1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,326 [AUDIO LOGO] 2 00:00:05,681 --> 00:00:07,400 LESLIE STAHL: Last year's collision 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,720 of a passenger jet and Army helicopter 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,080 in Washington, DC killed 67 people. 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,920 For the first time, you will hear 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,640 from an air traffic controller who worked inside the tower. 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,840 Was there pressure to get more planes in and out? 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,120 And what we discovered about continuing problems 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:26,520 at that airport. 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:32,820 Why do we always have to wait until people die to take action? 11 00:00:32,820 --> 00:00:34,820 [AUDIO LOGO] 12 00:00:34,820 --> 00:00:36,760 LESLIE STAHL: Forget everything you 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,200 think you know about warfare. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,800 The traditional front line in Ukraine has expanded 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,920 to a 10-mile-wide swath, where anyone spotted by a drone can be 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:49,100 hunted down. 17 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:49,960 [GUN FIRE] 18 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:50,680 [EXPLOSION] 19 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,960 Tonight, lessons from Ukraine's kill zone. 20 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,060 Necessity is the mother of invention. 21 00:00:57,060 --> 00:00:58,715 [AUDIO LOGO] 22 00:00:58,715 --> 00:01:00,280 Excellent, Scott. 23 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,400 That's really good. 24 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,340 SCOTT PELLEY: Nothing could prepare us 25 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:08,340 for the majesty of the largest cave passage on Earth. 26 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:11,060 Skyscrapers would fit in here. 27 00:01:11,060 --> 00:01:14,380 A 747 could fly through. 28 00:01:14,380 --> 00:01:17,580 Maybe most remarkable, all of this 29 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:20,512 was discovered only recently. 30 00:01:20,512 --> 00:01:22,220 And there aren't a lot of places on Earth 31 00:01:22,220 --> 00:01:24,440 that you can discover for the very first time. 32 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,680 No, you have to look pretty hard for them. 33 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,086 [AUDIO LOGO] 34 00:01:28,086 --> 00:01:30,160 I'm Leslie Stahl. 35 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:31,400 I'm Bill Whitaker. 36 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:32,580 I'm Anderson Cooper. 37 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:34,120 I'm Sharyn Alfonsi. 38 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:35,400 I'm Jon Wertheim. 39 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:36,700 I'm Cecilia Vega. 40 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:38,060 I'm Scott Pelley. 41 00:01:38,060 --> 00:01:39,160 Those stories. 42 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,260 And in our last minute, a Final Four legend 43 00:01:43,260 --> 00:01:48,460 has a game plan for America, Coach Mike Krzyzewski, tonight 44 00:01:48,460 --> 00:01:50,000 on 60 Minutes. 45 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,416 [AUDIO LOGO] 46 00:01:57,304 --> 00:02:01,680 It was a week of chaos at airports across the country. 47 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,360 Gridlock in Washington left TSA workers without pay, 48 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,400 triggering four-hour security lines 49 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,120 in some of the nation's busiest airports. 50 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,240 Last Sunday, a commercial jet crashed into a fire truck while 51 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,680 landing on a runway at New York's LaGuardia Airport. 52 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,680 Dozens were injured, and two pilots were killed. 53 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,320 Authorities are investigating, but the air traffic controller 54 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,200 on duty said they were dealing with an earlier emergency, 55 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,760 and soon after the accident said, I messed up. 56 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,080 It is a chilling reminder of just how thin our aviation 57 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,840 system is stretched. 58 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,880 Last year, American Airlines flight 5342 59 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,960 and an Army helicopter collided over the Potomac River near DC-- 60 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,560 the deadliest aviation disaster in almost a quarter century. 61 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,760 Tonight, you will hear from an air traffic controller 62 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,640 who was inside the tower. 63 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:57,380 The day of that collision. 64 00:02:57,380 --> 00:02:58,520 She tells us why. 65 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,220 Controllers at Washington's busiest airport 66 00:03:01,220 --> 00:03:03,980 have been warning of danger for years. 67 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:07,340 It is a story of a system pushed to the breaking point 68 00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:11,460 and the shattered families left to pick up the pieces. 69 00:03:11,460 --> 00:03:13,540 In southern Maryland, seven widows 70 00:03:13,540 --> 00:03:16,580 whose husbands were on flight 5342 71 00:03:16,580 --> 00:03:20,620 agreed to share their story together for the first time. 72 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:23,780 The men, all work buddies, met up with friends in Kansas 73 00:03:23,780 --> 00:03:25,460 for a week of duck hunting. 74 00:03:25,460 --> 00:03:29,020 The women shared these photos with us and the excitement 75 00:03:29,020 --> 00:03:31,620 their husbands felt leading up to the trip. 76 00:03:31,620 --> 00:03:33,332 Alex got home from work, and he was 77 00:03:33,332 --> 00:03:35,540 like, before you say anything, it's already paid for. 78 00:03:35,540 --> 00:03:36,260 [LAUGHTER] 79 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:37,940 And I was like, when do you leave? 80 00:03:37,940 --> 00:03:40,080 There was no asking any more questions. 81 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:41,920 He was so excited to go. 82 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,360 It literally looked like Christmas morning in his face. 83 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,300 SHARYN ALFONSI: Kayla Huffman's husband, Alex, 84 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:49,620 posed with the crew and their trophies. 85 00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:53,440 Bridget Johnson was married to Steve for 19 years. 86 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,800 Kylie Pitcher's husband, Jesse, owned a plumbing company. 87 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,480 Ashley Stovall's husband, Mikey, was a steamfitter, so 88 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,750 was Charlie, Heather McDaniel's husband. 89 00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:05,000 HEATHER MCDANIEL: I met Charlie on the softball field. 