1 00:00:03,870 --> 00:00:05,638 announcer: The following is a presentation 2 00:00:05,705 --> 00:00:07,474 of HBO Sports. 3 00:00:11,144 --> 00:00:14,080 [dramatic music] 4 00:00:14,147 --> 00:00:20,120 ♪ ♪ 5 00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:23,556 - Tonight on "Real Sports"... 6 00:00:23,623 --> 00:00:24,958 competitive youth cheerleading 7 00:00:25,024 --> 00:00:27,761 is drawing lots of eager, young athletes these days 8 00:00:27,827 --> 00:00:30,930 but also drawing a frightening number of sexual predators. 9 00:00:30,997 --> 00:00:32,399 - This guy had already been charged 10 00:00:32,465 --> 00:00:33,767 with sexually assaulting a young girl? 11 00:00:33,833 --> 00:00:34,968 - Yes, yes. 12 00:00:35,034 --> 00:00:36,169 - And still, 13 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:38,405 he's able to stroll through all kinds of gyms in Texas? 14 00:00:38,471 --> 00:00:40,273 - Mm-hmm. I was very shocked. 15 00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:41,508 ♪ ♪ 16 00:00:41,574 --> 00:00:44,878 - The matter of how and when police officers use force 17 00:00:44,944 --> 00:00:46,646 is a problem nationwide. 18 00:00:46,713 --> 00:00:48,515 The broad search for a solution 19 00:00:48,581 --> 00:00:50,583 has even reached the world of sports. 20 00:00:50,650 --> 00:00:52,118 - How does anybody expect an officer 21 00:00:52,185 --> 00:00:54,554 to take a violent, resisting person into custody 22 00:00:54,621 --> 00:00:57,791 if we don't give them the tools to do so? 23 00:00:57,857 --> 00:00:59,793 And we know how to teach people 24 00:00:59,859 --> 00:01:01,928 how to do this particular task. 25 00:01:01,995 --> 00:01:03,096 ♪ ♪ 26 00:01:03,163 --> 00:01:05,064 - Once a quaint hobby for kids, 27 00:01:05,131 --> 00:01:08,001 the trading of sports cards is today big business 28 00:01:08,067 --> 00:01:10,036 with pieces of cardboard being treated 29 00:01:10,103 --> 00:01:11,604 like master works of art. 30 00:01:11,671 --> 00:01:13,373 - My friends, my generation, 31 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,041 I don't think we're gonna grow up 32 00:01:15,108 --> 00:01:17,010 wanting a Pollock or a Monet or a Picasso. 33 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:19,345 I think they're gonna want, like, a Jordan rookie card 34 00:01:19,412 --> 00:01:22,215 or a Giannis or a Luka or a Hank Aaron. 35 00:01:22,282 --> 00:01:29,289 ♪ ♪ 36 00:01:32,058 --> 00:01:33,193 announcer: And now, 37 00:01:33,259 --> 00:01:35,995 from the HBO "Real Sports" studio in New York, 38 00:01:36,062 --> 00:01:39,432 your host, Bryant Gumbel. 39 00:01:39,499 --> 00:01:41,868 - Good evening and welcome to "Real Sports," 40 00:01:41,935 --> 00:01:44,237 where we are taking advantage of the dog days of summer 41 00:01:44,304 --> 00:01:47,574 tonight to deviate from our usual four-story format 42 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,943 and instead explore three issues in depth, 43 00:01:50,009 --> 00:01:51,411 one relating to the booming business 44 00:01:51,478 --> 00:01:53,079 of sports collectibles, 45 00:01:53,146 --> 00:01:55,081 one focusing on the ongoing problem 46 00:01:55,148 --> 00:01:58,985 of cops using excessive force, and our first story, 47 00:01:59,052 --> 00:02:01,855 which is about cheerleading and sexual predators. 48 00:02:01,921 --> 00:02:04,657 Competitive youth cheerleading is a fast-growing sport 49 00:02:04,724 --> 00:02:07,927 involving over 150,000 athletes. 50 00:02:07,994 --> 00:02:10,330 Unfortunately, it has become the latest sport 51 00:02:10,396 --> 00:02:12,866 to have been infiltrated by sexual predators 52 00:02:12,932 --> 00:02:16,503 who are seeking easy access to trusting children. 53 00:02:16,569 --> 00:02:19,472 Compounding the problem is the sad reality 54 00:02:19,539 --> 00:02:21,441 that those charged with protecting the children 55 00:02:21,508 --> 00:02:25,178 and policing the sport seem to be failing their kids. 56 00:02:25,245 --> 00:02:27,780 Our Mary Carillo has that story. 57 00:02:27,847 --> 00:02:29,148 - One and three! 58 00:02:29,215 --> 00:02:31,751 - For Brooklyn Huckeba, there's always been one place 59 00:02:31,818 --> 00:02:34,721 she felt comfortable and safe. 60 00:02:34,787 --> 00:02:35,822 - When I was five, 61 00:02:35,889 --> 00:02:37,790 I went to my first cheer gym and absolutely loved it. 62 00:02:37,857 --> 00:02:40,193 - Right away? - I did. 63 00:02:40,260 --> 00:02:43,429 - From then on, Brooklyn never wanted to leave the local gym. 64 00:02:43,496 --> 00:02:45,965 She began training seven days a week 65 00:02:46,032 --> 00:02:47,567 and grew into a budding star 66 00:02:47,634 --> 00:02:49,569 in the world of All Star Cheer... 67 00:02:49,636 --> 00:02:51,371 - Hey, look at that early tumbling there-- 68 00:02:51,437 --> 00:02:53,306 synchronized, beautiful. 69 00:02:53,373 --> 00:02:55,375 - The competitive division of cheerleading 70 00:02:55,441 --> 00:02:57,810 in which travel teams from across the country 71 00:02:57,877 --> 00:03:01,114 flip, kick, and spin their way to glory. 72 00:03:01,180 --> 00:03:04,450 So, when two years ago, at the age of 14, 73 00:03:04,517 --> 00:03:06,486 Brooklyn met a top men's cheerleader 74 00:03:06,553 --> 00:03:09,088 who offered to coach her up to his level, 75 00:03:09,155 --> 00:03:11,224 she was thrilled. 76 00:03:11,291 --> 00:03:12,225 - It was really cool 77 00:03:12,292 --> 00:03:15,595 seeing somebody do all these amazing flips. 78 00:03:15,662 --> 00:03:18,031 And you kind of just automatically look up to them. 79 00:03:18,097 --> 00:03:21,267 - So you assume, "This guy can really help my game"? 80 00:03:21,334 --> 00:03:22,735 - Mm-hmm. Yeah. 81 00:03:22,802 --> 00:03:25,071 - Brooklyn thought she'd found a mentor. 82 00:03:25,138 --> 00:03:27,440 That is, until a few hours later, 83 00:03:27,507 --> 00:03:30,710 when her would-be coach found her on social media 84 00:03:30,777 --> 00:03:34,180 and began sending sexually explicit messages, 85 00:03:34,247 --> 00:03:37,617 first requesting naked photos of the 14-year-old, 86 00:03:37,684 --> 00:03:40,153 then proposing, in graphic terms, 87 00:03:40,219 --> 00:03:42,055 that the two have sex. 88 00:03:42,121 --> 00:03:44,390 - The first overwhelming feeling I had was, 89 00:03:44,457 --> 00:03:46,759 "This is gross. This is disgusting." 90 00:03:46,826 --> 00:03:49,662 And it was nothing I had ever experienced. 91 00:03:49,729 --> 00:03:51,864 And it did make me very angry. 92 00:03:51,931 --> 00:03:55,234 - Brooklyn's mother, Shannon, says she was angry, too, 93 00:03:55,301 --> 00:03:57,036 especially after she discovered 94 00:03:57,103 --> 00:03:59,539 that the man her daughter met at the gym, 95 00:03:59,606 --> 00:04:02,909 Kale Dunlap, was an apparent sexual predator 96 00:04:02,976 --> 00:04:06,412 with a rap sheet available to anyone who cared to see it. 97 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:09,282 - I ran a background check on him through public data. 98 00:04:09,349 --> 00:04:13,419 I found that he had two sexual assault charges. 99 00:04:13,486 --> 00:04:15,254 - Was it easy to find that information? 100 00:04:15,321 --> 00:04:17,056 - Absolutely. Two minutes. 101 00:04:17,123 --> 00:04:19,258 - This guy had already been charged 102 00:04:19,325 --> 00:04:20,793 with sexually assaulting a young girl. 103 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:22,095 - Yes, yes. 104 00:04:22,161 --> 00:04:23,296 - And still, 105 00:04:23,363 --> 00:04:25,665 he's able to stroll through all kinds of gyms in Texas? 106 00:04:25,732 --> 00:04:27,934 - Mm-hmm. I was very shocked. 107 00:04:28,001 --> 00:04:29,869 - Particularly, Shannon says, 108 00:04:29,936 --> 00:04:32,038 because the gym where Brooklyn met the man 109 00:04:32,105 --> 00:04:34,340 was supposed to be a safe haven. 110 00:04:34,407 --> 00:04:35,942 It was overseen 111 00:04:36,009 --> 00:04:38,311 by the United States All Star Federation, 112 00:04:38,378 --> 00:04:40,179 or USASF, 113 00:04:40,246 --> 00:04:42,248 the national governing body 114 00:04:42,315 --> 00:04:44,717 for the sport of All Star Cheer. 115 00:04:44,784 --> 00:04:48,054 USASF's mandate is to write the sport's rulebook 116 00:04:48,121 --> 00:04:50,289 and regulate thousands of member gyms 117 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:52,558 and competitions nationwide 118 00:04:52,625 --> 00:04:56,496 in order to protect its 150,000 young athletes. 119 00:04:56,562 --> 00:04:58,598 - The USASF-- 120 00:04:58,665 --> 00:05:02,969 providing a safer environment to train and compete. 121 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:04,103 - Did you assume that 122 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:06,139 there were all kinds of safety protocols in place? 123 00:05:06,205 --> 00:05:08,174 - Well, I did, because we had to actually have 124 00:05:08,241 --> 00:05:09,709 a membership with USASF, 125 00:05:09,776 --> 00:05:10,943 and you just assume 126 00:05:11,010 --> 00:05:13,746 that they're gonna keep our athletes safe. 127 00:05:13,813 --> 00:05:16,382 - So Shannon contacted USASF 128 00:05:16,449 --> 00:05:17,750 to ask why a man 129 00:05:17,817 --> 00:05:20,687 facing multiple charges of sexual assault 130 00:05:20,753 --> 00:05:23,389 hadn't yet been barred from their gyms. 131 00:05:23,456 --> 00:05:24,724 You must've assumed, 132 00:05:24,791 --> 00:05:26,426 "Okay, something's gonna happen right away." 133 00:05:26,492 --> 00:05:27,593 - You do. 134 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:30,396 And in the meantime, we had found a girl in East Texas 135 00:05:30,463 --> 00:05:32,331 who also proceeded to file charges, 136 00:05:32,398 --> 00:05:34,434 and he was arrested for those a month later, 137 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:37,236 and I let them know about that, and nothing. 138 00:05:37,303 --> 00:05:38,771 Absolutely nothing. 139 00:05:38,838 --> 00:05:41,541 - Yes, despite the mounting tide of evidence 140 00:05:41,607 --> 00:05:42,742 against Dunlap, 141 00:05:42,809 --> 00:05:47,013 he remained free to operate at USASF gyms. 142 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,081 And he wasn't alone. 143 00:05:48,147 --> 00:05:50,883 Around that time, a "USA Today" report 144 00:05:50,950 --> 00:05:53,119 identified a long list of individuals 145 00:05:53,186 --> 00:05:54,654 in youth cheerleading 146 00:05:54,721 --> 00:05:57,957 who'd been charged with or convicted of sex crimes, 147 00:05:58,024 --> 00:06:01,627 scores of whom were affiliated with USASF, 148 00:06:01,694 --> 00:06:05,198 yet still hadn't been banned by the sport's governing body. 149 00:06:05,264 --> 00:06:07,166 But even as reports of sexual abuse 150 00:06:07,233 --> 00:06:09,469 flooded into USASF, 151 00:06:09,535 --> 00:06:11,370 one former insider says 152 00:06:11,437 --> 00:06:15,041 the organization was doing very little about them. 153 00:06:15,108 --> 00:06:16,242 - Over the course of a year, 154 00:06:16,309 --> 00:06:20,913 there were over 100 individuals that were reported. 155 00:06:20,980 --> 00:06:23,716 And sometimes those individuals had more than one report. 156 00:06:23,783 --> 00:06:25,384 - How big a staff should've been there 157 00:06:25,451 --> 00:06:27,019 to handle all of these problems? 158 00:06:27,086 --> 00:06:30,323 - I think a minimum of five people was necessary. 159 00:06:30,389 --> 00:06:32,225 - That wasn't even close to what it was. 160 00:06:32,291 --> 00:06:34,627 It was you. - It wasn't even me. 161 00:06:34,694 --> 00:06:37,230 - That's because Ginger Wilczak wasn't just 162 00:06:37,296 --> 00:06:41,501 the one and only person USASF had hired to handle the issue. 163 00:06:41,567 --> 00:06:45,238 She says she'd been hired on a strictly part-time basis 164 00:06:45,304 --> 00:06:49,776 to work only a few hours each week on the exploding crisis. 165 00:06:49,842 --> 00:06:52,278 A career expert in child protection, 166 00:06:52,345 --> 00:06:55,414 Wilczak had been brought on in 2019, 167 00:06:55,481 --> 00:06:58,818 in theory to weed predators out of the sport. 168 00:06:58,885 --> 00:07:01,521 - I really thought that USASF was trying to bring in 169 00:07:01,587 --> 00:07:02,955 an impartial person 170 00:07:03,022 --> 00:07:06,859 who had the experience and the education to do the job 171 00:07:06,926 --> 00:07:09,495 the way that it needed to be done. 172 00:07:09,562 --> 00:07:12,398 But that is not the reality of what happened. 173 00:07:12,465 --> 00:07:15,301 - At what point in your job did you realize 174 00:07:15,368 --> 00:07:17,570 that this wasn't the job you'd signed up for? 175 00:07:17,637 --> 00:07:20,773 - Within the first few weeks. - Really? 176 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,609 - It does not take long for the shackles to be put on 177 00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:26,078 for what you can do and what you can say. 178 00:07:26,145 --> 00:07:28,948 - Wilczak says that despite her expertise, 179 00:07:29,015 --> 00:07:32,018 officials at USASF limited her input 180 00:07:32,084 --> 00:07:34,954 and routinely rejected her recommendations, 181 00:07:35,021 --> 00:07:39,392 like when she proposed banning Kale Dunlap from USASF gyms. 182 00:07:39,458 --> 00:07:41,594 Instead, he was left eligible. 