1 00:00:07,361 --> 00:00:11,103 I feel like... something bad is gonna happen to me. 2 00:00:12,566 --> 00:00:15,376 I feel like something bad has happened. 3 00:00:15,969 --> 00:00:19,211 It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way. 4 00:00:31,117 --> 00:00:32,174 I don't know why it's important. 5 00:00:32,175 --> 00:00:35,812 It's like how it helps people, like, dealing with her loss, 6 00:00:35,813 --> 00:00:39,233 like making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 7 00:00:51,103 --> 00:00:53,082 Alice kept secrets. 8 00:00:53,605 --> 00:00:57,621 She... kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 9 00:01:06,884 --> 00:01:11,479 It's hard for some people to understand, but you have to believe you're to blame 10 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,434 or else there's nothing to hold on to. 11 00:01:48,792 --> 00:01:49,849 Police and emergency service. 12 00:01:49,850 --> 00:01:53,008 My daughter, Alice, has gone missing. We need some... 13 00:01:53,262 --> 00:01:55,897 - How long ago did you last... - She was in the dam... 14 00:01:55,898 --> 00:01:57,137 looked everywhere. 15 00:02:00,703 --> 00:02:04,035 - Do you know where you are? - We're on the other side of the dam. 16 00:02:04,036 --> 00:02:06,835 - She's been missing for quite a few... - Okay. 17 00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:10,537 - Please send someone now. - I need you to talk to me for a second. 18 00:02:10,538 --> 00:02:14,560 - We don't know where she is. - Hello, June, can you hear me? 19 00:02:25,026 --> 00:02:28,893 The normally tranquil setting of Ararat's Norval Dam was shattered yesterday... 20 00:02:28,894 --> 00:02:31,487 with the disappearance of 16-year-old Alice Palmer... 21 00:02:31,488 --> 00:02:33,192 while picnicking with her family. 22 00:02:33,193 --> 00:02:37,420 We received a call around 6:00 pm. tonight of a missing girl, 23 00:02:37,705 --> 00:02:39,535 and on discovering the nature of the situation... 24 00:02:39,536 --> 00:02:42,199 we called in the search-and-rescue divers from Melbourne. 25 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,767 Police divers entered the water around 10 o'clock with SES volunteers... 26 00:02:45,768 --> 00:02:47,244 joining a fruitless search... 27 00:02:47,245 --> 00:02:50,863 Matt and Ali had swum out to the middle of the dam. 28 00:02:51,351 --> 00:02:55,684 I could see them from where I was sitting at the picnic area. 29 00:02:55,685 --> 00:02:57,985 I think we'd been in the water for about 15 minutes, 30 00:02:57,986 --> 00:03:01,709 and I said that I was gonna get out. It was cold. 31 00:03:02,896 --> 00:03:05,998 So, I started swimming back and she didn't come out with me, 32 00:03:05,999 --> 00:03:08,444 so I thought she's gonna stay in there. 33 00:03:09,703 --> 00:03:11,944 I remember Matty got out, 34 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,519 and a few minutes later, I heard him ask where was Alice. 35 00:03:22,181 --> 00:03:26,844 So, I stood up and looked out across the dam, 36 00:03:26,845 --> 00:03:30,365 and the water was completely still. 37 00:03:31,957 --> 00:03:33,799 So I called out. 38 00:03:34,993 --> 00:03:39,441 I looked out over the water to see if I could see her. 39 00:03:42,133 --> 00:03:45,465 And both the boys had kind of checked, 40 00:03:45,466 --> 00:03:49,484 you know, the bush land behind. 41 00:03:49,841 --> 00:03:53,788 I could see Alice's towel, she'd left it on the ground, 42 00:03:55,180 --> 00:03:57,545 and she clearly hadn't got out of the water... 43 00:03:57,546 --> 00:04:01,858 because then, you know, she would have picked up her towel, so.. . 44 00:04:03,153 --> 00:04:06,964 Yeah, that was the last time that I saw her. 45 00:04:28,011 --> 00:04:31,707 Police continue to hold grave fears for 16-year-old Alice Palmer 46 00:04:31,708 --> 00:04:34,192 who disappeared while picnicking with her family. 47 00:04:34,584 --> 00:04:35,845 Police search-and-rescue divers... 48 00:04:35,846 --> 00:04:38,102 We were told to go home, 49 00:04:40,223 --> 00:04:43,555 and if the search-and-rescue divers found anything 50 00:04:43,556 --> 00:04:45,935 then they'd let us know immediately. 51 00:04:58,106 --> 00:05:00,403 It felt very strange in the car on the way home 52 00:05:00,404 --> 00:05:03,125 because there was one empty seat. 53 00:05:03,378 --> 00:05:08,496 One minute she was there and then gone. 54 00:05:11,152 --> 00:05:13,949 I went back to stay with the Palmers that night. 55 00:05:13,950 --> 00:05:17,729 We were just mostly waiting, mostly waiting for news. 56 00:05:20,294 --> 00:05:23,775 For bad news. There was that expectation. 57 00:05:24,498 --> 00:05:29,208 We got a call from Russell on his mobile about 9:00 at night. 58 00:05:29,637 --> 00:05:34,073 And he said there'd been an accident at the weir, 59 00:05:34,074 --> 00:05:36,733 and Alice had gone missing. 60 00:05:36,734 --> 00:05:40,826 So, we thought that we better go to Ararat. 61 00:05:41,348 --> 00:05:46,649 I remember June was a bit funny about seeing Iris, 62 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:50,086 there was a strange feeling between them. 63 00:05:50,087 --> 00:05:54,466 It felt a little strange having my mother there. 64 00:05:55,427 --> 00:05:57,770 Mum and I, there for Alice, 65 00:05:59,264 --> 00:06:02,608 just didn't feel like the right order of things. 66 00:06:04,737 --> 00:06:07,182 It was an awful, awful night. 67 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:10,181 Worst night of our lives. 68 00:06:14,646 --> 00:06:17,341 I went into Alice's room later that night 69 00:06:17,342 --> 00:06:24,265 and her phone went off a couple of times, but I didn't answer it. 70 00:06:30,461 --> 00:06:33,111 I remember, the bed was made. 71 00:06:34,132 --> 00:06:37,442 I remember thinking how neat everything looked. 72 00:06:51,415 --> 00:06:54,872 I got a call from Alice's mum, June. 73 00:06:54,873 --> 00:07:01,140 She'd said that Alice is missing and presumed, like, she drowned 74 00:07:02,859 --> 00:07:04,621 and I didn't not believe her, 75 00:07:04,622 --> 00:07:08,993 but, I don't know, it was kind of hard to take, 76 00:07:08,994 --> 00:07:12,864 so I actually called Alice's mobile. 77 00:07:12,865 --> 00:07:14,447 I just.. . 78 00:07:16,672 --> 00:07:17,968 Maybe wanted to see if.. . 79 00:07:17,969 --> 00:07:20,622 Hope it was a joke or something, I don't know. 80 00:07:20,943 --> 00:07:24,026 It was just a real shock. 81 00:07:25,581 --> 00:07:28,629 Just didn't really feel like it was real. 82 00:07:30,852 --> 00:07:35,698 Everything was the same as always, but people were saying Alice had drowned. 83 00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:39,874 Are there any memories from that night that stand out for you? 84 00:07:41,629 --> 00:07:44,279 I remember we had the porch light on. 85 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,850 Still do, actually, just in case. 86 00:07:48,903 --> 00:07:50,745 And why is that? 87 00:07:59,514 --> 00:08:02,357 Just in case she comes home, I guess. 88 00:08:24,904 --> 00:08:26,781 All right, get in. 89 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:35,338 The SES divers located Alice's body at approximately 9/25 p. m . 90 00:08:35,339 --> 00:08:39,372 They used sonar to locate her. And she'd drifted some way 91 00:08:39,373 --> 00:08:44,036 and come to rest on a shelf at the bottom of the storm water system in the dam. 92 00:08:45,258 --> 00:08:47,840 Obviously contacted the family immediately. 93 00:08:48,995 --> 00:08:51,928 As soon as we were told that they'd found the body, 94 00:08:51,929 --> 00:08:53,327 June and I went down to the dam. 95 00:08:53,328 --> 00:08:55,524 Georgie'd come over to keep Matt company. 96 00:08:55,525 --> 00:09:00,627 It was all very official and formal, and they asked me to sign a statement 97 00:09:00,628 --> 00:09:02,296 of identification. 98 00:09:02,297 --> 00:09:04,489 June stayed in the car. 99 00:09:06,210 --> 00:09:08,336 And, you know, on reflection, I think that was a mistake 100 00:09:08,337 --> 00:09:10,926 because she didn't have any closure. 101 00:09:13,017 --> 00:09:17,363 I just couldn't bring myself to identify Alice's body. 102 00:09:18,289 --> 00:09:22,588 She'd been underwater all that time and it... 103 00:09:22,589 --> 00:09:24,901 I guess it's not how I.. . 104 00:09:25,629 --> 00:09:28,814 I didn't want to remember her in that way. 105 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,311 I thought that was my responsibility as Ali's dad, you know. 106 00:09:37,607 --> 00:09:39,848 That's what a father does. 107 00:09:59,394 --> 00:10:02,385 The car stalled on the way back from the dam. 108 00:10:02,386 --> 00:10:05,626 But the only gear I could get it into was reverse. 109 00:10:05,627 --> 00:10:09,352 So, we drove back into town in reverse. 110 00:10:10,339 --> 00:10:15,139 Which was either that or walk. And given everything that had happened, 111 00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:17,860 seemed like the better option, really. 112 00:10:29,090 --> 00:10:32,707 The autopsy was performed on the Monday, the 27th. 113 00:10:34,929 --> 00:10:40,708 Then the coroner released the body on Tuesday, the 28th. 114 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:48,514 It was very strange spending Christmas Day with the family up there 115 00:10:49,075 --> 00:10:51,850 while Alice lay alone in the morgue. 