1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,943 [CLOCK TICKING] 2 00:00:05,791 --> 00:00:07,240 [BELL TOLLING] 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,280 ANDERSON COOPER: The vets drank psilocybin, 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,480 a psychoactive compound found in some mushrooms, 5 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,480 put on blindfolds to shut out distractions, and lay down. 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,440 The retreat was organized and paid 7 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,720 for by the Heroic Hearts Project, a nonprofit that's 8 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,560 helped more than a thousand US veterans 9 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,840 with combat-related PTSD access psychedelics. 10 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,880 Them seeking this type of unauthorized therapy 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,439 is just another indication of why 12 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:34,440 we need to study this further and get it 13 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,320 to a safe and effective medical environment. 14 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:38,685 [CLOCK TICKING] 15 00:00:38,685 --> 00:00:40,960 [SHOUTING] 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,940 BILL WHITAKERL Every year on Mardi Gras day, 17 00:00:42,940 --> 00:00:46,040 an eDemondtraordinary sight emerges from the back streets 18 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,200 of New Orleans. 19 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,000 They call themselves Mardi Gras Indians, or Black Masking 20 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Indians, and they roam the neighborhoods 21 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,560 in dazzling hand-sewn suits. 22 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,620 Tonight, we will show you the sights and sounds 23 00:01:01,620 --> 00:01:06,356 of one of America's last true secret societies. 24 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:08,340 [CLOCK TICKING] 25 00:01:10,780 --> 00:01:12,780 JON WERTHEIM: Here she is, taking a flamethrower 26 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:14,340 to her own book. 27 00:01:14,340 --> 00:01:18,900 Margaret Atwood was firing back at would-be book burners. 28 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:20,860 Her books have been banned for content 29 00:01:20,860 --> 00:01:25,060 deemed overly seDemondual, morally corrupt, anti-Christian. 30 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:28,440 The government put out an edict to all school boards, 31 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,940 saying that they couldn't have any books in the library that 32 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:34,340 had either direct or indirect sex. 33 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:37,100 What is indirect sex? 34 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:38,860 [CLOCK TICKING] 35 00:01:39,740 --> 00:01:41,080 I'm Bill Whitaker. 36 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:42,320 I'm Jon Wertheim. 37 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:43,620 I'm Anderson Cooper. 38 00:01:43,620 --> 00:01:45,220 I'm Lesley Stahl. 39 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:48,000 Those stories tonight on 60 Minutes. 40 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,940 [CLOCK TICKING] 41 00:01:56,660 --> 00:01:59,450 In 2024, the Veterans Administration announced, 42 00:01:59,450 --> 00:02:02,490 for the first time, it would begin funding its own clinical 43 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:05,610 trials to treat post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, 44 00:02:05,610 --> 00:02:08,830 and addiction using two psychedelic drugs-- 45 00:02:08,830 --> 00:02:11,250 psilocybin and MDMA. 46 00:02:11,250 --> 00:02:13,110 Even if the trials are successful, 47 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:15,650 it would be years before the VA could prescribe 48 00:02:15,650 --> 00:02:17,650 either drug for its patients. 49 00:02:17,650 --> 00:02:19,510 But as we first reported last year, 50 00:02:19,510 --> 00:02:22,690 thousands of veterans who are suffering are not waiting. 51 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:25,650 Desperate for help, they're attending psychedelic retreats 52 00:02:25,650 --> 00:02:29,450 in countries where the drugs are legal to use, mostly 53 00:02:29,450 --> 00:02:31,610 in Indigenous ceremonies. 54 00:02:31,610 --> 00:02:33,730 We were invited to join nine veterans who 55 00:02:33,730 --> 00:02:37,410 traveled to the west coast of Mexico for a psychedelic journey 56 00:02:37,410 --> 00:02:42,530 they hoped would finally help ease their pain. 57 00:02:42,530 --> 00:02:45,850 They came to Mexico from all over the United States-- 58 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:48,690 a group of nine veterans with invisible wounds 59 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:50,370 that are hard to heal. 60 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:52,450 Their destination, a remote village 61 00:02:52,450 --> 00:02:56,790 near Puerto Vallarta for a week-long psychedelic retreat. 62 00:02:56,790 --> 00:02:58,930 It was a voyage into the unknown, 63 00:02:58,930 --> 00:03:04,150 but a risk worth taking for TJ Duff, a former Navy sailor. 64 00:03:04,150 --> 00:03:05,350 Are you optimistic? 65 00:03:05,350 --> 00:03:08,030 Being optimistic is hard for me, 66 00:03:08,030 --> 00:03:10,450 because I've been through a lot of therapy, 67 00:03:10,450 --> 00:03:14,310 a lot of different treatments, and not a lot of success. 68 00:03:14,310 --> 00:03:16,690 ANDERSON COOPER: Duff was 18 when he joined the Navy. 69 00:03:16,690 --> 00:03:20,110 Months into his first deployment aboard the USS Cole, 70 00:03:20,110 --> 00:03:22,310 he says he narrowly escaped death 71 00:03:22,310 --> 00:03:25,530 when two suicide bombers attacked the ship in Yemen, 72 00:03:25,530 --> 00:03:27,470 killing 17 sailors. 73 00:03:27,470 --> 00:03:29,018 Everyone around me was killed. 74 00:03:29,018 --> 00:03:31,310 TJ DUFF: There's bodies, alive and dead, being piled up 75 00:03:31,310 --> 00:03:34,830 in the midships, and I think that's really where I just 76 00:03:34,830 --> 00:03:36,910 started holding everything in. 77 00:03:36,910 --> 00:03:40,430 I don't have it where I'm jumping in ditches 78 00:03:40,430 --> 00:03:41,930 when I hear loud noises. 79 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:46,750 My PTSD is kind of a self-destructive form. 80 00:03:46,750 --> 00:03:49,450 ANDERSON COOPER: Randy Weaver is a police officer in New York. 81 00:03:49,450 --> 00:03:51,370 A former staff sergeant in the Army, 82 00:03:51,370 --> 00:03:54,470 he was diagnosed with PTSD in 2007 83 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:57,720 after returning home from tours in Bosnia, Iraq, 84 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,340 and Afghanistan. 85 00:03:59,340 --> 00:04:02,260 It's the constant, what if I had done this? 86 00:04:02,260 --> 00:04:03,700 What if we did that? 87 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:07,700 Are those things you want to revisit while you're 88 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:09,040 taking the psilocybin? 89 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:14,340 Yeah, if I could revisit them and see them maybe 90 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:18,180 from a different perspective, not where I failed somebody. 91 00:04:18,180 --> 00:04:20,140 Is there a particular incident that you 92 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:21,519 feel you failed somebody? 93 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:25,900 Yeah. 94 00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:30,380 So March 18, 20 years ago. 95 00:04:30,380 --> 00:04:32,340 ANDERSON COOPER: In 2004, Weaver's platoon 96 00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:35,260 was caught in a firefight in an Afghan village. 97 00:04:35,260 --> 00:04:38,280 Two soldiers were killed, one of them, his friend, 98 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:40,420 Staff Sergeant Anthony Lagman. 99 00:04:40,420 --> 00:04:42,820 Weaver's, warned this bracelet with Lagman's name 100 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:44,257 on it since coming home. 101 00:04:44,257 --> 00:04:45,840 You've been wearing that for 20 years? 102 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:47,325 Yeah, every day. 103 00:04:47,325 --> 00:04:48,700 ANDERSON COOPER: Weaver says he's 104 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:52,200 tried nearly every treatment for PTSD the VA offers, 105 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,880 including talk therapy, exposure therapy, meditation, 106 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,760 and antidepressants. 107 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,480 You get to a point where you're so mentally exhausted 108 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,960 and you've created so much destruction 109 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,880 that your demons tell yourself that your family would 110 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,400 be better off without you. 111 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,440 And when those demons tell you those things every day, 112 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,280 it's something hard to ignore. 113 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:19,200 Will this help with that? 114 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,595 I hope so. 115 00:05:20,595 --> 00:05:22,720 ANDERSON COOPER: The retreat was organized and paid 116 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,000 for by the Heroic Hearts Project, a nonprofit that's 117 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,840 helped more than a thousand US veterans 118 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,680 with combat-related PTSD access psychedelics. 119 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,320 I came home super angry, super anxious, hypervigilant. 120 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,620 That led to a pretty nasty divorce. 121 00:05:38,620 --> 00:05:41,260 ANDERSON COOPER: Ed Glover was in Afghanistan with the Marines. 122 00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:44,020 He's been a firefighter for 22 years. 123 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:45,640 I feel one or two traumatic events 124 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,140 you may be able to recover from, but seeing it day in, 125 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:52,160 day out really takes its toll. 126 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,620 ANDERSON COOPER: As the vets talked, it became clear, 127 00:05:54,620 --> 00:05:57,220 some of their struggles began long before they 128 00:05:57,220 --> 00:05:58,360 joined the military. 