90 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,360 And he basically, from that day, always said, 91 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,080 I knew I was going to marry that girl. 92 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,163 Because you were that good of a softball player? 93 00:04:11,163 --> 00:04:12,340 Well, that, too, yes. 94 00:04:12,340 --> 00:04:12,840 [LAUGHTER] 95 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:14,337 I gave him a run for his money. 96 00:04:14,337 --> 00:04:16,420 SHARYN ALFONSI: When the hunting and fun was over, 97 00:04:16,420 --> 00:04:18,279 the men headed to the airport. 98 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,420 Sarah Boyd's husband, John, checked in from the plane. 99 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:24,140 SARAH BOYD: John had texted me when he first boarded and said, 100 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:25,780 "boarded, Bourbon in hand." 101 00:04:25,780 --> 00:04:26,480 [LAUGHTER] 102 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,200 And then right before they landed, he said, 103 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,660 "about to land this bird." 104 00:04:30,660 --> 00:04:33,040 SHARYN ALFONSI: Jill Clagett was tucked into bed 105 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,600 with her young daughters, waiting for her husband 106 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,480 Tommy when the phone rang. 107 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,520 And then I kind of slid out of the bed not to wake them up. 108 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,560 And I turned on the TV, and I remember just 109 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,160 seeing the explosion. 110 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:48,660 DISPATCH. 111 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:49,420 Fire command. 112 00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:52,020 The accident happened in the river. 113 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:54,020 SHARYN ALFONSI: Families raced to the airport 114 00:04:54,020 --> 00:04:56,580 as divers searched the icy Potomac. 115 00:04:56,580 --> 00:05:00,080 By morning, they were told the rescue mission was over. 116 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,300 I literally screamed, what am I going to do? 117 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:06,260 I got to the point where his friends were calling me at 5:00 118 00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:06,980 in the morning. 119 00:05:06,980 --> 00:05:08,460 And they were like, is he OK? 120 00:05:08,460 --> 00:05:08,960 Is he OK? 121 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,460 I said, no, he's dead. 122 00:05:10,460 --> 00:05:12,020 He's gone. 123 00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:13,720 And it's no longer a rescue. 124 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,383 It's a recovery, which means there's no survivors, none. 125 00:05:18,383 --> 00:05:20,800 SHARYN ALFONSI: As the wreckage was pulled from the river, 126 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,340 federal investigators began a year-long forensic autopsy 127 00:05:24,340 --> 00:05:25,740 of the collision. 128 00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:28,820 Video shows the American Airlines jet, seen here 129 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:32,120 on the right of your screen, pulled up just before it 130 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,570 and the Army helicopter collided. 131 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:36,320 There were obvious cracks in the system. 132 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,960 There were obvious holes. 133 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,460 SHARYN ALFONSI: Emily Hanoka says 134 00:05:39,460 --> 00:05:41,460 she saw those holes during her time 135 00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:44,620 as an air traffic controller at Ronald Reagan Washington 136 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:49,360 National Airport, commonly known by its airport code, DCA. 137 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,200 Her shift in the control tower ended a few hours 138 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,040 before the fatal crash. 139 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,680 She is speaking for the first time about the stress conditions 140 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,940 that she believes set the stage for tragedy. 141 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:02,960 So you had front line controllers 142 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,720 ringing that bell for years and years saying, this is not safe. 143 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,120 This cannot continue. 144 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,100 Please change this, and that didn't happen. 145 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:13,860 SHARYN ALFONSI: For more than a decade, 146 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:16,280 air traffic controllers warned the Federal Aviation 147 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:20,640 administration that the tempo of passenger jets and beehive 148 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,560 of army, police, and hospital helicopters near DCA 149 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,040 was a recipe for disaster. 150 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,920 The NTSB confirms between 2021 and 2024, 151 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,720 85 near-midair collisions between helicopters 152 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,560 and commercial aircraft at DCA were reported to the FAA. 153 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,120 And 60 Minuteshas obtained documents that reveal just one 154 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,640 day before last year's fatal crash, 155 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,420 two separate passenger jets had to take sudden action 156 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:52,480 to avoid colliding with Army helicopters. 157 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,580 EMILY HANOKA: The warning signs were all there. 158 00:06:54,580 --> 00:06:57,200 Controllers formed local safety councils. 159 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,680 And every time that a controller made these safety reports, 160 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,780 another controller was compiling data 161 00:07:03,780 --> 00:07:06,340 to back up the recommendation. 162 00:07:06,340 --> 00:07:07,940 And many recommendations were made, 163 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:10,580 and they never went too far. 164 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:12,900 SHARYN ALFONSI: DCA is unique-- it's 165 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:16,020 owned by the federal government, and the number of daily flights 166 00:07:16,020 --> 00:07:18,940 is ultimately determined by Congress. 167 00:07:18,940 --> 00:07:22,540 Since 2000, lawmakers added at least 50 flights 168 00:07:22,540 --> 00:07:28,020 to the already congested airport and approved another 10 in 2024. 169 00:07:28,020 --> 00:07:30,100 EMILY HANOKA: Some hours are overloaded 170 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:33,020 to the point where it's over the capacity 171 00:07:33,020 --> 00:07:34,740 that the airport can handle. 172 00:07:34,740 --> 00:07:37,320 Was there pressure to get more planes in and out? 173 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,780 Yeah, there was definitely a pressure. 