1 00:00:06,210 --> 00:00:19,576 * Music * 2 00:00:19,643 --> 00:00:21,076 Sam Dunn: When people talk about the birth of 3 00:00:21,143 --> 00:00:23,343 heavy metal they generally talk about the great British bands 4 00:00:23,410 --> 00:00:26,210 like Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple 5 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:28,943 but America also played a really important role in 6 00:00:29,010 --> 00:00:32,010 the origins of this music and you can't talk about 7 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:34,710 American metal without talking about Kiss. 8 00:00:34,776 --> 00:00:40,943 * Music * 9 00:00:41,010 --> 00:00:43,310 But the question for this episode is, what are the 10 00:00:43,376 --> 00:00:46,776 origins of American metal and how do we get to KISS? 11 00:00:50,443 --> 00:01:43,010 * Intro * 12 00:01:45,610 --> 00:01:53,876 * Music * 13 00:01:53,943 --> 00:01:56,676 >> The evolution of heavy music in America goes back much 14 00:01:56,743 --> 00:02:00,810 further than the explosion of Kiss in the 1970's and if there 15 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:03,776 is one style of early American music that was heavy for its 16 00:02:03,843 --> 00:02:08,410 time it's surf music especially the sound of the surf guitar. 17 00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:11,743 Sam Dunn: And I've been thinking back to the first guitar riff 18 00:02:11,843 --> 00:02:14,543 my Dad ever played for me and it was a surf guitar song 19 00:02:14,610 --> 00:02:17,643 by the legendary Dick Dale and I remember loving it 20 00:02:17,710 --> 00:02:21,743 because it had this real intense sort of shredding vibe to it. 21 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:23,343 So I'm wondering what place does 22 00:02:23,410 --> 00:02:25,510 surf music have in the history of metal? 23 00:02:27,710 --> 00:02:30,643 Sam: read the little write-up on Dick Dale here at the museum 24 00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:33,610 and one of the first things it says, 'father of heavy metal' 25 00:02:33,676 --> 00:02:36,110 Dick Dale: That's what they called me, critics would say, 26 00:02:36,176 --> 00:02:40,576 this music sounds like the metallic galloping of two trains 27 00:02:40,676 --> 00:02:43,876 coming and just crashing. I didn't consider myself 28 00:02:43,943 --> 00:02:46,443 a guitar player, I don't know what an augmented 29 00:02:46,510 --> 00:02:48,676 ninth or thirteenth is and I don't care. 30 00:02:48,743 --> 00:02:51,143 I just bang on that thing and I make it scream with pain or 31 00:02:51,210 --> 00:02:53,710 pleasure and I get sounds of Mother Nature. 32 00:02:53,776 --> 00:03:03,110 * Music * 33 00:03:03,176 --> 00:03:06,510 Dick: I heard about a man called Leo Fender, he said well how 34 00:03:06,576 --> 00:03:08,576 come you got to play so loud, you're blowing up 35 00:03:08,643 --> 00:03:11,876 my amplifiers, and I said, well, because I'm playing at a place 36 00:03:11,943 --> 00:03:14,710 called the Rendezvous Ballroom and I want my guitar and 37 00:03:14,776 --> 00:03:16,910 speaker to sound like Gene Krupa. 38 00:03:16,976 --> 00:03:20,610 * Drums * 39 00:03:20,676 --> 00:03:22,643 Dick: So the Stratocaster was built with a thick 40 00:03:22,710 --> 00:03:25,543 body so that it would give it that fat sound and I put 41 00:03:25,610 --> 00:03:29,610 thick strings on it to gave it a fatter sound then Leo created 42 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:35,443 the first 100-watt output transformer peaking 180 watts. 43 00:03:35,510 --> 00:03:37,443 To this day that's never been matched and 44 00:03:37,510 --> 00:03:40,976 people's ears started, whoa what is this? 45 00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:42,910 Don Branker: He took the guitar and turned it into 46 00:03:42,976 --> 00:03:47,576 a instrument not just a small part of the music, 47 00:03:47,643 --> 00:03:49,410 he was able to do things on the guitar 48 00:03:49,476 --> 00:03:50,943 that nobody had seen before. 49 00:03:51,010 --> 00:03:54,110 Now had he been playing on a wall of amps like Van Halen had, 50 00:03:54,110 --> 00:03:56,010 heavy metal may have been twenty years earlier. 51 00:03:56,143 --> 00:04:05,910 * Music * 52 00:04:07,343 --> 00:04:09,310 >> Along with surf music another genre that 53 00:04:09,376 --> 00:04:11,976 was a distinctly American contribution to early heavy 54 00:04:12,110 --> 00:04:15,876 metal was garage rock and it doesn't get much more American 55 00:04:15,943 --> 00:04:20,143 than Ted Nugent who long before he became the Motor City Madman 56 00:04:20,210 --> 00:04:24,210 he was the guitarist for 60's garage rockers the Amboy Dukes. 57 00:04:25,710 --> 00:04:29,843 Sam Dunn: I've come all the way to his Spirit Wild Ranch 58 00:04:29,910 --> 00:04:32,643 deep in the heart of Texas and I think the real challenge is 59 00:04:32,710 --> 00:04:37,143 to not have Ted talk about hunting and politics 60 00:04:37,210 --> 00:04:39,576 and actually try and focus on the music. 61 00:04:39,643 --> 00:04:42,510 Ted Nugent: Barack, Barack Obama. (burping) 62 00:04:42,576 --> 00:04:45,143 Ted: You get that? Sam Dunn: Got it. 63 00:04:45,210 --> 00:04:46,610 Ted Nugent: Open the show with that (beep). 64 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:47,776 Sam: Take 3. 65 00:04:47,843 --> 00:04:48,943 Ted Nugent: It's the only decent use 66 00:04:49,010 --> 00:04:52,176 I found for those syllables, gas release. 67 00:04:52,243 --> 00:04:53,943 Sam Dunn: You heard it here at the ranch. 68 00:04:54,010 --> 00:04:57,576 Sam Dunn: Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. 69 00:04:57,643 --> 00:04:59,643 Goddammit. 70 00:04:59,743 --> 00:05:04,510 The Amboy Dukes, were you guys called garage rock? 71 00:05:04,576 --> 00:05:07,876 Ted: Sure the Amboy dukes were the quintessential garage band. 72 00:05:08,010 --> 00:05:13,776 We had all the flailing kerrang outrage, the uninhibitedness, 73 00:05:13,843 --> 00:05:19,310 the ferociousness of my Chuck Berry Bo Diddley 74 00:05:19,376 --> 00:05:24,610 dreams was as raw and unrefined as possible. 75 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:27,576 All of us garage bands, all of us kids taught 76 00:05:27,643 --> 00:05:31,710 every band okay we can't play like (beep) anymore. 77 00:05:31,776 --> 00:05:44,110 * Music * 78 00:05:44,176 --> 00:05:46,410 John Drake: It was a bad boy attitude, you know just 79 00:05:46,476 --> 00:05:48,810 like a swaggering attitude, this is what we do. 80 00:05:48,876 --> 00:05:51,743 The volume kept going up that was another thing you know, 81 00:05:51,810 --> 00:05:53,210 you just happen to notice it, 82 00:05:53,276 --> 00:05:54,643 now you're really starting to get this feeling. 83 00:05:54,710 --> 00:06:14,443 * Music * 84 00:06:14,510 --> 00:06:16,643 Lenny Kaye: When the English bands came over here 85 00:06:16,710 --> 00:06:19,976 all brandishing guitars of some form or another, 86 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:25,910 it was like, oh we have to get back to where we started 87 00:06:25,976 --> 00:06:29,810 and that's when you have all these garage bands in America 88 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:35,843 suddenly taking root in every town all across the USA 89 00:06:35,910 --> 00:06:37,843 that would certainly lay the ground work 90 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:40,776 for the next stage of what the music would become. 91 00:06:40,843 --> 00:06:52,510 * Music * 92 00:06:53,943 --> 00:06:55,476 >> The American garage rock movement created 93 00:06:55,543 --> 00:06:58,810 fertile ground for bands to experiment with heavy sounds 94 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:01,443 in the mid 60's and it was the Steppenwolf song 95 00:07:01,510 --> 00:07:04,176 "Born To Be Wild" that not only pushed music in a heavier 96 00:07:04,243 --> 00:07:08,010 direction but also featured the phrase, "heavy metal". 97 00:07:09,876 --> 00:07:11,943 Sam Dunn: Was Steppenwolf the first band to use the term "heavy metal"? 98 00:07:12,010 --> 00:07:13,810 John Kay: To be honest with you it doesn't really matter very 99 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:16,943 much, I do know that from that time on there 100 00:07:17,010 --> 00:07:20,443 were people who thought of Steppenwolf as being 101 00:07:20,510 --> 00:07:24,710 the band that was perhaps kind of a prototype for other bands 102 00:07:24,776 --> 00:07:26,710 to come which eventually became heavy metal. 103 00:07:26,776 --> 00:07:36,443 * Music * 104 00:07:36,510 --> 00:07:39,310 Corky Laing: The drums are there pulsing away kicking 105 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:41,310 ass you know, you get shivers when you hear the organ, 106 00:07:41,410 --> 00:07:44,843 the guitar is rolling, John Kay had that leadership voice of 107 00:07:44,910 --> 00:07:47,976 the generation, he didn't just tell you about it he made 108 00:07:48,110 --> 00:07:50,143 a point of it you know, it wasn't just a lecture. 109 00:07:50,243 --> 00:07:52,843 He beat people up in terms of telling them how they're gonna 110 00:07:52,910 --> 00:07:54,943 live their life now and how things are gonna change. 111 00:07:55,010 --> 00:08:00,276 * Music * 112 00:08:01,543 --> 00:08:02,943 John Kay: When we started playing some of the tunes 113 00:08:03,010 --> 00:08:06,910 that we kicking around we realized that our sound was not 114 00:08:06,976 --> 00:08:10,976 only more aggressive and rocking heavier but also we were 115 00:08:11,110 --> 00:08:14,376 not stretching out into these kind of ethereal sounding, 116 00:08:14,443 --> 00:08:18,110 you know eight minute songs that had long sweeping solos 117 00:08:18,143 --> 00:08:22,110 that you know etc. we were more like, make your statement and 118 00:08:22,143 --> 00:08:25,776 do it in a compact fashion and hit hard and then move on. 119 00:08:25,843 --> 00:08:43,710 * Music * 120 00:08:54,343 --> 00:08:55,976 Sam Dunn: In the late sixties rock music in America 121 00:08:56,110 --> 00:09:00,443 was becoming increasingly heavy and aggressive and loud 122 00:09:00,510 --> 00:09:02,943 and one of the bands that often get cited as 123 00:09:03,010 --> 00:09:06,476 the loudest of all time is California's Blue Cheer. 124 00:09:06,643 --> 00:09:15,543 * Music * 125 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:17,976 Sam: And so I'm meeting with guitarist Randy Holden 126 00:09:18,110 --> 00:09:20,576 because I want to ask him, what was the attraction 127 00:09:20,643 --> 00:09:23,310 to playing at such punishing volume? 128 00:09:23,376 --> 00:09:37,876 * Music * 129 00:09:37,943 --> 00:09:40,810 Sam: Tell me about San Francisco at the time and 130 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:43,710 to what extent you guys were breaking free 131 00:09:43,776 --> 00:09:46,943 from the typical San Francisco scene. 132 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:49,676 Randy Holden: The psychedelic vibe kind of co-mingled with 133 00:09:49,743 --> 00:09:54,110 folk music and rock and that was you know, had it's place I 134 00:09:54,143 --> 00:10:00,176 suppose, for myself I was always attracted to minor key and 135 00:10:00,343 --> 00:10:05,376 powerful notes, I was tuning my guitar to "D", a whole step note 136 00:10:05,443 --> 00:10:08,743 down from the time I was playing surf music and I did it because 137 00:10:08,810 --> 00:10:11,576 I just love the sound of that thunder. 138 00:10:11,643 --> 00:10:13,110 Dickie Peterson: When Blue Cheer started, 139 00:10:13,176 --> 00:10:19,576 in San Francisco at the time the music scene was so wide open, 140 00:10:19,643 --> 00:10:22,876 I mean there were no rules and it was the only way 141 00:10:22,943 --> 00:10:26,676 a band like Blue Cheer could have surfaced was in that 142 00:10:26,743 --> 00:10:30,276 environment because we were going against all the grains, 143 00:10:30,343 --> 00:10:34,310 we were too loud, we were, our music was too simple, 144 00:10:34,376 --> 00:10:36,710 we weren't sophisticated enough, we were rowdy, 145 00:10:36,810 --> 00:10:39,076 we were obnoxious little punks. 146 00:10:39,143 --> 00:10:41,076 Geddy Lee: In many ways they were the first metal band 147 00:10:41,143 --> 00:10:43,443 but they didn't think in terms of metal, 148 00:10:43,510 --> 00:10:46,310 it was volume that they were all about and fury. 149 00:10:46,376 --> 00:10:56,110 * Music * 150 00:10:56,176 --> 00:10:58,876 Sam Dunn: What was the appeal to you of playing so loud? 151 00:10:58,943 --> 00:11:00,976 Randy Holden: I don't know I'm born with that, that's just 152 00:11:01,110 --> 00:11:04,210 something that totally takes me away. 153 00:11:05,543 --> 00:11:07,643 There's something, there's beauty in that. 154 00:11:07,710 --> 00:11:10,276 I would sit and imagine what would it sound like if you were 155 00:11:10,376 --> 00:11:13,276 right there when a nuclear explosion went off and I thought 156 00:11:13,343 --> 00:11:18,376 if you had enough amplifiers you could come close to that maybe. 157 00:11:18,443 --> 00:11:35,243 * Music * 158 00:11:37,976 --> 00:11:46,576 * Music * 159 00:11:46,643 --> 00:11:48,110 >> Perhaps the most important city in the 160 00:11:48,176 --> 00:11:52,310 development of early metal in the U.S. is Detroit. 161 00:11:52,376 --> 00:11:55,210 So I've come to the motor city to meet with Wayne Kramer 162 00:11:55,276 --> 00:11:58,376 guitarist for the legendary Detroit band the MC5 163 00:11:58,443 --> 00:12:01,110 to find out why this city became the epicenter 164 00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:04,210 of heavy music back in the late sixties. 165 00:12:05,676 --> 00:12:08,743 Sam Dunn: Can you describe what things were like back then? 166 00:12:08,810 --> 00:12:11,676 Wayne Kramer: There was a sense of urgency in finding 167 00:12:11,743 --> 00:12:16,210 a militant position to take to oppose the disastrous 168 00:12:16,276 --> 00:12:19,176 direction things were going in. Every day there were 169 00:12:19,243 --> 00:12:22,176 developments on the national and international scene, 170 00:12:22,243 --> 00:12:25,976 political developments that poured gasoline on the fire. 171 00:12:26,110 --> 00:12:29,343 Flower power was nice but that wasn't enough power, 172 00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:32,676 my generation was in agreement that the way our parents were 173 00:12:32,743 --> 00:12:36,176 doing things completely was a disaster and 174 00:12:36,243 --> 00:12:39,710 the only chance we got is to say something about it and 175 00:12:39,776 --> 00:12:43,010 say it as loud as we can and we found that 176 00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:45,443 electric guitars were a good way to do that. 177 00:12:45,510 --> 00:13:02,276 * Music * 178 00:13:02,343 --> 00:13:04,243 Wayne Kramer: There was an esthetic that developed in 179 00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:08,310 Detroit unique in the world and it kind of gave me the sense 180 00:13:08,376 --> 00:13:11,443 that you know I don't have to live in New York, I don't have 181 00:13:11,510 --> 00:13:13,376 to live in London you know, I don't have to live in 182 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:16,776 San Francisco, we've got something going on here and 183 00:13:16,843 --> 00:13:21,310 we were all influenced by the industrial base of Detroit. 184 00:13:21,376 --> 00:13:26,610 This idea of metal and the noise showed up in the music. 185 00:13:26,676 --> 00:13:28,410 James Williamson: I think the music really more than anything 186 00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:33,110 else was a reaction to the industrial nature of Detroit. 187 00:13:33,143 --> 00:13:39,410 You were either working on cars or selling cars or thinking about cars. 188 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:40,643 Scott Asheton: Or stealing cars. 189 00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:42,176 James Williamson: Or stealing cars. 190 00:13:42,243 --> 00:13:44,343 Wayne Kramer: Every weeknight clubs would be full of 191 00:13:44,410 --> 00:13:47,710 workers that were working days or working afternoons 192 00:13:47,776 --> 00:13:49,276 and they could stay in the bars till 2 in 193 00:13:49,343 --> 00:13:51,010 the morning and so bands could play. 194 00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:53,810 So there was a lot going on for a musician. 195 00:13:53,876 --> 00:13:55,510 Jaan Uhelzski: We had all the California bands like the 196 00:13:55,576 --> 00:13:59,176 Grateful Dead, Janis Joplin and Big Brother but 197 00:13:59,243 --> 00:14:01,576 the Summer of Love never made it to Detroit. 198 00:14:01,643 --> 00:14:03,243 We liked things that really got us off, 199 00:14:03,310 --> 00:14:06,676 you know, simple direct over the top make you move, 200 00:14:06,743 --> 00:14:08,376 make you want to dance stuff. 201 00:14:08,443 --> 00:14:11,776 The MC5 especially Wayne Kramer, they would go, "Kick out the 202 00:14:11,876 --> 00:14:15,143 jams (beep), or get off the stage", meaning this is a 203 00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:17,776 weak performance, just get out of here and that just 204 00:14:17,843 --> 00:14:20,410 became kind of their tag phrase, their motto. 205 00:14:20,476 --> 00:14:48,343 * Music * 206 00:14:49,576 --> 00:14:51,743 Sam Dunn: So why does The MC5 get included 207 00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:54,510 in the conversation about heavy metal? 208 00:14:54,576 --> 00:14:58,676 Wayne Kramer: Well The MC5 gets the credit or the blame, 209 00:14:58,843 --> 00:15:01,210 and I'll take both, 210 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:05,810 for what came to be known as metal and punk rock, 211 00:15:09,143 --> 00:15:12,110 wasn't my plan (laughs). 212 00:15:13,510 --> 00:15:16,476 Guys like Townshend, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, I was heavily 213 00:15:16,543 --> 00:15:19,776 influenced by these guys and when I combined that with what 214 00:15:19,843 --> 00:15:23,676 I was hearing from the free jazz movement, I thought well this 215 00:15:23,743 --> 00:15:27,576 is clearly the next step. I can do things with the 216 00:15:27,643 --> 00:15:31,376 guitar to make it sound very unguitar like. 217 00:15:31,443 --> 00:15:52,410 * Music * 218 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:54,243 Ted Nugent: I thought I was a bad (beep) on the guitar, 219 00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:56,510 I thought the Amboy Dukes were bad (beep) 220 00:15:56,576 --> 00:15:59,310 they had that James Brown Wilson Pickett Sammy Davis shake 221 00:15:59,376 --> 00:16:05,710 going on and then I saw The MC5, it was stupifying. 222 00:16:05,776 --> 00:16:07,743 Lenny Kaye: My life changed by The MC5, 223 00:16:07,810 --> 00:16:12,776 a great show band, beyond politics, beyond anything, 224 00:16:12,843 --> 00:16:17,276 a great loud roar of high energy, complimented on the 225 00:16:17,343 --> 00:16:21,576 other side by the complete simplicity 226 00:16:21,643 --> 00:16:23,210 and directness of The Stooges. 227 00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:32,243 * Music * 228 00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:34,576 >> While The MC5 created a sound that hadn't 229 00:16:34,643 --> 00:16:37,676 been heard before in America, another Detroit band that 230 00:16:37,743 --> 00:16:40,876 took music to new levels of rawness and intensity in 231 00:16:40,943 --> 00:16:43,776 the late sixties was Iggy and the Stooges. 232 00:16:43,876 --> 00:16:47,410 Iggy Pop: When we were forming our group The Stooges before we 233 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:51,576 were ever on stage, we'd all liked heavier rock, that just 234 00:16:51,643 --> 00:16:56,376 made me feel like it had an inner unstated message. 235 00:16:56,443 --> 00:17:01,110 To assert myself in a primal way, to take the sex when 236 00:17:01,143 --> 00:17:04,310 I wanted it, to take money when I wanted it, 237 00:17:04,376 --> 00:17:08,876 to be somebody not to have a job and to be somebody. 238 00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:23,410 * Music * 239 00:17:23,476 --> 00:17:26,576 Iggy Pop: When we first played those songs, people would 240 00:17:26,643 --> 00:17:31,776 do this, I mean literally, if there was any room to get back 241 00:17:31,843 --> 00:17:36,510 most people got back but didn't want to leave and some people, 242 00:17:36,576 --> 00:17:42,610 the type that later became called "stoners" or "sluts", 243 00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:48,343 those are our two big fan bases and then a few "intellectuals", 244 00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:52,910 they'd come forward and the others would peek in horror from 245 00:17:52,976 --> 00:17:56,543 the back of the place and the (beep) sounded heavy. 246 00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:59,776 That's what it was desperately important to me to be. 247 00:17:59,843 --> 00:18:19,843 * Music * 248 00:18:19,910 --> 00:18:22,443 Iggy Pop: I think the one thing that allows people to 249 00:18:22,510 --> 00:18:26,643 find all sorts of stuff in our music is that we 250 00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:29,610 never really stuck it out in your face too much. 251 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:33,510 It was in your face in one way but in another way it had 252 00:18:33,576 --> 00:18:41,110 kind of a sullen, an inward quality that you also find in 253 00:18:41,143 --> 00:18:44,843 goth music, grunge music, in metal music. 254 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:49,943 * Music * 255 00:18:50,010 --> 00:18:51,676 >> The Detroit bands established a new direction 256 00:18:51,743 --> 00:18:55,143 in heavy music in the late sixties but Detroit's reign as 257 00:18:55,210 --> 00:18:58,810 the epicenter of American hard rock was short lived. 258 00:18:58,876 --> 00:19:01,610 By the early seventies the legendary Grande Ballroom 259 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:04,743 had closed and The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges 260 00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:07,743 had fallen apart due to drug problems. 261 00:19:07,810 --> 00:19:10,110 But there would be one Detroit musician who would 262 00:19:10,176 --> 00:19:12,510 eventually drag American hard rock out of 263 00:19:12,576 --> 00:19:15,110 the underground and into the mainstream. 264 00:19:18,343 --> 00:19:27,576 * Music * 265 00:19:27,643 --> 00:19:29,143 >> The story of American heavy metal would not 266 00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:32,676 be complete without the Alice Cooper Band. 267 00:19:32,743 --> 00:19:35,676 They're one of the most extreme live acts of all time and 268 00:19:35,743 --> 00:19:37,943 they've also written some of heavy metal's most memorable 269 00:19:38,010 --> 00:19:41,343 radio anthems. So how did this outrageous underground 270 00:19:41,410 --> 00:19:44,176 band from Detroit get their start? 271 00:19:44,243 --> 00:19:46,643 Alice Cooper: Every weekend at the Grande or the Eastown or 272 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:51,910 these great rock dungeons, it was like, you know, The MC5, 273 00:19:51,976 --> 00:19:54,776 Iggy and Alice. Iggy was the king of the punks 274 00:19:54,843 --> 00:19:58,376 and I was this other thing, I was this sort of, 275 00:19:58,443 --> 00:20:00,910 you know, Phantom of the Opera kind of character. 276 00:20:01,043 --> 00:20:04,376 We loved it, you know, we could go as far as we wanted to go on 277 00:20:04,443 --> 00:20:09,143 stage, and I mean, it was always who's crazier Iggy or Alice? 278 00:20:09,210 --> 00:20:11,376 Sam Dunn: What do you think enabled you guys to achieve 279 00:20:11,443 --> 00:20:14,010 that marriage between a harder sound and yet 280 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:16,676 also be accessible on radio at the same time? 281 00:20:16,743 --> 00:20:19,743 Alice Cooper: It was time and we had a producer named Bob Ezrin 282 00:20:19,810 --> 00:20:22,676 who got it, he heard us at Max's Kansas City, he heard Eighteen 283 00:20:22,743 --> 00:20:28,376 and he went ohh, he said, "what's that song I'm Edgey"? 284 00:20:28,443 --> 00:20:30,610 and I said there's no, you mean Eighteen? 285 00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:32,110 And he goes, yah yah yah. 286 00:20:32,176 --> 00:20:36,643 He says that song is so dumb, it's a hit. 287 00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:39,743 We would play it and he would go no no no no, dumb it down, 288 00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:43,376 the song is about a guy that's I'm eighteen, I'm a boy, 289 00:20:43,443 --> 00:20:47,676 I'm a man ahh and I dig it. 290 00:20:47,743 --> 00:21:10,510 * Music * 291 00:21:10,576 --> 00:21:13,110 Bob Ezrin: Mike Bruce was writing great pop stuff 292 00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:15,543 that then the band would take and make into hard rock 293 00:21:15,610 --> 00:21:18,810 and then Alice had these you know strange ideas 294 00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:21,843 and sensibilities that he would inject into the lyrics. 295 00:21:21,910 --> 00:21:24,610 The job that I had was to take all of those 296 00:21:24,676 --> 00:21:30,110 elements and to organize them in a way that 297 00:21:30,143 --> 00:21:33,710 brought a kind of spine to each of the songs. 298 00:21:33,776 --> 00:21:35,710 Alice Cooper: Bob knew how to take our insanity and make it 299 00:21:35,776 --> 00:21:38,776 into a real palatable package. Song's like "Eighteen" and 300 00:21:38,843 --> 00:21:41,576 "School's Out", even if you hate Alice Cooper you have 301 00:21:41,643 --> 00:21:43,843 to like those records because they're fun to listen to. 302 00:21:43,910 --> 00:21:58,976 * Music * 303 00:21:59,110 --> 00:22:02,610 Sam Dunn: Did radio have a significant role in catapulting Alice? 304 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:05,843 Bob Ezrin: The Alice Cooper group owe their career to radio, 305 00:22:05,910 --> 00:22:10,576 it was actually Rosalie Trombley who was at CKLW "The Big 8" in 306 00:22:10,643 --> 00:22:13,710 Windsor, Ontario, the other side of the river from Detroit who 307 00:22:13,776 --> 00:22:18,776 heard our sad little rendition of "I'm Eighteen". 308 00:22:18,843 --> 00:22:21,010 Alice Cooper: She heard this record and her son liked it, 309 00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:24,110 her teenage son, her son said that's the coolest record, 310 00:22:24,176 --> 00:22:27,810 so she added it and the next thing you know, it got 311 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:30,743 request, request, request and it was a major hit. 312 00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:33,743 Now if you were to hit on CKLW that means you, 313 00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:36,010 that was the biggest station in the Midwest, if you got 314 00:22:36,110 --> 00:22:39,276 a hit on CKLW you had a national hit. 315 00:22:39,343 --> 00:22:41,743 Radio wise we were a bit of an oddity. 316 00:22:41,810 --> 00:22:43,543 The hardest rock thing on the radio at that time 317 00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:45,576 probably was The Guess Who. 318 00:22:45,643 --> 00:22:49,143 To crack the Top 40 you were up against Motown, Burt Bacharach. 319 00:22:49,243 --> 00:22:52,643 In order to get into that Top 40 you had to have a record really 320 00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:56,110 made a dent, that made people go, 'what was that?' 321 00:22:56,176 --> 00:22:57,810 You know and that's what "Eighteen" did. 322 00:22:57,943 --> 00:23:01,110 Bob Ezrin: Then after that we were looked at like a radio act. 323 00:23:01,143 --> 00:23:03,576 It was kind of expected, it wasn't a matter of trying 324 00:23:03,643 --> 00:23:06,310 to get radio anymore, it was radio was waiting for 325 00:23:06,376 --> 00:23:07,876 the next thing we were going to do. 326 00:23:07,943 --> 00:23:20,743 * Music * 327 00:23:20,810 --> 00:23:22,176 >> With "I'm Eighteen" on the charts and "School's Out" 328 00:23:22,243 --> 00:23:25,710 hitting number one in the UK, Alice Cooper was now 329 00:23:25,776 --> 00:23:29,376 a household name. But radio success was an anomaly for 330 00:23:29,443 --> 00:23:33,743 hard rock bands during the 1970's. For most bands, touring 331 00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:36,876 was the only way to reach audiences and there's no better 332 00:23:36,943 --> 00:23:40,110 example than the successful touring act than Kiss. 333 00:23:40,210 --> 00:24:04,210 * Music * 334 00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:07,143 Sam Dunn: I wanted to get you perspective on how 335 00:24:07,210 --> 00:24:10,776 touring became so critical during the seventies. 336 00:24:10,843 --> 00:24:12,843 Ace Frehley: In the early days I remember playing certain places 337 00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:16,876 where I knew the people weren't huge fans when we walked in. 338 00:24:16,943 --> 00:24:18,976 People in the audience after you know the first couple songs, 339 00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:21,410 some of them would be sitting like this going, all right 340 00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:23,943 prove it. Half way through the show you know people 341 00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:26,843 were up and you know by the time the drums levitated and 342 00:24:26,910 --> 00:24:31,776 everything blew up, they walked out of the club you know, fans. 343 00:24:31,843 --> 00:24:33,476 Peter Criss: You know we do these shows, sell it out, 344 00:24:33,543 --> 00:24:36,776 there were cheering and smiling, we got a lot of girls at night, 345 00:24:36,843 --> 00:24:39,210 had a great party and then go back and go, 346 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:41,843 why aren't we on the radio? 347 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:44,343 Next day we would read the papers, it said we sucked, 348 00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:47,110 we were loud, we were boisterous, we were out of control, 349 00:24:47,176 --> 00:24:50,810 they don't understand us, this band should be killed 350 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:52,710 or shot or hung. What's wrong here? 351 00:24:54,343 --> 00:24:55,643 Christopher Knowles: If you're not getting played on the radio 352 00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:57,176 you have to play it to the people directly. 353 00:24:57,243 --> 00:25:00,843 This is before MTV, this is before YouTube, touring was 354 00:25:00,910 --> 00:25:02,843 really the only way that they could get their music out 355 00:25:02,910 --> 00:25:06,343 to the people. So these guys are touring incessantly. 356 00:25:06,410 --> 00:25:08,410 Sammy Hagar: There was a cult thing to where a band would 357 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:12,376 come to town and you had 500 or 600 people that were 358 00:25:12,510 --> 00:25:14,776 saying, I'm gonna see this band but even Kiss didn't explode 359 00:25:14,843 --> 00:25:16,976 on their first record, you know they went out and worked 360 00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:21,143 and opened for people and busted their balls out on the road. 361 00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:25,976 Larry Harris: Here's a band who was only played on FM radio, got 362 00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:28,943 very little Top 40 airplay which is what most bands in those days 363 00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:32,876 had to get to explode, and we had left Warner Brothers who was 364 00:25:32,943 --> 00:25:35,343 our distributor and we had none of our own money and we couldn't 365 00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:38,810 afford to put them back into the studio so what we did was do a 366 00:25:38,876 --> 00:25:41,610 live album because we really had no other choice. 367 00:25:41,676 --> 00:26:11,176 * Music * 368 00:26:11,243 --> 00:26:13,176 Sam Dunn: Why do a live record at that point? 369 00:26:13,276 --> 00:26:17,010 Peter Criss: Desperation, and yah, we were like at the 370 00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:20,743 end of our rope, we were so frustrated that we could not 371 00:26:20,810 --> 00:26:22,943 get our sound on vinyl. 372 00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:24,910 We hear a lot of other English bands, you hear 373 00:26:24,976 --> 00:26:27,376 from Zeppelin to The Who, all these other bands, 374 00:26:27,443 --> 00:26:29,110 a few bands by then did do live albums and 375 00:26:29,176 --> 00:26:31,876 they sounded phenomenal, why can't we do this? 376 00:26:31,943 --> 00:26:34,343 And finally Eddie Kramer came into the picture, 377 00:26:34,410 --> 00:26:36,576 we went out on the road with Eddie with a bunch of 378 00:26:36,643 --> 00:26:40,910 trucks and we recorded every night live. 379 00:26:40,976 --> 00:26:44,810 When we went and listened every night in the trailer, that it 380 00:26:44,876 --> 00:26:49,010 was so exciting, what we were missing was the audience, 381 00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:53,010 the screaming, the kids involved in the energy of the music, 382 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:57,276 we thought now this is what kids will bring home to their 383 00:26:57,343 --> 00:27:01,976 living room and get partied out and get crazed and stoned, 384 00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:04,310 and put it on and party all night long. 385 00:27:04,376 --> 00:27:21,010 * Music * 386 00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:22,610 Larry Harris: We never thought it would explode the way 387 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:26,876 it exploded, nobody did, the live album gave this energy 388 00:27:26,943 --> 00:27:29,343 that no studio album could capture with this band. 389 00:27:29,410 --> 00:27:31,443 It was for fans who saw them and wanted to relive it 390 00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:35,443 and it was for fans who didn't see them and got off 391 00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:38,110 on what was going on, the excitement. 392 00:27:38,143 --> 00:27:39,543 Ace Frehley: It was the right record at the right time and it 393 00:27:39,610 --> 00:27:42,110 gave the band a shot in the arm because prior to that the first 394 00:27:42,143 --> 00:27:46,143 3 albums did ok, we weren't a million album selling group, if 395 00:27:46,210 --> 00:27:48,143 the live would have failed you know, I don't know what would 396 00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:52,976 have happened. You know, but Kisstory is Kisstory (laughs). 397 00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:57,110 * Music * 398 00:27:57,176 --> 00:28:00,110 >> Alive was Kiss' first album to reach the top 10 399 00:28:00,110 --> 00:28:03,276 and is still the bands longest charting record of all time, 400 00:28:03,343 --> 00:28:06,443 so now that Kiss and Alice Cooper were selling millions of 401 00:28:06,543 --> 00:28:10,243 records, what did it take to bring the entire American 402 00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:13,110 hard rock genre into main stream culture? 403 00:28:13,143 --> 00:28:20,510 * Music * 404 00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:36,543 >> In the early seventies Kiss wasn't the only American hard 405 00:28:36,610 --> 00:28:39,343 rock band building a devoted fan base through their 406 00:28:39,410 --> 00:28:44,243 live show. Kiss' main competitor was Boston's Aerosmith. 407 00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:59,476 * Music * 408 00:28:59,543 --> 00:29:02,310 >> Aerosmith has sold 150 million albums 409 00:29:02,376 --> 00:29:04,010 and holds the record for the most gold and platinum 410 00:29:04,110 --> 00:29:07,010 albums by an American group. 411 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:09,776 But Aerosmith's musical contribution to the evolution of 412 00:29:09,843 --> 00:29:12,776 heavy metal remains largely untold. 413 00:29:12,843 --> 00:29:16,276 So I'm meeting with bassist and founding member Tom Hamilton 414 00:29:16,343 --> 00:29:19,476 to find out where the Areosmith sound came from and 415 00:29:19,543 --> 00:29:22,443 why it made such a big impact back in the early 70's. 416 00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:25,410 Tom Hamilton: Joe and I had been playing together in bands 417 00:29:25,476 --> 00:29:27,210 before Aerosmith when we were teenagers. 418 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:32,210 We loved Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin, we technically weren't 419 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:35,610 great musicians, we just got the loudest amps we could. 420 00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:38,110 Turn them up and play it as fast as we could. 421 00:29:38,143 --> 00:29:41,376 Steven was sort of on a parallel route with his bands but they 422 00:29:41,443 --> 00:29:45,476 were very professional, very polished, more towards pop. 423 00:29:45,543 --> 00:29:50,210 Joey was way into funk bands, Kool and the Gang and James Brown. 424 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:52,776 When we finally met up and got together, those elements 425 00:29:52,843 --> 00:29:55,110 developed into the sound of the band. 426 00:29:56,576 --> 00:29:59,376 Christopher Knowles: Aerosmith to me is a swing band, 427 00:29:59,443 --> 00:30:03,076 all their riffs are basically horn charts transposed to the guitar. 428 00:30:03,143 --> 00:30:05,710 I mean Aerosmith are really taking the Rolling Stones 429 00:30:05,776 --> 00:30:08,643 and combining it with Led Zeppelin, talk about a 430 00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:11,610 sure fire formula for success. 431 00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:15,176 Slash: They had a certain kind of swagger that sort of 432 00:30:15,243 --> 00:30:17,610 developed and progressed from record to record. 433 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:23,476 I just love the sort of misfit almost hopeless screw up sort of 434 00:30:23,576 --> 00:30:27,976 sounded like on record but with this great back beat and this 435 00:30:28,043 --> 00:30:31,443 sort of like anxiety-ridden kind of delivery. 436 00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:46,443 * Music * 437 00:30:46,510 --> 00:30:48,210 Tom Hamilton: When we first came out, Rolling Stone 438 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:52,310 just said these guys are just a second rate Stones rip off 439 00:30:52,376 --> 00:30:56,410 basically you know, oh I get it, you know Jagger/Richards. 440 00:30:56,476 --> 00:31:01,176 The rock press wanted to hear a little bit more, you know, 441 00:31:01,243 --> 00:31:04,410 of an intellectual component from their bands and 442 00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:07,443 we were just about, you know, rocking out. 443 00:31:07,510 --> 00:31:12,343 David Krebs: Aerosmith was, a sore thumb because I think at 444 00:31:12,410 --> 00:31:16,310 that point in time Columbia looked at Aerosmith as being in 445 00:31:16,376 --> 00:31:19,743 their eyes déclassé, like the difference between where Havard 446 00:31:19,810 --> 00:31:23,276 and you belong at some local school kind of thinking. 447 00:31:23,343 --> 00:31:26,210 Tom Hamilton: We just had to go out on the road and now 448 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:28,343 you would call it viral marketing, get on the best tours 449 00:31:28,410 --> 00:31:31,110 we could opening for whatever band. We opened for some 450 00:31:31,176 --> 00:31:35,443 weird people back then but it was a crowd, we didn't care. 451 00:31:37,243 --> 00:31:40,110 And so eventually you know we just built that up to a critical mass. 452 00:31:40,143 --> 00:31:49,443 * Music * 453 00:31:49,510 --> 00:31:51,476 Sam Dunn: As you know I mean, the band really started 454 00:31:51,543 --> 00:31:53,576 to hit big with the album "Toys in the Attic". 455 00:31:53,643 --> 00:31:55,643 David Krebs: Toys in the Attic had "Sweet Emotion" 456 00:31:55,710 --> 00:31:58,410 and "Walk This Way". "Dream On" was a single 457 00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:05,143 that came out, off of the first album and I think may 458 00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:08,610 have cleared the high seventies and fell off the charts. 459 00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:12,843 After we had success I convinced Columbia to re-release 460 00:32:12,910 --> 00:32:16,376 "Dream On" and it went to Number 6. 461 00:32:16,443 --> 00:32:18,376 Tom Hamilton: I remember the first time hearing one of our 462 00:32:18,443 --> 00:32:21,410 songs on the radio, that's when "Dream On" became a hit. 463 00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:23,643 I realized, oh my god if I'm hearing it, that means there's 464 00:32:23,710 --> 00:32:28,176 like thousands of other people listening to it right now for 465 00:32:28,243 --> 00:32:32,443 the first time and it was such an amazing rush. 466 00:32:32,510 --> 00:32:35,710 All at once the whole thing just gave way and we were this 467 00:32:35,776 --> 00:32:38,110 big band and we were playing stadiums, 468 00:32:38,176 --> 00:32:40,210 playing in front of 50, 60 thousand people. 469 00:32:40,276 --> 00:32:42,710 We had reached a creative pinnacle and we were starting to 470 00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:45,676 become successful doing something like what we idolized, 471 00:32:45,743 --> 00:32:48,143 boy were we having a fun time at that point. 472 00:32:48,210 --> 00:33:00,510 * Music * 473 00:33:00,576 --> 00:33:03,310 >> With Aerosmith cracking AM radio on "Toys in the Attic", 474 00:33:03,376 --> 00:33:05,610 they opened the door for other American hard rock 475 00:33:05,676 --> 00:33:09,876 bands to hit it big on radio but there's no seventies hard rock 476 00:33:09,943 --> 00:33:14,210 song more radio friendly than Kiss' power ballad "Beth". 477 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:31,376 * Music * 478 00:33:31,443 --> 00:33:33,176 Sam Dunn: Tell me the story of how you came to 479 00:33:33,243 --> 00:33:35,376 work on "Destroyer" and specifically "Beth". 480 00:33:35,443 --> 00:33:36,876 Bob Ezrin: The first thing that happened was that I saw them 481 00:33:36,943 --> 00:33:42,343 play live in, I believe it was Saginaw, MI in a 9000 seater and 482 00:33:42,410 --> 00:33:45,610 what was remarkable about it was that, from the moment they 483 00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:47,510 started playing people were up on their feet and they never sat 484 00:33:47,576 --> 00:33:50,343 down they just stayed on their feet through the whole concert 485 00:33:50,410 --> 00:33:51,976 and yelled and screamed and pumped their arms in the air 486 00:33:52,110 --> 00:33:53,810 and they left and they were very happy, 487 00:33:53,910 --> 00:33:56,910 but the whole crowd was made up of 15-year-old boys so then 488 00:33:56,976 --> 00:34:01,643 I met them and I said we got to expand your horizons here 489 00:34:01,710 --> 00:34:04,376 and your fan base. What we have to do is make 490 00:34:04,443 --> 00:34:07,476 you more attractive, a little more romantic so in looking 491 00:34:07,543 --> 00:34:10,710 through Peter's material he had this thing called "Beck". 492 00:34:10,843 --> 00:34:13,510 Peter Criss: And I said, "I got a great song man, and I know we 493 00:34:13,576 --> 00:34:16,576 don't do ballads, god forbid the band don't do, because the band, 494 00:34:16,643 --> 00:34:18,576 that was the rules we'll never ever do a ballad as long as we 495 00:34:18,743 --> 00:34:23,576 live and so I spruced it up and I upped the beat and I sang it 496 00:34:23,643 --> 00:34:26,776 to Gene, he goes, "that's not so bad" and finally when Ezrin got 497 00:34:26,843 --> 00:34:30,276 to rehearsals I sang it for Bobby and he said no I hear it 498 00:34:30,343 --> 00:34:32,843 much lower and I think we should call it "Beth". 499 00:34:32,943 --> 00:34:35,410 Bob Ezrin: It was almost like a country song was sort of folky, 500 00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:37,976 you know it had a kind of little bounce to beck (sings) "I hear 501 00:34:38,110 --> 00:34:43,276 you calling" so I said to Peter, do you mind if I take this home 502 00:34:43,343 --> 00:34:48,610 and play around with it a little bit and he said, no go ahead. 503 00:34:48,676 --> 00:34:55,343 Once I hit that little riff in the piano, I suddenly heard a 504 00:34:55,410 --> 00:34:58,510 lush you know orchestral approach to this thing and 505 00:34:58,576 --> 00:35:00,610 I heard a lush ballad. 506 00:35:00,676 --> 00:35:16,010 * Music * 507 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:18,610 Bob Ezrin: And then the job was to go back and sell Kiss 508 00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:23,010 you know the (beep) and balls masters of the universe on the 509 00:35:23,110 --> 00:35:27,376 idea of doing a song with a piano and an orchestra. 510 00:35:27,443 --> 00:35:30,010 Peter Criss: Gene and Paul, they hated it so they knew 511 00:35:30,110 --> 00:35:32,576 I had to go in and sing it, the two of them were 512 00:35:32,643 --> 00:35:37,510 sitting there in the console as I was out of the room and 513 00:35:37,576 --> 00:35:39,910 they're doing this and they're doing this to me, 514 00:35:39,976 --> 00:35:43,676 so Ezrin threw them out and sure enough by throwing them out 515 00:35:43,743 --> 00:35:46,910 we got it maybe on the fifth take and it came out beautiful. 516 00:35:47,110 --> 00:35:54,410 * Music * 517 00:35:54,476 --> 00:35:56,343 Peter Criss: The album went out and they wound up 518 00:35:56,410 --> 00:35:59,376 putting it on the b-side of "Detroit Rock City". 519 00:35:59,443 --> 00:36:05,510 And sure enough a DJ in Georgia flipped it over one day 520 00:36:05,576 --> 00:36:07,610 for the hell of it and put it on and then the phones 521 00:36:07,676 --> 00:36:09,743 starting ringing and it was like, you know, play 522 00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:12,676 that song again. Once "Beth" got on, everything got on, 523 00:36:12,743 --> 00:36:16,643 everything went gold, everything started being played. 524 00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:18,476 Ace Frehley: "Beth" was a big shot in the arm for us, 525 00:36:18,543 --> 00:36:20,443 it gave us exposure to people that normally 526 00:36:20,510 --> 00:36:22,610 wouldn't even know who Kiss was. 527 00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:26,676 That album sold twice as many copies because of that one song. 528 00:36:26,743 --> 00:36:29,776 We all got houses and cars out of it too, you know that didn't hurt. 529 00:36:29,843 --> 00:36:43,476 * Music * 530 00:36:43,543 --> 00:36:44,976 people over here, I would 531 00:36:45,110 --> 00:36:48,976 appreciate it if you'd stand up again and move to your rear, 532 00:36:49,110 --> 00:36:52,876 please, ladies and gentlemen Mr. Ted Nugent. 533 00:36:53,010 --> 00:37:01,643 * Music * 534 00:37:01,710 --> 00:37:05,110 >> By 1978 American hard rock was peaking and there 535 00:37:05,176 --> 00:37:09,176 was no bigger celebration of this music than Cal Jam 2, a 536 00:37:09,243 --> 00:37:12,643 massive two-day festival in the heart of Southern California. 537 00:37:14,276 --> 00:37:16,676 Four years earlier Cal Jam 1 featured British metal bands 538 00:37:16,743 --> 00:37:19,610 Black Sabbath and Deep Purple but by '78 539 00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:23,110 the focus had shifted to American bands. 540 00:37:23,143 --> 00:37:25,243 Sam Dunn: What happens between '74 and '78? 541 00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:27,710 Don Branker: Well you started seeing a transition, all of a 542 00:37:27,776 --> 00:37:30,776 sudden American bands started doing a sound that attracted a 543 00:37:30,843 --> 00:37:36,543 wider base audience and that was Nugent, Heart, Foreigner 544 00:37:36,610 --> 00:37:39,110 and Aerosmith of course and we drew a 100,000 more people 545 00:37:39,176 --> 00:37:41,843 with that show than we did the show in '74. 546 00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:46,143 Ted Nugent: It was a great great day, the audience was awesome, 547 00:37:46,210 --> 00:37:51,876 it was perfect, it was just a sea of unified celebration. 548 00:37:51,943 --> 00:38:12,510 * Music * 549 00:38:12,576 --> 00:38:14,843 Sam Dunn: What are your memories of Cal Jam 2? 550 00:38:14,910 --> 00:38:16,776 Tom Hamilton: We were staying at the Beverly Hills Hotel 551 00:38:16,843 --> 00:38:20,810 and every half an hour somebody was coming in and saying, 552 00:38:20,876 --> 00:38:26,110 my God there's a 175,000 people, no there's 250,000, 553 00:38:26,110 --> 00:38:29,710 there's 300,00 until there was 350,000 people there. 554 00:38:29,843 --> 00:38:33,543 The thought that way out in the darkness people were just going 555 00:38:33,610 --> 00:38:36,110 all the way to this invisible horizon, it was really cool. 556 00:38:36,143 --> 00:38:38,110 David Krebs: Strategically we were at a point where I'm 557 00:38:38,110 --> 00:38:40,676 beginning to see cracks in Aerosmith and part of my 558 00:38:40,743 --> 00:38:43,943 thinking was to try and do these giant events 559 00:38:44,010 --> 00:38:48,510 to build sort of a canopy over them while they were covered 560 00:38:48,576 --> 00:38:53,210 because it was not fun by then. 561 00:38:53,276 --> 00:38:54,710 Tom Hamilton: We were starting to make money and were 562 00:38:54,776 --> 00:38:58,443 starting to buy instead of just little packets of stuff, 563 00:38:58,510 --> 00:39:00,710 we could buy bags of it, it was so decadent. 564 00:39:00,776 --> 00:39:03,810 One of the sad things about our history is that you know moments 565 00:39:03,876 --> 00:39:07,743 like that are inspiring and really exciting but they're 566 00:39:07,810 --> 00:39:13,643 also, it brings out a lot of intensity that somehow got the 567 00:39:13,710 --> 00:39:16,176 better of us. Talk about monkeys with guns you know, 568 00:39:16,243 --> 00:39:19,610 you give these guys this situation and what do they do, 569 00:39:19,676 --> 00:39:22,910 they get burnt out and (beep) up and blow it. 570 00:39:22,976 --> 00:39:29,110 * Music * 571 00:39:29,110 --> 00:39:31,543 >> In the wake of Cal Jam 2 Aerosmith started to 572 00:39:31,610 --> 00:39:35,243 freefall and their record sales were declining. So given that 573 00:39:35,310 --> 00:39:38,643 the biggest band in American hard rock was struggling, 574 00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:41,276 what was the state of the rest of the hard rock genre? 575 00:39:41,343 --> 00:39:43,810 Christopher Knowles: The record industry is hurting badly, 576 00:39:43,876 --> 00:39:48,343 sales are way down and a lot of the big groups that made 577 00:39:48,410 --> 00:39:50,376 the seventies the seventies are really starting 578 00:39:50,443 --> 00:39:53,710 to either break up or burn out or sell out. 579 00:39:53,776 --> 00:39:55,910 Don Branker: Hard rock became kind of irrelevant to a whole 580 00:39:55,976 --> 00:39:58,510 new crop of people interested in music. 581 00:39:58,576 --> 00:40:01,543 You started seeing music dissect and diversify 582 00:40:01,610 --> 00:40:06,743 as the beginning of disco even started. 583 00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:10,343 Jaan Uhelzski: Disco, disco killed so much in its wake. 584 00:40:11,643 --> 00:40:12,676 Sam Dunn: I Was Made For Loving You baby. 585 00:40:12,743 --> 00:40:15,543 Jaan Uhelzski: I know, but you know, 586 00:40:15,610 --> 00:40:17,576 yah, I have no excuse for that. 587 00:40:17,643 --> 00:40:32,343 * Music * 588 00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:34,243 Peter Criss: A disco song (laughs). 589 00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:37,810 They bitched about a ballad, we're doing disco now. 590 00:40:37,876 --> 00:40:40,843 It was like to me Black Sabbath doing a disco song, 591 00:40:40,910 --> 00:40:43,810 I could not see Ozzy singing a disco song. 592 00:40:43,876 --> 00:40:45,210 Larry Harris: There were a lot of bands who weren't disco 593 00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:48,676 doing disco songs, Kiss saw what was happening with 594 00:40:48,743 --> 00:40:51,310 Donna Summer and the Village People and Cher and 595 00:40:51,376 --> 00:40:54,676 they saw the sales and how huge this was becoming. 596 00:40:54,743 --> 00:40:57,443 Knowing Gene and Ace and everybody they probably said, 597 00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:58,876 well if we can sell more records and 598 00:40:58,943 --> 00:41:01,110 make more money we'll give it a shot. 599 00:41:01,143 --> 00:41:03,376 Ace Frehley: "I Was Made For Lovin' You" was a huge departure 600 00:41:03,443 --> 00:41:05,810 and it was something that I wasn't really happy about 601 00:41:05,876 --> 00:41:08,776 either because it started to get into the disco vein 602 00:41:08,843 --> 00:41:13,276 but somehow it happened then, it was a big hit. 603 00:41:13,343 --> 00:41:16,843 Do we want to be remembered for it, is the big question. 604 00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:30,676 * Music * 605 00:41:30,743 --> 00:41:32,976 >> Kiss doing disco put the nail in the coffin for 606 00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:36,710 American heavy metal and by the late seventies Creem magazine 607 00:41:36,776 --> 00:41:40,910 had declared it officially dead. But it was California newcomers 608 00:41:40,976 --> 00:41:44,443 Van Halen that helped reinvigorate metal in America. 609 00:41:44,510 --> 00:41:47,676 So what exactly was new about the sound of Van Halen? 610 00:41:47,743 --> 00:41:50,243 Slash: When I first heard Van Halen it was just like, wow, 611 00:41:50,310 --> 00:41:54,810 the overall vibe of Van Halen was very energetic 612 00:41:54,876 --> 00:41:58,610 and very new sounding, very fresh sounding and 613 00:41:58,676 --> 00:42:01,976 it had a ton of attitude, it was just in your face. 614 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:04,910 Kevin Estrada: It was time to give up on Styx, you know it was 615 00:42:04,976 --> 00:42:07,643 time to give up on Foghat even though those guys might have 616 00:42:07,710 --> 00:42:10,710 been 20 or 25, they look like they're 40 with those mustaches. 617 00:42:10,776 --> 00:42:13,843 When the first Van Halen album came out it just blew me away 618 00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:16,276 and we never heard anything like that put together in that kind 619 00:42:16,343 --> 00:42:18,876 of way with the hooks and the hard edge. 620 00:42:19,010 --> 00:42:21,710 Michael Anthony: When we came on the scene we didn't want to be 621 00:42:21,776 --> 00:42:24,343 pigeon holed into one kind of genre so we would always tell 622 00:42:24,410 --> 00:42:28,143 everybody, no we're big rock because it was just something 623 00:42:28,243 --> 00:42:31,276 that was different you know, Van Halen plays big rock. 624 00:42:31,343 --> 00:42:33,276 David Lee Roth: We got everything, we got enough food 625 00:42:33,343 --> 00:42:36,310 and booze for about 500/700 people here this evening you know. 626 00:42:36,376 --> 00:42:40,476 Originally what we were gonna to do, is we were gonna turn all 627 00:42:40,543 --> 00:42:42,943 the equipment around backwards and show our behind to 628 00:42:43,110 --> 00:42:47,110 the audience and that way everybody be backstage you know. 629 00:42:47,143 --> 00:42:50,376 Chris Knowles: Van Halen recaptured what I think hard rock 630 00:42:50,476 --> 00:42:55,643 lost in the seventies and that's sort of a Dionysian celebration. 631 00:42:55,710 --> 00:43:00,976 Partically with the rise of more distinct heavy metal, they lost 632 00:43:01,110 --> 00:43:05,776 that feeling of celebration and Van Halen are all about that. 633 00:43:05,843 --> 00:43:07,910 Sammy Hagar: They came on crazy drinking friggin' straight out 634 00:43:07,976 --> 00:43:10,976 of the bottle and doing drugs and got the chicks. 635 00:43:11,110 --> 00:43:13,243 Just opened it up for Poison, opened it up for Motley Crue. 636 00:43:13,310 --> 00:43:18,010 Van Halen were the next generation in my opinion of reinventing metal. 637 00:43:18,110 --> 00:43:47,943 *