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Carnivale is an epic story
set in the '30s
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about the struggle
of good and evil
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and I guess that's it
in a nutshell.
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Let's shake some dust!
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For every unclean spirit
and hateful birth.
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It is.
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One of the reasons
the show was kind of fun to do
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is that it's a time -
the Dust Bowl era -
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that you heard about
but didn't know much about it.
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We had a very cursory knowledge
of the Dust Bowl.
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I grew up in Texas, you'd
think I'd know more,
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but it, for some reason, hadn't been
a subject that was deeply covered
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in my history classes,
and so we really dove in.
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lt's one of the things
we love as writers anyway
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is to sort of learn the new world
that we have to write
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and there was so much to learn.
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I thought that in a carnival
there's magic. There's also fakes,
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and also people maybe
with real abilities.
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It was the perfect place
to set a show
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where you didn't know who was good or
evil, who was real and who was fake.
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So I thought that was
a brilliant part of the concept,
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it wasn't just on the streets of
Chicago, or the streets of any city,
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it was really in a place
where there is magic
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or people thought there
could be magic.
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We operated the show
no different than any other show.
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I think the creator of the show
has a vision
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and it's everybody else's job, non-writers and
the staff of writers, to help realise that vision.
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Everybody realised
that Dan knew what this show was
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and had this huge vision for the show.
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A lot of times we would
sort of take the attitude of
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"we don't even fully understand it,
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"we're only seeing a small
piece of the puzzle."
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And we would rely on Dan
to step in and say,
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"No, I don't want to do that"
or "This doesn't quite fit. "
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All you have to say is,
"Dan, I'm confused about this."
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or "What do you think
about Brother Justin doing this?"
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And he would spew forth, you know,
this really interesting stuff
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and then we would build on it.
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He had done a lot of research and had
had all this information for many years.
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So I just tried to put myself
in the position of the viewer
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and sort of doling out
information to them.
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I would have
to understand it first
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to be able to help transform it
into a television show.
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As a room full of writers,
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that was probably the most exciting
writer room that we've ever been in
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in terms of the kind of ideas
that were expressed.
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And so many times a writer would come
bursting into the room saying, "I got it!"
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You know. And this complex mythology
finally evolved.
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And it was a wonder
to behold, you know,
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because it was, you know,
sometimes you felt you were going crazy
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because there was so much stuff
to think about and bring in.
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It was funny, when the show started
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I remember people arguing about,
"OK, wait, is Ben evil and is Justin good?
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"ls Justin evil? ls Ben good?"
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Cos we saw Justin taking care
of the poor and all these nice things,
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and it's so funny because to me the thesis
was set out in the very first episode.
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We see Ben lay hands on
a little girl and heal her.
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We see Justin make some
poor old lady vomit coins.
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I have sinned!
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When you're dealing with avatars,
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dealing with people
with god-like or devil-like abilities
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you're trying to let
people understand it
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so you want to be consistent -
whatever the rule is, be consistent.
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So we had in our mind what we thought
their talent was, their abilities,
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whether good or bad,
and tried to be consistent.
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People appreciate it
cos we're honest.
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But it's open to some
interpretation.
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One thing that I've noticed
in this show
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is they set up an expectation
and then they invert it.
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For instance, at the beginning
you have Justin, he's a priest.
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You think of priests
as good people.
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Ben has escaped from a chain gang
and is wanted for murder.
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That's not a very nice thing.
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So you start out with this expectation
of Ben as someone not very good,
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Justin being somebody good,
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then over the course of
the two seasons, they swap.
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Ben's the creature of light,
Justin's the creature of darkness.
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His background is completely different
from Justin's.
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Justin's educated, Justin has a moral
and ethical structure around him.
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He has any number of lessons
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and quotes to fall back on
to support whatever he wants to do,
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any number of rationalisations.
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And he also is a respected member
of society.
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Ben, on the other hand, is not.
He's a forgotten member of society.
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He's never been inculcated
with any hope.
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Why should he rise up?
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There's nothing that's helping him
rise beyond who he is and what he is
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which is, you know, just some of
the flotsam and jetsam of that time.
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And so he would naturally
be reluctant to think
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that he is destined
for some kind of universal purpose.
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The black blizzard episode...
there really was such a thing.
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That black blizzard
actually occurred.
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And at the time people thought
it was the wrath of God.
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That God was smoting the Midwest
and America for hubris or whatever.
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I thought it was kind of cool that
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in the CGl that they did
of the blizzard, you know,
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it kind of looked like
the towers at 9/11 .
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With the smoke and
the billowing and...
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and I know that I had
a kind of a visceral reaction
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when I saw the CGI of it.
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Like, oh, my God, that's scary,
that's, you know, God punishing us.
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Hawkins.
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- What the hell are you doing?
- Welcome.
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I almost got dead out there!
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You were not in any real danger.
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I think we both know that.
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What Lodz was saying to Ben was
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"You have the power
to stop the blizzard."
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Which Ben did not believe.
At that point Ben didn't believe -
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he barely understood
- what he was about.
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That was supposed
to show the audience
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what could be possible
in future seasons,
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you know, if Ben became
a master of his craft.
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Make it stop.
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Stop it now!
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Open the door.
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Lodz was trying to say,
look what you could do
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if you had the knowledge that I have
and that I can impart to you.
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So Lodz was playing a game with him,
trying to manipulate Ben.
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Samson sees how the character of Lodz
is sort of sniffing around Ben
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for his own benefit.
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So Samson sort of takes
Ben under his wing
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to try to help guide
him a little bit
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through the pitfalls of the dynamics
that exist in Carnivale.
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He's the helper to
the reluctant saviour.
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Does that mean anything to you?
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Ben, I mean, not only is the healing
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one aspect of his power,
physical healing,
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but when we got into
the second season we saw it more.
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We saw a piece of it
in the first season,
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when he heals the woman
with the baby
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but in the second season we began
to see what Ben's true power was,
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and that it was not healing people's bodies,
it was healing people's spirits.
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I'm sorry.
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Don't do that no more.
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No. I won't.
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Ever again.
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And really that's where
Ben's real power is.
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lt's the mirror image
of Brother Justin.
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ls this the ramped entrance, here?
At the rear of the temple?
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Yes, sir, I believe so.
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You see? That way you won't miss
a single service.
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Norman is Justin's last
link to humanity.
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He is the man that found
Iris and Justin as children
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just after the train wreck.
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He took them in,
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you know, gave Justin
his appreciation for religion,
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and that's the reason
Justin went and joined the ministry.
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I am a changed man.
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I can see that.
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Norman becomes the benevolent
father figure.
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And that concerns you?
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Yes, it does.
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Probably Justin didn't know his father
much at all.
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And so a male in a male's
life is very important.
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And who could have a better example
than Norman Balthus, a man of God?
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And so Justin would want to emulate him
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but he would never feel worthy of him
because of what's brewing inside of him.
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It wouldn't matter to Norman
because he's such a good man
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that he would forgive his adopted son
anything and try to bring him to Christ.
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Justin, please...
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you must turn away from all this
before it's too late.
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Turn away from what?
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Say it.
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Justin, there is a demon within you.
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Let me help you.
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And just sort of provides
this human link.
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Where Iris and Justin have the
avataric blood,Norman's just human.
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And I think that's the importance
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of the last scene
between Justin and Norman in the tent.
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Justin finally severs his ties
with humanity when he kills Norman.
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The power of Christ compels you.
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Behold! The holy evil is come!
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With Justin and Iris, they were
the children of Belyakov, from Russia.
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Iris was first-born, she's about
six years older than Justin,
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so she's the protective
older sister.
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Since she's the child of an avatar
she has avatar blood in her
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but only first-born males can
be avatars as far as anybody knows,
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so she's a vectori,
where she carries the blood
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so, you know, her children
will have blood as well,
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and if a dynasty dies out
a new avatar can pop up somewhere
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out of a family that has
avataric blood within it.
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So at some point when a mother
gives birth to an avatar
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she becomes crazy.
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Something to do with
the power of the avatar,
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something renders the mother
barren and insane.
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So all we really know about
the childhood of Iris and Justin
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is their mother said that Belyakov
was an evil man.
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So she took them and fled to America.
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And they were in a train accident,
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everybody died on the train
except for Iris and Justin.
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They found a Russian survivor and
Justin used his powers to kill this man
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and then blocked it
from his memory.
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But Iris knew about it, so she knew
that Justin could do great things.
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You really should have knocked.
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For a very long time she was completely
devoted to her brother
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and to everything Brother Justin stood for
and everything he believed in,
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and in fact she was
sort of the power behind...
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in some ways the power
behind the man.
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And then at a certain point,
I think she changed.
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I'm sorry, Alexi.
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I can't give you what you want.
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What is it you think I want?
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Remorse.
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Regret.
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And I would do it again for you.
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The relationship between Iris
and Justin is so complicated
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and has so many elements to it.
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I mean, there's the implication
of the incest between them
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and there are the competing desires
that they each have
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to fulfil their own needs.
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I think that in this case, yeah,
that episode was kind of a turning point
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where Iris started to feel like Justin was
going to basically hang her out to dry
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and she wasn't gonna stand for that.
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Iris is an interesting character because,
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again it's the dual nature of the character,
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on the surface she's this God-fearing,
you know, a spinster.
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But underneath she's probably the most
evil character on the whole show.
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When he discovered that she had
set the fire that killed the kids
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she became a liability
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- and so he began to...
- Cut her out.
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And that betrayal went to her core.
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And I think that it then challenged her loyalty
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and that's why, you know,
she acts pretty crazy that second season.
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Because she's grasping at things.
She's looking for her own power.
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I need to speak with you.
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I was proud of what you did today.
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Such courage.
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Only you and I know his true nature.
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Our knowledge is his weakness.
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But Amy - this is how good
an actress she is in the final scene -
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when she's feeding Norman she says...
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When I die I'm going to hell.
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And if I'm very, very fortunate
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my brother will be waiting for me
with an embrace.
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And it is the creepiest moment
in the whole show.
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You realise that she does love him.
238
00:17:05,773 --> 00:17:08,810
She realises how bad he is
239
00:17:08,853 --> 00:17:12,732
but she knows that they're both doomed.
240
00:17:12,773 --> 00:17:17,893
But maybe, if we're lucky,
we'll both die, we'll have peace
241
00:17:17,933 --> 00:17:21,005
and we'll spend eternity in hell together.
242
00:17:22,013 --> 00:17:23,969
That's really scary.
243
00:17:28,013 --> 00:17:31,892
I feel that you haven't
quite surrendered to the call.
244
00:17:34,173 --> 00:17:36,403
There's still some doubt within you...
245
00:17:39,013 --> 00:17:40,731
Sofie.
246
00:17:40,773 --> 00:17:45,210
So Sofie becomes the most interesting
character in season two.
247
00:17:45,253 --> 00:17:50,486
Obviously in season one
she was the familiar of Ben
248
00:17:50,533 --> 00:17:53,889
and we see the relationship
between her and her mom.
249
00:17:53,933 --> 00:17:56,527
Apollonia's an interesting character.
250
00:17:56,573 --> 00:18:01,249
She has powers of her own -
the ability to see the future, see the past.
251
00:18:01,293 --> 00:18:04,012
And when she gave birth to Sofie
as the Omega
252
00:18:04,053 --> 00:18:07,568
she had the same problem
that any mother of an avatar has,
253
00:18:07,613 --> 00:18:09,490
of being rendered insane.
254
00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:14,653
ln the case of Apollonia, her insanity
seems to take the case of catatonia.
255
00:18:14,693 --> 00:18:19,972
She's conscious but she's not able to interact
with the world around her using her body
256
00:18:20,013 --> 00:18:24,325
except for the one instance
where she says to Ben "You're the one".
257
00:18:24,373 --> 00:18:26,364
She knows Ben's an avatar.
258
00:18:26,413 --> 00:18:29,450
You know, probably knows that
he's a creature of light.
259
00:18:29,493 --> 00:18:32,530
Probably knows he has a role to play
with her daughter.
260
00:18:32,573 --> 00:18:35,645
She's the only character
that knows Sofie's the Omega.
261
00:18:35,693 --> 00:18:39,208
Apollonia definitely
was trying to keep
262
00:18:41,533 --> 00:18:44,491
my character from realising
what she was
263
00:18:44,533 --> 00:18:46,763
and realising her responsibility.
264
00:18:46,813 --> 00:18:50,123
You best be careful
what you say to me, Momma.
265
00:18:50,173 --> 00:18:52,448
I'm not in a very
forgiving mood today.
266
00:18:54,933 --> 00:18:58,448
She's trying to drive Sofie mad,
trying to drive Sofie to suicide,
267
00:18:58,493 --> 00:19:02,202
that's what she's doing. And...
268
00:19:03,453 --> 00:19:08,208
she's trying her best to keep her
from fulfilling any kind of destiny
269
00:19:08,253 --> 00:19:10,642
or going any further along that path.
270
00:19:10,693 --> 00:19:14,606
Just before Appy had decided to try
to kill Sofie at the end of season one
271
00:19:15,053 --> 00:19:18,250
she had told Lodz something,
and Lodz was sort of,
272
00:19:18,293 --> 00:19:21,046
"That's impossible.
That can't be true."
273
00:19:21,093 --> 00:19:23,687
So what we think is,
she had told Lodz
274
00:19:23,733 --> 00:19:26,770
that Sofie is the Omega,
she's an avatar.
275
00:19:26,813 --> 00:19:30,852
As far as Lodz and anybody else
steeped in avatar lore is concerned,
276
00:19:30,893 --> 00:19:33,282
avatars could only be male,
so he was like,
277
00:19:33,333 --> 00:19:35,483
"Well, that's stupid. That's idiotic."
278
00:19:35,533 --> 00:19:38,570
But with the extra knowledge
gained from dying
279
00:19:38,613 --> 00:19:41,685
cos he died at the end of season one
but he's still around,
280
00:19:41,733 --> 00:19:46,011
so he has a new perspective on things
so he knows Sofie is the Omega.
281
00:19:52,093 --> 00:19:55,449
The beginning of season two
she is bereft,
282
00:19:55,493 --> 00:19:58,007
she has none of what she was familiar with.
283
00:19:58,053 --> 00:20:03,047
As awful as that situation might have
been with her mom she has nothing left.
284
00:20:03,093 --> 00:20:05,891
It left my character with
so many questions
285
00:20:05,933 --> 00:20:09,642
and so much, you know,
sadness and anger and confusion
286
00:20:09,693 --> 00:20:14,050
that, you know, not understanding
why she would do something like that.
287
00:20:14,093 --> 00:20:17,324
And at the same time
being the only thing I really had.
288
00:20:17,373 --> 00:20:20,968
And with her being gone
it sort of made me think
289
00:20:21,013 --> 00:20:25,165
like, what am I doing here?
I have no connection to anything now.
290
00:20:27,493 --> 00:20:28,892
What?
291
00:20:28,933 --> 00:20:31,003
We can't stay in this
truck all night.
292
00:20:35,533 --> 00:20:38,127
It was finally a culmination
after two years
293
00:20:38,173 --> 00:20:41,051
and we knew that people
wanted to see them do this.
294
00:20:41,093 --> 00:20:45,006
You know, have sex, and we
knew that they were both avatars
295
00:20:45,053 --> 00:20:47,248
so we'd joke about avataric sex.
296
00:20:47,293 --> 00:20:50,410
And we talked about,
OK, if they are gonna have sex
297
00:20:50,453 --> 00:20:53,126
then something big is gonna have to happen.
298
00:20:53,173 --> 00:20:57,769
lt's going to affect the heavens,
which is why we have a huge rainstorm.
299
00:20:57,813 --> 00:21:01,601
We hadn't had rain in the show
up until that moment.
300
00:21:03,773 --> 00:21:05,126
Rain.
301
00:21:05,173 --> 00:21:09,052
The heavens burst open
and suddenly it's like a miracle.
302
00:21:09,093 --> 00:21:11,243
The light and the dark
have come together.
303
00:21:11,293 --> 00:21:14,888
I think part of the way we sort of
structured the whole episode too,
304
00:21:14,933 --> 00:21:17,367
we put them in the truck together
305
00:21:17,413 --> 00:21:22,203
for the majority of the episode so
that we could build the sexual tension.
306
00:21:22,253 --> 00:21:27,771
Before this episode these characters
had gone off and done so much else
307
00:21:27,813 --> 00:21:31,169
that we had to really bring
them back together
308
00:21:31,213 --> 00:21:34,842
and really have to be exposed
to each other,
309
00:21:34,893 --> 00:21:38,852
and share their own
sense of isolation
310
00:21:38,893 --> 00:21:42,010
and being different
from everybody else.
311
00:21:42,053 --> 00:21:44,328
And that also brings
them together.
312
00:21:44,373 --> 00:21:49,128
There's a little bit of an exorcism...
There's definitely that element of it.
313
00:21:49,173 --> 00:21:53,485
Sort of freeing me
from being haunted by my mother.
314
00:21:55,293 --> 00:21:59,366
But it's also because we are opposites.
315
00:21:59,413 --> 00:22:02,644
Like, we both have that kind of...
316
00:22:04,853 --> 00:22:08,926
supernatural power, the combination
of the two is, like...
317
00:22:10,373 --> 00:22:11,362
explosive.
318
00:22:13,453 --> 00:22:16,809
We felt that that is the moment
that releases her.
319
00:22:17,613 --> 00:22:21,686
Almost, you know, she had to
sleep with... She sleeps with Ben,
320
00:22:21,733 --> 00:22:24,725
and then after that
there is nothing left.
321
00:22:24,773 --> 00:22:27,810
That was... There are no more connections.
322
00:22:27,853 --> 00:22:31,528
And just as the rain stops
Brother Justin comes on the radio.
323
00:22:32,853 --> 00:22:36,846
Let the wicked man
forsake his ways.
324
00:22:36,893 --> 00:22:39,123
Suddenly the darkness again.
325
00:22:43,933 --> 00:22:48,484
Trees are really open to
symbolic manifestations.
326
00:22:48,533 --> 00:22:53,448
lt's got its roots in the soil,
its leaves reaching to the sky.
327
00:22:54,253 --> 00:22:57,051
And so, darkness reaching
for light.
328
00:22:57,093 --> 00:23:00,881
You have the mythologies of
the Tree of Life,Tree of Knowledge.
329
00:23:00,933 --> 00:23:02,810
The branching of the trees,
330
00:23:02,853 --> 00:23:05,606
the dark heart dwelling
within the tree.
331
00:23:05,653 --> 00:23:08,963
lt's the tree of good and evil
at the centre of the garden.
332
00:23:09,013 --> 00:23:13,689
lt's one of those iconic things,
a dead twisted tree like that.
333
00:23:13,733 --> 00:23:15,405
There's a meaning there
334
00:23:15,453 --> 00:23:21,972
and that was really what prompted
me to place it on the chest.
335
00:23:22,013 --> 00:23:26,086
You know, this is where
you will build your empire,
336
00:23:26,133 --> 00:23:30,331
this is what it all boils
down to, is this tree.
337
00:23:30,373 --> 00:23:32,603
And it just had a certain power.
338
00:23:32,653 --> 00:23:36,805
At the end of season two our two main
characters have come together
339
00:23:36,853 --> 00:23:40,812
and have had what amounts
to their first battle.
340
00:23:40,853 --> 00:23:44,482
Both those characters,
whose avatars are adolescents,
341
00:23:44,533 --> 00:23:47,730
you know, they've really
just hit puberty.
342
00:23:47,773 --> 00:23:54,042
They become more complex as time
goes by,and the question becomes -
343
00:23:54,093 --> 00:23:58,609
who's really serving light
and who's really serving darkness?
344
00:23:58,653 --> 00:24:01,451
And what are their destinies
in their worlds?
345
00:24:01,493 --> 00:24:06,965
Everything had been building up to that point
and then the revelation of Sofie as the Omega.
346
00:24:07,013 --> 00:24:11,404
And by raising her father at the end,
bringing him back to life,
347
00:24:11,453 --> 00:24:16,368
it was going to indicate
that she was truly evil.
348
00:24:17,613 --> 00:24:22,482
What's interesting is she is the Omega
so there's good in her too.
349
00:24:22,533 --> 00:24:26,651
There was a lot of discussion as
to what Sofie feels about her powers.
350
00:24:26,693 --> 00:24:29,685
Does she understand that she's evil or not?
351
00:24:29,733 --> 00:24:33,612
Who will she be? And I think at the end
of the season we weren't sure.
352
00:24:33,653 --> 00:24:36,531
We knew that she was
going to be pivotal.
353
00:24:36,573 --> 00:24:41,203
And I think season three would have been
pretty much centred on Sofie
354
00:24:41,253 --> 00:24:45,212
and the internal struggle
of her good versus evil.
355
00:24:45,253 --> 00:24:50,407
Thinking that things have tied together,
and just that little bit at the end
356
00:24:50,453 --> 00:24:52,648
saying, "No, it's not what you think."
357
00:24:52,693 --> 00:24:55,002
Ben was left bleeding
358
00:24:55,053 --> 00:24:58,489
and found by the carnival driving away
but still breathing.
359
00:24:58,533 --> 00:25:02,845
Jonesy had gotten shot
but if you look at it closely
360
00:25:02,893 --> 00:25:06,169
he wasn't shot in a specific place.
He collapsed.
361
00:25:06,213 --> 00:25:09,489
They just opened up what happens
from this point forward.
362
00:25:13,893 --> 00:25:18,045
I don't know, as writers, if we'll
ever have the chance to work on a show
363
00:25:18,093 --> 00:25:22,689
that was that unusual,
that creative.
364
00:25:22,733 --> 00:25:27,204
And it just had these characters
that I think were deeply human.
365
00:25:27,893 --> 00:25:31,203
- And...
- Flawed and complicated.
366
00:25:31,253 --> 00:25:32,652
And real.
367
00:25:32,693 --> 00:25:36,766
It was a special series.
It will always be in my heart.
368
00:25:36,813 --> 00:25:40,442
There were a lot of people
that had creative input into the show
369
00:25:40,493 --> 00:25:44,452
and it was sort of like,
what I brought to it was a vessel.
370
00:25:44,493 --> 00:25:47,087
And it's like, does this fit in that vessel?
371
00:25:47,133 --> 00:25:50,205
Does this enhance it?
Does it make it work better?
372
00:25:50,253 --> 00:25:53,768
I had an itinerary for the show
and where I wanted to take it
373
00:25:53,813 --> 00:25:58,364
but, you know, creating it
was a collaborative process.
374
00:26:31,733 --> 00:26:32,722
English