116 00:11:01,921 --> 00:11:06,482 I don't know, it was just like I hadn't seen her for a week or anything, like.. . 117 00:11:06,483 --> 00:11:08,834 Yeah, it didn't feel real. 118 00:11:13,832 --> 00:11:16,698 Death takes everything eventually. 119 00:11:16,699 --> 00:11:19,430 It's the meanest, dumbest machine there is, and it just keeps coming... 120 00:11:19,431 --> 00:11:21,518 and it doesn't care. 121 00:11:23,609 --> 00:11:26,851 There's nothing else to know about it, really. 122 00:11:29,214 --> 00:11:32,849 It was a somber day for the family and friends of Alice Palmer 123 00:11:32,850 --> 00:11:37,161 who gathered to pay their final respects to a young woman taken too soon. 124 00:11:37,221 --> 00:11:41,339 She was a great person. Very popular, clever, lovely. 125 00:11:42,193 --> 00:11:44,070 She was.. . I don't.. . Yeah. 126 00:11:44,128 --> 00:11:48,325 Alice is remembered as a happy, fun-loving girl with a zest for life. 127 00:11:48,326 --> 00:11:50,263 Described as always putting others... 128 00:11:50,264 --> 00:11:53,678 The Palmers were really doing it tough at that time. 129 00:11:54,972 --> 00:11:58,668 And when I think of how bad it was back then, 130 00:11:58,669 --> 00:12:02,257 it's hard to imagine how much worse they would get. 131 00:12:15,225 --> 00:12:19,489 Ten days after Ali's funeral, so that makes it the 15th of January, 132 00:12:19,490 --> 00:12:24,078 stuff started happening around the house. Noises in the roof, 133 00:12:25,101 --> 00:12:29,537 and sounds coming from outside the window 134 00:12:29,538 --> 00:12:34,292 and other movements that seemed to come from Ali's old room. 135 00:12:35,778 --> 00:12:40,305 So, we re-hung the door to Ali's room, 136 00:12:40,306 --> 00:12:44,317 and we got a pest controller to come in and check for termites. 137 00:12:44,318 --> 00:12:46,683 But it didn't help at all, 138 00:12:46,684 --> 00:12:51,533 the door kept slamming and we still kept getting the noises from her room. 139 00:12:53,661 --> 00:12:56,151 There was just something weird about that house. 140 00:12:56,152 --> 00:12:59,097 It had a really strange feeling about it. 141 00:12:59,098 --> 00:13:02,897 I really can't explain to you what it was exactly, 142 00:13:02,898 --> 00:13:08,089 but you'd go in there and just have this bad feeling, like, in your gut. 143 00:13:17,384 --> 00:13:20,546 I started having these nightmares, 144 00:13:20,547 --> 00:13:24,317 and they were so distressing 145 00:13:24,318 --> 00:13:29,408 that sometimes I just wouldn't want to open my eyes. 146 00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:32,510 I'd woken up, but I didn't want to open my eyes. 147 00:13:34,535 --> 00:13:39,402 There was one particular one, it was quite vivid and recurring. 148 00:13:39,403 --> 00:13:44,238 Alice would come down the hall still dripping from the dam 149 00:13:44,239 --> 00:13:49,020 and just stand at the foot of our bed, just staring at us. 150 00:13:49,882 --> 00:13:55,398 It was quite terrifying, as I said, I didn't want to open my eyes. 151 00:13:59,224 --> 00:14:02,681 By early February my nightmares were getting so bad 152 00:14:02,682 --> 00:14:08,630 that I began to go for walks at night, sometimes for hours at a time, 153 00:14:08,631 --> 00:14:11,259 just so that I didn't have to go to bed at night 154 00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:14,020 and close my eyes and go to sleep. 155 00:14:17,342 --> 00:14:20,789 Sometimes I would actually go into people's houses. 156 00:14:21,313 --> 00:14:24,794 I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. 157 00:14:25,150 --> 00:14:30,359 I guess I really just wanted to be inside someone else's life for a while. 158 00:14:41,632 --> 00:14:44,690 Georgie, do you remember how Russell was doing at that time? 159 00:14:44,691 --> 00:14:49,465 Yeah, Russell was.. . He was working a lot at that point. 160 00:14:49,466 --> 00:14:52,986 I think that might have helped him with his grief. 161 00:14:53,376 --> 00:14:55,491 Send it through without any explanation. 162 00:14:55,912 --> 00:15:00,143 Russell and I met actually on the Gippsland Catchment project in '98 163 00:15:00,144 --> 00:15:02,274 and worked together on that. 164 00:15:02,275 --> 00:15:04,080 So, you guys have known each other for a few years? 165 00:15:04,081 --> 00:15:05,529 Yeah, a good few years, yeah. 166 00:15:08,658 --> 00:15:12,855 Do you remember how he was affected after Alice's death? What changed? 167 00:15:12,856 --> 00:15:17,364 It was work as normal, and that was troubling actually. 168 00:15:17,365 --> 00:15:20,947 I didn't really know what to say to him about that. 169 00:15:21,870 --> 00:15:23,461 You never spoke about it? 170 00:15:23,462 --> 00:15:26,529 Not really. Everyone grieves in their own way. 171 00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:31,419 And it wasn't really my place to be telling him how to feel. 172 00:15:32,446 --> 00:15:35,290 But I certainly... I certainly was concerned. 173 00:15:37,285 --> 00:15:40,504 I was really grateful that I had my work. 174 00:15:40,922 --> 00:15:44,015 And, I mean, I felt really guilty about that at the time. 175 00:15:44,016 --> 00:15:47,435 But, you know, I just wanted to get on with it. 176 00:15:51,699 --> 00:15:55,498 Then one night, in late February, 177 00:15:55,499 --> 00:15:59,255 I came home from work, and I was sitting in the kitchen 178 00:15:59,573 --> 00:16:02,656 and I heard a noise coming from Ali's room. 179 00:16:04,044 --> 00:16:08,446 So, I went into Ali's room, and I don't really know why, 180 00:16:08,447 --> 00:16:13,759 but I sort of found myself sitting down in the chair in front of the dresser. 181 00:16:15,855 --> 00:16:18,345 And before I could kind of work out what I was doing there, 182 00:16:18,346 --> 00:16:21,881 Ali walked in and she went over to her desk 183 00:16:21,882 --> 00:16:23,791 and started sharpening a pencil, 184 00:16:23,792 --> 00:16:29,812 and then she looked like she was checking for a text message on her phone. 185 00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:34,321 And, you know, I was completely freaked out. 186 00:16:35,474 --> 00:16:39,091 She was completely oblivious to my presence. 187 00:16:40,813 --> 00:16:44,475 And then I don't know what happened, I must have moved the bed 188 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:46,915 or, you know, squeaked my shoes or something, 189 00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:49,431 but she went completely rigid. 190 00:16:50,422 --> 00:16:55,108 And I knew then that she knew I was there. 191 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,488 And she slowly turned around and she looked me right in the eye fully for, 192 00:17:01,489 --> 00:17:04,659 you know, what felt like forever. 193 00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:10,400 And then she just came at me and stood up and said, "Get out! Get out!" 194 00:17:10,401 --> 00:17:14,751 And I just got up and went out as fast as I could. 195 00:17:16,113 --> 00:17:17,875 I could hear Russell crying. 196 00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:21,383 And he was here in the kitchen, Mathew and I both found him in here, 197 00:17:21,384 --> 00:17:23,611 and he was sobbing. 198 00:17:23,612 --> 00:17:26,030 He was absolutely inconsolable. 199 00:17:26,690 --> 00:17:29,817 Do you believe Russell when he says he saw a ghost? 200 00:17:29,818 --> 00:17:33,658 Yeah, I do. I believe he saw what he saw. 201 00:17:33,659 --> 00:17:38,644 And he wouldn't... He's not the kinda man to make something up. 202 00:17:39,102 --> 00:17:41,581 So, I believe he saw something. 203 00:17:42,872 --> 00:17:46,785 Whether it's a real ghost or not, I don't really know. 204 00:17:47,543 --> 00:17:49,590 But I'm sure he saw something. 205 00:18:07,395 --> 00:18:11,421 I remember trying to talk to members of the church 206 00:18:11,422 --> 00:18:15,185 about how to help June and how to help the Palmers. 207 00:18:15,904 --> 00:18:20,352 But there just didn't seem like there was anything we could do. 208 00:18:20,909 --> 00:18:24,844 I think part of the reason was because they weren't churchgoers. 209 00:18:24,845 --> 00:18:28,154 So, didn't know how to offer them comfort. 210 00:18:31,185 --> 00:18:34,165 I don't even know what June believes in. 211 00:18:35,189 --> 00:18:38,374 I found myself mostly concerned about Mathew. 212 00:18:39,626 --> 00:18:42,788 I guess because those two were always so close, 213 00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:45,444 I was worried how he would cope. 214 00:18:53,306 --> 00:18:56,753 I remember he was spending a lot more time alone. 215 00:18:58,544 --> 00:19:01,024 We were all worried about him. 216 00:19:04,350 --> 00:19:08,752 Mathew came in with some unusual bruises on his body. 217 00:19:08,753 --> 00:19:12,768 They were unusual in terms of their distribution and depth. 218 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,792 We obviously took a history, trying to exclude trauma, 219 00:19:17,793 --> 00:19:22,060 but there was certainly no history of trauma that he was able to give us. 220 00:19:22,061 --> 00:19:23,964 We tested him for vasculitis, 221 00:19:23,965 --> 00:19:28,153 and we also excluded any poisoning or toxins in his system. 