early 20s,
300
00:12:32,719 --> 00:12:35,822
she went to Peru and
went up into the Andes
301
00:12:35,855 --> 00:12:38,692
to a mining community
and worked there as a nurse.
302
00:12:38,725 --> 00:12:41,761
And, Helen,
when this happened in 1990,
303
00:12:41,795 --> 00:12:43,830
how did all this affect
your mom and dad?
304
00:12:43,863 --> 00:12:47,200
Oh, well, it was unspeakable.
305
00:12:47,233 --> 00:12:50,270
My parents,
they leaned on their faith.
306
00:12:50,303 --> 00:12:51,571
They leaned on each other,
307
00:12:51,604 --> 00:12:54,808
and the family in Scotland
was very supportive.
308
00:12:54,841 --> 00:12:56,876
But of course, it was a...
309
00:12:56,910 --> 00:12:59,112
it was an unspeakable blow
to them.
310
00:12:59,112 --> 00:13:03,583
It was an unnatural,
horrible death.
311
00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:05,785
And so, um...
312
00:13:05,819 --> 00:13:11,324
***
313
00:13:11,358 --> 00:13:15,328
It caused the people who loved
her a great deal of pain.
314
00:13:19,566 --> 00:13:24,070
My dear parents,
their suffering was intense,
315
00:13:24,104 --> 00:13:27,140
and they leant
on their faith greatly,
316
00:13:28,475 --> 00:13:31,111
and the promise...
317
00:13:31,144 --> 00:13:34,647
that in all things,
God was with them,
318
00:13:34,681 --> 00:13:36,383
and would have been
with Elizabeth,
319
00:13:36,416 --> 00:13:37,650
and Elizabeth
would have known that.
320
00:13:37,684 --> 00:13:39,819
Even in the midst
of the horror,
321
00:13:39,853 --> 00:13:41,287
she would have had that faith.
322
00:13:41,321 --> 00:13:43,156
She was of such strong faith.
323
00:13:44,691 --> 00:13:47,594
But still,
it's incredibly unfair.
324
00:13:47,627 --> 00:13:51,097
She was a wonderful,
wonderful person
325
00:13:51,131 --> 00:13:52,532
-and we miss her terribly.
326
00:13:52,565 --> 00:13:54,768
Well, if it's okay with y'all,
we're going to get started
327
00:13:54,801 --> 00:13:56,670
trying to talk
to all these people
328
00:13:56,703 --> 00:13:57,837
-and see how far we can get.
-Please.
329
00:13:57,871 --> 00:14:00,040
-Pray for us, okay?
-Yes.
330
00:14:07,814 --> 00:14:11,084
[choir singing]
331
00:14:11,117 --> 00:14:17,057
***
332
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,362
-Good to see you again, man.
-[chuckles]
333
00:14:22,395 --> 00:14:23,296
Did y'all meet Chris?
334
00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:25,098
-We sure did.
-Yep, yep.
335
00:14:25,131 --> 00:14:27,734
Today we've flown in
our reconstruction expert
336
00:14:27,767 --> 00:14:29,436
to see if he can try
and help us
337
00:14:29,469 --> 00:14:32,772
re-examine and maybe
reenact Elizabeth's murder.
338
00:14:32,806 --> 00:14:36,142
The seminary has granted us
access to the chapel
339
00:14:36,176 --> 00:14:38,445
and to the rooms
where her murder happened.
340
00:14:39,412 --> 00:14:41,915
This is the original
chapel to the campus.
341
00:14:41,948 --> 00:14:44,117
So we're really talking about,
then, this level,
342
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:46,086
which is the ground level
and then the basement level
343
00:14:46,086 --> 00:14:47,253
-where everything happens.
-Right, right.
344
00:14:47,287 --> 00:14:48,555
-Okay.
-All right.
345
00:14:48,588 --> 00:14:50,290
We can head on downstairs.
346
00:14:50,323 --> 00:14:52,659
Being here
in this house of God,
347
00:14:52,692 --> 00:14:55,328
in this place
of worship and faith,
348
00:14:55,362 --> 00:14:57,597
it's hard to imagine someone
349
00:14:57,630 --> 00:15:00,533
from this community
committing this crime.
350
00:15:00,567 --> 00:15:03,470
A chapel is the last place
where you would think
351
00:15:03,503 --> 00:15:05,805
a savage murder like
this could ever happen.
352
00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:08,141
So this is lecture room three,
353
00:15:08,174 --> 00:15:10,343
and we think
that she was assaulted in here.
354
00:15:10,377 --> 00:15:12,545
Oh, it's way bigger
than I thought.
355
00:15:12,579 --> 00:15:15,048
Maybe an argument started
in this particular room
356
00:15:15,048 --> 00:15:17,384
and then carried over
into the men's bathroom.
357
00:15:17,417 --> 00:15:20,387
We had signs of a struggle.
Elizabeth's earring,
358
00:15:20,420 --> 00:15:22,555
some clumps of her hair
that were pulled out.
359
00:15:22,589 --> 00:15:24,624
The audio/visual cart
was in here,
360
00:15:24,657 --> 00:15:27,527
so that was what happened--
The electrical cord.
361
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,963
The evidence suggests that
Elizabeth was cleaning this room
362
00:15:30,063 --> 00:15:31,631
when she was confronted.
363
00:15:31,664 --> 00:15:32,966
And while we don't know
if Elizabeth
364
00:15:33,066 --> 00:15:34,267
and her attacker initially got
365
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:36,936
into a verbal confrontation,
that seems likely.
366
00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:40,507
And so, you and I are talking.
I'm going to come towards you.
367
00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:42,375
If I hit you as hard as I can,
368
00:15:42,409 --> 00:15:45,078
I think I can knock you out,
down to the ground.
369
00:15:45,078 --> 00:15:47,113
Everybody feels like she's
down on the ground at this time.
370
00:15:47,147 --> 00:15:49,149
-Yeah.
-She's downdown.
371
00:15:49,182 --> 00:15:50,483
Laying down.
She's not sitting up.
372
00:15:50,517 --> 00:15:52,085
-No.
-At this point,
373
00:15:52,085 --> 00:15:54,654
it seems likely that Elizabeth
was incapacitated
374
00:15:54,688 --> 00:15:56,856
and possibly unconscious.
375
00:15:56,890 --> 00:15:58,191
And while we don't know
how the struggle
376
00:15:58,224 --> 00:15:59,693
actually played out,
377
00:15:59,726 --> 00:16:01,161
this is likely when
the assailant
378
00:16:01,194 --> 00:16:02,495
grabbed her by the hair
and forced her
379
00:16:02,529 --> 00:16:05,198
into the men's restroom
and cut off the VCR cord
380
00:16:05,231 --> 00:16:06,499
to use as a ligature.
381
00:16:06,533 --> 00:16:08,568
Now I grab you by your hair
382
00:16:08,601 --> 00:16:11,338
and I lead you from here
into the bathroom
383
00:16:11,371 --> 00:16:13,273
because the hair is
pulled out of her head, right?
384
00:16:13,306 --> 00:16:14,874
I agree.
He's got her by the hair.
385
00:16:14,908 --> 00:16:17,677
He's dragging her around,
grabbing the scissors and stuff
386
00:16:17,711 --> 00:16:19,045
so she doesn't get out of here,
because he's not going
387
00:16:19,079 --> 00:16:20,680
to leave her laying here.
388
00:16:20,714 --> 00:16:21,881
So we're going to go in
the bathroom,
389
00:16:21,915 --> 00:16:23,516
Okay, so I'm gonna
move you this way.
390
00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:25,852
And at this point,
I push you into the stall.
391
00:16:25,885 --> 00:16:28,321
At some point,
she's going to fight back some,
392
00:16:28,355 --> 00:16:30,156
because this is where
we see defensive wounds.
393
00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:32,392
Another struggle in the stall
could help explain
394
00:16:32,425 --> 00:16:35,495
why Elizabeth had over
30 wounds to her head and body,
395
00:16:35,528 --> 00:16:37,831
as Elizabeth was
struggling for her life.
396
00:16:37,864 --> 00:16:40,834
Now, I slam you
so hard down
397
00:16:40,867 --> 00:16:43,937
that your head
knocks that off of that.
398
00:16:43,970 --> 00:16:45,605
And now you fall to the ground.
399
00:16:45,638 --> 00:16:48,074
If you knocked that toilet
dispenser off there,
400
00:16:48,074 --> 00:16:50,777
I think you're out
for several minutes, right?
401
00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:52,345
-It would be a hard hit.
-Because--oh, my gosh.
402
00:16:52,379 --> 00:16:54,247
-Got that big horizontal bruise.
-Totally.
403
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,182
And then while you're
down on the ground,
404
00:16:56,216 --> 00:16:57,717
I go and get the chair.
405
00:16:57,751 --> 00:16:59,719
Now I'm gonna have to
sit you up in the chair.
406
00:16:59,753 --> 00:17:00,787
Okay.
407
00:17:00,820 --> 00:17:02,255
And now, at this point,
408
00:17:02,288 --> 00:17:04,157
I'm kind of pulling this over.
409
00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:06,426
It's unclear if
the killer's true intent was
410
00:17:06,459 --> 00:17:09,329
to try to stage
this death as a suicide,
411
00:17:09,362 --> 00:17:11,297
but he was clearly trying
to strangle her to death.
412
00:17:11,331 --> 00:17:13,066
He may have been content
413
00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:15,568
to strangle her with that,
but I think it wasn't working.
414
00:17:15,602 --> 00:17:17,504
And she doesn't die fast.
415
00:17:17,537 --> 00:17:19,105
Doesn't die,
so he comes back in.
416
00:17:19,139 --> 00:17:21,474
So the scissors
were used to stab her.
417
00:17:21,508 --> 00:17:23,643
The killer possibly
grabbed a knife
418
00:17:23,677 --> 00:17:26,046
or other sharp instrument
from the classroom
419
00:17:26,046 --> 00:17:28,882
or still had it in his hand
from cutting the cord.
420
00:17:28,915 --> 00:17:30,550
But at this point,
he realized he would have to
421
00:17:30,583 --> 00:17:32,152
stab Elizabeth to kill her.
422
00:17:32,185 --> 00:17:36,523
And now I stab you twice.
I just go once up,
423
00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:40,460
And then once down,
424
00:17:40,493 --> 00:17:42,162
And then I'm going
to get out of the way,
425
00:17:42,195 --> 00:17:45,098
because as soon as I stab her,
I'm just going to back out.
426
00:17:45,131 --> 00:17:47,467
Where are the killer's
footprints in blood, too?
427
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:49,669
She's not bleeding,
not until he stabs her
428
00:17:49,703 --> 00:17:51,071
in the neck
and then backs out.
429
00:17:51,104 --> 00:17:52,839
How does she get forward, then?
'Cause when she's found,
430
00:17:52,872 --> 00:17:53,940
she's forward like this.
431
00:17:53,973 --> 00:17:55,175
Because when she falls off,
432
00:17:55,208 --> 00:17:56,843
she's two inches
off the ground.
433
00:17:56,876 --> 00:17:58,244
You mean the rope doesn't
let her hit the ground?
434
00:17:58,278 --> 00:17:59,846
-MEN: Right. Yeah.
-It catches her?
435
00:17:59,879 --> 00:18:01,014
That's why
she strangles to death?
436
00:18:01,014 --> 00:18:01,881
That's why she strangles
to death.
437
00:18:01,915 --> 00:18:03,049
So she's kind of like...
438
00:18:03,083 --> 00:18:05,185
Keep going.
Like right there.
439
00:18:05,218 --> 00:18:07,487
So that's why the cause
of death is strangulation.
440
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:08,888
Mm-hmm.
441
00:18:08,922 --> 00:18:12,325
My God, the torture
this poor woman endured.
442
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,029
And can you even imagine
how helpless she felt
443
00:18:16,062 --> 00:18:18,365
in the very last minutes
of her life?
444
00:18:18,398 --> 00:18:20,734
This poor woman, slaughtered
445
00:18:20,767 --> 00:18:24,037
in the bathroom of a place
where she worshipped,
446
00:18:24,037 --> 00:18:27,073
where she went
every single day for comfort.
447
00:18:27,107 --> 00:18:31,111
I can't imagine a more
horrible place and way to die.
448
00:18:31,144 --> 00:18:33,546
-Talk about the letter.
-The letter was found over here
449
00:18:33,580 --> 00:18:36,349
in the back part of the stall
and it had a fingerprint match
450
00:18:36,383 --> 00:18:38,118
that came back to
David Winecoff.
451
00:18:38,151 --> 00:18:39,819
You know, there were some
of Elizabeth's friends
452
00:18:39,853 --> 00:18:42,055
that saw her
at a worship service
453
00:18:42,055 --> 00:18:43,823
the night before,
holding that letter.
454
00:18:43,857 --> 00:18:45,492
That letter was an acceptance.
455
00:18:45,525 --> 00:18:47,660
She was showing it to different
people, like a graduation.
456
00:18:47,694 --> 00:18:49,195
You know what I'm saying?
So people are reading it.
457
00:18:49,229 --> 00:18:50,730
She also could have just
had it in her back pocket
458
00:18:50,764 --> 00:18:51,865
-and it fell out.
-Right. It just fell out.
459
00:18:51,898 --> 00:18:53,633
Does anybody see
any sexual element
460
00:18:53,667 --> 00:18:55,335
-to any of this?
-No.
461
00:18:55,368 --> 00:18:56,803
She was fully clothed.
462
00:18:56,836 --> 00:18:58,872
No indication
that her clothes were torn.
463
00:18:58,905 --> 00:19:00,407
-This isn't a sexual fantasy.
-Right.
464
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:01,574
I don't think
he's getting off to it.
465
00:19:01,608 --> 00:19:02,876
I think he wants
to make sure she's dead.
466
00:19:02,909 --> 00:19:04,678
-Yeah.
-And she's taking too long.
467
00:19:04,711 --> 00:19:06,046
To get a woman
who at some point
468
00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:08,181
is going to fight back some,
469
00:19:08,214 --> 00:19:09,916
and you got to
get that chair in here.
470
00:19:10,016 --> 00:19:11,618
-Mm-hmm.
-And you gotta tie this up.
471
00:19:11,651 --> 00:19:13,219
How long is
all that going to take?
472
00:19:13,253 --> 00:19:14,387
I'd say no more than ten,
for sure.
473
00:19:14,421 --> 00:19:16,056
-No more than ten.
-In this room.
474
00:19:16,089 --> 00:19:17,757
-This room.
-Plus the three over there.
475
00:19:17,791 --> 00:19:19,793
We're talking about 13,
15 minutes.
476
00:19:19,826 --> 00:19:21,528
And he just walks back out.
477
00:19:21,561 --> 00:19:23,630
I've worked a lot
of sexual assault cases,
478
00:19:23,663 --> 00:19:25,865
and if you think about
the fact that the attacker
479
00:19:25,899 --> 00:19:27,901
spent about 13 minutes
with Elizabeth alone
480
00:19:27,934 --> 00:19:29,269
and didn't attempt a rape
481
00:19:29,302 --> 00:19:32,405
like the one our suspect
Eugene Smith was arrested for,
482
00:19:32,439 --> 00:19:33,740
or a molestation
483
00:19:33,773 --> 00:19:36,543
like the one our suspect
George Johnson fantasized about,
484
00:19:36,576 --> 00:19:38,345
I think we can
pretty much assume
485
00:19:38,378 --> 00:19:39,879
that these are not our guys.
486
00:19:39,913 --> 00:19:41,915
This was personal.
This was rage.
487
00:19:50,657 --> 00:19:53,226
***
488
00:19:53,259 --> 00:19:54,661
You ready?
489
00:19:58,098 --> 00:19:59,065
-Gentlemen.
-[chuckling]
490
00:19:59,099 --> 00:20:00,734
-Good morning.
-Good morning.
491
00:20:00,767 --> 00:20:04,404
After reenacting
Elizabeth Mackintosh's murder,
492
00:20:04,437 --> 00:20:07,340
we've confirmed
it wasn't sexually motivated.
493
00:20:07,374 --> 00:20:08,975
It was motivated by rage.
494
00:20:09,009 --> 00:20:12,112
Any thoughts from yesterday
that we need to talk about?
495
00:20:12,145 --> 00:20:14,447
We got the DNA call
today at 2:00.
496
00:20:14,481 --> 00:20:16,783
-Yes, ma'am.
-We know that Elizabeth's boss,
497
00:20:16,816 --> 00:20:19,252
Michael Johnson,
was frustrated with Elizabeth
498
00:20:19,285 --> 00:20:22,689
and went to confront her
that morning about their issues.
499
00:20:22,722 --> 00:20:25,158
But then he claimed
that he couldn't find her
500
00:20:25,191 --> 00:20:26,860
and went on about his day,
501
00:20:26,893 --> 00:20:30,096
never visiting the men's
bathroom where she was found.
502
00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:31,698
Kelly, Steve,
this is Danny Rapert,
503
00:20:31,731 --> 00:20:33,166
the detective at the time.
504
00:20:33,199 --> 00:20:36,736
He conducted the original
interview with Michael Johnson.
505
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:37,604
I guess it's no secret
to you.
506
00:20:37,637 --> 00:20:39,105
You're obviously a suspect.
507
00:20:39,139 --> 00:20:40,440
You were in the building.
508
00:20:40,473 --> 00:20:43,743
It's also a known fact
that you two
509
00:20:43,777 --> 00:20:45,311
weren't necessarily friendly.
510
00:20:45,345 --> 00:20:47,180
I watched
the whole interview again.
511
00:20:47,213 --> 00:20:48,515
Not sure
who that young guy was
512
00:20:48,548 --> 00:20:50,917
-that was doing the interview.
-[chuckling]
513
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:52,819
-Well, that was you.
-Oh, okay.
514
00:20:52,852 --> 00:20:55,989
Detective Danny Rapert
is here today to go over
515
00:20:56,022 --> 00:20:58,625
Michael Johnson's interview tape
to see if we can
516
00:20:58,658 --> 00:21:01,294
pick up on any
possible signs of deception.
517
00:21:01,327 --> 00:21:02,429
One of the first things
518
00:21:02,462 --> 00:21:04,264
that I made note of
is on page six.
519
00:21:04,297 --> 00:21:06,199
It says "Approximately 6:25,
520
00:21:06,232 --> 00:21:08,201
"I got up to take a shower.
521
00:21:08,234 --> 00:21:11,571
I went there to talk to her
about a couple of things."
522
00:21:21,247 --> 00:21:24,718
He's referencing the memo,
which might anger him.
523
00:21:42,335 --> 00:21:44,237
Then Danny asks him,
524
00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:46,272
"Okay, you went there
about 7:10.
525
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,809
You were upstairs. You went
downstairs, you looked around.
526
00:21:49,843 --> 00:21:52,312
Did you call her name?
527
00:21:52,345 --> 00:21:54,314
How's he looking for her, then?
528
00:22:09,629 --> 00:22:11,865
You went downstairs then?
529
00:22:11,898 --> 00:22:14,734
He says, "Okay, you left
the chapel. Where did you go?"
530
00:22:14,768 --> 00:22:16,269
"I went to
the administration building."
531
00:22:16,302 --> 00:22:19,105
Okay, now that's just
about a 2-minute walk.
532
00:22:19,139 --> 00:22:21,474
The admin building.
533
00:22:21,508 --> 00:22:25,612
Where'd you go into it,
on the side door?
534
00:22:25,645 --> 00:22:27,180
Back door down by the dorms?
535
00:22:32,085 --> 00:22:33,753
So he wanted a little bit
of a change.
536
00:22:33,787 --> 00:22:36,589
-On this day.
-On this day.
537
00:22:36,623 --> 00:22:39,225
8:30, you left
the admin building.
538
00:22:39,259 --> 00:22:40,760
Where'd you go?
You went back up the stairs.
539
00:22:40,794 --> 00:22:42,095
[Michael, whispering]
540
00:22:42,095 --> 00:22:44,364
When he says,
"I went back to the chapel,"
541
00:22:44,397 --> 00:22:49,636
Dan, this is probably the most
concerning portion here.
542
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:52,972
You arrive back
at the chapel about 8:32,
543
00:22:53,006 --> 00:22:55,375
and obviously you said,
"My God,
544
00:22:55,408 --> 00:22:56,643
there's police everywhere,"
right?
545
00:23:00,246 --> 00:23:01,881
Did you walk up and
talk to anybody then?
546
00:23:10,924 --> 00:23:12,325
"Went back to the rest."
547
00:23:15,729 --> 00:23:18,198
In order to go "back"
to the restroom,
548
00:23:18,231 --> 00:23:19,299
-you have to have been there.
-That's a good catch.
549
00:23:19,332 --> 00:23:21,434
I don't remember
catching it at the time,
550
00:23:21,468 --> 00:23:23,670
but, yeah, it's
a good catch on your part.
551
00:23:23,703 --> 00:23:24,971
According to Michael,
552
00:23:25,071 --> 00:23:27,273
he never went
to the restroom that morning.
553
00:23:27,307 --> 00:23:29,809
According to the tape,
he might have slipped up.
554
00:23:29,843 --> 00:23:32,879
-All right, Danny, thanks a lot.
-Thank you very much.
555
00:23:32,912 --> 00:23:35,482
Maybe he was nervous
and just misspoke,
556
00:23:35,515 --> 00:23:37,183
but he sure doesn't
look nervous.
557
00:23:37,217 --> 00:23:40,720
In any case, Michael's story
sure seems a little fishy.
558
00:23:40,754 --> 00:23:42,956
***
559
00:23:42,989 --> 00:23:45,091
You know, there aren't
very many cases where
560
00:23:45,091 --> 00:23:46,493
you want DNA as much
as we want it on this one.
561
00:23:46,526 --> 00:23:48,461
-Right.
-Michael claims
562
00:23:48,495 --> 00:23:50,296
he never even saw Elizabeth
that morning,
563
00:23:50,330 --> 00:23:52,098
but can DNA place him
564
00:23:52,132 --> 00:23:54,801
or any of our other
three suspects at the scene?
565
00:23:54,834 --> 00:23:56,102
[line ringing]
566
00:23:57,103 --> 00:23:59,272
- Katelin Hogan speaking.
-Hi, Katelin.
567
00:23:59,305 --> 00:24:02,208
We sent the ligature
and Elizabeth's clothes
568
00:24:02,242 --> 00:24:05,545
off for the most recent,
advanced DNA testing,
569
00:24:05,578 --> 00:24:08,081
and now it's time
for the moment of truth.
570
00:24:18,258 --> 00:24:21,094
So no--no male DNA present
on that. Okay.
571
00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:38,778
-Okay.
-Wow.
572
00:24:38,812 --> 00:24:40,613
Well, thank you for trying.
573
00:24:41,815 --> 00:24:43,917
Well, that's unfortunate.
574
00:24:43,950 --> 00:24:45,452
I know you're disappointed.
575
00:24:45,485 --> 00:24:47,921
Sorensen did their best
and tried their hardest.
576
00:24:47,954 --> 00:24:48,988
I'm not surprised.
577
00:24:49,089 --> 00:24:50,357
I think that we're
all disappointed
578
00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:51,658
because we would like
for that to be
579
00:24:51,691 --> 00:24:53,860
the easy way to answer
this case, but it didn't,
580
00:24:53,893 --> 00:24:55,829
so we're right back
to the typical way of
581
00:24:55,862 --> 00:24:57,931
solving a cold case--
We gotta go find witnesses
582
00:24:57,964 --> 00:24:59,699
and see what
they can remember today
583
00:24:59,733 --> 00:25:02,102
and see if that's enough
to piece the case together.
584
00:25:13,113 --> 00:25:15,415
[line ringing]
585
00:25:15,448 --> 00:25:17,283
-Hello?
-Hey, Doug Manniger here
586
00:25:17,317 --> 00:25:18,952
with the Creve Coeur
Police Department.
587
00:25:19,052 --> 00:25:20,553
Wanted to see if you
have a couple of minutes
588
00:25:20,587 --> 00:25:22,722
-to talk with me real quick.
-Okay.
589
00:25:22,756 --> 00:25:24,457
Our suspect,
David Winecoff,
590
00:25:24,491 --> 00:25:26,626
got on law enforcement's radar
591
00:25:26,659 --> 00:25:28,561
because that acceptance letter
592
00:25:28,595 --> 00:25:31,331
found at the scene
had his fingerprints on it.
593
00:25:31,364 --> 00:25:33,967
And some people believe
that Winecoff's
594
00:25:34,067 --> 00:25:35,568
fatal rock-climbing accident
595
00:25:35,602 --> 00:25:38,672
three years later was actually
596
00:25:38,705 --> 00:25:42,108
a suicide out of guilt
over killing Elizabeth.
597
00:25:42,142 --> 00:25:45,078
You knew Elizabeth
very well, correct?
598
00:25:47,547 --> 00:25:49,816
-Okay.
-David's widow
599
00:25:49,849 --> 00:25:52,619
alibied David
for Elizabeth's murder.
600
00:25:52,652 --> 00:25:56,389
So the question today is,
can she confirm that,
601
00:25:56,423 --> 00:25:59,259
or did he ever tell her
anything incriminating
602
00:25:59,292 --> 00:26:00,827
before his death?
603
00:26:00,860 --> 00:26:04,297
That Sunday evening
before Elizabeth was killed,
604
00:26:04,330 --> 00:26:06,666
did you happen to be attending
service that day?
605
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:07,867
Okay.
606
00:26:12,672 --> 00:26:13,907
Okay.
607
00:26:13,940 --> 00:26:17,043
Were you aware that Elizabeth
had been accepted
608
00:26:17,043 --> 00:26:19,412
to another seminary
in the Florida area?
609
00:26:22,816 --> 00:26:25,118
So Monday,
day of the murder.
610
00:26:27,153 --> 00:26:28,254
Mm-hmm.
611
00:26:35,161 --> 00:26:36,262
[chuckles]
612
00:26:40,834 --> 00:26:41,901
Sure.
613
00:26:42,902 --> 00:26:45,672
Her story matches
what she told the police,
614
00:26:45,705 --> 00:26:47,841
and she confirms that David
615
00:26:47,874 --> 00:26:50,744
spoke to Elizabeth
the night before her murder.
616
00:26:50,777 --> 00:26:53,813
You have to wonder if
Elizabeth was so excited
617
00:26:53,847 --> 00:26:55,482
about that acceptance letter
618
00:26:55,515 --> 00:26:57,317
that she showed it to David,
619
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:58,551
and that would explain
620
00:26:58,585 --> 00:27:00,687
his fingerprint being
on the letter.
621
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,123
But we also need to
clarify the circumstances
622
00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:05,025
surrounding David's death.
623
00:27:05,025 --> 00:27:07,394
You know, in your opinion,
you didn't find him to be
624
00:27:07,427 --> 00:27:09,229
you know, distraught or have--
625
00:27:09,262 --> 00:27:11,765
suffering from depression or...?
626
00:27:12,766 --> 00:27:15,301
His climbing event was,
in your opinion,
627
00:27:15,335 --> 00:27:16,703
an accident, is that right?
628
00:27:17,671 --> 00:27:19,406
Okay. Very good.
629
00:27:20,407 --> 00:27:21,775
Okay.
630
00:27:24,411 --> 00:27:26,079
Gotcha.
631
00:27:27,914 --> 00:27:30,050
It's been 28 years
since David's
632
00:27:30,050 --> 00:27:32,218
fatal rock climbing accident,
633
00:27:32,252 --> 00:27:34,554
and she has no reason
in the world
634
00:27:34,587 --> 00:27:37,557
to burden her conscience
by making up something
635
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:39,592
about what happened
to her husband.
636
00:27:39,626 --> 00:27:42,462
-I do thank you for your time.
-All right.
637
00:27:42,495 --> 00:27:43,563
-Goodbye.
-Bye bye.
638
00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:45,065
I think we can eliminate
639
00:27:45,065 --> 00:27:47,801
David Winecoff
as a suspect as well.
640
00:27:47,834 --> 00:27:50,270
Okay, let's do
Mr. Thomas Larson.
641
00:27:50,303 --> 00:27:52,072
-So he's the boss.
-He's the boss
642
00:27:52,105 --> 00:27:54,908
of Michael Johnson
and technically Elizabeth.
643
00:27:54,941 --> 00:27:58,378
He'll attest to their work
relationship, I think.
644
00:27:58,411 --> 00:28:00,080
Yeah.
We have eliminated
645
00:28:00,113 --> 00:28:03,216
all of our suspects
except for Elizabeth's boss,
646
00:28:03,249 --> 00:28:06,553
Michael Johnson,
who she was feuding with
647
00:28:06,586 --> 00:28:10,190
by memos in the days
leading up to her murder.
648
00:28:10,223 --> 00:28:11,791
Hi, this is Thomas.
649
00:28:11,825 --> 00:28:13,760
Hey. Good morning,
Mr. Larson.
650
00:28:13,793 --> 00:28:16,730
Michael's boss was a guy
named Thomas Larson,
651
00:28:16,763 --> 00:28:18,431
and we're hoping
by speaking to him,
652
00:28:18,465 --> 00:28:21,067
he can shed some light
on this workplace feud
653
00:28:21,101 --> 00:28:22,936
they were having
via memos,
654
00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:24,537
and maybe even shed some light
655
00:28:24,571 --> 00:28:26,806
on Michael Johnson
as a person.
656
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,276
Could their workplace feud
really have enraged him
657
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:31,778
to the point of murder?
658
00:28:31,811 --> 00:28:33,913
Can you tell me
a little bit about Elizabeth?
659
00:28:45,492 --> 00:28:48,161
Who else did you--
did you supervise?
660
00:28:51,831 --> 00:28:54,768
And he was Elizabeth's
direct supervisor,
661
00:28:54,801 --> 00:28:56,069
is that correct, sir?
662
00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:12,185
Right.
663
00:29:14,521 --> 00:29:16,022
Right.
664
00:29:37,677 --> 00:29:39,245
According to Tom Larson,
665
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:42,649
Michael Johnson
is hot-tempered and arrogant.
666
00:29:42,682 --> 00:29:44,918
Maybe that arrogance is
what accounts for
667
00:29:44,951 --> 00:29:48,421
his very relaxed demeanor
during his police interrogation.
668
00:29:48,455 --> 00:29:50,490
And you have to wonder
if that temper
669
00:29:50,523 --> 00:29:53,059
could have caused
him to lose control
670
00:29:53,093 --> 00:29:55,228
in confronting Elizabeth.
671
00:29:55,261 --> 00:29:57,364
We wanted to
talk specifically about
672
00:29:57,397 --> 00:29:59,566
the memo between
Elizabeth and Michael.
673
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:01,301
So I'm just going to
read a little bit
674
00:30:01,334 --> 00:30:02,702
from your statements
675
00:30:02,736 --> 00:30:04,971
the day of the murder
on the 26th of March.
676
00:30:05,005 --> 00:30:07,540
"Larson also reported
that he had recently received
677
00:30:07,574 --> 00:30:10,543
"a written request for
supplies from Mackintosh.
678
00:30:10,577 --> 00:30:12,645
"He then gave
the written request to
679
00:30:12,679 --> 00:30:14,981
"her direct supervisor,
Michael Johnson.
680
00:30:15,015 --> 00:30:17,650
"Johnson became upset
with her bypassing
681
00:30:17,684 --> 00:30:19,552
"the proper chain of command
682
00:30:19,586 --> 00:30:21,921
"and prepared a letter
to give to her.
683
00:30:21,955 --> 00:30:24,257
"Larson then stated
that he was provided
684
00:30:24,290 --> 00:30:26,126
a Xerox copy of this letter."
685
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:36,903
Thank you very much.
686
00:30:36,936 --> 00:30:38,138
Thank you very much
for the work.
687
00:30:38,171 --> 00:30:39,906
Yes, sir. You're very welcome.
Thank you.
688
00:30:39,939 --> 00:30:42,042
I think we need
to review these memos
689
00:30:42,075 --> 00:30:44,044
between Michael and Elizabeth
690
00:30:44,077 --> 00:30:47,280
and see if possibly
all the evidence we need
691
00:30:47,313 --> 00:30:50,784
has been right here
in front of us this whole time.
692
00:30:57,824 --> 00:30:59,392
***
693
00:30:59,426 --> 00:31:01,561
So these notes...
694
00:31:01,594 --> 00:31:03,830
So this is the letter
that he wrote to her.
695
00:31:03,863 --> 00:31:05,699
Yeah. It's
a very detailed letter
696
00:31:05,732 --> 00:31:07,667
for a simple supply request.
697
00:31:07,701 --> 00:31:11,871
Elizabeth Mackintosh felt
like her boss, Michael Johnson,
698
00:31:11,905 --> 00:31:13,873
was not getting her
the cleaning supplies
699
00:31:13,907 --> 00:31:15,542
she needed to do her job.
700
00:31:15,575 --> 00:31:17,510
So she went over his head
701
00:31:17,544 --> 00:31:19,946
and wrote to his boss,
Tom Larson.
702
00:31:19,979 --> 00:31:23,183
This kicked off a series
of exchanges
703
00:31:23,216 --> 00:31:24,818
between the two of them,
704
00:31:24,851 --> 00:31:27,287
and this is what prompted
Michael Johnson to want
705
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,857
to go speak to Elizabeth
the very morning of her murder.
706
00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:32,559
It's time
we take a closer look.
707
00:31:32,592 --> 00:31:34,728
-Read the whole thing.
-Yes, ma'am.
708
00:31:34,761 --> 00:31:38,531
"Elizabeth, last Friday
I found this note in my box.
709
00:31:38,565 --> 00:31:41,201
"My first difficulty
is why a note like this
710
00:31:41,234 --> 00:31:43,336
"should have
been given to Tom Larson.
711
00:31:43,370 --> 00:31:47,107
"My frustration with this note
is augmented by the following--"
712
00:31:47,107 --> 00:31:48,575
He has four points.
713
00:31:48,608 --> 00:31:53,513
Michael's note to Elizabeth
is detailed and condescending,
714
00:31:53,546 --> 00:31:56,549
listing four ways
that her note to Tom
715
00:31:56,583 --> 00:32:00,086
was both inaccurate
and out of line.
716
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,857
His frustration with Elizabeth
is so clear.
717
00:32:03,890 --> 00:32:06,192
And then this is the note
that Elizabeth
718
00:32:06,226 --> 00:32:07,694
wrote to Michael Johnson
719
00:32:07,727 --> 00:32:09,262
about, you're getting
too worked up, right?
720
00:32:09,295 --> 00:32:10,930
Correct.
Her response, yeah.
721
00:32:10,964 --> 00:32:12,899
You were talking
about some corrections.
722
00:32:12,932 --> 00:32:14,334
This is the same note.
723
00:32:14,367 --> 00:32:16,870
It's returned with
just some highlighted things
724
00:32:16,903 --> 00:32:18,405
and pencil marks on it.
725
00:32:18,438 --> 00:32:20,573
"Clearly you are wrong,"
she says to him,
726
00:32:20,607 --> 00:32:22,242
so she's confrontational.
727
00:32:22,275 --> 00:32:23,743
They take this
so personally, yeah.
728
00:32:24,711 --> 00:32:26,446
Elizabeth not only sent Michael
729
00:32:26,479 --> 00:32:29,082
a handwritten note
and told him to lighten up,
730
00:32:29,082 --> 00:32:31,584
she returned his letter,
correcting his spelling
731
00:32:31,618 --> 00:32:33,119
and adding her own thoughts
732
00:32:33,153 --> 00:32:35,255
with commentary like,
"You are wrong,"
733
00:32:35,288 --> 00:32:36,990
and "garbage and nonsense,"
734
00:32:37,090 --> 00:32:40,293
and "Do not ever write me this
sort of tone of memo again."
735
00:32:40,326 --> 00:32:43,163
Elizabeth clearly had
no problem defending herself.
736
00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:44,798
Can you imagine that your boss
sends you a note
737
00:32:44,831 --> 00:32:46,166
and you just like,
make corrections...
738
00:32:46,199 --> 00:32:47,267
ALL:
And send it right back.
739
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:49,469
He still gets it back before...
740
00:32:49,502 --> 00:32:52,305
March 26, which is
going to further agitate him.
741
00:32:52,339 --> 00:32:54,274
-A little bit, I would say.
-I would think so.
742
00:32:54,307 --> 00:32:56,109
Great, great.
I like that.
743
00:32:56,109 --> 00:32:58,812
These notes really
paint a clear picture
744
00:32:58,845 --> 00:33:01,648
of the conflict
between Elizabeth and Michael
745
00:33:01,681 --> 00:33:03,817
in the days before the murder.
746
00:33:03,850 --> 00:33:05,652
And according to the case file,
747
00:33:05,685 --> 00:33:09,255
this was not the only stressor
going on in Michael's life.
748
00:33:09,289 --> 00:33:11,658
The day before the murder,
he was denied
749
00:33:11,691 --> 00:33:14,094
a recommendation
from the seminary.
750
00:33:14,127 --> 00:33:16,896
He was told he was going to
have to move out of his house,
751
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:18,298
and according to the neighbors,
752
00:33:18,331 --> 00:33:20,633
he got into
an argument with his wife
753
00:33:20,667 --> 00:33:22,302
the night before the murders.
754
00:33:22,335 --> 00:33:24,270
That is a lot of stressors.
755
00:33:24,304 --> 00:33:26,606
If we're all thinking that
he's not going to stand there
756
00:33:26,639 --> 00:33:28,408
and talk to y'all
for very long tomorrow,
757
00:33:28,441 --> 00:33:29,809
if you're only going to get
one question
758
00:33:29,843 --> 00:33:32,312
or two minutes with him
tomorrow in Texas,
759
00:33:32,345 --> 00:33:33,813
maybe this note is it.
760
00:33:33,847 --> 00:33:35,849
Maybe this is what'll
make him say something.
761
00:33:35,882 --> 00:33:36,950
Mm-hmm.
762
00:33:36,983 --> 00:33:40,653
***
763
00:33:40,687 --> 00:33:46,226
***
764
00:33:51,331 --> 00:33:52,499
Hey, buddy.
765
00:33:52,532 --> 00:33:55,101
Hey, Doug.
Chuck and Steve here on speaker.
766
00:33:55,101 --> 00:33:58,204
We have located
Michael Johnson's vehicle.
767
00:33:58,238 --> 00:33:59,472
Nice.
768
00:33:59,506 --> 00:34:02,475
We do believe that he's
inside working right now.
769
00:34:02,509 --> 00:34:04,911
Detective Parker and I
flew down to Texas
770
00:34:04,944 --> 00:34:06,079
to confront Michael Johnson
771
00:34:06,112 --> 00:34:08,381
face to face,
once and for all.
772
00:34:08,415 --> 00:34:10,150
He wasn't at home,
so we've tracked him down
773
00:34:10,183 --> 00:34:12,052
to his job
at a home improvement store.
774
00:34:12,085 --> 00:34:14,354
Y'all found his car
in the parking lot?
775
00:34:14,387 --> 00:34:15,722
-We did.
-Great.
776
00:34:15,755 --> 00:34:17,891
You know, he could be
getting off within an hour,
777
00:34:17,924 --> 00:34:19,559
or it could be--you know,
778
00:34:19,592 --> 00:34:21,061
he could be the late guy.
We don't know.
779
00:34:21,061 --> 00:34:23,063
Catch him when he's walking
to his car
780
00:34:23,063 --> 00:34:24,564
and he's not going to
have any idea
781
00:34:24,597 --> 00:34:26,066
you're going to be
coming at him there.
782
00:34:26,066 --> 00:34:29,069
We're going to wait it out
and see what happens.
783
00:34:29,069 --> 00:34:30,136
-Good luck.
-All right.
784
00:34:30,170 --> 00:34:31,638
Thanks, Chuck.
Keep us updated.
785
00:34:31,671 --> 00:34:32,906
We don't want
to approach Michael
786
00:34:32,939 --> 00:34:35,175
inside the store
and create a scene,
787
00:34:35,208 --> 00:34:36,609
so now we sit and wait.
788
00:34:37,577 --> 00:34:39,479
Okay, we wait.
789
00:34:39,512 --> 00:34:41,348
Nothing like surveillance.
790
00:34:41,381 --> 00:34:48,488
***
791
00:34:52,759 --> 00:34:54,728
Man, when they used to have to
conduct surveillance like this,
792
00:34:54,761 --> 00:34:56,596
this must have been
a long freaking night.
793
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:58,565
We've done it on
bank robberies before.
794
00:34:58,598 --> 00:35:00,367
-Yeah.
-And it was cold, too.
795
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,634
We did it in the winter.
796
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:14,881
***
797
00:35:15,882 --> 00:35:17,717
There's an older guy walking
over there.
798
00:35:17,751 --> 00:35:18,918
-It's not him.
-Yeah.
799
00:35:19,953 --> 00:35:21,955
-Here he comes. Praise Jesus.
-That's him.
800
00:35:22,055 --> 00:35:24,057
Okay, let's go hot with
the recorder.
801
00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:25,425
-Yeah, it is on.
-[groans]
802
00:35:25,458 --> 00:35:27,427
Let's go. We got...
803
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:31,364
***
804
00:35:31,398 --> 00:35:33,400
-Michael Johnson?
-Yes?
805
00:35:33,433 --> 00:35:34,534
Hey, I'm Chuck Parker.
806
00:35:34,567 --> 00:35:36,403
I'm a detective
with Creve Coeur Police.
807
00:35:36,436 --> 00:35:37,971
-How are you doing?
-Pretty good.
808
00:35:38,071 --> 00:35:40,140
Okay. Hey,
I just wanted to update you
809
00:35:40,173 --> 00:35:42,075
on the Elizabeth Mackintosh
case.
810
00:35:42,075 --> 00:35:44,678
There's been some evidence
that's developed.
811
00:35:44,711 --> 00:35:45,945
Would you like to take
a look at it
812
00:35:45,979 --> 00:35:47,814
and provide some input
on it at all?
813
00:35:47,847 --> 00:35:49,683
-No, not right now.
-Okay.
814
00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,085
You're not interested at all
at what's been
815
00:35:52,085 --> 00:35:53,953
-developed over the years?
-No.
816
00:35:53,987 --> 00:35:56,322
-Why is that?
-I've talked to police before,
817
00:35:56,356 --> 00:35:57,457
and I've dealt with
police before,
818
00:35:57,490 --> 00:35:59,259
and any time
I've talked to the police
819
00:35:59,292 --> 00:36:00,827
it has not gone well.
820
00:36:00,860 --> 00:36:02,195
-Uh--
-I know that anything I can--
821
00:36:02,228 --> 00:36:05,265
I say, can and will be,
and it was used against me.
822
00:36:05,298 --> 00:36:07,367
Well, you put yourself
in that chapel
823
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,203
right near where she was
murdered that morning, right?
824
00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:11,671
I just walked through the hall.
825
00:36:11,705 --> 00:36:13,039
I mean,
I walked by the bathroom,
826
00:36:13,039 --> 00:36:14,307
but I didn't go in
the bathroom.
827
00:36:14,341 --> 00:36:15,842
You went there looking
for her, though, right?
828
00:36:15,875 --> 00:36:17,777
Yeah, to talk to her
about the whole issue
829
00:36:17,811 --> 00:36:19,112
with the bathroom,
I think it was.
830
00:36:19,145 --> 00:36:20,480
What time
do you think that was?
831
00:36:20,513 --> 00:36:22,182
Well, I think we've talked
about it, gentlemen.
832
00:36:22,215 --> 00:36:25,118
Now, look, Michael, I mean,
we're different investigators.
833
00:36:25,151 --> 00:36:28,054
We can look at this
from a different perspective.
834
00:36:30,657 --> 00:36:32,525
He basically
refused to talk to us,
835
00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:34,527
but, you know, he's
an experienced guy at this.
836
00:36:34,561 --> 00:36:36,696
This has got to be
his 6th or 7th time
837
00:36:36,730 --> 00:36:38,431
that law enforcement
has approached him.
838
00:36:38,465 --> 00:36:40,467
He's not going to let us
have an easy game here.
839
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:41,501
He wants to make us
work for it,
840
00:36:41,534 --> 00:36:43,103
and that's okay.
841
00:36:43,136 --> 00:36:44,738
Okay, he's not going to
talk to us.
842
00:36:45,872 --> 00:36:47,574
Some days the homicide gods
are with you
843
00:36:47,607 --> 00:36:48,808
and some days they ain't.
844
00:36:58,752 --> 00:37:00,587
***
845
00:37:00,620 --> 00:37:02,022
-Good morning, boys.
-Good morning, good morning.
846
00:37:02,055 --> 00:37:03,656
-Hello.
-How are you feeling today?
847
00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:05,058
Doing all right.
848
00:37:05,091 --> 00:37:07,827
Steve and Chuck are back
from their trip to Texas
849
00:37:07,861 --> 00:37:09,863
to try and talk
to Michael Johnson,
850
00:37:09,896 --> 00:37:12,165
who had no interest
in answering
851
00:37:12,198 --> 00:37:14,701
their questions
about Elizabeth's murder.
852
00:37:14,734 --> 00:37:17,070
The more you make
this case less cloudy,
853
00:37:17,103 --> 00:37:19,072
the more everything just
focuses back
854
00:37:19,105 --> 00:37:21,041
on one person,
but that's okay.
855
00:37:21,041 --> 00:37:23,510
We may have figured it out
ourselves.
856
00:37:23,543 --> 00:37:26,579
So Eugene Smith
was on our board because...?
857
00:37:26,613 --> 00:37:30,083
He had an arrest record,
sexual assault with a weapon.
858
00:37:30,116 --> 00:37:31,818
And George Johnston.
859
00:37:31,851 --> 00:37:34,487
He was known
to have sexual fantasies.
860
00:37:34,521 --> 00:37:38,324
Did we find one witness
who ever puts him in the chapel
861
00:37:38,358 --> 00:37:40,493
-the morning of our murder?
-No.
862
00:37:40,527 --> 00:37:41,561
No.
863
00:37:41,594 --> 00:37:44,597
Eugene Smith was
an alleged rapist,
864
00:37:44,631 --> 00:37:48,068
and George Johnson had
violent sexual fantasies.
865
00:37:48,101 --> 00:37:50,937
But the truth is,
nobody has ever been able to
866
00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:53,239
put them in
the seminary that morning.
867
00:37:53,273 --> 00:37:55,375
And it seems that her killer
868
00:37:55,408 --> 00:37:58,144
didn't even attempt
to sexually assault her.
869
00:37:58,178 --> 00:38:00,113
At this point,
we don't have any reason
870
00:38:00,146 --> 00:38:01,781
to believe
that he had any involvement.
871
00:38:01,815 --> 00:38:04,150
-Eliminate them? Yes. Yes.
-Everybody's good.
872
00:38:04,184 --> 00:38:07,654
If there's one thing
a repeat offender never changes,
873
00:38:07,687 --> 00:38:08,888
it's their motive.
874
00:38:08,922 --> 00:38:12,058
So we can eliminate
both of them.
875
00:38:12,092 --> 00:38:14,728
Okay.
David Winecoff.
876
00:38:14,761 --> 00:38:16,396
People saw them talking
to each other
877
00:38:16,429 --> 00:38:18,798
the night before
Sunday night in church.
878
00:38:18,832 --> 00:38:20,467
No issues,
no argument, no nothing.
879
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:23,603
And then you spoke
to David Winecoff's widow.
880
00:38:28,608 --> 00:38:30,610
David Winecoff
had his fingerprints on
881
00:38:30,643 --> 00:38:32,212
her letter found at the scene,
882
00:38:32,245 --> 00:38:34,280
but it seems now that
those fingerprints
883
00:38:34,314 --> 00:38:35,882
were there innocently
884
00:38:35,915 --> 00:38:39,219
from her showing him
that letter the night before.
885
00:38:39,252 --> 00:38:42,722
His alibi was
confirmed and reconfirmed.
886
00:38:42,756 --> 00:38:46,459
He had no motive whatsoever
to want to kill Elizabeth,
887
00:38:46,493 --> 00:38:49,796
and his death was nothing
but a tragic accident.
888
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:53,133
David Winecoff can be
eliminated as a suspect.
889
00:38:53,166 --> 00:38:55,502
So we got one man left standing,
Michael Johnson.
890
00:38:56,836 --> 00:39:01,007
He has admitted that he was
going to meet Elizabeth.
891
00:39:01,007 --> 00:39:05,045
And how do we first find out
about the issue,
892
00:39:05,078 --> 00:39:07,013
the reason
for all the dispute?
893
00:39:07,013 --> 00:39:10,216
A memo that was
a back-and-forth between
894
00:39:10,250 --> 00:39:11,818
Elizabeth and Michael Johnson
895
00:39:11,851 --> 00:39:14,020
about these supplies
and the toilet paper roll.
896
00:39:14,020 --> 00:39:15,622
So he gives her,
897
00:39:15,655 --> 00:39:18,024
in this letter that's
admissible, the stressors.
898
00:39:18,058 --> 00:39:19,359
Looking for a job.
He's trying to find...
899
00:39:19,392 --> 00:39:20,727
-Yeah. Pretty big.
-...a new employment.
900
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,129
And we know from other people,
how's his marriage going?
901
00:39:23,163 --> 00:39:24,664
-Not very well.
-They're struggling.
902
00:39:24,698 --> 00:39:26,032
You got the whole universe
903
00:39:26,032 --> 00:39:27,300
already starting
to crumble down.
904
00:39:27,334 --> 00:39:28,668
With all he's got
to deal with,
905
00:39:28,702 --> 00:39:30,036
he's going to go
at 5:00 in the morning
906
00:39:30,070 --> 00:39:32,539
and talk to Elizabeth
about cleaning supplies.
907
00:39:32,572 --> 00:39:35,108
What's this man's temper like?
908
00:39:35,141 --> 00:39:37,944
-He's angry.
-Yeah, short temper.
909
00:39:38,044 --> 00:39:40,113
Very volatile,
and how does he respond
910
00:39:40,146 --> 00:39:42,048
when people disagree with him?
911
00:39:42,082 --> 00:39:43,850
He beats his wife.
912
00:39:43,883 --> 00:39:46,486
It's easy to dismiss
this idea.
913
00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:48,488
How could Elizabeth
be killed over something
914
00:39:48,521 --> 00:39:50,824
as stupid as
cleaning supplies, right?
915
00:39:50,857 --> 00:39:54,060
But when you put
all the circumstantial evidence
916
00:39:54,094 --> 00:39:57,063
together,
you can piece together a case
917
00:39:57,063 --> 00:39:59,499
that it's a whole lot
more than that.
918
00:39:59,532 --> 00:40:01,234
How do you feel
about your case, Chuck?
919
00:40:01,267 --> 00:40:03,103
I think it's
the strongest it's been.
920
00:40:03,136 --> 00:40:06,072
When you picture the person
that's Michael Johnson,
921
00:40:06,106 --> 00:40:10,276
with his temper and his control
and anger management issues,
922
00:40:10,310 --> 00:40:12,512
you know
that he was stressed.
923
00:40:12,545 --> 00:40:15,548
He had been told he was
rejected by the seminary.
924
00:40:15,582 --> 00:40:18,118
He'd been told he had
to move out of his house.
925
00:40:18,151 --> 00:40:20,754
All of this caused a fight
with his wife
926
00:40:20,787 --> 00:40:22,689
the very night before
the murder.
927
00:40:22,722 --> 00:40:24,090
And on top of all that,
928
00:40:24,124 --> 00:40:26,326
this woman
that has the audacity
929
00:40:26,359 --> 00:40:28,528
to go over his head
to his boss
930
00:40:28,561 --> 00:40:31,197
to complain about
the cleaning supplies,
931
00:40:31,231 --> 00:40:33,099
he sets a time
to go meet with her
932
00:40:33,133 --> 00:40:35,368
the morning of the murder.
933
00:40:35,402 --> 00:40:37,771
It wasn't just
cleaning supplies.
934
00:40:37,804 --> 00:40:39,939
It was the last straw.
935
00:40:39,973 --> 00:40:42,909
And so you guys would be asking
your prosecutor to do what?
936
00:40:42,942 --> 00:40:45,645
To get warrants issued
for murder on Michael Johnson.
937
00:40:47,247 --> 00:40:48,848
Good luck.
938
00:40:48,882 --> 00:40:52,619
***
939
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,557
* Make your way *
940
00:40:57,590 --> 00:41:01,728
* To the river, amen. *
941
00:41:03,063 --> 00:41:05,799
* Bring your pain *
942
00:41:05,832 --> 00:41:10,637
* To the river, amen. *
943
00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:12,639
I'm really looking forward
to tell her we have
944
00:41:12,672 --> 00:41:14,774
a good case
I think that hopefully
945
00:41:14,808 --> 00:41:17,410
the prosecutor will
give some credence to, so.
946
00:41:17,444 --> 00:41:19,312
Been waiting 32 years...
947
00:41:19,346 --> 00:41:20,513
-That's right.
-...to hear what you're
948
00:41:20,547 --> 00:41:22,482
-going to tell her today.
-That's a long time.
949
00:41:22,515 --> 00:41:24,584
Doug and Chuck
have set a meeting with
950
00:41:24,617 --> 00:41:27,754
their prosecutor to go over
all the facts of the case.
951
00:41:27,787 --> 00:41:29,656
This is as close as
Elizabeth's case
952
00:41:29,689 --> 00:41:32,992
will ever be
to getting justice.
953
00:41:33,093 --> 00:41:36,496
It's time for this case
to move forward.
954
00:41:36,529 --> 00:41:38,431
It's nice and hot outside.
955
00:41:38,465 --> 00:41:40,834
-Yes. I'm glad you got in.
-Yes.
956
00:41:41,935 --> 00:41:43,503
-So...
-Well, we...
957
00:41:43,536 --> 00:41:46,606
are very interested
to find out.
958
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:47,440
Yes, ma'am.
959
00:41:47,474 --> 00:41:49,142
We worked very diligently.
960
00:41:49,175 --> 00:41:51,177
We talked to a lot
of different witnesses.
961
00:41:51,211 --> 00:41:53,580
We feel we have a good case.
962
00:41:53,613 --> 00:41:56,516
We have one person
that we're really focused on.
963
00:41:56,549 --> 00:41:58,651
We believe that
it was somebody that--
964
00:41:58,685 --> 00:42:00,620
that was probably there
on campus,
965
00:42:00,653 --> 00:42:02,288
somebody that lived there.
966
00:42:02,322 --> 00:42:04,691
Again, somebody
that knew her routine...
967
00:42:04,724 --> 00:42:06,159
Who's covering up
their reason
968
00:42:06,192 --> 00:42:08,828
for needing
to see her at that time.
969
00:42:08,862 --> 00:42:10,397
Yeah.
970
00:42:10,430 --> 00:42:11,531
We're going to present it
971
00:42:11,564 --> 00:42:12,699
to our St. Louis county
prosecutor
972
00:42:12,732 --> 00:42:13,733
and see what
they have to say.
973
00:42:13,767 --> 00:42:15,969
He was able
to find enough witnesses
974
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:17,537
still, 32 years later,
975
00:42:17,570 --> 00:42:20,073
to reconfirm
all the little pieces,
976
00:42:20,073 --> 00:42:21,408
to put it all together.
977
00:42:21,441 --> 00:42:23,543
It's a circumstantial
evidence case...
978
00:42:23,576 --> 00:42:25,178
-Mm-hmm.
-but it's still a good case.
979
00:42:25,211 --> 00:42:26,746
-That's wonderful.
-Yeah.
980
00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:29,282
That's wonderful
that you have a way forward.
981
00:42:29,315 --> 00:42:32,485
We've thought about this
for so many years
982
00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:34,688
and wondered
for so many years,
983
00:42:34,721 --> 00:42:36,690
and it's just remarkable
984
00:42:36,723 --> 00:42:38,892
that they're able
to bring something together.
985
00:42:38,925 --> 00:42:41,361
It just shows how
passionate they were.
986
00:42:41,394 --> 00:42:44,831
Perhaps they can bring it
to conclusion now.
987
00:42:44,864 --> 00:42:48,401
I'm so very hopeful
that they can do that, finally.
988
00:42:48,435 --> 00:42:50,236
Everyone was, you know,
so pleasant
989
00:42:50,270 --> 00:42:52,572
when they talked about
Elizabeth and her personality.
990
00:42:52,605 --> 00:42:53,873
-She was very alive.
-Lots of new stories.
991
00:42:53,907 --> 00:42:55,208
She was very bright.
992
00:42:55,241 --> 00:42:57,143
Everybody remembers her.
993
00:42:57,177 --> 00:42:58,812
They couldn't be more happy
994
00:42:58,845 --> 00:43:00,380
that they're
still working on the case.
995
00:43:00,413 --> 00:43:01,748
-Yeah.
-So be happy
996
00:43:01,781 --> 00:43:03,183
to know that people
still think about your sister.
997
00:43:03,216 --> 00:43:04,451
Yes.
998
00:43:04,484 --> 00:43:08,054
Elizabeth Mackintosh
dedicated her life
999
00:43:08,088 --> 00:43:11,725
to God, to helping people,
1000
00:43:11,758 --> 00:43:13,760
to doing the right thing.
1001
00:43:13,793 --> 00:43:16,930
And, my God,
1002
00:43:16,963 --> 00:43:19,466
we all want to think
that she's
1003
00:43:19,499 --> 00:43:21,568
looking down
from heaven right now,
1004
00:43:21,601 --> 00:43:26,206
watching all of this,
knowing that everyone is trying
1005
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:31,177
their very hardest to get her
the justice she deserves.
1006
00:43:31,211 --> 00:43:38,251
***