183 00:07:41,661 --> 00:07:44,430 - Why even bring me in? 184 00:07:44,497 --> 00:07:47,567 Why even bring me in? - And then muzzle you? 185 00:07:47,633 --> 00:07:50,069 - When all these cases were piling up, Ginger, 186 00:07:50,136 --> 00:07:53,372 and it was on you to be talking to the victims, 187 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:55,107 to the parents of the victims, 188 00:07:55,174 --> 00:07:58,177 what did you end up saying to these people? 189 00:07:58,244 --> 00:08:01,314 - There were a lot of days I didn't answer the phone... 190 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:03,549 because I didn't know what to say. 191 00:08:03,616 --> 00:08:07,420 - So did USASF hire you as window dressing? 192 00:08:07,486 --> 00:08:08,888 - I think so. 193 00:08:08,955 --> 00:08:10,723 I think it was the name and the credentials, 194 00:08:10,790 --> 00:08:12,124 and that was all they wanted. 195 00:08:12,191 --> 00:08:13,960 Had I been allowed to do the job 196 00:08:14,026 --> 00:08:16,429 that I believed that I was brought in to do, 197 00:08:16,495 --> 00:08:18,798 things would have turned out much differently. 198 00:08:18,865 --> 00:08:20,566 - Wilczak says she'd wanted 199 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:23,402 to create the kind of child protection division 200 00:08:23,469 --> 00:08:25,371 common in the other organizations 201 00:08:25,438 --> 00:08:27,807 that govern youth sports in America, 202 00:08:27,874 --> 00:08:30,543 from USA Baseball to USA Volleyball, 203 00:08:30,610 --> 00:08:34,547 from USA Fencing to U.S. Figure Skating. 204 00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:37,750 Those organizations are all supervised by Congress 205 00:08:37,817 --> 00:08:41,087 and must answer to lawmakers on all matters, 206 00:08:41,153 --> 00:08:43,990 including their policing of sexual assault. 207 00:08:44,056 --> 00:08:47,093 - The governing bodies of these sports 208 00:08:47,159 --> 00:08:51,197 bear a very serious responsibility. 209 00:08:51,264 --> 00:08:54,400 - But what Wilczak didn't know at the time was that, 210 00:08:54,467 --> 00:08:59,071 while USASF may look and sound like those governing bodies, 211 00:08:59,138 --> 00:09:00,973 it's actually very different. 212 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,510 USASF is overseen not by Congress, 213 00:09:04,577 --> 00:09:06,512 but by the lords of cheerleading, 214 00:09:06,579 --> 00:09:08,247 and some insiders say 215 00:09:08,314 --> 00:09:11,517 its primary focus is not child safety 216 00:09:11,584 --> 00:09:14,353 but profits for the massive corporation 217 00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:16,289 that rules over the sport. 218 00:09:16,355 --> 00:09:18,858 - The priority was protect the brand. 219 00:09:18,925 --> 00:09:20,993 - Not the child? - Correct. 220 00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:23,396 - For two decades, Marlene Cota worked 221 00:09:23,462 --> 00:09:26,065 as a vice president at Varsity Spirit, 222 00:09:26,132 --> 00:09:28,567 helping the company dominate the industry 223 00:09:28,634 --> 00:09:31,737 like few companies in any industry do. 224 00:09:31,804 --> 00:09:36,342 - 90% to 95% of the business of cheerleading 225 00:09:36,409 --> 00:09:38,244 is controlled by Varsity. 226 00:09:38,311 --> 00:09:40,313 - So from top to bottom, 227 00:09:40,379 --> 00:09:43,883 from the bows in their hair to all the events? 228 00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:45,685 - Ponytails to the toes. 229 00:09:45,751 --> 00:09:46,886 - In cheerleading, 230 00:09:46,953 --> 00:09:50,456 whether you buy this uniform or that one, 231 00:09:50,523 --> 00:09:53,859 attend this competition or that one, 232 00:09:53,926 --> 00:09:56,195 or head off to this summer camp 233 00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:58,130 or that one, 234 00:09:58,197 --> 00:10:00,266 you're paying Varsity either way 235 00:10:00,333 --> 00:10:02,535 because Varsity owns them all. 236 00:10:02,601 --> 00:10:05,104 But Varsity's influence within the sport 237 00:10:05,171 --> 00:10:06,706 reached a whole other level 238 00:10:06,772 --> 00:10:11,477 when they created USASF to rule over All Star Cheer. 239 00:10:11,544 --> 00:10:14,747 Varsity says they did it to make the sport safer. 240 00:10:14,814 --> 00:10:17,416 Cota says they had another objective-- 241 00:10:17,483 --> 00:10:20,119 to ensure that as the rules of the sport 242 00:10:20,186 --> 00:10:21,320 were being drawn up, 243 00:10:21,387 --> 00:10:23,723 they would always favor Varsity. 244 00:10:23,789 --> 00:10:26,192 - They created a governing body 245 00:10:26,258 --> 00:10:29,362 so that they could manage 246 00:10:29,428 --> 00:10:33,332 how they were going to keep that growth, 247 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:35,301 that machine going. 248 00:10:35,368 --> 00:10:37,570 - Did anyone see an issue with a massive, 249 00:10:37,636 --> 00:10:39,071 multibillion-dollar corporation 250 00:10:39,138 --> 00:10:40,973 creating the governing body? 251 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,208 - No. 252 00:10:42,274 --> 00:10:46,479 You know, the directive was always profit, profit, profit. 253 00:10:46,545 --> 00:10:49,849 - So what is the USASF in your eyes? 254 00:10:49,915 --> 00:10:54,286 - It's just another appendage of Varsity. 255 00:10:54,353 --> 00:10:58,357 - It's a $2 billion organization 256 00:10:58,424 --> 00:11:00,893 who has essentially set up 257 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,729 their own "governing body" 258 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:08,734 in order to police their own creation. 259 00:11:08,801 --> 00:11:10,870 - Sarah Klein has investigated 260 00:11:10,936 --> 00:11:13,939 USASF's child protection program 261 00:11:14,006 --> 00:11:16,942 as an advocate for victims of sexual assault, 262 00:11:17,009 --> 00:11:19,145 a role she took on a few years ago 263 00:11:19,211 --> 00:11:22,615 not long after coming forward as the first known victim 264 00:11:22,681 --> 00:11:24,216 of gymnastics doctor 265 00:11:24,283 --> 00:11:27,353 and serial sexual predator Larry Nassar... 266 00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:28,788 - My name is Sarah Klein. 267 00:11:28,854 --> 00:11:32,591 Larry Nassar abused me from age 8 through age 25... 268 00:11:32,658 --> 00:11:35,528 - Making her one of the hundreds molested 269 00:11:35,594 --> 00:11:38,964 while gymnastics' governing body sat idly by. 270 00:11:39,031 --> 00:11:41,267 You are well aware of what has happened 271 00:11:41,333 --> 00:11:42,435 in the world of gymnastics. 272 00:11:42,501 --> 00:11:44,236 You were a victim yourself. 273 00:11:44,303 --> 00:11:47,573 Is cheerleading even worse? - Yes. 274 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,275 Because what I know about my work 275 00:11:49,341 --> 00:11:51,911 and what I know about my personal experience 276 00:11:51,977 --> 00:11:56,615 is pedophiles will find the path of least resistance. 277 00:11:56,682 --> 00:11:59,285 And just the very structure of this sport 278 00:11:59,351 --> 00:12:02,855 allows this to happen. 279 00:12:02,922 --> 00:12:05,591 It's really sort of a breeding ground 280 00:12:05,658 --> 00:12:07,660 for pedophiles. 281 00:12:07,726 --> 00:12:08,894 [camera shutters clicking] 282 00:12:08,961 --> 00:12:12,631 - The Nassar scandal exploded in 2017. 283 00:12:12,698 --> 00:12:14,266 Yet, even amidst the fallout, 284 00:12:14,333 --> 00:12:17,503 few publicly questioned if a crisis could take root 285 00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:19,738 in the world of All Star Cheer. 286 00:12:19,805 --> 00:12:22,942 On the contrary, the sport was enjoying a boom, 287 00:12:23,008 --> 00:12:25,644 reaching a fever pitch last year 288 00:12:25,711 --> 00:12:27,413 when cheerleading became the subject 289 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,116 of a runaway hit series on Netflix... 290 00:12:30,182 --> 00:12:33,052 - If you haven't watched this show, it is amazing. 291 00:12:33,119 --> 00:12:36,622 - A development that promised to deliver even greater renown 292 00:12:36,689 --> 00:12:40,593 and profitability and excited everyone in the sport. 293 00:12:40,659 --> 00:12:44,430 - I kind of binge-watched the Netflix show, 294 00:12:44,497 --> 00:12:46,465 and I was really excited about it. 295 00:12:46,532 --> 00:12:49,768 - So you must've thought, "God, what a showcase this is 296 00:12:49,835 --> 00:12:52,705 for the sport my twins love." - Mm-hmm. Yeah. 297 00:12:52,771 --> 00:12:56,609 - But Kristen, who asked that we not use her last name, 298 00:12:56,675 --> 00:13:00,112 was confused when her twin 13-year-old sons, 299 00:13:00,179 --> 00:13:02,615 both avid cheerleaders, told her 300 00:13:02,681 --> 00:13:05,050 they were not interested in watching the show. 301 00:13:05,117 --> 00:13:08,988 - They didn't jump in with the degree of enthusiasm 302 00:13:09,054 --> 00:13:10,589 about the Netflix show 303 00:13:10,656 --> 00:13:13,225 that everybody else seemed to have, 304 00:13:13,292 --> 00:13:16,428 which at the time, I was kind of surprised by. 305 00:13:16,495 --> 00:13:18,063 - You didn't know that they'd been victimized 306 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:19,598 by one of the stars of the show. 307 00:13:19,665 --> 00:13:21,033 - No, I didn't. 308 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:23,335 - That star was Jerry Harris, 309 00:13:23,402 --> 00:13:25,671 a bubbly and beloved fan favorite, 310 00:13:25,738 --> 00:13:29,275 whose Netflix appearance made him an overnight celebrity. 311 00:13:29,341 --> 00:13:30,943 Working the red carpet... 312 00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:32,344 - Hi! - Hey, how are you doing? 313 00:13:32,411 --> 00:13:33,913 - Nice to meet you! - How you doing? 314 00:13:33,979 --> 00:13:35,581 - Appearing on talk shows... 315 00:13:35,648 --> 00:13:37,383 - Jerry, you were part of this, by the way. 316 00:13:37,449 --> 00:13:39,385 - Yeah. [laughter] 317 00:13:39,451 --> 00:13:41,020 - Even winning over the president. 318 00:13:41,086 --> 00:13:42,721 - We could meet one another for real. 319 00:13:42,788 --> 00:13:45,491 - Absolutely, absolutely! I would love that. 320 00:13:45,558 --> 00:13:49,428 - But Harris had apparently been using his newfound fame 321 00:13:49,495 --> 00:13:51,130 for another purpose, too-- 322 00:13:51,197 --> 00:13:54,567 to sexually harass young boys in the sport. 323 00:13:54,633 --> 00:13:56,335 - I saw a text message thread 324 00:13:56,402 --> 00:14:00,339 between my son Charlie and Jerry 325 00:14:00,406 --> 00:14:01,574 that concerned me. 326 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,078 And that was when I found this folder filled with things 327 00:14:06,145 --> 00:14:08,981 related to his relationship with Jerry, 328 00:14:09,048 --> 00:14:13,319 including a video of... 329 00:14:13,385 --> 00:14:15,487 of Jerry masturbating. 330 00:14:15,554 --> 00:14:19,124 - Is that as bad as it gets for a mother? 331 00:14:19,191 --> 00:14:21,460 - It was pretty bad. 332 00:14:21,527 --> 00:14:23,262 - But it got even worse. 333 00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:25,598 Not only did Kristen find that Harris 334 00:14:25,664 --> 00:14:28,467 had been incessantly contacting both boys, 335 00:14:28,534 --> 00:14:31,904 asking for naked photos and sexual favors, 336 00:14:31,971 --> 00:14:33,906 but she learned that the cheerleading star 337 00:14:33,973 --> 00:14:36,375 had allegedly cornered one of her sons 338 00:14:36,442 --> 00:14:38,177 at a recent competition. 339 00:14:38,244 --> 00:14:41,280 - Jerry asked Charlie to go to the bathroom with him 340 00:14:41,347 --> 00:14:44,450 and took him in the back of the bathroom 341 00:14:44,516 --> 00:14:47,052 and very persistently pressured him there 342 00:14:47,119 --> 00:14:50,122 for oral sex. 343 00:14:50,189 --> 00:14:54,026 [voice breaking] Charlie has a hard time... 344 00:14:54,093 --> 00:14:56,128 talking about that incident, 345 00:14:56,195 --> 00:15:00,232 but Charlie was finally able to escape the situation 346 00:15:00,299 --> 00:15:02,134 and leave the bathroom. 347 00:15:02,201 --> 00:15:05,671 - Kristen reported the violation to USASF, 348 00:15:05,738 --> 00:15:07,740 delivering photographic evidence 349 00:15:07,806 --> 00:15:10,042 of Harris' lewd messages. 350 00:15:10,109 --> 00:15:12,578 Then she says she was told to be patient 351 00:15:12,645 --> 00:15:15,214 while USASF's experts conducted 352 00:15:15,281 --> 00:15:17,116 a proper investigation. 353 00:15:17,182 --> 00:15:19,385 But inside USASF, 354 00:15:19,451 --> 00:15:23,022 Ginger Wilczak says she was told to stand down 355 00:15:23,088 --> 00:15:25,324 and let her boss handle the matter. 