1 00:00:01,020 --> 00:00:03,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:11,660 --> 00:00:13,380 (TRAIN HORN BLASTS) 3 00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:16,500 (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYS) 4 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:16,740 ARCHIVE VOICEOVER: When the gas, the oil and the coal are gone, (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYS) 5 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:20,500 ARCHIVE VOICEOVER: When the gas, the oil and the coal are gone, 6 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:20,740 they must be replaced. the oil and the coal are gone, 7 00:00:20,740 --> 00:00:22,140 they must be replaced. 8 00:00:22,140 --> 00:00:22,340 they must be replaced. ERIC CAMPBELL: In the 1950s 9 00:00:22,340 --> 00:00:23,660 ERIC CAMPBELL: In the 1950s 10 00:00:23,660 --> 00:00:23,900 nuclear power was hailed ERIC CAMPBELL: In the 1950s 11 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:26,460 nuclear power was hailed as the future of energy. 12 00:00:26,460 --> 00:00:30,700 Atomic power is today's answer for tomorrow's problem. 13 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:36,700 Peter Dutton hopes it's the answer for next year's election. 14 00:00:37,820 --> 00:00:39,420 PETER DUTTON: Nuclear energy in Australia 15 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:39,660 PETER DUTTON: is an idea whose time has come. 16 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:41,900 is an idea whose time has come. 17 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,180 He's promising the Coalition could build the first advanced reactors 18 00:00:46,180 --> 00:00:48,420 in just over a decade. 19 00:00:49,460 --> 00:00:52,820 We can have cheaper, cleaner and consistent energy 20 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:54,420 if we adopt nuclear power. 21 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:56,380 No nuclear, no net zero. 22 00:00:56,380 --> 00:00:59,140 So, can you tell Australians how much these power plants will cost? 23 00:00:59,140 --> 00:01:02,380 I won't be making the announcement here today with you. 24 00:01:02,380 --> 00:01:06,020 The work hasn't been done, and if that work were to be done, 25 00:01:06,020 --> 00:01:09,020 the proposal would look more and more absurd. 26 00:01:09,020 --> 00:01:11,180 PROTESTERS: (CHANT) Two, four, six, eight! 27 00:01:11,180 --> 00:01:11,420 PROTESTERS: The cost of nukes is too great! 28 00:01:11,420 --> 00:01:13,660 The cost of nukes is too great! 29 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:16,100 How would you describe 30 00:01:16,100 --> 00:01:19,020 a policy to build seven nuclear plants in Australia? 31 00:01:19,020 --> 00:01:20,660 Recklessly stupid. 32 00:01:20,660 --> 00:01:22,820 And dangerously stupid. 33 00:01:23,780 --> 00:01:25,940 PETER BRADFORD: What we know about nuclear 34 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:29,340 is that it's capable of very large disappointments. 35 00:01:30,420 --> 00:01:32,060 PATTY DURAND: There are claims made 36 00:01:32,060 --> 00:01:32,300 that nuclear energy PATTY DURAND: There are claims made 37 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:34,300 that nuclear energy means cheaper electricity. 38 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:34,540 that nuclear energy I find that mindboggling. 39 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:36,220 I find that mindboggling. 40 00:01:37,180 --> 00:01:41,780 But there are plenty of supporters in the place where it all began. 41 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:43,340 I think nuclear energy is the solution 42 00:01:43,340 --> 00:01:45,140 to all of our issues with climate change. 43 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:47,940 ERIC MEYER: My message to Australians - 44 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:48,180 ERIC MEYER: give nuclear a shot. 45 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:49,700 give nuclear a shot. 46 00:01:50,660 --> 00:01:53,900 The Coalition says you only have to go to North America 47 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:56,500 to see what nuclear can do for us. 48 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:56,700 So, in this episode of Four Corners to see what nuclear can do for us. 49 00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:58,220 So, in this episode of Four Corners 50 00:01:58,220 --> 00:01:59,700 we're crossing the US 51 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:02,580 to examine whether this is the best way 52 00:02:02,580 --> 00:02:02,820 to examine whether this is the best way to tackle the climate crisis. 53 00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:04,700 to tackle the climate crisis. 54 00:02:17,540 --> 00:02:20,540 PRESENTER: Well, it is a big day for the opposition leader today, 55 00:02:20,540 --> 00:02:20,780 PRESENTER: Well, it is a big day really igniting the energy wars. 56 00:02:20,780 --> 00:02:23,020 really igniting the energy wars. 57 00:02:23,020 --> 00:02:24,380 PANELLIST: I mean, this is huge. 58 00:02:24,380 --> 00:02:27,700 This is going to be the biggest climate election we've ever had. 59 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:30,540 PETER DUTTON: Today we announce our seven locations 60 00:02:30,540 --> 00:02:33,860 that we have looked at in great detail over a long period of time 61 00:02:33,860 --> 00:02:34,100 that we have looked at in great that can host new nuclear sites. 62 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:38,140 that can host new nuclear sites. 63 00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:44,300 For decades Australian politicians talked about nuclear energy. 64 00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:47,700 We need to make sure that our economy can function 24/7, 65 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:51,660 and we can only do that with a strong baseload power. 66 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:55,500 Now Peter Dutton has staked his future on it. 67 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:57,420 I'm very happy for the election to be a referendum 68 00:02:57,420 --> 00:02:57,700 on energy, on nuclear, on power prices, on lights, going out, I'm very happy for the election to be a referendum 69 00:02:57,700 --> 00:03:01,460 on energy, on nuclear, on power prices, on lights, going out, 70 00:03:01,460 --> 00:03:04,340 on who has a sustainable pathway for our country going forward. 71 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:07,980 TED O'BRIEN: As our coal plants retire, 72 00:03:07,980 --> 00:03:11,940 they should be replaced with zero-emissions nuclear energy. 73 00:03:14,540 --> 00:03:18,500 The Coalition has identified seven retiring coal stations 74 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:21,780 that could be turned into nuclear power plants. 75 00:03:21,780 --> 00:03:22,020 that could be turned into nuclear power plants. Two sites are earmarked 76 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:23,300 Two sites are earmarked 77 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:26,740 for small modular reactors, or SMRs, 78 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:30,980 to be producing electricity by 2035. 79 00:03:30,980 --> 00:03:34,700 All seven plants would be government-owned. 80 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:39,980 Since the policy launch in June 81 00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:40,220 the Coalition has been busy spreading Since the policy launch in June 82 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:45,100 the Coalition has been busy spreading the promise of cheaper power. 83 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:54,540 If we don't do this, power bills are going to go up and up and up. 84 00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:58,580 Renewables are in the firing line. 85 00:03:58,580 --> 00:04:00,380 No other country in the world 86 00:04:00,380 --> 00:04:04,220 can keep the lights on 24/7 with the renewables-only policy. 87 00:04:04,220 --> 00:04:06,500 While the Coalition has named the sites, 88 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:09,260 it's avoided giving many other details. 89 00:04:09,260 --> 00:04:12,980 No costings, no modelling and no consultation. 90 00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:17,780 There's no price tag yet, nor any modelling to support the claim 91 00:04:17,780 --> 00:04:18,020 There's no price tag yet, nor power bills would be cheaper. 92 00:04:18,020 --> 00:04:19,580 power bills would be cheaper. 93 00:04:19,580 --> 00:04:23,740 We want the information out there in bite-sized bits, if you like. 94 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:26,740 We'll release the next stage in due course. 95 00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:29,940 Even if the Coalition 96 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:31,500 wins the next election, 97 00:04:31,500 --> 00:04:33,540 it's not clear how it would lift 98 00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:35,180 federal and state bans 99 00:04:35,180 --> 00:04:37,020 on nuclear energy 100 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:40,580 when even some LNP colleagues are resisting. 101 00:04:40,580 --> 00:04:40,860 No, no, no. I've got to be really clear. when even some LNP colleagues are resisting. 102 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:43,180 No, no, no. I've got to be really clear. 103 00:04:43,180 --> 00:04:44,620 It is not part of our plan. 104 00:04:44,620 --> 00:04:44,860 It is not part of our plan. MARK SPEAKMAN: We are facing enormous challenges in getting 105 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:47,580 MARK SPEAKMAN: We are facing enormous challenges in getting 106 00:04:47,580 --> 00:04:47,860 clean, reliable, ample, affordable MARK SPEAKMAN: We are facing enormous challenges in getting 107 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:51,260 clean, reliable, ample, affordable 108 00:04:51,260 --> 00:04:51,500 clean, reliable, ample, affordable energy supply in the next few years. 109 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:53,020 energy supply in the next few years. 110 00:04:53,020 --> 00:04:54,500 We can't wait for nuclear. 111 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:56,340 But an overriding message 112 00:04:56,340 --> 00:04:58,900 is that you just have to look overseas 113 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:01,380 to see what nuclear energy could do here. 114 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:05,620 Most other comparable countries in the world 115 00:05:05,620 --> 00:05:08,140 have either embraced or are about to embrace 116 00:05:08,140 --> 00:05:09,940 zero-emissions nuclear technology. 117 00:05:14,020 --> 00:05:16,500 So, can you tell Australians how much these power plants will cost? 118 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:16,780 Yes, we'll be releasing our full economics So, can you tell Australians how much these power plants will cost? 119 00:05:16,780 --> 00:05:19,100 Yes, we'll be releasing our full economics 120 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:20,380 well ahead of the next election. 121 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:20,580 well ahead of the next election. You don't know now? 122 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:21,500 You don't know now? 123 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:25,420 Well, so much as I think you are a terrific guy 124 00:05:25,420 --> 00:05:26,860 and I love the program, 125 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:30,100 I won't be making the announcement here today with you. 126 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:32,300 Do you know what percentage of electricity 127 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:33,660 these nuclear plants would produce? 128 00:05:33,660 --> 00:05:35,140 All of that information, 129 00:05:35,140 --> 00:05:38,260 as I've said many times before through other media outlets 130 00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:41,220 will be released well ahead of the next election. 131 00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:42,540 PROTESTERS: (CHANT) Shame, Dutton, shame! 132 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:42,780 PROTESTERS: Shame, Dutton, shame! 133 00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:44,220 Shame, Dutton, shame! 134 00:05:44,220 --> 00:05:44,420 Shame, Dutton, shame! Shame, Dutton, shame! 135 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:47,980 Shame, Dutton, shame! 136 00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:48,220 Shame, Dutton, shame! Anti-nuclear activists are happily filling the void. 137 00:05:48,220 --> 00:05:51,860 Anti-nuclear activists are happily filling the void. 138 00:05:51,860 --> 00:05:52,100 Anti-nuclear activists We don't want your nuclear. 139 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:53,140 We don't want your nuclear. 140 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:54,820 We want renewable energy. 141 00:05:54,820 --> 00:05:56,500 Now. This decade. 142 00:05:56,500 --> 00:05:58,140 (CHEERING) 143 00:05:58,140 --> 00:06:01,420 It's hard to think of a policy launch from opposition 144 00:06:01,420 --> 00:06:06,940 that's as bold, as controversial and as scant on detail as this. 145 00:06:06,940 --> 00:06:09,180 More than three months on there is still little sense 146 00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:11,700 of how much these reactors would cost, 147 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:11,940 of how much how long it would take to build them 148 00:06:11,940 --> 00:06:13,660 how long it would take to build them 149 00:06:13,660 --> 00:06:16,620 or how they would bring power bills down. 150 00:06:16,620 --> 00:06:19,500 What the Coalition DOES say is "just look overseas," 151 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:24,900 particularly in the home of nuclear energy, the United States of America. 152 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:43,140 This is America's latest manifestation of the nuclear dream. 153 00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:49,540 The Vogtle plant in the southern state of Georgia 154 00:06:49,540 --> 00:06:49,780 The Vogtle plant now has two new reactors, 155 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:52,540 now has two new reactors, 156 00:06:52,540 --> 00:06:55,500 a milestone for the US industry 157 00:06:55,500 --> 00:07:00,020 that's had hardly any new construction for decades. 158 00:07:00,940 --> 00:07:07,060 The plant's four units generate zero-emissions electricity 24/7, 159 00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:11,340 powering more than a million homes and businesses. 160 00:07:11,340 --> 00:07:15,900 Peter Dutton says Vogtle's new Westinghouse reactors 161 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:20,620 are the kind of advanced technology Australia needs. 162 00:07:22,340 --> 00:07:24,660 PETER DUTTON: We want to rely on the international experience. 163 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:27,580 We don't want to be the purchaser of the first in class 164 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:29,980 or have an Australian-made technology. 165 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:33,180 We want to rely on the Westinghouse AP1000. 166 00:07:33,180 --> 00:07:33,420 We want to rely SONG: # God bless America... # 167 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:38,580 SONG: # God bless America... # 168 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:42,780 The US government had to chip in to get the giant reactors built... 169 00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:45,900 # America! America! # 170 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:51,940 ..the Department of Energy giving US$12 billion in loan guarantees. 171 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:56,460 Thank you for your service to our nation 172 00:07:56,460 --> 00:08:00,740 in providing this arsenal of clean power. 173 00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:05,780 So, now let's draw up some more battle plans for some more reactors. 174 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:10,620 I don't know about you, but I, for one, am reporting for duty. 175 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:17,820 But some see this as a cautionary tale against building big plants. 176 00:08:19,140 --> 00:08:23,420 The AP1000 reactors opened seven years late 177 00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:25,940 at more than double the budgeted cost. 178 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:31,180 The final bill of around US$35 billion 179 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:35,820 makes them among the most expensive nuclear generators ever built. 180 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:42,220 PETER BRADFORD: If nuclear power were a person 181 00:08:42,220 --> 00:08:47,500 it would be weeping with its head in its hands at the Vogtle story. 182 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:47,740 it would be weeping with its head in its hands at the Vogtle story. 100% cost overrun. 183 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:50,500 100% cost overrun. 184 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:52,900 Far, far more 185 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:54,340 than the same amount 186 00:08:54,340 --> 00:08:54,540 than the same amount of electricity, clean electricity, 187 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:57,180 of electricity, clean electricity, 188 00:08:57,180 --> 00:08:58,620 could have been procured for 189 00:08:58,620 --> 00:09:04,060 if Georgia had gone in a different direction back in 2007, 2008, 190 00:09:04,060 --> 00:09:07,180 when these decisions were being made. 191 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:09,540 Vogtle is clear proof 192 00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:12,660 that large nuclear construction 193 00:09:12,660 --> 00:09:15,140 is not an economic way to go. 194 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:20,180 REPORTER: The heat is cranking up for your weekend, 195 00:09:20,180 --> 00:09:22,220 and tonight we are tracking a heat wave, 196 00:09:22,220 --> 00:09:25,700 bringing the hottest temperatures of the year to metro Atlanta. 197 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:25,940 bringing the hottest temperatures Yeah! 198 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:27,100 Yeah! 199 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:27,340 ANNA HAMER: Yeah! 200 00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:29,060 ANNA HAMER: The heat and the humidity together, 201 00:09:29,060 --> 00:09:29,300 ANNA HAMER: it just knocks you out. 202 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:31,300 it just knocks you out. 203 00:09:31,300 --> 00:09:31,540 I shouldn't have to keep my thermostat at 80 degrees it just knocks you out. 204 00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:34,300 I shouldn't have to keep my thermostat at 80 degrees 205 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:34,540 I shouldn't have to keep and be uncomfortable in my own home 206 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:36,900 and be uncomfortable in my own home 207 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:37,140 and be uncomfortable in my own home can still make profit. 208 00:09:37,140 --> 00:09:40,540 so that the corporations can still make profit. 209 00:09:44,020 --> 00:09:45,900 Consumers like Anna Hamer 210 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:46,140 are paying the price Consumers like Anna Hamer 211 00:09:46,140 --> 00:09:49,020 are paying the price of the cost overruns. 212 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:53,220 In July she was hit with her highest power bill ever - 213 00:09:53,220 --> 00:09:53,460 In July she was hit US$618 for one month. 214 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:57,060 US$618 for one month. 215 00:09:58,340 --> 00:10:01,900 They were telling us everything was going to be OK with this plant, 216 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:04,140 that it would be on time and it would be on budget. 217 00:10:04,140 --> 00:10:07,740 It's over budget, and we are paying for that. 218 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:07,980 It's over budget, And that seems wrong to me. 219 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:09,900 And that seems wrong to me. 220 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:13,940 (TRAIN HORN BLASTS) 221 00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:17,780 ROBERT SEARFOSS: Patty, my electric bills are going up. 222 00:10:17,780 --> 00:10:23,180 I haven't done the math on them yet, but I know they're going up. 223 00:10:23,180 --> 00:10:24,100 I think the... 224 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:25,740 Pensioner Robert Searfoss 225 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:29,940 is angry that ratepayers were also slugged with a construction tariff 226 00:10:29,940 --> 00:10:32,380 while the reactors were being built. 227 00:10:32,380 --> 00:10:32,620 Nuclear power, meaning cheaper electricity for the customer, while the reactors were being built. 228 00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:37,900 Nuclear power, meaning cheaper electricity for the customer, 229 00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:38,140 Nuclear power, meaning cheaper is absolute nonsense. 230 00:10:38,140 --> 00:10:40,740 is absolute nonsense. 231 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:40,940 is absolute nonsense. It's not true. 232 00:10:40,940 --> 00:10:42,460 It's not true. 233 00:10:44,660 --> 00:10:47,260 Yeah, and I'm hoping that they bring back the consumer... 234 00:10:47,260 --> 00:10:47,500 Yeah, and I'm hoping Patty Durand and Kimberly Scott 235 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:49,740 Patty Durand and Kimberly Scott 236 00:10:49,740 --> 00:10:52,980 are part of a coalition of community organisations 237 00:10:52,980 --> 00:10:58,340 campaigning on behalf of consumers hit by rising electricity bills. 238 00:10:58,340 --> 00:10:58,580 campaigning on behalf of consumers People are suffering. 239 00:10:58,580 --> 00:11:00,020 People are suffering. 240 00:11:00,020 --> 00:11:00,220 They're having a hard time People are suffering. 241 00:11:00,220 --> 00:11:01,340 They're having a hard time 242 00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:03,860 trying to pay their... you know, not only their utilities 243 00:11:03,860 --> 00:11:05,380 but their rent, their mortgage, 244 00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:05,580 but their rent, their mortgage, other bills. 245 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:06,380 other bills. 246 00:11:06,380 --> 00:11:10,540 Their quality of life is being impacted by these rate increases. 247 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:10,820 There have been over 10,000 posts online Their quality of life is being impacted by these rate increases. 248 00:11:10,820 --> 00:11:14,220 There have been over 10,000 posts online 249 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:14,460 There have been on social media like Reddit 250 00:11:14,460 --> 00:11:16,900 on social media like Reddit 251 00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:17,140 on social media like Reddit and Nextdoor and Facebook and other sites 252 00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:20,020 and Nextdoor and Facebook and other sites 253 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:23,660 of people astonished when they open their bills, 254 00:11:23,660 --> 00:11:25,980 shocked, horrified and upset. 255 00:11:25,980 --> 00:11:29,460 And the number of complaints to the Public Service Commission 256 00:11:29,460 --> 00:11:29,700 And the number of complaints has increased tenfold. 257 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:31,300 has increased tenfold. 258 00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:37,300 PROMO VOICEOVER: The AP1000 nuclear power plant generates clean energy 259 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,460 while providing the reliable electricity supply 260 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:40,700 while providing that today's world requires. 261 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:42,940 that today's world requires. 262 00:11:42,940 --> 00:11:43,180 This is the power that today's world requires. 263 00:11:43,180 --> 00:11:47,140 This is the power of the Westinghouse AP1000 plant. 264 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:54,260 Nuclear construction costs at Vogtle 265 00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:54,500 and a failed project Nuclear construction costs at Vogtle 266 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:57,100 and a failed project in South Carolina 267 00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:57,340 and a failed project sent Westinghouse bankrupt in 2017. 