1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,015 Action. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,575 SNICKERING 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,575 Cut! LAUGHTER 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,095 So on your left now is St Gregory's, 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,495 also known as the Phoenix Club. 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,855 Oh, I think they've still got the sign. Have they? 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:28,415 Yeah. 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,575 Ancl that's where we filmed Phoenix Nights. 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,055 Paddy McGuinness is one of Britain's best loved TV stars. 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,055 You going bald? No! 11 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:39,695 I can see your head through your hair. 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,335 It's always been like that! 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,655 He got his big break aged 27 when working as a fitness instructor 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,975 after his old school friend Peter Kay gave him a part 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,615 in sitcom Phoenix Nights. 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,055 Baldy Bouncer! 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,335 Leave it. Baldy, Baldy. 18 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,015 Baldy, Baldy, Baldy, Bal... 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:58,935 Leave it! 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,095 Since then, he's brought his comedy skills 21 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,415 to presenting hit shows like Top Gear... 22 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:04,455 Whoa! 23 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:06,815 Oh, clear. 24 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,335 ...and a Question Of Sport. 25 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,215 We've got to make this round quick tonight, 26 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,775 cos Hugo's got to get off and do a bit of stewarding on easy jet. 27 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,815 LAUGHTER 28 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,175 I was born in Bolton, Lancashire in 1973 29 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:26,055 and I was raised by my mum, Patricia Leonard, a single parent. 30 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,335 Always worked, used to take me to work with her. 31 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,375 So, my mum was a cleaner. 32 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,415 My childhood growing up was spent... 33 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,495 ...pretty much in bingo halls and pubs in Bolton. 34 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,215 My clad isjoe McGuinness but I found out he wasn't actually called Joe. 35 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,975 That's his middle name. He was actually called Patrick, weirdly. 36 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,295 I used to see my clad every other weekend. 37 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,615 He'd served in the Army. 38 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,975 He'd worked in the scrap industry for a short time. 39 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,815 just a happy, fun-loving bloke. 40 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:01,975 And, you know, it's a bit cliche, 41 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,255 but we were poor, but we were happy. 42 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,455 Down the mighty Auburn Street where I was born and bred. 43 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,215 I lived at number 26, which is coming up here on the right. 44 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,695 Number 26 is there with the white door. 45 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,415 Ancl then we moved to the bright lights and big city of... 46 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,015 ...number 30, two doors down. 47 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,575 I don't know if you've had anyone on the show 48 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,495 who knows as little about the family as me. 49 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,175 I know very, very little about my grandparents. 50 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,215 I can name my mum's mum - I think she was called Winifred, 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,495 and my dad's mum and clad, I couldn't tell you their names, full stop. 52 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,495 My mum and my clad have both passed away 53 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,375 and that makes it more difficult finding out anything, really. 54 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:06,415 I think my family is nailed-on working class. 55 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,655 I'd put a hefty bet on there being an Irish connection somewhere. 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,775 I mean, "Ooh, where is Paddy McGuinness' family from?" 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,415 That's a tricky one! 58 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,735 You know, I'll hazard a guess at Ireland! 59 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,415 If I'm in Ireland working, everyone always asks me, 60 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,735 "Where are your family from?" And it's... 61 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,095 I won't say it's embarrassing, but it's just a bit like... 62 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,215 I feel like, "God, I should know this." 63 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,335 I'd love to find out more about that. 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,295 You know, that really interests me. 65 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,335 Even if you told me a little bit about my grandparents, 66 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,215 that would be amazing to me, 67 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,015 never mind, you know, two or three generations back. 68 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,535 It's just...anything is a treat for me. 69 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:49,975 Anything- 70 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,495 Father-of-three Paddy lives in Cheshire. 71 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,895 He's starting his search with his mum's side of the family, 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,375 so he's heading home to meet his Uncle Tony, 73 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,575 his late mum's brother. 74 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,415 My Uncle Tony, I just... 75 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,655 I've got a lot of respect for him and I love him clearly. 76 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,295 He's just a very special bloke to me. 77 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,655 He gave me a good male role model, which I never had. 78 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,255 Good to see you. Thanks for coming over. Yeah, no problem. 79 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:54,655 Right, come on, get through here. This is where t' kettle is. 80 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,415 TONY CHUCKLES 81 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,335 Right. Start with the first one here. 82 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,095 Yeah. Me and my mum. That's your mum, yeah, and you. 83 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,935 I'm trying to think how old my mum would be. 84 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,895 Maybe 36. 85 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,575 I look about two there. 86 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,775 You know, I tell you what I'd love - that head of hair back! 87 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,735 Yeah! HE LAUGHS 88 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,295 That'd be an absolute treat, that. 89 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,655 No, we'll not talk about that, shall we? 90 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,015 Do you know, one of the things with my mum, obviously... Very sharp. 91 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,175 I was going to say that's where I think I get 92 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,895 my quick-wittedness from, my mum. Yeah. 93 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,015 She was always like that, weren't she? Yeah. 94 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,735 No airs and graces, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. 95 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,775 So I think my clad might have been... 96 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,295 ...maybe 50s when I was born. Yeah. 97 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,535 Ancl do you know what, that picture there sums up my clad for me. Yeah. 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,495 But it's like, when I think about growing up, 99 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,655 you know, I love my clad, obviously, 100 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,215 but he wasn't a clad who really took me to football 101 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,855 or encouraged me to do things, really, 102 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,255 and I never had anyone like a male role model... Yeah. 103 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,215 ...until you came on the scene, I think. 104 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,455 Me and you became closer when we started working at... 105 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,455 Well, you got me a job at Vibraplant - 106 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,975 that plant, machinery place. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 107 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,375 I think you encouraged me a lot with different things I did. 108 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,935 Oh, yeah. And, like, when I was doing my karate, 109 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,975 you gave me your old Army kit bag 110 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,855 and we filled it full of sawdust. Which I haven't got back! 111 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,015 Says he's not got it! 112 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,215 I still use it! 113 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,015 So we're getting a little bit more, um...into the deeper waters now. Ah. 114 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,935 So these are your mum and dad, my grandma and grandad. 115 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,615 Yeah. 116 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,095 I literally have no memories of either of these two, 117 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,975 so can you tell me a little bit more about them now 118 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,415 while we're sat here? Firstly, their names. 119 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,295 James Leonard. 120 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,135 I was told for years it was Paddy! 121 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,215 Yeah, because his dad was Irish, everybody called him Paddy. 122 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,135 I love that. Back in the clays when a bit of casual racism was accepted! 123 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,895 Yeah. So that's where I've heard Paddy, then. Yeah. 124 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:01,375 So he's called James? 125 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,295 If you'd said James, he'd probably just go, "Who's James?" 126 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,935 So with my grand mum, your mum... 127 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,175 Yeah. I think this is the only name I know - Winifred. 128 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:12,615 Yeah. So it is Winifred? 129 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,175 Yeah. Oh, thank the Lord! Taylor. 130 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,735 Winifred Taylor. Taylor? Yeah. 131 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,095 My mum brought the family up. 132 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,735 We were none the worse. All of us. All of us. 133 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,815 Ancl she was always in the background grafting. 134 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,935 I remember, you know, 16, I think, when I was properly working 135 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,095 on a Saturday job over at Warburtons. Yeah. 136 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,055 But even before I could legally work, 137 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,175 I'd always do little part-time bits and bats. Yeah. 138 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,295 Ancl that's kind of been instilled in me from that generation, I think. 139 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,775 Yeah. Yeah. Even now in what I do, that's why I'm always doing stuff, 140 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,375 because I just can't... I feel as though if you're not... 141 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,015 You've got to put the work in, haven't you? 142 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,735 You've got to put the work in, yeah. 143 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,775 So can you tell me a little bit about your dad's younger years? 144 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,815 No. Did he ever speak about anything? 