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(\TICKING\) >> LIES, DEEP-STATE HOAXES AND SLANDER ON SOCIAL MEDIA

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ARE WRECKING THE LIVES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. AND YET, A

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FEDERAL LAW KNOWN AS SECTION 230 HELPS IT TO HAPPEN.

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ONE EXAMPLE? THE MYTH THAT THIS IRAQ WAR VETERAN IS

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THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CORONAVIRUS. WHAT HAS THIS MEANT

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TO YOU? >> ONCE MY ADDRESS WAS POSTED, THAT WAS

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IT FOR ME. BECAUSE THEY PUT ME IN DANGER. MY

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FAMILY. >> THERE WAS LIKE 60 OR 70 DEATH THREATS

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OVER THE SPAN OF, YOU KNOW, FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS.

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(\TICKING\) >> THIS CASE IS UNPRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY OF

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THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM. >> CURTIS FLOWERS, A BLACK MAN

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FROM MISSISSIPPI, WAS TRIED SIX TIMES FOR THE SAME CRIME,

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BY THE SAME PROSECUTOR. MR. FLOWERS MIGHT STILL BE ON

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DEATH ROW IF IT WASN'T FOR AN INVESTIGATION LED BY

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THESE TWO WOMEN... >> IT'S BEEN MORE THAN THREE YEARS

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SINCE I GOT AN EMAIL FROM A WOMAN TELLING ME

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ABOUT A MAN NAMED CURTIS FLOWERS. >> ...AND THEIR RELENTLESS

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REPORTING. >> TO RING IN 2021 WITH THE FANFARE IT

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DESERVES, WE BRING YOU THE STORY OF PIANIST IGOR LEVIT,

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A 33-YEAR-OLD CLASSICAL COLOSSUS. LEVITT TOLD US HE MISSES HIS

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AUDIENCES DREADFULLY. SO TONIGHT, WE THOUGHT WE'D INTRODUCE HIM TO

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OURS. (\TICKING\) >> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER.

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>> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. >> I'M

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JON WERTHEIM. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES, TONIGHT, ON

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"60 MINUTES." >> Pelley: A PRIORITY OF THE NEW PRESIDENT

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AND CONGRESS WILL BE REINING IN THE GIANTS OF SOCIAL

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MEDIA. ON THIS, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AGREE. THEIR TARGET IS

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A FEDERAL LAW KNOWN AS "SECTION 230." IN A SINGLE

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SENTENCE, IT SET OFF THE "BIG BANG," HELPING TO CREATE

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THE UNIVERSE OF GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND THE REST. SOME

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CRITICS OF THE LAW SAY THAT IT LEAVES SOCIAL MEDIA

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FREE TO IGNORE LIES, HOAXES AND SLANDER THAT CAN WRECK

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THE LIVES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. ONE OF THOSE CRITICS IS

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LENNY POZNER. AFTER A TRAGEDY IN HIS OWN LIFE, POZNER

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HAS BECOME A CHAMPION FOR VICTIMS OF ONLINE LIES-- PEOPLE

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INCLUDING MAATJE AND MATT BENASSI, WHO OVERNIGHT BECAME THE TARGET

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OF DEATH THREATS LIKE THESE. >> Maatje Benassi: "WE'RE GOING

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TO PUT A BULLET IN HER SKULL." "LET'S LOAD UP

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THE TRUCKS." "LET'S GO GET THEM." "LET'S HANG THEM." THEY

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POSTED OUR ADDRESS, OUR FULL ADDRESS, WHERE WE LIVE. >>

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Pelley: THE HATE FOCUSED ON MAATJE AND MATT BENASSI WAS

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UNLEASHED BY A HOAX THAT CLAIMS SHE BROUGHT COVID-19 INTO

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THE WORLD. >> Matt Benassi: IT'S CHANGED AND MIGRATED OVER

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THE 70-PLUS VIDEOS THAT THEY'VE HAD ABOUT US, BUT-- >>

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Pelley: WAIT, 70? >> Matt Benassi: YEAH. IF YOU ACTUALLY

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GO THROUGH ALL OF THE VIDEOS, THERE IS A TOTAL

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70 VIDEOS, ACROSS MULTIPLE YOUTUBE CHANNELS. >> Pelley: THE VIDEOS

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CLAIM MAATJE BENASSI CARRIED THE VIRUS TO CHINA ON A

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BICYCLE. SHE WAS INVITED THERE AS A MEMBER OF A

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U.S. MILITARY CYCLING TEAM. MAATJE IS A DUTCH IMMIGRANT-- AMERICAN

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CITIZEN AND SOLIDER-- WHO SERVED IN IRAQ. IN 2019, DURING

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AN INTERNATIONAL MILITARY OLYMPICS, SHE CRASHED IN WUHAN, WHERE COVID-19

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WAS DISCOVERED TWO MONTHS LATER. HER COLLISION WITH THE INTERNET

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BEGAN AFTER AN INNOCENT ARTICLE ABOUT THE RACE. >> Maatje

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Benassi: AND SOMEBODY CAME ACROSS IT, AND IT HAD "WUHAN"

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IN IT, AND THEY TOOK A RUN WITH IT. "OH,

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WE GOT A PERSON." >> Pelley: YOUR NAME, THE NAME

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"WUHAN," AND THE REST ONLY TAKES A LOT OF IMAGINATION.

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>> Maatje Benassi: CORRECT. >> Pelley: WHAT WERE THEY SAYING

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ABOUT YOU? >> Maatje Benassi: FIRST THEY SAID I BROUGHT

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IT TO CHINA. AND WHEN I CRASHED, I SPREAD IT.

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AND THAT I SPREAD IT IN THE HOSPITAL-- WHICH, I

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NEVER WAS IN A HOSPITAL. ALL THESE LIES ABOUT VIALS

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IN MY BICYCLE, HIDDEN. AND, I HAVE NO IDEA. >>

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George Webb: IT'S GOING TO BE THIS PERSON BY THE

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NAME OF MAATJA BENASSI, AND WE'RE-- >> Pelley: THE ABSURDITY

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WAS SPELLED OUT, LITERALLY, BY A HOAX-PEDDLER NAMED GEORGE WEBB.

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HE HAS A FOLLOWING AMONG THE" DEEP STATE" PHONY CONSPIRACY

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CROWD. WHAT HAS THIS MEANT TO YOU? >> Maatje Benassi:

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I WAS LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER A LOT. I WAS

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SCARED FOR MY LIFE >> Pelley: YOU WERE TAKING ALL

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THAT SERIOUSLY? >> Maatje Benassi: YES. ONCE MY ADDRESS WAS

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POSTED, THAT WAS IT FOR ME. THAT DID IT. BECAUSE

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THEY PUT ME IN DANGER. MY FAMILY. >> Matt Benassi:

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THERE WAS LIKE 60 OR 70 DEATH THREATS OVER THE

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SPAN OF, YOU KNOW, FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS. >> Pelley:

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THEY CALLED THE POLICE AND THE F.B.I., WHICH GOT THEM

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NOWHERE. >> Matt Benassi: AND THE REASON WHY THE F.B.I.

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AND THE POLICE DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU IS

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BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE'RE RECEIVING DEATH THREATS, THEY DIDN'T SAY,

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"WE'RE COMING TO THE BENASSIS TO KILL THEM\TONIGHT." >> Pelley:

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THEY NEED A CRIME TO HAVE BEEN COMMITTED. >> Matt

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Benassi: THAT'S CORRECT. >> Pelley: AND YOU'RE TRYING TO \PREVENT\A

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CRIME FROM BEING COMMITTED. >> Matt Benassi: ABSOLUTELY. >> Pelley:

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RIGHT ABOUT NOW, YOU MIGHT BE THINKING THEY SHOULD SUE--

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BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM. THEY CAN'T FILE HUNDREDS OF LAWSUITS

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AGAINST INTERNET TROLLS HIDING BEHIND ALIASES. AND THEY CAN'T SUE

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THE INTERNET PLATFORMS BECAUSE OF THAT LAW KNOWN AS SECTION

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230 OF THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT OF 1996. WRITTEN BEFORE

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FACEBOOK OR GOOGLE WERE INVENTED, SECTION 230 SAYS, IN JUST

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26 WORDS, THAT INTERNET PLATFORMS ARE NOT LIABLE FOR WHAT

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THEIR USERS POST. >> Jeff Kosseff: THAT MEANS THAT IF

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I WERE TO POST SOMETHING ABOUT YOU ON FACEBOOK THAT

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WAS AWFUL AND DEFAMATORY, AND YOU ACTUALLY HAD A VIABLE

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DEFAMATION LAWSUIT, YOU COULD SUE\ME,\BUT YOU CAN'T SUE FACEBOOK. >>

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Pelley: JEFF KOSSEFF TEACHES LAW AND WROTE A BOOK CALLED

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"THE 26 WORDS THAT CREATED THE INTERNET." BUT, HELP ME

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UNDERSTAND, THE SAME IS NOT TRUE FOR OTHER FORMS OF

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MEDIA? IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING DEFAMATORY ON "60 MINUTES" OR

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ON FOX OR CNN OR IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES,"

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THOSE ORGANIZATIONS CAN BE SUED. SO, WHY NOT GOOGLE, YOUTUBE,

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FACEBOOK? >> Kosseff: SO, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SOCIAL MEDIA

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SITE AND, LET'S SAY, THE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR PAGE

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OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES," IS THE VAST AMOUNT OF

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CONTENT THAT THEY DELIVER. SO, I MEAN, YOU MIGHT HAVE

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FIVE OR TEN LETTERS TO THE EDITOR ON A PAGE.

