1 00:00:02,411 --> 00:00:05,611 # They tried to catch a falling star 2 00:00:06,691 --> 00:00:09,931 # Thinking that she had gone too far... # 3 00:00:11,211 --> 00:00:15,891 Melanie Chisholm came to fame in the 1990s as Sporty Spice - 4 00:00:15,931 --> 00:00:20,091 one-fifth of the biggest-selling girl band of all time. 5 00:00:20,131 --> 00:00:25,931 # I said Who do you think you are? 6 00:00:25,971 --> 00:00:28,211 # Do you think you are? 7 00:00:28,251 --> 00:00:29,651 # I said... # 8 00:00:29,691 --> 00:00:32,051 I don't think anybody could have predicted 9 00:00:32,091 --> 00:00:34,131 what happened with the Spice Girls. 10 00:00:34,171 --> 00:00:36,131 We were so ambitious and so driven, 11 00:00:36,171 --> 00:00:38,171 and we knew what we wanted to achieve. 12 00:00:38,211 --> 00:00:41,051 # Move it, make it, who do you think you are? # 13 00:00:41,091 --> 00:00:44,091 But I will never forget who I am and where I'm from. 14 00:00:45,131 --> 00:00:47,171 The group became pop culture icons 15 00:00:47,211 --> 00:00:50,211 and, today, Melanie has a huge following 16 00:00:50,251 --> 00:00:53,051 as an award-winning solo performer. 17 00:00:53,091 --> 00:00:55,891 I've always been a really determined person. 18 00:00:55,931 --> 00:01:00,291 I've always been very disciplined, from a kid, 19 00:01:00,331 --> 00:01:03,891 and I loved performing from such a young age. 20 00:01:03,931 --> 00:01:05,331 I grew up in Widnes, 21 00:01:05,371 --> 00:01:07,891 which is just outside Liverpool. 22 00:01:07,931 --> 00:01:11,371 I would say I have a really working-class background. 23 00:01:11,411 --> 00:01:15,051 My immediate family that I know and my grandparents, 24 00:01:15,091 --> 00:01:17,011 everyone's a grafter. 25 00:01:17,051 --> 00:01:20,691 I have a great relationship with both my mum and dad. 26 00:01:20,731 --> 00:01:24,131 They divorced when I was very young and went on to remarry, 27 00:01:24,171 --> 00:01:27,411 so I have half-siblings and step-siblings, 28 00:01:27,451 --> 00:01:32,171 and so I just had this really full, complicated family life. 29 00:01:32,211 --> 00:01:34,731 Melanie's parents still live in the North. 30 00:01:34,771 --> 00:01:37,651 She now lives in London with her teenage daughter 31 00:01:37,691 --> 00:01:39,371 and her dog Dolce. 32 00:01:42,051 --> 00:01:43,411 I left home at 16, 33 00:01:43,451 --> 00:01:45,131 which blows my mind. 34 00:01:45,171 --> 00:01:48,891 I was going to performing arts college just outside London. 35 00:01:48,931 --> 00:01:51,651 I knew what I wanted to do, so there was no option. 36 00:01:51,691 --> 00:01:53,451 I had to go and get on with it. 37 00:01:54,691 --> 00:01:58,691 As I've got older, I've become more curious about what came before me. 38 00:01:58,731 --> 00:02:01,891 You know, why I am this person, how did I end up like this? 39 00:02:01,931 --> 00:02:06,931 And just wondering if any of that is from the past and my relatives. 40 00:02:06,971 --> 00:02:12,131 I know virtually nothing beyond my grandparents. 41 00:02:12,171 --> 00:02:14,491 I do know there is an Irish connection, 42 00:02:14,531 --> 00:02:19,051 so I'm really intrigued to see where that began. 43 00:02:20,131 --> 00:02:23,411 I've always seen myself as a Scouser. 44 00:02:23,451 --> 00:02:27,491 I think there are some rules to how Scouse you actually are. 45 00:02:27,531 --> 00:02:31,611 Real hardcore Scousers wouldn't class me as a Scouser. 46 00:02:31,651 --> 00:02:34,411 You know, maybe we'll figure out that I am a bit more Scouse 47 00:02:34,451 --> 00:02:36,091 than everybody thinks. 48 00:02:37,171 --> 00:02:40,771 So I'm excited about what we're going to discover. 49 00:03:16,171 --> 00:03:19,131 Melanie is starting with her dad's side of the family, 50 00:03:19,171 --> 00:03:22,211 so has invited her younger half-sister, Emma, 'round 51 00:03:22,251 --> 00:03:24,891 to help her go through the family archive. 52 00:03:24,931 --> 00:03:27,251 How are you? Good. Come on in. 53 00:03:27,291 --> 00:03:29,131 Here's Dolce. 54 00:03:29,171 --> 00:03:32,251 Although they didn't grow up together, they've become close. 55 00:03:33,731 --> 00:03:35,691 Oh! That's little me. 56 00:03:35,731 --> 00:03:39,091 Look at you. Yeah. So that's Kendal Drive. 57 00:03:39,131 --> 00:03:40,691 I wonder how old I am there. 58 00:03:40,731 --> 00:03:42,411 I reckon I must be about two. 59 00:03:42,451 --> 00:03:45,211 Yeah, super young, cos that's where I lived 60 00:03:45,251 --> 00:03:49,411 with my mum and our dad... Mm-hm. ..Joan and Alan. Yeah. 61 00:03:49,451 --> 00:03:52,771 Do you remember them being together? Not at all. No. 62 00:03:52,811 --> 00:03:56,411 I find it quite strange looking at pictures of Mum and Dad. Yeah. 63 00:03:56,451 --> 00:03:59,171 I just have no memory of... Yeah. ..you know, 64 00:03:59,211 --> 00:04:02,211 being with them both at the same time. No. 65 00:04:02,251 --> 00:04:03,811 Oh, look. 66 00:04:03,851 --> 00:04:05,651 Your lovely wedding day. 67 00:04:05,691 --> 00:04:07,971 I love this picture. This was an amazing day. 68 00:04:08,011 --> 00:04:09,971 I just think that cheesy smile of mine... 69 00:04:10,011 --> 00:04:12,411 I just remember being really happy in that picture. 70 00:04:12,451 --> 00:04:14,131 It was perfect. It was great. 71 00:04:14,171 --> 00:04:16,251 And we blinked and now we've got teenagers. 72 00:04:16,291 --> 00:04:19,531 Now, this is another wedding. Yeah. Obviously... Very different. 73 00:04:19,571 --> 00:04:22,651 ..a long, long time before. So this is nanny Kay. Yeah. 74 00:04:22,691 --> 00:04:24,011 Dad's mum. 75 00:04:24,051 --> 00:04:25,931 And I'm assuming that's Grandad... 76 00:04:25,971 --> 00:04:27,771 Mm. ..because we didn't know him. 77 00:04:27,811 --> 00:04:29,731 It's just so fascinating, isn't it, 78 00:04:29,771 --> 00:04:32,411 when you look how different it was then? I know. 79 00:04:32,451 --> 00:04:34,691 They look happy though, don't they? Yeah. 80 00:04:34,731 --> 00:04:37,891 Ah. So, I remember this photo, actually. 81 00:04:37,931 --> 00:04:41,411 I'm quite young there, aren't I? As a baby. Bit of a newborn. Yeah. 82 00:04:41,451 --> 00:04:43,491 So that must have been in 1974. 83 00:04:43,531 --> 00:04:45,011 And, looking at Nanny there... 84 00:04:46,451 --> 00:04:48,731 ..she didn't really change. 85 00:04:48,771 --> 00:04:51,851 Obviously, I came in later on in life. Yeah. 86 00:04:51,891 --> 00:04:55,891 But I just remember this amazing, like, strong, 87 00:04:55,931 --> 00:04:59,131 like, matriarch, that everybody looked up to. Absolutely. 88 00:04:59,171 --> 00:05:01,571 And she always looked, like, incredible. 89 00:05:01,611 --> 00:05:03,651 I was petrified of her. EMMA LAUGHS 90 00:05:03,691 --> 00:05:07,131 I was. Because, you know... I know she loved us all to bits... Yeah. 91 00:05:07,171 --> 00:05:09,891 ..but you just knew not to mess with her. Yeah. 92 00:05:09,931 --> 00:05:12,051 And it would be really interesting to find out 93 00:05:12,091 --> 00:05:13,771 why she was like that. Yeah. 94 00:05:13,811 --> 00:05:16,371 Now, there's a picture in here. 95 00:05:16,411 --> 00:05:18,811 This has been sent to Dad from his cousin. 96 00:05:19,891 --> 00:05:23,011 So... Ooh. OK. 97 00:05:23,051 --> 00:05:25,651 So, who could this be? 98 00:05:25,691 --> 00:05:27,731 Definitely a family resemblance. Yeah. 99 00:05:27,771 --> 00:05:29,731 Let's have a look. 100 00:05:29,771 --> 00:05:32,411 "Mary Bilsborough, married to Thomas Bilsborough. 101 00:05:32,451 --> 00:05:35,331 "Mother of Kay. 1942." 102 00:05:36,491 --> 00:05:38,411 Yeah, you can definitely see Nanny Kay. 103 00:05:38,451 --> 00:05:40,731 She looked like her mum, didn't she? Yeah. 104 00:05:40,771 --> 00:05:44,211 So this is our great-grandmother. 105 00:05:44,251 --> 00:05:48,651 Mary Bilsborough. Married to Thomas, our great-grandad. 106 00:05:48,691 --> 00:05:51,131 You see, I... There's another name, 107 00:05:51,171 --> 00:05:54,411 and I don't know where I've got this name from. O'Flaherty. 108 00:05:54,451 --> 00:05:58,851 And I wonder whether that was her maiden name. 109 00:05:58,891 --> 00:06:00,251 Maybe. 110 00:06:00,291 --> 00:06:02,891 She looks like a strong woman, too, though, doesn't she? She does. 111 00:06:02,931 --> 00:06:04,971 Another one you wouldn't mess with. 112 00:06:05,011 --> 00:06:06,451 Mm. Why did we get so soft? 113 00:06:06,491 --> 00:06:07,811 We need to toughen up. 114 00:06:07,851 --> 00:06:09,891 Maybe it does filter down eventually. 115 00:06:09,931 --> 00:06:11,291 Maybe we're going to be solid. 116 00:06:11,331 --> 00:06:12,931 Mary Bilsborough. 117 00:06:12,971 --> 00:06:15,691 Oh, I can't wait to find out about her. Yeah. 118 00:06:15,731 --> 00:06:19,731 Melanie was close to her grandmother, Catherine Chisholm, 119 00:06:19,771 --> 00:06:21,891 who she called "Nanny Kay". 120 00:06:21,931 --> 00:06:24,491 She now knows that Nanny Kay's mother, 121 00:06:24,531 --> 00:06:27,651 Melanie's great-grandmother, was Mary, 122 00:06:27,691 --> 00:06:31,091 and that her great-grandfather was Thomas Bilsborough. 123 00:06:36,811 --> 00:06:39,091 Yeah, it's quite iconic, isn't it? The old Runcorn Bridge. 124 00:06:40,571 --> 00:06:43,771 To find out more about her formidable-looking grandmother, 125 00:06:43,811 --> 00:06:45,331 Mary Bilsborough, 126 00:06:45,371 --> 00:06:46,891 Melanie is heading to Liverpool, 127 00:06:46,931 --> 00:06:49,171 where her family are from. 128 00:06:49,211 --> 00:06:54,451 I've always been really proud of having heritage from Liverpool. 129 00:06:54,491 --> 00:06:57,891 People from Liverpool are very proud, 130 00:06:57,931 --> 00:07:00,691 very funny and very warm. 131 00:07:00,731 --> 00:07:03,411 TANNOY:Ladies and gentlemen, we will shortly be arriving 132 00:07:03,451 --> 00:07:05,771 at Liverpool Lime Street - next and final stop. 133 00:07:08,451 --> 00:07:10,451 Every time I come into Liverpool 134 00:07:10,491 --> 00:07:12,411 and I see that iconic skyline, 135 00:07:12,451 --> 00:07:15,371 the Liver Building, I get butterflies in my tummy. 136 00:07:16,451 --> 00:07:19,051 All of my history I know is in Liverpool. 137 00:07:19,091 --> 00:07:21,611 I wonder how far back that goes. 138 00:07:22,691 --> 00:07:25,731 I'm really excited to find out about Mary Bilsborough, 139 00:07:25,771 --> 00:07:27,531 my great-grandmother. 140 00:07:28,931 --> 00:07:33,651 Melanie's meeting historian Rebecca Probert at the Museum of Liverpool. 141 00:07:33,691 --> 00:07:36,571 Nice to meet you. Lovely to meet you. I'm Melanie. Rebecca. 142 00:07:36,611 --> 00:07:38,851 Nice to meet you, Rebecca. And you. 143 00:07:38,891 --> 00:07:40,811 Would you like to come inside? I would love to. 144 00:07:43,171 --> 00:07:45,571 This is my great-grandmother, 145 00:07:45,611 --> 00:07:47,131 Mary Bilsborough. 146 00:07:47,171 --> 00:07:49,051 That's her married name. Mm-hm. 147 00:07:49,091 --> 00:07:51,731 My great-grandfather is Thomas. 148 00:07:51,771 --> 00:07:55,411 And I know very little about this lady. 149 00:07:55,451 --> 00:07:57,491 And I'd like to find out some more. 150 00:07:57,531 --> 00:08:00,891 So, we have the 1911 census, 151 00:08:00,931 --> 00:08:03,131 if you'd like to take a look at that. 152 00:08:03,171 --> 00:08:06,651 Oh, you see, this is a name I recognise - "Flaherty". 153 00:08:06,691 --> 00:08:09,291 Well, I know it as O'Flaherty, 154 00:08:09,331 --> 00:08:10,811 but maybe it's just Flaherty. 155 00:08:10,851 --> 00:08:12,171 Yes. 156 00:08:12,211 --> 00:08:13,571 We do have a Mary. 157 00:08:13,611 --> 00:08:15,411 OK. 158 00:08:15,451 --> 00:08:18,451 So Mary, is that my great-grandmother? Yes. 159 00:08:18,491 --> 00:08:20,531 But, "Nunnery"? 160 00:08:22,171 --> 00:08:25,691 She's married. We know she's married, yes. OK. 161 00:08:25,731 --> 00:08:28,251 I'm a little bit baffled... 162 00:08:28,291 --> 00:08:30,891 ..because I know her as Bilsborough. 163 00:08:30,931 --> 00:08:32,411 Curious. 164 00:08:32,451 --> 00:08:36,411 So, Patrick, head of the household. Yeah. 165 00:08:36,451 --> 00:08:38,051 I need to work out who Patrick is. 166 00:08:38,091 --> 00:08:40,091 He's my... Great-great-grandfather. 167 00:08:40,131 --> 00:08:41,931 He's Mary's dad. Yeah. 168 00:08:41,971 --> 00:08:44,731 So we've got six people but we've got three rooms. 169 00:08:44,771 --> 00:08:47,411 So we can see from here, "10 Court". 170 00:08:47,451 --> 00:08:50,131 This is what's known as court housing... OK. 171 00:08:50,171 --> 00:08:52,891 ..and it's very poor quality housing. 172 00:08:52,931 --> 00:08:55,971 You know, there would be a shared outside toilet, 173 00:08:56,011 --> 00:08:59,411 there would be a single tap, there'd be no hot water. 174 00:08:59,451 --> 00:09:02,691 And I don't know if you've heard of Scotland Road...? 175 00:09:02,731 --> 00:09:04,291 Scottie Road. Scottie Road. 176 00:09:04,331 --> 00:09:06,651 It's quite a famous road in Liverpool. Yes. 177 00:09:06,691 --> 00:09:09,531 So, this was an area where there was a lot of this housing? Yes. 178 00:09:09,571 --> 00:09:13,651 And you can see, if you look at the jobs that they're doing... 179 00:09:13,691 --> 00:09:17,171 So, Patrick is a dock labourer. Yeah. 180 00:09:17,211 --> 00:09:19,291 And then the daughters. 181 00:09:19,331 --> 00:09:21,091 So, Margaret is a fish... 182 00:09:21,131 --> 00:09:22,411 What's that word? 183 00:09:22,451 --> 00:09:25,251 Hawker. "Hawker"? What's a fish hawker. 184 00:09:25,291 --> 00:09:27,211 Basically, they sell fish. 185 00:09:27,251 --> 00:09:29,851 They hawk fish 'round the streets. Oh, wow. 186 00:09:29,891 --> 00:09:31,731 And so, is this the same? Yeah. 187 00:09:31,771 --> 00:09:33,611 Ditto. So they all do the same. 188 00:09:33,651 --> 00:09:36,371 So Mary, my great-grandmother, 189 00:09:36,411 --> 00:09:38,851 was also a fish hawker. Yeah. 190 00:09:38,891 --> 00:09:40,891 I'm so confused 191 00:09:40,931 --> 00:09:44,131 because, obviously, I have the picture of my great-grandmother 192 00:09:44,171 --> 00:09:46,451 being Mary Bilsborough. 193 00:09:47,531 --> 00:09:50,171 So, to have been married before 194 00:09:50,211 --> 00:09:52,491 to a Nunnery, a Mr Nunnery, 195 00:09:52,531 --> 00:09:54,411 I need to know more about that. 196 00:09:54,451 --> 00:09:58,251 Well, this might help to explain more about Mr Nunnery. 197 00:09:59,291 --> 00:10:02,091 This is the marriage certificate, yeah? It is, yes. 198 00:10:02,131 --> 00:10:04,891 So, Mary and Joseph Nunnery. 199 00:10:04,931 --> 00:10:06,851 He's 20. Mm-hm. 200 00:10:06,891 --> 00:10:09,411 And this is in 1908. Yes. 201 00:10:09,451 --> 00:10:13,691 Now, this census is 1911, a few years later, 202 00:10:13,731 --> 00:10:16,291 and she's living with her dad. Yeah. 203 00:10:16,331 --> 00:10:20,811 And there's no Mr Nunnery on the scene, it would seem. 204 00:10:25,451 --> 00:10:26,731 OK. 205 00:10:27,851 --> 00:10:29,611 I've spotted a Nunnery. Yes. 206 00:10:29,651 --> 00:10:31,251 So, that's Joseph. 207 00:10:31,291 --> 00:10:34,291 So, Regiment, Kings. 208 00:10:34,331 --> 00:10:37,451 Is that Army? Yes. Right. 209 00:10:37,491 --> 00:10:38,931 GASPS 210 00:10:38,971 --> 00:10:41,731 "Date of trial"?! Yes. 211 00:10:41,771 --> 00:10:45,051 So, this is a Court Martial document, 212 00:10:45,091 --> 00:10:47,611 also 1908. 213 00:10:47,651 --> 00:10:50,451 So, this is the same year that they got married. Yes. 214 00:10:50,491 --> 00:10:52,971 I don't know if you can read that there. It's quite small. 215 00:10:53,011 --> 00:10:55,811 Ah. Is it... How do you say that word? Desertion. 216 00:10:55,851 --> 00:10:58,571 So this is a few weeks after they get married 217 00:10:58,611 --> 00:11:00,091 that he's facing... Oh. 218 00:11:00,131 --> 00:11:02,811 ..a Court Martial for desertion. 219 00:11:02,851 --> 00:11:05,451 84 days' imprisonment. 220 00:11:05,491 --> 00:11:07,091 Yeah. 221 00:11:07,131 --> 00:11:10,731 My great-grandmother Mary's first husband... Yes. 222 00:11:10,771 --> 00:11:15,251 ..Joseph Nunnery, deserted the Army to marry his beloved. 223 00:11:15,291 --> 00:11:17,691 That's certainly one possibility. Right. 224 00:11:17,731 --> 00:11:20,051 Well, that's quite romantic, isn't it? 225 00:11:20,091 --> 00:11:22,131 But in 1911... 226 00:11:23,411 --> 00:11:25,571 ..on the census, he's not there. He's not living with them. 227 00:11:25,611 --> 00:11:29,411 Where's he gone? So, Joseph is now in Karachi with his regiment. 228 00:11:29,451 --> 00:11:31,411 "The Army and Navy Gazette. 229 00:11:31,451 --> 00:11:33,891 "The Second Battalion has arrived in Karachi." 230 00:11:33,931 --> 00:11:36,131 So, whereabouts in the world is this Karachi? 231 00:11:36,171 --> 00:11:38,651 So, at the time, it was in India. OK. 232 00:11:38,691 --> 00:11:41,451 It's in modern-day Pakistan. Right. 233 00:11:41,491 --> 00:11:44,411 1908, he was imprisoned for desertion... Yeah. 234 00:11:44,451 --> 00:11:46,971 ..but by 1909, 235 00:11:47,011 --> 00:11:50,131 he's now back in the Forces... Mm-hm. 236 00:11:50,171 --> 00:11:52,571 ..in Karachi. Yeah. 237 00:11:52,611 --> 00:11:55,891 So, Mary and Joseph haven't really had much opportunity 238 00:11:55,931 --> 00:11:59,651 to have a married life together. They haven't. 239 00:11:59,691 --> 00:12:02,531 And I should imagine that Mary had... 240 00:12:02,571 --> 00:12:06,851 She's so young, she's 23, and... 241 00:12:06,891 --> 00:12:10,731 ..falling in love with somebody that spent some time imprisoned 242 00:12:10,771 --> 00:12:12,651 because of desertion, 243 00:12:12,691 --> 00:12:14,611 and then he's off again 244 00:12:14,651 --> 00:12:17,811 and, you know, Mary, at this point, I'm assuming, has no children, 245 00:12:17,851 --> 00:12:20,491 hasn't had the opportunity... She hasn't had the chance! 246 00:12:20,531 --> 00:12:23,011 ..to have any children. So, what happens next? 247 00:12:23,051 --> 00:12:25,811 This might give you a clue. 248 00:12:25,851 --> 00:12:28,971 Is this a birth certificate? It is. Right. Yes. 249 00:12:29,011 --> 00:12:30,931 So... 250 00:12:30,971 --> 00:12:32,531 ..1914... 251 00:12:32,571 --> 00:12:34,571 Oh, I've spotted a Bilsborough. 252 00:12:34,611 --> 00:12:37,651 Yes. Susannah, is that? Susannah, yeah. 253 00:12:37,691 --> 00:12:39,731 So, Mary has had a little girl. 254 00:12:39,771 --> 00:12:43,411 Her name does have the name of my great-grandfather, Bilsborough, 255 00:12:43,451 --> 00:12:45,851 but not Nunnery. 256 00:12:45,891 --> 00:12:47,691 There's a gap. 257 00:12:47,731 --> 00:12:49,891 There's no name of the father. 258 00:12:49,931 --> 00:12:53,811 Thomas Bilsborough isn't on the birth certificate 259 00:12:53,851 --> 00:12:57,091 and my great-grandmother is still Mary Nunnery. 260 00:12:59,931 --> 00:13:01,291 Now we're in 1915, 261 00:13:01,331 --> 00:13:03,331 another girl comes along, 262 00:13:03,371 --> 00:13:06,291 Mary, another Bilsborough... Mm-hm. 263 00:13:06,331 --> 00:13:09,531 But, again... But, again, no father is mentioned. 264 00:13:11,491 --> 00:13:13,891 1917, we have a boy. 265 00:13:13,931 --> 00:13:15,491 He's John... 266 00:13:15,531 --> 00:13:17,651 ..and no father again. 267 00:13:17,691 --> 00:13:20,651 She's having children with my great-grandfather, 268 00:13:20,691 --> 00:13:22,291 Thomas Bilsborough, 269 00:13:22,331 --> 00:13:24,691 and she's married to Mr Nunnery. 270 00:13:25,691 --> 00:13:27,251 This is wild. 271 00:13:27,291 --> 00:13:28,731 Yeah. I mean, it's rare. 272 00:13:28,771 --> 00:13:30,651 You've got about 4% of children 273 00:13:30,691 --> 00:13:33,411 born outside marriage at this time. Really?! 274 00:13:33,451 --> 00:13:38,131 We have this interesting little marginal note added on here. 275 00:13:38,171 --> 00:13:41,371 "Parents now married." Yeah. Right. 276 00:13:41,411 --> 00:13:43,891 Mary and Thomas are now married 277 00:13:43,931 --> 00:13:48,411 after having three children together outside marriage. 278 00:13:48,451 --> 00:13:52,971 So, would she have been divorced, then, from her first husband? 279 00:13:53,011 --> 00:13:56,491 Divorce was really difficult at this stage. Goodness me. 280 00:13:56,531 --> 00:13:59,131 Let me show you the next document and put your... 281 00:13:59,171 --> 00:14:01,851 ..put your mind at rest... This is amazing. 282 00:14:01,891 --> 00:14:03,891 ..about the status of their marriage. 283 00:14:03,931 --> 00:14:06,411 Ah, this is burials. 284 00:14:06,451 --> 00:14:08,211 So... 285 00:14:08,251 --> 00:14:10,491 Joseph Nunnery. Yes. 286 00:14:10,531 --> 00:14:12,211 So, he's passed. Yeah. 287 00:14:12,251 --> 00:14:15,251 And this is in 1918. Yeah. Ah, so is he... 288 00:14:15,291 --> 00:14:18,131 Has he died in combat? Erm... 289 00:14:18,171 --> 00:14:20,611 No. Pneumonia. Pneumonia. 290 00:14:21,691 --> 00:14:22,851 Wow. 291 00:14:24,171 --> 00:14:28,891 And we know from the marginal note that the marriage to Thomas, 292 00:14:28,931 --> 00:14:30,891 your great-grandfather, 293 00:14:30,931 --> 00:14:33,451 took place after Joseph had died. 294 00:14:33,491 --> 00:14:37,931 So she only married him when she could do so legally. Right. 295 00:14:37,971 --> 00:14:41,731 I can't help feeling, like, really sorry for Mary 296 00:14:41,771 --> 00:14:45,131 because, I don't know, like, with her first marriage, 297 00:14:45,171 --> 00:14:46,891 maybe it was... 298 00:14:46,931 --> 00:14:50,411 Just, obviously, it wasn't what she expected it to be. 299 00:14:50,451 --> 00:14:54,291 And then she met my great-grandfather, Thomas, 300 00:14:54,331 --> 00:14:56,891 who loves her, and they've had three children, 301 00:14:56,931 --> 00:14:58,691 and now they're married. Yes. 302 00:14:58,731 --> 00:15:00,891 So, then we can learn a little bit 303 00:15:00,931 --> 00:15:03,251 about Mary and Thomas' 304 00:15:03,291 --> 00:15:06,051 subsequent life together 305 00:15:06,091 --> 00:15:08,771 because they go on to have more children. 306 00:15:08,811 --> 00:15:11,211 There is nine altogether. "Nine"?! 307 00:15:13,451 --> 00:15:15,411 Wow. That is a lot. 308 00:15:15,451 --> 00:15:20,171 So all of the children are my great-grandfather's? Yes. 309 00:15:20,211 --> 00:15:23,291 She was kind of just always pregnant. She would have been, yes. 310 00:15:23,331 --> 00:15:25,011 Can you imagine? Nine children. 311 00:15:25,051 --> 00:15:26,451 That puts me to shame. 312 00:15:26,491 --> 00:15:27,891 I can only handle one. 313 00:15:27,931 --> 00:15:29,451 Goodness me. 314 00:15:29,491 --> 00:15:32,411 And I should imagine, unless something extraordinary 315 00:15:32,451 --> 00:15:36,091 has happened, it's still pretty difficult living conditions. 316 00:15:37,171 --> 00:15:40,411 So we can pick your great-grandmother up 317 00:15:40,451 --> 00:15:43,251 in the 1939 register. 318 00:15:43,291 --> 00:15:45,411 So there's my great-granny, Mary. 319 00:15:45,451 --> 00:15:48,371 And this is my nan. Yes. 320 00:15:48,411 --> 00:15:50,211 This is Nanny Kay. 321 00:15:50,251 --> 00:15:52,691 Catherine Chisholm, that's her married name. Mm-hm. 322 00:15:52,731 --> 00:15:55,131 We've got Bilsborough crossed out. 323 00:15:55,171 --> 00:15:58,411 So she wouldn't have been Chisholm at that point, but it gets... 324 00:15:58,451 --> 00:16:01,651 It goes later on? OK. She would only have been 16. 325 00:16:01,691 --> 00:16:04,371 So, she's there with her mum, who's Mary. 326 00:16:04,411 --> 00:16:06,891 But if we look at the jobs that they're doing. 327 00:16:06,931 --> 00:16:09,411 So your grandmother is a... 328 00:16:09,451 --> 00:16:12,811 Does that say, "Cloth sorter"? ..cloth sorter, yeah. OK. 329 00:16:12,851 --> 00:16:16,891 And Mary, your great-grandmother... 330 00:16:16,931 --> 00:16:18,691 Is a moneylender. 331 00:16:19,931 --> 00:16:21,691 A moneylender? 332 00:16:23,691 --> 00:16:25,291 That's a little bit confusing, 333 00:16:25,331 --> 00:16:28,411 because I'm imagining that there isn't much money about, 334 00:16:28,451 --> 00:16:31,091 so if you don't have a lot of money, how do you lend it to people? 335 00:16:32,731 --> 00:16:34,731 That's a very good question. 336 00:16:38,931 --> 00:16:41,131 My great-grandmother, Mary, 337 00:16:41,171 --> 00:16:43,171 is listed as being a moneylender... 338 00:16:44,691 --> 00:16:46,411 ..and I really don't know what that means. 339 00:16:46,451 --> 00:16:50,491 I think, in today's terms, I imagine some big, burly guy 340 00:16:50,531 --> 00:16:53,411 turning up at your door, you know, battering your door down 341 00:16:53,451 --> 00:16:55,891 to get the money back... 342 00:16:55,931 --> 00:16:57,891 ..and that was what my great-grandmother was doing, 343 00:16:57,931 --> 00:17:01,491 so I need to find out how that worked in those days. 344 00:17:05,451 --> 00:17:08,411 Melanie is meeting local historian Pat Ayres 345 00:17:08,451 --> 00:17:10,611 at Liverpool's Central Library. 346 00:17:10,651 --> 00:17:12,771 Hiya. Hiya. I'm Melanie. I'm Pat. 347 00:17:12,811 --> 00:17:15,371 Nice to meet you. Come with me. I will. 348 00:17:22,451 --> 00:17:24,171 Lovely. Thank you. 349 00:17:26,091 --> 00:17:29,651 I've been finding out all about my great-grandmother, Mary. 350 00:17:29,691 --> 00:17:33,131 In 1939, I know she's a moneylender. 351 00:17:33,171 --> 00:17:37,051 She's living with my nan, Catherine, who's a cloth sorter. 352 00:17:37,091 --> 00:17:42,131 Have you any idea what a cloth sorter actually did? I have no idea. 353 00:17:42,171 --> 00:17:45,011 It was the worst of the worst jobs in Liverpool. 354 00:17:45,051 --> 00:17:46,211 No way. Yeah. Why? 355 00:17:46,251 --> 00:17:48,211 It was entirely women's work. 356 00:17:48,251 --> 00:17:50,891 They would be presented with these hundredweight bales, 357 00:17:50,931 --> 00:17:53,131 they'd sit on the floor to sort it, 358 00:17:53,171 --> 00:17:54,771 and it was filthy dirty. 359 00:17:54,811 --> 00:17:58,411 The atmosphere that they worked in was appalling. 360 00:17:58,451 --> 00:18:00,891 It was hot, it was damp, 361 00:18:00,931 --> 00:18:03,251 it was foul-smelling. 362 00:18:03,291 --> 00:18:06,131 If I remember correctly, after looking at the documents, 363 00:18:06,171 --> 00:18:09,411 I think she was 16 when she was doing this job, 364 00:18:09,451 --> 00:18:11,971 so she was just a child, really. Yeah, yeah. 365 00:18:12,011 --> 00:18:14,691 As my nan got older, 366 00:18:14,731 --> 00:18:16,891 she had some issues with her lungs 367 00:18:16,931 --> 00:18:19,691 and I wonder if that stems back to those days. Absolutely. 368 00:18:19,731 --> 00:18:22,291 I mean, so many of those women suffered poor health 369 00:18:22,331 --> 00:18:23,691 while they were doing it. 370 00:18:23,731 --> 00:18:25,291 It's filthy work. 371 00:18:25,331 --> 00:18:26,891 It's really, really low paid. 372 00:18:26,931 --> 00:18:31,771 The whole family is living in exceptionally poor circumstances. 373 00:18:31,811 --> 00:18:35,731 Gosh. You know, they had to be for her to be engaged in that work. 374 00:18:35,771 --> 00:18:38,411 This is what confuses me about my great-grandmother 375 00:18:38,451 --> 00:18:39,971 being a moneylender. 376 00:18:40,011 --> 00:18:42,491 If you're lending money, you must have it to lend, 377 00:18:42,531 --> 00:18:44,331 so she's working for somebody else, 378 00:18:44,371 --> 00:18:46,411 I'm assuming. 379 00:18:46,451 --> 00:18:48,611 No, no, no, she'll have been working for herself. OK. 380 00:18:50,131 --> 00:18:53,211 It wasn't that hard to set up as a moneylender 381 00:18:53,251 --> 00:18:56,091 if you could set aside some margin 382 00:18:56,131 --> 00:18:58,691 over your subsistence needs. 383 00:18:58,731 --> 00:19:00,491 So if they were independent-minded, 384 00:19:00,531 --> 00:19:03,331 women would try to do something on their own account. 385 00:19:03,371 --> 00:19:06,411 It's interesting, you know, just thinking about... 386 00:19:06,451 --> 00:19:08,451 ..some of my own traits. 387 00:19:08,491 --> 00:19:12,411 Like, why am I so determined or so driven, so independent? Yeah. 388 00:19:12,451 --> 00:19:13,491 And it's, like... 389 00:19:13,531 --> 00:19:16,571 It sounds like I come from a long line of these women. 390 00:19:16,611 --> 00:19:18,451 Of feisty women. Really? Yeah. 391 00:19:18,491 --> 00:19:21,491 If you were engaged in the business that your great-grandmother 392 00:19:21,531 --> 00:19:25,731 was engaged in, then you had to be really savvy, on top of things. 393 00:19:25,771 --> 00:19:29,131 I mean, she's probably a matriarch of the first order. 394 00:19:29,171 --> 00:19:30,651 I can imagine. Yeah. Formidable. 395 00:19:30,691 --> 00:19:32,011 But my nan was like that, too. 396 00:19:32,051 --> 00:19:34,011 Yeah? Yeah, absolutely formidable. 397 00:19:34,051 --> 00:19:36,091 And... 398 00:19:36,131 --> 00:19:38,651 ..the interest that was charged on the loans 399 00:19:38,691 --> 00:19:41,651 that moneylenders made out was actually quite high. 400 00:19:41,691 --> 00:19:43,891 It was something like 400%. 401 00:19:43,931 --> 00:19:45,611 That seems a lot. 402 00:19:45,651 --> 00:19:48,131 So although they're only lending small sums out, 403 00:19:48,171 --> 00:19:50,891 quite quickly, it could become a profitable business. 404 00:19:50,931 --> 00:19:53,171 Provided everybody paid you back. But... 405 00:19:53,211 --> 00:19:54,971 But then I just wonder, you know, 406 00:19:55,011 --> 00:19:57,411 what lengths would she have had to have gone to 407 00:19:57,451 --> 00:19:59,251 sometimes to get that money back? 408 00:19:59,291 --> 00:20:02,651 There's a document here that might be really helpful... OK. 409 00:20:02,691 --> 00:20:04,411 ..in giving you an insight. 410 00:20:04,451 --> 00:20:06,131 "Moneylenders Bill." 411 00:20:06,171 --> 00:20:08,291 There's a debate in Parliament going on 412 00:20:08,331 --> 00:20:11,251 around the issue of moneylending in Liverpool. OK. 413 00:20:11,291 --> 00:20:12,931 "Three years ago, 414 00:20:12,971 --> 00:20:15,411 "a report found that, in 1924, 415 00:20:15,451 --> 00:20:20,451 "there were 1,380 registered moneylenders in that area, 416 00:20:20,491 --> 00:20:24,411 "of whom over 1,100 were women." 417 00:20:24,451 --> 00:20:26,011 Yeah. OK. 418 00:20:26,051 --> 00:20:28,771 I'm getting a real picture of what this is now, 419 00:20:28,811 --> 00:20:31,651 because none of these people are wealthy... No. 420 00:20:31,691 --> 00:20:33,371 ..by any stretch of the imagination. 421 00:20:33,411 --> 00:20:35,051 Everyone's living hand-to-mouth, 422 00:20:35,091 --> 00:20:38,611 but there are certain people in the community, they've worked, 423 00:20:38,651 --> 00:20:40,411 they've put a little bit aside, 424 00:20:40,451 --> 00:20:43,851 and they're able to, you know, have this as a business. 425 00:20:43,891 --> 00:20:45,731 Yeah. So why, then... 426 00:20:45,771 --> 00:20:48,131 I mean, we'll read a little bit more, 427 00:20:48,171 --> 00:20:50,171 but for this to become an issue 428 00:20:50,211 --> 00:20:52,691 that's being debated in Parliament 429 00:20:52,731 --> 00:20:55,651 suggests that there are some concerns about it. 430 00:20:55,691 --> 00:21:00,571 OK, so, "All the women cater for the borrowers of small sums, 431 00:21:00,611 --> 00:21:04,131 "often charging exorbitant rates of interest, 432 00:21:04,171 --> 00:21:08,131 "and many of them act as terrible bullies to their clients." 433 00:21:09,291 --> 00:21:10,611 Oh. 434 00:21:12,451 --> 00:21:15,051 I don't want to think of my great-grandma as a bully. 435 00:21:15,091 --> 00:21:19,051 I'd painted a really lovely picture of her really helping the community, 436 00:21:19,091 --> 00:21:20,891 but of course there's, you know, 437 00:21:20,931 --> 00:21:23,291 there's going to be people who aren't going to pay, 438 00:21:23,331 --> 00:21:25,411 and if you've got to get your money back, 439 00:21:25,451 --> 00:21:28,051 you've got to get it back, haven't you? So, yeah... 440 00:21:29,131 --> 00:21:32,131 "They also report that many women borrow without 441 00:21:32,171 --> 00:21:33,771 "their husbands' knowledge 442 00:21:33,811 --> 00:21:35,411 "and live in constant terror 443 00:21:35,451 --> 00:21:39,291 "of exposure by rapacious moneylenders." 444 00:21:39,331 --> 00:21:41,171 Oh, my goodness. 445 00:21:41,211 --> 00:21:44,051 "We have known of many lives which are full of misery 446 00:21:44,091 --> 00:21:47,611 "due entirely to the habit of recourse to moneylenders." 447 00:21:49,851 --> 00:21:53,051 That's quite a tough read. 448 00:21:53,091 --> 00:21:54,771 It's pretty awful. 449 00:21:54,811 --> 00:21:57,651 So, what would this mean for my great-grandmother, Mary? 450 00:21:57,691 --> 00:22:02,051 So, this 1927 Moneylenders Bill then lays down a new law 451 00:22:02,091 --> 00:22:04,891 that says that everybody has to be licensed. Mm-hm. 452 00:22:04,931 --> 00:22:09,091 Holding a licence gives someone public credibility of some sort. 453 00:22:09,131 --> 00:22:12,931 If your great-grandmother had wanted to be licensed, 454 00:22:12,971 --> 00:22:16,731 then she would have to stand up in open court and defend her character. 455 00:22:16,771 --> 00:22:19,891 So, they didn't make it easy? Oh, far from. No. 456 00:22:19,931 --> 00:22:22,731 To find out whether her great-grandmother, Mary, 457 00:22:22,771 --> 00:22:25,051 was operating her business legally, 458 00:22:25,091 --> 00:22:28,851 Melanie is searching a register of moneylenders from 1939. 459 00:22:30,251 --> 00:22:32,411 Here it is - the register. 460 00:22:34,731 --> 00:22:36,371 Let's have a look. 461 00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:41,451 These aren't any names... 462 00:22:41,491 --> 00:22:43,771 ..that I recognise. 463 00:22:43,811 --> 00:22:45,811 So now we're heading into... 464 00:22:45,851 --> 00:22:47,651 We're in July now. 465 00:22:47,691 --> 00:22:49,291 I'm seeing names, but then... 466 00:22:50,491 --> 00:22:53,091 ..not her name. Scotland Road again. 467 00:22:55,291 --> 00:22:57,771 I'm starting to get a bit of a feeling I'm not going to find it. 468 00:22:59,531 --> 00:23:02,931 SHE GASPS There she is. 469 00:23:02,971 --> 00:23:04,331 Mary Bilsborough. 470 00:23:05,331 --> 00:23:07,291 I knew it would jump out to me. 471 00:23:07,331 --> 00:23:09,011 This is in July. 472 00:23:09,051 --> 00:23:11,051 6th of July, 1939. 473 00:23:11,091 --> 00:23:13,651 Her registration is granted. 474 00:23:13,691 --> 00:23:15,411 So she did it. 475 00:23:15,451 --> 00:23:17,891 Oh, God, I'm such an emotional wreck. 476 00:23:17,931 --> 00:23:19,411 She did it. 477 00:23:19,451 --> 00:23:21,131 She stood up... 478 00:23:21,171 --> 00:23:24,011 ..in front of people, proved her character... 479 00:23:25,091 --> 00:23:28,411 ..in probably very intimidating circumstances, 480 00:23:28,451 --> 00:23:31,091 and she got her registration. 481 00:23:32,651 --> 00:23:35,051 That actually makes me feel very proud. 482 00:23:36,531 --> 00:23:38,931 I am a rule abider, 483 00:23:38,971 --> 00:23:40,731 I'm not a rule breaker, 484 00:23:40,771 --> 00:23:43,411 and that's just funny that she did it by the book. 485 00:23:43,451 --> 00:23:46,011 And I always like to do things by the book. 486 00:23:46,051 --> 00:23:50,531 So, I do have something else that you might like to see. OK. 487 00:23:51,611 --> 00:23:53,691 So, Bilsborough... 488 00:23:53,731 --> 00:23:55,811 Oh, OK. 489 00:23:55,851 --> 00:23:57,851 So, this is deaths? 490 00:23:57,891 --> 00:23:59,291 Yes. 491 00:23:59,331 --> 00:24:02,891 And she died 13th of October, 1973. 492 00:24:02,931 --> 00:24:04,131 Yeah. 493 00:24:04,171 --> 00:24:06,051 And this is her probate. 494 00:24:06,091 --> 00:24:08,411 That looks like quite a lot of money, that. 495 00:24:08,451 --> 00:24:11,771 In today's terms, that would be more than £46,000. 496 00:24:12,771 --> 00:24:14,211 Oh, my goodness. 497 00:24:14,251 --> 00:24:17,411 From what she's come from... It's remarkable. 498 00:24:17,451 --> 00:24:19,011 Wow! 499 00:24:20,091 --> 00:24:21,931 She saw many things in her life, 500 00:24:21,971 --> 00:24:24,051 lived through lots of tough times, 501 00:24:24,091 --> 00:24:26,091 and, yeah, came out on top. 502 00:24:27,691 --> 00:24:30,491 Girl power. Feisty girl power. THEY LAUGH 503 00:24:37,451 --> 00:24:40,731 I have learnt so much about my great-grandmother, Mary. 504 00:24:41,931 --> 00:24:45,891 I actually feel really close to her even though I never met her. 505 00:24:45,931 --> 00:24:48,211 She came from nothing. 506 00:24:48,251 --> 00:24:50,891 She was a completely self-made woman. 507 00:24:50,931 --> 00:24:52,971 She kind of, against the odds, 508 00:24:53,011 --> 00:24:54,411 achieved something 509 00:24:54,451 --> 00:24:57,451 that was really difficult for any woman in her position. 510 00:24:58,531 --> 00:25:03,651 I know that my great-grandmother's maiden name was Flaherty 511 00:25:03,691 --> 00:25:07,091 and I was convinced I had some Irish roots. 512 00:25:08,171 --> 00:25:10,211 I'm still very intrigued. 513 00:25:11,291 --> 00:25:15,411 Melanie discovered in the 1911 census that Mary's father, 514 00:25:15,451 --> 00:25:17,411 her great-great-grandfather, 515 00:25:17,451 --> 00:25:18,891 was Patrick Flaherty, 516 00:25:18,931 --> 00:25:21,291 a dock labourer in Liverpool. 517 00:25:22,371 --> 00:25:24,891 She's meeting genealogist Rachel Rick 518 00:25:24,931 --> 00:25:28,731 to see if she can push this line further back, to Ireland. 519 00:25:28,771 --> 00:25:32,491 Hiya. How are you? Lovely to meet you. I'm Melanie. I'm Rachel. 520 00:25:35,691 --> 00:25:38,131 I've been finding out so much I didn't know 521 00:25:38,171 --> 00:25:41,051 about my great-grandmother, Mary Bilsborough. Yeah. 522 00:25:41,091 --> 00:25:43,531 Now, that was her married name. Yeah. 523 00:25:43,571 --> 00:25:46,891 I saw on some records yesterday "Flaherty". 524 00:25:46,931 --> 00:25:49,131 I'm not quite sure of the pronunciation 525 00:25:49,171 --> 00:25:52,611 but I'm really intrigued to know where that comes from. OK. 526 00:25:52,651 --> 00:25:56,011 I can tell you a little bit more. Fantastic. 527 00:25:56,051 --> 00:25:58,291 Ooh, OK. Yeah? 528 00:25:58,331 --> 00:26:00,651 That's my dad, then Nanny Kay, 529 00:26:00,691 --> 00:26:04,451 my great-grandmother, Mary Flaherty, maiden name - 530 00:26:04,491 --> 00:26:06,651 Bilsborough, married name. 531 00:26:06,691 --> 00:26:08,611 She was born in Liverpool. 532 00:26:08,651 --> 00:26:12,451 Then we go back to her father, Patrick Flaherty, 533 00:26:12,491 --> 00:26:14,331 also born in Liverpool. Yeah. 534 00:26:14,371 --> 00:26:17,011 His dad was also called Patrick Flaherty 535 00:26:17,051 --> 00:26:18,811 and he was born in Ireland. 536 00:26:18,851 --> 00:26:20,851 I knew it! RACHEL LAUGHS 537 00:26:20,891 --> 00:26:22,891 I knew there was some Irish in me. 538 00:26:22,931 --> 00:26:25,051 Erm, yeah, this is so interesting. 539 00:26:25,091 --> 00:26:27,731 I think what's surprised me the most so far 540 00:26:27,771 --> 00:26:32,291 is how far back my family go in Liverpool. Yeah. 541 00:26:32,331 --> 00:26:34,691 You know, because I knew there was an Irish connection, 542 00:26:34,731 --> 00:26:36,051 but I thought it came sooner. 543 00:26:36,091 --> 00:26:39,891 So it's my great-great-great-grandparents. 544 00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:41,291 Yeah. Yeah. 545 00:26:41,331 --> 00:26:43,851 Great-great-great-grandparents that were Irish. 546 00:26:44,931 --> 00:26:48,131 Wow. Oh, yeah, this is getting more and more exciting. 547 00:26:48,171 --> 00:26:49,771 THEY LAUGH 548 00:26:49,811 --> 00:26:53,171 So, do we know anything else about Patrick and Catherine? 549 00:26:53,211 --> 00:26:56,811 Well, records in Ireland are...patchy. 550 00:26:56,851 --> 00:27:00,891 We don't have any information about the birth or marriage 551 00:27:00,931 --> 00:27:04,611 of either of your great-great-great-grandparents, 552 00:27:04,651 --> 00:27:07,891 but we have got a record that you might like to see. 553 00:27:07,931 --> 00:27:09,691 Yes. Show me. 554 00:27:09,731 --> 00:27:11,611 OK. So this is... 555 00:27:11,651 --> 00:27:13,171 Is that 1846? 556 00:27:13,211 --> 00:27:15,171 It is, yeah. OK. 557 00:27:15,211 --> 00:27:16,851 This was... 558 00:27:18,051 --> 00:27:20,131 Yeah, I'm really struggling to see it. It's OK. 559 00:27:20,171 --> 00:27:21,891 We've got a transcript. Oh, OK. 560 00:27:21,931 --> 00:27:25,971 This is a baptism in the parish of Croom. Yeah. 561 00:27:26,011 --> 00:27:28,371 "Maria Patritus Flaherty." 562 00:27:28,411 --> 00:27:31,011 So, Maria, is she their first-born? 563 00:27:31,051 --> 00:27:32,371 That's right. OK. 564 00:27:32,411 --> 00:27:33,731 Where's Croom? 565 00:27:33,771 --> 00:27:35,691 Croom is in Limerick. 566 00:27:35,731 --> 00:27:37,891 Limerick?! Yeah. 567 00:27:37,931 --> 00:27:39,491 Oh, my goodness. 568 00:27:39,531 --> 00:27:43,131 I love the kind of... ..the legend of families, 569 00:27:43,171 --> 00:27:45,891 because I was always told it was Dublin 570 00:27:45,931 --> 00:27:48,411 where our relatives came from. Wow. 571 00:27:48,451 --> 00:27:49,891 THEY LAUGH 572 00:27:50,971 --> 00:27:52,411 "Carhue." 573 00:27:52,451 --> 00:27:55,051 Somewhere else I haven't heard of. Where is that? 574 00:27:55,091 --> 00:27:57,651 So Carhue is just outside Croom. 575 00:27:57,691 --> 00:28:00,411 It's in Limerick. Oh, I need to, erm... 576 00:28:00,451 --> 00:28:03,411 I need to go and see these places for myself. 577 00:28:03,451 --> 00:28:05,411 I think you do. Yeah. 578 00:28:06,491 --> 00:28:10,411 Melanie has discovered that her great-great-great-grandparents, 579 00:28:10,451 --> 00:28:13,611 Patrick Flaherty and Catherine Byrnes, were Irish. 580 00:28:14,851 --> 00:28:18,051 Their son, Melanie's great-great-grandfather, 581 00:28:18,091 --> 00:28:19,731 also called Patrick, 582 00:28:19,771 --> 00:28:22,571 was born in Liverpool in 1861. 583 00:28:22,611 --> 00:28:25,571 But a baptism record, for his older sister Maria, 584 00:28:25,611 --> 00:28:29,131 reveals the family were from County Limerick in Ireland. 585 00:28:35,571 --> 00:28:38,451 I've been to Ireland quite a few times over the years 586 00:28:38,491 --> 00:28:41,491 but I've never been to County Limerick. 587 00:28:41,531 --> 00:28:45,891 Looking around, I can imagine it's quite a wonderful place to live - 588 00:28:45,931 --> 00:28:49,131 it's beautiful, idyllic, rural - 589 00:28:49,171 --> 00:28:52,291 so my three-times-great-grandparents, 590 00:28:52,331 --> 00:28:57,131 Patrick and Catherine, must have had a really good reason to leave 591 00:28:57,171 --> 00:28:59,811 and I want to find out what that was. 592 00:29:05,171 --> 00:29:08,531 Melanie has come to St Mary's Roman Catholic Church in Croom, 593 00:29:08,571 --> 00:29:11,291 where her great-great-great-grandparents' 594 00:29:11,331 --> 00:29:13,411 first child, Maria, was baptised. 595 00:29:13,451 --> 00:29:15,891 She's meeting local historian Katrina Crowe. 596 00:29:15,931 --> 00:29:17,651 Hi. I'm Melanie. Nice to meet you. 597 00:29:17,691 --> 00:29:20,491 Hi, Melanie. I'm Katrina, and you're very welcome to Croom. 598 00:29:20,531 --> 00:29:23,011 If you'd like to make your way inside. I would. Let's go. 599 00:29:24,931 --> 00:29:26,491 Wow. 600 00:29:28,171 --> 00:29:29,851 So peaceful. 601 00:29:31,451 --> 00:29:34,611 OK, so, if you'd like to have a look at this. Yes. 602 00:29:36,171 --> 00:29:38,131 "County of Limerick. 603 00:29:38,171 --> 00:29:40,091 "Parish of Croom." 604 00:29:41,371 --> 00:29:45,131 And there's Carhue, where Patrick and Catherine lived. 605 00:29:45,171 --> 00:29:46,811 What is this document? 606 00:29:46,851 --> 00:29:49,371 It's a record called a tenure book, 607 00:29:49,411 --> 00:29:52,131 which was used for property valuation. Mm-hm. 608 00:29:52,171 --> 00:29:55,131 OK, so we've got Patrick Flaherty, 609 00:29:55,171 --> 00:29:58,291 my three-times-great-grandfather. 610 00:29:58,331 --> 00:29:59,411 He's the occupier. 611 00:30:00,931 --> 00:30:04,611 So I'm thinking this is his landlord. Reverend Trench? 612 00:30:04,651 --> 00:30:05,811 OK. 613 00:30:05,851 --> 00:30:08,931 And I've noticed up here - "Content of farm." 614 00:30:08,971 --> 00:30:10,891 So they are farmers 615 00:30:10,931 --> 00:30:13,131 and they're renting. 616 00:30:13,171 --> 00:30:15,091 He's renting a house 617 00:30:15,131 --> 00:30:17,211 and ten acres of land. 618 00:30:17,251 --> 00:30:20,051 What was his life like as a farmer of that much land? 619 00:30:20,091 --> 00:30:23,571 With ten acres, he's classed as being a small farmer. 620 00:30:23,611 --> 00:30:27,651 And at the time that your great-great-great-grandparents, 621 00:30:27,691 --> 00:30:30,451 Patrick and Catherine, are starting their family, 622 00:30:30,491 --> 00:30:34,571 this is when we're heading into the Famine. 623 00:30:34,611 --> 00:30:37,331 The Famine starts in 1845 624 00:30:37,371 --> 00:30:40,451 and their first child is born in 1846. 625 00:30:40,491 --> 00:30:44,651 OK, so that was the toughest time... Absolutely. ..here in Ireland. 626 00:30:44,691 --> 00:30:47,611 It's regarded as a watershed moment in Irish history 627 00:30:47,651 --> 00:30:50,331 in terms of changing its population 628 00:30:50,371 --> 00:30:53,331 but changing its whole economy and its society. 629 00:30:54,931 --> 00:30:57,251 In the 1840s, Melanie's family, 630 00:30:57,291 --> 00:30:59,891 like most of Ireland's population, 631 00:30:59,931 --> 00:31:02,851 depended on potatoes for their daily food. 632 00:31:04,451 --> 00:31:09,411 But in 1845, the potato crop was devastated by blight, 633 00:31:09,451 --> 00:31:14,171 a fungal disease, leading to what is now known as the Great Famine. 634 00:31:15,251 --> 00:31:18,731 Millions were left vulnerable to sickness and starvation. 635 00:31:21,091 --> 00:31:23,571 That must have been pretty terrifying times. 636 00:31:23,611 --> 00:31:27,091 Yeah. The west of Ireland and the south of Ireland were the worst hit. 637 00:31:27,131 --> 00:31:31,131 {\an8}So this is from about 100 years after the Famine. Yeah. 638 00:31:31,171 --> 00:31:32,651 {\an8}It's collected folklore. 639 00:31:32,691 --> 00:31:35,971 So this would have been reflecting back to this time? Yes. 640 00:31:36,011 --> 00:31:39,891 "The blight extended over three years here in Croom. 641 00:31:39,931 --> 00:31:43,891 "The deaths in my native place were many and horrible. 642 00:31:43,931 --> 00:31:48,051 "The poor, famine-stricken people were found by the wayside. 643 00:31:48,091 --> 00:31:49,771 "Emaciated corpses... 644 00:31:49,811 --> 00:31:51,291 SHE SIGHS 645 00:31:51,331 --> 00:31:53,611 "..partly green from eating docks and nettles, 646 00:31:53,651 --> 00:31:56,331 "and partly blue from cholera and dysentery." 647 00:32:02,171 --> 00:32:05,891 Catherine and Patrick would be seeing friends, 648 00:32:05,931 --> 00:32:08,051 family, loved ones, 649 00:32:08,091 --> 00:32:13,011 their community dying around them in really horrible circumstances. 650 00:32:16,691 --> 00:32:19,491 Yeah, that's...that's a lot. 651 00:32:19,531 --> 00:32:21,011 That's a lot to take in. 652 00:32:27,051 --> 00:32:28,931 Amid the desperate situation... 653 00:32:30,091 --> 00:32:33,851 ..many landowners chose to evict their tenants, 654 00:32:33,891 --> 00:32:36,171 sell their land 655 00:32:36,211 --> 00:32:37,411 or change how it was used. 656 00:32:41,331 --> 00:32:43,531 Hundreds of thousands of families 657 00:32:43,571 --> 00:32:45,131 lost their livelihoods 658 00:32:45,171 --> 00:32:46,851 and their homes. 659 00:32:49,451 --> 00:32:54,331 So this is an advertisement from the Limerick Chronicle in 1847. 660 00:32:54,371 --> 00:32:58,691 OK. So, "Carhue, situate ten miles from Limerick 661 00:32:58,731 --> 00:33:00,771 "and one of Croom, 662 00:33:00,811 --> 00:33:03,131 "it contains 168 acres. 663 00:33:03,171 --> 00:33:09,331 "Terms of sale can be obtained on application to the Reverend Trench." 664 00:33:09,371 --> 00:33:11,371 So, he was Patrick's landlord. 665 00:33:11,411 --> 00:33:15,251 So, basically, he's selling the farm where they lived. Mm-hm. 666 00:33:15,291 --> 00:33:17,491 Frederick Trench is losing money. 667 00:33:17,531 --> 00:33:21,411 Some landlords are going into debt and risking bankruptcy, 668 00:33:21,451 --> 00:33:23,131 so, for him, it's really... 669 00:33:23,171 --> 00:33:25,051 It's an asset. It's business. 670 00:33:25,091 --> 00:33:26,611 It's business. Exactly. 671 00:33:26,651 --> 00:33:30,211 There he was, Patrick, with a young family, losing everything. 672 00:33:30,251 --> 00:33:32,691 It's breaking point. 673 00:33:32,731 --> 00:33:34,971 This is the last record to show you. 674 00:33:35,011 --> 00:33:37,051 SHE EXHALES OK. 675 00:33:38,651 --> 00:33:40,491 We have this as well. 676 00:33:40,531 --> 00:33:43,091 So this is a baptism. 677 00:33:43,131 --> 00:33:45,491 1848 - we're still in the Famine. 678 00:33:45,531 --> 00:33:48,811 So, Margaret... Their second daughter? Yeah. 679 00:33:49,891 --> 00:33:51,891 Oh, they've moved. Mm-hm. 680 00:33:51,931 --> 00:33:54,931 Parish of St Michael's, Limerick City. 681 00:33:54,971 --> 00:33:58,171 In the summer of 1848, 682 00:33:58,211 --> 00:34:01,491 Patrick and his family leave Carhue. 683 00:34:01,531 --> 00:34:05,651 So I think the next part of this for me 684 00:34:05,691 --> 00:34:07,171 is going to Limerick 685 00:34:07,211 --> 00:34:09,131 and seeing if I can find out 686 00:34:09,171 --> 00:34:11,211 what was waiting for them there. 687 00:34:19,171 --> 00:34:22,851 Everything I've just found out is pretty hard to get your head around. 688 00:34:23,931 --> 00:34:26,651 The Great Famine, here in Ireland, 689 00:34:26,691 --> 00:34:33,131 we know it was a huge part of history that changed the country. 690 00:34:33,171 --> 00:34:37,131 But having relatives and feeling that closeness to these people, 691 00:34:37,171 --> 00:34:38,971 even though I never knew them, 692 00:34:39,011 --> 00:34:41,651 that connection and hearing the reality of it, 693 00:34:41,691 --> 00:34:44,611 and kind of putting yourself in their shoes, 694 00:34:44,651 --> 00:34:46,211 it's...it's shocking. 695 00:34:49,171 --> 00:34:53,411 Melanie is retracing the steps of her three-times-great-grandparents 696 00:34:53,451 --> 00:34:55,971 and travelling to Limerick City. 697 00:34:56,011 --> 00:34:58,971 She's meeting Famine historian Paul O'Brien 698 00:34:59,011 --> 00:35:01,651 in the area where the family lived. 699 00:35:01,691 --> 00:35:04,491 Hi. Good morning, Melanie. I'm Paul. Nice to meet you. 700 00:35:04,531 --> 00:35:07,051 Welcome to Limerick. How are you? Thank you. I'm good. 701 00:35:07,091 --> 00:35:09,051 After yourself, please. Thank you. 702 00:35:11,451 --> 00:35:15,291 I know my three-times-great-grandparents, 703 00:35:15,331 --> 00:35:18,171 Catherine and Patrick, ended up here, 704 00:35:18,211 --> 00:35:20,931 and I'm just wondering if things are any better. 705 00:35:20,971 --> 00:35:23,651 They're in a new context. They've come from the country, 706 00:35:23,691 --> 00:35:26,411 they're country people, and they're now in the city. 707 00:35:26,451 --> 00:35:30,011 So, the family are considered to be landless labourers. 708 00:35:30,051 --> 00:35:34,411 Really, the lowest of the low in terms of the social hierarchy. 709 00:35:34,451 --> 00:35:36,211 They have nothing. 710 00:35:36,251 --> 00:35:39,411 Would there have been a lot of the countryside people 711 00:35:39,451 --> 00:35:41,451 coming into the city? Absolutely. 712 00:35:41,491 --> 00:35:45,891 So, people came from all around, all feeding into Limerick, 713 00:35:45,931 --> 00:35:48,131 because Limerick is a port. Right. 714 00:35:48,171 --> 00:35:49,971 A very busy port at the time. 715 00:35:50,011 --> 00:35:53,971 And a further indication of the family's time in Limerick. 716 00:35:54,011 --> 00:35:56,891 Can you read the names? Does that say "John"? That says "John". 717 00:35:56,931 --> 00:35:59,131 Patrick and Catherine. 718 00:35:59,171 --> 00:36:03,051 OK, so, is this their first boy? This is her first boy. 719 00:36:03,091 --> 00:36:05,411 So they've got two daughters already. Two daughters indeed. 720 00:36:05,451 --> 00:36:07,091 And now they've got a little boy. 721 00:36:07,131 --> 00:36:09,371 So there's three children now. 722 00:36:09,411 --> 00:36:13,731 So, at this point, I'm assuming it's more and more pressure. It sure is. 723 00:36:15,171 --> 00:36:18,211 Thousands of desperate families, including Melanie's, 724 00:36:18,251 --> 00:36:21,131 fled to urban areas like Limerick City. 725 00:36:21,171 --> 00:36:25,571 {\an8}Living in squalid housing and with not enough work to go round, 726 00:36:25,611 --> 00:36:29,851 many families faced even harsher conditions than in the countryside. 727 00:36:32,331 --> 00:36:35,651 Imagine you're there, hoping and wanting this work, 728 00:36:35,691 --> 00:36:37,931 probably with hundreds of people, 729 00:36:37,971 --> 00:36:40,211 right, all going for the same work? 730 00:36:40,251 --> 00:36:42,811 Yeah, thousands of people. Wow. 731 00:36:42,851 --> 00:36:44,931 When they had their own farm. 732 00:36:44,971 --> 00:36:47,051 Indeed. And lost it all. 733 00:36:47,091 --> 00:36:49,011 Limerick City, at this stage, 734 00:36:49,051 --> 00:36:51,291 it would have been a terrible place 735 00:36:51,331 --> 00:36:54,131 if you were on that lower rung of the ladder. Mm-hm. 736 00:36:54,171 --> 00:36:56,731 In many cases, you would not know where your next meal 737 00:36:56,771 --> 00:36:58,091 was coming from. 738 00:36:59,171 --> 00:37:03,131 Over one million people died during the Great Famine in Ireland 739 00:37:03,171 --> 00:37:06,291 and as many as two million fled the country, 740 00:37:06,331 --> 00:37:10,451 mainly to America, Australia and Britain. 741 00:37:10,491 --> 00:37:14,851 So we know what happens to the family next from this. 742 00:37:14,891 --> 00:37:16,451 Another boy. 743 00:37:16,491 --> 00:37:18,611 Edmund. 744 00:37:18,651 --> 00:37:20,331 1855. 745 00:37:20,371 --> 00:37:22,131 Oh, here we go. "Liverpool." 746 00:37:22,171 --> 00:37:24,051 So, we're no longer in Ireland. 747 00:37:24,091 --> 00:37:25,971 We're no longer in Ireland. 748 00:37:26,011 --> 00:37:28,091 They have hit the final straw. 749 00:37:28,131 --> 00:37:30,491 They can't go on. Liverpool, I suppose, as well, 750 00:37:30,531 --> 00:37:32,211 it's a sort of promised land. 751 00:37:32,251 --> 00:37:36,411 By the end of the Famine, nearly 400,000 Irish people 752 00:37:36,451 --> 00:37:40,011 are living in Liverpool, so I guess there's a community there. Mm-hm. 753 00:37:40,051 --> 00:37:41,691 However... 754 00:37:44,811 --> 00:37:47,091 Oh... Oh, my goodness. 755 00:37:48,171 --> 00:37:49,611 They lose Edmund. 756 00:37:50,691 --> 00:37:52,371 Oh, gosh. How sad. 757 00:37:54,451 --> 00:37:56,451 He's died at eight months old. 758 00:37:57,531 --> 00:38:01,131 And they travelled to Liverpool, the promised land... Absolutely. 759 00:38:01,171 --> 00:38:03,011 ..and they lose a child. 760 00:38:05,171 --> 00:38:06,451 Oh. 761 00:38:07,531 --> 00:38:10,691 "Bronchitis." After everything they've been through. 762 00:38:11,771 --> 00:38:15,371 That pain, for any parent to lose a child. 763 00:38:16,691 --> 00:38:18,891 You just wonder, don't you, how people... 764 00:38:18,931 --> 00:38:21,731 ..how people carry on when they're just faced, constantly, 765 00:38:21,771 --> 00:38:24,091 there's just something else, another obstacle. 766 00:38:25,171 --> 00:38:26,691 Yeah. 767 00:38:27,811 --> 00:38:30,851 So, I've a little more for you to consider. 768 00:38:34,691 --> 00:38:36,371 So, it's a baptism. 769 00:38:36,411 --> 00:38:38,851 So, I have a transcription for you. Right. 770 00:38:39,931 --> 00:38:42,651 So, we have a baptism at St Anthony's. 771 00:38:42,691 --> 00:38:44,851 So I'm assuming this is in Liverpool, right? 772 00:38:44,891 --> 00:38:46,851 They've had another son. 773 00:38:46,891 --> 00:38:48,611 Yes. Patrick. 774 00:38:48,651 --> 00:38:52,371 So this is... This is my great-great-grandfather. Indeed. OK. 775 00:38:52,411 --> 00:38:54,051 There he is. 776 00:38:54,091 --> 00:38:56,091 So, your direct line. Patrick. 777 00:39:03,611 --> 00:39:06,411 Finding out so much more about the history of our family 778 00:39:06,451 --> 00:39:09,651 here in Ireland, it just makes so much sense 779 00:39:09,691 --> 00:39:11,291 to how my grandmother 780 00:39:11,331 --> 00:39:14,411 and my great-grandmother were so stoic 781 00:39:14,451 --> 00:39:16,691 and strong and resilient. 782 00:39:16,731 --> 00:39:20,931 My three-times-great-grandparents, Catherine and Patrick, 783 00:39:20,971 --> 00:39:24,411 had had the worst hardships that you could imagine, 784 00:39:24,451 --> 00:39:27,411 and it just totally makes sense that the family 785 00:39:27,451 --> 00:39:30,011 have gone on to be really tough. 786 00:39:30,051 --> 00:39:35,051 I know without my family fighting for their own survival 787 00:39:35,091 --> 00:39:36,891 through the generations, 788 00:39:36,931 --> 00:39:38,611 I wouldn't be here at all. 789 00:39:44,691 --> 00:39:48,411 Having discovered how her dad's family ended up in Liverpool, 790 00:39:48,451 --> 00:39:51,051 Melanie now wants to find out how far back 791 00:39:51,091 --> 00:39:54,091 her roots in the city go on her mum Joan's side. 792 00:39:57,931 --> 00:40:01,971 To help her, she's meeting genealogist Rachel King. 793 00:40:02,011 --> 00:40:05,091 Hiya. Hiya. I'm Rachel. Nice to meet you, Rachel. 794 00:40:05,131 --> 00:40:07,371 Do you want to come through? Yeah, let's do it. 795 00:40:10,691 --> 00:40:13,411 I've been finding out a lot about my family 796 00:40:13,451 --> 00:40:16,731 and there's a lot of Liverpool, but there's a little bit 797 00:40:16,771 --> 00:40:19,851 of a question mark when it comes to my mum's side. OK. 798 00:40:19,891 --> 00:40:21,931 What can you tell me? First up... 799 00:40:21,971 --> 00:40:23,251 RACHEL LAUGHS 800 00:40:23,291 --> 00:40:25,091 A family tree. 801 00:40:25,131 --> 00:40:28,131 Right. Oh, I see lots... MELANIE LAUGHS 802 00:40:28,171 --> 00:40:30,411 There's so much Liverpool! 803 00:40:30,451 --> 00:40:34,291 Erm... Keep looking, that's all I'm going to say. Yes. 804 00:40:34,331 --> 00:40:39,411 So, there's Mum, my grandparents, Vincent and Alice, 805 00:40:39,451 --> 00:40:43,131 and then my great-grandparents, Thomas and Eliza. 806 00:40:43,171 --> 00:40:44,891 We go off in two directions. 807 00:40:44,931 --> 00:40:48,811 I'm seeing lots of Liverpool on this side... Yeah. 808 00:40:48,851 --> 00:40:52,051 ..but on this side we've got Eliza, my great-grandmother, 809 00:40:52,091 --> 00:40:55,291 her mum and dad were born in Liverpool. 810 00:40:55,331 --> 00:40:58,811 Then Margaret Venn, her dad was from Liverpool. 811 00:40:58,851 --> 00:41:00,571 But... Aha, bingo. 812 00:41:00,611 --> 00:41:02,091 Devon! 813 00:41:02,131 --> 00:41:05,131 Rebecca Keef, she's from Plymouth. 814 00:41:05,171 --> 00:41:07,891 That is the most surprising thing to me. 815 00:41:07,931 --> 00:41:11,051 With my family, obviously, lots of Liverpool... Yeah. 816 00:41:11,091 --> 00:41:14,971 ..but the south of England is a bit of a surprise. Yeah. 817 00:41:15,011 --> 00:41:18,411 And then we go even further back to Thomas Keef 818 00:41:18,451 --> 00:41:21,571 and his wife Rebecca Widgery. 819 00:41:21,611 --> 00:41:24,811 They were both Devon. Yeah. OK. 820 00:41:24,851 --> 00:41:27,651 Do we know anything about my southern ancestry? 821 00:41:27,691 --> 00:41:30,691 Thomas is quite an interesting chap. Ooh, is he?! 822 00:41:30,731 --> 00:41:32,211 So let me work out who... 823 00:41:32,251 --> 00:41:33,571 This relationship. 824 00:41:33,611 --> 00:41:37,331 So, Thomas is my four-times... Yeah. ..great-grandfather. 825 00:41:37,371 --> 00:41:40,651 Great-great-great-great-grandfather. OK. 826 00:41:40,691 --> 00:41:43,931 So we're going back to the early 1800s now. Yep. 827 00:41:46,771 --> 00:41:48,971 OK, there he is, at the top. 828 00:41:49,011 --> 00:41:52,451 He's born in October 1818. 829 00:41:52,491 --> 00:41:56,411 So what this document is is an application register 830 00:41:56,451 --> 00:41:59,411 for the Greenwich Hospital School. OK. 831 00:41:59,451 --> 00:42:01,651 And if we look at this side... 832 00:42:01,691 --> 00:42:03,411 "Residence." 833 00:42:03,451 --> 00:42:05,731 I can't quite read that. What does it say? 834 00:42:05,771 --> 00:42:08,411 It says, "Workhouse." Oh! 835 00:42:08,451 --> 00:42:10,131 Oh, goodness. 836 00:42:10,171 --> 00:42:12,451 So Thomas was living in a workhouse. Yeah. 837 00:42:12,491 --> 00:42:15,131 So, at this point... Do we know how old he is here? 838 00:42:15,171 --> 00:42:17,531 Erm, so this is 1828. 1828? 839 00:42:17,571 --> 00:42:21,371 So he's... He was ten when he was applying to go to this school. OK. 840 00:42:21,411 --> 00:42:24,931 I mean, I don't know if I'm jumping to conclusions. Is he an orphan? 841 00:42:24,971 --> 00:42:26,731 Yeah. And he's lost both parents? 842 00:42:26,771 --> 00:42:28,251 So, he's an orphan by eight. 843 00:42:28,291 --> 00:42:29,651 Yeah. 844 00:42:29,691 --> 00:42:31,411 Aw. 845 00:42:31,451 --> 00:42:35,291 Oh, and then he just ends up somewhere I imagine is horrific. 846 00:42:35,331 --> 00:42:36,531 Yeah. 847 00:42:36,571 --> 00:42:39,051 So, obviously, he's trying to get out. 848 00:42:39,091 --> 00:42:41,131 And did he make it to the school? 849 00:42:41,171 --> 00:42:43,251 He didn't actually get in. OK. 850 00:42:43,291 --> 00:42:45,211 Oh, poor boy. 851 00:42:45,251 --> 00:42:50,211 So he's an adult the next time we pick him up, on the 1851 census. 852 00:42:50,251 --> 00:42:51,651 OK. 853 00:42:52,691 --> 00:42:54,731 And we can see there, Thomas... 854 00:42:54,771 --> 00:42:57,891 Your great-great-great-great-grandfather. 855 00:42:57,931 --> 00:43:00,171 He's the head of the household. OK. 856 00:43:00,211 --> 00:43:02,411 But he's no longer in a workhouse. 857 00:43:02,451 --> 00:43:05,491 He's got an actual address. So, he's the head of the household 858 00:43:05,531 --> 00:43:08,571 and he has a wife, Rebecca, and... 859 00:43:08,611 --> 00:43:10,931 ..one, two, three daughters. Yep. 860 00:43:10,971 --> 00:43:12,931 Rebecca, Mary and Elizabeth. 861 00:43:12,971 --> 00:43:15,251 So, he's 35... 862 00:43:15,291 --> 00:43:17,131 Mm-hm. 863 00:43:17,171 --> 00:43:19,971 ..and this is his occupation. 864 00:43:20,011 --> 00:43:21,571 He's a baker. 865 00:43:21,611 --> 00:43:24,731 So his outlook probably was quite bleak, 866 00:43:24,771 --> 00:43:27,971 he didn't get an education, which he tried to do, 867 00:43:28,011 --> 00:43:30,531 but he's ended up with a profession. Yep. 868 00:43:30,571 --> 00:43:32,731 But there's more. OK. Good. 869 00:43:32,771 --> 00:43:34,651 Good, good, good. Hit me. 870 00:43:34,691 --> 00:43:37,131 So the Western Daily Press, 871 00:43:37,171 --> 00:43:38,891 this is October... 872 00:43:38,931 --> 00:43:41,171 ..1858. 873 00:43:41,211 --> 00:43:44,211 So, this is what we're interested in. 874 00:43:44,251 --> 00:43:46,051 "Insurance notices. 875 00:43:46,091 --> 00:43:48,771 "London and Provincial Provident Society." 876 00:43:48,811 --> 00:43:52,131 This is effectively an advertisement... Mm-hm. 877 00:43:52,171 --> 00:43:54,091 ..selling insurance. 878 00:43:54,131 --> 00:43:55,611 OK. 879 00:43:56,931 --> 00:43:59,051 "Bristol District. 880 00:43:59,091 --> 00:44:01,771 "Mr Thomas Keef..." 881 00:44:01,811 --> 00:44:03,491 Manager? 882 00:44:03,531 --> 00:44:05,571 He was a baker. 883 00:44:05,611 --> 00:44:08,811 Now he is a manager... 884 00:44:08,851 --> 00:44:12,051 ..at an insurance company. 885 00:44:12,091 --> 00:44:14,171 That's quite a leap, isn't it? Yeah. 886 00:44:14,211 --> 00:44:16,291 It's a very, very different career. 887 00:44:16,331 --> 00:44:18,891 I wonder why he changed so dramatically. 888 00:44:18,931 --> 00:44:20,851 He's also not in Devon any more 889 00:44:20,891 --> 00:44:23,771 because his address here is actually in Bristol. 890 00:44:23,811 --> 00:44:26,291 He's had a move as well, to Bristol. 891 00:44:26,331 --> 00:44:27,651 Why?! 892 00:44:27,691 --> 00:44:29,451 Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? 893 00:44:29,491 --> 00:44:32,051 That is really puzzling, isn't it? 894 00:44:32,091 --> 00:44:34,731 My mind is literally leaping all over the place, 895 00:44:34,771 --> 00:44:36,851 all the things that it could be. 896 00:44:39,931 --> 00:44:42,051 To answer her questions about 897 00:44:42,091 --> 00:44:45,651 {\an8}her four-times-great-grandfather's surprising career change, 898 00:44:45,691 --> 00:44:47,651 {\an8}Melanie has travelled to Bristol 899 00:44:47,691 --> 00:44:50,651 to meet with insurance historian James Neal. 900 00:44:50,691 --> 00:44:53,131 Hello. Hello. I'm James. It's lovely to meet you. 901 00:44:53,171 --> 00:44:55,811 Nice to meet you. Shall we go inside? Let's do it. 902 00:45:01,171 --> 00:45:05,211 I've been finding out about my four-times-great-grandfather, 903 00:45:05,251 --> 00:45:06,731 Thomas Keef. 904 00:45:06,771 --> 00:45:09,451 I think 1858, we pick him up here in Bristol 905 00:45:09,491 --> 00:45:11,811 and he is working in insurance. Mm-hm. 906 00:45:11,851 --> 00:45:14,891 But seven years prior to that, he's a baker. Right. 907 00:45:14,931 --> 00:45:18,891 But it's... You know, I just keep going back to his beginnings, 908 00:45:18,931 --> 00:45:22,691 and it is... He's really done well for himself. Absolutely. 909 00:45:22,731 --> 00:45:25,051 Insurance was... It was a, kind of, a big 910 00:45:25,091 --> 00:45:28,211 and aspirational industry at this point, so it was really growing. 911 00:45:28,251 --> 00:45:31,131 These companies were looking for people who could sell 912 00:45:31,171 --> 00:45:34,411 life insurance policies - because that's what it is, life insurance - 913 00:45:34,451 --> 00:45:37,051 to ordinary people, and he's a baker. 914 00:45:37,091 --> 00:45:40,411 He knows lots of ordinary people, he might be good at selling things, 915 00:45:40,451 --> 00:45:43,491 he is probably also good with money. 916 00:45:43,531 --> 00:45:46,331 And by the time he comes here, of course, 917 00:45:46,371 --> 00:45:49,331 he's become the manager of the company. 918 00:45:49,371 --> 00:45:51,571 So he'd worked his way up? 919 00:45:51,611 --> 00:45:53,811 Absolutely. He's certainly risen quite a long way 920 00:45:53,851 --> 00:45:55,411 from where he started. Yeah. 921 00:45:55,451 --> 00:45:58,651 And I think he's really part of that aspiring middle class, 922 00:45:58,691 --> 00:46:00,571 lower middle class, perhaps, 923 00:46:00,611 --> 00:46:02,891 although things do become a little complicated. 924 00:46:02,931 --> 00:46:05,291 If we turn to this from the local paper. 925 00:46:05,331 --> 00:46:07,891 Yeah. So we've got the Bristol Daily Post 926 00:46:07,931 --> 00:46:10,611 and this is July 1860. 927 00:46:10,651 --> 00:46:13,131 "Bristol Police Court." 928 00:46:13,171 --> 00:46:15,371 Yep. Eek! OK. 929 00:46:15,411 --> 00:46:17,051 SHE GASPS 930 00:46:17,091 --> 00:46:19,731 "Mr Keefe charged with embezzlement." 931 00:46:20,811 --> 00:46:22,211 No. 932 00:46:22,251 --> 00:46:26,131 "Mr Thomas Daniel Keefe of 3, Clifton-place, 933 00:46:26,171 --> 00:46:28,051 "was brought up on a warrant, 934 00:46:28,091 --> 00:46:32,651 "charged with having embezzled £2, 11 shillings." 935 00:46:32,691 --> 00:46:35,571 Today, that's probably £200 or more, 936 00:46:35,611 --> 00:46:38,491 so it's not a small sum... Yeah. ..to be accused of stealing. 937 00:46:38,531 --> 00:46:39,891 Wow. 938 00:46:39,931 --> 00:46:41,531 SHE GASPS 939 00:46:41,571 --> 00:46:44,051 I need to read on. I need to get to the bottom of this. 940 00:46:44,091 --> 00:46:48,171 "Mr Moat said defendant had been agent of the Society for Bristol." 941 00:46:48,211 --> 00:46:51,931 So he's no longer managing this district. That's right. 942 00:46:51,971 --> 00:46:53,891 It sounds like he's lost his job. 943 00:46:53,931 --> 00:46:55,131 Oh. 944 00:46:55,171 --> 00:46:58,811 "It was his duty to receive premiums from insurers 945 00:46:58,851 --> 00:47:02,411 "and to pay medical fees for the examination of such." 946 00:47:02,451 --> 00:47:04,891 So he would have been dealing in cash... Yeah. 947 00:47:04,931 --> 00:47:08,371 ..and, as the manager, he had to make sure that the agents 948 00:47:08,411 --> 00:47:10,891 brought in money from people's premiums, 949 00:47:10,931 --> 00:47:13,411 and from that money he would also have paid a doctor 950 00:47:13,451 --> 00:47:16,731 to examine the policyholder, because you didn't want to insure somebody 951 00:47:16,771 --> 00:47:19,731 who turned out to have consumption or be an alcoholic and not live 952 00:47:19,771 --> 00:47:22,451 very long, cos the company would lose lots of money that way. 953 00:47:22,491 --> 00:47:26,411 "He, Mr M, had ascertained that the doctor 954 00:47:26,451 --> 00:47:28,651 "had not been paid these fees. 955 00:47:28,691 --> 00:47:33,611 "Consequently, Mr Keefe must have put the money into his own pocket." 956 00:47:34,691 --> 00:47:37,891 Wow. We need to know the outcome of this case. 957 00:47:37,931 --> 00:47:39,611 It's gripping. 958 00:47:40,931 --> 00:47:42,731 So, Mr Keef, here... 959 00:47:42,771 --> 00:47:45,731 "The medical fees have been allowed to go on 960 00:47:45,771 --> 00:47:47,971 "and I have paid them in a lump. 961 00:47:48,011 --> 00:47:53,251 "The case is trumped up to ruin my character." 962 00:47:53,291 --> 00:47:56,611 I literally... I can see it all now. 963 00:47:56,651 --> 00:48:01,411 "Mr Bryce - 'Never mind your character.' Laughter. 964 00:48:01,451 --> 00:48:03,291 "'Let us look at the facts.'" 965 00:48:03,331 --> 00:48:07,651 I mean, there is some serious bad blood in this room, isn't there? 966 00:48:07,691 --> 00:48:11,771 Absolutely. Accusations flying backwards and forwards. Yeah. 967 00:48:11,811 --> 00:48:14,691 Because life insurance also, earlier in the century, 968 00:48:14,731 --> 00:48:16,731 had a really bad reputation for fraud. 969 00:48:16,771 --> 00:48:19,051 He's being publicly accused of something 970 00:48:19,091 --> 00:48:20,531 to protect their reputation. 971 00:48:20,571 --> 00:48:23,131 OK, so we think maybe the business is in trouble. 972 00:48:23,171 --> 00:48:26,051 It's like he's been set up. Yeah. Basically. Exactly. 973 00:48:26,091 --> 00:48:28,411 "The case was then adjourned for a fortnight, 974 00:48:28,451 --> 00:48:30,971 "the defendant being admitted to bail." 975 00:48:31,011 --> 00:48:33,131 They need to adjourn it to find out 976 00:48:33,171 --> 00:48:35,171 whether they can find evidence 977 00:48:35,211 --> 00:48:39,211 to clarify, one way or another, whether he did embezzle this money. 978 00:48:39,251 --> 00:48:43,051 There's a lot resting on it. He is out of a job with these people. 979 00:48:43,091 --> 00:48:45,291 Yeah. No income. Yeah. 980 00:48:45,331 --> 00:48:48,291 And if he's an innocent man. Yeah. 981 00:48:48,331 --> 00:48:51,051 Please tell me you know what happens next. 982 00:48:51,091 --> 00:48:54,611 I do have something else I can show you. Yeah? And it's over here. 983 00:48:55,691 --> 00:48:59,211 Over there? That machine there, yes. It's a microfilm reader. 984 00:48:59,251 --> 00:49:02,571 Really?! Come on, then. Let's have a look. Yeah, I've got to see this. 985 00:49:02,611 --> 00:49:04,331 Oh, my goodness. 986 00:49:05,411 --> 00:49:07,091 I'm feeling quite anxious. 987 00:49:08,171 --> 00:49:10,011 Where are we looking? 988 00:49:11,091 --> 00:49:12,651 "Western Daily Press." 989 00:49:12,691 --> 00:49:16,971 It's now July 1863. Mm-hm. 990 00:49:17,011 --> 00:49:19,251 Lots of teeny, tiny writing. 991 00:49:21,891 --> 00:49:23,451 Ah! 992 00:49:23,491 --> 00:49:26,051 "Trial of local insurance case. 993 00:49:26,091 --> 00:49:31,651 "The case of Keef versus the London and Provincial Provident Society 994 00:49:31,691 --> 00:49:34,251 "was heard before a special jury. 995 00:49:34,291 --> 00:49:38,771 "Sergeant Parry, on behalf of defendants, said his side 996 00:49:38,811 --> 00:49:42,131 "would assent to a verdict against them 997 00:49:42,171 --> 00:49:44,411 "of £100 and costs, 998 00:49:44,451 --> 00:49:46,651 "along with an apology... 999 00:49:46,691 --> 00:49:51,051 "..to Mr Keef, withdrawing all charges against him." 1000 00:49:52,131 --> 00:49:54,971 He was an innocent man... He was. ..all along. 1001 00:49:55,011 --> 00:49:58,651 "Mr Keef is now residing at Liverpool..." 1002 00:49:58,691 --> 00:49:59,851 OK! 1003 00:49:59,891 --> 00:50:04,771 "..where he acts for the United Kingdom Insurance Society." 1004 00:50:04,811 --> 00:50:06,971 This is 1863. That's right. 1005 00:50:07,011 --> 00:50:09,611 This is like... Three years passed, this has happened. 1006 00:50:09,651 --> 00:50:12,571 And, thank goodness, he's obviously gone on, 1007 00:50:12,611 --> 00:50:15,051 he's made a big move. Right. 1008 00:50:15,091 --> 00:50:17,891 But at least he's still been able to work in that industry 1009 00:50:17,931 --> 00:50:19,811 that he knows so well. Absolutely. 1010 00:50:19,851 --> 00:50:22,611 So even though they've tried to ruin him, they haven't. 1011 00:50:24,451 --> 00:50:25,611 To find out about 1012 00:50:25,651 --> 00:50:28,411 her four-times-great-grandfather's new life, 1013 00:50:28,451 --> 00:50:32,411 Melanie has come back to Liverpool to meet historian Ian Cawood. 1014 00:50:32,451 --> 00:50:34,971 Hello, there. Hello, Melanie. Welcome to Liverpool. 1015 00:50:35,011 --> 00:50:37,811 Thank you so much. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, too. 1016 00:50:37,851 --> 00:50:40,651 I know my four-times-great-grandfather, 1017 00:50:40,691 --> 00:50:42,931 Thomas, has moved up here to Liverpool 1018 00:50:42,971 --> 00:50:44,651 and I really want to know why. 1019 00:50:44,691 --> 00:50:47,411 Well, it's a bit unclear exactly why. 1020 00:50:47,451 --> 00:50:49,411 It's probably fairly likely he came here 1021 00:50:49,451 --> 00:50:51,291 because there was an opportunity. 1022 00:50:51,331 --> 00:50:53,251 Because he becomes a Superintendent. 1023 00:50:53,291 --> 00:50:56,011 It's possible, of course, as well, that he was trying to get 1024 00:50:56,051 --> 00:50:59,171 as far away from Bristol, where his name was a little tarnished. Yes. 1025 00:50:59,211 --> 00:51:02,891 Best to move away. Yes. But a fresh start and an opportunity. 1026 00:51:02,931 --> 00:51:05,411 I've got this document here which demonstrates 1027 00:51:05,451 --> 00:51:07,691 that he was doing more than just insurance. OK. 1028 00:51:07,731 --> 00:51:10,411 So is this an old newspaper, the Liverpool Mercury? Yeah. 1029 00:51:10,451 --> 00:51:12,411 We don't have that any more, do we? No, no. 1030 00:51:12,451 --> 00:51:15,411 "The Permissive Bill Movement. On Saturday afternoon 1031 00:51:15,451 --> 00:51:18,811 "an open air meeting in support of the Permissive Prohibitory 1032 00:51:18,851 --> 00:51:21,651 "Liquor Bill was held in front of St George's Hall." 1033 00:51:21,691 --> 00:51:24,131 Right where we are. Right here. Right here. 1034 00:51:24,171 --> 00:51:26,291 "There was a large crowd, 1035 00:51:26,331 --> 00:51:29,291 "probably 1,000 persons present." 1036 00:51:29,331 --> 00:51:33,851 "Mr T.D. O'Keefe..." O'Keefe. "..presided." Mm. 1037 00:51:33,891 --> 00:51:35,651 I know him as Thomas Keef. Yes. 1038 00:51:35,691 --> 00:51:37,651 He's become O'Keefe? He's become O'Keefe. 1039 00:51:37,691 --> 00:51:39,491 We're not entirely sure why that is. 1040 00:51:39,531 --> 00:51:41,131 We don't know if he changed his name 1041 00:51:41,171 --> 00:51:42,971 to distance himself from the scandal, 1042 00:51:43,011 --> 00:51:45,051 or he may just simply have adopted the term 1043 00:51:45,091 --> 00:51:48,051 to fit in more with people in Liverpool, with his community. OK. 1044 00:51:48,091 --> 00:51:51,051 So he's here, on these steps... Yeah. ..right there. 1045 00:51:51,091 --> 00:51:54,771 How many times I've come into town and done my shopping, 1046 00:51:54,811 --> 00:51:57,331 I've performed at the Empire... Wow. 1047 00:51:57,371 --> 00:51:59,691 ..literally across the way, not knowing... 1048 00:51:59,731 --> 00:52:01,971 Your great-great-great-great-grandfather 1049 00:52:02,011 --> 00:52:03,131 spoke to 1,000 people. 1050 00:52:03,171 --> 00:52:06,491 He entertained a crowd. Slightly different type of crowd, but... 1051 00:52:06,531 --> 00:52:08,931 I'm actually quite overwhelmed 1052 00:52:08,971 --> 00:52:10,771 just at the idea of that. 1053 00:52:10,811 --> 00:52:12,651 That's crazy. It is. 1054 00:52:12,691 --> 00:52:17,291 There's a big meeting supporting what, from my knowledge... Yeah. 1055 00:52:17,331 --> 00:52:19,331 ..and my guessing is, 1056 00:52:19,371 --> 00:52:22,491 it's anti-alcohol. Anti-drink. 1057 00:52:22,531 --> 00:52:25,411 He's in charge of this meeting and he's presiding over it. 1058 00:52:25,451 --> 00:52:28,411 So, "The chairman...", so this is Thomas, 1059 00:52:28,451 --> 00:52:32,491 "..in opening the meeting said they were met to support the bill. 1060 00:52:32,531 --> 00:52:35,811 "If the barley, he said, which was consumed for making 1061 00:52:35,851 --> 00:52:38,971 "intoxicating liquor was thrown into the Mersey, 1062 00:52:39,011 --> 00:52:41,891 "we might feel aggrieved at such a waste. 1063 00:52:41,931 --> 00:52:43,731 "But it was worse than that 1064 00:52:43,771 --> 00:52:47,491 "for it was turned on the country like a stream of liquid fire." 1065 00:52:47,531 --> 00:52:49,211 Isn't that brilliant? It is. 1066 00:52:49,251 --> 00:52:50,971 He was a hell of an orator. 1067 00:52:51,011 --> 00:52:52,851 "A stream of liquid fire." 1068 00:52:52,891 --> 00:52:55,051 He's basically, you know, saying, 1069 00:52:55,091 --> 00:52:56,611 this is a conspiracy... Yes. 1070 00:52:56,651 --> 00:52:58,411 ..against you, the working man, 1071 00:52:58,451 --> 00:52:59,971 and he's using language like that. 1072 00:53:00,011 --> 00:53:01,491 I love this guy. He's brilliant. 1073 00:53:01,531 --> 00:53:04,851 He's saying this is something that we need to fight back against. Yes. 1074 00:53:04,891 --> 00:53:06,251 Did the bill go through? 1075 00:53:06,291 --> 00:53:08,131 I'm afraid not, I'm afraid not. 1076 00:53:08,171 --> 00:53:12,171 Erm, it wasn't successful. Right. 1077 00:53:12,211 --> 00:53:15,051 But I think the most important thing for O'Keefe was, you know, 1078 00:53:15,091 --> 00:53:18,131 it helps to establish your great-great-great-great-grandfather 1079 00:53:18,171 --> 00:53:20,851 as somebody who's, you know, a major player in local politics. 1080 00:53:20,891 --> 00:53:22,651 If you would like to come inside, 1081 00:53:22,691 --> 00:53:25,251 there's a few more documents I can show you. Great. 1082 00:53:29,611 --> 00:53:32,011 This reveals what else he was involved in. 1083 00:53:32,051 --> 00:53:34,331 OK. So this is the Bee-Hive. 1084 00:53:34,371 --> 00:53:36,371 It's a trade union magazine, 1085 00:53:36,411 --> 00:53:39,851 so it's a working class publication. OK. 1086 00:53:39,891 --> 00:53:41,651 And this is now 1866. Yeah. 1087 00:53:41,691 --> 00:53:43,851 "The Liverpool Reform League." 1088 00:53:43,891 --> 00:53:47,411 So, "On Monday evening, the burgesses of Lime-street 1089 00:53:47,451 --> 00:53:52,211 "and St Anne's Wards held a meeting to promote the Reform movement." 1090 00:53:52,251 --> 00:53:54,491 OK, so what's this about? 1091 00:53:54,531 --> 00:53:58,411 They're campaigning to have the number of people able to vote 1092 00:53:58,451 --> 00:54:00,451 significantly increased. 1093 00:54:00,491 --> 00:54:02,651 So, who is able to vote at this time? 1094 00:54:02,691 --> 00:54:06,411 We're talking at the moment about only 20% of adult males. 20%? 1095 00:54:06,451 --> 00:54:08,891 20%. That's tiny. It is tiny. Isn't it? 1096 00:54:08,931 --> 00:54:11,891 I mean, 20% is, in a sense, the representation of, 1097 00:54:11,931 --> 00:54:13,451 if you like, the elite. 1098 00:54:13,491 --> 00:54:17,171 A lot of people who paid rates or paid taxes, 1099 00:54:17,211 --> 00:54:20,371 like your great-great-great-great-grandfather 1100 00:54:20,411 --> 00:54:22,051 wouldn't be allowed to vote. 1101 00:54:22,091 --> 00:54:24,891 This is something we completely take for granted now, isn't it? 1102 00:54:24,931 --> 00:54:27,731 You know, obviously, women haven't got the vote yet. 1103 00:54:27,771 --> 00:54:30,651 This is, you know, pre the suffragettes. Yeah. 1104 00:54:30,691 --> 00:54:35,331 Erm, but, wow, to think working men... Yeah. 1105 00:54:35,371 --> 00:54:38,171 ..paying taxes... Yeah. ..couldn't have their vote. Yeah. 1106 00:54:38,211 --> 00:54:43,091 "The third resolution was proposed by Mr T.D. O'Keefe. 1107 00:54:43,131 --> 00:54:46,851 "This meeting expresses its cordial approval 1108 00:54:46,891 --> 00:54:50,411 "of the extension of the elective franchise 1109 00:54:50,451 --> 00:54:53,251 "to all householders and lodgers 1110 00:54:53,291 --> 00:54:57,491 "for the relief of the poor and vote by ballot..." Mm. 1111 00:54:57,531 --> 00:54:59,771 "..and hereby pledges itself 1112 00:54:59,811 --> 00:55:02,411 "to promote in every legitimate way 1113 00:55:02,451 --> 00:55:05,171 "the attainment of that object." 1114 00:55:05,211 --> 00:55:07,131 He is fighting, isn't he? 1115 00:55:07,171 --> 00:55:09,571 He is fighting for equality, 1116 00:55:09,611 --> 00:55:12,051 for people to have this vote, 1117 00:55:12,091 --> 00:55:14,651 to be able to do it anonymously. Yes. 1118 00:55:14,691 --> 00:55:17,571 To be able to speak up and be heard. 1119 00:55:17,611 --> 00:55:19,411 "For the relief of the poor." 1120 00:55:19,451 --> 00:55:21,851 Remember where O'Keefe started. 1121 00:55:21,891 --> 00:55:23,531 Absolutely. 1122 00:55:23,571 --> 00:55:26,131 And he wants better for all, it would seem. 1123 00:55:26,171 --> 00:55:28,331 And he's willing to speak up for that. 1124 00:55:28,371 --> 00:55:30,411 And to have somebody like, you know, 1125 00:55:30,451 --> 00:55:32,611 your great-great-great-great-grandfather 1126 00:55:32,651 --> 00:55:33,891 actually standing there, 1127 00:55:33,931 --> 00:55:36,851 that articulate, self...you know...motivated, 1128 00:55:36,891 --> 00:55:38,451 determined, working man, 1129 00:55:38,491 --> 00:55:40,291 who, in a sense, you know, 1130 00:55:40,331 --> 00:55:42,731 Britain had built its great, great wealth on. 1131 00:55:42,771 --> 00:55:46,291 He's living proof of what can be achieved. Living proof. Absolutely. 1132 00:55:46,331 --> 00:55:50,651 So, how soon after this did things start to change? Very, very quickly. 1133 00:55:50,691 --> 00:55:52,171 1867, the next year, 1134 00:55:52,211 --> 00:55:54,651 the Second Reform Act is passed, 1135 00:55:54,691 --> 00:55:58,411 and guess what, all adult male householders get the vote. Wow. 1136 00:55:58,451 --> 00:56:02,131 And my four-times-great-grandfather was a part of that. Yeah. 1137 00:56:02,171 --> 00:56:04,891 And the secret ballot is introduced four years after that. 1138 00:56:04,931 --> 00:56:06,611 Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. 1139 00:56:10,171 --> 00:56:14,131 My four-times-great-grandfather, Thomas O'Keefe, 1140 00:56:14,171 --> 00:56:18,411 I truly feel like he was a good, upstanding man, 1141 00:56:18,451 --> 00:56:21,411 who had suffered in his life. 1142 00:56:21,451 --> 00:56:23,411 He had a very difficult start, 1143 00:56:23,451 --> 00:56:26,971 became an orphan by the age of eight, was in the workhouse, 1144 00:56:27,011 --> 00:56:29,051 but also achieved. 1145 00:56:29,091 --> 00:56:32,651 And it feels like he wanted that for other people. 1146 00:56:32,691 --> 00:56:34,891 I see Liverpool in a very different light now. 1147 00:56:34,931 --> 00:56:37,771 I've grown up coming into the city, 1148 00:56:37,811 --> 00:56:39,891 and little did I know 1149 00:56:39,931 --> 00:56:43,451 that so much of the lives before me 1150 00:56:43,491 --> 00:56:46,131 were also being played out in these streets. 1151 00:56:46,171 --> 00:56:49,611 And... I'm going to get really emotional talking about it, but... 1152 00:56:50,691 --> 00:56:54,491 ..with both sides of the family, the Flahertys came from Limerick 1153 00:56:54,531 --> 00:56:58,051 and O'Keefes from Devon, 1154 00:56:58,091 --> 00:57:00,131 Liverpool's been hope, 1155 00:57:00,171 --> 00:57:01,811 it's been refuge, 1156 00:57:01,851 --> 00:57:03,211 it's been reinvention. 1157 00:57:03,251 --> 00:57:07,051 They've overcome so much against the odds at times. 1158 00:57:07,091 --> 00:57:10,131 They've been hard-working, they've stood up for themselves, 1159 00:57:10,171 --> 00:57:12,651 they've stood up for what they believe in, 1160 00:57:12,691 --> 00:57:17,091 and I like to think that I have some of that in me, too.