222 00:19:28,673 --> 00:19:31,470 We were unable to turn up anything conclusive. 223 00:19:31,471 --> 00:19:37,526 And several weeks after this, the bruises just resolved spontaneously. 224 00:19:37,882 --> 00:19:41,829 And we were never able to really establish a cause for them. 225 00:19:44,455 --> 00:19:47,868 My name's Steve Wilkie. I'm Mathew's best friend. 226 00:19:48,225 --> 00:19:51,933 I usually stay at Mathew's house two or three times a week. 227 00:19:54,999 --> 00:20:01,085 We started a band together, so, we normally play music at my house. 228 00:20:02,173 --> 00:20:06,540 Mathew seems a bit quieter, but he was always pretty quiet, 229 00:20:06,541 --> 00:20:11,193 so, I guess there wasn't really any warning bells going off or anything. 230 00:20:11,781 --> 00:20:15,011 Well, I had heard about June going into people's houses. 231 00:20:15,012 --> 00:20:17,916 And Mathew never really seemed to want to talk about any of that. 232 00:20:17,917 --> 00:20:20,670 I never asked him about any of it. 233 00:20:26,128 --> 00:20:29,119 I know that he was always interested in photography. 234 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,721 And he was... 235 00:20:30,722 --> 00:20:34,712 At this time, he was starting to pursue it with more passion. 236 00:20:39,074 --> 00:20:43,635 Mathew came to me, he was very keen to find out anything about photography. 237 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:47,704 So, I was more than willing to help out, that's what I do. 238 00:20:47,705 --> 00:20:51,411 So, he was picking my brains about just about anything to do with it, 239 00:20:51,412 --> 00:20:55,102 from equipment, down to techniques, down to lighting, you know. 240 00:20:55,890 --> 00:20:59,667 But he was a great asset, so, I mean, eventually I employed him. 241 00:21:25,285 --> 00:21:28,014 Mathew, can you talk to me about the photographs 242 00:21:28,015 --> 00:21:31,171 of the backyard that you've been taking? 243 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,806 Yeah, basically I've taken that same photo 244 00:21:36,563 --> 00:21:41,199 with that composition for, I think, every 4 months for the past 4 years. 245 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,850 And it's just a photograph of the backyard. 246 00:21:43,902 --> 00:21:46,586 Looking out, you can see the hills in the distance. 247 00:21:46,739 --> 00:21:48,286 It's just like a little project 248 00:21:49,074 --> 00:21:51,189 that I set up for myself when we got here. 249 00:21:52,144 --> 00:21:56,193 And what was in the April 28th photograph that was different? 250 00:21:57,215 --> 00:22:02,129 Well, it's basically the same shot, 251 00:22:03,621 --> 00:22:08,672 but it would appear that Alice is standing against the fence. 252 00:22:16,768 --> 00:22:20,567 Do you remember what the reaction in the house was at the time? 253 00:22:20,568 --> 00:22:25,416 I wouldn't say the mood was good, but it was better than before. 254 00:22:26,144 --> 00:22:31,671 It was like.. . Like it gave us sort of something to focus on, I think. 255 00:22:31,672 --> 00:22:33,056 All of us. 256 00:22:36,953 --> 00:22:39,318 The photographs were taken on the 3rd of April, 257 00:22:39,319 --> 00:22:45,406 and they were developed on the 4th, and I looked at them, I think on the 5th. 258 00:22:46,162 --> 00:22:50,063 And looked at the dams and the water levels and I was quite happy. 259 00:22:50,064 --> 00:22:53,965 But it was only the following night that it was pointed out to me by my wife 260 00:22:53,966 --> 00:22:55,366 that there was something in the background 261 00:22:55,367 --> 00:22:58,088 in Norval Dam, this image came up. 262 00:23:11,821 --> 00:23:16,086 When I first looked at the photograph, I didn't know what to make of it. 263 00:23:16,087 --> 00:23:22,346 The image was quite unsettling because it certainly looked like Alice. 264 00:23:23,698 --> 00:23:27,076 It was an incredibly discomforting image. 265 00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:35,186 And I became convinced that Alice was still alive. 266 00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:47,026 I didn't have any rational explanation for who was in those photos. 267 00:23:48,188 --> 00:23:52,521 But I did know something about Alice that June didn't. 268 00:23:52,522 --> 00:23:57,644 I'd seen Alice's body. I didn't think she was alive. 269 00:23:59,199 --> 00:24:01,110 I knew she wasn't. 270 00:24:01,802 --> 00:24:04,986 I became convinced that Russell had made a mistake. 271 00:24:06,139 --> 00:24:09,950 He himself said that it didn't look like anybody anymore. 272 00:24:12,378 --> 00:24:14,311 June was so convinced that I'd made a mistake 273 00:24:14,312 --> 00:24:17,246 that I actually started to have doubts myself. 274 00:24:17,247 --> 00:24:21,910 I started to think maybe I'd made my mind up 275 00:24:21,911 --> 00:24:25,649 that it was Alice's body before I'd looked, 276 00:24:25,650 --> 00:24:29,921 and that the circumstances were so compelling for me, 277 00:24:29,922 --> 00:24:33,840 that I'd decided that it was her. 278 00:24:36,234 --> 00:24:40,750 More than three months after the funeral of Ararat teenager Alice Palmer, 279 00:24:40,772 --> 00:24:43,069 her grieving parents formally requested 280 00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:45,825 her body be exhumed from the general cemetery. 281 00:24:45,911 --> 00:24:48,470 There has been some contention from the Palmer family 282 00:24:48,471 --> 00:24:52,073 about the accuracy of the original body identification. 283 00:24:52,074 --> 00:24:56,802 June and Russell Palmer were adamant that DNA testing be carried out. 284 00:24:56,954 --> 00:25:00,196 They just couldn't be sure that the body they identified was indeed Alice. 285 00:25:00,324 --> 00:25:01,551 And today, almost... 286 00:25:01,552 --> 00:25:06,186 Alice's body was exhumed in the presence of the funeral director, Dr. Slatter, 287 00:25:06,187 --> 00:25:09,492 and there was a representative from the coroner's office also. 288 00:25:09,493 --> 00:25:12,295 And it was then transported to Ararat Base Hospital 289 00:25:12,296 --> 00:25:14,927 where they took the DNA samples. 290 00:25:14,928 --> 00:25:18,417 And she stayed there until the results came back. 291 00:25:22,212 --> 00:25:28,128 A few days later we received a copy of the coroner's preliminary report, 292 00:25:28,718 --> 00:25:34,167 and Alice's identity was confirmed by the DNA sample match. 293 00:25:36,392 --> 00:25:40,623 It was only after they'd confirmed that it was Alice's body 294 00:25:40,624 --> 00:25:46,077 that I realized how much that I'd invested in the possibility of it not being her. 295 00:25:47,302 --> 00:25:51,362 You know, I can't tell you how much I wanted there to have been 296 00:25:51,363 --> 00:25:54,921 a terrible mistake, even if it had been mine. 297 00:25:56,411 --> 00:26:00,539 Really, really wanted there to have been somebody else's kid in that dam. 298 00:26:00,540 --> 00:26:03,139 A runaway, a murder victim. 299 00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:06,879 Just anybody else's, just as long as it wasn't my kid. 300 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,536 Just as long as it wasn't Alice. 301 00:26:27,842 --> 00:26:29,456 Yes, it is. 302 00:26:31,344 --> 00:26:32,856 Stop it. 303 00:26:42,222 --> 00:26:43,962 Oh, my God. 304 00:26:52,865 --> 00:26:56,551 Alice was reburied two days later, on the 7th of June. 305 00:26:58,737 --> 00:27:03,981 But the question remained, who or what was in those photos? 306 00:27:25,897 --> 00:27:29,195 Well, I continued to hear things, and.. . 307 00:27:29,196 --> 00:27:32,201 - What did you hear? - I was hearing noises. Sort of.. . 308 00:27:32,202 --> 00:27:35,362 They didn't really relent. I kept hearing noises in the hallway. 309 00:27:35,363 --> 00:27:38,271 So, I thought, "Well, I'll just set up a camera 310 00:27:38,272 --> 00:27:42,528 "to see if I see anything, see something". 311 00:28:07,069 --> 00:28:13,883 The first night I looked back and there was footage of a figure 312 00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:20,890 moving from the lounge room across the hallway to the front door. 313 00:28:32,727 --> 00:28:35,559 You're on Voice FM, 8/02. 314 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,532 I'm Helen Bath and we're taking calls with psychic consultant, Ray Kemeney. 315 00:28:40,533 --> 00:28:42,592 Next we have Nadia on the line, Ray. 316 00:28:42,593 --> 00:28:45,833 Hi, Nadia, how are you? What can I do for you? 317 00:28:45,834 --> 00:28:49,000 My question is about career, and I've also got a question about family. 318 00:28:49,001 --> 00:28:54,570 It was around about that time I decided to seek out the advice of Ray Kemeney. 319 00:28:54,571 --> 00:28:58,083 I had heard Ray on the radio over the years, 320 00:28:58,084 --> 00:29:02,713 and opinion was quite divided, some thought he was the real deal, 321 00:29:02,714 --> 00:29:04,689 others were unconvinced. 322 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:08,569 - Next we have Annie on the line. - Hi, Annie, how are you? 323 00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:11,228 I'm fine, thanks, Ray. Thank you for taking my call. 324 00:29:11,229 --> 00:29:14,038 My pleasure. What can I do for you? 325 00:29:14,634 --> 00:29:17,512 I just wanted a general reading. 