- I've been living in the house with Bruce for 37 years
and half of the stuff in the house is mine.
(dramatic music)
- [Dr. Tolin] This is a sort of unusual situation.
They both seem to have a hoarding problem.
- They could die in this.
- This is really dangerous.
- So it's keep or let go.
This is wood, mice peed on it.
You can't clean it up and get it out.
- I want to keep it. Next.
- [Dr. Tolin] I'm already really concerned.
- If you're gonna continue to keep things,
we're not gonna get the house cleaned out.
- I'm not gonna tell him to stop.
- What's the point of even doing this
if he's not following instruction?
- We don't care about your stuff,
we care about you.
(dramatic music)
- You're not gonna live very long
if you keep up this behavior.
(dramatic music)
(tense music)
(country guitar music)
- I'm Bruce. I'm a retired tool and die journeyman.
I've lived at this house for over 30 years.
(tense music)
Inside of the house is jam-packed.
It's up over our head.
We have a pathway between the kitchen and the front door.
I have to turn sideways most of the time
to walk through there.
We have all sorts of stuff, from tools,
knick-knacks, a bunch of stuff.
However, I'm not the only one responsible.
- I'm Cathy. I'm a retired long distance operator.
(tense music)
I've been living in the house with Bruce for 37 years,
so we have accumulated a lot of stuff.
And half of the stuff in the house is mine.
I have a bunch of clothes, jewelry,
a lot of books.
It's just stuff everywhere.
It looks like we're hoarders to look at the house,
but I say we're collectors.
- I'm Laz and I'm Bruce and Cathy's son.
(pensive music)
My parents are definitely hoarders.
Their house is a mess, it's ridiculous.
Stuff is stacked to the ceiling.
There's a million different random items
that you would never expect in the most random places.
There's canned food in the bathrooms,
tools everywhere, books all over the place.
It's not like everything's in just one place,
it's all scattered.
To me the house smells, it's unhealthy, it's unsanitary.
I know there's a lot of open and or expired food everywhere.
There's probably rats and cockroaches
and rat poop everywhere.
I don't see how they sleep comfortably anyway.
They don't even eat at the house.
- Hold on. - Don't get too far ahead.
- [Laz] They go out to eat two, three times a day,
mostly fast food.
(tense music)
- We're getting this stuff from thrift stores.
We like to go there.
That's sort of like a pleasure thing to help pass the day.
- [Bruce] Where's the Halloween houses?
- [Cathy] Over here.
- And that's also how we get our exercise.
'Cause after we eat,
we stop and look at history in the stores.
I look for really special bargains.
And I found a tool for $18 that was valued about $200.
And I can use that around the house.
The house is probably filled with probably
25% each of our stuff, and 50% collateral.
Her clothes take up more volume,
but my tools are smaller so I add as many tools
as she has clothes. Okay?
- But a lot of the clothes I don't wear,
but I bought 'em because there's no place to try 'em on.
But it may look nice.
So I bring it home and that's the reason
why it's accumulated so many.
And I never just have taken them back.
(melancholy music)
- [Bruce] Last year, I was in the hospital twice
for UTI infections.
- [Cathy] I had rotatory cuff surgery.
- I also had pneumonia while I was in the hospital.
- And I've had about two or three knee surgeries.
- I had colon cancer but that was operated on.
And I had this table half cleared off on my side.
- I had real bad arthritis in both of 'em,
I probably need a knee replacement.
Oh, can't get to my pen.
'Cause I'm probably gonna need a walker
or something to walk.
But right now, I don't have the room to walk around
with the walker.
(dramatic music)
- They're not great living conditions for anybody,
let alone somebody who's almost 80 years old.
It's obviously had a detrimental effect on their health.
Worst case scenario would be
something falling on top of them.
There's a lot of things that are really heavy,
higher than head level.
If you're not very careful walking through that,
something could fall on your head.
- I'm Jeff and Bruce is my younger brother.
(somber piano music)
I was at Bruce's house probably about 25 years ago or so.
And we were over for a Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner
with the whole family.
So my wife and two or three other family members were there.
And the house was just as any house is,
you know, a big open space.
It was a perfectly normal home.
- I'm Beth and I'm Bruce and Cathy's sister-in-law.
(somber piano music)
When I was there at Bruce and Cathy's house in 1996,
I saw there was some things maybe
put to the side along one wall area,
but nothing that was real concerning to someone.
Everything was open.
You were able to sit down and have conversations with them.
- Growing up, this was not a problem at all.
There was no hoarding problem.
Parents both had jobs. They worked eight hours a day.
They had to take me to school and they had
several activities going on, but it was mostly work and me.
(pensive music)
I graduated high school when I was 15 years old.
I went to a small community college
for the first couple of years
and I stayed living with my parents.
But I moved away when I was 17.
My parents retired at a fairly young age
and they suddenly had nothing to do, every day.
(gentle music)
At some point after that, I guess,
they started going to thrift stores all the time
and it became a daily habit.
I feel guilty because it's been a problem for a while,
but it's been gradual.
And at no point did I really put my foot down and say,
"No, you've gotta stop this."
Because anytime I would hint at it,
my parents would get very defensive.
(tense music)
- Four years ago or so,
he was telling us that it was difficult to get around
in the house now and that it was getting to be very full.
I guess it was two or three years ago
that we were talking with my brother,
trying to help him set up a way to get through the clutter.
There was no secret at this time.
At one point we asked him to, maybe we would come out,
that perhaps it was a bigger job
than any two of us were able to do.
So we could come out and perhaps help them begin to sort
through things and that would be a stimulus to get it done.
And he had all kinds of excuses and reasons
why that this wasn't good timing for doing that.
(somber piano music)
- Even before the problem got really bad,
they already had a lot of this extra stuff
from my grandfather passing away.
- We went and got part of his things
and that super crowded our house at that time.
There was an attachment to my dad's stuff.
As evidence, I have his last car that he owned
before he died and it's over 20 years old.
I haven't driven it in about 10 years,
but I keep on thinking I may want to fix it
'cause it reminds me of my dad.
(tense music)
- I just don't understand how
they don't ever talk about it being a real problem.
Even though for me, it's an obvious problem.
- The dream we have is that pretty soon,
they'll have their house back.
Right now, they don't have much of a house.
They have probably 1/20th the amount of space to move
in that home as a normal home, they need their life back.
- If the house doesn't get cleaned up,
I'm afraid my parents won't live that much longer
and their health problems will just get worse.
If this house gets cleaned up,
they might live another healthy 30 years,
but instead they might die tomorrow because of the house.
(tense music)
- If the house doesn't get cleaned,
to be able to sit and enjoy their meals at home
and for them to have wide open walkways,
I just think that there's going to be a phone call
and it's not going to be a good one.
I hope that they can realize how dangerous it is.
(dramatic music)
- Come in. - Come in.
- Oh, hi, Cathy, Bruce. How are you?
I'm Dr. Tolin. - Hi, how you doing?
- Very nice to meet you.
I'm Dr. David Tolin.
I'm a clinical psychologist and I specialize
in the study and treatment of hoarding disorder.
May I step in? - Sure.
- Okay.
- As I walk into the house,
the first thing that I'm really struck by
is the sheer volume of stuff in this house.
I mean, we're talking walls of stuff,
seven, eight feet high.
That's how they're living day-by-day.
And I really feel bad for them
looking at the condition of the house.
So I'm gonna be with you for a few days.
And for today, what I have in mind
is just to get a little bit of a look around,
but also to get to know the two of you a little bit
and try to understand, you know,
what we might wanna work on.
So can you describe for me what we're looking at here?
What's going on?
- Well, when Bruce and I retired 2006,
we had a lot of time on our hands.
