1 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,800 I'm Andrew, I'm 39 years old and I'm from Newcastle. 2 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,160 Who's your favourite? 3 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,800 I think Sara is. 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,400 Got to be, she's from the north-east. She's the canniest. 5 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,920 Time to go, man. 6 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,600 I don't think the Dragons are going to know what hit them 7 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,000 when we hit the Den. 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,120 We're going to bring some drama. We're going to bring some theatre. 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,480 We're going to bring the best of pro wrestling. 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,000 Hopefully we're going to put the Dragons on the back foot 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,600 to the point where they get in their back pocket 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,080 and give me a bit of money. 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,920 Yo, yo, yo, Dragons, I want you all to make some noise. 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,760 - Whoa! - Yay! 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:04,240 My name is Man Like DeReiss, and I'm a wrestler at North Wrestling. 16 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,800 - And I am the champion. - Yes! 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,080 And I'm here to offer...a... 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,960 GRUNTING 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,720 Yeah. 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,400 Yeah. No, no, no. 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,520 Give me that. 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,720 I don't care about these piles of money and this investment. 23 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,200 I'm Rory Coyle, and I'm here for the biggest prize 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,640 in pro wrestling, that North Wrestling Championship. 25 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,080 So what do you say? On Dragons' Den, let's go. 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,680 - All right, then, let's go. - Yeah, let's go, you show him. 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,200 You show him, mate. 28 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:56,960 Oh! 29 00:01:58,800 --> 00:01:59,880 Yeah. 30 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,680 Oh! 31 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,040 Yeah. 32 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,400 Yeah! 33 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,720 That's it, Dragons! He's out! 34 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,520 Whoa, whoa. What? 35 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,960 No! One, two, three, out! 36 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,040 - Yes! - Well done, guys. 37 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,920 Sorry about that. 38 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,960 I'm Andrew. I'm the owner of North Wrestling, 39 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,400 a modern pro wrestling company based in Newcastle upon Tyne. 40 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,360 I'm here to ask you for £60,000 of investment 41 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,920 for 25% of my business. 42 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:54,200 So I fell in love with wrestling when I was a kid. 43 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:55,800 I used to sit on the couch with my dad, 44 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,800 and we used to watch it on a Saturday morning. 45 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,280 As a teen, I used to go to live wrestling shows, 46 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,480 and as an adult, I'd take my kids to wrestling shows too. 47 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,600 So eight years ago, I started North Wrestling. 48 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,960 CROWD CHANTING 49 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,440 I used everything that I had learned on the way as a fan 50 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,160 to start that company. 51 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,960 The vision for North Wrestling is the ultimate variety show. 52 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,560 I want to put a show on that has 53 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,360 the biggest superheroes against the hardest supervillains, 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,160 David versus Goliath. 55 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,880 I want to create a community around what we've done. 56 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,480 I want the audience to feel like me and my dad felt 57 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,920 when we watched wrestling on a Saturday morning. 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,080 I knew that we had done this with our biggest show last year, 59 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,800 with 700 people in an arena in Newcastle. 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,600 But we have to take it to a wider audience. 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,760 I'm asking for your investment in the magic that is pro wrestling. 62 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,000 Thank you. 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:58,160 An impactful pitch from wrestling impresario, Andrew Bowers. 64 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,920 Guys, thank you very much. That was really entertaining. 65 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,600 - Thank you, guys. - Well done. 66 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Andrew is seeking £60,000 in return for a 25% share in his company. 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,520 They're friends again! 68 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,000 An all-action demo might have floored the Dragons, 69 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,360 but will the business pack a similar punch? 70 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,000 Andrew. 71 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,440 - That was quite a performance. - Yeah. 72 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,360 So if I'm to invest in your business, 73 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,240 describe to me what is your business? 74 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,360 What am I investing in? 75 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,560 We're a ticket-selling business first and foremost. 76 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,440 - My job is to sell tickets. - OK. - But in the modern world, 77 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,160 we also have, you know, there's other forms of revenue. 78 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,120 So merchandising is a classic one. 79 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,320 But also, it's the kind of residual online video stuff 80 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,480 that we do. 81 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,760 So we try and tell a lot of stories on social media. 82 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,320 And with that comes many other revenue streams. 83 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,400 OK, so give me an example. 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Your next big fight night. 85 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,680 How many people do you expect on that night? 86 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,600 So we estimate 700 people getting through the door. 87 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,080 And how much a head? 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,360 So that would be, we tier the prices. 89 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,280 So the entry point is £28, 90 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,160 so we're averaging at about £35 on average. 91 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,960 - Right. - We are looking then to sell 700 of them. 92 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,680 - So if you can do the quick maths on that I guess... - 21 grand? 93 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,600 Yeah. So to run a show probably costs us 94 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,600 somewhere around 15,000 and £16,000 at the moment. 95 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,600 - So it's quite a low margin? - Yeah, low margins to a certain extent. 96 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,600 Low margin. So give us the last few years 97 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,800 of revenue and gross profit and net. 98 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,760 So last year we made £43,000 worth of revenue. 99 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,760 Gross profit was £17,000 with a net of £2,000. 100 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,240 - Is that after paying yourself? - Uh, no, because... 101 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,720 - You can't be paying yourself at 17 grand. - No. 102 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,480 Not paying myself at the minute. 103 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,040 - So how are you living? - So I'm a graphic designer. 104 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,400 - I'm a creative... - You got a side hustle? 105 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,200 - Or this is a side hustle? I can't work it out. - Yeah, yeah. 106 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,480 This is probably the side hustle that is becoming the main thing. 107 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,840 But I work in wrestling as well. I work as a consultant 108 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:06,680 for another wrestling company as well. 109 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,840 - So I get paid for that. - Yeah. - I'm a creative hustler. 110 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,600 - Andrew. Hi. - Hi, Peter. 111 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,080 - Great impact. - Thank you. 112 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,440 Really good. 113 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,400 In essence, it is what it says on the tin, really. 114 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:25,880 And you said it. 115 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,000 - It's a ticket-selling event business. - Yeah. 116 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,040 If I compare this to other similar events, 117 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,120 doesn't your business need a sort of a hero name 118 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,600 that will bring an audience? 119 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,600 - So, for example, we all know The Rock. - Yeah. 120 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,360 I couldn't even tell you 121 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,400 what the event is or what he's part of. 122 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,960 But I can tell you that if The Rock is going 123 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,040 and he's turning up, he's going to sell tickets. 124 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,440 Is that not what you really need to do to bring the following? 125 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Absolutely. I think breaking into the mainstream 126 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,400 is bringing something that non-wrestling fans 127 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,880 can recognise and go, "Right, who's this?" 128 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,360 Or something that surpasses what pro wrestling is. 129 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,320 - Yeah. - I think... - What's your plan there? 130 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,960 Who's the most famous wrestler in the UK? 131 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,720 So Joe Hendry is a big name in the UK. 132 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,680 He's contracted over to a big company in America, 133 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,040 but he performs over here as well. 134 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,680 See the issue with wrestling, or pro wrestling in Britain is 135 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,160 we have, for pound for pound, 136 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,880 we create some amazing talent. 137 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,920 But they have to leave the British Isles 138 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,160 to then go on and be a star. 139 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,440 And what is the biggest, what's the largest event 140 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,000 in the UK for wrestling? 141 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,360 So the largest event isn't run by a British company, I would say. 142 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,440 I think British companies are all on the same level at the moment, 143 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,360 of which we're probably up there with 700 to 800 people. 144 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,680 The largest events, though, are WWE or AEW. 145 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,840 They bring their show to town, 146 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,600 they sell out all the way through wherever they go. 147 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,720 But then when you look at that scale, though, 148 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,720 when you say that you're up there with those players 149 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,760 - and you're generating 17K gross profit. - Yeah. 150 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,000 I think that sort of says the issue, doesn't it? 151 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,440 The scale of the opportunity potentially isn't there. 152 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,840 Possibly, but I think when you break into a mainstream market, 153 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,640 and you get more people in, the actual costs of running the show, 154 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,760 they're relatively negligible 155 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,840 to what revenue you can bring in from a wider audience. 156 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,880 - Andrew, hi. - Hi. - I might be wrong, 157 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,800 but I think I might be the only 158 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,120 Dragon who's actually ever put on wrestling matches. 159 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:30,680 Have you, actually? 160 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,800 That was a pretty, pretty safe guess. 161 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,480 - Yeah. So in my holiday parks... - Of course. 162 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,560 ..we used to put on wrestling matches every week, 163 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:44,320 for many, many years, 164 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,720 but they slowly dwindled, less and less attendance. 165 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,040 And actually, at one point, we just thought, 166 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,720 this is old-fashioned. 167 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,160 Brace yourself for these words. "This is old-fashioned." 168 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,240 - Yeah. - This is not a thing of the future, 169 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,360 and it's not attracting people. 170 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,000 So we're talking 20 years ago. 171 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,600 So what's actually happened to the market? 172 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,360 Are there more people going to see wrestling, 173 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:09,640 less people going to see wrestling? 174 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,760 There's loads more people going to see wrestling now 175 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,040 than there was back then. 176 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,760 And the audience has changed as to who it was. 177 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,880 I think if you look at buying habits as well, 178 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,440 people are buying experiences 179 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,400 rather than just going out on an ad hoc night out. 180 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,360 But the evidence says differently because the evidence says, 181 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,880 and these are your words "Our wrestlers are leaving these isles 182 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,880 - "to go and wrestle in the US." - Yeah. 183 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,640 That tells me there's an issue with the audience size in the UK. 184 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,320 That's supplementing what they do in Britain. 185 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,080 The reason that they go to the US is because wrestlers want 186 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,480 to get signed by the WWE or AEW, over there, 187 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,040 because they're the only alternative to actually giving you 188 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,040 a career as a wrestler. We don't have that here. 189 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,640 What you're not asking yourself, Andrew, is why. 190 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:01,120 Demand. 191 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,960 - Steven has got the answer. - Yeah, of course, it's economics. 192 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,560 Why? 193 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:09,000 It is economic. 194 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,720 If there were enough people here who were that interested 195 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,600 in what, and there's loads of it. 196 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,960 You know, you get thousands of people. 197 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,280 We're talking a population of 65 million. 198 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,480 There are not enough of those people to actually support the industry 199 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,680 to the level at which that it can be supported in foreign territories. 200 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:30,840 I mean, that's just how economics works. 201 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,480 - No? - Well, yeah, maybe, I think. But, you know, 202 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,920 you see the audiences that are watching wrestling 203 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,360 over here and they are huge. 204 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,800 It's about tapping that and giving them an alternative 205 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,160 to American wrestling. 206 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,040 Andrew, when I was young, I spent all my childhood watching wrestling. 207 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,800 And then at some point when it came off TV, 208 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,120 that demand for wrestling and that sort of obsession with it, 209 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,880 me and my brothers switched over to other things, like boxing. 210 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,640 And the UFC rose out of nowhere. 211 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,000 British boxing is at an all-time high. 212 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,200 Now influencer boxing is selling out stadiums 213 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,000 up and down the country, 214 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,280 and wrestling seems to have vanished. 215 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,560 And now it's only left at WrestleMania, 216 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:13,960 which is, like, once a year, when my timeline again talks 217 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,560 about wrestling for one day and then after WrestleMania, it's gone again. 218 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,160 So when I look at this business, I go, actually, 219 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,960 to win here, we have to cultivate broad cultural demand 220 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,760 in wrestling again. 221 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,280 And honestly, to win in that race, 222 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,680 you'd need tens of millions of dollars potentially. 223 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:39,320 So with the 60K here, I think we could accelerate this business, 224 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,440 but not to a point where I'd make a return as an investor. 225 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,280 So I'm going to say that I'm out. 226 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,440 Thank you. 227 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,600 Andrew. 228 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,200 Hey, Peter. 229 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,520 I think this is a great business for you, and I hope it continues. 230 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,040 But as an investment, 231 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,080 there's a ceiling to the opportunity here, 232 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,840 and I can't see how I could extract any money out of it. 233 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,720 - So for that reason, I'm out. But thanks for coming in. - Thank you. 234 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,880 - Andrew. - Yes. 235 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,600 At the end of the day, I can't see 236 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,160 how giving you 60,000 of my hard-earned money, 237 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,760 I can't see a return on it. And for that reason, Andrew, 238 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,920 I wish you all the best, but I'm out. 239 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,080 Thank you. 240 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:29,600 Andrew. 241 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,760 From what I saw on that screen there, 242 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,120 you're putting on a very good product. 243 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,960 - Yeah. - That isn't the problem. 244 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,000 In fact, the fact you're putting on a good product has kind of worried 245 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,520 me a bit because you are putting on a good product 246 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,280 and it hasn't whooshed off. 247 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,640 It's a business for you. 248 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,200 It's a business of passion and love and community, 249 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,120 but it's not an investment for me. 250 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,640 I never thought I'd say these words. 251 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,160 I think I've left my wrestling days behind! 252 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,560 - But you know where I'm going. - Yeah. 253 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,640 I'm afraid I won't be investing. I'm out. 254 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:14,920 Thank you very much. 255 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,120 So that just leaves the local lass. 256 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,560 - Howay! - Howay! 257 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,200 What does that mean? 258 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,760 I don't know if anyone's ever actually defined what that means. 259 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,800 Or there's a general understanding. 260 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,520 Just a good word, howay. 261 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,280 Howay. Howay! 262 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:34,880 Howay. 263 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,200 I got excited when you came in. I loved the performance. 264 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,760 I loved the presentation of it. 265 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,360 When you were talking, I'm thinking, 266 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,680 oh, this is brilliant. 267 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,520 But when you described the business opportunity, 268 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,840 it's not exciting really. 269 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,640 So I'm going to politely decline the offer and say, all the best, 270 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,160 but I'm out too. 271 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,080 - Thank you very much. - Good luck, Andrew, follow your passion. 272 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,680 Thank you for the opportunity. 273 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,480 A high-octane arrival, but much lower-key departure. 274 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,520 Unlike his wrestlers, Andrew couldn't twist any arms 275 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,720 and must leave the Den without a deal. 276 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,080 I feel disappointed we didn't get investment, 277 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,880 but the Dragons were real fun to talk to 278 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,240 and I've taken a lot away from it. 279 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,120 That was a bit of excitement for the Den. 280 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,560 I enjoyed that. 281 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,320 Do you know what's quite nice though? 282 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:32,960 It's quite nice to see a fight 283 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,800 from the contestant perspective in the Den rather than the Dragons. 284 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,640 - I don't know. I learned some moves there. - Oh! - It's coming. 285 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,200 It's the elbow. Ah! 286 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,240 Here we go. My name is Fiona Ritchie 287 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,680 and I'm from near Stirling, in Scotland. 288 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,400 I just have to remember not to embarrass my kids! 289 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,160 I've always had a passion 290 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,200 for really clean ingredients in really good skincare, 291 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,240 and I wanted to apply my knowledge 292 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,800 and skills to skin that had been tattooed. 293 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,280 Tattoos. 294 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,200 I am tattooed from just below there. 295 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,760 My favourite tattoo is the one on your lower back. 296 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,600 - The Kundalini snake. - Yeah, that one. 297 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,680 I don't have any tattoos. 298 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,400 However, if today goes well, I'll get a dragon! 299 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,880 Hello and thank you very much for having me here. 300 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:56,000 My name is Fiona Ritchie and I'm here to ask for £60,000 301 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,680 for 15% in my award-winning tattoo aftercare product. 302 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,680 {\an8}The ink balm is a stick of natural vegan oils 303 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,280 {\an8}and butters that could help to continue 304 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:09,920 {\an8}the life of your tattoo 305 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,400 {\an8}and keep the colours bright and the lines defined. 306 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,520 But the ink balm is actually more than just a beautiful, 307 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,600 nourishing skincare product. 308 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,400 It's a celebration of tattoo artistry. 309 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,720 We work with tattoo artists and we encourage them 310 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,160 to create their own bespoke labelling. 311 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,560 They can sell it through their own studios, 312 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,680 which increases their own revenue, 313 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,640 and it also helps them to promote good-quality, 314 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,960 long-term care of the artwork. 315 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,240 In the 18 months that we've been selling the products, 316 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,520 we've sold over 3,500 sticks and raised over £20,000 of turnover. 317 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,560 We want to take the brand into two different markets. 318 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,760 The first market is the tattoo studios. 319 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:55,000 At the moment, we're working with ten studios in the UK and overseas. 320 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,240 The other market I would like to take the brand into 321 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,160 is the gifting market. 322 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,160 Everyone knows someone with a tattoo and I want this to be the go-to 323 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,160 and the on-the-go product for your tattooed skin. 324 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,920 At the moment, we're working with the Superdrug website, 325 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,200 the National Galleries of Scotland, 326 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,920 and we're in a conversation with WH Smith Retail about trying 327 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,560 the range out in one of their airport outlets. 328 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,120 If you'd like to go under your chairs, 329 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:24,440 there is a discovery box for you. 330 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,080 A range of natural skincare products specifically targeted 331 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,120 at those with tattoos... 332 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,360 - Thank you very much. - No worries. - Thank you. 333 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,800 ..is the offering from Fiona Ritchie. 334 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,680 You have an un-fragranced tattoo balm. 335 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,240 You also have a fragrance balm, and I've asked five tattoo artists 336 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,440 to each create you an individual dragon tattoo. 337 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,400 So the dragon tattoo on the ink balm stick is specifically for you. 338 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,160 Fiona is seeking £60,000... 339 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,920 Beautiful. 340 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,720 ..in return for 15% of her business. 341 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,200 It smells lovely as well. I can smell it. 342 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,680 - Can I smell it? - Yes. 343 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,040 - That's me. - That's the fragrance, Steven, that smells. 344 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,000 Steven Bartlett might be pleasant on the nose, 345 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,920 but Fiona has her eyes firmly fixed on a deal. 346 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,360 So will her products for tattoos enthuse or bemuse? 347 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,920 Right, Fiona. I'm going to ask questions now. 348 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,520 - This is not... - Yes, please do. 349 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,800 - My sisters have got tattoos, actually. - Yes. 350 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,480 And my younger sister, 351 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,640 - she's just had a tattoo done... - Yes. 352 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,000 ..a tiny little tattoo on her wrist. 353 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,560 So I've been watching, you know, 354 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,720 she goes slightly red when it first started. 355 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,200 So she's going through the whole care piece. 356 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,400 But I don't pretend that I really know this market. 357 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,000 - That's OK. - So, how big is the market? 358 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,920 Well, they say that 40% of millennials and Gen Z have a tattoo, 359 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,320 and very few people have only one tattoo. 360 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,480 Once you start, it's very difficult to stop. 361 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,880 So the market is enormous. 362 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:11,360 In the UK, there are 3,000 studios and 10,000 tattoo artists. 363 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:15,960 And it's the most regularly opened shop in the UK at the moment, 364 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,000 just on the high street, so it's huge. 365 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,240 - And this lovely thing? - Yes. 366 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,760 How much would this cost? 367 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,960 So the discovery box retails at 38.50. 368 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,360 And can I buy them individually? I guess I can? 369 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:32,920 Yeah. So the ink balms themselves sell individually at £12.50 each. 370 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,040 They go to trade at £5.20, ex VAT, 371 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,800 and they can multiply that to 2.4. 372 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,080 And I make them for £3.30. 373 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,200 And how does that work? 374 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,160 - So I can see how that works in tattoo studios. - Yes. 375 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,680 - But you're talking to some big retailers. - Yes. 376 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,760 So what's the brand when you go into big retailers? 377 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,000 Because you're not going to be able to change the label for every... 378 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,240 No, no. So what we've done is the brand 379 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,320 will always be consistently the ink balm. 380 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,400 And if you have a look at the labels, 381 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,720 the space for the different tattoo artists' artwork 382 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,480 is the same space for every label, 383 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,360 so we just swap in the different artwork. 384 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:10,080 And we number them as well? 385 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,960 How does that work in retail? 386 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,040 In big retail, we have five designs. 387 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,760 They are here somewhere. 388 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,280 And my last question for the moment, because I expect there'll be more. 389 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,880 - Yes. - You sound like you're very familiar 390 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,840 with retail because you're talking about, 391 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,840 you know, mark-ups and you kind of use a language 392 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,800 - that tells me you have been there and done that. - Yes. 393 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,320 - So what's your background? - Well, I started my career 394 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,120 as an occupational therapist in the health service, 395 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,680 and then I had my two children, and I found myself 396 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,160 solo parenting them when they were two and three. 397 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,760 And I wanted to work, but I wanted to be there for them permanently. 398 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,600 So I started making handmade natural skincare back then. 399 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,640 So basically, I've run a business from then until now, 400 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,320 within the Scottish giftware market. 401 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,160 - And that's separate from this? - It's entirely separate. 402 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,720 - It's a very different... - And what's the turnover of that? 403 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,200 - The turnover of that is about £180,000. - Right, OK. 404 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,480 - Fiona? - Yes. - I think the most pressing question 405 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,640 for me as an investor here is 406 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,840 if you've ran that other business for a while... 407 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,920 - Yes. - ..and it's doing 180K income. - Yes. 408 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,200 How can you make a case to me 409 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,040 that this business will be different? 410 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,520 The business I've run so far has been, 411 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,800 and I don't like the term, kind of lifestyle. 412 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,720 It's enabled me to raise my children. 413 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,880 And the thing about this is, this is for me now. 414 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,560 You know, they have flown the nest 415 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,560 and I'm filling my nest with tattooed people, 416 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,800 which is wonderful, I have to say. 417 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,880 But this is a very defined market, I think, 418 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,920 and it's a burgeoning market. 419 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,000 So I think the potential for this business is enormous. 420 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,680 - I have a three-year plan... - OK. 421 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,280 ..for the end of three years to have a turnover of 488,000. 422 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,360 So let's break down those numbers then. 423 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,560 So you said in the last 18 months you've done 20K. 424 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,040 - Yes. - In the last 12 months, 425 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,720 how much of that revenue has showed up? 426 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,800 In the last 12 months, probably half of that. 427 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,280 You've done 10K in the last year. So this year, 428 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,520 the next 12 months, what's the revenue? 429 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,800 I would like to have a revenue of 125,000. 430 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,520 OK, and where's that going to come from? 431 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,240 The business I've run so far 432 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,560 has always been done organically and kind of bootstrap. 433 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,600 I've never asked for funding or financing before, 434 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,680 and I would like to, this is why I'm here, 435 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,920 is to actually run a business with funds behind me, 436 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,800 to be able to bring in experts in, you know, 437 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,720 in marketing, in sales, to help me set up the manufacturing 438 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,560 to be able to absolutely accelerate forward. 439 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,440 - Fiona. - Yes, Touker. - You're very passionate about this. 440 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,040 - Yes. - I think the difficulty for me, 441 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,280 you've come in here, with a £20,000 turnover. 442 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,640 - Yes. - And you're very niche 443 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,440 in respect of focusing on the artists, 444 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,440 which I think is great, don't get me wrong. 445 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,680 - That's my unique selling point, I think, is the artwork. - Right. 446 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,680 But then I say to myself, 447 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,600 how big can this business really get? 448 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,720 - Yeah. - I also know that there is more 449 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,240 and more people who are willing to have tattoos. 450 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,920 And the question really is, 451 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,320 is your product must-have tattoo care? 452 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,320 - Mm. - And the moment you get to that, it's a product you could pick up 453 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,200 in Boots or whatever, 454 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,040 or you're aiming in a different end with the artists. 455 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,160 And I'm trying to work out - is the potential, A, with the artists? 456 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,960 Or is the potential to say, look, 457 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,240 whoever's got a tattoo, needs this to look after their tattoo? 458 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,920 - Which becomes a commodity. - Yes. - And I just think that the artistic 459 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,920 front might be holding back the business. 460 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,360 Yeah. What I wanted to create is a commodity that has shelf appeal, 461 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,960 that makes you go, "Ooh, I would really like that." 462 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,720 And by using tattoo art, you're drawn to it. 463 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,280 No, but I don't think it's that. 464 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,600 I personally think, this is my own view... 465 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,960 - Yes. - ..the tattoo art is great artistic. 466 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,800 - Yes. - But you've got to put that aside and say 467 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,200 whoever's got a tattoo, needs this. 468 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,840 Once you start selling the art, 469 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,680 they've got two things to worry about. 470 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,960 The consumer needs to know one thing. 471 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,280 "I've got a tattoo. I want to protect my tattoo. 472 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,840 - "That's for me." - Yes. Which, I have to say, is what 473 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,480 - the product is for. - But you're not selling it that way. 474 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,480 Your pitch is very much based around the artists, the studio and I... 475 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,680 That's one channel. I'm not saying you haven't got 476 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,000 the channel, but your main channel is mainstream. 477 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,440 Yes. 478 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,680 How many people in the country have got tattoos? 479 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,320 - A third, a third of people. - A third of the population? - Yeah. 480 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,640 - Well, that's your pitch. - Absolutely. 481 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,520 - It's huge. - But all this... 482 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,040 But then what people tend not to do is, 483 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,440 is look after them once they've got them and they're healed. 484 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,040 - Fiona, Fiona? - Sorry. 485 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,920 - You are 100% right. - Yes. - Just hit it. - Yes. 486 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,960 - You need them all to have one of these? - Yeah. 487 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,560 Because it's a must-have for tattoos. 488 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,320 - Yeah, absolutely. - And that's what I wanted to hear. 489 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,880 - Yeah. - Rather than, I want to work with the artists. 490 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,640 I want to put... That to me, is airy-fairy. 491 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,000 In real business, 492 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,760 you've got to have a product that you can say, 493 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,480 I am the number one tattoo ointment in the market. 494 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,160 And that's what you've got to be. But at the moment, 495 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,320 you've not convinced me that my investment, 496 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,520 - I'm going to get a return on it. - Right, OK, OK. 497 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,880 And for that reason, I'm out. 498 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,600 - Fiona, just a question. - Yes. 499 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,720 Something you said to Touker there, you said 500 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,600 the unique selling point of this business is the artwork? 501 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,360 - Yes. - Really, like, most of the growth of any business 502 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,080 at its heart comes from its unique selling point. 503 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,920 - Yes. - And if you're telling me that is the artwork, 504 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,440 - then I go, you have no unique selling point? - No, OK. 505 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,120 Because if I'm a rival brand, 506 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,080 if I wanted to completely destroy your moat around your castle, 507 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,200 all I've got to do is put some of that artwork on there. 508 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,840 - Yes. - So I'm going to say that I'm out, 509 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,040 - but I wish you the very best. - Well, thank you. 510 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,920 Thank you so much for considering it. 511 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,160 So, listen, I disagree with Touker. 512 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,760 - I think it is the whole artist piece... - Yes. 513 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,760 ..that makes you different 514 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,640 because you have got so many alternatives. 515 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,200 So I think that you're going to do very well 516 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,560 with tattoo artists and the actual tattoo studios. 517 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,840 - Yes. - Because they are going to love 518 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,560 that they're going to be able 519 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,880 - to represent their creativity on that product. - Yes. 520 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,440 However, 521 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,480 I don't see the massive piece that you see. 522 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,200 - Yes. - So I'm afraid I'm going to say those words - 523 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,560 - I'm out. - That's fine. Thank you very much. 524 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,880 Fiona, I can see why it's attractive 525 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,400 for you to have an investor in the business. 526 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,120 - Yes. - I've got to sit, look, is it attractive for me 527 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:50,880 as an investor to have you within my portfolio? 528 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,480 What does that bring? How does that deliver for me? 529 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,880 And I think that is the bit that I'm struggling with is, 530 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,960 it's not an attractive investment proposition 531 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,760 from the standpoint of, what I give versus what I can make. 532 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,280 Absolutely. 533 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,680 - So I'm really sorry to say it, Fiona, but I'm out. - Yeah. 534 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920 - Fiona. - Yes. 535 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,920 Congratulations on being able to, let's say, 536 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,480 pivot and create something and bring up two kids on your own. 537 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,520 That's, you've already done, 538 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,760 you've already got the tick in the box there. 539 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,880 And you're clearly going to need help here 540 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,280 and support and guidance, exactly as you said. 541 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,040 And sometimes that's exactly why investors come in. 542 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,160 - They do provide that for you. - Yes. 543 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,360 I don't think this is particularly niche either. 544 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:41,200 So it's an interesting one because like you say, the market is huge. 545 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,440 - Yes. - But it's specifically going 546 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,840 to the product that you've created. 547 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,120 You could quite easily go to all the tattoo studios 548 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,320 and get the product listed in there, 549 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,880 and I'm sure you're tenacious enough to go and do that yourself. 550 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,000 - Yeah. - And then once you've got 3,000 tattoo studios 551 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,320 and you're going to get the traction then 552 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,000 with the other players, 553 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,440 you're really starting to capitulate the market. 554 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,240 So I think you've got a real chance there of doing this. 555 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,200 But to try and look at this from my perspective and get excited about it 556 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,680 is a little bit tough, being honest with you. 557 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:17,960 Yeah, fair enough. 558 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,000 So I'm going to say that I'm not going to invest 559 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,080 and I'm out and I say good luck to you. 560 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,960 - Thank you very much. - Pleasure meeting you. - Thank you. 561 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,240 No deal for Fiona. 562 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,720 I want you to get a dragon tattoo now 563 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,040 because I thought if I got a Dragon, I'll get your tattoo. 564 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,160 But while she may have drawn a blank in the Den... 565 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,840 - Thank you very much. - Lovely to meet you, Fiona. 566 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,320 ..the tattoo-care entrepreneur doesn't seem too needled. 567 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,240 I do understand why they didn't invest, 568 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,720 because it does look like a very small turnover so far, 569 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,720 but it's upwards and onwards for the brand, 570 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,480 and I'm still going to go on that journey. 571 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,600 Hi, my name is Reedah El-Saie and I live in London. 572 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,920 I never expected to be developing an ed-tech gaming studio, 573 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,640 but here I am looking for funding now. 574 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,920 - Oh, this looks good! - Gaming. 575 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,040 Brainspark, so a game to test your brain. 576 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,560 - Who's going to do it? Touker? - I need to test my brain. 577 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,080 Recharge. 578 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,560 I could easily have been a girl left in the village in Pakistan, 579 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,000 which is where my parents came from. 580 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,560 If they hadn't migrated to the UK 581 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,880 and really focused on us getting an education, 582 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,760 I don't think I'd be here today and I just feel 583 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,320 that if I have certain opportunities, 584 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,080 I have to really leverage those for the greater good. 585 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,840 That's something that's really important to me. 586 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,920 Hello, Dragons! My name is Reedah El-Saie. 587 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,360 I'm the founder of Brainspark Games. 588 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,000 I'm looking for £10,000 for 1% equity. 589 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,640 I started the company because I literally couldn't get 590 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:23,960 my kids to stop gaming. 591 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240 I don't know if any of you have had this problem, 592 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,240 but when I was helping my son 593 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,520 with his eleven-plus exams a few years ago, 594 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,520 it occurred to me that if millions of children globally 595 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,240 are playing mobile games, 596 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,520 then why are we not disseminating educational content through games? 597 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,720 We've condensed 12 weeks of term-time learning 598 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,320 into just a few hours of fun, fast game play. 599 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,080 Our games are designed for girls and boys to be played 600 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,400 as part of a mainstream lesson plan and after-school activity, 601 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,120 or on the go if you're travelling or something like that. 602 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,120 We've play tested our games with over 1,800 children, 603 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,280 parents and teachers and developed a really strong product market fit, 604 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,480 and I hope that you will consider joining us on that journey. 605 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,640 So if I could ask one of the Dragons to have a demo, maybe with our game? 606 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,960 - Touker, go on. - Go on, come on. 607 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,800 Come on, it'll be fun. 608 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,600 They're setting me up. I know what they're doing! 609 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,400 A digital platform which aims to channel children's passion 610 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,400 for gaming into a love of learning, 611 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,840 is the offering from Reedah El-Saie. 612 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,960 If you just scroll through the carousel, 613 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,200 that gives you a sense of all the different subjects. 614 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,520 - Physics, maths... - Maths. - ..languages. 615 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,040 So these are a lot of the games that are currently in development. 616 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,640 So what we've done with the climate game is, we've researched 617 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,040 14 core subjects that explain 618 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,520 to children the causes of climate change. 619 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,520 So if we're going to industrialisation now, yep. 620 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:57,800 Reedah is seeking £10,000 in exchange for 1% of her business. 621 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,920 - So we always have exploration mode. - I've never done this. 622 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,840 And you can click to the portal. 623 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,360 And now you've got to find your way to the portal 624 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,520 to build a sustainable city. 625 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,960 So if you use the navigation button here, you can explore. 626 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,440 - So probably don't want to walk around... - Not on the road. 627 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,360 - Maybe on the pavement. - You don't want to get run over. 628 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,000 He's lost already! 629 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,360 Touker Suleyman may be struggling to get his bearings... 630 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,760 - I give up. - You did really well. 631 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,840 ..but will this combination of technology and teaching 632 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,080 have the Dragons heading straight for their pockets? 633 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,800 Steven Bartlett is first to find out more. 634 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,560 Reedah, really interesting. What's your professional background? 635 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,600 So I'm a qualified barrister. 636 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,240 I've had a number of businesses in the creative industries, 637 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,040 and prior to starting this three or four years ago, 638 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,360 I worked as a portfolio manager in culture, 639 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,120 heritage-tech and education-led regeneration 640 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,640 with government in the UK and the Middle East. 641 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,040 Are you focused on this business now or are you doing something else? 642 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,720 Yeah, I resigned from a very 643 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,120 well-paid job that I absolutely loved, 644 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,960 in August '21, because I realised 645 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,920 that I either had to scale 646 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,200 and grow this and commit full-time, or stop. 647 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,880 So I've been full-time since. 648 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,480 So, funding wise, how have you funded this business? 649 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,520 So I've put in over £470,000 of my own money 650 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,160 from my salary and my savings. 651 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,120 And are you the only investor in the business? 652 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,160 So actually we've just closed around, 653 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,200 we've just raised 1.4 million. 654 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,760 We raised £700,000 through what I call super angels, 655 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,120 predominantly from the games industry. 656 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,960 And then we secured our seventh Innovate UK grant 657 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,400 for 700,000. 658 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,680 So they match-funded the investment. 659 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,120 How are you marketing this? 660 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,200 Because it sounds like this is for schools. 661 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,280 By going into schools and doing play testing, 662 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,520 by going to public spaces, by doing a bit of social media marketing. 663 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,360 OK. I have a question about the business model, 664 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,920 which is how you intend to make money, 665 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,080 because it's pretty difficult to make money from schools. 666 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,240 Yeah, it is. So that's why - we're at the intersection 667 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,160 of gaming and education. 668 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,880 So our business model ensures that the games are free 669 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,120 for children, the end beneficiary. 670 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,840 But we charge £20 per year for a turbo GCSE game. 671 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,760 Who are you charging £20 a year to? 672 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,440 The client will be the parent for the GCSEs 673 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,760 because where they buy revision textbooks, 674 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,600 exam questions, that sort of thing, 675 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,320 this is a supplemental tool. 676 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,080 And then we've just finished building our Creative Spark, 677 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,840 which was funded by a £350,000 Innovate Smart Grant. 678 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,480 And the USP around that is that it allows educators 679 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,160 to go in and track how well a player is doing, 680 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,200 so that subscription is being sold to schools. 681 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,760 My concern is there's been a lot of grants, 682 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,200 but is there any evidence of a business model here? 683 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,000 Yeah, I think it's a very valid concern. 684 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,440 We're pre-revenue and we have been in two years of very deep R&D, 685 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,200 and we now need to pivot 686 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,160 and really start selling our subscriptions. 687 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,560 And with the games industry, it is slightly different in that 688 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,960 the production cycle does take longer, 689 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,800 but when you release, it can be explosive. 690 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,760 So this is a different business model. 691 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,080 A really dear friend of mine heads up one of the gaming teams 692 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,280 in Sony, and she describes this, 693 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,920 we just develop and develop and develop and develop, 694 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,080 and who knows why, suddenly one of those games absolutely blows up, 695 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,520 and the others just never see the light of day. 696 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,040 So at what point do you think this is going to go live? 697 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,520 So we're working on the bundle of five games 698 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,720 on the core platform, by winter, 699 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:43,760 but we are also releasing the games separately as stand-alone subject. 700 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,120 So we will release Climate Spark just as a single stand-alone app 701 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,880 in the App Store, but it will be exactly the same content 702 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,880 as will be on the whole platform as well. 703 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,880 OK, I'm glad I'm unpicking this because this is becoming 704 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,120 a little bit clearer. So over here, you've got the big 705 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,320 platform with a load of topics on it. 706 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,520 And that, you're going to sell into education? 707 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,440 Yeah, primarily local authorities and schools and teachers. 708 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,960 And the kids will be beneficiaries. 709 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,600 Then over here, you've got lots of individual topics 710 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,640 that are going to be on the App Store, 711 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,040 and if you're a parent and you want your child 712 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,000 to get familiar with climate change, you're going to download. 713 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,400 - Have I got it? - You absolutely have. 714 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,800 OK, thank you. 715 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,120 - Reedah, hi. Do you know my background in this market? - I do. 716 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,440 - OK. - Well, to a degree, yeah. 717 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,480 I just want to explain it. 718 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,400 I've got a quite a huge level of humility, 719 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,760 but I'm explaining it because I think you need to know. 720 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,000 The irony of saying, "I've got a huge level of humility!" 721 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,080 That's quite ironic. 722 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,280 And that's why also I'm putting it out there 723 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,800 because there's no other Dragon 724 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,200 that has the background in this sector than me. 725 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,280 In fact, I was the lead adviser in government about this subject. 726 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,120 - I'm aware of that. - And I created Britain's 727 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,720 first enterprise entrepreneurship qualification, 728 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:01,560 as well, teaching young people enterprise and education. 729 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,480 The software that we use, that we've developed, 730 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,160 I could class it as a game because they do 731 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,200 go into certain elements of learning. 732 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,320 It's all driven by technology. 733 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,200 But I do this through a charity 734 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,360 and we've struggled to get schools to pay. 735 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,560 We've struggled to get even, would you believe, parents to pay? 736 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,040 And we've ended up paying, 737 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,080 because we think it's important. 738 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,960 Yeah, I mean, that's why I've just got on with it and done it. 739 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,920 I know, and this is why I so admire you, 740 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,280 I really do. 741 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,280 I think you're a leading light in this. 742 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,040 Thank you very much. 743 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,160 But the only way that this can happen 744 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,880 is in an embedment in our national curriculum. 745 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,520 But I can tell you, 746 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,960 I've been doing this since 2009, 747 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,720 and I have been relentless, and I have still not succeeded 748 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:53,040 in embedding it in the national curriculum. 749 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,520 And I'm talking about enterprise and entrepreneurship, by the way. 750 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,840 And I wouldn't say give up, but I think it's really tough. 751 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,240 - So for that reason, I'm out. - OK, thank you. 752 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,560 So I have a, quite an interesting background in gaming. 753 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,120 In fact, I actually think my business 754 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,400 was built on the success of us launching a game. 755 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,880 And we went on to do another game, which didn't do as well. 756 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,120 To Deborah's point that it is hit and miss, and it's hard to know 757 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,120 because the mechanics of that game were identical. 758 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,600 And as an investment, there's something missing. 759 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,520 And it is that commercialisation. 760 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,320 There's a possibility, 761 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,040 but that is heavily based on fortune and hitting zeitgeist. 762 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,400 There's just too many question marks in my head 763 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,800 for how we, how we get there, 764 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,120 that I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best. 765 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,120 Thank you very much. I appreciate that. 766 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,160 So... 767 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,960 - You're good. - Thank you. 768 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,840 And you're doing an important thing. 769 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,800 Which bits of that sound like something 770 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,200 that I wouldn't want to be involved in? 771 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,600 So I'm involved with a business 772 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,920 that sells into 6,000 schools already. 773 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,680 And I know very well the founder of Mumsnet, 774 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,680 - who gives you a great network in terms of reaching out. - Yep. 775 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,080 And I know this would be right up her street. 776 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,400 Why wouldn't it be? You know, she wants to do good things. 777 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,320 So yes, I'm going to offer you all of the money. 778 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,760 I'm going to offer you the £10,000 for the ask. 779 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,040 So for 1% of the business. 780 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,680 Thank you. Thank you, Deborah. 781 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,240 - I'll tell you what I think, Reedah. - OK. 782 00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:45,240 I think you've got something here 783 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,960 because I am absolutely in that space you talk about. 784 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,640 My kids are seven and ten, and I can understand as a parent 785 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,360 why I would be encouraging them to use this. 786 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,080 And actually, I think your chance of success is far greater 787 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,480 if you do have a Dragon onboard. 788 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,320 - Yeah. - Because you do need a lot of help with that commercialisation. 789 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,920 But you've got real vision and purpose, 790 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,760 and I have that shared vision and purpose that you do. 791 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,560 So I'm going to make you an offer 792 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,680 - for the £10,000 you've offered for the 1%. - Wow, thank you so much. 793 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,080 - I'll join you on this journey. - Thank you. 794 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,600 Look, you're very credible. 795 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,960 You've put up 470,000 of your own money. 796 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,600 You've given up a very lucrative job, and I respect you for that. 797 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,680 - Thank you. - You know, 798 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,720 and I think, I'm sure you've had sleepless nights. 799 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,960 - I have. - Look... 800 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,720 ..I do admire you, and I respect you a lot, but I can't do it for 1%. 801 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:51,200 What I can do is talk about giving you 802 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,200 some office space for six months. 803 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,280 You'd be sitting right next to my office. 804 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,840 So on a constant input basis, 805 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,680 bouncing off ideas. 806 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,200 So I would give you the whole 10,000, 807 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,200 - but I want 5%. - OK. 808 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,000 And for that, I think I would give you more time 809 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,680 - than I would normally give to anybody else. - OK. 810 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:20,120 5%? 811 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,000 So I just really want to thank you all for your feedback. 812 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,400 And I really would love to have all three of the Dragons, 813 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,680 if that's at all possible. 814 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,080 And I wonder, Touker, if there's any way 815 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,800 that you would consider the 1% 816 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,280 rather than the 5% for the £10,000, 817 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,760 because I do feel it's a really fair offer. 818 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,320 It is fair offer. 819 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,000 If I'm going to be a semi-passive investor. 820 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,600 And you've got two great offers here and I'm not saying, 821 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,440 and with all due respect, 822 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,920 they can both deliver, you know, but you won't see them every day. 823 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,600 It's a slight difference. That's what I'm offering. 824 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:08,920 So I'd really like to accept both offers, 825 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:13,760 if you would consider both investing 10,000 each 826 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,680 and taking 1% each. 827 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,160 Absolutely. 828 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,640 If Touker would consider doing the same? 829 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,320 Why not? 830 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,800 - Amazing! Amazing! - Well done. - Thank you. 831 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,040 Three Dragons! Brilliant! 832 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,240 A right result for Reedah... 833 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:42,120 - Well done. - Well done. - Well done. 834 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,880 ..who departs with £30,000... 835 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,440 How to slay a Dragon, or three? 836 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,040 ..and the backing of a trio of Dragons, 837 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,040 one of whom was convinced into 838 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,320 breaking his number one rule in the Den. 839 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,560 - I couldn't say no. - You couldn't say no. 840 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,040 That's your new slogan. 841 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,320 "I do get out of bed for 1%." 842 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:06,880 Look, she's broken the curse. 843 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,120 But you know something? 844 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,480 She's put a lot of her own money into this, 845 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,240 and I admire what she's doing. 