129 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,700 My family life was just always this constant conflict. 130 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:02,740 ANDERSON COOPER: Navy vet Michael Giardina 131 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:04,580 had an emotionally abusive father who 132 00:06:04,580 --> 00:06:06,780 killed himself 17 years ago. 133 00:06:06,780 --> 00:06:10,460 His sister died by suicide five months before he came here. 134 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:13,660 My daughter asked my ex-wife if I was going to kill myself, 135 00:06:13,660 --> 00:06:14,860 and I'm not. 136 00:06:14,860 --> 00:06:16,005 I just want to get better. 137 00:06:16,005 --> 00:06:17,880 ANDERSON COOPER: To qualify for this retreat, 138 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,338 they had to work with their doctors 139 00:06:19,338 --> 00:06:22,780 to wean off any antidepressants or anxiety medication they might 140 00:06:22,780 --> 00:06:24,660 be taking because of how it could 141 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:26,740 interact with the psychedelics. 142 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:30,300 They also had to have a medical screening and no family history 143 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:32,500 of psychosis or schizophrenia. 144 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:34,100 When we were there, a local doctor 145 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:37,440 was on site, but no mental health professionals. 146 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,520 I appreciate you guys for putting the faith in me, 147 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,300 the faith in us coming here. 148 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:45,440 ANDERSON COOPER: Jesse Gould, a former Army Ranger, 149 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,500 founded the Heroic Hearts Project in 2017 150 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:51,570 after he tried another psychedelic, ayahuasca, 151 00:06:51,570 --> 00:06:53,370 at a retreat in Peru. 152 00:06:53,370 --> 00:06:56,250 Gould says psychedelics can help veterans revisit 153 00:06:56,250 --> 00:06:58,290 traumatic moments in ways they may be 154 00:06:58,290 --> 00:06:59,830 unable to with other therapies. 155 00:06:59,830 --> 00:07:01,330 JESSE GOULD: The value of what we're 156 00:07:01,330 --> 00:07:03,410 finding with psychedelics is it's 157 00:07:03,410 --> 00:07:05,350 a very individualistic journey. 158 00:07:05,350 --> 00:07:06,470 It comes at you. 159 00:07:06,470 --> 00:07:07,590 It brings up the emotions. 160 00:07:07,590 --> 00:07:08,870 It heightens your senses. 161 00:07:08,870 --> 00:07:10,470 And so you're having to face it. 162 00:07:10,470 --> 00:07:12,450 And so that's why you see such big revelations, 163 00:07:12,450 --> 00:07:15,590 because it's giving you the tools to actually get there. 164 00:07:15,590 --> 00:07:18,210 Do you worry that some who see this as the last hope 165 00:07:18,210 --> 00:07:19,650 may end up disappointed? 166 00:07:19,650 --> 00:07:21,770 I worry that we're at the situation where 167 00:07:21,770 --> 00:07:24,830 people are having to go to other countries for their last hope. 168 00:07:24,830 --> 00:07:27,970 That indicates a major flaw in the system. 169 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:28,890 The orange one? 170 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:29,678 OK. 171 00:07:29,678 --> 00:07:31,970 ANDERSON COOPER: Heroic Heart tired traditional healers 172 00:07:31,970 --> 00:07:35,450 to conduct three psychedelic ceremonies, the first two 173 00:07:35,450 --> 00:07:38,450 with psilocybin, a psychoactive compound found 174 00:07:38,450 --> 00:07:39,810 in some mushrooms. 175 00:07:39,810 --> 00:07:43,530 It's been used as medicine by Indigenous communities in Mexico 176 00:07:43,530 --> 00:07:45,690 and elsewhere for centuries. 177 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:48,450 You don't need to be strong. 178 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:52,750 All we need for this experience and to receive the healing 179 00:07:52,750 --> 00:07:55,230 is humbleness. 180 00:07:55,230 --> 00:07:56,938 [BELL TOLLING] 181 00:07:56,938 --> 00:07:59,230 ANDERSON COOPER: The healer stirred ground-up mushrooms 182 00:07:59,230 --> 00:08:00,210 into a tea. 183 00:08:00,210 --> 00:08:02,752 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 184 00:08:02,752 --> 00:08:04,210 ANDERSON COOPER: The vets drank it, 185 00:08:04,210 --> 00:08:07,890 put on blindfolds to shut out distractions, and lay down. 186 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:11,378 [SINGING IN SPANISH] 187 00:08:13,330 --> 00:08:14,830 ANDERSON COOPER: At first, it seemed 188 00:08:14,830 --> 00:08:16,950 like the group might have traveled thousands 189 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:20,950 of miles for a midday nap. 190 00:08:20,950 --> 00:08:24,990 But then about an hour in, we saw Michael Giardina 191 00:08:24,990 --> 00:08:27,870 raise his hand for help. 192 00:08:27,870 --> 00:08:32,789 His foot soon started to shake, followed by his whole body. 193 00:08:32,789 --> 00:08:35,561 [NON-ENGLISH SINGING] 194 00:08:42,132 --> 00:08:43,549 ANDERSON COOPER: By hour three, it 195 00:08:43,549 --> 00:08:46,550 was clear the psilocybin had kicked in. 196 00:08:46,550 --> 00:08:50,130 Randy Weaver and TJ Duff barely seemed to move, 197 00:08:50,130 --> 00:08:52,130 while firefighter Ed Glover appeared 198 00:08:52,130 --> 00:08:55,250 caught between rapture and deep sorrow. 199 00:08:55,250 --> 00:08:58,930 WOMAN: (SINGING) When you let go of fear 200 00:08:58,930 --> 00:09:04,250 The truth will all be so simple and clear 201 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:06,190 [XYLOPHONE CHIMING] 202 00:09:07,333 --> 00:09:08,750 ANDERSON COOPER: Five hours later, 203 00:09:08,750 --> 00:09:11,010 when the psilocybin began to wear off, 204 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:13,370 the vets removed their eye masks and found 205 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:17,330 the heat of the afternoon sun. 206 00:09:17,330 --> 00:09:19,450 The next day, the group gathered to discuss 207 00:09:19,450 --> 00:09:20,850 what they'd gone through. 208 00:09:20,850 --> 00:09:22,950 It literally felt like an exorcism. 209 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:26,090 My foot was going crazy, and I could feel 210 00:09:26,090 --> 00:09:27,930 like my body was convulsing. 211 00:09:27,930 --> 00:09:32,390 I felt like I was taking every last breath of any victim, 212 00:09:32,390 --> 00:09:34,430 patient, or friend that I had lost. 213 00:09:34,430 --> 00:09:36,450 So I really struggled to breathe yesterday. 214 00:09:36,450 --> 00:09:39,347 I've never done anything like that before. 215 00:09:39,347 --> 00:09:40,930 ANDERSON COOPER: Randy Weaver appeared 216 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:44,110 to find some of what he traveled all this way for. 217 00:09:44,110 --> 00:09:48,840 One thing that I remember very vividly 218 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:56,620 was flying back with the guys that we lost. 219 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:00,620 It's like being on that medevac. 220 00:10:00,620 --> 00:10:03,180 Even though I wasn't there in the real world, 221 00:10:03,180 --> 00:10:07,323 I was there spiritually with them. 222 00:10:07,323 --> 00:10:08,740 ANDERSON COOPER: TJ Duff, however, 223 00:10:08,740 --> 00:10:11,192 found it unsettling and at times scary. 224 00:10:11,192 --> 00:10:12,900 I've heard a lot of your guys' stories, 225 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:14,860 and I did not get as immersive as you guys did. 226 00:10:14,860 --> 00:10:16,660 I'm kind of glad I didn't, honestly, 227 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:18,760 because I was kind of afraid of that, but-- 228 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,552 ANDERSON COOPER: That night, Duff took part 229 00:10:20,552 --> 00:10:22,520 in another psilocybin ceremony. 230 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,400 But the next day, he left. 231 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,240 He later told us the whole experience 232 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,060 caused a dangerous decline in his mental health. 233 00:10:29,060 --> 00:10:32,440 He's now back on antidepressant medication. 234 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,680 The last ceremony of the retreat was with 5-MeO-DMT, 235 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:40,240 a powerful and fast-acting psychedelic secreted from 236 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,520 a toad. 237 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,920 After returning home, the vets had several virtual meetings 238 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,480 with a Heroic Hearts Project counselor. 239 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,060 I think my biggest takeaway was 240 00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:55,203 making sure I make the time to take care of myself. 241 00:10:55,203 --> 00:10:57,620 ANDERSON COOPER: The Veterans Administration warns against 242 00:10:57,620 --> 00:10:59,500 "self-medicating with psychedelics" 243 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:02,900 or using them as "part of a self-treatment program." 244 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:05,920 But when we spoke to its top doctor, Shereef Elnahal, 245 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,860 in 2024, he was enthusiastic about their potential. 246 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:11,900 Do these retreats concern you? 247 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:13,580 They can concern me because there's 248 00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:17,820 no way to monitor, certify, make sure that they're actually 249 00:11:17,820 --> 00:11:18,880 safe environments. 250 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,060 They're seeking these therapies because they do not 251 00:11:21,060 --> 00:11:24,200 see our current options for them to be effective enough, 252 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,080 and they're in a state of desperation. 253 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,500 And that, in and of itself, them seeking 254 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:31,460 this type of unauthorized therapy, 255 00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:32,980 is just another indication on why 256 00:11:32,980 --> 00:11:34,980 we need to study this further and get it 257 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:37,340 to a safe and effective medical environment. 