We the type, we just don't like to stay at home.
So we'd go out and maybe grab a lunch
and go to a thrift store.
That gives us a chance to do exercise plus-
- Thrift stores? - Right.
- Okay, and what do you do at the thrift stores?
- If I see a really good buy or something like that,
a $2 item that was retailed out for $40,
I'll probably buy it.
- It does raise a question
that I would have for both of you.
Do you feel like you are buying things
that you don't need or can't use?
- Well, my idea is that when we do buy things,
we look at it from a concept of
we could either give it away or sell it.
And I've only had one garage sale in the last 20 years here.
- So you're not really selling stuff,
but this is the idea in your head
that kind of justifies the purchase?
- Yes.
- The fact of the matter is,
he's not really doing those things.
What he is doing, is accumulating and storing.
What's your vision for this room?
When we're all done, what would you like to see here?
- The couch and the chair, you know, over there.
And of course the TV.
- Sounds like you both would like to see a lot of stuff go.
Is that correct? - Oh, yes, we would.
- Okay. And I think I'm also hearing
that you'd like to use this room,
to sit down on a couch and watch TV and,
which it sounds like it,
those aren't really things you can do right now.
- Well, actually our control center is the kitchen.
- Well, it's not very easy to move around in there either.
- Yeah? Well, I wonder if maybe we could
take a look at the kitchen. Would that be all right?
- Yes. - Sure.
- Okay. I'll let you show me the way here.
- Okay.
- There's a lot of hazards in this house.
I mean, there's an obvious trip and fall hazard.
There's an air quality hazard.
This is obviously not a safe place for Bruce and Cathy.
- [Cathy] It's hard to move around in here.
- Yeah. Well, you know, Cathy, I'm noticing
that your walking is pretty unsteady
and I wonder if you could tell me that story.
- I need a knee replacement and use,
most of the time you have to have a walker.
- But the concern is that you couldn't use a walker in here
because there's no room.
- Right, right.
- Okay. So that's important.
You know, I'm looking around the kitchen
and I see, you know, that it's also very full.
Are you able to cook in here?
- Yes, he bought this. It's a two burner.
- [Dr. Tolin] Oh yeah. I see the hot plate there.
- So, a frying pan and a boiler
so we can cook meat and rice, soup.
- Are y'all worried about fires?
- I'm there all the time when it's cooking.
I mean, I may go on the other side of the refrigerator,
you know, to go to the sink. - But I'm always right here.
- When I go into the kitchen,
I can see that the only thing working in there
is a hot plate that they've got shoved into the middle
of a whole bunch of very flammable clutter.
Both of them downplayed the fire risk and said,
"No, no, no. We're always here. It's okay."
It's not okay. This is really dangerous.
I'm also interested in getting a sense of where you sleep
and I wonder if you could show me that.
- Sure.
- Can we take a look at the bedroom?
(somber music)
So this is the bedroom and it looks like,
I'm guessing you sleep right up there?
- Yes.
- But I don't see a whole lot of room for two people to sleep.
- It's a queen sized bed. - It's a lot of room.
- So as I look around the house, and I do want to thank
both of you for showing me around the house,
I mean, it probably won't surprise you to hear me say
I think a lot of stuff is gonna have to go.
- [Cathy] Oh, yeah. We know that.
- If you think about the whole house, you know,
what percentage of the stuff needs to go
in order for you to be comfortable
and healthy and safe?
- A lot of stuff, it was consolidated
and put it in boxes for us to use it at a later time,
if we wanted to.
We could probably do 50% of the material that way
and it will save a lot of space.
- So you're thinking you probably need to get rid of 50%
and consolidate the rest?
- Well, I don't know.
It sort of depends on what we find
when we're digging in the stuff. - Sure.
Cathy, what's your sense of it?
What do you think, what percentage needs to go?
- I'm like Bruce, at least 50%.
- [Dr. Tolin] Okay.
- And some of the things, like he said,
we could put in boxes and put 'em in the bedroom.
At least it'd be out of the way out of these main rooms.
- I think if you got rid of 50% of the things in this house,
you would still have a very cluttered house.
- Oh, you do? - I do.
Well, I mean, just look here.
I mean, like, just imagine if we got rid
of 50% of the items in this room.
Okay, this stack would be down to here now, you know,
and, or that would be up to there.
But I think you'd still would have a lot of stuff in here.
This is a sort of unusual situation.
Most of the time when we talk to somebody
with hoarding disorder, they're pretty isolated.
They often live alone.
In this case, we have a couple
and they both seem to have a hoarding problem.
That's gonna be a real challenge for me in my role
because what happens if one member of the couple
starts to change their behavior,
but the other doesn't want to?
So I'm really gonna have to pay very careful attention,
not just to Bruce and Cathy,
but also to the dynamic between them
to make sure that everything is moving in a good direction.
You're gonna have two experts working with you,
me and Carolina.
Now Carolina is an organizer
and we're gonna meet her in a minute.
And she's got a team of professionals
that are good at working with stuff.
And so they're gonna work on the stuff in the house.
I'm gonna work on you. - Okay.
- My job is partly to help make sure that not only
are we making good choices about letting things go,
and again, it's your choice, not mine.
But I also want to make sure that when we leave,
the problem doesn't start to creep back.
So we want to also help you kind of practice healthy habits
that are gonna serve you well for a long time,
even after we're gone.
- Oh, one item comes in, one item goes out. Huh?
- I'd say if one item comes in, maybe five items go out.
- Oh, I don't... (Dr. Tolin laughing)
- But that's just me. That's just me.
All right. Shall we go talk to Carolina?
- Okay. - All right, let's go meet her.
(tense music)
- Hey, Carolina. - Hello, Dr. Tolin.
I'm Carolina Harvey,
organizing expert specializing in hoarding.
- Carolina, I'd like to introduce you
to Cathy and Bruce.
This is Carolina. - Hi, Cathy.
- [Dr. Tolin] Our organizing expert.
- Great to meet you. Great to meet you.
Hi Bruce, Carolina. Great to meet you.
You know these two.
(all laughing)
- So Carolina, we've been in the house
and I've been kind of getting to know a little bit
about Bruce and Cathy and their story and looking around.
But I'd really be interested in getting your take on it too.
I mean, there's a lot of stuff in there
and I would really be interested to hear
what you think we could do about it.
- Of course. That sounds good.
You guys wanna head in there and check it out?
- Okay.
- How do you guys feel about us going in?
- Well, it's okay for you to go in,
but I'm worried about them going in.
- You're having trouble- - What's your worry, Cathy?
- Well, they haven't seen the house before.
I mean, in about 30 years, so.
- Why don't I let you guys take a look at it
and we'll be out here waiting for you.
- All right, sounds good. All right, let's go.
You guys ready? Let's do it. - Yeah.
- Be careful about avalanches.
Don't grab things on the side. - Okay.
(tense music)
- Wow.
(tense music)
- Cathy, it looks like you're feeling some things here.
Can you articulate what's going on?
(melancholy music) (Cathy crying)
- I'm sorry. - That's all right.
- Don't be sorry.
It's important for you to express how you're feeling.
- [Cathy] When they see the house...
- [Dr. Tolin] You don't want them to see it?
- No, I want 'em to see it. - You do.
but I don't want to think different of us.
- That's your concern,
is that they're gonna think differently of you.
Okay.
So what is it you think they're gonna think?
- Well, like, if we don't care.
- They're gonna think you don't care?
- Well, we care but it's just that,
you see people maybe in a different light
when they see a house like that.
- Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, I think they might think that you need help
and that would be true, right?
Yeah. Do you think they
maybe they'll think something bad about you?