268 00:11:57,340 --> 00:12:00,340 sent Westinghouse bankrupt in 2017. 269 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:03,300 But, under new owners, 270 00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:05,340 its AP1000 technology 271 00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:08,980 is being embraced in China and Eastern Europe. 272 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:14,780 I think there are power plants the world over 273 00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:17,300 where there have been lessons to be learned, 274 00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:17,540 whether they're good lessons where there have been lessons to be learned, 275 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:18,460 whether they're good lessons 276 00:12:18,460 --> 00:12:21,340 or lessons of things that can be done better. 277 00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:21,580 or lessons I think, on the Vogtle plant, 278 00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:23,540 I think, on the Vogtle plant, 279 00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:23,780 I think, on the Vogtle plant, there are lessons there that we have learned for our own policy. 280 00:12:23,780 --> 00:12:27,060 there are lessons there that we have learned for our own policy. 281 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:30,180 Well, Vogtle hasn't brought prices down. It's put them up. 282 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:33,340 Well, again, this is where the big lessons are. 283 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:34,500 That decision would ultimately... 284 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:38,100 Ted O'Brien, the Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy, 285 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:41,140 has spent years investigating the nuclear industry. 286 00:12:41,140 --> 00:12:41,380 has spent years If you look at the Vogtle example, 287 00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:42,660 If you look at the Vogtle example, 288 00:12:42,660 --> 00:12:42,900 we should not be adopting If you look at the Vogtle example, 289 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,980 we should not be adopting first-of-a-kind technology. 290 00:12:45,980 --> 00:12:46,220 we should not be adopting We should only be adopting 291 00:12:46,220 --> 00:12:47,620 We should only be adopting 292 00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:50,100 what's referred to as 'next of a kind', 293 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:51,980 proven technology. 294 00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:52,180 When you do the first of a kind, proven technology. 295 00:12:52,180 --> 00:12:53,620 When you do the first of a kind, 296 00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:55,300 maybe not the bankruptcy, 297 00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:57,540 but you do understand when you build 298 00:12:57,540 --> 00:12:57,780 but you do understand when you build the first-of-a-kind unit 299 00:12:57,780 --> 00:12:59,260 the first-of-a-kind unit 300 00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:03,380 that you will have to establish the process. 301 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:07,740 It will not be perfect the first time you do it. 302 00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:12,020 But on the positive side, once it's done, the road's been paved. 303 00:13:12,020 --> 00:13:15,340 You can reproduce that with less effort, 304 00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:15,580 You can reproduce that with less uncertainty and less risk. 305 00:13:15,580 --> 00:13:17,820 with less uncertainty and less risk. 306 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:20,260 And I think that's the benefit of where we are today. 307 00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:26,140 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 308 00:13:26,140 --> 00:13:28,220 And one of the things that we're looking forward to, 309 00:13:28,220 --> 00:13:31,340 and we have visitors from Australia here, 310 00:13:31,340 --> 00:13:35,620 is that our technology and the things that we're innovating here 311 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:39,780 will be leveraged to better society across the globe. 312 00:13:39,780 --> 00:13:43,460 Steven Biegalski is Chair of Nuclear Engineering 313 00:13:43,460 --> 00:13:46,820 at the Georgia Institute of Technology. 314 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:50,700 He says, as each new AP1000 reactor is built, 315 00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:50,940 He says, the price should come down. 316 00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:52,700 the price should come down. 317 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:54,420 Nuclear Regulatory Commission... 318 00:13:54,420 --> 00:13:54,660 It's the design that has Nuclear Regulatory Commission... 319 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:59,340 It's the design that has all the supply chain worked out 320 00:13:59,340 --> 00:13:59,580 It's the design that has and it has everything that we need. 321 00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:02,260 and it has everything that we need. 322 00:14:02,260 --> 00:14:05,540 It's a proven entity that can be reproduced, 323 00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:07,820 and I hope it IS reproduced moving forward. 324 00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:09,660 Within this last year 325 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:12,140 there's a lot of exciting things going on in the nuclear industry 326 00:14:12,140 --> 00:14:13,660 across the US and the world. 327 00:14:13,660 --> 00:14:15,180 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 328 00:14:15,180 --> 00:14:17,180 One of the challenges for Australia 329 00:14:17,180 --> 00:14:19,820 would be training enough nuclear engineers. 330 00:14:19,820 --> 00:14:23,900 I was originally focused on, like, sulphur decomposition... 331 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:28,260 These students will soon graduate and join the US workforce. 332 00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:33,420 They hope the Vogtle expansion marks the start of an industry boom. 333 00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:35,220 SPENCER SMITH: I do find it inspiring 334 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:37,740 that I'm in the same state that they were built in. 335 00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:38,020 It's nice that, like, two of them are built, that I'm in the same state that they were built in. 336 00:14:38,020 --> 00:14:39,620 It's nice that, like, two of them are built, 337 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:39,860 so, hopefully more to come. two of them are built, 338 00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:41,740 so, hopefully more to come. 339 00:14:41,740 --> 00:14:44,420 Hopefully it's the first domino that'll fall. 340 00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:44,700 Hopefully it's the first domino that'll fall. EMMA ZOCCOLI: I think nuclear energy is the solution 341 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:46,620 EMMA ZOCCOLI: I think nuclear energy is the solution 342 00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:48,780 to all of our issues with climate change. 343 00:14:48,780 --> 00:14:49,060 We need a new form of energy development to all of our issues with climate change. 344 00:14:49,060 --> 00:14:51,500 We need a new form of energy development 345 00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:51,740 We need a new form that's going to be more sustainable. 346 00:14:51,740 --> 00:14:54,060 that's going to be more sustainable. 347 00:14:56,580 --> 00:15:00,020 Nuclear energy provides nearly a fifth of US power 348 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:00,260 Nuclear energy provides and almost half its clean energy. 349 00:15:00,260 --> 00:15:03,180 and almost half its clean energy. 350 00:15:03,180 --> 00:15:05,420 But its reactors are ageing 351 00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:05,660 and no other commercial plants But its reactors are ageing 352 00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:08,780 and no other commercial plants are being built. 353 00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:16,780 Peter Bradford was a member of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, 354 00:15:16,780 --> 00:15:19,500 which licenses commercial reactors. 355 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:22,820 PETER BRADFORD: It was the back end of the golden era 356 00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:23,060 PETER BRADFORD: It was the back end in US nuclear construction, 357 00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:25,300 in US nuclear construction, 358 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:29,860 and the NRC licensed some 20 plants 359 00:15:29,860 --> 00:15:33,060 while I was an NRC commissioner. 360 00:15:34,260 --> 00:15:37,260 I became sceptical of nuclear power 361 00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:41,420 as a result of its economic failures 362 00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:44,660 in the 1980s and '90s. 363 00:15:44,660 --> 00:15:44,900 There's always something available to do the job in the 1980s and '90s. 364 00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:47,540 There's always something available to do the job 365 00:15:47,540 --> 00:15:50,980 at least as cleanly, usually more cleanly, 366 00:15:50,980 --> 00:15:51,220 at least as cleanly, usually more cleanly, and much more inexpensively. 367 00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:53,180 and much more inexpensively. 368 00:15:55,860 --> 00:15:58,980 The US is not the only nuclear country 369 00:15:58,980 --> 00:15:59,220 The US is not struggling to build new plants. 370 00:15:59,220 --> 00:16:01,820 struggling to build new plants. 371 00:16:01,820 --> 00:16:02,060 France's latest reactor struggling to build new plants. 372 00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:05,820 France's latest reactor opened 12 years behind schedule 373 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:09,660 and around 10 billion euros over budget. 374 00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:13,820 Britain's Hinkley Point plant is running six years late 375 00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:14,060 Britain's Hinkley Point plant and facing a £20 billion overrun. 376 00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:17,180 and facing a £20 billion overrun. 377 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,260 I started covering the industry in 1980. 378 00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:28,140 I have never seen a project come in on time or budget, 379 00:16:28,140 --> 00:16:28,420 I have never seen a project come in on time or budget, and they've come in way, way over budget 380 00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:31,380 and they've come in way, way over budget 381 00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:33,140 and way over time. 382 00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:35,260 It amazes me that there's so much hype 383 00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:38,620 about something that's been such an abject failure, in my opinion. 384 00:16:38,620 --> 00:16:41,940 I mean, yeah, it's produced electricity, but at what cost? 385 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:43,500 And... 386 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:45,340 ..maybe I'm sounding way, way too negative, 387 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:49,100 but I don't think that we should be wasting our money on it. 388 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:50,900 Plain and simple. 389 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:53,380 Can you name a single nuclear project 390 00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:55,980 that has come in under budget or on budget in recent years? 391 00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:56,260 Well, the most recent finished build was that in the UAE, that has come in under budget or on budget in recent years? 392 00:16:56,260 --> 00:17:02,260 Well, the most recent finished build was that in the UAE, 393 00:17:02,260 --> 00:17:02,540 Well, the most recent finished build was that in the UAE, which was done on time and on budget. 394 00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:04,380 which was done on time and on budget. 395 00:17:05,660 --> 00:17:09,140 Now the UAE, not unlike Australia, 396 00:17:09,140 --> 00:17:09,380 did not have experience Now the UAE, not unlike Australia, 397 00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:12,540 did not have experience with nuclear energy, 398 00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:17,260 but they were able to introduce nuclear into a balanced mix. 399 00:17:17,260 --> 00:17:17,500 but they were able to introduce A South Korean consortium 400 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:18,860 A South Korean consortium 401 00:17:18,860 --> 00:17:22,020 built four reactors in the United Arab Emirates 402 00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:23,300 over 12 years. 403 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:27,020 We know that their experience is an inspiration to the world 404 00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:31,140 as we all try to go to decarbonise towards net zero. 405 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,940 But, even under an authoritarian regime, 406 00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:36,980 each reactor was connected to the grids 407 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:39,500 around three years later than expected. 408 00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:45,180 The Coalition also cites the Canadian province of Ontario as a model, 409 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:45,420 The Coalition also cites the Canadian saying its three nuclear plants 410 00:17:45,420 --> 00:17:47,660 saying its three nuclear plants 411 00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:51,660 contribute to much lower power bills than Australia. 412 00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:55,180 The plants are owned and subsidised by the provincial government. 413 00:17:56,780 --> 00:17:59,260 So, if you look at Ontario today, 414 00:17:59,260 --> 00:18:02,100 it's probably around about $0.18 a kilowatt hour. 415 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:04,340 In Australia we're paying up to $0.56. 416 00:18:04,340 --> 00:18:06,860 But that's not entirely because of nuclear or renewables. 417 00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:09,420 There are different circumstances in each country. 418 00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:10,820 You're comparing apples and oranges. 419 00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:12,460 No, not at all. Not at all. 420 00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:15,900 Because, when you actually speak to the Canadians, 421 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:19,620 one of the reasons they see power prices coming down 422 00:18:19,620 --> 00:18:23,020 is because of the role of nuclear in the mix. 423 00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:23,260 is because of the role of nuclear And again... 424 00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:24,020 And again... 425 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:28,140 Ted O'Brien says a decision on the nuclear technology for Australia 426 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:31,740 will only be made after a 2.5-year feasibility study. 427 00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:34,500 We'll be having a community engagement process. 428 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:38,780 Then after then there will be a matching of technologies 429 00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:39,020 Then after then there will be with each site, 430 00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:40,540 with each site, 431 00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:42,060 and it'll be up to an independent 432 00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:44,620 nuclear-energy coordinating authority 433 00:18:44,620 --> 00:18:49,900 to advise the government on what technology best suits what site. 434 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:52,140 What if it turns out the only technology that is available 435 00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:54,740 is hugely expensive and will put up power prices? 436 00:18:54,740 --> 00:18:54,980 is hugely expensive Would you abandon the nuclear policy? 437 00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:56,540 Would you abandon the nuclear policy? 438 00:18:56,540 --> 00:19:00,780 Well, that hasn't been the lessons learnt from overseas. 439 00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:03,460 I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. 440 00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:03,700 I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it! 441 00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:04,460 I love it! 442 00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:07,700 Hey, how familiar are you with nuclear energy? 443 00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:12,140 If Australia were to follow North America down the nuclear path, 444 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:14,780 it would need to secure public support. 445 00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:18,700 Because that's just water vapour. It's steam. 446 00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:20,900 Maybe I'll even get to hug a storage cask. 447 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:21,140 Maybe I'll even get to hug (CHEERING) 448 00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:23,780 (CHEERING) 449 00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:27,820 In the US there's an increasingly visible movement 450 00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:28,060 of so-called 'nuke-fluencers' - visible movement 451 00:19:28,060 --> 00:19:29,980 of so-called 'nuke-fluencers' - 452 00:19:29,980 --> 00:19:30,220 of so-called 'nuke-fluencers' - nuclear influencers using creative tactics to push the cause. 453 00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:34,900 nuclear influencers using creative tactics to push the cause. 454 00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:35,140 (SINGS) nuclear influencers using creative tactics to push the cause. 455 00:19:35,140 --> 00:19:36,860 (SINGS) 456 00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:53,460 (SINGS) # Hydro 457 00:19:53,460 --> 00:19:56,980 # Geothermal too... # 458 00:19:56,980 --> 00:20:01,260 I founded a non-profit, Generation Atomic, in 2016... 459 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:01,500 I founded a non-profit, # No CO2. # 460 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:04,380 # No CO2. # 461 00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:04,620 ..because nuclear power is one # No CO2. # 462 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:07,780 ..because nuclear power is one of our most important solutions 463 00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:08,020 ..because nuclear power is one for climate change, 464 00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:09,300 for climate change, 465 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:10,700 and most people 466 00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:10,900 don't see that truth. and most people 467 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:13,060 don't see that truth. 468 00:20:13,060 --> 00:20:14,500 And we need to... 469 00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:16,980 We need to get that message out there 470 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:19,900 for us to have our best chances to decarbonise in time. 471 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:20,660 (LAUGHS) 472 00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:22,620 Oh, man. 473 00:20:22,620 --> 00:20:22,860 The cutest, least practical clothing in existence. Oh, man. 474 00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:27,780 The cutest, least practical clothing in existence. 475 00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:28,060 The cutest, least practical clothing in existence. As young progressives who grew up after the Cold War, 476 00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:31,940 As young progressives who grew up after the Cold War, 477 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:34,220 Eric Meyer and his pregnant wife, Sarah, 478 00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:34,460 Eric Meyer don't fear nuclear. 479 00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:35,700 don't fear nuclear. 480 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:37,500 Strawberries from Rosie... 481 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:43,100 They see it as a tool to make the planet safe for their child. 482 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:46,340 I want to be able to look my daughter in the eye 483 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:50,220 and her children, if she decides to have any, 484 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:56,540 and say that I did everything I could to address this. 485 00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:59,340 And the particles move faster than the speed of light... 486 00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:02,900 Social media is their main tool for changing attitudes, 487 00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:03,140 Social media is their main tool helped by supporters across the US. 488 00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:05,380 helped by supporters across the US. 489 00:21:05,380 --> 00:21:07,340 We put the waste in these storage casks, 490 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:08,980 which just chill on site of the plant. 491 00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:11,980 They're safe enough to hug, even kiss, 492 00:21:11,980 --> 00:21:12,220 They're safe enough to hug, even if you're pregnant. 493 00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:13,460 even if you're pregnant. 494 00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:14,740 (CHUCKLES) 495 00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:14,980 So, we got 23% clean, (CHUCKLES) 496 00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:19,020 So, we got 23% clean, and of that most of it's nuclear. 497 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:19,260 So, we got 23% clean, One of the other gas plants... 498 00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:20,540 One of the other gas plants... 499 00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:23,140 I love the optimism of the atomic age. 500 00:21:23,140 --> 00:21:23,380 I love the optimism You know, it was a time 501 00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:24,620 You know, it was a time 502 00:21:24,620 --> 00:21:24,860 when we were really dreaming You know, it was a time 503 00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:27,140 when we were really dreaming of the future 504 00:21:27,140 --> 00:21:27,380 when we were really dreaming as a better place than it is today. 505 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:29,620 as a better place than it is today. 506 00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:32,620 And you just don't see that as much now. 507 00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:35,820 And now it's... We're just trying to cling on 508 00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:38,060 and weather the apocalypse, essentially. 509 00:21:47,020 --> 00:21:51,300 Eric Meyer took us out to see one of the two ageing nuclear plants 510 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:53,540 in his home state of Minnesota. 511 00:21:53,540 --> 00:21:56,580 Monticello opened in the 1970s 512 00:21:56,580 --> 00:21:58,820 before soaring costs 513 00:21:58,820 --> 00:22:03,340 started to make building new nuclear power plants uneconomical. 514 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:09,980 It cost about $500 million to build. 515 00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:12,540 That would be quite a deal these days. 516 00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:15,140 Why are they so expensive now? Oh, man. 517 00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:18,460 Well, we've had changes in the regulation that... 518 00:22:18,460 --> 00:22:21,940 Additional redundant safety systems upon safety systems. 