1 00:00:00,900 --> 00:00:10,400 ♪♪ 2 00:00:26,733 --> 00:00:34,000 ♪♪ 3 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,200 -The show "Sensation" is sparking demonstrations 4 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,200 at the Brooklyn Museum of Art. 5 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,600 And the show hasn't even opened yet. 6 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,100 -Let's stop this nonsense now. 7 00:00:46,366 --> 00:00:49,700 -Pigs in formaldehyde and cows dissected 8 00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:53,800 and have their parts put out there. 9 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:55,500 -The Brooklyn Museum's controversial painting 10 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:57,800 of a Black Virgin Mary splattered with manure 11 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,566 is drawing more fire from city hall tonight. 12 00:01:00,566 --> 00:01:02,566 -This should happen in a psychiatric hospital, 13 00:01:02,566 --> 00:01:04,133 not in a museum. 14 00:01:05,433 --> 00:01:08,200 -It was an enormous exhibition. 15 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:12,966 It caused a bit of commotion. 16 00:01:12,966 --> 00:01:14,766 [ Indistinct shouting ] 17 00:01:14,766 --> 00:01:16,966 -They say it's art, they pass it off as art. 18 00:01:16,966 --> 00:01:18,466 I say this damn painting 19 00:01:18,466 --> 00:01:19,866 should be thrown the hell out of there. 20 00:01:19,866 --> 00:01:21,733 -I had death threats. 21 00:01:21,733 --> 00:01:24,433 Bomb threats. 22 00:01:24,433 --> 00:01:26,233 People attacked me on the street. 23 00:01:26,233 --> 00:01:28,533 I mean, I was an art museum director. 24 00:01:28,533 --> 00:01:30,200 -They seem to have no compunction 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,333 about throwing dung 26 00:01:31,333 --> 00:01:33,200 on important religious symbols. 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:34,366 I'm not going to have any compunction 28 00:01:34,366 --> 00:01:36,400 with trying to put them out of business. 29 00:01:39,100 --> 00:01:42,433 -Almost $35 million was going to be removed 30 00:01:42,433 --> 00:01:45,800 from the museum's funding. 31 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,266 All of our employees 32 00:01:47,266 --> 00:01:49,266 thought that they were going to be fired. 33 00:01:49,266 --> 00:01:53,266 -The language, the tone, the music of what the mayor 34 00:01:53,266 --> 00:01:59,100 is saying is the same as that of dictators. 35 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:01,733 -Floyd Abrams was on TV and radio 36 00:02:01,733 --> 00:02:03,866 saying that this was wrong. 37 00:02:03,866 --> 00:02:07,966 -This is a serious, profound First Amendment issue. 38 00:02:07,966 --> 00:02:11,400 It's sad to see good lawyers make such bad arguments. 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,766 -We made an appointment. We got to see him immediately. 40 00:02:14,766 --> 00:02:18,466 Floyd was going to take this on. 41 00:02:18,466 --> 00:02:22,000 This is, you know, clearly a First Amendment case. 42 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:28,566 And we exhaled for the first time for weeks. 43 00:02:28,566 --> 00:02:31,166 -I'll ask our attorney, Floyd Abrams, 44 00:02:31,166 --> 00:02:32,466 to take that question. 45 00:02:32,466 --> 00:02:34,700 -The spirit of the First Amendment, 46 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:37,066 as well as its letter, 47 00:02:37,066 --> 00:02:40,566 must permit this exhibition to go on 48 00:02:40,566 --> 00:02:44,400 and this museum not to be punished for doing so. 49 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:45,966 -During the months of legal wrangling 50 00:02:45,966 --> 00:02:48,300 over the controversial "Sensation" exhibition, 51 00:02:48,300 --> 00:02:51,000 the Brooklyn Museum fought back and won. 52 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,133 -The court said, and I'm paraphrasing here, 53 00:02:53,133 --> 00:02:54,433 "You're not making government weaker 54 00:02:54,433 --> 00:02:57,166 by forcing it to support unpopular speech. 55 00:02:57,166 --> 00:02:58,400 You're making it stronger 56 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,700 by forcing it to support the First Amendment." 57 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:05,933 -They may not decide on their own that 58 00:03:05,933 --> 00:03:08,066 because they don't like a picture 59 00:03:08,066 --> 00:03:10,100 or they don't like a book, 60 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:12,600 that the public doesn't get to see the picture 61 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,533 or doesn't get to see the book. 62 00:03:17,166 --> 00:03:19,733 -An overflow of art lovers, protesters 63 00:03:19,733 --> 00:03:22,900 and the curious streamed into the Brooklyn Museum today. 64 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:25,100 -In order to be able to discuss it either way, 65 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:28,166 I'd like to see it before, you know, 66 00:03:28,166 --> 00:03:31,900 fighting against it or fighting for it. 67 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:36,566 -The colors, the mosaic effect, the blending of the colors. 68 00:03:36,566 --> 00:03:38,200 Yes, it is beautiful. 69 00:03:40,233 --> 00:03:43,566 -I can't believe that this caused a commotion. 70 00:03:43,566 --> 00:03:46,300 -Floyd, you know, was our hero. 71 00:03:46,300 --> 00:04:00,400 ♪♪ 72 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:07,833 -Floyd Abrams is known as 73 00:04:07,833 --> 00:04:10,166 almost First Amendment embodiment. 74 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,600 When he takes a principled position on behalf of the press 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,000 or on the behalf of the publisher of a book, 76 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,033 he's taking a position on behalf of all of us 77 00:04:21,033 --> 00:04:24,133 who need to know what's in that book. 78 00:04:24,133 --> 00:04:27,733 ♪♪ 79 00:04:27,733 --> 00:04:30,833 -Everybody in journalism knows who Floyd Abrams is. 80 00:04:30,833 --> 00:04:32,833 You know, he's quite a lion in the field. 81 00:04:32,833 --> 00:04:34,833 -He's a legendary figure 82 00:04:34,833 --> 00:04:37,133 in the world of the First Amendment. 83 00:04:37,133 --> 00:04:40,800 And his legacy is tied to the First Amendment 84 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,700 that we have today. 85 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:46,166 Whether he deserves credit for that or blame for that 86 00:04:46,166 --> 00:04:48,633 I think is -- is an important question. 87 00:04:48,633 --> 00:04:50,566 Probably some of, you know, some of both. 88 00:04:50,566 --> 00:04:59,800 ♪♪ 89 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,500 -Sometimes I think of the First Amendment 90 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:05,166 almost as one of his clients, if you will. 91 00:05:05,166 --> 00:05:09,000 -The fundamental insight of Floyd 92 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,900 is that the American public has to be trusted 93 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:14,900 and that the government has to be distrusted. 94 00:05:16,633 --> 00:05:19,033 I think is the essence of the First Amendment 95 00:05:19,033 --> 00:05:20,433 so it's not saying anything new, 96 00:05:20,433 --> 00:05:23,300 he just powerfully articulated it. 97 00:05:26,966 --> 00:05:31,266 -If there were the history of defense of the First Amendment 98 00:05:31,266 --> 00:05:33,766 in modern times, 99 00:05:33,766 --> 00:05:36,966 there probably wouldn't be a chapter about Floyd Abrams. 100 00:05:36,966 --> 00:05:39,433 There'd be a -- It would be part one. 101 00:05:39,433 --> 00:05:40,866 [ Chuckles ] 102 00:05:42,633 --> 00:05:44,400 [ Keyboard clacking ] 103 00:06:03,133 --> 00:06:05,866 -I'm gonna be throwing away a lot of stuff. 104 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:18,133 We're moving to one of these glass places. 105 00:06:18,133 --> 00:06:20,633 Every office the same size, 106 00:06:20,633 --> 00:06:25,333 every -- the furniture the same in every office. 107 00:06:26,566 --> 00:06:31,333 Oh, here are earlier drafts of a book that I wrote, so... 108 00:06:32,833 --> 00:06:34,266 Ah. 109 00:06:34,266 --> 00:06:41,733 This is a newspaper clipping recalling July 9, 1936, 110 00:06:41,733 --> 00:06:44,066 which happened to be my birthday 111 00:06:44,066 --> 00:06:48,000 and was the hottest day in the history of New York City. 112 00:06:51,333 --> 00:06:53,300 These are the files, one of my favorite cases, 113 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:55,900 the Brooklyn Museum case. 114 00:07:00,333 --> 00:07:03,966 We worked so hard on these cases 115 00:07:03,966 --> 00:07:06,500 that you're throwing 116 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:08,900 a little bit of yourself away. 117 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:26,266 ♪♪ 118 00:07:26,266 --> 00:07:28,366 I went to Cornell. 119 00:07:28,366 --> 00:07:32,000 I started when I was 16. 120 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,800 I had a stuttering problem, 121 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,633 which was sometimes embarrassing. 122 00:07:38,633 --> 00:07:44,466 In college debating, the dangers were greater and more immediate. 123 00:07:44,466 --> 00:07:49,400 But stutterers learn ways to avoid problems. 124 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,766 It does lead you to be pretty good about synonyms, 125 00:07:54,766 --> 00:07:57,166 other articulations. 126 00:08:00,333 --> 00:08:06,666 When I was a junior, I became the head of our debating team. 127 00:08:06,666 --> 00:08:11,466 We were in a contest at McGill, 128 00:08:11,466 --> 00:08:17,166 and that night we were taken to dinner by the Canadian team. 129 00:08:17,166 --> 00:08:19,100 There were toasts. 130 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:21,466 And I remember I toasted the queen. 131 00:08:21,466 --> 00:08:23,566 [ Cheers and applause ] 132 00:08:23,566 --> 00:08:26,666 And the Canadian stood up and said, 133 00:08:26,666 --> 00:08:31,900 "To the American Constitution with all its amendments." 134 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,533 And I thought, "That's good." 135 00:08:37,366 --> 00:08:43,300 It's nice to think it, without a queen, without a king, 136 00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:49,000 they didn't speak about the president or the presidency 137 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,500 or our Supreme Court. 138 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:53,000 No, they spoke about the Constitution. 139 00:08:56,766 --> 00:09:01,833 This country came into being after a revolution. 140 00:09:01,833 --> 00:09:05,666 The leaders of the country 141 00:09:05,666 --> 00:09:11,333 had lived through limitations on speech. 142 00:09:11,333 --> 00:09:14,866 So when a written constitution 143 00:09:14,866 --> 00:09:18,600 and what became the Bill of Rights came into being, 144 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:24,200 there was great clarity that there could not be legislation 145 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,066 which limited freedom of speech and freedom of the press. 146 00:09:29,233 --> 00:09:30,866 -The First Amendment says 147 00:09:30,866 --> 00:09:34,200 Congress shall make no law. 148 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,166 Congress can be read as government, right. 149 00:09:36,166 --> 00:09:40,366 So it's about restricting the government's authority. 150 00:09:40,366 --> 00:09:41,833 The reason to protect free speech 151 00:09:41,833 --> 00:09:43,600 is because when we set up societies 152 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,866 and we give certain people power over others, 153 00:09:45,866 --> 00:09:48,100 we want to have limits on that power. 154 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:49,533 -There was concern 155 00:09:49,533 --> 00:09:53,266 that this newly empowered federal government 156 00:09:53,266 --> 00:10:00,766 could deprive its citizens of basic human rights 157 00:10:00,766 --> 00:10:04,266 that are articulated in the First Amendment. 158 00:10:04,266 --> 00:10:09,566 What that doesn't answer and what they did not answer then, 159 00:10:09,566 --> 00:10:13,600 is what is protected under the First Amendment. 160 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,333 -There are things that you're not allowed to say. 161 00:10:16,333 --> 00:10:18,133 Language that's harassing. 162 00:10:18,133 --> 00:10:20,566 True threats. Fighting words. 163 00:10:20,566 --> 00:10:22,966 -Perjury. Libel. 164 00:10:22,966 --> 00:10:26,900 Lots of situations where speech is not protected. 165 00:10:28,366 --> 00:10:31,066 But in general, we have a system 166 00:10:31,066 --> 00:10:38,100 which more broadly protects speech rather than narrowly. 167 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:40,100 It's not just aspirational. 168 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:41,833 It's law. 169 00:10:41,833 --> 00:10:43,966 And it's not poetry. 170 00:10:43,966 --> 00:10:45,633 It's law. 171 00:10:45,633 --> 00:10:50,600 It is there to be used, to be asserted, you know, 172 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,100 like the cross in front of the vampire 173 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:58,033 in circumstances in which... 174 00:10:58,033 --> 00:11:04,500 our government comes down unacceptably against us. 175 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:15,900 ♪♪ 176 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:20,166 At Cornell I was in ROTC military training. 177 00:11:20,166 --> 00:11:23,100 Graduated in uniform. 178 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:25,633 I spent six months at Fort Lee. 179 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:31,600 I did not have the most nation-saving position. 180 00:11:32,766 --> 00:11:36,500 I was in charge of a shoe repair unit. 181 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:39,966 And then I went to law school. 182 00:11:39,966 --> 00:11:51,666 ♪♪ 183 00:11:51,666 --> 00:11:54,433 These are the dormitories in which I lived 184 00:11:54,433 --> 00:11:57,633 for my three years as a law student. 185 00:11:57,633 --> 00:12:00,333 Yeah. 186 00:12:00,333 --> 00:12:01,733 I bet that tree was there. 187 00:12:01,733 --> 00:12:03,733 [ Chuckles ] 188 00:12:03,733 --> 00:12:05,333 Ah. 189 00:12:06,766 --> 00:12:08,500 After law school, 190 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:13,100 while I was clerking for a federal judge in Delaware, 191 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:15,566 I met my wife, Efrat. 192 00:12:15,566 --> 00:12:18,766 ♪♪ 193 00:12:18,766 --> 00:12:22,433 I remember taking her to a party. 194 00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:27,200 I had a good time at the party and I asked her, 195 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,766 "What did you think of it?" 196 00:12:29,766 --> 00:12:33,800 She said, "All you people do is talk -- 197 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,600 Kennedy and Nixon 198 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,066 and Kennedy and Nixon -- as if you know these people. 199 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,233 There was no dancing." 200 00:12:42,233 --> 00:12:49,200 ♪♪ 201 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,333 -One thing I love, my dad, when he used to say 202 00:12:52,333 --> 00:12:55,100 he liked the people in the smoking section. 203 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:58,766 He liked interesting people, fun people. 204 00:12:58,766 --> 00:13:01,233 And of course, it applied to my mom. 205 00:13:03,766 --> 00:13:06,633 He loved the fact that she just says what she thinks 206 00:13:06,633 --> 00:13:09,566 and, you know, said what she thought about everything. 207 00:13:09,566 --> 00:13:12,466 -My dad always respected 208 00:13:12,466 --> 00:13:14,733 her sort of common sense take 209 00:13:14,733 --> 00:13:16,033 on things. 210 00:13:16,033 --> 00:13:20,400 -She has tended to think that a lot of questions 211 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:26,533 can be answered a lot more easily than I have thought. 212 00:13:26,533 --> 00:13:29,533 Or to put it differently, that there was an answer. 213 00:13:29,533 --> 00:13:30,800 You ask a question, 214 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,300 you get an answer to the question, not an essay. 215 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:43,500 And that was really true from the time I met Efrat. 216 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:47,566 ♪♪ 217 00:13:47,566 --> 00:13:50,133 -My mother's older than my dad, 218 00:13:50,133 --> 00:13:55,300 and she was more cosmopolitan. 219 00:13:57,333 --> 00:14:03,033 I think my mother was very helpful in assuring him 220 00:14:03,033 --> 00:14:04,866 that he would succeed. 221 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:10,300 If it hadn't been for my mom, 222 00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:12,933 he would have stayed in Delaware. 223 00:14:12,933 --> 00:14:16,200 My mother insisted that she wouldn't marry him 224 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,400 if he stayed in Delaware. 225 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,133 And he moved, 226 00:14:20,133 --> 00:14:25,133 and he had a hard time finding a job as a Jew. 227 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,233 Cahill Gordon was one of the only major New York law firms 228 00:14:30,233 --> 00:14:32,833 at that time that accepted Jews. 229 00:14:32,833 --> 00:14:35,233 It was a very Catholic firm. 230 00:14:35,233 --> 00:14:36,733 Catholics and the Jews aligned 231 00:14:36,733 --> 00:14:39,166 in that way of being the outsiders. 232 00:14:41,666 --> 00:14:43,700 -The Cahill Gordon law firm 233 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:46,866 represented NBC for a number of years. 234 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:52,733 I came to meet reporters who I found charming, 235 00:14:52,733 --> 00:14:56,333 impressive, doing God's work. 236 00:14:56,333 --> 00:14:58,666 [ Indistinct conversations ] 237 00:14:58,666 --> 00:15:04,233 In 1968, the Democratic Convention in Chicago. 238 00:15:04,233 --> 00:15:06,466 There was violence on the streets. 239 00:15:06,466 --> 00:15:08,800 There were reporters being beaten up. 240 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,066 ♪♪ 241 00:15:13,066 --> 00:15:16,300 And then there were reporters being subpoenaed 242 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:18,566 to testify at trials. 243 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:23,100 It was really then 244 00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:25,600 that I started to get attached 245 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,666 to a notion of the First Amendment 246 00:15:29,666 --> 00:15:33,100 as being so central 247 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:35,333 to the protection of liberty. 248 00:15:37,366 --> 00:15:40,600 There was very little law at that time. 249 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,200 We were making up, in a sense, 250 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,733 First Amendment law as we went along. 251 00:15:51,333 --> 00:15:53,233 -You know, First Amendment as we know it today 252 00:15:53,233 --> 00:15:57,733 is relatively recent, only 100 years old. 253 00:15:57,733 --> 00:15:59,466 Most people think First Amendment 254 00:15:59,466 --> 00:16:02,900 beginning of the Constitution, yes, it was there, 255 00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:07,033 but no Supreme Court cases interpreting it until 1919. 256 00:16:07,033 --> 00:16:08,933 [ Film reel clicking ] 257 00:16:08,933 --> 00:16:12,133 -With the First World War and really the establishment 258 00:16:12,133 --> 00:16:14,300 of the First Amendment as we know it today, 259 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:15,766 the most important First Amendment cases 260 00:16:15,766 --> 00:16:17,766 were often national security cases -- 261 00:16:17,766 --> 00:16:20,566 a conflict between individuals' right to speak 262 00:16:20,566 --> 00:16:22,733 with national security justifications 263 00:16:22,733 --> 00:16:24,266 offered by the government. 264 00:16:24,266 --> 00:16:25,566 [ Film reel clicking ] 265 00:16:25,566 --> 00:16:27,000 -So only a hundred years. 266 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,833 And then in fact, it really only came together 267 00:16:30,833 --> 00:16:33,500 in the way that we understand it today 268 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:35,866 in the 1960s and '70s. 269 00:16:35,866 --> 00:16:38,733 -Freedom. Freedom. 270 00:16:38,733 --> 00:16:40,600 Freedom. 271 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,233 -The gains we've achieved in the civil rights movement 272 00:16:43,233 --> 00:16:45,800 we owe almost entirely to the First Amendment. 273 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,833 ♪♪ 274 00:16:47,833 --> 00:16:50,466 It was the ability to march, to speak, 275 00:16:50,466 --> 00:16:53,333 to engage in demonstrations. 276 00:16:53,333 --> 00:16:55,033 [ Horn honks ] 277 00:16:55,033 --> 00:16:58,133 ♪♪ 278 00:16:58,133 --> 00:16:59,666 -The Supreme Court, 279 00:16:59,666 --> 00:17:02,966 to the surprise of a lot of people, 280 00:17:02,966 --> 00:17:06,733 started saying that schoolchildren 281 00:17:06,733 --> 00:17:08,933 have First Amendment rights. 282 00:17:08,933 --> 00:17:11,933 A kid that went to school with a black armband 283 00:17:11,933 --> 00:17:16,133 protesting the war in Vietnam had a right to have it. 284 00:17:17,733 --> 00:17:20,466 -Some of the really important cases 285 00:17:20,466 --> 00:17:22,900 in which we sort of see the contemporary kind 286 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:25,766 of emergence of this conception of the First Amendment 287 00:17:25,766 --> 00:17:27,900 do critically involve the press. 288 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:29,166 -The great case was 289 00:17:29,166 --> 00:17:31,600 New York Times against Sullivan. 290 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,600 -Southern officeholders wanted to enforce Jim Crow laws 291 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,166 and wanted the Northern press to shut up about it. 292 00:17:38,166 --> 00:17:39,166 [ Indistinct shouting ] 293 00:17:39,166 --> 00:17:40,666 -In a supercharged atmosphere, 294 00:17:40,666 --> 00:17:44,500 the racial antagonism flared into violence. 295 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:46,800 -That's what these libel suits were designed to do, 296 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,000 burden the press and get  The New York Times 297 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,166 and CBS News and other news organizations 298 00:17:53,166 --> 00:17:56,100 to stop covering the civil rights movement. 299 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:57,600 And the court said, no, 300 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,666 we're going to change the rules around libel 301 00:18:00,666 --> 00:18:02,833 so that doesn't happen. 302 00:18:05,666 --> 00:18:06,733 [ Cheers and applause ] 303 00:18:06,733 --> 00:18:10,033 -It was a political refashioning. 304 00:18:10,033 --> 00:18:15,266 One of the most exciting periods in modern history. 305 00:18:15,266 --> 00:18:17,933 [ Indistinct shouting ] 306 00:18:17,933 --> 00:18:21,400 That's Floyd's beginning period. 307 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,633 -Those cases are part of what have given us 308 00:18:23,633 --> 00:18:26,266 the framework that we have today. 309 00:18:26,266 --> 00:18:29,300 But with respect to press freedom, 310 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,333 and particularly press freedom 311 00:18:32,333 --> 00:18:35,900 relating to the publication of national security secrets, 312 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:39,233 which is a huge part of press freedom, 313 00:18:39,233 --> 00:18:43,033 there's no case more important than the Pentagon Papers case. 314 00:18:47,833 --> 00:18:49,066 -This weekend, 315 00:18:49,066 --> 00:18:51,600 portions of a highly classified Pentagon document 316 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,666 came to light for all the world to see. 317 00:18:53,666 --> 00:18:55,966 The New York Timesbegan publishing parts 318 00:18:55,966 --> 00:18:59,000 of a voluminous report that the Pentagon had drawn up 319 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,300 on the causes and conduct of American involvement in Vietnam. 320 00:19:07,333 --> 00:19:10,700 -The Pentagon Papers were 7,000 pages 321 00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:14,600 commissioned by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, 322 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,100 addressing the question of how we got into 323 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:20,033 the then raging war in Vietnam. 324 00:19:21,233 --> 00:19:23,066 -There was real basis to believe 325 00:19:23,066 --> 00:19:24,966 that the government misrepresented, 326 00:19:24,966 --> 00:19:27,200 if not lied to the American people 327 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,533 over a long period of time regarding the war. 328 00:19:29,533 --> 00:19:35,366 ♪♪ 329 00:19:35,366 --> 00:19:38,166 -What theTimeshas done is placed itself above the law. 330 00:19:38,166 --> 00:19:40,000 They say it's our responsibility to print it. 331 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,166 Now God dammit you can't have that thing in a free country. 332 00:19:43,166 --> 00:19:44,733 Freedom of the press does not -- 333 00:19:44,733 --> 00:19:49,233 is not the freedom to destroy the integrity of the government. 334 00:19:49,233 --> 00:19:51,933 -The New York Times'lawyers at the time 335 00:19:51,933 --> 00:19:54,800 was a law firm named Lord Day & Lord, 336 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,066 and the managing partner was Herbert Brownell, 337 00:19:57,066 --> 00:19:58,466 who had been the attorney general 338 00:19:58,466 --> 00:20:00,866 for President Eisenhower in the '50s. 339 00:20:00,866 --> 00:20:02,033 [ Indistinct conversations ] 340 00:20:02,033 --> 00:20:04,500 WhenThe New York Times got the papers, 341 00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,766 the advice they got was that the patriotic thing 342 00:20:07,766 --> 00:20:10,700 forThe New York Timesto do was to turn the papers 343 00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,100 back to the government forthwith. 344 00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:16,833 -Their senior partner was quoted as having said, 345 00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:18,633 "I don't want to touch them. 346 00:20:18,633 --> 00:20:20,966 It's a violation of law." 347 00:20:20,966 --> 00:20:23,766 They told theTimes it was unpatriotic. 348 00:20:23,766 --> 00:20:25,266 They told theTimes, 349 00:20:25,266 --> 00:20:28,900 the publisher, Sulzberger, could go to jail. 350 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,600 They told Mr. Sulzberger 351 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,866 that his father wouldn't have run it. 352 00:20:32,866 --> 00:20:34,833 -This could backfire on theTimes. 353 00:20:34,833 --> 00:20:36,466 The main thing is to cast it 354 00:20:36,466 --> 00:20:38,800 in terms of doing something disloyal to the country. 355 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,933 -That's right. -This risks our men, you know. 356 00:20:41,933 --> 00:20:43,266 -Do you feel, Mr. Sulzberger, 357 00:20:43,266 --> 00:20:45,666 that the national security 358 00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:47,700 is endangered as charged by the administration? 359 00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:49,833 -I certainly do not. 360 00:20:49,833 --> 00:20:52,133 This was not a breach of the national security. 361 00:20:52,133 --> 00:20:54,100 We gave away no national secrets. 362 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,333 We didn't jeopardize any American soldiers 363 00:20:57,333 --> 00:20:58,500 or Marines overseas. 364 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,133 -When I interviewed Mr. Sulzberger, 365 00:21:01,133 --> 00:21:06,033 he held out his hands and said, "I'm ready to go if I have to." 366 00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:08,900 -The lawyers had urged them not to publish. 367 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:10,966 TheTimeswent ahead and published. 368 00:21:10,966 --> 00:21:13,666 TheTimescalled its lawyers. 369 00:21:13,666 --> 00:21:18,066 Their lawyers came over and said, "We won't represent you." 370 00:21:18,066 --> 00:21:22,566 And so theTimesfound themselves without a lawyer. 371 00:21:22,566 --> 00:21:23,800 [ Telephone rings, clicks ] 372 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,800 1:00 in the morning my phone rang 373 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,200 and it was the general counsel of theTimes,James Goodale, 374 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,100 who had already called a professor of mine 375 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:34,366 from Yale Law School, Professor Bickel, 376 00:21:34,366 --> 00:21:41,833 to ask him to lead a team in representing theTimes. 377 00:21:41,833 --> 00:21:47,433 And I was stunned. Stunned to get the call. 378 00:21:47,433 --> 00:21:49,366 [ Indistinct conversations ] 379 00:21:49,366 --> 00:21:52,300 ♪♪ 380 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:53,900 -I was a young reporter 381 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:57,400 working for the late greatNational Observer, 382 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,400 and they sent me to New York 383 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,933 to cover the temporary restraining order. 