145 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,335 No, they... No. 146 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,095 What is it, do you think, about us lot 147 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,415 where we just never spoke about anything? 148 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,295 Well, you didn't tell children anything. 149 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,295 So I know you don't know much about your own mum 150 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,375 and dad's childhood. Do you know anything about their mums and dads? 151 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,095 Nothing at all. Zero. 152 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:14,935 I wouldn't even know 'em if I saw 'em. 153 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,775 So even if you saw a photo, you wouldn't... 154 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,095 You'd have to tell me. 155 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,295 Wow. As a family, 156 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,895 we literally know nothing about the next lot behind us. Yeah. 157 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,215 No. 158 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,215 I... I genuinely can't wait to find out. 159 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,215 Thanks to his Uncle Tony, Paddy has found out the name 160 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,815 of his grandfather, James Leonard, for the first time. 161 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,975 He's keen to see what else he can discover about his life, 162 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,535 so he's come to his home town of Bolton to meet genealogist 163 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:51,575 and historian Michala Hulme. 164 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,495 Hello, Michala. Hello, Paddy. How are you? 165 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,255 Very good. Thank you. Shall we go in? 166 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:58,535 Yeah. 167 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,295 Right, Michala, we're here to find out 168 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,575 a little bit more about this fella - 169 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,735 my grandad James Leonard, but better known as Paddy Leonard. 170 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,175 So can you help? 171 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,615 I can, and we can actually start right at the beginning 172 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,615 with his birth certificate. 173 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:17,895 OK, let's have a look here. 174 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,135 26th of February, 1911. 175 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,175 James Herbert. 176 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,495 Does that say Herbert? Herbert. 177 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,495 Well, you live and learn! 178 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,135 James Herbert. 179 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,535 Patrick Lenoard. 180 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:33,895 So that is the name of his clad. 181 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,775 Oh, wow. 182 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,335 Annie Lenoard. Yeah. 183 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:38,975 That'll be his mum. 184 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,655 So, Patrick and Annie, they'll be my great-grandparents. 185 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:47,455 Absolutely. Great-grandparents. Yeah. Right, OK. 186 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,655 Also, they've spelt Leonard - L-E-N-O-A-R-D. 187 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,495 Yeah. So spelling mistakes are quite common 188 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,535 as we go back through the records, and that's just because often 189 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:00,655 they'll just spell it how they hear it. 190 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:02,855 So that is just purely the person writing it 191 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,375 has just misheard the name 192 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,975 or it's their interpretation of how they spell it? 193 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,015 Exactly, yeah. 194 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:10,575 That's mind-blowing. 195 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,375 This is on a birth certificate! 196 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,815 It's just like, "What's that? 197 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,495 "All right, get that down." 198 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,135 Anything else, Michala? I'm eager. 199 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,935 Yeah. So we actually have the 1911 census. 200 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,295 Let's have a look here. 201 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,175 Patrick Leonard was the head. 202 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:26,695 Annie Leonard, wife. 203 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,015 My grandad, James Herbert Leonard, son. 204 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,695 Personal occupation, bricklayer's labourer. We've got that. 205 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,135 Charwoman? So that's brewing up? 206 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,015 No. So a charwoman is, in effect, like a cleaner. 207 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,815 Probably, to be honest, Paddy, just supplementing her husband's wage 208 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,415 and keeping the family afloat. 209 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,375 Is it common when you do this and you look back on families 210 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:53,455 that the same job carries on through? 211 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,935 With some occupations, yeah. Because my mum was a cleaner as well, 212 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,855 that's all I'm saying. Right. And her mum had clone a bit of cleaning. 213 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,615 I've been a labourer. 214 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,575 It's just... It's bonkers how that's just carried on - 215 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,695 labourers and cleaners. 216 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,855 Do we know anything else about what happened to them after this 217 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,735 or what they did? 218 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,255 We do. So this is in 1911, 219 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,935 but in 1915, things take a bit of a tragic turn for the family. 220 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,695 Oh, right, OK. 221 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,615 Let's have a look here. 222 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,735 The Bolton Evening News, Monday, August 30th, 1915. 223 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,415 "Patrick Leonard, a labourer, was committed to prison 224 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,495 "for one month's hard lab our. 225 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,415 "On the night of August 4th, 226 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,215 "the accused went home the worse for drink. 227 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,695 "He quarrel led with his wife..." Wow. 228 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,575 "..bruised her head and blackened her eyes." 229 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,455 Oh, my God. 230 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,615 "On the following Monday morning, he went out, 231 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,535 "apparently to go to work, but he never returned." 232 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:56,295 That is actually horrendous. 233 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,175 So he's gone off to prison, quite rightly. 234 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,055 She was traumatised at home with the children. 235 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,695 What happens then? 236 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,735 Well, I can show you, actually. 237 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,415 So this is the workhouse admissions register. 238 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,935 So what happens is he gets admitted to prison. Right. 239 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,815 Obviously, he's the main breadwinner. Yeah. 240 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,855 She gets taken into the workhouse. 241 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,935 The chances are that she's come in here because she needs medical care 242 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,895 and the workhouse would provide that medical care for her. 243 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,495 What happened to her children? 244 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,695 Did they go...? Are they there with her? 245 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,335 So, if you can see here, 246 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,775 we've got your great-grandmother. Annie. 247 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,775 But you'll notice somebody's missing. 248 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,575 My grandad James. James. Yeah. 249 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,495 Sojames is actually... He's gone to one of the cottage homes. 250 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,415 Cottage homes were introduced to separate children 251 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,015 from adult inmates in the main workhouse. 252 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,695 There they were taught skills and given schooling. 253 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,495 The idea was to keep them away from bad moral influences, 254 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,815 including their own parents, who could only take their children 255 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,735 out again once they could prove they had the means 256 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,655 to provide for them. 257 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:18,055 God, it's amazing, innit, when you think back to that kind of mindset 258 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,535 where you go, "Well, there won't be any negative experiences." 259 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:25,295 But being taken away from your mum and your clad is the most negative, 260 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,975 traumatic experience you can ever have. Yeah. 261 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,455 Do we know what happened to the pair of them? 262 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,415 So we actually find them on the next census, which is the 1921 census. 263 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,175 Right, 0|<. 264 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,895 Hang on a minute. 265 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,175 Patrick Leonard's back on there. So is he back on the scene? 266 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,175 He is, yeah. Out of prison 267 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,255 and my great-grandma's took him back. 268 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:49,975 Yeah. 269 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,455 HE EXHALES SHARPLY The mind boggles. 270 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,255 The thing is, Paddy, her choices would have been really limited, 271 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,175 right? So he is the main breadwinner. Mm. 272 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,055 She can't get a divorce. It's expensive. 273 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,655 That's out of the question. 274 00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:04,615 It's a Roman Catholic family. Yeah. 275 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,295 So it's... Frowned upon. ..frowned upon. 276 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,255 It's amazing, isn't it, how people were morals-wise back then? 277 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,175 When you say, you know, Roman Catholic - frowned upon divorce, 278 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,815 but spousal abuse, prison... 279 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,775 It's like... Yeah. "We can live with that." 280 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,295 "Whoa! Divorce?! How dare you!" 281 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,975 It's crazy. 282 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,735 Do we know, then, what happened with my grandad after that? 283 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,255 We do. So I've got another document for you to have a look at. 284 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,335 Fantastic. Slightly later. 285 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,495 Right, OK, so let's have a look here. 286 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,055 1935. 287 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:38,375 Oh, he's been married! 288 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,815 Oh, my word, Winifred Taylor. 289 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,695 So that's my grandma. It is. 290 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:50,975 Rank or profession - "colliery haulage hand below". 291 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,455 Below ground. 