Hello.
Performance artist Kirsha Kaechele Hello.
Performance artist Kirsha Kaechele made headlines recently
when one of her projects, the Ladies Lounge,
faced an unsuccessful legal action for discrimination against men.
There are many ways to describe Kirsha -
bold, provocative, single-minded, unique.
She's also known as the wife of David Walsh,
the founder of Tasmania's acclaimed Museum of Old and New Art.
the founder of Tasmania's But who is the real Kirsha Kaechele?
WOMAN: I find myself in this role as 'Mrs MONA',
or 'the First Lady of MONA',
and very much as 'David Walsh's wife'.
And I have mixed feelings about it.
Oh, this is a good line.
On the one hand,
it's definitely highly irritating On the one hand,
it's definitely highly irritating and very anti-feminist,
it's definitely highly irritating and I don't like it.
But there's benefits, too, of having a powerful man in your life.
But there's benefits, too, of I find I get away with more.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER AND LAUGHTER) I find I get away with more.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER AND LAUGHTER)
MAN 1: Kirsha's a lot of things.
She's complicated and flawed, MAN 1: Kirsha's a lot of things.
She's complicated and flawed,
but she's always authentically herself.
but she's always Beautiful form. Beautiful poise.
WOMAN: Kirsha is both a curator and a performance artist.
WOMAN: Kirsha is both a curator She is creative without a boundary.
MAN 2: Three. Two. One.
MAN 3: She just looks at the world through a different lens.
She considers life as art,
that the world and everything in it
is a fascinating plaything.
Butlers! I think I see is a fascinating plaything.
Butlers! I think I see an empty glass.
WOMAN: Sometimes when you're at an artwork with her,
you're never quite sure if it's an artwork,
a protest, a fundraiser, or a party,
but it's usually all of them.
REPORTER: The artist behind the Ladies Lounge exhibition
at MONA in Tasmania
is being sued at MONA in Tasmania
is being sued for gender discrimination.
REPORTER 2: The trendy museum recently set up
REPORTER 2: The trendy museum a women-only Ladies Lounge,
but a male patron became upset
when he was denied entry.
KIRSHA: I want to ask when he was denied entry.
KIRSHA: I want to ask the difficult questions,
but I want to ask them playfully and lovingly.
but I want to ask them And I do want it to be fun,
because I think that makes it easier to investigate things
because I think that makes it easier and go into uncomfortable spaces.
MAN 1: She dares to be feminine and sexual
and to talk about those power dynamics.
That's very confronting to us, in all sorts of ways.
That's very confronting to us, It's confronting to men.
It's confronting to the art world.
We'll see how the men take it. It's confronting to the art world.
We'll see how the men take it. The men are a little hysterical.
We'll see how the men take it. But I have had to deal with these...
..yes, kind of serious art-world critics
who just tell me that I'm not an artist,
I'm not relevant, and I'm not making art.
So it's like, "OK."
But it gave me something to fight against
and to prove, I had to work harder.
So... Oh, yeah?
(MIMICS EXPLOSION)
(IMITATES GERMAN ACCENT) Tonight, on Australian Story
we meet artist and curator Kirsha Kakele.
Kirsha. Kirsha.
(REGULAR VOICE) The eyebrows are great.
To get someone like Kirsha to talk about herself, (REGULAR VOICE) The eyebrows are great.
To get someone like Kirsha to talk about herself,
To get someone like Kirsha um, is an interesting challenge.
(IN CHARACTER) Ha, ha, ha, ha!
Kirsha has a little bit of armour about herself,
Kirsha has a little bit of but also her life is her art,
so be prepared for some surprises.
Kirsha was loud when she should have been silent.
And she was bold where she should have been meek.
I'm not surprised she's an artist.
She'll find some interesting ways to tell her own story
that may not involve her normal clothes.
(AMERICAN STONER ACCENT) When I saw her in the...
This is her last reincarnation. (AMERICAN STONER ACCENT) When I saw her in the...
This is her last reincarnation.
And this lifetime is very special
because this time she's married to David Walsh.
I need a good name. Is Hans Richter a good name?
MAN: Hans Richter died in 1970... In the 1970s.
Do you want to give me a kiss? No.
(IN CHARACTER) I have wanted to kiss you for some time.
(IN CHARACTER) I have wanted to I would have been 15 when you died.
Please, sir, come.
Come here. (LAUGHTER)
Come here. Ha, ha, ha, ha!
She is never not in role-play
or part of a broader artwork.
She's kind of living the artwork.
She was a strange girl.
Hm. From a...
From a different family. They were different. Hm.
MULDOON: Her actual personal story is pretty exotic itself.
MULDOON: Her actual personal story Born in America.
Her dad is a scientist, and her mum's an artist.
WOMAN: By the time she was 17 months, I made play-dough.
And she sculpted every day from the time she was 17 months old.
And then I did paintings of her every day.
So she was totally immersed in art, continuously. And then I did paintings of her every day.
So she was totally immersed in art, continuously.
Our home was always an artwork.
So it's no surprise that Our home was always an artwork.
So it's no surprise that I do installation art.
It completely comes from the insane So it's no surprise that I do installation art.
It completely comes from the insane
and magical and very beautiful interiors that I grew up in.
And then she moves to Guam when she's five,
which is an incredibly remote island with a giant American military base
in the Pacific Ocean.
My father was super calm.
He was a scientist. Astrophysics.
He worked at RAND Corporation in the think tank.
They were the ones really strategizing
and designing the technology to take over the world.
On paper, you would think that my dad was in the CIA.
You know, why were we in Guam? Really? Why were we in Guam?
You know, why were we in Guam? That was such a strange choice.
But I really don't think he was.
This is what it looks like on the island of Guam.
This is what it looks like It's very beautiful.
She was in Guam from five years old to 17.
Going to Guam is the best thing that ever could have happened to her.
This was a totally different culture. Going to Guam is the best thing that ever could have happened to her.
This was a totally different culture.
There was a lot of suspicion towards white people, understandably.
I had to adapt. I had to learn how to connect with people
that saw me as different or saw me as an outsider.
This is wonderful preparation for life.
It allows her to have an insight, a real experience.
It allows her to have an insight, It made her very brave
and able to go out into the world...
..in a very unique way.
WOMAN: She lost her dad when she was 17,
and she came to the United States and was on her own. WOMAN: She lost her dad when she was 17,
and she came to the United States and was on her own.
The timing couldn't have been worse.
He died, and then she was getting on a plane two months later
He died, and then she was to go to college.
Oh, Lloyd. (LAUGHS)
Yeah, that was hard. I really loved my dad.
Alright. Yes, we are on Australian Story and I'm crying.
Alright. Yes, we are (LAUGHS)
Oh, God.
Yeah. So, yeah, I lost my dad really early,
and I haven't even cried about him in forever.
I think seeing someone you love die
changes your perspective I think seeing someone you love die
changes your perspective on your own life.
I thought, "This is it. We're only here for a short time.
I thought, "This is it. "We have to live our dream."
I was expecting her to become an architect
and have a PhD. I was expecting her to become an architect
and have a PhD.
You know, I really expected her to follow her dad's footsteps
because she was a candidate for that.
But she took off on these adventures.
As soon as I left,
it was just this explosive desire to see the world.
And I met, you know, rune readers, diviners,
you know, people who were doing spiritual healings on me.
And when it was time to go back to school, I decided not to.
I decided to continue the experiment.
SUNFEATHER: You know, when we met,
we just started travelling up the coast. SUNFEATHER: You know, when we met,
we just started travelling up the coast.
we just started We had a school bus.
And we didn't have a plan.
We just let spirit guide us.
This is a little bit embarrassing
because I do not operate this way now,
but a psychic woman told me that I needed to go to New Orleans.
but a psychic woman told me that So that's what happened.
(NEW ORLEANS-STYLE JAZZ PLAYS)
It took me no time to find where the artists live.
PULITZER: I think I met KK in 2003.
She had no money. And she was... PULITZER: I think I met KK in 2003.
She had no money. And she was...
..a working artist.
She chose to make her home and to create her art project
in a community within a very dangerous part of town,
and get to know people as people
and include them and bring them into the art world.
I actually had aspirations to open a museum.
I actually had aspirations And then Hurricane Katrina hit
and we lost the building as a result.
And instead, I became occupied with my house and the houses on my street,
which were now completely flooded and full of mud.