519 00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:25,580 But a big part of it is that we forgot how to build them. 520 00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:31,620 My message to Australians - give nuclear a shot. 521 00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:31,860 My message to Australians - We need every tool that we can have. 522 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:34,300 We need every tool that we can have. 523 00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:37,220 And it's one of our best clean-energy sources. 524 00:22:38,540 --> 00:22:40,900 ARCHIVE VOICEOVER: It may take decades, 525 00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:44,140 but success will be rewarding beyond measure. 526 00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:48,580 Nuclear energy began in an era when anything seemed possible. 527 00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:53,540 Reactors could supply our major energy needs for centuries to come. 528 00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:56,700 We could both have our cake and eat it. 529 00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:00,220 Here, the nuclear reaction is contained... 530 00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:03,340 After atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, 531 00:23:03,340 --> 00:23:08,460 scientists searched for a peaceful use for this astonishing technology. 532 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:12,620 In 1951 they proved it could create electricity 533 00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:15,020 by lighting four light bulbs. 534 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:19,540 DOCUMENTARY VOICEOVER: Electricity flows from atomic energy. 535 00:23:22,980 --> 00:23:27,860 You can still sense that optimism at the place where it all began, 536 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:28,100 You can still sense that optimism the Idaho National Laboratory. 537 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,220 the Idaho National Laboratory. 538 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:34,620 Nearly 6,000 people work here. 539 00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:37,820 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 540 00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:40,500 Nuclear engineer Shannon Bragg-Sitton 541 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:45,060 is an INL director working on clean-energy systems. 542 00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:48,900 SHANNON BRAGG-SITTON: This is one of the largest hot cells in the world. 543 00:23:49,860 --> 00:23:52,100 Behind this window 544 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,340 we work with materials that have been irradiated. 545 00:23:56,820 --> 00:24:01,300 Today, this high-security facility, run by the US Department of Energy, 546 00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:04,740 is at the forefront of nuclear research. 547 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:07,580 We haven't built reactors for quite some time 548 00:24:07,580 --> 00:24:09,340 because the energy demands weren't there. 549 00:24:09,340 --> 00:24:12,900 But, as we see demands begin to increase again, 550 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:15,660 and, really, within the last five or six years, 551 00:24:15,660 --> 00:24:15,900 and, really, we've begun to see a major push 552 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:17,580 we've begun to see a major push 553 00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:17,820 toward net-zero commitments we've begun to see a major push 554 00:24:17,820 --> 00:24:20,060 toward net-zero commitments globally. 555 00:24:20,060 --> 00:24:20,340 So, we have to start taking a look at this differently. toward net-zero commitments globally. 556 00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:22,300 So, we have to start taking a look at this differently. 557 00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:22,540 So, we have to start taking a look at this differently. So, is nuclear making a comeback now? 558 00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:24,260 So, is nuclear making a comeback now? 559 00:24:24,260 --> 00:24:24,500 Nuclear is absolutely So, is nuclear making a comeback now? 560 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,820 Nuclear is absolutely making a comeback. 561 00:24:26,820 --> 00:24:27,100 There's a new business model in nuclear, Nuclear is absolutely making a comeback. 562 00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:28,900 There's a new business model in nuclear, 563 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:31,020 which is called 'harvesting subsidies'. 564 00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:33,300 And if the government money wasn't there, 565 00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:33,580 And if the government money wasn't there, I don't think you'd see as much activity 566 00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:35,620 I don't think you'd see as much activity 567 00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:35,860 I don't think you'd see as you see at the present moment. 568 00:24:35,860 --> 00:24:38,100 as you see at the present moment. 569 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,940 So, nuclear industry does not stand up on its own two feet? 570 00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:42,420 No, it never has. 571 00:24:45,060 --> 00:24:47,980 Nuclear's share of global power generation 572 00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:48,220 has been falling for years. Nuclear's share of global power generation 573 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:51,140 has been falling for years. 574 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:52,420 Reversing that may depend 575 00:24:52,420 --> 00:24:53,900 on reactors being built 576 00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,300 faster and cheaper. 577 00:24:57,740 --> 00:25:01,100 PROMO VOICEOVER: Investment in clean energy is paying off. 578 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:04,460 The holy grail for the US Department of Energy 579 00:25:04,460 --> 00:25:07,020 and a key plank of Peter Dutton's policy 580 00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:07,260 and a key plank is the small modular reactor. 581 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:09,740 is the small modular reactor. 582 00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:09,940 Small modular reactors, or SMRs, is the small modular reactor. 583 00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:12,780 Small modular reactors, or SMRs, 584 00:25:12,780 --> 00:25:15,580 are simpler, smaller-scale manufactured versions 585 00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:15,820 of traditional reactors. manufactured versions 586 00:25:15,820 --> 00:25:17,380 of traditional reactors. 587 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:17,620 of traditional reactors. The components can be built in US-based factories 588 00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:20,740 The components can be built in US-based factories 589 00:25:20,740 --> 00:25:24,060 and shipped to site locations by truck, rail or barge, 590 00:25:24,060 --> 00:25:26,740 making them quicker to build and far less expensive 591 00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:26,980 making them quicker to build than large-plant construction. 592 00:25:26,980 --> 00:25:28,820 than large-plant construction. 593 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:29,060 But they're a long way from than large-plant construction. 594 00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:33,540 But they're a long way from being widely available commercially. 595 00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:38,580 Only one project has won regulatory approval in the United States. 596 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:40,900 PROMO VOICEOVER: NuScale Power has developed 597 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,340 a new modular light-water reactor nuclear power plant 598 00:25:44,340 --> 00:25:47,820 to supply energy for electrical generation. 599 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:52,940 Last November it was scrapped due to soaring costs, 600 00:25:52,940 --> 00:25:55,180 even after the Department of Energy 601 00:25:55,180 --> 00:25:58,860 pledged more than $500 million in grants. 602 00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:02,060 SHANNON BRAGG-SITTON: It is a challenge to get through that, 603 00:26:02,060 --> 00:26:06,420 but we still have to say that first unit of anything will cost more. 604 00:26:06,420 --> 00:26:08,460 Somebody has to bear that cost. 605 00:26:09,620 --> 00:26:12,020 And it's a challenge that we do have to get over. 606 00:26:12,020 --> 00:26:14,900 That's where the federal investment, the loans come in. 607 00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:18,260 Yes, there was significant DOE support, 608 00:26:18,260 --> 00:26:18,500 Yes, there was significant but we need to get over that hurdle 609 00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:19,820 but we need to get over that hurdle 610 00:26:19,820 --> 00:26:20,060 so that we can prove but we need to get over that hurdle 611 00:26:20,060 --> 00:26:22,300 so that we can prove the costs can come down. 612 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:25,380 I can sense the optimism and the determination, 613 00:26:25,380 --> 00:26:25,620 I can sense the optimism but there's no certainty 614 00:26:25,620 --> 00:26:26,940 but there's no certainty 615 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:31,380 in cheap SMRs coming online, being mass produced for the market, 616 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:32,420 is there? 617 00:26:32,420 --> 00:26:34,660 There's no certainty in tomorrow. 618 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:38,140 So, no, I can't give you 100% certainty 619 00:26:38,140 --> 00:26:41,980 that the economics will play out exactly like we hope they will. 620 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:44,580 I can't give you certainty that energy storage can be built 621 00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:48,820 to the extent necessary to support a 100%-renewable solution. 622 00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:49,060 to the extent necessary to support There's not certainty in that. 623 00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:50,820 There's not certainty in that. 624 00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:51,060 The best solution we have There's not certainty in that. 625 00:26:51,060 --> 00:26:54,220 The best solution we have for a clean-energy future 626 00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:59,100 is an energy mix that meets the demands appropriately for a region. 627 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:04,060 How are you going to have small modular reactors by 2035 628 00:27:04,060 --> 00:27:07,020 on a mass-produced basis that would make them cheaper? 629 00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:07,300 So, by the time Australia would be making procurement decisions, on a mass-produced basis that would make them cheaper? 630 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:12,380 So, by the time Australia would be making procurement decisions, 631 00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:12,620 So, by the time Australia would be there will be multiple SMR designs. 632 00:27:12,620 --> 00:27:15,100 there will be multiple SMR designs. 633 00:27:27,260 --> 00:27:30,780 The latest attempt at an SMR in the United States 634 00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:32,820 is in this small coal town. 635 00:27:34,260 --> 00:27:37,700 We've come to Kemmerer in south-west Wyoming. 636 00:27:42,380 --> 00:27:46,340 Like many Australian communities built on fossil fuels, 637 00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:46,580 Like many Australian communities it's weathered boom and bust. 638 00:27:46,580 --> 00:27:49,500 it's weathered boom and bust. 639 00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:53,540 Now it's the host of a billion-dollar gamble. 640 00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:59,300 They are going through a journey from coal to nuclear, 641 00:27:59,300 --> 00:27:59,540 They are going through a journey which I believe is very similar 642 00:27:59,540 --> 00:28:01,180 which I believe is very similar 643 00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:03,260 to what Australia should be considering. 