1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:02,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:16,740 ALEXANDRA BLUCHER: Around the country, 3 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:17,020 ALEXANDRA BLUCHER: Around the country, are being detained indefinitely. 4 00:00:17,020 --> 00:00:20,180 people with disabilities are being detained indefinitely. 5 00:00:22,140 --> 00:00:24,980 MICHAEL HEATLEY: I see the forensic system as a beast. 6 00:00:24,980 --> 00:00:25,220 MICHAEL HEATLEY: I see Do you have any trust in the system? 7 00:00:25,220 --> 00:00:27,260 Do you have any trust in the system? 8 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:27,500 Not at all. Not at all. Do you have any trust in the system? 9 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:30,060 Not at all. Not at all. Nothing. No trust at all. 10 00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:34,900 Caged and deemed too dangerous to be released, 11 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:35,140 Caged and deemed too dangerous their needs too complex to treat. 12 00:00:35,140 --> 00:00:38,660 their needs too complex to treat. 13 00:00:38,660 --> 00:00:38,900 MARY BURGESS: their needs too complex to treat. 14 00:00:38,900 --> 00:00:40,700 MARY BURGESS: They're facing a hopeless future, 15 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:44,580 which I think amounts to a form of torture. 16 00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:49,100 Some have committed horrendous acts of violence. 17 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:50,940 IAN MCKEOWN: He can be dangerous. Yes, he can be. 18 00:00:50,940 --> 00:00:51,180 IAN MCKEOWN: He can be dangerous. I'm not going to gloss over it. 19 00:00:51,180 --> 00:00:52,660 I'm not going to gloss over it. 20 00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:54,100 This man has some issues. 21 00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:58,980 People with an intellectual disability or serious mental illness 22 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:01,460 are being locked away out of sight... 23 00:01:06,460 --> 00:01:10,420 ..in a system that's failing them and their families. 24 00:01:10,420 --> 00:01:14,140 MIKE PORTCH: It was an attack on a mentally impaired man 25 00:01:14,140 --> 00:01:15,660 purely out to destroy him. 26 00:01:15,660 --> 00:01:16,860 And it did. 27 00:01:16,860 --> 00:01:18,980 That's what happened. 28 00:01:19,940 --> 00:01:22,540 WENDY HOEY: We have to balance the risk of the person 29 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:22,780 WENDY HOEY: We have to balance to themselves and to others. 30 00:01:22,780 --> 00:01:24,580 to themselves and to others. 31 00:01:24,580 --> 00:01:27,780 The last thing anybody wants is re-offending. 32 00:01:27,780 --> 00:01:29,220 ANTHONY WHEALY: The most violent offender 33 00:01:29,220 --> 00:01:32,780 is entitled to be regarded as a human being. 34 00:01:32,780 --> 00:01:33,020 is entitled In this episode of Four Corners 35 00:01:33,020 --> 00:01:35,260 In this episode of Four Corners 36 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:39,020 forensic patients tell their stories for the first time. 37 00:01:39,020 --> 00:01:42,660 We'll expose how the system designed to rehabilitate people 38 00:01:42,660 --> 00:01:47,660 has made patients sicker and, in some cases, more dangerous. 39 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:47,900 has made patients sicker It's taken my soul, my spirit. 40 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:50,500 It's taken my soul, my spirit. 41 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:52,180 You're like a piece of steak on a barbecue. 42 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:08,500 It's December 2022. 43 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:12,420 A man known as Adrian steps out of a locked unit 44 00:02:12,420 --> 00:02:12,660 A man known as Adrian into a caged courtyard. 45 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:15,020 into a caged courtyard. 46 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:20,980 This is the first time the public has seen how Adrian lives. 47 00:02:20,980 --> 00:02:23,020 ISAAC WALMSLEY: As someone who cares for people, 48 00:02:23,020 --> 00:02:23,260 ISAAC WALMSLEY: it is a confronting thing. 49 00:02:23,260 --> 00:02:25,580 it is a confronting thing. 50 00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:25,820 You know, if you asked it is a confronting thing. 51 00:02:25,820 --> 00:02:27,780 You know, if you asked a five-year-old what that is, 52 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:28,020 You know, if you asked they would say that is a cage. 53 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:29,380 they would say that is a cage. 54 00:02:30,380 --> 00:02:32,340 IAN MCKEOWN: He's had a terrible life. 55 00:02:32,340 --> 00:02:35,540 Quality of life has been non-existent. 56 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:35,780 Quality of life He's a number in a building. 57 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:37,500 He's a number in a building. 58 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:39,980 And it's a building that's out of sight. 59 00:02:45,060 --> 00:02:46,540 In his mid-30s, 60 00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:49,420 Adrian lives with an intellectual disability 61 00:02:49,420 --> 00:02:49,660 Adrian lives and a chromosomal disorder. 62 00:02:49,660 --> 00:02:51,580 and a chromosomal disorder. 63 00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:53,740 For the past 11 years 64 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:53,980 he's rarely left For the past 11 years 65 00:02:53,980 --> 00:02:56,540 he's rarely left the Forensic Disability Service 66 00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:56,780 he's rarely left in Brisbane's west. 67 00:02:56,780 --> 00:02:58,300 in Brisbane's west. 68 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:02,460 Adrian has never been convicted of a crime. 69 00:03:02,460 --> 00:03:04,100 MARY BURGESS: The overwhelming majority of people 70 00:03:04,100 --> 00:03:04,340 MARY BURGESS: who are put on forensic orders 71 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:06,100 who are put on forensic orders 72 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:07,460 are put on those orders 73 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:11,180 when the evidence has not been tested in a court of law 74 00:03:11,180 --> 00:03:14,340 and they haven't been formally found guilty of the offences. 75 00:03:15,740 --> 00:03:20,020 In 2012 Adrian was charged with serious criminal offences 76 00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:20,260 In 2012 Adrian was charged and, rather than facing trial, 77 00:03:20,260 --> 00:03:21,940 and, rather than facing trial, 78 00:03:21,940 --> 00:03:22,180 he was placed on a forensic order and, rather than facing trial, 79 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:26,860 he was placed on a forensic order by a specialist mental-health court. 80 00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:30,340 Now considered to not be fit to be tried 81 00:03:30,340 --> 00:03:30,620 and to lack capacity to take criminal responsibility. Now considered to not be fit to be tried 82 00:03:30,620 --> 00:03:35,380 and to lack capacity to take criminal responsibility. 83 00:03:35,380 --> 00:03:35,620 and to lack capacity to take criminal responsibility. In Queensland 84 00:03:35,620 --> 00:03:37,100 In Queensland 85 00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:37,340 you can't identify forensic patients In Queensland 86 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:41,900 you can't identify forensic patients or report on their alleged crimes. 87 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:42,140 you can't identify forensic patients What we CAN say 88 00:03:42,140 --> 00:03:43,380 What we CAN say 89 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:47,780 is that Adrian was left unsupervised during a community excursion 90 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:50,020 when a serious incident happened. 91 00:03:50,020 --> 00:03:53,380 He ended up in the Forensic Disability Service. 92 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:57,180 IAN MCKEOWN: Well, he's contained, he's secluded, can't get out, 93 00:03:57,180 --> 00:03:58,940 can't hurt anybody. 94 00:03:58,940 --> 00:03:59,140 He's not a bad person. can't hurt anybody. 95 00:03:59,140 --> 00:04:00,660 He's not a bad person. 96 00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:04,780 He doesn't go out of his way to do the things he's done. 97 00:04:06,380 --> 00:04:09,100 There are an estimated 700 people 98 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:12,220 detained on forensic orders around Australia 99 00:04:12,220 --> 00:04:15,260 and roughly a thousand in the community. 100 00:04:16,220 --> 00:04:17,700 In Queensland 101 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:19,700 those with an intellectual disability 102 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:21,540 can be detained here, 103 00:04:21,540 --> 00:04:23,220 where Adrian is held. 104 00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:25,020 MATILDA ALEXANDER: The Forensic Disability Service 105 00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:25,260 MATILDA ALEXANDER: was initially spruiked 106 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:26,420 was initially spruiked 107 00:04:26,420 --> 00:04:26,660 as a short-term-accommodation option for people on these forensic orders, was initially spruiked 108 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:30,980 as a short-term-accommodation option for people on these forensic orders, 109 00:04:30,980 --> 00:04:34,940 so, unfortunately, our experience is it hasn't lived up to that goal. 110 00:04:34,940 --> 00:04:38,260 And, for people like Adrian, it's become a nightmare. 111 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:42,820 Last Christmas, when this footage was taken, 112 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:45,140 Adrian had little to celebrate. 113 00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:48,420 His case shows the difficult balance 114 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:51,700 between community safety and human rights 115 00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:54,460 and what happens when we get it wrong. 116 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,340 Well, I hadn't seen anything like this before. 117 00:05:02,340 --> 00:05:03,900 Mary Burgess's previous job 118 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:04,140 was to protect the rights Mary Burgess's previous job 119 00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:07,100 was to protect the rights of people with disabilities. 120 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:10,100 She's the former Public Advocate in Queensland, 121 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:13,140 an independent government-appointed role. 122 00:05:13,140 --> 00:05:16,380 Basically, we are warehousing these people, 123 00:05:16,380 --> 00:05:19,540 and that's a breach of their human rights. 124 00:05:19,540 --> 00:05:24,100 We're doing nothing to improve the threat that they pose. 125 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:26,540 And, so, they're left in a limbo. 126 00:05:26,540 --> 00:05:28,620 They're very closed institutions 127 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:28,860 and community They're very closed institutions 128 00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:31,420 and community has no idea what goes on. 129 00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:34,620 I don't think that the authorities would be comfortable 130 00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:39,300 with the community having a real look at what's happening there. 131 00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:47,700 The Forensic Disability Service 132 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:47,940 wouldn't let us in to interview Adrian, The Forensic Disability Service 133 00:05:47,940 --> 00:05:49,940 wouldn't let us in to interview Adrian, 134 00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:53,060 so, for now, the only way for him to tell his story 135 00:05:53,060 --> 00:05:55,340 is through this audio recording. 136 00:05:55,340 --> 00:05:58,020 ADRIAN: (ON RECORDING) Testing. One, two, three. Testing. 137 00:06:41,540 --> 00:06:44,620 We want to find out more about Adrian's past 138 00:06:44,620 --> 00:06:44,900 to understand why he's been mostly confined to his locked unit We want to find out more about Adrian's past 139 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:48,500 to understand why he's been mostly confined to his locked unit 140 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:48,740 for more than a decade. confined to his locked unit 141 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:50,020 for more than a decade. 142 00:06:51,340 --> 00:06:53,340 We're going to meet a former carer 143 00:06:53,340 --> 00:06:53,580 who spent a lot of time with him We're going to meet a former carer 144 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:56,620 who spent a lot of time with him when he was a young man. 145 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:01,140 (DOG BARKS) 146 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:04,700 Ian McKeown has worked as a government-employed support worker 147 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:07,740 and advocate for people with intellectual disabilities. 148 00:07:07,740 --> 00:07:10,500 Good to see you, Ian. Hello, Alex. How are you? 149 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:10,740 Good to see you, Ian. He's blowing the whistle 150 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:11,980 He's blowing the whistle 151 00:07:11,980 --> 00:07:12,220 because of Adrian's treatment He's blowing the whistle 152 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:16,100 because of Adrian's treatment at the Forensic Disability Service. 153 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:16,340 because of Adrian's treatment Adrian's predicament at the moment 154 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:18,580 Adrian's predicament at the moment 155 00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:20,980 is far worse than what a prisoner experiences. 156 00:07:20,980 --> 00:07:21,220 is far worse I'm compassionate about Adrian. 157 00:07:21,220 --> 00:07:23,460 I'm compassionate about Adrian. 158 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:28,380 I feel that, in my roles in working with him, nothing's changed. 159 00:07:28,380 --> 00:07:32,300 We've tried desperately to get movement for him. 160 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:35,620 He is still where he was exactly on day one. 161 00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:44,860 As a child, Adrian was physically and sexually abused. 162 00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:49,100 His childhood was extremely traumatic. 163 00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:49,340 His childhood On a scale from 1 to 10, 164 00:07:49,340 --> 00:07:50,820 On a scale from 1 to 10, 165 00:07:50,820 --> 00:07:51,060 I know that On a scale from 1 to 10, 166 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:54,900 I know that a few of those incidences were 10s. 167 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:55,180 There was a number of things that have happened to him as a child I know that a few of those incidences were 10s. 168 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:57,620 There was a number of things that have happened to him as a child 169 00:07:57,620 --> 00:07:57,860 There was a number of things that have moulded who he is. 170 00:07:57,860 --> 00:08:01,140 that have moulded who he is. 171 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:02,500 He doesn't see 172 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:02,740 He doesn't see that those things that happened to him are wrong. 173 00:08:02,740 --> 00:08:05,100 that those things that happened to him are wrong. 174 00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:10,300 His disability was diagnosed in early childhood. 175 00:08:11,940 --> 00:08:16,500 He has limited ability to read, write or understand. 176 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:16,740 He has limited ability He gets frustrated, 177 00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:17,980 He gets frustrated, 178 00:08:17,980 --> 00:08:20,180 and, of course, frustration leads to behaviours 179 00:08:20,180 --> 00:08:21,740 where he can't get his point across 180 00:08:21,740 --> 00:08:24,860 and he will have a serious outburst. 181 00:08:25,820 --> 00:08:28,140 Is it something that he can control? 182 00:08:28,140 --> 00:08:28,380 Once he starts to behave, Is it something that he can control? 183 00:08:28,380 --> 00:08:30,700 Once he starts to behave, you know it goes to full width. 184 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:30,940 Once he starts to behave, He doesn't let up. 185 00:08:30,940 --> 00:08:32,420 He doesn't let up. 186 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:36,060 Can he be dangerous? He can be dangerous. 187 00:08:36,060 --> 00:08:37,900 Yes, he can be. I'm not going to gloss over it. 188 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:38,140 Yes, he can be. This man has some issues. 189 00:08:38,140 --> 00:08:39,700 This man has some issues. 190 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:45,060 But if you know how to speak to him properly and look at triggers, 191 00:08:45,060 --> 00:08:49,860 you're able to navigate your way around this particular gentleman 192 00:08:49,860 --> 00:08:51,140 and come out the other side. 193 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:56,380 As a teenager, Adrian burnt his house down 194 00:08:56,380 --> 00:08:56,620 As a teenager, and was placed in an institution. 195 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:58,900 and was placed in an institution. 196 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:02,300 Ian was one of his carers. 197 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:06,580 He and his team had a different approach to working with Adrian. 198 00:09:08,740 --> 00:09:10,420 When we first started working with Adrian, 199 00:09:10,420 --> 00:09:10,660 When we first we did a number of activities. 200 00:09:10,660 --> 00:09:12,180 we did a number of activities. 201 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:14,980 We purchased a custom bicycle for him 202 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:18,820 and we were able to ride on the bike tracks floating into Brisbane Way. 203 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:22,820 That was without incident and we did it on a regular basis. 204 00:09:22,820 --> 00:09:26,580 We took him fishing and spent a day fishing. 205 00:09:26,580 --> 00:09:29,900 In the community he was able to go into the shop and buy fishing gear. 206 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:31,540 The normality was there. 207 00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:33,940 He loved walking Mount Flinders. 208 00:09:33,940 --> 00:09:35,380 We would take him out to Mount Flinders 209 00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:35,620 We would take him out and he would walk to the very top. 210 00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:37,860 and he would walk to the very top. 211 00:09:37,860 --> 00:09:38,100 The staff couldn't get there, and he would walk to the very top. 212 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:41,500 The staff couldn't get there, but he did. (LAUGHS) 213 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:41,740 The staff couldn't get there, He was proud of that, 214 00:09:41,740 --> 00:09:42,980 He was proud of that, 215 00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:46,340 that he had done something and achieved something. 216 00:09:46,340 --> 00:09:49,660 He felt an accomplishment. It was good for him, yeah. 217 00:09:51,060 --> 00:09:55,340 He says Adrian was calmer after these excursions. 218 00:09:56,140 --> 00:09:58,340 Adrian CAN live a different life, 219 00:09:58,340 --> 00:09:58,580 but it has to be with people Adrian CAN live a different life, 220 00:09:58,580 --> 00:10:01,540 but it has to be with people that would support him. 221 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:04,060 If those people are all on the same page, 222 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:06,780 yes, they can achieve outcomes. 223 00:10:08,060 --> 00:10:12,700 They started working together again when Adrian was in his late 20s, 224 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:12,940 They started working together again this time at the FDS. 225 00:10:12,940 --> 00:10:15,180 this time at the FDS. 226 00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:18,780 He could see Adrian was deteriorating. 227 00:10:18,780 --> 00:10:19,020 He could see So, what do you have here, Ian? 228 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:20,940 So, what do you have here, Ian? 229 00:10:20,940 --> 00:10:22,420 Well, I've got a number of letters 230 00:10:22,420 --> 00:10:26,580 in regards to how he's viewing his containment and seclusion. 231 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:28,300 There's a lot of them. There's a lot of them, 232 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:31,780 and they're quite graphic in the language that he's used. 233 00:10:31,780 --> 00:10:35,020 Adrian's letters show the depths of his desperation. 234 00:10:35,020 --> 00:10:38,580 How did it make you feel when you received these and read them? 235 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:43,860 It makes me feel quite upset and frustrates you further. 236 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:46,860 He's displaying here the final straw. 237 00:10:46,860 --> 00:10:47,100 He's displaying here He's got no other options. 238 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:49,020 He's got no other options. 239 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:51,260 He draws. That's the only thing he can do. 240 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:51,500 He draws. He's now at a point where, 241 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:52,660 He's now at a point where, 242 00:10:52,660 --> 00:10:52,900 "I've got nothing more to say He's now at a point where, 243 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:54,620 "I've got nothing more to say except for this word. 244 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:54,860 "I've got nothing more to say "Help me. Get me out of here." 245 00:10:54,860 --> 00:10:56,420 "Help me. Get me out of here." 246 00:10:57,380 --> 00:11:00,100 MARY BURGESS: I was aware that there was a person 247 00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:01,900 in the Forensic Disability Service 248 00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:05,220 who had been there for some time. 249 00:11:05,220 --> 00:11:10,020 He seemed childlike and have simple views 250 00:11:10,020 --> 00:11:10,260 He seemed childlike but to be 251 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:11,500 but to be 252 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:11,740 incredibly frustrated by his circumstances and... but to be 253 00:11:11,740 --> 00:11:15,500 incredibly frustrated by his circumstances and... 254 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:15,740 incredibly frustrated by his circumstances and... ..to have a sense of hopelessness 255 00:11:15,740 --> 00:11:19,300 ..to have a sense of hopelessness 256 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:21,700 about his situation. 257 00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:27,820 The former Public Advocate in Queensland, Mary Burgess, 258 00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:28,060 The former Public Advocate has big concerns 259 00:11:28,060 --> 00:11:29,300 has big concerns 260 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:33,020 about what's happening inside the Forensic Disability Service. 261 00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:33,260 about what's happening inside It was a shock to me 262 00:11:33,260 --> 00:11:34,700 It was a shock to me 263 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:34,940 to think that we were treating It was a shock to me 264 00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:40,660 to think that we were treating people with this level of disability 265 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:40,900 to think that we were treating in this way. 266 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:41,860 in this way. 267 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:44,900 I began raising concerns 268 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:50,060 about what I considered was a breach of his rights. 269 00:11:50,060 --> 00:11:51,340 Solitary confinement 270 00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:54,540 is meant to only be for emergency... 271 00:11:54,540 --> 00:11:57,420 ..sort of imminent-threat kinds of situations. 272 00:11:57,420 --> 00:12:01,100 It's become the default regime for this person, 273 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:04,900 which was never the intention and should never be the intention. 274 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:09,460 When her complaints to the Queensland Government weren't acted on, 275 00:12:09,460 --> 00:12:11,100 she went to the state's ombudsman, 276 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:11,340 which delivered a damning report she went to the state's ombudsman, 277 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:14,820 which delivered a damning report in 2019. 278 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:17,500 The Ombudsman found, in relation to Adrian, 279 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:19,460 that the approach to secluding Adrian 280 00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:19,700 that the approach had been "contrary to law, 281 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:21,340 had been "contrary to law, 282 00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:21,580 "unreasonable, oppressive had been "contrary to law, 283 00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:25,380 "unreasonable, oppressive and improperly discriminatory." 284 00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:25,620 "unreasonable, oppressive And what does that mean? 285 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:27,300 And what does that mean? 286 00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:29,100 He was treated unlawfully. 287 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,500 Yet he's still there under the same regime. 288 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:33,260 Yes. 289 00:12:33,260 --> 00:12:35,340 Nothing's changed for this man. 290 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:38,060 Adrian's treatment is still unlawful. 291 00:12:38,060 --> 00:12:42,500 The ombudsman has described it as 'systemic abuse'. 292 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:43,820 This man 293 00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:49,620 and many of the people held on forensic orders who have disability, 294 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:49,860 and many of the people held on they're facing this same future, 295 00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:52,980 they're facing this same future, 296 00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:53,220 which is a future they're facing this same future, 297 00:12:53,220 --> 00:12:57,500 which is a future holding nothing for them, 298 00:12:57,500 --> 00:12:59,060 a hopeless future, 299 00:12:59,060 --> 00:13:01,020 and that's cruel. 300 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:04,460 It, I think, amounts to a form of torture. 301 00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:08,740 So, you think Adrian is essentially being tortured by the state? 302 00:13:08,740 --> 00:13:12,580 I wouldn't be suggesting anyone commenced with that intention, 303 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:17,260 but the treatment that he's receiving amounts to that. 304 00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:20,740 And where are the cameras... 305 00:13:20,740 --> 00:13:24,220 Four years after the Queensland Ombudsman's report, 306 00:13:24,220 --> 00:13:28,060 another carer says he can't stay silent any longer. 307 00:13:28,060 --> 00:13:28,300 another carer In my time working at the FDS, 308 00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:31,100 In my time working at the FDS, 309 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:34,020 I spent more time with Adrian 310 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:36,660 than I spent with any member of my family. 311 00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:36,900 than I spent You have to come to terms yourself. 312 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,820 You have to come to terms yourself. 313 00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:39,060 Forensic officer Isaac Walmsley You have to come to terms yourself. 314 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:42,700 Forensic officer Isaac Walmsley is also blowing the whistle 315 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:47,260 about what he's seen at the Forensic Disability Service. 316 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:47,500 about what he's seen Adrian has communicated to us 317 00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:48,940 Adrian has communicated to us 318 00:13:48,940 --> 00:13:52,020 he is worried he's going to die there. 319 00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:54,060 Is that something that he's said to you? 320 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:57,940 It's something that is present every day that you work with Adrian. 321 00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:03,660 It is certainly the fear of everyone who supports him. 322 00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:07,340 So, how do you communicate with Adrian? 323 00:14:07,340 --> 00:14:10,620 So, we communicate through a servery window. 324 00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:10,860 So, we communicate There's a wall that separates us 325 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:13,660 There's a wall that separates us 326 00:14:13,660 --> 00:14:17,860 and sort of looks a bit like that. 327 00:14:17,860 --> 00:14:21,300 And I would sit at the end of a table 328 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,780 that comes out from the servery, 329 00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:27,700 and Adrian sits on the other side in his chair, 330 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:27,940 and Adrian sits on the other side and it's sort of about eye level, 331 00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:29,180 and it's sort of about eye level, 332 00:14:29,180 --> 00:14:33,980 but that is the only window through which we communicate. 333 00:14:33,980 --> 00:14:37,020 And what is it like having such limited human contact 334 00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:37,260 And what is it like with someone that you're caring for? 335 00:14:37,260 --> 00:14:39,500 with someone that you're caring for? 336 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:42,180 It's certainly, like, a very alien experience. 337 00:14:42,180 --> 00:14:42,420 It's certainly, like, It doesn't feel natural. 338 00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:44,980 It doesn't feel natural. 339 00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:45,220 Imagine every birthday party It doesn't feel natural. 340 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:48,900 Imagine every birthday party that you've ever had... 341 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:49,140 Imagine every birthday party ..every Christmas morning 342 00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:50,780 ..every Christmas morning 343 00:14:50,780 --> 00:14:53,660 you have experienced through... 344 00:14:54,620 --> 00:14:57,580 ..a hole in the wall the size of a pizza box. 345 00:14:57,580 --> 00:14:57,820 ..a hole in the wall Mm. 346 00:14:57,820 --> 00:14:58,740 Mm. 347 00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:01,220 There's no argument to be made 348 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:06,300 for this to be somebody's world for... 349 00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:09,140 ..you know, as long as they live. 350 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:16,500 Queensland's ombudsman reported that Adrian was charged five times 351 00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:16,740 Queensland's ombudsman reported with assaulting staff at the FDS. 352 00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:18,980 with assaulting staff at the FDS. 353 00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:22,460 All the charges were dropped due to his intellectual disability. 354 00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:28,540 Disturbingly, it also found Adrian now prefers to be in seclusion. 355 00:15:28,540 --> 00:15:31,540 It's something Isaac's witnessed too. 356 00:15:31,540 --> 00:15:34,020 He wants the door locked because he doesn't want to hurt you, 357 00:15:34,020 --> 00:15:38,580 and the fact that he's conditioned, has been institutionalised 358 00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:41,340 for that to be his belief, 359 00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:41,580 that is a really, really, really confronting and damaging thing for that to be his belief, 360 00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:46,140 that is a really, really, really confronting and damaging thing 361 00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:46,380 that is a really, really, really to believe. 362 00:15:46,380 --> 00:15:48,620 to believe. 363 00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:55,460 Isaac Walmsley is afraid he'll be punished for speaking out 364 00:15:55,460 --> 00:15:58,060 and has engaged the Human Rights Law Centre. 365 00:15:58,060 --> 00:16:01,380 The Queensland Minister for Disability Services 366 00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:01,620 The Queensland Minister and the administrator of the FDS 367 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:03,620 and the administrator of the FDS 368 00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:05,540 both declined to be interviewed. 369 00:16:05,540 --> 00:16:07,300 In a statement 370 00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:09,580 the service said its highest priorities 371 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:14,180 were the safety and welfare of the community, its clients and staff. 372 00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:17,500 Ultimately, the state's Mental Health Review Tribunal 373 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:21,380 will decide when Adrian is ready to leave the FDS. 374 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:25,820 (THUNDER RUMBLES, RAIN PATTERS) 375 00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:28,180 (THUNDER CRASHES) 376 00:16:29,260 --> 00:16:34,660 Forensic patients are also being detained in jails across Australia. 377 00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:39,860 This can make people sicker and more dangerous 378 00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:43,780 because they're not always getting the proper care they need. 379 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,740 Gadigal man Michael Heatley and his sister Christine 380 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:54,740 were exposed to the criminal underworld from a young age. 381 00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,860 We grew up in a family 382 00:16:58,860 --> 00:16:59,060 that had strong connections and ties We grew up in a family 383 00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:01,580 that had strong connections and ties 384 00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:03,180 to organised crime 385 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:03,380 to organised crime here in Australia. 386 00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:04,700 here in Australia. 387 00:17:05,660 --> 00:17:07,140 Their father and uncles 388 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:11,660 were some of the most notorious armed robbers on the east coast. 389 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:15,700 (APPLAUSE) 390 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:15,940 HOST: And finally, (APPLAUSE) 391 00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:18,180 HOST: And finally, from Port Sorell in Tasmania, 392 00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:20,420 we have Christine Heatley and her uncle Earl. 393 00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:22,380 Where would you find haemoglobins? 394 00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:23,380 (BUZZER) 395 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:23,620 Earl? (BUZZER) 396 00:17:23,620 --> 00:17:24,380 Earl? In the blood. 397 00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:26,220 In the blood is correct. Five points. 398 00:17:26,220 --> 00:17:26,460 In the blood is correct. (APPLAUSE) 399 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:28,060 (APPLAUSE) 400 00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:29,540 It's fair to say 401 00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:29,780 that we're very, very familiar It's fair to say 402 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:33,020 that we're very, very familiar with most of the visiting rooms 403 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:33,260 that we're very, very familiar in New South Wales prisons. 404 00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:36,620 in New South Wales prisons. 405 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:42,100 MICHAEL HEATLEY: My father was in custody, 406 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:43,780 and I was abandoned by my mother when I was five years old, 407 00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:45,620 so, I was raised by my grandparents in Tasmania 408 00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:47,420 with my two sisters and my younger brother. 409 00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:51,180 That's just how it was. Yeah, I accepted it and just grew up. 410 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:56,460 I've committed armed robberies, and I've found myself in jail. 411 00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:58,420 I didn't have any money, I needed money. 412 00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:00,140 The quickest way to get money was to run in and rob a bank. 413 00:18:00,140 --> 00:18:00,380 The quickest way to get money So, that's what I chose to do. 414 00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:01,580 So, that's what I chose to do. 415 00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:04,700 I robbed the place at gunpoint, and I left. 416 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:08,500 ANTHONY WHEALY: He terrified and threatened 417 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:11,420 customers and employees of the Commonwealth Bank, 418 00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:11,660 customers and employees and stole $18,700. 419 00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:14,420 and stole $18,700. 420 00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:18,100 To be threatened with a weapon and told that they were going to be shot 421 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:18,340 if they didn't obey his commands To be threatened with a weapon and told that they were going to be shot 422 00:18:18,340 --> 00:18:19,860 if they didn't obey his commands 423 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:22,140 would have been a most terrifying experience. 424 00:18:23,620 --> 00:18:25,300 By the age of 23 425 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:25,540 Michael Heatley By the age of 23 426 00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:28,020 Michael Heatley had committed two armed robberies 427 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:28,260 Michael Heatley and been acquitted of murder. 428 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:30,140 and been acquitted of murder. 429 00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:32,300 To try and reduce his jail time, 430 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:32,540 he says he initially To try and reduce his jail time, 431 00:18:32,540 --> 00:18:36,180 he says he initially faked symptoms of schizophrenia. 432 00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:36,420 he says he initially In 1999 433 00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:37,780 In 1999 434 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:42,580 he was diagnosed by a psychiatrist in Sydney's Long Bay prison hospital. 435 00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:46,780 He's been caught in the forensic labyrinth for more than two decades, 436 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:49,580 spending most of that time in jail. 437 00:18:51,740 --> 00:18:54,020 Michael's journey 438 00:18:54,020 --> 00:19:01,100 in the forensic system and his indefinite detention, 439 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:03,340 the medication regime, 440 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:06,460 it has been catastrophic 441 00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:08,660 for Michael's life course. 442 00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:11,220 He has gone through... 443 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:15,100 ..just the most horrendous conditions. 444 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:15,340 ..just the most horrendous My brother, like a lot of others, 445 00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:18,300 My brother, like a lot of others, 446 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:22,060 is just in that machine. 447 00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:24,540 Stuck. Stuck. 448 00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:26,220 Yeah. 449 00:19:30,740 --> 00:19:32,580 It's almost impossible 450 00:19:32,580 --> 00:19:35,580 for a journalist to interview someone like Michael Heatley. 451 00:19:35,580 --> 00:19:38,860 It's taken months to gain this unprecedented access 452 00:19:38,860 --> 00:19:39,100 It's taken months to the Sydney Forensic Hospital, 453 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,340 to the Sydney Forensic Hospital, 454 00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:43,620 where he's now detained. 455 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:45,620 We're going to go in and speak to Michael Heatley. 456 00:19:45,620 --> 00:19:48,140 It's the first time that any patient here 457 00:19:48,140 --> 00:19:51,460 has ever done a media interview and told their story. 458 00:20:00,460 --> 00:20:01,940 Hello, Michael. 459 00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:03,420 Hello, Alex. How are you? Good. 460 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:05,420 Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Lovely to meet you. 461 00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:07,020 Thank you for meeting me... 462 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:08,660 OK. ..and sharing your story. 463 00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:08,900 OK. OK. 464 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:10,180 OK. 465 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:16,820 How has your experience in prison as a forensic patient 466 00:20:16,820 --> 00:20:20,700 affected how you see the forensic system? 467 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:20,940 I see the forensic system as a beast affected how you see the forensic system? 468 00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:22,740 I see the forensic system as a beast 469 00:20:22,740 --> 00:20:25,140 that chews you up and spits you out. 470 00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:27,380 That's how I see the forensic system. 471 00:20:27,380 --> 00:20:30,420 That's how I describe it. That's been my experience. 472 00:20:32,420 --> 00:20:35,340 Before he was admitted here in 2019 473 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:35,580 Michael Heatley Before he was admitted here in 2019 474 00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:38,540 Michael Heatley says one of his worst experiences 475 00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:42,140 was the three months he spent in what's known as a 'dry cell' 476 00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:42,380 was the three months he spent in neighbouring Long Bay jail. 477 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:44,620 in neighbouring Long Bay jail. 478 00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:48,100 The dry cell was a 10-square-metre cell. It had two cameras. 479 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:50,900 There was no water, there was no toilet. It had a mattress. 480 00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:54,020 And, to urinate, I had to urinate in bottles. 481 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:56,900 There were days... And it was during summer, there were days 482 00:20:56,900 --> 00:20:59,260 that there was up to half a dozen urine bottles in the cell, 483 00:20:59,260 --> 00:20:59,500 that there was up to half a dozen and I'd continually get headaches. 484 00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:00,940 and I'd continually get headaches. 485 00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:02,660 They'd refuse to give me Panadol. 486 00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:04,300 And, like, I was in there 487 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:04,540 virtually, like, And, like, I was in there 488 00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:07,020 virtually, like, at least 23 hours a day every day. 489 00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:10,460 You also received forced injections in prison. 490 00:21:10,460 --> 00:21:14,540 Can you describe how they do that and the impact it has on you? 491 00:21:14,540 --> 00:21:16,940 And what they do is they come down and they approach... 492 00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:18,300 ..they approach your cell and they'll say to you, 493 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:21,100 "We're here to assist with forced medication. Are you gonna comply?" 494 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:23,260 If you say no, they get their shields, 495 00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:25,380 they put on their helmets, they put it on their padding, 496 00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:26,660 they open the door, they run in on you, 497 00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:28,660 they use whatever force is appropriate to hold you down. 498 00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:30,380 And then the nurse sticks it in your backside 499 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:30,620 And then the nurse and, yeah, you're medicated. 500 00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:32,260 and, yeah, you're medicated. 501 00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:32,500 And why did you and, yeah, you're medicated. 502 00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:35,060 And why did you not want the medication? 503 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:37,580 Because the medication is awful. It's horrible. It's like a torture. 504 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:40,180 You're in a constant state of agitation and restlessness. 505 00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:46,060 Michael, basically, had to be carried and... 506 00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:46,300 Michael, basically, ..he wasn't in good shape at all. 507 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,140 ..he wasn't in good shape at all. 508 00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:51,060 Michael's sister Christine remembers visiting her brother 509 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:54,460 after he received one of these injections. 510 00:21:54,460 --> 00:21:57,700 He had saliva coming out of his mouth, his eyes were rolling, 511 00:21:57,700 --> 00:21:57,940 He had saliva coming out and it was a very short visit 512 00:21:57,940 --> 00:22:00,180 and it was a very short visit 513 00:22:00,180 --> 00:22:03,380 because Michael could not stay in that room. 514 00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:06,620 It was a form of chemical restraint. 515 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:10,060 And that, to me, is... 516 00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:12,180 ..it's shocking. 517 00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:15,740 For Michael, there was worse to come. 518 00:22:15,740 --> 00:22:17,940 As a forensic patient, 519 00:22:17,940 --> 00:22:21,860 he spent two years in one of Australia's toughest prisons, 520 00:22:21,860 --> 00:22:23,620 Goulburn Supermax. 521 00:22:23,620 --> 00:22:25,620 It was like being on another planet. 522 00:22:25,620 --> 00:22:28,100 The only people you really see are the screws. 523 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:30,740 They come to your door three times a day to feed you. 524 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:33,220 There's a lot of lockdowns. You spend 24 hours in your cell. 525 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,460 And is that environment, the Supermax environment, 526 00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:37,700 And is that environment, the segregation prison environment - 527 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:39,660 the segregation prison environment - 528 00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:43,060 is that conducive to getting better? 529 00:22:43,060 --> 00:22:45,260 No, it was horrible. It was awful. 530 00:22:45,260 --> 00:22:47,820 It wasn't good at all. It was good in no way at all. 531 00:22:49,260 --> 00:22:53,860 These years in jail came after a major incident in 2004. 532 00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:54,100 These years in jail At that time 533 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:55,380 At that time 534 00:22:55,380 --> 00:22:58,940 he was being treated with a particular antipsychotic medication 535 00:22:58,940 --> 00:22:59,180 he was being treated with in the Long Bay prison hospital. 536 00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:01,580 in the Long Bay prison hospital. 537 00:23:02,780 --> 00:23:06,060 It started giving me suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation. 538 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:08,580 I told the treating psychiatrist what it was doing to me. 539 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:09,940 He laughed in my face 540 00:23:09,940 --> 00:23:10,180 and said, "It can't do that. He laughed in my face 541 00:23:10,180 --> 00:23:11,900 and said, "It can't do that. It's an antipsychotic." 542 00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:15,100 Eventually, the medication was ceased 543 00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:19,140 and the suicidal ideation and the homicidal ideation got worse. 544 00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:22,980 As Michael Heatley waited for a mental-health bed 545 00:23:22,980 --> 00:23:23,220 As Michael Heatley waited in the Long Bay prison hospital, 546 00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:25,060 in the Long Bay prison hospital, 547 00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:26,340 guards were discussing 548 00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:29,580 whether he should share a cell with another inmate. 549 00:23:29,580 --> 00:23:34,140 The events that followed show how catastrophic the outcome can be 550 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:38,860 when a dangerously unwell forensic patient is mismanaged. 551 00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:39,140 I voiced my concerns to the psychologists - when a dangerously unwell forensic patient is mismanaged. 552 00:23:39,140 --> 00:23:41,180 I voiced my concerns to the psychologists - 553 00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:42,700 "This is what's going on with my mind 554 00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:45,220 "and this is why I'm speaking to you." 555 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:47,980 She prepared a report and gave it to Corrective Services, 556 00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:50,220 outlining the fact that she believed me to be a true risk 557 00:23:50,220 --> 00:23:51,620 to other patients and staff. 558 00:23:52,580 --> 00:23:55,420 The psychologist told prison officials 559 00:23:55,420 --> 00:23:58,380 to keep Michael Heatley alone in his cell. 560 00:23:58,380 --> 00:24:02,580 Michael says HE warned the guards that he might kill someone. 561 00:24:02,580 --> 00:24:04,540 I told them when they were putting him into my cell, 562 00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:06,460 "Listen, I'm homicidal, I shouldn't be with anybody." 563 00:24:06,460 --> 00:24:06,700 "Listen, I'm homicidal, They told me I was full of shit. 564 00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:07,900 They told me I was full of shit. 565 00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:14,500 ANTHONY WHEALY: On the day of the incident 566 00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:18,180 Corrective Services officers decided to take a young person 567 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:21,300 and put him in the cell with Heatley, 568 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:24,460 and within hours Heatley had kicked him to death. 569 00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:30,540 How catastrophic was that decision by the prison guards 570 00:24:30,540 --> 00:24:30,780 How catastrophic was that decision to put that man in your cell? 571 00:24:30,780 --> 00:24:32,260 to put that man in your cell? 572 00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:33,900 It cost him his life. 573 00:24:35,140 --> 00:24:38,220 And what impact did that have on you as well, that decision? 574 00:24:39,940 --> 00:24:41,540 It ruined my life. 575 00:24:42,980 --> 00:24:46,260 It's taken my soul, my spirit. 576 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,980 I lost my... I lost my fiance. I'm separated from my son. 577 00:24:52,140 --> 00:24:54,580 Like... I didn't get any favours from it. 578 00:24:56,340 --> 00:25:00,620 Michael Heatley said he was unable to control his homicidal urges 579 00:25:00,620 --> 00:25:05,820 after coming off medication in the lead-up to killing the inmate. 580 00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:09,460 What are your views of this from a clinical perspective? 581 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:09,740 One would think that, if he was on medication, What are your views of this from a clinical perspective? 582 00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:12,500 One would think that, if he was on medication, 583 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,860 he may have had better control of his urges. 584 00:25:15,860 --> 00:25:16,100 he may have had better control of his urges. Maybe if he'd had an opportunity 585 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:17,420 Maybe if he'd had an opportunity 586 00:25:17,420 --> 00:25:19,900 to be assessed in a hospital environment, 587 00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:23,620 the outcome may have been quite different, yeah. 588 00:25:24,580 --> 00:25:26,380 Due to his mental illness 589 00:25:26,380 --> 00:25:30,060 Michael Heatley was convicted of manslaughter rather than murder 590 00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:30,300 Michael Heatley was convicted and remained as a forensic patient. 591 00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:32,940 and remained as a forensic patient. 592 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:38,900 Anthony Whealy was the Supreme Court judge who sentenced Michael. 593 00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:42,980 ANTHONY WHEALY: This is the part of the sentencing decision that I gave 594 00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:43,220 ANTHONY WHEALY: This is the part of and it says, 595 00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:44,380 and it says, 596 00:25:44,380 --> 00:25:46,100 "Were, however, this offender 597 00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:47,900 "simply to disappear 598 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:52,580 "into the grim maw of the hospital psychiatric prison system 599 00:25:52,580 --> 00:25:52,820 "into the grim maw of the hospital "with little hope of rescue, 600 00:25:52,820 --> 00:25:54,500 "with little hope of rescue, 601 00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:54,740 "with little hope "with little hope of rescue, 602 00:25:54,740 --> 00:25:57,300 "with little hope of proper treatment and reform 603 00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,820 "simply because he is a difficult person, 604 00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:04,420 "this would be a very sad condemnation of our prison system." 605 00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:11,860 Dr Rosalie Wilcox was the psychiatrist 606 00:26:11,860 --> 00:26:16,580 who first diagnosed Michael in Long Bay in 1999. 607 00:26:16,580 --> 00:26:20,220 I felt that he definitely had some form of mental illness. 608 00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:24,780 He's experienced quite horrific behaviour, punitive behaviour, 609 00:26:24,780 --> 00:26:27,500 and, so, that's going to influence 610 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:30,180 his ability to be reintegrated into society. 611 00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:32,860 Do you think that prison is an appropriate environment 612 00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:33,100 Do you think that prison for a forensic patient? 613 00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,340 for a forensic patient? 614 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:38,220 No, it's definitely not an appropriate environment, 615 00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:41,740 and that's very much driven by resources. 616 00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:41,980 and that's very much We have a lack of beds, 617 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:44,020 We have a lack of beds, 618 00:26:44,020 --> 00:26:44,260 and, as a consequence, people are We have a lack of beds, 619 00:26:44,260 --> 00:26:48,100 and, as a consequence, people are in jail who shouldn't be in jail. 620 00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:48,340 and, as a consequence, people are New South Wales Corrective Services 621 00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:50,860 New South Wales Corrective Services 622 00:26:50,860 --> 00:26:53,540 told us it's increased the number of mental-health beds 623 00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:53,780 told us it's increased in the state's prisons. 624 00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:55,540 in the state's prisons. 625 00:26:57,700 --> 00:26:59,660 After the death of his cell mate, 626 00:26:59,660 --> 00:27:03,340 Michael Heatley spent the next 15 years in prison. 627 00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:08,860 In 2019 he was finally transferred to the Sydney Forensic Hospital, 628 00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:12,500 where he remains detained indefinitely. 629 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,380 You've committed violent crimes in the past. 630 00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:19,820 Do you have any insight now into why you did those things? 631 00:27:19,820 --> 00:27:21,060 Not really. 632 00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:23,460 If you are released, 633 00:27:23,460 --> 00:27:27,020 is there any reason why people should feel like you're a risk 634 00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:27,300 to the community? Not at all. Not at all. is there any reason why people should feel like you're a risk 635 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:28,660 to the community? Not at all. Not at all. 636 00:27:28,660 --> 00:27:28,900 to the community? No, not at all. Not at all. 637 00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:30,420 No, not at all. Not at all. 638 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:32,460 I'm a changed person. 639 00:27:32,460 --> 00:27:32,700 I'm a changed person. You had uncontrollable homicidal urges in the past. 640 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:36,780 You had uncontrollable homicidal urges in the past. 641 00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:39,140 Do you think that that could happen again? 642 00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:42,060 Not at all. Not at all. I believe it was the medication. 643 00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:45,820 How does it feel not knowing when you're going to get out? 644 00:27:45,820 --> 00:27:46,060 How does it feel not knowing (PUFFS) 645 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:47,180 (PUFFS) 646 00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:47,420 It's been... (PUFFS) 647 00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:49,940 It's been... It's been over 21 years now. 648 00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:50,180 It's been... Every day is virtually the same. 649 00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:51,620 Every day is virtually the same. 650 00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:56,300 You wake up, you eat some food, you do some exercise, you go to sleep. 651 00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:59,980 It's just another day of your life gone down the drain. 652 00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:07,980 Michael Heatley's sister Christine 653 00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:11,540 believes her brother has spent too long in custody. 654 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,980 She's been his fierce advocate for decades. 655 00:28:15,980 --> 00:28:18,300 And the psychiatrist just blew it off 656 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:20,820 and said that it was a staffing issue 657 00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:22,420 and they can't do anything about that. 658 00:28:23,380 --> 00:28:25,820 He's now served his full sentence 659 00:28:25,820 --> 00:28:28,300 for the manslaughter of his cell mate. 660 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:31,220 Thanks for your advice. Bye, Patrick. Bye. 661 00:28:31,220 --> 00:28:34,260 What's happening today is the Mental Health Review Tribunal. 662 00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:34,500 What's happening today is So, they've pushed it back an hour. 663 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:36,380 So, they've pushed it back an hour. 664 00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:38,140 In New South Wales 665 00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:39,860 the Mental Health Review Tribunal 666 00:28:39,860 --> 00:28:40,100 decides when forensic patients the Mental Health Review Tribunal 667 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:43,980 decides when forensic patients are ready to re-enter the community. 668 00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:47,500 Michael Heatley has to appear every six months. 669 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:47,740 Michael Heatley After more than 40 tribunal hearings, 670 00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:50,060 After more than 40 tribunal hearings, 671 00:28:50,060 --> 00:28:50,300 Christine is pushing for him After more than 40 tribunal hearings, 672 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:53,460 Christine is pushing for him to have short supervised trips 673 00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:53,700 Christine is pushing for him outside the forensic hospital. 674 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:55,300 outside the forensic hospital. 675 00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:57,380 Hopefully they're not going to be so arrogant 676 00:28:57,380 --> 00:29:00,340 that they're still just going to say blatantly 677 00:29:00,340 --> 00:29:01,940 therapeutic leave can't be on the table. 678 00:29:01,940 --> 00:29:02,180 therapeutic leave Therapeutic leave would not be... 679 00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:03,340 Therapeutic leave would not be... 680 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:05,060 We can't record the hearing, 681 00:29:05,060 --> 00:29:07,980 but it clearly hasn't gone well for the Heatleys. 682 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:10,460 What's wrong with these fucking cunts? 683 00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:18,340 These are university-graduated fucking people. 684 00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:21,700 His supervised leave wasn't approved. 685 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:23,460 It was absolutely alarming to me 686 00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:25,020 to hear that the treating team 687 00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:28,820 thought that my brother having therapeutic leave 688 00:29:28,820 --> 00:29:30,660 would not have any good effect on him, 689 00:29:30,660 --> 00:29:30,900 would not have so, I found that bizarre. 690 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:32,540 so, I found that bizarre. 691 00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:35,020 MICHAEL HEATLEY: (ON PHONE) Oh, it's outrageous. It makes no sense. 692 00:29:35,020 --> 00:29:36,340 No-one could give an indication 693 00:29:36,340 --> 00:29:36,580 as to how much more time No-one could give an indication 694 00:29:36,580 --> 00:29:38,020 as to how much more time I'll spend in this place. 695 00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:41,460 Yeah. It's like... And every six months between tribunals, 696 00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:44,140 it's just another six months, one year, two years 697 00:29:44,140 --> 00:29:48,300 that, like, are just being thrown away from your life. 698 00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:49,540 Exactly. That's right. 699 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:52,860 Do you have any trust in the doctors here in the system? 700 00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:55,380 Not at all. Not at all. Nothing. No trust at all. 701 00:29:55,380 --> 00:29:56,780 And why is that? 702 00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:57,020 Because of what's happened to me And why is that? 703 00:29:57,020 --> 00:29:58,260 Because of what's happened to me in the past 704 00:29:58,260 --> 00:29:59,900 and what's currently happening to me. 705 00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:03,300 For somebody to have no trust in the system 706 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:04,860 is definitely challenging, 707 00:30:04,860 --> 00:30:07,820 but it's something that we've got to deal with every day. 708 00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:11,060 Wendy Hoey is the chief executive of Justice Health. 709 00:30:11,060 --> 00:30:13,940 It provides the majority of health services, 710 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:15,540 including forensic mental health, 711 00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:18,020 in the New South Wales justice system. 712 00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:20,740 And we've been working really hard over the last two to three years 713 00:30:20,740 --> 00:30:24,660 to reduce the number of forensic patients that are in our prisons 714 00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:26,100 quite successfully. 715 00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:28,740 I don't think forensic patients should be in the prison system. 716 00:30:28,740 --> 00:30:30,500 I think they should be in a health environment. 717 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:33,020 And we're doing our very best to change that. 718 00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:35,020 I think it's also really important to remember 719 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:36,820 that the majority of forensic patients 720 00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:38,300 are actually living in the community. 721 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:41,500 They're not in any of those forensic, high-secure hospitals 722 00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:43,260 or medium-secure hospitals, low-secure, 723 00:30:43,260 --> 00:30:45,780 but they're leading safe and productive lives 724 00:30:45,780 --> 00:30:47,100 within the community. 725 00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,140 Does that indefinite nature of detention... 726 00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:53,020 ..is it sometimes counterproductive to what you're trying to do here? 727 00:30:53,020 --> 00:30:53,260 ..is it sometimes counterproductive It can be. 728 00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:54,300 It can be. 729 00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:54,540 So, if you put the reason that people are there in the first place, It can be. 730 00:30:54,540 --> 00:30:57,620 So, if you put the reason that people are there in the first place, 731 00:30:57,620 --> 00:31:01,860 which is, generally, long and enduring mental-health issues 732 00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:02,140 which is, generally, long and enduring mental-health issues such as schizophrenia, where you do have a lack of insight, 733 00:31:02,140 --> 00:31:05,540 such as schizophrenia, where you do have a lack of insight, 734 00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:08,620 they've often faced a lot of trauma in their background, 735 00:31:08,620 --> 00:31:08,860 they've often faced a lot of trauma whether it be in the community 736 00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:10,780 whether it be in the community 737 00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:13,060 or whether it be coming through prison, 738 00:31:13,060 --> 00:31:18,540 so, the outcome for us to manage is quite a complex issue. 739 00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:18,780 so, the outcome for us to manage And I think it is difficult, 740 00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:22,820 And I think it is difficult, 741 00:31:22,820 --> 00:31:24,780 but you can't put a time frame on it. 742 00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:26,100 That wouldn't be fair either. 743 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:31,380 But is it not punitive and arbitrary to be holding someone indefinitely? 744 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:34,100 Well, I don't think we do hold anybody indefinitely. 745 00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:34,340 Well, I don't think I think people can progress through 746 00:31:34,340 --> 00:31:35,580 I think people can progress through 747 00:31:35,580 --> 00:31:35,820 the forensic mental-health system. I think people can progress through 748 00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:37,860 the forensic mental-health system. They don't have a release date. 749 00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:38,100 the forensic mental-health system. No, they don't have a release date. 750 00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:39,420 No, they don't have a release date. 751 00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:40,940 Nobody's saying it's easy, 752 00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:43,980 but we have to work in the best interest of the patient 753 00:31:43,980 --> 00:31:45,540 and the best interest of the community. 754 00:31:45,540 --> 00:31:48,060 I mean, the last thing anybody wants is re-offending, 755 00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:50,300 and that's what we're trying to avoid. 756 00:31:51,260 --> 00:31:55,620 Michael Heatley is facing another possible obstacle to his release. 757 00:31:55,620 --> 00:31:59,260 He's been looked at in a New South Wales Commission of Inquiry 758 00:31:59,260 --> 00:31:59,500 He's been looked at in a into gay-hate crimes. 759 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:01,300 into gay-hate crimes. 760 00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:05,220 A murder that Michael Heatley was acquitted of in the mid-'90s 761 00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:08,180 is being re-examined by the Special Commission of Inquiry 762 00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:08,420 is being re-examined by into LGBTQI hate crimes. 763 00:32:08,420 --> 00:32:11,420 into LGBTQI hate crimes. 764 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:16,140 Do you think that this should change our perception of Michael Heatley 765 00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:19,860 and his ability to potentially re-enter the community? 766 00:32:19,860 --> 00:32:20,100 No, I don't think it's relevant and his ability to potentially re-enter the community? 767 00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:21,580 No, I don't think it's relevant 768 00:32:21,580 --> 00:32:24,660 to the question of his mental state now 769 00:32:24,660 --> 00:32:28,140 or his level of dangerousness towards himself or the community. 770 00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:28,380 or his level of dangerousness towards himself or the community. That would be evaluated 771 00:32:28,380 --> 00:32:29,660 That would be evaluated 772 00:32:29,660 --> 00:32:29,900 according to his state of mind That would be evaluated 773 00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,540 according to his state of mind and state of being now. 774 00:32:33,540 --> 00:32:33,780 according to his state of mind It would not be impacted 775 00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:35,140 It would not be impacted 776 00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:39,140 by something that he may or may not have done in the mid-'90s. 777 00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:39,380 by something that he may or may not And the most violent offender 778 00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:41,220 And the most violent offender 779 00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:41,460 is entitled And the most violent offender 780 00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:43,980 is entitled to be regarded as a human being. 781 00:32:43,980 --> 00:32:44,220 is entitled It's human nature to deplore them, 782 00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:47,500 It's human nature to deplore them, 783 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,540 to criticise them, to be afraid of them. 784 00:32:50,540 --> 00:32:52,860 But, nevertheless, they are human beings, 785 00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:53,100 But, nevertheless, and we have to treat them as such 786 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:54,780 and we have to treat them as such 787 00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:59,300 and hope for their rehabilitation and return to society. 788 00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:02,460 (SIRENS WAIL) 789 00:33:17,980 --> 00:33:21,740 Australia's indefinite detention of people with a disability 790 00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:25,980 has been condemned on the international stage. 791 00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:30,140 All the way from Brisbane to the United Nations, New York. 792 00:33:30,140 --> 00:33:32,060 A group of Australian lawyers and advocates 793 00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:34,980 is at the United Nations calling for change. 794 00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:36,300 There couldn't be a more important... 795 00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:36,540 There couldn't be Lawyer Matilda Alexander 796 00:33:36,540 --> 00:33:37,780 Lawyer Matilda Alexander 797 00:33:37,780 --> 00:33:38,020 represents Queensland Lawyer Matilda Alexander 798 00:33:38,020 --> 00:33:41,380 represents Queensland forensic patients, including Adrian. 799 00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:41,620 represents Queensland They can't tell their story... 800 00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:42,700 They can't tell their story... 801 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:46,060 She's fighting for an end to their indefinite detention. 802 00:33:46,060 --> 00:33:50,260 The UN tried to come to Queensland to see the mental-health wards, 803 00:33:50,260 --> 00:33:54,700 to see the Forensic Disability Services in October 2022, 804 00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:54,940 to see the Forensic Disability and they weren't allowed in. 805 00:33:54,940 --> 00:33:56,300 and they weren't allowed in. 806 00:33:56,300 --> 00:34:00,860 So, we'll take the stories from those places 807 00:34:00,860 --> 00:34:01,100 So, we'll take the stories and present them today. 808 00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:02,980 and present them today. 809 00:34:02,980 --> 00:34:03,220 Only two countries in the world that and present them today. 810 00:34:03,220 --> 00:34:08,100 Only two countries in the world that the United Nations has cancelled... 811 00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:09,580 Yeah, two. ..their visit. 812 00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:11,260 Us and Rwanda. Us and Rwanda? 813 00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:11,500 Us and Rwanda. Yeah. 814 00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:12,300 Yeah. 815 00:34:15,180 --> 00:34:19,460 We are concerned that persons with psychosocial disabilities 816 00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:21,420 continue to be subject 817 00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:25,420 to widespread and multiple forms of discrimination. 818 00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:28,140 We remain concerned about insufficient protections 819 00:34:28,140 --> 00:34:28,380 We remain concerned against torture, abuse and neglect 820 00:34:28,380 --> 00:34:30,740 against torture, abuse and neglect 821 00:34:30,740 --> 00:34:34,380 of institutionalised people with disability. 822 00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:36,700 We cannot remain silent on the indefinite detention 823 00:34:36,700 --> 00:34:36,940 We cannot remain silent of people with disabilities. 824 00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:38,500 of people with disabilities. 825 00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:42,540 Institutionalisation is a discriminatory act of violence. 826 00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:42,780 Institutionalisation (APPLAUSE) 827 00:34:42,780 --> 00:34:46,580 (APPLAUSE) 828 00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:46,820 I don't know whether the government (APPLAUSE) 829 00:34:46,820 --> 00:34:49,300 I don't know whether the government will listen to our call. 830 00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:49,580 I don't know whether the government I don't know whether the government will really understand will listen to our call. 831 00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:51,900 I don't know whether the government will really understand 832 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:55,220 the importance of ending indefinite detention immediately 833 00:34:55,220 --> 00:34:55,460 the importance of ending for people with disability. 834 00:34:55,460 --> 00:34:58,060 for people with disability. 835 00:34:58,060 --> 00:34:58,260 for people with disability. I hope that they will hear, 836 00:34:58,260 --> 00:34:59,580 I hope that they will hear, 837 00:34:59,580 --> 00:35:01,060 I hope that they will listen 838 00:35:01,060 --> 00:35:02,820 and I hope that they will change. 839 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:11,180 Back home, pressure is building too. 840 00:35:11,180 --> 00:35:13,020 The Disability Royal Commission 841 00:35:13,020 --> 00:35:16,540 made recommendations to end indefinite detention 842 00:35:16,540 --> 00:35:20,340 and make prison a place of last resort for forensic patients. 843 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:22,660 For these people, 844 00:35:22,660 --> 00:35:26,420 getting out of prison doesn't necessarily solve their problems. 845 00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:26,660 getting out of prison doesn't necessarily solve their problems. Too often the damage is already done 846 00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:29,260 Too often the damage is already done 847 00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:32,980 and moving back into the community can be difficult. 848 00:35:34,540 --> 00:35:37,580 So, Mike, how's Chris going today? 849 00:35:37,580 --> 00:35:40,580 Unfortunately, he's not good today. 850 00:35:40,580 --> 00:35:43,500 No, he's been to the hospital, 851 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:45,180 but he didn't wait. 852 00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:50,140 And, apparently, according to the support worker, he ran off. 853 00:35:50,140 --> 00:35:53,100 So, we're just going to go down there and check on him 854 00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:53,340 So, we're just going and make sure he's OK. 855 00:35:53,340 --> 00:35:55,300 and make sure he's OK. 856 00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:55,540 And what did the support workers say and make sure he's OK. 857 00:35:55,540 --> 00:35:58,700 And what did the support workers say about what happened today? 858 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:03,460 Well, they're not sure whether it was a psychotic episode or not... 859 00:36:04,420 --> 00:36:08,420 ..but he has been shouting. 860 00:36:08,420 --> 00:36:09,380 OK. 861 00:36:10,340 --> 00:36:12,140 Which is not a good sign. 862 00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:14,220 Mike Portch's son Chris 863 00:36:14,220 --> 00:36:16,460 was released from prison last year. 864 00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:19,020 He has an intellectual disability, 865 00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:20,860 a history of substance abuse 866 00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:25,700 and has been charged with dozens of offences over three decades. 867 00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:28,540 Our life has been police, courts, prison. 868 00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:28,780 Our life has been Yeah, that'll be the next step... 869 00:36:28,780 --> 00:36:30,620 Yeah, that'll be the next step... 870 00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:35,460 All up, Chris has spent more than 20 years of his life in prison. 871 00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:39,900 He now lives in the Perth suburbs on an NDIS package. 872 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:42,460 Mike believes there still isn't enough support 873 00:36:42,460 --> 00:36:44,980 to help Chris transition into the community. 874 00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:48,380 It takes you over, consumes you. 875 00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:50,780 Yeah, not a nice way to live. 876 00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:54,180 Right. He lives just down here now. 877 00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:09,700 Hi, Chris. Hello. 878 00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:11,540 Hey. How're you going? 879 00:37:11,540 --> 00:37:14,060 All they want to say hello... Yeah. 880 00:37:14,060 --> 00:37:15,620 ..you know, and all that. 881 00:37:15,620 --> 00:37:17,540 We just wondered how you're going today. 882 00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:18,540 Yeah. Not bad. 883 00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:20,500 Just wanted to have a chat to you if it's OK, Chris, 884 00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:23,420 about some of the things that you've been through. 885 00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:25,660 Oh, yeah. Yeah. 886 00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:27,060 As young parents, 887 00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:30,860 we never dreamed that we would have a mentally impaired child. 888 00:37:30,860 --> 00:37:33,700 This happens to someone else, you know, 889 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,420 someone else's family, not us. 890 00:37:36,420 --> 00:37:41,540 Chris was born with the umbilical cord around his neck. 891 00:37:41,540 --> 00:37:45,300 We found out that this damaged the frontal lobes. 892 00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:45,540 We found out that this damaged As he grew and got older, 893 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:47,980 As he grew and got older, 894 00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:49,900 it was quite evident then. 895 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:55,020 He's impulsive. Poor memory. Poor decision-making. 896 00:37:55,020 --> 00:37:55,260 He's impulsive. Easily led. 897 00:37:55,260 --> 00:37:56,580 Easily led. 898 00:37:56,580 --> 00:37:59,780 Lots and lots of things like this. 899 00:37:59,780 --> 00:38:00,020 Got to the age of about 13 Lots and lots of things like this. 900 00:38:00,020 --> 00:38:04,020 Got to the age of about 13 in that photograph there. 901 00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:07,020 And that's when the nightmare started. 902 00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:10,260 When did he start to kind of get in trouble with... 903 00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:11,820 Yes... 904 00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:18,020 Well, basically, from the age of about 14, 15. 905 00:38:18,020 --> 00:38:18,260 Well, basically, It was different things. 906 00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:20,300 It was different things. 907 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:22,340 Petty theft. 908 00:38:22,340 --> 00:38:25,780 As the years went by, he got deeper into the drugs. 909 00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:26,020 As the years went by, The crime escalated. 910 00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:27,460 The crime escalated. 911 00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:31,700 And then I think he got to about 18 912 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:31,940 and that was the first time then And then I think he got to about 18 913 00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:34,660 and that was the first time then he was incarcerated. 914 00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:38,460 How would you sum up Chris's experience 915 00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:38,700 How would you sum up in the criminal justice system? 916 00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:40,860 in the criminal justice system? 917 00:38:40,860 --> 00:38:42,380 He's been destroyed, really. 918 00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:44,500 I don't know how he coped, to be truthful, 919 00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:44,740 but Chris is a survivor. I don't know how he coped, to be truthful, 920 00:38:44,740 --> 00:38:47,020 but Chris is a survivor. 921 00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:48,420 He's 50 years old. 922 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:50,660 I'm amazed he's still alive. 923 00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:55,140 In 2017 he was charged with dozens of offences, 924 00:38:55,140 --> 00:38:58,140 including threats to kill and theft. 925 00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:00,300 After two years in custody 926 00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:03,580 Chris Portch was placed on the West Australian equivalent 927 00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:03,820 Chris Portch was placed of a forensic order. 928 00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:05,500 of a forensic order. 929 00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:11,820 He ended up here at Perth's Disability Justice Centre. 930 00:39:11,820 --> 00:39:14,380 It's meant to provide state-of-the-art care 931 00:39:14,380 --> 00:39:17,860 for 10 patients with an intellectual disability, 932 00:39:17,860 --> 00:39:20,700 but has never housed more than three people. 933 00:39:21,820 --> 00:39:28,900 The decision was made to place Chris into the Disability Justice Centre. 934 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:29,140 The decision was made to place Chris We thought at last now 935 00:39:29,140 --> 00:39:30,380 We thought at last now 936 00:39:30,380 --> 00:39:30,620 that Chris would receive We thought at last now 937 00:39:30,620 --> 00:39:35,620 that Chris would receive the treatments that he needed. 938 00:39:35,620 --> 00:39:35,860 that Chris would receive Jeez, were we wrong. 939 00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:37,420 Jeez, were we wrong. 940 00:39:41,020 --> 00:39:42,740 It was clear to his parents 941 00:39:42,740 --> 00:39:42,980 that Chris It was clear to his parents 942 00:39:42,980 --> 00:39:45,620 that Chris wasn't being properly supervised. 943 00:39:45,620 --> 00:39:49,140 He stopped taking his antipsychotic medication 944 00:39:49,140 --> 00:39:49,380 He stopped taking and became increasingly distressed. 945 00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:52,060 and became increasingly distressed. 946 00:39:52,060 --> 00:39:54,940 He just cracked. Simple as that. 947 00:40:01,460 --> 00:40:05,300 He broke through the glass doors into the foyer entry 948 00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:05,540 He broke through the glass doors with a fire extinguisher. 949 00:40:05,540 --> 00:40:07,780 with a fire extinguisher. 950 00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:10,420 He sat down on the floor. 951 00:40:10,420 --> 00:40:10,660 Chris waited He sat down on the floor. 952 00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:12,900 Chris waited for the police to arrive. 953 00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:14,780 They arrested him. 954 00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:19,100 Despite two psychiatrists saying 955 00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:22,180 Chris should return to the Disability Justice Centre, 956 00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:26,340 the former WA Disability Services minister, Stephen Dawson, 957 00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:26,580 the former WA Disability refused to approve the request. 958 00:40:26,580 --> 00:40:29,540 refused to approve the request. 959 00:40:29,540 --> 00:40:29,780 This left the board refused to approve the request. 960 00:40:29,780 --> 00:40:32,940 This left the board that oversees forensic patients 961 00:40:32,940 --> 00:40:37,220 with little option but to send Chris back to prison. 962 00:40:37,220 --> 00:40:40,220 Was Chris particularly vulnerable in prison? 963 00:40:40,220 --> 00:40:40,460 Oh, he's very vulnerable in prison. Was Chris particularly vulnerable in prison? 964 00:40:40,460 --> 00:40:41,900 Oh, he's very vulnerable in prison. 965 00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:43,180 That's one of the problems 966 00:40:43,180 --> 00:40:46,100 for people with mental-health problems and cognitive impairment, 967 00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:46,340 for people with mental-health is that they're... 968 00:40:46,340 --> 00:40:47,780 is that they're... 969 00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:47,980 is that they're... ..a high risk of being victimised 970 00:40:47,980 --> 00:40:51,020 ..a high risk of being victimised 971 00:40:51,020 --> 00:40:51,260 from other prisoners ..a high risk of being victimised 972 00:40:51,260 --> 00:40:54,540 from other prisoners in the prison environment. 973 00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:59,140 Psychiatrist Adam Brett assessed Chris in Acacia Prison. 974 00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:04,780 Chris spent time in isolation and was tormented by other prisoners. 975 00:41:04,780 --> 00:41:08,460 When you saw him in prison, how was he? 976 00:41:08,460 --> 00:41:08,700 When you saw him in prison, He was clearly struggling. 977 00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:09,900 He was clearly struggling. 978 00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:12,420 He had a poor understanding of why he was in prison. 979 00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:12,660 He had a poor understanding He blamed others for his situation. 980 00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:15,540 He blamed others for his situation. 981 00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:15,780 Does the Western Australian He blamed others for his situation. 982 00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:18,860 Does the Western Australian government have a responsibility 983 00:41:18,860 --> 00:41:23,940 to protect people with a disability from things that happen, 984 00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:24,180 to protect people with a disability like what happened to Chris? 985 00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:26,100 like what happened to Chris? 986 00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:27,900 I think they do. 987 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:29,220 There are things afoot 988 00:41:29,220 --> 00:41:31,220 to try and address the problems in Western Australia, 989 00:41:31,220 --> 00:41:31,460 to try and address the problems which is good. 990 00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:32,540 which is good. 991 00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:35,220 So, we're moving forward at the moment. 992 00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:38,660 But I suppose that hasn't helped Chris. 993 00:41:38,660 --> 00:41:38,900 But I suppose Where does Chris belong? 994 00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:40,180 Where does Chris belong? 995 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:40,420 Well, I think Where does Chris belong? 996 00:41:40,420 --> 00:41:43,420 Well, I think Chris belongs in the community. 997 00:41:45,180 --> 00:41:46,940 The WA Justice Department 998 00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:49,740 says prisoners with a cognitive disability 999 00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:53,140 are usually held in a separate unit in Acacia Prison. 1000 00:41:53,140 --> 00:41:53,380 are usually held in a separate unit in Acacia Prison. A state government spokeswoman said 1001 00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:55,700 A state government spokeswoman said 1002 00:41:55,700 --> 00:42:00,220 if a resident at the DJC threatens violence or damages property, 1003 00:42:00,220 --> 00:42:03,780 then prison could be a better option for them. 1004 00:42:03,780 --> 00:42:06,180 New laws will come into effect next year 1005 00:42:06,180 --> 00:42:06,420 New laws will come into effect to end indefinite detention in WA, 1006 00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:09,540 to end indefinite detention in WA, 1007 00:42:09,540 --> 00:42:11,580 and the minister will no longer have the power 1008 00:42:11,580 --> 00:42:11,820 and the minister to refuse patients access to the DJC. 1009 00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:15,140 to refuse patients access to the DJC. 1010 00:42:16,180 --> 00:42:19,060 (CAWS) 1011 00:42:19,060 --> 00:42:23,580 Mike Portch feels the burden on families like his is too great 1012 00:42:23,580 --> 00:42:26,940 and more support is desperately needed. 1013 00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:31,460 You can't walk away from this unscathed. 1014 00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:35,420 It would break a lot of marriages, you know, having a child like this. 1015 00:42:35,420 --> 00:42:35,660 It takes its toll. It would break a lot of marriages, you know, having a child like this. 1016 00:42:35,660 --> 00:42:37,700 It takes its toll. 1017 00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:39,100 But broken? 1018 00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:41,500 Nearly. (CHUCKLES) But not quite. 1019 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:41,740 Nearly. (CHUCKLES) But not quite. They won't break me, that's for sure. 1020 00:42:41,740 --> 00:42:44,780 They won't break me, that's for sure. 1021 00:42:45,740 --> 00:42:48,140 We're doing a story about the experiences 1022 00:42:48,140 --> 00:42:48,380 We're doing a story of people in the prison system... 1023 00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:50,620 of people in the prison system... 1024 00:42:50,620 --> 00:42:51,500 Yeah. 1025 00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:53,300 ..and in the Disability Justice Centre. 1026 00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:54,780 Oh. Yeah. 1027 00:42:54,780 --> 00:42:58,020 Would it be OK for me to ask you some questions about that? 1028 00:42:58,020 --> 00:42:58,300 I told him a minute and then that's it. some questions about that? 1029 00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:01,140 I told him a minute and then that's it. 1030 00:43:02,340 --> 00:43:05,540 What was it like in the Disability Justice Centre for you? 1031 00:43:05,540 --> 00:43:05,780 What was it like in the Disability Oh, it wasn't nice. 1032 00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:07,340 Oh, it wasn't nice. 1033 00:43:07,340 --> 00:43:09,060 It wasn't nice. 1034 00:43:09,060 --> 00:43:10,180 No. 1035 00:43:10,180 --> 00:43:12,340 What was not nice about it, Chris? 1036 00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:14,940 I just didn't like it. 1037 00:43:14,940 --> 00:43:17,660 They stopped your tobacco, didn't they? 1038 00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:18,940 Yeah. 1039 00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:20,300 Was it hard being in there? 1040 00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:22,820 Yeah, it was. 1041 00:43:25,660 --> 00:43:28,060 And after you were... Is that a minute? 1042 00:43:28,060 --> 00:43:28,300 And after you were... (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) He's had enough. 1043 00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:29,780 (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) He's had enough. 1044 00:43:29,780 --> 00:43:31,500 Is that OK? Alright. Thank you. 1045 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:33,620 Thank you, Chris. Thanks, brother. Thanks, Chris. 1046 00:43:33,620 --> 00:43:35,260 Come here, mate. I'll see you then. 1047 00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:37,180 Alright. Alright? 1048 00:43:37,180 --> 00:43:37,420 Alright. Bye then. 1049 00:43:37,420 --> 00:43:38,540 Bye then. 1050 00:43:39,580 --> 00:43:42,420 I might look in tomorrow, see how you're going. 1051 00:43:43,820 --> 00:43:47,100 Mike's relieved that his son is OK for now. 1052 00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:51,660 Today he meets two of Chris's neighbours for the first time. 1053 00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:53,420 As long as he's not causing you any trouble and he's... 1054 00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:56,700 NEIGHBOUR: No! He always comes past, when he walks past, he says hello. 1055 00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:56,940 NEIGHBOUR: No! He always comes past, So... He's gorgeous. 1056 00:43:56,940 --> 00:43:58,220 So... He's gorgeous. 1057 00:43:58,220 --> 00:44:00,140 He's lovely. Yeah! 1058 00:44:00,140 --> 00:44:02,420 And often says hi. And we chat. Good. 1059 00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:02,660 And often says hi. And we chat. How often do you see him? 1060 00:44:02,660 --> 00:44:03,900 How often do you see him? 1061 00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:05,260 Oh, probably once a... 1062 00:44:05,260 --> 00:44:05,500 I probably see him every day almost. Oh, probably once a... 1063 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:06,780 I probably see him every day almost. Yeah! 1064 00:44:06,780 --> 00:44:08,140 Yeah. Yeah. 1065 00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:08,380 Yeah. He seems lonely sometimes. 1066 00:44:08,380 --> 00:44:09,700 He seems lonely sometimes. 1067 00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:12,940 Yes. He's very lonely. That's another problem. 1068 00:44:12,940 --> 00:44:16,020 And, I don't know, people can be scared of approaching him... 1069 00:44:16,020 --> 00:44:18,100 They do. They can. ..or something, but I'm not worried. 1070 00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:19,820 Oh, that's great. I think he probably needs a hug. 1071 00:44:19,820 --> 00:44:22,700 That's fantastic. Like, how often is he getting a hug? 1072 00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:23,980 He had a hug with you. That was nice. 1073 00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:24,220 He had a hug with you. Well, I always do when I see him. 1074 00:44:24,220 --> 00:44:25,860 Well, I always do when I see him. 1075 00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:33,260 Balancing community safety and the human rights of forensic patients 1076 00:44:33,260 --> 00:44:34,660 is a real dilemma. 1077 00:44:34,660 --> 00:44:36,540 Those trapped in the system 1078 00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:39,460 have been kept out of sight for so long. 1079 00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:39,700 have been kept out of sight Now they're finally being heard. 1080 00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:42,260 Now they're finally being heard. 1081 00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:51,940 What kind of life do you want outside of here, 1082 00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:52,180 What kind of life outside of the hospital? 1083 00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:53,580 outside of the hospital? 1084 00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:55,180 I want to return and have a life. 1085 00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:55,420 I'd like to go to work, I want to return and have a life. 1086 00:44:55,420 --> 00:44:56,660 I'd like to go to work, pay my taxes, 1087 00:44:56,660 --> 00:44:56,900 I'd like to go to work, live an honest and peaceful life. 1088 00:44:56,900 --> 00:44:58,260 live an honest and peaceful life. 1089 00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:02,940 (CAWS) 1090 00:45:27,580 --> 00:45:29,580 Captions by Red Bee Media 1091 00:45:29,580 --> 00:45:31,780 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation