1 00:00:07,333 --> 00:00:10,330 I would move heaven, hell, and anything in between 2 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:12,233 to get to you. 3 00:00:12,266 --> 00:00:16,350 You wouldn't be safe anywhere if I was mad at you. 4 00:00:16,383 --> 00:00:19,350 And that's not bull. That's truth. 5 00:00:19,383 --> 00:00:22,216 I've went up against people. 6 00:00:22,250 --> 00:00:26,660 You could pull a gun on me, and if I'm mad at you, 7 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:28,450 I'm coming forward. 8 00:00:28,483 --> 00:00:31,366 You'd have to shoot me to stop me, 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,200 and if you don't kill me, 10 00:00:35,233 --> 00:00:37,383 you're stupid 11 00:00:37,416 --> 00:00:41,330 because the next time you see me--heh-- 12 00:00:41,660 --> 00:00:42,333 I will kill you. 13 00:00:42,366 --> 00:00:49,450 ♪ 14 00:00:55,483 --> 00:00:58,350 GUARD: Mr. Kuklinski we're going to conduct a pat search here. 15 00:00:58,383 --> 00:01:00,330 Put your arm up! 16 00:01:15,333 --> 00:01:17,216 INTERVIEWER: How many people have you killed? 17 00:01:21,250 --> 00:01:23,333 Approximate guess... 18 00:01:29,483 --> 00:01:32,500 approximate, well, got to be 19 00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:34,660 more than a hundred. 20 00:01:37,250 --> 00:01:40,216 NARRATOR: After a lifetime of killing for hire 21 00:01:40,250 --> 00:01:42,150 Kuklinski was finally caught 22 00:01:42,183 --> 00:01:46,660 by an undercover ATF agent wearing a hidden wire. 23 00:02:02,660 --> 00:02:05,266 MAN: Richard Kuklinski is one of the most dangerous criminals 24 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:08,383 we have ever come across in this state. 25 00:02:08,416 --> 00:02:13,660 He murdered by guns, he murdered by strangulation, 26 00:02:13,100 --> 00:02:17,830 he murdered by putting poison on victims' food. 27 00:02:17,116 --> 00:02:19,416 He did all of this at the same time 28 00:02:19,450 --> 00:02:23,216 while exhibiting a normal placid family existence. 29 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:26,433 His wife, his children were uninvolved 30 00:02:26,466 --> 00:02:32,200 in criminal activities, yet we are faced with evidence, 31 00:02:32,233 --> 00:02:37,166 convicting evidence of numerous grisly murders. 32 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,216 NARRATOR: In l986, the ATF 33 00:02:39,250 --> 00:02:42,116 and the New Jersey Organized Crime Task Force 34 00:02:42,150 --> 00:02:45,350 set up a road block outside Kuklinski's home. 35 00:02:45,383 --> 00:02:51,200 It took 5 men to bring down the 6'5", 300-pound killer 36 00:02:51,233 --> 00:02:54,830 and force handcuffs on him. 37 00:02:54,116 --> 00:02:58,300 The Iceman's career as a master criminal was finally over. 38 00:02:58,333 --> 00:03:01,183 ♪ 39 00:03:01,216 --> 00:03:05,183 Richard Kuklinski knows he will never get out of Jail. 40 00:03:05,216 --> 00:03:08,133 With nothing left to lose, Kuklinski reveals 41 00:03:08,166 --> 00:03:12,216 new secrets about the years he spent as a contract killer 42 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:15,116 for the Gambino crime family 43 00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:16,466 and tells what happened in his life 44 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,160 that turned him into a man 45 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:22,316 law enforcement called the Iceman. 46 00:03:22,350 --> 00:03:27,166 ♪ 47 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,100 I hated my father. 48 00:03:30,133 --> 00:03:35,100 If I could have, I probably would have killed him. 49 00:03:35,133 --> 00:03:37,483 Probably would have felt good about it, too. 50 00:03:40,416 --> 00:03:42,333 My father would beat me just for the-- 51 00:03:42,366 --> 00:03:44,333 just if I looked at him. 52 00:03:44,366 --> 00:03:48,133 He gave me this impersonal feeling I have 53 00:03:48,166 --> 00:03:51,233 to when people die in front of me, 54 00:03:51,266 --> 00:03:55,000 especially loudmouthed people. 55 00:03:55,330 --> 00:03:58,133 Loudmouthed people remind me of my father. 56 00:03:58,166 --> 00:04:02,150 Once a loudmouthed person starts with me, I love it. 57 00:04:02,183 --> 00:04:06,366 That's the only excuse I need. 58 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,150 NARRATOR: One night in a bar a loudmouth made 59 00:04:09,183 --> 00:04:14,483 the mistake of insulting the 18-year-old Kuklinski in front of people. 60 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,350 A couple of hours later, the Iceman saw 61 00:04:17,383 --> 00:04:22,166 his chance to get even. 62 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:23,433 KUKLINSKI: I come out of this bar, 63 00:04:23,466 --> 00:04:28,450 and I see him sleeping in his car. 64 00:04:28,483 --> 00:04:30,100 I said, "I got you, you little sucker. 65 00:04:30,133 --> 00:04:33,283 "Now I got you. 66 00:04:33,316 --> 00:04:35,450 I'm gonna give you a-- I'm gonna light your fire." 67 00:04:35,483 --> 00:04:37,830 And I did. 68 00:04:37,116 --> 00:04:40,433 I got myself a bottle, some gasoline, 69 00:04:40,466 --> 00:04:43,433 and I threw it in the car with him. 70 00:04:51,330 --> 00:04:54,660 And he was screaming and yelling... 71 00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:56,400 and burning, and the car burned. 72 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,300 And I could smell him. 73 00:05:02,333 --> 00:05:04,183 I walked down the block, and I could hear him 74 00:05:04,216 --> 00:05:06,183 as I turned the corner. 75 00:05:06,216 --> 00:05:08,830 He was still yelling. 76 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:13,350 This was a personal thing, yes. 77 00:05:13,383 --> 00:05:15,250 See, this was a guy I disliked. 78 00:05:15,283 --> 00:05:17,333 INTERVIEWER: What did he do to you? 79 00:05:17,366 --> 00:05:19,233 He made me mad. 80 00:05:19,266 --> 00:05:22,233 ♪ 81 00:05:22,266 --> 00:05:24,333 [Sirens] 82 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:42,660 NARRATOR: By the age of 25, Richard Kuklinski had no problem with murder, 83 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:45,250 but now he wanted to get paid for it. 84 00:05:45,283 --> 00:05:49,466 There was money in contract killing. 85 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,160 To prove himself, he auditioned 86 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:56,830 for Mafia Capo Roy DeMeo. 87 00:05:56,116 --> 00:05:59,183 KUKLINSKI: He said, "Well, I would expect you to, uh-- 88 00:05:59,216 --> 00:06:02,200 "if you came with me, I'd expect you to, uh-- 89 00:06:02,233 --> 00:06:03,400 "if I told you to whack somebody, 90 00:06:03,433 --> 00:06:05,466 "you'd whack him 91 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,400 without any question." 92 00:06:10,433 --> 00:06:14,216 So I says, "Well, I could probably do that." 93 00:06:14,250 --> 00:06:16,100 He says, "You probably could do it, 94 00:06:16,133 --> 00:06:19,183 "or could you do it? 95 00:06:19,216 --> 00:06:20,333 Do you do you think you could do it?" 96 00:06:20,366 --> 00:06:23,383 I said, "Yeah, I think I could do it." 97 00:06:23,416 --> 00:06:27,183 So he told Freddy to get the car. 98 00:06:27,216 --> 00:06:28,466 Got the car. 99 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,300 He and I got in the back seat, 100 00:06:30,333 --> 00:06:32,333 and Freddy was driving. 101 00:06:32,366 --> 00:06:34,660 We drove someplace. 102 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:35,250 I don't know where it was. 103 00:06:35,283 --> 00:06:37,216 It was someplace in New York... 104 00:06:37,250 --> 00:06:39,466 [Traffic sounds, dog barking] 105 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,250 and we were sitting there for a while. 106 00:06:41,283 --> 00:06:42,366 We got to where we were going. 107 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,100 We were sitting there for a while, 108 00:06:44,133 --> 00:06:47,830 and a man came in the distance. 109 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:51,216 He was walking his dog it looked like. 110 00:06:51,250 --> 00:06:52,483 So he said, "All right." 111 00:06:56,150 --> 00:06:59,233 "Take this guy down." 112 00:06:59,266 --> 00:07:05,233 I said, "Which--what--which guy are we talking about here?" 113 00:07:05,266 --> 00:07:07,316 So he says, "The man walking the dog." 114 00:07:07,350 --> 00:07:11,660 ♪ 115 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:13,150 So I got out of the car, and I started walking 116 00:07:13,183 --> 00:07:16,150 towards the man, and the man was walking his dog 117 00:07:16,183 --> 00:07:20,000 just like any regular guy. 118 00:07:20,330 --> 00:07:24,330 As he passed me, I turned around and shot him. 119 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:26,660 [Gunshot] 120 00:07:30,660 --> 00:07:31,466 Freddy and Roy pulled up in the car, 121 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,266 I got in the car, and we drove away, 122 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:40,450 and that is how I got involved with Roy, 123 00:07:40,483 --> 00:07:45,466 with doing things like that. 124 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,660 [Dog barking] 125 00:07:52,266 --> 00:07:54,333 NARRATOR: Roy DeMeo's hangout was the Gemini Lounge 126 00:07:54,366 --> 00:07:56,316 in Brooklyn, New York. 127 00:07:56,350 --> 00:07:59,330 It was a house of horrors 128 00:07:59,660 --> 00:08:02,660 where over a hundred people were murdered, chopped up, 129 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:04,250 and disposed of by DeMeo and his gang 130 00:08:04,283 --> 00:08:09,216 of lethal contract killers. 131 00:08:09,250 --> 00:08:12,116 After his proving himself, Kuklinski quickly became 132 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:15,216 one of DeMeo's favorite enforcers. 133 00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:22,500 DeMeo ordered the hits, and Kuklinski executed them without question. 134 00:08:22,830 --> 00:08:29,100 KUKLINSKI: He wanted this guy taken care of, 135 00:08:29,133 --> 00:08:33,183 but he wanted to talk to him first. 136 00:08:33,216 --> 00:08:38,483 So, uh, when I got to the place, 137 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:40,400 I asked the man for the money. 138 00:08:40,433 --> 00:08:42,466 So the guy says he didn't have it and Roy would 139 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,166 just have to wait until he got the money to pay him, 140 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,183 and that was that. 141 00:08:48,216 --> 00:08:49,316 He'd have to wait. 142 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:51,266 So I said to the man, I said, 143 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:53,433 "Well, you have to then talk to him. 144 00:08:53,466 --> 00:08:56,200 He wants to talk to you." 145 00:08:56,233 --> 00:08:59,166 So I dialed the phone number, 146 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,133 and he got on the phone, 147 00:09:02,166 --> 00:09:05,200 and I say, "Here. He wants to talk to you". 148 00:09:05,233 --> 00:09:10,660 So he was talking to him, and, uh, I guess they were 149 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:11,483 acting like everything was all right because he got 150 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,383 off the phone and he handed me the phone back. 151 00:09:13,416 --> 00:09:15,200 He says, "See, I told you he'd wait. 152 00:09:15,233 --> 00:09:16,433 "He's in a better frame of mind. 153 00:09:16,466 --> 00:09:19,233 Don't worry about it. He wants to talk to you now." 154 00:09:19,266 --> 00:09:22,233 So I picked up the phone, and he said, "Kill him." 155 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:28,283 So I shot him. 156 00:09:28,316 --> 00:09:31,116 [Gunshot] 157 00:09:31,150 --> 00:09:33,316 Hung up the phone and walked away. 158 00:09:39,483 --> 00:09:47,183 I am just a hard-working expeditor of sorts. 159 00:09:47,216 --> 00:09:50,433 I look at myself as a person who did something 160 00:09:50,466 --> 00:09:53,400 that somebody wanted done, 161 00:09:53,433 --> 00:09:56,216 and they paid me a good price. 162 00:10:00,133 --> 00:10:03,500 NARRATOR: In the early Eighties, the Gambinos were feeling 163 00:10:03,830 --> 00:10:05,283 the heat of an intense investigation 164 00:10:05,316 --> 00:10:09,400 which reached as high as their boss Paul Castellano. 165 00:10:09,433 --> 00:10:12,200 As the pressure from law enforcement grew, 166 00:10:12,233 --> 00:10:16,366 the Family began to worry about potential witnesses. 167 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,216 One, in particular, presented a major problem. 168 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:22,433 His name was Peter Calabro. 169 00:10:22,466 --> 00:10:24,350 The Family ordered a hit, 170 00:10:24,383 --> 00:10:27,250 and Kuklinski was given the contract. 171 00:10:27,283 --> 00:10:31,133 ♪ 172 00:10:31,166 --> 00:10:35,216 On March 14, 1980, Kuklinski drove for hours 173 00:10:35,250 --> 00:10:39,100 on a snow-covered road in Saddle River, New Jersey, 174 00:10:39,133 --> 00:10:43,160 waiting for a call to come through on his walkie-talkie. 175 00:10:48,233 --> 00:10:53,333 I get a call that they're on their way, 176 00:10:53,366 --> 00:10:57,000 so now they're coming, 177 00:10:57,330 --> 00:10:59,160 and it's snowing, 178 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:01,330 and the roads are very bad, 179 00:11:01,660 --> 00:11:03,416 a lot of snow, slipping and sliding, 180 00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:07,266 and I was in a van, 181 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:11,233 so what I figured is at the last moment-- 182 00:11:11,266 --> 00:11:13,000 I had a different plan, 183 00:11:13,330 --> 00:11:14,283 but at the last moment, I decided 184 00:11:14,316 --> 00:11:19,100 "Well, I'm going to double park this thing." 