- I don't think they would. - I don't think so either.
All right. They seem like pretty nice people
and I know that you're pretty close.
So they're here to support you, right?
Not here to judge you. - Right. Right.
- Right. But we gotta start by taking a look at it.
- Okay. - Okay.
- She was afraid that we would think differently of her
and that never crossed my mind.
I never thought about thinking differently
because all these years I've known
that they have something going on as far as buying things
and holding onto things maybe.
There's nothing wrong with Cathy as far as
who she is as a person.
I love her to death and I will continue. Yeah.
(tense music)
- [Carolina] It looks really unsafe.
- Yeah, it's tight and I'm small.
- [Carolina] It's well above our heads.
And you're, what are you?
- [Jeff] I'm over six feet tall.
Some of this is eight feet tall.
I guess everything's a deal when you see it or something.
- What do you guys think that you're seeing this?
Like, how are you feeling?
It's been over 20 years since you were here last.
- I don't recognize the house, obviously, because-
- You can't see the house. - You can't see the house.
I don't know how they, you know, function in the house.
- [Jeff] How can they live in this, really?
- What do you think about safety?
Like what, I mean, they could die in this, right?
- Obviously if you wanted to get something out of here,
when you grab something, other things could fall.
But even just walking through the path is hardly big enough
to turn around and things so.
It's difficult.
- How do you think it happened?
What do you think is going on?
Anything you can tell us?
- You know, I'm kind of lost for words
on how that can happen.
Of course, their car has been full of things,
but nothing like this.
- [Carolina] Right.
- And they told us that they had quite a bit of things
in their home, but nothing like this.
- No, I could not have imagined it being this way.
- It's gotta hurt your heart to know
that they're living like this.
- Oh, for sure. - Definitely.
- You know, over the years we've worked with them
to talk 'em about coming out to help 'em.
'Cause they told us they had a lot of things
and they needed some, you know, it was hard to get started.
So we said we'd be glad to come out,
but they, of course, now we can see why they were basically...
- Yeah. I don't know where you would start.
- Yeah.
It's overwhelming. - It is.
- Right? Like, where do you begin?
I see you're getting a little emotional.
It's hard to see family that you love live like this, right?
It doesn't seem okay.
- There's no space there.
I mean, you're not really living in a space
that is in the shape that this is in.
I would never guess that they were functioning that way
in such a dysfunctional setting.
It's just not a place you want to be.
- Hey, guys. - Hi there.
- Hey, hey.
So I would love for you guys to share with them,
what you think, what you saw in there.
- I saw a lot of things. (all laughing)
You were right Cathy, there's a lot in there.
There's a path everywhere you need to go, but
maybe a bigger path would be a lot better, huh?
- Beth was a little emotional in there.
- Yeah. I got emotional just like you're doing now.
And I just think,
Bruce, you and Cathy really are such good people
and I just feel like it's a real hardship for you
to be in this situation.
And I can see where we talked about times before
where you would try and tackle it and I can see
where it's such a hard thing to try and tackle.
It's very overwhelming to be able to start it
and imagine being able to complete it.
From that point to the completion,
it's hard to imagine that being
something you could do on your own.
- Right.
- And I can understand why
that you weren't able to accomplish that.
- You know, I know that Cathy,
you had some concern that they would view you differently.
Do you? - No, not at all.
- But to me now, all the times we talked about, well,
we come help and get started,
but there's not a starting point that we can see right now.
So that's where, you know, why you guys say,
"Not now. We gotta things fix things up a little bit first."
And gosh, it's impossible to think how to start really.
There's a lot of things.
- It seems like though, like you said, a starting point.
But once you get started,
then you just wanna keep on and on and on.
- Yeah. Well, that would be great.
- That's what we're here for.
We are here to guide you guys through that process
and get started.
- Thank you so much. - And keep going.
- And I guess to that point,
I'd be really interested in hearing from you, Carolina.
What plans do you have?
I mean, how do you want to tackle this?
- Yeah. So, the house is full, so it's really dangerous.
So I think the best thing to do
is to gather some of those spots,
especially the really tall spots and get it out to the lawn
so that we can start sorting,
start looking and seeing what it is that you really need.
- Sounds great. - Yeah.
- It's gonna be hard.
I'm gonna tell you right now, it's gonna be really hard.
But that's part of this process and that's why Dr. Tolin
is so important as a part of this process.
- And I will say, I think you guys
are off to a really good start.
And one of the things that I think is a good start
is that you were willing to allow us to come into your home
and you were willing to allow your loved ones
to come into the home.
So many people struggling with this kind of problem
don't get to that point.
They keep it secret.
They don't want anybody to know and they just feel ashamed.
The fact that you're able to let some people in
to help you, who care about you, I think,
is already putting you ahead of the curve.
So I'm feeling really optimistic about this
and I hope that we can just keep that ball rolling.
So should we wrap for now and plan on coming back
and starting to work on it?
- [Carolina] What do you guys think, yeah?
- There's some work to do. - Yeah, there is.
So Bruce and Cathy, I would say rest up
'cause you're gonna need it.
So we'll see you in the morning
and we'll all come back and get to work.
Okay? - [Bruce] Okay.
(pensive music)
- My dad is very passive aggressive.
He's probably not going to argue too much, but then again,
he might argue over every little thing.
My mom, I think she'll go along with it,
but then if my dad says no, she'll support him.
I really don't know how this is gonna go, to be honest.
- Good morning, everyone. - [All] Good morning.
- It's great to see all of you this morning.
It's good to see you, Cathy, Bruce.
We're ready to get this thing started.
Laz, it's great to meet you this morning.
You're their son, right? Their only son, right?
I can tell you are very proud of your son
by the way you look at him.
That's wonderful. That's wonderful.
It's great to see you, Jeff and Beth,
thanks for being here too.
We're excited. We have quite a crew here for you,
organizers, the hauling team.
We're ready to get a lot of work done, right?
We're gonna be working with you throughout the day.
I really want to start at the front of the house
and get stuff out just like we talked about and sort it out.
Let you see how much you have
so you can start making decisions.
What do you think about that?
- That sounds great.
- Sounds good. - Does that sound good?
Okay, Dr. Tolin, you wanna check in with them?
- Yeah. Well, I just want to say, you know,
I'm just so delighted to be working
with you here and all of you.
And Cathy and Bruce, I think you guys, you know,
seem like you're really great people
who deserve to be living a lot better than this.
- Absolutely.
- But understand that there's kind of two things happening
over the course of this process.
One, that Carolina is leading,
is getting the stuff out of the house
and helping to discard things
and move things into their proper locations.
But the other, and this is where I'm gonna be working with you,
is working on those behavioral factors
that led to the problem in the first place,
and that are gonna potentially make this problem come back.
It's important to recognize that things
are gonna have to be different
if you want life to be better.
So, Bruce, let me put it to you.
Are you ready to do things differently,
now and going forward?
- Yes, I am.
- Okay. Cathy, how about you? Are you ready to be different?
- Yes, I'm ready to be different.
- Okay, good.
Laz, how are you feeling about this process?
What do you anticipate?
- Definitely nervous,
but also very curious how it's gonna play out
and how they're gonna respond.
And maybe things will be different since it's not family,
you know, telling them, you know,
some of this stuff needs to go
and it doesn't make any sense to keep a lot of these things.
- Maybe, maybe. Thank you for that Laz.
Jeff and Beth, great to have you here.
- Thank you.
- So how do you anticipate this going?
I mean, you know the situation pretty well.
What do you think is gonna happen?
- I'm just here to support and make sure
that I'm not in the way of the process
and that I give them the support that they need.
- So any judgment here from you?
- Absolutely none.