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YOU COULD HAVE-- I THINK IT'S 6,000 TWEETS PER SECOND.

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AND SO, SECTION 230 REALLY RECOGNIZES HOW EXCEPTIONAL THE INTERNET

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IS AND SAYS, "WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE THIS MARKETPLACE OF

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IDEAS." 25 YEARS LATER, THAT MARKETPLACE HAS A LOT OF

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REALLY GREAT STUFF, BUT IT ALSO HAS A LOT OF

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REALLY TERRIBLE PRODUCTS IN THAT MARKETPLACE. AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S

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DRIVING THIS DEBATE RIGHT NOW. >> Pelley: MAATJE AND MATT

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BENASSI QUICKLY DISCOVERED THE LAW WAS NOT ON THEIR SIDE,

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SO THEY TURNED TO LENNY POZNER, WHO HAD SUFFERED IN

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THE SAME WAY. >> Lenny Pozner: I WAS BEING ATTACKED.

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THE MEMORY OF MY SON-- MY SON'S VERY SHORT LIFE,

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WAS BEING ATTACKED. AND I JUST WASN'T GOING TO STAND

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FOR THAT. >> Pelley: THE VERY SHORT LIFE OF POZNER'S

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SON, NOAH, ENDED AT CONNECTICUT'S SANDY HOOK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN

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2012, WITH 25 OTHERS. THE GUNSHOTS OF A MADMAN HAVE

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RICOCHETED ONLINE EVER SINCE. >> Pozner: CONVERSATIONS DENYING THE TRAGEDY,

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ACCUSING THE GOVERNMENT OF STAGING IT. >> Pelley: WHAT WAS

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THE MOST HURTFUL THING THEY SAID ABOUT YOU? >> Pozner:

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THAT NOAH DID NOT DIE. THAT I'M NOT NOAH'S FATHER.

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IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND THE NOTION THAT THESE ARE STAGED

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SHOOTINGS, THAT THEY'RE SCRIPTED EVENTS, THAT I'M AN ACTOR, THAT

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I'M PAID TO FAKE THE DEATH OF A CHILD. >>

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Pelley: BEFORE THE COVID PANDEMIC, WE HIRED THEATRICAL MAKEUP ARTISTS

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TO DISGUISE POZNER FOR HIS SAFETY. HE'S PURSUED BY DEATH

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THREATS. ONE WOMAN LEFT A VOICE MAIL SAYING, "DEATH IS

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COMING FOR YOU REAL SOON." SHE LANDED IN PRISON, SOONER.

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HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HAD TO MOVE YOUR FAMILY?

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>> Pozner: AROUND SEVEN TIMES. >> Pelley: HE'S TARGETED BECAUSE

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HE'S INVENTED WAYS TO FIGHT BACK. HE COPYRIGHTED PHOTOS OF

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HIS SON, TO CONTROL HOW THEY'RE ARE USED. HE PUBLISHED

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A LETTER TO FACEBOOK'S C.E.O. THAT READ," YOU HAVE DEEMED

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OUR LIVES ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN PROVIDING A SAFE HAVEN

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FOR HATE." THIS WAS MEANT BY YOU AND YOUR EX-WIFE

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TO BE PUBLIC SHAMING OF FACEBOOK? >> Pozner: THAT HAS

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BEEN REALLY THE ONLY EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET CHANGE FOR

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ONLINE PLATFORMS. >> Pelley: AFTER THE LETTER, A FACEBOOK MANAGER

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CALLED POZNER. >> Pozner: IT BEGAN A RELATIONSHIP WITH FACEBOOK

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THAT HELPED THEM LEARN ABOUT THE MATERIAL THAT IS BEING

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POSTED ON THEIR PLATFORM, AND HOW IT IS ABUSIVE, DEFAMATORY.

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>> Pelley: HAVE YOU SEEN A DIFFERENCE-- A PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE--

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IN FACEBOOK? >> Pozner: YES, IT'S ALMOST ALL GONE. >>

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Pelley: POZNER EXPANDED HIS WORK INTO A NON-PROFIT, CALLED THE

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HONR NETWORK, THAT APPLIES WHAT HE HAS LEARNED TO HELP

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OTHERS. >> Andy Parker: THAT'S WHEN I REACHED OUT TO

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LENNY POZNER. HE HAD VOLUNTEERS THAT WERE FIGHTING HARASSMENT, AND

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I SAID, "LENNY, I WANT THIS VIDEO TO COME DOWN."

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AND HE SAID, "I WILL HELP YOU DO THAT." >>

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Pelley: BY HIMSELF, ANDY PARKER COULDN'T GET VIDEO OF HIS

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DAUGHTER'S MURDER OFF OF GOOGLE'S YOUTUBE. >> Parker: I REALLY

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EXPECTED THEM TO DO THE RIGHT THING. THEIR MOTTO WAS,

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"DON'T BE EVIL." AND, FOR A WHILE, THEY DID A

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PRETTY GOOD JOB OF IT. BUT NOW, THEY ARE THE

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PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL. >> Pelley: IN 2015, REPORTER ALISON PARKER

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AND CAMERAMAN ADAM WARD WERE SHOT, ON CAMERA, BY A

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FIRED CO-WORKER. THE SCENE HAS BEEN POSTED HUNDREDS OF TIMES.

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THIS ONE GOT MORE THAN 600,000 VIEWS. AND TO THE

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RIGHT, THE AUTOMATIC AD MEANS THE PERSON WHO POSTED THIS

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MADE MONEY-- AND SO DID YOUTUBE. >> Parker: WE SHOULDN'T

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HAVE TO BE THE ONES POLICING THEIR PLATFORM. THEIR TERMS

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OF SERVICE SAY, "WE DON'T ALLOW THIS. WE DON'T ALLOW

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VIOLENT CONTENT. WE DON'T ALLOW HARASSMENT." MY BIGGEST BEEF WITH

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GOOGLE, AND YOUTUBE,\AND\FACEBOOK, FOR THAT MATTER, IS, THAT VIDEO IS

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STILL OUT THERE. IT'S STILL OUT THERE TODAY. IN ESSENCE,

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THEY PROFIT FROM MY DAUGHTER'S MURDER. AND I CAN'T ABIDE

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BY THAT. >> Pelley: DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THREATS? >>

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Parker: NO, I REALLY DON'T. >> Pelley: WHY DO YOU

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FEEL SO BRAVE? >> Parker: BECAUSE ALISON WOULD EXPECT NOTHING

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LESS. >> Pelley: YOU'RE STILL HER DAD. >> Parker: YEAH,

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I'M HER DAD. ALWAYS WILL BE, AND I WILL FIGHT

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LIKE HELL FOR HER. >> Pelley: LENNY POZNER FLAGGED ALISON

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PARKER VIDEOS FOR YOUTUBE TO REMOVE. YOUTUBE WROTE US, "THERE

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IS NO PLACE ON YOUTUBE FOR CONTENT THAT EXPLOITS THIS

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HORRENDOUS ACT, AND WE'VE SPENT THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS INVESTING

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IN TOOLS AND POLICIES TO QUICKLY REMOVE IT." YOUTUBE TOLD

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US IT NOW PRIORITIZES ALL REQUESTS FROM POZNER'S HONR NETWORK.

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WHY DO YOU THINK THE ONLINE PLATFORMS HAVE NOT BEEN

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EFFECTIVE IN ENFORCING THEIR OWN TERMS OF SERVICE? >> Pozner:

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I DON'T THINK THEY WERE PREPARED FOR THEIR ONLINE PLATFORMS

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TO BE USED THIS WAY. I THINK THEY WERE MORE

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FOCUSED ON GROWTH AND EXPANSION, AND LIKELY HAD MORE OF

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AN IDEALIZED NOTION OF THE INTERNET AND THE WAY IT

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WOULD BE USED FOR THE GREATER GOOD. >> Pelley: AN

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IDEALIZED NOTION OF HUMAN NATURE? >> Pozner: YEAH, WELL, YES.

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>> Pelley: POZNER ALSO HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL PULLING DOWN MUCH

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OF THAT COVID-19 LIE THAT SHADOWS MAATJE AND MATT BENASSI.

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HE GOT HOAX PEDDLER GEORGE WEBB KICKED OFF YOUTUBE. RECENTLY,

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SOME PLATFORMS TOOK FIRST STEPS TOWARD EDITING THEIR USERS. FACEBOOK

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AND TWITTER FLAGGED DUBIOUS CONTENT DURING THE ELECTION. NOW THEY'RE

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DOING THE SAME FOR MYTHS ABOUT COVID-19. BASED ON WHAT

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YOU'VE HAD TO LEARN ABOUT ALL OF THESE THINGS, WHAT

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DO YOU THINK THE SOLUTION COULD BE? >> Matt Benassi:

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THIS IS REALLY, REALLY HARD, RIGHT? BECAUSE SECTION 230. WHEN

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THAT WAS WRITTEN, IT WAS PROBABLY DONE WITH THE INTENT

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THAT SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES WOULD POLICE THEMSELVES IN SOME MANNER.

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AND SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES HAVEN'T DONE THAT VERY WELL. THEY

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NEED TO POLICE THEMSELVES QUICKER, OR THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO

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STEP IN AND FIGURE OUT SOME MECHANISM TO MAKE THEM

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LIABLE. BECAUSE MAKING THEM LIABLE WOULD MAKE THEM POLICE THEMSELVES.

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>> Pelley: BUT MAKING SOCIAL MEDIA LIABLE WOULD ALSO MEAN

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FACEBOOK, TWITTER, EVEN WIKIPEDIA AND YELP, COULDN'T EXIST AS WE

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KNOW THEM. PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN WANTS TO REVOKE SECTION 230. THE

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FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY SUING TO BREAK UP FACEBOOK AND

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GOOGLE. NO ONE CAN SAY WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA 2.0 WILL

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LOOK LIKE, OR WHETHER THE INNOCENT WILL EVER BE PROTECTED

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FROM A WORLD WIDE WEB OF LIES. (\TICKING\) >>\WHAT HAPPENS

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WHEN HARASSMENT \GOES OFFLINE AND INTO THE REAL \WORLD? >>

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TERRORIZING SOMEONE IS NOT FREE SPEECH. >>\AT 60minutesovertime.com >> Alfonsi:

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"60 MINUTES" HAS COVERED A LOT OF STORIES ABOUT FLAWS

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IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM OVER THE YEARS, BUT WE'D

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NEVER HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THE CASE AGAINST CURTIS FLOWERS. FLOWERS,

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A BLACK MAN FROM MISSISSIPPI, WAS TRIED SIX TIMES FOR

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THE SAME CRIME, BY THE SAME PROSECUTOR. HE MIGHT STILL

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BE ON DEATH ROW IF NOT FOR THE WORK OF

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A TEAM OF REPORTERS FROM AN INVESTIGATIVE PODCAST. TONIGHT, YOU

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WILL HEAR FROM CURTIS FLOWERS, THE REPORTERS WHO HELPED FREE

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HIM, AND THE PROSECUTOR WHO RELENTLESSLY PURSUED HIM FOR MORE

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THAN TWO DECADES. IT BEGAN IN WINONA, MISSISSIPPI, ON A

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JULY MORNING IN 1996. SHORTLY AFTER TARDY FURNITURE OPENED FOR

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THE DAY, THE STORE'S OWNER, BOOK-KEEPER, DELIVERY MAN AND A

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16-YEAR-OLD WERE SHOT IN THE HEAD, EXECUTION STYLE. NO ONE

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SAW IT HAPPEN. WHEN YOU HEARD ABOUT THE CRIME AND

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THE WAY THEY WERE MURDERED, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION? >>

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Curtis Flowers: WELL, MY HEART DROPPED. THE, THE FIRST THING,

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YOU KNOW, I-- I FELT SORRY FOR THEM. THEN I

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THOUGHT, WELL, I COULD'VE BEEN THERE. >> Alfonsi: CURTIS FLOWERS

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HAD WORKED AT TARDY THAT SUMMER FOR THREE DAYS, DELIVERING

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AND FIXING FURNITURE, BUT HE WAS LET GO AFTER HE

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STOPPED SHOWING UP. ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE MURDERS, SOME VICTIMS'

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FAMILIES SUSPECTED FLOWERS. THE POLICE QUESTIONED HIM, BUT MADE NO

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ARREST. MONTHS PASSED. FLOWERS MOVED TO TEXAS TO LIVE WITH

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HIS SISTER. AND THERE'S A KNOCK AT THE DOOR. >>

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Flowers: AND I ANSWERED IT. AND THE NEXT THING YOU

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KNOW I WAS ALL UP AGAINST THE WALL, BEING HANDCUFFED.

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AND HE EXPLAINED TO ME THAT, "WE JUST HAVE A

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WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST BACK IN MISSISSIPPI." I SAID, "FOR

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WHAT?" AND HE SAID, "FOUR COUNTS OF CAPITAL MURDER." MAN,

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I SAID, "ME? ARE YOU SURE YOU GOT THE RIGHT

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GUY?" >> Alfonsi: FLOWERS HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD, AND WAS

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MORE LIKELY TO BE ON STAGE WITH A GOSPEL GROUP

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THAN IN HANDCUFFS. THERE WAS NO MURDER WEAPON, NO D.N.A.

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OR FINGERPRINTS LINKING HIM TO THE CRIME. BUT IT TOOK

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AN ALL-WHITE JURY JUST AN HOUR TO DELIBERATE AND CONVICT

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HIM. AT AGE 27, CURTIS FLOWERS WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH,

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AND PUT IN THE MISSISSIPPI STATE PENITENTIARY KNOWN AS PARCHMAN

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PRISON. WERE YOU SCARED? >> Flowers: OH, YES. >> Alfonsi:

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WHAT'S PARCHMAN LIKE? >> Flowers: THE WORSTEST THING YOU EVER

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DREAMED ABOUT. YEAH, LIKE A NIGHTMARE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU

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HEAR ALL KINDS OF NOISE AT NIGHT, YOU KNOW. THERE

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ARE INMATES WHO HAVE JUST SNAPPED. SOME WHO HAVE LOST

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IT. THEY ACT UP ALL NIGHT. >> Alfonsi: AND YOU

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WERE SITTING ON DEATH ROW. I IMAGINE OTHER DEATH ROW

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INMATES WERE BEING EXECUTED. >> Flowers: YES. YES. AND THAT--

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THAT WAS NERVE- WRACKING ITSELF. >> Alfonsi: HIS CONVICTION WAS

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APPEALED AND OVERTURNED, BUT THERE WOULD BE FIVE MORE TRIALS

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FOR CURTIS FLOWERS, FOR THE SAME CRIME, BY THE SAME

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PROSECUTOR. HOW CAN A PERSON BE TRIED FOR THE SAME

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CRIME SIX TIMES? >> Rob McDuff: THIS CASE IS UNPRECEDENTED

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IN THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM. >> Alfonsi:

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ATTORNEY ROB McDUFF OF THE MISSISSIPPI CENTER FOR JUSTICE JOINED

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CURTIS FLOWERS' LEGAL TEAM IN 2019. IN THE FIRST THREE

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TRIALS, FLOWERS WAS FOUND GUILTY, BUT EACH CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED

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FOR PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT. AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT,

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WERE THESE SIMPLE MISSTEPS? OR WAS IT SOMETHING BIGGER GOING

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ON HERE? >> McDuff: NO, THESE CONVICTIONS WERE REVERSED BECAUSE

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OF THE PROSECUTOR'S MISREPRESENTATION OF THE EVIDENCE TO THE JURY,

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AND BECAUSE OF HIS DISCRIMINATION IN THE-- IN SELECTION OF

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THE JURY. >> Alfonsi: BUT THE SAME PROSECUTOR GOES AFTER

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CURTIS FLOWERS AGAIN, TIME AFTER TIME. THERE'S NOTHING IN OUR

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SYSTEM THAT STOPS THAT FROM HAPPENING? >> McDuff: UNFORTUNATELY, THERE

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IS NOT. THIS PROSECUTOR WAS LIKE CAPTAIN AHAB HUNTING THE

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WHALE. >> Alfonsi: THE PROSECUTOR WAS DISTRICT ATTORNEY DOUG EVANS,

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WHO, EVEN AFTER HUNG JURIES IN TRIALS FOUR AND FIVE,

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KEPT GOING. IN 2010, EVANS FINALLY GOT A CONVICTION TO

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STICK IN TRIAL SIX. FLOWERS RETURNED TO DEATH ROW. THEN

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AN EMAIL CHANGED HIS FORTUNES. >> Madeleine Baran: IT'S BEEN

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MORE THAN THREE YEARS SINCE I GOT AN EMAIL FROM

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A WOMAN TELLING ME ABOUT A MAN NAMED CURTIS FLOWERS.

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>> Alfonsi: MADELEINE BARAN IS THE LEAD REPORTER FOR AMERICAN

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PUBLIC MEDIA'S PODCAST "IN THE DARK." SAMARA FREEMARK IS THE

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PODCAST'S MANAGING PRODUCER. >> Baran: RIGHT AWAY, IT WAS LIKE,

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"IS THIS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE WOULD BE TRIED SIX TIMES?"

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>> Alfonsi: TO INVESTIGATE HOW THAT HAPPENED, THE "IN THE

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DARK" TEAM DESCENDED ON WINONA, A TOWN OF 5,000. MOST

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OF DOWNTOWN, LIKE TARDY FURNITURE, HAD FADED AWAY. THE PODCAST

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REPORTERS PLANNED TO STAY A FEW MONTHS. THEY STAYED A

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YEAR, KNOCKING ON DOORS AND INTERVIEWING HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. WAS

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THERE ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY SAID EARLY ON THAT MADE YOU

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THINK, "OH, WELL, MAYBE HE\WAS THE GUY WHO DID THIS?"

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>> Baran: YEAH. I MEAN, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO

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ASSUME THAT SOMEBODY HAS BEEN CONVICTED FOUR TIMES, THERE'S A

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CHANCE HE'S GUILTY, OF COURSE. BUT THE MORE WE LOOKED

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INTO THE EVIDENCE, THERE WASN'T A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE

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THAT ACTUALLY HELD UP. >> Alfonsi: THE FIRST PIECE OF

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EVIDENCE TO CRUMBLE WAS THE WINDING ROUTE DOUG EVANS TOLD

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JURORS THAT CURTIS FLOWERS WALKED THAT JULY MORNING. >> Baran:

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THAT, YOU KNOW, CURTIS WOKE UP THAT MORNING, HE WAS

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ANGRY, HE NO LONGER WORKED AT THE FURNITURE STORE. HE

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WANTED TO KILL THE PEOPLE THERE, BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE

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A GUN. SO HE WALKED ACROSS TOWN, STOLE A GUN

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FROM A CAR, WALKED HOME, STILL ANGRY. LEFT HIS HOUSE,

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WALKED WITH THE GUN TO THE FURNITURE STORE, SHOT FOUR

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PEOPLE IN THE HEAD, WALKED HOME. >> Alfonsi: IT SEEMED

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FAR- FETCHED FLOWERS WOULD BRAZENLY WALK SO FAR IN BROAD

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DAYLIGHT. WHEN THE PODCAST REPORTERS STARTED TALKING TO ROUTE WITNESSES

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WHO CLAIMED THEY SAW FLOWERS, A PATTERN EMERGED. >> Baran:

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IT WAS CLEAR THEY DID NOT, FOR EXAMPLE, PICK UP

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THE PHONE AND CALL THE POLICE AND SAY, "I SAW

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SOMETHING SUSPICIOUS." THAT THEY WERE SOUGHT OUT, LIKE, MONTHS LATER,

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IN A LOT OF CASES. AND IT TURNED OUT THAT

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THEY FELT LIKE THEY NEEDED TO TELL LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT

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THIS HAPPENED. OR, AS ONE GUY SAID, "THEY ALREADY TOLD

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ME THAT THEY KNEW I SAW CURTIS." >> Samara Freemark:

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THEY HAD THE WHOLE STORY LAID OUT FOR ME, AND

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ALL I HAD TO DO WAS SAY YES. >> Alfonsi:

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WHO WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT ROUTE WITNESS? >> Baran: CLEMMIE

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FLEMING. CLEMMIE TESTIFIED THAT CURTIS FLOWERS WAS RUNNING AWAY FROM

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THE FURNITURE STORE SHORTLY AFTER THE MURDERS. THIS IS, OF

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COURSE, INCREDIBLY DAMNING TESTIMONY, IF IT'S TRUE. AND SHE TESTIFIED

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TO IT SIX TIMES. >> Alfonsi: AND WHAT DID YOU

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LEARN? >> Baran: THAT CLEMMIE WAS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

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>> Alfonsi: CLEMMIE FLEMING ADMITTED TO THE PODCAST THAT SHE

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DIDN'T REMEMBER WHEN SHE SAW FLOWERS RUNNING. IN NOVEMBER, WE

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SPOKE TO HER IN WINONA, WHERE SHE STILL LIVES. YOU

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SAW CURTIS RUNNING THROUGH TOWN? >> Fleming: YEAH. >> Alfonsi:

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BUT YOU WEREN'T SURE. >> Fleming: I WASN'T SURE WHAT

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DAY IT WAS. I REALLY-- IT HAPPENED, BUT I DON'T

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KNOW WHAT DAY IT WAS. >> Alfonsi: DID YOU EVER

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TELL THE PROSECUTORS, "HEY, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE DAY

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THAT I SAW"? >> Fleming: YEAH. >> Alfonsi: AND WHAT

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DID THEY SAY? >> Fleming: THEY AIN'T WANT TO HEAR

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THAT. THEY JUST WANTED ME TO TELL WHAT I SEEN.

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THEY DON'T WANT TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT DAY I SEEN

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IT. >> Alfonsi: ANOTHER KEY WITNESS ALSO RECANTED TO "IN

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THE DARK." ODELL "COOKIE" HALLMON, A CAREER CRIMINAL, HAD TESTIFIED

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THAT CURTIS FLOWERS CONFESSED TO HIM IN PRISON. PRODUCER SAMARA

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FREEMARK TRACKED DOWN HALLMON IN PARCHMAN PRISON. AND HOW WERE

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YOU TALKING TO HIM? >> Freemark: WELL, IT TURNS OUT

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HE HAD AN ILLICIT CELL PHONE. HE WOULD SET UP

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A BLANKET FORT TO TALK SO THE GUARDS WOULDN'T-- WOULDN'T

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BE ABLE TO SEE HIM. SO HE WOULD SORT OF

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HANG BLANKETS UP OVER HIS BUNK, AND HIDE IN THERE.

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>> Alfonsi: EVENTUALLY, HE ADMITTED TO FREEMARK THAT HE MADE

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THE STORY UP ABOUT CURTIS CONFESSING. THIS IS HALLMON ON

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THE PHONE FROM PRISON. >> Hallmon: AS FAR AS HIM

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TELLING ME HE KILLED SOME PEOPLE, HELL, NAW, HE AIN'T

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NEVER TOLD ME THAT. THAT WAS A LIE. >> Alfonsi:

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THE PODCAST REPORTED THAT AFTER HALLMON CAME FORWARD WITH THE

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PHONY CONFESSION, HE CUT GENEROUS DEALS WITH PROSECUTORS FOR YEARS

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AND AVOIDED PUNISHMENT FOR MULTIPLE FELONY CHARGES. WHILE HE WAS

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FREE, IN 2016, HE MURDERED THREE PEOPLE AND WAS FINALLY

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SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON. >> Freemark: REMEMBER THIS IS

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THAT-- THAT REALLY BEAUTIFUL MUSIC. >> Alfonsi: THE REVELATIONS TURNED

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"IN THE DARK" INTO A SENSATION. THE PODCAST WAS DOWNLOADED

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42 MILLION TIMES. BUT CURTIS FLOWERS COULD NOT LISTEN TO

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IT. HE WAS ON DEATH ROW IN PARCHMAN PRISON, READING

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TRANSCRIPTS OF THE PODCAST. AND YOU'RE READING ABOUT THESE WITNESSES

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FINALLY RECANTING THEIR STORIES. >> Flowers: I THINK MY FIRST

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REACTION WAS, IT'S ABOUT TIME. (\LAUGHS\) AND I WAS JUST

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READY TO GO HOME. >> Alfonsi: AS FLOWERS WAITED ON

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DEATH ROW, THE PODCAST TEAM CONTINUED UNRAVELING HIS CASE BY

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SCOURING CLOSED JAILS AND ABANDONED FACTORIES FOR CLUES AND DOCUMENTS.

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>> Freemark: WE HAD TO GO AND SEARCH THEM OUT

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LIKE WE WERE ON A TREASURE HUNT. >> Baran: AND

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YOU'RE, LIKE, "WHAT ARE THOSE MOUNDS IN THE CORNER," YOU

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KNOW? AND YOU'RE LIKE, "OH, THOSE ARE PUBLIC RECORDS FOR

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THIS COUNTY." AND THEN YOU GO THROUGH IT AND YOU'RE

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LIKE, "THESE ARE COVERED IN MOUSE DROPPINGS. THEY'RE COVERED IN

374
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MOLD." >> Alfonsi: THEY ALSO ANALYZED DECADES OF COURT DATA

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THAT REVEALED PROSECUTOR DOUG EVANS HAD A HISTORY OF EXCLUDING

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BLACK PEOPLE FROM JURIES AT A DISPROPORTIONATE RATE. ACROSS ALL

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OF CURTIS FLOWERS' TRIALS, 61 OF THE 72 JURORS WERE

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WHITE. ALL 61 VOTED TO CONVICT. THOSE NUMBERS REVERBERATED FAR

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BEYOND MISSISSIPPI. IN 2019, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT RULED THAT

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EVANS AND THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI HAD VIOLATED CURTIS FLOWERS'

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CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, AND OVERTURNED HIS CONVICTION. JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH WROTE

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THAT THERE WAS A "RELENTLESS, DETERMINED EFFORT TO RID THE

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JURY OF BLACK INDIVIDUALS." SIX MONTHS LATER, CURTIS FLOWERS WAS

384
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:40,000
RELEASED ON BAIL. HE WALKED OUT OF JAIL WITH A

385
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,900
MONITOR ON HIS ANKLE, AND HIS SISTERS ON HIS ARMS.

386
00:24:43,150 --> 00:24:43,780
>> HOW ARE YOU FEELING RIGHT NOW? >> Flowers: I

387
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:48,120
FEEL GOOD. I'M HAPPY I'M OUT. >> Alfonsi: FOR THE

388
00:24:48,340 --> 00:24:51,160
FIRST TIME IN 23 YEARS, HE WAS OUT. >> Flowers:

389
00:24:51,850 --> 00:24:55,490
AND I'M TELLING YOU, I FELT LIKE I WAS FLOATING.

390
00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:59,200
I WAS JUST READY TO GO. >> Alfonsi: IN SEPTEMBER,

391
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,500
THE ANKLE MONITOR CAME OFF. THE MISSISSIPPI ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE

392
00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:08,900
DISMISSED ALL CHARGES AGAINST CURTIS FLOWERS. IT WROTE THAT, "IT

393
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,100
IS IN THE INTEREST OF JUSTICE THAT THE STATE WILL

394
00:25:11,290 --> 00:25:15,840
NOT SEEK AN UNPRECEDENTED SEVENTH TRIAL OF MR. FLOWERS." IN

395
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:19,270
NOVEMBER, DOUG EVANS, THE MAN WHO PROSECUTED CURTIS FLOWERS SIX

396
00:25:19,660 --> 00:25:22,610
TIMES, SAT DOWN WITH US IN HIS OFFICE FOR A

397
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,490
RARE INTERVIEW. WHY DID YOU PROSECUTE HIM AGAIN AND AGAIN?

398
00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:31,370
>> Doug Evans: BECAUSE I KNEW HE WAS GUILTY. AND

399
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:34,930
THE FAMILIES KNEW HE WAS GUILTY. AND THE FAMILIES DESERVE

400
00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:39,920
JUSTICE. >> Alfonsi: BUT WHAT ABOUT NOW THAT THOSE WITNESSES

401
00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:43,750
HAVE CHANGED THEIR STORIES? >> Evans: I DON'T THINK-- KNOW,

402
00:25:43,870 --> 00:25:45,430
THAT ANY OF THEM HAVE CHANGED THEIR STORIES. >> Alfonsi:

403
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,570
WELL, CLEMMIE, ODELL. >> Evans: BUT THAT'S NOT IN COURT,

404
00:25:48,730 --> 00:25:51,260
UNDER OATH. >> Alfonsi: DO YOU THINK THAT CURTIS COULD

405
00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:55,880
GET A FAIR TRIAL WHEN THE JURY IS PREDOMINATELY WHITE?

406
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,520
>> Evans: YES. RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR

407
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,880
PART OF WHAT WE DO. A LOT OF TIMES, RACE

408
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,940
GETS THROWN IN AS AN EXCUSE, IF THERE IS NO

409
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,460
DEFENSE. >> Alfonsi: JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH WROTE THERE SEEMED TO

410
00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:13,270
BE A "RELENTLESS, DETERMINED EFFORT TO RID THE JURY OF

411
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:16,300
BLACK INDIVIDUALS." THAT'S FROM THE SUPREME COURT. >> Evans: AND

412
00:26:16,430 --> 00:26:19,600
I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT. BASICALLY, WHAT HE IS DOING IS

413
00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:23,550
ACCUSING ME, LIKE HE WAS ACCUSED, BEFORE HE WAS PUT

414
00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:26,750
ON THE SUPREME COURT. >> Alfonsi: EVANS SAYS HE NEVER

415
00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:30,400
LISTENED TO THE PODCAST, BUT IS CONVINCED "IN THE DARK"

416
00:26:30,430 --> 00:26:33,890
SET OUT TO DISCREDIT HIS CASE. THE WAY THIS IS

417
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:35,770
BEING PRESENTED NOW WAS THAT IT WAS A WEAK CASE,

418
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,340
THAT THERE WERE NO FINGERPRINTS, THERE WAS NO D.N.A., THERE

419
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,480
WAS NO WITNESS THAT PUTS HIM AT THE CRIME SCENE.

420
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,300
THERE'S THESE STRING OF WITNESSES THAT SAY THEY SAW HIM

421
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:45,590
ON THE STREET. >> Evans: OH, YOU'VE GOT A WITNESS

422
00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:47,880
THAT SEES HIM WALK IN THE FRONT DOOR. THAT'S ABOUT

423
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:51,760
AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET. >> Alfonsi: BUT OVER

424
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,890
SIX TRIALS, NO WITNESS EVER TESTIFIED TO SEEING CURTIS FLOWERS

425
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,580
WALK IN THE FRONT DOOR AT TARDY FURNITURE. EVANS THEN

426
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:03,950
MADE ANOTHER STARTLING CLAIM. YOU WOULD THINK THAT BECAUSE THE

427
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:07,400
MURDERS WERE SO GRUESOME, YOU KNOW, NOBODY SAW HIM COVERED

428
00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:08,930
IN BLOOD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? >> Evans: WELL, THERE

429
00:27:09,140 --> 00:27:12,260
WERE PEOPLE THAT SAW HIM BURNING CLOTHES AFTER THAT, BUT

430
00:27:12,530 --> 00:27:18,260
WE WEREN'T ABLE TO INTRODUCE THAT EITHER. SUPPOSEDLY, THEY SAW

431
00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:21,500
HIM BURNING CLOTHES AND A PAIR OF TENNIS SHOES. >>

432
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,550
Alfonsi: WHERE DID THAT HAPPEN? >> Evans: IT WAS OUTSIDE

433
00:27:24,270 --> 00:27:27,110
HIS HOUSE, IN THAT AREA OVER THERE. >> Alfonsi: BUT

434
00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:31,400
IN 12,000 PAGES OF PRE-TRIAL HEARINGS AND TRIAL PROCEEDINGS THAT

435
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,210
WE REVIEWED, WE COULDN'T FIND ANY MENTION OF THAT STORY.

436
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,270
ROB McDUFF, CURTIS FLOWERS' LAWYER, SAID THAT'S BECAUSE IT NEVER

437
00:27:39,630 --> 00:27:43,900
HAPPENED. >> McDuff: (\LAUGHS\) YOU KNOW, IT IS JUST PREPOSTEROUS

438
00:27:44,550 --> 00:27:48,330
THAT DOUG EVANS CONTINUES TO SAY THESE THINGS. BUT HE'S

439
00:27:48,510 --> 00:27:52,130
BEEN CALLED OUT ON HIS DECEPTIONS, HE'S BEEN CALLED OUT

440
00:27:52,370 --> 00:27:55,400
ON HIS MISCONDUCT TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN. >>

441
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:01,450
Flowers: I BELIEVE EVERY CASE DOUG EVANS EVER HANDLED SHOULD

442
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,120
BE LOOKED INTO. I TRULY DO. I-- I-- LORD KNOWS

443
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:10,250
I WOULD HATE TO SEE THIS HAPPEN TO SOMEONE ELSE.

444
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,220
>> Alfonsi: CURTIS FLOWERS IS NOW 50 YEARS OLD. HE

445
00:28:15,390 --> 00:28:18,950
SPENT NEARLY HALF HIS LIFE IN PRISON. IN NOVEMBER, DURING

446
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:21,720
A VISIT TO SEE HIS FAMILY IN WINONA, HE TOLD

447
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:24,390
US THE ADJUSTMENT HAS BEEN SLOW. >> Flowers: I'M SO

448
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,790
USED TO BEING IN SHACKLES, MAKING LITTLE BABY STEPS. >>

449
00:28:26,790 --> 00:28:28,810
Alfonsi: REALLY? >> Flowers: SO THEN, WHEN, YOU KNOW, I'M

450
00:28:28,980 --> 00:28:30,540
TURNED LOOSE AND ABLE TO STEP LIKE I WANT TO,

451
00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:33,150
YEAH, IT TAKES A LOT OF WIND. >> Alfonsi: YOU

452
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:34,740
COULDN'T WALK NORMALLY? >> Flowers: YEAH, I HAD TO ADJUST

453
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,200
TO IT. >> Alfonsi: BECAUSE YOU WERE ALWAYS IN SHACKLES?

454
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:43,300
>> Flowers: YES. OH, OH LORD >> Alfonsi: BUT SOMEHOW,

455
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,670
AFTER 23 YEARS, THE FORMER GOSPEL SINGER NEVER LOST HIS

456
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,700
VOICE. LET ME COME HOME LET ME COME HOME (\TICKING\)

457
00:28:55,570 --> 00:29:14,100
(\TICKING\) >> Wertheim: WHEN THE GERMAN PIANIST, IGOR LEVIT, WAS

458
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,200
SELECTED AS THE FEATURED SOLOIST OF THE NOBEL PRIZE CEREMONY

459
00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:20,560
LAST MONTH, IT MARKED YET ANOTHER GRACE NOTE IN A

460
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,720
CAREER THAT'S QUICKLY GROWN FILLED WITH AWARDS AND HONORS. IN

461
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:27,490
LINE FOR A GRAMMY LATER THIS MONTH, LEVIT IS 33,

462
00:29:28,390 --> 00:29:30,850
AND ALREADY AMONG THE BRIGHTEST STARS IN THE CLASSICAL MUSIC

463
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,240
COSMOS. BUT LATELY, AS THE PANDEMIC MUTES AND MUFFLES SO

464
00:29:35,470 --> 00:29:39,270
MUCH MUSIC, LEVIT'S PERFORMANCES HAVE BEEN MOSTLY STREAMING OVER TWITTER

465
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:43,750
FROM HIS BERLIN LIVING ROOM. AS IGOR LEVIT PLAYS IN

466
00:29:43,870 --> 00:29:47,580
A NEW WAY TO A NEW AUDIENCE, HE'S REACHED MUSIC

467
00:29:48,150 --> 00:30:07,350
IS NOT AN EXTRAVAGANCE, BUT A LIFE NECESSITY. IGOR LEVIT

468
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:16,200
IS, TO MIX MUSICAL GENRES, A ROCK STAR. HERE HE

469
00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:19,960
IS INSIDE LONDON'S ROYAL ALBERT HALL FOR THE OPENING AT

470
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:23,440
THE PROMS IN 2017, ONE OF THE OLDEST AND MOST

471
00:30:23,750 --> 00:30:33,410
ANTICIPATED FESTIVALS ON THE CONCERT CALENDAR. A TYPICALLY GLOWING REVIEW

472
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:43,900
DESCRIBED THE PERFORMANCE AS" FIERY," "MAGICAL," AND" ELEGANT." TAKE A

473
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:47,180
LOOK AT HOW LEVIT CURLS OVER HIS INSTRUMENT. AT ODDS

474
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,610
WITH EVERY PIANO TEACHER'S DEMAND FOR PERFECT POSTURE, IT'S ALMOST

475
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:54,940
AS IF LEVIT IS PHYSICALLY BECOMING PART OF THE MUSIC

476
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:01,110
HE IS CONJURING. WE SOMETIMES THINK OF MUSICIANS AS-- THEY

477
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,700
DON'T MIND THE ISOLATION. THEY CAN BE DISENGAGED. I GET

478
00:31:03,850 --> 00:31:05,240
THE FEELING YOU NEED THAT CONNECTION WITH AN AUDIENCE. >>

479
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,140
Igor Levit: I COULDN'T LIVE WITHOUT THAT. SINCE MY VERY

480
00:31:08,530 --> 00:31:11,100
CHILDHOOD, WHAT I CARE ABOUT ARE PEOPLE-- >> Wertheim: ALWAYS.

481
00:31:11,410 --> 00:31:21,130
>> Levit: ALWAYS. >> Wertheim: EVEN IN THIS VAST AND

482
00:31:21,790 --> 00:31:25,280
VENERABLE CONCERT HALL, THIS GERMAN MUSICIAN HAS A WAY OF

483
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:33,440
CREATING AN INTIMACY WITH HIS AUDIENCE. THEN, IN MARCH, THE

484
00:31:33,550 --> 00:31:37,350
PANDEMIC HIT. HIS TOUR DATES CANCELLED, THAT INTIMACY EVAPORATED. (\APPLAUSE\)

485
00:31:37,530 --> 00:31:43,880
IN MANY WAYS, THE LOCKDOWN TURNED YOUR WORLD ON ITS

486
00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:46,820
HEAD. >> Levit: IT'S A DISASTER-- >> Wertheim: TECHNICIANS AND

487
00:31:46,910 --> 00:31:49,410
THE LIGHTING-- >> Levit: A DISASTER. AGENTS, MANAGERS. >> Wertheim:

488
00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:52,740
WHAT HAPPENS? >> Levit: THEY LOSE EVERYTHING, FROM ONE DAY

489
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:55,860
TO THE OTHER. THE LOSS IS-- BY 100%. IT'S A

490
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,100
TOTAL DISASTER. >> Wertheim: IT COULD HAVE BEEN A DISASTER

491
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,820
FOR LEVIT, A HIPSTER, SUDDENLY GROUNDED AT HOME IN AN

492
00:32:03,910 --> 00:32:06,110
EDGY POCKET OF BERLIN. >> Levit: I CAN'T JUST MAKE

493
00:32:06,270 --> 00:32:08,450
MUSIC FOR MYSELF. IT'S JUST NOT-- NOT THE-- NOT THE

494
00:32:08,550 --> 00:32:12,570
WAY I OPERATE. I CAN'T, EMOTIONALLY. SO, I HAD THIS

495
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,470
IDEA TO BRING ONE OF THE MOST CLASSIC WAYS OF

496
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,420
MUSIC MAKING, WHICH IS THE HOUSE CONCERT, TO BRING IT--

497
00:32:18,530 --> 00:32:21,420
TO TRY TO BRING IT INTO THE 21st CENTURY. SO,

498
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,540
HOW DO I DO IT? SO I INVITE THE PEOPLE

499
00:32:23,910 --> 00:32:27,830
INTO MY LIVING ROOM IN THE ONLY WAY POSSIBLE, WHICH

500
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,300
IS THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA. >> Wertheim: FIRST, HE TWEETED OUT

501
00:32:31,550 --> 00:32:33,920
AN INVITATION TO HIS FOLLOWERS. >> Levit: LIKE THAT'S IT.

502
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:36,000
>> Wertheim: NEXT, HE RUSHED OUT TO BUY A CHEAP

503
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:41,330
CAMERA STAND, HASTILY RIGGED HIS iPHONE, SELF-ADMINISTERED A TUTORIAL IN

504
00:32:41,770 --> 00:32:51,540
LIVE-STREAMING, AND THEN, IT WAS SHOWTIME. (\"MOONLIGHT SONATA"\) THE FIRST

505
00:32:51,820 --> 00:32:57,310
HOUSE CONCERT DREW A VIRTUAL CROWD OF 350,000. SOUNDS KIND

506
00:32:57,490 --> 00:33:01,800
OF LIBERATING. >> Levit: IT'S COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED ME, WHO I

507
00:33:01,190 --> 00:33:02,860
AM, HOW I SEE THE WORLD. >> Wertheim: THAT WOULD

508
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,560
SEEM TO DRAMATICALLY CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN A PERFORMER AND

509
00:33:08,670 --> 00:33:10,890
THE AUDIENCE. >> Levit: IT-- YEAH, IT WAS JUST ME,

510
00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:15,700
NO HALL, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT ACOUSTICS, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT AN

511
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,210
INSTRUMENT, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PRE-PRINTED PROGRAMS, NOTHING. NO

512
00:33:20,620 --> 00:33:25,900
BOUNDARIES, JUST-- JUST MYSELF AND THE PEOPLE. (\"RHAPSODY IN BLUE"\)

513
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,300
>> Wertheim: HE HAD HIS CLASSICAL REPERTOIRE, BUT ADDED SOUL

514
00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:38,570
AND JAZZ AND ROCK. FOR 52 CONSECUTIVE NIGHTS OF LIVE

515
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:42,780
CONCERTS, HIS FOLLOWERS JOINED FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, UNBOTHERED

516
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,750
BY THE TINNY SOUND OF HIS PIANO WHEN IT LAPSED

517
00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:50,800
OUT OF TUNE. THEY KEPT COMING; HE KEPT PLAYING. >>

518
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,120
Levit: BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC. AND SO, WHAT USUALLY MUST

519
00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:58,180
BE RIGHT WAS WRONG, AND IT DIDN'T MATTER. BECAUSE JUST--

520
00:33:58,770 --> 00:34:00,810
JUST THE FACT THAT THERE WAS MUSIC, NO MATTER HOW

521
00:34:00,980 --> 00:34:03,270
IT SOUNDED, JUST THE FACT THAT THERE WAS SOME KIND

522
00:34:03,460 --> 00:34:08,900
OF TOGETHERNESS. JUST-- JUST THIS WAS ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE TO

523
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,940
FEEL BETTER. IT WAS ENOUGH FOR ME TO FEEL BETTER.

524
00:34:13,700 --> 00:34:16,870
>> Wertheim: SO MUCH BETTER, HE NEXT STREAMED WHAT WAS

525
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:20,800
LESS A CHALLENGE TO HIS MUSICAL TALENTS THAN TO HIS

526
00:34:20,250 --> 00:34:24,590
MUSICAL STAMINA. THE "VEXATIONS" IS NOT EXACTLY A RELIABLE CROWD-PLEASER.

527
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:28,740
>> Levit: THE "VEXATIONS," WHICH IS A VERY ODD, VERY

528
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,160
WEIRD-- KIND OF NON-MUSIC PIECE. IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE.

529
00:34:33,310 --> 00:34:36,460
STARTS WITH ONE HAND ALONE, AND YOU PLAY A WEIRD

530
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,550
VARIATION. THEN YOU PLAY IT-- SAME THING AGAIN. ONE HAND

531
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:45,720
ALONE, THEN YOU PLAY ANOTHER VARIATION. (\"VEXATIONS"\) >> Wertheim: FRENCH

532
00:34:46,110 --> 00:34:50,230
SURREALIST COMPOSER ERIK SATIE INTENDED THIS PIECE TO BE PLAYED

533
00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:55,790
THROUGH 840 TIMES. THE REPETITION CAN BE ALMOST HYPNOTIC, KNOWN

534
00:34:56,700 --> 00:34:59,640
TO CAUSE PERFORMERS TO HALLUCINATE. ONE COMPLAINED OF SEEING BUGS

535
00:35:00,220 --> 00:35:03,730
CRAWLING BETWEEN THE KEYS. LEVIT PLAYED THIS PIECE FOR 16

536
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:07,680
HOURS STRAIGHT. IGOR, THAT SOUNDS LIKE TORTURE, NOT MUSIC. >>

537
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,620
Levit: WELL-- "VEXATIONS," RIGHT? (\LAUGHS\) I REST MY CASE. AND

538
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,140
SO, I THOUGHT, "WOW, THAT'S THE PERFECT MATCH FOR THIS

539
00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:23,100
TIME." (\"VEXATIONS"\) AND I COULD FOCUS WITH THIS PERFORMANCE ON

540
00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:27,100
THE EMOTIONAL AND MENTAL STATE OF MIND OF MY WORLD,

541
00:35:27,310 --> 00:35:32,860
OF THE PERFORMANCE WORLD WHICH IS HOPELESSNESS, CONFUSION, AND GIVE,

542
00:35:33,250 --> 00:35:35,620
LIKE, A SILENT SCREAM, LIKE THE END OF THE THIRD

543
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:37,450
PART OF "THE GODFATHER." >> Wertheim: YOU SURVIVED? >> Levit:

544
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:39,620
I NOT ONLY SURVIVE, I WAS HIGH AS A MONKEY

545
00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:44,280
AFTERWARDS. I MEAN, I WAS-- I WAS JUST FLYING. >>

546
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:49,280
Wertheim: LEVIT TOOK FLIGHT EARLY, PLAYING BEETHOVEN'S "SONATA NUMBER 2,"

547
00:35:49,860 --> 00:35:55,630
WINNING A PRESTIGIOUS RUBINSTEIN PRIZE AS A TEENAGER. HE WAS

548
00:35:55,860 --> 00:35:59,800
BORN IN NIZHNY NOVGOROD, RUSSIA. THAT'S WHERE HE PLAYED HIS

549
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:02,240
FIRST CONCERT WITH A FULL ORCHESTRA. WHEN HE WAS EIGHT,

550
00:36:02,570 --> 00:36:05,000
HE AND HIS FAMILY MOVED TO GERMANY AS JEWISH REFUGEES.

551
00:36:06,380 --> 00:36:08,970
HIS MOTHER WAS A PIANO TEACHER, BUT PAIRED HER TALENTED

552
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,170
SON WITH A TASKMASTER WHO DEMANDED LEVIT PRACTICE THAT SAME

553
00:36:13,690 --> 00:36:19,490
BEETHOVEN'S "SONATA NUMBER 2" FOR YEARS ON END. LEVIT SAYS

554
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:23,290
HE WAS AN ANGRY AND UNHAPPY ADOLESCENT WHO FLIRTED WITH

555
00:36:23,450 --> 00:36:27,600
QUITTING PIANO. >> Levit: I WAS A 15-YEAR-OLD BOY. LIKE,

556
00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:29,320
I-- YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO DO ALL KINDS OF

557
00:36:29,450 --> 00:36:32,190
THINGS, BUT NOT PLAY THE SAME PIECE OVER AND OVER

558
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:34,110
AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. (\ EMINEM'S "THE

559
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:38,440
WAY I AM" \) >> Wertheim: SO, HOW DOES A

560
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:43,560
BURNED-OUT PIANO PRODIGY GET HIS MOJO BACK? CHANNELING EMINEM, AND

561
00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:46,870
HIS SINGLE "THE WAY I AM." >> Levit: I AM

562
00:36:47,110 --> 00:36:48,820
WHO I AM. AND I AM. AND THE WAY I

563
00:36:48,990 --> 00:36:50,990
AM, JUST-- DEAL WITH IT. AND SORT IT OUT FOR

564
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,980
YOURSELF. SO, I WOULD LISTEN TO THE SONG, LIKE, NONSTOP.

565
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,670
WALKMAN. (\CLAP\) (\LAUGHS\) IN MY HAND. IT WAS, LIKE, IN

566
00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:59,100
A LOOP, THE RHYTHMICAL-- (\CLAP\) PERSISTENCE, THE-- THE-- THE LYRICAL

567
00:36:59,580 --> 00:37:02,400
PERSISTENCE. IT'S SO-- IT'S SO BEETHOVIAN, YOU KNOW, IN A

568
00:37:02,490 --> 00:37:04,790
WAY. >> Wertheim: SLIM SHADY'S HELPING YOU UNDERSTAND BEETHOVEN? >>

569
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:08,490
Levit: SLIM SHADY-- UNDERSTANDING MYSELF, YEAH. >> Wertheim: BEETHOVEN OBVIOUSLY

570
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:11,750
MEANS A GREAT DEAL TO YOU. YOU SAID HE'S-- HE'S

571
00:37:11,930 --> 00:37:14,800
AROUND YOU. HE'S IN PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING YOU DO. >> Levit:

572
00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:16,880
IN-- IN A WEIRD WAY, BEETHOVEN'S MUSIC IS MY SAFE

573
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,910
ZONE. IT'S MUSIC WHICH GIVES ME, WHICH GIVES THE AUDIENCE,

574
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:25,480
THE FEELING OF PARTICIPATION. AT SOME POINT, YOU-- YOU GET

575
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,520
THIS FEELING LIKE, "OH, THIS IS ABOUT ME. THIS IS

576
00:37:29,620 --> 00:37:55,430
ABOUT ME." LIKE, YOU KNOW. RIGHT. >> Wertheim: THAT'S HOW

577
00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:59,220
YOU FEEL? >> Levit: THIS FEELING OF "S. O.S., HELP,

578
00:37:59,510 --> 00:38:02,110
WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?" (\LAUGHS\) BOTH FOR ME AS A

579
00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:04,910
PLAYER AND FOR THE LISTENER. SO, I'M NOT TRYING TO

580
00:38:05,170 --> 00:38:09,230
EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO YOU. I WANT TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO

581
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,270
UNDERSTAND. (\SNAP\) HEY, WHATEVER YOU FEEL, IT'S-- IT'S YOU. IT'S

582
00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:17,200
YOUR MUSIC. IT'S YOUR PIECE. AND SO-- BEETHOVEN-- BEETHOVEN'S MUSIC

583
00:38:17,310 --> 00:38:21,940
KIND OF CREATES THIS LINK BETWEEN THE PLAYER, THE MUSIC,

584
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,870
THE AUDIENCE. THIS TRIANGLE IS ENORMOUSLY INTENSE. >> Wertheim: AND

585
00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:29,740
YET, YOU COULD'VE PLAYED A DIFFERENT PIECE WITH THAT SAME

586
00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:31,980
TRIANGLE AND A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RANGE OF EMOTIONS. >> Levit:

587
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,300
COMPLETELY. I COULD, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING, YOU KNOW? >> Wertheim:

588
00:38:34,450 --> 00:38:37,110
WHAT ABOUT SADNESS? >> Levit: WELL, THAT'S A WIDE TOPIC.

589
00:38:37,330 --> 00:38:42,100
I MEAN, WHAT KIND OF SADNESS? >> Wertheim: SAY, MOURNFUL

590
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,610
SADNESS? >> Wertheim: IN A PART OF THE WORLD THAT

591
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,870
KNOWS A BIT ABOUT MUSICAL GENIUS, LEVIT MAY BE CONSUMED

592
00:38:58,510 --> 00:39:01,980
BY A COMPOSER BORN 250 YEARS AGO, BUT HE IS

593
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:05,560
ALSO THE QUINTESSENTIAL CREATURE OF THE PRESENT. LEVIT DOESN'T DRIVE,

594
00:39:06,170 --> 00:39:09,830
BUT IN BETWEEN LOCKDOWNS IN OCTOBER, WE TOOLED AROUND WITH

595
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,240
HIM ON ONE OF HIS MANY BIKES. WHEN DID YOU

596
00:39:12,380 --> 00:39:16,610
FEEL LIKE A GERMAN HERE? YOU CAME WHEN YOU WERE

597
00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:20,390
EIGHT YEARS OLD. IMMEDIATELY? >> Levit: WHEN I FELT LIKE

598
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:21,810
A GERMAN? >> Wertheim: I DON'T KNOW, WHEN DID YOU

599
00:39:22,180 --> 00:39:24,790
FEEL-- >> Levit: OH, WOW, THAT'S-- >> Wertheim: (\SPEAKING GERMAN\)

600
00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:29,200
>> Levit: THAT, MR. WERTHEIM, IS A VERY GERMAN QUESTION.

601
00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:34,810
>> Wertheim: LEVIT TAKES HIS CITIZENSHIP SERIOUSLY. AT A PROTEST

602
00:39:35,550 --> 00:39:39,100
AGAINST THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS FOREST LAST MONTH, LEVIT BUNDLED

603
00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:42,580
UP AND PLAYED IN SOLIDARITY. THE ENVIRONMENT IS ONE OF

604
00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:46,900
HIS MANY CAUSES. HE'S ADAMANT, AS HE PUTS IT, NOT

605
00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:53,360
TO BE THE GUY WHO JUST PUSHES PIANO KEYS. WHEN

606
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,650
A NEO-NAZI CARRIED OUT A DEADLY ATTACK OUTSIDE A SYNAGOGUE

607
00:39:57,350 --> 00:40:01,260
IN THE GERMAN CITY OF HALLE IN 2019, LEVIT USED

608
00:40:01,630 --> 00:40:09,180
HIS APPEARANCE AT GERMANY'S MOST PRESTIGIOUS MUSIC AWARD CEREMONY TO

609
00:40:09,260 --> 00:40:16,460
SPEAK OUT AGAINST RIGHT-WING EXTREMISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM. LEVIT HAS BEEN

610
00:40:16,630 --> 00:40:19,130
TOLD TO HIS FACE THAT HE HAS NO RIGHT TO

611
00:40:19,230 --> 00:40:22,900
BE IN GERMANY. MORE ALARMINGLY, BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, HE RECEIVED

612
00:40:23,550 --> 00:40:26,950
ONLINE DEATH THREATS, FORCING HIM TO TAKE THE STAGE UNDER

613
00:40:27,290 --> 00:40:31,980
ARMED POLICE GUARD. HIS ACTIVIST POLITICS HAVE PROVOKED ATTACKS ON

614
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:34,100
MULTIPLE FRONTS. AS A JEW, YOU WERE AN OUTSIDER. >>

615
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:38,000
Levit: CORRECT. "I WILL FIND YOU ON THAT DAY IN

616
00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:40,920
WIESBADEN AND WILL KILL YOU WHILE YOU'RE ON STAGE." BOTH

617
00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:43,680
OF THEM TAKE A RUBBER AND TRY TO ERASE YOU

618
00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:46,650
FROM-- FROM MOTHER EARTH, BOTH OF THEM. ONE OF THEM

619
00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:56,930
INTELLECTUALLY, THE OTHER ONE PHYSICALLY. >> Wertheim: THE SEDATE COCOON

620
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:00,830
OF CLASSICAL MUSIC ISN'T ACCUSTOMED TO DEATH THREATS AND TALKS

621
00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:05,330
OF ERASURE. BUT THEN AGAIN, IGOR LEVIT CUTS A SINGULAR

622
00:41:05,810 --> 00:41:09,470
FIGURE. AND IN THE DAYS OF SOARING COVID RATES AND

623
00:41:09,630 --> 00:41:16,500
DEPLETING CONCERT DATES, HE PLAYS ON. IN MUNICH, WE CAUGHT

624
00:41:16,330 --> 00:41:18,710
UP WITH HIM FOR A RARE PERFORMANCE THAT WASN'T CANCELLED.

625
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:22,650
THERE WAS NO HUM OF ANTICIPATION IN THE LOBBY, NO

626
00:41:22,980 --> 00:41:26,570
BUSTLING COAT CHECK, AND THE AUDIENCE-- IT WAS RESTRICTED TO

627
00:41:26,690 --> 00:41:34,350
JUST 50 PEOPLE. MOZART WAS ON THE MENU. A CANOPY

628
00:41:34,770 --> 00:41:42,730
OF NOTES, SHARPLY RENDERED, FILLED THE AIR. A MEASURE OF

629
00:41:42,840 --> 00:42:10,650
COMFORT IN THESE UNCERTAIN TIMES. >> Alfonsi: NEXT SUNDAY ON

630
00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:15,300
"60 MINUTES," LESLEY STAHL WITH HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI. A

631
00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:18,340
NEW PRESIDENT, THE DEMOCRATS' SLIM HOUSE MAJORITY, AND A RESTIVE

632
00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:22,000
YOUNG HOUSE PROGRESSIVE BLOC HAVE THE SPEAKER UNDER MORE PRESSURE

633
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:26,300
THAN SHE'S FACED IN YEARS. I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. WE'LL BE

634
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:29,150
BACK NEXT WEEK WITH THAT AND MORE ON ANOTHER EDITION

635
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,480
OF "60 MINUTES." (\TICKING\)