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(THEME MUSIC PLAYS)

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(CHEERING)

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PATRICIA KARVELAS:
There's a bitter war underway

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PATRICIA KARVELAS:
over the control
of young people's bodies.

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over the control
of young people's bodies.

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over the control
(CHEERING)

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(CHEERING)

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SAPPHIRE: The body that I'm in,
I don't want to be in this anymore.

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ALISON: She was born
with a boy's body,

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ALISON: She was born
and she has a girl's heart and mind.

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and she has a girl's heart and mind.

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What do we want?!
CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans rights!

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Transgender kids are at the centre
of a polarising debate

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over medical intervention
to help deal with their distress.

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The recognised treatment in Australia
includes drugs to pause puberty.

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It's not one session
and you get hormones.

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That's a total misconception
about what we do.

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That's a total misconception
CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans rights!

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CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans rights!

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Opponents warn
CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans rights!

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Opponents warn
medication is dangerous.

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Opponents warn
Do you think there's ever a case

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Do you think there's ever a case

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for an adolescent
to transition medically?

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for an adolescent
My personal opinion

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My personal opinion

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is that it would be good to disallow
My personal opinion

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is that it would be good to disallow
the prescription of puberty blockers

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is that it would be good to disallow
to children with gender dysphoria.

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to children with gender dysphoria.

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Now the conflict
is being played out in hospitals,

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and at the centre
is Westmead Children's in Sydney.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS: We called
Westmead Children's Hospital.

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As empathetic
as they were to our situation,

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As empathetic
they couldn't help us.

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they couldn't help us.

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The waiting lists for gender care
are growing.

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ANNA: I'd have families
emailing, calling, and saying,

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"My child's so distressed,
we need to do something."

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"My child's so distressed,
And it's the kids at risk.

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And it's the kids at risk.

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LAUREN O'BRIEN:
I was bargaining with God.

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I wanted him to come back.

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I was praying.

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CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans lives matter!

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All this against a wave of anti-trans
sentiment sweeping the globe.

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The left-wing gender insanity
being pushed on our children

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The left-wing gender insanity
is an act of child abuse.

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is an act of child abuse.

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(HUBBUB)

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We will not
let you lie to our children.

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Look at the Nazis!
Look at the Nazis!

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Look at the Nazis!
(INDISTINCT YELLING)

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(INDISTINCT YELLING)

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I want to understand

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why medical interventions
for young transgender people

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have become such a battleground.
why medical interventions
for young transgender people

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have become such a battleground.

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Is it right to provide
puberty blockers and hormones?

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Is it right to provide
puberty blockers and hormones?
Is enough caution being exercised?

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Is enough caution being exercised?

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And is this model the lifesaver
its supporters say it is?

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I'm Brock Willcocks,

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I'm a 14-year-old trans girl,

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and I live
in the western part of Sydney.

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I started realising that I was
different mainly in primary school.

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I always, like, imagined myself

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having long hair and putting on
make-up and, like, wearing dresses,

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and I would always be like,
"Oh, I wish I was a girl."

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But I would be disappointed
to find out,

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"Oh, you're a boy.
You have to stay like this."

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"Oh, you're a boy.
(PERFORMS INDISTINCTLY)

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(PERFORMS INDISTINCTLY)

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Stop! (GIGGLES)

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RENEE WILLCOCKS: I suppose the first
thing that we noticed in preschool,

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I'd come and pick her up and
she'd be a princess and dressed up

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and pushing a pram
and wearing the fake high heels
I'd come and pick her up and
she'd be a princess and dressed up

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and pushing a pram
and wearing the fake high heels

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and pushing a pram
and wearing the fake high heels
and not really your kind of
typical roughhouse boy.

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and not really your kind of
typical roughhouse boy.

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As puberty kicked in,

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the flamboyant, confident kid
As puberty kicked in,

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the flamboyant, confident kid
became withdrawn and depressed.

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BROCK WILLCOCKS: I tried going
to therapy to try and explain this

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and try to be like,
"Why do I feel like this?"

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It's not about going to therapy
to fix it.

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How do you know
you weren't influenced?

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I wasn't influenced
by a trans person.

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I did not know any trans person
growing up at all.

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Not one trans person. Not even
anyone on any sort of social media.

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Brock kept it to herself.

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She knew that her mum was sceptical
about transgender issues.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS: I was hearing all
these different things in the media,

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and when the debate came up about,
you know, a point, you know...

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and when the debate came up about,
..with the pronouns,

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..with the pronouns,

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and I...

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..I kind of...yeah,
and I...

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..I kind of...yeah,
I said, you know,

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"Why should we be catering to these
people if they're identifying?

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"If I can see biologically
they're a male,

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"I'm going to say
that they're a male."

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In Year 8 Brock found the courage to
tell her mum through a text message.

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She opened my bedroom door

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and I just saw that she was in tears

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and she started
and I just saw that she was in tears

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and she started
just apologising to me.

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And the reason
she was apologising to me

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was because in the past

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she wasn't the most accepting person
of being trans.

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She just was crying to me

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and apologising
for everything that she had said,

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and apologising
just everything and anything.

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just everything and anything.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS:
It was the first time

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that I'd really seen Brock show
what she's been going through.

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And it was just so hard to see

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because it was just such raw emotion

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and she just hates her body
because it was just such raw emotion

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and she just hates her body
and can't stand to look at herself.

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I was gonna try and get some
and bring some home for you to try.

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No.
You wouldn't even try it?

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Renee was determined
to support Brock,

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but she struggled to find help.

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Do you want me to do
different flavours?

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We called Westmead Children's
Hospital, they couldn't help us.

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We called Westmead Children's
So, even though Brock is a child,

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So, even though Brock is a child,

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they do draw a line in the sand for
So, even though Brock is a child,

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they do draw a line in the sand for
certain developmental milestones.

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In Brock's case, it was because
Brock's voice had already broken.

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In Brock's case, it was because
Well, do you want to...

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Well, do you want to...

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Renee turned to another
NSW Health-run clinic,

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Renee turned to another
Maple Leaf House in Newcastle.

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Maple Leaf House in Newcastle.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS:
Maple Leaf House in Newcastle.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS:
When I spoke to them on the phone

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and they said
that they could help me

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despite the milestone
that Brock had already achieved,

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I broke down and cried,
it was such a relief.

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This feels wrong.
It's, like, going under my nails.

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A psychiatrist diagnosed Brock
with gender dysphoria.

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Gender dysphoria refers to the
psychological distress experienced

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by those whose gender identity
doesn't match their biological sex.

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Brock started treatment
known as gender-affirming care,

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which is an established
medical practice across Australia.

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It starts
with a multidisciplinary assessment

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and can progress
to medical intervention.

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Brock was prescribed puberty blockers

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to stop her developing
as a young man.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS: Obviously you
wouldn't want to rush into treatment

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when you're just finding out
that your child is transgender.

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For us, it made sense.

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The fact that Brock had been going
to a psychologist for quite a while

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was reassuring to know that, you
know, it's not a phase, so to speak.

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But when you're, you know, at that
age of 13, development's fast.

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Do you want to spray them
with olive oil or something?

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Doesn't say that in the TikTok.

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(LAUGHS)
Are we following a TikTok video?

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Yeah.
(LAUGHS)

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That's where I got the recipe from.
Oh, my gosh.

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The Maple Leaf clinicians
told Brock's family

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The Maple Leaf clinicians
the blocking effects are reversible,

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the blocking effects are reversible,

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but they warned
the blocking effects are reversible,

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but they warned
about the potential side effects,

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which can include
reduced bone density.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS:
The fact that Brock is now 14

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and won't have to be on blockers
for a lengthy period of time,

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I suppose that relieves
a lot of concern that we had.

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But it's definitely something
that we've had to weigh up,

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and we're OK with that,
we're OK with that risk.

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These are just
all my rings and my earrings.

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Brock will soon have her third
injection of puberty blockers.

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Brock will soon have her third
She says she is relieved

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She says she is relieved

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she's stopped developing into a body
that she doesn't identify with.

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This jacket -
love, love, love this jacket.

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She no longer hides
the clothes she wants to wear.

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And it's just makes you feel
rich and fashionable. (CHUCKLES)

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(HUBBUB)

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TEACHER: When I say go,
(HUBBUB)

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TEACHER: When I say go,
I want everyone to act like

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TEACHER: When I say go,
you are an angry customer in a shop.

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you are an angry customer in a shop.

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Go.

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Thank you...
Why is the coffee cold?!

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Thank you...
I 'm really into theatre and drama.

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I 'm really into theatre and drama.

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Do any of you work here?
My coffee is cold.

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You get to pretend
to be someone else,

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which is kind of almost like
what I've been doing all my life.

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(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)
Thank you!

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(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)
(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)

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(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)

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TEACHER:
Ladies and gentlemen, Brock!

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TEACHER:
(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)

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(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)

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BROCK WILLCOCKS: By November

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I should hopefully
be starting hormones,

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which is really something
that I feel I need.

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which is really something
Not want - I feel I need.

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Not want - I feel I need.

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You have five minutes
Not want - I feel I need.

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You have five minutes
to prepare your play.

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Cross-sex hormones are often the
next stage of gender-affirming care.

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Cross-sex hormones are often the
Daily pills or patches of oestrogen

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Daily pills or patches of oestrogen

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would mean that Brock would slowly
start looking more feminine

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would mean that Brock would slowly
and develop breasts and hips.

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and develop breasts and hips.

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The physical changes from
and develop breasts and hips.

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The physical changes from
cross-sex hormones are irreversible.

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RENEE WILLCOCKS: The choice was

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allow Brock to live a life
in true authenticity,

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potentially very happy life

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and hopefully a long life.

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When you weigh the prospect up,
and what's the alternative?

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When you weigh the prospect up,
Potentially not having a child.

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Potentially not having a child.

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Brock was literally
planning her death.

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What choice do we have?

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BROCK WILLCOCKS: I didn't choose
to be born in this body

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and then want to be born in another.

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Like, that's not a choice
that I just made.

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Like, I didn't wake up one day
and be like, "Yeah, I'm trans."

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Like, I didn't wake up one day
No.

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No.

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It was years of dysphoria,
self-hate...

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..that it took me to find out,
"You're not in the right body."

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Referrals to Australia's seven
publicly funded gender services

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are ballooning.

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Since it first opened 10 years ago

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Melbourne's Royal Children's Hospital
has had more than 3,300 referrals.

236
00:10:46,820 --> 00:10:50,740
62 % of those
were females assigned at birth.

237
00:10:50,740 --> 00:10:50,980
62 % of those
Last year they had 1,095 patients -

238
00:10:50,980 --> 00:10:53,900
Last year they had 1,095 patients -

239
00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:55,540
seven times as many

240
00:10:55,540 --> 00:10:59,300
as the Westmead Children's Hospital
gender service in Sydney.

241
00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:01,900
Wait lists are long.

242
00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:03,860
Latest figures show
the gender service

243
00:11:03,860 --> 00:11:04,100
Latest figures show
at Queensland Children's Hospital

244
00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:05,580
at Queensland Children's Hospital

245
00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:05,820
has more than 600 patients
at Queensland Children's Hospital

246
00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:09,740
has more than 600 patients
waiting for a first appointment.

247
00:11:19,460 --> 00:11:22,420
A feud over how to treat kids
with gender issues

248
00:11:22,420 --> 00:11:26,980
is playing out at Westmead
Children's Hospital in Sydney's west.

249
00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:31,380
It's a feud the hospital hierarchy
has tried to keep under wraps,

250
00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:31,620
It's a feud the hospital hierarchy
but a few former Westmead staff

251
00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:34,220
but a few former Westmead staff

252
00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:36,940
have been brave enough
to help us tell this story.

253
00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:37,220
They've told us
there are deep divisions
have been brave enough
to help us tell this story.

254
00:11:37,220 --> 00:11:40,060
They've told us
there are deep divisions

255
00:11:40,060 --> 00:11:42,780
over how to help kids
with gender distress.

256
00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:55,100
ASHLEY: When I started puberty,
I got really depressed.

257
00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:55,340
I was super anxious about myself,
ASHLEY: When I started puberty,
I got really depressed.

258
00:11:55,340 --> 00:12:00,260
I was super anxious about myself,

259
00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:00,460
I was super anxious about myself,
how I was looked at by people.

260
00:12:00,460 --> 00:12:05,060
how I was looked at by people.

261
00:12:05,060 --> 00:12:10,980
It was a really hard time for me.

262
00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:14,380
LANNEN DONNELLY: Westmead Hospital
saw Ashley urgently

263
00:12:14,380 --> 00:12:14,660
and prioritised consultation with
him because he was self-harming.
LANNEN DONNELLY: Westmead Hospital
saw Ashley urgently

264
00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:18,740
and prioritised consultation with
him because he was self-harming.

265
00:12:18,740 --> 00:12:21,460
His mental health
had deteriorated rapidly.

266
00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:28,620
Ashley was prescribed
puberty blockers in 2015.

267
00:12:28,620 --> 00:12:28,860
Ashley was prescribed
His mother agreed

268
00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:30,100
His mother agreed

269
00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:33,540
that he could be part of
emerging research on gender distress

270
00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:36,020
conducted by clinicians
at the hospital.

271
00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:39,020
It was this research
that laid the foundation

272
00:12:39,020 --> 00:12:45,620
for a series of peer-reviewed papers
published between 2021 and 2023.

273
00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:49,940
Recent frontline staff at
the gender service were not involved.

274
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:52,900
It was really important to me

275
00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:56,900
that we were able to share
this experience with researchers

276
00:12:56,900 --> 00:13:00,740
to be able to help
with the way forward.

277
00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:00,980
to be able to help
Let's show that, you know,

278
00:13:00,980 --> 00:13:02,580
Let's show that, you know,

279
00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:02,820
trans kids are a natural, normal
Let's show that, you know,

280
00:13:02,820 --> 00:13:06,620
trans kids are a natural, normal
part of every society on earth.

281
00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:13,700
Ashley's mum, Lannen, never
anticipated how events would unfold.

282
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:13,940
Ashley's mum, Lannen, never
The Westmead research papers

283
00:13:13,940 --> 00:13:15,220
The Westmead research papers

284
00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:19,900
would be weaponised by outside
opponents to gender-affirming care.

285
00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:25,700
In 2021 Westmead researchers
published a peer-reviewed report

286
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:29,700
examining the clinical
characteristics of 79 young people

287
00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:29,940
seeking help at the gender service.
characteristics of 79 young people

288
00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:32,380
seeking help at the gender service.

289
00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:32,620
seeking help at the gender service.
amongst many of those reviewed.

290
00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:37,380
They pointed to complex family trauma
amongst many of those reviewed.

291
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:40,460
"High rates
of adverse childhood experiences,"

292
00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:43,620
including family conflict,
parental mental illness

293
00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:46,940
and loss of important figures
via separation.

294
00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:50,460
A history of maltreatment
"was also common."

295
00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:53,940
They stopped short
of finding a causal link.

296
00:13:53,940 --> 00:13:58,060
They argued going straight to the
gender-affirming model is dangerous

297
00:13:58,060 --> 00:14:01,660
and said, "a trauma-informed model
of mental-health care"

298
00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:05,180
should be included
in all gender-care clinics.

299
00:14:05,180 --> 00:14:08,300
They said, "Clinicians -
including ourselves -

300
00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:08,540
"are coming under increasing pressure
including ourselves -

301
00:14:08,540 --> 00:14:10,180
"are coming under increasing pressure

302
00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:13,140
"to compromise
their own ethical standards

303
00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:16,940
"by engaging
in a tick-the-box treatment process."

304
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:23,060
Genetic pathologist Dr Anja Ravine

305
00:14:23,060 --> 00:14:25,740
was watching on
from another part of the hospital.

306
00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:25,980
was watching on
As a transgender woman herself,

307
00:14:25,980 --> 00:14:28,060
As a transgender woman herself,

308
00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:29,500
she was curious about the research

309
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,780
showing family trauma
amongst young transgender people.

310
00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:38,340
ANJA RAVINE: The implicit messaging
that I read in this,

311
00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:40,220
which actually wasn't said directly

312
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:44,300
but it was implicitly there
and quite powerful,

313
00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:46,900
is that these children -

314
00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:48,500
the trans-ness and the presentation

315
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:48,700
with associated distress -
the trans-ness and the presentation

316
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:51,260
with associated distress -

317
00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:53,980
is really something that's emerged

318
00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:55,260
out of a background

319
00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:55,460
out of a background
of early childhood traumas,

320
00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:58,900
of early childhood traumas,

321
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,500
poor parenting practices,

322
00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:05,860
associated impaired
parent-child attachment patterns.

323
00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:09,540
These papers have all the badges
that you'd expect,

324
00:15:09,540 --> 00:15:09,780
These papers have all the badges
you know, they're credentialed,

325
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:11,260
you know, they're credentialed,

326
00:15:11,260 --> 00:15:14,300
and people
look to those credentials.

327
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:17,020
So, how are you feeling about...

328
00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:20,700
Ashley's mum, Lannen,
read it as parent-blaming.

329
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,580
LANNEN DONNELLY: The report
from Westmead seemed to allude

330
00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:27,940
to kids are trans
BECAUSE of their depression,

331
00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:33,060
kids are trans
BECAUSE of dysfunction in the home.

332
00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:36,420
That was horrific to read, for me,

333
00:15:36,420 --> 00:15:41,540
because we had dysfunction in
the home and Ashley had depression

334
00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:47,900
BECAUSE we weren't getting help
with him being trans.

335
00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:53,620
TRAIN ANNOUNCEMENT:
This train will stop at Lidcombe.

336
00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:53,860
TRAIN ANNOUNCEMENT:
In late 2022

337
00:15:53,860 --> 00:15:55,660
In late 2022

338
00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:57,860
Anna started
as a clinical psychologist

339
00:15:57,860 --> 00:16:01,100
at the Westmead Children's
gender service.

340
00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:03,340
It was early in her clinical career,

341
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:07,340
and she was committed to helping
young people who were in distress.

342
00:16:07,340 --> 00:16:07,580
and she was committed to helping
ANNA: I was very passionate

343
00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:09,460
ANNA: I was very passionate

344
00:16:09,460 --> 00:16:12,060
about helping these trans youth

345
00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:12,260
that have, you know,
about helping these trans youth

346
00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:14,100
that have, you know,

347
00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:19,620
one of the highest rates
of suicidality and difficulties,

348
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:19,860
one of the highest rates
of suicidality and difficulties,
and, you know, social stigma still,

349
00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:22,580
and, you know, social stigma still,

350
00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:24,060
and difficulties at school.

351
00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:28,260
And I wanted to be able
to provide ongoing support

352
00:16:28,260 --> 00:16:31,700
where I could really hear them,
validate them

353
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:31,940
where I could really hear them,
and help them through their journey.

354
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,580
and help them through their journey.

355
00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:40,140
TRAIN ANNOUNCEMENT:
This station is Westmead.

356
00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:43,220
But she was finding it hard
to do her job.

357
00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:46,020
ANNA: I didn't feel supported.

358
00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:50,820
I felt that the environment
was very difficult.

359
00:16:50,820 --> 00:16:52,980
I think that, you know,
one of the main issues

360
00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:56,900
was the long wait list,
the lack of staff.

361
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:59,500
Our model of care
was being developed

362
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:04,100
to become a better,
improved model of care.

363
00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:04,340
to become a better,
But it was never finalised,

364
00:17:04,340 --> 00:17:05,980
But it was never finalised,

365
00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:09,500
it was never...
no action was ever taken with that.

366
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:15,860
We were told that we had received
funding for more staff,

367
00:17:15,860 --> 00:17:16,100
We were told that we had received
which would've been fantastic,

368
00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:17,460
which would've been fantastic,

369
00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:22,140
but, while I was there,
there was nothing, no change,

370
00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:22,380
but, while I was there,
same huge wait list.

371
00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:25,620
same huge wait list.

372
00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:28,460
(MUSIC, CHATTER)

373
00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:29,460
Ah!

374
00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:32,740
SONG: # It was a clear black night
A clear white moon

375
00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:32,980
SONG: # It was a clear black night
Yeah!

376
00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:33,980
Yeah!

377
00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:35,140
# Tryin' to consume... #

378
00:17:35,140 --> 00:17:38,620
Noah O'Brien
was on that waiting list.

379
00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:47,460
Noah was 14 when he first told
his mother he identified as a boy.

380
00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:49,900
LAUREN O'BRIEN: We kind of thought

381
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,140
that maybe it was a friend influence
or someone online

382
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:53,380
that maybe it was a friend influence
or something like that.

383
00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:55,300
or something like that.

384
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:55,500
But the longer that time went on
or something like that.

385
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:56,940
But the longer that time went on

386
00:17:56,940 --> 00:18:01,740
we just saw, no, it was definitely
just him, who he was.

387
00:18:03,220 --> 00:18:08,300
Noah asked to go to the GP
to find out about puberty blockers.

388
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:12,860
LAUREN O'BRIEN: We didn't realise
at that point that he was already

389
00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:17,180
going through the beginnings
of the eating disorder.

390
00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:20,340
So, he was taking that matter
into his own hands

391
00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:20,580
So, he was taking that matter
to stop his own periods

392
00:18:20,580 --> 00:18:23,220
to stop his own periods

393
00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:25,900
and stop his breast growth

394
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:27,220
through not eating.

395
00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:33,740
We can't know for sure what exactly
caused Noah's eating disorder,

396
00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:35,060
but research has shown

397
00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:35,300
that eating disorders are often
but research has shown

398
00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:39,260
that eating disorders are often
associated with gender dysphoria.

399
00:18:39,260 --> 00:18:39,500
that eating disorders are often
Noah's food refusal got worse

400
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:41,340
Noah's food refusal got worse

401
00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:44,740
and he ended up
at Westmead Children's Hospital.

402
00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:44,980
and he ended up
He was discharged the next day.

403
00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:47,620
He was discharged the next day.

404
00:18:48,580 --> 00:18:51,260
LAUREN O'BRIEN: They thought
it was not an eating disorder,

405
00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:51,500
LAUREN O'BRIEN: They thought
that perhaps it was gender-related,

406
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:53,740
that perhaps it was gender-related,

407
00:18:53,740 --> 00:18:58,060
and that they had put
in his discharge papers

408
00:18:58,060 --> 00:19:02,660
that our GP needed to make
a referral for the gender centre.

409
00:19:04,620 --> 00:19:08,180
The GP sent the referral
last October.

410
00:19:09,140 --> 00:19:13,820
Noah's family didn't know he would be
pushed way down the waiting list

411
00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:16,060
at the Westmead Children's
gender service

412
00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:20,660
because it deprioritises children
who are well-advanced into puberty.

413
00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:20,900
because it deprioritises children
An insider has told Four Corners

414
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,180
An insider has told Four Corners

415
00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:26,980
it could have been a year
before Noah was seen.

416
00:19:26,980 --> 00:19:31,260
ROSE MARSH: Her child had a problem,
it needed to be fixed,

417
00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:31,500
ROSE MARSH: Her child had a problem,
you know, so, Lauren rang places,

418
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:35,180
you know, so, Lauren rang places,

419
00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:35,380
went to the doctors,
you know, so, Lauren rang places,

420
00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:37,620
went to the doctors,

421
00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:41,300
tried everywhere to get help,

422
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:41,540
tried everywhere to get help,
but it was just like doors
were closing in her face, you know?

423
00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:45,340
but it was just like doors
were closing in her face, you know?

424
00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:45,580
but it was just like doors
There was just no...

425
00:19:45,580 --> 00:19:46,860
There was just no...

426
00:19:46,860 --> 00:19:51,740
Nobody was responding
to her call for help.

427
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:55,940
As Noah struggled
with gender issues,

428
00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:59,540
his eating disorder also got worse.

429
00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:06,380
He was readmitted
to Westmead Children's Hospital

430
00:20:06,380 --> 00:20:06,620
He was readmitted
and treated for anorexia.

431
00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:08,460
and treated for anorexia.

432
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:08,700
There was still
and treated for anorexia.

433
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:11,500
There was still
no gender-focused care for Noah

434
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:11,740
There was still
apart from this...

435
00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:13,260
apart from this...

436
00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:13,500
So, this is the bag
that was given to Noah
apart from this...

437
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:16,500
So, this is the bag
that was given to Noah

438
00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:16,740
when he was in hospital,
that was given to Noah

439
00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:18,300
when he was in hospital,

440
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:22,860
and it had some print-outs
from the internet,

441
00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:26,220
medical guidelines
for gender diverse and treatments,

442
00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:29,740
there's stuff
about gender-diverse musicians,

443
00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:29,980
some stickers,
about gender-diverse musicians,

444
00:20:29,980 --> 00:20:32,260
some stickers,

445
00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:34,740
a place in Blacktown
that you can go to,

446
00:20:34,740 --> 00:20:36,220
legal services

447
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:38,380
and a few little things in here,

448
00:20:38,380 --> 00:20:38,620
and a few little things in here,
but nothing
that linked to the hospital,

449
00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:42,140
but nothing
that linked to the hospital,

450
00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:44,940
nothing that gave us
any sort of direction

451
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:45,180
nothing that gave us
of where to go next.

452
00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:47,420
of where to go next.

453
00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:50,180
And, again, it's paper,

454
00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:52,900
it's not a person saying,

455
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:57,020
"This is what we're going to do
to help. We're here with you."

456
00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:03,660
Four Corners has learnt that it was a
social worker from the gender service

457
00:21:03,660 --> 00:21:03,900
Four Corners has learnt that it was a
who visited Noah.

458
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:05,460
who visited Noah.

459
00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:09,740
The social worker
later wrote an email saying this:

460
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:23,540
But that discussion didn't go ahead.

461
00:21:23,540 --> 00:21:27,020
A senior staff member
from outside the gender service

462
00:21:27,020 --> 00:21:30,540
told the social worker
that she needed to:

463
00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:41,420
Noah was effectively denied
specialist gender support.

464
00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:44,780
ROSE MARSH:
It was very, very confusing.

465
00:21:44,780 --> 00:21:48,060
It was almost like
they walked in and said,

466
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:48,300
It was almost like
"OK, this is a gender issue.

467
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:50,140
"OK, this is a gender issue.

468
00:21:50,140 --> 00:21:51,900
"Here, take this bag

469
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:55,580
"and go research and go from there."

470
00:21:56,820 --> 00:22:00,420
After nearly four weeks
in the eating-disorder unit

471
00:22:00,420 --> 00:22:01,900
Noah was sent home.

472
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:05,900
His discharge summary included
'gender dysphoria'.

473
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:06,140
His discharge summary included
He was still on the waiting list.

474
00:22:06,140 --> 00:22:09,420
He was still on the waiting list.

475
00:22:09,420 --> 00:22:13,940
ROSE MARSH: I think Noah
should have at least seen somebody

476
00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:16,900
that could help him
with his gender issues

477
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:21,780
and, you know,
sort of set a course of action

478
00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:24,900
that could be followed up
and monitored,

479
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:25,140
that could be followed up
but there was just nothing.

480
00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:27,380
but there was just nothing.

481
00:22:28,180 --> 00:22:31,660
This year's summer holidays
were drawing to a close,

482
00:22:31,660 --> 00:22:35,380
and Noah was anxious
about returning to school.

483
00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:38,940
He would be wearing a boy's uniform
for the first time.

484
00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:42,580
I think he was just
worried about how people would react

485
00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:42,820
I think he was just
to him presenting at school as Noah.

486
00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:45,580
to him presenting at school as Noah.

487
00:22:45,580 --> 00:22:49,140
I think he felt
like they would see him

488
00:22:49,140 --> 00:22:53,460
as the person that had
been in their class before as Lily

489
00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:55,980
and that somebody
might say something

490
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:58,780
or that they might think
he's a fraud.

491
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:04,460
And then the unthinkable happened.

492
00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:08,700
ROSE MARSH: About a quarter past 12

493
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:10,340
the phone rang, you know,

494
00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:12,460
and I thought, "Oh, it's Lauren,"

495
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:13,900
you know, like, I...

496
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:16,460
So, I picked it up and went,
"Hello?"

497
00:23:16,460 --> 00:23:19,140
you know, sort of just,
"What are you still doing awake?"

498
00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:23,460
And that's when she said,
"It's Noah."

499
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:23,700
And that's when she said,
My husband gave him CPR.

500
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:27,380
My husband gave him CPR.

501
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:29,020
And the ambulance and the police

502
00:23:29,020 --> 00:23:31,940
arrived about four minutes
after we called them.

503
00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:39,860
And they took him
to Westmead Hospital,

504
00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:42,580
where he stayed alive
until six in the morning.

505
00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:42,820
where he stayed alive
That was from about 11 o'clock.

506
00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:44,500
That was from about 11 o'clock.

507
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,780
So, we got seven hours
to actually say goodbye.

508
00:23:48,740 --> 00:23:54,060
I think Noah
didn't want to be a girl,

509
00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:58,580
but I feel like
he didn't get any help or support

510
00:23:58,580 --> 00:24:02,780
in making that transition
to become a male.

511
00:24:02,780 --> 00:24:08,940
I mean, we did all we could, Lauren
did more than anyone ever could,

512
00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:15,220
but we just didn't get any help
from anywhere that could help us.

513
00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:19,980
If there had been doctors
from the gender service

514
00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:20,220
If there had been doctors
being able to see Noah,

515
00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:21,460
being able to see Noah,

516
00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:22,980
do you think
that would've made a difference?

517
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:25,060
I mean, we can't know...
Definitely.

518
00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:27,580
I think if they
had have been speaking to him

519
00:24:27,580 --> 00:24:29,340
and found out what he needed,

520
00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:32,780
I think it definitely
would've changed things.

521
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,900
It wasn't long
before news of Noah's death

522
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,380
reached the frontline clinicians
at the gender service.

523
00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:53,620
ANNA: I think the core team
was incredibly distressed

524
00:24:53,620 --> 00:24:55,260
and felt completely helpless.

525
00:24:55,260 --> 00:24:55,500
You know, I can't speak for them,
and felt completely helpless.

526
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:58,140
You know, I can't speak for them,
but I know I felt helpless,

527
00:24:58,140 --> 00:25:02,100
and I felt
just extreme angst and sadness

528
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:02,380
and I felt
just extreme angst and sadness
for this family that, you know,
were on this wait list.

529
00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:06,420
for this family that, you know,
were on this wait list.

530
00:25:06,420 --> 00:25:10,220
And it just kind of showed
that, yes, it happens,

531
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:13,260
you know,
the suicidal ideation is high

532
00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:17,500
and sometimes
it does eventuate into suicide.

533
00:25:18,460 --> 00:25:20,300
In the wake of Noah's death,

534
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,100
a paediatrician at the gender service

535
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:24,300
asked Westmead Children's Hospital

536
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:27,100
to make changes
to help high-risk patients,

537
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:27,340
to make changes
but she saw no change.

538
00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:30,500
but she saw no change.

539
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,540
ANNA: I think if that had happened

540
00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:32,780
and there'd been a great change
ANNA: I think if that had happened

541
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:37,300
and there'd been a great change
in the service for the better

542
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:39,980
and we were able to help more people
in a more timely manner,

543
00:25:39,980 --> 00:25:42,980
that would've been great,
you know, some silver lining,

544
00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:43,220
that would've been great,
but nothing changed.

545
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:44,700
but nothing changed.

546
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:44,940
So, we were just left
but nothing changed.

547
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:48,060
So, we were just left
feeling sad and helpless

548
00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:54,100
and not able to make any positive
changes going forward, really.

549
00:25:56,140 --> 00:25:58,060
Westmead Children's Hospital

550
00:25:58,060 --> 00:25:59,660
issued a statement, offering:

551
00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:02,820
"Our sincere condolences
to Noah's family.

552
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:05,980
"Due to patient privacy
and confidentiality,

553
00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:06,220
"Due to patient privacy
"Sydney Children's Hospitals Network

554
00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:08,100
"Sydney Children's Hospitals Network

555
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:10,620
"is unable
to provide further information

556
00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:12,980
"about his specific care."

557
00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:18,660
For months they've declined to answer

558
00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:21,660
specific questions
about the gender service.

559
00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:21,940
Four Corners has obtained
Freedom of Information documents
specific questions
about the gender service.

560
00:26:21,940 --> 00:26:25,900
Four Corners has obtained
Freedom of Information documents

561
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:28,540
which show Westmead Children's
gender service

562
00:26:28,540 --> 00:26:28,780
is taking on very few new patients.
gender service

563
00:26:28,780 --> 00:26:32,020
is taking on very few new patients.

564
00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:32,260
is taking on very few new patients.
Up to June this year it's taken on
just three compared to 88 last year.

565
00:26:32,260 --> 00:26:37,660
Up to June this year it's taken on
just three compared to 88 last year.

566
00:26:37,660 --> 00:26:40,180
The most recent data shows
the Westmead service

567
00:26:40,180 --> 00:26:40,420
The most recent data shows
had 145 active patients last year.

568
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:44,140
had 145 active patients last year.

569
00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:44,340
Westmead Children's Hospital says it:
had 145 active patients last year.

570
00:26:44,340 --> 00:26:47,300
Westmead Children's Hospital says it:

571
00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:02,780
Westmead's latest research paper
was published in February this year,

572
00:27:02,780 --> 00:27:05,900
and this one would have
the greatest impact.

573
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:08,060
The paper highlighted
increasing rates

574
00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:10,940
of what's known
as 'rapid-onset gender dysphoria',

575
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:15,020
particularly amongst
a small subset of adolescent girls.

576
00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:15,260
particularly amongst
a small subset of adolescent girls.
It's a contested concept.

577
00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:17,180
It's a contested concept.

578
00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:22,460
The paper speculates it's caused
by "some evolving social process."

579
00:27:23,860 --> 00:27:27,020
If a young person has been exposed

580
00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:31,620
to the ubiquitous, media onslaught

581
00:27:31,620 --> 00:27:31,860
to the ubiquitous, media onslaught
on both social media
and the internet

582
00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:34,700
on both social media
and the internet

583
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:34,940
on both social media
and also, you know, in peer groups

584
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:37,260
and also, you know, in peer groups

585
00:27:37,260 --> 00:27:40,860
at school, in rainbow clubs
and so on,

586
00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:43,700
there are the vulnerable
young people

587
00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:48,140
who will be drawn in to that sphere

588
00:27:48,140 --> 00:27:51,740
of thinking
that they're transgender.

589
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:57,060
Psychologist Dianna Kenny
is an ambassador for Binary,

590
00:27:57,060 --> 00:28:01,580
a lobby group which campaigns
against so-called 'gender ideology'.

591
00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:05,660
She treats adolescents with gender
distress in her clinical practice.

592
00:28:06,620 --> 00:28:11,100
The approach is essentially
a psychotherapeutic approach

593
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:15,300
that helps the young person
and his or her family

594
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:19,580
understand
all of the complex dynamics

595
00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:20,980
that have resulted

596
00:28:20,980 --> 00:28:25,100
in the young person
experiencing gender dysphoria.

597
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:25,340
in the young person
It is not conversion therapy.

598
00:28:25,340 --> 00:28:28,820
It is not conversion therapy.

599
00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:32,220
It provides a safe exploratory space

600
00:28:32,220 --> 00:28:37,020
for children to look at themselves

601
00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:41,740
and to gain a greater understanding.

602
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:45,540
One of the most
controversial findings

603
00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:47,180
in the latest Westmead research

604
00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:50,020
relates to the concept of desistance,

605
00:28:50,020 --> 00:28:50,220
and the rate of desistance
relates to the concept of desistance,

606
00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:52,180
and the rate of desistance

607
00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:52,420
and the rate of desistance
against gender-affirming care.

608
00:28:52,420 --> 00:28:56,900
is often used as an argument
against gender-affirming care.

609
00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:00,220
The Westmead researchers
define desistance

610
00:29:00,220 --> 00:29:04,020
as the "disappearance
of gender-related distress"

611
00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:06,540
that brought the young person
to the clinic.

612
00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:08,500
They reported that gender distress

613
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:13,300
eventually disappeared
for 22% of those they studied.

614
00:29:15,620 --> 00:29:18,340
For the general public -
"OK, the child's desisted...

615
00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:18,580
"OK, they're no longer trans"
For the general public -
"OK, the child's desisted...

616
00:29:18,580 --> 00:29:20,340
"OK, they're no longer trans"

617
00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:22,940
would be what you would think,
right?

618
00:29:24,380 --> 00:29:25,860
But, when you read the papers,

619
00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:26,100
there's actually
But, when you read the papers,

620
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:28,780
there's actually
a variety of definitions.

621
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:33,460
When you look carefully
at where that 22% comes from,

622
00:29:33,460 --> 00:29:36,260
it includes children
who were originally assessed

623
00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:39,340
and considered
not to meet the diagnostic criteria,

624
00:29:39,340 --> 00:29:42,220
so, they were never eligible
for referral

625
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:45,700
for consideration
of pubertal blockade.

626
00:29:46,860 --> 00:29:50,740
And that was the majority of them,
and there were others as well.

627
00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:51,020
This particular way this data's
been presented is an outlier.
And that was the majority of them,
and there were others as well.

628
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:56,740
This particular way this data's
been presented is an outlier.

629
00:29:56,740 --> 00:29:58,980
Actually, if you go to the data
that's in the paper,

630
00:29:58,980 --> 00:29:59,260
Actually, if you go to the data
that's in the paper,
it's entirely consistent
with the opposite conclusion -

631
00:29:59,260 --> 00:30:02,060
it's entirely consistent
with the opposite conclusion -

632
00:30:02,060 --> 00:30:02,300
it's entirely consistent
that it's very rare

633
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:03,700
that it's very rare

634
00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:05,500
for actual young people

635
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:05,740
to completely decide to go back
for actual young people

636
00:30:05,740 --> 00:30:09,340
to completely decide to go back
to the gender assigned at birth.

637
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:15,540
The report also stated
that there was a 9.1% desistance rate

638
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:19,180
amongst those who were diagnosed
with gender dysphoria.

639
00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:19,420
The report concluded:
amongst those who were diagnosed
with gender dysphoria.

640
00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:22,140
The report concluded:

641
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:38,500
When that last Westmead research was
published, what was your reaction?

642
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:45,100
The researchers had taken the effort
to really convey the issues at hand.

643
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:47,420
It became clear to me
that they really wanted to try

644
00:30:47,420 --> 00:30:52,020
and assist Australia
to come to terms with this issue

645
00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:52,260
and assist Australia
to come to terms with this issue
by explaining everything.

646
00:30:52,260 --> 00:30:54,620
by explaining everything.

647
00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:57,460
And that made me happy

648
00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:01,740
because I really wished that
we would be able to talk about this

649
00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:04,620
because
it's a child-protection issue.

650
00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:06,740
What happened
inside the culture of the clinic

651
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:06,980
What happened
after that paper was published?

652
00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:08,980
after that paper was published?

653
00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:09,180
I think there was a lot of distress.
after that paper was published?

654
00:31:09,180 --> 00:31:12,260
I think there was a lot of distress.

655
00:31:12,260 --> 00:31:14,780
It felt chaotic

656
00:31:14,780 --> 00:31:16,500
in that, you know,

657
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:16,740
in that, you know,
instead of families
calling about appointments,

658
00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:19,780
instead of families
calling about appointments,

659
00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:26,180
they were calling to raise
their concerns and their distress.

660
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:32,100
It was very difficult
for the staff as well.

661
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:36,700
Two months after
the final research was published

662
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:36,940
Two months after
Anna decided to resign.

663
00:31:36,940 --> 00:31:38,860
Anna decided to resign.

664
00:31:40,060 --> 00:31:43,220
ANNA: I left feeling defeated.

665
00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:46,020
I think there was so much
I wanted to do

666
00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:46,260
I think there was so much
and it's such a high-need area,

667
00:31:46,260 --> 00:31:48,740
and it's such a high-need area,

668
00:31:48,740 --> 00:31:53,340
these kids and these adolescents
are struggling.

669
00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:55,260
CROWD: (CHANTS)
Trans is not a crime!

670
00:31:55,260 --> 00:31:58,780
Trans is not a crime!

671
00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:00,740
The Westmead research

672
00:32:00,740 --> 00:32:00,980
landed amid an increasingly polarised
The Westmead research

673
00:32:00,980 --> 00:32:04,380
landed amid an increasingly polarised
global debate

674
00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:04,620
landed amid an increasingly polarised
over gender-affirming care.

675
00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:06,660
over gender-affirming care.

676
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:10,860
CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans lives matter!
Trans lives matter!

677
00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:12,660
Trans lives matter!

678
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:14,500
At least 20 US states

679
00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:16,260
are moving to ban or restrict

680
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:18,740
gender-affirming care
for young people.

681
00:32:18,740 --> 00:32:21,340
CROWD: (CHANTS) Trans rights
are human rights!

682
00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:23,580
Trans rights are human rights!

683
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:28,220
RON DESANTIS: This will permanent
outlaw the mutilation of minors.

684
00:32:28,220 --> 00:32:31,260
It will outlaw
the surgical procedures

685
00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:34,380
and experimental puberty blockers
for minors.

686
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:34,620
and experimental puberty blockers
(APPLAUSE)

687
00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:36,060
(APPLAUSE)

688
00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:36,300
The left-wing gender insanity
(APPLAUSE)

689
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:39,500
The left-wing gender insanity
being pushed on our children

690
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:39,740
The left-wing gender insanity
is an act of child abuse.

691
00:32:39,740 --> 00:32:41,500
is an act of child abuse.

692
00:32:42,620 --> 00:32:44,100
In the UK

693
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:44,340
the long-running gender service
In the UK

694
00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:48,140
the long-running gender service
at London's Tavistock Clinic

695
00:32:48,140 --> 00:32:53,500
has been accused of rushing patients
into taking gender-affirming drugs.

696
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:57,220
DIANNA KENNY: A number of clinicians
who were working there

697
00:32:57,220 --> 00:32:57,460
DIANNA KENNY: A number of clinicians
became very concerned

698
00:32:57,460 --> 00:32:59,620
became very concerned

699
00:32:59,620 --> 00:33:01,340
about the treatment

700
00:33:01,340 --> 00:33:01,540
that young people were receiving,
about the treatment

701
00:33:01,540 --> 00:33:03,580
that young people were receiving,

702
00:33:03,580 --> 00:33:06,860
believing that they
weren't being assessed properly

703
00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:07,100
believing that they
before being placed

704
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:08,340
before being placed

705
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:08,540
before being placed
on a medicalised pathway.

706
00:33:08,540 --> 00:33:11,300
on a medicalised pathway.

707
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:13,020
On the back of this,

708
00:33:13,020 --> 00:33:15,420
the UK National Health Service

709
00:33:15,420 --> 00:33:18,820
has restricted puberty blockers
to children in clinical trials,

710
00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:19,060
stating:
has restricted puberty blockers
to children in clinical trials,

711
00:33:19,060 --> 00:33:20,340
stating:

712
00:33:27,780 --> 00:33:29,540
What went wrong
at the Tavistock clinic

713
00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:32,220
is to get stuck
in one particular point of view.

714
00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:35,060
So, what happened?
People working there simply said,

715
00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:36,060
"It's more complex

716
00:33:36,060 --> 00:33:36,300
"It's more complex
"and we need to have services
that understand that complexity

717
00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:38,860
"and we need to have services
that understand that complexity

718
00:33:38,860 --> 00:33:39,100
"and we need to have services
"and also respond in real time.

719
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:40,420
"and also respond in real time.

720
00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:42,540
"We can't just
in a cookie-cutter way

721
00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:43,780
"do the same thing for every kid."

722
00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:47,460
It was not about that the approaches
were intrinsically wrong.

723
00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:47,700
It was not about that the approaches
It was bad management

724
00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:48,940
It was bad management

725
00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:51,500
of the complexity
of the kids coming forward.

726
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:53,820
And I think there's an important
learning out of the Tavistock -

727
00:33:53,820 --> 00:33:54,060
And I think there's an important
how to do it wrong.

728
00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:55,340
how to do it wrong.

729
00:33:56,900 --> 00:34:00,380
European countries
like Norway, Sweden and Finland

730
00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:00,620
European countries
that once embraced puberty blockers

731
00:34:00,620 --> 00:34:02,300
that once embraced puberty blockers

732
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:03,980
have also wound them back.

733
00:34:04,940 --> 00:34:07,180
DIANNA KENNY:
I've just returned from Finland,

734
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:09,500
from an international conclave

735
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:09,740
on the psychotherapy
from an international conclave

736
00:34:09,740 --> 00:34:13,780
on the psychotherapy
of children with gender dysphoria.

737
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:14,020
on the psychotherapy
And in 2020

738
00:34:14,020 --> 00:34:15,620
And in 2020

739
00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:21,220
they withdrew their support
for gender-affirming treatment

740
00:34:21,220 --> 00:34:25,300
as the first line of treatment
for this group of young people

741
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:30,660
and have reverted
to a psychotherapeutic approach.

742
00:34:33,580 --> 00:34:36,260
The global scrutiny
of medical intervention

743
00:34:36,260 --> 00:34:39,300
is placing increasing pressure
on Australian gender clinics

744
00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:42,300
to show what they do
is evidence-based.

745
00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:46,020
Dr Stathis,
thanks for agreeing to talk to us.

746
00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:46,260
Dr Stathis,
Thank you. It's an important issue.

747
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:48,220
Thank you. It's an important issue.

748
00:34:48,220 --> 00:34:51,500
Dr Stephen Stathis
oversees the gender service

749
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:53,740
at the Queensland
Children's Hospital,

750
00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:58,660
which last year
had 922 active patients.

751
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,860
About 80% of the research

752
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:05,020
on gender-affirming care

753
00:35:05,020 --> 00:35:06,300
has been published

754
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:07,900
in the last 10 years.

755
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:08,140
in the last 10 years.
So, the evidence base is emerging
and it's changing.

756
00:35:08,140 --> 00:35:12,180
So, the evidence base is emerging
and it's changing.

757
00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:16,260
And, so, we're constantly reviewing
that evidence base

758
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:18,500
and adapting our model of care

759
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:21,020
to take into consideration
the new evidence.

760
00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:23,540
For instance,
there's increasing evidence

761
00:35:23,540 --> 00:35:28,500
that puberty blockers
impact on bone mineralisation,

762
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:29,740
problems with the bones,

763
00:35:29,740 --> 00:35:32,020
so, we're adapting
our recommendations

764
00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:32,260
so, we're adapting
and our consent forms

765
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:33,580
and our consent forms

766
00:35:33,580 --> 00:35:35,540
to take that into account.

767
00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:46,460
(WAVES CRASH)

768
00:35:47,420 --> 00:35:49,660
Sapphire is receiving care

769
00:35:49,660 --> 00:35:53,460
at the Queensland
Children's Hospital's gender service.

770
00:35:53,460 --> 00:35:56,700
(WAVES CRASH)

771
00:35:56,700 --> 00:36:01,140
SAPPHIRE: I'm 10, I'm in Grade 5,

772
00:36:01,140 --> 00:36:02,620
and I see myself

773
00:36:02,620 --> 00:36:09,460
as a very energetic and joyful
child.

774
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:14,340
I want people to see me
as a proud transgender girl.

775
00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:14,580
I want people to see me
I'm a girl and that's who I am

776
00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:16,820
I'm a girl and that's who I am

777
00:36:16,820 --> 00:36:19,420
and that's who I will always be.

778
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:23,100
ALISON: My youngest child

779
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:25,860
from a very early age

780
00:36:25,860 --> 00:36:30,060
demonstrated what I now know
as gender nonconformity.

781
00:36:30,060 --> 00:36:30,300
demonstrated what I now know
She was born as a male,

782
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:32,780
She was born as a male,

783
00:36:32,780 --> 00:36:35,060
assigned male at birth,

784
00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:37,260
and was always drawn

785
00:36:37,260 --> 00:36:41,100
to stereotypically feminine
clothing, activities.

786
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:48,300
SAPPHIRE: I knew that I wanted
to be a girl and I was a girl,

787
00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:54,980
but I didn't really know what to say
or how to say it or if it was true.

788
00:36:55,940 --> 00:36:57,420
Oop! I knocked it over!

789
00:36:57,420 --> 00:36:59,900
Back then the family lived in Sydney.

790
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:00,140
In Grade 3 Sapphire was struggling
Back then the family lived in Sydney.

791
00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:04,420
In Grade 3 Sapphire was struggling
because of bullying at school,

792
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:08,860
and her mum noticed she was becoming
increasingly sad and withdrawn.

793
00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:12,540
Alison sought help from the Westmead
Children's gender service.

794
00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:15,260
ALISON: There, in fact,

795
00:37:15,260 --> 00:37:19,300
were no mental-health services
available at the clinic,

796
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:19,540
were no mental-health services
which was very distressing

797
00:37:19,540 --> 00:37:21,940
which was very distressing

798
00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:25,100
and illustrated
that the Westmead clinic

799
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:28,700
was not offering
a complete model of care.

800
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:33,620
So, when I investigated
the gender clinics in interstate,

801
00:37:33,620 --> 00:37:33,860
So, when I investigated
both in Melbourne and in Brisbane,

802
00:37:33,860 --> 00:37:36,100
both in Melbourne and in Brisbane,

803
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:40,500
the comparison between the services
is night and day.

804
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:47,300
Alison decided to move her family
to support her youngest child.

805
00:37:48,940 --> 00:37:52,340
ALISON:
We were forced to relocate states,

806
00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:54,860
we were forced to leave
New South Wales for Queensland

807
00:37:54,860 --> 00:37:57,740
in order to pursue affirming care.

808
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:04,860
SAPPHIRE:
I'll be on puberty blockers soon,

809
00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:05,100
SAPPHIRE:
and that's just gonna be, like,

810
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,340
and that's just gonna be, like,

811
00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:09,740
pausing, really, my body

812
00:38:09,740 --> 00:38:09,980
from growing into
pausing, really, my body

813
00:38:09,980 --> 00:38:13,420
from growing into
what I don't want it to be.

814
00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:13,660
from growing into
And I guess, throughout my life,

815
00:38:13,660 --> 00:38:16,860
And I guess, throughout my life,

816
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:21,820
I've felt more and more
like this isn't me,

817
00:38:21,820 --> 00:38:27,460
the body that I'm in,
I don't want to be in this anymore.

818
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:29,700
One of the critiques
of affirming care

819
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,700
is that it IS too affirming,
if I can be blunt,

820
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:32,940
is that it IS too affirming,
it doesn't do enough exploration.

821
00:38:32,940 --> 00:38:34,820
it doesn't do enough exploration.

822
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:38,420
What's your response to that
in terms of your lived experience?

823
00:38:38,420 --> 00:38:38,660
What's your response to that
I think that transgender children

824
00:38:38,660 --> 00:38:41,380
I think that transgender children

825
00:38:41,380 --> 00:38:41,620
are exploring themselves
I think that transgender children

826
00:38:41,620 --> 00:38:45,300
are exploring themselves
on a daily basis

827
00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:45,540
are exploring themselves
and that level of introspection

828
00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:47,780
and that level of introspection

829
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:51,100
is present
every single day of their lives.

830
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:56,820
And that if they are provided
with unequivocal love and support

831
00:38:56,820 --> 00:39:01,860
then that inner dialogue that they
have been having with themselves

832
00:39:01,860 --> 00:39:05,660
they can then have
with educated health professionals.

833
00:39:05,660 --> 00:39:12,260
It is an ever-present issue
that we face every single day.

834
00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:15,580
It is the very core
of my child's being

835
00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:17,460
and it is unwavering.

836
00:39:19,340 --> 00:39:20,780
How was your afternoon?

837
00:39:20,780 --> 00:39:23,340
KIDS: Good.
Here's some apple, darlings.

838
00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:26,180
STEPHEN STATHIS:
These families need our support.

839
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,460
Are you ready for netball tomorrow?

840
00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:31,460
STEPHEN STATHIS:
What the gender-affirming model says

841
00:39:31,460 --> 00:39:35,660
is that we affirm
where a young person is.

842
00:39:35,660 --> 00:39:35,900
is that we affirm
It doesn't mean

843
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:37,220
It doesn't mean

844
00:39:37,220 --> 00:39:37,420
that we are locked in
It doesn't mean

845
00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:39,100
that we are locked in

846
00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:40,900
to treating a young person

847
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,340
with puberty blockers or hormones.

848
00:39:43,340 --> 00:39:43,580
with puberty blockers or hormones.
It doesn't mean
that we are stuck in some ideology.

849
00:39:43,580 --> 00:39:47,300
It doesn't mean
that we are stuck in some ideology.

850
00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:49,940
What it does mean
is that we're curious

851
00:39:49,940 --> 00:39:54,140
and we're keen to explore
the reasons why they've presented.

852
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:57,940
There is a high-profile case
of a psychiatrist at your hospital

853
00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:02,300
who is under review
in relation to her views

854
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:05,260
on transgender care for children.

855
00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:06,860
What's going on at this hospital?

856
00:40:06,860 --> 00:40:11,140
Well, I can't comment
on the specifics of that case.

857
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:15,700
What I can say
is that I welcome open debate

858
00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:19,500
across the psychiatry community

859
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:19,740
and with the consultants
across the psychiatry community

860
00:40:19,740 --> 00:40:22,340
and with the consultants
in the hospital

861
00:40:22,340 --> 00:40:22,580
and with the consultants
about a whole range of views.

862
00:40:22,580 --> 00:40:25,220
about a whole range of views.

863
00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:29,300
The Queensland Children's Hospital

864
00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:29,540
has stood down a senior psychiatrist
The Queensland Children's Hospital

865
00:40:29,540 --> 00:40:33,060
has stood down a senior psychiatrist
from clinical duties

866
00:40:33,060 --> 00:40:35,340
pending an investigation
over a complaint

867
00:40:35,340 --> 00:40:35,580
pending an investigation
from a young transgender patient.

868
00:40:35,580 --> 00:40:37,820
from a young transgender patient.

869
00:40:37,820 --> 00:40:41,500
Dr Jillian Spencer
is contesting the allegations

870
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,220
and has lodged a complaint with the
Queensland Human Rights Commission

871
00:40:44,220 --> 00:40:44,460
and has lodged a complaint with the
saying, as a doctor,

872
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:45,860
saying, as a doctor,

873
00:40:45,860 --> 00:40:49,940
she should have a right to object
to the affirmation model.

874
00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:50,180
I can't comment on my own situation
she should have a right to object
to the affirmation model.

875
00:40:50,180 --> 00:40:52,020
I can't comment on my own situation

876
00:40:52,020 --> 00:40:53,500
because of the code of conduct,

877
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:55,100
but what I can tell you

878
00:40:55,100 --> 00:40:56,980
is that I think the vast majority

879
00:40:56,980 --> 00:40:57,220
is that I think the vast majority
of child and adolescent
psychiatrists

880
00:40:57,220 --> 00:40:58,500
of child and adolescent
psychiatrists

881
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:01,020
have serious concerns
about the affirmation model.

882
00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:04,700
CROWD: (CHANTS) We will fight! We
will win! Put the bigots in the bin!

883
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:04,980
CROWD: (CHANTS) We will fight! We
will win! Put the bigots in the bin!
We will fight! We will win!
Put the bigots in the bin!

884
00:41:04,980 --> 00:41:08,060
We will fight! We will win!
Put the bigots in the bin!

885
00:41:08,060 --> 00:41:08,300
We will fight! We will win!
We will fight! We will win!

886
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:09,900
We will fight! We will win!

887
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:11,540
Put the bigots in the bin!

888
00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:11,780
Transitioning children
Put the bigots in the bin!

889
00:41:11,780 --> 00:41:16,060
Transitioning children
is profound abuse!

890
00:41:16,060 --> 00:41:18,460
(CHEERING)

891
00:41:18,460 --> 00:41:20,940
When anti-trans activist
Kellie-Jay Keen

892
00:41:20,940 --> 00:41:23,220
held a rally in Canberra
earlier this year

893
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:26,460
Dr Jillian Spencer
joined her on the podium

894
00:41:26,460 --> 00:41:29,380
to warn about gender-affirming care
for young people.

895
00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:33,020
JILLIAN SPENCER:
Anyone's child, yours or mine,

896
00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:36,580
will be encouraged
at school, online,

897
00:41:36,580 --> 00:41:36,820
will be encouraged
during extra-curricular activities

898
00:41:36,820 --> 00:41:38,660
during extra-curricular activities

899
00:41:38,660 --> 00:41:38,900
by their friends
during extra-curricular activities

900
00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:41,940
by their friends
and by health professionals

901
00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:42,180
by their friends
to contemplate their gender.

902
00:41:42,180 --> 00:41:43,900
to contemplate their gender.

903
00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:46,780
The hospital has told Dr Spencer

904
00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:50,780
she allegedly broke the Queensland
Public Service's Code of Conduct

905
00:41:50,780 --> 00:41:51,020
she allegedly broke the Queensland
through her public statements.

906
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:52,620
through her public statements.

907
00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:52,860
She contests this and says she was
through her public statements.

908
00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:57,780
She contests this and says she was
speaking in a private capacity.

909
00:41:57,780 --> 00:41:58,020
She contests this and says she was
There are massive health risks

910
00:41:58,020 --> 00:41:59,540
There are massive health risks

911
00:41:59,540 --> 00:42:02,500
from these experimental medications
and surgeries.

912
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:07,060
We must speak out about the harms we
see being done to women and children

913
00:42:07,060 --> 00:42:08,540
from gender ideology.

914
00:42:08,540 --> 00:42:12,100
(CHEERING)

915
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:14,500
I think after the years of pressure

916
00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:17,820
and not being able
to express these concerns,

917
00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:22,420
I just felt that I couldn't miss
an opportunity to say them out loud.

918
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:22,660
I just felt that I couldn't miss
It's a really hard thing as a doctor

919
00:42:22,660 --> 00:42:25,540
It's a really hard thing as a doctor

920
00:42:25,540 --> 00:42:28,020
to be in a position where you feel

921
00:42:28,020 --> 00:42:32,940
that you need to do an intervention
that you don't agree with.

922
00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:36,500
And being able
to speak aloud about it was...

923
00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:36,740
And being able
..you know, a relief.

924
00:42:36,740 --> 00:42:39,460
..you know, a relief.

925
00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:42,340
Dr Spencer is calling
for a federal inquiry

926
00:42:42,340 --> 00:42:45,700
into the gender-affirmation model
for young people.

927
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:45,940
into the gender-affirmation model
I worry about the harm to children,

928
00:42:45,940 --> 00:42:47,700
I worry about the harm to children,

929
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:47,940
and of concern is the knowledge
I worry about the harm to children,

930
00:42:47,940 --> 00:42:52,500
and of concern is the knowledge
that it is much more common

931
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:57,820
for children
who later will be gay or lesbian

932
00:42:57,820 --> 00:43:02,780
to show cross-sex identification
and gender dysphoria in childhood.

933
00:43:02,780 --> 00:43:03,020
to show cross-sex identification
So, there is that worry there

934
00:43:03,020 --> 00:43:04,300
So, there is that worry there

935
00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:04,540
that we're changing the trajectory
So, there is that worry there

936
00:43:04,540 --> 00:43:07,700
that we're changing the trajectory
of those children.

937
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:09,420
My main concern
with puberty blockers

938
00:43:09,420 --> 00:43:12,300
is that they stop the healing
of the gender dysphoria

939
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,780
that naturally occurs
through the course of adolescence

940
00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:18,020
that we know from the old studies.

941
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:21,700
Dr Spencer points to the prevalence
of other issues

942
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:21,940
Dr Spencer points to the prevalence
like autism, ADHD and depression.

943
00:43:21,940 --> 00:43:25,300
like autism, ADHD and depression.

944
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:27,180
Rather than medical intervention,

945
00:43:27,180 --> 00:43:30,500
she urges
what's known as 'watchful waiting'.

946
00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:30,740
she urges
'Watchful waiting' is a medical term

947
00:43:30,740 --> 00:43:33,820
'Watchful waiting' is a medical term

948
00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:37,380
which tended to describe

949
00:43:37,380 --> 00:43:40,820
taking time to see if a problem
resolves before intervening.

950
00:43:40,820 --> 00:43:43,780
But in terms
of a watchful-waiting approach

951
00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:44,020
But in terms
for children with gender dysphoria,

952
00:43:44,020 --> 00:43:46,060
for children with gender dysphoria,

953
00:43:46,060 --> 00:43:48,900
that would involve
engaging with them,

954
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:52,300
treating mental-health
comorbidities,

955
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:55,980
and engaging them in therapy

956
00:43:55,980 --> 00:43:57,940
and family therapy if need be,

957
00:43:57,940 --> 00:44:00,780
optimising their school functioning
and engagement

958
00:44:00,780 --> 00:44:03,740
and trying to get them connected
to peers and activities

959
00:44:03,740 --> 00:44:06,100
that help them
to feel good about who they are.

960
00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:06,340
that help them
There's no evidence

961
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:07,580
There's no evidence

962
00:44:07,580 --> 00:44:07,820
that exploratory therapy,
simple psychological therapy,
There's no evidence

963
00:44:07,820 --> 00:44:10,140
that exploratory therapy,
simple psychological therapy,

964
00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:13,180
is a legitimate alternative
to what is being offered

965
00:44:13,180 --> 00:44:14,860
through most of our specialist
clinics in Australia.

966
00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:15,100
through most of our specialist
clinics in Australia.
Exploratory psychological therapies,

967
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:16,380
Exploratory psychological therapies,

968
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:19,220
family therapies instead,
watchful waiting

969
00:44:19,220 --> 00:44:19,460
family therapies instead,
are not evidence-based.

970
00:44:19,460 --> 00:44:21,060
are not evidence-based.

971
00:44:21,060 --> 00:44:23,820
They are the sets
of intrinsic beliefs

972
00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:25,340
of different professional groups.

973
00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:31,740
There's a new front in the battle
over gender-affirming care,

974
00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:31,980
There's a new front in the battle
and it involves detransitioners.

975
00:44:31,980 --> 00:44:35,060
and it involves detransitioners.

976
00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:40,620
(CLAPS) Clap sync!

977
00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:42,220
My name is Courtney Coulson,

978
00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:44,500
a female to male to female
detransitioner,

979
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:47,020
and on this channel we try to figure
out what the hell is wrong with me.

980
00:44:47,020 --> 00:44:50,180
On this episode -
why did I want to be a man?

981
00:44:50,180 --> 00:44:55,340
Courtney Coulson started testosterone
treatment in her early 20s.

982
00:44:55,340 --> 00:44:58,180
She shares her story
on her YouTube channel.

983
00:44:58,180 --> 00:45:02,620
COURTNEY COULSON: I think you can
be pushed so far into a belief

984
00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:04,340
that these things
start to become real

985
00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:07,020
and this other identity
becomes real.

986
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:13,580
I just went right through the trans
sort of production line there

987
00:45:13,580 --> 00:45:13,860
and I stayed living as a man
for five years.
I just went right through the trans
sort of production line there

988
00:45:13,860 --> 00:45:18,220
and I stayed living as a man
for five years.

989
00:45:19,540 --> 00:45:23,220
COVID lockdown meant she couldn't
go ahead with planned chest surgery

990
00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:26,940
and eventually she stopped taking
cross-sex hormones.

991
00:45:26,940 --> 00:45:30,460
COURTNEY COULSON:
I stopped taking testosterone,

992
00:45:30,460 --> 00:45:34,740
and then my brain and body
just sort of balanced itself out.

993
00:45:34,740 --> 00:45:38,420
Whatever I was going through
when I wanted to transition

994
00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:41,460
I seemed to have outgrown
and gotten over it.

995
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,300
DIANNA KENNY:
We don't have good data

996
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:46,540
DIANNA KENNY:
on the number of detransitioners,

997
00:45:46,540 --> 00:45:49,140
on the number of detransitioners,

998
00:45:49,140 --> 00:45:49,340
but what we do know
on the number of detransitioners,

999
00:45:49,340 --> 00:45:50,540
but what we do know

1000
00:45:50,540 --> 00:45:50,780
is that there are an avalanche
but what we do know
of young people coming out

1001
00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:54,780
is that there are an avalanche
of young people coming out

1002
00:45:54,780 --> 00:45:57,940
and talking about their experiences.

1003
00:45:57,940 --> 00:45:58,180
and talking about their experiences.
And people as young
as 18, 19, early 20s

1004
00:45:58,180 --> 00:46:02,980
And people as young
as 18, 19, early 20s

1005
00:46:02,980 --> 00:46:03,220
And people as young
are warning their younger peers,

1006
00:46:03,220 --> 00:46:05,900
are warning their younger peers,

1007
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:08,380
"Don't make the mistake
that I've made.

1008
00:46:08,380 --> 00:46:11,340
"I'm going to regret this
for the rest of my life."

1009
00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:16,180
Research on those who regret
transitioning is still emerging.

1010
00:46:16,180 --> 00:46:21,180
Supporters of gender-affirming care
put it at around 1%.

1011
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:24,540
But the voices of those
who regret medical intervention

1012
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:26,140
are growing louder.

1013
00:46:26,140 --> 00:46:29,220
Before you commit to this thing
for the rest of your life,

1014
00:46:29,220 --> 00:46:31,340
don't you want to see
every perspective?

1015
00:46:31,340 --> 00:46:33,460
I should have been able to do that,
and I didn't.

1016
00:46:33,460 --> 00:46:36,020
(BELL DINGS)

1017
00:46:36,020 --> 00:46:39,460
(TRAFFIC DRONES)

1018
00:46:39,460 --> 00:46:41,700
Melbourne's Royal Children's Hospital

1019
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:45,620
pioneered gender-affirming care
in Australia.

1020
00:46:45,620 --> 00:46:48,260
For the last few years leaders of the
service have kept their heads down

1021
00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:48,500
For the last few years leaders of the
as the anti-trans sentiment

1022
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:50,740
as the anti-trans sentiment

1023
00:46:50,740 --> 00:46:53,020
became more ferocious
and politicised.

1024
00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:57,140
They have decided
they can't stay quiet any longer.

1025
00:46:57,140 --> 00:47:00,620
There's lots of misinformation
out there

1026
00:47:00,620 --> 00:47:02,860
and it effects
young people that we see.

1027
00:47:02,860 --> 00:47:04,500
We don't have anything to hide

1028
00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:09,220
because we're really strong on what
we do and the evidence behind it.

1029
00:47:09,220 --> 00:47:15,100
Some of those who are critical
of the gender-affirming approach

1030
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:15,380
almost assume that we blindly
only look at gender, and we don't.
Some of those who are critical
of the gender-affirming approach

1031
00:47:15,380 --> 00:47:20,100
almost assume that we blindly
only look at gender, and we don't.

1032
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:22,980
People are complex
and we look at all aspects

1033
00:47:22,980 --> 00:47:23,260
People are complex
and we look at all aspects
and we do take a biopsychosocial
history and a developmental history

1034
00:47:23,260 --> 00:47:28,100
and we do take a biopsychosocial
history and a developmental history

1035
00:47:28,100 --> 00:47:28,340
and we do take a biopsychosocial
and we really consider

1036
00:47:28,340 --> 00:47:29,300
and we really consider

1037
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:29,540
what are the coexisting
and we really consider

1038
00:47:29,540 --> 00:47:32,380
what are the coexisting
physical and mental-health aspects

1039
00:47:32,380 --> 00:47:35,940
and what we try
and look at addressing all of them

1040
00:47:35,940 --> 00:47:40,820
or what is the most prominent
and urgent at that point in time.

1041
00:47:40,820 --> 00:47:45,140
So, we all know that
our waitlist continues to be long,

1042
00:47:45,140 --> 00:47:47,380
and it's a kind of...

1043
00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:50,860
..difficult responsibility
and burden that we all hold

1044
00:47:50,860 --> 00:47:52,940
and we're working really hard
to develop supports

1045
00:47:52,940 --> 00:47:53,180
and we're working really hard
for those on the wait list.

1046
00:47:53,180 --> 00:47:54,340
for those on the wait list.

1047
00:47:54,340 --> 00:47:55,900
The multi-disciplinary team

1048
00:47:55,900 --> 00:47:56,140
includes psychiatrists,
The multi-disciplinary team

1049
00:47:56,140 --> 00:47:58,100
includes psychiatrists,
psychologists,

1050
00:47:58,100 --> 00:47:58,340
includes psychiatrists,
paediatricians and nurses.

1051
00:47:58,340 --> 00:48:00,940
paediatricians and nurses.

1052
00:48:00,940 --> 00:48:03,420
TRAM NGUYEN: It's not one session
and you get hormones.

1053
00:48:03,420 --> 00:48:06,500
That's a total misconception
about what we do.

1054
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:10,500
People can come to us
and it can be months and years,

1055
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:14,140
depending on how old and what
developmental stage they're at

1056
00:48:14,140 --> 00:48:17,300
before there is any
medical treatment, if there is.

1057
00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:17,540
before there is any
We talk through at length

1058
00:48:17,540 --> 00:48:19,780
We talk through at length

1059
00:48:19,780 --> 00:48:23,180
with both a medical
and a mental-health clinician

1060
00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:26,620
regarding reversible
and irreversible effects.

1061
00:48:26,620 --> 00:48:30,260
We talk about fertility,
we talk about regret,

1062
00:48:30,260 --> 00:48:30,500
We talk about fertility,
we talk about changing your mind.

1063
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:32,500
we talk about changing your mind.

1064
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:35,380
We don't shy away
from any of those hard questions.

1065
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:42,340
Paediatrician Ken Pang
is leading long-term research

1066
00:48:42,340 --> 00:48:46,900
examining outcomes for young people
attending the Melbourne clinic.

1067
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:49,580
What we're aiming to do
is to look at their long-term

1068
00:48:49,580 --> 00:48:49,820
What we're aiming to do
mental- and physical-health outcomes

1069
00:48:49,820 --> 00:48:51,260
mental- and physical-health outcomes

1070
00:48:51,260 --> 00:48:51,500
having received gender-affirming
mental- and physical-health outcomes

1071
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:53,780
having received gender-affirming
care at our hospital.

1072
00:48:53,780 --> 00:48:54,060
having received gender-affirming
care at our hospital.
We're also looking
at things such as bone health.

1073
00:48:54,060 --> 00:48:56,020
We're also looking
at things such as bone health.

1074
00:48:56,020 --> 00:48:57,860
We're looking again
at things like mental health

1075
00:48:57,860 --> 00:48:58,100
We're looking again
before and after puberty blockers,

1076
00:48:58,100 --> 00:48:59,780
before and after puberty blockers,

1077
00:48:59,780 --> 00:49:00,020
before and after
before and after puberty blockers,

1078
00:49:00,020 --> 00:49:02,260
before and after
gender-affirming hormones

1079
00:49:02,260 --> 00:49:03,820
in the form
of oestrogen and testosterone.

1080
00:49:03,820 --> 00:49:04,060
in the form
There's a war on the actual research.

1081
00:49:04,060 --> 00:49:06,300
There's a war on the actual research.

1082
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:12,220
How do you navigate that and provide
the best standard of evidence?

1083
00:49:12,220 --> 00:49:13,820
I don't feel
like there's a war of research

1084
00:49:13,820 --> 00:49:17,500
when it comes to robust,
evidence-based, rigorous research.

1085
00:49:17,500 --> 00:49:23,220
I think that in terms
of the war of opinion,

1086
00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:27,620
as with many issues,
lots of people have opinions,

1087
00:49:27,620 --> 00:49:29,460
but what's problematic

1088
00:49:29,460 --> 00:49:31,580
is that sometimes
people who voice those opinions

1089
00:49:31,580 --> 00:49:34,100
don't actually
have any expertise in the area.