- Do you think at all differently of Cathy and Bruce
because you've seen the house? - Absolutely not.
No matter the outcome. Okay?
- Jeff, how about you?
- You know, I'm so glad this day has finally come
because we've been talking about
getting started on this over the years,
trying to figure out how to get ready to start.
And once we get started,
I think it's gonna really work well.
But, we just couldn't ever get a start going.
- And Cathy, you seem like you're feeling some things?
(mumbles) (crying)
(emotional music)
- You're good. You're good. - It's okay, it's okay.
- We know you love us.
Yeah, and we love you too.
- They are so supportive.
Such good people.
- Thank you.
- We're gonna get it done today, huh?
- [Dr. Tolin] They are nice people and you are too,
and y'all deserve the best.
- Okay. So all of us are gonna head
to the front of the house and get started.
And start from the front door.
All right, everybody ready? - Yeah!
- All right, let's do this. Let's go!
(dramatic music)
Bruce and Cathy, come on up.
Family, come on up.
So I want you to first look over there at the porch.
All that stuff is gone.
We're sorting it out onto these tarps
into different categories
so that you can make decisions about categories. Okay?
But I wanted you to look at this first
because it is all the items that we believe to be trash.
So I want you two to look at this
and tell me if you're willing to let this go.
There's mold on these boxes.
We can dig through all of it if you would like to,
but it is trash.
- I'd like to save four or five of these.
They're really excellent,
doesn't take up any space at all.
- Okay.
- And that's about it.
Okay. All the rest of 'em could go.
- You're only keeping five boxes. I think that's good.
Let's try to keep on this trend.
Let's try, one decision at a time, right?
How about this?
Could I get you to take something off this pile
and take it into the dumpster?
- [Bruce] Can I just toss it over or do you want me to-
- Nope, I want you to walk on in.
- Walk it. - Walk it in.
You got it, Bruce? All right.
Yay! Woo-hoo!
Good job, Bruce. Decision one!
(dramatic music)
I'm gonna tell you right now,
because this stuff was all outside,
if you are letting it go, donation's not an option.
There was mice over there.
- There were what? - There was mice.
- Really? - Yep.
- I didn't see any. - So it's keep or let go.
Okay? Keep or trash.
- [Bruce] You could give those to Jeff.
Turn that out and I'm gonna clean them up
and give those to Steve, he likes wood.
- Okay, so here's the thing.
You're looking to give away something
to someone that was with mice?
- [Bruce] I'm gonna clean it up. I'll wear gloves.
- This is wood, so it's porous.
That means if mice peed on it,
you can't clean it up and get it out.
- Oh well, I could surely spray it with disinfectant
because that would also penetrate into the wood.
- Not when it's porous like this.
- [Dr. Tolin] What do you think about it, Laz?
- I think my Uncle Steve would prefer
that you make the healthy choice here.
This item right here, this isn't a priority for him.
- Well, nothing's a priority for him.
Nothing's a priority here for any of this stuff for you.
- [Dr. Tolin] Well, Bruce, if that's the case,
then what's the justification
for hanging onto this stuff for him?
- He enjoys hand-carved wood stuff.
I think I could clean those up
even if they peed on it or not.
I could clean it up,
leave it out in the sun and it'll self-sanitize.
Okay? I want to keep it.
- I'm already really concerned.
Bruce said, "Whether it's a good decision or not,
I want to keep it."
I think that sums up his mentality
and maybe it sums up the mentality of a lot of people
with hoarding disorder,
which is that even if it's a bad decision,
the fact of the matter is,
I have this want that I cannot satisfy
and I just keep accumulating stuff.
(tense music)
(country guitar music)
- That's a replacement for the heater
in the front bathroom. Keep that.
I wanna keep this.
- You wanna hold onto this one?
So you wanna keep that?
- That one? Yes.
I'd like to keep the fan. - You'd like to keep the fan.
So you wanna keep all the ornaments?
- Yes.
- [Laz] Are you gonna decorate the house this year?
- No.
- I don't think 90% of those like, decorations
you're ever gonna use.
We'll never get done if you don't just start saying in mass
to get rid of whole boxes.
Taking quick glances at boxes. - No.
- We have a hundred thousand different items in this house,
and if we have to stop every second
to decide yes or no on things, we'll never get finished.
- Well, we'll just throw out everything in the whole house
and then we'll be done in 10 seconds.
- What I'm seeing is I'm seeing, Bruce,
you having a kind of a knee-jerk reaction to save things
and feeling threatened by anything different.
- I'm not gonna take a box and just look at it and say,
"Throw it away."
That's ridiculous. You've gotta see what's in there.
- I mean, you could throw 90, 95% of everything in the house
away except for just what you need.
And your life would be a million times better.
The air quality in the house will be much higher.
You guys can move around without getting arthritis
or making your arthritis worse.
That's the priority, is you guys living a healthy life.
But if we don't do something with this house
and get rid of most of this stuff,
you're not gonna live very much longer
and you won't have any time for projects
if you're six feet under the ground.
- Yeah, if I'm six foot under the ground,
then you get to deal with it, then you could call them up.
- [Carolina] Is that really fair to Laz though?
Think about what you just said, Bruce.
- [Bruce] Well, you get all the money too.
- I mean, the cleanup would cost more
than value of the house, I hate to say it.
And it would still take a humongous amount of time.
- Cathy, what's your thought here?
- Like Bruce, like he said, he loves to do these projects
and I'm just not gonna take away from it.
- Cathy, I would say if you think that Bruce
is hanging on to too much stuff,
this would be a really good time to tell him.
- Well, I don't think he is.
- Sometimes when you really love somebody,
you have to tell them to stop doing what they're doing.
That's part of how you show love.
You don't just let them go off into self-destruction.
I don't see Cathy doing that.
I don't see Cathy standing up and saying,
"Honey, you've gotta stop this."
(pensive music)
- Can we throw this out?
- [Bruce] Hold on just a minute on that.
- Time out. Wouldn't this be for the refrigerator
that you're getting rid of?
- But it's a good carrying case for miscellaneous junk.
- So you wanna hold onto this? - For right now, yes.
- [Carolina] I feel like you're delaying a decision.
- Well, like I said,
I could throw it out later if I decide later,
I can think about it.
- Well, everything can be later.
That's why we're here because everything has been later.
- You can't keep doing the same thing
and expect that things are gonna be different.
So with the process of saving,
the process of delaying decisions
because they're too hard.
Those are all the old ways and we need to push back
against those to make good, solid decisions.
- All right. Well, I've decided to keep it.
Next.
(tense music)
- All right, Bruce and Cathy,
this was all the bags that were on the porch.
I want you to look at them all,
but I also want you to look at and see that there's mold.
- Throw that one away. - This one?
- Yep. - What about that one?
It's got mold on it.
It's leather, so it's porous.
- Oh, go ahead. - You sure? Okay.
To be honest, this one looks like it's in the best shape.
- Which one? - This one, the messenger.
I don't see mold. It's clean on the inside.
You have a spot for a laptop.
This one does have mold on it.
Cathy, what do you think?
- No. - Let it go?
All right. There's mold inside of that one.
- You can toss it. - You see it? All right.
- Now that's a tool bag.
- This is more like a tool bag, yep.
But you can see that there was mice in here.
- Well, let me... - You hear your family?
- I'm sure you have better than that.
- [Laz] You have plenty.
I think you're gonna find a lot more tool bags.
At least a few more tool bags in there.
- [Carolina] Okay. Tell me what you'd like to do.
- Go ahead and toss it.
- You ready to let it go and keep this one?
- Yes. - Can we put it in the bag?
That works. All right, oh, we got one more bag right here.