644 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:09,020 Ted O'Brien visited Wyoming last year 645 00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:11,620 on what he called a 'due-diligence tour' 646 00:28:11,620 --> 00:28:14,740 to look at the viability of nuclear for Australia. 647 00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:19,380 The Wyoming story is a fascinating one 648 00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:22,460 because here you have a state in the US 649 00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:26,460 which has been traditionally very proudly coal. 650 00:28:26,460 --> 00:28:26,700 which has been I think that is a wonderful example 651 00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:29,220 I think that is a wonderful example 652 00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:33,380 of how you can practically go from coal to nuclear 653 00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:33,620 of how you can practically and leverage the existing workforce. 654 00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:35,620 and leverage the existing workforce. 655 00:28:36,580 --> 00:28:42,020 The man behind this SMR project is Microsoft founder, Bill Gates. 656 00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:45,740 He's putting $1 billion of his own money in 657 00:28:45,740 --> 00:28:48,780 to try to build the first commercial SMR. 658 00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:56,100 This is a big step toward safe, abundant zero-carbon energy. 659 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:00,940 The small modular reactor 660 00:29:00,940 --> 00:29:01,180 would replace the town's The small modular reactor 661 00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:04,340 would replace the town's coal-fired power plant, 662 00:29:04,340 --> 00:29:06,860 which is scheduled to close next decade, 663 00:29:06,860 --> 00:29:09,220 and use its transmission lines. 664 00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:15,820 Bill Gates' point man is clean-energy lobbyist Jeff Navin. 665 00:29:16,780 --> 00:29:19,340 JEFF NAVIN: If you've lived next to a coal plant, 666 00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:22,300 you're going to love living next to a nuclear power plant. 667 00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:22,540 you're going to love living It's clean, it's quiet, 668 00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:24,300 It's clean, it's quiet, 669 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,340 there's no soot, there's no particulate matter, 670 00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:26,580 there's no soot, there's no big ash pile. 671 00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:27,780 there's no big ash pile. 672 00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:27,980 It's a really good neighbour, there's no big ash pile. 673 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:29,260 It's a really good neighbour, 674 00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:32,220 it provides great jobs for many, many decades. 675 00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:34,740 And it's a good part of your community. 676 00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:41,660 Bill Gates has worked hard to build community support, 677 00:29:41,660 --> 00:29:41,900 Bill Gates has worked hard even crashing a local poker game. 678 00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:43,660 even crashing a local poker game. 679 00:29:50,940 --> 00:29:53,180 Oh, boy. Alright. Here it goes. 680 00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:55,820 And he called his bluff, and he was right. 681 00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:59,220 And Mr Gates had a small pocket pair, which is almost nothing, 682 00:29:59,220 --> 00:29:59,460 And Mr Gates had a small pocket and he called me and won. 683 00:29:59,460 --> 00:30:01,580 and he called me and won. 684 00:30:01,580 --> 00:30:03,060 (LAUGHS) 685 00:30:03,060 --> 00:30:04,620 I still sit back and go, 686 00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:06,460 "Was that for real?" 687 00:30:06,460 --> 00:30:06,700 OK, so, that's 5,000. "Was that for real?" 688 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:11,380 OK, so, that's 5,000. We got one, two, three, four. 689 00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:11,620 OK, so, that's 5,000. Another 50. Don't show weakness. 690 00:30:11,620 --> 00:30:13,500 Another 50. Don't show weakness. 691 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:15,020 Don't let her bluff you. 692 00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:16,620 You know she hasn't lost yet. 693 00:30:16,620 --> 00:30:16,860 Joyce Chadwick, You know she hasn't lost yet. 694 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:19,460 Joyce Chadwick, born and raised in Kemmerer, 695 00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:22,740 thinks the nuclear plant is just what the town needs. 696 00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:22,980 thinks the nuclear plant Oh, man! 697 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:24,340 Oh, man! 698 00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:24,580 It can be my neighbour, Oh, man! 699 00:30:24,580 --> 00:30:26,820 It can be my neighbour, I don't care. 700 00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:29,060 I'm glad it's coming here. I really am. 701 00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:29,300 I'm glad it's coming here. (LAUGHS) 702 00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:30,820 (LAUGHS) 703 00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:32,540 Won every hand tonight. 704 00:30:32,540 --> 00:30:32,780 I've got a lot of confidence Won every hand tonight. 705 00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:35,020 I've got a lot of confidence in the plant coming here. 706 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:36,580 What do you think it's going to do for the town? 707 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:36,820 What do you think it's going to do Oh, it's definitely jobs, you know. 708 00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:38,540 Oh, it's definitely jobs, you know. 709 00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:40,740 And not just jobs. It's bringing careers. 710 00:30:40,740 --> 00:30:43,580 This plant's going to be around 60 years, 80 years. 711 00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:43,820 This plant's going to be around You know, who knows how long? 712 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:45,020 You know, who knows how long? 713 00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:47,660 So, it's careers for our children and our grandchildren. 714 00:30:47,660 --> 00:30:51,900 Yeah, I may be the only negative person at the table, I'm guessing. 715 00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:53,780 I'm not 100% sure. 716 00:30:53,780 --> 00:30:55,340 I'm just... 717 00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:58,420 I like my sleepy little Kemmerer town. 718 00:30:58,420 --> 00:30:59,820 I'm... 719 00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:01,780 ..not sure... 720 00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:04,940 ..how safe it's really going to be. 721 00:31:04,940 --> 00:31:07,180 (HORSE NEIGHS) 722 00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:24,420 Steve Peternell is a fourth-generation rancher. 723 00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:29,820 His two sons aim to stay on as the fifth. 724 00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:30,060 His two sons (CATTLE LOW) 725 00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:31,380 (CATTLE LOW) 726 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:36,740 Raising cattle is as much a part of Wyoming life as mining coal. 727 00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:40,140 We get along great with the coal mine. 728 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:43,500 They give you access to their pipeline for water all summer, 729 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:43,740 They give you access to their and it's a very good relationship. 730 00:31:43,740 --> 00:31:46,220 and it's a very good relationship. 731 00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:46,460 And that's the way and it's a very good relationship. 732 00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:49,660 And that's the way he'd like things to stay. 733 00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:54,020 You know, I realise people need jobs and the town to grow, but... 734 00:31:54,020 --> 00:31:54,260 ..I like MY way of life, and... You know, I realise people need jobs and the town to grow, but... 735 00:31:54,260 --> 00:31:56,740 ..I like MY way of life, and... 736 00:31:56,740 --> 00:32:00,340 ..and that may even be selfish on my part, but I'm... 737 00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:00,580 ..and that may even be selfish on my part, but I'm... That's just how I feel. 738 00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:01,740 That's just how I feel. 739 00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:03,100 (HORSE SNORTS) 740 00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:05,300 Just throughout the history of nuclear power 741 00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,300 there's always that smidgen of a chance 742 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:09,820 that something could go wrong. 743 00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:13,300 So, I'm just leery that way. 744 00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,900 I do not want nuclear in my backyard. 745 00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:20,500 Bill Gates is yet to convince the ranchers. 746 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:20,740 Bill Gates is yet to convince The immediate priority 747 00:32:20,740 --> 00:32:22,300 The immediate priority 748 00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:22,540 is to win over The immediate priority 749 00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:25,700 is to win over the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. 750 00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:32,140 As yet, the experimental reactor doesn't have approval, 751 00:32:32,140 --> 00:32:35,620 so, they can only build the bits around it. 752 00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:40,220 JEFF NAVIN: We expect to get our licence from the NRC 753 00:32:40,220 --> 00:32:42,740 in another year and a half to two years. 754 00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:44,020 And I suspect, when that happens, 755 00:32:44,020 --> 00:32:44,260 And I suspect, when that happens, number of orders coming up 756 00:32:44,260 --> 00:32:46,940 we'll start to see a significant number of orders coming up 757 00:32:46,940 --> 00:32:50,540 so people can get in line and get into the queue. 758 00:32:50,540 --> 00:32:50,780 so people can get in line and get into the queue. In this industry 759 00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:52,420 In this industry 760 00:32:52,420 --> 00:32:56,820 vendor claims about cheaper nuclear costs 761 00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:57,980 have a long, 762 00:32:57,980 --> 00:32:58,220 have a long, well-documented and very sad history. 763 00:32:58,220 --> 00:33:00,700 well-documented and very sad history. 764 00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:00,940 well-documented They just don't come true. 765 00:33:00,940 --> 00:33:03,180 They just don't come true. 766 00:33:03,180 --> 00:33:06,420 There is no basis for believing 767 00:33:06,420 --> 00:33:11,060 that this utterly unproven technology 768 00:33:11,060 --> 00:33:11,300 that this utterly unproven is going to sweep in 769 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:12,860 is going to sweep in 770 00:33:12,860 --> 00:33:16,420 and make a success of a field 771 00:33:16,420 --> 00:33:16,660 that up to now has been and make a success of a field 772 00:33:16,660 --> 00:33:20,460 that up to now has been an unmitigated economic failure. 773 00:33:22,620 --> 00:33:25,980 The SMR would only produce a third of the electricity 774 00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:26,220 The SMR would only produce of a big nuclear plant. 775 00:33:26,220 --> 00:33:28,020 of a big nuclear plant. 