1 00:00:02,876 --> 00:00:22,110 * Music * 2 00:00:22,176 --> 00:00:24,476 >> In this final episode of Metal Evolution, 3 00:00:24,543 --> 00:00:25,976 I'm exploring metals most unusual 4 00:00:26,043 --> 00:00:29,776 and experimental sub-genre; Progressive Metal. 5 00:00:29,843 --> 00:00:31,810 Some of my favourite modern metal bands like 6 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:35,476 Atlanta's Mastodon have expanded the sound of metal by adding 7 00:00:35,543 --> 00:00:38,476 odd time signatures and atmospheric passages to 8 00:00:38,543 --> 00:00:41,543 their music but I actually don't know what the term 9 00:00:41,610 --> 00:00:44,110 Progressive Metal really means and so the question for 10 00:00:44,176 --> 00:00:47,876 this final episode is; what is Progressive metal and 11 00:00:47,943 --> 00:00:49,743 what does it tell us about the evolution 12 00:00:49,810 --> 00:00:51,843 of Heavy Metal and the future of the genre. 13 00:00:51,910 --> 00:01:01,810 * Music * 14 00:01:04,676 --> 00:01:58,343 * Intro * 15 00:01:59,776 --> 00:02:14,543 * Music * 16 00:02:14,610 --> 00:02:16,543 >> Progressive Metal is a sub-genre that encompasses 17 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:20,443 a huge range of heavy bands from over the past 30 years, 18 00:02:20,510 --> 00:02:23,110 from Rush in the '70s to present day prog metalers 19 00:02:23,176 --> 00:02:26,810 like Mastodon, but before I get into the specific contributions 20 00:02:26,876 --> 00:02:30,110 of these bands I'm meeting with the Mastodon guys 21 00:02:30,110 --> 00:02:33,110 to get a sense of Progressive Metals musical roots. 22 00:02:33,810 --> 00:02:36,876 * Music * 23 00:02:36,943 --> 00:02:40,110 Sam: So with Mastodon, who were your big influences? 24 00:02:40,110 --> 00:02:43,876 Brann Dailor: Genesis, Yes, King Crimson all that good stuff. 25 00:02:43,943 --> 00:02:46,943 I got deep into metal early but prog rock was always there 26 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:49,443 you know, it comes up and we're playing it as a kind of 27 00:02:49,510 --> 00:02:52,776 free-spirit thing you know we are always trying to do it and 28 00:02:52,843 --> 00:02:57,110 I think the progressive music is something that that speaks to. 29 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:59,443 Bill Kelliher: Prog Rock that's just where we all come from. 30 00:02:59,510 --> 00:03:01,210 It's the kind of stuff I would listen to and just be 31 00:03:01,276 --> 00:03:03,910 like what the hell just happened, what is that? 32 00:03:03,976 --> 00:03:05,776 Is that music or is that coming from another planet? 33 00:03:05,843 --> 00:03:07,576 It's very alien. 34 00:03:07,643 --> 00:03:09,676 It kind of gave me the knowledge that you can do stuff 35 00:03:09,743 --> 00:03:12,576 like that and get away with it and put it in a song. 36 00:03:12,643 --> 00:03:14,743 Brann: Especially with a lot of the Genesis stuff they had this 37 00:03:14,810 --> 00:03:17,943 weird corky like almost circus like aspect to them. 38 00:03:18,010 --> 00:03:21,810 * Music * 39 00:03:21,876 --> 00:03:24,110 Brann: So that appealed to me as well, as the really heavy dark 40 00:03:24,143 --> 00:03:26,876 deep stuff you know that they were able to achieve, 41 00:03:26,943 --> 00:03:29,910 so I think Genesis really had the best of both 42 00:03:29,976 --> 00:03:32,310 those worlds you know they definitely collided. 43 00:03:32,376 --> 00:03:35,510 It was the full spectrum of emotion in their music. 44 00:03:35,576 --> 00:03:54,110 * Music * 45 00:03:54,176 --> 00:03:56,110 Sam: So I'm doing a series on the history of heavy metal, 46 00:03:56,143 --> 00:04:00,443 I never imagined that I'd be exploring British prog rock. 47 00:04:00,510 --> 00:04:03,543 I mean this music to me is more connected to flutes and 48 00:04:03,610 --> 00:04:07,443 mythology and distorted guitar but it turns out a lot of metal 49 00:04:07,510 --> 00:04:10,776 musicians were influenced by bands like King Crimson and Yes 50 00:04:10,843 --> 00:04:14,810 and Genesis and so I've come to the studio of Steve Hackett who 51 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:18,610 was the Genesis guitarist back in the '70s 'cause I want to get 52 00:04:18,676 --> 00:04:21,576 a deeper understanding as to what really is the relationship 53 00:04:21,643 --> 00:04:25,376 between British prog and heavy metal. 54 00:04:26,810 --> 00:04:28,410 Sam: From your vantage point does it make sense that 55 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:31,743 contemporary metal bands would be inspired 56 00:04:31,810 --> 00:04:34,443 by the Genesis records of the '70s? 57 00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:36,010 Steve Hackett: Yeah, I think so. 58 00:04:36,110 --> 00:04:38,743 I take off my cap to heavy metal because what you normally find 59 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:41,843 is guys playing it in their spare time and they were 60 00:04:41,910 --> 00:04:44,776 listeneing to many different kinds of music including what is 61 00:04:44,843 --> 00:04:48,676 now known as progressive, so you know somewhere between heavy 62 00:04:48,743 --> 00:04:51,876 metal and progressive there is a meeting place in music. 63 00:04:51,943 --> 00:05:00,176 * Music * 64 00:05:00,243 --> 00:05:02,510 Steve: For instance, think of technique. 65 00:05:02,576 --> 00:05:06,610 In '71 I did my first album with Genesis; Nursery Cryme. 66 00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:10,310 I was trying to play a line out of 'Toccata et Fuga' and 67 00:05:10,376 --> 00:05:11,943 I thought the only way I could do it would be all on one 68 00:05:12,010 --> 00:05:14,743 string you know if you wanted to make that stretch 69 00:05:14,810 --> 00:05:16,010 and that's when I came up with tapping. 70 00:05:16,110 --> 00:05:18,310 * Music * 71 00:05:18,376 --> 00:05:20,110 Steve: And I found that you could do that phenomenally 72 00:05:20,143 --> 00:05:23,610 fast on one string and then skip from one string to the other and 73 00:05:23,676 --> 00:05:26,643 it would look like you weren't really moving, it's the economy 74 00:05:26,710 --> 00:05:30,410 of energy, minimum movement maximum distribution. 75 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:32,943 Sam: Of course it ended being an essential tool in the toolkit 76 00:05:33,010 --> 00:05:35,643 of heavy metal guitar and still to this day kids 77 00:05:35,710 --> 00:05:37,410 are trying to perfect this technique. 78 00:05:37,476 --> 00:05:38,343 Steve: Yeah. 79 00:05:38,410 --> 00:05:45,710 * Music * 80 00:05:45,776 --> 00:05:47,643 Chris Welch: It's quite fascinating and almost baffling 81 00:05:47,710 --> 00:05:51,576 in a way, that later generations of heavy metal bands 82 00:05:51,643 --> 00:05:54,110 would be inspired by progressive rock bands. 83 00:05:54,110 --> 00:05:56,110 I suppose it's because although they weren't playing 84 00:05:56,176 --> 00:05:58,476 heavy metal music the stuff they did play had 85 00:05:58,543 --> 00:06:01,410 tremendous vitality and tremendous energy. 86 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:04,110 What it was really was a coming together of all 87 00:06:04,176 --> 00:06:07,376 the better class of musicians, guys who had studied and 88 00:06:07,443 --> 00:06:09,843 maybe undergone for classical music training. 89 00:06:09,910 --> 00:06:12,443 They wanted to be part of the rock music scene as well. 90 00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:24,110 * Music * 91 00:06:24,110 --> 00:06:26,810 Sam: In your own musical upbringing to what extent 92 00:06:26,876 --> 00:06:29,910 was classical music part of your influence 93 00:06:29,976 --> 00:06:31,410 in where you were coming from? 94 00:06:31,476 --> 00:06:34,476 Chris Squire: No yeah mainly English carl music was part 95 00:06:34,543 --> 00:06:37,876 of my background, hymns anthems and things. 96 00:06:37,943 --> 00:06:40,676 I loved church organ stuff 'cause it was 97 00:06:40,743 --> 00:06:44,376 so powerful and umm yeah I'm sure I tried to 98 00:06:44,443 --> 00:06:46,543 translate some of those ideas into Yes. 99 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:55,943 * Music * 100 00:06:56,010 --> 00:06:57,376 Bill Bruford: The whole point of Yes was so that we 101 00:06:57,443 --> 00:06:59,110 could be a small orchestra. 102 00:06:59,143 --> 00:07:02,110 However that was in the DNA of the day, 103 00:07:02,143 --> 00:07:04,943 that's what rock and pop was all about. 104 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:06,943 All we wanted to do was sound a bit different. 105 00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:08,976 You know you can come all these art school guys from 106 00:07:09,110 --> 00:07:13,110 universities and colleges which was exploding, fueled by ideas 107 00:07:13,176 --> 00:07:17,943 of other aspects of art, surrealism particularly Dahley, 108 00:07:18,010 --> 00:07:21,110 Herman Hesse all the books of the day. 109 00:07:21,143 --> 00:07:24,110 All that stuff is being brought in by the so-called intelligencia. 110 00:07:24,143 --> 00:07:27,476 Chris: You know we were quite intellectual as people in 111 00:07:27,543 --> 00:07:30,543 different ways and so all of those talents 112 00:07:30,610 --> 00:07:33,510 kind of combined into what Yes became. 113 00:07:33,576 --> 00:07:37,576 * Music * 114 00:07:37,643 --> 00:07:39,710 >> The British prog rock bands made an enormous impact 115 00:07:39,776 --> 00:07:42,710 in the early '70s by expanding the instrumentation 116 00:07:42,776 --> 00:07:45,676 and sonic palette of rock music and this has been 117 00:07:45,743 --> 00:07:49,110 influential on many contemporary metal bands. 118 00:07:49,110 --> 00:07:52,343 But metal is also dark and heavy, so I'm meeting with 119 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:54,876 Michael Giles, the original drummer for King Crimson 120 00:07:54,943 --> 00:07:57,843 to try to understand if there's a connection between 121 00:07:57,910 --> 00:08:00,610 the heaviness of prog rock and heavy metal. 122 00:08:01,876 --> 00:08:03,510 Sam: I was reading some archival reviews. 123 00:08:03,576 --> 00:08:07,310 Words like overwhelming and evil were coming up. 124 00:08:07,376 --> 00:08:10,410 Michael Giles: I remember the word evil being used. 125 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:13,110 Some of it does sound evil I must admit myself 126 00:08:13,110 --> 00:08:17,943 but musically we wanted to do something different, 127 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:22,110 to play music we had never heard before. 128 00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:24,376 In terms of progression you could say that the Who in the 129 00:08:24,443 --> 00:08:27,710 early '60s, Led Zeppelin were all doing there thing, 130 00:08:27,776 --> 00:08:32,743 what's the point of copying them or doing anything similar, 131 00:08:32,810 --> 00:08:35,010 the dark side is always attractive isn't it? 132 00:08:35,110 --> 00:08:51,676 * Music * 133 00:08:51,743 --> 00:08:53,610 Jerry Ewing: There was a very hard-hitting side to 134 00:08:53,676 --> 00:08:57,010 what King Crimson did, it is proto thrash metal. 135 00:08:57,110 --> 00:09:01,643 It is so heavy and brutal that is why I think they were such 136 00:09:01,710 --> 00:09:04,543 an influence on Metallica, I mean you speak to guys like 137 00:09:04,610 --> 00:09:08,110 Kirk Hammett and these guys are still in awe of these musicians. 138 00:09:08,176 --> 00:09:11,510 Kirk Hammett: King Crimson were the first to really explore 139 00:09:11,576 --> 00:09:17,010 things like odd time changes and weird long arrangements 140 00:09:17,110 --> 00:09:19,643 that didn't rely on the classic first chorus 141 00:09:19,710 --> 00:09:23,143 first chorus bridge sort of thing and a lot of the chords 142 00:09:23,210 --> 00:09:26,110 they used were chords that you weren't really hearing too 143 00:09:26,143 --> 00:09:29,543 much back then, they really went out on a limb. 144 00:09:29,610 --> 00:09:36,943 * Music * 145 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:40,410 I suppose the power of dark hard edged music would be 146 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:42,910 something that both progressive rockers and 147 00:09:42,976 --> 00:09:48,476 heavy metalers would want to get into. It's mostly about power 148 00:09:48,543 --> 00:09:55,476 and volume and scaring the life out of people. (laughs) 149 00:09:55,543 --> 00:10:00,043 * Music * 150 00:10:00,110 --> 00:10:02,610 >> British progressive rock bands like Crimson were clearly 151 00:10:02,676 --> 00:10:07,176 heavy for their time but still these bands were not heavy metal. 152 00:10:07,243 --> 00:10:09,743 So now that I have a better understanding of prog rocks 153 00:10:09,810 --> 00:10:13,176 overall sonic contribution, how did the sound of 154 00:10:13,243 --> 00:10:15,943 progressive music find it's way into heavy metal? 155 00:10:16,010 --> 00:10:20,943 * Music * 156 00:10:22,810 --> 00:10:38,276 * Music * 157 00:10:38,343 --> 00:10:39,943 Sam: When I was a teenager I was obsessed with the 158 00:10:40,010 --> 00:10:44,343 really heavy styles of metal like thrash and death metal, 159 00:10:44,410 --> 00:10:46,476 but there was one band that started to expand 160 00:10:46,543 --> 00:10:50,176 my horizons beyond those styles and that was Rush. 161 00:10:50,243 --> 00:10:55,676 * Music * 162 00:10:55,743 --> 00:10:58,876 They had the heaviness of metal but they also had all of 163 00:10:58,943 --> 00:11:02,576 these other sounds I had never really heard before. 164 00:11:02,643 --> 00:11:05,676 So I've come to Cleveland, the city that broke Rush and 165 00:11:05,743 --> 00:11:08,710 I wanna ask them why were they inspired to combine 166 00:11:08,776 --> 00:11:11,943 heaviness with other more progressive elements. 167 00:11:12,010 --> 00:11:17,943 * Music * 168 00:11:18,010 --> 00:11:18,743 Sam: Hi there. 169 00:11:18,810 --> 00:11:20,410 Geddy Lee: Hi Sam. 170 00:11:20,476 --> 00:11:23,576 Sam: I wanna start with your progressive rock influences, 171 00:11:23,643 --> 00:11:25,643 tell me about how these bands influenced you. 172 00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:31,443 Geddy Lee: Well I think it kind of began with Yes and Genesis, 173 00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:34,876 they were not afraid to put challenging influences in their music. 174 00:11:34,943 --> 00:11:37,410 There were these complex melodies, there were these 175 00:11:37,476 --> 00:11:40,510 time changes, you know not just texture not just melody 176 00:11:40,576 --> 00:11:42,476 but drama but that's the way it appealed to me 177 00:11:42,543 --> 00:11:48,776 and that sent me on this kind of journey trying to emulate 178 00:11:48,843 --> 00:11:52,310 that as a young musician for sure. It's interesting because 179 00:11:52,376 --> 00:11:56,176 even though we love progressive music we also love to rock. 180 00:11:56,276 --> 00:12:05,276 * Music * 181 00:12:05,343 --> 00:12:06,943 Alex Lifeson: I admired those progressive bands, 182 00:12:07,010 --> 00:12:10,210 I certainly listened to them and got stuff from them 183 00:12:10,276 --> 00:12:12,810 but for me it was more of those 184 00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:15,743 heavy hard rock bands that really appealed to me. 185 00:12:15,810 --> 00:12:18,810 For example, when the first Zeppelin album came out, 186 00:12:18,876 --> 00:12:21,510 you know it had the weight and the riffs were great 187 00:12:21,576 --> 00:12:24,743 and the playing was loose and free you know. 188 00:12:24,810 --> 00:12:27,810 That's always been a thing that's knocked me out about 189 00:12:27,876 --> 00:12:30,943 Jimmy Page the way he just played so freely. 190 00:12:31,010 --> 00:12:34,010 Neil Peart: We came together at that nexus where all liked the 191 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:36,943 same music so that was an easy thing to combine specifically 192 00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:40,110 those early years we were trying things and learning things, 193 00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:43,410 experimenting as broadly as we could such that that whole 194 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:48,210 '74 to 1980 period was really our kindergarten. 195 00:12:48,276 --> 00:12:50,376 Jeff Wagner: They were kinda toying with the new sound 196 00:12:50,443 --> 00:12:52,643 of the day which was this ultra really heavy 197 00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:54,676 hard rock that doesn't have name yet, 198 00:12:54,743 --> 00:12:57,376 and they're also grabbing from prog rock so it's probably 199 00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:01,476 the first real significant bridging those 2 worlds, 200 00:13:01,543 --> 00:13:04,610 and then bam you've got Rush and got maybe prog metal. 201 00:13:04,676 --> 00:13:13,576 * Music * 202 00:13:13,643 --> 00:13:16,710 >> In the mid '70s Rush set out to combine hard rock and 203 00:13:16,776 --> 00:13:19,843 progressive music in a totally new way and beginning 204 00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:22,843 with the alums 'Fly by Night' and 'Caress of Steel' 205 00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:25,210 they created there first prog rock epics. 206 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:28,776 * Music * 207 00:13:28,843 --> 00:13:32,243 Sam: That transition from the first record 'Caress of Steel' 208 00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:34,776 how was the bands sound shifting? 209 00:13:34,843 --> 00:13:37,510 Alex: Well you know I think we started writing longer pieces, 210 00:13:37,576 --> 00:13:41,576 more complex arrangements so there were greater 211 00:13:41,643 --> 00:13:44,643 dynamic shifts where you could do something 212 00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:48,310 that was a little out of the ordinary I suppose. 213 00:13:48,376 --> 00:13:50,310 Terry Brown: 'Caress of Steel' was a dark sounding record 214 00:13:50,376 --> 00:13:53,676 and subject matter was a lot darker, 215 00:13:53,743 --> 00:13:58,243 it was complex and the story line was quite long. 216 00:13:58,310 --> 00:14:00,776 For me it was a step forward I mean it was a challenging 217 00:14:00,843 --> 00:14:03,943 piece to do, it was almost like a rock opera. 218 00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:16,543 * Music * 219 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:19,010 Jeff: Caress of Steel just had this story book quality to it 220 00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:21,876 in terms of it was like you were reading a book by chapter, 221 00:14:21,943 --> 00:14:23,643 so that was to me was mastering the art 222 00:14:23,710 --> 00:14:26,610 of writing the long form epic. 223 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:29,843 Geddy: Ultimately even though I liked the music a lot, 224 00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:33,976 the style was still too experimental but somehow all 225 00:14:34,110 --> 00:14:37,643 that imagining what we should sound like all came together 226 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:41,643 with 2112, it was very much felt like our first record. 227 00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:53,276 * Music * 228 00:14:53,343 --> 00:14:56,543 Sam: Is 2112 the record that it is because you had to 229 00:14:56,610 --> 00:15:00,310 some extent harnessed and improved on what you had been 230 00:15:00,376 --> 00:15:02,710 trying to acheive on the previous 2 records? 231 00:15:02,776 --> 00:15:06,243 Alex: With 2112 I think we felt more confident with the format. 232 00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:09,310 Doing a whole side dedicated to one concept, 233 00:15:09,376 --> 00:15:12,443 so for me that's the first record I really feel like 234 00:15:12,510 --> 00:15:14,876 we were getting our own sound. 235 00:15:14,943 --> 00:15:17,410 Neil: It's the anger in there the people responded to, 236 00:15:17,476 --> 00:15:20,243 we were so frustrated with the whole music business trying 237 00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:23,310 to tell us what to do, urging us to be more commercial and all 238 00:15:23,376 --> 00:15:27,476 that and it was all about no this is what were going to do. 239 00:15:27,543 --> 00:15:30,910 The music is visceral and it's demanding to be heard. 240 00:15:30,976 --> 00:15:33,110 I think there's a real commitment to the sound and 241 00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:36,410 that reached our first real audience of any size. 242 00:15:36,476 --> 00:15:47,676 * Music * 243 00:15:47,743 --> 00:15:52,343 Sam: In 1976, how is this album different from everything 244 00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:54,310 else that was going on in rock music? 245 00:15:54,376 --> 00:15:56,376 Jeff: I think because if you listen to the Genesis records 246 00:15:56,443 --> 00:15:59,943 or Yes records from that era, all of these prog rock bands 247 00:16:00,110 --> 00:16:03,910 were sort of at a peak or were peaking out, 248 00:16:03,976 --> 00:16:07,310 and Rush were not only continually climbing, 249 00:16:07,376 --> 00:16:09,643 I think they sort of provided a heavier take on what 250 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:12,243 these bands were doing so that the people into Zeppelin, 251 00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:14,776 into Sabbath had this other place to go. 252 00:16:14,843 --> 00:16:17,810 Jerry Ewing: In the same that Sergeant Pepper did, to Yes and 253 00:16:17,876 --> 00:16:22,476 Lincoln Palmer in Crimson, 2112 was the album that showed metal 254 00:16:22,543 --> 00:16:25,243 bands had an interest in exploring a more progressive 255 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:29,476 side they could sonically, and because Rush had that hard edge 256 00:16:29,543 --> 00:16:33,343 to them it opened up a whole new world to the metal heads. 257 00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:46,443 * Music * 258 00:16:46,510 --> 00:16:49,476 >> The Rush albums 2112, Farewell to Kings and 259 00:16:49,543 --> 00:16:52,343 Hemispheres firmly established Rush as one of the 260 00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:56,510 all-time greats of Progressive music, but by the late '70s 261 00:16:56,576 --> 00:16:58,576 the bands sound started to change. 262 00:16:58,643 --> 00:17:14,976 * Music * 263 00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:18,010 Sam: In the classical definition of progressive rock 264 00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:20,843 an album like Permanent Waves seems to be a step away 265 00:17:20,910 --> 00:17:23,810 from that much more traditional approach. 266 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:27,276 Geddy: Yeah. To me that was becoming a stereotype. 267 00:17:27,343 --> 00:17:29,610 So I said it's much more interesting to try and take 268 00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:34,110 that idea of being progressive and not do it in a way 269 00:17:34,143 --> 00:17:37,310 that people expect you to be progressive. 270 00:17:37,376 --> 00:17:40,643 We thought ok lets do individual songs and 271 00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:44,310 each one can be a mini concept unto itself. 272 00:17:44,376 --> 00:17:47,276 To me that was Rush progressing and not just staying 273 00:17:47,343 --> 00:17:50,443 in the same mold we had cast on 2112. 274 00:17:50,510 --> 00:17:52,476 Neil: We were just trying to find greater economy in 275 00:17:52,543 --> 00:17:55,676 our music, still have a bunch of parts in there and 276 00:17:55,743 --> 00:17:58,810 some hard playing but in a shorter format. 277 00:17:58,876 --> 00:18:03,876 So we went from 12 minutes down to 8 minutes down to 5. 278 00:18:03,943 --> 00:18:07,710 Hard to get much more below that for us. 279 00:18:07,776 --> 00:18:10,376 Jerry: The thing about Rush is even when they wrote shorter 280 00:18:10,443 --> 00:18:13,310 material, the way they did it, the way they clearly thought 281 00:18:13,376 --> 00:18:15,576 about putting it together, it's still progressive. 282 00:18:15,643 --> 00:18:17,943 So this is why they occupy this a very unique 283 00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:20,276 sonic position in the bigger scheme of things. 284 00:18:20,343 --> 00:18:34,810 * Music * 285 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:37,710 Sam: And yet there was a bit of a backlash, the fans that 286 00:18:37,776 --> 00:18:41,243 had loved the expansive songs weren't necessarily 287 00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:44,210 all on board with say the Spirit of Radio. 288 00:18:44,276 --> 00:18:47,276 Geddy: You know, I guess what I'm saying is there's lots of 289 00:18:47,343 --> 00:18:54,243 reasons that fans have turned away from us at certain points 290 00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:59,410 in our career and there's nothing we can do about that. 291 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:12,476 * Music * 292 00:19:12,543 --> 00:19:15,310 >> By the early '80s Rush and the British prog rock bands 293 00:19:15,376 --> 00:19:18,110 had abandoned their iconic heavy sound 294 00:19:18,143 --> 00:19:21,410 so with the forefathers of the genre having moved on where 295 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:24,276 would the next generation of progressive metal come from. 296 00:19:24,343 --> 00:19:28,176 * Music * 297 00:19:28,243 --> 00:19:31,543 (Fans cheering) 298 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:46,910 * Music * 299 00:19:46,976 --> 00:19:49,910 >> In the early eighties as Rush and other progressive bands had 300 00:19:49,976 --> 00:19:54,276 moved away from their heavy sound, heavy metal was exploding. 301 00:19:54,343 --> 00:19:57,243 Bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Van Halen were 302 00:19:57,310 --> 00:19:59,943 pushing music in a more aggressive direction and 303 00:20:00,110 --> 00:20:03,343 a metal culture was being born and the first band from 304 00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:05,443 this new generation of heavy metal to embrace 305 00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:08,376 progressive music was Seattle's Queensryche. 306 00:20:08,443 --> 00:20:11,376 * Music * 307 00:20:11,443 --> 00:20:13,310 Sam: So I've come to suburban Seattle and I'm standing 308 00:20:13,376 --> 00:20:16,210 outside a roller rink where many bands in this area 309 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:18,510 used to play back in the eighties because 310 00:20:18,576 --> 00:20:20,510 I want to find out how did Queensryche 311 00:20:20,576 --> 00:20:23,110 metalize progressive music? 312 00:20:23,176 --> 00:20:26,143 Sam: What was the kind of band you wanted to create? 313 00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:27,710 Where were you at that time? 314 00:20:27,776 --> 00:20:30,276 Geoff Tate: Well we didn't really have a model in mind. 315 00:20:30,343 --> 00:20:34,110 We more or less had a philosophy which was no limits, you know, 316 00:20:34,176 --> 00:20:36,510 whatever we could imagine that's what we will do 317 00:20:36,576 --> 00:20:38,710 and we won't let people dictate to us 318 00:20:38,776 --> 00:20:41,210 what we should be or what we shouldn't be. 319 00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:44,710 Chris Degarmo: We knew what we wanted to be but we didn't 320 00:20:44,776 --> 00:20:48,110 really know how to be it necessarily yet. 321 00:20:48,176 --> 00:20:50,776 I don't really know that innovation had arrived in the 322 00:20:50,843 --> 00:20:53,810 Queensryche story necessarily yet at that time but the 323 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:57,276 British wave of heavy metal was definitely making an impact 324 00:20:57,343 --> 00:21:01,210 and I would also draw back even to groups like 325 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:04,576 Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, so there was kind of a 326 00:21:04,643 --> 00:21:07,743 progressive pop angle that influenced us. 327 00:21:07,810 --> 00:21:10,810 Geoff: We brought in everything from classical to jazz to pop 328 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:14,510 to rock, you know, everyone would bring in records and say, 329 00:21:14,576 --> 00:21:17,576 "hey listen to this, can you relate to this, look what he's doing here" 330 00:21:17,643 --> 00:21:19,210 and so that was our starting point. 331 00:21:19,276 --> 00:21:31,710 * Music * 332 00:21:31,776 --> 00:21:34,276 Jeff Wagner: What they were was a very traditional metal band 333 00:21:34,343 --> 00:21:38,710 who sort of became progressive, in the same way as Rush did 334 00:21:38,776 --> 00:21:41,343 and they really have visionary kind of ideas that 335 00:21:41,410 --> 00:21:44,476 made them stand out so much from the rest of the metal pack. 336 00:21:44,543 --> 00:21:48,176 They were certainly a bit of intelligencia leader in that sense. 337 00:21:48,243 --> 00:21:50,210 Jerry Ewing: Just remember Queensryche's early stuff was 338 00:21:50,276 --> 00:21:52,576 still very very heavy, I mean it was only when they really went 339 00:21:52,643 --> 00:21:56,476 conceptional with 'Operation Mindcrime' that they went from 340 00:21:56,543 --> 00:21:59,710 being like just another American metal band to like, 341 00:21:59,776 --> 00:22:03,276 wow, they've done something quite pivotal here. 342 00:22:03,343 --> 00:22:22,143 * Music * 343 00:22:22,210 --> 00:22:25,743 >> In 1988 Queensryche released 'Operation Mindcrime', 344 00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:27,610 a record that was heralded as the most important 345 00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:31,276 progressive metal album since Rush's '2112'. 346 00:22:31,343 --> 00:22:34,476 So I'm meeting with the album's producer Peter Collins to find 347 00:22:34,543 --> 00:22:37,710 out what was so significant about the sound of this record. 348 00:22:37,776 --> 00:22:40,643 Sam: When it came to hearing Queensryche's music 349 00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:43,443 for the first time, what were your impressions? 350 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:46,376 Peter Collins: I loved the musicality of it, 351 00:22:46,443 --> 00:22:51,610 it stood apart from just sort of basic headbanger stuff to me, 352 00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:54,310 also the fact that this was going to be a concept record 353 00:22:54,376 --> 00:22:57,676 caught my imagination, the story of a young guy that gets 354 00:22:57,743 --> 00:23:01,710 caught up in a terrorist type movement and how he's initially 355 00:23:01,776 --> 00:23:04,576 excited about being and tries to get out and can't, I mean 356 00:23:04,643 --> 00:23:07,710 the whole concept had a kind of magic to it, it was extremely 357 00:23:07,776 --> 00:23:11,410 cohesive well put together and a lot of kids could relate to it. 358 00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:14,443 Geoff: The thrust of the exercise really was to create 359 00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:17,310 a concept record, you know, one that was modeled 360 00:23:17,376 --> 00:23:19,476 after what had come before. 361 00:23:19,543 --> 00:23:22,310 'The Wall', 'Tommy', 'Quadrophenia', taking those 362 00:23:22,376 --> 00:23:27,010 albums as models and kind of giving it our twist. 363 00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:35,676 * Music * 364 00:23:35,743 --> 00:23:37,676 Sam: What was the reaction to 'Operation Mindcrime' 365 00:23:37,743 --> 00:23:40,176 in the rock community? 366 00:23:40,243 --> 00:23:44,110 Derek Oliver: I think it sent a shock wave through the heavy 367 00:23:44,143 --> 00:23:48,376 metal genre, that record was the peak in Queensryche's history 368 00:23:48,443 --> 00:23:50,410 and development, although commercially obviously 369 00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:53,010 they enjoyed far more success later on. 370 00:23:53,110 --> 00:24:11,210 * Music * 371 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:13,143 >> On the heels of 'Operation Mindcrime' 372 00:24:13,210 --> 00:24:16,310 Queensryche began to streamline their sound and started to 373 00:24:16,376 --> 00:24:19,776 appeal to a broader audience leaving a void for a band 374 00:24:19,843 --> 00:24:22,343 to pick up the progressive metal mantle. 375 00:24:22,410 --> 00:24:28,510 * Music * 376 00:24:28,576 --> 00:24:30,576 >> So I've traveled back to Boston to meet Dream Theater's 377 00:24:30,643 --> 00:24:34,176 founding member Mike Portnoy to talk about their musical roots 378 00:24:34,243 --> 00:24:37,476 and how they contributed to the evolution of progressive metal. 379 00:24:37,543 --> 00:24:39,710 Sam: Tell me the story of how you came to Berklee and 380 00:24:39,776 --> 00:24:42,143 why you wanted to do it in the first place? 381 00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:46,243 Mike Portnoy: Well when I was around 16 or 17 I just became 382 00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:50,110 immersed in Rush's music and then from that point started 383 00:24:50,176 --> 00:24:53,543 backtracking and discovering the rest of progressive rock and 384 00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:56,510 I just wanted to be the best drummer I could be, I wanted to 385 00:24:56,576 --> 00:24:59,510 learn as much as I could about music, theory and harmony 386 00:24:59,576 --> 00:25:03,443 and Berklee College of Music was 'the' music school. 387 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:05,376 John Petrucci: But soon as you go to Berklee you're immersed in 388 00:25:05,443 --> 00:25:08,343 an ocean of musicians, everybody with a gig bag strapped over 389 00:25:08,410 --> 00:25:11,776 their shoulder but it's a jazz school really so you definitely 390 00:25:11,843 --> 00:25:15,176 notice a divide, like you got the rockers and the jazzers 391 00:25:15,243 --> 00:25:17,676 and the rockers were out numbered for sure. 392 00:25:17,743 --> 00:25:21,443 Mike: You know I definitely stood out like a sore thumb and 393 00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:23,676 then once we formed Dream Theater with John Myung and 394 00:25:23,743 --> 00:25:27,676 John Petrucci, there we were in this practice room at Berklee 395 00:25:27,743 --> 00:25:29,676 while everyone else was playing jazz standards, 396 00:25:29,743 --> 00:25:32,010 we were jamming metal and prog tunes. 397 00:25:32,110 --> 00:25:44,143 * Music * 398 00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:46,110 Jerry: In simple terms if Rush were Led Zeppelin 399 00:25:46,176 --> 00:25:49,843 meets Yes, Dream Theater was Metallica meets Yes. 400 00:25:49,910 --> 00:25:53,310 John: Yah Metallica meets Yes, it's like Yes' instrumentation 401 00:25:53,376 --> 00:25:56,476 and types of songs, the different lengths and stories 402 00:25:56,543 --> 00:26:01,276 but it's Metallica's metal, you know sensibility and fast beats, 403 00:26:01,343 --> 00:26:03,610 hard drumming, heavy guitar riffs, all that good stuff. 404 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:15,210 * Music * 405 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:16,810 Sam: This is the early nineties, this is in the middle of the 406 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:20,110 grunge explosion, virtuosity, complex arrangements, 407 00:26:20,143 --> 00:26:21,643 couldn't be more out of fashion. 408 00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:24,110 Why did you want to sign this band? 409 00:26:24,176 --> 00:26:25,710 Derek Shulman: They were amazing actually, there was something 410 00:26:25,776 --> 00:26:29,510 that I hadn't heard musically for a long time, they were 411 00:26:29,576 --> 00:26:33,443 fantastically arranged tracks, well played so even though at 412 00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:36,410 the time it was grunge and it was all lumberjack shirts 413 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,243 everywhere, I knew that when a movement and the people who 414 00:26:39,310 --> 00:26:42,576 follow that movement go one way there becomes a huge void in the 415 00:26:42,643 --> 00:26:46,243 marketplace for a kind of music that still very popular and 416 00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:50,510 Dream Theater led fans of metal, fans of progressive music 417 00:26:50,576 --> 00:26:52,543 to come together and understand that 418 00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:54,676 they weren't mutually exclusive. 419 00:26:54,743 --> 00:26:56,510 * Music * 420 00:26:56,576 --> 00:26:58,643 Mike: It opened up the floodgates for a whole new 421 00:26:58,710 --> 00:27:04,510 generation of like progressive metal muzo oriented bands, 422 00:27:04,576 --> 00:27:06,210 you know for better or for worse, I don't know. 423 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:12,210 * Music * 424 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:14,510 >> In the wake of Dream Theater's success, there was an 425 00:27:14,576 --> 00:27:18,176 explosion of bands in the 1990's that helped establish prog metal 426 00:27:18,243 --> 00:27:23,143 as a recognized musical style but there would be one 90's band 427 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:25,343 that would completely transform the development 428 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:27,143 of the progressive metal sub-genre. 429 00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:38,876 * Music * 430 00:27:38,943 --> 00:27:51,543 * Music * 431 00:27:51,610 --> 00:27:54,010 >> In the early 90's grunge became the world's 432 00:27:54,110 --> 00:27:57,610 most popular hard rock style and grunge bands created a sound 433 00:27:57,676 --> 00:28:01,210 that was the furthest thing from progressive metal and then a 434 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:03,776 band came along that was embraced by both the progressive 435 00:28:03,843 --> 00:28:07,476 and the alternative crowds however Tool is notoriously 436 00:28:07,543 --> 00:28:10,143 elusive and I wasn't able to secure an interview 437 00:28:10,210 --> 00:28:13,110 with the band so to get some perspective on Tool's place 438 00:28:13,176 --> 00:28:15,576 in the prog metal story, I've tracked down their 439 00:28:15,643 --> 00:28:18,576 Grammy award winning producer David Bottrill. 440 00:28:18,643 --> 00:28:22,176 Sam: So even though Tool played Lollapalooza, they are outsiders 441 00:28:22,243 --> 00:28:26,110 enough to be completely different than everything else 442 00:28:26,176 --> 00:28:28,276 on the Lollapalooza bill and to be completely different 443 00:28:28,343 --> 00:28:30,576 than anything else that's going on around them. 444 00:28:30,643 --> 00:28:32,376 David Bottrill: I think in every generation there is a band 445 00:28:32,443 --> 00:28:36,376 that's able to do things by their own rules and not have 446 00:28:36,443 --> 00:28:39,210 to do the same kind of promotional techniques 447 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:41,443 as other bands and they get away with it. 448 00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:44,643 Tool's that band for the alternative generation but at 449 00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:47,943 the same time they were never for me an alternative band. 450 00:28:48,010 --> 00:28:51,010 Sam: What do you think is unique about Tool 's music 451 00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:53,243 in this story of progressive rock? 452 00:28:53,310 --> 00:28:56,510 John: I mean Tool you listen to it and it's something that 453 00:28:56,576 --> 00:29:00,543 you're drawn into by the darkness and the mystery of it 454 00:29:00,610 --> 00:29:03,110 and that's something that a lot of progressive music has in 455 00:29:03,176 --> 00:29:06,543 common but whereas Dream Theater and Queensryche it's about that 456 00:29:06,610 --> 00:29:10,210 majesty, the over drama and Tool is doing it in this 457 00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:14,610 sort of dark intense way that in so many ways is a 458 00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:17,543 hundred million times cooler than the other way. 459 00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:20,776 David: With what Tool does it's less about look at the musician, 460 00:29:20,843 --> 00:29:24,543 what the musician's ability is, it's look at the sculpting of 461 00:29:24,610 --> 00:29:28,310 the piece of music that we have written and played. 462 00:29:28,376 --> 00:29:30,610 Like they're virtuoso players but they're virtuoso players 463 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:33,643 in that it's not so much how many notes they can do or 464 00:29:33,710 --> 00:29:36,476 even the order really, a lot of it is the tone 465 00:29:36,543 --> 00:29:39,276 and the character of each note. 466 00:29:39,343 --> 00:29:41,410 Jerry: They were hugely important in terms of 467 00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:45,010 progressive music because they opened up the left field side 468 00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:49,110 the indie side of music. That whole strand of progressive 469 00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:52,643 music, the kind of indie stroke left field post rock side, 470 00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:55,676 it now falls under the prog banner and it would never 471 00:29:55,743 --> 00:29:58,010 have happened if it wasn't for Tool's success. 472 00:29:58,110 --> 00:29:59,376 Sam: They opened up another side of the brain. 473 00:29:59,443 --> 00:30:01,176 Jerry: They opened up another door. 474 00:30:01,243 --> 00:30:07,743 * Music * 475 00:30:07,810 --> 00:30:09,743 >> While Tool was taking prog metal in a distinctly 476 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:14,110 darker direction, metal bands in the 1990's started to combine 477 00:30:14,176 --> 00:30:17,476 brutality with a progressive sensibility and it was 478 00:30:17,543 --> 00:30:19,710 Sweden's Meshuggah that turned prog metal 479 00:30:19,776 --> 00:30:22,343 into a rhythmic metallic juggernaut. 480 00:30:23,743 --> 00:30:26,343 Sam: So the kinship you share with Tool is that 481 00:30:26,410 --> 00:30:29,943 one of the key elements for your adventurousness 482 00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:32,210 in the music is rhythmic. Can you give me a sense 483 00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:35,743 of why creating interesting rhythm was so important? 484 00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:39,243 Tomas Haake: It's just, I don't know, when you find that really 485 00:30:39,310 --> 00:30:41,576 cool rhythm, it's almost like a tribal thing, if you hear a 486 00:30:41,643 --> 00:30:45,610 cool beat most people will pick that up even if they don't 487 00:30:45,676 --> 00:30:49,210 like the song or whatever so regardless of what's going on, 488 00:30:49,276 --> 00:30:51,543 you still got that thing, that's just kind of keeping 489 00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:53,976 it going you know, you can actually dance to it. 490 00:30:54,043 --> 00:31:03,143 * Music * 491 00:31:03,210 --> 00:31:06,710 John: They've taken the whole idea of rhythmical 492 00:31:06,776 --> 00:31:09,610 adventures beyond anything that anybody has done. 493 00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:13,710 The stuff is going by that's just so interlocked and complex 494 00:31:13,776 --> 00:31:18,376 rhythmically that these guys have to be math geniuses. 495 00:31:18,443 --> 00:31:20,276 Tomas: All the instruments basically in this band are 496 00:31:20,343 --> 00:31:24,543 percussive instruments even down to the vocals which are also 497 00:31:24,610 --> 00:31:27,710 very kind of charted out because it's not a melodic instrument, 498 00:31:27,776 --> 00:31:30,110 it's just basically full out screaming. 499 00:31:30,176 --> 00:31:39,010 * Music * 500 00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:40,610 Sam: And the guitar approach of Meshuggah with the 501 00:31:40,676 --> 00:31:44,476 sort of floating jazzy dissident lines is a very signature part 502 00:31:44,543 --> 00:31:47,210 of their sound, can you tell me about that? 503 00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:51,343 Jon Weiderhorn: Meshuggah have a strong foundation in jazz but 504 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:55,010 not the conventional jazz of a Charlie Parker or even a 505 00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:58,010 Miles Davis, it's more like an Ornette Coleman slap to 506 00:31:58,110 --> 00:32:02,276 the jaw, it's more of his free form insanity, who knows where 507 00:32:02,343 --> 00:32:07,343 it comes from exactly but there is this interest in presenting 508 00:32:07,410 --> 00:32:10,376 music in a new way and approaching metal in a new way 509 00:32:10,443 --> 00:32:12,710 and you have players who are able to do it. 510 00:32:12,776 --> 00:32:16,176 We definitely felt we were on to something that intrigued us you 511 00:32:16,243 --> 00:32:18,643 know and of course the music has changed over the years but we 512 00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:22,243 still see ourselves as a niche band like we're never gonna sell 513 00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:24,910 a million records we know that for a fact because we don't 514 00:32:24,976 --> 00:32:28,443 wanna write the kind of music that usually does that, but yeah 515 00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:31,676 it only took 20 years for people to star digging our music. 516 00:32:31,743 --> 00:32:43,610 * Music * 517 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:46,243 >> Meshuggah wasn't the only '90s underground metal band 518 00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:49,576 that was infusing progressiveness with extreme metal. 519 00:32:49,643 --> 00:32:52,110 New Jerseys' Dillinger Escape Plan was creating a sound 520 00:32:52,110 --> 00:32:55,110 so complex it was labeled math metal. 521 00:32:55,143 --> 00:33:01,376 * Music * 522 00:33:01,443 --> 00:33:04,510 Sam: I remember the first time I saw them back in 2000, 523 00:33:04,576 --> 00:33:07,110 not only did they not sound like metal to me 524 00:33:07,176 --> 00:33:09,476 but they barely even sounded like music. 525 00:33:09,543 --> 00:33:12,443 What inspired them to create this insane sound? 526 00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:22,243 * Music * 527 00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:24,610 Ben Weinman: Well Dillinger itself was us giving up 528 00:33:24,676 --> 00:33:26,643 on being musicians for a living. 529 00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:29,343 It was us giving up on caring what people thought. 530 00:33:29,410 --> 00:33:31,976 We really stopped trying to appeal to a market 531 00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:33,543 and a certain fan base. 532 00:33:33,610 --> 00:33:36,276 It was really us saying we're never going to fit in, 533 00:33:36,343 --> 00:33:39,110 we're never going to musicians for a living so 534 00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:41,010 it's really just one situation where someone is doing 535 00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:44,210 something they love and it happens to work out because 536 00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:47,110 they love it it's a perfect example of that. 537 00:33:47,176 --> 00:33:49,376 Jeff Wagner: The level of aggression they play with 538 00:33:49,443 --> 00:33:51,376 makes them instantly appeal to metal fans. 539 00:33:51,443 --> 00:33:53,376 They kind of take what Meshuggah is doing 540 00:33:53,443 --> 00:33:55,876 but they went farther as a progressive band. 541 00:33:55,943 --> 00:34:00,910 They create an art out of utter aggressive insanity. 542 00:34:00,976 --> 00:34:12,376 * Music * 543 00:34:12,443 --> 00:34:14,276 Matt Jacobson: The first time we saw them play we drove 544 00:34:14,343 --> 00:34:17,810 to Redding, Pennsylvania and Dillinger Escape plan 545 00:34:17,876 --> 00:34:21,176 performed in kind of a basement kind of a garage. 546 00:34:21,243 --> 00:34:24,443 They were just losing they're minds you know they were they 547 00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:27,276 were moving around and swinging the guitar in the air. 548 00:34:27,343 --> 00:34:30,143 The singer would jump into the audience and scream 549 00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:34,176 in your face, it was totally extreme and charged with energy 550 00:34:34,243 --> 00:34:37,176 so we walked out of there and one of my co-workers said 551 00:34:37,243 --> 00:34:40,976 'what'd you think?' and I said 'we have to sign that band.' 552 00:34:41,110 --> 00:34:43,443 I mean that was... pfft. 553 00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:45,610 I remember the first time I had ever seen Dillinger 554 00:34:45,676 --> 00:34:48,676 live and it looked like they were really trying 555 00:34:48,743 --> 00:34:51,576 to deliberately hurt the crowd with the guitar you know 556 00:34:51,643 --> 00:34:54,110 smashing the heads and necks of the guitars into the people 557 00:34:54,176 --> 00:34:56,343 in the front row and kind of poking it in there 558 00:34:56,410 --> 00:34:59,410 and I had never seen anything like that before. 559 00:34:59,476 --> 00:35:03,276 I think Dillinger is probably one of the worlds most dangerous bands. 560 00:35:03,343 --> 00:35:08,210 * Music * 561 00:35:08,276 --> 00:35:10,110 Not only did we make things hard for ourselves 562 00:35:10,110 --> 00:35:13,110 physically, technically however you wanna put it but we were 563 00:35:13,143 --> 00:35:15,210 making things challenging and difficult and uncomfortable 564 00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:17,276 for the people who are experiencing it as well. 565 00:35:17,343 --> 00:35:19,510 We wanted to take people out of there comfort zone, we wanted to 566 00:35:19,576 --> 00:35:21,110 take ourselves out of our comfort zone 567 00:35:21,176 --> 00:35:23,410 'cause no great art ever comes from comfort. 568 00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:26,410 * Music * 569 00:35:31,943 --> 00:35:43,210 * Music * 570 00:35:43,276 --> 00:35:45,543 >> By the early 2000's progressive metal had 571 00:35:45,610 --> 00:35:49,276 become so extreme and complex that it's links to pioneers like 572 00:35:49,343 --> 00:35:53,443 Genesis and Rush seems to be lost, but this all changed with 573 00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:56,910 the arrival of Atlanta's Mastodon who reconnected metal 574 00:35:56,976 --> 00:35:59,110 with the sounds of early prog rock. 575 00:35:59,110 --> 00:36:09,143 * Music * 576 00:36:09,243 --> 00:36:11,110 Sam: So you guys formed in '99, 577 00:36:11,176 --> 00:36:14,110 what was the climate like for metal and heavy music 578 00:36:14,143 --> 00:36:15,810 when you guys when you guys started out? 579 00:36:15,876 --> 00:36:17,443 Brann: As far as metal was concerned I think it was still 580 00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:19,310 sort of a bad word you know what I mean. 581 00:36:19,376 --> 00:36:21,810 Like grunge was still sorta popular but it had been 582 00:36:21,876 --> 00:36:24,476 completely watered down it was suffering from the same thing 583 00:36:24,543 --> 00:36:27,443 hair metal was suffering from in the late '80s but there was a 584 00:36:27,543 --> 00:36:30,810 lot of like grindcore and there was a lot of like really crazy 585 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:34,343 death metal bands that were out, we really come from that late 586 00:36:34,410 --> 00:36:38,176 '80s early '90s technical metal you know, we knew 587 00:36:38,243 --> 00:36:41,876 we wanted to do a little more, really progressive. 588 00:36:41,943 --> 00:36:43,610 Bill: What I really wanted to achieve with Mastodon 589 00:36:43,676 --> 00:36:45,843 I guess was just to play music that was 590 00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:51,010 challenging in the right way and I was completely in control of. 591 00:36:52,476 --> 00:36:55,210 I wanted all of us to be a collective, make sure every note 592 00:36:55,276 --> 00:36:57,276 and every riff fit and sounded good together and 593 00:36:57,343 --> 00:37:00,510 kind of throw a curveball in here and there 594 00:37:00,576 --> 00:37:03,876 just to put like an ode to prog rock in there. 595 00:37:03,943 --> 00:37:19,476 * Music * 596 00:37:19,543 --> 00:37:22,443 Sam: What does Mastodon bring to progressive metal, how are 597 00:37:22,510 --> 00:37:25,176 they different from everything that has come before? 598 00:37:25,243 --> 00:37:28,510 Mike Portnoy: Mastodon are like the Black Sabbath 599 00:37:28,576 --> 00:37:32,010 of modern progressive music. With a twist of 600 00:37:32,110 --> 00:37:34,110 King Crimson thrown in there too. 601 00:37:34,110 --> 00:37:38,110 It's all about the riffs with them, riff after riff after 602 00:37:38,143 --> 00:37:42,843 riff, crunching and so heavy but at the same time 603 00:37:42,910 --> 00:37:45,010 there's this unbelievable musicianship I mean 604 00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:47,910 Brann's drumming he's like the Bill Bruford of metal, 605 00:37:47,976 --> 00:37:50,110 what he does with his hands are so incredible. 606 00:37:50,143 --> 00:38:01,376 * Music * 607 00:38:01,443 --> 00:38:03,276 You control the parallel with the Dream Theatre thing 608 00:38:03,343 --> 00:38:05,576 because Dream Theatre brought in the Metallica side you know, 609 00:38:05,643 --> 00:38:09,143 the thrash metal thing but Mastodon they were always 610 00:38:09,210 --> 00:38:12,910 received as like sludge metal bring that into the mix, 611 00:38:12,976 --> 00:38:15,410 and again (beep) the rule book we don't care 612 00:38:15,476 --> 00:38:19,110 if people think Yes and King Crimson are not hip, 613 00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:21,676 we love them we're going to throw that into our music and 614 00:38:21,743 --> 00:38:24,310 you're gonna hear it and be damned with the consequences. 615 00:38:24,376 --> 00:38:37,376 * Music * 616 00:38:37,443 --> 00:38:41,343 >> Breaking from many of their metal contemporaries in 2004, 617 00:38:41,410 --> 00:38:44,510 Mastodon created the first prog rock metal concept album of 618 00:38:44,576 --> 00:38:48,376 the new millennia; Leviathan which was inspired by the 619 00:38:48,443 --> 00:38:51,343 American classic adventure story Moby Dick. 620 00:38:51,410 --> 00:38:53,943 Brann: I had like this really long flight, and I met the guys 621 00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:56,610 in London and we were starting a tour and I was like we gotta do 622 00:38:56,676 --> 00:39:02,443 the record about Moby Dick, so I had like this big shpeal and 623 00:39:02,510 --> 00:39:05,110 just talked about the big whale and all this stuff 624 00:39:05,176 --> 00:39:07,276 and everybody was excited about it so I was like 625 00:39:07,343 --> 00:39:10,110 ok cool sounds good let's go record it. 626 00:39:10,110 --> 00:39:12,876 Bill: The book Moby Dick in the whole story was so much 627 00:39:12,943 --> 00:39:16,610 how we felt inside at the moment because we had 628 00:39:16,676 --> 00:39:19,610 this white van that we would leave all our families and 629 00:39:19,676 --> 00:39:23,343 say so long we're going to take off into the unknown 630 00:39:23,410 --> 00:39:26,110 just like the guys on the boat. We really just personally 631 00:39:26,176 --> 00:39:28,376 related to it I think until that record came out. 632 00:39:28,443 --> 00:39:30,443 A lot of people might have just thought of us as another 633 00:39:30,510 --> 00:39:33,110 heavy metal band and it's like 'ooh, these guys are a little 634 00:39:33,110 --> 00:39:35,343 intellectual if they're reading books' 635 00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:37,976 so I think people just gave us a second glance. 636 00:39:38,110 --> 00:39:41,476 Matt: Leviathan made a huge impact to make a concept album 637 00:39:41,543 --> 00:39:46,210 about Moby Dick with a whale on the cover, it was taking things 638 00:39:46,276 --> 00:39:49,610 to the next step and people pretty much freaked out I mean 639 00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:53,243 they were suddenly getting glowing reviews everywhere. 640 00:39:53,310 --> 00:39:56,243 They were getting the cover of magazines, the likes of Spin and 641 00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:58,276 Rolling Stone and people like that were starting to pay 642 00:39:58,343 --> 00:40:00,343 attention so we weren't surprised that it did well but 643 00:40:00,410 --> 00:40:04,810 it did resonate on a larger scale than we anticipated, 644 00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:06,476 which was fantastic of course. 645 00:40:06,543 --> 00:40:14,076 * Music * 646 00:40:14,143 --> 00:40:15,810 >> Mastodon has grown to become one of the most 647 00:40:15,876 --> 00:40:19,210 successful metal bands of the 2000's, but Mastodon 648 00:40:19,276 --> 00:40:22,576 isn't alone in carrying prog metal into the future, 649 00:40:22,643 --> 00:40:25,743 some of the founders of the genre are still going strong. 650 00:40:25,810 --> 00:40:32,076 * Music * 651 00:40:32,143 --> 00:40:35,076 >> Over 40 years into their career, Rush has set aside their 652 00:40:35,143 --> 00:40:38,510 keyboards and returned to their prog metal roots. 653 00:40:38,576 --> 00:40:40,343 So why does progressive metal remain 654 00:40:40,410 --> 00:40:42,910 one of heavy metals most vital sub-genres? 655 00:40:42,976 --> 00:40:53,243 * Music * 656 00:40:53,310 --> 00:40:56,910 Sam: Why do we see kids at Rush shows today, 657 00:40:56,976 --> 00:40:59,876 air guitaring, air bassing, air drumming 658 00:40:59,943 --> 00:41:01,410 what do you make of that? 659 00:41:01,476 --> 00:41:03,543 Neil: I pretty much try to stay in touch with that kid 660 00:41:03,610 --> 00:41:06,510 as much as I can and it certainly drives my drumming. 661 00:41:06,576 --> 00:41:09,543 I play stuff that I find exciting, so there couldn't 662 00:41:09,610 --> 00:41:11,543 be anymore genuine style than that. 663 00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:14,243 We make songs that we like, we try to make them better and 664 00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:17,443 then we play them for people. That is the progressive urge. 665 00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:19,443 Mike: The key characteristic of progressive music 666 00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:23,010 is musicianship, and there is always going to be young kids 667 00:41:23,110 --> 00:41:25,810 who are picking up a guitar or a pair of drumsticks 668 00:41:25,876 --> 00:41:28,276 for the first time and want to see a drummer 669 00:41:28,343 --> 00:41:30,910 with a 400 piece drum-set and a guitar player 670 00:41:30,976 --> 00:41:32,376 that can play a million miles per hour. 671 00:41:32,443 --> 00:41:34,543 There's always gonna be an audience for that. 672 00:41:34,610 --> 00:41:37,376 Tomas: Interesting music doesn't have a due date on it. 673 00:41:37,443 --> 00:41:40,443 You can play a Rush song 50 years from now and it's still 674 00:41:40,510 --> 00:41:44,176 going to be something viable and you'll need that, 675 00:41:44,243 --> 00:41:46,310 and you'll need to want to challenge yourself. 676 00:41:46,376 --> 00:41:49,110 Geddy: I think there is always a portion of the fan base 677 00:41:49,176 --> 00:41:52,943 that are more intrigued by conceptual music 678 00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:55,843 because it's a little more complicated and harder. 679 00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:58,743 Whatever preposterous term you wanna give it and the other 680 00:41:58,810 --> 00:42:02,210 thing is there's a lot of empty calories on the radio so there's 681 00:42:02,276 --> 00:42:06,010 going to be a need for people always to listen to something 682 00:42:06,110 --> 00:42:09,343 interesting and I think young fans when they can't find that 683 00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:12,210 on the radio are gonna find it in Genesis, they're gonna 684 00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:14,876 find it in Tool, they're gonna find it in Rush. 685 00:42:14,943 --> 00:42:25,676 * Music * 686 00:42:25,743 --> 00:42:28,210 >> I set out to explore what the term progressive metal 687 00:42:28,276 --> 00:42:31,976 means and what it says about the future of heavy metal music 688 00:42:32,110 --> 00:42:34,576 and I've seen that dedication to creating adventurous and 689 00:42:34,643 --> 00:42:37,310 challenging music is the defining characteristic of 690 00:42:37,376 --> 00:42:40,110 progressive metal, but what I've also learned in this 691 00:42:40,176 --> 00:42:42,443 final episode is that this characteristic 692 00:42:42,510 --> 00:42:45,510 is not exclusive to progressive metal. 693 00:42:45,576 --> 00:42:48,343 Whether it's metals new emerging bands or the legends of the 694 00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:51,343 genre it's the same commitment to pushing boundaries 695 00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:54,910 and the spirit of one upmanship that drives heavy metal as 696 00:42:54,976 --> 00:42:58,476 a whole so it's evident to me that heavy metal will remain 697 00:42:58,543 --> 00:43:02,310 relevant and continue to evolve for decades to come. 698 00:43:02,376 --> 00:43:15,376 * Music * 699 00:43:18,576 --> 00:43:46,510 *