174 00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:43,780 If you do not move planes, you will gridlock the airport. 175 00:07:43,780 --> 00:07:47,520 SHARYN ALFONSI: DCA moves 25 million passengers a year, 176 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,720 10 million more than its intended capacity. 177 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,760 Its location near the heart of DC 178 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,640 makes it popular but also problematic. 179 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,680 Restricted airspace near the airport 180 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,920 shields the White House, the US Capitol, and other government 181 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:02,680 buildings. 182 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,520 For years, funneling planes and helicopters 183 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,200 into the same narrow corridor over the Potomac. 184 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,240 And Hanoka showed us on her map of the airspace 185 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,880 why the tarmac is just as tricky. 186 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,880 There are only three short runways at DCA, 187 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,920 and none are parallel. 188 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:26,600 And so if a plane's coming in because these runways intersect, 189 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,017 everything is connected. 190 00:08:28,017 --> 00:08:29,100 Everything is connected. 191 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:32,360 There is no independent operation at DCA. 192 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,360 SHARYN ALFONSI: DCA's main runway, runway one, 193 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,480 is the busiest in the country with over 800 flights a day, 194 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,240 roughly one every minute. 195 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,780 To make it work, Hanoka says air traffic controllers often relied 196 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:48,022 on what they called a squeeze play. 197 00:08:48,022 --> 00:08:49,980 EMILY HANOKA: A squeeze play is when everything 198 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:53,500 is dependent on an aircraft rolling, an aircraft slowing, 199 00:08:53,500 --> 00:08:56,700 and you know it's going to be a very close operation. 200 00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:59,020 So they're really just one's going up 201 00:08:59,020 --> 00:09:00,900 and one's going in at the same time? 202 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:03,040 And that is a really common operation. 203 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,780 SHARYN ALFONSI: Two airplanes on one runway 204 00:09:05,780 --> 00:09:08,060 within seconds of each other. 205 00:09:08,060 --> 00:09:10,060 Is that normal at other airports? 206 00:09:10,060 --> 00:09:10,820 EMILY HANOKA: No. 207 00:09:10,820 --> 00:09:13,400 So you'll get new controllers come in. 208 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,485 So they've transferred from other facilities, 209 00:09:15,485 --> 00:09:16,860 and they'll look at the operation 210 00:09:16,860 --> 00:09:18,800 and say, absolutely not. 211 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,760 And they'll withdraw from training. 212 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,840 When I was there, it was about 50%. 213 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,600 50%? 214 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,225 About half of the people that walked in the building to train 215 00:09:26,225 --> 00:09:27,660 would say, absolutely not. 216 00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:31,020 SHARYN ALFONSI: A year after the crash, nearly one third 217 00:09:31,020 --> 00:09:34,835 of the controller positions in the DCA tower are unfilled. 218 00:09:34,835 --> 00:09:36,460 EMILY HANOKA: It was surprising walking 219 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:41,580 into that work environment how close aircraft were. 220 00:09:41,580 --> 00:09:43,740 SHARYN ALFONSI: It was just kind of accepted there? 221 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:44,280 EMILY HANOKA: Yeah. 222 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,880 This is what has to happen in order 223 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,560 to make this airspace work, and it did work. 224 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:50,720 It worked until it didn't. 225 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,720 SHARYN ALFONSI: In January, the NTSB 226 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,200 determined the midair collision of Flight 5342 227 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,880 and the Black Hawk helicopter was preventable. 228 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:04,720 In its 388-page page report, investigators didn't identify 229 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,820 a single cause of the accident. 230 00:10:06,820 --> 00:10:09,900 Rather, they called out systemic failures, 231 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,840 including ignored warning signs about risks 232 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,840 and a helicopter route that was designed 233 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,700 so poorly that in some parts of the sky, 234 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:21,520 it allowed for just 75 feet of vertical separation 235 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,400 between helicopters and passenger jets. 236 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,260 TIM LILLEY: I flew these routes hundreds of times. 237 00:10:27,260 --> 00:10:29,300 SHARYN ALFONSI: During his 20 years in the Army, 238 00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:32,440 Tim Lilley flew Black Hawk helicopters often 239 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,440 down the Potomac River near DCA. 240 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,240 The night of the crash, investigators 241 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,100 say the Black Hawk crew was relying on what's 242 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:42,220 called visual separation. 243 00:10:42,220 --> 00:10:44,460 Literally, just looking out the window 244 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:46,960 to avoid nearby passenger jets. 245 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,940 TIM LILLEY: To apply visual separation, 246 00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:53,078 the pilot has to positively identify the other aircraft. 247 00:10:53,078 --> 00:10:55,120 And say, that's the plane you're talking about? 248 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,000 That's the plane. 249 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,420 And he has to maintain constant surveillance 250 00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:00,380 on that aircraft, which is impossible 251 00:11:00,380 --> 00:11:01,600 under these conditions. 252 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,320 SHARYN ALFONSI: Impossible, he says, 253 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,740 because the crew was likely wearing night vision 254 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:10,143 goggles, which Lilley says limit what a pilot can see. 255 00:11:10,143 --> 00:11:11,560 Help people out with this at home, 256 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:13,340 because I think we've all watched enough movies where 257 00:11:13,340 --> 00:11:15,215 you see somebody put on night vision goggles, 258 00:11:15,215 --> 00:11:16,700 and they can see everything. 259 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:18,320 But that's not the case. 260 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,860 Especially under these conditions, that's not the case. 261 00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:22,900 So when you have a lot of bright lights 262 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:26,040 like you do in Washington DC area, 263 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,047 everything gets washed out through the goggles. 264 00:11:28,047 --> 00:11:30,380 PILOT: Air Carrier One to Washington star altimeter, two 265 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:31,960 niner niner 0. 266 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,500 SHARYN ALFONSI: The NTSB built this simulation 267 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:37,740 to show what those Black Hawk pilots saw or, rather, 268 00:11:37,740 --> 00:11:39,200 what they couldn't see. 269 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,040 That green circle indicates the pilot's view 270 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,160 wearing night vision goggles. 271 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,200 That purple circle is the American Airlines jet 272 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,640 they were supposed to be looking out for. 273 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,080 You can see how it's hard to distinguish between an airliner 274 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,760 and ground lights. 275 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,140 Night vision goggles also limit peripheral vision, 276 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:00,120 so the crew on a training mission 277 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,260 didn't see flight 5342 until it was too late. 278 00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:08,340 TIM LILLEY: So the proper way to fly that is constantly scanning, 279 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:11,520 always moving your head side to side because your field of view 280 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,060 is limited with goggles. 281 00:12:13,060 --> 00:12:14,520 But why is that kind of training 282 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,400 happening in this airspace where it's so busy? 283 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,580 The military would say, this is where our mission is. 284 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:21,980 This is where we need to train. 285 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:23,700 And to some degree, I agree with that. 286 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:26,920 But those training environments, they 287 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,140 should be nowhere near commercial airliners, right? 288 00:12:30,140 --> 00:12:32,520 SHARYN ALFONSI: Tim Lilley is now advocating for changes 289 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,360 to make the skies safer. 290 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,500 His son, Sam, shared his love of aviation. 291 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:39,520 And in the cruelest twist of fate, 292 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,220 was the first officer on American Airlines flight 5342, 293 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:47,220 one of the 67 killed in the crash. 294 00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:49,260 TIM LILLEY: And I never thought to warn him 295 00:12:49,260 --> 00:12:52,220 about the helicopters because I just 296 00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:56,940 didn't realize how far the safety margins had slipped 297 00:12:56,940 --> 00:12:59,220 since I had flown those routes. 298 00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:05,640 This was a system that failed the people on the aircraft, 299 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,480 on the helicopter, in the air traffic control tower. 300 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,460 SHARYN ALFONSI: Jennifer Homendy is the chairwoman of the NTSB. 301 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,220 After a yearlong investigation, the agency 302 00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:18,740 suggested 50 safety recommendations 303 00:13:18,740 --> 00:13:21,260 to prevent similar accidents. 304 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:23,760 If everybody knows those close calls are dangerous, 305 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,380 then why didn't anybody step in and say, we 306 00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:28,080 have to lighten the load here? 307 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,580 The air traffic control tower the entire time was saying, 308 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:36,420 we have a real safety problem here, and nobody was listening. 309 00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:38,480 It was like somebody was asleep at the switch 310 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,020 or didn't want to act. 311 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:44,212 It is a bureaucratic nightmare. 312 00:13:44,212 --> 00:13:46,460 SHARYN ALFONSI: Immediately after the accident, 313 00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:50,320 the FAA moved some helicopter routes away from DCA 314 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,280 and ended the use of visual separation. 315 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,920 Earlier this month, it expanded that ban to busy airports 316 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,520 across the country. 317 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,120 In a statement to 60 Minutes, Transportation Secretary Sean 318 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,740 Duffy said he's helped secure more than $12 billion to, quote, 319 00:14:06,740 --> 00:14:11,760 "aggressively overhaul our air traffic control system." 320 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,120 But the problems at DCA continue. 321 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,960 Since the crash, 60 Minutes has learned at least four 322 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,660 times aircraft and helicopters have gotten too close, 323 00:14:20,660 --> 00:14:22,420 triggering safety reports. 324 00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:26,800 It is unconscionable that we are having to be here right now. 325 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,400 SHARYN ALFONSI: Some of the families of Flight 5342 326 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,740 are now fixtures on Capitol Hill, 327 00:14:31,740 --> 00:14:34,500 advocating for aircraft surveillance technology that 328 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:36,740 might have saved their loved ones. 329 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:41,180 Jennifer Homendy says if the FAA and lawmakers don't move quickly 330 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:43,900 on safety legislation, they are clearing 331 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:46,780 the path for another disaster. 332 00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:49,700 I imagine most of them fly in and out of DCA. 333 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:50,382 They do. 334 00:14:50,382 --> 00:14:52,340 So what would you say if they were listening? 335 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:57,100 I'd say, why do we always have to wait until people 336 00:14:57,100 --> 00:14:59,320 die to take action? 337 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,652 [AUDIO LOGO] 338 00:15:06,428 --> 00:15:11,400 Now, Holly Williams on assignment for 60 Minutes. 339 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,060 HOLLY WILLIAMS: When America went to war with Iran 340 00:15:14,060 --> 00:15:17,180 last month, the US military faced an enemy 341 00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:21,180 using mass-produced drones to deadly effect. 342 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:24,740 The same weapons have been used for years in Ukraine, 343 00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:27,140 some of them supplied by Iran to Russia. 344 00:15:27,140 --> 00:15:30,120 Unmanned and remotely controlled, 345 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,840 drones have transformed the Ukrainian battlefield. 346 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,320 They're estimated to inflict around 80% of combat casualties 347 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,320 on both sides. 348 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,860 The technology is nothing short of revolutionary, 349 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:47,340 and it's evolving rapidly, as we discovered, 350 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:49,440 to adapt to the new era. 351 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,040 The US military is learning lessons from Ukraine. 352 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,356 [DRONE BUZZING] 353 00:15:57,856 --> 00:16:01,180 [GUN FIRE] 354 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,420 Forget everything you think you know about warfare. 355 00:16:05,420 --> 00:16:08,620 [GUN FIRE] 356 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280 The traditional frontline in Ukraine has expanded 357 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,780 to a roughly 10-mile-wide strip called the kill zone. 358 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,000 Anyone who sets foot there can be spotted by a drone operator 359 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,580 and hunted down. 360 00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:27,544 [GUN FIRE] 361 00:16:27,544 --> 00:16:28,520 [EXPLOSION] 362 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:29,500 [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] 363 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:31,167 HOLLY WILLIAMS: This was a narrow escape 364 00:16:31,167 --> 00:16:35,180 for some Ukrainian soldiers. 365 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:38,460 They call these Frankenstein tanks, 366 00:16:38,460 --> 00:16:44,380 retrofitted with cages and mesh to deflect drone strikes. 367 00:16:44,380 --> 00:16:48,060 Netting covers roads close to the front, 368 00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:52,980 designed to catch them before they hit their target. 369 00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:56,060 To evade interference from electronic jammers, 370 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:58,460 both militaries launched drones attached 371 00:16:58,460 --> 00:17:02,660 to miles-long spools of fiber optic wire, 372 00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:07,060 leaving behind a digital spider's web. 373 00:17:07,060 --> 00:17:10,579 But the drones are not just in the air. 374 00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:11,980 Continuously innovating. 375 00:17:11,980 --> 00:17:12,480 Yes. 376 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,780 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Beside a frozen lake, Ukraine's security service 377 00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:19,420 took us to see one of their most treasured weapons. 378 00:17:19,420 --> 00:17:21,680 I mean, it looks a bit like a fishing boat scout. 379 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,079 That's an outboard motor? 380 00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:24,280 Yeah, yeah. 381 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,800 HOLLY WILLIAMS: It's a sea drone developed 382 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,080 in Ukraine called Sea Baby. 383 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,640 We're protecting this operator's identity 384 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,160 because he's a target for Russian assassination. 385 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,620 What's the payload on this? 386 00:17:37,620 --> 00:17:40,780 It can really take 2,000 kilograms. 387 00:17:40,780 --> 00:17:44,480 2,000 kilos of explosives, is that enough to take out 388 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,660 a Russian warship? 389 00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:46,160 Yes. 390 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,660 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Produced for around $300,000. 391 00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:52,640 Ukrainian sea drones have destroyed warships 392 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,120 that cost tens of millions. 393 00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:58,000 Ukraine says it's used them to sink or disable 394 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,200 11 Russian vessels. 395 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,520 Which one is more useful, a warship or a sea 396 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:05,700 drone like the Sea Baby? 397 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:06,533 OPERATOR: Sea drone. 398 00:18:06,533 --> 00:18:09,520 I think it's really hard to destroy these drones 399 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,080 because they are smaller. 400 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,360 That's why to have a 10 ships like this is 401 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,680 much better than one big one. 402 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:17,320 Wow. 403 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,520 To be clear, you're saying you'd rather have 404 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,260 10 sea drones than a warship? 405 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:23,140 Yeah. 406 00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:25,780 Necessity is the mother of invention. 407 00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:28,420 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Oleksandr Kamyshin started out the war 408 00:18:28,420 --> 00:18:32,380 as the CEO of Ukraine's railways. 409 00:18:32,380 --> 00:18:35,900 He was so good at his job, helping millions of Ukrainians 410 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:39,380 to evacuate, that President Volodymyr Zelenskyy recruited 411 00:18:39,380 --> 00:18:43,460 him to become the architect of Ukraine's drone program. 412 00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:45,740 Cheap, fast, efficient. 413 00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:47,780 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Kamyshin told us he helped boost 414 00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:54,660 Ukraine's production from 2,000 drones a year to four million. 415 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:58,580 For the outnumbered Ukrainians, the inexpensive new technology 416 00:18:58,580 --> 00:19:01,360 has allowed them to level the battlefield. 417 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:05,560 It's a data-driven war with big numbers. 418 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:06,980 It's a numbers game. 419 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:09,420 What do you mean by a numbers game? 420 00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:11,860 We have to count everything. 421 00:19:11,860 --> 00:19:15,940 We have to count number of drones we use, 422 00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:20,120 efficiency of each of them, cost to kill for every Russian. 423 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,060 And what is the cost of killing every Russian? 424 00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:25,640 You would be surprised, but the cost of killing every 425 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,680 Russian is less than $1,000 now. 426 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,220 That's why they sent so many people to die on the front line. 427 00:19:33,220 --> 00:19:34,840 They don't count them. 428 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,600 They don't value them. 429 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,640 Would you want to be in Vladimir Putin's shoes 430 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:39,520 right now? 431 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,080 No. 432 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,280 Strategically, he lost. 433 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:50,040 He wanted us to become weaker, became much stronger. 434 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,440 HOLLY WILLIAMS: 10 retired US generals 435 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,000 told us they agree that Russia isn't winning the war, 436 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,840 despite its territorial gains. 437 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,780 Some cautioned that Ukraine isn't winning either. 438 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,760 But with the help of drones, has managed to draw Russia 439 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,840 into a stalemate. 440 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,020 This is like a kind of obstacle course for drones. 441 00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:18,320 Ukraine's military has set up drone training academies 442 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,320 to teach the new technology-- 443 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:21,640 Patience and practice. 444 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:22,140 Yes. 445 00:20:22,140 --> 00:20:23,680 I mean, practice makes perfect. 446 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:24,280 Am I right? 447 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:25,900 HOLLY WILLIAMS: --and the rapid shifts 448 00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:28,580 in tactics that come with it. 449 00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:32,640 This ground drone, mounted with a 50-caliber machine gun, 450 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,100 recently held off a Russian attack single-handedly for 45 451 00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:38,660 days straight. 452 00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:41,260 In January, three Russian soldiers 453 00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:44,620 surrendered to a similar robotic drone. 454 00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:46,180 ROMAN TKACHENKO: Our main idea, if we 455 00:20:46,180 --> 00:20:49,700 can send the robot and to not risk the human life. 456 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,380 So the first, it's a human life is the most important. 457 00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:56,420 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Ukraine says it makes more than 95% 458 00:20:56,420 --> 00:20:59,900 of its own military drones, harnessing talent 459 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,860 from some unusual places. 460 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:06,660 Roman Tkachenko is a former brewery engineer 461 00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:09,660 who founded a company called Tencor and developed 462 00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:13,180 these remote controlled armored evacuation drones 463 00:21:13,180 --> 00:21:16,580 to transport wounded soldiers. 464 00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:20,040 They gave us a demonstration at a military training ground 465 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,640 and claimed the drones have saved hundreds of lives. 466 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,795 How do you figure out what your next design needs to be? 467 00:21:26,795 --> 00:21:28,920 ROMAN TKACHENKO: We are working with the end users. 468 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,840 HOLLY WILLIAMS: End users, that means the soldiers who 469 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:31,780 are on the front line. 470 00:21:31,780 --> 00:21:32,220 ROMAN TKACHENKO: Yeah. 471 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:33,762 HOLLY WILLIAMS: The soldiers said, we 472 00:21:33,762 --> 00:21:36,040 need a drone to do evacuations. 473 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:36,980 And you built it. 474 00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:37,720 Yep. 475 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,320 That's how it works in Ukraine. 476 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,360 We are designing for soldiers. 477 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:45,160 HOLLY WILLIAMS: The same drone base can be adapted to mount 478 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,400 a 40-millimeter grenade launcher, 479 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,920 controlled from a bunker, which could be hundreds of miles away. 480 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,040 When it comes to drones, how quickly 481 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,800 is the technology changing? 482 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,120 Innovation cycle is roughly one week. 483 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,400 It means from the point you sent a drone to the front line, 484 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,120 get the feedback, change something, and get 485 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,540 the new version, it could be as short as one week. 486 00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:14,940 Are the Russians also innovating? 487 00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:17,490 Yes, definitely. 488 00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:18,710 We have to admit it. 489 00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:20,550 Who has the edge? 490 00:22:20,550 --> 00:22:24,790 At this point, I would say that's equilibrium. 491 00:22:24,790 --> 00:22:27,630 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Equilibrium in a drone arms race. 492 00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:31,690 And both sides will take any help they can get. 493 00:22:31,690 --> 00:22:34,690 Air Logics makes aerial surveillance drones 494 00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:37,770 for the Ukrainian military-- their production spread 495 00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:41,010 across more than 20 sites to minimize risk 496 00:22:41,010 --> 00:22:44,850 because they've already been bombed twice by Russia. 497 00:22:44,850 --> 00:22:48,290 It's a dangerous business, but the company recently 498 00:22:48,290 --> 00:22:51,810 secured over $1 million from an American investment 499 00:22:51,810 --> 00:22:56,970 fund that specializes in Ukrainian drone technology. 500 00:22:56,970 --> 00:23:01,770 It's run by two former US Marines, William McNulty, who 501 00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:04,210 has a background in humanitarian work, 502 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:08,370 and Lenore Caraffa, who built a career in finance after leaving 503 00:23:08,370 --> 00:23:09,810 the military. 504 00:23:09,810 --> 00:23:13,630 They told us their investors are wealthy individuals who 505 00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:15,150 support Ukraine. 506 00:23:15,150 --> 00:23:17,510 I worked at one or two jobs after the military 507 00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:20,190 that were more about the money than anything else. 508 00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:21,617 That is not my main motivation. 509 00:23:21,617 --> 00:23:23,450 You didn't join the Marines for the money? 510 00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:25,270 [LAUGHS] 511 00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:26,650 What's your main motivation? 512 00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:30,590 Service, patriotism, democracy, mission. 513 00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:33,410 And Ukraine takes all of those boxes. 514 00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:35,030 It ticks all those boxes. 515 00:23:35,030 --> 00:23:38,910 I fell in love with the Ukrainians when I arrived. 516 00:23:38,910 --> 00:23:40,950 How could you not? 517 00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:46,310 And how could you not just come to help the people that 518 00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:52,310 are literally fighting for what NATO is created for, 519 00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:56,056 to stop Russian aggression? 520 00:23:56,056 --> 00:23:59,190 HOLLY WILLIAMS: At a NATO training exercise in Estonia 521 00:23:59,190 --> 00:24:02,430 last year, the alliance tested its vulnerability 522 00:24:02,430 --> 00:24:04,870 against drones. 523 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:09,750 Around 1,000 NATO personnel were defeated in the drill by a group 524 00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:13,370 of drone operators, some of them Ukrainian. 525 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:16,330 Is this a revolution in warfare? 526 00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:17,490 It is. 527 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:18,970 No question in your mind. 528 00:24:18,970 --> 00:24:20,293 No question. 529 00:24:20,293 --> 00:24:22,010 In every war, there is innovation 530 00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:25,890 from going from horses to tanks to machine guns, 531 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:28,630 and then tactics evolve in response to that. 532 00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:32,450 And that is why it's just incredibly important for the US, 533 00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:36,515 for our European allies to learn these lessons from Ukraine. 534 00:24:36,515 --> 00:24:37,890 There's a real risk that the US 535 00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:40,290 would lose its military supremacy 536 00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:44,090 if it doesn't adapt to modern conditions on the battlefield. 537 00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:46,370 We're going to be going up against these same unmanned 538 00:24:46,370 --> 00:24:49,982 systems that Russia is using against Ukraine. 539 00:24:49,982 --> 00:24:52,090 HOLLY WILLIAMS: The US military told us 540 00:24:52,090 --> 00:24:56,050 it intends to hang on to its supremacy, 541 00:24:56,050 --> 00:25:00,570 not by buying, stockpiling, or replicating Ukraine's drones, 542 00:25:00,570 --> 00:25:03,970 but by tapping into the same passion for innovation 543 00:25:03,970 --> 00:25:09,440 the Ukrainians have at the Wiesbaden Garrison in Germany. 544 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,190 SOLIDER 1: Cable channels you run through, 545 00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:12,750 keep everything nice and flush. 546 00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:14,630 HOLLY WILLIAMS: The Forge is one of dozens 547 00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:18,430 of drone innovation labs set up by the US military 548 00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:19,570 around the world. 549 00:25:19,570 --> 00:25:22,173 SOLIDER 2: Props are good. 550 00:25:22,173 --> 00:25:23,590 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Any service member 551 00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:27,710 with an idea or just an interest can request to spend time 552 00:25:27,710 --> 00:25:29,070 in one of the labs. 553 00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:31,467 The legs slide out, and you just add a spacer. 554 00:25:31,467 --> 00:25:33,550 RONAN SEFTON: It's adding a culture of innovation, 555 00:25:33,550 --> 00:25:34,330 and that's new. 556 00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:35,913 That's not something that we've really 557 00:25:35,913 --> 00:25:37,370 seen in the last 20 years. 558 00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:39,230 Is it possible that a soldier will 559 00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:41,310 walk into one of those innovation labs 560 00:25:41,310 --> 00:25:44,270 with an idea that could be a breakthrough 561 00:25:44,270 --> 00:25:45,830 in drone technology? 562 00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:47,310 It's entirely possible. 563 00:25:47,310 --> 00:25:49,550 The thing with drones and innovation 564 00:25:49,550 --> 00:25:52,870 is what I would describe as unlimited innovation potential. 565 00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:56,090 If you can think of it, you can make a drone do it. 566 00:25:56,090 --> 00:25:57,930 Expedited basic training. 567 00:25:57,930 --> 00:25:59,510 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Captain Ronan Sefton 568 00:25:59,510 --> 00:26:03,030 was first deployed to Germany with the Army's second cavalry 569 00:26:03,030 --> 00:26:08,090 regiment, not long after Russia launched its invasion in 2022. 570 00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:12,970 His job was to give basic training to over 8,000 Ukrainian 571 00:26:12,970 --> 00:26:14,570 soldiers. 572 00:26:14,570 --> 00:26:16,970 But he told us almost immediately 573 00:26:16,970 --> 00:26:20,710 the Americans began learning from the Ukrainians. 574 00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:22,970 RONAN SEFTON: The first really poignant lesson 575 00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:24,990 for us was there needs to be more drones. 576 00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:26,490 They need to be everywhere, involved 577 00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:28,990 in the training to add to the realism. 578 00:26:28,990 --> 00:26:31,750 So the Ukrainian soldiers were giving that to you as feedback? 579 00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:32,570 Absolutely. 580 00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:35,110 Did you then talk to your commanding officers about it? 581 00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:37,625 We went to every senior commander we could. 582 00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:39,250 The thing that we wanted to communicate 583 00:26:39,250 --> 00:26:40,550 was this is important. 584 00:26:40,550 --> 00:26:42,370 It's changing warfare, and here's 585 00:26:42,370 --> 00:26:44,210 how we can actually implement it now. 586 00:26:44,210 --> 00:26:45,430 We're already doing it. 587 00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:46,830 We should scale this. 588 00:26:46,830 --> 00:26:48,810 HOLLY WILLIAMS: The message got through. 589 00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:52,850 And now Sefton's joined the Army's Ukraine Lessons Learned 590 00:26:52,850 --> 00:26:53,950 Taskforce. 