258 00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:39,060 ANDERSON COOPER: In 2024, the FDA 259 00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:41,700 rejected a pharmaceutical company's application 260 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,690 to use the psychedelic MDMA in combination 261 00:11:44,690 --> 00:11:47,530 with therapy as a treatment for PTSD 262 00:11:47,530 --> 00:11:51,010 after an FDA advisory panel said there wasn't enough evidence 263 00:11:51,010 --> 00:11:53,410 that it was safe or effective. 264 00:11:53,410 --> 00:11:56,850 The VA is now involved in 20 clinical trials using 265 00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:59,750 psychedelics, including MDMA and psilocybin, 266 00:11:59,750 --> 00:12:02,450 to treat several mental health disorders. 267 00:12:02,450 --> 00:12:06,050 Dr. Elnahal told us a small phase 2 trial by the VA 268 00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:10,990 using MDMA and therapy to treat PTSD, completed two years ago, 269 00:12:10,990 --> 00:12:12,650 showed real promise. 270 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:16,410 45% have gone into complete remission, which is essentially 271 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:18,250 a normal emotional state. 272 00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:20,990 That is unheard of with prolonged exposure, 273 00:12:20,990 --> 00:12:22,650 cognitive processing, and certainly 274 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:25,630 SSRIs, the current standard of care options. 275 00:12:25,630 --> 00:12:28,890 Almost half of the people who came in with PTSD 276 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:33,310 and did MDMA therapy at the VA were cured? 277 00:12:33,310 --> 00:12:33,930 Yes. 278 00:12:33,930 --> 00:12:35,990 So you have no doubt that this works? 279 00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:39,070 We need to do larger phase 3 clinical trials. 280 00:12:39,070 --> 00:12:41,090 That's the best way scientifically 281 00:12:41,090 --> 00:12:45,190 to understand what the true adverse events are 282 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:47,830 and whether we can reproduce these results in larger 283 00:12:47,830 --> 00:12:49,410 populations of veterans. 284 00:12:49,410 --> 00:12:52,093 I'm very optimistic we will be able to demonstrate that. 285 00:12:52,093 --> 00:12:53,510 How long do you think it will be 286 00:12:53,510 --> 00:12:57,642 before veterans can go to the VA and get this therapy? 287 00:12:57,642 --> 00:12:59,850 SHEREEF ELNAHAL: It could be another couple of years. 288 00:12:59,850 --> 00:13:03,710 The incoming administration is going to take pretty bold stance 289 00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:04,330 on this. 290 00:13:04,330 --> 00:13:07,590 What makes you optimistic that the new administration is 291 00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:09,730 going to be a believer in this? 292 00:13:09,730 --> 00:13:12,990 We've heard the nominee for HHS, Robert F. Kennedy 293 00:13:12,990 --> 00:13:15,990 Jr., talk about what he thinks the potential breakthrough 294 00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:17,310 therapy is. 295 00:13:17,310 --> 00:13:20,190 We'll see what the stance is of other health officials. 296 00:13:20,190 --> 00:13:22,270 That's really promising. 297 00:13:22,270 --> 00:13:24,930 ANDERSON COOPER: Nearly a year after that retreat in Mexico, 298 00:13:24,930 --> 00:13:27,790 we checked in with the nine veterans who attended. 299 00:13:27,790 --> 00:13:30,750 Eight of them told us their symptoms had improved 300 00:13:30,750 --> 00:13:35,110 and called their experience with psychedelics life-changing. 301 00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:38,070 Ed Glover said he felt like a weight had been lifted off 302 00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:39,310 his shoulders. 303 00:13:39,310 --> 00:13:40,630 How are you doing? 304 00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:41,690 Very well. 305 00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:44,190 ANDERSON COOPER: Shortly after coming home from the retreat, 306 00:13:44,190 --> 00:13:46,530 he decided to retire as a firefighter. 307 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:47,970 Prior to the retreat, I thought 308 00:13:47,970 --> 00:13:49,810 about taking my life just about every day. 309 00:13:49,810 --> 00:13:51,810 I had a very close call. 310 00:13:51,810 --> 00:13:53,690 The note, the gun. 311 00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:55,530 That is no longer the case. 312 00:13:55,530 --> 00:13:58,790 You haven't had thoughts of killing yourself since then? 313 00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:59,795 Not one. 314 00:13:59,795 --> 00:14:01,170 ANDERSON COOPER: And Randy Weaver 315 00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:04,790 says his suicidal ideations have stopped as well. 316 00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:09,490 I don't have any of those thoughts since going 317 00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:11,330 through this journey. 318 00:14:11,330 --> 00:14:13,850 That's remarkable. 319 00:14:13,850 --> 00:14:15,410 I would say yeah. 320 00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:18,090 You had told the group afterward 321 00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:24,770 that you had visualized people on a medevac helicopter 322 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:26,030 that you had served with. 323 00:14:26,030 --> 00:14:26,530 Yeah. 324 00:14:26,530 --> 00:14:28,405 ANDERSON COOPER: What was the impact of that? 325 00:14:28,405 --> 00:14:30,210 In combat, things happen quickly. 326 00:14:30,210 --> 00:14:32,470 One minute you're talking to your friend, 327 00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:36,690 and the next minute, you're putting him in a body bag. 328 00:14:36,690 --> 00:14:40,960 That causes a gap in your psyche. 329 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,080 So to be able to revisit those incidences, 330 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,540 seeing those helicopters come back with friends, 331 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:51,840 it brings a little peace to you, yeah. 332 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,480 In April, President Trump signed an executive order 333 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,760 seeking to accelerate the research and approval 334 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,900 of some psychedelic drugs as mental health treatments, 335 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:04,200 including psilocybin and MDMA, by directing federal agencies 336 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,920 to ease restrictions that have long limited scientists' ability 337 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,480 to study them. 338 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,480 [CLOCK TICKING] 339 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,820 Every year, on Mardi Gras morning, 340 00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:22,800 something extraordinary emerges from the back streets 341 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,040 of New Orleans-- 342 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,120 groups of Black revelers most tourists will never see. 343 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,880 They call themselves Mardi Gras Indians, or Black Masking 344 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,640 Indians, and they roam the city's neighborhoods 345 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,720 in dazzling, hand-sewn suits. 346 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,100 As we first told you in April, the tradition dates to the 1800s 347 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:44,900 as a way to honor their ancestors and, according 348 00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:49,140 to Mardi Gras Indian lore, is rooted in profound respect 349 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:52,660 for Native Americans, said to have sheltered enslaved Africans 350 00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:54,140 who had escaped. 351 00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:58,020 It's an expression of joy, protest, and pride, passed 352 00:15:58,020 --> 00:16:00,500 from generation to generation. 353 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,480 Tonight, you'll meet the artists and musicians, 354 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,420 preserving the culture and take in the sights 355 00:16:06,420 --> 00:16:12,100 and sounds of one of America's last true secret societies. 356 00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:14,040 [SHOUTING] 357 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,010 [SHOUTS] 358 00:16:15,010 --> 00:16:15,980 [SCREAMING] 359 00:16:15,980 --> 00:16:19,380 Mardi Gras! 360 00:16:19,380 --> 00:16:21,560 BILL WHITAKER: If you're lucky enough to find them, 361 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,440 you'll discover a vibrant tapestry of African, Caribbean, 362 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,280 and Native American threads-- 363 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:27,908 [NON-ENGLISH] 364 00:16:27,908 --> 00:16:29,700 BILL WHITAKER: --part of the cultural gumbo 365 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:31,280 that is New Orleans. 366 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,460 [INDISTINCT], Oklahoma. 367 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:38,110 BILL WHITAKER: These extravagant suits-- plumed, bejeweled, 368 00:16:38,110 --> 00:16:40,890 beaded, and sequined-- are handcrafted 369 00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:47,662 in secret for an entire year to be unveiled on Mardi Gras day. 370 00:16:47,662 --> 00:16:48,770 Chawaa! 371 00:16:48,770 --> 00:16:51,930 BILL WHITAKER: Chawaa-- that's Big Chief Demond 372 00:16:51,930 --> 00:16:55,890 Melancon of the Young Seminole Hunters announcing his arrival. 373 00:16:55,890 --> 00:16:57,230 Chawaa! 374 00:16:57,230 --> 00:16:58,650 DEMOND MELANCON: Chawaa. 375 00:16:58,650 --> 00:16:59,690 Who the best? 376 00:16:59,690 --> 00:17:01,030 Who got the best beadwork? 377 00:17:01,030 --> 00:17:02,590 Who got the best rhinestones? 378 00:17:02,590 --> 00:17:04,770 Who could sing the best? 379 00:17:04,770 --> 00:17:06,069 Who got the biggest tribe? 380 00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:06,829 Who don't? 381 00:17:06,829 --> 00:17:08,329 That's what it is. 382 00:17:08,329 --> 00:17:11,089 BILL WHITAKER: There are dozens of groups calling themselves 383 00:17:11,089 --> 00:17:12,010 tribes. 384 00:17:12,010 --> 00:17:15,150 The leader is known as the big chief, who, 385 00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:17,589 along with his big queen and their crew, 386 00:17:17,589 --> 00:17:20,530 strut through historically Black neighborhoods searching 387 00:17:20,530 --> 00:17:22,770 for other tribes. 388 00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:25,930 When Big Chief Demond meets another big chief-- 389 00:17:25,930 --> 00:17:28,110 [INDISTINCT SINGING] 390 00:17:28,610 --> 00:17:30,710 BILL WHITAKER: --they square off in mock battle, 391 00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:36,150 competing to show whose suit is, in their words, the prettiest. 392 00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:39,880 We saw Demond face down tribes all over the city. 393 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,130 What just happened back there? 394 00:17:41,130 --> 00:17:44,830 It looked like he just bowed out. 395 00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:45,713 But you won. 396 00:17:45,713 --> 00:17:46,630 Yeah, I think I did. 397 00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:47,672 You were the prettiest? 398 00:17:47,672 --> 00:17:48,470 Yeah. 399 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:50,510 Because we on fire. 400 00:17:50,510 --> 00:17:55,550 We on fire. 401 00:17:55,550 --> 00:17:58,170 BILL WHITAKER: Who are you on Mardi Gras day? 402 00:17:58,170 --> 00:18:01,140 When I put that suit on, I'm Big Chief Demond Melancon. 403 00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:03,390 Is that different from the Demond who's sitting here 404 00:18:03,390 --> 00:18:03,750 in front of me now? 405 00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:05,050 Yes, indeed. 406 00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:05,830 How different? 407 00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:07,950 Somebody that's ready to honor everything 408 00:18:07,950 --> 00:18:10,230 that I was taught by my elders. 409 00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:13,670 And I'm ready to kill you dead with the needle and thread. 410 00:18:13,670 --> 00:18:16,470 BILL WHITAKER: Needle and thread to do the work of his heart 411 00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:17,870 and hands. 412 00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:22,230 Big Chief Demond and his wife, Alicia, meticulous as surgeons, 413 00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:26,390 sow beads the size of chia seeds on a canvas and stitch 414 00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:29,950 rhinestones in place with dental floss. 415 00:18:29,950 --> 00:18:33,650 Painting with beads, making artwork for his suit. 416 00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:36,830 What to you makes a suit pretty? 417 00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:37,518 The hookup. 418 00:18:37,518 --> 00:18:38,310 What do you mean? 419 00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:39,750 How it's laid out. 420 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:41,490 How the velvet gets around it. 421 00:18:41,490 --> 00:18:42,870 How you break the feathers. 422 00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:44,430 How you manipulate the feathers. 423 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:47,190 How many rows of rhinestones you have around the beadwork. 424 00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:49,770 That's the perfection of knowing your hookup, 425 00:18:49,770 --> 00:18:51,290 if you're that good. 426 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:52,450 BILL WHITAKER: Oh, wow. 427 00:18:52,450 --> 00:18:55,610 This year's suit tells the story of the Amistad, 428 00:18:55,610 --> 00:18:58,530 a slave ship seized by the captive Africans 429 00:18:58,530 --> 00:19:03,490 in 1839, led by a man called Cinque. 430 00:19:03,490 --> 00:19:05,370 This panel shows when the Africans 431 00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:09,950 won their freedom in a case that went to the US Supreme Court. 432 00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:10,788 Look at this. 433 00:19:10,788 --> 00:19:12,330 DEMOND MELANCON: John Quincy Adam, he 434 00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:14,510 was one of the lawyers on the case. 435 00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:15,690 My god. 436 00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:17,770 So you're doing this nonstop. 437 00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:20,430 I sew from 6:00 in the morning to 12:00 at night. 438 00:19:20,430 --> 00:19:21,510 And this is every day? 439 00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:23,850 Every day. 440 00:19:23,850 --> 00:19:24,870 Why? 441 00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:25,570 Hmm. 442 00:19:25,570 --> 00:19:26,070 Man. 443 00:19:28,690 --> 00:19:32,480 Without these beads, I couldn't breathe. 444 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,320 BILL WHITAKER: And every breath is hard-earned. 445 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,160 It can take thousands of dollars and thousands of hours 446 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,260 to design and sew a suit. 447 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:43,840 For years, Big Chief Demond was laying concrete and cooking 448 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,840 lobsters, pouring all his spare time and money 449 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,400 into his creations. 450 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,800 He now makes a living as an artist. 451 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,560 This year's suit cost $25,000. 452 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,220 But this flamboyant display is not a beauty pageant. 453 00:19:58,220 --> 00:20:01,040 It's the flowering of deep roots. 454 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,420 DEMOND MELANCON: The community is what makes me. 455 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:04,880 It's my fuel. 456 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:05,500 The people. 457 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:06,003 Your fuel? 458 00:20:06,003 --> 00:20:06,920 DEMOND MELANCON: Yeah. 459 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,520 It fuels the fire. 460 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Because you're doing it for them. 461 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,820 You do this for your community and your people. 462 00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:18,040 The greatest kept secret in America and throughout the world 463 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,480 today is the Mardi Gras Indian culture. 464 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,760 These cultures date back to slavery days. 465 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:24,855 I have hope-- 466 00:20:24,855 --> 00:20:27,480 BILL WHITAKER: Howard Miller is the president of the Mardi Gras 467 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,560 Indian Council, a governing body for the tribes, 468 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,660 and chief of the Creole Wild West. 469 00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:37,620 He told us it's a culture shaped by resistance to oppression 470 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:40,500 and sustained by resilience. 471 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:43,020 How would you explain the Mardi Gras Indians 472 00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:46,440 to people who don't have a clue what they're about? 473 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,580 Well, we weren't allowed to go to those parades and stuff. 474 00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:53,740 So this in our community was about uplifting our people 475 00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:56,300 in a proudly manner. 476 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,280 BILL WHITAKER: There's no one definitive origin story, 477 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,100 but historians have found references 478 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,700 to the tradition dating back to the mid-1800s. 479 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:07,660 According to stories passed down through generations, 480 00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:10,360 when enslaved people escaped New Orleans, 481 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:13,740 Native Americans in the bayous gave them refuge. 482 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:18,060 Today, many tribe members claim Indigenous and African roots. 483 00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:20,500 Masking, some say, began as a way 484 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:24,780 to honor those Indigenous tribes while disguising or masking 485 00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:26,820 their African identity. 486 00:21:26,820 --> 00:21:29,970 Because here in America, especially here in the South, 487 00:21:29,970 --> 00:21:32,710 everything about Africa was forbidden. 488 00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:36,790 So we went behind a mask as Indians to practice our culture. 489 00:21:36,790 --> 00:21:38,470 Was it easy to join a tribe? 490 00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:39,390 No, it wasn't. 491 00:21:39,390 --> 00:21:44,010 BILL WHITAKER: In 1969, it took then-12-year-old Howard Miller 492 00:21:44,010 --> 00:21:47,990 six weeks just to get in the door of a big chief's house, 493 00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:49,508 the tribe's headquarters. 494 00:21:49,508 --> 00:21:50,550 I had a friend of mine. 495 00:21:50,550 --> 00:21:51,570 He was in it. 496 00:21:51,570 --> 00:21:55,730 And I would go around there with him, trying to get in. 497 00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:57,272 But they wouldn't let me in the gate. 498 00:21:57,272 --> 00:21:58,772 Wouldn't even let you in the gate? 499 00:21:58,772 --> 00:22:01,270 No, I had to stay outside the yard while he go in there. 500 00:22:01,270 --> 00:22:03,250 Eventually, I got on the porch. 501 00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:06,250 And I was watching all this magic with the suits 502 00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:07,450 and what they was doing. 503 00:22:07,450 --> 00:22:10,370 And it started rainstorm, thunder, lightning, 504 00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:11,270 raining hard. 505 00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:12,730 I'm getting wet. 506 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:15,990 And the chief said, that boy is still on the porch? 507 00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:17,210 And somebody said, yep. 508 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:18,970 Tell that boy to come on in here. 509 00:22:18,970 --> 00:22:21,170 That's how I got in the house. 510 00:22:21,170 --> 00:22:24,490 BILL WHITAKER: We visited the home of Joseph Pierre Boudreaux, 511 00:22:24,490 --> 00:22:28,710 better known as Big Chief Monk of the Golden Eagles tribe. 512 00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:31,530 Big chiefs aren't just heads of their tribes, 513 00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:33,930 they're mentors and community leaders. 514 00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:37,630 And Big Chief Monk is one of the most respected. 515 00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:39,350 But the working-class neighborhoods 516 00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:42,550 that sustain the tribes have been thinned and scattered 517 00:22:42,550 --> 00:22:45,670 by Hurricane Katrina and gentrification. 518 00:22:45,670 --> 00:22:49,350 84-year-old Monk Boudreaux is determined to hold 519 00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:53,910 on to the community and legacy and is preparing for his 72nd 520 00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:55,870 year of masking. 521 00:22:55,870 --> 00:22:59,790 We're going to do it. 522 00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:02,690 Let the world know that we're here, and we've been here. 523 00:23:02,690 --> 00:23:03,770 We ain't just got here. 524 00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:04,910 We've been here. 525 00:23:04,910 --> 00:23:06,253 You ain't going to see that. 526 00:23:06,253 --> 00:23:08,670 BILL WHITAKER: We joined the Boudreauxs in a sewing circle 527 00:23:08,670 --> 00:23:10,110 before Mardi Gras. 528 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:13,630 For decades, Big Chief Monk sewed suits for his children 529 00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:14,970 and grandchildren. 530 00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:18,815 This year, they gathered and helped him sew his. 531 00:23:18,815 --> 00:23:20,190 MONK BOUDREAUX: My whole family's 532 00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:25,150 talented, by just sitting there watching me for all these years, 533 00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:26,830 as kids. 534 00:23:26,830 --> 00:23:29,290 They were always right there while I was sewing, 535 00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:30,730 sitting right there. 536 00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:35,250 (SINGING) I sew all night long 537 00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:39,098 BILL WHITAKER: All those long hours of sewing inspired a song. 538 00:23:39,098 --> 00:23:41,390 (SINGING) They saw that moment till the break of dawn 539 00:23:41,390 --> 00:23:43,410 Everybody got soul, soul, soul 540 00:23:43,410 --> 00:23:44,768 BILL WHITAKER: In the 1970s-- 541 00:23:44,768 --> 00:23:46,310 (SINGING) Fine with the high land-- 542 00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:49,090 BILL WHITAKER: --Monk was one of the first to marry Mardi Gras 543 00:23:49,090 --> 00:23:52,090 Indian chants to New Orleans funk. 544 00:23:52,090 --> 00:23:55,010 His albums earned two Grammy nominations. 545 00:23:55,010 --> 00:24:00,450 His son Joseph and grandson J'Wan often sang backup. 546 00:24:00,450 --> 00:24:04,670 We met them, Monk's daughter Wynoka and grandson Marwan, 547 00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:07,550 at one of Monk's favorite New Orleans clubs-- 548 00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:08,930 Tipitina's. 549 00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:11,310 What's his impact on the culture? 550 00:24:11,310 --> 00:24:13,733 The impact that Michael Jordan had on basketball. 551 00:24:13,733 --> 00:24:14,650 I'll put it like that. 552 00:24:14,650 --> 00:24:16,050 Yeah, it's like that. 553 00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:18,550 You can't mention Mardi Gras without Monk, our chief. 554 00:24:18,550 --> 00:24:20,770 I never saw him take a break. 555 00:24:20,770 --> 00:24:24,650 I never saw him say, oh, this year I'm not coming. 556 00:24:24,650 --> 00:24:27,560 My father, he took something that 557 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,680 was made for the culture in the streets, 558 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,080 and he was one of the pioneers that took it global. 559 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,520 There's not a person in the city of New Orleans that 560 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,622 sews an Indian suit and they don't put on his music. 561 00:24:40,622 --> 00:24:42,080 (SINGING) Say what you want about-- 562 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,540 BILL WHITAKER: Big Chief Demond included. 563 00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:48,120 [INDISTINCT LYRICS] 564 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:49,880 That man make me cry. 565 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,760 Like Monk. 566 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,280 He do me something. 567 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,960 BILL WHITAKER: He's moved by the music 568 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,960 and the weight of his calling. 569 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,760 The expense almost left him destitute. 570 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,925 You sacrificed a lot to make these suits. 571 00:25:03,925 --> 00:25:04,800 DEMOND MELANCON: Mhm. 572 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,680 You lost a house because you were so 573 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,780 consumed with making your suit? 574 00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:11,080 Yeah, yeah. 575 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,500 Because it's hard. 576 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:16,940 I know it's hard, but losing the House didn't make you stop? 577 00:25:16,940 --> 00:25:17,760 What? 578 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,240 Why? 579 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,907 Because you got put out of your house. 580 00:25:20,907 --> 00:25:22,080 No, indeed. 581 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,700 I'm preserving the culture. 582 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,940 BILL WHITAKER: And the fine-art world has taken notice. 583 00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:30,020 His suits and beaded portraits have 584 00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:34,060 been displayed in museums and galleries all over the world. 585 00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:36,660 It's allowed him to buy a new house, 586 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:40,440 every inch of which was covered with plumes and patches 587 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,300 the evening before Mardi Gras. 588 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:43,902 Y'all ready? 589 00:25:43,902 --> 00:25:45,860 BILL WHITAKER: After working through the night, 590 00:25:45,860 --> 00:25:49,020 Big Chief Demond emerged transformed 591 00:25:49,020 --> 00:25:51,780 in a suit that stood more than 10 feet tall 592 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:54,660 and weighed 120 pounds. 593 00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:57,900 He used a U-Haul to move from place to place. 594 00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:01,140 But he tells us there was something else carrying him 595 00:26:01,140 --> 00:26:02,100 along. 596 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,900 The spirits come down every time we put it on, especially 597 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:05,560 with me. 598 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,468 My elders lived through me, and it's an opening of the gates. 599 00:26:10,468 --> 00:26:11,260 What do you mean? 600 00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:12,800 That means they came down. 601 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,380 They coming through me to walk in their shoes 602 00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:19,280 on the streets of New Orleans like they taught us. 603 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,140 So what we're doing is we're preserving it 604 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:24,020 for that next generation to be able to walk like I walk. 605 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:25,758 It's going to change my life. 606 00:26:25,758 --> 00:26:27,300 BILL WHITAKER: The spirits, it seems, 607 00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:29,240 are opening up the gates for him. 608 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,760 This suit is currently on display 609 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,720 at the Venice Biennale in Italy, the world's most prestigious art 610 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,200 exhibition. 611 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,040 You think your success in the art world 612 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,160 will encourage a younger generation carry on 613 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,280 with this culture? 614 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,120 I pray it does. 615 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,000 And I pray one of them picks up a needle and won't do what I do. 616 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,760 BILL WHITAKER: Preserving tradition 617 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,600 for the next generation-- we heard that a lot here. 618 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,360 It's what Big Chief Monk lives for. 619 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,120 But this year, he was too weak to March with his tribe. 620 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,480 Just before Mardi Gras, he was diagnosed with cancer. 621 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,320 [CHEERING] 622 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,520 But he came out on his porch to see the tribe off with the Mardi 623 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,020 Gras Indians' most sacred hymn. 624 00:27:19,020 --> 00:27:21,654 [ALL SINGING "INDIAN RED"] 625 00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:28,030 [INDISTINCT SINGING] 626 00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:32,510 What's it like for you to see your tribe march off 627 00:27:32,510 --> 00:27:35,470 and you're not joining them this year? 628 00:27:35,470 --> 00:27:38,090 Well, I knew that time was going to come, 629 00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:39,430 but I didn't know when. 630 00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:41,270 But you got to see this day. 631 00:27:41,270 --> 00:27:42,870 Yeah, right. 632 00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:45,593 Well, I was going to see this day. 633 00:27:45,593 --> 00:27:47,510 BILL WHITAKER: And the day is coming, he told, 634 00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:50,993 us for him to pass his crown on to the next chief. 635 00:27:50,993 --> 00:27:53,410 Like I said, if you don't keep it going, if you lose it, 636 00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:54,750 it's gone forever. 637 00:27:54,750 --> 00:27:56,230 It's finished. 638 00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:59,310 And that thin just disappear? 639 00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,570 Not here in New Orleans. 640 00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:05,550 No, uh-uh. 641 00:28:05,550 --> 00:28:08,190 We keep it rolling. 642 00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:11,030 BILL WHITAKER: Keeping it rolling and chanting and showing 643 00:28:11,030 --> 00:28:11,830 off-- 644 00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:15,030 a culture in full bloom, too pretty, 645 00:28:15,030 --> 00:28:19,430 too rooted to fade, just yet. 646 00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:20,670 [CLOCK TICKING] 647 00:28:24,810 --> 00:28:26,833 ANNOUNCER: The anatomy of a showdown. 648 00:28:26,833 --> 00:28:27,750 There's a wall fell. 649 00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:28,890 It's basically a battle. 650 00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:30,770 [INDISTINCT SINGING] 651 00:28:30,770 --> 00:28:33,430 ANNOUNCER: At 60minutesovertime.com. 652 00:28:37,254 --> 00:28:39,166 [CLOCK TICKING] 653 00:28:42,050 --> 00:28:44,570 You're an 86-year-old titan of literature, 654 00:28:44,570 --> 00:28:46,770 have been for half a century now. 655 00:28:46,770 --> 00:28:48,790 Your Canada's best-known author-- 656 00:28:48,790 --> 00:28:50,770 64 books and counting. 657 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:52,490 And increasingly you find your work 658 00:28:52,490 --> 00:28:55,890 on lists of banned books, scrubbed from 135 659 00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:57,770 American school districts. 660 00:28:57,770 --> 00:29:00,250 Yes, that includes your breakthrough work, the dystopian 661 00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:01,710 novel The Handmaid's Tale. 662 00:29:01,710 --> 00:29:04,650 But you've also been censored for work like The Testaments 663 00:29:04,650 --> 00:29:06,730 and The Blind Assassin,both of which 664 00:29:06,730 --> 00:29:08,490 won the Booker Prize, the top award 665 00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:10,530 for English-language fiction. 666 00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:11,530 What to do? 667 00:29:11,530 --> 00:29:14,770 Sure, you take to the keyboard and write sternly worded opinion 668 00:29:14,770 --> 00:29:15,690 pieces. 669 00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:17,670 But as we first told you last fall, 670 00:29:17,670 --> 00:29:19,980 if you're the indomitable Margaret Atwood, 671 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:21,340 you don't stop there. 672 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,360 Here she is, taking a flamethrower to her own book. 673 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,520 Atwood was firing back at would-be book burners 674 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,480 by torching an unburnable edition. 675 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,840 It was all promotion for a charity auction 676 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,400 to benefit PEN America, a nonprofit that champions free 677 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,600 speech. 678 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,840 Atwood's books have been banned for content 679 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,800 deemed overly sexual, morally corrupt, anti-Christian. 680 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,000 She told us she was particularly peeved 681 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,940 when a recent ban came from Edmonton, Alberta, 682 00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:55,220 in her own country. 683 00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:58,500 The government put out an edict to all school boards 684 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:01,000 saying that they couldn't have any books in the library that 685 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,480 had either direct or indirect sex. 686 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,790 What is indirect sex? 687 00:30:06,790 --> 00:30:08,040 JON WERTHEIM: Science fiction? 688 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,120 Have you had any indirect sex lately? 689 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,370 Second-wave feminism here. 690 00:30:13,370 --> 00:30:15,120 JON WERTHEIM: Atwood speaks as she writes, 691 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,980 with a mix of wisdom and deadpan wit. 692 00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:21,140 Last fall, she invited us into her Toronto home. 693 00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:23,420 Do you know offhand how many languages your books 694 00:30:23,420 --> 00:30:24,560 have been translated in? 695 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,420 Well, we say over 50 for everything. 696 00:30:27,420 --> 00:30:28,440 How old are you? 697 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,547 Over 50. 698 00:30:29,547 --> 00:30:30,880 How many books have you written? 699 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:31,860 Over 50. 700 00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:33,260 How many awards have you won? 701 00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:34,000 Over 50. 702 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:34,680 I thought so. 703 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,660 [LAUGHS] 704 00:30:36,660 --> 00:30:38,300 Under his eye. 705 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:41,180 JON WERTHEIM: Published in 1985, The Handmaid's Tale 706 00:30:41,180 --> 00:30:44,020 depicts a near-future America overtaken 707 00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:46,980 by religious dictatorship, where a dwindling number 708 00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:50,860 of fertile women are forced to cloak themselves in red and bear 709 00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:52,520 children for the elite. 710 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,758 Give me children, or else I die. 711 00:30:55,758 --> 00:30:58,300 JON WERTHEIM: The book would sell more than 10 million copies 712 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,980 and spawn an Emmy-winning Hulu series. 713 00:31:00,980 --> 00:31:03,420 Beyond that, its scarlet costume would 714 00:31:03,420 --> 00:31:07,380 become a uniform of real-life protest and resistance. 715 00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:08,900 Shame! 716 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:11,640 JON WERTHEIM: Handmaid's Taleis your magnum opus. 717 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:12,220 You think? 718 00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:13,240 Your Great Gatsby. 719 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,520 How are you with that? 720 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,440 Well, I would question the premise. 721 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,243 You would? 722 00:31:19,243 --> 00:31:20,160 MARGARET ATWOOD: Yeah. 723 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,420 It's not due to me or the excellence of the book. 724 00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:26,880 It's partly the twists and turns of history. 725 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,780 JON WERTHEIM: With the ongoing rollback of reproductive rights 726 00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:33,480 and the eventual overturning of Roe v. Wadein 2022, 727 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,120 The Handmaid'sTale began, for many readers, 728 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,400 to feel eerily prescient. 729 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,820 Had it been so that none of this ever got enacted, 730 00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:45,280 then it would probably be sitting on a shelf somewhere, 731 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,660 and people would be saying, oh, jolly good yarn, 732 00:31:47,660 --> 00:31:49,120 but it didn't happen. 733 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,500 JON WERTHEIM: Or didn't it? 734 00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:51,700 In 2003. 735 00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:53,840 Oryx and Crake,for instance, Atwood 736 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,360 wrote of environmental collapse and a global pandemic. 737 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,640 Pick a catastrophe, any catastrophe. 738 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,780 Before the real world did its thing, 739 00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:04,360 she warned about it in her fiction. 740 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,920 It wasn't "this is going to happen without a doubt." 741 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,800 This could happen. 742 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,310 This might happen, so you should be on the watch for it. 743 00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:16,590 What is your relationship with this idea 744 00:32:16,590 --> 00:32:19,750 that you're the prophet of doom, this Cassandra, 745 00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:21,770 the forecaster of dystopia-- 746 00:32:21,770 --> 00:32:23,410 Oh, I think I'm very positive. 747 00:32:23,410 --> 00:32:26,350 I didn't kill everybody off at the end. 748 00:32:26,350 --> 00:32:27,990 Some people do. 749 00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:29,090 These are rare books. 750 00:32:29,090 --> 00:32:31,410 So a lot of them are pretty obscure. 751 00:32:31,410 --> 00:32:33,810 JON WERTHEIM: If Atwood can see around corners, 752 00:32:33,810 --> 00:32:36,970 it's because her visions have historical precedent. 753 00:32:36,970 --> 00:32:39,310 They come rooted in actual events. 754 00:32:39,310 --> 00:32:42,410 At the Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library in Toronto, 755 00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:45,510 Atwood has archived stacks of her research. 756 00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:47,470 That is, the hundreds of News clippings 757 00:32:47,470 --> 00:32:49,710 that substantiate her plots. 758 00:32:49,710 --> 00:32:54,830 So this is folder upon folder of your research 759 00:32:54,830 --> 00:32:55,970 for Handmaid's Tale. 760 00:32:55,970 --> 00:32:57,350 Oh, yeah, lots of it. 761 00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:59,310 JON WERTHEIM: She writes by a strict rule-- 762 00:32:59,310 --> 00:33:01,970 if it didn't happen, somewhere, at some time, 763 00:33:01,970 --> 00:33:04,650 it doesn't make it into the pages of her fiction. 764 00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:06,210 "Women forced to have babies." 765 00:33:06,210 --> 00:33:07,190 MARGARET ATWOOD: Mhm. 766 00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:09,910 Communists are making women have babies. 767 00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:12,470 Persistent non-pregnancy will be considered 768 00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:15,120 a crime against the state. 769 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,870 JON WERTHEIM: It's not all doom and gloom. 770 00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:18,890 Atwood showed us the cover sheet designed 771 00:33:18,890 --> 00:33:21,010 for her first volume of poetry. 772 00:33:21,010 --> 00:33:25,610 She also writes short stories and children's books. 773 00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:27,810 For her new book, a new genre. 774 00:33:27,810 --> 00:33:30,870 Her memoir, Book of Lives, published last November, 775 00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:32,950 takes the full sweep of her life, 776 00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:34,890 starting with a free-range childhood 777 00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:37,330 spent in the deep wilderness of Quebec. 778 00:33:37,330 --> 00:33:39,690 She was homeschooled until the age of 12, 779 00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:43,930 while her father did fieldwork on insects as an entomologist. 780 00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:46,770 You wrote, some families stop for ice cream 781 00:33:46,770 --> 00:33:47,950 on the side of the road. 782 00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:49,350 You stop for infestation. 783 00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:51,310 We stopped for infestations. 784 00:33:51,310 --> 00:33:52,690 And what was that like? 785 00:33:52,690 --> 00:33:55,810 You screeched to a halt. Father would get out 786 00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:59,070 of the car with his tarpaulin and his ax, 787 00:33:59,070 --> 00:34:01,690 and he would go to the infestation. 788 00:34:01,690 --> 00:34:03,850 He would spread the tarp out under the tree 789 00:34:03,850 --> 00:34:05,630 and hit the trunk with an ax. 790 00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:09,350 And then the things would fall out, and he would collect them. 791 00:34:09,350 --> 00:34:11,440 And you're in the backseat thinking what? 792 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:12,060 Oh, no. 793 00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:14,739 We were usually out of the car watching him do it. 794 00:34:14,739 --> 00:34:17,425 JON WERTHEIM: What did you learn watching him go to work? 795 00:34:17,425 --> 00:34:18,800 MARGARET ATWOOD: I think probably 796 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,760 growing up with the biologists makes you 797 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440 quite particular about details. 798 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,060 Because you're not saying, that's a butterfly. 799 00:34:26,060 --> 00:34:28,100 You're saying, what kind of butterfly? 800 00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:30,260 You're not saying, that's a tree. 801 00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:32,920 You usually know what kind of tree. 802 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,159 That's what draws people to reading. 803 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:37,800 JON WERTHEIM: Intent on spinning details into prose 804 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,080 and becoming a writer, Atwood enrolled at Victoria College 805 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,920 at the University of Toronto. 806 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,480 Well, poetry was the big form in Canada in the '60s. 807 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,000 JON WERTHEIM: A young poet, she hit the reading circuit 808 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,739 and performed in student plays and revues here at Hart House, 809 00:34:53,739 --> 00:34:55,620 one of Canada's oldest theaters. 810 00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:56,080 You're in front of an audience? 811 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:56,663 No, I'm not. 812 00:34:56,663 --> 00:34:58,000 I'm just a show-off. 813 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,400 JON WERTHEIM: And when Margaret Atwood wants to show off, 814 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,400 you surrender the stage. 815 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,980 You have to stand over there. 816 00:35:03,980 --> 00:35:06,240 Hold my purse. 817 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,060 JON WERTHEIM: Here's not just any curtsy, 818 00:35:08,060 --> 00:35:12,460 but she informed us the 17th century Jacobian court curtsy 819 00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:14,740 she learned for a college production. 820 00:35:14,740 --> 00:35:17,300 We told you she's a stickler for detail. 821 00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:18,980 How do I respond to that? 822 00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:19,940 Oh, you bow. 823 00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:20,620 Oh. 824 00:35:20,620 --> 00:35:21,460 Thank you. 825 00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:22,680 You remember that? 826 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,252 Why are you so surprised that I remember this? 827 00:35:25,252 --> 00:35:26,960 JON WERTHEIM: Before we left the theater, 828 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,620 Atwood showed us another party trick. 829 00:35:29,620 --> 00:35:31,540 I'm not getting vibes, OK? 830 00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:33,380 You're not getting vibes from me? 831 00:35:33,380 --> 00:35:34,160 No. 832 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,380 We're doing the classic Renaissance hand reading. 833 00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:40,400 JON WERTHEIM: Yes, she reads palms, 834 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,400 another mode for investigation. 835 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,140 People might think that you're just 836 00:35:44,140 --> 00:35:48,240 a very reasonable, rational person, 837 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:51,060 but in fact you have this other-- 838 00:35:51,060 --> 00:35:51,560 Oh, dear. 839 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,160 --this intuition. 840 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,720 So some people stop there, and they're very logical. 841 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:56,540 And that's it. 842 00:35:56,540 --> 00:35:58,300 You are not one of those people. 843 00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,620 And we can see that you will never 844 00:36:00,620 --> 00:36:03,787 be a murderous dictator, for which we are pleased. 845 00:36:03,787 --> 00:36:05,120 Well, I got that going for me. 846 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,220 [LAUGHTER] 847 00:36:07,220 --> 00:36:11,340 Back to our protagonist, when she graduated in 1961, 848 00:36:11,340 --> 00:36:14,400 Canadian writers were encouraged to pursue careers 849 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,160 outside the country. 850 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,780 Give us a sense of the Canadian lit scene 851 00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:19,940 when you were in college. 852 00:36:19,940 --> 00:36:23,680 What Canadian lit scene? 853 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,520 JON WERTHEIM: Still, Atwood stayed 854 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,320 and helped found the country's now-thriving literary 855 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,660 institutions. 856 00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:33,020 Along the way, she met another writer, the late Graham Gibson, 857 00:36:33,020 --> 00:36:35,960 who would become her longtime partner. 858 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,560 So quintessentially Canadian, their courtship 859 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,480 peaked with a canoe trip. 860 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,200 We were both the kinds of people 861 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,120 that if the canoe trip hadn't worked out, 862 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:47,640 that would have been it. 863 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,380 Good barometer for a relationship. 864 00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:49,880 Yeah. 865 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,620 If you can deal with the canoe trip, 866 00:36:51,620 --> 00:36:55,435 you can probably deal with lots of other things, too. 867 00:36:55,435 --> 00:36:56,560 JON WERTHEIM: And they did. 868 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,240 Gibson came to the relationship with some baggage, a, quote, 869 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,720 "undivorced wife" and two kids. 870 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:05,760 In her memoir, Atwood confronts the complications 871 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,470 of the blended family. 872 00:37:07,470 --> 00:37:09,710 Can I ask you to read a bit for us? 873 00:37:09,710 --> 00:37:10,590 MARGARET ATWOOD: Yes. 874 00:37:10,590 --> 00:37:13,590 There are several letters in this book from me 875 00:37:13,590 --> 00:37:15,610 to my inner advice columnist. 876 00:37:15,610 --> 00:37:17,670 Everybody has one. 877 00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:21,590 "Dear inner advice columnist, sorry to bother you." 878 00:37:21,590 --> 00:37:24,230 JON WERTHEIM: Atwood uses the columnist device to confess 879 00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:26,570 that though she and Graham have a daughter of their own, 880 00:37:26,570 --> 00:37:27,955 she wants more children. 881 00:37:27,955 --> 00:37:30,330 MARGARET ATWOOD: "We are back at the farm after Scotland, 882 00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:33,710 and I have brought up the subject of a second child. 883 00:37:33,710 --> 00:37:36,750 I would like one, but Graham has said that a total of three 884 00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:38,270 is enough for him. 885 00:37:38,270 --> 00:37:42,430 I feel deprived, resentful, and disrespected." 886 00:37:42,430 --> 00:37:43,890 JON WERTHEIM: If that sounds harsh, 887 00:37:43,890 --> 00:37:46,210 listen to the columnist's response, 888 00:37:46,210 --> 00:37:47,830 the advice she gave herself. 889 00:37:47,830 --> 00:37:51,070 "Oh, for heaven's sakes, count your blessings. 890 00:37:51,070 --> 00:37:53,710 Some people don't know when they're well off. 891 00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:55,630 Many would give the shirt off their back 892 00:37:55,630 --> 00:37:57,430 to have your luck in men. 893 00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:58,390 Suck it up. 894 00:37:58,390 --> 00:38:00,010 Cherish your child. 895 00:38:00,010 --> 00:38:01,750 Get another cat. 896 00:38:01,750 --> 00:38:05,770 Your inner advice columnist." 897 00:38:05,770 --> 00:38:07,977 You can see she's rather severe. 898 00:38:07,977 --> 00:38:09,810 That's a very get-over-yourself advice you 899 00:38:09,810 --> 00:38:10,490 gave yourself. 900 00:38:10,490 --> 00:38:13,930 Very get-over-yourself advice, but Canadians are pretty 901 00:38:13,930 --> 00:38:15,690 get-over-yourself people. 902 00:38:15,690 --> 00:38:17,970 The Handmaid's Tale! 903 00:38:17,970 --> 00:38:21,490 JON WERTHEIM: Humility aside, Canada's leading literary figure 904 00:38:21,490 --> 00:38:23,650 has become something of a cult figure 905 00:38:23,650 --> 00:38:26,290 and a leading voice on all things Canadian. 906 00:38:26,290 --> 00:38:29,130 We asked her about the recent chill between her country 907 00:38:29,130 --> 00:38:32,250 and the United States as President Trump raises tariffs 908 00:38:32,250 --> 00:38:35,410 and threatens to turn our northern neighbors into a 51st 909 00:38:35,410 --> 00:38:36,250 state. 910 00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:38,490 Atwood says the Canadian response is 911 00:38:38,490 --> 00:38:40,448 best summed up by one phrase. 912 00:38:40,448 --> 00:38:41,990 MARGARET ATWOOD: It's a hockey thing, 913 00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:44,650 and it was this character called Gordie Howe, who 914 00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:47,730 was very revered hockey player. 915 00:38:47,730 --> 00:38:50,690 And "elbows up" is when somebody gets you into the corner, 916 00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:54,090 and you block them by putting your elbow up. 917 00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:56,930 And it means, don't mess with me. 918 00:38:56,930 --> 00:38:59,750 And for those who speak of the 51st state, 919 00:38:59,750 --> 00:39:02,810 I do point out that it wouldn't be just one state. 920 00:39:02,810 --> 00:39:03,890 What do you mean? 921 00:39:03,890 --> 00:39:05,182 MARGARET ATWOOD: It's very big. 922 00:39:05,182 --> 00:39:07,310 You can't make the whole thing just one state. 923 00:39:07,310 --> 00:39:10,083 And, anyway, Quebec would never stand for it. 924 00:39:10,083 --> 00:39:11,750 You think you're going to make them part 925 00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:14,090 of a unilingual big entity? 926 00:39:14,090 --> 00:39:15,670 Think again. 927 00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:17,990 JON WERTHEIM: Atwood is a student of government power 928 00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:19,910 and the overreaches of both. 929 00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:21,630 She wrote much of The Handmaid's Tale 930 00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:25,150 on a rented typewriter in 1984 West Berlin. 931 00:39:25,150 --> 00:39:28,790 She recalls hearing sonic booms from the other side of the wall. 932 00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:30,770 In her ventures to the Eastern Bloc, 933 00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:32,950 she witnessed policing, paranoia, 934 00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:34,790 and the absence of freedom. 935 00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:36,750 In her memoir, too, she addresses 936 00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:38,570 the erosion of democracy. 937 00:39:38,570 --> 00:39:40,990 You say, "The overriding ordinary civil Liberties is one 938 00:39:40,990 --> 00:39:44,030 of the signposts on the road to dictatorship." 939 00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:46,090 Do you see the US on that road right now? 940 00:39:46,090 --> 00:39:50,430 I don't think I would be wrong if I said it's concerning. 941 00:39:50,430 --> 00:39:54,270 There are certain things that totalitarian coups always do. 942 00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:55,070 Like what? 943 00:39:55,070 --> 00:39:56,653 MARGARET ATWOOD: One of them is trying 944 00:39:56,653 --> 00:39:58,430 to get control of the media. 945 00:39:58,430 --> 00:40:02,700 But the other thing is making the judicial arm 946 00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:05,340 part of the executive. 947 00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:07,620 In other words, judges just do what 948 00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:09,820 the chief guide tells them to. 949 00:40:09,820 --> 00:40:12,300 If you're saying the signposts, the signifiers 950 00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:14,860 of totalitarian society are-- 951 00:40:14,860 --> 00:40:18,897 There are some warning lights flashing, for sure. 952 00:40:18,897 --> 00:40:20,480 JON WERTHEIM: Amid the warning lights, 953 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,320 a series based on The Testaments, 954 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,160 her sequel to The Handmaid's Tale, 955 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,700 began streaming on Hulu this year. 956 00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:28,420 But just when you think you can predict 957 00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:31,740 on which side of the political divide Atwood falls, 958 00:40:31,740 --> 00:40:34,380 she confounds by saying something like this. 959 00:40:34,380 --> 00:40:36,020 Just for the record, I've always 960 00:40:36,020 --> 00:40:39,440 been attacked more from the left than I have from the right. 961 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,260 Why is that? 962 00:40:40,260 --> 00:40:44,220 Well, I think the right thinks I'm irrelevant. 963 00:40:44,220 --> 00:40:46,900 And the left thinks that I should have been preaching 964 00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:49,940 their sermon, whatever it may happen to be, 965 00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:53,340 and that I am therefore a traitor for not having done that 966 00:40:53,340 --> 00:40:55,000 which they themselves would do. 967 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,540 And what's your response to that? 968 00:40:56,540 --> 00:41:00,260 It's unprintable. 969 00:41:00,260 --> 00:41:01,940 It involves a finger. 970 00:41:01,940 --> 00:41:03,700 [CHUCKLES] 971 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,540 Do I see a little blush? 972 00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:07,680 Do I see a little bit of a blush? 973 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,240 JON WERTHEIM: She may turn us red, 974 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:11,480 she did not turn us to stone. 975 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080 I'm paraphrasing here, but in your memoir, 976 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,200 you say you sometimes cut this Medusa-like figure 977 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,220 with a Medusa-like stare with interviewers. 978 00:41:19,220 --> 00:41:21,360 I feel like we're doing OK. 979 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,020 The earlier me. 980 00:41:24,020 --> 00:41:26,820 Now I'm a nice old lady, so you don't have to be worried. 981 00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:27,880 Why the pivot? 982 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,320 I got older. 983 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:32,840 I became a blonde. 984 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,940 This was my way of saying I enjoyed this conversation. 985 00:41:35,940 --> 00:41:37,960 Oh, is that your way of saying it? 986 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,700 So why aren't you a scary old witch? 987 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,237 Is that your way of saying it? 988 00:41:43,237 --> 00:41:45,145 [CLOCK TICKING] 989 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,540 I'm Jon Wertheim. 990 00:41:52,540 --> 00:41:56,360 We'll be back next week with another edition of 60 Minutes. 991 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,670 ANNOUNCER: Go to the ends of the Earth. 992 00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:02,918 Half a world away. 993 00:42:02,918 --> 00:42:04,210 ANNOUNCER: Reach for the stars. 994 00:42:04,210 --> 00:42:06,310 If I take time to think, they might go get Brad. 995 00:42:06,310 --> 00:42:09,710 ANNOUNCER: On CBS Sunday Morning. 996 00:42:09,710 --> 00:42:11,430 (SINGING) It's a good time. 997 00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:12,390 Join us. 998 00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:14,090 Because we think what, Nate? 999 00:42:14,090 --> 00:42:16,450 There's no better way to start your day. 1000 00:42:16,450 --> 00:42:17,330 What he said. 1001 00:42:19,870 --> 00:42:21,050 I'm Tony Dokoupil. 1002 00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:23,110 The CBS Evening Newsis the story 1003 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:25,290 of America, one day at a time. 1004 00:42:25,290 --> 00:42:25,930 I'm Tony. 1005 00:42:25,930 --> 00:42:28,070 While we cover a lot of ground, we also 1006 00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:29,930 stick to the basics-- what's real. 1007 00:42:29,930 --> 00:42:31,010 Do you ever get scared? 1008 00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:31,350 Yeah. 1009 00:42:31,350 --> 00:42:32,770 TONY DOKOUPIL: --and what's important. 1010 00:42:32,770 --> 00:42:35,312 I'm just asking you why you're here and what your message is. 1011 00:42:35,312 --> 00:42:38,210 Success for us is not how much we pack into a show, 1012 00:42:38,210 --> 00:42:39,705 but how much you take away from it. 1013 00:42:39,705 --> 00:42:41,830 And we'll always end with the good stuff, something 1014 00:42:41,830 --> 00:42:43,590 to remind you that there's a lot of life 1015 00:42:43,590 --> 00:42:45,450 out there beyond the headlines. 1016 00:42:45,450 --> 00:42:46,430 So join me. 1017 00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:48,890 This is the CBS Evening News. 1018 00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:56,440 [CLOCK TICKING]