What about this one? - Toss it!
- "Toss it," she said. All right.
So Bruce and Cathy, I think that was a really good job.
Really, really good job.
You kept one bag and one extra strap.
Everything else you got rid of, you did really good.
Really, really good.
Two blankets, remember, they were outside.
Mice, pee, urine.
- I'd be inclined to keep 'em.
(tense music)
- Cathy, what do you think?
You wanna keep 'em? - Yes.
- Remember, they were outside.
- [Beth] And how old do you think those blankets are?
- Look almost new.
- [Beth] How long do you think you've had them?
- Probably no more than,
I think we got 'em four to six months ago.
- [Beth] And where do you think you got those?
- At a thrift store. - Okay.
- So there's not even any sentimental value to 'em.
They weren't Grandpa's or Grandmother's or anybody's,
they were just some item you bought at a thrift store
and it's that important? - Yes.
- [Beth] How would you use them?
- Maybe on a throw or the back end of a chair or the couch.
- [Beth] Inside the house?
- You wouldn't use them, if the mice been on them,
would you? - I don't know.
- Cathy, I heard you kind of speaking an opinion there
and I appreciate that.
It sounds like you didn't think that bringing
one of these inside the house was such a good idea.
- Well, not inside the house maybe, until they're cleaned.
- What's the point of even doing this
if we aren't gonna keep some of the stuff
and throw out the other stuff?
- But you're keeping stuff that mice have been on,
that's been stored outside.
- We don't know for sure if they've been on these.
I don't see any urine stains on 'em.
- I'm not gonna try to debate this,
but I just kind of want you to be thinking
about what's really important.
It's not this, this isn't important.
This is a thing. You need to make the right choices here.
- I don't see a health problem in those.
- I know you don't. I know you don't.
- So if I don't see a health problem,
that's the reason why I wanna keep them.
- I know. And that I think is your blind spot.
That drive to hang onto things is so strong
that it overrides everything else,
including his best interest,
Cathy's best interest, the family's best interest.
Basically, he will save himself to death.
- My parents are definitely hoarders.
Their house is a mess, it's ridiculous.
(dramatic music)
- Seeing this, like how are you feeling?
It's been over 20 years since you were here last.
- [Beth] I don't recognize the house, obviously, because-
- You can't see the house. - You can't see the house.
(intense music)
- You think about the whole house,
what percentage of the stuff needs to go?
- One item comes in, one item goes out, huh?
- I'd say if one item comes in, maybe five items go out.
- We'll never get done if you don't just start-
- No, I'm not gonna take a box and just look at it
and say, "Throw it away."
That's ridiculous.
- If you think that Bruce is hanging onto too much stuff,
this would be a really good time to tell him.
- I don't think he is.
(tense music ends)
- I have two concerns.
The first concern is Cathy not feeling like
she can make her own decisions and being independent.
But I'm also concerned that Cathy wants to make decisions
with Bruce the entire time we're here.
There's no way we can get through this house
if we don't divide and conquer.
Good morning, everyone. - [All] Good morning.
- It's great to see everyone this morning.
How are you guys feeling about today?
- Good. - Good.
- Excited. - Yeah?
Bruce? Good? - Good.
- Cathy? - Yes.
- You ready? All right. - Yeah.
- So I brought organizers with me today
because I would like to see if we can split up.
What are you guys thinking about that?
- That would be all right. - Yes.
- That would be okay? Great. Okay.
That's exciting.
I'm really glad that you're willing to do this.
We're gonna get so much more accomplished
because we have more than one person making decisions. Okay.
So Cathy, Jeff, and Beth,
I'm gonna have you out front with Danny and Maya, okay.
Laz, Bruce, and myself and Annie will be in the back.
Everybody ready to get going? - [All] Yeah.
- All right. Let's do this.
(gentle upbeat music)
- I don't want these. - You want these?
These are an 18. - I don't want them.
- Just figured I'd check in and see how things are going.
- Cathy is doing amazing.
- Amazing, huh? - Yes.
She is making smart, healthy choices.
She has already created rules for us to use.
So as we start pulling things out of the bag,
she's not even having to look at certain items.
We already know that they're trash.
- Wow! - Yes.
- So how much stuff is being kept
and how much stuff is being tossed? Do you know?
- I would say right now she's probably either donating
or trashing around 50% of what we're looking at.
- Okay. - So she's making huge strides.
- Great. Cathy, how does it feel like it's going
from your perspective? - It's going good.
- Yeah? - Yeah.
- Beth, Jeff, what are you seeing?
- Yes. I think, once she gets an idea
or feel for how much she has
that she may go back and make some decisions
to let some more things go, right?
- Right. - Okay. Great.
Thank you. Thanks guys.
(tense music)
- [Carolina] He said the microwave can go.
Yep. He's taking it right now.
- [Bruce] That could be thrown away.
- Trash? - Trash.
- [Carolina] There's a bunch of silverware here, Bruce.
- [Bruce] I have a friend at the Knife and Gun Show,
I'm gonna give that to him.
- Time out. You said that you wanna give those knives
to a friend at the Knife and Gun Show?
- [Bruce] Yeah.
- But those are household knives.
- Yeah, that's what he does.
He sharpens the household knives and stuff like that.
- Do you think it's worth the effort for him
to take some very basic silverware
and spend hours cleaning 'em up and sharpening them all?
- No, he doesn't have to clean 'em up.
He just, no, I don't want toss it.
I think this is something we're wasting our time on
when I can set it over there and I can get to it later.
- Dr. Tolin, can you come in and weigh in on this?
- Yeah sure. What are you seeing?
- So Bruce got rid of the microwave real quick,
and then we got to these knives.
And he says he wants to keep them to give them
to a friend that's a knife seller.
And Laz and I shared that they're kitchen knives.
- They're not collector's items or-
- They're not, correct.
- I would just want to point out, Bruce,
that I think your Achilles heel has been saving things
that you hope to give to somebody else.
I think it's thinking like that,
that caused the problem in the first place.
Maybe you should get out
of the gift-giving business for a while.
You recognize that this is a really unhealthy pattern
that you're in, and maybe it's just good
to let things go rather than hang onto them.
- Yeah and it also hurts me to see that in the dump somewhere.
- Yeah, I know it would hurt. - That hurts me a lot.
- I know it would hurt.
But could these be donated perhaps?
I mean, would there be a charity that would accept them?
- Well, they're rusty. I'm looking right at 'em.
- [Bruce] Most of 'em are, 99% of 'em are stainless steel.
- Yeah. But it's rusted. - A little bit of dirt.
- [Carolina] But you can't, that's not dirt.
Go ahead, try to rub it off.
They're not reusable or donatable.
We can scrap them.
- I've polished a lot of knives out like that.
- I think we've kind of come into the two themes
that have really tripped you up in the past,
which is, "I'm gonna save this for somebody,"
and, "I'm gonna make a project out of this."
And I think that that thinking
has really contributed to the very unhealthy
and unsafe situation in your house.
- Okay, put it in the save.
- I'd rather see you just make a good, solid decision.
- That's my solid decision here, we'll put it in.
- I mean, a healthy decision for you.
I think deferring the decision is not healthy for you.
I think saving it for other people is not healthy.
- I got rid of the microwave immediately.
- Yes, you did.
- Okay. And I've also thrown out a couple boxes.
- Yes, you did.
And now we're talking about these knives.
- Yes. So I wanna set them aside and...
- Bruce is a very clever guy.
He's very skilled verbally.
He's good at debating and arguing.
The problem, of course,
is that even if he wins the argument and the debate,
he really loses.
That's the piece that I need him to see.
I see you making a very unhealthy choice here.