384 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,500 I remember being scared, really scared. 385 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:11,633 If the government could stop  The New York Times, 386 00:22:11,633 --> 00:22:14,333 the Gray Lady, the most important newspaper 387 00:22:14,333 --> 00:22:15,966 in the United States, 388 00:22:15,966 --> 00:22:18,766 at a time when newspapers were still king, 389 00:22:18,766 --> 00:22:22,066 that meant they could stop anybody from publishing 390 00:22:22,066 --> 00:22:24,666 for whatever they called national security. 391 00:22:24,666 --> 00:22:26,566 -Well, it's a prior restraint on publication. 392 00:22:26,566 --> 00:22:28,633 They're trying to tell us that we can't publish in advance 393 00:22:28,633 --> 00:22:30,600 of seeing what we are going to publish. 394 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,900 ♪♪ 395 00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:36,533 [ Horn honks in distance ] 396 00:22:36,533 --> 00:22:41,633 -The first thing I remember coming up these stairs then 397 00:22:41,633 --> 00:22:43,900 was I'm not going to know where the courtroom is. 398 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:46,133 Everyone's going to look to me. 399 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,533 And when we met with Judge Gurfein 400 00:22:49,533 --> 00:22:51,666 for the first time, 401 00:22:51,666 --> 00:22:53,733 he said in so many words, 402 00:22:53,733 --> 00:22:55,566 "I'm sure we're all patriotic here 403 00:22:55,566 --> 00:22:57,433 and we're all gonna try to do 404 00:22:57,433 --> 00:23:00,166 the right thing for the country." 405 00:23:00,166 --> 00:23:01,766 Which we took as very threatening. 406 00:23:01,766 --> 00:23:03,300 [ Laughs ] 407 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:05,866 -We've got a good judge on it, 408 00:23:05,866 --> 00:23:08,900 Murray Gurfein who was -- -Oh, yeah. 409 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:11,500 -He's new and he's appreciative, so... 410 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:12,800 -Good. 411 00:23:14,033 --> 00:23:17,166 -The trial judge, Murray Gurfein, 412 00:23:17,166 --> 00:23:18,700 had just been confirmed. 413 00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:21,933 He was an appointee of President Nixon. 414 00:23:21,933 --> 00:23:26,233 So here this judge on his first day as a judge, 415 00:23:26,233 --> 00:23:31,966 first case winds up with the Pentagon Papers case. 416 00:23:31,966 --> 00:23:34,733 -The judge asked  The New York Times 417 00:23:34,733 --> 00:23:39,166 if they would agree to a temporary restraining order. 418 00:23:39,166 --> 00:23:43,533 -TheTimes'answer was no. 419 00:23:43,533 --> 00:23:46,833 Barring the press even for a day 420 00:23:46,833 --> 00:23:52,100 is itself an egregious violation of the First Amendment. 421 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,500 -I think that aggravated the judge 422 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,333 and then within a short period of time, 423 00:23:56,333 --> 00:23:58,566 he granted the temporary restraining order. 424 00:23:58,566 --> 00:24:00,700 [ Bell ringing ] 425 00:24:02,033 --> 00:24:05,233 ♪♪ 426 00:24:10,133 --> 00:24:13,333 -No, I was busy. 427 00:24:13,333 --> 00:24:16,066 We had to prepare for the argument that I made, 428 00:24:16,066 --> 00:24:19,300 which was not to turn over the documents. 429 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:22,266 -Speaking for theTimes, attorney Floyd Abrams. 430 00:24:22,266 --> 00:24:24,100 "We are asserting," he said, "the rights 431 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:25,600 ofThe New York Times and the public 432 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,200 under the First Amendment." 433 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,900 -We were drafting our opposition, 434 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:32,966 interviewing witnesses, making a decision, 435 00:24:32,966 --> 00:24:35,133 should we call an expert witness. 436 00:24:36,333 --> 00:24:39,266 In the hearing in front of Judge Gurfein, 437 00:24:39,266 --> 00:24:41,400 an admiral testified 438 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,266 and another very high ranking military person, 439 00:24:45,266 --> 00:24:48,366 and it became clear that they really had no idea 440 00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:49,833 what's in the Pentagon Papers 441 00:24:49,833 --> 00:24:54,533 or how much harm, on what basis it could do. 442 00:24:54,533 --> 00:24:57,400 They just thought things ought to be quiet. 443 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,433 These are secrets. 444 00:24:58,433 --> 00:24:59,833 Why do you reveal secrets? 445 00:24:59,833 --> 00:25:01,933 It shouldn't be allowed. 446 00:25:01,933 --> 00:25:05,066 -It was well after 2:00 when Judge Murray Gurfein 447 00:25:05,066 --> 00:25:08,800 finally handed down the decision in favor of theTimes. 448 00:25:10,366 --> 00:25:13,433 -Judge Gurfein was a levelheaded 449 00:25:13,433 --> 00:25:17,333 and serious questioner of the government witnesses. 450 00:25:17,333 --> 00:25:20,700 -Judge Gurfein had come out strongly in favor 451 00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:22,833 of freedom of the press. 452 00:25:22,833 --> 00:25:25,833 "A cantankerous press," he said, "an obstinate press..." 453 00:25:25,833 --> 00:25:29,133 -"An obstinate press, a ubiquitous press 454 00:25:29,133 --> 00:25:32,566 must be suffered by those in authority 455 00:25:32,566 --> 00:25:33,800 in order to preserve 456 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,300 the even greater values of freedom of expression 457 00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:41,666 and the right of the people to know." 458 00:25:41,666 --> 00:25:48,300 I thought it was maybe the best statement 459 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:53,300 of the value of the First Amendment 460 00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:58,666 and its centrality to our legal system 461 00:25:58,666 --> 00:26:02,933 and the protection of the press. 462 00:26:05,866 --> 00:26:09,466 -The Justice Department then appealed Judge Gurfein's ruling, 463 00:26:09,466 --> 00:26:11,966 and it won another restraining order against theTimes 464 00:26:11,966 --> 00:26:14,800 until the appeal can be heard on Monday morning. 465 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,200 In all probability, it will go further than that -- 466 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,366 all the way to the Supreme Court by midweek or sooner. 467 00:26:20,366 --> 00:26:24,433 -If Judge Gurfein had written a sort of a narrow opinion, 468 00:26:24,433 --> 00:26:26,133 "You can publish most of what you want, 469 00:26:26,133 --> 00:26:28,533 but you can't publish this, this and that," 470 00:26:28,533 --> 00:26:31,633 it would have been harder to make sort of full throated 471 00:26:31,633 --> 00:26:35,366 First Amendment arguments in the Supreme Court. 472 00:26:38,233 --> 00:26:43,500 On the argument day we had written all we could, 473 00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:48,966 urged Bickel to focus more on this and less on that. 474 00:26:51,166 --> 00:26:52,933 -Prior restraints fall on speech 475 00:26:52,933 --> 00:26:56,366 with a special brutality and finality. 476 00:26:56,366 --> 00:26:59,133 If a criminal statute chills speech, 477 00:26:59,133 --> 00:27:01,700 a prior restraint freezes it. 478 00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:05,266 We believe that the only proper resolution of the case 479 00:27:05,266 --> 00:27:07,000 is the dismissal of the complaint. 480 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,000 -For two and a half weeks, 481 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,366 two constitutional principles have clashed, 482 00:27:13,366 --> 00:27:15,533 the government's view of our national security 483 00:27:15,533 --> 00:27:18,400 versus the newspaper's view of their freedom to print, 484 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,100 and the newspapers won. 485 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:21,800 [ Cheers and applause ] 486 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,500 ♪♪ 487 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,300 -When the vote came down 6 to 3, 488 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:33,000 streets across America erupted with applause and relief 489 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,033 that the press had won. 490 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,966 -People look back now today and say, 491 00:27:38,966 --> 00:27:40,966 well, obviously the Pentagon Papers 492 00:27:40,966 --> 00:27:42,466 should have been published. 493 00:27:42,466 --> 00:27:46,833 I think it's a very lucky thing that the Supreme Court upheld 494 00:27:46,833 --> 00:27:49,500 the right of a free press to publish. 495 00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:54,500 ♪♪ 496 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:56,333 -I mean, think of it again. 497 00:27:56,333 --> 00:27:58,066 A war. 498 00:27:58,066 --> 00:28:00,500 Prisoners of war held. 499 00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:04,200 Efforts at negotiations under way. 500 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,133 And the press comes along and publishes 501 00:28:07,133 --> 00:28:12,166 this secret, secret bunch of documents. 502 00:28:12,166 --> 00:28:17,433 We're really the only country prepared to take these risks. 503 00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:24,133 -This case has been and remains one of the key pillars 504 00:28:24,133 --> 00:28:26,500 of press freedom in the United States. 505 00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:27,566 Every day, you know, 506 00:28:27,566 --> 00:28:29,266 you can read government secrets 507 00:28:29,266 --> 00:28:31,600 in the pages ofThe New York Times 508 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,133 and every other major newspaper in the country. 509 00:28:35,133 --> 00:28:38,933 That's traceable to the Pentagon Papers. 510 00:28:38,933 --> 00:28:41,666 -I think the publication of those documents is long overdue. 511 00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:42,933 -Yeah, I just feel 512 00:28:42,933 --> 00:28:44,033 like everybody should know what's going on. 513 00:28:44,033 --> 00:28:45,433 And I don't like the idea 514 00:28:45,433 --> 00:28:47,500 of our government having all these secrets. 515 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:52,866 ♪♪ 516 00:28:52,866 --> 00:28:56,300 -I was in India in my 20s. 517 00:28:56,300 --> 00:29:00,933 A law school classmate of mine, Indian woman, 518 00:29:00,933 --> 00:29:03,866 took me to her fortune teller. 519 00:29:03,866 --> 00:29:08,066 And he announced that before I was 35... 520 00:29:08,066 --> 00:29:11,866 I would go to the country's capital 521 00:29:11,866 --> 00:29:15,733 and do something that would make me famous. 522 00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:21,900 The Pentagon Papers case began 523 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:26,733 when I was 34 years and 11 months 524 00:29:26,733 --> 00:29:31,100 and ended a week before my 35th birthday. 525 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:35,666 ♪♪ 526 00:29:35,666 --> 00:29:37,400 A libel case. 527 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,300 -CBS are being sued by Colonel Anthony Herbert 528 00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:43,466 for $45 million for libel. 529 00:29:43,466 --> 00:29:45,466 It's no exaggeration to characterize 530 00:29:45,466 --> 00:29:47,333 the "60 Minutes" case as the most significant 531 00:29:47,333 --> 00:29:48,733 free press case in years. 532 00:29:48,733 --> 00:29:50,100 -What we want to avoid 533 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:52,833 is any kind of system of law which allows 534 00:29:52,833 --> 00:29:55,233 "Why did you print that story instead of another story?" 535 00:29:55,233 --> 00:30:00,533 -The press was popular, rich, powerful -- 536 00:30:00,533 --> 00:30:03,166 investigative reporters like Woodward and Bernstein 537 00:30:03,166 --> 00:30:06,733 were heroes, and Floyd was representing them. 538 00:30:06,733 --> 00:30:09,766 -This is from the Nebraska Press Association case. 539 00:30:09,766 --> 00:30:11,233 -Attorney Floyd Abrams said 540 00:30:11,233 --> 00:30:13,000 the power to order prior restraint 541 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,633 is the power to destroy the media. 542 00:30:15,633 --> 00:30:17,433 -Floyd Abrams is nationally known 543 00:30:17,433 --> 00:30:21,166 as a defender of the freedom of the press rights in court. 544 00:30:21,166 --> 00:30:26,566 -There was a period of time in which I was the only, quote, 545 00:30:26,566 --> 00:30:29,266 First Amendment lawyer, unquote. 546 00:30:29,266 --> 00:30:32,466 I think those words had not existed 547 00:30:32,466 --> 00:30:35,133 before my stroke of good fortune. 548 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,733 ♪♪ 549 00:30:40,733 --> 00:30:41,733 -You know, Floyd was, 550 00:30:41,733 --> 00:30:43,100 in those days 551 00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:44,700 like a legal rock star, 552 00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,200 and people really flocked to him. 553 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,800 That's what you wanted to do. 554 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,833 You wanted to come out of law school, be a lawyer, 555 00:30:50,833 --> 00:30:52,566 you might want to be a First Amendment lawyer 556 00:30:52,566 --> 00:30:54,333 and work for Floyd Abrams. 557 00:30:54,333 --> 00:30:57,033 -I wouldn't be where I am professionally or otherwise, 558 00:30:57,033 --> 00:31:00,166 without the way that he mentored me 559 00:31:00,166 --> 00:31:03,766 and helped me think through things in a really big way, 560 00:31:03,766 --> 00:31:06,366 which he didn't have to do. 561 00:31:06,366 --> 00:31:10,300 -He was just sort of insatiably curious. 562 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,666 Genuinely interested in the other side 563 00:31:13,666 --> 00:31:15,400 of absolutely everything. 564 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,500 To the point, as an associate, 565 00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:18,033 it sometimes was, you know, too much. 566 00:31:18,033 --> 00:31:21,433 -There must have been 10 of us at Cahill 567 00:31:21,433 --> 00:31:22,866 who were in the same position as me, 568 00:31:22,866 --> 00:31:25,733 who worked for Floyd and then got jobs, 569 00:31:25,733 --> 00:31:29,233 in-house at various media companies. 570 00:31:29,233 --> 00:31:31,033 And we kind of went out there 571 00:31:31,033 --> 00:31:35,366 as the sons and daughters of Floyd. 