I'm Andrew, I'm 39 years old and I'm from Newcastle.
Who's your favourite?
I think Sara is.
Got to be, she's from the north-east. She's the canniest.
Time to go, man.
I don't think the Dragons are going to know what hit them
when we hit the Den.
We're going to bring some drama. We're going to bring some theatre.
We're going to bring the best of pro wrestling.
Hopefully we're going to put the Dragons on the back foot
to the point where they get in their back pocket
and give me a bit of money.
Yo, yo, yo, Dragons, I want you all to make some noise.
- Whoa! - Yay!
My name is Man Like DeReiss, and I'm a wrestler at North Wrestling.
- And I am the champion. - Yes!
And I'm here to offer...a...
GRUNTING
Yeah.
Yeah. No, no, no.
Give me that.
I don't care about these piles of money and this investment.
I'm Rory Coyle, and I'm here for the biggest prize
in pro wrestling, that North Wrestling Championship.
So what do you say? On Dragons' Den, let's go.
- All right, then, let's go. - Yeah, let's go, you show him.
You show him, mate.
Oh!
Yeah.
Oh!
Yeah.
Yeah!
That's it, Dragons! He's out!
Whoa, whoa. What?
No! One, two, three, out!
- Yes! - Well done, guys.
Sorry about that.
I'm Andrew. I'm the owner of North Wrestling,
a modern pro wrestling company based in Newcastle upon Tyne.
I'm here to ask you for £60,000 of investment
for 25% of my business.
So I fell in love with wrestling when I was a kid.
I used to sit on the couch with my dad,
and we used to watch it on a Saturday morning.
As a teen, I used to go to live wrestling shows,
and as an adult, I'd take my kids to wrestling shows too.
So eight years ago, I started North Wrestling.
CROWD CHANTING
I used everything that I had learned on the way as a fan
to start that company.
The vision for North Wrestling is the ultimate variety show.
I want to put a show on that has
the biggest superheroes against the hardest supervillains,
David versus Goliath.
I want to create a community around what we've done.
I want the audience to feel like me and my dad felt
when we watched wrestling on a Saturday morning.
I knew that we had done this with our biggest show last year,
with 700 people in an arena in Newcastle.
But we have to take it to a wider audience.
I'm asking for your investment in the magic that is pro wrestling.
Thank you.
An impactful pitch from wrestling impresario, Andrew Bowers.
Guys, thank you very much. That was really entertaining.
- Thank you, guys. - Well done.
Andrew is seeking £60,000 in return for a 25% share in his company.
They're friends again!
An all-action demo might have floored the Dragons,
but will the business pack a similar punch?
Andrew.
- That was quite a performance. - Yeah.
So if I'm to invest in your business,
describe to me what is your business?
What am I investing in?
We're a ticket-selling business first and foremost.
- My job is to sell tickets. - OK. - But in the modern world,
we also have, you know, there's other forms of revenue.
So merchandising is a classic one.
But also, it's the kind of residual online video stuff
that we do.
So we try and tell a lot of stories on social media.
And with that comes many other revenue streams.
OK, so give me an example.
Your next big fight night.
How many people do you expect on that night?
So we estimate 700 people getting through the door.
And how much a head?
So that would be, we tier the prices.
So the entry point is £28,
so we're averaging at about £35 on average.
- Right. - We are looking then to sell 700 of them.
- So if you can do the quick maths on that I guess... - 21 grand?
Yeah. So to run a show probably costs us
somewhere around 15,000 and £16,000 at the moment.
- So it's quite a low margin? - Yeah, low margins to a certain extent.
Low margin. So give us the last few years
of revenue and gross profit and net.
So last year we made £43,000 worth of revenue.
Gross profit was £17,000 with a net of £2,000.
- Is that after paying yourself? - Uh, no, because...
- You can't be paying yourself at 17 grand. - No.
Not paying myself at the minute.
- So how are you living? - So I'm a graphic designer.
- I'm a creative... - You got a side hustle?
- Or this is a side hustle? I can't work it out. - Yeah, yeah.
This is probably the side hustle that is becoming the main thing.
But I work in wrestling as well. I work as a consultant
for another wrestling company as well.
- So I get paid for that. - Yeah. - I'm a creative hustler.
- Andrew. Hi. - Hi, Peter.
- Great impact. - Thank you.
Really good.
In essence, it is what it says on the tin, really.
And you said it.
- It's a ticket-selling event business. - Yeah.
If I compare this to other similar events,
doesn't your business need a sort of a hero name
that will bring an audience?
- So, for example, we all know The Rock. - Yeah.
I couldn't even tell you
what the event is or what he's part of.
But I can tell you that if The Rock is going
and he's turning up, he's going to sell tickets.
Is that not what you really need to do to bring the following?
Absolutely. I think breaking into the mainstream
is bringing something that non-wrestling fans
can recognise and go, "Right, who's this?"
Or something that surpasses what pro wrestling is.
- Yeah. - I think... - What's your plan there?
Who's the most famous wrestler in the UK?
So Joe Hendry is a big name in the UK.
He's contracted over to a big company in America,
but he performs over here as well.
See the issue with wrestling, or pro wrestling in Britain is
we have, for pound for pound,
we create some amazing talent.
But they have to leave the British Isles
to then go on and be a star.
And what is the biggest, what's the largest event
in the UK for wrestling?