292 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,295 Miner. Miner. 293 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,415 HE EXHALES SHARPLY What happens from there? 294 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,615 I've got another record to show you. Oh! 295 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,695 Here we go! 296 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,495 Registration... 297 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,015 Oh, birth certificate! 298 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,735 1939, so four years after they were married. 299 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,655 Oh, hang on a minute! I recognise this name! 300 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,095 Is this my mum? 301 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,415 Patricia Winifred... 302 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,735 That's... That's my mum! 303 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,375 Oh, my clays! 304 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,455 This, for me, is the best thing, 305 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,015 just having this, because, you know, when you think about your parents, 306 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,735 you forget they were actually born and they were babies and everything 307 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,255 else, you know? Cos to me, my mum's just always my mum, but... 308 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,215 Oh, my word. 309 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,655 Wow. 310 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,655 Name and surname of father - 311 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,375 James Herbert Leonard. 312 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,495 Mother - Winifred Leonard. 313 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,535 Occupation of father... 314 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,895 What's that? Handle... 315 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,655 ...rectifier, is it? 316 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,655 Handle rectifier? Is that right? 317 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,015 Yeah. 318 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,775 A handle rectifier. 319 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,615 Something works... 320 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,215 Airplane. Oh, airplane works. 321 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,655 Wow. 322 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,375 So when we look at my grandad James Leonard, 323 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,855 even after all that adversity, 324 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,975 he's now married with children, 325 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:23,415 and it seems to me he's got a half decent job at an airplane works. 326 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,215 The plot thickens. But I'm glad about that. 327 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,775 Paddy's discovered that his grandfather was a handle rectifier 328 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,895 at an aeroplane factory. 329 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,855 Now he wants to know what this work involved. 330 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,375 The only aircraft company in the area was De Havilland, 331 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,575 whose factory was four miles outside Bolton city centre, 332 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,055 so Paddy's come to see the former site at Lostock. 333 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,455 Lovely clay for it. 334 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,735 He's meeting local expert Mick Crossley. 335 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,735 Good morning, Mick! Ancl look at that view! 336 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,615 Best view in Bolton, Paddy. How are you, pal? 337 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,455 Excellent, thank you. Gorgeous, that, isn't it? 338 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,375 I hope you can help me out a little bit, 339 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,255 because my grandad, James Leonard, 340 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,335 the last thing I learned about him was that he worked 341 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,175 as a handle rectifier around about 1939. Mm-hm. 342 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,495 Now, I'm hoping you can sort of give me the answers to this. 343 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,095 Let's start with this photograph. Right. 344 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:18,135 So mid-1930s, we were heading for war. 345 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,775 The government went off on what they call a rearmament program me. 346 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,055 Most of the aerospace industry was around London. 347 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,335 The big risk was any bombing, 348 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:29,615 you would have taken the entire aerospace industry out. 349 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,855 So there was a thing called the Shadow Factory program me, 350 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,015 and what they wanted to do was take the aerospace industry out of London 351 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,735 and put it into lower bombing risk areas, 352 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,415 as well as areas of high unemployment. 353 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,295 So Bolton ticked both boxes, really, there. It did. 354 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,375 If we look over there... Yeah. 355 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,495 ...that was the Lostock site. Right, 0|<. 356 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,695 Why here, Mick? Why did they build it there? 357 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,655 I've got loads of stuff inside, Paddy, 358 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,255 and I'll tell you all about it. 359 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,335 That's... Basically I'm angling to get in a pub! 360 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,375 MICK LAUGHS 361 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,455 So, Paddy, what we're looking at here, 362 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,695 this is a blueprint from the factory in 1944. 363 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,655 You know, I can just see there 364 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,455 it actually says "sniper's post". Correct. 365 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,695 There was anti-aircraft guns sort of a bit further 366 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,695 outside of the perimeter of the factory. 367 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,575 So this bit of the factory here, 368 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,815 that's exactly where your grandad James used to work... Wow. 369 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,615 ...every morning for the best part of 40 years. Wow. 370 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,495 Butties under the arm, away we go. 371 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,695 So this was built as a pretty secret factory. 372 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,055 You've seen where we are in the hollow. Yeah. OK. 373 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,095 That's a defence in itself. 374 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,095 There were big drums of oil, 375 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:43,935 and if they thought there was an air raid coming, 376 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,095 they'd set fire to those - big billowing black smoke, 377 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,455 and it could cover the factory. 378 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,455 I mean, that's mind-blowing. 379 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:52,895 I mean, it's genius. 380 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,415 Your grandfather, his role here, a very, very important role. 381 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,455 He would have been bound by the Official Secrets Act. 382 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,855 Ancl what this factory was set up for 383 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,735 was to build variable pitch propellers in massive volumes. 384 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,295 Wow. 385 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,095 So, weirdly, war breaking out 386 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:16,215 has given my grandad a chance to get into a better job. 387 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,255 You know, come out of the coal mine and learn a skilled trade. 388 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,735 The one thing for me which I still don't know, 389 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,895 what is a handle rectifier? Cos we've mentioned propellers, 390 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,975 but what is...? What is that? 391 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,655 So handle rectifier, Paddy, is basically a blade grinder. 392 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,015 The original propellers were all clone 393 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,175 by people like your grandad James. All of the profiling, 394 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,615 all of the surface finish would have been clone by hand. 395 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,455 So those propellers that he worked on would have been on aircraft 396 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,935 that were used during the war. Exactly. 397 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,295 Do we know particularly what aircraft? 398 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,815 Like, I'm thinking Spitfires, Lancaster bombers. 399 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,735 Correct. So he did do all that? 400 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,575 Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancaster bombers - 401 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,695 every aircraft you could name, 402 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,055 that propeller would have come out of Lostock. See, for me now, 403 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:08,735 whenever I'm anywhere, 404 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,815 and if I'm at an airshow or in the pub with my mates 405 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,255 and we're talking about Spitfires, as you do, 406 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,575 I'll go, "My grandad helped build them." Indeed he did. 407 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,135 Oh, the bragging rights! 408 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,775 He did indeed. Fantastic! 409 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,335 James Leonard and workers like him kept Britain in the war. 410 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,655 His factory helped turn the tide in the Battle of Britain, 411 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,295 making upgrades for fighter planes, 412 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,975 as well as manufacturing 77,000 propellers 413 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,935 and helping repair thousands more to ensure the RAF stayed in the air. 414 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:46,855 Paddy wants to see for himself 415 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,575 what his grandadjames was making in the factory. 416 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,775 so he's meeting curator Ewen Cameron at the RAF Museum in Cosford. 417 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,095 Oh! Well, Ewen, I recognise the name. 418 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:00,975 Talk about iconic. 419 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,335 This is a Supermarine Spitfire Mark 1a. 420 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:08,655 This is full of the latest bits of kit, 421 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,295 like the variable pitch propeller your grandad worked on. 422 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,775 This allows you to do things with the aircraft 423 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,335 you couldn't do before. It shortens your take-off run. 424 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,655 You can actually fly faster. You can fly higher. 425 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,575 Ancl that's always an advantage with a combat aircraft. 426 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,895 So what's this particular Spitfire's history, Ewen? 427 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:36,975 It's went into RAF service with No. 72 Squadron in April 1939. 428 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,975 My grandad was at De Havilland in '39 onwards, so... 429 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,655 Well, there is a chance that prop might be one of the ones 430 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,415 that your grandad worked on. 431 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,495 So you can sit there and say, "|t's my grandad that won the war." 432 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,255 There you go. Exactly! 433 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,175 Most of the propellers that are produced during the war 434 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,495 don't have any branding or logos on them. Mm. 435 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,615 Have a quick look at the front of this spinner. 