185 00:11:19,133 --> 00:11:21,160 This will give me the edge because this 186 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:24,660 will make him only have one way to come by, 187 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:28,133 and that's he has to come right by this van. 188 00:11:28,166 --> 00:11:31,316 And I go to the back of the van, 189 00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:35,500 and I go out the back door. 190 00:11:35,830 --> 00:11:39,350 I take the shotgun with me of course. 191 00:11:39,383 --> 00:11:44,316 So I kneel down, and I look under the van 192 00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:48,200 so I can see where he's approximately at. 193 00:11:48,233 --> 00:11:52,250 And so I watch him come up to where he's almost in front of the van, 194 00:11:52,283 --> 00:11:53,466 and I stood up... 195 00:11:56,483 --> 00:12:01,166 and as he's going by the van... 196 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,000 I fired. 197 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:03,483 [Gunshot] 198 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:05,250 [Glass shatters] 199 00:12:08,330 --> 00:12:11,450 I never knew the man-- you know, what he looked like 200 00:12:11,483 --> 00:12:13,250 or what his job was. 201 00:12:13,283 --> 00:12:18,216 Then I found out the next day that he was police. 202 00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:23,250 MAN ON RADIO: Description on the vehicle. 203 00:12:23,283 --> 00:12:27,830 KUKLINSKI: But had I been told to do him away 204 00:12:27,116 --> 00:12:30,166 and I knew he was police, 205 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,266 I most likely would have done it anyways. 206 00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:37,160 I don't think I would have said no. 207 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:39,200 NARRATOR: Kuklinski had killed a cop, 208 00:12:39,233 --> 00:12:42,233 a cop who had gone bad, selling information 209 00:12:42,266 --> 00:12:44,233 to the Gambinos, 210 00:12:44,266 --> 00:12:47,150 a cop who was eliminated before he could turn 211 00:12:47,183 --> 00:12:50,466 state's witness. 212 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,483 For Kuklinski, contracts like the Calabro murder were strictly business. 213 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,266 They gave him the money he needed for his family. 214 00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:03,416 The Iceman was leading a double life. 215 00:13:03,450 --> 00:13:07,830 He lived on a quiet street in Bergen County, New Jersey, 216 00:13:07,116 --> 00:13:09,483 surrounded by neighbors who had no idea 217 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,400 they were living next door to a Mafia hitman. 218 00:13:13,433 --> 00:13:17,383 He was determined that no one, not even his own family, 219 00:13:17,416 --> 00:13:22,000 would ever find out who he really was. 220 00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:27,383 WOMAN: I never questioned him, and you just knew don't do it. 221 00:13:27,416 --> 00:13:30,316 If he got up up at 2:00 in the morning or during dinner 222 00:13:30,350 --> 00:13:31,483 and put on his shoes on and walked out the door, 223 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,150 you said, "Bye." 224 00:13:33,183 --> 00:13:35,133 You didn't say, "Where are you going?" 225 00:13:35,166 --> 00:13:36,300 or "Why are you going?" 226 00:13:36,333 --> 00:13:42,160 and it was just understood that that's the way it was. 227 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:44,300 KUKLINSKI: I was the happiest when I was with Barbara. 228 00:13:44,333 --> 00:13:46,266 I never involved her in anything I ever did, 229 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:49,333 never told her anything I did. 230 00:13:49,366 --> 00:13:53,300 If I did, I probably would have shocked the pants off her. 231 00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:55,466 She knew I had a violent temper, 232 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,233 and I did have a violent temper, 233 00:13:58,266 --> 00:14:03,116 but I don't think she thought I would go as far as I did go. 234 00:14:03,150 --> 00:14:10,200 ♪ 235 00:14:10,233 --> 00:14:13,660 NARRATOR: Richard's time with his family was sacred, 236 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:16,433 and any interference would throw him into a rage. 237 00:14:16,466 --> 00:14:19,500 It made him even more angry if it happened 238 00:14:19,830 --> 00:14:24,660 during the holidays. 239 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:29,400 This fella, he owed me about $1,600, 240 00:14:29,433 --> 00:14:33,466 So here we come Christmas Eve. 241 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,400 And I go there, and he says, "Eh, come with me. 242 00:14:35,433 --> 00:14:37,483 "We'll go out, we'll have a good time, 243 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,383 "we'll party, we'll meet some broads 244 00:14:40,416 --> 00:14:42,500 with this, that, and the other thing." 245 00:14:42,830 --> 00:14:47,333 I said, "No, I got to-- I would really like the money. 246 00:14:47,366 --> 00:14:49,000 I got to buy something," 247 00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:53,233 and, you know, he gave me a... 248 00:14:53,266 --> 00:14:58,466 a story, a bull story. 249 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,333 So I left there. 250 00:15:00,366 --> 00:15:05,100 I was a little bit upset, got on a bus, went home. 251 00:15:05,133 --> 00:15:11,150 ♪ 252 00:15:11,183 --> 00:15:14,466 I was putting the toys together for the kids, 253 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,466 and this thing was really bugging me. 254 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,300 It was annoying me. 255 00:15:21,333 --> 00:15:24,350 It was just making my whole disposition bad. 256 00:15:24,383 --> 00:15:29,116 Thought just occurred to me "This is bullshit." 257 00:15:29,150 --> 00:15:32,133 NARRATOR: It was Christmas Eve after midnight. 258 00:15:32,166 --> 00:15:34,116 His family was sleeping. 259 00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:39,433 Kuklinski got in his car and drove to New York City. 260 00:15:39,466 --> 00:15:42,250 KUKLINSKI: I went to the bar. 261 00:15:42,283 --> 00:15:44,000 They told me he just left 262 00:15:44,330 --> 00:15:46,160 and he was parked a couple of blocks down 263 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,133 in the parking lot. 264 00:15:48,166 --> 00:15:53,233 The parking lot was closed, but he was parked in there. 265 00:15:53,266 --> 00:15:55,300 I saw his car, and his car was running, 266 00:15:55,333 --> 00:15:57,216 but it had snow on it. 267 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:05,330 So I knocked on the door, and he says, 268 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:07,183 "Hey. How are you? Glad to see you. 269 00:16:07,216 --> 00:16:08,333 Come on. Sit down." 270 00:16:08,366 --> 00:16:09,350 So I go walk around the passenger side, 271 00:16:09,383 --> 00:16:11,433 sit down, and I'm talking to him. 272 00:16:11,466 --> 00:16:14,450 I said, "Look. I really need the money." 273 00:16:14,483 --> 00:16:16,216 I says, "You know, it's not right. 274 00:16:16,250 --> 00:16:21,830 You've been you've just been playing me like a fool here." 275 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:24,000 I had this pistol in my hand, 276 00:16:24,330 --> 00:16:26,483 and he just was annoying me to no end 277 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,416 with this babbling, 278 00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:33,100 and he was just going on and on... 279 00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:38,660 and I fired. 280 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,116 [Gunshots] 281 00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:41,316 [Car alarm blaring] 282 00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:43,200 And I couldn't see a damn thing 283 00:16:43,233 --> 00:16:48,216 because there was snow on the windows. 284 00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:51,450 When that flash went off... 285 00:16:51,483 --> 00:16:54,116 I just had spots before my eyes. 286 00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:57,160 My ears were ringing because the noise inside the car 287 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,383 when the gun went off. 288 00:16:59,416 --> 00:17:02,200 I couldn't hear, couldn't see. 289 00:17:05,183 --> 00:17:06,466 Then I panicked 290 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,300 because now I don't know what's going on. 291 00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:17,233 Anyway, I caught the guy in the temple, 292 00:17:17,266 --> 00:17:21,266 and as he moved back, 293 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:27,216 the second shot caught him in under the chin. 294 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:30,330 Long about the time I could see, 295 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:37,000 I reached in the man's pocket, and he had a roll of money. 296 00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:40,500 I took my $1,600 off of him, 297 00:17:40,830 --> 00:17:45,500 put the rest of the money that was his in his pocket, 298 00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:52,400 got out of the car, and walked away. 299 00:17:52,433 --> 00:17:57,283 And that's... 300 00:17:57,316 --> 00:18:01,133 what happened one Christmas Eve in New York City. 301 00:18:01,166 --> 00:18:08,216 ♪ 302 00:18:12,450 --> 00:18:16,133 NARRATOR: The Iceman had killed by gun, by knife, 303 00:18:16,166 --> 00:18:19,350 by Molotov cocktail, and cyanide, 304 00:18:19,383 --> 00:18:23,500 but he also liked to experiment. 305 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:25,330 KUKLINSKI: Crossbow-- I just popped the guy 306 00:18:25,660 --> 00:18:28,160 in the forehead with it. 307 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:34,500 Actually it was just seeing if it would work. 308 00:18:34,830 --> 00:18:36,133 INTERVIEWER: What was he doing at the time? 309 00:18:36,166 --> 00:18:37,416 Looking at me. 310 00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:39,200 Well, was he sitting down, 311 00:18:39,233 --> 00:18:41,233 or were you standing over him, or-- 312 00:18:41,266 --> 00:18:44,160 No. He actually bent down to look in the car window 313 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:48,500 like I was asking him directions. 314 00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:50,366 I didn't know the man. 315 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:57,383 ♪ 316 00:18:57,416 --> 00:18:59,350 Was this a contract murder, 317 00:18:59,383 --> 00:19:01,233 or was it something out of anger, 318 00:19:01,266 --> 00:19:05,150 or was it a personal thing? 319 00:19:05,183 --> 00:19:08,283 Neither. 320 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:11,366 What was it? 321 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,366 I just wanted to see if this thing would work. 322 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,200 You mean, you were experimenting on somebody? 323 00:19:17,233 --> 00:19:19,366 Right. 324 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,183 Did it work? 325 00:19:22,216 --> 00:19:25,166 It sure did. 326 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,216 It went halfway into his head. 327 00:19:29,250 --> 00:19:31,433 NARRATOR: Kuklinski was always looking for new ways 328 00:19:31,466 --> 00:19:35,660 to get away with murder. 329 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:38,466 In the Eighties, a man who was nicknamed Mr. Softee 330 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,116 teamed up with Kuklinski. 331 00:19:43,150 --> 00:19:46,330 This harmless-looking ice cream vendor was 332 00:19:46,660 --> 00:19:49,366 in reality an army-trained demolitions expert 333 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,660 who was a violent and vicious killer. 334 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,433 MAN: Mr. Softee was an individual by the name 335 00:19:56,466 --> 00:19:59,133 of Robert Prongay. 336 00:19:59,166 --> 00:20:01,216 He used to operate a Mr. Softee truck. 337 00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:05,830 That's why he got the name Mr. Softee. 338 00:20:05,116 --> 00:20:07,316 He became friendly with Kuklinski, 339 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:09,383 very friendly with him. 340 00:20:09,416 --> 00:20:15,283 And it is our opinion that that friendship led 341 00:20:15,316 --> 00:20:18,383 to Richard Kuklinski learning a lot 342 00:20:18,416 --> 00:20:24,350 about killing with different types of chemicals 343 00:20:24,383 --> 00:20:26,166 including cyanide. 344 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,450 [Children chattering] 345 00:20:30,483 --> 00:20:33,483 KUKLINSKI: He taught me a lot basically, 346 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,500 but he was extremely crazy... 347 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,400 but he would read all kinds of books on destruction 348 00:20:45,433 --> 00:20:51,466 and all kinds of ways to-- to destroy somebody. 349 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,316 He used to go around in this Mr. Softee truck. 350 00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:57,433 That's how he used to spot people and... 351 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,350 get the outlay of the land, you know, 352 00:21:01,383 --> 00:21:03,183 where they were and easy ways, 353 00:21:03,216 --> 00:21:06,500 and sometimes he'd do it right from the truck. 354 00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:07,150 And he sold ice cream? 355 00:21:07,183 --> 00:21:10,150 Yes, he did. Sold Mr. Softee. 356 00:21:10,183 --> 00:21:11,366 He had one of those Mr. Softee trucks-- 357 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,466 Right-- Did you ever see them? 358 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,000 That's what he sold. 359 00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:16,350 And he sold ice cream to the little kids 360 00:21:16,383 --> 00:21:17,316 in the neighborhood? 361 00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:20,116 Yes, he did. and that's what he did. 362 00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:22,830 He sold--he'd go into these neighborhoods 363 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:26,000 and sell ice cream to the kids 364 00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:28,350 and maybe kill one of their fathers. 365 00:21:28,383 --> 00:21:34,450 ♪ 366 00:21:34,483 --> 00:21:39,483 NARRATOR: On August 9, 1984, Mr. Softee was found dead, 367 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,500 hanging out of the driver's side seat 368 00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:45,100 in his Mr. Softee ice cream truck. 369 00:21:45,133 --> 00:21:48,400 He had been killed by multiple gunshot wounds to the head. 370 00:21:48,433 --> 00:21:56,000 ♪ 371 00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:03,400 SMITH: I think Kuklinski killed him because he used him 372 00:22:03,433 --> 00:22:05,183 for his information, 373 00:22:05,216 --> 00:22:07,350 he used him for his knowledge. 374 00:22:07,383 --> 00:22:09,366 He probably brought him around, 375 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,500 brought him with him on certain jobs that he did, 376 00:22:14,830 --> 00:22:18,100 and it was--it was time for the boss to make 377 00:22:18,133 --> 00:22:22,166 the decision that he didn't want any more loose ends. 378 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,400 He may have said something the wrong way to Richie. 379 00:22:24,433 --> 00:22:25,400 Who knows? 380 00:22:25,433 --> 00:22:28,160 Whatever it was, Kuklinski in my opinion, 381 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:30,233 made the decision to kill him. 382 00:22:30,266 --> 00:22:36,116 ♪ 383 00:22:36,150 --> 00:22:39,200 NARRATOR: After Prongay's murder, Kuklinski was hired 384 00:22:39,233 --> 00:22:44,160 for a dangerous contract no one else would touch. 385 00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:46,350 It was here in a crowded discotheque that 386 00:22:46,383 --> 00:22:48,250 the cyanide killing techniques 387 00:22:48,283 --> 00:22:51,466 learned from Mr. Softee paid off. 388 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,300 KUKLINSKI: I couldn't get to this person 389 00:22:53,333 --> 00:22:56,133 because he was at a disco. 390 00:22:56,166 --> 00:23:01,166 So...I was really in a bad way 391 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:10,830 because there was a time schedule involved, 392 00:23:10,116 --> 00:23:16,830 and I happened to be watching these people, 393 00:23:16,116 --> 00:23:23,160 and there was a couple of gay people dancing and whatever, 394 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,160 and nobody was paying them no mind whatsoever. 395 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:27,400 They would walk in anywhere, go anywhere 396 00:23:27,433 --> 00:23:33,433 because people basically don't look at gay people, 397 00:23:33,466 --> 00:23:38,250 but the idea came to me, "Yeah, try to act gay, 398 00:23:38,283 --> 00:23:42,116 "but how in the hell am I going to get by? 399 00:23:42,150 --> 00:23:43,400 A 300-pound gay man." 400 00:23:43,433 --> 00:23:50,330 I mean, you know, that's a little bit farfetched. 401 00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:55,400 So I went to the extreme of farfetched. 402 00:23:55,433 --> 00:23:59,350 I got this loudest costume you'd ever want to see on. 403 00:23:59,383 --> 00:24:03,333 I mean, I went full-blown gay person. 404 00:24:03,366 --> 00:24:05,330 Of course, maybe now the gay people are going to 405 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:07,216 pissed off at me, but I'm not saying 406 00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:09,333 anything bad about them. 407 00:24:09,366 --> 00:24:16,216 But I got this canary yellow sweater 408 00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:18,350 and these bright pants, 409 00:24:18,383 --> 00:24:21,116 and I got these elevated shoes, 410 00:24:21,150 --> 00:24:22,150 which I'm tall to begin with. 411 00:24:22,183 --> 00:24:24,383 Now I got these thing-- shoes on, 412 00:24:24,416 --> 00:24:28,100 and I acted like a full-blown gay person, I mean, 413 00:24:28,133 --> 00:24:34,300 and I got on this thing, and I'm doing, 414 00:24:34,333 --> 00:24:37,116 this, like, dancing bit, 415 00:24:37,150 --> 00:24:39,100 and I get on to this thing, and they got these lights. 416 00:24:39,133 --> 00:24:40,350 And I hate those lights, by the way, 417 00:24:40,383 --> 00:24:42,233 those strobe lights. 418 00:24:42,266 --> 00:24:44,150 Man, I hate those lights. 419 00:24:44,183 --> 00:24:46,133 You can't see good with them lights, 420 00:24:46,166 --> 00:24:48,300 and it messes up my eyes. 421 00:24:48,333 --> 00:24:52,160 So, anyway, I'm trying to get close to this guy. 422 00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:55,116 So I'm doing this crazy thing, 423 00:24:55,150 --> 00:24:57,000 I'm acting real swishy. 424 00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,350 I guess that's what you would call it, 425 00:24:59,383 --> 00:25:05,160 and I get up close to this guy, 426 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,330 and I bump into him, 427 00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:10,316 but everybody's bumping into everybody... 428 00:25:14,316 --> 00:25:19,300 and he had a heart attack 429 00:25:19,333 --> 00:25:25,330 because I had a hypodermic needle. 430 00:25:25,660 --> 00:25:29,266 When I bumped into him, I--I popped him with the needle. 431 00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:33,160 ♪ 432 00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,266 What was in the needle? 433 00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:38,300 In his case? 434 00:25:38,333 --> 00:25:40,830 Heart attack. 435 00:25:50,166 --> 00:25:51,483 NARRATOR: There was no doubt that Richard Kuklinski 436 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,100 was a stone-cold killer, 437 00:25:54,133 --> 00:25:58,416 and most people thought that's why he was called the Iceman, 438 00:25:58,450 --> 00:26:01,266 but law enforcement had another reason for pinning 439 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,266 this name on him. 440 00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:06,466 They called him the Iceman because 441 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,350 to confuse the time of death, he would take his victims 442 00:26:10,383 --> 00:26:14,383 and put them in a freezer for long periods of time. 443 00:26:14,416 --> 00:26:20,150 One such victim was a man named Louis Masgay. 444 00:26:20,183 --> 00:26:23,300 He did too good a job on this body. 445 00:26:23,333 --> 00:26:27,433 After leaving the body in a freezer for over two years, 446 00:26:27,466 --> 00:26:32,400 He then took the body out and dumped it where it was 447 00:26:32,433 --> 00:26:37,383 found before it had thawed out. 448 00:26:37,416 --> 00:26:40,183 So when the medical examiner does the autopsy 449 00:26:40,216 --> 00:26:43,116 and opens the body up, 450 00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:51,266 he finds ice inside the body on a warm summer's day. 451 00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:55,283 The medical examiner says, "There's something wrong here. 452 00:26:55,316 --> 00:27:01,233 This guy couldn't have died in the past few days." 453 00:27:01,266 --> 00:27:03,400 NARRATOR: After the discovery of the half frozen body 454 00:27:03,433 --> 00:27:07,100 of Louis Masgay, the noose began to 455 00:27:07,133 --> 00:27:11,266 tighten around Kuklinski and his boss Roy DeMeo. 456 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:13,433 Under pressure from law enforcement, 457 00:27:13,466 --> 00:27:16,200 DeMeo began to act erratically, 458 00:27:16,233 --> 00:27:18,266 and the Family felt he was about to crack 459 00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:20,450 and testify against them. 460 00:27:20,483 --> 00:27:24,150 There was no question in their minds he had to go. 461 00:27:24,183 --> 00:27:27,216 ♪ 462 00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:30,233 NARRATOR: In l983, DeMeo's body was found 463 00:27:30,266 --> 00:27:32,383 in a trunk of a car. 464 00:27:32,416 --> 00:27:37,000 He had been shot 5 times and had been dead a week. 465 00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:42,283 There were some who thought Kuklinski might be responsible. 466 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:45,366 Do you know anything about his murder? 467 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,433 Who? DeMeo? 468 00:27:46,466 --> 00:27:48,166 Yeah. 469 00:27:50,483 --> 00:27:54,333 He outlived his usefulness, 470 00:27:54,366 --> 00:28:01,160 and he was, uh... 471 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,416 running the wrong way. 472 00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:08,150 Apparently everybody thought he was gonna run to the law. 473 00:28:16,183 --> 00:28:20,266 What did you feel when he was killed? 474 00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:22,133 What did you feel about it? 475 00:28:22,166 --> 00:28:26,366 I was all broken up over it. 476 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,400 I've got a bridge for you, too, I want to sell you. 477 00:28:29,433 --> 00:28:31,330 What? I didn't hear you. 478 00:28:31,660 --> 00:28:32,830 I got a bridge for you, too. 479 00:28:32,116 --> 00:28:33,166 I want to sell you a bridge. 480 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,183 I wasn't broken up over him. 481 00:28:35,216 --> 00:28:38,416 That was a-- my attempt at levity, 482 00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:42,450 but I thought at the time it couldn't have happened 483 00:28:42,483 --> 00:28:44,350 to a nicer person. 484 00:28:46,133 --> 00:28:47,450 If somebody had to die that day, 485 00:28:47,483 --> 00:28:50,166 it was a good day for him to die. 486 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,266 ♪ 487 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,200 NARRATOR: Over the next 3 years, 488 00:28:56,233 --> 00:28:59,316 The New Jersey Organized Crime Task Force concentrated 489 00:28:59,350 --> 00:29:02,316 on closing in on Kuklinski. 490 00:29:02,350 --> 00:29:05,330 When Kuklinski began to feel cornered, 491 00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:08,266 he started eliminating anyone who could implicate him 492 00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:11,660 in his criminal activities. 493 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:15,116 If he called you friend, you had a problem. 494 00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:20,000 Yesterday's friend soon became tomorrow's enemy. 495 00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:22,483 One of those friends turned enemy was a man 496 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,350 who had been Kuklinski's partner. 497 00:29:25,383 --> 00:29:28,400 His name was George Malliband. 498 00:29:28,433 --> 00:29:31,433 KUKLINSKI: Georgie Boy? Yeah. 499 00:29:31,466 --> 00:29:35,383 Yeah. Liked him. 500 00:29:35,416 --> 00:29:41,200 Actually, yeah, really liked him. 501 00:29:41,233 --> 00:29:44,830 One of the few people I ever really liked. 502 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:47,233 ♪ 503 00:29:47,266 --> 00:29:50,333 NARRATOR: But Malliband had developed some bad habits. 504 00:29:50,366 --> 00:29:53,150 He racked up thousands of dollars in gambling debts 505 00:29:53,183 --> 00:29:55,116 to loan sharks. 506 00:29:55,150 --> 00:29:58,000 Kuklinski had vouched for him and told Malliband 507 00:29:58,330 --> 00:30:00,500 he'd better pay up. 508 00:30:00,830 --> 00:30:03,466 Then Malliband made a fatal mistake. 509 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000 He told Kuklinski that if he didn't back off 510 00:30:07,330 --> 00:30:10,216 he would hurt his family. 511 00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:13,116 KUKLINSKI: Which really struck a nerve with me. 512 00:30:13,150 --> 00:30:15,333 It upset me, but I was trying 513 00:30:15,366 --> 00:30:21,100 not to get upset with it at that time 514 00:30:21,133 --> 00:30:22,483 because I figured he was just nervous maybe 515 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:29,466 and was just spouting off, but apparently he wasn't 516 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,266 NARRATOR: But the Iceman couldn't forget that 517 00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:33,316 Malliband had threatened his family, 518 00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:37,450 and several weeks later, he began to plan his murder. 519 00:30:37,483 --> 00:30:42,400 ♪ 520 00:30:42,433 --> 00:30:45,330 KUKLINSKI: We got in the van, 521 00:30:45,660 --> 00:30:50,216 and I said, "George, were you really sincere 522 00:30:50,250 --> 00:30:55,466 "with the fact that you would hurt my family 523 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,483 to get back at me?" 524 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,183 And he said, "That's the only way I could get you-- 525 00:31:04,216 --> 00:31:07,166 "I could get over on you, get you to do 526 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,266 what I wanted you to do is to hurt your family." 527 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,200 I said, "But that's a stupid thing to say, George." 528 00:31:13,233 --> 00:31:16,250 I said, "Knowing how badly-- how sincere I am 529 00:31:16,283 --> 00:31:18,100 about my family." 530 00:31:18,133 --> 00:31:19,416 I said, "For you to say something like that, 531 00:31:19,450 --> 00:31:23,116 you must realize you're gonna make me mad." 532 00:31:23,150 --> 00:31:24,316 He says, "No, you won't be mad." 533 00:31:24,350 --> 00:31:29,330 He says, "Because you'd be afraid that something 534 00:31:29,660 --> 00:31:30,383 would happen to your family." 535 00:31:30,416 --> 00:31:34,100 I said "Well, you're very wrong about that George." 536 00:31:34,133 --> 00:31:37,660 I said, "Because I'm gonna put a stop to that. 537 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:38,233 "As a matter of fact, I'm gonna put a stop 538 00:31:38,266 --> 00:31:41,166 to that right now." 539 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,183 And I shot him 5 times. 540 00:31:43,216 --> 00:31:44,366 [Gunshots] 541 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,830 I could see them entering because he was right here. 542 00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:50,333 We're sitting in the van. 543 00:31:50,366 --> 00:31:53,383 I'm in the driver's seat, Georgie Boy was over here... 544 00:31:55,150 --> 00:31:59,283 in the next seat, which was, you know, just like that. 545 00:31:59,316 --> 00:32:01,250 And I went, "Pop, pop, pop," 546 00:32:01,283 --> 00:32:06,100 and I went "pop, pop." 547 00:32:06,133 --> 00:32:08,366 And I could see the material moving 548 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,000 on his jacket as these things-- 549 00:32:13,330 --> 00:32:17,283 actually, they made little marks on it, on the jacket. 550 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:21,283 I guess they were burn marks or something. 551 00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:23,166 NARRATOR: Kuklinski's favorite way of disposing 552 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,000 of bodies was putting them in barrels, 553 00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:29,283 but with the 6-foot, 300-hundred pound George Malliband, 554 00:32:29,316 --> 00:32:32,000 it wasn't easy. 555 00:32:32,330 --> 00:32:34,450 KUKLINSKI: So when I got him in, I had a problem with one leg. 556 00:32:36,366 --> 00:32:38,660 I had a hell of a problem with the leg, 557 00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:39,316 I'll tell you. 558 00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:42,433 No matter what I did, I couldn't get that leg in there. 559 00:32:45,416 --> 00:32:47,416 So I had to cut it. 560 00:32:50,333 --> 00:32:52,433 Put the top on. 561 00:32:55,150 --> 00:32:58,483 And I drove down to Jersey City, 562 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,416 where I dumped him. 563 00:33:06,233 --> 00:33:08,350 NARRATOR: The next morning, a passerby noticed 564 00:33:08,383 --> 00:33:12,266 a dented steel drum turned over on its side. 565 00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:14,416 When he walked over to get a closer look, 566 00:33:14,450 --> 00:33:20,166 he saw a pair of legs, one of them bloody and hacked. 567 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,216 The body was George Malliband. 568 00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:29,330 Police knew Kuklinski was the last person to see him alive. 569 00:33:31,233 --> 00:33:34,830 The New Jersey Organized Crime Task Force 570 00:33:34,116 --> 00:33:36,133 now had just one mission, 571 00:33:36,166 --> 00:33:41,160 to gather the evidence to arrest and convict Richard Kuklinski. 572 00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:47,216 CARROLL: The final method that was used was, in fact, 573 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:50,116 the introduction of an undercover federal agent, 574 00:33:50,150 --> 00:33:52,200 Dominick Polifrone, 575 00:33:52,233 --> 00:33:54,433 who was able to win Mr. Kuklinski's confidence 576 00:33:54,466 --> 00:33:57,183 and was able to record conversations where he 577 00:33:57,216 --> 00:34:00,150 detailed his participation in these murders. 578 00:34:00,183 --> 00:34:02,250 I portrayed myself as a hitman, 579 00:34:02,283 --> 00:34:06,333 told him I worked for the wiseguys downtown New York 580 00:34:06,366 --> 00:34:09,433 and my brother was a goodfella downtown, 581 00:34:09,466 --> 00:34:16,200 and I went by the name of Dominick Michael Provenzano. 582 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,250 NARRATOR: The tapes made by the undercover agent 583 00:34:34,283 --> 00:34:36,366 had nailed Richard Kuklinski, 584 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:41,133 and his career as a contract killer was finally over. 585 00:34:41,166 --> 00:34:45,100 At his trial, his family learned for the first time 586 00:34:45,133 --> 00:34:48,116 that they really didn't know the Richard Kuklinski 587 00:34:48,150 --> 00:34:52,183 who was also capable of being the deadly Iceman. 588 00:34:52,216 --> 00:34:56,183 ♪ 589 00:34:56,216 --> 00:34:59,200 Richard Kuklinski is now serving multiple life sentences 590 00:34:59,233 --> 00:35:03,366 in New Jersey State Maximum Security Prison. 591 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,350 Ironically his younger brother Joey is also 592 00:35:06,383 --> 00:35:09,433 serving a life sentence in the same prison. 593 00:35:13,266 --> 00:35:15,450 When Joey was 25, he was convicted 594 00:35:15,483 --> 00:35:19,266 of raping and murdering a 12-year-old girl. 595 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,316 After he strangled the girl, he dragged her body 596 00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:25,466 over two adjoining rooftops and threw her 597 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,350 and her pet dog to the street 40 feet below. 598 00:35:39,183 --> 00:35:40,450 Do do you want to talk about your brother, or-- 599 00:35:40,483 --> 00:35:42,100 What do you want to talk about? 600 00:35:42,133 --> 00:35:43,366 There's nothing to talk about. 601 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,160 Because we never brought up your brother 602 00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:46,416 in the first show, and-- 603 00:35:46,450 --> 00:35:48,330 You want to talk about him, 604 00:35:48,660 --> 00:35:49,366 we'll talk about him. 605 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,333 He's been here for 25, 27 years, something like that. 606 00:35:54,366 --> 00:35:57,500 He's been here a long time. 607 00:35:57,830 --> 00:36:00,100 25 years, I think. 608 00:36:00,133 --> 00:36:01,400 Don't hold me to that exactly, 609 00:36:01,433 --> 00:36:05,330 but I'm pretty sure that's c--pretty close. 610 00:36:05,660 --> 00:36:06,433 And he's here for murder. 611 00:36:06,466 --> 00:36:10,500 Yes. 612 00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:13,333 What happened-- how old was he when-- 613 00:36:13,366 --> 00:36:16,383 He was a young man. 614 00:36:16,416 --> 00:36:21,316 He was in his 20s, I believe. 615 00:36:21,350 --> 00:36:24,233 And what went wrong in his case? 616 00:36:24,266 --> 00:36:26,450 Do you think he was a product, also, 617 00:36:26,483 --> 00:36:28,300 of what you went through? 618 00:36:28,333 --> 00:36:31,416 We come from the same father. 619 00:36:31,450 --> 00:36:33,300 Do you see him, Richard? 620 00:36:33,333 --> 00:36:35,116 I pass him. 621 00:36:35,150 --> 00:36:36,250 What do you say, just "Hello" 622 00:36:36,283 --> 00:36:37,400 and keep on walking? 623 00:36:37,433 --> 00:36:39,200 "How you doing, Joe?" 624 00:36:39,233 --> 00:36:41,660 "How you?" 625 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:44,150 "Take care." 626 00:36:44,183 --> 00:36:47,160 That's it? 627 00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:51,160 I told you I have-- do all short stories. 628 00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:55,160 That's being overfriendly with my brother. 629 00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:57,216 Does he try to talk to you? 630 00:36:57,250 --> 00:36:59,166 He says less to me, as a matter of fact. 631 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,366 Sometimes he doesn't even answer me, I don't think, 632 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,183 thinking about it. 633 00:37:05,433 --> 00:37:08,466 That's too bad. 634 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,250 Depends on how you look at it. 635 00:37:10,283 --> 00:37:15,500 ♪ 636 00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:18,233 If by some miracle, Richard, you got 637 00:37:18,266 --> 00:37:21,660 out of here tomorrow, 638 00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:22,160 let's say... 639 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:23,250 Hmm. 640 00:37:23,283 --> 00:37:24,316 for the sake of argument, 641 00:37:24,350 --> 00:37:28,660 what would you do? 642 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:29,150 Would you go back to that life, 643 00:37:29,183 --> 00:37:30,266 or would you do something else? 644 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:33,200 No. It's passed me now. 645 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,333 I have 10 years without violence. 646 00:37:38,366 --> 00:37:41,400 I don't really look forward to violence anymore. 647 00:37:44,183 --> 00:37:47,200 I don't even think I could play the game anymore. 648 00:37:47,233 --> 00:37:51,000 Probably get myself shot the first time out. 649 00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:52,216 I wouldn't do it anyway. 650 00:37:52,250 --> 00:37:56,500 I'd look to retire in a nice, quiet place someplace. 651 00:37:56,830 --> 00:37:59,266 no banging doors, no people yelling and screaming. 652 00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:07,300 Somewhere if I wanted to think I could just sit there and think. 653 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,483 Is there anything you wouldn't do, Richard, 654 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,300 for a contract murder? 655 00:38:19,333 --> 00:38:20,300 Yes. 656 00:38:20,333 --> 00:38:21,433 What wouldn't you do? 657 00:38:21,466 --> 00:38:23,433 I wouldn't kill a child... 658 00:38:27,350 --> 00:38:30,100 and most likely wouldn't kill a woman. 659 00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:43,133 Did you ever let anyone go? 660 00:38:43,166 --> 00:38:47,233 For whatever reason did you ever decide to let someone go? 661 00:38:47,266 --> 00:38:49,116 Yes. 662 00:38:53,233 --> 00:38:54,400 But then I thought better of the idea 663 00:38:54,433 --> 00:38:56,383 and shot him anyway. 664 00:39:00,150 --> 00:39:03,433 Did you ever murder anyone you liked? 665 00:39:03,466 --> 00:39:06,830 All my friends are dead. 666 00:39:06,116 --> 00:39:10,316 At one point, in time, I'm sure I liked them. 667 00:39:10,350 --> 00:39:13,116 But not at the moment of killing them. 668 00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:15,166 I might have even liked them then. 669 00:39:21,183 --> 00:39:25,416 Honor among thieves-- there's no such thing. 670 00:39:25,450 --> 00:39:28,116 You see, because I was put in prison 671 00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:30,416 by a man I knew 30 years, 672 00:39:30,450 --> 00:39:32,266 and I liked him. 673 00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:34,166 Big mistake. 674 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,150 I had one friend too many. 675 00:39:36,183 --> 00:39:39,233 I am now serving multi life sentences because 676 00:39:39,266 --> 00:39:43,000 of my one friend, 677 00:39:43,330 --> 00:39:45,150 and he's the only friend I didn't kill. 678 00:39:45,183 --> 00:39:52,233 ♪ 679 00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:56,216 Hoffa? 680 00:40:56,250 --> 00:40:58,133 Yeah. 681 00:40:58,166 --> 00:41:00,266 I don't know anything about Hoff, Jimmy Hoffa. 682 00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,383 Or the scuttlebutt, let's say--let's put it that way. 683 00:41:03,416 --> 00:41:08,160 Scuttlebutt? He's in a Japanese car. 684 00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:12,150 Supposedly, he was picked up, put in a drum, 685 00:41:12,183 --> 00:41:14,166 put in the trunk of a car, 686 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,283 put in a crusher with other cars, 687 00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:21,450 crushed, and shipped overseas. 688 00:41:21,483 --> 00:41:23,366 That's what I heard. 689 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,830 Don't know. 690 00:41:25,116 --> 00:41:26,333 I think the last time I asked you that 691 00:41:26,366 --> 00:41:30,330 you thought he was a Toyota. 692 00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:31,383 Could be a Toyota. 693 00:41:31,416 --> 00:41:34,133 Some little Japanese car. 694 00:41:34,166 --> 00:41:41,233 ♪ 695 00:42:33,450 --> 00:42:36,433 ANNOUNCER: Now log on to HBO.com 696 00:42:36,466 --> 00:42:38,333 and find out more about this documentary 697 00:42:38,366 --> 00:42:41,483 and others in the award-winning "America Undercover" series. 698 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,433 Informative, interactive, intriguing-- 699 00:42:44,466 --> 00:42:48,483 "America Undercover" at HBO.com.