So the largest event isn't run by a British company, I would say.
I think British companies are all on the same level at the moment,
of which we're probably up there with 700 to 800 people.
The largest events, though, are WWE or AEW.
They bring their show to town,
they sell out all the way through wherever they go.
But then when you look at that scale, though,
when you say that you're up there with those players
- and you're generating 17K gross profit. - Yeah.
I think that sort of says the issue, doesn't it?
The scale of the opportunity potentially isn't there.
Possibly, but I think when you break into a mainstream market,
and you get more people in, the actual costs of running the show,
they're relatively negligible
to what revenue you can bring in from a wider audience.
- Andrew, hi. - Hi. - I might be wrong,
but I think I might be the only
Dragon who's actually ever put on wrestling matches.
Have you, actually?
That was a pretty, pretty safe guess.
- Yeah. So in my holiday parks... - Of course.
..we used to put on wrestling matches every week,
for many, many years,
but they slowly dwindled, less and less attendance.
And actually, at one point, we just thought,
this is old-fashioned.
Brace yourself for these words. "This is old-fashioned."
- Yeah. - This is not a thing of the future,
and it's not attracting people.
So we're talking 20 years ago.
So what's actually happened to the market?
Are there more people going to see wrestling,
less people going to see wrestling?
There's loads more people going to see wrestling now
than there was back then.
And the audience has changed as to who it was.
I think if you look at buying habits as well,
people are buying experiences
rather than just going out on an ad hoc night out.
But the evidence says differently because the evidence says,
and these are your words "Our wrestlers are leaving these isles
- "to go and wrestle in the US." - Yeah.
That tells me there's an issue with the audience size in the UK.
That's supplementing what they do in Britain.
The reason that they go to the US is because wrestlers want
to get signed by the WWE or AEW, over there,
because they're the only alternative to actually giving you
a career as a wrestler. We don't have that here.
What you're not asking yourself, Andrew, is why.
Demand.
- Steven has got the answer. - Yeah, of course, it's economics.
Why?
It is economic.
If there were enough people here who were that interested
in what, and there's loads of it.
You know, you get thousands of people.
We're talking a population of 65 million.
There are not enough of those people to actually support the industry
to the level at which that it can be supported in foreign territories.
I mean, that's just how economics works.
- No? - Well, yeah, maybe, I think. But, you know,
you see the audiences that are watching wrestling
over here and they are huge.
It's about tapping that and giving them an alternative
to American wrestling.
Andrew, when I was young, I spent all my childhood watching wrestling.
And then at some point when it came off TV,
that demand for wrestling and that sort of obsession with it,
me and my brothers switched over to other things, like boxing.
And the UFC rose out of nowhere.
British boxing is at an all-time high.
Now influencer boxing is selling out stadiums
up and down the country,
and wrestling seems to have vanished.
And now it's only left at WrestleMania,
which is, like, once a year, when my timeline again talks
about wrestling for one day and then after WrestleMania, it's gone again.
So when I look at this business, I go, actually,
to win here, we have to cultivate broad cultural demand
in wrestling again.
And honestly, to win in that race,
you'd need tens of millions of dollars potentially.
So with the 60K here, I think we could accelerate this business,
but not to a point where I'd make a return as an investor.
So I'm going to say that I'm out.
Thank you.
Andrew.
Hey, Peter.
I think this is a great business for you, and I hope it continues.
But as an investment,
there's a ceiling to the opportunity here,
and I can't see how I could extract any money out of it.
- So for that reason, I'm out. But thanks for coming in. - Thank you.
- Andrew. - Yes.
At the end of the day, I can't see
how giving you 60,000 of my hard-earned money,
I can't see a return on it. And for that reason, Andrew,
I wish you all the best, but I'm out.
Thank you.
Andrew.
From what I saw on that screen there,
you're putting on a very good product.
- Yeah. - That isn't the problem.
In fact, the fact you're putting on a good product has kind of worried
me a bit because you are putting on a good product
and it hasn't whooshed off.
It's a business for you.
It's a business of passion and love and community,
but it's not an investment for me.
I never thought I'd say these words.
I think I've left my wrestling days behind!
- But you know where I'm going. - Yeah.
I'm afraid I won't be investing. I'm out.
Thank you very much.
So that just leaves the local lass.
- Howay! - Howay!
What does that mean?
I don't know if anyone's ever actually defined what that means.
Or there's a general understanding.
Just a good word, howay.
Howay. Howay!
Howay.
I got excited when you came in. I loved the performance.
I loved the presentation of it.
When you were talking, I'm thinking,
oh, this is brilliant.
But when you described the business opportunity,
it's not exciting really.
So I'm going to politely decline the offer and say, all the best,
but I'm out too.
- Thank you very much. - Good luck, Andrew, follow your passion.
Thank you for the opportunity.
A high-octane arrival, but much lower-key departure.
Unlike his wrestlers, Andrew couldn't twist any arms
and must leave the Den without a deal.
I feel disappointed we didn't get investment,
but the Dragons were real fun to talk to
and I've taken a lot away from it.
That was a bit of excitement for the Den.
I enjoyed that.
Do you know what's quite nice though?
It's quite nice to see a fight
from the contestant perspective in the Den rather than the Dragons.
- I don't know. I learned some moves there. - Oh! - It's coming.
