1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:02,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:16,740 LOUISE MILLIGAN: For more than a century 3 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:18,420 Australian Rules football 4 00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:21,060 has captivated the nation. 5 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:24,860 MIKE WILLIAMSON: Oh, Jesaulenko! You beauty! 6 00:00:24,860 --> 00:00:28,660 ANTHONY HUDSON: I see it, but I don't believe it! 7 00:00:28,660 --> 00:00:30,900 BRIAN TAYLOR: Streaming through! (CHEERING) 8 00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:33,780 Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! 9 00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:36,500 (CHEERING) 10 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:38,980 EDDIE MCGUIRE: I love it because it's the most egalitarian sport. 11 00:00:38,980 --> 00:00:41,340 Doesn't matter how tall you are, how big you are, 12 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:41,580 Doesn't matter how tall you are, whoever's got the Sherrin in hand 13 00:00:41,580 --> 00:00:43,060 whoever's got the Sherrin in hand 14 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:45,860 is the most important person in the world at that moment. 15 00:00:45,860 --> 00:00:47,100 Storytelling. 16 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:48,860 Symbolism. 17 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:50,620 Ceremony. 18 00:00:50,620 --> 00:00:55,060 I mean, if it was in a pint glass, I would just pour it over my head. 19 00:00:55,060 --> 00:00:56,620 I love that about the game. 20 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:01,020 But football's egalitarian spirit 21 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:05,860 belies a traditionally hypermasculine culture 22 00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:11,460 where gay players still haven't found an entirely safe space. 23 00:01:11,460 --> 00:01:11,700 where gay players still haven't found It's a feeling of complete isolation 24 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:13,340 It's a feeling of complete isolation 25 00:01:13,340 --> 00:01:17,420 and a feeling that, if you want to be a part of that game, 26 00:01:17,420 --> 00:01:17,660 and a feeling that, if you a part of that situation, 27 00:01:17,660 --> 00:01:19,140 a part of that situation, 28 00:01:19,140 --> 00:01:20,420 you have to hide yourself. 29 00:01:20,420 --> 00:01:23,660 I thought that if anyone found out that I was gay, 30 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:27,140 that they would hate me, that they would think I was disgusting 31 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:29,100 because that was how they spoke all the time. 32 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:31,540 On one hand, 33 00:01:31,540 --> 00:01:36,500 football is an incredibly supportive and nurturing culture. 34 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:37,980 BOB MURPHY: We will put our arms around you, 35 00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:38,220 BOB MURPHY: We will put our arms around you, and if there was a dissenting voice, 36 00:01:38,220 --> 00:01:39,460 and if there was a dissenting voice, 37 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:42,780 they will be told to shut the fuck up or get out. 38 00:01:42,780 --> 00:01:43,020 they will be told A lot of talk, I mean... 39 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:44,340 A lot of talk, I mean... 40 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:44,580 On the other hand, A lot of talk, I mean... 41 00:01:44,580 --> 00:01:47,780 On the other hand, there's decades of homophobia. 42 00:01:47,780 --> 00:01:51,660 That is just an annoyingly gratuitous act. 43 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:53,500 What? Kissing your boyfriend. 44 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:53,740 What? (CHEERING) Kissing your boyfriend. 45 00:01:53,740 --> 00:01:54,500 (CHEERING) 46 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:54,740 BRIAN TAYLOR: I am up here getting (CHEERING) 47 00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:57,020 BRIAN TAYLOR: I am up here getting ready for it. He's a big poofter. 48 00:01:57,020 --> 00:01:57,300 BRIAN TAYLOR: I am up here getting (LAUGHTER) ready for it. He's a big poofter. I mean, give him this one, Harry! 49 00:01:57,300 --> 00:01:59,060 (LAUGHTER) I mean, give him this one, Harry! 50 00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:01,740 It's the toxic culture that they have allowed to continue. 51 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:05,540 Do you think, given the statistics in the AFL, 52 00:02:05,540 --> 00:02:08,140 that the AFL is a world leader in tackling homophobia? 53 00:02:08,140 --> 00:02:10,700 No. No. I think it's clear that we're not. 54 00:02:11,660 --> 00:02:13,540 Australian Rules football 55 00:02:13,540 --> 00:02:13,780 is the only major sporting code Australian Rules football 56 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:17,180 is the only major sporting code in the world 57 00:02:17,180 --> 00:02:17,420 that hasn't had a single male player is the only major sporting code in the world 58 00:02:17,420 --> 00:02:20,300 that hasn't had a single male player 59 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:24,540 in the elite competition, present or even past, 60 00:02:24,540 --> 00:02:24,780 in the elite competition, present or even past, publicly identify as gay. 61 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:27,540 publicly identify as gay. 62 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:29,580 In this episode of Four Corners 63 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:34,260 we investigate what is it about the culture in the AFL 64 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:34,500 we investigate what is it that has created this silence? 65 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:36,740 that has created this silence? 66 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:53,780 (INSECTS CHIRP) 67 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:03,900 This man held on to a secret for more than a decade. 68 00:03:04,860 --> 00:03:07,060 I was about sort of 12 or 13. 69 00:03:07,060 --> 00:03:10,540 I started realising who I was as a person. 70 00:03:10,540 --> 00:03:16,300 I started noticing that there wasn't people like me around AFL, 71 00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:19,300 there wasn't, you know, coaches, there wasn't AFL players. 72 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:22,220 I realised that the change rooms and the football field 73 00:03:22,220 --> 00:03:24,300 was just not a place that accepted me. 74 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:27,020 And so you stopped playing? I stopped playing completely, yeah. 75 00:03:29,540 --> 00:03:31,140 Let's get a move on. 76 00:03:31,140 --> 00:03:33,540 He returned to football in his 20s 77 00:03:33,540 --> 00:03:39,860 and now plays for Sydney's UNSW-Eastern Suburbs Bulldogs team. 78 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:43,100 In the change rooms in the bowels of Henson Park 79 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:45,620 they're pulling on their rainbow socks. 80 00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:48,340 PLAYER: Back yourselves. I love you, boys. 81 00:03:48,340 --> 00:03:49,700 Eight o'clock, boys! 82 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:54,300 Today the Dogs are playing in a Gay Pride Round. 83 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,300 They're not anywhere near as good as us. We make 'em feel it today. Yeah? 84 00:03:57,300 --> 00:03:58,580 Let's go. Let's go. 85 00:03:58,580 --> 00:04:00,380 One, two, three. ALL: Dogs! 86 00:04:00,380 --> 00:04:00,620 One, two, three. Yeah! 87 00:04:00,620 --> 00:04:01,380 Yeah! 88 00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:05,540 (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) 89 00:04:05,540 --> 00:04:07,180 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 90 00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:07,420 IAIN DUNSTAN: These rounds (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 91 00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:09,220 IAIN DUNSTAN: These rounds are really helpful for that, 92 00:04:09,220 --> 00:04:13,140 the people to see that everyone's completely normal, 93 00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:13,380 everything is fine here, the people to see that everyone's completely normal, 94 00:04:13,380 --> 00:04:14,860 everything is fine here, 95 00:04:14,860 --> 00:04:16,860 you know, there's nothing to fear, 96 00:04:16,860 --> 00:04:17,060 you know, there's nothing to fear, there's nothing to worry about. 97 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:18,140 there's nothing to worry about. 98 00:04:18,140 --> 00:04:19,420 The sky is not going to fall. 99 00:04:19,420 --> 00:04:21,180 The sky is NOT going to fall in. 100 00:04:21,180 --> 00:04:21,420 Go, boys! The sky is NOT going to fall in. 101 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:22,620 Go, boys! Whoo! 102 00:04:22,620 --> 00:04:22,860 Go, boys! (APPLAUSE) 103 00:04:22,860 --> 00:04:24,220 (APPLAUSE) 104 00:04:24,220 --> 00:04:28,900 This man is shrugging off the silence and the shame. 105 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:29,140 This man is shrugging off Right, boys, let's get out there! 106 00:04:29,140 --> 00:04:31,020 Right, boys, let's get out there! 107 00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:35,780 He's gay and he's proud. 108 00:04:35,780 --> 00:04:37,780 Come on, boys! Whoo! 109 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:40,340 I'm Michael O'Donnell, 110 00:04:40,340 --> 00:04:43,580 and I want everyone to feel safe and comfortable on the football field. 111 00:04:45,740 --> 00:04:49,940 We exist, and unless we tell people that we exist, 112 00:04:49,940 --> 00:04:51,180 they don't know about us. 113 00:04:51,180 --> 00:04:54,620 And so it's a really good opportunity to show younger people 114 00:04:54,620 --> 00:04:57,220 that there is a place for them in the game. 115 00:04:57,220 --> 00:05:03,500 What they are choosing is to not be the first person. 116 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:04,980 Thanks for all the support. 117 00:05:04,980 --> 00:05:09,140 Finding a place for gay male players in the elite game of football 118 00:05:09,140 --> 00:05:12,860 is something the AFL is still struggling with. 119 00:05:12,860 --> 00:05:13,100 is something the AFL In April, AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan 120 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:16,740 In April, AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan 121 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:16,980 confirmed to reporters there are In April, AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan 122 00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:22,300 confirmed to reporters there are gay players currently in AFL clubs, 123 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:27,020 but the comments he made after that raised eyebrows. 124 00:05:27,020 --> 00:05:29,540 So, the pressure and the weight of being THAT person 125 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:31,780 who is going to be the first AFL player 126 00:05:31,780 --> 00:05:35,460 who comes out and plays as an out gay man, 127 00:05:35,460 --> 00:05:35,700 who comes out I think that weight and that... 128 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:36,940 I think that weight and that... 129 00:05:36,940 --> 00:05:38,940 ..and I, frankly, understand why 130 00:05:38,940 --> 00:05:43,220 they would choose not to have to carry that burden around forever. 131 00:05:43,220 --> 00:05:45,700 What do you think about that choice of words? 132 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:49,220 It's absolutely a burden not being able to be yourself. 133 00:05:49,220 --> 00:05:49,460 I mean, you know what's a burden? It's absolutely a burden not being able to be yourself. 134 00:05:49,460 --> 00:05:50,980 I mean, you know what's a burden? 135 00:05:50,980 --> 00:05:51,220 A burden is having to hide I mean, you know what's a burden? 136 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:54,140 A burden is having to hide who you are every single day. 137 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:54,380 A burden is having to hide A burden is not being able 138 00:05:54,380 --> 00:05:55,620 A burden is not being able 139 00:05:55,620 --> 00:05:55,820 A burden is not being able to talk about your relationships, 140 00:05:55,820 --> 00:05:57,820 to talk about your relationships, 141 00:05:57,820 --> 00:05:59,740 about what you're doing on the weekend 142 00:05:59,740 --> 00:06:02,100 because people might figure out your sexuality. 143 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:02,340 because people That's a burden. 