436 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,175 Oh, yeah, I can see that! 437 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,215 Picture moment. I think that is a picture moment. 438 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,655 Let's have a look. 439 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,415 There it is. 440 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:17,975 De Havilland. 441 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,815 Contr... Oh, controllable pitch air screw. 442 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,455 Controllable pitch air screw. 443 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,735 Very proud to see that. 444 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,295 I'm very proud. Yeah. 445 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,055 Well, Paddy, it just so happens 446 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,295 we've got a little something extra for you here. 447 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,135 There is somebody I think you might know here. 448 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,015 I clocked him straight away! 449 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,535 Ancl that is your grandad's retirement party in 1978. 450 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,295 Look at that. 451 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,215 Cor blimey! 452 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,935 Oh, that's a better, that, isn't it? Look at that! 453 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,295 I'll show my Uncle Tony this. 454 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,495 Like his grandfather, Paddy has also spent time in factories. 455 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,175 We seem to be a family of grafters, 456 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,695 whether it's working in the pit or being a labourer 457 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,295 or being a cleaner, and I'm proud of that. 458 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,135 It's interesting finding out about my grandad's contribution 459 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,815 to the war effort, really. I never knew that about him. 460 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,535 Born into poverty, working in a coal mine, 461 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,415 and then war breaks out, 462 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,055 and then there he is making the propellers for Spitfires 463 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,095 and Hurricanes and, you know, all these kind of iconic aircraft. 464 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,415 It's amazing, really. Very proud. 465 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,255 Paddy has followed his maternal line back through his grandfather, 466 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,575 James Leonard, to his great-grandparents, 467 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,295 Patrick Leonard and Annie Cunningham. 468 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,695 Now he's moving on to his dad's side of the family, the McGuinnesses, 469 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,775 where he's hoping to find a connection to Ireland. 470 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,055 If you thought I didn't know much about my mum's side, 471 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,215 my dad's side is nonexistent. 472 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,935 Literally, I know nothing about the McGuinnesses, 473 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,575 so genuinely excited to find out who they were, 474 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,975 where they were from and what they did. 475 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,415 Starting his search from scratch, Paddy has come to Macclesfield 476 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,655 to meet an expert on the north-west of England, Charlotte Wildman. 477 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,695 Hello, Charlotte. Hi, Paddy. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. 478 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,775 If you'd like to come this way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 479 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,295 Well, Charlotte, all I've got to go off is my dad's name. 480 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,455 All his life, I thought he was called Joe, 481 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,455 but it turns out that was his middle name. 482 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,495 I think he was called Patrick Joseph McGuinness. 483 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,095 That's it. That's my dad's name. That's all you've got. 484 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,655 So this is your dad's birth certificate. 485 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,775 Right, wow. 486 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,735 1925. Yeah. 487 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,415 Name and surname of father... Is that William? 488 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,015 Yes. Name, surname, maiden name of mother... 489 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,895 Oh, right! Is that Agnes? 490 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,975 Yes. Yeah, so that's your grandmother. 491 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,455 What is amazing for me, Charlotte, is that's the first time 492 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,095 I've known my grandparents' names. 493 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,735 Wow. So I've found that out today. Yeah. 494 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,855 So William and Agnes. Yeah. 495 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,655 Occupation of father. Oh! General hawker. 496 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,895 Now, I think my clad mentioned... He spoke very rarely about his parents, 497 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,095 but he said his clad was like a rag-and-bone man. 498 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,015 Is that what that is? 499 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,815 It's not too far off the mark. 500 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,615 He would have had a cart and he would have been selling quite 501 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,575 kind of cheap goods to local people, like rags and things like that. 502 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,015 I vaguely remember him saying about going out with his clad 503 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,815 on like a trolley or something like that. Yeah, yeah. 504 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,135 Can you tell me anything about William and Agnes 505 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,975 outside of what I can see here? 506 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,975 Yes. We have some information about your grandfather, William, actually. 507 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,575 Right, 0|<. 508 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,495 So this is a copy of his service record. 509 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,415 You can see that number there. 510 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,815 Yeah. 3321. 511 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,095 So that would be his Army number. 512 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,335 Right, OK. So I've got a transcript here 513 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:55,335 if you want to have a little look at this. Oh, right. Brilliant. 514 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:57,375 Oh, great. 515 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,975 Royal Lancaster Regiment, joined 1891. 516 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,255 We're only at my grandparents, but we're already back to the 1890s. 517 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,975 I presume back then, you know, they were very, very poor. Yeah. 518 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,135 Was joining the Army a means to sort of just being clothed 519 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,855 and fed and...? Possibly, yeah. You know, for a young working class man, 520 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,255 there weren't many options for him. 521 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,255 You can see his previous job here. 522 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,735 Collier. 523 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,575 A collier was working in the coal mines. Yeah. 524 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,735 So a dangerous, low-paid job, 525 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,375 a lot of risk. Pretty tough, pretty hard going. Yeah. 526 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,095 It's amazing, isn't it, when you talk about jobs like that 527 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,415 and you go, you know, working in the pit, it was quite a dangerous job. 528 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,455 It was. "I'll join the Army!" Yeah. "Cos that's safer!" Yeah. 529 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,335 Which is staggering, really. I know. 530 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,935 "That'll be better than working in the pit!" Yeah. 531 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,775 Cor blimey! Yeah. 532 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,375 What's interesting for me is reading it says, 533 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,215 "parish or town you were born - Bolton." Yeah. 534 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,495 I just presumed he was from Ireland, that he was born in Ireland. Yeah. 535 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,455 We also have some more information, 536 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,775 particularly around what he looked like, a bit of detail here. 537 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,935 Oh, right, OK. 538 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,535 Five... 539 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,255 WOW! 540 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,375 He was a little fella, wasn't he? 541 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,815 Five foot three inches! Yeah. 542 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,735 So we have some information about where he went 543 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,295 during his Army career. Right, 0|<. 544 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:20,935 You can see there. 545 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,215 Oh, India. 546 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,415 So he went off to India in '94. 547 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,495 Imagine going somewhere like India then - 548 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,295 the different sights and sounds and smells 549 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,255 and food and colours and everything. It must have been like... The heat. 550 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,295 Yeah, the heat. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. 551 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,455 Malta '96 to '97. 552 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,135 Hong Kong! 553 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,735 Do you know anywhere else he went outside of what's on here? 554 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,295 We do, actually. 555 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,535 So we know that in 1899 he travelled to South Africa. 556 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,255 Right, OK. And we have a picture of his battalion 557 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,055 getting ready to leave for South Africa. Wow! 558 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,055 So he'd have been in there somewhere? 559 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,495 Yeah. Your grandfather William would be in here somewhere. 560 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,695 Oh, my clays! Imagine... 561 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,775 Well, we also have a newspaper report. 562 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,535 Right, OK. Let's have a look. 563 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,095 "Local officers at the front. 564 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:18,175 "The transport SS Dilwara is reported to have arrived 565 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,175 "at Cape Town on Christmas Day." 566 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,815 What must that have been like? 567 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,135 So why South Africa, 1899? 568 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,615 So 1899 is significant because it sees the beginning of the Boer War 569 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,575 against the Afrikaners, the Boers in South Africa. 570 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,015 So would you be able to help with, 571 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,575 you know, where his regiment actually were in battle 572 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,095 or what happened with them there in the Boer War? 573 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,495 Well, it'll be really interesting to find out, 574 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,615 and for that you will need a military historian. 575 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,575 HE EXHALES SHARPLY I am going through historians 576 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,775 here like a...at a rate of knots! 577 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,455 This is unbelievable. 578 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,655 The Boer War was a bitter conflict between two colonial powers 579 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,975 that broke out in South Africa in October 1899. 580 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,615 On one side was the British Empire, which wanted greater control 581 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,495 over the country, and on the other were the Boers, 582 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,695 descendants of Dutch colonists who fought to stay independent. 583 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,935 Both sides wanted the country's gold mines for themselves. 584 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,055 Paddy's come to the Royal Armouries in Leeds 585 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,335 to meet military historian Peter Donaldson. 586 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,215 Hello, Peter. Hello, Paddy. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, pal. 587 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,175 Shall we head off? Lead on, yeah. 588 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,535 Paddy wants to know what happened to his grandfather, 589 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,055 William McGuinness, during the conflict. 590 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,015 So, Peter, I know my grandad fought in the Boer War, 591 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,175 which is mind-blowing in itself, but you're going to tell me 592 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,695 a little bit more about it. I am. That's right, Paddy. 593 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,735 Ancl we've got a document here which will help you with 594 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,975 finding out exactly what your grandfather William did do. 595 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,375 Let's have a look here. Talk me through these, Peter. 596 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,575 So this is a roll for the medals given to all the soldiers 597 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,055 who fought in the South African War. Oh, right, OK. Wow. 598 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,095 So you can see there... So, 3321. 599 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,735 So we've got McGuinness there. 600 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,415 Um... Now, then, what are we on here? 601 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,655 These little ticks at the side here... That's right, yeah. 602 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,495 ...what are they? These are the engagements, specific battles 603 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,055 that your grandfather William would have been involved in. 604 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:22,815 Bloody hell. Right, OK. 605 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,655 Tugela Heights. 606 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,655 Relief of Ladysmith. 607 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,895 That's right. The main focus of the British Army is trying to relieve 608 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,655 this town of Ladysmith. 609 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,295 At Ladysmith, the Boers had trapped the main British Army 610 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,695 and thousands of civilians. 611 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,295 The race was on to lift the siege before the town was captured 612 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,175 and the empire humiliated. 613 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,935 William McGuinness's regiment was sent to capture a strategic 614 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,495 high point along the route into Ladysmith, known as Spion Kop. 615 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,695 Your grandfather William is going to have a really challenging task. 616 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,895 Ancl just to get a sense of how challenging it is, 617 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,015 we've got this other document, a nice photograph. 618 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,535 What are we looking at here, Peter? 619 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,015 So this is a photograph of your grandfather's regiment, 620 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,935 the King's Own Royal Lancaster, in Natal, 621 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,535 crossing - this is the Tugela River, 622 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,255 and this is them on their way to Spion Kop, which means Lookout Hill. 623 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,175 It's one of the higher hills surrounding Ladysmith. 624 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,015 Ancl their idea is they're going to seize this highest point, 625 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,175 and from that, they'll open the road to Ladysmith. 626 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,615 I mean, there are about 20,000 soldiers on the march here, 627 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,495 but amongst this 20,000, your grandfather, William, obviously. 628 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,895 Also Winston Churchill is in there. 629 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,775 He was a journalist and then he got himself a commission. 630 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,735 Mahatma Gandhi is there as a stretcher bearer. 631 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,015 Wow! Yeah, yeah. So... Wow! 632 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,415 ...they're heading for a really titanic battle. 633 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,855 My God. Tell me more, Peter. Tell me more. 634 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,895 Well, we've got a letter from a soldier 635 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,815 in your grandfather's regiment, 636 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,735 and he writes shortly after the Battle of Spion Kop 637 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,055 and he's going to describe what happened to him, 638 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,295 and what happened to him is also what will have happened 639 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,655 to your grandfather. My word. Right, OK. 640 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,415 Here's an extract from it. 641 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,935 "As the clouds lifted, the sniping became a general rifle fire. 642 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,495 "And presently, about 6am, 643 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,895 "we were under the hottest fire from about 8,000 rifles. 644 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,935 "Then they started shelling us from both sides. 645 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,415 "One man within a few feet behind me was blown in pieces by one, 646 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,615 "and the trenches were soon filled with the dead and wounded. 647 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,335 "The mystery is how any of us escaped, and what was it all for? 648 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,935 "None of us know." 649 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,735 It's such a powerful thing reading that 650 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,055 because these young men out there asking themselves, 651 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,575 "Why are we fighting?" Absolutely. None of them know, you know? Yeah. 652 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,375 Nothing's really changed with war, in my mind, in that sense. Yeah. 653 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,095 I mean, Spion Kop was an absolute disaster for the British. 654 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,415 300 were killed, about 600 wounded. 655 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,455 Ancl it doesn't seem like big numbers to the First World War, 656 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,015 but at the time, that was, I mean, incredibly shocking to the British. 657 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,455 Not only did they lose, but they lost over 1,000 men out of action, 658 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,335 and for 16 hours, stuck on the plateau under this shellfire, 659 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,255 the rifle fire, burning heat, raging thirst. Oh... 660 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,335 Literally just like being in hell, essentially. 661 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,935 Yeah, it would be. Paddy, just, you know, to show you the impact 662 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,335 that this had, the shock it had for the British public was that 663 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,975 back home, many football grounds, most of them in the North West, 664 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,655 because that's where the men came from who fought in it, 665 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,535 named their football stands after Spion Kop 666 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,495 because it looked like the hill of Spion Kop. So Liverpool, famously, 667 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,975 but I think Preston North End, I think, had a Kop. So, hang on 668 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,095 a minute. When you hear about Liverpool and the Kop, 669 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,415 that's what it was...? Yeah, that's where it comes from. 670 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,775 That is absolutely mind-blowing. Yeah. 671 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,095 So after this battle, 672 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,175 do we know what happened with William after that? 673 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,815 We do. So we've got some records which will show us. 674 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,655 Right, OK. And I've got something which you might really be interested 675 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,775 in seeing, Paddy. So have a look. 676 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,135 Oh, right, OK. 677 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,615 Oh, my word. 678 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,895 Wow. So obviously a medal. 679 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,375 Yeah, absolutely. Um... 680 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,255 Something Heights. That's right - Tugela Heights. 681 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,815 Tugela Heights. 682 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,375 So this is after Spion Kop, and this is another battle 683 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,215 that your grandfather William was involved in. Yeah. 684 00:34:17,240 --> 00:34:21,175 They tried to breach the Tugela and open up the road to Ladysmith. 685 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:22,935 They failed with Spion Kop. 686 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,615 Two weeks later, they try again. They fail again. 687 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,055 So this is their fourth go, in fact, of crossing the Tugela River. 688 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,695 Ancl on 27th February, they have a battle 689 00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:35,255 called the Battle of Pieters Hill, which is the last major engagement, 690 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,055 and they push the Boers out of Pieters Hill, 691 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,575 open up the road to Ladysmith, and that's the end of the siege. Wow. 692 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,335 Let's have a look here. 693 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,095 Hold on. I'm just about... 694 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,255 No way! Yeah! Yeah. 695 00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:52,495 That is un... 696 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,055 Where the heck have you found that? 697 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,095 That says McGuinness on it! It does. 698 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,655 So a private collector has it. 699 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,255 My Word! 700 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,615 Ancl there's his number - 332... Yeah. 701 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,495 Oh, my God! 702 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,175 That is actually mind-blowing! 703 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,615 WOW! 704 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,495 That is... 705 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,735 Seriously, and I'm not often lost for words, Peter, 706 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,895 but that has left me speechless. 707 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,375 It's lovely, isn't it? It's a real connection. 708 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,255 My God! It really is. 709 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,495 I really feel that as |'m...as I'm holding it. It's... 710 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,575 The fact that...that's been on... 711 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,935 ...you know, in his hand, on his chest... Yeah, I know. 712 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,535 It's amazing. And what he went through to get it. 713 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,935 Right. Yes. 714 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,935 What an honour to sort of hold this in my hand and just... 715 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:54,415 Wow. 716 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,295 Me dad's passed away, but I'd have loved to have shown him this 717 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,295 cos this is his father's. Yeah. Right. 718 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,215 I think he'd have loved to have had this medal. 719 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,375 No, absolutely. It would be really moving for him. 720 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,135 My word. 721 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,655 So, after this, what happened then? 722 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,415 Right. We can have a look at another document. Yeah. 723 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,415 So this is the original, and here's a transcript of it. 724 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,895 So this is a statement of the services of 3321, 725 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,575 who is obviously William McGuinness. Yes. 726 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,975 Hang on a minute. I'm seeing... 727 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,655 The first thing I've seen is "awaiting trial." Yes. 728 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,815 My word. Right, OK. 729 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,495 Number one - "When on active service, 730 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,535 "disobeying a lawful command given to." Right. 731 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,935 Ancl number two - "When on active service, 732 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,375 "using insubordinate languages to superior officer 733 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,255 "with HL for 168 clays." Yeah. 734 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,895 Now, the first thing I want to ask you is, do you know what that is? 735 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,335 Right. And the second thing is, doesn't surprise me 736 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,495 cos I am a very similar mindset. OK. 737 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,815 I don't think it's ever been lost on the McGuinnesses 738 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,815 to challenge authority. Right. 739 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,895 I mean, so the 168 clays is imprisonment with hard lab our - HL, 740 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,815 so a pretty hefty punishment. What?! 741 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,215 Yeah, I know. 742 00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:11,335 He's got 168 clays' hard lab our. Yeah, I know. 743 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,175 I mean... I mean, what has he said? Or was it just that was the thing 744 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,455 back then, it didn't matter. Well, actually, so what probably happened 745 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,175 is he's let his sort of more spirited side get the better of him 746 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,055 and when he's been ordered to do something, and this is probably some 747 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,655 routine duty that he just doesn't want to do, 748 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,775 and he's let the senior officer know exactly what he thinks of it. Yeah. 749 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,415 And the ordinary soldier, William, is from a working-class background, 750 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,615 and the officers are going to come from the upper middle classes. 751 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,135 Yeah. Ancl there's going to be no meeting point between the two 752 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,175 and they're not going to tolerate anybody...any cheek 753 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,135 from a working-class soldier to an upper-middle-class officer. 754 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,695 And, you know, after being in a battle like that, 755 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,015 whatever was asked for him there, you know, he's probably going, 756 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,575 "Have you not had enough?" Indeed. Right. 757 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,975 If you look a little bit further down... Ha! Right. 758 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,055 Yeah. Well, firstly, I've just seen massive letters - 759 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,295 "Character Bad". Yes, yeah. 760 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,935 Wow. We've gone from hero to convict here... No, indeed. 761 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,135 ...in one fell swoop. I know. Within the space of a year, really. 762 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,135 Yeah. Dear me. That's right. 763 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,015 Gosh, it's so interesting. 764 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,855 Knowing he was in the Boer War was something, 765 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,175 but to actually hold a medal that he wore - 766 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,855 you know, he looked at it with his own eyes and touched it 767 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,815 and pinned it on his chest, to have that now, in this clay and age, 768 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,495 it's a miracle, really, to get hold of that. 769 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,535 Ancl it just gave me a real sense of pride, 770 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,895 but a connection as well 771 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,815 to someone who I've never met or laid eyes on. 772 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,495 So far, Paddy has not found any connection 773 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,975 between the McGuinnesses and Ireland. 774 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,095 Now he wants to trace his paternal line further back, 775 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,655 to try to find a link. 776 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,615 I always had it in me mind. I wanted to know about 777 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,535 whereabouts in Ireland me family came from. 778 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,415 Ancl I think the shock of me grandad being born in Bolton, 779 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,335 where I thought he was Irish, 780 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,175 the only way to kind of find out about his parents 781 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,575 is on his birth certificate, which I've got here, 782 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,895 so this is really exciting for me. 783 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,335 Let's have a look. 784 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,535 Name and surname of father... 785 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,615 That's blank. 786 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,575 Crikey! 787 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,615 Ancl I'll tell you how shocking that is - 788 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,615 I don't think I've said crikey in me life! 789 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,655 Name, surname of mother, 790 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,175 Bridget McGuinness. 791 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,255 So Bridget McGuinness would have been my great-grandmother. 792 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,935 What is a mystery is where me great-grandfather is. 793 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,935 To uncover the identity of his missing great-grandfather 794 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,655 and how the McGuinnesses are connected to Ireland, 795 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,775 Paddy is meeting genealogist Laura Berry 796 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,295 at the former Church of St Mary's in Bolton. 797 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,695 So, Laura, me grandad's birth certificate has 798 00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:23,655 his mum on there, Bridget McGuinness. 799 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,175 But where his father's name is was just left blank. Mm. 800 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,895 That's not his name - just literally nothing there. Nothing there. 801 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,015 So I don't know his name or where he's from. Mm. 802 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,175 Please help! SHE CH UCKLES 803 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,175 OK, well, I've looked for your great-grandmother Bridget 804 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,735 on the 1871 census, so a few years before his birth, 805 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,375 and that you can see here. 806 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,175 That's the address. Name and surname of each person. 807 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,375 Bridget McGuinness, head. 808 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,495 William Birtwistle, boarder? 809 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,095 It's quite common to have a boarder at this time to help pay the rent. 810 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,855 So still missing off here is the mystery man. 811 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,375 Me great-grandad is still not to be found. 812 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,135 Well, I've found a baptism record for your grandfather 813 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,055 and it actually provides us with his dad's name there. 814 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,135 Here he is. William, 1875. 815 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:25,535 Parents... 816 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:26,735 Oh! 817 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,135 William Birtwistle. Is that right? 818 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,695 That's right. 819 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:33,295 Hang on, so the boarder... 820 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,655 ...is me grandad's clad. 821 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,175 That's it, yep. 822 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,015 This is all getting a bit Jeremy Kyle for me now. 823 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,375 Why is he down as "boarder" and why is he not on the birth certificate? 824 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,415 Yeah, that's an interesting question. 825 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,615 So when your grandfather's birth was registered in 1875... Yeah. 826 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,375 ..Bridget and William Birtwistle were not actually married, 827 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,895 so although your grandfather was registered at birth 828 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:01,735 with the surname McGuinness, 829 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,975 he was christened with the Birtwistle surname. 830 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,095 So McGuinness is from Bridget, then? 831 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,615 That's right, yeah. Wow. 832 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,895 William and Bridget did actually marry eventually, 833 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,575 nine years after your grandfather was born, in 1884. 834 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,055 So this is your great-grandmother marrying your great-grandfather 835 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,335 right here in this very church. 836 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,335 In here, now? Yeah, where we are now. 837 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,095 Yeah, this was the Roman Catholic Church. That is bonkers! 838 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,375 WOW! 839 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,375 That's mind-blowing, honestly. It really is. 840 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,055 So they got married, 1884. 841 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,735 I presume if they were married, Bridget would have been Birtwistle. 842 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,175 That's right, yeah. 843 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,295 Now, firstly, no disrespect to the Birtwistles - lovely name - 844 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,695 glad I ended up as a McGuinness! 845 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:56,975 "Welcome to the show. He's your host, Paddy Birtwistle!" 846 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,255 Doesn't really do it for me. 847 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:06,455 That aside, why did I not end up as a Birtwistle? 848 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,095 Yeah, it's interesting, that. 849 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,735 Do you think he's...there's a bit of rebellious streak there 850 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,055 and it's like, "|'m taking me mum's name because I don't like you"? 851 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,815 Yeah, it's hard to know, 852 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,015 but for whatever reason, from the 1890s onwards, 853 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,855 he stuck with the McGuinness surname. Right. 854 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,135 Ancl Mr Birtwistle has been written out of history. 855 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,335 Oh, poor William Birtwistle. 856 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,335 Oh, my God. 857 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,495 The other thing for me an' all, Laura, when I'm looking at this, 858 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,535 William Birtwistle - where born, Bolton. 859 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,895 Where's the bloody Irish lot? 860 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,015 So this record... This is a baptism record from 1836 861 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,295 for your great-grandmother, 862 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,535 and it tells us where the McGuinness part of your surname comes from. 863 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,255 Right, 0|<. 864 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,575 Parents, Mark McGuinness and Winifred Molloy. 865 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,575 My great great-grandparents. 866 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:02,975 Yes. Right. 867 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,775 Ancl this is where they've baptised their daughter, Bridget. 868 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,415 Oh, right, OK. 869 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,375 Parish of Kilmore Moy, Counties of Mayo and Sligo. 870 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,495 Mind blown. 871 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,055 Wow. 872 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,215 Bloody hell. Well, at least we have actually 873 00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:24,135 got now an Irish connection. 874 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,815 This church is actually in a town called Ballina in Mayo. 875 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,695 You know, I'm loving finding out about me family 876 00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:33,935 cos I knew nothing about any of them, 877 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,935 but the amount of times over the years, whenever I've been to Ireland 878 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,255 and people will say to me, "You know, where are you...?" 879 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,815 Ancl I felt so bloody ignorant, not knowing. 880 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,695 Yeah, it must be difficult being a man who's got Guinness in his name 881 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:48,175 not to be able to say where in Ireland that Guinness comes from. 882 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,735 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Mark McGuinness. 883 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,735 Winifred Molloy. 884 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,975 We know that's where Bridget was baptised, 885 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,135 but does that mean Mark and Winifred are from here? 886 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,695 Like, born there? I think you're going to have to 887 00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:04,055 go to Ireland to find out, to be honest. 888 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,775 Get us a first-class flight... 889 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,175 What do you mean they don't do first-class, the BBC?! 890 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,975 Paddy has finally found his Irish roots by tracing the McGuinness 891 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,415 family back over 200 years to his great great-grandparents, 892 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,175 Mark McGuinness and Winifred Molloy, 893 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,295 who baptised their daughter Bridget at a church in Ireland. 894 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,935 Paddy is following in his great great-grandparents footsteps 895 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,335 to their hometown of Ballina in the west of Ireland. 896 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,535 I've been to Belfast, I've been to Dublin, I've been to Kilkenny. 897 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,935 This is me first time here on the West Coast, 898 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,935 and a beautiful part of the world. 899 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,335 I definitely feel a connection to Ireland. 900 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,655 When people have asked me whereabouts me family are from, 901 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,775 I've just had no idea, so it's a treat, really. 902 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,775 I'm excited. 903 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,375 I'm not sure which McGuinness arrived first in Bolton, 904 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,255 to be honest, and that's going to be really interesting to find out. 905 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,655 And also, we might find out why they ended up in Bolton. 906 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,015 NOW... Ah! 907 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,895 Now, there you go. 908 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,775 The old family connection has its perks! 909 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,255 Ey up. Slainte. 910 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,095 Paddy's meeting social historian Judy Bolger to find out more 911 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,815 about the lives of his great great-grandparents. 912 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,855 Oh, Judy, this is my kind of morning! 913 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,935 Cup of team, scone, indoors, chatting. 914 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,415 So I know me great great-grandparents... 915 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,095 Yeah. ..Mark and Winifred... Yeah. 916 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,215 ...had a daughter, Bridget. Yeah. 917 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:13,935 She was born in Ballina, but that's all I know. 918 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,495 OK. Brilliant. Well, you might find out a bit more 919 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,775 from this document here. Right. 920 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,295 Let's have a look here. So, Register of Marriages. 921 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,015 Mark McGuinness, occupation... 922 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,455 Is that weaver? That is, yeah. Well clone. 923 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,775 Ancl Winifred Molloy, spinster. Yeah. 924 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,735 Residence, Ballina. Mm-hm. 925 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,135 This doesn't say this - I know it doesn't - 926 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,015 but that looks like it says, to me, "Anniversary watch". 927 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,295 But I know it's definitely not going to be that, Judy, is it? 928 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,215 No, it's definitely not that. No, no, it's "runaway match". 929 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:45,895 Runaway match? What's that? 930 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,375 What do you think? 931 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,695 Um... It feels to me like they've kind of... 932 00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:54,055 The romantic side of me, it sounds like they've sort of absconded 933 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,055 from somewhere and got married. 934 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,535 Yeah, yeah, which is very likely. 935 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,935 If you look at their two witnesses, it doesn't look like Winifred 936 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,775 had any of her family there to stand by her marriage. 937 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,135 Oh, right, OK. So it looks like it's a note from, 938 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,335 say, it would have been the priest, commenting on their marriage, 939 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,855 cos normally the maternal and paternal family would kind of 940 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,935 support the... Oh, right. OK. 941 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,215 If you look at some of the other comments in here, 942 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,095 it'll give you an idea about some of the other marriages. 943 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,535 Yeah, you can see "lived in..." 944 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:27,855 What's that? 945 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,815 Fornication. Fornication. 946 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,935 What a time to be alive, back then! 947 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,295 Yeah, for sure! Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right, so... 948 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,095 So this is the year they got married. 1823. 949 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,055 Ballina, getting married - what would life have been like then? 950 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,575 Well, we actually have an image here to give you a taste. 951 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,575 Oh, right, OK. Yeah. Give you an idea. 952 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,215 Let's just see what you think of that. 953 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,895 Ooh! Now, is this bridge this bit here, 954 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,015 or is it the other side? It's farther down. 955 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,895 So this bridge would be this one. Exactly. 956 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,535 Ancl this would have been slightly after they got married, 957 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,015 in the 1830s or 1840s, but it'll give you an idea, a flavour. 958 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:08,735 The cathedral was being built here. 959 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,255 If you see, it's missing some of the bits. Oh, yeah. 960 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,735 So Ireland at this point is very poor, very agricultural, 961 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,335 lots of little families living as tenants on big landlorded estates, 962 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,895 most of them labourers, whereas your great great-grandfather 963 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,375 was a weaver, so he would have been slightly more skilled 964 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,855 than the average labourer. Right, 0|<. 965 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,255 But he wouldn't have been living a luxurious life. 966 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,135 He would have been living kind of just above the poverty line. 967 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,335 Yeah. Cos I'm just wondering an' all, why did they go to England? 968 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,055 Why Bolton, in specific? And, um... 969 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,695 Ancl I don't know if, again, that's just purely a money thing 970 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:46,935 and what have you. ls there anything else you can tell me 971 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:48,695 about them, though? 972 00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:52,855 Yeah, we can find out about some of Mark and Winifred's children. 973 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,335 Let's have a look here. Sol can see... 974 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,415 "John McGuinness. Yeah. So he was born 1825. 975 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,495 Yep. Then, three years later, 976 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,375 1828, Bryan was born. 977 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,095 They lived in Garden Street. 978 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,175 Then Peter was born, 979 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,335 and then another two years after that, Michael was born. 980 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,135 It's like every two years, they must have gone, "Here we go." 981 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,615 Yeah, well, that was quite the norm at the time. Right. 982 00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,535 With breast-feeding and things like that, it was usually a two-year 983 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,855 cycle that women had children. Right. Yeah. 984 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,215 So we've got 1834, Mary was born. Yeah. 985 00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,135 Again, Garden Street. Could that have just been where they were born, 986 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:33,895 or was that where they were living? 987 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,855 No, 100% that could be where the actual birth took place. 988 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,735 That's quite possible, yeah. Right, 0|<. 989 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,615 Ancl then 1836 again, yeah, two years later, Bridget. 990 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,455 Bridget. Who's me...grandad's mum. 991 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,455 There you are, yeah. Right, OK. 992 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,375 It seems to me, back in the clay, big families - 993 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,175 I mean, really big families were the norm. Yeah. 994 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,895 This would be very typical to have two, four, six children, 995 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,335 and especially in that cycle of every two years. 