It's the elbow. Ah!
Here we go. My name is Fiona Ritchie
and I'm from near Stirling, in Scotland.
I just have to remember not to embarrass my kids!
I've always had a passion
for really clean ingredients in really good skincare,
and I wanted to apply my knowledge
and skills to skin that had been tattooed.
Tattoos.
I am tattooed from just below there.
My favourite tattoo is the one on your lower back.
- The Kundalini snake. - Yeah, that one.
I don't have any tattoos.
However, if today goes well, I'll get a dragon!
Hello and thank you very much for having me here.
My name is Fiona Ritchie and I'm here to ask for £60,000
for 15% in my award-winning tattoo aftercare product.
The ink balm is a stick of natural vegan oils
and butters that could help to continue
the life of your tattoo
and keep the colours bright and the lines defined.
But the ink balm is actually more than just a beautiful,
nourishing skincare product.
It's a celebration of tattoo artistry.
We work with tattoo artists and we encourage them
to create their own bespoke labelling.
They can sell it through their own studios,
which increases their own revenue,
and it also helps them to promote good-quality,
long-term care of the artwork.
In the 18 months that we've been selling the products,
we've sold over 3,500 sticks and raised over £20,000 of turnover.
We want to take the brand into two different markets.
The first market is the tattoo studios.
At the moment, we're working with ten studios in the UK and overseas.
The other market I would like to take the brand into
is the gifting market.
Everyone knows someone with a tattoo and I want this to be the go-to
and the on-the-go product for your tattooed skin.
At the moment, we're working with the Superdrug website,
the National Galleries of Scotland,
and we're in a conversation with WH Smith Retail about trying
the range out in one of their airport outlets.
If you'd like to go under your chairs,
there is a discovery box for you.
A range of natural skincare products specifically targeted
at those with tattoos...
- Thank you very much. - No worries. - Thank you.
..is the offering from Fiona Ritchie.
You have an un-fragranced tattoo balm.
You also have a fragrance balm, and I've asked five tattoo artists
to each create you an individual dragon tattoo.
So the dragon tattoo on the ink balm stick is specifically for you.
Fiona is seeking £60,000...
Beautiful.
..in return for 15% of her business.
It smells lovely as well. I can smell it.
- Can I smell it? - Yes.
- That's me. - That's the fragrance, Steven, that smells.
Steven Bartlett might be pleasant on the nose,
but Fiona has her eyes firmly fixed on a deal.
So will her products for tattoos enthuse or bemuse?
Right, Fiona. I'm going to ask questions now.
- This is not... - Yes, please do.
- My sisters have got tattoos, actually. - Yes.
And my younger sister,
- she's just had a tattoo done... - Yes.
..a tiny little tattoo on her wrist.
So I've been watching, you know,
she goes slightly red when it first started.
So she's going through the whole care piece.
But I don't pretend that I really know this market.
- That's OK. - So, how big is the market?
Well, they say that 40% of millennials and Gen Z have a tattoo,
and very few people have only one tattoo.
Once you start, it's very difficult to stop.
So the market is enormous.
In the UK, there are 3,000 studios and 10,000 tattoo artists.
And it's the most regularly opened shop in the UK at the moment,
just on the high street, so it's huge.
- And this lovely thing? - Yes.
How much would this cost?
So the discovery box retails at 38.50.
And can I buy them individually? I guess I can?
Yeah. So the ink balms themselves sell individually at £12.50 each.
They go to trade at £5.20, ex VAT,
and they can multiply that to 2.4.
And I make them for £3.30.
And how does that work?
- So I can see how that works in tattoo studios. - Yes.
- But you're talking to some big retailers. - Yes.
So what's the brand when you go into big retailers?
Because you're not going to be able to change the label for every...
No, no. So what we've done is the brand
will always be consistently the ink balm.
And if you have a look at the labels,
the space for the different tattoo artists' artwork
is the same space for every label,
so we just swap in the different artwork.
And we number them as well?
How does that work in retail?
In big retail, we have five designs.
They are here somewhere.
And my last question for the moment, because I expect there'll be more.
- Yes. - You sound like you're very familiar
with retail because you're talking about,
you know, mark-ups and you kind of use a language
- that tells me you have been there and done that. - Yes.
- So what's your background? - Well, I started my career
as an occupational therapist in the health service,
and then I had my two children, and I found myself
solo parenting them when they were two and three.
And I wanted to work, but I wanted to be there for them permanently.
So I started making handmade natural skincare back then.
So basically, I've run a business from then until now,
within the Scottish giftware market.
- And that's separate from this? - It's entirely separate.
- It's a very different... - And what's the turnover of that?
- The turnover of that is about £180,000. - Right, OK.
- Fiona? - Yes. - I think the most pressing question
for me as an investor here is
if you've ran that other business for a while...
- Yes. - ..and it's doing 180K income. - Yes.
How can you make a case to me
that this business will be different?
The business I've run so far has been,
and I don't like the term, kind of lifestyle.
It's enabled me to raise my children.
And the thing about this is, this is for me now.
You know, they have flown the nest
and I'm filling my nest with tattooed people,
which is wonderful, I have to say.
But this is a very defined market, I think,
and it's a burgeoning market.
So I think the potential for this business is enormous.
- I have a three-year plan... - OK.
..for the end of three years to have a turnover of 488,000.