356 00:15:25,391 --> 00:15:27,493 - When I saw the initial report, 357 00:15:27,559 --> 00:15:31,130 it came along with an email that said, 358 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:33,599 "Don't do anything on this case. 359 00:15:33,666 --> 00:15:34,667 I will handle it." 360 00:15:34,733 --> 00:15:37,269 - What would you have done 361 00:15:37,336 --> 00:15:40,105 if you had power over Jerry Harris? 362 00:15:40,172 --> 00:15:41,907 - He would've lost his eligibility 363 00:15:41,974 --> 00:15:44,610 as soon as I received that first report. 364 00:15:44,677 --> 00:15:47,713 - Instead, Harris stayed eligible for months 365 00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:49,782 and continued to make the rounds 366 00:15:49,848 --> 00:15:52,418 as the sport's most visible ambassador. 367 00:15:52,484 --> 00:15:55,020 All the while, prosecutors now say, 368 00:15:55,087 --> 00:15:57,956 he continued to abuse young victims. 369 00:15:58,023 --> 00:16:00,292 Varsity reported Harris to police-- 370 00:16:00,359 --> 00:16:03,395 they say shortly after they learned of the allegations. 371 00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:06,732 But USASF didn't finally ban Harris 372 00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:10,336 until his alleged crimes spilled into public view. 373 00:16:10,402 --> 00:16:12,037 - According to "USA Today," 374 00:16:12,104 --> 00:16:14,540 the star of the Netflix documentary "Cheer" 375 00:16:14,606 --> 00:16:17,209 is now reportedly under FBI investigation. 376 00:16:17,276 --> 00:16:20,679 - Do you believe because Jerry Harris was such a star 377 00:16:20,746 --> 00:16:24,216 in this world that that took precedence 378 00:16:24,283 --> 00:16:26,752 over what was happening to your boys? 379 00:16:26,819 --> 00:16:28,220 - Absolutely I do. 380 00:16:28,287 --> 00:16:32,725 Preserving him did become... 381 00:16:32,791 --> 00:16:33,959 more important 382 00:16:34,026 --> 00:16:37,963 than safeguarding not just my kids 383 00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:41,567 but the others 384 00:16:41,633 --> 00:16:43,535 that he was doing the same thing to. 385 00:16:43,602 --> 00:16:47,272 My kids couldn't sleep. They couldn't eat. 386 00:16:47,339 --> 00:16:51,643 They were dealing with the fallout of all of this, 387 00:16:51,710 --> 00:16:55,514 while Jerry, his star is continuing to rise, 388 00:16:55,581 --> 00:16:58,917 and Varsity Brands, USASF 389 00:16:58,984 --> 00:17:02,955 are all benefiting from that. 390 00:17:03,021 --> 00:17:05,124 - While Kristen's boys were still suffering 391 00:17:05,190 --> 00:17:07,259 in the aftermath of their abuse, 392 00:17:07,326 --> 00:17:10,763 young Brooklyn Huckeba was trying to recover, too, 393 00:17:10,829 --> 00:17:14,666 but was able to breathe easier when her abuser, Kale Dunlap, 394 00:17:14,733 --> 00:17:16,402 was put behind bars 395 00:17:16,468 --> 00:17:19,671 and finally suspended by USASF. 396 00:17:19,738 --> 00:17:21,039 - It was very relieving 397 00:17:21,106 --> 00:17:24,743 knowing that he wasn't going to come near me or anybody else. 398 00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:26,478 - But just months later, 399 00:17:26,545 --> 00:17:29,348 Brooklyn met another USASF member coach 400 00:17:29,415 --> 00:17:30,816 named Mitch Ryan. 401 00:17:30,883 --> 00:17:33,952 She says Ryan invited her to train with him at his home. 402 00:17:34,019 --> 00:17:35,954 But once the two were alone, 403 00:17:36,021 --> 00:17:38,457 she says Ryan offered her alcohol 404 00:17:38,524 --> 00:17:40,325 and then pulled her to him. 405 00:17:40,392 --> 00:17:41,593 - I moved away, 406 00:17:41,660 --> 00:17:44,663 and he immediately had just pulled me closer, 407 00:17:44,730 --> 00:17:47,065 and that's when I kind of lost all hope 408 00:17:47,132 --> 00:17:51,069 and kind of realized if he wants something, 409 00:17:51,136 --> 00:17:52,604 he's gonna get it. 410 00:17:52,671 --> 00:17:53,739 - Brooklyn says 411 00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:56,909 Ryan violently penetrated her with his fingers 412 00:17:56,975 --> 00:17:59,611 and forced her to perform oral sex. 413 00:17:59,678 --> 00:18:01,113 How bad did it get? 414 00:18:01,180 --> 00:18:03,615 - I had woken up the next morning 415 00:18:03,682 --> 00:18:06,218 and was bleeding. 416 00:18:06,285 --> 00:18:08,153 My tonsils were, like, bruised 417 00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:11,356 because of how hard he was holding me down. 418 00:18:11,423 --> 00:18:13,192 And I took a shower, 419 00:18:13,258 --> 00:18:15,894 and I just wanted to scrub every inch of my body, 420 00:18:15,961 --> 00:18:18,564 just trying to get the memories away. 421 00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:20,833 - Hoping to forget the ordeal, 422 00:18:20,899 --> 00:18:24,269 Brooklyn waited weeks to tell her mother what had happened, 423 00:18:24,336 --> 00:18:26,805 until she finally wrote her a letter 424 00:18:26,872 --> 00:18:28,740 detailing the night's events. 425 00:18:28,807 --> 00:18:30,375 Here's some of what you wrote. 426 00:18:30,442 --> 00:18:32,811 "It was very painful, but I couldn't move 427 00:18:32,878 --> 00:18:34,880 "because he was holding me. 428 00:18:34,947 --> 00:18:36,915 "I could feel sharp pains for a while, 429 00:18:36,982 --> 00:18:39,151 "and then I just felt numb. 430 00:18:39,218 --> 00:18:43,222 I was holding my eyes shut, hoping it would be over soon." 431 00:18:43,288 --> 00:18:46,525 - [sniffles] - It's okay. 432 00:18:46,592 --> 00:18:49,394 Yeah, I just held her and cried. 433 00:18:49,461 --> 00:18:51,296 We both cried. 434 00:18:51,363 --> 00:18:55,701 - Ryan was reported to both the police and to USASF, 435 00:18:55,767 --> 00:19:00,138 but Ryan, like Jerry Harris, was no ordinary cheerleader. 436 00:19:00,205 --> 00:19:03,775 He, too, had been featured on the Netflix series "Cheer." 437 00:19:03,842 --> 00:19:05,277 He, too, had become 438 00:19:05,344 --> 00:19:07,112 a prominent figure in the sport, 439 00:19:07,179 --> 00:19:09,348 and despite the allegations, 440 00:19:09,414 --> 00:19:12,751 he, too, was kept eligible by USASF 441 00:19:12,818 --> 00:19:16,421 until his alleged abuse was reported by "USA Today" 442 00:19:16,488 --> 00:19:18,490 nearly five months later. 443 00:19:18,557 --> 00:19:20,926 - It's just very frustrating that they waited that long, 444 00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:22,094 when they-- 445 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,563 They had the information, and they still did nothing. 446 00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:27,032 And even now, they haven't followed up with us. 447 00:19:27,099 --> 00:19:29,301 - You haven't heard from them? - No. 448 00:19:29,368 --> 00:19:30,636 - Mitch Ryan was arrested 449 00:19:30,702 --> 00:19:33,906 on charges of aggravated sexual assault of a child. 450 00:19:33,972 --> 00:19:36,975 His case is scheduled to go before a grand jury 451 00:19:37,042 --> 00:19:38,343 later this year. 452 00:19:38,410 --> 00:19:41,747 Through his attorney, he denies any wrongdoing. 453 00:19:41,813 --> 00:19:45,217 Meanwhile, his former castmate Jerry Harris, 454 00:19:45,284 --> 00:19:48,554 has pled not guilty and is awaiting trial. 455 00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:51,189 We wanted to talk to USASF, 456 00:19:51,256 --> 00:19:53,926 but they declined our request for an interview. 457 00:19:53,992 --> 00:19:56,461 In a statement, they say they remain 458 00:19:56,528 --> 00:19:58,797 committed to athlete safety, 459 00:19:58,864 --> 00:20:00,866 require their members to comply 460 00:20:00,933 --> 00:20:04,436 with USASF's documented safeguarding principles, 461 00:20:04,503 --> 00:20:06,371 and are now partnering with third-party 462 00:20:06,438 --> 00:20:09,942 child protection experts to make the sport safer. 463 00:20:10,008 --> 00:20:13,312 As for Ginger Wilczak, the child protection expert 464 00:20:13,378 --> 00:20:17,049 parted with USASF after less than two years 465 00:20:17,115 --> 00:20:18,817 but says she still harbors guilt 466 00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:22,321 for having played a part in the industry's failures. 467 00:20:22,387 --> 00:20:25,223 - I do feel like I've let some athletes down, 468 00:20:25,290 --> 00:20:27,559 and that is something that I will carry. 469 00:20:27,626 --> 00:20:31,363 - What do you say to people who blame you 470 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:34,433 for all of this happening under your watch? 471 00:20:34,499 --> 00:20:36,034 - I accept that responsibility. 472 00:20:36,101 --> 00:20:40,372 I failed, in that I did not do what I should have done-- 473 00:20:40,439 --> 00:20:42,107 pushed the issue further 474 00:20:42,174 --> 00:20:44,476 and not been complicit in what was happening. 475 00:20:44,543 --> 00:20:47,346 - But while Wilczak has left the cheer industry, 476 00:20:47,412 --> 00:20:49,948 other advocates are now stepping in, 477 00:20:50,015 --> 00:20:51,450 like Sarah Klein, 478 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:54,686 who didn't just survive her abuse by Larry Nassar 479 00:20:54,753 --> 00:20:58,023 but also became a lawyer and recently brought suit 480 00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:01,126 against USASF and Varsity Spirit 481 00:21:01,193 --> 00:21:03,996 on behalf of Kristen and her two boys, 482 00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:06,598 who she believes will expose the sport 483 00:21:06,665 --> 00:21:08,634 to a reckoning of its own. 484 00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:11,069 - What we saw in the sport of gymnastics, 485 00:21:11,136 --> 00:21:15,741 it takes those first few courageous voices 486 00:21:15,807 --> 00:21:17,976 to expose the truth, 487 00:21:18,043 --> 00:21:20,278 and a snowball effect occurs. 488 00:21:20,345 --> 00:21:22,648 That was an unraveling. 489 00:21:22,714 --> 00:21:25,684 This is the beginning of an unraveling. 490 00:21:25,751 --> 00:21:30,589 ♪ ♪ 491 00:21:30,656 --> 00:21:32,858 - Mary, this one's really a tough one, isn't it? 492 00:21:32,924 --> 00:21:34,059 - It was devastating. 493 00:21:34,126 --> 00:21:36,695 This is the hardest story I've ever done for this show. 494 00:21:36,762 --> 00:21:40,565 The idea that the first sexual experience a young boy 495 00:21:40,632 --> 00:21:43,802 or a young girl has is sexual abuse is devastating. 496 00:21:43,869 --> 00:21:45,370 - USASF. - Mm. 497 00:21:45,437 --> 00:21:47,506 - How is it possible that they have managed 498 00:21:47,572 --> 00:21:50,609 to avoid any kind of government oversight? 499 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:54,980 - Because it's not considered right now, anyway, a sport, 500 00:21:55,047 --> 00:21:56,114 so it doesn't have to fall 501 00:21:56,181 --> 00:21:58,283 under the national governing bodies 502 00:21:58,350 --> 00:21:59,918 that all those sports, 503 00:21:59,985 --> 00:22:02,988 many of them Olympic sports, have to fall under. 504 00:22:03,055 --> 00:22:04,856 Congress doesn't oversee them at all. 505 00:22:04,923 --> 00:22:06,692 - These people at Varsity Spirit, 506 00:22:06,758 --> 00:22:10,195 have they a hand in any athletic effort 507 00:22:10,262 --> 00:22:13,265 other than competitive cheerleading? 508 00:22:13,331 --> 00:22:14,266 - Not to my knowledge. 509 00:22:14,332 --> 00:22:16,868 I mean, cheerleading is a huge business. 510 00:22:16,935 --> 00:22:18,103 It's getting bigger and bigger. 511 00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:20,205 So, I mean, this is what they do. 512 00:22:20,272 --> 00:22:21,840 They've been running this for years. 513 00:22:21,907 --> 00:22:23,642 There are anti-trust lawsuits going on 514 00:22:23,709 --> 00:22:26,211 because it's considered by its critics 515 00:22:26,278 --> 00:22:28,747 to be a monopolistic enterprise. 516 00:22:28,814 --> 00:22:31,917 - Let's give these people their proper credit. 517 00:22:31,983 --> 00:22:34,820 Varsity Spirit, the parent company is Bain Capital, 518 00:22:34,886 --> 00:22:37,489 and the man in charge is Bill Seely. 519 00:22:37,556 --> 00:22:40,492 Remember the name. Mary, thanks very much. 520 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:43,628 Let's move on to another issue of social importance, 521 00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:46,164 and that's the use of force by police officers. 522 00:22:46,231 --> 00:22:49,601 The debate over how and when cops can or should apply force 523 00:22:49,668 --> 00:22:51,103 is far from new, 524 00:22:51,169 --> 00:22:53,138 but it has intensified in recent years 525 00:22:53,205 --> 00:22:55,741 as more and more videos have gone viral, 526 00:22:55,807 --> 00:22:58,477 forcing police departments to publicly account for arrests 527 00:22:58,543 --> 00:23:02,013 that often look sloppy at best and cruel at worst. 528 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,616 There is no easy solution to the problem, 529 00:23:04,683 --> 00:23:06,051 but the ongoing search for one 530 00:23:06,118 --> 00:23:08,687 has now oddly led to the world of sports. 531 00:23:08,754 --> 00:23:11,089 Our David Scott explains. 532 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:12,090 - Stop! 533 00:23:12,157 --> 00:23:14,626 - These are some images of recent arrests 534 00:23:14,693 --> 00:23:15,827 around the country. 535 00:23:15,894 --> 00:23:17,162 - [chokes] - Stop. 536 00:23:17,229 --> 00:23:18,163 - [groans] 537 00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:19,598 - Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! 538 00:23:19,664 --> 00:23:20,699 - Stop! 539 00:23:20,766 --> 00:23:22,234 - From Connecticut... 540 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:24,903 [indistinct shouting] 541 00:23:24,970 --> 00:23:26,438 - To Arizona... 542 00:23:26,505 --> 00:23:29,207 - What the fuck? Hey, yo! What the fuck, yo? 543 00:23:29,274 --> 00:23:30,675 - To Maryland. 544 00:23:30,742 --> 00:23:33,712 In the era of cell phones and social media, 545 00:23:33,779 --> 00:23:36,581 videos like these have become more and more common. 546 00:23:36,648 --> 00:23:38,817 And along with society's increased focus 547 00:23:38,884 --> 00:23:40,819 on social justice, 548 00:23:40,886 --> 00:23:43,588 more people than ever are questioning the ways 549 00:23:43,655 --> 00:23:47,359 in which America's police officers use force. 550 00:23:47,425 --> 00:23:49,494 Many are demanding change, 551 00:23:49,561 --> 00:23:51,062 from reforming police 552 00:23:51,129 --> 00:23:53,031 to eliminating them altogether. 553 00:23:53,098 --> 00:23:55,534 all: Abolish the police! 554 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,170 - But now some are saying that the best remedy 555 00:23:58,236 --> 00:24:02,073 can be found in the last place you might think to look. 556 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:05,377 - Again, out! - And down goes Curry! 557 00:24:05,443 --> 00:24:07,012 - Out cold. 558 00:24:07,078 --> 00:24:09,581 - Yes, the people who created America's most violent 559 00:24:09,648 --> 00:24:11,683 professional sports competition 560 00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:15,520 now say they can create the country's least violent cops. 561 00:24:15,587 --> 00:24:18,056 - We happen to have a solution 562 00:24:18,123 --> 00:24:21,726 that is so desperately needed 563 00:24:21,793 --> 00:24:25,764 by every police officer in America right now 564 00:24:25,831 --> 00:24:27,732 because this is what we do. 565 00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:29,868 This is what I was born around. 566 00:24:29,935 --> 00:24:32,504 - Rener Gracie is a member of the family 567 00:24:32,571 --> 00:24:34,472 that created the UFC... 568 00:24:34,539 --> 00:24:38,343 - This is the main event! 569 00:24:38,410 --> 00:24:41,546 - The professional competitive circuit of mixed martial arts. 570 00:24:41,613 --> 00:24:43,582 [cheers and applause] 571 00:24:43,648 --> 00:24:45,784 The league was launched nearly 30 years ago 572 00:24:45,851 --> 00:24:47,052 by Gracie's father. 573 00:24:47,118 --> 00:24:49,521 - We hope we enjoy the show. 574 00:24:49,588 --> 00:24:51,323 And this is what real fighting is all about. 575 00:24:51,389 --> 00:24:52,591 [cheers and applause] 576 00:24:52,657 --> 00:24:55,827 - Its first star and inaugural champion was his uncle... 577 00:24:55,894 --> 00:24:58,096 - There's the tap, there's the tap. 578 00:24:58,163 --> 00:25:00,732 - And one of its core strategies was invented 579 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:02,234 by his grandfather, 580 00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:04,803 a martial arts grandmaster from Brazil. 581 00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:07,539 It's a system of holds and locks 582 00:25:07,606 --> 00:25:09,608 called Brazilian jiu-jitsu, 583 00:25:09,674 --> 00:25:10,942 or BJJ. 584 00:25:11,009 --> 00:25:14,012 And for years, it's been used by the fighting Gracies 585 00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:15,881 to subdue their rivals 586 00:25:15,947 --> 00:25:18,250 no matter how big or how strong, 587 00:25:18,316 --> 00:25:20,252 no muss and no fuss. 588 00:25:20,318 --> 00:25:23,588 - And the Gracie train keeps rolling! 589 00:25:23,655 --> 00:25:27,726 - Jiu-jitsu truly enables the smaller, weaker individual 590 00:25:27,792 --> 00:25:29,060 to stand a chance 591 00:25:29,127 --> 00:25:31,730 against a larger, more athletic aggressor 592 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:33,632 in a violent physical altercation. 593 00:25:33,698 --> 00:25:37,903 And because of its inherently nonviolent nature 594 00:25:37,969 --> 00:25:41,339 versus violent, brutal strikes like other arts, 595 00:25:41,406 --> 00:25:44,943 allows us to do that at the most gradual progression. 596 00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:47,712 - Is that a central concept, 597 00:25:47,779 --> 00:25:51,449 to exercise the minimum effective dose of force? 598 00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:53,919 - The philosophy is absolutely 599 00:25:53,985 --> 00:25:57,389 the least amount of force necessary 600 00:25:57,455 --> 00:26:01,326 to neutralize the aggressor and their threat to us. 601 00:26:01,393 --> 00:26:03,595 - It's the part of any MMA fight 602 00:26:03,662 --> 00:26:06,431 that's the least bloody and the most boring. 603 00:26:06,498 --> 00:26:10,201 No punches, no kicks, just calm control. 604 00:26:10,268 --> 00:26:13,204 But if that's not always what fans want in their fights, 605 00:26:13,271 --> 00:26:15,140 it's exactly what the public wants 606 00:26:15,206 --> 00:26:18,610 out of its police arrests, so the Gracies say it's time 607 00:26:18,677 --> 00:26:21,947 to teach their secrets to cops. 608 00:26:22,013 --> 00:26:23,515 - How does anybody expect an officer 609 00:26:23,581 --> 00:26:26,618 to take a violent, resisting person into custody 610 00:26:26,685 --> 00:26:30,121 if we don't give them the tools to do so? 611 00:26:30,188 --> 00:26:31,256 It's common sense. 612 00:26:31,323 --> 00:26:33,825 If you ask me to do something, teach me how to do it. 613 00:26:33,892 --> 00:26:38,229 And we know how to teach people how to do this particular task. 614 00:26:38,296 --> 00:26:39,230 Pry that leg through. 615 00:26:39,297 --> 00:26:40,465 Turn those hips, come in this way. 616 00:26:40,532 --> 00:26:43,435 - That's why Rener Gracie is now touring the country, 617 00:26:43,501 --> 00:26:45,804 inviting cops to join him at the gym 618 00:26:45,870 --> 00:26:47,038 and coaching them up 619 00:26:47,105 --> 00:26:49,374 on takedowns and other techniques. 620 00:26:49,441 --> 00:26:50,475 - Coming up on your toes, 621 00:26:50,542 --> 00:26:51,977 come in, circling, circling, on your toes, excellent. 622 00:26:52,043 --> 00:26:54,279 Melt the hips coming in. Excellent. 623 00:26:54,346 --> 00:26:57,115 - Like at this session in the San Francisco Bay Area 624 00:26:57,182 --> 00:27:00,218 last month, where Rener and his brother Ryron, 625 00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:01,820 another martial arts master, 626 00:27:01,886 --> 00:27:04,489 put on an exhibition for local cops. 627 00:27:04,556 --> 00:27:06,458 First, they used me as the suspect. 628 00:27:06,524 --> 00:27:07,993 - Let's go. We're coming in. Yes. 629 00:27:08,059 --> 00:27:11,162 - [grunts] - Okay. 630 00:27:11,229 --> 00:27:14,199 - Then someone far bigger and stronger. 631 00:27:14,265 --> 00:27:15,667 - Couple slaps, couple slaps. Go. 632 00:27:15,734 --> 00:27:16,735 Hit him in the head, suspect. 633 00:27:16,801 --> 00:27:18,003 Get some real range for your strikes. 634 00:27:18,069 --> 00:27:20,638 Reach for his face. Touch his head. Go, suspect. 635 00:27:20,705 --> 00:27:24,242 Go, suspect. Holy moly! [laughter and applause] 636 00:27:24,309 --> 00:27:25,777 Were you trying to get out? - Yeah. 637 00:27:25,844 --> 00:27:27,879 I just felt like I was getting smothered. 638 00:27:27,946 --> 00:27:29,948 - Jiu-jitsu as we teach it, 639 00:27:30,015 --> 00:27:31,416 not only does it accomplish the objective 640 00:27:31,483 --> 00:27:33,818 of neutralizing violence and taking someone into custody, 641 00:27:33,885 --> 00:27:37,222 but it does it in the most "camera friendly" way possible. 642 00:27:37,288 --> 00:27:40,925 - Is the goal fewer viral videos, 643 00:27:40,992 --> 00:27:43,294 or is the goal better outcomes? 644 00:27:43,361 --> 00:27:47,966 - The goal is repaired relationships 645 00:27:48,033 --> 00:27:49,601 between communities 646 00:27:49,667 --> 00:27:51,736 and the law enforcement agencies that serve them. 647 00:27:51,803 --> 00:27:55,373 - Among Gracie's instructors here, Damon Gilbert, 648 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,209 who learned BJJ from Gracie a decade ago 649 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:00,812 and his now passing those lessons along. 650 00:28:00,879 --> 00:28:03,281 - Nice job. Nice movement. 651 00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:05,316 - Gilbert is plenty familiar with the issue 652 00:28:05,383 --> 00:28:07,419 of how police apply force 653 00:28:07,485 --> 00:28:10,155 as an officer in the Oakland Police Department. 654 00:28:10,221 --> 00:28:12,657 But he's also seen the issue from the other side 655 00:28:12,724 --> 00:28:14,426 back when he was in high school 656 00:28:14,492 --> 00:28:17,562 and was at the scene of an altercation between some cops 657 00:28:17,629 --> 00:28:19,264 and his classmates. 658 00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:21,633 - Next thing I know, 659 00:28:21,699 --> 00:28:24,436 someone threw a cup, hits the officer on the shoulder. 660 00:28:24,502 --> 00:28:26,704 I don't know why he picked me, 661 00:28:26,771 --> 00:28:29,140 but that man slammed me to the ground, 662 00:28:29,207 --> 00:28:30,942 punched me in the face a couple times. 663 00:28:31,009 --> 00:28:34,913 I put my hands behind my back. That man punched me. 664 00:28:34,979 --> 00:28:36,781 Punched me, punched me. - Wow. 665 00:28:36,848 --> 00:28:38,550 - The tears came out 666 00:28:38,616 --> 00:28:40,785 because I didn't think it was supposed to be like this. 667 00:28:40,852 --> 00:28:43,188 - You're a kid. - Yeah. I'm 16, 17. 668 00:28:43,254 --> 00:28:45,223 And my grandmother pulled me to the side, 669 00:28:45,290 --> 00:28:46,458 and she said, "Damon, 670 00:28:46,524 --> 00:28:50,095 "you can either harbor the hate and anger that you have 671 00:28:50,161 --> 00:28:52,464 "for police officers because what happened to you, 672 00:28:52,530 --> 00:28:54,466 "or you can decide to make a change. 673 00:28:54,532 --> 00:28:56,668 What are you gonna do, young man?" 674 00:28:56,734 --> 00:29:00,105 - Gilbert decided to try to make a change from the inside. 675 00:29:00,171 --> 00:29:03,074 He joined the Oakland PD and has become an advocate 676 00:29:03,141 --> 00:29:05,710 for BJJ training in the department-- 677 00:29:05,777 --> 00:29:08,379 the key, he says, to rebuilding the bond 678 00:29:08,446 --> 00:29:11,015 between cops and local communities. 679 00:29:11,082 --> 00:29:13,918 - That's the burden of every police officer-- 680 00:29:13,985 --> 00:29:16,955 to do our absolute best, 681 00:29:17,021 --> 00:29:21,259 to do double the work to regain the trust of the community. 682 00:29:21,326 --> 00:29:22,260 And guess what. 683 00:29:22,327 --> 00:29:24,362 It only can be done by our actions. 684 00:29:24,429 --> 00:29:26,097 It's like a dual responsibility... 685 00:29:26,164 --> 00:29:29,100 - Slowly but surely, more and more police departments 686 00:29:29,167 --> 00:29:31,936 are quietly turning to BJJ, 687 00:29:32,003 --> 00:29:34,172 especially when a crisis hits home, 688 00:29:34,239 --> 00:29:38,109 like it did in 2019 in Marietta, Georgia... 689 00:29:38,176 --> 00:29:39,177 - Please! [Taser clicking] 690 00:29:39,244 --> 00:29:42,213 Please don't do it! - Stop it! 691 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,116 - Where a late-night arrest at a restaurant 692 00:29:45,183 --> 00:29:47,118 descended into chaos. 693 00:29:47,185 --> 00:29:48,553 - Stop! No! 694 00:29:48,620 --> 00:29:51,789 - What do you see when you look at that incident? 695 00:29:51,856 --> 00:29:53,791 - Four officers were having a difficulty 696 00:29:53,858 --> 00:29:55,593 controlling one person. 697 00:29:55,660 --> 00:29:57,929 It looks terrible. It just looks terrible. 698 00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:01,299 - Jake King is a major in the Marietta Police Department. 699 00:30:01,366 --> 00:30:04,068 He says the moment served as a wake-up call 700 00:30:04,135 --> 00:30:05,637 to his organization. 701 00:30:05,703 --> 00:30:08,339 - It really put a lot of pressure on us as an agency 702 00:30:08,406 --> 00:30:11,643 because the public has decided, and I agree with them, 703 00:30:11,709 --> 00:30:14,212 they don't like to see us punch and kick people 704 00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:16,681 or talk disrespectful to people. 705 00:30:16,748 --> 00:30:18,917 - Do you believe that there's a gap 706 00:30:18,983 --> 00:30:22,921 in what the public expects from police 707 00:30:22,987 --> 00:30:26,324 and what police are capable of? 708 00:30:26,391 --> 00:30:28,326 - What they get and what they expect 709 00:30:28,393 --> 00:30:30,228 is two totally different things. 710 00:30:30,295 --> 00:30:31,229 And it's not just us. 711 00:30:31,296 --> 00:30:32,931 We can go watch tons of other videos and say, 712 00:30:32,997 --> 00:30:36,201 "Okay, that officer could handle that so much better 713 00:30:36,267 --> 00:30:37,602 and have a different outcome." 714 00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:39,437 - King says that the problem is 715 00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:42,707 that officers simply aren't taught how to do their job. 716 00:30:42,774 --> 00:30:45,610 He says that when it comes to shooting their firearms, 717 00:30:45,677 --> 00:30:47,712 cops are trained extensively 718 00:30:47,779 --> 00:30:50,148 and must engage in frequent practice 719 00:30:50,215 --> 00:30:53,117 and regular recertification. 720 00:30:53,184 --> 00:30:56,988 But when it comes to training in hand-to-hand tactics... 721 00:30:57,055 --> 00:30:58,723 - The state here has 722 00:30:58,790 --> 00:31:01,726 a zero requirement for yearly training. 723 00:31:01,793 --> 00:31:03,161 - Zero? 724 00:31:03,228 --> 00:31:04,596 - You never have to attend any training 725 00:31:04,662 --> 00:31:06,097 that involves putting hands on people. 726 00:31:06,164 --> 00:31:08,499 But how much training do I get in firearms? 727 00:31:08,566 --> 00:31:13,438 Well, I qualify twice a year. We have a simulator downstairs. 728 00:31:13,504 --> 00:31:15,773 I can go to a gun range and shoot whenever I want. 729 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,444 - So of the 150 officers on your staff... 730 00:31:19,510 --> 00:31:21,279 - 145. Yes, sir. - 145. 731 00:31:21,346 --> 00:31:23,081 How many of them have fired their gun 732 00:31:23,147 --> 00:31:25,717 in the line of duty, would you say? 733 00:31:25,783 --> 00:31:27,852 - Three. - Three? 734 00:31:27,919 --> 00:31:30,955 How many have had to put their hands on citizens 735 00:31:31,022 --> 00:31:32,123 in the line of duty? 736 00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:34,525 - Every single one of 'em. 737 00:31:34,592 --> 00:31:37,862 - Rener Gracie says it's basically the same story 738 00:31:37,929 --> 00:31:40,498 at police departments across the country. 739 00:31:40,565 --> 00:31:43,534 - You're spending the vast majority of your training time 740 00:31:43,601 --> 00:31:46,471 on the firing range shooting at a bull's-eye. 741 00:31:46,537 --> 00:31:48,273 Pop, pop, pop. So you hit the target. 742 00:31:48,339 --> 00:31:51,876 And you spend 1% of your training time every two years 743 00:31:51,943 --> 00:31:53,578 in how to hold someone and grab someone. 744 00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:55,413 - The thing that police officers 745 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,949 are least likely to do on the job 746 00:31:58,016 --> 00:32:00,585 gets the overwhelming amount of training. 747 00:32:00,652 --> 00:32:04,422 And the thing that they are most likely to do on the job 748 00:32:04,489 --> 00:32:07,425 gets vanishingly little. 749 00:32:07,492 --> 00:32:08,860 - You nailed it. 750 00:32:08,926 --> 00:32:12,864 - The inevitable result, Gracie says, scenes like this. 751 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:16,301 And when video of this arrest went viral around Marietta, 752 00:32:16,367 --> 00:32:19,504 officials decided it was time to make a change. 753 00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:21,472 That's why these days, 754 00:32:21,539 --> 00:32:23,608 you can often find Marietta's cops 755 00:32:23,675 --> 00:32:25,777 heading to the local BJJ gym, 756 00:32:25,843 --> 00:32:29,947 where they trade in their police blues for jiu-jitsu gis 757 00:32:30,014 --> 00:32:32,350 and learn the art of BJJ. 758 00:32:32,417 --> 00:32:35,053 The training program was implemented by Major King 759 00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:37,221 and paid for by the department-- 760 00:32:37,288 --> 00:32:40,158 $10 per cop per class. 761 00:32:40,224 --> 00:32:42,527 King recommends it for all of his officers 762 00:32:42,593 --> 00:32:46,097 and has made it mandatory for recruits. 763 00:32:46,164 --> 00:32:47,231 - We have probably about 18, 20 officers here 764 00:32:47,298 --> 00:32:48,433 training today. 765 00:32:48,499 --> 00:32:50,868 - At all different levels? - Yeah, all different levels. 766 00:32:50,935 --> 00:32:53,071 The highest level would be purple belts. 767 00:32:53,137 --> 00:32:54,639 And then down to the recruit 768 00:32:54,706 --> 00:32:56,808 that it's her second training session. 769 00:32:56,874 --> 00:32:58,543 - Today the officers are learning 770 00:32:58,609 --> 00:33:02,580 how to use their body leverage to put handcuffs on a suspect. 771 00:33:02,647 --> 00:33:04,382 The idea is that next time, 772 00:33:04,449 --> 00:33:06,317 instead of a dogpile like this... 773 00:33:06,384 --> 00:33:07,285 - Stop! No! 774 00:33:07,352 --> 00:33:09,387 - It should look like this. 775 00:33:09,454 --> 00:33:12,290 - Left hand under. 776 00:33:12,357 --> 00:33:14,692 Reach and grab the wrist, pull all the way back, 777 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:16,894 and you can handcuff right here. 778 00:33:16,961 --> 00:33:18,363 - Marietta's officers say 779 00:33:18,429 --> 00:33:20,732 the training is already paying off. 780 00:33:20,798 --> 00:33:23,835 Luis Valdez says he used his new skills recently 781 00:33:23,901 --> 00:33:26,237 after a patient he was transporting 782 00:33:26,304 --> 00:33:30,341 to a psychiatric hospital suddenly tried to escape. 783 00:33:30,408 --> 00:33:32,310 - He tried to push me away, 784 00:33:32,377 --> 00:33:34,212 but with the training that I've received, 785 00:33:34,278 --> 00:33:35,513 I was prepared for this. 786 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:37,482 I was able to effectively, you know, 787 00:33:37,548 --> 00:33:39,150 get a grip on him and bring him down. 788 00:33:39,217 --> 00:33:41,486 [indistinct radio chatter] 789 00:33:41,552 --> 00:33:43,121 You're gonna be all right. 790 00:33:43,187 --> 00:33:44,589 - You have to make that... [snaps fingers] 791 00:33:44,655 --> 00:33:46,290 Instant decision. - Exactly. 792 00:33:46,357 --> 00:33:48,426 It's like that muscle memory just clicks in your head. 793 00:33:48,493 --> 00:33:52,430 - But even as some are buying into the potential of BJJ, 794 00:33:52,497 --> 00:33:55,199 others say they're unconvinced by the idea. 795 00:33:55,266 --> 00:33:58,603 - As much as I like and respect BJJ as a martial art, 796 00:33:58,669 --> 00:34:02,740 I don't think painting policing over with a BJJ brush 797 00:34:02,807 --> 00:34:05,543 is going to change the industry. 798 00:34:05,610 --> 00:34:07,378 - Seth Stoughton is a law professor 799 00:34:07,445 --> 00:34:09,547 at the University of South Carolina 800 00:34:09,614 --> 00:34:12,350 and was a police use-of-force expert witness 801 00:34:12,417 --> 00:34:14,986 in the trial of police officer Derek Chauvin 802 00:34:15,052 --> 00:34:17,054 for the killing of George Floyd. 803 00:34:17,121 --> 00:34:19,390 - No reasonable officer would've believed 804 00:34:19,457 --> 00:34:21,926 that that was an appropriate, acceptable, 805 00:34:21,993 --> 00:34:23,728 or reasonable use of force. 806 00:34:23,795 --> 00:34:28,332 - It's not that Stoughton is anti-cop or anti-martial arts. 807 00:34:28,399 --> 00:34:31,002 In fact, he used to be an officer 808 00:34:31,068 --> 00:34:33,771 and a martial arts instructor, too. 809 00:34:33,838 --> 00:34:37,475 But he says he's skeptical that BJJ is the solution, 810 00:34:37,542 --> 00:34:38,976 because over the years, 811 00:34:39,043 --> 00:34:41,579 he's seen so many other supposed solutions 812 00:34:41,646 --> 00:34:42,747 come and go. 813 00:34:42,814 --> 00:34:46,918 - The idea that one tool or one technique 814 00:34:46,984 --> 00:34:49,720 or one martial arts system 815 00:34:49,787 --> 00:34:52,557 would significantly address some of the problems 816 00:34:52,623 --> 00:34:54,158 in use of force, 817 00:34:54,225 --> 00:34:56,227 I don't know which version of that movie we're on, 818 00:34:56,294 --> 00:34:58,062 but we're definitely into reruns. 819 00:34:58,129 --> 00:35:01,966 - Consider in the 1960s, officers were given Mace, 820 00:35:02,033 --> 00:35:04,535 which was supposed to allow them to subdue suspects 821 00:35:04,602 --> 00:35:06,070 without excessive force. 822 00:35:06,137 --> 00:35:08,739 In the '90s, they were issued Tasers, 823 00:35:08,806 --> 00:35:10,641 which were supposed to address the problem 824 00:35:10,708 --> 00:35:12,610 of bad firearm use. 825 00:35:12,677 --> 00:35:16,180 Even martial arts has been pitched as a solution before, 826 00:35:16,247 --> 00:35:18,950 from Muay Thai to nunchakus 827 00:35:19,016 --> 00:35:21,419 to complex self-defense programs. 828 00:35:21,486 --> 00:35:24,822 But every promised cure has fallen short. 829 00:35:24,889 --> 00:35:26,724 - This is the history of policing-- 830 00:35:26,791 --> 00:35:31,596 gravitating towards the next big thing 831 00:35:31,662 --> 00:35:34,298 and when the next crisis rolls around, 832 00:35:34,365 --> 00:35:37,134 they abandon the old next big thing, 833 00:35:37,201 --> 00:35:39,704 and they're on to the newer next big thing. 834 00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:43,074 - Stoughton also worries that any effort to scale up 835 00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:46,844 BJJ education to officers around the country will result 836 00:35:46,911 --> 00:35:49,947 in training that's watered down and inconsistent 837 00:35:50,014 --> 00:35:52,450 and that many cops would learn poorly-- 838 00:35:52,517 --> 00:35:54,619 perhaps just enough to be dangerous. 839 00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:57,288 Do you worry that BJJ 840 00:35:57,355 --> 00:36:00,558 just becomes another tool to be abused? 841 00:36:00,625 --> 00:36:04,829 - What I worry about is the potential for misuse. 842 00:36:04,896 --> 00:36:06,030 In a high-pressure environment, 843 00:36:06,097 --> 00:36:10,668 a half-trained officer may not know how far to go 844 00:36:10,735 --> 00:36:13,538 and may go way farther than they should. 845 00:36:13,604 --> 00:36:15,039 If we want officers 846 00:36:15,106 --> 00:36:17,475 to have the physical skills that they need, 847 00:36:17,542 --> 00:36:21,145 they need to train consistently 848 00:36:21,212 --> 00:36:25,049 in an appropriate live training environment, 849 00:36:25,116 --> 00:36:28,886 and that means time, manpower, dollars. 850 00:36:28,953 --> 00:36:29,887 - Yeah. 851 00:36:29,954 --> 00:36:33,925 - And those are real constraints in policing. 852 00:36:33,991 --> 00:36:36,060 - But back in Marietta, officials say 853 00:36:36,127 --> 00:36:38,596 they've proven this can work in the real world. 854 00:36:38,663 --> 00:36:40,865 Major King says his department's data 855 00:36:40,932 --> 00:36:44,535 clearly indicates fewer and less violent clashes 856 00:36:44,602 --> 00:36:46,737 between cops and suspects. 857 00:36:46,804 --> 00:36:49,140 - I was looking at injuries to officers, 858 00:36:49,206 --> 00:36:51,642 and I found that there was a 48% reduction 859 00:36:51,709 --> 00:36:53,177 in officers being injured. 860 00:36:53,244 --> 00:36:55,079 So then I start researching more, 861 00:36:55,146 --> 00:36:59,383 and we reduced injuries to suspects by 53%. 862 00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:03,221 - Based on the deployment of Brazilian jiu-jitsu 863 00:37:03,287 --> 00:37:04,689 in patrol? 864 00:37:04,755 --> 00:37:05,856 - Yes. 865 00:37:05,923 --> 00:37:07,491 And the data showed even further 866 00:37:07,558 --> 00:37:09,727 that if you scuffled, resisted arrest, 867 00:37:09,794 --> 00:37:12,430 you were 200% more likely to be injured 868 00:37:12,496 --> 00:37:15,733 by a non-jiu-jitsu officer than somebody that had been through 869 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,070 the mandatory program or was a practitioner of jiu-jitsu. 870 00:37:19,136 --> 00:37:20,137 - Really? 871 00:37:20,204 --> 00:37:22,173 - Taser use has gone down by jiu-jitsu officers. 872 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,975 Then I went through workers' comp claims. 873 00:37:24,041 --> 00:37:27,345 We saved almost $70,000 in the first year. 874 00:37:27,411 --> 00:37:30,348 Significantly less than what program costs us to run, 875 00:37:30,414 --> 00:37:31,349 for sure. 876 00:37:31,415 --> 00:37:33,551 - King showed us video after video 877 00:37:33,618 --> 00:37:37,455 of Marietta police officers using their BJJ skills 878 00:37:37,521 --> 00:37:39,890 to defuse volatile situations... 879 00:37:39,957 --> 00:37:42,560 - Why? Bitch! Bitch! 880 00:37:42,627 --> 00:37:46,430 - Instantly turning moments of chaos into control... 881 00:37:46,497 --> 00:37:48,299 - Now you're getting felony charges. 882 00:37:48,366 --> 00:37:50,401 - [speaks indistinctly] 883 00:37:50,468 --> 00:37:51,535 - Like this one, 884 00:37:51,602 --> 00:37:54,372 where officer Jared Nuti is engaged in a foot chase 885 00:37:54,438 --> 00:37:56,207 with a mentally ill man. 886 00:37:56,273 --> 00:37:57,842 - Bro, you got to stop. 887 00:37:57,908 --> 00:38:01,712 He hopped a couple fences, and we got into a front yard. 888 00:38:01,779 --> 00:38:05,082 And I used my leg to scoop out his right leg... 889 00:38:05,149 --> 00:38:06,083 Hey! 890 00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:07,551 And I angled him for the grass. 891 00:38:07,618 --> 00:38:08,686 You got to stay down. 892 00:38:08,753 --> 00:38:10,988 - Then we see that you're communicating with him 893 00:38:11,055 --> 00:38:12,790 after you've gained control. 894 00:38:12,857 --> 00:38:14,091 What's that about? 895 00:38:14,158 --> 00:38:15,092 - If you train jiu-jitsu 896 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:16,427 and you're on the ground with somebody, 897 00:38:16,494 --> 00:38:18,095 you're in control, trust me. 898 00:38:18,162 --> 00:38:19,530 So, at that point, 899 00:38:19,597 --> 00:38:22,366 I could just relax, talk to the guy. 900 00:38:22,433 --> 00:38:24,168 You're good, bro. 901 00:38:24,235 --> 00:38:26,737 - It kind of allows you more latitude for benevolence. 902 00:38:26,804 --> 00:38:28,706 - Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 903 00:38:28,773 --> 00:38:30,941 - He even pats him on the back, saying, "You're gonna be okay." 904 00:38:31,008 --> 00:38:32,076 - Didn't have to do that. 905 00:38:32,143 --> 00:38:33,611 - No, he didn't have to do that. 906 00:38:33,678 --> 00:38:37,114 But because of his demeanor and his control, there he was. 907 00:38:37,181 --> 00:38:39,750 - And for advocates of BJJ training, 908 00:38:39,817 --> 00:38:40,985 moments like those show 909 00:38:41,052 --> 00:38:43,354 just how much change could be possible. 910 00:38:43,421 --> 00:38:46,624 They say that cops trained in BJJ will be cooler, 911 00:38:46,691 --> 00:38:48,993 calmer, more confident, 912 00:38:49,060 --> 00:38:52,697 and thus not just less likely to use excessive force, 913 00:38:52,763 --> 00:38:55,399 less likely to even use force at all 914 00:38:55,466 --> 00:38:56,534 when it's not needed. 915 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,403 It may be Gracie's boldest claim. 916 00:38:59,470 --> 00:39:02,840 What can BJJ really do 917 00:39:02,907 --> 00:39:07,611 to influence the decision whether or not to use force? 918 00:39:07,678 --> 00:39:11,182 - More jiu-jitsu... 919 00:39:11,248 --> 00:39:13,050 lower perception of threat. 920 00:39:13,117 --> 00:39:15,753 Every officer who is empowered with jiu-jitsu, 921 00:39:15,820 --> 00:39:18,723 it's so much harder to shake their confidence. 922 00:39:18,789 --> 00:39:21,058 And when you have trouble shaking someone's confidence, 923 00:39:21,125 --> 00:39:24,328 you have trouble pushing someone to the brink. 924 00:39:24,395 --> 00:39:26,764 - Now you see a second officer come in, and you see her-- 925 00:39:26,831 --> 00:39:30,434 - In fact, Major King says that his BJJ-trained officers 926 00:39:30,501 --> 00:39:33,537 have been almost 60% less likely 927 00:39:33,604 --> 00:39:36,207 to engage in use of force to begin with. 928 00:39:36,273 --> 00:39:37,541 - One officer's headed there... 929 00:39:37,608 --> 00:39:40,244 - King concedes that there is no single cure-all 930 00:39:40,311 --> 00:39:44,081 for today's policing crisis but says the changes he's seen 931 00:39:44,148 --> 00:39:47,251 in both skill set and mindset of officers 932 00:39:47,318 --> 00:39:49,420 are important first steps, 933 00:39:49,487 --> 00:39:52,490 even if the road ahead is still a long one. 934 00:39:52,556 --> 00:39:54,191 - We didn't get here overnight, 935 00:39:54,258 --> 00:39:55,860 and we're not gonna get out of it overnight. 936 00:39:55,926 --> 00:39:59,463 Has law enforcement earned some of its black eyes? 937 00:39:59,530 --> 00:40:00,564 We absolutely have. 938 00:40:00,631 --> 00:40:02,666 But can we do something better moving forward? 939 00:40:02,733 --> 00:40:03,968 Yes, we can. 940 00:40:04,034 --> 00:40:07,104 - Law enforcement has no choice but to get better right now. 941 00:40:07,171 --> 00:40:08,239 This is it. 942 00:40:08,305 --> 00:40:11,575 If we don't do what we're setting out to do, 943 00:40:11,642 --> 00:40:14,311 the alternative is unacceptable. 944 00:40:14,378 --> 00:40:19,049 ♪ ♪ 945 00:40:19,116 --> 00:40:20,651 - David, there's so much to chew on here. 946 00:40:20,718 --> 00:40:23,120 I'd like to believe something like this can work, 947 00:40:23,187 --> 00:40:25,689 but the problem of police violence 948 00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:28,359 is often a problem that's more of a mindset 949 00:40:28,425 --> 00:40:29,894 than it is with the problem of tactics. 950 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:30,995 - Yeah. 951 00:40:31,061 --> 00:40:33,831 There are all kinds of systemic issues in policing 952 00:40:33,898 --> 00:40:36,700 that are beyond the grasp of something like BJJ. 953 00:40:36,767 --> 00:40:40,304 But now there's evidence that if we change the skill set 954 00:40:40,371 --> 00:40:41,939 and the mindset of policing, 955 00:40:42,006 --> 00:40:43,574 we can actually create better outcomes, 956 00:40:43,641 --> 00:40:44,575 and that's a big idea. 957 00:40:44,642 --> 00:40:45,876 - Is it normal to think 958 00:40:45,943 --> 00:40:49,513 that you can change the mindset by changing the skill set? 959 00:40:49,580 --> 00:40:52,683 I mean, the problem with rogue cops is 960 00:40:52,750 --> 00:40:55,252 their intention is to inflict the most violence 961 00:40:55,319 --> 00:40:56,954 they can legally get away with. 962 00:40:57,021 --> 00:41:00,724 - Nothing is going to remediate a malicious cop, 963 00:41:00,791 --> 00:41:02,226 but if you start from the presumption 964 00:41:02,293 --> 00:41:04,461 that most cops want to do the right thing 965 00:41:04,528 --> 00:41:07,097 and you join that with a skill set 966 00:41:07,164 --> 00:41:10,835 that actually values the least effective force, 967 00:41:10,901 --> 00:41:13,170 the minimum dose of force, 968 00:41:13,237 --> 00:41:15,239 then I think you have a good idea 969 00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:16,574 for today's policing. 970 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:17,908 - I was disappointed to hear 971 00:41:17,975 --> 00:41:20,244 that there have been other efforts along the way 972 00:41:20,311 --> 00:41:22,079 and all of them proved temporary. 973 00:41:22,146 --> 00:41:24,648 Is there any reason to think this one, BJJ, 974 00:41:24,715 --> 00:41:26,917 might have longer legs than the other one, 975 00:41:26,984 --> 00:41:28,052 more staying power? 976 00:41:28,118 --> 00:41:31,622 - It's tough, because scaling up this kind of training 977 00:41:31,689 --> 00:41:35,292 through all of the bureaucratic and other obstacles to doing so 978 00:41:35,359 --> 00:41:38,662 in police systems, that's a big if. 979 00:41:38,729 --> 00:41:42,933 If you could do it, I think the nascent evidence suggests 980 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,635 that you can actually move the needle. 981 00:41:44,702 --> 00:41:48,305 Is it gonna be a panacea for police problems in America? 982 00:41:48,372 --> 00:41:49,807 Absolutely not. 983 00:41:49,874 --> 00:41:52,910 But if we can change the outcomes, it could help. 984 00:41:52,977 --> 00:41:54,645 - Every little bit would help. David, thanks. 985 00:41:54,712 --> 00:41:55,646 - Thank you. 986 00:41:55,713 --> 00:41:57,781 - Our last story is about the booming business 987 00:41:57,848 --> 00:41:59,316 of sports trading cards. 988 00:41:59,383 --> 00:42:01,652 A few days ago, Major League Baseball announced 989 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,488 that it is ending its licensing agreement with Topps, 990 00:42:04,555 --> 00:42:06,290 the company that has been synonymous 991 00:42:06,357 --> 00:42:09,560 with the most popular trading cards for over seven decades. 992 00:42:09,627 --> 00:42:11,862 If that seems unfathomable to those of us 993 00:42:11,929 --> 00:42:14,899 who spent nickels and dimes to buy cards as a kid, 994 00:42:14,965 --> 00:42:16,200 it's also fitting. 995 00:42:16,267 --> 00:42:18,068 See, those days of collecting and trading 996 00:42:18,135 --> 00:42:20,104 simply for fun are long gone, 997 00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:22,473 replaced now by a multibillion-dollar business 998 00:42:22,539 --> 00:42:25,109 that is growing fast with no end in sight. 999 00:42:25,175 --> 00:42:28,078 Our Jon Frankel reports. 1000 00:42:28,145 --> 00:42:29,947 - I'll trade you Dick Groat for Eddie Matthews. 1001 00:42:30,014 --> 00:42:33,150 - For generations, young boys collected 1002 00:42:33,217 --> 00:42:36,086 and swapped trading cards of their favorite athletes... 1003 00:42:36,153 --> 00:42:38,188 - I'll trade you John Christensen for him. 1004 00:42:38,255 --> 00:42:39,323 - Okay. 1005 00:42:39,390 --> 00:42:41,458 - For a reason that's become a bit old-fashioned 1006 00:42:41,525 --> 00:42:45,396 in modern-day America-- for fun. 1007 00:42:45,462 --> 00:42:47,598 But today trading cards 1008 00:42:47,665 --> 00:42:50,134 looks a lot more like trading stocks, 1009 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,971 and the boys doing the trading aren't in it for fun 1010 00:42:54,038 --> 00:42:55,472 but for fortune. 1011 00:42:55,539 --> 00:42:57,508 Your dad said something to me. 1012 00:42:57,574 --> 00:43:01,078 Your dad said you are worth more than he is. 1013 00:43:01,145 --> 00:43:02,346 - [chuckles] 1014 00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:04,081 - Is that weird? 1015 00:43:04,148 --> 00:43:06,016 - It's definitely really weird 1016 00:43:06,083 --> 00:43:09,086 knowing that the value of my cards is worth more than, 1017 00:43:09,153 --> 00:43:12,690 you know, many middle-aged, you know, older people. 1018 00:43:12,756 --> 00:43:15,225 - Did you think that you would be a multimillionaire 1019 00:43:15,292 --> 00:43:16,393 at the age of 18? 1020 00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:18,095 - I didn't think I'd be a multimillionaire 1021 00:43:18,162 --> 00:43:19,530 by the age of retirement. 1022 00:43:19,596 --> 00:43:21,632 - Adam Ripps is a freshly minted 1023 00:43:21,699 --> 00:43:24,568 high-school graduate in suburban New York. 1024 00:43:24,635 --> 00:43:26,337 He's also rich, 1025 00:43:26,403 --> 00:43:28,005 so rich, in fact, 1026 00:43:28,072 --> 00:43:29,907 that while his friends are all heading off 1027 00:43:29,974 --> 00:43:31,742 to start college this week, 1028 00:43:31,809 --> 00:43:36,013 Adam is staying right here in his childhood bedroom 1029 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,282 to continue his childhood hobby. 1030 00:43:38,349 --> 00:43:42,953 You think that you can make more money by trading cards 1031 00:43:43,020 --> 00:43:44,822 than a college education is worth? 1032 00:43:44,888 --> 00:43:47,324 - It's fair to say that I can make more money on cards. 1033 00:43:47,391 --> 00:43:49,126 - Ripps is riding the wave 1034 00:43:49,193 --> 00:43:52,396 of one of the biggest investment booms in America-- 1035 00:43:52,463 --> 00:43:54,832 the boom in sports collectibles. 1036 00:43:54,898 --> 00:43:58,369 He's built an empire in just a few years, 1037 00:43:58,435 --> 00:44:00,971 starting when he was merely a young man 1038 00:44:01,038 --> 00:44:04,541 making small trades of inexpensive cards. 1039 00:44:04,608 --> 00:44:07,244 - I would buy some cards for $20 and sell them for $40 1040 00:44:07,311 --> 00:44:09,580 or some cards for $50 and sell 'em for $100. 1041 00:44:09,646 --> 00:44:12,082 And once I was able to kind of prove that this is something 1042 00:44:12,149 --> 00:44:14,084 I could sustain and something I could make money on, 1043 00:44:14,151 --> 00:44:15,652 I was able to convince my parents 1044 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,522 to give me $5,000 to spend 1045 00:44:18,589 --> 00:44:20,824 from my bar mitzvah money stash 1046 00:44:20,891 --> 00:44:24,094 and I put that into Giannis Antetokounmpo 1047 00:44:24,161 --> 00:44:26,630 back in 2015, and that turned out to be 1048 00:44:26,697 --> 00:44:29,199 one of the greatest investments I ever could've imagined. 1049 00:44:29,266 --> 00:44:32,002 - It was a good bar mitzvah. - It was a good bar mitzvah. 1050 00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:33,404 It was a good bar mitzvah. 1051 00:44:33,470 --> 00:44:36,106 - That's because soon after... 1052 00:44:36,173 --> 00:44:37,107 [crowd exclaims] 1053 00:44:37,174 --> 00:44:39,977 Giannis Antetokounmpo, the Greek Freak, 1054 00:44:40,044 --> 00:44:43,547 hit the NBA scene like a bolt from the blue, 1055 00:44:43,614 --> 00:44:46,817 sending the value of his cards soaring. 1056 00:44:46,884 --> 00:44:50,854 Suddenly flush with cash, Adam bought more cards 1057 00:44:50,921 --> 00:44:54,925 and by his junior year had amassed a huge collection. 1058 00:44:54,992 --> 00:44:57,361 That's when a second bolt hit from the blue-- 1059 00:44:57,428 --> 00:44:59,296 the COVID pandemic, 1060 00:44:59,363 --> 00:45:01,265 which devastated much of the world 1061 00:45:01,331 --> 00:45:03,434 but had a very different effect 1062 00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,036 on the world of sports trading cards. 1063 00:45:06,103 --> 00:45:07,104 - What happened is that 1064 00:45:07,171 --> 00:45:08,639 a lot of people got connected to sports cards 1065 00:45:08,705 --> 00:45:09,940 because of nostalgia, 1066 00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:12,009 because there was no sports betting going on anymore, 1067 00:45:12,076 --> 00:45:13,377 no more live sports. 1068 00:45:13,444 --> 00:45:15,412 And so a lot of people who collected as a kid 1069 00:45:15,479 --> 00:45:16,547 got back into it, 1070 00:45:16,613 --> 00:45:18,082 or they found their old collections in their house. 1071 00:45:18,148 --> 00:45:19,883 - With no sports on the field or the courts, 1072 00:45:19,950 --> 00:45:22,019 this became the action? - It became the action. 1073 00:45:22,086 --> 00:45:23,020 - As a result, 1074 00:45:23,087 --> 00:45:24,888 did you see prices jumping through the roof? 1075 00:45:24,955 --> 00:45:26,390 - Everything went up. 1076 00:45:26,457 --> 00:45:29,059 - Today Adam's collection is worth 1077 00:45:29,126 --> 00:45:31,962 an estimated $3 million. 1078 00:45:32,029 --> 00:45:34,198 His bedroom is decorated with some 1079 00:45:34,264 --> 00:45:37,801 of the most expensive pieces of cardboard around. 1080 00:45:37,868 --> 00:45:38,902 Michael Jordan. 1081 00:45:38,969 --> 00:45:41,138 - This one has been preserved in amazing shape. 1082 00:45:41,205 --> 00:45:43,307 Right now it's probably worth around $75,000. 1083 00:45:43,373 --> 00:45:44,842 - And you paid what for it? 1084 00:45:44,908 --> 00:45:47,344 - I bought this one over a year ago for $12,000. 1085 00:45:47,411 --> 00:45:49,246 - Okay. All right. What else we got here? 1086 00:45:49,313 --> 00:45:52,382 - I got this one for around $13,000. 1087 00:45:52,449 --> 00:45:55,452 Right now it would be probably be worth $80,000 to $100,000. 1088 00:45:55,519 --> 00:45:58,322 - But it's not just teenagers who have become wealthy 1089 00:45:58,388 --> 00:46:01,291 buying and selling little pieces of cardboard. 1090 00:46:01,358 --> 00:46:03,560 - I'll give you $500 in store credit. 1091 00:46:03,627 --> 00:46:06,630 - Nate Burns used to sell real estate for a living. 1092 00:46:06,697 --> 00:46:08,866 But even when the market was booming, 1093 00:46:08,932 --> 00:46:12,136 he never made close to what he's making these days 1094 00:46:12,202 --> 00:46:14,972 running a card shop outside of Nashville. 1095 00:46:15,038 --> 00:46:16,640 So I want to get this straight. 1096 00:46:16,707 --> 00:46:19,510 In a typical year as a realtor, 1097 00:46:19,576 --> 00:46:21,979 you were making $40,000, $50,000. 1098 00:46:22,045 --> 00:46:24,381 What are you making now? - Millions. 1099 00:46:24,448 --> 00:46:26,316 - Millions? - Millions. 1100 00:46:26,383 --> 00:46:28,752 - I tell people sometimes even now 1101 00:46:28,819 --> 00:46:30,854 that I'm afraid that I'm going to wake up 1102 00:46:30,921 --> 00:46:32,789 and it's the first day the store's open 1103 00:46:32,856 --> 00:46:34,091 and this was all a dream. 1104 00:46:34,158 --> 00:46:36,226 Order number 22! 1105 00:46:36,293 --> 00:46:39,229 Autographed letter patch book card. 1106 00:46:39,296 --> 00:46:41,865 - Burns says his business boomed during COVID 1107 00:46:41,932 --> 00:46:44,902 because he was able to do most of it online, 1108 00:46:44,968 --> 00:46:47,538 like the show he hosts every night 1109 00:46:47,604 --> 00:46:50,774 during which he sells packs of cards to his viewers, 1110 00:46:50,841 --> 00:46:53,510 then opens them to reveal what's inside. 1111 00:46:53,577 --> 00:46:55,345 - Ooh-hoo-hoo! 1112 00:46:55,412 --> 00:46:58,715 We open products for customers all over the world. 1113 00:46:58,782 --> 00:46:59,716 - Somebody says to you, 1114 00:46:59,783 --> 00:47:02,186 "I want to buy a pack or a box..." 1115 00:47:02,252 --> 00:47:03,787 - Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. - "Off your shelf." 1116 00:47:03,854 --> 00:47:06,356 And they'll let you open it. - Live. 1117 00:47:06,423 --> 00:47:07,658 - That's right. 1118 00:47:07,724 --> 00:47:11,662 Burns's customers actually pay him a few hundred bucks 1119 00:47:11,728 --> 00:47:13,997 to open their new packs... 1120 00:47:14,064 --> 00:47:16,867 - Big Mike! Ay, ay, ay, ay! 1121 00:47:16,934 --> 00:47:19,469 Let's go, baby! Let's go! 1122 00:47:19,536 --> 00:47:22,272 - Hoping that one of the mystery cards inside 1123 00:47:22,339 --> 00:47:24,808 will turn out to be worth a fortune. 1124 00:47:24,875 --> 00:47:28,745 It sounds like people who are watching the lottery numbers 1125 00:47:28,812 --> 00:47:30,314 announced on TV. 1126 00:47:30,380 --> 00:47:32,282 - Very good analogy. 1127 00:47:32,349 --> 00:47:35,252 - What's the biggest card you've revealed on your show? 1128 00:47:35,319 --> 00:47:37,888 - Well, we've hit three of the Luka Doncic 1129 00:47:37,955 --> 00:47:40,324 National Treasures rookie cards. 1130 00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:43,994 At the time we pulled 'em, they were $7,000 each. 1131 00:47:44,061 --> 00:47:46,296 Now, they're worth a quarter of million dollars each. 1132 00:47:46,363 --> 00:47:49,166 - How does that happen? - Supply and demand. 1133 00:47:49,233 --> 00:47:52,402 - That demand got so out of hand recently 1134 00:47:52,469 --> 00:47:53,670 that Target, 1135 00:47:53,737 --> 00:47:56,106 one of the country's largest chain stores, 1136 00:47:56,173 --> 00:47:57,741 stopped selling sports cards 1137 00:47:57,808 --> 00:48:00,711 after customers who had camped out all night 1138 00:48:00,777 --> 00:48:02,613 looking to load up on cards 1139 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:05,349 started fighting over their place in line, 1140 00:48:05,415 --> 00:48:08,652 with one person pulling out a gun. 1141 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:09,820 - Shoppers at a Brookfield Target 1142 00:48:09,886 --> 00:48:12,089 were forced to run and hide after a fight this morning 1143 00:48:12,155 --> 00:48:13,156 in the parking lot. 1144 00:48:13,223 --> 00:48:15,225 - Police say it all started with a disagreement 1145 00:48:15,292 --> 00:48:16,960 over trading cards. 1146 00:48:17,027 --> 00:48:19,062 - People are looking for the gold ticket. 1147 00:48:19,129 --> 00:48:20,897 - They're looking for the $20 bill on the shelf 1148 00:48:20,964 --> 00:48:23,200 that they can turn into a $100 bill. 1149 00:48:23,267 --> 00:48:25,135 - Or more. - Or more. 1150 00:48:25,202 --> 00:48:28,639 - Last month we watched as Burns prepared to leave town 1151 00:48:28,705 --> 00:48:32,643 for the Super Bowl of card conventions in Chicago. 1152 00:48:35,078 --> 00:48:37,147 He planned to be a major player 1153 00:48:37,214 --> 00:48:38,882 and prepared accordingly, 1154 00:48:38,949 --> 00:48:42,252 arming himself with millions of dollars' worth of cards 1155 00:48:42,319 --> 00:48:47,057 and $500,000 in cold, hard cash. 1156 00:48:47,124 --> 00:48:51,194 He didn't fly commercial but on a private jet, 1157 00:48:51,261 --> 00:48:55,065 befitting his new status as an investment tycoon. 1158 00:48:55,132 --> 00:48:57,167 By the time we caught up with him again 1159 00:48:57,234 --> 00:48:58,902 just a few hours later, 1160 00:48:58,969 --> 00:49:00,337 Burns had already done 1161 00:49:00,404 --> 00:49:03,373 more than $400,000 worth of business. 1162 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,043 What's the most expensive card you've sold here? 1163 00:49:06,109 --> 00:49:09,012 - Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, triple autograph. 1164 00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:11,548 - And that went for how much? - $150,000. 1165 00:49:11,615 --> 00:49:13,116 - And there were sales like this 1166 00:49:13,183 --> 00:49:15,218 all over the convention hall-- 1167 00:49:15,285 --> 00:49:18,822 fans celebrating the golden age of sports cards. 1168 00:49:18,889 --> 00:49:21,124 - It is like no other time in the history of this business. 1169 00:49:21,191 --> 00:49:23,827 - Mike Gioseffi is an industry expert 1170 00:49:23,894 --> 00:49:26,129 who hosts a podcast on The Ringer. 1171 00:49:26,196 --> 00:49:27,197 - Every couple months now, 1172 00:49:27,264 --> 00:49:29,433 it seems like we're seeing a new highest card ever. 1173 00:49:29,499 --> 00:49:32,269 Million-dollar cards were not really a thing ten years ago, 1174 00:49:32,336 --> 00:49:33,537 and now just yesterday at the show, 1175 00:49:33,603 --> 00:49:34,838 somebody bought a Patrick Mahomes rookie 1176 00:49:34,905 --> 00:49:36,773 for over $4 million. 1177 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,176 Couple weeks before that, it was a Babe Ruth--$6 million. 1178 00:49:39,242 --> 00:49:40,677 LeBron for a million before that. 1179 00:49:40,744 --> 00:49:42,512 - And then I'm gonna keep those cards, 1180 00:49:42,579 --> 00:49:44,314 and I'm gonna put 'em out on my mantel place, 1181 00:49:44,381 --> 00:49:45,816 or I'm gonna put 'em up on the wall? 1182 00:49:45,882 --> 00:49:46,883 - I hope you live in a nice area. 1183 00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:48,952 I'm not putting a $5 million card on my mantel. 1184 00:49:49,019 --> 00:49:50,554 But I think almost all these guys, 1185 00:49:50,620 --> 00:49:51,955 it's going in a vault somewhere. 1186 00:49:52,022 --> 00:49:53,957 - And that's precisely where 1187 00:49:54,024 --> 00:49:56,326 real estate mogul Kurt Rappaport 1188 00:49:56,393 --> 00:50:01,198 keeps his collection-- in a vault in Beverly Hills. 1189 00:50:01,264 --> 00:50:04,167 And when he wants to transport his cards anywhere, 1190 00:50:04,234 --> 00:50:06,903 like to his beach house just up 1191 00:50:06,970 --> 00:50:09,339 the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu, 1192 00:50:09,406 --> 00:50:12,676 his insurance company requires that he does so 1193 00:50:12,743 --> 00:50:15,245 with armed security... 1194 00:50:15,312 --> 00:50:17,314 lots of security. 1195 00:50:17,381 --> 00:50:19,116 I'm Jon. - Jon, pleasure. 1196 00:50:19,182 --> 00:50:21,618 - Really nice to meet you. - Good to meet you. 1197 00:50:21,685 --> 00:50:23,286 - You got some pretty precious cargo there, huh? 1198 00:50:23,353 --> 00:50:24,354 - We do. Yes. 1199 00:50:24,421 --> 00:50:26,556 - How many cards do you have in there? 1200 00:50:26,623 --> 00:50:28,058 - We have about 24. 1201 00:50:28,125 --> 00:50:31,228 - What are those 24 cards estimated to be worth? 1202 00:50:31,294 --> 00:50:32,362 - Well... [sighs] 1203 00:50:32,429 --> 00:50:33,430 According to the insurance company, 1204 00:50:33,497 --> 00:50:34,898 it's about $40 million. 1205 00:50:34,965 --> 00:50:36,500 - $40 million? - Yeah. 1206 00:50:36,566 --> 00:50:38,268 - You got that handcuffed to your wrist? 1207 00:50:38,335 --> 00:50:40,737 - [chuckles] I don't, but I got good backup. 1208 00:50:41,938 --> 00:50:44,408 - Rappaport says that during the pandemic, 1209 00:50:44,474 --> 00:50:47,177 while stuck at home without much to do, 1210 00:50:47,244 --> 00:50:49,346 he started researching sports cards 1211 00:50:49,413 --> 00:50:51,982 and thought they'd make for a wise investment, 1212 00:50:52,048 --> 00:50:54,351 especially after learning they have outperformed 1213 00:50:54,418 --> 00:50:58,121 the S&P 500 over the last 20 years. 1214 00:50:58,188 --> 00:51:00,657 Before long, he was all-in, 1215 00:51:00,724 --> 00:51:04,628 even buying one of the most coveted cards of them all-- 1216 00:51:04,694 --> 00:51:09,599 the famous Honus Wagner T206. 1217 00:51:09,666 --> 00:51:12,903 - Honus Wagner's card is the Holy Grail of all sports cards. 1218 00:51:12,969 --> 00:51:15,372 - You paid what for it? - $3.7 million. 1219 00:51:15,439 --> 00:51:17,374 - Did that make you gulp? 1220 00:51:17,441 --> 00:51:19,609 - No, because I thought it was a great deal, 1221 00:51:19,676 --> 00:51:22,846 and in retrospect, it was a tremendous deal. 1222 00:51:22,913 --> 00:51:24,514 I've had people offer me, you know, 1223 00:51:24,581 --> 00:51:26,450 2 1/2 times what I paid. 1224 00:51:26,516 --> 00:51:28,251 - And you've said no? - I've said no. 1225 00:51:28,318 --> 00:51:29,252 - Why? 1226 00:51:29,319 --> 00:51:30,554 - 'Cause I wouldn't have the card anymore. 1227 00:51:30,620 --> 00:51:31,688 [chuckles] 1228 00:51:31,755 --> 00:51:33,056 - But you don't have the card anyway. 1229 00:51:33,123 --> 00:51:34,124 It's in the bank. 1230 00:51:34,191 --> 00:51:35,692 - I go visit it frequently. 1231 00:51:35,759 --> 00:51:38,395 I'm a frequent visitor to the vault. 1232 00:51:38,462 --> 00:51:39,896 - Have your friends ever said to you, 1233 00:51:39,963 --> 00:51:41,097 "Wait a minute. 1234 00:51:41,164 --> 00:51:43,366 That's a ton of money to put into a piece of cardboard." 1235 00:51:43,433 --> 00:51:44,601 - I heard it all. 1236 00:51:44,668 --> 00:51:47,704 And, "You're crazy," "What are you thinking?" 1237 00:51:47,771 --> 00:51:49,973 You know, "It's a baseball card." 1238 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,875 And then I started explaining that, no, 1239 00:51:51,942 --> 00:51:53,210 there's an exact science to it. 1240 00:51:53,276 --> 00:51:55,412 If you buy the most beautiful cards, 1241 00:51:55,479 --> 00:51:57,147 there's always gonna be a value for that. 1242 00:51:57,214 --> 00:52:00,283 - And that's exactly how Rappaport says he went about 1243 00:52:00,350 --> 00:52:02,853 building another one of his collections. 1244 00:52:02,919 --> 00:52:04,521 Look anywhere on his walls, 1245 00:52:04,588 --> 00:52:08,391 and you will see one masterpiece after another. 1246 00:52:08,458 --> 00:52:10,627 He told us he considers his sports cards 1247 00:52:10,694 --> 00:52:12,395 to be no different, 1248 00:52:12,462 --> 00:52:17,200 from Jackie Robinson to Babe Ruth to Henry Aaron. 1249 00:52:17,267 --> 00:52:19,803 - I really wanted things that I reacted to, 1250 00:52:19,870 --> 00:52:21,605 things where I would look at and say, 1251 00:52:21,671 --> 00:52:22,772 "That's a beautiful card. 1252 00:52:22,839 --> 00:52:24,274 That looks like a Warhol to me." 1253 00:52:24,341 --> 00:52:28,144 - Don't laugh, because Rappaport is not the only one 1254 00:52:28,211 --> 00:52:31,882 who considers sports cards to be akin to great works of art. 1255 00:52:31,948 --> 00:52:34,150 So does--ready for this? 1256 00:52:34,217 --> 00:52:35,986 The FBI. 1257 00:52:36,052 --> 00:52:37,053 That's right. 1258 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,990 Back at the sports card convention in Chicago, 1259 00:52:40,056 --> 00:52:44,094 the FBI's art crime team was on the lookout for fraudsters, 1260 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,331 people trying to pass off phony cards for big bucks. 1261 00:52:48,398 --> 00:52:50,166 We're talking about trading cards, 1262 00:52:50,233 --> 00:52:53,703 and yet this falls under a category of art crime. 1263 00:52:53,770 --> 00:52:54,871 Is that right? - Correct. 1264 00:52:54,938 --> 00:52:57,974 There's such a high dollar amount 1265 00:52:58,041 --> 00:52:59,843 going through this industry right now, 1266 00:52:59,910 --> 00:53:02,846 nobody should be shocked that we are looking to root out 1267 00:53:02,913 --> 00:53:03,947 the bad players within the-- 1268 00:53:04,014 --> 00:53:06,783 - Brian Brusokas is an FBI agent. 1269 00:53:06,850 --> 00:53:08,785 Are you seeing the same sorts of things 1270 00:53:08,852 --> 00:53:11,621 in the card-trading business that you see in the art world? 1271 00:53:11,688 --> 00:53:15,392 Fraud and fakes and forgeries? - Absolutely. 1272 00:53:15,458 --> 00:53:17,861 - Can you put a dollar figure on the amount of fraud 1273 00:53:17,928 --> 00:53:19,563 in this business each year? 1274 00:53:19,629 --> 00:53:23,233 - In the millions. It's a billion-dollar industry. 1275 00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:27,537 - And recently, that industry took yet another leap forward, 1276 00:53:27,604 --> 00:53:31,274 expanding the market into the virtual world. 1277 00:53:31,341 --> 00:53:33,476 While all of the cards for sale in Chicago 1278 00:53:33,543 --> 00:53:36,246 could be touched, held, and traded, 1279 00:53:36,313 --> 00:53:39,049 a new kind of card was recently created 1280 00:53:39,115 --> 00:53:41,718 that exists only online. 1281 00:53:41,785 --> 00:53:44,154 The NBA has begun selling video highlights 1282 00:53:44,220 --> 00:53:45,255 as collectibles 1283 00:53:45,322 --> 00:53:49,159 under the brand name NBA Top Shot. 1284 00:53:49,225 --> 00:53:51,695 - So NBA Top Shot in its simples form 1285 00:53:51,761 --> 00:53:53,930 is just digital basketball cards. 1286 00:53:53,997 --> 00:53:56,499 And so think about anything that you know 1287 00:53:56,566 --> 00:53:58,435 about physical sports cards 1288 00:53:58,501 --> 00:54:01,304 and take away the physical, actual piece of cardboard, 1289 00:54:01,371 --> 00:54:03,006 and that's Top Shot. 1290 00:54:03,073 --> 00:54:05,675 - It's just online? - Exactly right. 1291 00:54:05,742 --> 00:54:08,645 - When he's not working at his day job in finance, 1292 00:54:08,712 --> 00:54:12,649 32-year-old Michael Levy loves watching sports, 1293 00:54:12,716 --> 00:54:14,484 especially basketball. 1294 00:54:14,551 --> 00:54:18,588 So one day last fall when he saw that the NBA had started 1295 00:54:18,655 --> 00:54:22,759 selling individual highlights of players, he was intrigued 1296 00:54:22,826 --> 00:54:26,663 and, before long, started buying them up. 1297 00:54:26,730 --> 00:54:28,965 How much did you invest when you first got into this game? 1298 00:54:29,032 --> 00:54:33,136 - I invested between $175,000 and $200,000. 1299 00:54:33,203 --> 00:54:36,506 - I assume that $200,000 grew substantially. 1300 00:54:36,573 --> 00:54:39,909 - It topped out at around $20 million. 1301 00:54:39,976 --> 00:54:43,780 - Of course, what goes up can also come down, 1302 00:54:43,847 --> 00:54:46,349 especially in a trendy, new market. 1303 00:54:46,416 --> 00:54:51,521 And today Levy's collection is worth a mere $12 million. 1304 00:54:51,588 --> 00:54:54,024 Still, it's a staggering number, 1305 00:54:54,090 --> 00:54:55,592 especially to the many people 1306 00:54:55,659 --> 00:54:59,462 who can't quite grasp this strange, new idea. 1307 00:54:59,529 --> 00:55:03,533 Explain to me the value of having a video highlight 1308 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,671 if I can go on any online service almost 1309 00:55:07,737 --> 00:55:09,806 and pull up that highlight? 1310 00:55:09,873 --> 00:55:13,610 Any sports broadcasting network could show that highlight. 1311 00:55:13,677 --> 00:55:15,945 What makes it special that you have that? 1312 00:55:16,012 --> 00:55:17,447 - What makes the Top Shot moment valuable 1313 00:55:17,514 --> 00:55:21,718 is that it's an authentic licensed product from the NBA 1314 00:55:21,785 --> 00:55:25,288 that has verifiable scarcity and a market around it. 1315 00:55:25,355 --> 00:55:26,856 - Isn't a collectible 1316 00:55:26,923 --> 00:55:29,492 about being able to hold it in your hand, 1317 00:55:29,559 --> 00:55:31,327 to appreciate it, to put it on your shelf? 1318 00:55:31,394 --> 00:55:33,630 - So I'd say, traditionally, that's the case. 1319 00:55:33,697 --> 00:55:35,665 But the world's moving more digital, 1320 00:55:35,732 --> 00:55:37,667 and what I'm hopeful for 1321 00:55:37,734 --> 00:55:40,003 is that these sorts of digital assets 1322 00:55:40,070 --> 00:55:43,506 are seen as the new-age version of sports cards. 1323 00:55:43,573 --> 00:55:45,642 - But all of this begs the question-- 1324 00:55:45,709 --> 00:55:48,378 after a year of unprecedented growth 1325 00:55:48,445 --> 00:55:51,681 that has made lots of people fabulously wealthy, 1326 00:55:51,748 --> 00:55:53,717 will the market for sports cards, 1327 00:55:53,783 --> 00:55:55,218 both traditional 1328 00:55:55,285 --> 00:55:57,554 and digital, burst? 1329 00:55:57,620 --> 00:56:00,056 Perhaps no one has more on the line 1330 00:56:00,123 --> 00:56:02,592 than 18-year-old Adam Ripps, 1331 00:56:02,659 --> 00:56:04,627 the teenager who's skipping college 1332 00:56:04,694 --> 00:56:07,664 to make sports cards his life's work. 1333 00:56:07,731 --> 00:56:10,100 Are you concerned that this could crash? 1334 00:56:10,166 --> 00:56:12,502 I mean, when you say your collection's worth $3 million, 1335 00:56:12,569 --> 00:56:15,839 maybe in a week from now, it's worth a fraction of that. 1336 00:56:15,905 --> 00:56:18,408 - I think it's cyclical. and so like every market, 1337 00:56:18,475 --> 00:56:19,776 there's going to be ups and downs. 1338 00:56:19,843 --> 00:56:22,212 A lot of people like art, a lot of people like watches, 1339 00:56:22,278 --> 00:56:25,148 and there's a ton of people that love sports cards. 1340 00:56:25,215 --> 00:56:27,050 My friends, my generation, 1341 00:56:27,117 --> 00:56:28,218 I don't think we're gonna grow up 1342 00:56:28,284 --> 00:56:31,688 wanting a, you know, a Pollock or a Monet or a Picasso. 1343 00:56:31,755 --> 00:56:33,923 I think they're gonna want, like, a Jordan rookie card 1344 00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:37,160 or a Giannis or a Luka or a Hank Aaron. 1345 00:56:37,227 --> 00:56:38,728 So the fact that people are looking at these 1346 00:56:38,795 --> 00:56:41,297 as real tangible assets now is super cool. 1347 00:56:41,364 --> 00:56:46,102 ♪ ♪ 1348 00:56:46,169 --> 00:56:48,605 - Jon, just based on what I saw on tape, 1349 00:56:48,671 --> 00:56:51,641 the people immersed in this are, in the main, 1350 00:56:51,708 --> 00:56:53,543 young, white, male. 1351 00:56:53,610 --> 00:56:56,045 Fair? - Fair. Absolutely. 1352 00:56:56,112 --> 00:56:58,081 I mean, when we were at the national convention show, 1353 00:56:58,148 --> 00:56:59,582 you didn't see much different than that. 1354 00:56:59,649 --> 00:57:01,618 - Yeah, what I also saw on the tape 1355 00:57:01,684 --> 00:57:04,554 at these trade shows was an awful lot of cash. 1356 00:57:04,621 --> 00:57:06,856 Is it a cash business? - There is a lot of cash. 1357 00:57:06,923 --> 00:57:08,525 There's also a lot done digitally, 1358 00:57:08,591 --> 00:57:09,759 especially with COVID now. 1359 00:57:09,826 --> 00:57:11,294 People were trading cards that way. 1360 00:57:11,361 --> 00:57:13,496 So I think that when you're talking 1361 00:57:13,563 --> 00:57:16,466 about million-dollar cards, that's all being monitored, 1362 00:57:16,533 --> 00:57:17,667 that's being watched by people, 1363 00:57:17,734 --> 00:57:19,402 but, yeah, there's people exchanging cash here. 1364 00:57:19,469 --> 00:57:22,272 - So let's talk fair share. IRS getting their fair share? 1365 00:57:22,338 --> 00:57:23,439 - I'm guessing they are, 1366 00:57:23,506 --> 00:57:24,741 especially when you're talking 1367 00:57:24,808 --> 00:57:25,742 about the high end of the cards. 1368 00:57:25,809 --> 00:57:27,710 I mean, it's a fairly monitored business. 1369 00:57:27,777 --> 00:57:29,445 I mean, when you think that the FBI is in there 1370 00:57:29,512 --> 00:57:30,814 watching for fraud... - Yeah. 1371 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:31,948 - I think they're watching everything. 1372 00:57:32,015 --> 00:57:33,817 - What about the essential workers of this business, 1373 00:57:33,883 --> 00:57:35,718 which is the athletes who drive the cards? 1374 00:57:35,785 --> 00:57:36,920 Are they getting their fair share? 1375 00:57:36,986 --> 00:57:37,921 - I think they are. 1376 00:57:37,987 --> 00:57:38,922 I think the players' associations 1377 00:57:38,988 --> 00:57:40,857 are more hip to it now, and they're making deals 1378 00:57:40,924 --> 00:57:43,126 that enhance the pocketbooks of the players, 1379 00:57:43,193 --> 00:57:45,862 and also the players are now actively participating 1380 00:57:45,929 --> 00:57:46,896 in this collection, 1381 00:57:46,963 --> 00:57:48,798 so they're making money as collectors as well. 1382 00:57:48,865 --> 00:57:50,500 - Whatever goes up has to come down. 1383 00:57:50,567 --> 00:57:52,135 Is this bubble gonna burst anytime soon? 1384 00:57:52,202 --> 00:57:53,336 - I mean, that's the big question. 1385 00:57:53,403 --> 00:57:55,405 Kurt Rappaport would say that when he did his homework 1386 00:57:55,471 --> 00:57:58,007 that the trading card market outperformed the S&P 1387 00:57:58,074 --> 00:58:00,677 over the last 20 years, so who knows? 1388 00:58:00,743 --> 00:58:04,147 I mean, stock markets crash. This could crash as well. 1389 00:58:04,214 --> 00:58:06,049 - I had cards as a kid. Didn't keep 'em. 1390 00:58:06,115 --> 00:58:07,116 Did you keep yours? - No. 1391 00:58:07,183 --> 00:58:09,219 No, those cardboard boxes went out a long time ago. 1392 00:58:09,285 --> 00:58:10,353 - Shows what we know. - Yeah. 1393 00:58:10,420 --> 00:58:12,021 - Hey, Jon. Thanks very much. - You got it. 1394 00:58:12,088 --> 00:58:14,023 - We'll let that be our last word for this evening. 1395 00:58:14,090 --> 00:58:15,325 For all the good folks here at "Real Sports," 1396 00:58:15,391 --> 00:58:16,459 I'm Bryant Gumbel. 1397 00:58:16,526 --> 00:58:17,727 Thank you so very much for being with us. 1398 00:58:17,794 --> 00:58:19,462 Please stay safe and good night. 1399 00:58:19,529 --> 00:58:24,767 ♪ ♪