144 00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:03,420 That's a burden. 145 00:06:03,420 --> 00:06:04,860 Being a role model, 146 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:07,380 being open about who you are, being proud of who you are - 147 00:06:07,380 --> 00:06:09,380 that's not a burden, that's a privilege. 148 00:06:09,380 --> 00:06:12,780 Michael O'Donnell used to work in communications 149 00:06:12,780 --> 00:06:13,020 Michael O'Donnell for the Melbourne Football Club, 150 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:14,780 for the Melbourne Football Club, 151 00:06:14,780 --> 00:06:18,820 so, he understands the power of good messaging. 152 00:06:18,820 --> 00:06:20,020 If he can't use the right words then, 153 00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:21,780 that suggests to me that it hasn't been discussed 154 00:06:21,780 --> 00:06:25,300 on a higher level or on a wider basis. 155 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:26,540 And that's quite concerning. 156 00:06:26,540 --> 00:06:28,100 Why is that concerning? 157 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:29,940 Because it means they're not prepared. 158 00:06:29,940 --> 00:06:33,140 If the AFL aren't prepared for a player to come out, 159 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:34,380 they're in denial 160 00:06:34,380 --> 00:06:38,900 and it creates a bit of a vacuum as well. 161 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,460 Tanya Hosch is the AFL's General Manager 162 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:42,700 Tanya Hosch of Inclusion and Social Policy. 163 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:45,380 of Inclusion and Social Policy. 164 00:06:45,380 --> 00:06:45,620 I can understand of Inclusion and Social Policy. 165 00:06:45,620 --> 00:06:47,860 I can understand why Gill used that word. 166 00:06:47,860 --> 00:06:51,140 You know, I can see how that would feel like a burden to people. 167 00:06:51,140 --> 00:06:55,820 Speaking to LGBTIQ+ players and advocates, 168 00:06:55,820 --> 00:06:58,780 they say that that was a negative word to use. 169 00:06:58,780 --> 00:06:59,540 Yeah. 170 00:06:59,540 --> 00:07:01,580 Surely that was a time, 171 00:07:01,580 --> 00:07:03,780 these people say to us, 172 00:07:03,780 --> 00:07:05,980 when the leader of the AFL 173 00:07:05,980 --> 00:07:08,780 could have made a positive statement. 174 00:07:08,780 --> 00:07:10,780 Yeah, look, I think 175 00:07:10,780 --> 00:07:14,820 it's really good to hear that that's how it's been perceived. 176 00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:16,660 Certainly, you know, I... 177 00:07:16,660 --> 00:07:18,780 That... That framing you just gave 178 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:21,900 about the positive alternative and that encouragement, 179 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:22,140 about the positive alternative I've heard Gill do that as well. 180 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:24,700 I've heard Gill do that as well. 181 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:24,940 And, you know, he was very strong I've heard Gill do that as well. 182 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:31,620 And, you know, he was very strong around the marriage-equality issue 183 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:34,220 and I think has demonstrated in lots of settings 184 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:36,860 that his support is absolutely there. 185 00:07:37,820 --> 00:07:42,100 To get a sense of why the silence has been so pervasive 186 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:44,540 you have to look at the history. 187 00:07:44,540 --> 00:07:46,060 Over many years 188 00:07:46,060 --> 00:07:46,300 Over many years poking fun at gay people was a staple of programs like The Footy Show. 189 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:51,700 poking fun at gay people was a staple of programs like The Footy Show. 190 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:53,060 (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) 191 00:07:53,060 --> 00:07:54,620 There's a new gay church up there. 192 00:07:54,620 --> 00:07:57,780 There's a bit of a difference - only every second person kneels. 193 00:07:57,780 --> 00:08:00,060 Sammy, if you're still watching there, mate, 194 00:08:00,060 --> 00:08:01,260 next time Rowan takes your temperature, 195 00:08:01,260 --> 00:08:03,220 make sure it IS actually a thermometer, alright? 196 00:08:03,220 --> 00:08:03,460 make sure it IS actually (LAUGHTER) 197 00:08:03,460 --> 00:08:04,780 (LAUGHTER) 198 00:08:04,780 --> 00:08:07,500 MICHAEL O'DONNELL: It was just random jokes, little subtle words, 199 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:10,420 where you hear it constantly 200 00:08:10,420 --> 00:08:11,980 and it really digs into you. 201 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:13,620 Hearing those sort of words 202 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:13,820 internalises your homophobia Hearing those sort of words 203 00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:16,060 internalises your homophobia 204 00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:17,460 and it creates a sort of 205 00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:20,140 self-perpetuating hate within you as well. 206 00:08:20,140 --> 00:08:20,420 self-perpetuating hate within you as well. And that can be really, really difficult to deal with, 207 00:08:20,420 --> 00:08:22,300 And that can be really, really difficult to deal with, 208 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:24,980 and something that I dealt with for a really, really long time. 209 00:08:24,980 --> 00:08:25,220 and something that I dealt with (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 210 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:27,740 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 211 00:08:27,740 --> 00:08:29,580 Back in the 1990s 212 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:32,060 there was another young amateur footballer 213 00:08:32,060 --> 00:08:35,900 who was also scared to reveal his true self. 214 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:36,140 who was also scared His name was Matt Hall. 215 00:08:36,140 --> 00:08:38,540 His name was Matt Hall. 216 00:08:42,260 --> 00:08:46,900 In 1996 he contracted HIV. 217 00:08:46,900 --> 00:08:47,140 Decades later In 1996 he contracted HIV. 218 00:08:47,140 --> 00:08:49,620 Decades later Matt Hall made this film 219 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:49,860 Decades later to raise awareness about the disease. 220 00:08:49,860 --> 00:08:53,100 to raise awareness about the disease. 221 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:56,220 MATT HALL: Dealing with your own mortality as a 23-year-old 222 00:08:56,220 --> 00:08:59,340 is nothing I'd wish upon any person. 223 00:09:02,620 --> 00:09:05,420 The Victorian Amateur Football Association 224 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:05,660 The Victorian banned Matt Hall from playing 225 00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:07,660 banned Matt Hall from playing 226 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:09,460 because of his diagnosis. 227 00:09:09,460 --> 00:09:14,060 Matt's doctor, Darren Russell, helped him fight that decision. 228 00:09:14,060 --> 00:09:17,460 He just wanted to play footy, and he should be able to play footy. 229 00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:17,700 He just wanted to play footy, And so we spoke about that, 230 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:19,580 And so we spoke about that, 231 00:09:19,580 --> 00:09:21,540 and in the end 232 00:09:21,540 --> 00:09:26,060 he decided to fight against that decision. 233 00:09:26,060 --> 00:09:28,460 And I was incredibly proud of him for doing that. 234 00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:32,060 It was really an amazing thing for a young man to do. 235 00:09:32,060 --> 00:09:34,780 Please welcome Matt, who joins us tonight on The Footy Show. 236 00:09:34,780 --> 00:09:35,020 Please welcome Matt, who joins us (APPLAUSE) 237 00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:37,540 (APPLAUSE) 238 00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:40,660 Matt decided that, in order to change hearts, 239 00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:44,060 he needed to go on mainstream footy media. 240 00:09:44,060 --> 00:09:45,620 (APPLAUSE) 241 00:09:45,620 --> 00:09:47,100 Tell us first of all... 242 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:50,340 So, he came to me and he said, 243 00:09:50,340 --> 00:09:51,780 "I've got this situation, 244 00:09:51,780 --> 00:09:52,020 "I've got HIV and I'm being banned from playing football." "I've got this situation, 245 00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:55,100 "I've got HIV and I'm being banned from playing football." 246 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:58,180 And we said, "Right, OK, this is a big story." 247 00:09:58,180 --> 00:09:58,420 And we said, "Right, OK, this is a big story." Why did you put your hand up? 248 00:09:58,420 --> 00:09:59,380 Why did you put your hand up? 249 00:09:59,380 --> 00:09:59,620 I was reassured that I was 100% safe Why did you put your hand up? 250 00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:02,860 I was reassured that I was 100% safe from my doctor... 251 00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:07,220 Matt was fearful because of everything around him, 252 00:10:07,220 --> 00:10:11,780 but so courageous in stepping up and having this conversation. 253 00:10:11,780 --> 00:10:14,060 And my T-cells, which is your immune system... 254 00:10:14,060 --> 00:10:16,660 Eddie McGuire supported Matt Hall. 255 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:17,900 Well, good on you, mate. 256 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:19,900 I hope we're talking to you in about 50 years' time... 257 00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:20,140 I hope we're talking to you (APPLAUSE) 258 00:10:20,140 --> 00:10:24,180 (APPLAUSE) 259 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:28,140 Matt Hall won his case 260 00:10:28,140 --> 00:10:32,340 in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal. 261 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:36,900 He went public with the fact that he had HIV, 262 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:39,460 but he didn't go public with his other secret. 263 00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:39,700 but he didn't go public Mm. 264 00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:40,500 Mm. 265 00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:44,260 And looking back, that's... 266 00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:44,500 ..it's pretty incredible, really, And looking back, that's... 267 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:46,940 ..it's pretty incredible, really, when you think about it. 268 00:10:46,940 --> 00:10:47,180 ..it's pretty incredible, really, He came out as having HIV in 1998 269 00:10:47,180 --> 00:10:50,220 He came out as having HIV in 1998 270 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:50,420 He came out as having HIV in 1998 as a young sportsman in Melbourne, 271 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:53,220 as a young sportsman in Melbourne, 272 00:10:53,220 --> 00:10:55,700 you know, one of the first in the world really to do that, 273 00:10:55,700 --> 00:11:00,580 and yet he couldn't come out as being gay or didn't feel he could. 274 00:11:00,580 --> 00:11:03,740 It was another four years before he was able to do that. 275 00:11:03,740 --> 00:11:08,820 And maybe that says something about all of us as a society 276 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:09,060 And maybe that says something and the football community 277 00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:10,820 and the football community 278 00:11:10,820 --> 00:11:11,060 that it was easier having HIV and the football community 279 00:11:11,060 --> 00:11:14,380 that it was easier having HIV than it was to be gay. 280 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:18,220 In 2002 281 00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:20,900 Matt came out publicly as gay, 282 00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:25,780 the first Australian Rules footballer, albeit an amateur player, 283 00:11:25,780 --> 00:11:26,020 the first Australian Rules ever to do so. 284 00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:28,020 ever to do so. 285 00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:31,420 During those years 286 00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:33,660 the Australian government was confronting 287 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:33,900 the Australian government persistent homophobia in sport. 288 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:37,180 persistent homophobia in sport. 289 00:11:38,340 --> 00:11:40,820 So, in 2000 the Australian government issued 290 00:11:40,820 --> 00:11:41,100 what we would call a 'compliance directive' So, in 2000 the Australian government issued 291 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:43,100 what we would call a 'compliance directive' 292 00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:46,500 to all of the major sports in Australia, 293 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:49,060 and that compliance directive essentially said, 294 00:11:49,060 --> 00:11:49,340 and that compliance directive essentially said, "We have a serious homophobic language and discrimination problem 295 00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:52,900 "We have a serious homophobic language and discrimination problem 296 00:11:52,900 --> 00:11:55,740 "and you are legally required to do something about it." 297 00:11:55,740 --> 00:11:58,740 It didn't say, "This sometimes happens" or "occasionally happens." 298 00:11:58,740 --> 00:12:01,220 It said, "These behaviours are widespread in sport. 299 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:03,220 "You have a legal and human rights obligation 300 00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:03,460 "You have a legal and human rights "to do something about it." 301 00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:04,740 "to do something about it." 302 00:12:08,300 --> 00:12:12,660 The government warned sports that they risked costly litigation. 303 00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:14,940 It told them that they needed to set up 304 00:12:14,940 --> 00:12:18,820 a sophisticated anti-discrimination policy, 305 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:22,900 that they had to create an elaborate complaints process, 306 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:24,820 to keep a record of complaints 307 00:12:24,820 --> 00:12:29,900 and to create meaningful anti-homophobia campaigns. 308 00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:35,980 Every single step of the process was carefully laid out. 309 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:39,220 Two years later 310 00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:41,060 journalist Richard Watts 311 00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:44,340 was doing some research on homophobia in football 312 00:12:44,340 --> 00:12:48,620 and he checked on the progress in implementing those guidelines. 313 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:52,780 What did you find when you went to the clubs in 2002? 314 00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:56,100 None of them had acted on those guidelines. 315 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:58,340 They didn't even know it existed. 316 00:12:58,340 --> 00:13:00,980 What was your... What did you make of that? 317 00:13:00,980 --> 00:13:01,220 What was your... I was somewhat flabbergasted. 318 00:13:01,220 --> 00:13:03,100 I was somewhat flabbergasted. 319 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:05,580 What do you think that it demonstrated 320 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:09,100 that the AFL's attitude was to that document? 321 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:09,340 that the AFL's attitude I think it demonstrated 322 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:10,980 I think it demonstrated 323 00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:13,980 that homophobia wasn't really on their radar. 324 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:17,020 21 years later 325 00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:21,900 Four Corners decided to check with the AFL clubs and head office 326 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:26,820 to see if they had fully implemented the steps laid out in the warning. 327 00:13:26,820 --> 00:13:30,460 We thought it a fairly uncontroversial proposition, 328 00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:33,860 but we were met with some defensive responses. 329 00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:38,460 One media executive labelled our questions 'aggressive'. 330 00:13:38,460 --> 00:13:44,060 One club said that it couldn't reveal the information for privacy reasons. 331 00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:50,300 And another banned us from filming on the premises from that time forward. 332 00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:56,980 The AFL as a governing body has introduced a complaints process, 333 00:13:56,980 --> 00:14:00,620 but we found that, while some clubs have done more than others, 334 00:14:00,620 --> 00:14:03,740 none have fully implemented the guidelines. 335 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:05,980 And I just wonder 336 00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:11,100 why is it that some of the AFL clubs and some parts of the AFL industry 337 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:18,020 are so defensive about questions that go to important issues. 338 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:21,540 Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that. 339 00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:23,420 I'm really surprised to hear 340 00:14:23,420 --> 00:14:23,620 that there would be defensiveness I'm really surprised to hear 341 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:25,500 that there would be defensiveness 342 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:27,300 about policies that, you know, 343 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:31,020 we're constantly reviewing and updating 344 00:14:31,020 --> 00:14:31,300 we're constantly reviewing and updating to make sure that they don't become irrelevant and stale 345 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:34,780 to make sure that they don't become irrelevant and stale 346 00:14:34,780 --> 00:14:35,020 to make sure that they don't become and that we don't, you know, 347 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:36,860 and that we don't, you know, 348 00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:37,100 have knee-jerk reactions and that we don't, you know, 349 00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:42,100 have knee-jerk reactions to a moment of crisis, so to speak. 350 00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:45,500 It's updating, briefing club leadership 351 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,860 around what all of our responsibilities are 352 00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:52,500 to create an environment that is free from discrimination, 353 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:54,860 and that is a really high priority. 354 00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:57,580 RADIO VOICEOVER: SmartArts - 355 00:14:57,580 --> 00:15:00,940 news, reviews and interviews about the arts 356 00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:02,100 with Richard Watts. 357 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:04,900 And a very good morning to you. Richard with you here. 358 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,940 Working as an arts journalist and broadcaster, 359 00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:11,740 Richard Watts has also been a gay activist for many years. 360 00:15:11,740 --> 00:15:11,980 Richard Watts has also been So, we're going to be looking at... 361 00:15:11,980 --> 00:15:13,260 So, we're going to be looking at... 362 00:15:13,260 --> 00:15:14,780 Back in the early noughties 363 00:15:14,780 --> 00:15:18,060 he began to support his childhood team, Collingwood, 364 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:20,300 after a long hiatus. 365 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:21,540 I didn't like football. 366 00:15:21,540 --> 00:15:24,020 I associated it with the guys who bullied me at school. 367 00:15:24,020 --> 00:15:27,820 And then in my 20s a friend took me to a game, 368 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:30,380 and I went, "Oh, it's actually a fun game." 369 00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:34,340 But I would go to games and I would hear homophobic abuse, 370 00:15:34,340 --> 00:15:36,180 and I thought it needed to be challenged 371 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:38,300 and I thought it needed to be called out. 372 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:40,300 I literally just called up the Collingwood Football Club one day 373 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:43,380 and said, "Do you have a gay and lesbian supporters group?" 374 00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:43,620 and said, "Do you have And they said, "No. 375 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:44,940 And they said, "No. 376 00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:45,180 "We'd be interested in having And they said, "No. 377 00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:47,660 "We'd be interested in having a conversation. Come on in." 378 00:15:47,660 --> 00:15:47,900 "We'd be interested in having All that and more on the show today. 379 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:49,140 All that and more on the show today. 380 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:50,620 Hope you can stick around for a while. 381 00:15:50,620 --> 00:15:50,860 Hope you can stick around Richard Watts told Collingwood 382 00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:52,340 Richard Watts told Collingwood 383 00:15:52,340 --> 00:15:52,580 he wanted to call the group Richard Watts told Collingwood 384 00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:56,660 he wanted to call the group the Pink Magpies. 385 00:15:56,660 --> 00:16:00,180 The next day, when he was broadcasting his radio program, 386 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:00,420 The next day, when he was he got a call. 387 00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:01,700 he got a call. 388 00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:05,380 The receptionist literally kind of put the phone down 389 00:16:05,380 --> 00:16:06,940 and looked at me very puzzled and went, 390 00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:09,780 "Richard, Eddie McGuire is on the phone for you." 391 00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:15,340 Eddie McGuire also wanted a gay supporter group. 392 00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:21,940 So, the Pink Magpies became the first organisation of its kind in the AFL. 393 00:16:21,940 --> 00:16:26,300 Today there are Rainbow Pride clubs for many teams. 394 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:30,580 You set up the Pink Magpies in August 2001. 395 00:16:30,580 --> 00:16:31,820 22 years ago. 396 00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:38,780 Still, to this day, not a single AFL player, present or past, 397 00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:39,020 Still, to this day, not a single has publicly identified as gay. 398 00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:42,660 has publicly identified as gay. 399 00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:44,980 Which baffles me 400 00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:50,220 and to me says something about 401 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:52,620 not necessarily overt homophobia 402 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:55,540 but covert homophobia in the AFL. 403 00:16:55,540 --> 00:16:59,020 I believe there must be some kind of pressure 404 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:00,780 keeping people in the closet. 405 00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:03,300 If you're a 14- or a 15-year-old and you're gay, 406 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,100 you can come to a football club, you can be part of it... 407 00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:09,420 So, you were quietly behind the scenes, 408 00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:11,660 really, an ally of the gay community, 409 00:17:11,660 --> 00:17:14,180 in helping set up the Pink Magpies. 410 00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:15,380 Yeah. 411 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:16,940 And often on The Footy Show as well 412 00:17:16,940 --> 00:17:20,660 when there were arguments and so on about these issues, 413 00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:23,180 you were actually coming in defence... 414 00:17:23,180 --> 00:17:25,260 Yeah. ..of the gay community. 415 00:17:25,260 --> 00:17:26,020 Yeah. 416 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:28,420 But there were lots of comments made 417 00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:30,660 that were really hurtful to gay people 418 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:33,180 in that forum and in other football forums. 419 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:34,700 Yeah. Yeah, there were. Yeah. 420 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:34,900 I'm not being defensive of football, Yeah. Yeah, there were. Yeah. 421 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:36,820 I'm not being defensive of football, 422 00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:39,980 but I see football as being a microcosm of the community. 423 00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:43,540 You're going to have people who fervently believe it's wrong 424 00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:43,820 You're going to have people who fervently believe it's wrong because of their religious convictions 425 00:17:43,820 --> 00:17:45,620 because of their religious convictions 426 00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:45,860 because of their religious or whatever the case may be 427 00:17:45,860 --> 00:17:47,100 or whatever the case may be 428 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,780 or they just don't think it's right 429 00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:49,020 or they don't like the lifestyle or they just don't think it's right 430 00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:51,780 or they don't like the lifestyle of some people who are gay, 431 00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:52,020 or they don't like the lifestyle etcetera, etcetera. 432 00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:53,180 etcetera, etcetera. 433 00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:55,460 You know, some people like red wine, some people like white wine. 434 00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:55,700 You know, some people like red There's no, you know... 435 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,580 There's no, you know... 436 00:17:57,580 --> 00:17:57,820 But if you have got There's no, you know... 437 00:17:57,820 --> 00:18:00,140 But if you have got enough opportunity, 438 00:18:00,140 --> 00:18:03,260 particularly on footy shows like that, where... 439 00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:07,300 I always feel that it's good to have some knuckleheads, 440 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:09,820 it's good to have this discussion come, 441 00:18:09,820 --> 00:18:12,580 and then you can have the debate. 442 00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:15,060 Not even a debate. Then you can have the conversation. 443 00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:17,780 The only thing I'd be uncomfortable with - if I was in the showers... 444 00:18:17,780 --> 00:18:20,380 Drop the soap! And... No. 445 00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:22,940 In the showers, and I knew a player was gay 446 00:18:22,940 --> 00:18:24,420 and we're all showering together and... 447 00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:24,660 and we're all showering together As time wore on, 448 00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:25,980 As time wore on, 449 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:26,220 smutty innuendo on football media As time wore on, 450 00:18:26,220 --> 00:18:31,140 smutty innuendo on football media became something more intense. 451 00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:33,260 I'd be uncomfortable. (LAUGHTER) 452 00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:33,500 It made me worried about I'd be uncomfortable. (LAUGHTER) 453 00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:35,260 It made me worried about 454 00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:37,340 what other people would think about me if I was gay. 455 00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:38,420 And in change rooms, you know, 456 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:40,060 there's showers, there's those sort of things, 457 00:18:40,060 --> 00:18:40,300 and it really did scare me. there's those sort of things, 458 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,020 and it really did scare me. 459 00:18:43,540 --> 00:18:45,020 In 2010 460 00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:49,980 the AFL Players Association decided it needed to stand firm 461 00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:50,220 against homophobia in the game. decided it needed to stand firm 462 00:18:50,220 --> 00:18:52,820 against homophobia in the game. 463 00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:57,620 It drafted Western Bulldogs star Jason Akermanis 464 00:18:57,620 --> 00:19:00,780 to write about it in his regular newspaper column. 465 00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:05,060 But the column that appeared in the paper caused a scandal. 466 00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:05,340 But the column that appeared in the paper caused a scandal. REPORTER: The controversial forward says, 467 00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:06,820 REPORTER: The controversial forward says, 468 00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:08,660 "Gay footballers should stay in the closet." 469 00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:08,900 I think some footballers think "Gay footballers should stay in the closet." 470 00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:10,220 I think some footballers think 471 00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:12,940 there's something wrong with people, they have some kind of disease, 472 00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:13,180 there's something wrong with people, but I don't think that, of course. 473 00:19:13,180 --> 00:19:14,780 but I don't think that, of course. 474 00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:15,020 but I don't think that, of course. Akermanis, who is now a real-estate agent in Brisbane, 475 00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:18,580 Akermanis, who is now a real-estate agent in Brisbane, 476 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:20,940 has always been a divisive figure, 477 00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:26,220 but he believes he represents a view still held by many in football. 478 00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:30,780 He does say the newspaper's headline was not true to his words. 479 00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:33,660 It was changed a lot. 480 00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:36,580 But nowhere was there like, "Stay in the closet," or anything like that. 481 00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:38,460 I just said, "Why would you bother? Do you need... 482 00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:41,780 "Think about it. We don't care. It's up to you." 483 00:19:41,780 --> 00:19:45,340 Back then I was like, "Well, you know, give them a different slant." 484 00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:48,820 "Why would you want to? You have to think about it. Is it worth it?" 485 00:19:48,820 --> 00:19:49,060 "Why would you want to? You have to They're good questions to ask. 486 00:19:49,060 --> 00:19:50,500 They're good questions to ask. 487 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:51,980 You've got to weigh it up. 488 00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:53,900 You know, it is a burden. It's a heavy burden. 489 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:58,260 What was the feeling in your gut when you saw those words in print? 490 00:19:58,260 --> 00:19:58,500 What was the feeling in your gut I was disgusted. 491 00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:00,300 I was disgusted. 492 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,460 I was embarrassed. 493 00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:07,580 And I was hurt. 494 00:20:07,580 --> 00:20:10,060 But then the hurt took a turn. 495 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:14,580 What if one of my team-mates is gay? 496 00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:17,540 Bob Murphy was a player 497 00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:20,100 in the Western Bulldogs leadership team 498 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:23,220 at the time Jason Akermanis wrote the column. 499 00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:23,500 at the time Jason Akermanis wrote the column. It's the first time he's agreed to an interview about the subject. 500 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:28,660 It's the first time he's agreed to an interview about the subject. 501 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:32,580 We showed Bob Murphy the news coverage from the time. 502 00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:32,820 We showed Bob Murphy I think some footballers think 503 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:34,060 I think some footballers think 504 00:20:34,060 --> 00:20:36,980 there's something wrong with people, they have some kind of disease, 505 00:20:36,980 --> 00:20:37,220 there's something wrong with people, but I don't think that, of course. 506 00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:38,740 but I don't think that, of course. 507 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:38,980 Murphy and other players but I don't think that, of course. 508 00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:41,900 Murphy and other players confronted Akermanis, 509 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:42,140 Murphy and other players and it led to a breakdown in trust 510 00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:44,380 and it led to a breakdown in trust 511 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,260 that ultimately saw the Bulldogs sack Akermanis. 512 00:20:48,260 --> 00:20:51,860 Murphy still struggles to say his name. 513 00:20:51,860 --> 00:20:55,100 I did want to get on record with the author and say... 514 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:55,340 I did want to get on record ..I think what I said to him was, 515 00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:56,940 ..I think what I said to him was, 516 00:20:56,940 --> 00:21:00,620 "That abhorrent shit that you wrote in the paper..." 517 00:21:00,620 --> 00:21:00,860 "That abhorrent shit For me at that time in my life 518 00:21:00,860 --> 00:21:02,860 For me at that time in my life 519 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:03,100 I was like, For me at that time in my life 520 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:05,820 I was like, "Well, that's... We're done." 521 00:21:05,820 --> 00:21:09,300 You were branded as a homophobe for writing that column. 522 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:10,820 Oh, yeah. Are you a homophobe? 523 00:21:10,820 --> 00:21:11,100 Yeah, I got branded every homophobic...you name it. Oh, yeah. Are you a homophobe? 524 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,900 Yeah, I got branded every homophobic...you name it. 525 00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:15,980 Just because I write about it and you don't agree with it 526 00:21:15,980 --> 00:21:16,220 Just because I write about it and you don't agree with it doesn't mean that I'm like... 527 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:18,900 doesn't mean that I'm like... 528 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:21,420 That would mean that I'm scared of gay people, 529 00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:23,020 which is just complete crap. 530 00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:25,500 Look, I personally don't care one way or the other 531 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:27,300 as long as you don't sort of throw it in my face 532 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,900 or try and tell me where I'm not interested, 533 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:31,700 then...you know, I don't go around telling anyone 534 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:31,940 then...you know, what I do in my private life. 535 00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:33,180 what I do in my private life. 536 00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:36,460 There were people who disagreed with what you said. 537 00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:39,820 What about the people who were hurt by what you said? 538 00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:41,820 Well, I always say anyone that's hurt, 539 00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:44,340 "That's YOUR issue, it's YOUR problem, 540 00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:46,820 "so, if you need to seek counselling, go and do it." 541 00:21:46,820 --> 00:21:47,060 "so, if you need (COMMENTATOR SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 542 00:21:47,060 --> 00:21:49,980 (COMMENTATOR SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 543 00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:51,380 The hurt continued. 544 00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:53,020 In 2012 545 00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:56,860 the Saints' Stephen Milne used a homophobic slur 546 00:21:56,860 --> 00:21:57,100 the Saints' Stephen Milne right in the middle of the MCG. 547 00:21:57,100 --> 00:21:59,340 right in the middle of the MCG. 548 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:00,500 (CHEERING) 549 00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,180 (COMMENTATOR SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 550 00:22:05,340 --> 00:22:08,420 COMMENTATOR: The umpire said then that that was reckless. 551 00:22:08,420 --> 00:22:09,780 They'll certainly have a look at it... 552 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:10,060 They'll certainly have a look at it... (UMPIRE BLOWS WHISTLE) 50 metres as well. 553 00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:12,380 (UMPIRE BLOWS WHISTLE) 50 metres as well. 554 00:22:12,380 --> 00:22:14,020 That language is unacceptable! 555 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:16,420 (CHEERING) 556 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:19,100 The slur had a galvanising effect. 557 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:23,620 Watching was a young footballer from Melbourne's Yarra Valley. 558 00:22:25,380 --> 00:22:27,860 Jason Ball, who was an amateur player, 559 00:22:27,860 --> 00:22:31,780 decided to stand up to be part of change. 560 00:22:31,780 --> 00:22:33,900 JASON BALL: I had an actual experience 561 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:36,980 of what it was like to hear homophobic language, 562 00:22:36,980 --> 00:22:38,340 what it was like to feel like 563 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:40,820 I wouldn't be accepted, like I had to hide who I was, 564 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:42,180 like I had to choose 565 00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:45,460 between being who I was and playing the game that I loved. 566 00:22:45,460 --> 00:22:47,700 And so that was why I wanted to share my story. 567 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,940 (PROTESTERS CHANT INDISTINCTLY) 568 00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:51,820 ALL: (CHANT) We will not be quiet! 569 00:22:51,820 --> 00:22:57,900 Jason Ball now works in London for an LGBTIQ+ charity. 570 00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:00,140 He's a passionate activist. 571 00:23:00,140 --> 00:23:02,100 But back in 2012 572 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:06,940 he became the second Australian Rules footballer after Matt Hall 573 00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:09,540 to come out publicly as gay. 574 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:14,140 (PROTESTERS CHANT INDISTINCTLY) 575 00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:18,300 Jason Ball was the face of a change.org petition. 576 00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:21,780 The petition specifically asked the AFL 577 00:23:21,780 --> 00:23:24,140 to show 'No To Homophobia' ads on the big screen 578 00:23:24,140 --> 00:23:24,380 to show 'No To Homophobia' ads and to commit to a Pride Round. 579 00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:25,900 and to commit to a Pride Round. 580 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:29,100 It was about a few days after my petition was launched 581 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:33,580 that I got a call from the then CEO, Andrew Demetriou, 582 00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:35,060 who said that the AFL would screen 583 00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:37,620 'No To Homophobia' ads on the big screen during the finals. 584 00:23:39,060 --> 00:23:42,460 He expected the floodgates to open. 585 00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:44,340 They didn't. 586 00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:49,620 Yeah, the floodgates didn't open. 587 00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:52,460 You know, I was hoping that that would be an example 588 00:23:52,460 --> 00:23:55,220 for an AFL player who was in my situation 589 00:23:55,220 --> 00:23:55,460 for an AFL player to know that it can be OK. 590 00:23:55,460 --> 00:23:56,900 to know that it can be OK. 591 00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:00,580 We've since had other players come out in other leagues 592 00:24:00,580 --> 00:24:02,460 all around the world and here in Australia, 593 00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:05,860 but, sure enough, here in the AFL, 594 00:24:05,860 --> 00:24:06,100 but, sure enough, it's the one code 595 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:07,420 it's the one code 596 00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:10,580 where there's no male player who yet, past or present, 597 00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:12,820 has felt comfortable enough to come out. 598 00:24:14,980 --> 00:24:16,220 Brock McLean, 599 00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:18,020 a talented midfielder 600 00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:19,980 for Carlton and the Melbourne Demons, 601 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:20,220 for Carlton and the Melbourne Demons, supported Jason Ball at the time he came out. 602 00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:23,740 supported Jason Ball at the time he came out. 603 00:24:23,740 --> 00:24:27,180 Brock was one of two professional AFL players 604 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:27,420 Brock was one of two who were the first in the competition 605 00:24:27,420 --> 00:24:29,660 who were the first in the competition 606 00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:29,900 to ever walk who were the first in the competition 607 00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,740 to ever walk in Melbourne's Gay Pride march. 608 00:24:34,740 --> 00:24:37,140 I just remember on the day I didn't think it was a big deal, 609 00:24:37,140 --> 00:24:39,660 like, all I was doing is just walking with someone 610 00:24:39,660 --> 00:24:41,340 down Fitzroy Street. 611 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:44,060 But I had so many gay people who were there that day 612 00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:47,780 and they said, "You have no idea how much, you know, this means to me." 613 00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:50,820 And I was like, "If that's all it takes to make a huge difference, 614 00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:54,620 "you know, to such a marginalised community of people, 615 00:24:54,620 --> 00:24:57,660 "then, you know, that's the least I can do." 616 00:24:58,860 --> 00:25:00,100 (WHISTLE BLOWS) 617 00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:00,340 Brock McLean has retired (WHISTLE BLOWS) 618 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:03,900 Brock McLean has retired from professional football now 619 00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:07,140 and plays for a team in a small country town. 620 00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:07,380 and plays for a team (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 621 00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:08,780 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 622 00:25:08,780 --> 00:25:11,180 Oh, yeah. Got a media release! 623 00:25:11,180 --> 00:25:12,380 (LAUGHTER) 624 00:25:12,380 --> 00:25:15,060 Oh, here we go. Don't be shy now, boys. Don't be shy! 625 00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:15,300 Oh, here we go. Don't be shy now, No, I'm not! 626 00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:16,660 No, I'm not! 627 00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:18,220 (LAUGHTER) 628 00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:23,380 He's not gay, but he knows what it's like to feel isolated and alone 629 00:25:23,380 --> 00:25:28,820 inside the change rooms of the hypermasculine world of football. 630 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:30,500 That's it. Well done. 631 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,100 Here we go! Come on! 632 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:34,180 Feed off each other! 633 00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:40,420 (INDISTINCT ENCOURAGEMENT) 634 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:40,660 When Brock (INDISTINCT ENCOURAGEMENT) 635 00:25:40,660 --> 00:25:43,700 When Brock was marching with Jason Ball 636 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:49,300 his team didn't know he was mentally tormented and abusing narcotics. 637 00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:52,300 There was a good couple of years there 638 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:53,700 where suicidal ideation 639 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:56,220 was something that I experienced on a daily basis. 640 00:25:56,220 --> 00:25:56,460 was something that I experienced I couldn't talk to anyone about it 641 00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:57,700 I couldn't talk to anyone about it 642 00:25:57,700 --> 00:25:59,500 because it would have been emasculating 643 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:01,380 and a huge sign of failure and weakness. 644 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:01,620 and a huge sign So, I could certainly empathise 645 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:03,460 So, I could certainly empathise 646 00:26:03,460 --> 00:26:04,460 with, you know, 647 00:26:04,460 --> 00:26:07,860 anyone who might have been hiding their own sexuality. 648 00:26:10,020 --> 00:26:15,100 Bob Murphy also feels passionate about speaking up against homophobia 649 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:15,340 Bob Murphy also feels passionate in the sport he loves. 650 00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:17,660 in the sport he loves. 651 00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:21,860 He considers himself a strong ally of the gay community, 652 00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:25,660 and that's why he's chosen to talk about a memory he's ashamed of 653 00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:25,900 and that's why he's chosen to from his early days in football. 654 00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:28,180 from his early days in football. 655 00:26:29,260 --> 00:26:31,140 BOB MURPHY: I was playing in the forward line 656 00:26:31,140 --> 00:26:31,380 BOB MURPHY: and I was going through 657 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:32,820 and I was going through 658 00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:36,060 what would be commonly known as the 'goal-kicking yips'. 659 00:26:36,060 --> 00:26:40,140 It's where you're not just missing goals, 660 00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:42,900 you are completely mentally ravaged, 661 00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:47,420 like, you go from missing goals, like, easy goals, 662 00:26:47,420 --> 00:26:48,980 to you're not even getting close. 663 00:26:50,580 --> 00:26:53,620 Murphy, who now works for the Fremantle Dockers, 664 00:26:53,620 --> 00:26:56,660 remembered something he'd often say to himself 665 00:26:56,660 --> 00:26:56,900 remembered something when he was missing those goals. 666 00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:59,660 when he was missing those goals. 667 00:26:59,660 --> 00:27:01,300 And I would refer to myself 668 00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:01,540 as a, "Fuckin' poofter. And I would refer to myself 669 00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:05,100 as a, "Fuckin' poofter. You fuckin' poofter." 670 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:05,340 as a, "Fuckin' poofter. And at the time I didn't even... 671 00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:09,380 And at the time I didn't even... 672 00:27:10,340 --> 00:27:12,140 It was a thoughtless... 673 00:27:12,140 --> 00:27:12,380 I was just thinking about It was a thoughtless... 674 00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:14,700 I was just thinking about the goal and the technique 675 00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:14,940 I was just thinking about and the mental anguish and the... 676 00:27:14,940 --> 00:27:16,700 and the mental anguish and the... 677 00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:19,140 But that's what I said to myself. 678 00:27:19,140 --> 00:27:21,980 I hated it about myself so much 679 00:27:21,980 --> 00:27:22,220 and it...you know, it then forces I hated it about myself so much 680 00:27:22,220 --> 00:27:27,180 and it...you know, it then forces you to ask deeper questions like, 681 00:27:27,180 --> 00:27:27,420 and it...you know, it then forces "Why? Why is that your reaction?" 682 00:27:27,420 --> 00:27:30,900 "Why? Why is that your reaction?" 683 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:32,940 And then I... Then you start, 684 00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:37,260 "Who walked behind me? Who else was around? 685 00:27:37,260 --> 00:27:39,500 "What if... What if a gay footballer 686 00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:42,340 "who I played with, 687 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:45,420 "who would have assumed I was an ally, 688 00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:47,900 "heard me talk like that about myself 689 00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:52,180 "in a way that's... self-flagellation?" 690 00:27:52,180 --> 00:27:53,380 You know. 691 00:27:53,380 --> 00:27:55,340 Equating 'poofter' with 'weak'. 692 00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:56,340 Yep. 693 00:27:57,580 --> 00:27:59,300 And... 694 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:01,220 ..sitting here with you... 695 00:28:02,380 --> 00:28:06,820 ..is me trying to create that space of... 696 00:28:08,260 --> 00:28:10,020 ..putting myself out there 697 00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:11,940 and giving my support credibility 698 00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:15,060 by also saying I'm not perfect 699 00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:18,580 and I've got something that I'm deeply ashamed of. 700 00:28:18,580 --> 00:28:22,020 And if I hurt someone, I'll never get over it. 701 00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:25,220 Call it! Call it! 702 00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:29,500 The homophobic language often starts at junior football, 703 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:33,780 where many studies have found slurs are commonplace. 704 00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:38,980 UNSW-Eastern Suburbs Bulldogs president, Iain Dunstan, 705 00:28:38,980 --> 00:28:39,220 UNSW-Eastern Suburbs Bulldogs has seen it too. 706 00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:40,620 has seen it too. 707 00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:45,180 IAIN DUNSTAN: So, they use words they don't even know. 708 00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:49,780 I've had to go to the tribunal with a 12-year-old who... 709 00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:53,060 ..used an inappropriate word. 710 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:54,740 What was the word? 'Faggot'. 711 00:28:54,740 --> 00:28:59,940 Right, 'faggot' is a very common term with teenage boys. 712 00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:00,180 Right, 'faggot' is a very common And I got to the tribunal 713 00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:03,100 And I got to the tribunal 714 00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:03,340 and he was charged with, you know, And I got to the tribunal 715 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:06,820 and he was charged with, you know, inappropriate language. 716 00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:07,060 and he was charged with, you know, And we went to the tribunal, 717 00:29:07,060 --> 00:29:09,820 And we went to the tribunal, 718 00:29:09,820 --> 00:29:11,820 he had absolutely no idea what he'd said. 719 00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:12,100 The constant use of homophobic language, he had absolutely no idea what he'd said. 720 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:16,460 The constant use of homophobic language, 721 00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:18,340 the constant use of sexist language, 722 00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:22,340 as a means to assert one's sort of masculinity and toughness, 723 00:29:22,340 --> 00:29:22,620 as a means to assert one's sort of masculinity and toughness, it kind of just felt like it went hand in hand with the game. 724 00:29:22,620 --> 00:29:26,140 it kind of just felt like it went hand in hand with the game. 725 00:29:26,140 --> 00:29:28,980 It was part and parcel of the culture. It was expected. 726 00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:33,540 And, you know, I took that really seriously when I heard it. 727 00:29:33,540 --> 00:29:36,780 I thought that, if anyone found out that I was gay, 728 00:29:36,780 --> 00:29:37,020 I thought that, if anyone that they would hate me. 729 00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:38,460 that they would hate me. 730 00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:44,220 Dr Erik Denison is one of the country's leading experts 731 00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:48,780 on collating data on homophobic language in sport. 732 00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:52,460 ERIK DENISON: The idea that AFL is safe and inclusive and welcoming 733 00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:53,540 for gay people 734 00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:55,020 is just...it's fiction. 735 00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:57,140 It's a delusion. It's not true. 736 00:29:57,140 --> 00:30:00,180 So, if we want to come up, and we'll take it in turns. 737 00:30:00,180 --> 00:30:03,540 Dr Denison charted how, in 2014, 738 00:30:03,540 --> 00:30:07,260 then AFL CEO, Andrew Demetriou, 739 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:09,260 pledged to take action 740 00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:14,060 to make the code a world leader in tackling homophobia. 741 00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:16,420 (APPLAUSE) 742 00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:19,020 ANDREW DEMETRIOU: Vilification based on sexual identity 743 00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:19,260 ANDREW DEMETRIOU: Vilification is just as serious an offence 744 00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:21,540 is just as serious an offence 745 00:30:21,540 --> 00:30:26,300 as vilification based on gender, race, religion. 746 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:27,540 And in that commitment it says 747 00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:29,500 that homophobic behaviour and other things 748 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:32,020 are widespread in sport and cause serious harm to children. 749 00:30:32,020 --> 00:30:33,380 So, we signed that. 750 00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:33,620 They've committed to do something about it. So, we signed that. 751 00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:35,540 They've committed to do something about it. 752 00:30:35,540 --> 00:30:38,340 And now people who are harmed by that 753 00:30:38,340 --> 00:30:38,580 And now could seek compensation from them 754 00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:39,980 could seek compensation from them 755 00:30:39,980 --> 00:30:40,220 could seek compensation from them because they've admitted there's a problem. 756 00:30:40,220 --> 00:30:41,700 because they've admitted there's a problem. 757 00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:41,940 because they've admitted Since 2014 758 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:43,500 Since 2014 759 00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:46,020 we've done analysis of the different sports 760 00:30:46,020 --> 00:30:49,140 looking at who's taken action, who hasn't, 761 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:50,700 and the AFL is way at the bottom. 762 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:54,180 Andrew Demetriou was the CEO of the AFL 763 00:30:54,180 --> 00:30:54,420 Andrew Demetriou and he promised that the AFL 764 00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:56,100 and he promised that the AFL 765 00:30:56,100 --> 00:31:00,100 would be a world leader in tackling homophobia. 766 00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:02,980 Do you think, given the statistics in the AFL, 767 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:05,900 that the AFL is a world leader in tackling homophobia? 768 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:06,180 No. No. I think it's clear that we're not. that the AFL is a world leader in tackling homophobia? 769 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:09,460 No. No. I think it's clear that we're not. 770 00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:09,700 But, you know, certainly that we're not. 771 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:11,980 But, you know, certainly 772 00:31:11,980 --> 00:31:12,220 But, you know, certainly for us to be a world leader, 773 00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:15,980 it's a great ambition for us to be a world leader, 774 00:31:15,980 --> 00:31:16,220 it's a great ambition for us to be a world leader, but we're certainly not there yet. 775 00:31:16,220 --> 00:31:17,660 but we're certainly not there yet. 776 00:31:17,660 --> 00:31:20,260 There's different work happening across the states. 777 00:31:20,260 --> 00:31:23,740 What I would say, though, is...openly acknowledge 778 00:31:23,740 --> 00:31:29,180 that we've got a lot more to do at large across the entire code. 779 00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:31,860 And I think we're putting the right building blocks in place 780 00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:34,660 to be, you know, a stronger contributor. 781 00:31:41,460 --> 00:31:45,300 Since 2016 the Sydney Swans and St Kilda 782 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:45,540 Since 2016 have hosted an annual Pride Match. 783 00:31:45,540 --> 00:31:48,580 have hosted an annual Pride Match. 784 00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:52,180 The Swans released this Pride chant this year. 785 00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:57,340 (CHEERING) 786 00:31:59,020 --> 00:32:03,860 Chloe Clark is an activism coordinator at Amnesty International. 787 00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:07,700 She's been trying unsuccessfully for years 788 00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:10,900 to get other teams in the AFL men's competition 789 00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:11,140 to get other teams to agree to a Pride Round. 790 00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:13,500 to agree to a Pride Round. 791 00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:17,180 What does the research show about Pride Rounds? 792 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:19,660 It shows that even by having the conversation 793 00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:25,500 that homophobic behaviour and language rapidly changes. 794 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,420 It shows that people are very receptive to this. 795 00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:32,740 It shows that if you do an entire Pride Round 796 00:32:32,740 --> 00:32:35,020 and you take people on that journey with you, 797 00:32:35,020 --> 00:32:37,660 you take people on that and you educate them, 798 00:32:37,660 --> 00:32:42,020 it shows that, you know, the likes of homophobic use of language 799 00:32:42,020 --> 00:32:42,260 it shows that, you know, the likes can reduce 40%. 800 00:32:42,260 --> 00:32:44,300 can reduce 40%. 801 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:44,540 How does the AFL can reduce 40%. 802 00:32:44,540 --> 00:32:47,500 How does the AFL compare to other sports 803 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,100 when it comes to tackling homophobia? 804 00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:54,580 They just don't compare to other sports. 805 00:32:56,060 --> 00:32:57,540 Two months ago 806 00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:01,420 the AFL Players' Association released a report 807 00:33:01,420 --> 00:33:01,660 the AFL Players' Association based on a survey of AFL players. 808 00:33:01,660 --> 00:33:04,380 based on a survey of AFL players. 809 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:08,620 The footballers described a culture of silence 810 00:33:08,620 --> 00:33:08,860 The footballers where they felt threatened 811 00:33:08,860 --> 00:33:10,220 where they felt threatened 812 00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:14,820 by the potential consequences of speaking out. 813 00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:17,060 It talks about the culture of silence, 814 00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:17,300 It talks about but there's one big, giant silence 815 00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:20,180 but there's one big, giant silence 816 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:22,380 that isn't discussed in that report 817 00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:25,260 and that is the one that we're speaking about today. 818 00:33:25,260 --> 00:33:25,500 Yeah, and it's...this is a topic and that is the one that we're speaking about today. 819 00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,180 Yeah, and it's...this is a topic 820 00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:31,060 that I think we all are very interested in. 821 00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:31,340 that I think we all are very interested in. I think players have felt very uncomfortable 822 00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:33,180 I think players have felt very uncomfortable 823 00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:33,420 I think players taking issue or talking up 824 00:33:33,420 --> 00:33:35,060 taking issue or talking up 825 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:35,300 about things that potentially taking issue or talking up 826 00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:38,860 about things that potentially negatively impact the team. 827 00:33:38,860 --> 00:33:40,540 It's something we need to keep working on 828 00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:43,700 because, you know, at its core, these are people issues, 829 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:45,140 and I think at times 830 00:33:45,140 --> 00:33:48,500 you've got to actually put the performance of the team 831 00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:48,740 you've got to actually as a secondary consideration 832 00:33:48,740 --> 00:33:50,220 as a secondary consideration 833 00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:53,660 if people's rights are being... or people are being harmed 834 00:33:53,660 --> 00:33:55,500 through what's happening within the industry. 835 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:55,780 Everyone has the right to be who they are through what's happening within the industry. 836 00:33:55,780 --> 00:33:58,140 Everyone has the right to be who they are 837 00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:01,100 and to express that and to be safe doing so. 838 00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:01,340 It's absolutely a human-rights issue and to be safe doing so. 839 00:34:01,340 --> 00:34:03,580 It's absolutely a human-rights issue 840 00:34:03,580 --> 00:34:09,380 that no-one can...or is openly gay within the AFL at the moment. 841 00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:09,620 that no-one can...or is openly gay Mm. Yeah. It is. 842 00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:11,980 Mm. Yeah. It is. 843 00:34:11,980 --> 00:34:15,580 However, we also are told by clubs and club leaders 844 00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:19,620 that they do know who their gay team-mates are 845 00:34:19,620 --> 00:34:23,260 and they're just choosing not to make it more widely public. 846 00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:23,500 and they're just choosing But why are they choosing that? 847 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:24,780 But why are they choosing that? 848 00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:27,260 Because they don't feel safe. Right. 849 00:34:27,260 --> 00:34:28,940 They don't feel safe going to the Brownlow 850 00:34:28,940 --> 00:34:32,020 and flagging that this is their male partner. 851 00:34:32,020 --> 00:34:35,540 So, it's not about necessarily having a big press conference 852 00:34:35,540 --> 00:34:39,820 and telegraphing to the world who you are, 853 00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:41,340 but just living your life. 854 00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:43,420 Well, certainly I know that the data suggests 855 00:34:43,420 --> 00:34:49,740 that, you know, people who are having to not live as they wish to, 856 00:34:49,740 --> 00:34:49,980 that, you know, people who are loving who they love, 857 00:34:49,980 --> 00:34:51,860 loving who they love, 858 00:34:51,860 --> 00:34:55,020 certainly do have real disadvantages 859 00:34:55,020 --> 00:34:58,740 in being able to perform at their best in all parts of their life. 860 00:34:58,740 --> 00:35:02,220 So, really aware of how important that is. 861 00:35:02,220 --> 00:35:06,820 My message is I'm sorry that that is your experience 862 00:35:06,820 --> 00:35:08,740 and I hope that it doesn't remain so. 863 00:35:08,740 --> 00:35:08,980 and I hope And if you do want to find a way 864 00:35:08,980 --> 00:35:10,860 And if you do want to find a way 865 00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:15,780 to express to me or others within football 866 00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:18,780 what it is that will make a difference for you, 867 00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:19,020 what it is please, do let us know. 868 00:35:19,020 --> 00:35:20,100 please, do let us know. 869 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:22,300 We want to support you and stand with you. 870 00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:27,260 When we asked every single AFL club 871 00:35:27,260 --> 00:35:31,940 if they could provide current male players who could discuss this issue, 872 00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:32,180 if they could provide current male not one of them accepted. 873 00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:34,420 not one of them accepted. 874 00:35:35,220 --> 00:35:39,980 I've made dozens of calls to men across the AFL about this topic 875 00:35:39,980 --> 00:35:40,220 I've made dozens of calls to men and I often got the impression 876 00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:41,620 and I often got the impression 877 00:35:41,620 --> 00:35:44,260 that they found the conversation kind of awkward. 878 00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:48,380 They'd say, "Oh, this is very sensitive, Louise." 879 00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:50,620 I spoke to current and former players 880 00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:54,900 and, yes, I did meet with one who confirmed that he is gay. 881 00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:55,140 and, yes, I did meet with one Some of the players 882 00:35:55,140 --> 00:35:56,460 Some of the players 883 00:35:56,460 --> 00:36:00,540 were initially very enthusiastic about the conversation, 884 00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:03,300 but then they'd just disappear. 885 00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:05,380 They'd go silent. 886 00:36:06,620 --> 00:36:09,020 Shifting the dial in the AFL 887 00:36:09,020 --> 00:36:09,260 has been the arrival Shifting the dial in the AFL 888 00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:12,500 has been the arrival of the women's game. 889 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:16,460 The women are not silent. 890 00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:16,660 Izzy Huntington was a star player The women are not silent. 891 00:36:16,660 --> 00:36:19,660 Izzy Huntington was a star player 892 00:36:19,660 --> 00:36:21,060 at the Western Bulldogs 893 00:36:21,060 --> 00:36:21,260 at the Western Bulldogs who is now at Greater Western Sydney. 894 00:36:21,260 --> 00:36:23,860 who is now at Greater Western Sydney. 895 00:36:25,540 --> 00:36:28,380 IZZY HUNTINGTON: Part of the uniqueness of the AFLW has been 896 00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:30,860 that real emphasis on inclusion 897 00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:33,700 and an incredibly safe space 898 00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:35,300 for the queer community, 899 00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:35,540 which I guess in sport for the queer community, 900 00:36:35,540 --> 00:36:38,620 which I guess in sport isn't all too common. 901 00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:44,060 For Izzy Huntington, this isn't just a theoretical proposition. 902 00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:48,900 She came out after several years of playing AFLW. 903 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:50,540 You sort of get a lot of comments - 904 00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:53,580 "Oh, women's footy is just flooded with lesbians," 905 00:36:53,580 --> 00:36:53,820 "Oh, women's footy and, you know... 906 00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:56,060 and, you know... 907 00:36:56,060 --> 00:36:57,620 ..it's not. 908 00:36:57,620 --> 00:36:58,900 Society is, really, 909 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,740 it's just that that space 910 00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:02,500 is welcoming enough and inclusive enough 911 00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:05,060 that people feel comfortable to be themselves and come out, 912 00:37:05,060 --> 00:37:06,340 which is really, really beautiful 913 00:37:06,340 --> 00:37:09,980 and I wish that we could replicate in all areas of society. 914 00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:10,220 and I wish that we could replicate Contrast that with the men's game. 915 00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:12,260 Contrast that with the men's game. 916 00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:12,500 Yeah, I think the contrast Contrast that with the men's game. 917 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:14,740 Yeah, I think the contrast is pretty remarkable. 918 00:37:14,740 --> 00:37:18,060 The fact that there aren't any openly gay players in the men's game 919 00:37:18,060 --> 00:37:18,300 The fact that there aren't any or queer players 920 00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:19,940 or queer players 921 00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:22,060 is problematic. 922 00:37:22,060 --> 00:37:22,300 I think it can be a pretty toxic is problematic. 923 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:25,980 I think it can be a pretty toxic sort of culture at some points. 924 00:37:28,460 --> 00:37:33,220 That toxic culture has bled into the women's game. 925 00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:37,060 Izzy Huntington showed Four Corners 926 00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:42,380 some of the homophobic and misogynistic trolling she's received. 927 00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:49,620 I think it shows just how far we've got to go in this space. 928 00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:51,860 As long as we stay silent on these sorts of comments 929 00:37:51,860 --> 00:37:54,220 and homophobic behaviours and homophobic slurs, 930 00:37:54,220 --> 00:37:57,700 whether it be at the grounds or in the locker rooms, 931 00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:59,140 at teams or online, 932 00:37:59,140 --> 00:38:01,100 I think then it... 933 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:03,340 ..yeah, it becomes an accepted thing. 934 00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:09,060 Hawthorn captain, Tilly Lucas-Rodd, 935 00:38:09,060 --> 00:38:11,460 is one of four non-binary players 936 00:38:11,460 --> 00:38:13,940 who've played AFLW. 937 00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:21,860 The club produced a video to tell Tilly's story to the fans. 938 00:38:21,860 --> 00:38:22,140 My name is Tilly, and I'm the Hawthorn AFLW captain. The club produced a video to tell Tilly's story to the fans. 939 00:38:22,140 --> 00:38:24,820 My name is Tilly, and I'm the Hawthorn AFLW captain. 940 00:38:24,820 --> 00:38:25,060 My name is Tilly, For me, the label 'non-binary' 941 00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:26,500 For me, the label 'non-binary' 942 00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:26,740 For me, the label 'non-binary' kind of feels the most comfortable about how I identify 943 00:38:26,740 --> 00:38:28,700 kind of feels the most comfortable about how I identify 944 00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:29,780 in terms of my gender. 945 00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:33,780 The coming-out experience of players 946 00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:37,540 is perhaps the most extraordinary juxtaposition 947 00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:40,700 between the men's and women's game. 948 00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:42,660 One thing for me I was contemplating in that year 949 00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:42,900 One thing for me before I came out as non-binary 950 00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:44,140 before I came out as non-binary 951 00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:48,020 was, "Can I just keep hiding it and live this way and be fine with it?" 952 00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:50,300 But, when you come out, I think everything gets better, 953 00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:50,540 But, when you come out, and that's the same as footy. 