So let's break down those numbers then.
So you said in the last 18 months you've done 20K.
- Yes. - In the last 12 months,
how much of that revenue has showed up?
In the last 12 months, probably half of that.
You've done 10K in the last year. So this year,
the next 12 months, what's the revenue?
I would like to have a revenue of 125,000.
OK, and where's that going to come from?
The business I've run so far
has always been done organically and kind of bootstrap.
I've never asked for funding or financing before,
and I would like to, this is why I'm here,
is to actually run a business with funds behind me,
to be able to bring in experts in, you know,
in marketing, in sales, to help me set up the manufacturing
to be able to absolutely accelerate forward.
- Fiona. - Yes, Touker. - You're very passionate about this.
- Yes. - I think the difficulty for me,
you've come in here, with a £20,000 turnover.
- Yes. - And you're very niche
in respect of focusing on the artists,
which I think is great, don't get me wrong.
- That's my unique selling point, I think, is the artwork. - Right.
But then I say to myself,
how big can this business really get?
- Yeah. - I also know that there is more
and more people who are willing to have tattoos.
And the question really is,
is your product must-have tattoo care?
- Mm. - And the moment you get to that, it's a product you could pick up
in Boots or whatever,
or you're aiming in a different end with the artists.
And I'm trying to work out - is the potential, A, with the artists?
Or is the potential to say, look,
whoever's got a tattoo, needs this to look after their tattoo?
- Which becomes a commodity. - Yes. - And I just think that the artistic
front might be holding back the business.
Yeah. What I wanted to create is a commodity that has shelf appeal,
that makes you go, "Ooh, I would really like that."
And by using tattoo art, you're drawn to it.
No, but I don't think it's that.
I personally think, this is my own view...
- Yes. - ..the tattoo art is great artistic.
- Yes. - But you've got to put that aside and say
whoever's got a tattoo, needs this.
Once you start selling the art,
they've got two things to worry about.
The consumer needs to know one thing.
"I've got a tattoo. I want to protect my tattoo.
- "That's for me." - Yes. Which, I have to say, is what
- the product is for. - But you're not selling it that way.
Your pitch is very much based around the artists, the studio and I...
That's one channel. I'm not saying you haven't got
the channel, but your main channel is mainstream.
Yes.
How many people in the country have got tattoos?
- A third, a third of people. - A third of the population? - Yeah.
- Well, that's your pitch. - Absolutely.
- It's huge. - But all this...
But then what people tend not to do is,
is look after them once they've got them and they're healed.
- Fiona, Fiona? - Sorry.
- You are 100% right. - Yes. - Just hit it. - Yes.
- You need them all to have one of these? - Yeah.
Because it's a must-have for tattoos.
- Yeah, absolutely. - And that's what I wanted to hear.
- Yeah. - Rather than, I want to work with the artists.
I want to put... That to me, is airy-fairy.
In real business,
you've got to have a product that you can say,
I am the number one tattoo ointment in the market.
And that's what you've got to be. But at the moment,
you've not convinced me that my investment,
- I'm going to get a return on it. - Right, OK, OK.
And for that reason, I'm out.
- Fiona, just a question. - Yes.
Something you said to Touker there, you said
the unique selling point of this business is the artwork?
- Yes. - Really, like, most of the growth of any business
at its heart comes from its unique selling point.
- Yes. - And if you're telling me that is the artwork,
- then I go, you have no unique selling point? - No, OK.
Because if I'm a rival brand,
if I wanted to completely destroy your moat around your castle,
all I've got to do is put some of that artwork on there.
- Yes. - So I'm going to say that I'm out,
- but I wish you the very best. - Well, thank you.
Thank you so much for considering it.
So, listen, I disagree with Touker.
- I think it is the whole artist piece... - Yes.
..that makes you different
because you have got so many alternatives.
So I think that you're going to do very well
with tattoo artists and the actual tattoo studios.
- Yes. - Because they are going to love
that they're going to be able
- to represent their creativity on that product. - Yes.
However,
I don't see the massive piece that you see.
- Yes. - So I'm afraid I'm going to say those words -
- I'm out. - That's fine. Thank you very much.
Fiona, I can see why it's attractive
for you to have an investor in the business.
- Yes. - I've got to sit, look, is it attractive for me
as an investor to have you within my portfolio?
What does that bring? How does that deliver for me?
And I think that is the bit that I'm struggling with is,
it's not an attractive investment proposition
from the standpoint of, what I give versus what I can make.
Absolutely.
- So I'm really sorry to say it, Fiona, but I'm out. - Yeah.
- Fiona. - Yes.
Congratulations on being able to, let's say,
pivot and create something and bring up two kids on your own.
That's, you've already done,
you've already got the tick in the box there.
And you're clearly going to need help here
and support and guidance, exactly as you said.
And sometimes that's exactly why investors come in.
- They do provide that for you. - Yes.
I don't think this is particularly niche either.
So it's an interesting one because like you say, the market is huge.
- Yes. - But it's specifically going
to the product that you've created.
You could quite easily go to all the tattoo studios
and get the product listed in there,
and I'm sure you're tenacious enough to go and do that yourself.
- Yeah. - And then once you've got 3,000 tattoo studios
and you're going to get the traction then
with the other players,
you're really starting to capitulate the market.
So I think you've got a real chance there of doing this.
But to try and look at this from my perspective and get excited about it
is a little bit tough, being honest with you.
Yeah, fair enough.
So I'm going to say that I'm not going to invest
and I'm out and I say good luck to you.
- Thank you very much. - Pleasure meeting you. - Thank you.
No deal for Fiona.
I want you to get a dragon tattoo now
because I thought if I got a Dragon, I'll get your tattoo.
But while she may have drawn a blank in the Den...
- Thank you very much. - Lovely to meet you, Fiona.
..the tattoo-care entrepreneur doesn't seem too needled.
I do understand why they didn't invest,
because it does look like a very small turnover so far,
but it's upwards and onwards for the brand,
and I'm still going to go on that journey.
Hi, my name is Reedah El-Saie and I live in London.
I never expected to be developing an ed-tech gaming studio,
but here I am looking for funding now.
- Oh, this looks good! - Gaming.
Brainspark, so a game to test your brain.
- Who's going to do it? Touker? - I need to test my brain.
Recharge.
I could easily have been a girl left in the village in Pakistan,
which is where my parents came from.
If they hadn't migrated to the UK
and really focused on us getting an education,
I don't think I'd be here today and I just feel
that if I have certain opportunities,
I have to really leverage those for the greater good.
That's something that's really important to me.
Hello, Dragons! My name is Reedah El-Saie.
I'm the founder of Brainspark Games.
I'm looking for £10,000 for 1% equity.
I started the company because I literally couldn't get
my kids to stop gaming.
I don't know if any of you have had this problem,
but when I was helping my son
with his eleven-plus exams a few years ago,
it occurred to me that if millions of children globally
are playing mobile games,
then why are we not disseminating educational content through games?
We've condensed 12 weeks of term-time learning
into just a few hours of fun, fast game play.
Our games are designed for girls and boys to be played
as part of a mainstream lesson plan and after-school activity,
or on the go if you're travelling or something like that.
We've play tested our games with over 1,800 children,
parents and teachers and developed a really strong product market fit,
and I hope that you will consider joining us on that journey.
So if I could ask one of the Dragons to have a demo, maybe with our game?
- Touker, go on. - Go on, come on.
Come on, it'll be fun.
They're setting me up. I know what they're doing!
A digital platform which aims to channel children's passion
for gaming into a love of learning,
is the offering from Reedah El-Saie.
If you just scroll through the carousel,
that gives you a sense of all the different subjects.
- Physics, maths... - Maths. - ..languages.
So these are a lot of the games that are currently in development.
So what we've done with the climate game is, we've researched
14 core subjects that explain
to children the causes of climate change.
So if we're going to industrialisation now, yep.
Reedah is seeking £10,000 in exchange for 1% of her business.
- So we always have exploration mode. - I've never done this.
And you can click to the portal.
And now you've got to find your way to the portal
to build a sustainable city.
So if you use the navigation button here, you can explore.
- So probably don't want to walk around... - Not on the road.
- Maybe on the pavement. - You don't want to get run over.
He's lost already!
Touker Suleyman may be struggling to get his bearings...
- I give up. - You did really well.
..but will this combination of technology and teaching
have the Dragons heading straight for their pockets?
Steven Bartlett is first to find out more.
Reedah, really interesting. What's your professional background?
So I'm a qualified barrister.
I've had a number of businesses in the creative industries,
and prior to starting this three or four years ago,
I worked as a portfolio manager in culture,
heritage-tech and education-led regeneration
with government in the UK and the Middle East.
Are you focused on this business now or are you doing something else?
Yeah, I resigned from a very
well-paid job that I absolutely loved,
in August '21, because I realised
that I either had to scale
and grow this and commit full-time, or stop.
So I've been full-time since.
So, funding wise, how have you funded this business?
So I've put in over £470,000 of my own money
from my salary and my savings.
And are you the only investor in the business?
So actually we've just closed around,
we've just raised 1.4 million.
We raised £700,000 through what I call super angels,
predominantly from the games industry.
And then we secured our seventh Innovate UK grant
for 700,000.
So they match-funded the investment.
How are you marketing this?
Because it sounds like this is for schools.
By going into schools and doing play testing,
by going to public spaces, by doing a bit of social media marketing.
OK. I have a question about the business model,
which is how you intend to make money,
because it's pretty difficult to make money from schools.
Yeah, it is. So that's why - we're at the intersection
of gaming and education.
So our business model ensures that the games are free
for children, the end beneficiary.
But we charge £20 per year for a turbo GCSE game.
Who are you charging £20 a year to?
The client will be the parent for the GCSEs
because where they buy revision textbooks,
exam questions, that sort of thing,
this is a supplemental tool.
And then we've just finished building our Creative Spark,
which was funded by a £350,000 Innovate Smart Grant.
And the USP around that is that it allows educators
to go in and track how well a player is doing,
so that subscription is being sold to schools.
My concern is there's been a lot of grants,
but is there any evidence of a business model here?
Yeah, I think it's a very valid concern.
We're pre-revenue and we have been in two years of very deep R&D,
and we now need to pivot
and really start selling our subscriptions.
And with the games industry, it is slightly different in that
the production cycle does take longer,
but when you release, it can be explosive.
So this is a different business model.