326 00:29:18,137 --> 00:29:20,685 General not just medical. 327 00:29:21,074 --> 00:29:22,938 I'm Hungarian by birth. 328 00:29:22,939 --> 00:29:25,284 My parents came out here when I was quite young. 329 00:29:26,446 --> 00:29:30,040 I've got a 15-year-old daughter who lives with her mother in South Australia. 330 00:29:30,041 --> 00:29:34,415 My Christian name is actually Schultz, but I changed it to Ray. 331 00:29:34,416 --> 00:29:38,002 I think it's a more trustworthy name for a psychic. 332 00:29:39,859 --> 00:29:42,542 Australia's wog psychic of choice. 333 00:29:45,630 --> 00:29:47,028 Most of what I do is... 334 00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:50,295 When I'm dealing with the sick or the dying, 335 00:29:50,296 --> 00:29:53,451 which I guess probably fits about a third of my clients, 336 00:29:54,272 --> 00:29:57,604 is to allow them the possibility that death is not the bitter end, 337 00:29:57,605 --> 00:30:01,735 that it's not the full stop. 338 00:30:01,736 --> 00:30:03,779 Which is a consolation that I'm quite happy to give them 339 00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:08,694 considering the fact that what happens after death is up for grabs anyway. 340 00:30:09,220 --> 00:30:14,430 There's somebody very close to you, someone you haven't seen for a while, 341 00:30:15,426 --> 00:30:18,656 someone who is going to come back into your life. 342 00:30:18,657 --> 00:30:21,607 Someone who'll be of great comfort to you. 343 00:30:23,567 --> 00:30:25,796 Anyone that fits that bill? 344 00:30:25,797 --> 00:30:28,030 Yeah, I can think of someone. 345 00:30:28,031 --> 00:30:30,799 Look, I won't lie to you, Annie, I can see obstacles ahead of you... 346 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,899 but I think that this person who is coming back to you... 347 00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:38,391 is gonna make a great difference and will be of great solace to you. 348 00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:41,365 Thanks, Ray. 349 00:30:42,252 --> 00:30:44,026 See you, Annie. 350 00:30:59,902 --> 00:31:01,894 Where I come from, when someone dies, 351 00:31:01,895 --> 00:31:03,894 they block out all the mirrors in the house... 352 00:31:03,895 --> 00:31:07,419 to stop the... the dead from finding their way back. 353 00:31:08,243 --> 00:31:11,121 It's things like that, that make a difference. 354 00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:20,999 Hi, Annie. I'm Ray. 355 00:31:33,067 --> 00:31:35,147 You're gonna die, Annie. 356 00:31:36,536 --> 00:31:39,778 It's just the start of something else, all right? 357 00:31:40,907 --> 00:31:43,921 - Thank you. - It's all right. 358 00:31:44,811 --> 00:31:46,153 Okay. 359 00:31:50,217 --> 00:31:53,447 I liked Ray immediately, but he wasn't what I expected. 360 00:31:53,448 --> 00:31:58,386 I don't know what I really did expect, but there was nothing kinda spooky... 361 00:31:58,387 --> 00:32:00,132 or fake about him. 362 00:32:10,903 --> 00:32:13,212 Okay. Are we ready? 363 00:32:16,542 --> 00:32:17,940 I want you to close your eyes.. . 364 00:32:17,941 --> 00:32:20,273 I usually video tape my sessions... 365 00:32:20,274 --> 00:32:23,711 so that they can be reviewed later by the clients, 366 00:32:23,712 --> 00:32:28,024 especially when there's elements of trance or hypnotism involved. 367 00:32:28,486 --> 00:32:31,420 I keep one copy for myself, one copy for them. 368 00:32:31,421 --> 00:32:33,263 Better to be safe than sorry. 369 00:32:33,691 --> 00:32:36,842 Okay, so you're standing outside your house. 370 00:32:37,328 --> 00:32:39,375 Tell me what you see. 371 00:32:44,035 --> 00:32:45,616 My house. 372 00:32:46,104 --> 00:32:50,836 It's a white house. I'm walking towards the front door. 373 00:32:50,837 --> 00:32:51,966 Okay. 374 00:32:51,967 --> 00:32:55,101 Now, I want you to go inside the house. 375 00:32:55,102 --> 00:32:57,236 I want you to move slowly through the house, 376 00:32:57,237 --> 00:32:59,964 I want you to describe what you see, 377 00:33:01,852 --> 00:33:04,935 where you are, just give me a guided tour. 378 00:33:16,832 --> 00:33:20,824 Okay, I'm walking down the hallway... 379 00:33:20,825 --> 00:33:22,984 towards Alice's room. 380 00:33:28,144 --> 00:33:29,610 What's there? 381 00:33:29,611 --> 00:33:33,592 I can see Alice's shoes outside her room. 382 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:39,197 And what does that mean for you? June? 383 00:33:42,625 --> 00:33:46,310 She always used to leave her sneakers outside her room. 384 00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:52,194 So, I want you to go inside her room now, 385 00:33:52,195 --> 00:33:54,883 open the door and just move inside. 386 00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:59,846 You feel safe enough to go into Alice's room? 387 00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:04,559 - Okay. - Now open the door. 388 00:34:08,549 --> 00:34:10,824 I'm going inside her room. 389 00:34:25,132 --> 00:34:27,816 You can see something, can't you? 390 00:34:28,702 --> 00:34:31,078 Tell me what you see, June. 391 00:34:32,705 --> 00:34:34,183 She's.. . 392 00:34:36,142 --> 00:34:40,829 Alice is sitting in the wicker chair at the end of her bed. 393 00:34:49,888 --> 00:34:51,628 She looks sad. 394 00:34:57,129 --> 00:34:59,961 I first met Ray when June brought him home for dinner... 395 00:34:59,962 --> 00:35:02,842 the night of her first consultation. 396 00:35:03,869 --> 00:35:05,859 And, yeah, I'm completely indifferent to psychics, 397 00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:08,734 I don't really have a position on them at all. 398 00:35:08,735 --> 00:35:11,900 I don't really want them to come round for dinner, mind you, 399 00:35:11,901 --> 00:35:14,354 but, you know, I didn't want to upset June either. 400 00:35:16,148 --> 00:35:19,138 He was a pleasant sort of a bloke, he wasn't ooky-spooky at all. 401 00:35:19,139 --> 00:35:21,696 And I was on my best behavior. 402 00:35:22,553 --> 00:35:25,385 A few days later, maybe a week later, 403 00:35:25,386 --> 00:35:29,323 I suggested to the family that we hold a séance. 404 00:35:29,324 --> 00:35:33,977 June was really keen, but I remember Russell just flat out refused. 405 00:35:34,732 --> 00:35:37,266 I think Mathew finally talked his dad around. 406 00:35:37,267 --> 00:35:41,317 Mathew, how did you feel about having a séance held in your house? 407 00:35:43,373 --> 00:35:48,674 At the time I was actually kind of interested, sort of curious. 408 00:35:48,675 --> 00:35:52,726 I don't think Dad was thrilled about the idea. 409 00:35:53,049 --> 00:35:57,702 But, yeah, I thought it would be interesting. 410 00:35:58,054 --> 00:36:00,419 And I suggested we film it, 411 00:36:00,420 --> 00:36:03,856 and I recorded it with just our video camera, 412 00:36:03,857 --> 00:36:05,667 which is the PC9. 413 00:36:09,131 --> 00:36:12,214 I'm getting a strong presence in the room. 414 00:36:12,768 --> 00:36:14,645 In the house. 415 00:36:17,606 --> 00:36:20,972 I think we all thought that the séance was a failure. 416 00:36:20,973 --> 00:36:25,978 Ray didn't really come up with anything, like, with any signs or anything, 417 00:36:25,979 --> 00:36:30,107 so, after about an hour or so, we called it quits, 418 00:36:30,108 --> 00:36:32,413 and it wasn't until the next day... 419 00:36:32,414 --> 00:36:37,423 that Mathew was reviewing the footage... 420 00:36:37,424 --> 00:36:40,370 that there was an image of Alice. 421 00:36:40,995 --> 00:36:43,543 Make your presence known to us. 422 00:37:03,650 --> 00:37:07,927 The new footage was completely different to the hallway footage. 423 00:37:08,822 --> 00:37:13,735 For one, it was significantly more detailed, so it was less ambiguous. 424 00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:17,160 And it was impossible to dismiss it... 425 00:37:17,161 --> 00:37:23,145 as a coincidence of shadow play and digital noise. 426 00:37:25,304 --> 00:37:31,151 There was something inexplicable in our house, that was beyond doubt. 427 00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:39,797 I was concerned. This was pretty unfamiliar territory for me. 428 00:37:41,453 --> 00:37:44,000 I've never seen a ghost before. 429 00:38:01,572 --> 00:38:06,873 Ray got Mathew to help him set up 3 permanent cameras inside the house... 430 00:38:06,874 --> 00:38:11,392 recording in time-lapse configurations 24 hours a day. 431 00:38:13,083 --> 00:38:18,669 There'd been a lot of speculation about Ray and what he was doing there. 432 00:38:19,256 --> 00:38:21,086 I mean, when people don't know... 433 00:38:21,087 --> 00:38:25,401 that, of course, leads to a lot of talk and a lot of speculation. 434 00:38:25,696 --> 00:38:28,789 I had heard rumors throughout July of video images... 435 00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:32,277 purporting to be of an apparition in the house. 436 00:38:32,902 --> 00:38:36,644 But I must say I was skeptical as to their legitimacy. 437 00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:41,686 - And your view on Ray? - Also very skeptical. 438 00:38:42,478 --> 00:38:44,775 I think they had me as some kind of Rasputin figure... 439 00:38:44,776 --> 00:38:47,406 mesmerizing the Palmers, stealing their money, 440 00:38:47,407 --> 00:38:49,666 doctoring the photos of Alice. 441 00:38:52,921 --> 00:38:56,607 Mathew, in particular, seemed to be really struggling. 442 00:39:02,464 --> 00:39:06,957 I thought I might be able to help this boy by being there, you know. 443 00:39:06,958 --> 00:39:09,468 - Good one. Beautiful. - Well done. 444 00:39:09,469 --> 00:39:12,840 That said, my chief motivation was professional. 445 00:39:12,841 --> 00:39:14,205 Something was happening inside that house... 446 00:39:14,206 --> 00:39:16,892 and I wanted to find out what it was. 447 00:40:12,164 --> 00:40:15,008 What was your reaction to these images? 448 00:40:16,868 --> 00:40:19,586 We were completely gobsmacked by them. 449 00:40:21,073 --> 00:40:23,905 But before we had time to, you know, take in what that meant... 450 00:40:23,906 --> 00:40:26,283 the Withers' video came out. 451 00:40:27,144 --> 00:40:28,440 - Go on. - Is it good? 452 00:40:28,441 --> 00:40:30,696 - Yeah, it's great. - Can I have a look? 453 00:40:31,382 --> 00:40:32,746 Yeah, be careful. 454 00:40:32,747 --> 00:40:36,946 Cathy and Doug Withers were at the dam on April the 3rd, 455 00:40:36,947 --> 00:40:39,989 the same day that the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 456 00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:43,003 - Be careful. - What do you think I'm going to do? 457 00:40:43,594 --> 00:40:49,214 - Give it back. Be careful. - It's safe in my hands, babe. 458 00:40:52,269 --> 00:40:55,716 It was a couple of months later, the end of July, 459 00:40:57,073 --> 00:41:02,476 when we were looking at our footage that we'd shot down at the dam... 460 00:41:02,477 --> 00:41:05,138 and came across... 461 00:41:05,139 --> 00:41:10,266 A figure in the background, which we identified as Bob Smeet, 462 00:41:11,121 --> 00:41:13,553 which interested us 'cause there's... 463 00:41:13,554 --> 00:41:17,614 Yeah, clearly, we didn't... We sorta went, "It was the same day he was there... 464 00:41:17,615 --> 00:41:20,991 "when he captured the image that people have been talking about". 465 00:41:20,992 --> 00:41:24,122 So, then we went through all our footage... 466 00:41:24,123 --> 00:41:27,292 to see if we perhaps might have captured that figure as well. 467 00:41:27,293 --> 00:41:30,986 - Maybe the camera had seen what Bob saw. - Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:41:31,707 --> 00:41:34,937 And we did find a figure in the background 469 00:41:34,938 --> 00:41:38,968 like the image that had been described in his picture. 470 00:41:38,969 --> 00:41:40,843 And then we looked more closely... 471 00:41:40,844 --> 00:41:46,694 - and Doug zoomed in on it. - Yeah, I got right in on the computer. 472 00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:50,981 And from what, you know, could have looked like a female figure... 473 00:41:50,982 --> 00:41:53,753 from a long way away, 474 00:41:53,754 --> 00:41:55,658 up close and tight, 475 00:41:55,659 --> 00:42:00,631 you could see that it definitely was neither female nor Alice. 476 00:42:00,632 --> 00:42:02,440 It was Mathew. 477 00:42:04,838 --> 00:42:07,305 - Do you guys believe in ghosts? - No. 478 00:42:07,306 --> 00:42:09,524 - No. No. - No. 479 00:42:11,878 --> 00:42:15,313 Well, this is where I was when the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 480 00:42:15,314 --> 00:42:20,546 I was wearing Alice's jacket, and I looked up and I saw a man on the hill, 481 00:42:20,547 --> 00:42:22,849 who turned out to be Bob Smeet. 482 00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:26,734 And I didn't wanna be in a photo. 483 00:42:28,161 --> 00:42:31,323 So, I walked off through the bush. 484 00:42:31,324 --> 00:42:35,765 What I didn't see was there was also a couple over there filming, 485 00:42:35,766 --> 00:42:37,677 who turned out to be the Withers. 486 00:42:41,874 --> 00:42:44,865 When the Withers' thing came out, Dad came to me... 487 00:42:44,866 --> 00:42:48,310 and asked me if I had been involved in anything else. 488 00:42:48,311 --> 00:42:52,190 And I didn't wanna lie to him, so I told him. 489 00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,721 And I explained to Dad that I was responsible... 490 00:43:02,722 --> 00:43:04,886 for the image of Alice in the hallway... 491 00:43:04,887 --> 00:43:10,491 and the bedroom, and that I created the April 28th backyard photo... 492 00:43:10,492 --> 00:43:12,615 and the séance image. 493 00:43:12,937 --> 00:43:14,767 I just told him what I'd done. 494 00:43:14,768 --> 00:43:16,100 Okay, so.. . 495 00:43:16,101 --> 00:43:19,939 I got two photos, a photo of Alice and the backyard... 496 00:43:19,940 --> 00:43:23,240 and composited the images. 497 00:43:23,241 --> 00:43:25,473 That's a photo that I took of Alice. 498 00:43:25,474 --> 00:43:27,778 Mum kept talking about... 499 00:43:27,779 --> 00:43:29,875 She was always talking about getting Alice exhumed, 500 00:43:29,876 --> 00:43:34,651 and she was really keen on this idea that Dad had misidentified her body. 501 00:43:34,652 --> 00:43:37,920 And so I knew that without more evidence it wasn't going to happen, 502 00:43:37,921 --> 00:43:40,769 so I made the photograph. 503 00:43:45,067 --> 00:43:47,717 I just used an old video of Alice... 504 00:43:49,272 --> 00:43:53,002 and I played that on the TV. 505 00:43:53,003 --> 00:43:54,905 I had the TV up on the book case... 506 00:43:54,906 --> 00:43:57,843 and it was as simple as rotating the mirror... 507 00:43:57,844 --> 00:44:01,440 so that the reflection of the TV came up in it. 508 00:44:01,441 --> 00:44:04,041 And obviously the mirror's quite small, 509 00:44:04,042 --> 00:44:05,916 so it cropped out the edges of the television... 510 00:44:05,917 --> 00:44:08,478 and then, yeah, I just filmed that. 511 00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:10,581 Same with the kitchen and the bedroom. 512 00:44:10,582 --> 00:44:15,369 What you see basically is Alice on the television in the mirror. 513 00:44:24,873 --> 00:44:28,114 Like, it wasn't about trying to trick people. 514 00:44:29,310 --> 00:44:32,574 I guess it was like something was better than nothing. 515 00:44:32,575 --> 00:44:36,889 Do you think that what you did ultimately made it worse for June? 516 00:44:43,390 --> 00:44:45,164 I think that.. . 517 00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:50,725 Yeah. Yeah, I probably did make it harder for her. 518 00:44:50,726 --> 00:44:53,778 But, I mean, that wasn't my intention. 519 00:44:56,437 --> 00:45:01,714 I'm not quite so sure about his reasons. 520 00:45:02,442 --> 00:45:04,853 I don't know that I... 521 00:45:06,312 --> 00:45:07,893 totally... 522 00:45:11,618 --> 00:45:14,949 I don't want to say I don't totally believe what he said, 523 00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:19,138 but I'm just not convinced... 524 00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:22,332 that he really knows why he did it. 525 00:45:28,834 --> 00:45:31,734 When it all came out, people wanted to do stories and books... 526 00:45:31,735 --> 00:45:35,955 and women's magazines, the whole lot just went pear-shaped. 527 00:45:37,843 --> 00:45:39,935 Look, we just didn't know how to handle it. 528 00:45:39,936 --> 00:45:44,448 I mean, you know, we had to protect Matty, we had to protect ourselves, 529 00:45:44,449 --> 00:45:47,244 we had to protect Ali's memory. 530 00:45:47,245 --> 00:45:50,081 And we just didn't have any experience... 531 00:45:50,082 --> 00:45:54,351 of dealing with all this interest in something that was incredibly personal... 532 00:45:54,352 --> 00:45:57,643 that people wanted to make incredibly public. 533 00:45:58,229 --> 00:46:01,788 I mean, the Palmers weren't coping well at all at that point. 534 00:46:01,789 --> 00:46:05,607 And things were very bad, they were doing it tough. 535 00:46:07,604 --> 00:46:10,823 This was like the end of hope for all of us, 536 00:46:11,174 --> 00:46:13,392 but especially for June. 537 00:46:14,778 --> 00:46:17,929 She just really wasn't ready to let Ali go. 538 00:46:21,418 --> 00:46:25,104 She just needed to hang on to her a little bit longer. 539 00:46:26,489 --> 00:46:31,608 And I don't think she would admit it, but she was devastated. 540 00:46:42,638 --> 00:46:44,229 She's an interesting girl. 541 00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:48,185 She seemed to not get on with June so well. 542 00:46:48,343 --> 00:46:50,036 I thought they actually were quite alike. 543 00:46:50,037 --> 00:46:53,330 It was interesting that the two of them might not get on so well. 544 00:46:56,217 --> 00:46:58,810 They always seemed very much alike... 545 00:46:58,811 --> 00:47:03,766 and you could see that Alice took a lot after June. 546 00:47:04,792 --> 00:47:09,308 But, also, other things had become clear as well after Alice's death. 547 00:47:09,330 --> 00:47:12,423 That perhaps a bit of the sense of the private 548 00:47:12,424 --> 00:47:15,617 that they both shared. 549 00:47:16,037 --> 00:47:17,914 Thanks for that. 550 00:47:18,306 --> 00:47:21,922 June was... Well, still is... 551 00:47:22,576 --> 00:47:24,372 She keeps to herself a lot, 552 00:47:24,373 --> 00:47:28,994 and it became clear that that was happening with Alice, too. 553 00:47:30,417 --> 00:47:31,678 They had the sense of privacy. 554 00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:34,185 The sense that there is their own private life... 555 00:47:34,186 --> 00:47:39,770 that they will either choose to share or to not share, I guess. 556 00:47:45,097 --> 00:47:49,658 It's wonderful when your children come and that new expression that you have. 557 00:47:49,659 --> 00:47:53,670 But as a mother, you've still always got doubts... 558 00:47:53,671 --> 00:47:58,517 that you're not doing enough or you're not doing the right thing. 559 00:48:00,946 --> 00:48:04,632 I partly blame myself, that's come from me. 560 00:48:05,384 --> 00:48:07,829 Maybe it came from my mother. 561 00:48:09,789 --> 00:48:12,063 I've never been able to... 562 00:48:14,626 --> 00:48:18,812 I've never been able to give myself over wholly to... 563 00:48:19,631 --> 00:48:21,109 To June. 564 00:48:22,767 --> 00:48:25,986 I feel June is a little like that, too, 565 00:48:26,737 --> 00:48:30,320 that she couldn't give herself wholly to Alice. 566 00:48:38,282 --> 00:48:41,626 I hope that Alice did know how much I loved her. 567 00:48:42,486 --> 00:48:46,297 I guess I held something back a little as she grew older. 568 00:48:48,492 --> 00:48:52,542 That would be the saddest thing, to think she might not know. 569 00:49:01,737 --> 00:49:05,194 Ray suggested that Mathew accompany him... 570 00:49:05,195 --> 00:49:09,266 on one of his country Victorian tours, 571 00:49:09,267 --> 00:49:11,574 where he was doing consultations, 572 00:49:11,575 --> 00:49:14,694 and Mathew jumped at the chance. 573 00:49:16,117 --> 00:49:20,360 - Breakfast. Your shout, I think. - No, I think it's your shout. 574 00:49:36,071 --> 00:49:41,554 I think I realized when I was away how much I missed Alice... 575 00:49:42,344 --> 00:49:46,791 and that I was never going to be able to speak to her again. 576 00:49:47,848 --> 00:49:52,409 I guess that's something that all of Ray's clients are coming to terms with. 577 00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:56,854 You know, they want to talk to someone or make contact with someone they've lost, 578 00:49:56,855 --> 00:50:00,007 and so did I. 579 00:50:01,095 --> 00:50:05,747 So, I was sort of one of Ray's clients in a way as well. 580 00:50:11,137 --> 00:50:12,194 - No. - Can I chuck it at you? 581 00:50:12,195 --> 00:50:14,171 - No. - Let's see what happens. 582 00:50:14,172 --> 00:50:15,228 Well, what do you think is gonna happen? 583 00:50:15,229 --> 00:50:17,275 It's gonna hit me and then I'm gonna get angry. 584 00:50:17,276 --> 00:50:19,618 That's what's gonna happen. No! 585 00:50:20,513 --> 00:50:22,287 Watch yourself. 586 00:50:22,515 --> 00:50:24,995 What are you doing in my room? 587 00:50:25,251 --> 00:50:26,729 I don't know. 588 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,478 Get out! 589 00:50:51,108 --> 00:50:53,075 When me and Ray went on the tour, 590 00:50:53,076 --> 00:50:57,296 we left the two rented cameras where they were, in the hallway. 591 00:50:57,949 --> 00:51:01,396 I was sure there was still something in the house. 592 00:51:02,353 --> 00:51:04,616 And obviously, 'cause we were away for the 3 days, 593 00:51:04,617 --> 00:51:07,986 you know, we couldn't change the tapes or anything. 594 00:51:07,987 --> 00:51:12,893 So, we knew we were probably gonna get about, like, a day and a half of footage. 595 00:51:12,894 --> 00:51:15,182 But we left them running... 596 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:19,336 and got back on August 22nd, 597 00:51:19,337 --> 00:51:22,522 at which point we checked the tapes. 598 00:51:47,296 --> 00:51:51,755 Only Russell and I were in the house when these images were recorded, 599 00:51:51,756 --> 00:51:55,281 Mathew couldn't have had anything to do with them. 600 00:51:56,672 --> 00:52:00,619 They seemed to prove that there was a ghost in our house. 601 00:52:01,577 --> 00:52:03,317 Alice's ghost. 602 00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:13,760 Do you believe in ghosts? 603 00:52:14,922 --> 00:52:16,696 Didn't used to, 604 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,711 but it's a hard thing to prove or disprove. 605 00:52:27,434 --> 00:52:29,015 I think.. . 606 00:52:30,404 --> 00:52:33,555 Yeah, sometimes I think maybe they do exist. 607 00:52:34,808 --> 00:52:37,185 There are ghosts everywhere. 608 00:52:37,377 --> 00:52:39,356 It's a scary world. 609 00:52:40,580 --> 00:52:41,807 I don't know why it's important. 610 00:52:41,808 --> 00:52:45,146 It's like how it helps people, like, dealing with her loss, 611 00:52:45,147 --> 00:52:48,631 like making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 612 00:52:53,393 --> 00:52:55,986 It threw a question mark over everything. 613 00:52:55,987 --> 00:52:59,997 I went back and reviewed all the footage that had come before, 614 00:52:59,998 --> 00:53:04,275 all the material taken inside the house following Alice's death. 615 00:53:10,009 --> 00:53:14,741 It was while I was looking at Mathew's June 13th hallway material again, 616 00:53:14,742 --> 00:53:17,998 that I noticed something in the image. 617 00:53:18,917 --> 00:53:20,076 There was a second figure, 618 00:53:20,077 --> 00:53:23,142 not Mathew in the hallway but someone else, 619 00:53:23,143 --> 00:53:26,099 squatting in the dark in Alice's room. 620 00:53:26,858 --> 00:53:28,973 At first I thought it was Alice. 621 00:53:30,628 --> 00:53:35,281 Then I realized it was our neighbor, Brett Toohey. 622 00:53:43,408 --> 00:53:47,638 What was this man doing in my house, in my daughter's room... 623 00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:50,555 more than six months after her death? 624 00:53:57,020 --> 00:54:01,764 When I found Alice's safe, I realized exactly why he'd been there. 625 00:54:05,761 --> 00:54:08,138 He was looking for the tape. 626 00:54:10,867 --> 00:54:12,448 That's it. 627 00:54:39,661 --> 00:54:42,094 But it was such a.. . It wasn't a very nice day. 628 00:54:42,095 --> 00:54:43,745 Yes. 629 00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:46,166 - You did a smoke ring. - Yes. 630 00:54:46,167 --> 00:54:48,929 You two getting nice and cozy without me. 631 00:54:48,930 --> 00:54:53,029 Alice began babysitting for the Tooheys in 2002, 632 00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:56,371 and she continued for the next two and a half years. 633 00:54:56,372 --> 00:54:59,958 The Tooheys' two boys were five and nine years old. 634 00:55:02,249 --> 00:55:07,334 I literally just couldn't believe my eyes. 635 00:55:11,625 --> 00:55:14,343 It just made me feel so sad. 636 00:55:20,568 --> 00:55:24,263 As far as I'm concerned, the Tooheys were complicit in Ali's death. 637 00:55:24,264 --> 00:55:27,737 I believe that if it hadn't been for them, she would have reached out to us. 638 00:55:27,738 --> 00:55:30,206 She wouldn't have felt guilty. 639 00:55:30,207 --> 00:55:33,689 She wouldn't have felt the burden of that secret. 640 00:55:34,380 --> 00:55:36,962 She wouldn't have been isolated. 641 00:55:40,219 --> 00:55:43,029 How do you feel towards Brett now? 642 00:55:43,455 --> 00:55:47,163 If he was around the corner, I'd probably throttle him. 643 00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:51,517 He seemed like a nice guy. You know, he was nice. 644 00:55:51,518 --> 00:55:57,547 We'd speak and he was never like, you know, nasty or anything. 645 00:55:57,703 --> 00:56:01,366 He had a pool at his place and usually... 646 00:56:01,367 --> 00:56:02,366 We used to swim there sometimes. 647 00:56:02,367 --> 00:56:03,464 - Yeah. - During the summer. 648 00:56:03,465 --> 00:56:06,693 So, usually we just go to his place and have a swim there. 649 00:56:07,813 --> 00:56:09,006 I was really bewildered... 650 00:56:09,007 --> 00:56:11,605 - about, you know, what happened. - Yeah. 651 00:56:11,606 --> 00:56:14,013 It took a lot just to realize... 652 00:56:14,014 --> 00:56:17,212 'Cause, you know, I had no idea that Alice would... 653 00:56:17,213 --> 00:56:18,652 No, be with somebody, I know. 654 00:56:18,653 --> 00:56:20,622 Yeah, it was like a complete surprise. 655 00:56:20,623 --> 00:56:24,592 Like, we just didn't think, you know, she'd do something like that. 656 00:56:24,593 --> 00:56:26,004 Yeah. 657 00:56:28,865 --> 00:56:31,709 Why do you think Alice had the tape? 658 00:56:33,603 --> 00:56:35,934 Because she didn't want them to have it. 659 00:56:35,935 --> 00:56:39,419 - Why is that? - She didn't trust them anymore, I think. 660 00:56:41,344 --> 00:56:44,893 They must've been really desperate to get that tape. 661 00:56:45,215 --> 00:56:48,764 From the moment that they'd heard of Alice's death, 662 00:56:49,052 --> 00:56:53,432 they would've been living in this constant fear of being found out. 663 00:56:56,593 --> 00:57:00,676 I'm glad he couldn't find it. I'm glad he knows it's not over. 664 00:57:04,667 --> 00:57:07,294 I had a lot of personal dealings with the Palmers during this time... 665 00:57:07,295 --> 00:57:09,199 as part of the investigating team... 666 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,888 trying to locate Brett and Marissa Tooheyand family. 667 00:57:13,542 --> 00:57:18,273 And initially we were optimistic that they would be found... 668 00:57:18,274 --> 00:57:20,359 and charges laid. 669 00:57:20,648 --> 00:57:23,332 But, unfortunately, the leads that we were working with... 670 00:57:23,851 --> 00:57:27,468 soon dried up, and so the investigation stalled. 671 00:57:28,456 --> 00:57:32,050 So, the police's advice to us was that even if the Tooheys were caught, 672 00:57:32,051 --> 00:57:33,854 they would get off with a suspended sentence... 673 00:57:33,855 --> 00:57:36,725 by claiming that the sex was consensual, 674 00:57:36,726 --> 00:57:41,212 which was, they claimed, you know, supported by the video evidence. 675 00:57:41,235 --> 00:57:45,012 Jason, did you know about Alice's involvement with Brett? 676 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,056 No. No one did. 677 00:57:50,043 --> 00:57:52,022 Obviously I didn't. 678 00:57:52,446 --> 00:57:55,597 We wouldn't be going out if I did. It was.. . No. 679 00:57:56,850 --> 00:58:00,831 I thought we were... I thought we were pretty good. 680 00:58:11,931 --> 00:58:15,014 It just left so many unanswered questions. 681 00:58:15,968 --> 00:58:18,197 Why was she involved with him? 682 00:58:18,198 --> 00:58:21,102 When did the relationship begin? 683 00:58:21,103 --> 00:58:23,948 Was she in love with either of them? 684 00:58:25,745 --> 00:58:27,656 I just don't know. 685 00:58:30,983 --> 00:58:35,397 The Tooheys sold their house and moved, 6 months after Alice died. 686 00:58:45,096 --> 00:58:47,075 Alice kept secrets. 687 00:58:47,665 --> 00:58:51,578 She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 688 00:58:53,404 --> 00:58:56,201 Which does change the way that you see somebody, I suppose, 689 00:58:56,202 --> 00:59:00,152 when you realize that they did hide things from you a bit. 690 00:59:01,345 --> 00:59:05,940 I think I knew one Alice and maybe her mum knew another, 691 00:59:05,941 --> 00:59:10,032 and there was another one again that none of us knew maybe. 692 00:59:24,368 --> 00:59:27,699 I found Ray's business card taped to Alice's diary... 693 00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:31,319 on the page marked 12th of July, 2005. 694 00:59:36,612 --> 00:59:38,670 Why have you come to see me, Alice? 695 00:59:38,671 --> 00:59:41,591 Can you interpret dreams? 696 00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:43,331 Sometimes. 697 00:59:43,919 --> 00:59:46,103 How do you feel when you wake up from these dreams? 698 00:59:51,259 --> 00:59:52,691 They scare me a bit. 699 00:59:52,692 --> 00:59:56,469 Alice came to see me about five months before she died. 700 00:59:56,932 --> 00:59:58,865 I think she'd heard me on the radio a few times... 701 00:59:58,866 --> 01:00:01,333 and rang and made an appointment. 702 01:00:01,334 --> 01:00:03,927 Take a deep breath. Close your eyes. 703 01:00:03,928 --> 01:00:06,438 I want you to imagine you're standing outside your house. 704 01:00:06,439 --> 01:00:09,318 When you can see that, you tell me. 705 01:00:17,017 --> 01:00:19,098 - Okay? - Yeah. 706 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,828 All right. Now, I want you to go inside the front door. 707 01:00:24,859 --> 01:00:28,316 Go into the house. Tell me what you see, where you are. 708 01:00:28,317 --> 01:00:31,191 Ray, why didn't you tell June that you'd actually met Alice before? 709 01:00:31,192 --> 01:00:33,857 Okay, I'm in the entrance.. . 710 01:00:33,858 --> 01:00:36,162 Look, I don't think it was a case of hiding something from them. 711 01:00:36,163 --> 01:00:40,752 It was more that I was honoring Alice's request for confidentiality. 712 01:00:40,974 --> 01:00:44,421 But it was damned if you do, damned if you don't, you know. 713 01:00:44,544 --> 01:00:48,570 The living room's just directly ahead. 714 01:00:48,571 --> 01:00:51,081 Then you go to your right... 715 01:00:51,082 --> 01:00:55,894 and my room's in the back part of the house as you go towards the kitchen. 716 01:00:56,689 --> 01:01:00,033 Do you see anything unusual? Anything different? 717 01:01:03,028 --> 01:01:04,302 No. 718 01:01:04,630 --> 01:01:08,326 No, we didn't feel like we could trust Ray anymore. 719 01:01:08,327 --> 01:01:11,891 For whatever reasons he had of keeping that information to himself, 720 01:01:11,892 --> 01:01:14,848 it still felt like a betrayal. 721 01:01:20,378 --> 01:01:25,178 I wanted to help June and the family and I think they wanted me to help them. 722 01:01:25,179 --> 01:01:28,764 I wouldn't have been able to do it if they'd known. 723 01:01:29,554 --> 01:01:33,763 There was a fair bit of resentment. Mathew wouldn't even speak to me. 724 01:01:33,958 --> 01:01:35,857 But what I think really hurt them more than anything... 725 01:01:35,858 --> 01:01:41,672 was what they saw as my failure to see Alice's eminent passing. 726 01:01:42,266 --> 01:01:45,178 Looking back, like, it's kind of strange 727 01:01:45,303 --> 01:01:50,387 that someone would, you know, be as close to us as he was... 728 01:01:52,642 --> 01:01:56,328 I think, maybe, he needed us as much as we needed him. 729 01:02:08,924 --> 01:02:12,302 Alice came to see me because she was upset. 730 01:02:12,628 --> 01:02:15,540 She was a very troubled person. 731 01:02:17,633 --> 01:02:19,566 "I had a dream last night. 732 01:02:19,567 --> 01:02:24,401 "I was cold and wet. I felt heavy, like I'd been drugged, 733 01:02:24,402 --> 01:02:28,420 "and when I woke up, these sensations didn't go. 734 01:02:29,078 --> 01:02:34,823 "I was feeling sick and confused and I was starting to get scared. 735 01:02:36,218 --> 01:02:38,958 "I needed to see Mum to talk to her. 736 01:02:39,854 --> 01:02:41,514 "I stumbled to her room... 737 01:02:41,515 --> 01:02:44,785 "and as I stood there at the bed, watching them, 738 01:02:44,786 --> 01:02:48,374 "I was overcome by this intense sadness. 739 01:02:49,297 --> 01:02:51,242 "Then the sadness turned to fear. 740 01:02:51,766 --> 01:02:54,108 "I just stood there paralyzed with fear... 741 01:02:54,368 --> 01:02:58,633 "and I realized there was nothing that they could do for me anymore. 742 01:02:58,634 --> 01:03:01,355 "I've never felt so utterly alone. 743 01:03:01,942 --> 01:03:05,025 "Everything felt wrong. My body, 744 01:03:07,014 --> 01:03:08,878 "the way things looked. 745 01:03:08,879 --> 01:03:12,760 "Then I realized that there was something wrong with me. 746 01:03:14,688 --> 01:03:18,567 "I started to cry, standing there at the foot of the bed". 747 01:03:49,921 --> 01:03:53,219 Lake Mungo is in southwestern New South Wales, 748 01:03:53,220 --> 01:03:57,420 and that was the location of the school camp that Alice went on... 749 01:03:57,421 --> 01:04:01,181 from August the 2nd to the 5th in 2005. 750 01:04:04,502 --> 01:04:07,470 When she came home, she said she'd had a good time. 751 01:04:07,471 --> 01:04:09,199 I do particularly remember it... 752 01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,765 because she came home without her mobile phone, 753 01:04:12,766 --> 01:04:15,037 which we'd bought her a month previously, 754 01:04:15,038 --> 01:04:18,422 and her favorite bracelet and watch. 755 01:04:20,884 --> 01:04:26,128 Yes, other than that, you know, she didn't really talk about it too much. 756 01:04:27,691 --> 01:04:29,635 Wait, guys! 757 01:04:35,131 --> 01:04:38,827 Well, Kim didn't show me till about a year after she got back from camp... 758 01:04:38,828 --> 01:04:41,368 the stuff that she'd taken on her mobile phone. 759 01:04:41,369 --> 01:04:43,746 So, why'd you decide to tell June? 760 01:04:44,741 --> 01:04:47,868 Well, if we didn't tell June, 761 01:04:47,869 --> 01:04:49,808 then it would be like we were hiding something. 762 01:04:49,809 --> 01:04:53,360 So, I don't know why... 763 01:04:54,851 --> 01:04:58,400 I don't know why, but why not? 764 01:04:58,454 --> 01:05:00,478 Smile for me! 765 01:05:00,479 --> 01:05:03,933 - Smile. - They're a little bit tipsy, that's all. 766 01:05:04,526 --> 01:05:09,804 Jason told us about the phone footage that the girls had taken at Lake Mungo. 767 01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:20,470 The other girls were looking so happy... 768 01:05:20,471 --> 01:05:24,135 and she looked quite forlorn. 769 01:05:24,136 --> 01:05:29,125 I was worried. I became convinced that something had happened to her. 770 01:05:35,055 --> 01:05:37,352 So, just get a little bit. ust some of it. 771 01:05:37,353 --> 01:05:40,654 Kate's phone footage was taken later that night... 772 01:05:40,655 --> 01:05:43,412 once the girls had spread out over the lunettes. 773 01:05:43,464 --> 01:05:46,762 - anywhere. - I think that we need to get a photo. 774 01:05:46,763 --> 01:05:51,281 Like Africa. Like the desert. 775 01:05:51,704 --> 01:05:55,264 There was an image of Alice, very hard to decipher, 776 01:05:55,265 --> 01:05:58,754 in the bottom of the frame kneeling under a tree. 777 01:06:00,780 --> 01:06:02,713 It was only after viewing the clip several times... 778 01:06:02,714 --> 01:06:05,557 that we realized what she was doing. 779 01:06:06,084 --> 01:06:08,359 She was burying something. 780 01:06:11,456 --> 01:06:15,186 I mean, did you know what had happened that night with Alice? 781 01:06:15,187 --> 01:06:16,534 No. 782 01:06:18,130 --> 01:06:20,405 I knew she'd lost her phone. 783 01:06:21,533 --> 01:06:25,764 I knew she was upset because that was pretty obvious. 784 01:06:25,765 --> 01:06:27,715 But I didn't know why she was upset. 785 01:06:29,508 --> 01:06:33,238 She didn't say that she'd seen anything, she didn't really say anything to me. 786 01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:37,726 I didn't really... perhaps, take it that seriously at the time. 787 01:06:38,249 --> 01:06:40,211 You know, it was like context. 788 01:06:40,212 --> 01:06:42,398 You know, we were just having a good time... 789 01:06:42,399 --> 01:06:44,668 and I just thought she'd gotten a bit upset. 790 01:06:56,166 --> 01:06:58,407 It started simply enough. 791 01:06:59,135 --> 01:07:01,534 Alice left the group... 792 01:07:01,535 --> 01:07:05,416 and started walking off by herself. 793 01:07:07,110 --> 01:07:10,420 But it was... Obviously, something was distressing her. 794 01:07:12,148 --> 01:07:15,390 And we wanted to try and find out what it was. 795 01:07:31,967 --> 01:07:35,902 We understood from the phone video that she'd buried something. 796 01:07:35,903 --> 01:07:38,234 We had an idea where the tree was... 797 01:07:38,235 --> 01:07:42,254 because of what we could see from the video. 798 01:07:44,112 --> 01:07:46,238 We didn't really want to go down during the day time... 799 01:07:46,239 --> 01:07:49,874 because, you know, we didn't want to be digging, 800 01:07:49,875 --> 01:07:52,431 you know, where tourists were. 801 01:07:54,522 --> 01:07:56,967 So, we decided to go at night. 802 01:08:14,075 --> 01:08:18,260 June and I started digging and after a bit, 803 01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,679 June said she'd found something and she pulled out a plastic bag. 804 01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:29,346 And inside the plastic bag there was Ali's favorite necklace, 805 01:08:29,347 --> 01:08:32,300 her ring, her watch, her mobile phone. 806 01:08:33,492 --> 01:08:36,233 Her most precious things... 807 01:08:36,862 --> 01:08:39,637 buried out here on a school camp, 808 01:08:39,832 --> 01:08:42,050 and we didn't know why she did that. 809 01:08:42,902 --> 01:08:45,199 I mean, we knew from the video that she'd buried something, 810 01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,046 but we didn't know what it was. 811 01:08:50,977 --> 01:08:52,751 It's low on battery. 812 01:09:11,730 --> 01:09:13,948 Are you scared of dying? 813 01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:19,813 Yeah, of course I'm scared of dying. Isn't everyone scared of dying? 814 01:09:25,509 --> 01:09:29,957 Would you like to tell me a little bit about what happens in these dreams? 815 01:09:31,815 --> 01:09:35,967 I feel like something bad is gonna happen to me. 816 01:09:36,754 --> 01:09:39,700 I feel like something bad has happened. 817 01:09:40,224 --> 01:09:43,466 It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way. 818 01:09:46,330 --> 01:09:48,480 And it's getting closer. 819 01:09:49,833 --> 01:09:51,799 And I don't feel ready. 820 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,349 I feel like I can't do anything. 821 01:10:08,683 --> 01:10:10,479 At some point, 822 01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:15,171 this figure came towards her from out of the darkness. 823 01:10:15,857 --> 01:10:19,019 I recognized the face as soon as I saw it on the phone video. 824 01:10:19,020 --> 01:10:24,441 It was the same face of the body that I had identified at the dam. 825 01:10:25,567 --> 01:10:28,650 It was Ali's body and Ali's face. 826 01:10:36,278 --> 01:10:41,362 There is absolutely no rational explanation... 827 01:10:41,749 --> 01:10:46,402 for what she saw on that phone. 828 01:11:03,770 --> 01:11:05,954 Stay far away from me. 829 01:11:24,424 --> 01:11:27,870 - Oh, my God, they're coming. - Stay away! 830 01:11:44,108 --> 01:11:49,762 I am convinced that Alice knew she was going to die. 831 01:11:50,114 --> 01:11:51,137 I'm convinced of that. 832 01:11:51,138 --> 01:11:53,831 Bundle up, bundle up, bundle up. 833 01:11:54,619 --> 01:11:58,965 I think the figure at Lake Mungo was an omen for her. 834 01:11:59,390 --> 01:12:04,224 The burial of her possessions was symbolic, 835 01:12:04,225 --> 01:12:06,137 it was a ritual. 836 01:12:09,667 --> 01:12:13,466 No, I was never convinced that Ali believed she was gonna die. 837 01:12:13,467 --> 01:12:17,336 You know, she had morbid thoughts, sure. I mean, who doesn't? 838 01:12:17,337 --> 01:12:21,957 And she had nightmares that upset her, and enough to consult Ray. 839 01:12:26,216 --> 01:12:27,978 I don't know that anybody's really convinced... 840 01:12:27,979 --> 01:12:30,166 that they're gonna die. 841 01:12:33,756 --> 01:12:35,222 And what about the image at Lake Mungo? 842 01:12:35,223 --> 01:12:38,555 How do you think Alice would have explained that? 843 01:12:38,556 --> 01:12:41,209 How could she have explained it? 844 01:12:47,102 --> 01:12:49,582 Look, I think Ali saw a ghost. 845 01:12:50,873 --> 01:12:54,024 But she wasn't to know that it was her own. 846 01:12:54,710 --> 01:12:56,700 I believe she recorded a ghost. 847 01:12:56,701 --> 01:13:00,760 I believe she recorded the future coming to get her. 848 01:13:18,299 --> 01:13:24,180 We had found out about the Tooheys, Ray, and what had happened at Lake Mungo. 849 01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,681 And by the time we returned home, 850 01:13:30,177 --> 01:13:32,987 the house felt different. It was... 851 01:13:34,648 --> 01:13:36,024 Calm. 852 01:13:44,925 --> 01:13:50,738 I think that Alice wanted us to know more about her. 853 01:13:51,164 --> 01:13:55,179 She wanted us to know who she really was, 854 01:13:56,569 --> 01:13:58,286 before she... 855 01:13:59,205 --> 01:14:01,855 You know, before she could leave. 856 01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:14,435 In the weeks and months after Lake Mungo, we started to feel like a family again. 857 01:14:15,754 --> 01:14:17,778 It just crept up on us, really. 858 01:14:17,779 --> 01:14:23,635 We were a little battered and wobbly, but we were a family all the same. 859 01:14:32,237 --> 01:14:33,328 - Hi, Ray. - Nice to see you, Russell. 860 01:14:33,329 --> 01:14:35,338 Yeah, you too. Nice. Come in. 861 01:14:35,339 --> 01:14:37,033 Ray called out of the blue... 862 01:14:37,034 --> 01:14:39,836 and said he was going to be coming through town... 863 01:14:39,837 --> 01:14:44,119 and asked if it was all right if he could come round and visit. 864 01:14:44,682 --> 01:14:46,239 Six months had gone by, 865 01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:51,185 and I just felt that under the circumstances, 866 01:14:51,186 --> 01:14:53,996 I didn't think it could do any harm. 867 01:14:57,627 --> 01:15:01,176 I think we all felt that after Mungo, 868 01:15:01,597 --> 01:15:05,613 in our own ways, there'd been closure, I suppose, to a degree. 869 01:15:05,902 --> 01:15:08,267 And, you know, for each of us it's different. 870 01:15:08,268 --> 01:15:11,751 And for each of us, we've made our own peace. 871 01:15:18,281 --> 01:15:23,411 It seems strange to me that Ali should withdraw so abruptly. 872 01:15:23,412 --> 01:15:28,069 And we didn't help her, we didn't change anything. 873 01:15:28,557 --> 01:15:34,268 I think we just collectively made a decision to move forward. 874 01:15:35,063 --> 01:15:37,997 And, you know, moving... 875 01:15:37,998 --> 01:15:42,252 was really a big part of all that... Deciding to move. 876 01:16:00,621 --> 01:16:03,601 It will be difficult to leave the house. 877 01:16:04,725 --> 01:16:07,808 Sometimes, you know, I just forget that... 878 01:16:10,264 --> 01:16:13,415 She's not coming back. 879 01:16:14,802 --> 01:16:16,313 I forget. 880 01:16:46,832 --> 01:16:50,017 Okay. Close your eyes... 881 01:16:51,637 --> 01:16:55,448 and imagine that you're back standing outside the house. 882 01:16:56,742 --> 01:16:58,516 Can you see it? 883 01:17:02,681 --> 01:17:04,693 Go inside the house. 884 01:17:06,951 --> 01:17:09,601 I'm going through the front door. 885 01:17:11,923 --> 01:17:13,333 And... 886 01:17:16,294 --> 01:17:19,377 Walking down the hall towards Alice's room. 887 01:17:25,469 --> 01:17:27,311 Someone's there. 888 01:17:28,071 --> 01:17:30,197 I think someone's coming down the hall. 889 01:17:30,198 --> 01:17:31,922 Door's open. 890 01:17:34,277 --> 01:17:36,392 Do you know who it is? 891 01:17:48,124 --> 01:17:50,274 Do you want to go inside? 892 01:17:51,361 --> 01:17:52,702 Yeah. 893 01:17:54,697 --> 01:17:55,971 Okay. 894 01:18:06,609 --> 01:18:09,850 - What do you see? - It's my mum. 895 01:18:12,113 --> 01:18:14,024 What's she saying? 896 01:18:14,749 --> 01:18:17,729 She's not... She's not saying anything. 897 01:18:24,092 --> 01:18:26,776 I don't think she knows I'm there. 898 01:18:30,465 --> 01:18:32,342 Alice isn't here. 899 01:18:33,701 --> 01:18:35,475 She's not here. 900 01:18:37,038 --> 01:18:38,721 What's happening, Alice? 901 01:18:40,141 --> 01:18:42,266 Are you talking to her? Is she talking to you? 902 01:18:42,267 --> 01:18:44,184 She's going now. 903 01:18:46,346 --> 01:18:48,496 She's leaving the room. 904 01:18:51,184 --> 01:18:52,799 She's gone. 905 01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:55,094 Open your eyes. 906 01:19:49,039 --> 01:19:50,881 She's going now. 907 01:19:53,277 --> 01:19:55,427 She's leaving the room. 908 01:20:04,321 --> 01:20:05,970 All the way. 909 01:20:25,074 --> 01:20:26,689 She's gone.