And I think it is the same kind of unhealthy choice
that you've been making for a very long time
that has contributed to the buildup of clutter in the home.
I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that I think
it's very unhealthy and risky for you to do this.
- Okay. You've told me and I accept the responsibility.
Are we gonna be here for another half an hour
on these box of knives,
or are we gonna get this cleared out?
- We might. Remember that part of what
we're here to do is clean out a house.
But also part of what we're here to do is teach you
how to make good choices for yourself.
- I know. In the future,
I won't be going out and buying any more knives,
but I have these, in hand.
- You just said that you're not gonna be willing
to get rid of 'em.
Is that what's gonna happen for all of this?
Is it gonna continue?
- Like the microwave I just gave away, I throw away.
- I know that you feel like it's success
because you got rid of one thing,
but you still have a backyard that's full of stuff.
And if you're gonna continue to keep things,
we're not gonna get the house cleaned out.
You're not gonna live in a safe home.
(tense music)
(intense music)
- Hey, how you guys doing?
How's it going out here?
- She is doing so great. - Yeah?
- And she's even stepped it up.
Dr. Tolin checked in with us a little bit ago
and she was doing amazing, about 50%.
And now she's about 75%.
- Wow! - 75%!
- Out the door. - [Dr. Tolin] Really good Cathy.
- Cathy that's really good, really good.
I'm really excited to hear that.
All right Cathy, what do you think about allowing
Jeff and Beth to make some decisions on your behalf?
They've been watching what you're keeping
and what you're letting go of.
And if they have a question they can ask you.
But would you be willing to give over some control
so that they can make some decisions on your behalf?
- For the clothes? - Mm-hmm.
Are you sure? - All right.
- That's great, Cathy, and I know that's uncomfortable,
but kind of like we were talking about before,
uncomfortable is probably good.
So the more you can kind of lean into that,
put up with a little bit of discomfort,
I think the better shape you're gonna be in in the long run.
So this is great.
(upbeat guitar music)
- Can get trashed as food? - Food?
That wok, this cardboard box.
These plastic containers.
- He said this is for you. - If you want it.
- If you don't, I don't want to toss it.
- I want it so I can toss it.
- I'll keep it, then. (Laz laughing)
- The plastic bags? - Throw 'em out.
- What about the rest of it?
- I'd like to keep the bin, but throw out everything else.
Okay. That's my tools.
- Looks like it's tools. - Keep.
- Keep? Okay.
(upbeat music)
- This is cherry wood, I think.
But let's go ahead and dump 'em.
- [Carolina] Prepared to let 'em go?
- [Bruce] Ooh. Well, I don't have room for 'em.
- [Carolina] What did you just say?
You don't have room for them? - I don't have room for 'em.
- That's a good choice.
Bruce, that's a good choice.
- How's everything going here?
- Good. We've cleared the path so that the fridge can come out.
- I can see you've made a lot of progress here.
- I know, from the left and the right side here.
So I would say he's doing better than yesterday.
- Okay. What does that mean?
- He's getting rid of a higher percentage, which is good.
- Good. - Not everything, though.
- Not everything. I hear it.
I hear it, but more, and that's good.
- It's more, it's increasing, which is good.
I'm like, really glad about that.
And I will say there was a couple of things
that it was hard.
He was uncomfortable, but he still let it go.
- Wow! So Bruce, that's really impressive.
- It was huge.
- Because the ability to do things
that are uncomfortable is really important.
- Yeah. And I think our next step from here
is to go out front, like we talked about,
and have Bruce and Cathy come together
and work on some of the stuff that came out of the house.
- I think that sounds like a terrific idea.
- That sound good, Bruce?
What do you think?
- Prepared for trouble, aren't you?
(Dr. Tolin laughing)
- Hopefully not too much trouble.
(upbeat music)
- I would like to present two things to you.
First is an offer from an organization
that is willing to take this car.
And the second is, give you the money
that you got from the morning scrap.
You filled up the trailer this morning
and they have some cash for you.
So I'd like to present that to you.
- Okay. - Okay?
So Brennan went to the scrapyard and-
- We collected right around $80 for you, sir.
And some change just on that one side.
We haven't even cleared that other side yet in scrap metal.
- All right. So you got some cash in your pocket,
I'd like to add to that.
They're offering $240 for the car.
They will not charge to come and haul it away.
It's $240 to take it and they will give you cash in hand.
- Right now, I'm just not ready to part with it.
- And why is that?
- Well, first of all, I also have the idea
that I may end up having fixed it up.
- So you wanna get it fixed up to use it?
- Well, I may end up fixing it up.
$1,500, $1,900 for the transmission.
- Do you have $1,900 to fix it?
- Oh, yeah. - You do? Okay.
So you can afford that? - Oh, yeah.
I could probably afford to buy a new one,
but this is my dad's last vehicle.
- Well, I understand there's some sentimental value to it.
- [Bruce] Well, and it drove beautifully.
- Drove, past tense? - Oh, yes.
- So you're not prepared to let it go?
- No. I'm not prepared to let it go.
- Okay.
Bruce did not accept the offer of the car for the $240.
He felt he wanted to keep it because I think
he's still attached to it because it was his father's.
He even said he was willing to spend $1,900
to replace the transmission on it.
I don't understand that logic.
(tense music)
- We need another donation box! - Yep.
- Will you be decorating any cakes?
- No. Donate. - Donate.
All right, here we go. We got this one right here.
What is that?
- That's to make ice. - Ice maker?
- I wanna keep that. - You wanna keep that?
Okay. That's fine.
Can we take it for scrap?
- I'd like to keep it this one. - And what about the rest?
The rest can be scraped? - Yes.
- All right. That's good.
All right. How about this? Bless this house.
What would you like to do?
Your face is telling me to let it go.
I see your face, I feel like you're saying, "Let it go!"
- No, let's keep it.
- So you wanna hold onto it?
All right. This is the last thing of this sack.
- Yes, keep those. - You wanna keep these? Okay.
All right.
How you guys feel like you did?
- I think with the progress we're doing now,
it'll be the house we want.
- You think so? - Yeah.
- I'm satisfied with the progress so far.
- Well, I'm pleased to see that Bruce and Cathy
actually feel pretty good about the progress.
Now, I am still noticing that Bruce is making
an awful lot of the decisions
and Cathy is just so afraid to upset Bruce
that she's going along with it.
And I'm gonna encourage Cathy to find her voice tomorrow.
- Good morning, everyone. - [All] Good morning.
- Morning, morning. It's great to see everybody.
I see a lot of smiling faces, that's a good thing.
- Still. - Yeah, good.
So we got our work cut out for us today.
You see the mounds behind me, right?
You see 'em?
This is as far as we got yesterday,
about eight feet into the house.
That was it.
If you two are still okay with it,
I would love to continue to divide and conquer.
Are you both comfortable with that,
letting your family make some decisions on your behalf?
- Yes. - You're okay? Yes, good?
How about you, Cathy? - Okay.
- Easy, hard? Good, bad?
- Still not easy, but yeah, its all right.
- We never said this process would be easy,
right, Bruce and Cathy? Okay.
And you got so much love behind you, encouraging you.
And we care about you too.
That's why we're here too, okay?
So we're gonna split everybody up
so everybody can be making decisions.
So five of you are making decisions,
it's gonna go so much quicker.
All right. You guys ready to do this?
- [All] Yes. Let's go. - Let's do it.
(upbeat pensive music)
- If it's empty, trash.
- So Cathy, I wonder if you have an opinion
about these walkie-talkies?
- Well, he said he has to check 'em out
'cause they don't have any batteries in 'em.
- Okay.
- And he's not going to be able to keep 'em all.
- What do you think he should do?
Remember what you want, right?
Remember what you're trying to do.
- At least one pair will work, he'd probably keep one set.
- So you're saying you should keep one set,
figuring out which set works? - Right.
- And then do what with the other two?
- We could donate them.
- Bruce, what do you think about that?
- I wouldn't mind having two.
Possibly, these won't work, but they may work
just 'cause the battery is exposed.
- Cathy, I think you said a wonderful thing,
which is I think I heard you to say Bruce,
well, maybe I didn't quite hear you say it,
but maybe you could say it to Bruce.
"Bruce, I think you need one set of walkie-talkies."
Is that the opinion? - Yes.
- Can I hear it?
- Bruce, I'd like to have one set of walkie-talkies.
- [Dr. Tolin] Bruce, what do you think?
- I think I'd rather have two sets.
- [Dr. Tolin] I wonder, could you be influenced
by your wife on this?
- Not very much.
- I was able to get Cathy to say,
"I think one set of walkie-talkies would be fine."
And then Bruce said, "I want two."
And maybe that's just the compromise
we have to land at now.
I'm just glad that I could get Cathy to say anything
other than, "Whatever makes you happy, Bruce."
Cathy, this is good.
I'm glad you're talking to Bruce.
I'm glad you're sharing your opinion.
Was it a little scary to do that?
- Yes. - What scared you about it?
- Because I figured he'd want all three of 'em.
- Yeah, he may, but you know what?
It's okay for you to have an opinion here too.
And Bruce, thank you for listening to Cathy too.
At the end of that exercise,
Bruce hung on to all three sets of walkie-talkies
with the idea that he's going to test each
and every one of them to see which ones work.
Now, do I believe he's really gonna do that?
Not really.
(tense music)
- Hey, Dr. Tolin.
- Just wanted to see kind of how things are going
and what's been happening.
- Well, Laz just ain't following my instructions
when he's throwing away tools and tool supplies.
- Well, drills and screws
I would call accessories or parts.
- These, you can have a picture,
but you can't hang them up, Lazarus.
- You have a hundred million more hooks, nails, screws.
You know, we've talked about it a couple times,
you know, and he seems to be in denial
about how many of each thing he has.
- [Bruce] You don't know.
You didn't listen to me
and you threw those things in the scrap.
- You're not listening to the-
- Well, you weren't listening to me
telling you instructions.
- He told me not to throw away tools.
So I threw away a little tiny screw
that he got for $1.50 at a thrift store.
And he got mad at me for that.
- Can we be clear though?
He wasn't throwing away tools,
he's throwing away hardware.
- Stuff like that is considered to be a tool.
So I know technically what I'm talking about.
I guess, you know, generically
what you think you're talking about,
but I know from a tool standpoint.
- Again that we keep getting into semantics
and losing the big picture.
- The big picture is this is a tool.
Anything that makes your life easier
or performs a function. - Then you have too many tools,
too many hardware, too many parts, too many accessories.
You know we're running out of time.
- Yeah, we're running out of time now
because of what you're doing.
- [Dr. Tolin] Well, let me just-
- That's making things go a lot quicker.
It's because of you- - No, it's not.
- We haven't gotten anything done.
- Well, hold on, hold on.
Let me jump in because I'm hearing Laz,
but I'm also hearing you saying that you know,
are concerned that you're gonna have to do without,
and that you will be without these things.
- And I'm also concerned he's not following instructions.
- Well, I hear it.
- And to me, it's like lying to me.
- Well, I hear that both of you are frustrated and angry.
And I also just want to point out that I think
behind that anger for both of you,
I don't know if you know this yet,
but I kind of suspect what's behind this is fear.
Laz, you're afraid for your parents.
You're afraid that they're gonna keep living this way
and not get better.
And Bruce, you're afraid of being without.
Those are powerful fears.
And those two fears are coming head to head right now.
- Take pride in my possessions.
I've earned the money to buy them, buy what I want.
Yeah. Yeah. - Okay?
And I like to take care of it.
- This situation is so above
what should be acceptable.
And I don't understand how you don't see that.
- I'm cleaning up the house slowly, Lazarus.
- Too slowly.
- According to you.
- According to everybody here.
When it comes to this issue, you have a problem.
- [Bruce] Which I've been working out slowly.
- Can you see that your son is trembling?
'Cause I see it. Do you see that?
Look at him.
Can you see him trembling?
- Not really. - I do. I see it.
Carolina, you see it? - See it.
- [Laz] I'm mad that he doesn't see
how crazy unhealthy this is.
- Yeah, you're mad and I think you're scared.
You're scared for what's gonna happen
to the people you love.
- We don't care about your stuff, we care about you.
We don't want you to die.
(tense music)
- Something accidentally gets thrown away or wasted,
it's not life or death because you have time.
And it's really easy to find it.
- I have to take money out and I'll have to take time out,
go find it, if I can't find it at the time
and pay, take three, five days to have it shipped in.
And in the meantime, something doesn't get done.
- Well, right now you already spend hours upon hours
looking for things that you can't find
or you never get to the project in the first place
because it's so-
- Well, because your mother had the garage
locked up from me, I couldn't even get into garage.
- You know, you keep throwing a lot of shade at mom, dad.
You keep blaming mom a lot for things.
- Well, she has had the garage locked up
for the last 10 years.
I have to get special permission from her to get it open
and then she gets mad.
- I do think you need to accept some of this as your doing too.
Some of these issues are your doing too.
- Which issues?
- The whole reason we're all here.
- Could I make a suggestion?
I think we're probably not gonna resolve this right now,
but I'm glad that both of you at least
got your opinions out on the table.
I understand that you don't agree,
but if I might just make a suggestion for going forward.
Sounds like Bruce, you'd be much happier
if Laz would at least set hardware aside.
Also, Bruce, I get a sense that Laz would like it
if you would hear what he's saying and try to absorb it.
You know, I think he said
some really powerful messages here.
Not the least of which, by the way, is that he loves you.
And I hope that you hear that too.
- I tried not to press too hard the first day or two,
but I thought with a little patience,
my dad would open up and start making quicker decisions
and come to a realization that he has an issue.
But it just hasn't happened and it just,
it really showed how much he prioritizes stuff
over everything else.
(pensive music)
- [Laz] You have more tarps,
yet he wanted to save the crappy first ones we found.
- Looks like hospital, okay. - No.
- So you want this one? - Yes. And that one too.
- [Beth] You can't have a clean house, Bruce,
if you're not letting go.
(tense music)
- Bruce, I wanted you to see this.
Laz, where did all this come from?
- 90% of this, except for the shovels,
came from right by that door.
- So that's all from right by the door?
Okay, so that's not even covering
what else is in the house.
Would it be okay if we took a peek in there too?
- Sure. - Okay.
(tense music)
Okay, rather than pull things out, Laz,
let's just look at it.
I think we can see it.
- Another weed eater. - We got it.
- Another weed eater. - Okay.
- That, I think is another weed eater.
At least eight, nine weed eaters right there,
two of which have not been opened.
- So Bruce, I think you have a saving problem.
Do you see it that way too?
- I don't understand what you mean.
- I think you're saving too much.
And I'm wondering if you agree with me.
- Are you saving money too much, or saving...?
- Bruce? - No, really.
- I think you know what I mean. - No, I just wanna be clear.
- Yeah, I think that you're saving too many tools
and I think that's become a problem for you.
And I'm wondering if you see it that way.
- No.
(tense music)
- [Beth] Bruce, you honestly don't think
you need all of those, do you?
- Battery life on those- - [Beth] Not the batteries.
- It's only one year.
If I get these things on sale at a super ridiculous price,
which is why I buy them at the time,
then it's worth the time and trouble to have them.
- [Jeff] Not when you don't have space.
- The only reason why these were here,
I didn't have access to the garage.
- And you still don't. - And you still don't,
and you're not gonna have it when we leave.
- Instead of making access to the garage,
you bought more, when probably the better solution
would've been to make room to the garage
and use the ones you already had.
- Cathy, my impression is that Bruce
is not going to listen to anybody but you.
He sure as heck isn't gonna listen to me.
He's not gonna listen to Laz,
he's not gonna listen to Carolina.
I don't think he's gonna listen to Jeff and Beth either.
Remember what I was saying before?
Sometimes when you love somebody,
you have to tell them to stop.
That's important.
This is self-destructive, I hope you can see that.
And I hope you can muster up the courage to tell Bruce
that he needs to stop this.
'Cause frankly, I think that's what Bruce needs
and I think that's how you express the love to him.
It's not by enabling him,
it's not by telling him this is all fine.
It's by telling him,
"Honey, I love you, but this needs to stop."
- I know y'all not gonna agree with me,
but I'm not gonna say anything about his tools.
- What is the reason for that? - I just can't.
Because it's just a part of him, that's Bruce.
- No, that's not Bruce. This is Bruce.
- What? - This is stuff.
- I'm not gonna tell him to stop.
- Cathy, let me kind of go back almost exactly a year ago
when Bruce was gravely ill and you called
the emergency people to come get him.
They could hardly get him out of the house.
And it's the combination of too many of the same things
in that house that had you,
I wish we had a tape recording of that,
so you could remember how you felt then
and how scared you were.
This is kind of a picture of what's going on
in all the other items in there.
We've talked about stuff now for three days
and everybody says,
"Okay, yeah, we don't care about the stuff,
we care about each other."
And yet the stuff is still here.
- Cathy, you love your husband? - Right.
- Very much, I assume? - Yes.
- You'd do anything to keep him healthy and safe, right?
- Right, right.
- Then tell him what he doesn't want to hear.
- I can't tell him that. I'm sorry.
- I know you feel kind of
a little timid right now and that's okay.
That's okay. I don't want to beat up on anybody.
I think the problem, Bruce,
is that Cathy is afraid to tell you what you need to hear.
So I guess I have to do it.
You got a serious hoarding problem
and you're not gonna live very long
if you keep up this behavior.
Well, this is a nice couple, they're nice people.
My heart goes out to them, but they are so sick.
We have another day and I hope
that when I see them tomorrow, Bruce will be willing
to let go of some of the stuff that he really wants to keep.
And I hope that Cathy will be willing
to say some hard things to her husband.
We can't give up hope.
We'll just have to see what happens.
- Good morning, everyone. - [All] Good morning.
- It's great to see you all this morning.
So today's plan is to make sure we can clean out the kitchen
and make pathways in the rest of the house
'cause that's kind of where we're at.
I feel kind of disappointed
that we can't get this house cleaned out for you guys,
but you know, you guys have to take ownership.
You guys have to let go of more
and you're just not there yet. And that's okay.
- I wanna walk the fine line to recognize
that we're not gonna get a cleaned out house
during this period of time.
It's just not gonna happen.
But I also don't want us to give up hope.
I want us to also be able to capitalize on the momentum
that has started and recognize that this could be
just a long-term process that has to take place.
I think building insight and awareness
is an ongoing process that's gonna take some time.
And I don't pretend that I'm going to all of a sudden
make those things happen right now.
But my hope is that with additional time
and some additional work, that you'll get there.
- Right. - [Dr. Tolin] Okay.
- We have few hours left, let's make the best of it, right?
In the spirit of still letting go, let's get started today.
(laughing)
Come on, let's go.
(tense music)
- Oh.
- What do you think mom? - It looks good.
- It's a little cleaner than it was.
- You think? (laughing)
(uplifting music)
- Come on in, let's all gather around.
We're gonna talk here.
So I'd be interested in hearing some reactions,
maybe starting with you, Cathy,
'cause it looks like you're having one.
- Yes. It looks fantastic.
- So, you like the way it looks.
- Yes, I do. - Okay, okay.
Bruce, how about you? What's your thought of this?
- It's good, it's nice to see my old entertainment center
for first time in 20 years.
Got a lot more light in here now.
(all laughing)
- Let me hear from Laz and Jeff and Beth,
what do you see when you look around?
- I see a house now.
There's actually a living room.
- [Laz] I still see a massive pile of stuff,
but it's a lot more organized
and this is definitely habitable.
- Gosh, it's just so much nicer.
Feels like a home again.
And the boxes are safer than the little path was before.
- Bruce and Cathy were able
to let go of two and a half dumpsters of trash,
three loads of scrap, and three loads of donations.
So I'm really proud of them.
- Carolina and her excellent team,
when it became obvious that discarding
large amounts of stuff was simply not gonna happen,
you kind of pivoted and focused more on just safety.
- Absolutely. - Yeah.
- Safety was the primary concern here.
When we couldn't clean it all out,
I needed to make sure you had three-foot paths
all over the main parts of your house.
And as we go through you'll see that that's what happened.
I would love to take you to the next section.
Are you guys ready for that?
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- All right, let's do it.
(gentle music)
Keep it coming. - Oh my gosh.
- Oh, new refrigerator. Thank you.
(Laz laughing)
Thank you. - [Laz] Wow.
- Oh. - You can open it, Bruce.
- [Dr. Tolin] Yeah, open it up.
(all laughing)
- You have enough groceries in there to make several meals.
And you have a table to sit at.
Did you check this out yet?
This is the table that was in the front.
We felt like it was gorgeous.
We put it together and here it is.
- [Bruce] That's our table that was in my dad's house.
- That's great. - Thank you so much.
- [Carolina] You're so welcome. Well, we're not done.
(laughing)
- One more room to look at, right?
- Let's go, yep. Let's head out.
(gentle music)
- [Cathy] Oh my God.
- [Laz] Almost don't recognize it.
- I knew it.
That's just beautiful.
Almost feels like a hotel, almost.
(all laughing)
- Obviously, there's still a lot more to do,
but I'm trying to stay optimistic.
You know, this is a huge improvement.
Now, they can actually live comfortably, safely.
They actually have space to work on
cleaning out the rest of the junk in the house
and to enjoy themselves to have a quality of life.
- As we talk about going forward in the future,
this seems like it would be a good time for us
to have a rather frank conversation.
So you do need mental health treatment,
good, quality mental health treatment
from somebody who understands hoarding disorder.
I've found a therapist and will pay for it.
But I really want the two of you, after we're gone,
to follow through with this mental health therapy.
And I'd love for your family
to encourage you to do that after we're gone.
Because for you to just do this all on your own
is gonna be tough,
you need somebody working with you.
Not just to clear out the stuff, which is important,
but also to help you keep practicing good,
healthy decisions for yourselves.
Would you go to some therapy?
- That'd be a start. - It would.
How about you Cathy? What's your willingness?
- We will start it. - You're okay with that?
- Mm-hmm. - Good.
That's music to my ears
'cause I want to make sure that you keep the ball rolling
and things keep going in a good direction
and they don't slide back, which I know can happen.
So your best defense against making it slide back
is to get into that therapy.
Well, I guess this is the place
where Carolina and I leave you to enjoy the home.
But I just wanna say it's been a real pleasure
working with all of you.
It's been nice meeting with you.
You're all just really nice people and I wish you the best.
- Thank you. - Vice versa.
- I'm getting a hug, no handshakes for me.
(gentle music)
- We'll start looking at every time we bring
something new into the house,
we'll start putting something old out.
Not my wife, 'cause she's not old.
(gentle music)