A really dear friend of mine heads up one of the gaming teams
in Sony, and she describes this,
we just develop and develop and develop and develop,
and who knows why, suddenly one of those games absolutely blows up,
and the others just never see the light of day.
So at what point do you think this is going to go live?
So we're working on the bundle of five games
on the core platform, by winter,
but we are also releasing the games separately as stand-alone subject.
So we will release Climate Spark just as a single stand-alone app
in the App Store, but it will be exactly the same content
as will be on the whole platform as well.
OK, I'm glad I'm unpicking this because this is becoming
a little bit clearer. So over here, you've got the big
platform with a load of topics on it.
And that, you're going to sell into education?
Yeah, primarily local authorities and schools and teachers.
And the kids will be beneficiaries.
Then over here, you've got lots of individual topics
that are going to be on the App Store,
and if you're a parent and you want your child
to get familiar with climate change, you're going to download.
- Have I got it? - You absolutely have.
OK, thank you.
- Reedah, hi. Do you know my background in this market? - I do.
- OK. - Well, to a degree, yeah.
I just want to explain it.
I've got a quite a huge level of humility,
but I'm explaining it because I think you need to know.
The irony of saying, "I've got a huge level of humility!"
That's quite ironic.
And that's why also I'm putting it out there
because there's no other Dragon
that has the background in this sector than me.
In fact, I was the lead adviser in government about this subject.
- I'm aware of that. - And I created Britain's
first enterprise entrepreneurship qualification,
as well, teaching young people enterprise and education.
The software that we use, that we've developed,
I could class it as a game because they do
go into certain elements of learning.
It's all driven by technology.
But I do this through a charity
and we've struggled to get schools to pay.
We've struggled to get even, would you believe, parents to pay?
And we've ended up paying,
because we think it's important.
Yeah, I mean, that's why I've just got on with it and done it.
I know, and this is why I so admire you,
I really do.
I think you're a leading light in this.
Thank you very much.
But the only way that this can happen
is in an embedment in our national curriculum.
But I can tell you,
I've been doing this since 2009,
and I have been relentless, and I have still not succeeded
in embedding it in the national curriculum.
And I'm talking about enterprise and entrepreneurship, by the way.
And I wouldn't say give up, but I think it's really tough.
- So for that reason, I'm out. - OK, thank you.
So I have a, quite an interesting background in gaming.
In fact, I actually think my business
was built on the success of us launching a game.
And we went on to do another game, which didn't do as well.
To Deborah's point that it is hit and miss, and it's hard to know
because the mechanics of that game were identical.
And as an investment, there's something missing.
And it is that commercialisation.
There's a possibility,
but that is heavily based on fortune and hitting zeitgeist.
There's just too many question marks in my head
for how we, how we get there,
that I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best.
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
So...
- You're good. - Thank you.
And you're doing an important thing.
Which bits of that sound like something
that I wouldn't want to be involved in?
So I'm involved with a business
that sells into 6,000 schools already.
And I know very well the founder of Mumsnet,
- who gives you a great network in terms of reaching out. - Yep.
And I know this would be right up her street.
Why wouldn't it be? You know, she wants to do good things.
So yes, I'm going to offer you all of the money.
I'm going to offer you the £10,000 for the ask.
So for 1% of the business.
Thank you. Thank you, Deborah.
- I'll tell you what I think, Reedah. - OK.
I think you've got something here
because I am absolutely in that space you talk about.
My kids are seven and ten, and I can understand as a parent
why I would be encouraging them to use this.
And actually, I think your chance of success is far greater
if you do have a Dragon onboard.
- Yeah. - Because you do need a lot of help with that commercialisation.
But you've got real vision and purpose,
and I have that shared vision and purpose that you do.
So I'm going to make you an offer
- for the £10,000 you've offered for the 1%. - Wow, thank you so much.
- I'll join you on this journey. - Thank you.
Look, you're very credible.
You've put up 470,000 of your own money.
You've given up a very lucrative job, and I respect you for that.
- Thank you. - You know,
and I think, I'm sure you've had sleepless nights.
- I have. - Look...
..I do admire you, and I respect you a lot, but I can't do it for 1%.
What I can do is talk about giving you
some office space for six months.
You'd be sitting right next to my office.
So on a constant input basis,
bouncing off ideas.
So I would give you the whole 10,000,
- but I want 5%. - OK.
And for that, I think I would give you more time
- than I would normally give to anybody else. - OK.
5%?
So I just really want to thank you all for your feedback.
And I really would love to have all three of the Dragons,
if that's at all possible.
And I wonder, Touker, if there's any way
that you would consider the 1%
rather than the 5% for the £10,000,
because I do feel it's a really fair offer.
It is fair offer.
If I'm going to be a semi-passive investor.
And you've got two great offers here and I'm not saying,
and with all due respect,
they can both deliver, you know, but you won't see them every day.
It's a slight difference. That's what I'm offering.
So I'd really like to accept both offers,
if you would consider both investing 10,000 each
and taking 1% each.
Absolutely.
If Touker would consider doing the same?
Why not?
- Amazing! Amazing! - Well done. - Thank you.
Three Dragons! Brilliant!
A right result for Reedah...
- Well done. - Well done. - Well done.
..who departs with £30,000...
How to slay a Dragon, or three?
..and the backing of a trio of Dragons,
one of whom was convinced into
breaking his number one rule in the Den.
- I couldn't say no. - You couldn't say no.
That's your new slogan.
"I do get out of bed for 1%."
Look, she's broken the curse.
But you know something?
She's put a lot of her own money into this,
and I admire what she's doing.
I'm feeling relieved, and over the moon.
I did not expect this result at all,
but I'm really, really excited
to see how quickly we can scale and grow now.
INDISTINCT CHATTER
- Hi, I'm Rebecca. - Hi, I'm Sophie. We are former flatmates,
university friends and business partners from London.
- Here we go. - OK.
Sophie and I flat-shared for years together.
And with other friends.
And having seen when sometimes it goes wrong,
we wanted to find a better way for people to flat-share.
But Rebecca and Sophie aren't just business partners,
they're also besties.
Oh, my God!
It's actually really, really helpful because it means
that the first step before we might disagree with something
is always kindness and forgiveness,
rather than wanting to jump in.
I feel very, very lucky to do
the one thing I feel most passionate about, with someone I love.
- Hi, I'm Rebecca. - And I'm Sophie.
And together we bring you MatesPlace,
a revolutionary app that's changing the private rental market.
Now, young people today have been termed Generation Rent.
They've been priced out of the property market
and they're living in rented, often shared rented accommodation
for longer than ever before.
But flat-sharing comes with its own set of problems.
There aren't enough properties on the market.
There are fraudulent listings,
and potentially worst of all, there's nightmare flatmates.
A few years ago, I was flat-sharing, like many others do.
I found my flatmate online.
Unfortunately, after a few months of not paying rent,
he disappeared in the night with a load of my belongings.
It turns out he'd lied about where he worked
and changed his contact details.
And with no friends in common, he was untraceable.
So on the realisation that I wanted the safety
and trust that comes from living with friends,
or friends of friends, rather than complete strangers,
MatesPlace was born.
It's an app on which anyone can list their properties
or search for available rooms and through their phone contacts,
it shows them if they have mutual friends
in common with a potential housemate.
And that way, their mates do the vetting for them,
such as, will we get on?
Will they pay the rent on time? Are they trustworthy?
Since we launched the app three years ago,
we've now passed 100,000 downloads.
We have between 700 and 900 rooms live at any given time, and although
most of them are concentrated in London at the moment,
we have presence in 14 major cities in the UK.
Now, the app is free for anyone to download and use,
but in January we launched a paid version
that gives users access to premium features,
and we have big plans for MatesPlace.
So we are looking for £100,000 for 5% of the business,
which will allow us to build-out new features
and rapidly scale-up marketing to reach new customers.
Thank you, and we welcome any questions.
A smartphone app which gives users the peace of mind
that comes from living with mutual acquaintances
is the eureka moment of Rebecca Moule and Sophie Emla.
The pair are seeking £100,000 in return for 5% of their business.
Deborah Meaden is first to explore the proposition in more depth.
Rebecca, Sophie, hi.
Can I... I'm not completely sure I understand your model.
I know what you're doing. I'm just trying to work out
the piece that says that you're actually searching
through people's contacts to find somebody they know.
So can you explain that bit to me? How does that work?
So when you sign up on the app, we ask for your name,
your phone number, email address, and password.
Standard create an account. Then when you go into the app,
it'll ask permission to see your contacts.
So if one of your friends in your phone book
is already a user on the app,
they'll be added as a friend within the app.
And that is termed a first-degree connection.
And then their friends in the app are second-degree connection.
And we go up to third, because we feel that's about
as far as a sort of social network really extends.
And why does that give me security?
So you are able to trace,
so if you look for a room, you can define which level
of connection you're comfortable with.
So, first level would tell you exactly who the friend is.
Second, you can click
and see which friends you have in common.
Third, we don't give exactly the details,
but there's some comfort in knowing they're within your social network.
Rebecca, Sophie, it comes across as a great concept,
but you mentioned at the start that your experience that you had,
which wasn't great, and you didn't know the person.
Is that really atypical, though?
Because I would have thought most people would go to an agency
and the agency will take out employment references,
the agency might do a DBS check.
They'll also give you a reference from the previous landlord.
So you're taking very limited risk by dealing with an agency.
But my phone book could be full of,
you know, not very nice people.
So what's your check specifically
and give me the reason why you're different.
The difference is a lot of people have a lead tenant on a let.
So there's six of you living together.
One of you is listed as lead tenant
and they sign a lot of the paperwork.
But you have people moving in and out of that flat
who the agencies, they might never see,
they don't know about. So actually,
I think the flat-share market is hugely unseen by agents.
Yeah, but what are the checks you're doing, though?
So, what I would be asking through my friends,
- like - do you know this person? - Yeah. - What are they like?
- I think that's a problem. - OK.
I would want to have a check on their reference.
You want to take a reference on them.
You'd want to have an employment check.
That's just not how it works though, is it, in reality.
The reason I know this is because I lived in Manchester for two years,
on the basis of what you just said, just room hopping,
you know, and I actually do think that the strongest point
of reference for me would be knowing someone
that knows you, and being able to have a conversation with them.
So the idea, I get it.
So let's get into these metrics, then.
- Yep. - You said you had 100,000 downloads.
- Yes. - Why are you getting nervous? - Why am I getting... Sorry?
You looked like you were getting nervous.
You said you had 100,000...
This is Sophie's fun bit. She loves the data.