572 00:31:35,366 --> 00:31:38,233 -Press law for a long time was evolving, 573 00:31:38,233 --> 00:31:43,233 and Floyd in particular was making new gains for the press. 574 00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:50,500 -I had a very major case in California, in San Francisco. 575 00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:52,766 -Can television be held accountable 576 00:31:52,766 --> 00:31:56,500 if the content of one of its shows is imitated in real life? 577 00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:00,900 -A girl had been attacked on a beach by three other girls 578 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:07,133 in a manner similar to what was shown the night before 579 00:32:07,133 --> 00:32:10,700 in a docu drama on NBC. 580 00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:14,766 And the mother of the girl was claiming 581 00:32:14,766 --> 00:32:21,266 NBC was responsible for the harm done to her daughter. 582 00:32:21,266 --> 00:32:22,766 Among the many briefs submitted 583 00:32:22,766 --> 00:32:25,300 on behalf of NBC in this case 584 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:29,500 was a very telling one from the American Library Association, 585 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:31,366 saying, in effect, "If NBC loses this case, 586 00:32:31,366 --> 00:32:32,700 we don't know what books we're going to be allowed 587 00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:34,533 to keep on our shelves." 588 00:32:34,533 --> 00:32:36,500 If somebody takes out a book and reads something 589 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:40,700 and supposedly gets some idea and goes and does something 590 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:42,433 and a lawyer takes the position that he did it 591 00:32:42,433 --> 00:32:44,933 because he read it, 592 00:32:44,933 --> 00:32:46,933 that there'll be a lot of problems. 593 00:32:46,933 --> 00:32:52,033 What I fear is that a loss in this case will necessarily lead 594 00:32:52,033 --> 00:32:53,800 to a kind of blandness, 595 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,400 a kind of avoidance of television 596 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,233 dealing with with hard and real and poignant social problems. 597 00:33:00,233 --> 00:33:02,033 So that raised one of 598 00:33:02,033 --> 00:33:05,600 these issues where if we win, life goes right on. 599 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,933 But if we lose, everything changes. 600 00:33:11,166 --> 00:33:14,766 -His greatest contributions really were in the area 601 00:33:14,766 --> 00:33:16,433 of making sure 602 00:33:16,433 --> 00:33:19,366 the press couldn't be stopped from publishing the truth 603 00:33:19,366 --> 00:33:22,000 and couldn't be punished for publishing the truth. 604 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,600 And those things, now wholly accepted, 605 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,466 were not well-established before Floyd Abrams hit the scene. 606 00:33:29,466 --> 00:33:31,566 -What has been missing from the public 607 00:33:31,566 --> 00:33:34,033 is what we came to court to seek. 608 00:33:34,033 --> 00:33:36,133 The right of the public not present in court 609 00:33:36,133 --> 00:33:39,900 to hear the tapes that everyone in court heard. 610 00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:42,366 -He brings the court in, 611 00:33:42,366 --> 00:33:44,300 talks to the court as a colleague. 612 00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:46,933 He does not overwhelm with drama. 613 00:33:46,933 --> 00:33:51,533 And it just gets laid out in a way that it seems obvious 614 00:33:51,533 --> 00:33:54,100 that his side should win. 615 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,233 -I thought about the situation of a lawyer 616 00:33:57,233 --> 00:34:01,833 arguing in the Supreme Court, of me, of anyone arguing. 617 00:34:03,466 --> 00:34:06,433 He or she is alone 618 00:34:06,433 --> 00:34:08,866 like a batter in baseball. 619 00:34:08,866 --> 00:34:13,300 One person by himself or herself 620 00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:15,933 facing nine... 621 00:34:15,933 --> 00:34:21,033 and even one of the nine can ruin your performance. 622 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,633 -To urge upon you today a ruling which would be 623 00:34:25,633 --> 00:34:29,133 unthinkable in any nation in the world except ours. 624 00:34:29,133 --> 00:34:31,900 That it is, in our view, entirely consistent 625 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,900 with American history, makes it no less remarkable, 626 00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:36,800 but simply points to the remarkable nature 627 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,700 of that history, for what we would ask of you 628 00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:44,166 is nothing less than a renunciation of power. 629 00:34:44,166 --> 00:34:46,800 -Your person, your judgment, 630 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,800 your wisdom benefits your argument. 631 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,733 People ask themselves, do they want to live 632 00:34:51,733 --> 00:34:54,433 in the world that you're arguing for? 633 00:34:54,433 --> 00:34:56,666 ♪♪ 634 00:34:56,666 --> 00:34:59,133 [ Airplane engines roaring ] 635 00:34:59,133 --> 00:35:02,766 -I was on an airplane flying to San Francisco 636 00:35:02,766 --> 00:35:07,633 with a number of cases terribly active. 637 00:35:09,166 --> 00:35:12,900 And tears came out of my eyes. 638 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:17,033 I didn't even think I was depressed. 639 00:35:17,033 --> 00:35:23,166 Just tears started coming as a response 640 00:35:23,166 --> 00:35:29,233 to the totality of the obligations I was under 641 00:35:29,233 --> 00:35:32,700 and the risks my clients were at. 642 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:38,533 It was -- You know, sometimes it could be really tough. 643 00:35:42,166 --> 00:35:45,766 This, one of my favorite things in my office. 644 00:35:46,966 --> 00:35:52,866 This is from my daughter to me when she was nine. 645 00:35:52,866 --> 00:35:56,466 "Love is more important than books and studies." 646 00:35:56,466 --> 00:35:58,000 -[ Laughs ] 647 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,266 -"Have a great Father's Day. 648 00:36:00,266 --> 00:36:02,433 Love." 649 00:36:02,433 --> 00:36:04,200 -He did work hard, and on weekends 650 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,300 sometimes we went with him to the office. 651 00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:08,700 You know, we'd play on the now old fashioned typewriters 652 00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:10,566 and get Mr. Softee, 653 00:36:10,566 --> 00:36:13,100 which I now realize he liked a lot more than we did. 654 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:15,500 -A lot of the time, 655 00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:17,633 the activity was 656 00:36:17,633 --> 00:36:19,766 going to the office. 657 00:36:19,766 --> 00:36:26,066 Dad working and us drawing or eating cookies. 658 00:36:26,066 --> 00:36:30,500 -We used to play soccer right here. 659 00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:35,266 That's a perfect Sunday thing to do. 660 00:36:39,366 --> 00:36:45,500 -He worked very often till 10:00, 11:00, midnight 661 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:47,066 on a regular basis. 662 00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:52,900 I remember the sound of the door closing when he would get home. 663 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:56,366 We'd get so excited that Dad was home. 664 00:36:56,366 --> 00:37:00,800 ♪♪ 665 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,000 -We didn't have fairy tales at my house. 666 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,233 We had cases that I would talk to them about 667 00:37:08,233 --> 00:37:12,166 and when I would go in to say good night to them, 668 00:37:12,166 --> 00:37:14,266 that's what it was. 669 00:37:14,266 --> 00:37:17,600 "What did you do today? You have any good cases?" 670 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,066 And all they wanted was for me to stay later. 671 00:37:21,066 --> 00:37:22,700 And I would. 672 00:37:25,066 --> 00:37:26,800 -My brother and I would try 673 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,633 and keep him in our rooms after bedtime. 674 00:37:30,633 --> 00:37:32,066 So when he was ready to go, 675 00:37:32,066 --> 00:37:34,066 we would then say, "Tell us about your cases." 676 00:37:34,066 --> 00:37:36,033 He would tell us about his cases. 677 00:37:36,033 --> 00:37:41,200 And they were suspenseful and sometimes moralistic, 678 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,400 and the law seemed noble and even romantic 679 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,466 and the lawyers were heroes. 680 00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:52,300 -Floyd was my lawyer in a time 681 00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:54,900 of great trial and tribulation. 682 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:56,866 -It was a bombshell that almost derailed 683 00:37:56,866 --> 00:38:00,100 Clarence Thomas' confirmation to the Supreme Court -- 684 00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,233 Anita Hill's charges that Thomas had sexually harassed her. 685 00:38:03,233 --> 00:38:05,800 Now, the reporter who broke that story is being asked 686 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,966 by a Senate committee where she got her information. 687 00:38:08,966 --> 00:38:11,466 You are willing to go to jail over this. 688 00:38:11,466 --> 00:38:14,766 What are the chances that it will come to that? 689 00:38:14,766 --> 00:38:17,733 -I have no idea. 690 00:38:17,733 --> 00:38:20,700 I like to think the chances are small. [ Chuckles ] 691 00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,433 And certainly I don't want to go to jail. 692 00:38:23,433 --> 00:38:25,533 And I'm no braver than the next reporter. 693 00:38:25,533 --> 00:38:28,066 But this really is a matter of the -- 694 00:38:28,066 --> 00:38:32,466 of an essential professional constitutional principle. 695 00:38:32,466 --> 00:38:35,100 And I am not going to reveal my source. 696 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:36,933 And if that means I have to go to prison 697 00:38:36,933 --> 00:38:38,966 then I have to go to prison. 698 00:38:38,966 --> 00:38:42,200 -It was the biggest scoop I ever had 699 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,633 and will ever have in all likelihood. 700 00:38:44,633 --> 00:38:49,833 ♪♪ 701 00:38:49,833 --> 00:38:52,033 [ Gavel pounding ] 702 00:38:52,033 --> 00:38:53,533 ♪♪ 703 00:38:53,533 --> 00:38:56,433 I was at a hearing of the Judiciary Committee 704 00:38:56,433 --> 00:38:58,733 to confirm Clarence Thomas. 705 00:38:58,733 --> 00:39:02,400 Joe Biden was talking about this confirmation 706 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,400 was not going to be about personal matters. 707 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,966 -Some have asked why we have not asked certain questions. 708 00:39:08,966 --> 00:39:11,266 -And there had been no discussion of personal matters. 709 00:39:11,266 --> 00:39:13,300 So I thought there, something was up, 710 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:14,566 but I had no idea what. 711 00:39:14,566 --> 00:39:17,433 ♪♪ 712 00:39:17,433 --> 00:39:19,533 Then I started kicking tires. 713 00:39:19,533 --> 00:39:23,700 And pretty soon I found out that this law professor, 714 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:27,633 Anita Hill, had made allegations of sexual harassment 715 00:39:27,633 --> 00:39:30,866 against Clarence Thomas, for whom she had worked. 716 00:39:31,966 --> 00:39:34,266 It ran on "Morning Edition." 717 00:39:34,266 --> 00:39:38,766 I think it was a Sunday morning. -X rated and extraordinary. 718 00:39:38,766 --> 00:39:41,066 Millions glued to their television sets 719 00:39:41,066 --> 00:39:43,800 as senators scrutinized the sexual harassment charges 720 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,133 against Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas. 721 00:39:46,133 --> 00:39:50,766 -The Anita Hill allegations disqualified Clarence Thomas 722 00:39:50,766 --> 00:39:53,933 as far as many of us were concerned. 723 00:39:53,933 --> 00:39:57,833 A number of us in the House walked over to his confirmation 724 00:39:57,833 --> 00:40:01,333 to oppose his appointment to the Supreme Court. 725 00:40:02,533 --> 00:40:05,466 -Thomas won confirmation despite the allegations, 726 00:40:05,466 --> 00:40:07,133 but the Senate still wants to know 727 00:40:07,133 --> 00:40:10,300 who leaked them to National Public Radio. 728 00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,066 -The way they were talking about me, 729 00:40:12,066 --> 00:40:13,300 as if I'd done something 730 00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,766 really wrong and criminal. 731 00:40:15,766 --> 00:40:19,066 And I remember going home that night 732 00:40:19,066 --> 00:40:21,233 and suddenly said to myself, 733 00:40:21,233 --> 00:40:23,100 they're going to subpoena me. 734 00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:24,900 They're going to investigate this, 735 00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:26,800 and they're going to subpoena me. 736 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,900 And I want Floyd Abrams as my lawyer. 737 00:40:33,333 --> 00:40:36,033 -I had represented years before 738 00:40:36,033 --> 00:40:39,066 aNew York Timesjournalist, Myron Farber, 739 00:40:39,066 --> 00:40:45,533 who was called to testify in a New Jersey case. 740 00:40:45,533 --> 00:40:49,400 He refused to reveal sources. 741 00:40:50,633 --> 00:40:54,733 It was a criminal case against doctors 742 00:40:54,733 --> 00:41:00,100 who were accused of essentially killing patients. 743 00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:02,500 And theTimeshad done big stories about it 744 00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:04,800 and had confidential sources. 745 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,266 Members of the New Jersey Supreme Court 746 00:41:08,266 --> 00:41:12,000 were asking me, almost disbelieving me, 747 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,000 "You're saying in a criminal case 748 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,633 that a journalist doesn't have to reveal information?" 749 00:41:18,633 --> 00:41:22,633 I said, "I don't have to reveal information 750 00:41:22,633 --> 00:41:24,433 and Idohave the information. 751 00:41:24,433 --> 00:41:28,766 You wouldn't call me, put me in jail. 752 00:41:28,766 --> 00:41:31,366 I have an attorney-client privilege, 753 00:41:31,366 --> 00:41:34,600 he has a journalist-source privilege." 754 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,866 And I thought it was a great argument, to no avail at all. 755 00:41:40,866 --> 00:41:45,400 And so he was jailed for some time. 756 00:41:49,766 --> 00:41:51,966 -The first thing he said to me was, 757 00:41:51,966 --> 00:41:55,433 "We don't have a legal leg to stand on." 758 00:41:55,433 --> 00:41:58,866 -That's not -- That's not the way I would say it. 759 00:42:01,433 --> 00:42:03,966 It's a long time ago, so... 760 00:42:07,666 --> 00:42:10,933 It's a tough case legally. 761 00:42:10,933 --> 00:42:14,300 -"So we have to have a different strategy. 762 00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:17,933 Our strategy is that you will do every interview 763 00:42:17,933 --> 00:42:19,133 you're asked to do." 764 00:42:19,133 --> 00:42:22,633 -NPR reporter Nina Totenberg broke the story. 765 00:42:22,633 --> 00:42:26,866 -The interview with Anita Hill was September 23rd. 766 00:42:26,866 --> 00:42:28,500 I was so scared. 767 00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:30,433 [ Chuckling ] I imagine that 768 00:42:30,433 --> 00:42:31,666 that's hard for people to believe. 769 00:42:31,666 --> 00:42:33,900 But I was so scared that I asked them 770 00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:36,366 if I could have my lawyer on set with me. 771 00:42:36,366 --> 00:42:39,400 -Floyd Abrams, counsel for National Public Radio. 772 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,033 -If journalists reveal their confidential sources, 773 00:42:42,033 --> 00:42:43,733 there won't be any confidential sources. 774 00:42:43,733 --> 00:42:47,033 And if that gets violated, the public just won't have 775 00:42:47,033 --> 00:42:50,166 the sort of information that all of us need. 776 00:42:52,733 --> 00:42:56,200 -Ultimately, I was called to testify and refused to testify. 777 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,900 I mean, I went in and I didn't answer the questions. 778 00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:04,300 -It looked very threatening. 779 00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:08,500 And then the senators decided 780 00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:15,000 that it wasn't worth the bad publicity for them. 781 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,533 -[ Chuckling ] It'll go to my grave with me. 782 00:43:17,533 --> 00:43:18,866 My husband doesn't know. 783 00:43:18,866 --> 00:43:21,933 Nobody knows who my sources were. 784 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,633 -The U.S. Supreme Court has never said, 785 00:43:29,633 --> 00:43:32,233 certainly not in so many words, 786 00:43:32,233 --> 00:43:34,066 that there is protection 787 00:43:34,066 --> 00:43:37,166 for confidential sources of journalists. 788 00:43:37,166 --> 00:43:43,100 So as a result, it has fallen to members of the press 789 00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:47,600 who gather this information, 790 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:54,100 I have to use the word bravely, and at great risk to themselves, 791 00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:58,100 to say, "I won't tell you how I got it." 792 00:43:58,100 --> 00:43:59,866 -Judith Miller, highly regarded journalist 793 00:43:59,866 --> 00:44:01,266 forThe New York Times, 794 00:44:01,266 --> 00:44:04,166 currently faces 18 months in jail 795 00:44:04,166 --> 00:44:07,900 for refusing a court order to testify about her contacts 796 00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:09,366 with confidential sources. 797 00:44:10,166 --> 00:44:11,700 -Judy Miller was a reporter, 798 00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:13,200 and in this particular case, 799 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:18,266 she was asked to testify in the prosecution of Scooter Libby, 800 00:44:18,266 --> 00:44:21,066 Cheney's chief aide. 801 00:44:21,066 --> 00:44:22,100 -If there is a leak 802 00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:23,200 out of my administration, 803 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,833 I want to know who it is. 804 00:44:25,833 --> 00:44:27,433 -Maybe the most significant clash 805 00:44:27,433 --> 00:44:30,500 between federal prosecutors and the press in 30 years. 806 00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:33,166 So, not surprisingly, Floyd Abrams is involved. 807 00:44:33,166 --> 00:44:40,733 -The particular leak that was at issue in this case 808 00:44:40,733 --> 00:44:45,766 was something that she had not written about, 809 00:44:45,766 --> 00:44:49,233 but which the government, the prosecutors, 810 00:44:49,233 --> 00:44:52,033 at least thought she might well, 811 00:44:52,033 --> 00:44:56,066 or indeed they were sure she must have information about. 812 00:44:56,066 --> 00:44:58,333 -They knew that I spoke to a lot of the people 813 00:44:58,333 --> 00:45:03,100 who would be the targets of such an investigation. 814 00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:05,933 Suspected leakers of information. 815 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,900 They wanted all of the notebooks for a period of months. 816 00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:14,033 They wanted all of my records. 817 00:45:14,033 --> 00:45:16,133 And that would expose not just Scooter Libby, 818 00:45:16,133 --> 00:45:20,133 but a great many potential sensitive sources. 819 00:45:20,133 --> 00:45:22,433 That I really didn't have much of a choice. 820 00:45:22,433 --> 00:45:26,800 I just had to do whatever I had to do to protect not just Libby, 821 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,600 but all of the sources, all of the people I had dealt with, 822 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,000 or I would never work in that town again. 823 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,266 [ Chuckles ] 824 00:45:34,266 --> 00:45:35,500 -Mr. Abrams, 825 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:37,766 what federal law is it that allows a reporter 826 00:45:37,766 --> 00:45:40,433 to withhold his testimony from a grand jury? 827 00:45:40,433 --> 00:45:42,366 -Well, it's called the First Amendment. 828 00:45:42,366 --> 00:45:46,000 Reporters have a right not to reveal their sources 829 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,166 because that's a part of newsgathering. 830 00:45:48,166 --> 00:45:51,000 -Right. That's the position you're staking. 831 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,066 Is that position settled law? 832 00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:59,800 -No, it is unsettled law, in fact. 833 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,266 -One of the first conversations Floyd and I ever had 834 00:46:03,266 --> 00:46:06,000 was about the need for a federal shield law. 835 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,400 Many states have shield laws to protect journalists 836 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,233 from being hauled up before grand juries 837 00:46:13,233 --> 00:46:14,833 and questioned about their sources. 838 00:46:14,833 --> 00:46:19,833 But unfortunately, national security is a federal issue. 839 00:46:19,833 --> 00:46:25,466 Our goal was to stretch the protection 840 00:46:25,466 --> 00:46:27,633 to try and advance it. 841 00:46:27,633 --> 00:46:31,366 -So when she was called to testify, 842 00:46:31,366 --> 00:46:33,933 she refused to do so. 843 00:46:33,933 --> 00:46:38,866 And we sought review by the U.S. Supreme Court. 844 00:46:38,866 --> 00:46:44,900 -Judith Miller in the aftermath of her flawed work 845 00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:46,966 in the run-up to the Iraq War 846 00:46:46,966 --> 00:46:49,766 had become a controversial figure. 847 00:46:49,766 --> 00:46:52,966 -She didn't have many allies, let's put it that way. 848 00:46:54,366 --> 00:46:57,066 And part of that was because of the way she had reported. 849 00:46:57,066 --> 00:46:59,833 -I had gotten a lot of criticism for my own reporting 850 00:46:59,833 --> 00:47:01,700 on weapons of mass destruction 851 00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:03,133 in Iraq. 852 00:47:05,666 --> 00:47:09,566 From 9/11 until the war began 853 00:47:09,566 --> 00:47:14,166 was one of the most fraught periods in American journalism. 854 00:47:14,166 --> 00:47:15,866 The pressure to produce at that point, 855 00:47:15,866 --> 00:47:18,900 to tell Americans what had happened to us and why. 856 00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:22,233 It was a period in which I wrote more stories 857 00:47:22,233 --> 00:47:24,966 than I had ever written before. 858 00:47:24,966 --> 00:47:27,400 Some of them were certainly 859 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,966 not as well-sourced as I would have liked. 860 00:47:34,866 --> 00:47:37,033 -Elements in the press 861 00:47:37,033 --> 00:47:38,633 are outdoing the Special Counsel 862 00:47:38,633 --> 00:47:41,933 by far in becoming mini prosecutors. 863 00:47:41,933 --> 00:47:44,800 There's a quite concentrated effort 864 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,566 to really, you know, bring down Judy. 865 00:47:47,566 --> 00:47:50,600 It was a case and probably the only one I had 866 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,066 involving confidential sources 867 00:47:53,066 --> 00:47:55,566 in which the journalistic community, 868 00:47:55,566 --> 00:47:57,566 or at least a good part of it, 869 00:47:57,566 --> 00:47:59,633 you know, was never really persuaded 870 00:47:59,633 --> 00:48:03,633 that they were sure they wanted us to win. 871 00:48:03,633 --> 00:48:09,300 -Nina's case, everybody on the liberal end of society 872 00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:11,666 would think it's easy 873 00:48:11,666 --> 00:48:15,533 and she should be able to protect her sources. 874 00:48:15,533 --> 00:48:19,833 Judith Miller, the source she was protecting 875 00:48:19,833 --> 00:48:22,566 was a member of the Bush administration, 876 00:48:22,566 --> 00:48:25,533 quite unpopular in liberal groups. 877 00:48:25,533 --> 00:48:29,766 So people may have flipped a little bit 878 00:48:29,766 --> 00:48:31,966 on which side they were on. 879 00:48:31,966 --> 00:48:35,433 [ Indistinct conversations ] 880 00:48:35,433 --> 00:48:39,533 -Judy Miller today joins a long train of journalists 881 00:48:39,533 --> 00:48:41,366 throughout our history 882 00:48:41,366 --> 00:48:45,000 who have insisted on protecting 883 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,366 the confidentiality of their sources. 884 00:48:47,366 --> 00:48:51,666 ♪♪ 885 00:48:51,666 --> 00:48:54,900 In a sense, I was... 886 00:48:54,900 --> 00:49:00,533 too stuffed with knowledge about the area, 887 00:49:00,533 --> 00:49:07,400 about the arguments, about the different positions. 888 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,600 -Floyd had a hostile court and a bad day. 889 00:49:11,333 --> 00:49:14,833 It was clear he was going to lose. 890 00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:18,833 -The New York Times the next day on page one -- 891 00:49:18,833 --> 00:49:21,500 I remember that -- 892 00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:23,933 referred to the fact that the judge had asked me 893 00:49:23,933 --> 00:49:27,266 the same questions five times. 894 00:49:28,866 --> 00:49:33,800 Now again, very hostile judge, made no difference. 895 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,433 But... 896 00:49:35,433 --> 00:49:37,533 certainly did to me. 897 00:49:37,533 --> 00:49:40,833 -You know, when you're representing individuals 898 00:49:40,833 --> 00:49:44,766 and there's so much at stake for them on a personal level, 899 00:49:44,766 --> 00:49:47,033 that's really hard. 900 00:49:47,033 --> 00:49:49,100 I remember that being hard for him. 901 00:49:52,933 --> 00:49:54,766 -We lost. 902 00:49:54,766 --> 00:49:56,966 [ Chuckles ] 903 00:49:56,966 --> 00:50:02,900 To this day, there is no sort of flat 904 00:50:02,900 --> 00:50:05,100 written-out protection 905 00:50:05,100 --> 00:50:09,400 for confidential sources of journalists. 906 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,733 And I think that that's -- that's a loss. 907 00:50:12,733 --> 00:50:14,966 I mean, not just that we lost the case, 908 00:50:14,966 --> 00:50:17,766 but a loss -- a loss to the public. 909 00:50:17,766 --> 00:50:27,100 ♪♪ 910 00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:33,566 All these files are Judy Miller files from one case. 911 00:50:33,566 --> 00:50:35,966 [ Files thud ] 912 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,933 [ Siren wails in distance ] 913 00:50:38,933 --> 00:50:40,066 [ Horn honks in distance ] 914 00:50:40,066 --> 00:50:42,033 This is a family picture. 915 00:50:42,033 --> 00:50:44,200 My mother and father. 916 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,533 This is my uncle, who I learned when I was 12 years old, 917 00:50:47,533 --> 00:50:50,733 was a Republican, I couldn't believe it. 918 00:50:50,733 --> 00:50:56,166 I had heard a labor union broadcast on the radio 919 00:50:56,166 --> 00:50:59,166 opposing the Taft-Hartley Labor Act. 920 00:50:59,166 --> 00:51:04,966 And my uncle, pleasantly enough, but authoritatively objected, 921 00:51:04,966 --> 00:51:07,533 started arguing, and this and that. 922 00:51:07,533 --> 00:51:10,933 And I said, "Uncle Barney, you sound like a Republican," 923 00:51:10,933 --> 00:51:14,100 as if -- and he was my first. [ Chuckles ] 924 00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:20,966 ♪♪ 925 00:51:20,966 --> 00:51:24,466 -Certainly in the '70s, Floyd was the name 926 00:51:24,466 --> 00:51:26,666 that would have come to me immediately 927 00:51:26,666 --> 00:51:29,800 when I thought of a advocate for the First Amendment. 928 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,800 -Well, Ted and I have always been on opposite sides 929 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,200 politically. 930 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,200 He's been connected with about every Republican administration 931 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,800 of which I disapproved through the years. 932 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:50,200 I think we found we had in common some views -- 933 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,366 on the First Amendment, for example. 934 00:51:53,966 --> 00:51:55,233 -Among my first clients 935 00:51:55,233 --> 00:51:57,500 were people in the outdoor advertising industry. 936 00:51:57,500 --> 00:51:59,800 Some people think of that as billboards. 937 00:52:00,833 --> 00:52:04,500 Some people felt that they were unattractive. 938 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:09,166 And cities started banning billboards or banning signs. 939 00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:12,666 We were representing the sign companies 940 00:52:12,666 --> 00:52:14,266 saying that you can't 941 00:52:14,266 --> 00:52:17,066 just ban signs altogether. 