996 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,015 That is amazing. 997 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,015 To see if he can find out 998 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,775 why the McGuinnesses left Ireland for Bolton, 999 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,455 Paddy's meeting local historian Terry Reilly. 1000 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,935 Hello, Terry. Hello, Paddy. Nice to meet you, sir. 1001 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,215 You're welcome. Are you OK? Welcome to Ballina. 1002 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:19,175 Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. 1003 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,095 Let's go inside. Let's get in there, yeah. 1004 00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,535 So, Terry, me two times great-grandparents, 1005 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:30,055 Mark and Winifred, we've traced them back to Garden Street. 1006 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,815 Can you tell me anything else about that? 1007 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,255 I can indeed, Paddy. And if you take a look at a map 1008 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,575 of that period when Winifred and Mark were here, 1009 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,655 the streets are still there. This is called Tone Street now. 1010 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,775 As you can see, not too many houses in Garden Street then. No. 1011 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,495 There were actually 12 pubs in Garden Street. 1012 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,455 This is my kind of town! Yeah, because the market square 1013 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,895 and the fairs and all that were here. Yeah. 1014 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,095 So it was quite a prosperous street. 1015 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,535 So me two times great-grandad... 1016 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,175 Well, I know he was a weaver. 1017 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,815 Would he have been working from his home at the time? 1018 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,935 He would have been working from his home. 1019 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:06,735 Ancl do you know who he had as a neighbour? 1020 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,375 He had a very famous neighbour - 1021 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,575 Edward Blewitt, the great great great-grandfather 1022 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,215 ofjoe Biden, the President of America. 1023 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:15,895 Really? So you're in big company there. 1024 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,615 Oh! 1025 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,815 This is... This just keeps getting better. 1026 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,295 Can you tell me anything else? What happened to him, 1027 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,655 you know, around this time or after? 1028 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,855 Well, we have a record of 1835, Paddy. 1029 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,335 You might have a look at that. Right, OK. Yeah. 1030 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,775 Decline in the linen trade. 1031 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,135 Mr Armstrong. "I have observed that the condition of the labourers 1032 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,655 "has been deteriorating for several years. 1033 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,015 "The decline of the linen trade has clone much 1034 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,295 "towards this deterioration. Great numbers of weavers 1035 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,255 "having abandoned their trade and become labourers." 1036 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,015 Yeah. They were out of work, really, at that stage. 1037 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:56,095 They were becoming out of work, so they had to go labouring. Right. 1038 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,215 Ancl the guys from the country were coming into the town, 1039 00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:02,975 and they were taking the jobs of these guys who are now labourers 1040 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,455 and driving the income down. Oh! 1041 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,055 Ireland was in a bit of a mess and people were leaving at this stage 1042 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:13,215 to go to England and go to America. This is before the famine, even. 1043 00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:15,135 Right. What have we got here, Terry? 1044 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,375 You've got the Census of Stockport, 1841. 1045 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:19,935 Oh, my God. 1046 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,775 So they've left here to go to Stockport. 1047 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,135 That's right. 1048 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,175 Some journey. 1049 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,135 Winney McGuinness. 1050 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:31,775 John McGuinness. 1051 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,575 Peter, another son. 1052 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:34,935 Bridget McGuinness. 1053 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:36,575 Mark McGuinness. 1054 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,175 Then, obviously, Bridget's my great-grandmother. Yeah. 1055 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,575 Clothes seller - we've got down there. 1056 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,495 Then we've got cotton spinners assistant, dyers assistant. 1057 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,415 So it's all... We're all staying on this kind of cotton... 1058 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,135 You're all still in the fabric business, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 1059 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,615 So I know the north of England 1060 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,695 has got strong connections to this kind of work, 1061 00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:03,975 but would that have been the reason to set off there? 1062 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,815 Yeah. They were looking for people in the weaving industry in the UK 1063 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,335 at that time, in England, so there was work there. 1064 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,415 Ancl these were skilled guys. Yeah. 1065 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,695 They would have carried with them addresses back home of their people 1066 00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:21,135 or their friends, and they would probably write to them and say, 1067 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,095 "Mark, there's a job here for you 1068 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,095 "because this business is buzzing over here." 1069 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,055 Yeah. 1070 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:32,015 Between 1815 and 1845, before the Potato Famine, 1071 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,295 around half a million economic migrants left Ireland 1072 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,415 to work in Britain. 1073 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,815 Many were drawn to the textile heartland of northern England. 1074 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,655 just to gather all your family together - 1075 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,735 all the kids are quite young, 1076 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,895 what processes would they have had to have gone through then? 1077 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,575 Well, having made the decision to move on and move out 1078 00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,775 and follow a better life, they would have had to sell up their looms, 1079 00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,215 you know, their weaving equipment, whatever they had, 1080 00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:01,855 and they probably would have to get their way from here to Dublin. 1081 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,575 But to get from here to Dublin was even a task. 1082 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,815 It probably took them 36 hours or something like that. 1083 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,335 Oh, my word! Yeah, yeah. 1084 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,655 Anyone who goes away with their kids now, 1085 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,335 knows how stressful that's going to be. Yes, exactly! 1086 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,655 But, God, in 1841, you can't even imagine 1087 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,095 what that journey was like. No, no. 1088 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,495 No, I know. Desperate. Desperate. My word! 1089 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,455 So they've clone this long journey, 1090 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:32,295 they've got to Stockport, and then do you know anything 1091 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:36,295 about how they've come from to go from Stockport to Bolton? 1092 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,455 I've got one last document for you. 1093 00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,295 I think you'll be interested in this one. 1094 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:42,735 Here we go. 1095 00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,455 The Census of Bolton. 1096 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,495 1851. Yes. 1097 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,535 Name and surname of each person who were boarding in the house 1098 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,655 on the night of 30th March, 1851. 1099 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,255 Ten years... Ten years after they... ..after they came over. 1100 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,615 So now they are firmly settled in Bolton. 1101 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,335 Ancl the rest is history, as they say. 1102 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,135 The rest is history. Yeah. 1103 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,535 This is how we came to sort of come from Ireland 1104 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,335 and finish up in Bolton. 1105 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,775 We've come full circle now. 1106 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,335 When you think back to how it was 1107 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:26,975 in those clays, to suddenly uproot yourself 1108 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,175 and your wife and all your children, your young children, 1109 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,455 and to go off to a country you don't know anything about 1110 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:36,775 and set up shop over there, 1111 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,735 you can't even fathom how difficult that would be. 1112 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,295 The thing for me, and I don't know if this is the same 1113 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,695 with other people who've been on here, 1114 00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:51,655 but, um...| do feel a real spiritual connection. 1115 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,575 You know, even on this beach today - it's absolutely beautiful 1116 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,175 here on the West Coast of Ireland - they could have been playing 1117 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,415 on here as kids, walking up and down it. You know, who knows? 1118 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,335 It's quite a romantic thought, 1119 00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,415 but I like it. 1120 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:07,975 It's just been one of them 1121 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,335 where there's so many lovely little surprises. 1122 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,655 You know, me grandad on me mum's side with the Spitfire connection. 1123 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,455 Me ancestors over here in Ballina 1124 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:22,135 who lived on the same street as Joe Biden's ancestors. 1125 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,575 I think the biggest highlight for me was actually 1126 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,175 seeing me grandad's war medal. 1127 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,615 That, for me, was a real moment where I felt like I was holding 1128 00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,175 a piece of history in me hand. 1129 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,815 Me clad would have loved finding out more about our Irish ancestors, 1130 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,335 and it'd have been nice to bring him out to Ballina and what have you, 1131 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,015 but I'll have a pint of the black stuff for him, 1132 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,535 don't you worry about that.