1090
00:49:34,100 --> 00:49:38,580
There's been a lot in media
and social media at the moment

1091
00:49:38,580 --> 00:49:42,740
that really doesn't align with
our practice at the gender service.

1092
00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:46,460
Dr Tram Nguyen fears the needs
of young transgender people

1093
00:49:46,460 --> 00:49:46,700
Dr Tram Nguyen fears the needs
are being misunderstood.

1094
00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:48,020
are being misunderstood.

1095
00:49:48,020 --> 00:49:51,620
She's especially worried
by the impact of the recent research

1096
00:49:51,620 --> 00:49:51,860
She's especially worried
from Westmead Children's Hospital.

1097
00:49:51,860 --> 00:49:53,900
from Westmead Children's Hospital.

1098
00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:54,140
Perhaps that's something
from Westmead Children's Hospital.

1099
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:55,780
Perhaps that's something
that we can then bring

1100
00:49:55,780 --> 00:49:56,020
Perhaps that's something
to the rest of the community

1101
00:49:56,020 --> 00:49:57,300
to the rest of the community

1102
00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:59,940
in terms of the education
that we provide.

1103
00:49:59,940 --> 00:50:00,180
in terms of the education
Dr Nguyen is one of seven

1104
00:50:00,180 --> 00:50:02,020
Dr Nguyen is one of seven

1105
00:50:02,020 --> 00:50:02,260
senior adolescent clinicians
Dr Nguyen is one of seven

1106
00:50:02,260 --> 00:50:04,940
senior adolescent clinicians
from around Australia

1107
00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:05,180
senior adolescent clinicians
who have published a critique

1108
00:50:05,180 --> 00:50:06,540
who have published a critique

1109
00:50:06,540 --> 00:50:09,700
rejecting the conclusions
of the Westmead research.

1110
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:15,620
We are not a group of clinicians or
researchers who do this regularly,

1111
00:50:15,620 --> 00:50:18,820
but, for us, we just felt
that there was a moral obligation.

1112
00:50:18,820 --> 00:50:22,580
These are senior clinicians
who've done long-term research.

1113
00:50:22,580 --> 00:50:25,980
What makes you so sure
that their conclusions are wrong?

1114
00:50:25,980 --> 00:50:29,380
A number that has been quoted
in other media outlets

1115
00:50:29,380 --> 00:50:29,660
is 22% of young people
in that study desisted,
A number that has been quoted
in other media outlets

1116
00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:34,780
is 22% of young people
in that study desisted,

1117
00:50:34,780 --> 00:50:37,380
and 22% is a really alarming figure.

1118
00:50:37,380 --> 00:50:37,620
and 22% is a really alarming figure.
It's alarming to young people,
to parents and clinicians

1119
00:50:37,620 --> 00:50:41,380
It's alarming to young people,
to parents and clinicians

1120
00:50:41,380 --> 00:50:44,100
and clinicians
who don't work in the field.

1121
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:47,220
But, when we look
at the raw numbers,

1122
00:50:47,220 --> 00:50:50,220
the 22% is actually incorrect.

1123
00:50:50,220 --> 00:50:53,740
You, alongside other doctors
across the country,

1124
00:50:53,740 --> 00:50:58,340
signed a letter sharing your concerns
about the Westmead research.

1125
00:50:58,340 --> 00:50:58,580
signed a letter sharing your concerns
Why did you do that?

1126
00:50:58,580 --> 00:50:59,660
Why did you do that?

1127
00:50:59,660 --> 00:50:59,900
Because I believe
that we need balanced research,
Why did you do that?

1128
00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:04,460
Because I believe
that we need balanced research,

1129
00:51:04,460 --> 00:51:04,700
Because I believe
and I believe that in that article

1130
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:07,380
and I believe that in that article

1131
00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:07,620
and I believe that in that article
there were flaws
that need to be corrected.

1132
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:10,140
there were flaws
that need to be corrected.

1133
00:51:12,060 --> 00:51:14,260
Four Corners has tried many times

1134
00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:16,980
to put these concerns
to the Westmead researchers,

1135
00:51:16,980 --> 00:51:19,700
but they've all declined
to speak to us.

1136
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:24,300
In a statement, the Sydney
Children's Hospitals Network

1137
00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:26,020
said it's:

1138
00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:40,460
In 2021 the New South Wales
Government allocated an annual budget

1139
00:51:40,460 --> 00:51:40,700
In 2021 the New South Wales
of $1.5 million

1140
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:42,220
of $1.5 million

1141
00:51:42,220 --> 00:51:42,460
to open a new gender hub
of $1.5 million

1142
00:51:42,460 --> 00:51:45,660
to open a new gender hub
for under 25-year-olds.

1143
00:51:45,660 --> 00:51:49,180
The service is to be run by
Sydney Children's Hospitals Network

1144
00:51:49,180 --> 00:51:49,420
The service is to be run by
and another health partner.

1145
00:51:49,420 --> 00:51:51,420
and another health partner.

1146
00:51:51,420 --> 00:51:55,940
But, after two years and more
funding, the service is yet to open.

1147
00:51:55,940 --> 00:52:00,300
NSW Health has told Four Corners
it's "under development."

1148
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:04,420
PARENT: The last item on the agenda

1149
00:52:04,420 --> 00:52:07,300
is a discussion about Westmead.

1150
00:52:07,300 --> 00:52:09,780
I know that the clinicians
at Westmead

1151
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:12,820
certainly were not partners
in the research, and, in fact...

1152
00:52:12,820 --> 00:52:13,060
certainly were not partners
These Sydney parents,

1153
00:52:13,060 --> 00:52:14,300
These Sydney parents,

1154
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:16,820
some with kids at the Westmead
Children's Gender Clinic,

1155
00:52:16,820 --> 00:52:19,940
are worried about the future
of their children's care.

1156
00:52:19,940 --> 00:52:20,180
are worried about the future
The research

1157
00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:21,740
The research

1158
00:52:21,740 --> 00:52:21,980
has brought down
The research

1159
00:52:21,980 --> 00:52:24,380
has brought down
an enormous amount of stress.

1160
00:52:24,380 --> 00:52:28,020
Consequently we've lost, you know,
really important people

1161
00:52:28,020 --> 00:52:31,420
that have been
a part of our kids' journey.

1162
00:52:31,420 --> 00:52:36,220
A paediatrician from the gender
service left earlier this year

1163
00:52:36,220 --> 00:52:37,940
distressed over Noah's case

1164
00:52:37,940 --> 00:52:41,340
and the impact
of the controversial research.

1165
00:52:41,340 --> 00:52:44,660
For some staff
to be considering to be leaving

1166
00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:48,580
because they're not finding it
to be a supportive environment

1167
00:52:48,580 --> 00:52:51,820
to do what they know
needs to be done for trans youth

1168
00:52:51,820 --> 00:52:54,340
is really distressing
for the families.

1169
00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:58,220
For the trans youth
that desperately need that support,

1170
00:52:58,220 --> 00:52:58,460
For the trans youth
what's going to happen to them?

1171
00:52:58,460 --> 00:53:00,460
what's going to happen to them?

1172
00:53:05,660 --> 00:53:09,300
Lannen's son Ashley eventually
sought private medical care

1173
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:12,700
to have chest surgery
and cross-sex hormones.

1174
00:53:15,220 --> 00:53:17,780
ASHLEY: I'm 22, I'm a tradie,

1175
00:53:17,780 --> 00:53:18,020
and I want people to know
ASHLEY: I'm 22, I'm a tradie,

1176
00:53:18,020 --> 00:53:22,300
and I want people to know
that trans people are here.

1177
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:26,940
We exist, and we have existed,
and we'll continue to exist.

1178
00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:29,940
(ENGINE STARTS)

1179
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:34,220
I'm not really into advocacy.

1180
00:53:34,220 --> 00:53:37,580
I just go to work, I do my job,
I go home.

1181
00:53:37,580 --> 00:53:37,820
I just go to work, I do my job,
That's my life.

1182
00:53:37,820 --> 00:53:39,060
That's my life.

1183
00:53:39,060 --> 00:53:39,300
I'll go out with mates on
That's my life.

1184
00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:43,220
I'll go out with mates on
the weekend, but that's really it.

1185
00:53:47,180 --> 00:53:49,460
I'm not an activist.

1186
00:53:49,460 --> 00:53:51,140
I'm not good with my words.

1187
00:53:51,140 --> 00:53:53,700
I'm not good with, you know,

1188
00:53:53,700 --> 00:53:59,660
persuading people
about why they should change.

1189
00:54:00,980 --> 00:54:05,940
No, it's better left to people
who are better at it.

1190
00:54:11,100 --> 00:54:13,620
Some people contest
whether it should happen at all.

1191
00:54:13,620 --> 00:54:13,860
Some people contest
They say kids are too young.

1192
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:15,100
They say kids are too young.

1193
00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:19,620
They say that it's gender activists
pushing this stuff onto kids

1194
00:54:19,620 --> 00:54:22,900
and making them
question their gender.

1195
00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:25,140
What's your response to that?

1196
00:54:25,140 --> 00:54:27,340
It makes me angry.

1197
00:54:27,340 --> 00:54:29,900
I've lost my child

1198
00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:33,780
because there was
none of that support.

1199
00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:41,380
To say that it's gender activists
pushing it onto children...

1200
00:54:42,340 --> 00:54:47,620
..again, why would children
choose this if it is so hard?

1201
00:54:48,980 --> 00:54:51,540
Why would anyone choose something
if it's so hard

1202
00:54:51,540 --> 00:54:56,740
but if it's not for them
being authentic in themselves?

1203
00:54:58,260 --> 00:55:01,300
(FIRE CRACKLES, INSECTS CHIRP)

1204
00:55:04,860 --> 00:55:06,460
BROCK WILLCOCKS: As an adult,

1205
00:55:06,460 --> 00:55:10,780
I see myself to be happy,
fully transitioned...

1206
00:55:11,740 --> 00:55:13,700
..healthy

1207
00:55:13,700 --> 00:55:15,740
and comfortable in my own body.

1208
00:55:15,740 --> 00:55:20,620
I see myself as a woman,

1209
00:55:20,620 --> 00:55:24,300
and hopefully by that time

1210
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:26,500
a lot more people
decide to come around

1211
00:55:26,500 --> 00:55:31,020
and see me as a woman as well.

1212
00:55:41,940 --> 00:55:43,980
(THEME MUSIC PLAYS)