942 00:52:18,233 --> 00:52:21,966 And the Supreme Court agreed to hear that case. 943 00:52:21,966 --> 00:52:23,900 And I went to my clients and I said, 944 00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:25,500 you know, it's a First Amendment case, 945 00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:29,566 but people don't automatically associate billboards 946 00:52:29,566 --> 00:52:32,133 or outdoor advertising signs with the First Amendment. 947 00:52:32,133 --> 00:52:36,500 It will be helpful to your case if we had someone 948 00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:38,800 who immediately when they walked through the door, 949 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,066 the justices would say, 950 00:52:40,066 --> 00:52:43,233 "Oh, that must be a First Amendment case." 951 00:52:43,233 --> 00:52:45,433 Let's get Floyd Abrams. 952 00:52:46,666 --> 00:52:48,733 -I will never forget a justice 953 00:52:48,733 --> 00:52:51,866 of the California Supreme Court saying, 954 00:52:51,866 --> 00:52:54,333 "You want to put a billboard 955 00:52:54,333 --> 00:52:58,733 on every redwood in this state." 956 00:53:00,366 --> 00:53:04,866 And I said with all the dignity I could muster, 957 00:53:04,866 --> 00:53:08,566 [Chuckling] "No, I don't want to do that. 958 00:53:08,566 --> 00:53:11,466 My client doesn't want to do that." 959 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,966 We think downtown San Diego is a place 960 00:53:17,966 --> 00:53:21,833 where banning of all billboards is a banning of speech. 961 00:53:21,833 --> 00:53:24,266 I mean, bear in mind, billboards, 962 00:53:24,266 --> 00:53:30,033 while dominantly commercial, are also political. 963 00:53:30,033 --> 00:53:32,100 I mean, they're used for speech, 964 00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:35,000 whatever sort of speech people want. 965 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:42,400 We wanted to show them that the billboards in San Diego 966 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,033 were not just pure commercial speech, 967 00:53:46,033 --> 00:53:50,600 which gets less protection than political speech. 968 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,200 And so we sent a photographer out. 969 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,366 And here are the -- are the billboards. 970 00:53:58,366 --> 00:54:03,600 This was an ad by the police in San Diego 971 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,633 asking for more money. 972 00:54:05,633 --> 00:54:09,066 "Support America's first environmental strike. 973 00:54:09,066 --> 00:54:11,366 Don't buy Shell!" 974 00:54:11,366 --> 00:54:15,866 "Get them home." The P.O.W.s in Southeast Asia. 975 00:54:15,866 --> 00:54:21,366 They finally ruled by a very close vote in our favor. 976 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,633 The application of the First Amendment 977 00:54:27,633 --> 00:54:31,933 to a variety of actions, 978 00:54:31,933 --> 00:54:36,900 you could say, of corporate America or of businesses, 979 00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:38,600 makes sense to me 980 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,833 that it was protected by the First Amendment. 981 00:54:41,833 --> 00:54:44,033 That's very controversial. 982 00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:49,966 -The '70s were really the sort of turning point 983 00:54:49,966 --> 00:54:51,700 in the role of the corporation 984 00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:54,166 and the relationship between money and speech. 985 00:54:54,166 --> 00:54:58,000 -Commercial speech is not wholly outside the protection 986 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,366 of the 1st and 14th Amendments. 987 00:55:00,366 --> 00:55:02,266 -The Virginia pharmaceutical advertising case 988 00:55:02,266 --> 00:55:04,966 was about whether a state could limit corporations 989 00:55:04,966 --> 00:55:09,300 from advertising about the pharmaceutical products. 990 00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:12,333 And in that case, the court said, 991 00:55:12,333 --> 00:55:16,066 no, there are these corporate speech rights. 992 00:55:16,066 --> 00:55:19,566 And then '76 is also the year of Buckley versus Valeo. 993 00:55:19,566 --> 00:55:21,466 And that isn't a corporate speech case, 994 00:55:21,466 --> 00:55:23,233 but it is a money speech case. 995 00:55:23,233 --> 00:55:27,100 In Buckley, the right to spend money in an election 996 00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:29,133 was a free speech right. 997 00:55:30,266 --> 00:55:32,733 On the one hand, you see money is speech. 998 00:55:32,733 --> 00:55:34,000 And on the other hand, 999 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:39,633 you see corporations have free speech rights. 1000 00:55:39,633 --> 00:55:44,166 Each of those then grow and expand. 1001 00:55:44,166 --> 00:55:47,000 And there's basically a 30-year fight. 1002 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,900 The court goes back and forth and back and forth 1003 00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:53,333 on how to deal with money in politics. 1004 00:55:53,333 --> 00:55:58,500 And then in Citizens United, grant corporations 1005 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:02,666 the right to spend unlimited money in elections. 1006 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,066 -Today, the Supreme Court of Chief Justice John Roberts 1007 00:56:08,066 --> 00:56:10,266 declared that because corporations 1008 00:56:10,266 --> 00:56:12,000 had all the rights of people, 1009 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,433 any restrictions on how these corporate beings 1010 00:56:14,433 --> 00:56:16,566 spend their money on political advertising 1011 00:56:16,566 --> 00:56:18,066 are unconstitutional. 1012 00:56:18,066 --> 00:56:22,133 In the case Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 1013 00:56:22,133 --> 00:56:24,233 the lawyer is Floyd Abrams. 1014 00:56:24,233 --> 00:56:25,733 He will go down in the history books 1015 00:56:25,733 --> 00:56:28,666 as the Quisling of freedom of speech in this country. 1016 00:56:28,666 --> 00:56:32,366 -This is an extraordinarily triumphant day 1017 00:56:32,366 --> 00:56:34,533 for the First Amendment. 1018 00:56:34,533 --> 00:56:37,900 The court has ruled that corporations 1019 00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:41,266 may participate freely and openly 1020 00:56:41,266 --> 00:56:46,400 and spend money on electoral and political matters. 1021 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,533 -In short, there are now no checks 1022 00:56:48,533 --> 00:56:51,000 on the ability of corporations or unions 1023 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,533 or other giant aggregations of power to decide our elections. 1024 00:56:55,533 --> 00:56:57,566 None. 1025 00:56:57,566 --> 00:56:59,833 -Citizens United was about 1026 00:56:59,833 --> 00:57:02,866 a documentary about a political candidate 1027 00:57:02,866 --> 00:57:06,266 financed by a small nonprofit advocacy group. 1028 00:57:06,266 --> 00:57:08,566 Available only on video on demand. 1029 00:57:08,566 --> 00:57:10,933 [ Eagle cries ] 1030 00:57:10,933 --> 00:57:14,000 -Ruthless. Vindictive. 1031 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,500 -Liar is a good one. -Scares the hell out of me. 1032 00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:20,600 -A hit job on Hillary Clinton. 1033 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,466 That's what I thought it was. 1034 00:57:23,466 --> 00:57:28,466 And yet what is really at issue here 1035 00:57:28,466 --> 00:57:30,633 is something at the core of the First Amendment, 1036 00:57:30,633 --> 00:57:31,866 political speech. 1037 00:57:31,866 --> 00:57:35,066 I mean, there's no speech more important 1038 00:57:35,066 --> 00:57:40,366 to be independent of and not dependent on government. 1039 00:57:40,366 --> 00:57:43,800 -My client, Citizens United, had made a documentary 1040 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,766 about someone running for president, 1041 00:57:45,766 --> 00:57:47,133 for heaven's sakes. 1042 00:57:47,133 --> 00:57:50,300 Their position was people ought to be able to see 1043 00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:53,000 the issues about presidential candidates, 1044 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,166 it's a documentary, for heaven's sakes. 1045 00:57:55,166 --> 00:57:56,200 It was a felony. 1046 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,266 You could go to jail for five years 1047 00:57:58,266 --> 00:58:00,533 for violating those provisions. 1048 00:58:00,533 --> 00:58:03,333 And so we defended Citizens United. 1049 00:58:03,333 --> 00:58:05,500 Floyd Abrams appeared in that case 1050 00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:08,200 supporting the position that we were advocating. 1051 00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,100 -I represented Mitch McConnell, 1052 00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:14,933 not my favorite public servant. 1053 00:58:14,933 --> 00:58:20,133 -So let me turn first to Floyd Abrams. 1054 00:58:22,333 --> 00:58:25,166 -But I agreed with his views on this. 1055 00:58:26,233 --> 00:58:27,433 [ Clears throat ] 1056 00:58:27,433 --> 00:58:28,833 Thank you, Senator. 1057 00:58:28,833 --> 00:58:33,600 I'm delighted to be here in rather unaccustomed company. 1058 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,600 [ Laughter ] 1059 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,000 It's the oldest of clichés 1060 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,866 that politics makes strange bedfellows. 1061 00:58:41,866 --> 00:58:47,100 It is not at all strange that people who disagree politically 1062 00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:51,200 can come together in defending the First Amendment. 1063 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,433 Right away we're in the area 1064 00:58:53,433 --> 00:58:58,066 where there is the absolute most First Amendment protection. 1065 00:58:58,066 --> 00:59:03,066 Nothing is more important than speech about who to vote for. 1066 00:59:03,066 --> 00:59:06,500 And maybe nothing, nothing, nothing is more important 1067 00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:08,933 than who to vote for for president. 1068 00:59:08,933 --> 00:59:10,800 That was an easy case. 1069 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:17,200 That must be one in which the First Amendment carries the day. 1070 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,266 -I actually was at the Citizens United argument. 1071 00:59:21,266 --> 00:59:22,500 I was a young lawyer 1072 00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:24,100 in the Obama White House Counsel's office, 1073 00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:27,400 and the White House would often send lawyers to the court 1074 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,600 for kind of big, significant arguments. 1075 00:59:30,933 --> 00:59:34,266 Citizens United was initially a pretty narrow case. 1076 00:59:34,266 --> 00:59:36,833 It's actually not really about a ban on anything 1077 00:59:36,833 --> 00:59:38,433 but about just like a limitation on 1078 00:59:38,433 --> 00:59:41,466 when you could spend money and how you could spend money. 1079 00:59:41,466 --> 00:59:43,433 But then the court, when everyone was expecting, 1080 00:59:43,433 --> 00:59:46,133 you know, the case to be decided in June of 2009, 1081 00:59:46,133 --> 00:59:49,666 the court conspicuously set the case for re-argument, 1082 00:59:49,666 --> 00:59:52,900 reframing in much, much broader terms. 1083 00:59:54,033 --> 00:59:55,700 -Mr. Abrams. 1084 00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:56,800 -Mr. Chief Justice, 1085 00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,966 and may it please the Court, the first... 1086 00:59:59,966 --> 01:00:01,866 -He didn't go small. He went big. 1087 01:00:01,866 --> 01:00:04,433 He said, you know, this is an opportunity. 1088 01:00:04,433 --> 01:00:07,033 You could decide this case on narrow grounds. 1089 01:00:07,033 --> 01:00:08,433 And there's good arguments to be made 1090 01:00:08,433 --> 01:00:11,400 that the court should have decided in the narrow grounds. 1091 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:15,900 But, justices, you should please make a big, bold statement 1092 01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:18,200 saying that the First Amendment protects 1093 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,066 independent spending by corporations 1094 01:00:20,066 --> 01:00:22,433 in candidate elections. 1095 01:00:22,433 --> 01:00:25,100 -The First Amendment rights here transcend 1096 01:00:25,100 --> 01:00:28,066 that of Citizens United. 1097 01:00:28,066 --> 01:00:32,366 There is a blotch to public discourse 1098 01:00:32,366 --> 01:00:37,900 caused as a result of this congressional legislation. 1099 01:00:37,900 --> 01:00:41,366 -Last week, the Supreme Court reversed a century of law 1100 01:00:41,366 --> 01:00:43,633 that I believe will open the floodgates 1101 01:00:43,633 --> 01:00:44,933 for special interests. 1102 01:00:44,933 --> 01:00:47,600 To spend without limit in our elections. 1103 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,800 [ Applause ] 1104 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,366 -Money out. Voters in. Money out. 1105 01:00:53,366 --> 01:00:58,200 -Exxon or Microsoft could spend $1 million or $10 million 1106 01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:59,800 on ads against the candidate. 1107 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,333 And in the name of free speech, that you find that acceptable. 1108 01:01:03,333 --> 01:01:04,533 -Yeah, I'm okay with that 1109 01:01:04,533 --> 01:01:06,566 in the same way I'm okay with the fact 1110 01:01:06,566 --> 01:01:13,200 that CNN andThe New York Times can speak out as they choose to. 1111 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,400 -I object to the notion that a corporation 1112 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,500 is equal to an individual. 1113 01:01:17,500 --> 01:01:21,866 -The fact that we're suspicious of corporations sometimes 1114 01:01:21,866 --> 01:01:26,233 and of unions sometimes is just not a good reason 1115 01:01:26,233 --> 01:01:29,633 to say that they have to be silenced. 1116 01:01:29,633 --> 01:01:31,466 [ Indistinct shouting ] 1117 01:01:31,466 --> 01:01:35,766 -These campaign finance laws served these really central, 1118 01:01:35,766 --> 01:01:40,166 arguably in a democracy, sacred values 1119 01:01:40,166 --> 01:01:44,600 of allowing for responsive self-government. 1120 01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,633 Protecting against corruption. 1121 01:01:47,633 --> 01:01:52,033 I think that I'll call it the Floyd camp, 1122 01:01:52,033 --> 01:01:53,966 got it wrong, they got the First Amendment wrong. 1123 01:01:53,966 --> 01:01:56,933 It's not serving First Amendment ends 1124 01:01:56,933 --> 01:02:01,633 to call these kinds of corporate behaviors free speech. 1125 01:02:01,633 --> 01:02:06,033 -One thing that happens when you attach the First Amendment 1126 01:02:06,033 --> 01:02:08,300 to a new activity 1127 01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:09,900 is that you make it very difficult 1128 01:02:09,900 --> 01:02:12,566 for the government to regulate that activity. 1129 01:02:12,566 --> 01:02:15,066 Now, that is, you know, in some ways, the whole point, 1130 01:02:15,066 --> 01:02:16,466 that's the point of the First Amendment 1131 01:02:16,466 --> 01:02:18,300 is to make it difficult for the government 1132 01:02:18,300 --> 01:02:23,166 to regulate a certain category of activities. 1133 01:02:23,166 --> 01:02:25,566 But it's very important that you get that line right. 1134 01:02:25,566 --> 01:02:27,233 -In Citizens United, 1135 01:02:27,233 --> 01:02:29,166 the court rejected what's come to be known 1136 01:02:29,166 --> 01:02:31,366 as the anti-distortion argument. 1137 01:02:31,366 --> 01:02:33,500 It's the idea that someone who has 1138 01:02:33,500 --> 01:02:38,200 hundreds of millions of dollars to spend on politics can do that 1139 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,400 while the rest of us who don't have that 1140 01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:42,800 can't do that. 1141 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,000 That means we have a very unequal playing field. 1142 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:47,700 Money doesn't buy elections, 1143 01:02:47,700 --> 01:02:50,700 but spending money is like buying lottery tickets. 1144 01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:52,866 And the more money you have to spend, 1145 01:02:52,866 --> 01:02:54,466 the better chance you have of winning that lottery 1146 01:02:54,466 --> 01:02:56,366 and then being able to have outsized influence 1147 01:02:56,366 --> 01:02:57,500 over a candidate. 1148 01:02:57,500 --> 01:02:59,066 [ Indistinct shouting ] 1149 01:02:59,066 --> 01:03:01,100 -The argument against too much money 1150 01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:05,500 is that the speech that the money provides 1151 01:03:05,500 --> 01:03:08,866 becomes too overwhelming, it's not fair. 1152 01:03:08,866 --> 01:03:11,600 And my answer is it's still speech. 1153 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:16,800 Those arguments really used to be made about newspapers, 1154 01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,200 about the enormity of their power, 1155 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,933 about the wealth of the people that owned them, 1156 01:03:21,933 --> 01:03:25,900 about the impact on society of too few people 1157 01:03:25,900 --> 01:03:27,566 having too much power. 1158 01:03:27,566 --> 01:03:29,666 You know, the answer is taxation. 1159 01:03:29,666 --> 01:03:31,533 You want to take their money away, 1160 01:03:31,533 --> 01:03:35,200 deal with it in taxes, don't take the speech away. 1161 01:03:38,966 --> 01:03:43,866 To me, the notion that many of my friends have had 1162 01:03:43,866 --> 01:03:45,700 that corporations ought to have 1163 01:03:45,700 --> 01:03:48,666 less in the way of rights than individuals 1164 01:03:48,666 --> 01:03:50,300 is counter to all I've done 1165 01:03:50,300 --> 01:03:52,633 representing all my media clients, 1166 01:03:52,633 --> 01:03:55,033 most of which are corporations. 1167 01:03:56,533 --> 01:03:58,366 -It's commonplace 1168 01:03:58,366 --> 01:04:00,666 in American society and American law 1169 01:04:00,666 --> 01:04:03,866 for people who took one view of some legal principle 1170 01:04:03,866 --> 01:04:05,733 to all of a sudden take the opposite view of it, 1171 01:04:05,733 --> 01:04:10,533 because one side or the other would be helped by it. 1172 01:04:10,533 --> 01:04:12,733 And Floyd doesn't do that. 1173 01:04:12,733 --> 01:04:15,766 I mean, Citizens United is the most loathed case, 1174 01:04:15,766 --> 01:04:18,666 and not only by liberals, 1175 01:04:18,666 --> 01:04:20,366 and some of Floyd's other work 1176 01:04:20,366 --> 01:04:23,033 on behalf of businesses asserting First Amendment rights 1177 01:04:23,033 --> 01:04:25,333 also not super popular. 1178 01:04:25,333 --> 01:04:31,766 So where the Floyd Abrams I got to know in the 1980s was, 1179 01:04:31,766 --> 01:04:35,566 you know, a superstar lawyer on the side of good, 1180 01:04:35,566 --> 01:04:39,633 is now viewed by a lot of people 1181 01:04:39,633 --> 01:04:43,533 by dint of his consistency as, 1182 01:04:43,533 --> 01:04:45,633 you know, a problematic figure. 1183 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:56,366 -For better or worse, I am very comfortable 1184 01:04:56,366 --> 01:04:59,233 with the position that I took in it. 1185 01:04:59,233 --> 01:05:01,633 -Been a while. -I know -- it's been a while. 1186 01:05:01,633 --> 01:05:06,733 -It's been interesting to watch my dad go 1187 01:05:06,733 --> 01:05:11,800 from a First Amendment kind of hero 1188 01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:18,000 to people get angry at him now for taking positions 1189 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:23,233 which are not dissimilar to any positions he'd previously taken. 1190 01:05:23,233 --> 01:05:27,266 -Not long after Citizens United came down, 1191 01:05:27,266 --> 01:05:28,833 I appeared in front of the board 1192 01:05:28,833 --> 01:05:31,400 of the American Civil Liberties Union, 1193 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,600 which was basically on the same side as we were 1194 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:36,933 but was being overwhelmed 1195 01:05:36,933 --> 01:05:39,700 by internal criticism by their members. 1196 01:05:39,700 --> 01:05:44,800 It was a meeting to discuss whether they should criticize 1197 01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,366 the Supreme Court decision in Citizens United. 1198 01:05:48,366 --> 01:05:49,900 And I remember telling them, you know, 1199 01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:52,433 the Supreme Court will never forget you. 1200 01:05:52,433 --> 01:05:55,833 You'll be the only litigant who urged them to do something 1201 01:05:55,833 --> 01:05:59,900 and then denounced them because they did it. 1202 01:05:59,900 --> 01:06:02,766 I said you were in this case. 1203 01:06:02,766 --> 01:06:06,466 I mean, are you seriously thinking of denouncing them? 1204 01:06:06,466 --> 01:06:11,333 For validating the position that you were -- 1205 01:06:11,333 --> 01:06:14,300 We're talking weeks ago, months ago, 1206 01:06:14,300 --> 01:06:15,300 and they didn't do it. 1207 01:06:15,300 --> 01:06:17,533 But that was fun. 1208 01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,400 Look, it's, you know, it's fun to be in the battle 1209 01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:30,200 and, you know, without overdoing this, 1210 01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,633 but fun to be in the battle 1211 01:06:32,633 --> 01:06:35,733 if you think, especially as I do, 1212 01:06:35,733 --> 01:06:39,000 that the battle is on behalf of the First Amendment. 1213 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,333 [ Indistinct shouting ] 1214 01:06:41,333 --> 01:06:43,700 -When I was hired at the ACLU, 1215 01:06:43,700 --> 01:06:45,733 my predecessor, 1216 01:06:45,733 --> 01:06:49,300 she sort of wished me the best and said, 1217 01:06:49,300 --> 01:06:52,133 "If you ever figure out campaign finance [laughs] 1218 01:06:52,133 --> 01:06:54,066 you'll do better than all of us." 1219 01:06:54,066 --> 01:06:58,166 I'm deeply disturbed by the logic of Citizens United, 1220 01:06:58,166 --> 01:07:00,200 but I'm also humble about the fact 1221 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:01,633 that I don't have a great answer 1222 01:07:01,633 --> 01:07:04,666 for how to really square that circle. 1223 01:07:04,666 --> 01:07:09,566 -Faith in the power of the kind of pure principles 1224 01:07:09,566 --> 01:07:14,466 that the Constitution contains is incredibly inspiring. 1225 01:07:14,466 --> 01:07:17,333 And so I wouldn't want a world 1226 01:07:17,333 --> 01:07:19,466 where you don't have kind of absolutist 1227 01:07:19,466 --> 01:07:21,833 and purist views of things like the First Amendment, 1228 01:07:21,833 --> 01:07:24,366 which I think kind of stripped to its essence 1229 01:07:24,366 --> 01:07:26,966 is an extraordinarily powerful idea. 1230 01:07:26,966 --> 01:07:29,833 But to me, I think I just can't avoid the context. 1231 01:07:29,833 --> 01:07:31,033 And I actually think that it's important 1232 01:07:31,033 --> 01:07:33,033 that all of us attend to it. 1233 01:07:33,033 --> 01:07:34,333 -I certainly have a very positive view 1234 01:07:34,333 --> 01:07:35,800 of Floyd the person 1235 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:40,200 and a generally positive view of, 1236 01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:41,733 you know, his work. 1237 01:07:41,733 --> 01:07:45,866 But my feelings [Chuckling] about 1238 01:07:45,866 --> 01:07:49,233 the sort of expansionist understanding 1239 01:07:49,233 --> 01:07:51,366 or an expansive understanding of the First Amendment 1240 01:07:51,366 --> 01:07:52,733 have changed. 1241 01:07:52,733 --> 01:07:56,466 And since I associate Floyd with an effort 1242 01:07:56,466 --> 01:08:00,433 to really push the boundaries of the First Amendment, 1243 01:08:00,433 --> 01:08:03,600 my views of Floyd have become more -- more complicated. 1244 01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:10,933 ♪♪ 1245 01:08:12,533 --> 01:08:16,533 -My wife bought for me an original copy 1246 01:08:16,533 --> 01:08:18,300 of the French newspaper 1247 01:08:18,300 --> 01:08:23,100 in which Emile Zola wrote his classic 1248 01:08:23,100 --> 01:08:24,566 "J'accuse...!"-- 1249 01:08:24,566 --> 01:08:29,766 one of the best known defenses of free speech in our history. 1250 01:08:29,766 --> 01:08:36,666 ♪♪ 1251 01:08:40,966 --> 01:08:42,233 -Yeah, sure. 1252 01:08:42,233 --> 01:08:49,600 I mean, Efrat has Alzheimer's, and so... 1253 01:08:51,133 --> 01:08:58,200 She's glad to see me, recognizes me, talk a bit. 1254 01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:00,300 And the children, too. 1255 01:09:02,633 --> 01:09:04,600 -The one voice that you're not going to have, obviously, 1256 01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:05,900 is my mother. 1257 01:09:06,900 --> 01:09:10,766 My mother is not all there at this point. 1258 01:09:10,766 --> 01:09:12,500 And yet, you know, she'll occasionally 1259 01:09:12,500 --> 01:09:14,233 make a joke or something 1260 01:09:14,233 --> 01:09:18,966 and he still touches her face the way that he always has. 1261 01:09:18,966 --> 01:09:22,200 -She still has the same personality and will tease him. 1262 01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,433 And so I think -- 1263 01:09:25,433 --> 01:09:29,566 I think that's at least nice, but... 1264 01:09:29,566 --> 01:09:30,933 Yeah. 1265 01:09:30,933 --> 01:09:33,266 But, yeah, no, it's hard, of course. 1266 01:09:33,266 --> 01:09:38,366 -The saving grace is that it's not hard for her. 1267 01:09:39,966 --> 01:09:43,266 Not only no pain, but no pain at thinking back 1268 01:09:43,266 --> 01:09:45,666 at what you can't do anymore. 1269 01:09:50,366 --> 01:09:53,900 There are days when I don't go in to her room 1270 01:09:53,900 --> 01:09:58,166 because I really do have to get back to work. 1271 01:09:58,166 --> 01:10:03,833 Sounds silly, even hearing myself say it. 1272 01:10:03,833 --> 01:10:08,300 But no recriminations. I mean, just glad to see me. 1273 01:10:16,300 --> 01:10:17,633 [ Door opens ] 1274 01:10:17,633 --> 01:10:23,000 ♪♪ 1275 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,000 -Clearview AI is 1276 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:26,466 a groundbreaking facial 1277 01:10:26,466 --> 01:10:28,066 recognition technology 1278 01:10:28,066 --> 01:10:29,266 that scrapes 1279 01:10:29,266 --> 01:10:31,200 billions of images from social media 1280 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,000 and all across the Internet. 1281 01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,333 -When I got to theTimes, 1282 01:10:34,333 --> 01:10:37,700 I had started looking at face recognition. 1283 01:10:37,700 --> 01:10:40,333 People had put photos out there of themselves, 1284 01:10:40,333 --> 01:10:44,466 not realizing that one day it was going to help fuel 1285 01:10:44,466 --> 01:10:47,966 just a real advance in facial recognition algorithms. 1286 01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:52,366 An activist reached out to me and said, 1287 01:10:52,366 --> 01:10:54,933 "There's this one company that I've never heard of before 1288 01:10:54,933 --> 01:10:56,866 that's doing something pretty wild. 1289 01:10:56,866 --> 01:10:59,400 They say that they've scraped all the social media sites 1290 01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,800 and that they're using those photos to help identify anyone." 1291 01:11:03,766 --> 01:11:06,033 That was Clearview AI. 1292 01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,400 And Clearview had been selling the tool 1293 01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,266 to law enforcement for a while -- 1294 01:11:13,266 --> 01:11:15,733 for at least six months -- 1295 01:11:15,733 --> 01:11:17,966 and no one knew about it. 1296 01:11:18,733 --> 01:11:20,900 -I mean, I've got to say, it's slightly unnerving 1297 01:11:20,900 --> 01:11:23,000 seeing someone able to scroll through 1298 01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,200 so many images of my face. 1299 01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:30,133 -The first TV interview I did was on CBS and I blurted out, 1300 01:11:30,133 --> 01:11:32,066 "We have the First Amendment right to do this." 1301 01:11:32,066 --> 01:11:34,533 -You believe you have a First Amendment right... 1302 01:11:34,533 --> 01:11:36,033 -Completely. -...to access what's 1303 01:11:36,033 --> 01:11:37,333 on the platform? -Yes. 1304 01:11:37,333 --> 01:11:39,933 The way we have built our system is to only take 1305 01:11:39,933 --> 01:11:43,033 publicly available information and index it that way. 1306 01:11:43,033 --> 01:11:44,933 My instinct was like, it's public information. 1307 01:11:44,933 --> 01:11:47,200 People have that expectation. 1308 01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,700 So when things developed along, I was always trying 1309 01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:53,833 to find a lawyer who could encapsulate that idea. 1310 01:11:53,833 --> 01:11:54,966 Floyd ended up being the one 1311 01:11:54,966 --> 01:11:58,966 who really understood that at his core. 1312 01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:06,633 -We're talking about a direct clash 1313 01:12:06,633 --> 01:12:12,066 between privacy concepts and free speech concepts. 1314 01:12:12,066 --> 01:12:14,733 -It's actually allowed us to reframe the debate a lot. 1315 01:12:14,733 --> 01:12:16,500 Originally, a lot of it was a privacy case, 1316 01:12:16,500 --> 01:12:18,300 but more and more people are talking about it 1317 01:12:18,300 --> 01:12:20,000 as a First Amendment case. 1318 01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,166 -We first learned about Clearview as a company 1319 01:12:23,166 --> 01:12:25,433 I think at the same time that everyone in the public 1320 01:12:25,433 --> 01:12:28,000 basically did in Kashmir Hill's article, 1321 01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:30,666 which I believe was titled something like 1322 01:12:30,666 --> 01:12:34,266 "This Company May Destroy Privacy As We Know It." 1323 01:12:34,266 --> 01:12:37,633 We shared that reaction. 1324 01:12:37,633 --> 01:12:41,700 -Civil liberties advocates have sued Clearview, 1325 01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,300 arguing that the app, 1326 01:12:44,300 --> 01:12:47,500 and in particular the extraction of biometric data 1327 01:12:47,500 --> 01:12:49,166 from these photographs, 1328 01:12:49,166 --> 01:12:51,400 violates an Illinois state law. 1329 01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:53,800 -This law in Illinois says that you have to get 1330 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,000 someone's permission to use their biometrics. 1331 01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,033 Biometrics are measurements of the body, 1332 01:12:59,033 --> 01:13:03,800 like your fingerprint or the geometry of someone's face. 1333 01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,400 -I also think there are even broader questions at stake here, 1334 01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:09,966 which really are about whether or not 1335 01:13:09,966 --> 01:13:12,033 we can have privacy and free speech, too. 1336 01:13:12,033 --> 01:13:13,700 And I think we have to live in a society 1337 01:13:13,700 --> 01:13:15,666 where the answer to that is yes. 1338 01:13:15,666 --> 01:13:17,033 -Many people will be reluctant 1339 01:13:17,033 --> 01:13:18,833 to go to political demonstrations, 1340 01:13:18,833 --> 01:13:20,400 to participate in political rallies 1341 01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:22,933 if they think that the police can and will 1342 01:13:22,933 --> 01:13:25,500 scan the faces of everybody who's there, 1343 01:13:25,500 --> 01:13:27,466 identify who they are. 1344 01:13:27,466 --> 01:13:31,466 That kind of surveillance will have a real chilling effect. 1345 01:13:31,466 --> 01:13:36,333 Individual privacy is necessary to protect all of the freedoms 1346 01:13:36,333 --> 01:13:39,033 we wanted the First Amendment to protect. 1347 01:13:39,033 --> 01:13:42,366 But Clearview is arguing, with the help of sophisticated 1348 01:13:42,366 --> 01:13:44,333 First Amendment lawyers like Floyd, 1349 01:13:44,333 --> 01:13:47,366 that this activity is protected by the First Amendment. 1350 01:13:47,366 --> 01:13:49,500 -The Supreme Court had said 1351 01:13:49,500 --> 01:13:52,033 that the collection and dissemination of information 1352 01:13:52,033 --> 01:13:55,600 is protected by the First Amendment. 1353 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,633 And I think that's -- that's correct. 1354 01:13:58,633 --> 01:13:59,966 -There is a case where 1355 01:13:59,966 --> 01:14:02,533 somebody tried to sue Google. 1356 01:14:02,533 --> 01:14:03,866 They said, 1357 01:14:03,866 --> 01:14:05,166 "People searched Google, 1358 01:14:05,166 --> 01:14:07,100 and up came this negative story about me, 1359 01:14:07,100 --> 01:14:08,400 and I'm suing you 1360 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,300 because I want you to take it off of the Internet, 1361 01:14:11,300 --> 01:14:14,033 it's not really fair." 1362 01:14:14,033 --> 01:14:15,633 They lost that case, right. 1363 01:14:15,633 --> 01:14:18,833 Clearview is a search engine for faces. 1364 01:14:18,833 --> 01:14:23,600 They are using this technology to allow people 1365 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:29,000 to more efficiently identify, in this case, 1366 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:34,466 criminals or even children who've been abducted. 1367 01:14:34,466 --> 01:14:38,666 Preventing that efficiency in that speech 1368 01:14:38,666 --> 01:14:40,566 would cause real harm. 1369 01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:50,700 -Impairing, if not destroying, the ability 1370 01:14:50,700 --> 01:14:58,600 to compare one photograph with three billion others 1371 01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:03,100 is a genuine threat to First Amendment interests 1372 01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:06,366 and to the even broader notion 1373 01:15:06,366 --> 01:15:11,700 that truthful information is essentially sacrosanct. 1374 01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:17,433 It is too easy to sort of yield 1375 01:15:17,433 --> 01:15:22,000 to the siren call of privacy 1376 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:27,433 and to start limiting the dissemination of information, 1377 01:15:27,433 --> 01:15:31,400 which by its nature is public. 1378 01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,200 -The technology often seems to be setting the pace 1379 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:36,833 rather than the law. 1380 01:15:36,833 --> 01:15:39,133 I always think about the TSA body scanners 1381 01:15:39,133 --> 01:15:41,600 that were introduced after September 11th 1382 01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:44,066 to try to make air travel safer. 1383 01:15:45,100 --> 01:15:47,133 When they first introduced these scanners, 1384 01:15:47,133 --> 01:15:50,966 privacy activists were outraged, they hated them, 1385 01:15:50,966 --> 01:15:52,700 they started all this litigation to say 1386 01:15:52,700 --> 01:15:55,266 this is an unconstitutional search. 1387 01:15:55,266 --> 01:15:56,700 [ Indistinct conversations ] 1388 01:15:56,700 --> 01:15:58,466 It took so long for the litigation 1389 01:15:58,466 --> 01:16:00,266 to make its way through the courts 1390 01:16:00,266 --> 01:16:01,733 that by the time they did, 1391 01:16:01,733 --> 01:16:05,100 the judges basically said this is not an unreasonable search. 1392 01:16:05,100 --> 01:16:07,633 People go through this every day when they go to the airport. 1393 01:16:09,866 --> 01:16:13,266 A new technology comes, it's shocking to us 1394 01:16:13,266 --> 01:16:16,300 and then we get used to it. 1395 01:16:16,300 --> 01:16:19,333 And I kind of expect facial recognition to be that way. 1396 01:16:19,333 --> 01:16:21,900 I think in 5 or 10 years we're all going to have 1397 01:16:21,900 --> 01:16:25,200 a Clearview AI-type app on our phone. 1398 01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:31,266 -The pace at which technology is improving 1399 01:16:31,266 --> 01:16:34,633 requires us as a people to, 1400 01:16:34,633 --> 01:16:40,233 you know, keep looking carefully at striking a balance -- 1401 01:16:40,233 --> 01:16:42,566 a proper, a reasonable balance. 1402 01:16:42,566 --> 01:16:45,833 ♪♪ 1403 01:16:45,833 --> 01:16:49,766 Think back to when not many years ago 1404 01:16:49,766 --> 01:16:52,633 social media started to blossom. 1405 01:16:55,266 --> 01:16:58,766 First Amendment types couldn't have imagined 1406 01:16:58,766 --> 01:17:01,100 such a great thing. 1407 01:17:01,100 --> 01:17:03,433 What could be better than having speech, 1408 01:17:03,433 --> 01:17:05,400 which doesn't cost anything 1409 01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:08,866 and an ability for anyone to participate in it? 1410 01:17:08,866 --> 01:17:10,633 And here we are. 1411 01:17:10,633 --> 01:17:11,833 Careful what you wish for 1412 01:17:11,833 --> 01:17:15,633 and careful even what you imagine. 1413 01:17:15,633 --> 01:17:19,566 ♪♪ 1414 01:17:19,566 --> 01:17:21,766 Racist speech... 1415 01:17:21,766 --> 01:17:24,333 Russian propaganda... 1416 01:17:24,333 --> 01:17:27,133 false speech about medicines. 1417 01:17:27,133 --> 01:17:32,000 One of the dangers, one of the realities of free speech 1418 01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,533 is that everything can go overboard. 1419 01:17:34,533 --> 01:17:36,733 ♪♪ 1420 01:17:36,733 --> 01:17:41,166 A free speech regime has no answer for that 1421 01:17:41,166 --> 01:17:43,566 except more speech. 1422 01:17:43,566 --> 01:17:46,200 You know, we have to cross our fingers 1423 01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,800 and hope that the truth will out. 1424 01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,066 ♪♪ 1425 01:17:58,766 --> 01:18:04,866 I think that when one has to make that choice... 1426 01:18:04,866 --> 01:18:10,533 that the answer ought to be to hold our breath 1427 01:18:10,533 --> 01:18:13,000 and stay with the First Amendment. 1428 01:18:17,166 --> 01:18:19,233 History of mankind. 1429 01:18:19,233 --> 01:18:27,233 ♪♪ 1430 01:18:27,233 --> 01:18:30,966 Governments come to power around the world, 1431 01:18:30,966 --> 01:18:32,866 then misuse the power. 1432 01:18:32,866 --> 01:18:34,033 [ Indistinct shouting ] 1433 01:18:34,033 --> 01:18:36,133 [ Woman screams ] 1434 01:18:36,133 --> 01:18:37,266 ♪♪ 1435 01:18:37,266 --> 01:18:39,733 [ Bell rings ] 1436 01:18:39,733 --> 01:18:41,666 ♪♪ 1437 01:18:41,666 --> 01:18:45,500 And one of the first things they do is to go after 1438 01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:49,500 whatever the press is at that moment. 1439 01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:50,900 -Police last week 1440 01:18:50,900 --> 01:18:54,166 raided the offices of the 26-year-old tabloid paper. 1441 01:18:54,166 --> 01:18:55,366 [ Camera shutter clicking ] 1442 01:18:55,366 --> 01:18:57,633 -Russia blocked its last independent TV channel 1443 01:18:57,633 --> 01:18:59,133 and the network shut down. 1444 01:18:59,133 --> 01:19:00,533 -You are the enemy of the people. 1445 01:19:00,533 --> 01:19:02,066 Go ahead. -Mr. President. 1446 01:19:02,066 --> 01:19:05,733 -I mean, sometimes it takes a long time 1447 01:19:05,733 --> 01:19:08,233 for public opinion to be formed. 1448 01:19:08,233 --> 01:19:13,200 ♪♪ 1449 01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:17,000 And then a moment comes when people start to say, 1450 01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:19,700 "That's all wrong. None of that makes sense. 1451 01:19:19,700 --> 01:19:21,400 What are we doing there?" 1452 01:19:24,300 --> 01:19:29,866 The more we make it difficult to express dissenting views 1453 01:19:29,866 --> 01:19:32,733 or controversial views, 1454 01:19:32,733 --> 01:19:35,600 the less we can move, the less we can change, 1455 01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,466 the less we can even understand. 1456 01:19:38,466 --> 01:19:40,000 I mean, all we can say now, 1457 01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:45,066 I think, is that we have to lean very, very strongly 1458 01:19:45,066 --> 01:19:48,566 in the direction of free expression, 1459 01:19:48,566 --> 01:19:51,366 whatever the future may bring us. 1460 01:19:51,366 --> 01:19:58,733 ♪♪ 1461 01:19:58,733 --> 01:20:02,066 -I don't always see the world in the same way that he does. 1462 01:20:02,066 --> 01:20:04,300 -...avoid is any kind of system of law... 1463 01:20:04,300 --> 01:20:05,700 -But there are a number of cases 1464 01:20:05,700 --> 01:20:07,833 in which we are making arguments in court 1465 01:20:07,833 --> 01:20:11,633 that Floyd has made 20 years ago or 30 years ago. 1466 01:20:13,066 --> 01:20:16,400 Few people have done as much to shape 1467 01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:19,233 the First Amendment as it exists today. 1468 01:20:20,500 --> 01:20:23,200 -I think we in the press -- and I like to call it the press, 1469 01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:26,533 not the media, because media sounds like paint. 1470 01:20:26,533 --> 01:20:31,666 But people who do journalism for a living have been very lucky 1471 01:20:31,666 --> 01:20:35,733 to have Floyd Abrams on our side for generations. 1472 01:20:37,433 --> 01:20:39,500 -Floyd is a good litigator, 1473 01:20:39,500 --> 01:20:41,933 but by not a little happenstance, 1474 01:20:41,933 --> 01:20:45,666 he turns out to be the leading First Amendment press lawyer 1475 01:20:45,666 --> 01:20:47,366 in American history. 1476 01:20:47,366 --> 01:20:48,866 -I'm protecting the... 1477 01:20:48,866 --> 01:20:55,433 -His legacy will be as a fierce supporter of our Constitution 1478 01:20:55,433 --> 01:20:58,333 and our constitutional rights under the First Amendment, 1479 01:20:58,333 --> 01:21:00,400 which is just about the most important thing 1480 01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,033 in our Constitution. 1481 01:21:03,033 --> 01:21:05,066 -To this day, I'll be researching issues 1482 01:21:05,066 --> 01:21:07,566 and find cases that he was the lawyer on. 1483 01:21:07,566 --> 01:21:09,133 I mean, it happens all the time. 1484 01:21:09,133 --> 01:21:11,000 You know, my clerks will send me, 1485 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,733 you know, 10 different cases, like my dad argued two of those. 1486 01:21:13,733 --> 01:21:18,266 Like, I can see just what an effect he's had on the law. 1487 01:21:18,266 --> 01:21:31,733 ♪♪ 1488 01:21:35,766 --> 01:21:38,500 ♪♪ 1489 01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:42,233 -Not yet. 1490 01:21:47,700 --> 01:21:52,066 -You know, when we turn off the camera, who knows what I'll say? 1491 01:21:52,066 --> 01:21:54,066 How about a confession? -A confession? 1492 01:21:54,066 --> 01:21:57,000 What are you going to confess about? 1493 01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,633 -That I was wrong all the time. [ Laughter ] 1494 01:21:59,633 --> 01:22:01,533 Really bad answer, huh? 1495 01:22:01,533 --> 01:22:05,333 [ Laughter ] 1496 01:22:05,333 --> 01:22:08,966 Even in jest I won't give you a clip. 1497 01:22:08,966 --> 01:22:10,500 [ Laughs ] 1498 01:22:10,500 --> 01:22:12,566 -[ Indistinct ] -Oh, I thought 1499 01:22:12,566 --> 01:22:14,400 you said "fire" as in... 1500 01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:18,066 [ Laughter ] 1501 01:22:18,066 --> 01:22:20,000 A very subdued fire. 1502 01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:21,633 I had no better answer. 1503 01:22:21,633 --> 01:22:23,800 [ Laughs ] 1504 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:25,133 I could have said yes or no, 1505 01:22:25,133 --> 01:22:29,200 I guess, but then -- then there'd be more questions. 1506 01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:30,933 [ Beeps ] 1507 01:22:30,933 --> 01:22:32,033 -Alright. -Okay. 1508 01:22:32,033 --> 01:22:33,833 See you tomorrow. -See you tomorrow. 1509 01:22:33,833 --> 01:22:35,266 -You're going to leave the cameras or...? 1510 01:22:35,266 --> 01:22:36,600 -Nope, we're not going to leave the cameras. 1511 01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:37,866 -I thought I'd sell them. 1512 01:22:37,866 --> 01:22:39,500 [ Laughter ]