954 00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:51,460 and that's the same as footy. 955 00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:55,180 My team and the staff around me, I guess, have fully embraced me 956 00:38:55,180 --> 00:38:58,380 and it, I guess, means that you can live authentically 957 00:38:58,380 --> 00:39:00,020 and it probably makes you a better person. 958 00:39:00,020 --> 00:39:02,140 It made me a better leader and a better footballer 959 00:39:02,140 --> 00:39:04,100 because there's no part of me now that I have to hide 960 00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:06,380 and I can just authentically be Tilly. 961 00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:12,180 By contrast, in the men's game, 962 00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:13,660 Danielle Laidley, 963 00:39:13,660 --> 00:39:13,900 formerly a tough player and coach Danielle Laidley, 964 00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:18,220 formerly a tough player and coach nicknamed the 'Junkyard Dog', 965 00:39:18,220 --> 00:39:18,460 formerly a tough player and coach was brutally outed as trans 966 00:39:18,460 --> 00:39:20,500 was brutally outed as trans 967 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:25,780 by Victoria Police officers who arrested her on drugs charges. 968 00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:32,500 But Danielle Laidley was embraced by her football mates. 969 00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:36,420 She's contracted to star in a documentary. 970 00:39:38,060 --> 00:39:40,620 EDDIE MCGUIRE: The footy world went, "Hang on a second," 971 00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:42,100 you know, "What are you doing to one of ours?" 972 00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:42,340 you know, "What are you doing You know, "How dare you? 973 00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:43,580 You know, "How dare you? 974 00:39:43,580 --> 00:39:43,780 "How dare you?" You know, "How dare you? 975 00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:45,060 "How dare you?" 976 00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:48,380 And Dani came in to see me 977 00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:50,140 after a period of time. 978 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:50,380 after a period of time. And we were talking about doing the documentary, 979 00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:52,300 And we were talking about doing the documentary, 980 00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:55,980 and Dani said to me, "I thought football would kill me. 981 00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:57,260 "It saved my life." 982 00:39:58,380 --> 00:40:00,660 And at that moment I thought, "You know what? 983 00:40:00,660 --> 00:40:00,900 And at that moment I thought, "It is a pretty good game. 984 00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:02,300 "It is a pretty good game. 985 00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:02,540 "Yeah, we have our problems. "It is a pretty good game. 986 00:40:02,540 --> 00:40:05,420 "Yeah, we have our problems. We muck up. 987 00:40:05,420 --> 00:40:08,300 "But there's a genuine concern for people." 988 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:12,340 MATT HALL: I think stigma relating to HIV still exists. 989 00:40:12,340 --> 00:40:15,820 It was Eddie McGuire who reminded me during my research 990 00:40:15,820 --> 00:40:17,740 of the story of Matt Hall. 991 00:40:17,740 --> 00:40:19,860 But when I googled Matt's name 992 00:40:19,860 --> 00:40:24,980 the first mention I found was an obituary from 10 days before. 993 00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:27,980 My heart sunk. 994 00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:33,780 I was really... I was really saddened that Matt had passed. 995 00:40:33,780 --> 00:40:36,460 And I think it's important that he's remembered 996 00:40:36,460 --> 00:40:39,580 in this film that you're doing on this. 997 00:40:39,580 --> 00:40:39,820 in this film And, yeah, he played a major role. 998 00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:42,060 And, yeah, he played a major role. 999 00:40:42,060 --> 00:40:45,500 Yeah. Matt... Matt should not be forgotten. 1000 00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:47,300 I've been living with it for so long... 1001 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:47,540 I've been living with it Matt Hall died unexpectedly 1002 00:40:47,540 --> 00:40:49,780 Matt Hall died unexpectedly 1003 00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:53,380 after 27 years living with HIV 1004 00:40:53,380 --> 00:40:59,140 and working to fight stigma against his disease and his sexuality. 1005 00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:02,340 DARREN RUSSELL: He passed before his time. 1006 00:41:02,340 --> 00:41:04,300 He did an amazing amount of good, 1007 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:09,260 and I'm not sure he was aware how much good he actually did. 1008 00:41:09,260 --> 00:41:10,380 Sorry. 1009 00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:11,660 (CLEARS THROAT) 1010 00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,420 So, yeah, I think he'll be... he'll be missed. 1011 00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:18,860 He's done a lot of...a lot of good work 1012 00:41:18,860 --> 00:41:21,660 for people living with HIV and for gay guys, 1013 00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:21,940 for people living with HIV and for gay guys, and he's done a lot of good work for footy, 1014 00:41:21,940 --> 00:41:23,260 and he's done a lot of good work for footy, 1015 00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:27,020 and now people can play footy if they have HIV 1016 00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:31,620 and they should be able to be gay if they play footy too. 1017 00:41:32,820 --> 00:41:34,420 (WHISTLE BLOWS) 1018 00:41:38,620 --> 00:41:41,340 That's what Michael O'Donnell thinks too, 1019 00:41:41,340 --> 00:41:41,580 That's what Michael O'Donnell so, he's living by example. 1020 00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:44,180 so, he's living by example. 1021 00:41:44,180 --> 00:41:45,860 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 1022 00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:47,900 MICHAEL O'DONNELL: At no point has someone ever said, 1023 00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:48,940 "I wish I was still in the closet." 1024 00:41:48,940 --> 00:41:50,660 That doesn't... It doesn't exist. 1025 00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:55,380 It's... The weight that comes off your shoulders is extraordinary. 1026 00:41:57,700 --> 00:41:59,740 I think it would absolutely make you a better player 1027 00:41:59,740 --> 00:41:59,980 I think it would absolutely because you can focus more on that. 1028 00:41:59,980 --> 00:42:02,300 because you can focus more on that. 1029 00:42:05,740 --> 00:42:07,260 It's a pretty big weight to carry. 1030 00:42:07,260 --> 00:42:10,020 And getting rid of that, I think, would help you soar. 1031 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:11,740 COACH: Good, Em! Good, Em! 1032 00:42:11,740 --> 00:42:11,980 COACH: Good, Em! Good, Lis! Good shepherd! 1033 00:42:11,980 --> 00:42:14,020 Good, Lis! Good shepherd! 1034 00:42:14,020 --> 00:42:15,540 Nice, Jo! 1035 00:42:15,540 --> 00:42:19,860 Michael O'Donnell doesn't believe in coaxing anyone out of the closet. 1036 00:42:19,860 --> 00:42:23,220 He just wants anyone who's thinking about coming out 1037 00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:23,460 He just wants anyone to know it's going to be OK. 1038 00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:26,420 to know it's going to be OK. 1039 00:42:26,420 --> 00:42:26,660 I lost 15 years because to know it's going to be OK. 1040 00:42:26,660 --> 00:42:29,660 I lost 15 years because there was no-one ahead of me. 1041 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:34,580 And if we can have someone come out and stop that happening, 1042 00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:39,580 there will be, you know, a bunch of young, very talented AFL players 1043 00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:42,420 who end up in the top level of the game, 1044 00:42:42,420 --> 00:42:43,900 and that would be awesome 1045 00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:46,380 and that would be a great legacy for someone to leave. 1046 00:42:46,380 --> 00:42:50,140 It will transform lives, it will save lives 1047 00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:50,380 It will transform lives, to have a role model in the AFL, 1048 00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:52,220 to have a role model in the AFL, 1049 00:42:52,220 --> 00:42:52,460 to know that young people to have a role model in the AFL, 1050 00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:54,700 to know that young people who are gay 1051 00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:56,940 don't...are not going to be put into a box. 1052 00:42:56,940 --> 00:42:59,180 They can still be anything, they can still be anyone, 1053 00:42:59,180 --> 00:43:01,220 they can still be an AFL footballer. 1054 00:43:01,220 --> 00:43:02,860 Demolish the closet 1055 00:43:02,860 --> 00:43:05,340 and you'll be a better player and a happier person. 1056 00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:07,020 And what will the Rainbow fans be doing? 1057 00:43:07,020 --> 00:43:07,260 And what will the Rainbow fans We'll be cheering them on. 1058 00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:08,700 We'll be cheering them on. 1059 00:43:09,660 --> 00:43:11,900 COACH: Tristan, you're gonna go to a halfback, alright, mate? 1060 00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:14,980 Try and give us a little bit of run. They're pretty quick. 1061 00:43:14,980 --> 00:43:18,060 Also cheering them on will be some former footy players 1062 00:43:18,060 --> 00:43:21,740 who know what it's like to doubt themselves and to feel alone. 1063 00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:21,980 who know what it's like to (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1064 00:43:21,980 --> 00:43:25,900 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1065 00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:29,420 Please call me. I'll give my number to Louise. 1066 00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:31,100 You can get in touch with her. 1067 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:32,900 You can call me, you can text me, you can email me. 1068 00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:36,180 Whatever the case is, I'll always have your back no matter what. 1069 00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:38,220 Come on. Let's have a go! (INDISTINCT ENCOURAGEMENT) 1070 00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:39,180 Come on! 1071 00:43:39,180 --> 00:43:41,780 BOB MURPHY: You will be fought for. You'll be supported. 1072 00:43:41,780 --> 00:43:44,380 And if someone...if there was a dissenting voice, 1073 00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:47,940 they will be told to shut the fuck up or get out. 1074 00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:52,620 I would think that, a player to stand up in front of his team-mates 1075 00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:52,860 I would think that, a player to and say, "I'm... I'm gay, 1076 00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:55,820 and say, "I'm... I'm gay, 1077 00:43:55,820 --> 00:43:59,860 "and I'm one of you, and I want you to accept me," 1078 00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:00,100 "and I'm one of you, that that would be like a superpower 1079 00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:02,340 that that would be like a superpower 1080 00:44:02,340 --> 00:44:04,780 for your football team and your football club. 1081 00:44:04,780 --> 00:44:09,980 And, please, I want a gay footballer in my football club 1082 00:44:09,980 --> 00:44:12,980 so we can get up and wrap our arms around him 1083 00:44:12,980 --> 00:44:19,220 and say, "You're one of us. We love you. You're brave. 1084 00:44:19,220 --> 00:44:20,980 "You're braver than anyone in this league, 1085 00:44:20,980 --> 00:44:23,980 "so, that makes us braver than everyone else 1086 00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:24,220 "so, that makes us braver "and that will help us win." 1087 00:44:24,220 --> 00:44:27,420 "and that will help us win." 1088 00:44:27,420 --> 00:44:30,300 And THEN we might get change. 1089 00:44:31,260 --> 00:44:33,260 Captions by Red Bee Media 1090 00:44:33,260 --> 00:44:35,460 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation