[Sukanya] Previously on "Sister Wives, One on One."
When we were all first married, personality conflicts
between Meri and I, what they were,
it was...
pretty volatile. It could have been.
It was pretty volatile.
How did Meri fight that was different than Janelle?
She's just willing to scrap.
Willing to scrap.
Just like -- and in front of anybody.
Kody and Janelle failed to recognize that possibly,
some of the issues that I had in polygamy could have stemmed
from the fact that,
oh, they wanted to get married on my birthday.
They had planned to get married on my birthday.
When you ask me to go back in the past and think about it,
my head starts to spin.
Like there was nothing I could do.
I apologize that at your dark time, I wasn't there.
The dark time was because you weren't there.
You don't need this from me, but I tell you,
I forgive you for that.
How was this experience for you?
This apology may not be easy in any way.
But the last time we were sitting here,
you called her your favorite ex-wife.
-What happened? -We were under the illusion
of betrayal.
What I should have been in the place,
when I felt like she had done something that offended me,
I should have just let it go.
-And I needed to apologize -- -What did she do to offend you?
[suspenseful music builds]
This is "Sister Wives, One on One."
I'm asking you a simple question.
-What was that? -I don't know.
-We still can't -- -What was the phone call?
It's just we, like, Meri and I,
when this unraveled -- -You keep going like this.
-Was it a phone call? -Like, oh, any phone call.
Every phone call, you know, it just it doesn't go well.
OK, was there a particular phone call...
-Oh, yeah. -...that you're talking about?
There's one I was like, I -- I -- I like...
Yeah, I got [laughs] --
I get really tired of Jenn trash-talking me because
I don't, Jenn doesn't know me. -OK.
This is what Jenn knows, is whatever Meri's told her.
So Jenn's just trash-talking, trash-talking, trash-talking.
I'm on the phone with Meri once, and I said,
"I don't think Jenn's safe."
She's -- I think she's culpable for part --
partially culpable for our breakup, things like this.
And she gets mad, hangs up on me, doesn't talk to me again.
So we're going through lawyers because every time
we talk, it's an escalation to some kind of problem.
Do you think he was surprised to hear that he was the reason
for your dark time?
I don't know if he really
grasped that.
I'm not sure if he...I mean, I feel like I was pretty direct,
but I don't know if he really accepted it.
Maybe he did. I don't know.
Yeah, but what was the dark time?
Oh, we all know the dark time.
That was, like, the -- the legal divorce, and that was
the fact that our -- our, you know, relationship,
we didn't have much of a relationship.
That was, you know, the spiral into the, you know,
the catfish episode. You know what I mean?
Like, it was just all of that, and it was, like,
a couple-year process, you know, and, like... -Mm-hmm.
...just trying to come out of that because, like,
you get in this dark space, and...
it's really hard to come out of, you know?
I -- I'm sorry that she had a dark time in Vegas.
I can't be told that I'm the reason,
because I completely disagree with that.
But I will apologize for not being there for you
when you were going through your dark time.
There was a year of time there where I was struggling
in my relationship with Meri. -OK.
I was going to Robyn while she was pregnant with our --
our youngest, trying to get some consolation.
And Robyn said, "I don't have the energy to give you.
I'm creating this child inside of me."
But Robyn...
was the witness to my suffering in this relationship with Meri
that had finally gotten too dark to reconcile.
And it was, I mean, I had
a year there of that experience.
When Meri realized what she was under, this is just my part
of the story, what had really happened,
Meri had a wake-up call, I think, that made her go,
"Oh, I wanna stay with this family
and work things out."
And I had been given every reason to reconsider it,
and I did.
Did she ever apologize to you for what happened in Vegas?
And if she didn't apologize, is that why you were
testing her and testing her and testing her,
because you didn't know what else to do? -I...no.
I believe Meri thinks she's apologized.
-I don't remember it. -[Sukanya] OK.
So I -- I can't say that she didn't.
I won't say that she didn't.
-But I -- I just don't remember it. -[Sukanya] Mm-hmm.
-And, um -- -How do you not remember something like that?
Like, I believe that it didn't happen,
but I think that Meri said she did apologize.
Did you apologize to Kody for your part in the dark time?
Not in that conversation, no.
That's not what that conversation was for.
-That conversation was-- -Will you apologize
to Kody for your part in the dark time? -Oh, I have.
I have. Yeah, no,
we've had a lot of conversations about it, um.
And whether or not he believed or accepted it,
that's -- that's on him, but I -- I did.
-Yeah. -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Do you want to talk about Meri's ride-or-die friend, Jenn?
Because she seems to bring out
a lot of different sides of Meri.
-We wanna take a look at this clip... -Ooh.
-...and then we'll get your opinion on what happened. -Can --
can Jenn exist without trash-talking me?
-That's my question. -I don't know.
-Let's take a look at the clip. -All right, let's see --
see if she's funny without trash-talking me.
Jenn's definitely my ride-or-die, 100%.
She and I have been best friends for, like, 12 years.
[Jenn] Time for you to end the nice-girl era.
Like, it's not benefiting you. It's only benefiting him.
-Yeah, it is. -So then why are you doing it?
[sighs]
'Cause I don't wanna be a bitch.
I just feel like it's important for you to have
bitch lessons so that you can say the things that sometimes
maybe you think, but then you're like,
"Oh, that shouldn't come out of my mouth."
And it should -- it should come out of your mouth.
Repeat after me. You do not control me.
-You do not control me. -Less smile.
-Oh, you don't control me. -Ooh, I like that.
That was actually really bitchy.
-Bitch. -[gasps]
Comb your [bleep] hair.
Comb your [bleep] hair, Kody.
That one felt like, like, it came deep from your soul.
I'm very proud of you.
So what are you thinking?
Well, Meri's always had her voice.
She's always done what she wanted.
She's always pushed...
like, tried to push me around when we were together.
So I don't know why she's, Jenn's like,
"You gotta get your voice back."
-They're acting like -- -Well, did she need
bitch lessons then if she was already had her voice?
Well, no, I mean, having your voice does not make you...
a B-word.
-OK. -OK, [laughs].
You could say it.
[Kody laughs] Eh.
Like Meri, Meri always had her voice, she -- I --
Jenn acting like Meri doesn't have a voice or something
like that, Meri's never been shutdown-able.
It's like, I don't know what she's talking about.
Kody actually said that you've always had your voice.
So did she really need to have bitch lessons?
Because in the relationship, he said you've always
spoken your mind.
I think that there was a time, definitely,
that I spoke my mind.
And then I realized that that was not the best way to go.
And so I swung completely over to the other side.
I wasn't in an emotionally
safe place, either in my relationships
or even with myself, to do that.
And so I felt like there was a long time that I didn't.
When was that part of you that completely shut down?
-When was that time? -I would say that was in the Vegas years.
So that was during your dark time?
Yeah. Prior to that as well, though.
-OK. -Yeah.
So you just felt like you didn't value yourself
or you felt like you didn't value your opinion or...? -No, it was...
I thought the best way to handle it would be to not rock
the boat, don't say anything, don't put myself out there,
and just do what I was supposed to do.
And I think our relationship is so good because of this.
It doesn't matter what my feelings are,
it doesn't matter what I say,
and it doesn't matter what I think.
We're still friends.
We're still friends, and I don't get punished
for having a thought.
When you say "punished for having a thought,"
were you punished prior for having a thought
and having an opinion? -It felt that way, yeah.
-Punished, like... -Excluded?
Yeah, either kicked out of the club,
emotionally, like, rejected.
There was a lot of -- a lot of different
situations that, in my opinion,
I was not accepted into.
Why do you think Kody doesn't like Jenn?
Um...
I think that Jenn speaks her mind and she doesn't let
anybody control and manipulate her.
I don't think he likes someone who's so strong
and so strong-willed
and so outspoken with their opinion.
He needs a yes-person, a "Yes, yes, yes, you're right,
let me bow down a little bit and let me kiss your feet."
I think that would not be Jenn or that kind of a...
So I -- I am very much
an outspoken person. -[Sukanya] OK.
And I think Kody forgets how much time
we actually spend together.
So there's times where conversations have been had
or he'll text or he'll call or something happens.
-And I'm literally there, I'm around. -Right.
And so the true Kody then shines through.
And there's times where he's said and done things that were
really not OK.
There's like this undertone of, "Well, this is my expectation.
Therefore, this is what's going to happen."
And if you don't agree with it, then like,
there's like this disdain.
Yeah, I don't trust Jenn,
but it doesn't matter because
Meri and I are no longer together.
And if Meri feels like Jenn's got her back,
then that's great.
Jenn wants to sit and trash-talk me.
That's the first offense.
Whether she's got Meri's best interest in mind, I don't know.
Maybe, here's the thing --
maybe people just don't think the plural marriage is good
and Meri wasn't happy in plural marriage and that was
Meri's best interest in mind.
-Well, do you blame... -I don't think Jenn was --
Do you blame Jenn...
-No, I think -- -...for Meri leaving?
-[laughs] No. -OK.
I mean, Jenn just had her part in whatever advice she was
giving Meri. I mean, I think --
-Did Jenn influence, have some sort of influence over Meri. -Sure, I believe she did.
Meri's actions to leave the family?
Possibly, yes.
I mean, like, listen, it's not my story to tell anymore,
and I don't trash-talk Jenn anymore.
It's verboten.
What do you think about Meri's BFF, Jenn?
-You know her, or did you know her? -Yeah.
No, we knew her.
We've -- I -- we've known her for a long time.
She used to be the lady who would come and spray
our houses for bugs. That was their business.
Oh, so she owned a pest-control company?
Yes, yeah.
And I remember that she became really good friends with Meri
during that time when all the catfishing
and everything was going on.
And a lot of drama was going on
in Kody and Meri's relationship.
And then, I will say, she said to me one time,
"Well, I told Meri that she should, you know,
just take all the money and -- and leave."
And I -- at that point,
I sort of ended that professional relationship
with her because I felt uncomfortable.
So you told Kody what was said between you and Jenn?
Yeah, I must have.
Because he probably wondered why I was ending the, like,
why I was looking for a different person.
[Sukanya] Mm-hmm.
Did you tell Meri to take the money and run?
I sincerely regret not telling Meri to leave.
But I never told her to take the money and run.
And what's funny, too, is I have never heard this story
until literally this year.
He's like, "Meri, I have to tell you something.
Jenn's not good for you because this is what she did."
And I'm like, "She never told me that."
Why would she go tell Janelle that she told me that?
Like, she never told me to...
take the money and run.
Oh, he's like, "Well, Janelle said that.
Janelle told me when it actually happened."
I'm like, "It never happened."
And then I did go and talk to Jenn about it.
Maybe she could have said it.
But I don't think that Jenn's intention back then
was to have Meri leave.
From what I remember, I don't know, it seems like Meri was
still, really wanted to be part of the family and was really
loyal towards being part of the family.
-So a real friend wouldn't counsel in that way seriously. -Mm-hmm.
I think that if she said it, it was probably be more
of like a [sarcastically] "You should totally,
totally take the money and run," you know?
She's very sarcastic.
She probably did say it, but I would say in a sarcastic
way if she did. But I don't know. -Mm-hmm.
-Yeah. -She actually denied ever saying that
take-the-money-and-run comment. -I remember very clearly.
So I know what I -- what I remember.
-And it was a very long time ago. -Mm-hmm.
So who knows?
But it doesn't really matter now -- I think Jenn's great.
-I think she's wonderful for Meri. -Yeah.
Did she ever come to you and ask you to help Meri during
this dark time that Meri was going through in Vegas?
No, she never --
we never really talk about that.
I was at Janelle's house, and she's like, "Is Meri OK?"
And I said, "No, she is not OK.
She is definitely not OK. She needs you guys."
And then I left Janelle's and I went to Meri's
and I said, "Just so you know,
"I was talking about you behind your back.
"I told her that you guys --
that they need to come and talk to you."
And she goes, "Well, that'll never happen."
I assumed that it was like...
-The sister wives were a lot closer? -Yeah.
Yes, I really did.
And so I didn't know when I first told Janelle,
"Hey, you should, you guys should go talk to her."
So once I finally started to realize that
and I saw how unhappy she was,
and I saw that no matter what she did and what she tried,
I mean, she got a divorce for Pete's sake,
just to like make things better for everybody else.
And it put her own relationship in complete turmoil
at the same time she was becoming an empty-nester.
And not a single person was there to, like,
help her through that. -[Sukanya] Mm-hmm.
I mean, you don't go and frame your marriage certificate
to the person that you just got married to
when the sister-wife is divorced, like, it was -- -Yeah.
Sorry, it was just so insane to me
that they weren't there for her.
Who made up that part of take-the-money-and-run?
It doesn't, I don't know, because it doesn't make sense.
The thing is, I literally never stopped spraying
any houses. -She never stopped.
I sold my company, and they all continued to be my customers.
To me, it feels like that this is a story that has just
recently been fabricated for whatever reason.
[Sukanya] Coming up...
Meri also said that you weren't there for her
in Vegas during her dark times, that you were somebody that
she would lean on, needed,
and you weren't there for her.
Well, that's a different -- that's different than what she said in the past.
Love it when I find out things from you [chuckles]
instead of from her.
When Meri was sitting on the sofa,
she said the same thing,
that she would share things with Robyn
and it would get back to you.
I think they're scapegoating Robyn.
That's bull[bleep].
-[Sukanya] Can I ask you a question? -Mm-hmm.
Do you think that you could sit down with other sister wives
and also, you know, like Robyn,
and have a conversation together?
-Just you and her? -Just me and Robyn?
And not trigger each other?
Robyn and I could have a conversation
and not trigger each other. -Really?
[Meri] I think so.
She and I had a good relationship.
Everybody saw it. We had a good relationship.
But, you know, that just kind of,
over the years, disintegrated. There was a lack of trust.
-So what dissolved the trust? -Oh, my gosh.
There -- you know, the fact that, um...
she wasn't around for me, I felt like that she wasn't
around for me in, you know, my dark time back in Vegas.
How wasn't she there for you
during your dark time in Vegas?
I think that she was trying, but there was, like,
certain things that I would say to her that would
be found out.
I don't know what you're talking about, can you --
I would have conversations with her.
And then, my private conversation,
things would be found out.
Other people would find out.
Meri also said that you weren't there for her
in Vegas during her dark times, that you were somebody
that she would
lean on, needed,
and you weren't there for her.
Well, that's a different -- that's different than what
she said in the past.
So, it's her new narrative.
I mean, she used to say that, that I was there for her.
Now she's saying I'm not, I wasn't, so...
-Do you think you were there for her? -Yeah.
I do.
-Yeah. -She said there was a betrayal of trust that happened.
Like, she would say some things to you...
Uh-huh.
...and then those things would somehow get out.
Don't know what she's talking about as far as, like,
things that I supposedly...
She just felt like it was a violation
of her trust with you. -OK.
Well, that's news to me.
Love it when I find out things from you,
[chuckles] instead of from her.
You've actually talked about your own trust issues
with Robyn, right? -Yeah -- yeah.
And you've been very, very vocal about that.
Yes, yes.
You two had date night where you both discussed how moving
forward as a family would have some challenges, but you guys
were opening to talking about some of those challenges... -Yeah.
-...and how to push through as a family. -Yeah.
So let's take a look at this conversation
and then we can discuss.
I feel betrayed by Robyn, just betrayed.
You know, there's things I confided in her,
and then she would tell Kody, and I'd get in trouble.
As much as
she talked about wanting to be a sister wife,
there was just not enough
proof to show that, because you need proof.
Like, a sister wife relationship is one that
you have to be able to trust the other person,
you know, and I couldn't.
I -- [sighs] -- I don't know.
I'm a person that I like to be able to think that
we can all get along in this world.
Eventually, everybody does need to get together,
and I don't know what that looks like,
and I don't know what that would take.
Would it take therapy? I don't know.
Oh, I'm gonna start with Christine.
Talking about Robyn and saying that they were...
-And getting in trouble? -[Sukanya] Yeah.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no.
Robyn wasn't coming to me with complaints.
I was experiencing a life with Christine that was pissing me off.
Anytime I came after Christine like, "Hey, listen, your crappy
attitude isn't helping us," wasn't because of something
Robyn said or what Meri or Janelle said.
It was specifically because I was in this relationship
with Christine getting upset because of the way
our relationship was.
But why would she feel that
Robyn was repeating what she was saying?
Obviously, she was having a candid conversation
with another sister wife about you.
And then if it got back to you,
how did it get back to you?
I -- there was no time when
I ever felt like Robyn was betraying
somebody else's trust.
-And Christine -- -But Christine feels that way.
Great, she feels that way, but I -- I'm really like --
I'm, like, going everything that I experienced with Christine,
I experienced with Christine.
I didn't think like she was doing well in plural marriage
and it was bugging me.
We wouldn't go out and sit in the backyard and eat because
Christine was worried Janelle would come over.
-And I'm like, "Well, Christine, that's our family." -Yeah.
So it's like, if you and me want time out, let's go out.
If we're having stuff with the kids,
then let's go out in the backyard
and if Janelle comes over, that's fine.
But Christine isn't the only one saying this.
When Meri was sitting on the sofa,
she said the same thing,
that she would share things with Robyn
and it would get back to you and get back to other people.
I think they're scapegoating Robyn.
That's bull[bleep] because I think
that all my problems with Meri
were me and Meri having problems, not Robyn tattling.
That's if you're trying to help someone and help
a relationship, then that person can mediate in front of you,
but if you're gonna talk about, like, so if there
was a situation where she was trying to help
Kody and I at the same time, OK, yeah.
But if I'm gonna talk to her and then she's gonna go
behind my back and talk to Kody about it, then you can't trust
someone who does that. So I trusted her,
and I opened up to her, and I did let her know what was
close to my heart, that he was whatever, he wasn't being
present in my kids' life, and he wasn't, like, just part
of that -- he just wasn't part of it.
-Got it. -And then...
I don't know what she would tell him,
but it wasn't like he would ever come to me and be like,
"Ah, you know, Robyn told me about something
"that you told her, and let's talk about that
and let's -- let's, like, fix that."
No, it was he'd come at me with anger.
And so I don't know what she told him,
but she did tell him
without me knowing she was gonna tell him.
I just, like, it was just done in a way
that instead of helping, it just really hurt. -OK.
Christine and I are no longer together
because of Christine and I. Has nothing to do with Robyn.
She's being a total hypocrite here.
I'm sorry to say that, because she's talking out both
sides of her mouth.
She's talking about getting the family together,
but she never wants to have
a relationship with Meri or Robyn.
Double-minded completely. It's OK.
That's her life.
And I'm just not gonna let it bother me,
but it does bother me when they try to blame Robyn
for what was wrong in them.
I'm just gonna ask this one more time.
-[Kody] What? -Did Robyn ever tell you things
that were told to her in confidence?
-I'm just gonna ask this one more time. -What?
Did Robyn ever tell you things
that were told to her in confidence?
The catfishing stuff was probably stuff
she brought to me, yeah.
But I don't know that she was told that in confidence
or if she saw that online.
[scoffs]
That's funny. They're all gone.
They've been gone for years.
They're still blaming Robyn for it.
Why don't they just blame themselves?
They weren't happy in the marriage
and that they and me, each one of them,
couldn't work out the relationship.
We actually had a conversation with him in the Vegas kitchen
and tried to explain something to him
that he just refused to accept, and it was during the catfish.
We tried very hard to, like, give him
all the information he was asking for,
and because he didn't wanna hear it,
he shut her down, and that was the end of it.
She's like, "There's no point. There's just no point in trying
to have a conversation with him."
And so it was in moments like that that, OK, well, I guess
you don't want to have a conversation with me.
You don't want to hear what actually is going on.
You already have a different narrative in your head
of what's going on.
So I'm -- I'm doing this one on my own then.
-So this is during your dark times when you're having... -Yeah.
-...a conversation publicly with another man? -Yeah.
-[Sukanya] Right?
So you're having a conversation publicly?
I mean, it wasn't a public conversation until
the catfisher decided to, you know, make it public.
[Sukanya] OK, OK.
They were not public conversations.
[Sukanya] They were not public conversations, but they did
become public and --
The version that
he wanted to, he, she, whatever, wanted to tell
is what became public. -[Sukanya] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, not my version and not the truth.
But what were you trying to explain to Kody in the kitchen
that he didn't want to hear?
What was actually happening with that.
That this person was,
like, kind of coming after me and kind of coming after us
and there's, like, us as a family and the manipulation
that was all involved in that
and the lies that were all involved in that.
Do you understand why maybe Meri could have a right
to distrust you?
No.
-After everything that's happened, you don't feel that... -No.
...Meri has any grounds to distrust you?
No, I do not. I absolutely do not.
I have been, I have had Meri's back.
She said, I'm gonna go back to this again,
she said in Vegas when she was going through her dark times,
she leaned on you. -Yeah.
And when she shared things with you,
it would end up coming back to her.
All I know is that she was having a conversation online
about flowers and texting and music and flirting.
And I was like, "She is struggling."
Get your butt over there.
Figure this out with her.
That's what I was doing, OK?
She's sitting here saying that she can't trust me
'cause of this or that or the other.
I had her freaking back, OK?
I was sitting there watching everything that was happening,
and I was worried about her. And I was saying,
"She kicked you out? You go stay in another room.
"You have the conversation with her.
"You don't come over here. You go work it out with her.
She's being taken advantage of."
Even if I didn't know it was a catfishing situation,
even just somebody sitting there taking advantage
of someone who was struggling, a woman who's struggling.
I was like, "You get your butt over there, and you talk
to her -- you work this out.
I was talking to her. "What is this?
"What is this conversation you're having?
Why are you talking to this person?"
-Mm-hmm. -I was trying to --
I was being open with both of them.
-I was talking to both of them. -Mm-hmm.
If people wanna say, if she wants to say that
somehow I did something wrong there, that is fine.
I don't have a problem with that because
I know what my intentions were. -Mm-hmm.
Robyn did, Robyn would come over and talk to me about it.
And, like, "What's going on? What's going on?"
And I would tell her what's going on.
But then other stuff would happen,
and other stories would be out there, and other
communications, supposedly, you know,
would happen, and -- and...
So you put two and two together, and you're saying
that maybe Robyn was the leak?
I'm not saying I know who was the leak.
I just know that...
You know what? No.
There were times that
I would have a conversation
with Robyn... -[Sukanya] Mm-hmm.
that the catfisher would find out about.
And it was specifically only with Robyn.
-Nobody else knew. -Correct.
So that's why you said earlier that you were feeling betrayed.
There was a huge lack of trust there because my private
conversations that I was having with Robyn,
and I don't -- I don't believe
that she did it intentionally to hurt me.
I think she did it to try to help the situation,
but she kept making it worse and kept making it worse,
um, and by -- by sharing the information.
And I even kept saying to her, "Don't -- don't talk.
Don't talk."
When she was talking, who was she talking to?
A friend that she had at the time
that was in communication with the -- with the catfisher.
And this is so weird. Why are we still freaking
talking about this? -Well, what did she say --
It's, like, 10 years old.
No, but what did she say when you continued to talk about it?
I would ask her not to,
and she's like, "I'm trying to help."
I'm like, "But you're not helping.
It's not helping. Just stop talking."
Meri did say that things would get back to other people that
she was sharing with Robyn.
Oh, this was probably all divorce stuff
with, oh yeah, sure.
Sure, the whole catfishing thing.
Yeah, Meri had a relationship with a man
that was inappropriate. I'm sorry, that's 10 years old.
If Meri's bringing that up here,
I had the right to know.
But this is why they feel that they can't be friends
or trust Robyn.
If your wife's having an affair
and your other wife tells you,
that's my business, no matter what!
You can't blame Robyn for not telling me about an affair.
That is so hypocritical.
Meri was being a hypocrite during that entire thing,
and we circled the wagons to protect her, OK?
And -- and it would have all worked out fine
if Meri and I would have had a good relationship,
because it was all forgivable.
But if your wife is having an affair
and your other wife knows it,
I was being kicked out of the house.
It's like, don't put that on Robyn.
That's totally hypocritical.
That's not some action of Robyn's where she was
causing problems.
Robyn has been the moral compass in this entire family
since she entered it.
Let's move on to a happier place,
back to the BFF spot.
Back to the best friends who have been helping each
other this past year, especially you,
helping her with dating.
-Trying to figure out what fits you, the new Meri. -Yep, yep, yep.
You've met this guy named Ron, and sparks started to fly,
and things started to feel good.
So let's take a look at you and your journey
of finding new love, Meri. -OK, OK.
I think you're -- you're very witty, you're very funny.
I've kind of learned that today.
-Yeah? -So it's good to -- yeah.
-It's good to spend time. -Just today?
-I learned it to a new level today. -[laughing]
So...
-I hope that's not a bad thing. -But no.
No, not a bad thing. No, it's good to --
this is why you spend time with someone.
-Right -- right. -Because you learn a lot and you get to know them
and, you know, little things that you never knew. -Right -- right.
[Meri] Ron and I definitely have a connection.
We both have shared with each other that, yeah,
there's -- there's a reason
why we're in each other's lives.
What that reason is, you know, remains to be seen.
I am so happy right now, Ron.
I love that.
Yeah.
I'm happy too.
This is a good place to be.
-Meri, you look so happy. -I am happy.
No, tell me about Ron.
You look happy, like, really happy.
-And comfortable. -Ron is a really cool guy. Very comfortable.
I'm very comfortable hanging out with him.
Do you like him like him?
You know what? Ron and I are
building this really cool friendship.
-OK. -Yeah, it's really cool.
Like, I really love that I can
be myself around him.
Like, I literally can just be myself around him.
-Do you like Ron? -I do like Ron.
He's a really nice person.
Jenn, do you hope Ron becomes more than a friend for Meri?
If that's what Ron and Meri want, then yes.
Meri, is that what you want?
I mean, have you looked at him?
[laughing]
He's cute.
You know, you're flirting, you're loose.
-That means that you're like -- -I'm comfortable with him.
-I'm very comfortable with him. -OK.
And I enjoy spending time with him.
Comfortable meaning you've held hands, you've kissed?
Have you kissed? Can I ask that?
-You can ask, sure. -Will you answer?
No.
I won't.
So when's your next date with Ron?
Ron and I don't date.
Ron and I hang out and enjoy each other's company.
OK, call it what you want.
-When's your next "hangout," Meri? -OK.
Meri, when are you "hanging out" with your "friend" Ron?
Does that make you feel better?
I'm gonna have to ask Ron how he feels about
this conversation. -Yeah, yeah.
-That was so cute. -That was cute.
-Yeah! -Oh, I mean, there's more.
I hope that they just don't end friends.
I hope that...that was so cute.
There was definitely chemistry. That was so cute.
You don't sit there and jump like you did.
Stop it, David.
Yeah, you guys didn't have -- they want to take it slow.
Like, you know, slow, be friends,
get to know each other. -I used to thought I was slow.
-You guys were not slow. -You were slow?
No, we were not slow.
So what do you think about Meri dating?
-It looked like a lot of fun. -Yeah.
-There's some good energy there. -[Sukanya] Yeah?
Yeah, it looked great.
It's this exciting experience when you first meet people.
I mean, it's like,
it's just really cute. -That's lovely.
And whether they work or not, it's like there's this
excitement that you kind of get watching it.
I haven't seen a lot of that in a long time,
you know what I mean? It's so it's fun to --
it's like seeing her in a happy element.
-It's great. -Yeah -- when was the last time you saw her like that?
Was it like that when you first met?
Like, literally, OK, I've never seen this,
but right after my apology, Meri and I sat and started
chatting about things, and it was fun.
So there's, yeah.
-There's always a door that's open there. -Oh, so long --
but we can get on the phone and we, if Meri and I,
even in that last chat we had, we caught ourselves escalating
to triggers, trigger, trigger, and there's like,
wait, wait, wait, wait. Meri, I'm so sorry.
-Yeah, we got -- -I didn't, I didn't mean to,
and she's like, "Oh, we caught ourselves."
It's like, "OK, we got to stop this."
-We got -- -If you can acknowledge that
that does happen, maybe you can stop yourself and leave
the door open to a possible friendship.
Maybe.
When you're in a space where there's so much trust has been
harmed, you wanna, you wanna trust.
You wanna be friends, if you can.
There's -- there's reasons why you should be,
but it doesn't take much
to just suddenly feel betrayed
over again.
Being friendly is vital for our lives and our children,
but friendship is based on trust.
And -- and I know that what will happen, I don't know,
what'd you say, Ron? -Mm-hmm, his name is Ron.
Meri and Ron, if they continue on,
they will build a relationship on trust, you know?
But -- but we're past that. [stammers]
Trust, once murdered, cannot be resurrected, usually.
If you can't be friends, can you get to a place where
you can at least be friendly?
Oh no, we're definitely friendly.
We are definitely friendly.
Do you think there will be a time where
Kody and his ex-wives can actually
be friends? -I don't know. I don't know.
I think it would be really cool.
And I mean, I've said it to him from the beginning of
our divorce, you know, the beginning of the end,
you know, I've said it to him, "Let's just be kind,
let's not do this."
And if he and Robyn want to have a relationship
with me and want to like move forward from here on out
and be kind, I would be open to it.
So is this an invitation to them, right now,
that you're giving? -Yeah.
Absolutely, it's an invitation.
I've had that invitation open from day one.
From day one.
Betrayal is an illusion.
And when I have sorted this out long enough,
this idea that -- the illusion of betrayal in divorce,
or the illusion of betrayal in relationships,
maybe I'll be OK, but I'm -- I am not there yet.
Going back to the apologies,
would it have been safe for them
to come to you and talk about
why they wanted to leave?
Coming up...
Do you feel that more people in the family need to step up
and do some apologizing?
No.
Like, I feel like Kody was probably the one who really...
Kody was the head of the family.
I think he could have done a lot better job.
Do you feel like there's anything that you need
to apologize for?
Apologize to either Kody, Janelle, Meri,
or even Robyn?
Going back to the apologies,
would it have been safe for them
to come to you and talk about
why they wanted to leave?
I mean, no, at the time it probably wouldn't have,
because, um...
I -- I didn't know I was doing something wrong.
I didn't know I felt contemptuous.
I didn't know I was angry.
Even though I probably knew I just wasn't allowing myself
to be conscious of it.
Does it matter if they accepted the apology or not?
It makes me feel better if they do accept it.
But if they don't accept it, I'll just say it again.
After all this, do you accept Kody's apology
and how he reached out to you?
Look, I thought it was very nice.
I felt sincerity from it.
And there were some things, like especially about
the early years, that were very healing for me to -- to hear.
So you're happy that Kody made this first step?
Yeah, I mean, I think that was great.
Maybe there will be more peace among all the adults.
I feel like that there probably was some sort of karmic
thing that got put to bed. -Mm-hmm.
Do you feel that more people in the family need to step up
and do some apologizing?
No.
Like, I feel like Kody was probably the one who really...
Kody was the head of the family.
I think he could have done a lot better job.
Does anyone think they deserve an apology?
I mean, I guess if they do and they feel like I need
to give them an apology, if they asked me, I think
we could consider it.
Because I definitely don't want to have,
you know, somebody out there thinking I've wronged them.
[Sukanya] Yeah.
-I love that he did it. -OK.
I do. I love that he did it.
If that's something that is gonna help him as he moves
forward in his life, I love that he did it.
-And you forgive him for that time in Vegas... -Yeah.
...of him not being there? You forgive him?
Yeah, yeah, because here's the thing, Suki.
-I have a really good life. -[Sukanya] Yeah.
I'm really happy with where I am.
And all those moments led
to who I am, right? So I don't, I don't regret it.
Does he owe you more apologies?
No.
[Sukanya] No?
No. I think he did --
I think he did the apologies that he felt were necessary,
and he does not owe me anything.
Is there anything that you need to apologize for?
I mean, there's -- there's a lot of stuff that we have all done
to each other through the years, and, you know,
and I think that...
there's always something to apologize for.
I think there's always something to ask forgiveness for.
Do you feel like there's anything that you need to apologize for?
-To Kody? -Apologize to either Kody, Janelle, Meri,
or even Robyn?
I'm sure there'd be things that, I don't know.
I don't know. I've changed so much.
-I'm a different person now. I don't know. -Mm-hmm.
I don't think so. I'm just moving on.
I hope they all move on too.
I think that we just need to move on.
If we keep on dwelling in the past
and focusing on the past
and needing to go back in the past
to fix the past, I -- just let it go and move on.
Let's just think what we're gonna do to build from here
and realize that we all said and did things that,
you know, let's just leave it as it is.
'Cause you can't fix it. You can't.
Do you think he needs to apologize for anything else?
Or do you think any of the other wives
need to apologize to Kody?
It's really not my place to say.
That's their own personal journey.
And to sit there and say, "I think they need..."
That's just really not my business.
Do you think anyone owes you an apology?
Um, again, that's their own personal journey.
Would you like to apologize to anybody?
I...don't think I -- I think I'm fine.
-[Sukanya] Yeah. -Yeah.
Are there any apologies that could possibly set you free?
I don't really look at it that same way.
My forgiveness of someone else is my job.
You know, forgiveness is a very personal
experience and journey.
It's not so much about the other person,
it's about yourself.
And I think that's the perfect way where we can
end the conversation today. -Yeah.
-Thank you so much. -Mm-hmm.
I would like, honestly, genuinely, I'd like
to be in a place where I could have conversations with each
of the four of them and be good and, like, I don't have to
trust them with my life, you know, I don't, it doesn't
have to be that, but to be in a place where it's just
comfortable and we can let the past go,
because we're never gonna see eye to eye on it.
We're never gonna, like, I'm never gonna understand
their -- their brains and how they look at something.
I'm not in their brains. I don't know.
I will never understand it. You know?
So, I'd be open to it, but it would definitely take
some conversation.
So my last question to you is,
do you feel like you've been heard
and that you had a voice here?
Here? Absolutely.
I feel like I have definitely had a voice, and thank you for
letting me use it. I appreciate that.
I don't believe the break is clean as I wanted it
when I was apologizing,
but I don't know. I just think it's time for all of us to move on
with all my heart,
in hopes of Meri, Janelle, and Christine having
a wonderful life.
And if -- if there's still something tied up in there,
if there's still a hurt,
I would want them to call me up and say,
"Hey, I was hurt by this once. Could you explain it to me?"
-And I can take the time to explain it. [Sukanya] Mm.
Yeah, I want all the hurt to end.
I want everybody to move on.
I want everybody to feel free and move on with forgiveness.
Kody, thank you so much for this incredible conversation.
I feel like, you know, we were able to get rid of some
of the contradictions, clear up a lot of things.
Are you sure?
You know, with the Brown family, I never know,
but I feel like I got some clarity and I hope
everybody else did too. -Yeah.
And all I do is wish you the best, you and your family.
-So thank you for... -Thank you so much.
...your candid conversation.
[Kody] You're welcome.