846 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,920 I'm feeling relieved, and over the moon. 847 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,680 I did not expect this result at all, 848 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,040 but I'm really, really excited 849 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,040 to see how quickly we can scale and grow now. 850 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,640 INDISTINCT CHATTER 851 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,680 - Hi, I'm Rebecca. - Hi, I'm Sophie. We are former flatmates, 852 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,720 university friends and business partners from London. 853 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:56,600 - Here we go. - OK. 854 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,560 Sophie and I flat-shared for years together. 855 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,160 And with other friends. 856 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,800 And having seen when sometimes it goes wrong, 857 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,880 we wanted to find a better way for people to flat-share. 858 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,240 But Rebecca and Sophie aren't just business partners, 859 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:14,040 they're also besties. 860 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,280 Oh, my God! 861 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,080 It's actually really, really helpful because it means 862 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,120 that the first step before we might disagree with something 863 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,960 is always kindness and forgiveness, 864 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,560 rather than wanting to jump in. 865 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,000 I feel very, very lucky to do 866 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,360 the one thing I feel most passionate about, with someone I love. 867 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,720 - Hi, I'm Rebecca. - And I'm Sophie. 868 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,920 And together we bring you MatesPlace, 869 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,600 a revolutionary app that's changing the private rental market. 870 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,920 Now, young people today have been termed Generation Rent. 871 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,080 They've been priced out of the property market 872 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,960 and they're living in rented, often shared rented accommodation 873 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,560 for longer than ever before. 874 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,200 But flat-sharing comes with its own set of problems. 875 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,360 There aren't enough properties on the market. 876 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:11,880 There are fraudulent listings, 877 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,840 and potentially worst of all, there's nightmare flatmates. 878 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,480 A few years ago, I was flat-sharing, like many others do. 879 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,360 I found my flatmate online. 880 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,320 Unfortunately, after a few months of not paying rent, 881 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,960 he disappeared in the night with a load of my belongings. 882 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,200 It turns out he'd lied about where he worked 883 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,080 and changed his contact details. 884 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,080 And with no friends in common, he was untraceable. 885 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,440 So on the realisation that I wanted the safety 886 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,600 and trust that comes from living with friends, 887 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,200 or friends of friends, rather than complete strangers, 888 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,400 MatesPlace was born. 889 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,240 It's an app on which anyone can list their properties 890 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:56,960 or search for available rooms and through their phone contacts, 891 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,760 it shows them if they have mutual friends 892 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,360 in common with a potential housemate. 893 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,560 And that way, their mates do the vetting for them, 894 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,280 such as, will we get on? 895 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,680 Will they pay the rent on time? Are they trustworthy? 896 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,000 Since we launched the app three years ago, 897 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,360 we've now passed 100,000 downloads. 898 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,920 We have between 700 and 900 rooms live at any given time, and although 899 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,840 most of them are concentrated in London at the moment, 900 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,320 we have presence in 14 major cities in the UK. 901 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,840 Now, the app is free for anyone to download and use, 902 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,080 but in January we launched a paid version 903 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,200 that gives users access to premium features, 904 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,680 and we have big plans for MatesPlace. 905 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,720 So we are looking for £100,000 for 5% of the business, 906 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:40,040 which will allow us to build-out new features 907 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,800 and rapidly scale-up marketing to reach new customers. 908 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,240 Thank you, and we welcome any questions. 909 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,920 A smartphone app which gives users the peace of mind 910 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,000 that comes from living with mutual acquaintances 911 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,760 is the eureka moment of Rebecca Moule and Sophie Emla. 912 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:05,120 The pair are seeking £100,000 in return for 5% of their business. 913 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,240 Deborah Meaden is first to explore the proposition in more depth. 914 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,200 Rebecca, Sophie, hi. 915 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,560 Can I... I'm not completely sure I understand your model. 916 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,760 I know what you're doing. I'm just trying to work out 917 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,960 the piece that says that you're actually searching 918 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,600 through people's contacts to find somebody they know. 919 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,720 So can you explain that bit to me? How does that work? 920 00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:40,040 So when you sign up on the app, we ask for your name, 921 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,000 your phone number, email address, and password. 922 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,200 Standard create an account. Then when you go into the app, 923 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,720 it'll ask permission to see your contacts. 924 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,720 So if one of your friends in your phone book 925 00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:52,200 is already a user on the app, 926 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,560 they'll be added as a friend within the app. 927 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,960 And that is termed a first-degree connection. 928 00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,480 And then their friends in the app are second-degree connection. 929 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,880 And we go up to third, because we feel that's about 930 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,400 as far as a sort of social network really extends. 931 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,440 And why does that give me security? 932 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,720 So you are able to trace, 933 00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:12,440 so if you look for a room, you can define which level 934 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,840 of connection you're comfortable with. 935 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,960 So, first level would tell you exactly who the friend is. 936 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,360 Second, you can click 937 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,200 and see which friends you have in common. 938 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,640 Third, we don't give exactly the details, 939 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,440 but there's some comfort in knowing they're within your social network. 940 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,040 Rebecca, Sophie, it comes across as a great concept, 941 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,640 but you mentioned at the start that your experience that you had, 942 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,040 which wasn't great, and you didn't know the person. 943 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,800 Is that really atypical, though? 944 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,520 Because I would have thought most people would go to an agency 945 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,800 and the agency will take out employment references, 946 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,120 the agency might do a DBS check. 947 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,120 They'll also give you a reference from the previous landlord. 948 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:58,200 So you're taking very limited risk by dealing with an agency. 949 00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,960 But my phone book could be full of, 950 00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:03,720 you know, not very nice people. 951 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,680 So what's your check specifically 952 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,240 and give me the reason why you're different. 953 00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:14,000 The difference is a lot of people have a lead tenant on a let. 954 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,320 So there's six of you living together. 955 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,840 One of you is listed as lead tenant 956 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,840 and they sign a lot of the paperwork. 957 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,720 But you have people moving in and out of that flat 958 00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:24,120 who the agencies, they might never see, 959 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,480 they don't know about. So actually, 960 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,160 I think the flat-share market is hugely unseen by agents. 961 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,520 Yeah, but what are the checks you're doing, though? 962 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,800 So, what I would be asking through my friends, 963 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,080 - like - do you know this person? - Yeah. - What are they like? 964 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,240 - I think that's a problem. - OK. 965 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,400 I would want to have a check on their reference. 966 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,040 You want to take a reference on them. 967 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,160 You'd want to have an employment check. 968 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,720 That's just not how it works though, is it, in reality. 969 00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:53,960 The reason I know this is because I lived in Manchester for two years, 970 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,080 on the basis of what you just said, just room hopping, 971 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,520 you know, and I actually do think that the strongest point 972 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,800 of reference for me would be knowing someone 973 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,520 that knows you, and being able to have a conversation with them. 974 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,840 So the idea, I get it. 975 00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:09,960 So let's get into these metrics, then. 976 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,160 - Yep. - You said you had 100,000 downloads. 977 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,880 - Yes. - Why are you getting nervous? - Why am I getting... Sorry? 978 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,280 You looked like you were getting nervous. 979 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,440 You said you had 100,000... 980 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,440 This is Sophie's fun bit. She loves the data. 981 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,040 Can you tell me what your key metrics are? 982 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,840 What metrics are you guys obsessing over every week, month? 983 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,800 So, we do track things like, 984 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,320 we know the average usage is around 24 minutes 985 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:28,960 for the app in a single session. 986 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,920 The early sessions is about four to five minutes. 987 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,240 So that first session is really key to getting someone to interact. 988 00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:36,360 They tend to tail off quite rapidly. 989 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,280 So, 14 or 15 days is about the average. 990 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,080 In terms of cohort retention, if you acquired 100 users today, 991 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,400 12 months from now, 992 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:44,960 how many of them would still be using the app? 993 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,760 Most likely, we would still have 90% 994 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,120 of their accounts, but actively using very few of them. 995 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,760 - How many roughly do you think? - I think probably 5% to 10%. 996 00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,280 But the issue is that a lot 997 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,000 of them would then be maybe a repeat user within the year. 998 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,480 Because then the tenancy comes up within a year, 999 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:05,840 they go to find something else. 1000 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,040 And so with all their details on there, 1001 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,760 they're already on the app and have their connection. 1002 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,240 It's like a dating app. 1003 00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:14,040 Get a good date and then come back later. 1004 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,680 Rebecca and Sophie, um, so what do you charge? 1005 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,080 Um, so we have... It's a pre... 1006 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,520 So, premium tier starts at seven days for 9.99, 1007 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:36,480 14 days for 14.99, and then 28 days for 24.99. 1008 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,720 Can I say so, guys, you've got 1009 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:40,360 to be thinking much bigger than this. 1010 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,520 - Because what worries me is your business model. - Mm-hm. 1011 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,960 Because you're going to go a long way to take a lot of money. 1012 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,960 You've got to add a lot more features 1013 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,720 to this app to actually be a credible business. 1014 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,800 Yeah, but alongside that, we are 1015 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,160 looking at various other avenues for revenue. 1016 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:02,680 One is just around... 1017 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,560 ..maintaining it around the flats. 1018 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:05,800 But also I think we're looking 1019 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,360 at exploring recommendations for other services. 1020 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,280 We've been approached through our Facebook group about listing 1021 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:16,440 for cleaners and for removal firms. So there's all sorts of businesses 1022 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,680 where people would like a personal recommendation. 1023 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,800 So say I wanted a plumber, I'm likely to call my friend to say, 1024 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,480 "Do you know anyone trustworthy?" Because I don't want to get scammed. 1025 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,000 I go online and I look at a review. I don't trust those reviews. 1026 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,960 I don't know who was paid to write them. 1027 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,160 But if my friend has used that person, I'm more likely... 1028 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,240 You're going to charge the plumber 1029 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:36,880 to list themselves on or you won't charge them anything? 1030 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,640 So we would likely let them list and then we would look and see... 1031 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,240 ..probably explore, say, kickbacks for referrals. 1032 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,600 Look, I think you've got something, 1033 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,520 and yet it's like a jigsaw that's not complete. 1034 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,600 And I'm involved in co-living. And I'm on the board of a... 1035 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,120 We just launched in Battersea at 1,400 a month, 1036 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,760 which is all the amenities. 1037 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,560 So could you eventually reverse the business and 1038 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,960 have people advertising rooms, where you get a commission? 1039 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,760 Could that be another string to your bow? 1040 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,720 Yeah, it's something we certainly... 1041 00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:21,880 We had an initial conversation with a co-living business who 1042 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:23,720 were interested in exploring that. 1043 00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:27,920 Yeah. I mean, co-living is definitely an easy add-on... 1044 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,640 - Yeah. - Yeah. - ..you could think about, you know? 1045 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:35,760 When I look at businesses like this, 1046 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,880 my big concern is if I put in 100K today, 1047 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,280 that 100K basically will be down the hole by the end of the year. 1048 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,200 And with technology, 1049 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,800 you do need to be well-capitalised. Because when you launch technology, 1050 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,440 as you know, you launch it with a hypothesis 1051 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,680 and the hypothesis is nearly always wrong. 1052 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,640 And you smell your way to the right product-market fit. 1053 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,680 And I just think this is still pretty insecure 1054 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,720 because you've got some pivoting to do. 1055 00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:08,040 And I don't know if we've got the cash and the time. 1056 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,240 So I'm going to say that I'm out. 1057 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,960 Uh, I think I'm kind of similar. 1058 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,800 Um, I think you've... You both are really impressive. 1059 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,000 You really are. Um... 1060 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,560 But in terms of the business and what you've pitched, 1061 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,080 it's going to come back to one thing. 1062 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,600 You need money and a lot more money. 1063 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,720 So I'm going to have to say that I'm out. 1064 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:41,640 Guys, I'll tell you where I'm at. 1065 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,120 It's complicated. It feels high-risk. It feels like 1066 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,640 there's lots of different business opportunities going on. 1067 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,120 You haven't really convinced me of it, 1068 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:53,760 so I'm going to say I'm out. 1069 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,160 Thank you. 1070 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:06,280 So for me, um, there's something not quite that... I've got... 1071 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,880 I've described this many times. Row of switches, lots of questions. 1072 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,680 You come across really well. Very, very impressive. 1073 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,840 And YOU have held me in here longer than 1074 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,120 I think I might have been if it was presented by somebody else. 1075 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,920 So that's all great. However, 1076 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,320 there is the last switch that isn't somehow working for me. 1077 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,920 So I wish you all the best, but I'm out. 1078 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,280 Hi, guys. I've been on the fence. 1079 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,200 And I'm trying to explore in my head. Um... 1080 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,320 What you've pitched is not investable. 1081 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,360 But at the same time, I don't want to remake your strategy. 1082 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,040 And that's the problem in my head, 1083 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,840 because I think what you've pitched, you're going to struggle. 1084 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,760 However, what you're building as a community is valuable. 1085 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,400 And I'm very willing to give you a lifeline to see 1086 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,160 whether another part of the business can be attached or not. 1087 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:17,480 However, there's a price. 1088 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,320 I'd give you all of the money. 1089 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:23,600 100 grand, 1090 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,200 but I want 20%. 1091 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,160 Um... 1092 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:42,120 Touker, we came in with some very firm boundaries between us. 1093 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,960 - And 20% definitely wasn't in there at all. - Mm-hm. 1094 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:53,840 Um, but we really respect what you've said about us 1095 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,640 - and platform for the business and the community. - Mm-hm. 1096 00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,120 And we're really flattered that you want 1097 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,480 to give us a chance to try and make it work. 1098 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,160 So we would like to accept your offer. 1099 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,840 - Great! - Hey! - Hey! 1100 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,560 Success for Rebecca and Sophie... 1101 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,960 - Thank you so much. Great. - ..who leave the Den with £100,000... 1102 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,760 - Congratulations. - Well done. - Thank you. - Look at that! 1103 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,160 - Well done. - Thank you. 1104 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,760 ..and the backing of a Dragon with the expertise 1105 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,240 to help their property app turn big profits. 1106 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,840 We're so pleased to have someone with Touker's experience onboard. 1107 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,320 Yeah, he seems really invested in us and seems to believe in us. 1108 00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,360 So it's an amazing opportunity. 1109 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,040 - Well done, Touker. I think you've got two great, great... - Yes. 1110 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,800 - They're amazing. - ..great entrepreneurs there. 1111 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:03,840 Next time... 1112 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,120 I hope they tell me that I was wrong. 1113 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,560 I would love to be right 1114 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,400 and these guys would never live it down if I am. 1115 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,600 - You've remortgaged your houses?! - Yeah. - Yeah. 1116 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,720 Flabber is gasted. 1117 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,760 - What's the strategy? - Get a Dragon. 1118 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,120 There's no doubt that you're here for me. 1119 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,200 Surprise, surprise!