776 00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:28,260 The idea is that it would partner of a big nuclear plant. 777 00:33:28,260 --> 00:33:32,540 The idea is that it would partner much better with renewables. 778 00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:36,020 The problem with conventional nuclear reactors 779 00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:39,540 is they can't really vary how much power they're producing. 780 00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:41,780 It's not efficient, it's not economical. 781 00:33:41,780 --> 00:33:44,020 So, they tend to run at full bore 782 00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:46,900 whether the grid needs the electricity or not. 783 00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:50,540 But this small modular reactor, if it works, 784 00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:50,780 But this small modular reactor, would be different 785 00:33:50,780 --> 00:33:52,060 would be different 786 00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:53,780 because, instead of heating water, 787 00:33:53,780 --> 00:33:55,940 it would heat molten sodium 788 00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:57,540 that can store power 789 00:33:57,540 --> 00:34:01,820 that could be used to top up the grid if it's running short. 790 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:05,700 Well, in a place like Wyoming, 791 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,180 they have a tremendous wind resource. 792 00:34:08,180 --> 00:34:10,980 When the wind doesn't blow, we can ramp up to meet that demand. 793 00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:11,220 When the wind doesn't blow, When the wind is blowing, 794 00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:12,460 When the wind is blowing, 795 00:34:12,460 --> 00:34:12,700 we can scale back down When the wind is blowing, 796 00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:14,980 we can scale back down and store that energy. 797 00:34:20,580 --> 00:34:24,020 So, where does all this leave Australia? 798 00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:26,940 Like the Kemmerer plant, 799 00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:32,380 Australia's 18 coal power plants are expected to close next decade. 800 00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,260 It will not just leave a huge shortfall in the grid, 801 00:34:38,260 --> 00:34:43,260 by 2050 electricity consumption is expected to more than double. 802 00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:47,940 It's only in opposition 803 00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:48,180 that the Coalition It's only in opposition 804 00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:52,460 that the Coalition has embraced nuclear as a solution. 805 00:34:55,700 --> 00:34:58,500 The problem with it is that it doesn't make sense economically, 806 00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:04,180 and there was nobody in any sort of senior responsible position 807 00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:04,420 and there was nobody in any sort of senior responsible position during my time as prime minister 808 00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:07,260 during my time as prime minister 809 00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:11,580 who took nuclear power seriously from an economic point of view. 810 00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:15,260 There are plenty of people there in the Coalition party room 811 00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:16,820 that know this is nonsense. 812 00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:22,580 You see, Dutton is only interested in winning a political point. 813 00:35:23,540 --> 00:35:26,180 And what he's seeking to do 814 00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:26,420 is to disrupt And what he's seeking to do 815 00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:30,900 is to disrupt the transition to renewable energy. 816 00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:31,140 is to disrupt (HUMS) 817 00:35:31,140 --> 00:35:33,820 (HUMS) 818 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:38,140 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 819 00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:40,860 ANNOUNCER: Hello. Thank you very much. 820 00:35:41,820 --> 00:35:44,540 Mr Dutton will do an initial presentation. 821 00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:49,620 PETER DUTTON: I want our children to inherit a prosperous economy 822 00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:52,580 underpinned by cheaper and consistent energy. 823 00:35:52,580 --> 00:35:55,380 When Peter Dutton addressed a business lunch last month, 824 00:35:55,380 --> 00:35:55,620 When Peter Dutton addressed he was still on message... 825 00:35:55,620 --> 00:35:57,860 he was still on message... 826 00:35:57,860 --> 00:36:00,940 Zero-emission nuclear power is our only chance 827 00:36:00,940 --> 00:36:01,180 Zero-emission nuclear power to reach net zero by 2050. 828 00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:03,300 to reach net zero by 2050. 829 00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:04,740 ..and short on detail. 830 00:36:04,740 --> 00:36:07,900 We'll have more information about the cost of nuclear. 831 00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:08,140 We'll have more information We'll have it in good time. 832 00:36:08,140 --> 00:36:09,500 We'll have it in good time. 833 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:13,060 But he insisted renewables ARE part of the plan... 834 00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:15,300 The Coalition, like other countries, 835 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:20,220 sees renewables and nuclear as companions, not as competitors. 836 00:36:20,220 --> 00:36:20,460 sees renewables and nuclear ..they just need help. 837 00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:22,020 ..they just need help. 838 00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:26,020 No country can run effectively on part-time power, 839 00:36:26,020 --> 00:36:28,660 on solar, wind and batteries alone. 840 00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:31,100 Baseload power is critical. 841 00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:34,380 'Baseload power' is the continuous supply of energy 842 00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:37,140 you get from nuclear or coal plants. 843 00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:39,540 The Coalition argues it's essential 844 00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:42,420 to back up weather-dependent renewables. 845 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:45,220 The best battery technology, 846 00:36:45,220 --> 00:36:48,100 which we all want to be better than what it is today, 847 00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:48,340 which we all want to be better only provides a few hours of backup. 848 00:36:48,340 --> 00:36:51,140 only provides a few hours of backup. 849 00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:53,620 So, renewables must be firmed up. 850 00:36:53,620 --> 00:36:57,140 To firm renewables, which are intermittent 851 00:36:57,140 --> 00:37:01,140 because they operate when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, 852 00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:06,740 you need something that you can turn on and off at the flick of a switch. 853 00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:09,940 And that ain't a nuclear power station. 854 00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:16,940 Many energy experts say batteries combined with hydro and gas backup 855 00:37:16,940 --> 00:37:19,220 can do the job. 856 00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:23,620 PETER BRADFORD: The term 'baseload power' 857 00:37:23,620 --> 00:37:23,860 is outmoded now. PETER BRADFORD: The term 'baseload power' 858 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:25,140 is outmoded now. 859 00:37:25,140 --> 00:37:25,380 You don't need 1,000-megawatt plants is outmoded now. 860 00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:29,660 You don't need 1,000-megawatt plants running all the time 861 00:37:29,660 --> 00:37:29,900 You don't need 1,000-megawatt plants to give it to you. 862 00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:30,940 to give it to you. 863 00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:31,180 to give it to you. You can combine so-called intermittent sources - 864 00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:35,540 You can combine so-called intermittent sources - 865 00:37:35,540 --> 00:37:35,780 You can combine wind, solar - 866 00:37:35,780 --> 00:37:38,460 wind, solar - 867 00:37:38,460 --> 00:37:39,740 first of all, with each other 868 00:37:39,740 --> 00:37:43,060 because they're not all available at exactly the same time, 869 00:37:43,060 --> 00:37:43,300 because they're not all available but, secondly, with batteries 870 00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:45,540 but, secondly, with batteries 871 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:51,380 so that you get the storage ability to store it when you have an excess 872 00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:53,180 and use it when you need it. 873 00:37:55,060 --> 00:37:59,380 It is possible for people who care equally about climate change 874 00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:01,980 to land on opposite sides of this debate. 875 00:38:01,980 --> 00:38:04,500 Hey. Hey, mate. 876 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:06,540 Hey. Good to see you. Good to see you. 877 00:38:06,540 --> 00:38:09,940 Clean-energy analyst Simon Holmes a Court 878 00:38:09,940 --> 00:38:12,620 and environmental engineer David Collins 879 00:38:12,620 --> 00:38:12,860 and environmental engineer are self-confessed energy nerds. 880 00:38:12,860 --> 00:38:15,100 are self-confessed energy nerds. 881 00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:20,580 Last year they did a nuclear road trip together around the US. 882 00:38:20,580 --> 00:38:22,740 This was the day we were both in Vogtle. 883 00:38:22,740 --> 00:38:25,300 That's my photography. You were a good photographer. 884 00:38:25,300 --> 00:38:30,060 Yeah, two weeks in the car together, driving around North America... 885 00:38:30,060 --> 00:38:31,540 Yeah. ..we covered a lot of ground 886 00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:35,100 and found...you know, found a lot of common ground. 887 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:36,060 It's true. So true. 888 00:38:36,060 --> 00:38:40,340 But they came back with starkly different conclusions. 889 00:38:40,340 --> 00:38:40,580 But they came back Meanwhile, demand is going up 890 00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:42,380 Meanwhile, demand is going up 891 00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:45,540 because nuclear cannot supply 892 00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:48,420 the energy that we need in the time frame we need it. 893 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:48,660 the energy that we need Right? 894 00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:49,540 Right? 895 00:38:49,540 --> 00:38:52,740 That's an absolutely critical point, that time frame. 896 00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:57,420 (STEAM HISSES) 897 00:38:57,420 --> 00:39:01,700 Both are influential players in the politics around energy. 898 00:39:01,700 --> 00:39:01,940 Both are influential players A gigawatt of gas costs you... 899 00:39:01,940 --> 00:39:03,340 A gigawatt of gas costs you... 900 00:39:03,340 --> 00:39:03,580 Simon Holmes a Court A gigawatt of gas costs you... 901 00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:06,300 Simon Holmes a Court backed teal independence 902 00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:10,020 to win Coalition seats at the last election. 903 00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:13,940 Nuclear energy has a place, but that place is not Australia. 904 00:39:13,940 --> 00:39:14,220 The resources that we have in wind and solar are the best in the world. Nuclear energy has a place, but that place is not Australia. 905 00:39:14,220 --> 00:39:17,780 The resources that we have in wind and solar are the best in the world. 906 00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:19,660 To turn our back on that 907 00:39:19,660 --> 00:39:21,460 and pursue a technology 908 00:39:21,460 --> 00:39:21,660 and pursue a technology where we do not have any advantage 909 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:24,220 where we do not have any advantage 910 00:39:24,220 --> 00:39:25,700 is...is crazy. 911 00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:31,540 David Collins is often cited by Peter Dutton as an energy expert. 912 00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:36,100 He says what he learned in North America was a revelation. 913 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:39,580 I learned that nuclear is the only technology 914 00:39:39,580 --> 00:39:39,820 I learned that nuclear that will deliver zero-carbon energy 915 00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:42,620 that will deliver zero-carbon energy 916 00:39:42,620 --> 00:39:45,140 for not just Australia but for the world. 917 00:39:45,140 --> 00:39:45,420 If Australia fails to adopt nuclear energy, for not just Australia but for the world. 918 00:39:45,420 --> 00:39:47,900 If Australia fails to adopt nuclear energy, 919 00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:50,860 then we will not achieve zero carbon. 920 00:39:53,860 --> 00:39:55,820 We can talk about renewables in a moment, 921 00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:57,340 but renewables, batteries, 922 00:39:57,340 --> 00:39:59,500 just the batteries alone would cost you trillions. 923 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:01,500 Multiple trillions. No. No, I don't... 924 00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:03,860 I mean, show me your numbers because I don't think there's... 925 00:40:03,860 --> 00:40:05,780 Absolutely... ..any science behind those numbers. 926 00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:07,500 I'm happy to do that, but I'm just... 927 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:11,580 David Collins believes AEMO, the energy market operator, 928 00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:15,860 has dramatically underestimated the cost of a renewable transition. 929 00:40:15,860 --> 00:40:18,980 So, they've totally neglected those costs. 930 00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:22,980 My spreadsheet said it was going to cost around $1.3 trillion. 931 00:40:22,980 --> 00:40:23,220 My spreadsheet said it was going Absolutely. 932 00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:24,060 Absolutely. 933 00:40:24,060 --> 00:40:24,300 But that's not including Absolutely. 934 00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:26,540 But that's not including the batteries 935 00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:27,900 that you would need for storage. 936 00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:29,140 (APPLAUSE) 937 00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:33,140 That estimate has become the Coalition mantra. 938 00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:33,380 Engineer Dr David Hayden Collins That estimate has become the Coalition mantra. 939 00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:35,060 Engineer Dr David Hayden Collins 940 00:40:35,060 --> 00:40:39,380 says that, when the replacement of panels and turbines are factored in, 941 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:39,660 says that, when the replacement of panels and turbines are factored in, the cost is likely to be $1.3 trillion - 942 00:40:39,660 --> 00:40:43,900 the cost is likely to be $1.3 trillion - 943 00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:46,820 five times greater than AEMO's estimate. 944 00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:53,180 It's not just AEMO's figures that have been attacked. 945 00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:58,020 The Coalition has also slammed the CSIRO GenCost report 946 00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:02,980 that found nuclear power could cost twice as much as renewables. 947 00:41:02,980 --> 00:41:06,700 At GenCost they were looking purely at the generation. 948 00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:06,940 At GenCost they were looking It's foolish. 949 00:41:06,940 --> 00:41:08,180 It's foolish. 950 00:41:08,180 --> 00:41:13,580 Generation is only a tiny part of a renewables solution to the problem. 951 00:41:13,580 --> 00:41:15,380 You have to consider energy storage. 952 00:41:15,380 --> 00:41:17,860 You have to consider energy transmission. 953 00:41:18,820 --> 00:41:21,500 The CSIRO rejects his analysis. 954 00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:21,740 The GenCost report The CSIRO rejects his analysis. 955 00:41:21,740 --> 00:41:23,700 The GenCost report is really accurate. 956 00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:28,260 We pick the best figures, the most relevant figures to Australia, 957 00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:30,900 whether that's for renewables, whether it's for nuclear, 958 00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:32,940 whether it's for gas, whether it's for coal. 959 00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:33,180 whether it's for gas, And we present the data 960 00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:34,740 And we present the data 961 00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:34,940 And we present the data in an objective, considered way. 962 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:37,980 in an objective, considered way. 963 00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:39,860 So, you stand by this report? 964 00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:42,500 Absolutely 100% stand by the report 965 00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:45,580 and the team behind the report. 966 00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:49,780 The CSIRO's GenCost report also questioned 967 00:41:49,780 --> 00:41:53,340 whether a single nuclear reactor could be built 968 00:41:53,340 --> 00:41:56,260 before the last coal-fired plant was gone. 969 00:41:56,260 --> 00:42:00,940 It looks like it will take at least 15 years to produce those reactors, 970 00:42:00,940 --> 00:42:05,220 and really going to be hard to have them online before 2040. 971 00:42:05,220 --> 00:42:05,460 and really going to be hard Mm, by which time, of course, 972 00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:07,140 Mm, by which time, of course, 973 00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:07,380 AEMO says our ageing fleet Mm, by which time, of course, 974 00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:10,140 AEMO says our ageing fleet of coal-fired power stations 975 00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:10,380 AEMO says our ageing fleet will have to close. 976 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:11,620 will have to close. 977 00:42:11,620 --> 00:42:16,940 Yeah, it's going to be hard for nuclear to make a major contribution 978 00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:20,780 to our path to net zero before 2040. 979 00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:24,100 How are we going to fast-track nuclear reactors? 980 00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:26,740 There is no shortage of political opponents 981 00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:31,700 who will always point to an example of a project not going well 982 00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:32,940 or they want to basically say 983 00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:34,620 Australia does not have the capability. 984 00:42:34,620 --> 00:42:34,860 Australia does not I'll let them run that argument. 985 00:42:34,860 --> 00:42:36,540 I'll let them run that argument. 986 00:42:36,540 --> 00:42:36,780 When Australians have put their mind I'll let them run that argument. 987 00:42:36,780 --> 00:42:39,340 When Australians have put their mind to things, they've gotten it done. 988 00:42:42,340 --> 00:42:46,060 SIMON HOLMES A COURT: I think of all of humanity's achievements 989 00:42:46,060 --> 00:42:46,300 SIMON HOLMES A COURT: I think in the last hundred years or so 990 00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:47,940 in the last hundred years or so 991 00:42:47,940 --> 00:42:48,180 nuclear energy in the last hundred years or so 992 00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:50,820 nuclear energy is one of the standouts. 993 00:42:52,220 --> 00:42:56,900 I think one day the nuclear sector might have a product 994 00:42:56,900 --> 00:42:58,660 that fits the Australian market. 995 00:42:58,660 --> 00:42:59,980 What's really clear 996 00:42:59,980 --> 00:43:03,020 is that the nuclear sector does not have a product at the moment 997 00:43:03,020 --> 00:43:06,620 that fits into what Australia needs right now. 998 00:43:09,580 --> 00:43:14,500 To be quite honest, I think from the Liberal Party's point of view, 999 00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:18,180 nuclear power is something to talk about but never to build. 1000 00:43:18,180 --> 00:43:22,260 Malcolm Turnbull had no interest in nuclear power, saw no point in it. 1001 00:43:22,260 --> 00:43:24,820 Scott Morrison was briefed about small modular reactors, 1002 00:43:24,820 --> 00:43:26,700 but decided it was electorally too risky. 1003 00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:30,860 Why is Peter Dutton embracing this policy now from opposition 1004 00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:31,100 Why is Peter Dutton embracing when it is, electorally, 1005 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:32,660 when it is, electorally, 1006 00:43:32,660 --> 00:43:32,900 a problematic policy, when it is, electorally, 1007 00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:36,060 a problematic policy, it's a challenging policy to sell? 1008 00:43:36,060 --> 00:43:36,300 a problematic policy, Well, there's no doubt 1009 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:37,820 Well, there's no doubt 1010 00:43:37,820 --> 00:43:41,300 that the reason we are looking at a balanced energy mix, 1011 00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:44,380 including zero-emissions nuclear energy, 1012 00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:44,620 including zero-emissions is it's in the national interest. 1013 00:43:44,620 --> 00:43:46,460 is it's in the national interest. 1014 00:43:46,460 --> 00:43:48,300 The only way you can do it 1015 00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,820 is to learn the lessons from overseas 1016 00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:53,060 and to apply it in the Australian context. 1017 00:43:53,060 --> 00:43:55,100 And those lessons tell us 1018 00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:57,900 that, unless you have nuclear in the mix, 1019 00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:01,700 well, prices will keep going higher, you risk the lights going out 1020 00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:03,700 and you won't reach net zero. 1021 00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:11,380 The Coalition insists it's time for a full nuclear debate. 1022 00:44:11,380 --> 00:44:11,620 The Coalition insists it's time But, until it releases costings, 1023 00:44:11,620 --> 00:44:13,860 But, until it releases costings, 1024 00:44:13,860 --> 00:44:17,220 it's asking Australia to take it on trust. 1025 00:44:18,580 --> 00:44:20,900 If nuclear advocates can show me 1026 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:21,140 that adding nuclear If nuclear advocates can show me 1027 00:44:21,140 --> 00:44:23,740 that adding nuclear to Australia's grid 1028 00:44:23,740 --> 00:44:26,620 would help us decarbonise faster and cheaper, 1029 00:44:26,620 --> 00:44:28,260 then I'll be in the trenches with them. 1030 00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:34,860 If they want Australians to embrace nuclear, they've got to do the work. 1031 00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:35,100 If they want Australians to embrace But that work hasn't been done. 1032 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:37,380 But that work hasn't been done. 1033 00:44:44,220 --> 00:44:46,620 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 1034 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:03,700 Captions by Red Bee Media 1035 00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:03,940 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation Captions by Red Bee Media 1036 00:45:03,940 --> 00:45:05,900 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation