[Janelle] We've been so divided with Covid,
I am beginning to worry that we may not recover.
[sobs]
[Sukanya] This has been the most difficult season of Sister Wives yet.
What's best for the group is more important.
I guess not everybody agrees with that.
The whole family's gonna fall apart.
[Sukanya] Faced with conflict...
- I have been waiting for you. - And I'm not coming.
Meri, I can't be in a marriage with Kody any more.
I have been moved out of my house.
[crying]
[Sukanya] ...and divided over choices,
the Browns have struggled.
I don't give a [bleep] any more.
Where does that leave us?
[Sukanya] Over the next three episodes,
I sit down individually with Kody,
Janelle, Robyn, Christine, and Meri,
to talk about the most contentious events in their lives.
Tell me about your relationship with Meri.
There's just nothing to talk about.
Why don't you just leave? Because I don't want to.
You emotionally have abandoned them.
Abandoned? Please.
Meri had an affair.
His negativity is kind of making me crazy.
There's also been a lot of pain.
Are we ever gonna have an intimate marriage again?
He just said, "Probably not."
I am angry.
[sighs] I'm devastated by Christine's choice.
We've got these great memories
and we've got these beautiful children, and you hate polygamy?
What the crap?
If he wants to give up, he can give up.
If he doesn't love plural marriage, what does he do?
Where are you and Kody right now?
We're completely separate.
We are no longer together.
Kody and I are divorced.
I'm Sukanya Krishnan, and this is
[Sukanya reading]
[Kody] What a sunrise.
Anyway, I've been up for a bit,
'cause I'm actually going to a hotel
in Flagstaff, to meet with a former news anchor.
I am...
not looking forward to it,
but to be honest, mentally prepared.
I'm always a little bit nervous
for these shows, and always a little bit...
I don't know, sort of keyed up.
It can be a lot, it can be hard and it can be heavy.
We're not doing this together, which normally we do.
[man] Just bring your necklace up.
Marker.
In five, four, three...
- It's great to see you. - Thank you.
And it's great to meet you in person.
And to be in person after Covid.
Yeah. I know, right? This is, like, this is normal.
This is kind of a stroke of normal.
A little bit of normal, a little bit of normal.
It seems like the family's been through a lot.
- Yes, for sure. - Yeah.
We definitely...
We have, like, I think probably, like, most families
or most people across the country
such varying opinions
on risk, and risk tolerance, and...
and trying to make it work for everybody.
I feel like you, um,
are sometimes the conscience of the family.
And pre-Covid, you talked about family distance.
You had this big family meeting together.
And you wanted all the sister wives
- and Kody... - Mmm-hmm.
to have a real, candid conversation.
Mmm-hmm.
Let's take a look at that conversation,
- and then let's get your reaction after it. - Okay.
I think after we moved to Flagstaff,
all of us were seeing fractures
in the family culture.
I feel like we signed up for something
when we decided to be a plural family,
and it just seems like we're all sort of like,
"Whatever, let's just let it happen.
We're gonna just roll with it."
And I don't like that,
so I'm gonna have a conversation with my family.
Do you think our family feels like it used to?
Like, when you first met us, Robyn,
does it feel like that in our family now?
Oh, since we've been to Flagstaff,
it's been different.
We're not doing anything together.
And it's super-stressful
when we do do stuff together, it's not easy.
I mean, just getting us together again
for a simple dinner took months.
Because we don't need each other as much,
we've lost something.
And I don't know what the solution is.
But there's something fundamentally going wrong,
and I feel like... I feel like we have tribalism.
[Meri] Because we are in four separate homes,
we just started escaping.
It was easy.
I feel like I'm on the outside looking in all the time.
- [Robyn] Really? - Yes.
And when I get together
for family gatherings, I'm like...
Why would I wanna go?
'Cause it's just gonna be a hostile environment,
and no one there even likes me.
[Christine] Yup, that's how I felt.
See, I think this is the danger
of spending too much time separate.
And maybe...
and this would be heartbreaking,
there are some of us who are like,
"Look, I don't want it any more."
All right, so, before the pandemic,
you already started feeling the isolation.
Why was it so important for you to call this meeting?
Why do you think this was happening?
You know, I just think it was sort of a natural evolution.
Our children were growing up,
we didn't need each other as much,
'cause when we have a lot of little children,
we needed each other so much
to just kind of manage day-to-day.
There wasn't as much in common,
we all have our own things going on.
There's a real, conscious effort
that needed to be made to get together,
and continue those common experiences.
And we just weren't doing it.
And in a polygamous family, that is a danger zone, right?
- When you start... - I think it is.
So, there's two danger zones.
One, you have to be conscientious
and be actively working.
And then two, don't spend too much time in your head
imagining things about the other people.
Those are the two big, big danger zones.
There was an awareness that I came to
with the family, that we had been united
in so much of what we had done.
- Let's say in Las Vegas. - Yeah.
We're in this cul-de-sac, we're next to each other,
we're united in what we've done.
We sort of hashed it out, and were forced to address it,
and sometimes we just didn't.
There's this perpetual, um...
A perpetual dishonesty
- that we dealt with... - Right.
in order to keep relationships good and healthy.
Moving to Flagstaff separated us.
- Mmm. - And at that point, it was like,
we don't have to do everything like we used to do it.
And that became sort of a prevailing attitude.
And that even became my attitude.
"Ladies, I'm gonna do this,
you choose what you're gonna do."
And they did.
I remember feeling like,
"You know what? This is kinda weird.
We're not seeing each other, we're not interacting a lot."
But at the same time,
I looked at it as we were just focusing on
trying to get settled in a new town, in a new home.
And so I was just kind of, like, letting it go,
and it became deeper.
Yeah, I'm sure everybody hates me all the time.
- [Robyn] What? - I feel like I'm on
the outside looking in all the time.
- Really? - Yes.
And then when I get together
for family gatherings, I'm like...
Why would I wanna go?
'Cause it's just gonna be a hostile environment,
and no one there even likes me.
What did you say to her to help her sort of heal?
Because she also uses the word "hostile" at this time, too.
It was a big word.
I was surprised at that, too.
"Hostile."
Um, I mean, I can see where...
Okay, so, what I feel like is sometimes,
when we haven't been around family for a while,
you can get kind of these monsters in your head.
She had said in that moment when we were at dinner,
she said, um, "I feel like I'm hated."
- Mmm. - And so I was like,
I'm gonna make sure she knows I don't hate her,
'cause that's a really big thing to sit there,
and wonder if people feel that way about you.
Yeah, it kind of set me back a little bit.
'Cause I didn't realize that she felt...
'Cause she's usually the life of the party.
We get together,
she's really, like, a vibrant part of our family gatherings.
I was surprised that she felt like that.
All of your sister wives were looking at you,
- very shocked and perplexed as to... - Yeah.
"I'm sorry, we had no idea you were feeling this."
I don't know why Christine is saying this.
That she feels like she's hated.
Like, that's... that's scary.
[Meri] I mean, I totally understand, you know,
going into a family function,
and just, like, not knowing where you stand.
Wow.
I mean, it's a shame that she feels like that.
I feel like Janelle deserved, and since she
was brave enough to have us all come together,
I wanted to be authentic for Janelle, too.
And that's exactly how I felt.
And it was probably all internal,
I'm not gonna say it's not.
Like, definitely, it was all a lovely conversation
I was having with myself most of the time.
And I just felt like before I would ever go to
any family gatherings or anything,
I just really hesitated, and I'm like,
"Does anyone really even like me?"
'Cause we wouldn't reach out to each other.
But I wouldn't reach out either.
And then, Kody and I had been having such a rough time
for so long,
and it's really hard to be in a room
with everybody,
and watch him be incredible in other relationships,
and know that your own is terrible,
and wonder, "What am I supposed to do?"
You know, what am I supposed to do in a room where
I feel like I really don't matter?
So I would go in there shielded too,
and worried about
just seeing Kody with his wives.
It was so hard.
The other part of this conversation
that you were having was really Christine's pain.
Saying that she wasn't liked, that she didn't, you know,
she has anxiety coming to these things.
What was going through your mind when she's revealing this?
Robyn's face was pure shock.
Yeah. It kind of surprised me that she was saying that.
Um, I didn't know that she felt like that.
And yet I also understood those feelings,
'cause I've felt like that
- before, and I... - Right.
You know, I think it's just a little bit of an insecurity
that she was having, and that I have had as well.
At that point, when you knew that
you could align with her emotions,
right, having had those insecurities before,
did you feel like you can talk to her and be like,
"Hey, we've all been there before"?
Yeah. And there were times
that I did reach out to her during those times,
I would send a text or try calling, or whatever, and...
and not always was that reciprocated.
Did you feel like
that conversation was highlighting
the relationship kind of not being okay
between Christine and Kody?
- Oh, I didn't... - You didn't know about that?
That's not something that I recognized in that moment.
You didn't know about it? Okay.
In that moment, I was just recognizing, like,
what we were talking about, what Janelle brought up.
"Hey, where are we?
Do we want to all be together?
Do we want to work together?" Like...
Since we've moved to Flagstaff things are kind of weird.
You said that your relationship with Kody
at this point was already a lot of fractures,
- a lot of strain, a lot of stress. - Mmm-hmm.
At that point, were you willing to work on
your relationship with him,
and all the other sister wives,
to create and keep this family unit together?
At that point of the dinner, yes.
At that point of the dinner I thought, "You know what?
This is a great wake-up call."
And we have wonderful times together.
And especially when the sister wives would get together,
not with Kody, you know, that was super-fun.
So this dinner was kinda like,
"Okay, I think that we really, honestly, can do this."
It was kind of like a wake-up call, little bit.
But then Covid happened.
Yup, and then we became way more separate with Covid.
[Sukanya reading]
If you don't wanna get this, then don't get exposure.
If you don't wanna get pregnant,
just don't have sex.
Was he forcing you to make a choice?
He would love it if we chose what he chose.
The family unity and the group just... [sighs]
Got thrown out of the window because of a virus.
Okay, we are rolling, and...
Um, so, Kody, there's a lot going on this season.
And we wanna get into a real, frank conversation
about what's going on.
But Covid shined a light differently.
Let's talk about the initial protocols.
- Mmm, yeah. - Um...
What were they?
Basically the schools sent all the kids home.
[Sukanya] Okay.
Uh, the government, the local government,
shut down businesses.
And basically mask mandates, you know.
And warnings. Warnings, warnings, warnings.
Um, and that's kind of where it all went.
Well, that kinda leads me to different households
within your family structure having different protocols.
I want you to watch these clips
- and then we'll talk about it after. - Sure.
Because of Covid-19, for a few months now,
we've been practicing Covid protocols.
Each one of you wanna be able to see me,
but I can be the only one that you see
besides your immediate children.
We've kinda got to a place where
not everybody's in agreement.
I will tell you that I can't go all summer doing this.
'Cause she doesn't wanna hear the facts.
She doesn't wanna hear it.
Kody seems to be taking it
to a whole different level of isolation.
[Christine] I know he would rather us
just stay home all the time.
But yeah, it's not gonna happen,
I have other kids to go see.
[Kody] It's not a breakdown in communication.
It's a breakdown in agreement on how we're supposed to
have our family behave during Covid-19.
I don't like telling them what to do,
because they just like to put me in my place.
But right now is one of those times
when I would like to be able to say, "Hey!
These are the rules, and you're gonna do 'em."
[Janelle] We've been so divided with Covid,
I'm beginning to worry the longer this goes on,
that we may not recover.
Okay, that was very, very poignant what Janelle said.
My biggest concern right from the beginning
when it was all this... This fear, you know.
"So many will die and your children are at risk."
- Well, I wanted to prevent the death of a child. - Yeah.
We can look back now and go, "Maybe we were too strict."
At the same time, I was like going, "Okay,
however long we have to quarantine,
however long we have to do this, what if there's other side effects?"
- You know, well, nobody wants to die. - Right.
But what if you have something where
it affects your lungs or your kidneys for long term in your life?
- Or it affects your brain or something like that. - So it was all the what if's
that kind of made you stick to your initial protocols?
Yeah, yeah. And this is [stutters] With the advice of my physician as well.
It's like, "Hey listen. You know, like..."
You know. "If you don't want to get pregnant, just don't have sex."
- Yeah. - I mean, sorry that's a...
That might be a crass um, analogy,
but it's like, if you don't want to get this,
then don't get exposure to it.
And you don't know where you'll get the exposure.
Robyn was right off the bat, "I am going to keep these rules
because my children are at a tender age.
They need their dad here."
Now I had two other wives.
One who was mostly compliant,
- but couldn't keep her kids compliant. - Yeah.
And then one who was just not compliant.
Specifically Christine was like, "I want to be free."
I think it would be awesome to get together.
I think it would be super, super cool.
I think it's sad to be separated.
I think it might be the safest and the most responsible thing to do to stay separated.
Am I a fan of it? No.
I think it's ridiculous that we're not getting together.
It's not realistic. It's just simply not.
Um, when Kody first we had this Zoom call together, and he goes, "You know
I can be the only one that goes from house to house to house."
I have kids that live everywhere and I can't.
I cannot just stay home.
- When kids say they need you, you go. - Yeah.
Was he forcing you to make a choice?
He would love it if we chose what he chose.
Don't get me wrong. We were super smart.
We followed the CDC guidelines. We kept the distance.
You know, every time we traveled, we would come back and tell Kody.
We'd quarantine afterwards so that he could come over again.
- So you were following protocols? - Yeah.
I was following the CDC protocols, just not Kody's.
Christine literally was like, "I'd rather see my other kids than see you."
Did you feel that looking back at it,
do you understand why Christine was doing what she wanted to do?
- I can be empathetic to it. - Yeah.
But I'm going to still maintain the rules.
Truely had kidney failures years ago. She nearly died.
That... That borderline death, that essence of loss in spite of not losing,
that essence of loss changed us.
And I am dead aware of it.
But we saw a lot of fractures like this year between you and Christine.
Now her sort of leaning in the direction
of her children during this time,
was that more fracturing that was happening
and more stress that was in the relationship that was sort of playing out?
Yeah, and with hindsight I might have been able to be more loose about it.
But every moment that I was dealing with it, I was like,
I was getting firmer and firmer in my resolve.
My sole goal was to keep everybody alive even if we were separated.
[sighs] Gosh, it's such a tough uh...
- Like I feel so torn by the situation. - Mmm-hmm.
I understand what Kody was wanting to do.
And I understand what Janelle and Christine were about.
But at the same time, I was like, "Why couldn't we have meshed those two?"
I just felt like this is the family culture that we have built
and we're destroying that.
So you felt like them not being able to come to a solution
- where we can bring everybody together-- - Yeah, and not just. Yeah.
Was in a way destroying what you had created as a plural family.
In the beginning, I didn't think of it that way.
In the beginning, I thought, "This will go away eventually."
But you know, how far are we into it and it still hasn't stopped.
Tell me what's going on.
[sniffles]
- I hate crying. - No, no, no, no.
Hold on. Can I get a tissue?
I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Robyn.
[sniffles] Um...
- Hurt. - Yeah, it's just...
It's just painful. It's just painful 'cause it's...
It felt like the family group and the unity, all of that stuff just...
Got thrown out of the window because of a virus.
Really surprised me and shocked me and really...
Um, it's really been disturbing.
Do you think COVID has changed the family or shined a light
on some of the issues that were already kind of existing there?
Um, you know? It did both.
I feel like it basically took that rug that we were shoving everything under
- and just everything was shown. - Yeah.
- I don't know. I'm just like, "Can we come back from this?" - Can you?
- I'm trying. I want to. - Yeah.
[Sukanya] Coming up...
That... Oh, I just wanted... Like steam [imitates explosion]
That's just not where our relationship is right now.
Oh, my heart breaks when I think about their marriage
and I don't want that.
[Sukanya] And later...
- It's hard to hear. - They can leave whenever they want.
[producer] Alright, can we stay as close as we can to the end of the arms?
Set here and quiet please.
- Marker. - [producer] In five, four.
Let's talk about loneliness, because that was something
that everybody felt during the pandemic.
And it was really spotlighted with all of the sister wives
- in separate times throughout this season. - Yep.
- Let's take a look at the clip and then, we'll talk about it. - Okay.
Because you were very authentic in your feelings
- of feeling alone and alienated during this time. - Yeah.
[Christine] The whole world's scared. They're scared to leave their house.
They're scared to trust people.
They're scared to be around people.
And then, they're lonely. They're so lonely.
I guess that's why I'm so concerned about Janelle.
[Janelle] Honestly, I sit and watch TV.
Like, I don't even want to pick up my phone and talk to anybody.
I don't text anybody. Like, I'm... I'm not good.
If I didn't have my girls with me during this whole COVID thing,
I'm sure I would have been going insane.
[Kody] I always saw one of the main benefits about plural marriage
is that anybody in the family would never actually suffer any real, true loneliness.
But the way that things have played out for our family,
that's not necessarily true.
My relationship with Meri is not the kind of relationship
where I'm going to talk with her everyday.
If I was to get sick, nothing would happen. I'd just be home alone sick.
Nobody comes over here anyway.
Um, we don't see each other.
[Christine] It seems like the only times that we really talk
to each other is when we have to.
It's lonely and I really miss everybody
when they're not around, but it's easier.
I am pretty sure that everybody is happy
with the fact we have COVID
and we had this excuse of not having to see each other.
So what are your thoughts about what you said? Pretty raw.
Yeah, I mean, I think...
Okay, maybe happy isn't the word,
but like Janelle was saying, it's easier.
Like it's easier not to have to work on out relationships.
Because relationships are hard.
You've got the ups and downs and so, you know, I think
when I said, "Happy," maybe...
Okay, maybe everybody wasn't happy about it.
What Meri just said and Kody's really like,
"So I'm back to hear everybody's really glad."
That... Oh, I just wanted... Like steam [imitates explosion]
'Cause I think that's so extreme
and I don't think it's true.
I don't think anyone's happy that we have an excuse.
- Why do you think he said that? - I don't know.
It's the craziest thing.
He's become so absolute. "Well, nobody wanted to be together anyway."
I just think that's an extreme position.
I got to imagine that being isolated,
because all of these relationships,
they're all very important to you.
How did that COVID and the isolation play into that?
I mourned. I really think it was kind of
- a mourning period almost. - A lonely period?
It was more than just lonely. It was just kind of like
-um, a sadness almost. Like a sadness. -Yeah.
'Cause you've had these people all around you all your life.
Yeah, and then all of a sudden,
here they are all choosing something different.
And our choices are so different that we can't be together.
So Kody wasn't coming to your house at all.
Was he even checking in on you? What was he doing at this time?
Well, we would text and have phone calls
you know, probably with Robyn more than anybody throughout the whole time.
- But it wasn't like Kody coming in-- - No.
To check in on you the way you wanted him to come in and check in on you.
No, but that's... That's just not where our relationship is right now.
Let's talk about Meri during this time.
You were very alone, but so was Meri.
And then Meri says that, you know,
"If I got COVID, nobody would even know."
And then, there seemed to be this like... This helplessness inside of her.
Which kind of frustrated me because if she got COVID, she should call me.
We're family. We're a family.
Look, I get everything is super strained with her and Kody.
I get that, but she's choosing a family identity,
- so let's be a family. - Yeah.
Does that put you in a weird place
that she's choosing the family identity
that Kody has kind of annexed himself from Meri
and then you're all caught in the middle of this?
How... How does that work in a polygamist family?
You know, I don't think it's that we're caught in the middle.
I do... We feel the waves
- when one relationship isn't working. - Okay.
It's hard to watch that happen
because Kody doesn't necessarily bring that
to my house when he comes there,
but you can feel that tension going on.
Do you ever get angry at Meri and say [grunts]
- No. - "You just made my life hell."
No, it's not about sides. It's that you hurt for both of them.
Let me ask you a question having observed relationships
- with other sister wives, right. - Yeah.
That relationship that he has with Meri,
has that had any impact on your decision making?
Oh, my heart breaks when I think about their marriage,
and I don't want that.
And I don't want to be in a loveless marriage.
I have no intention of living like that.
And if that's what my future looks like,
I'm not going to live that way.
[Sukanya] Coming up...
Did you and Kody ever have an honest conversation about the cat-fishing?
I thought that we did.
You emotionally have left and abandoned them in some ways, right?
Well [scoffs] abandoned. Please.
- Well... - Take the word back.
She was leaving my ass.
[Sukanya] This past year, Kody and Meri celebrated
their 30th wedding anniversary.
Let's take a look back through the years.
Hi.
[Meri] I was 19 and he was 22.
From the time that we met to the time that we got married was six months.
I guess I was just young and in love.
We had a big reception.
[Kody] We danced and she bit my finger when I was trying to--
[Meri] Because you shoved cake clear down my face.
So, I guess I should bring something up. [sighs]
I got into this place where I was
talking to different people on social media
and I got into this situation talking to one person
who really made me trust him.
He was saying really kind things. Flattering things.
This is really, really confusing
because I was really caring about him too.
Yeah. I wanted to meet him.
He never would meet me.
I started looking into him or who he said he was
and there was way too many... Way too many holes.
I thought I was talking to a man online.
It wasn't a man.
It was a woman pretending to be a man.
They really started pushing that I was not happy here.
The struggle I think that I have with it
is that I got shut out because of him.
That you didn't want to be out of the family.
You just wanted out of your relationship with me.
The old stuff wasn't working. It died.
Now we're in a place where we have to rediscover.
You'll be okay. I promise.
You might just have to hold my hand through it.
Oh [chuckles] would that make you feel safe?
I got to have both hands on the wheel to make you safe.
Damn, anything to get away from holding my hand.
I want to be able to trust him and him trust me.
I'm not in a place where I want a romantic relationship.
Robyn, stop. Stop defending Meri.
Stop acting like you're not getting the [bleep] end of the stick here.
- I'm not... I'm not. - Listen, this is pissing me off.
- She can take what everybody else doesn't want-- - Stop. No.
Instead of you taking the [bleep] end.
No, I don't... I don't... Will you stop?
I'm so angry I almost can't talk.
For all my marriage with Meri,
I felt like she unloads her emotions
into a burden that I'm supposed to carry.
I'm not carrying this burden.
'Cause if Meri and I really wanted to be together, we would.
What was your relationship like with Kody when you first met?
We were very much in love.
So, you're doing great. Janelle enters the picture.
- Mmm-hmm. - Give me a picture of what this was looking like.
So when Janelle came into the picture, it was a struggle for me.
Because now he's with somebody else.
Was it jealousy? Was it--
- Oh, absolutely. - Did you not know how to manage it?
Of course. Of course there's jealousy.
People ask all the time, "How can there not be any jealousies?"
Like, we never said there wasn't.
And I didn't know how to handle it.
And he didn't know how to handle me.
And she didn't know what the heck was going on. [laughs]
You know, and I think all three of us
had different ideals going into it of how it was gonna be.
- [Sukanya] Okay. - And it wasn't.
And then, you know, fast forward, Christine comes in the picture.
And how did that change the dynamic?
That was a struggle for me as well.
I actually had a harder time when Christine came.
[Sukanya] Why?
I don't know.
[Sukanya] And now there's Robyn.
And every time you see him
having a functional relationship with Christine,
a functioning relationship with Robyn, and...
And you're not having that relationship.
I was having the relationship with Kody back then.
I mean, we had, you know, we had our arguments, we had our difficulties.
And we would work through them.
- It was definitely a roller-coaster relationship. - [Sukanya laughs] Yeah.
All right so, Kody, tell me about your relationship with Meri.
Um, there's just nothing to talk about really.
- Wow, that's hard to hear. - [Kody] We were just, like, friends.
I mean, listen.
There was a hardness in our marriage
that was so difficult and so antagonistic,
I didn't know why we were in it.
It took a long time, a lot of counselling,
as we go through all of this for me to finally go,
"Meri, I don't... I just don't see us getting back together."
And why aren't we getting back together?
Because we will go back to the way we were before.
There's just no chance that I ever want that again.
But why not leave her at that point?
It's a double standard.
They can leave whenever they want.
I can't.
It is not a double standard because you emotionally have left
and abandoned them in some ways, right?
Well... [scoffs] Abandoned? Please.
- Well-- - Take the word back.
- [Sukanya] Okay. - Because I take offence to that word of "abandonment."
- [Sukanya] Emotional-- - When Meri had an affair,
she was leaving my ass.
'Cause she was like, "I am done with this.
I am done with you. I am done."
She made it clear to everybody that she was getting out of there.
She was done with us.
And she can't admit it now.
'Cause we rallied.
We circled the wagons as a family to protect her
when she realized that she'd been duped.
She was deceived. She was leaving.
She found something better.
She was leaving me for a better, richer man.
And, because we did that, in her own mind she doesn't even realized what happened.
She sees herself as a victim, which is true,
but that she had done nothing wrong.
And she would have never even been the victim
if she wouldn't have done something wrong.
Did you and Kody ever have an honest conversation about the catfishing?
I thought that we did.
And I thought that he... That he knew where I was coming from.
You know, like how that all happened and what happened.
Well, he thought you were leaving him for another person.
- Right, he did. - [Sukanya] Yeah.
- Yeah, and I knew-- - So he felt betrayed right there.
[Meri] Absolutely, and I get that.
I wasn't leaving.
But during that time,
because I was very much in a dark place,
I considered all my options.
Just because I was trying to figure out what I needed to do.
But I feel like Kody took it like that.
[Meri] Oh, he definitely did.
Did I start talking to this person?
Absolutely, I did.
Did I think that I was talking to a friend?
Absolutely.
It literally was not just, uh...
Um... "Okay, well, I'm gonna meet some dude online
and, uh, fall in love and want to leave my family."
A lot of people like to look at that as the defining moment in the fracture
and in mine and Kody's relationship.
And it wasn't.
Did he say, "I have an issue of trust with you now," as a result of it?
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I'm not ever gonna be in a conjugal relationship with her.
Because I'm not gonna go through that emotional torture ever again.
When did the physicality go out?
I don't know. Maybe a decade.
- A decade ago? - [Meri chuckles] Yeah.
You're telling me that you don't feel safe with Meri?
[producer] All right, everybody settle please. Any time.
It's been kind of interesting watching,
well, so many moments between you guys
- throughout the years. - Mmm-hmm.
But the one moment that really stuck out for me was
- the 30th anniversary date. - Yeah.
There was some really heartbreaking moments.
- I wanna take a look at it with you. - [Meri] Okay.
And then, I wanna get your opinion on what was happening there,
what you were trying to get across,
and where you thought Kody's head was.
Okay.
There's just been nothing going on between me and Meri.
And she interacts with family for the holidays and the birthdays.
We get together once in a while.
I see Meri once in a blue moon.
We quit dating and that's just probably
because I quit calling her to say let's go do something.
You and I have not been out together
since last year's anniversary.
Which is fine, it is what it is.
Are you broken-hearted by that?
Is it... Is it troubling you?
I've been waiting for you, honestly.
- And I'm not coming. - I know that.
I will ask him to come over.
"Hey, come over. Let's go do something."
He says no.
When I ask, he says no.
- table this-- - Do you know
that every time you put your hand on my hand...
how I feel?
I just wish you knew.
My discussion with Meri right now isn't about me telling Meri
that she has to have a divorce with me, that she has to leave.
I'm not doing that. I will never do that.
My faith doesn't allow me to.
My conscience doesn't allow me to.
And because I haven't done that,
there's always a chance that we might actually
get back together into full fellowship.
Like what we have done in the past 30 years or not,
it's 30 years.
This is not something I'm willing to walk away from.
- The relation-- - Meri, I'm not motivated by what we've had
to sit... Sit here and talk about saving it, though.
Nobody is stuck with me.
And they can all leave.
- And they-- - Well don't say that.
- [Kody] No-- - Because that makes people feel like you don't want them.
I want to stay and he still keeps saying it.
And I'm just like, "Dude, do you not see?
And do you not care if you do see?"
Did you ever get an answer to that question?
I think he sees it.
He and I have definitely had more conversations obviously since then.
- [Sukanya] Yeah. - And, you know, I think he sees it.
And I... I know where he is.
- And I think he knows where I am. - Where are you?
I mean, from where I am, like...
It's been, like, 31 years now that, you know, we've been married.
And, you know, I'm still committed.
I've made my choice.
- [Sukanya] Yeah. - I'm still here.
And I do still have hope.
- Even-- - So you feel like there is
a future for you and Kody as a married couple in full fellowship together?
I want there to be.
- But there hasn't been, all these years? - [Meri] Correct.
What keeps you emotionally invested in this relationship?
Because I love him.
Because when I pray, when I meditate,
because I have, you know, I believe in a God and when I pray...
And I'm like, "Okay, guide me. What am I supposed to be doing with my life?"
It is... I just feel peace when I think about staying in the family.
Because that's what I want.
- That's what I know is right for me. - [Sukanya] Mmm-hmm.
It's like she is still part of the family.
- But not-- - The larger family?
Yeah, the larger family. But I'm not ever gonna be
in a conjugal relationship with her.
Because I'm not gonna go through that emotional torture ever again.
And I'm not trying to make Meri sound bad.
It's just a bad match.
Listen, when I say certain things,
I'm just trying to find a way to be honest...
without being cruel.
It's one of those... One of those things.
If we weren't in plural marriage,
or felt religiously bound to stay together,
I don't... You know, things would have been a lot different
a long time ago probably.
We'll keep the best kind of relationship that we possibly can.
But I'm not telling her to kick rocks down the road.
I'm just telling her that she can still be part of the family.
We can... We can work this out.
So it seems like you're both in this space...
living friends.
But I don't understand it.
- I don't understand-- - Help me, I'm... I'm...
- Listen. - I'm in a monogamous relationship.
- Right. - And I know a lot of the viewers are like,
"Okay, I'm trying to understand."
I... I would think that physicality
would be a big part in your relationship,
- [Meri] Right. - In needs, in wants,
- in desires. - Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean, and that's definitely something that I miss.
You know, I miss emotional intimacy with him.
- Right. - You know, I miss conversations with him.
I miss...
- [chuckles] Physical intimacy with him. You know? - [Sukanya] Yeah.
Like, I would love it if he would hold my hand.
- [Sukanya] Yeah. - You know?
But that's just not where we are.
But when did the physicality go out?
It's... I don't know.
Maybe a decade.
- A decade ago. - [Meri chuckles] Yeah.
- Yeah. - [Sukanya] So I'm gonna go back to--
[laughs] Listen, we're getting, like, really...
I don't know how much we want to get into...
- Into this. - Are you willing to wait forever for Kody
to come full circle and be in full fellowship with you?
I have hope that he will.
And also, if he never does...
then, I'm gonna create my own peace and happiness
within the family relationships that I do have.
- [Sukanya] So it's the larger family? - Yeah.
It's the larger family that's keeping you here
with the hopes that Kody will one day be in full fellowship with you?
Like, this is my family.
- [Sukanya] Yeah. - Like, I don't understand...
I literally don't understand people who think,
"Well, just because you don't have this relationship with Kody,
why don't you just leave?
Why don't you just leave?"
Like, because I don't want to.
Like, I don't want to.
I don't... Like, it doesn't make sense to me when people ask me that all the time.
Well, the reason why I ask that
is because we see Christine sort of unravelling as well.
Because of the lack of intimacy--
- Sure. - and romantic relationship
- within her own committed relationship to Kody. - Right.
And how that is a non-negotiable thing for her.
And then, we have you. Right?
- Right. - [Sukanya] Who has been in this situation
for the last 10 years with Kody,
who is still fully committed to Kody and the family.
So it... It... It kind of doesn't make sense.
- Right. - So...
- That's why people have questions. - The only thing that I can say
is, between Christine and I, we just...
Like, I don't know what's in her head.
I don't know what she's thinking.
All I can say is we're two different people,
and we have two different sets of values,
and we have two different...
I don't know.
Like, we're just different people.
There are other wives that...
- Meri, for instance-- - [Christine] I know.
- I don't know how she does it. - that's been very clear--
- [Christine] I know. - that she has not been intimate with Kody
for the last... More than 10 years.
I know. I don't know how she does it.
I don't know how she does it.
I think we just both have...
I don't know, she does...
I guess she's more fine with it than I am.
It seems like Meri, looking back at that clip especially,
she does wanna have a romantic relationship with you.
She does wanna heal.
But there's a point where intimacy is just damage.
It... It... It's misleading.
It... It's an... To... To have intimacy in a relationship
where there... There is no real safety.
Oh.
Yeah.
I'm not going there.
You're telling me that you don't feel safe with Meri?
No, and I never will again.
I will be her friend.
- Wow. - [Kody] I will do what I can to protect her.
We'll build a house for her out on Coyote Pass.
But I'm never gonna feel safe in an intimate place.
She hurt you to the core.
She hurt you to a place where it cannot be fixed.
Is that what you're telling me?
And that wasn't from the catfishing.
It was just... The catfish just woke me up out of the, um...
Out of the daze I guess.
So Meri's committed to staying with the family.
She has a relationship with the larger family,
the kids, Robyn, and--
And a friendship with me.
[Sukanya] And a friendship with you.
Is... Is that gonna be enough for all of you at this moment? At this time?
I don't think that's enough for anybody.
But everybody makes their choices.
[Sukanya] Next time on Sister Wives: One on One.
I'll do whatever it takes to get my kids back together with everybody.
You were asking why our nanny was able to hang out with our kids.
What does the nanny do?
Do you feel like you're an easy target?
Oh, yeah. I get along with Kody. [chuckles]
There's a sort of pecking order.
And Robyn's like, "Why are you this way?"
You really are the only one
that's having a fully functioning relationship with Kody.
That must bother them.
It makes me angry.
[crying] I'm not gonna talk to you.
I don't want polygamy because I don't believe in it for me anymore.
We've got these great memories.
And we've got these beautiful children.
And you hate polygamy.
What the crap?
Are we ever gonna have an intimate marriage again?
And he just said, "Probably not."
I didn't want to be intimate.
Because I had somebody who was stabbing me in the back.