And so I went out and got a house paint sprayer
and tons of white paint.
But we just decided to paint everything white -
the house, the roof, the windows, the trees in front,
the house, the roof, the windows, the telephone pole.
And this is now an art space.
So then I invited an artist to come in and create a work.
She started utilising other derelict houses in that same block,
and she was working with international artists
and she was working with who she would bring in.
And each artist was sort of who she would bring in.
And each artist was sort of given their own house
And each artist was sort of to make an art project with.
I would say the work that's happened in this house
has been about kind of coming to peace
with return to the natural state of New Orleans.
The art writers came out
and suddenly there was a buzz and people were interested.
Instead of an object sitting in a neighbourhood as public art,
the neighbourhood became the public art.
She's recreating the entire floor of the house...
So it was a very rich experience that she created in this city,
something that no-one else had done, to my knowledge, previously.
It was difficult for some people in the neighbourhood.
But she opened the door for her neighbours to participate,
But she opened the door and there were some that wanted to,
and there may have been some who didn't want to.
I think that New Orleans nurtured her soul
in a way that she didn't expect it to.
And she ended up starting a school in New Orleans
And she ended up starting a school called the Material Institute,
to give back to the people that gave to her.
So there's that option. to give back to the people that gave to her.
So there's that option.
Or we can take one of these sticks.
She loves New Orleans. That's like a second home to her.
Um, anyway,
she went to an art festival in Switzerland and met David.
He had these thick glasses on.
He looked extremely intelligent.
And I was impressed.
(LAUGHS) I was like, "Who are you? You are so fascinating."
But then he got shy and left.
But one of his friends did his work
and came and invited me to dinner and...
and came and invited me And then that was that.
She was smitten.
You know, she had found somebody that was her intellectual equal,
and that was rare for her.
WOMAN: David's a Tassie boy from the northern suburbs.
WOMAN: David's a Tassie boy Didn't go to posh schools.
He made his fortune by being a mathematician,
creating systems and processes He made his fortune by being a mathematician,
creating systems and processes
that enable acquisition of wealth
through gambling, to begin with,
and then through through gambling, to begin with,
and then through collecting artworks.
And he's created MONA museum in Tasmania.
REPORTER: The Museum of Old and New Art
was described by its founder, David Walsh,
as a subversive adult Disneyland.
I can only be with a very powerful man.
I'm kind of not interested in the other ones.
You know, I need a big, strong man.
I need a man who's a little more powerful than me,
I need a man who's a little smarter, a little richer.
The power differential serves us at home
because I'm very traditional, in a way.
And I think I...I think I need that to feel feminine.
Maybe that's really wrong, but it's how I feel. And I think I...I think I need that to feel feminine.
Maybe that's really wrong, but it's how I feel.
It comes as absolutely no surprise to me whatsoever
that David will not be appearing in this show.
He hates talking about himself.
Television's not his bag.
The menu is a full page, right?
Menu, and then images...
MAN: When she arrived in Australia there was reporting early on
that she'd been involved in an art project in New Orleans
which involved some sort of property which she had control over, that she'd been involved in an art project in New Orleans
which involved some sort of property which she had control over,
which involved some sort of property over which some taxes were not paid.
I inherited the penalties, basically, to the previous owner.
But I had no means or intention of paying them.
I just wanted to use the houses for art.
PULITZER: She didn't really perhaps understand
what needed to be done with her properties
that she had in New Orleans, with her properties
that she had in New Orleans,
and maybe didn't tend to them
in the way that she could have or SHOULD have.
in the way that she could have And she got some slack.
Smaller versions of the images and the names...
Smaller versions of the images Now I land in Tasmania,
and I have all of these people Now I land in Tasmania,
and I have all of these people that I've never met
just looking at me like... and I have all of these people that I've never met
just looking at me like...
(GASPS) ..David Walsh's, you know,
dubious new tax-dodger wife.
That needs editing.
And I was inexperienced with negative press.
I just felt like my whole world was falling apart.
I just felt like It was terrible.
MAN: We need to start chopping the vegetables first.
Does everyone feel comfortable using knives?
(CHILDREN ASSENT)
We're in Material Institute in our new 24 Carrot Garden Cafe.
It's just a learning space where kids cook and serve food.
It was born out of my work in New Orleans.
It was born out of (CONTINUES INSTRUCTING)
It was a big thing to move to Tasmania.
But I was at a stage in my life
where my priority was to build a family.
where my priority I just really wanted to be a mother.
Now I have a husband and a daughter, and his daughters.
I knew it would be an enormous sacrifice
and would definitely interfere with my work.
and would definitely interfere And it absolutely has.
But I love it.
It's good for us. It's good for David and I.
We love her together. It's really beautiful.
So what I want you to do is take your lavender flower
So what I want you to do and pop it into the water...
PULITZER: I think that her becoming a mother
has made her more grounded
and more, dare I say, responsible.
OK, ready?
But actually OK, ready?
But actually more welcoming to the world,
because she's had to change her ways.
(LAUGHS) That's so refreshing.
Ugh! It got in my glasses.
For the past year, I've been the artistic director
of Bleach Festival on the Gold Coast.
We invited Kirsha to bring the Ladies Lounge up to Queensland.
The Gold Coast is a hotbed of masculinity,
and the beaches are full of raw muscle.
And of course, that makes the Ladies Lounge more exciting.
It's a big production.
There were times when I did call her and say,
"Look, we are so far over budget, can we maybe do something else?"
And, inevitably, I'd put the phone down "Look, we are so far over budget, can we maybe do something else?"
And, inevitably, I'd put the phone down
and I'd agreed to more things. I'd put the phone down
and I'd agreed to more things.
MAN: We're here today on behalf of all men,
to apologise for many centuries of pain, oppression and suffering.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
I'm definitely an aesthetic dictator.
I'm definitely Absolutely. I know when it's right.
There is an avenue for men to come Absolutely. I know when it's right.
There is an avenue for men to come in, but they come in as a butler.
There is an avenue for men to come I do probably count on my team.
They could get burnt-out
because when I get into the zone with the work,
because when I get into the zone I'm focused on it and I won't stop.
And with the left arm,
you're going to take the baby.
And don't drop the baby.
Kirsha is just uncompromising.
And it's very easy to call that person difficult to work with
or a diva or whatever,
but she is so singular in her focus and her vision
but she is so singular in her focus for what she wants to deliver.
Ladies, we have another graduate of the butler training programme!
And that's what good work costs. It's hard.
The Ladies Lounge originally came about
at the end of COVID when MONA was reopening. The Ladies Lounge originally came about
at the end of COVID when MONA was reopening.
Kirsha was going to get some tremendous art,
put it in a beautifully designed room
into which no men would be allowed except for butlers,
who she said would do what they were told.
For millennia, women have been excluded from spaces
For millennia, and women have been serving men.
It's really healthy to just exercise the opposite,
It's really healthy to just as a new perspective.
She wanted to get some Picasso's in there.
And so she painted some Picassos herself.
I was certain I would be discovered,
and I was excited about being splashed across the front page -
and I was excited about being you know, "Scandal! Art scandal!"
We even hung one of them upside down, deliberately,
We even hung one of them to, you know, be a tell.
There were all of these clues around the place.
And it just took so long before something official happened.
Hello. Welcome to the Ladies Lounge.
The Ladies Lounge Hello. Welcome to the Ladies Lounge.
The Ladies Lounge was just running smoothly.
It was just this nice, quiet place for women to bond.
It was just this nice, quiet place And men were being excluded daily
and having their experiences around that.
I think most men found it funny or interesting.
One man came along,
and he was from Sydney.
And he filed his formal complaint.
REPORTER: Jason Lau has taken the museum
to the Tasmanian Civil and Administrative Tribunal
alleging discrimination. to the Tasmanian Civil and Administrative Tribunal
alleging discrimination.
I was like, "Yes!
"Yes, this is going to be so good for the art!"
I was so excited.
I'm like, now the artwork is alive, now it's happening.
For Kirsha, it was a real moment,
to be able to show the artwork for what it really is
to be able to show the artwork and what it stands for.
The rejection of men
is a very central and important part of the artwork.
WOMAN: There was a cohort of Kirsha's friends and supporters.
WOMAN: There was a cohort As we headed towards the courtroom,
someone threw a strand of pearls around my necklace As we headed towards the courtroom,
someone threw a strand of pearls around my necklace
and we all had our navy suits on.
MULDOON: The performative aspects of that court case,
of walking that fine line between performance and contempt,
caught the media's attention in Australia and worldwide.
I asked my lawyer, I said, "Do you think you could try to lose?"
She said, "No, absolutely not." "Do you think you could try to lose?"
She said, "No, absolutely not."
And I was crossing my fingers -
please let us lose.
please let us lose, please let us lose.
And then the ruling arrived, please let us lose.
And then the ruling arrived,
and it was incredible!
It was a dream.
REPORTER: The tribunal has found the Ladies Lounge discriminatory
and has ordered MONA to allow men entry within 28 days.
She spun it into her web of performance and has ordered MONA to allow men entry within 28 days.
She spun it into her web of performance
and it became art.
It became theatre.
They say that...that the artwork has to be reformed,
but I fear it's beyond reform. I don't...
WOMAN: Kirsha?
Her response was fairly typical of Kirsha. WOMAN: Kirsha?
Her response was fairly typical of Kirsha.
She picked up the best of the art and stuck it in the women's toilets.
And then attention was drawn to the fact that
there were also fake Picasso's in there.
REPORTER: Tasmania's Museum of Old and New Art
has admitted displaying three fake Picasso paintings
for more than three years.
So now my husband, he's taking all of this heat,
and they're like, "Why is MONA showing fake art?"
They're going to lose all credibility.
I think she's the nightmare of the art world.
No-one takes her very seriously.
She's a fruitloop! Ha, ha.
She's a cuckoo!
REPORTER: The women fighting to exclude men from a lounge
at Hobart's MONA museum have had a legal victory today.
A Supreme Court judge has ruled the so-called Ladies Lounge
A Supreme Court judge has ruled can lawfully refuse to admit men.
The verdict demonstrates a simple truth -
women are better than men.
The Ladies Lounge and the court case really transformed Kirsha's profile.
She is famous now because of her work,
She is famous now not because she's Mrs Walsh.
They're Picasso!
Is it real? Yes!
No. No. Yes, they are.
Can I see the Picasso again? Because I...
Can I see the Picasso again? Only if you clean it.
I will clean it. But I want to see it again.
I'm really interested in the Ladies Lounge now,
I'm really interested in its next stage.
My artist's ego wants to be invited to the Venice Biennale.
I don't want it to break my way in,
like always.
It holds a lot of promise.
I think the Ladies Lounge could actually be a type of embassy,
a space for women to work on things like international peace accords.
ZAVROS: I think she's very aware of the power of art
and her performance and her ability to break a stalemate.
I'm fascinated by disputes,
and I'm fascinated by the possibility
of what people can find that they have in common and I'm fascinated by the possibility
of what people can find that they have in common
and ways in which they can move forward past entrenched positions.
MULDOON: When she first mentioned
that she wanted to do the Forest Economics Congress,
that she wanted to do with greenies and loggers,
I was actually surprised. with greenies and loggers,
I was actually surprised.
I thought it was pretty bold.
O'MALLEY: A huge range of people had been invited,
not just environmentalists and people in the industry.
It was scientists, it was ecologists,
people who look into forestry finance and economics.
I believe we need to actually just invite our opponents
I believe we need to actually to...literally to our parties.
We should get smashed with someone who doesn't agree with us
so we can actually hash it out.
I don't think people from the mainland understand
just how contentious forestry is in Tasmania.
There are people who came together at MONA
who have only ever seen each other
across picket lines or across lines in the forest.
(OPERATIC SINGING)
MAN: I had a slight fear that we were going to be a performer
MAN: I had a slight fear that in some grand performance art piece,
and it might be this huge, big "Ha, ha! Gotcha!" sort of thing. in some grand performance art piece,
and it might be this huge, big "Ha, ha! Gotcha!" sort of thing.
What is the value of a tree?
And moreover, what is the value of nature?
MAN: There was definitely some hostility and apprehension
from a lot of people because this was very new. MAN: There was definitely some hostility and apprehension
from a lot of people because this was very new.
A lot of people have been playing this game -
for want of a better term - in their silos for a long time.
We're here to listen and to connect as people,
beyond our personal ideologies.
I am not fearless. I am often completely terrified.
But there is a part of me that is enjoying it
and really takes delight in the situation as it unfolds,
and really takes delight even the hard parts.
(BAND PLAYS FANFARE)
KERRISON: MONA is a wicked place to hold an event like that
because it completely disarms everybody.
It was like an emotional roller-coaster for three days.
Big feelings, and then some weird art, you know?
And then more big discussions and some weird art.
I don't know why tequila diplomacy is so effective.
By the final night, late in the morning,
when the really radical performances were happening,
they may have already had a shot of tequila -
they may have already had at least some champagne -
and, yeah, the walls really came down.
It was really easy to then take the next step
and say let's all meet in a smaller group now
and say let's all meet and discuss this specific issue.
Was it a success?
I don't know if it achieved significant long-term goals.
It did facilitate a lot of discussion
between people who have never spoken with each other before.
STRONACH: I think there were some people that thought
STRONACH: I think there were it was a bit of a greenwash.
Some of the conservationists feel they're not being engaged,
since the congress.
I think there needs to be that dialogue with both sides
and continue to have those sides talking.
But, like, in a... say, in the dry forest...
Some people are afraid that I am too close to the loggers.
And some environmentalists have told me, you know,
"I just see you buying them drinks."
I'm like, "Well, everyone lobbies in their own way."
It's very difficult to compete in the Australian market...
It's very difficult to compete And I think that, because I do,
I'm able to actually have hard conversations
and say, "What does stand between us and best practice?"
You know, "What is...
"What can change?"
ZAVROS: Kirsha started talking about
this sit-in that she wanted to do on the beach -
women nude or topless, some months ago.
I was a bit worried when she first described it.
I thought, "I might get into trouble.
"What are the regulations around this?"
But, as always with Kirsha, she just figures it all out
But, as always with Kirsha, and it's all fine.
I'm the descendant of Germans,
who have absolutely no issues with nudity. (LAUGHS)
who have absolutely no issues And so I'm always taken aback
when I enter a culture And so I'm always taken aback
when I enter a culture that has shame around the body.
Someone said to me that
in the Gold Coast,
the women in the '70s and '80s used to really go topless.
And I thought, well, here I am on the Gold Coast.
And I thought, well, here I am We really need to bring this back.
If there is an issue and the police do come up,
I think that will spark a really interesting conversation.
I don't know, I'm getting older. (LAUGHS)
I think there's less and less opportunities
to do something a bit wild like this.
It just was joyful, actually.
You feel shy and then the inhibitions just drop away.
MULDOON: I suppose, with Kirsha,
the dance between the serious and the frivolous,
it's a bit of a tightrope, that one.
It'll be interesting to see how she balances those two things,
because something can be both.
TANNEN: It's not easy to embrace what Kirsha does.
TANNEN: It's not easy But I think if she continues
to develop the ideas that she is working with,
there will be a time when the 'art world', so to speak,
sees how important it is, what she is doing.
sees how important it is, ..three, and four.
I think she brings people into it, which...
I think she ..brings a whole new dynamic to art.
WOMAN: Art should be lived
and it should be something that is experiential.
Bring your body to the event, bring your whole self.
And also really challenges what our idea of art is.
And also really challenges Wow!
I myself am baffled,
you know, a good portion of the time where I'm like, "Is this art?"
you know, a good portion of the time You know, "Does this count for art?"
But it does tend to come around, and I realise, "Yes, this is art."
But it does tend to come around, I make life art.
Walking with all of those women on the beach,
this feeling that it's just us, it's our space,
it just took on this quality of a ritual.
And it was so transcendent and beautiful.
I just felt like, "Yes, this is the power of art."
We sang Ave Nanansuus, which is...
(LAUGHS)
(OUT OF CHARACTER) This one's gonna get me. OK.
(OUT OF CHARACTER) # Ave... #
(LAUGHS)
(OUT OF CHARACTER) Maybe everyone go. Just... You go away, Marissa.
(OUT OF CHARACTER) Maybe everyone go. # Ave... #
(LAUGHS) I saw you with that face!
# Ave Maria. #
Oh, thank you!
It's been such a pleasure to be on your show.
I am so excited to watch it!
Captions by Red Bee Media I am so excited to watch it!
Captions by Red Bee Media