Can you tell me what your key metrics are?
What metrics are you guys obsessing over every week, month?
So, we do track things like,
we know the average usage is around 24 minutes
for the app in a single session.
The early sessions is about four to five minutes.
So that first session is really key to getting someone to interact.
They tend to tail off quite rapidly.
So, 14 or 15 days is about the average.
In terms of cohort retention, if you acquired 100 users today,
12 months from now,
how many of them would still be using the app?
Most likely, we would still have 90%
of their accounts, but actively using very few of them.
- How many roughly do you think? - I think probably 5% to 10%.
But the issue is that a lot
of them would then be maybe a repeat user within the year.
Because then the tenancy comes up within a year,
they go to find something else.
And so with all their details on there,
they're already on the app and have their connection.
It's like a dating app.
Get a good date and then come back later.
Rebecca and Sophie, um, so what do you charge?
Um, so we have... It's a pre...
So, premium tier starts at seven days for 9.99,
14 days for 14.99, and then 28 days for 24.99.
Can I say so, guys, you've got
to be thinking much bigger than this.
- Because what worries me is your business model. - Mm-hm.
Because you're going to go a long way to take a lot of money.
You've got to add a lot more features
to this app to actually be a credible business.
Yeah, but alongside that, we are
looking at various other avenues for revenue.
One is just around...
..maintaining it around the flats.
But also I think we're looking
at exploring recommendations for other services.
We've been approached through our Facebook group about listing
for cleaners and for removal firms. So there's all sorts of businesses
where people would like a personal recommendation.
So say I wanted a plumber, I'm likely to call my friend to say,
"Do you know anyone trustworthy?" Because I don't want to get scammed.
I go online and I look at a review. I don't trust those reviews.
I don't know who was paid to write them.
But if my friend has used that person, I'm more likely...
You're going to charge the plumber
to list themselves on or you won't charge them anything?
So we would likely let them list and then we would look and see...
..probably explore, say, kickbacks for referrals.
Look, I think you've got something,
and yet it's like a jigsaw that's not complete.
And I'm involved in co-living. And I'm on the board of a...
We just launched in Battersea at 1,400 a month,
which is all the amenities.
So could you eventually reverse the business and
have people advertising rooms, where you get a commission?
Could that be another string to your bow?
Yeah, it's something we certainly...
We had an initial conversation with a co-living business who
were interested in exploring that.
Yeah. I mean, co-living is definitely an easy add-on...
- Yeah. - Yeah. - ..you could think about, you know?
When I look at businesses like this,
my big concern is if I put in 100K today,
that 100K basically will be down the hole by the end of the year.
And with technology,
you do need to be well-capitalised. Because when you launch technology,
as you know, you launch it with a hypothesis
and the hypothesis is nearly always wrong.
And you smell your way to the right product-market fit.
And I just think this is still pretty insecure
because you've got some pivoting to do.
And I don't know if we've got the cash and the time.
So I'm going to say that I'm out.
Uh, I think I'm kind of similar.
Um, I think you've... You both are really impressive.
You really are. Um...
But in terms of the business and what you've pitched,
it's going to come back to one thing.
You need money and a lot more money.
So I'm going to have to say that I'm out.
Guys, I'll tell you where I'm at.
It's complicated. It feels high-risk. It feels like
there's lots of different business opportunities going on.
You haven't really convinced me of it,
so I'm going to say I'm out.
Thank you.
So for me, um, there's something not quite that... I've got...
I've described this many times. Row of switches, lots of questions.
You come across really well. Very, very impressive.
And YOU have held me in here longer than
I think I might have been if it was presented by somebody else.
So that's all great. However,
there is the last switch that isn't somehow working for me.
So I wish you all the best, but I'm out.
Hi, guys. I've been on the fence.
And I'm trying to explore in my head. Um...
What you've pitched is not investable.
But at the same time, I don't want to remake your strategy.
And that's the problem in my head,
because I think what you've pitched, you're going to struggle.
However, what you're building as a community is valuable.
And I'm very willing to give you a lifeline to see
whether another part of the business can be attached or not.
However, there's a price.
I'd give you all of the money.
100 grand,
but I want 20%.
Um...
Touker, we came in with some very firm boundaries between us.
- And 20% definitely wasn't in there at all. - Mm-hm.
Um, but we really respect what you've said about us
- and platform for the business and the community. - Mm-hm.
And we're really flattered that you want
to give us a chance to try and make it work.
So we would like to accept your offer.
- Great! - Hey! - Hey!
Success for Rebecca and Sophie...
- Thank you so much. Great. - ..who leave the Den with £100,000...
- Congratulations. - Well done. - Thank you. - Look at that!
- Well done. - Thank you.
..and the backing of a Dragon with the expertise
to help their property app turn big profits.
We're so pleased to have someone with Touker's experience onboard.
Yeah, he seems really invested in us and seems to believe in us.
So it's an amazing opportunity.
- Well done, Touker. I think you've got two great, great... - Yes.
- They're amazing. - ..great entrepreneurs there.
Next time...
I hope they tell me that I was wrong.
I would love to be right
and these guys would never live it down if I am.
- You've remortgaged your houses?! - Yeah. - Yeah.
Flabber is gasted.
- What's the strategy? - Get a Dragon.
There's no doubt that you're here for me.
Surprise, surprise!