591 00:26:53,950 --> 00:26:56,450 It has the job of translating experience 592 00:26:56,450 --> 00:27:00,170 from Ukraine's scrappy fighting force 593 00:27:00,170 --> 00:27:02,970 to America's sprawling military. 594 00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:06,870 He told us the new technology does not make the US military's 595 00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:13,630 traditional firepower obsolete, but it needs to adapt urgently, 596 00:27:13,630 --> 00:27:18,830 countering the drones developed by America's adversaries. 597 00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:20,370 You still need howitzers. 598 00:27:20,370 --> 00:27:22,070 You still need Abrams, but you have 599 00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:24,110 to figure out how to get the drones to work 600 00:27:24,110 --> 00:27:25,610 with the howitzers and Abrams. 601 00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:26,985 RONAN SEFTON: Exactly, and that's 602 00:27:26,985 --> 00:27:29,550 the challenge, but also the goal to become ready 603 00:27:29,550 --> 00:27:30,890 for the next conflict. 604 00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:33,370 We see it with the armed forces of Ukraine. 605 00:27:33,370 --> 00:27:35,717 They have learned these lessons through blood. 606 00:27:35,717 --> 00:27:37,550 There will, of course, be additional lessons 607 00:27:37,550 --> 00:27:40,390 that we will learn, perhaps through blood, 608 00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:44,710 but it will only make us better at what we already are. 609 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:47,050 HOLLY WILLIAMS|: The day after that interview, 610 00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:51,590 the United States went to war. 611 00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:54,330 And the Iranian drones began flying. 612 00:27:54,330 --> 00:27:55,250 [EXPLOSION] 613 00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:59,990 The first Americans killed in the conflict 614 00:27:59,990 --> 00:28:02,670 were targeted with a drone. 615 00:28:02,670 --> 00:28:07,290 The US military is now learning its lessons in blood, 616 00:28:07,290 --> 00:28:10,330 just as Ukraine did. 617 00:28:10,330 --> 00:28:13,670 [AUDIO LOGO] 618 00:28:14,170 --> 00:28:17,790 ANNOUNCER: The next breakthrough in battlefield drones? 619 00:28:17,790 --> 00:28:20,790 HOLLY WILLIAMS: Drones working together like a swarm of bees. 620 00:28:20,790 --> 00:28:21,290 Exactly. 621 00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:22,070 Pretty scary. 622 00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:23,970 It is scary, absolutely. 623 00:28:23,970 --> 00:28:25,830 ANNOUNCER: At 60minutesovertime.com. 624 00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:32,346 [AUDIO LOGO] 625 00:28:33,342 --> 00:28:39,890 Imagine in the 21st century, discovering a marvel on par with 626 00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:42,530 Mount Everest or the Grand Canyon. 627 00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:47,930 It happened in 2009 with the revelation of the largest cave 628 00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:50,090 passage in the world. 629 00:28:50,090 --> 00:28:54,210 It's in Vietnam, and they call it Hwangseong-dong-- 630 00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:56,690 mountain river cave. 631 00:28:56,690 --> 00:29:00,170 An intrepid British Explorer, Peter MacNab, 632 00:29:00,170 --> 00:29:04,930 led the first team through this epic underworld of caverns, 633 00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:07,190 the height of skyscrapers. 634 00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:09,310 MacNab is to caving what Armstrong 635 00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:12,750 is to the moon, the first Explorer. 636 00:29:12,750 --> 00:29:15,270 Recently, we asked MacNab to show 637 00:29:15,270 --> 00:29:18,150 us this wonder of the world. 638 00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:21,950 But before we begin our trek, we really 639 00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:25,290 have to show you a preview of where we're going. 640 00:29:28,110 --> 00:29:31,790 Simply glorious. 641 00:29:31,790 --> 00:29:37,990 This was the moment Son Doong caught us in its grasp. 642 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:45,030 Sunbeams cascading 120 stories from a break in the ceiling. 643 00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:51,030 Groundwater above us slipping through the light like rain. 644 00:29:51,030 --> 00:29:56,230 And rock reflecting what seemed like the only sound 645 00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:59,450 in the world. 646 00:29:59,450 --> 00:30:04,410 Not many have stood in this space that transcends time. 647 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:10,350 It was a reward for our journey that began days before. 648 00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:16,570 The only way to Son Doong is on foot, 649 00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:20,210 a trek of a day and a half. 650 00:30:20,210 --> 00:30:26,690 We had a party of 53 moving in groups, mostly porters, 651 00:30:26,690 --> 00:30:31,490 heaving camping and TV gear, plus experts in safety 652 00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:34,210 and climbing. 653 00:30:34,210 --> 00:30:37,730 There were 20 river crossings, water 654 00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:42,850 flowing through limestone, two of the essentials for building 655 00:30:42,850 --> 00:30:45,050 caves. 656 00:30:45,050 --> 00:30:48,730 This is the slender center of Vietnam, 657 00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:54,090 the Truong Son range between Laos and the South China Sea. 658 00:30:54,090 --> 00:30:59,990 We were following the Vietnam war's Ho Chi Minh Trail, 659 00:30:59,990 --> 00:31:03,990 through a jungle where Tigers are not unknown 660 00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:06,430 and leeches are plentiful. 661 00:31:06,430 --> 00:31:08,736 WOMAN: Oop, there's another one. 662 00:31:08,736 --> 00:31:12,570 JON WERTHEIM: Leading us were explorers Howard Limbert, 663 00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:17,870 whose work in Vietnam over 30 years discovered 500 caves, 664 00:31:17,870 --> 00:31:20,510 and Peter MacNab, whom Limbert sent 665 00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:23,190 to be the first in Son Doong. 666 00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:25,990 PETER MACNAB: I find it an adventure going, exploring 667 00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:29,590 and not quite knowing what's around the corner 668 00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:32,130 and just finding your way through. 669 00:31:32,130 --> 00:31:36,390 And things reveal themselves like big chambers, big passages 670 00:31:36,390 --> 00:31:39,518 or tight, narrow bits, beautiful formations. 671 00:31:39,518 --> 00:31:41,310 And there aren't a lot of places on Earth 672 00:31:41,310 --> 00:31:43,530 that you can discover for the very first time. 673 00:31:43,530 --> 00:31:46,230 PETER MACNAB: No, you have to look pretty hard for them. 674 00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:49,150 JON WERTHEIM: You have to look pretty hard for the entrance 675 00:31:49,150 --> 00:31:50,590 to Son Doong. 676 00:31:50,590 --> 00:31:53,110 You'd hardly notice, but for the writing 677 00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:58,930 on the wall proclaiming the miracle of Ho Khanh. 678 00:31:58,930 --> 00:32:04,010 In 1990, Ho Khanh, a villager, discovered this entrance 679 00:32:04,010 --> 00:32:06,970 after he sheltered here from a storm. 680 00:32:06,970 --> 00:32:07,872 He told us-- 681 00:32:07,872 --> 00:32:09,122 HO KHANH: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] 682 00:32:09,122 --> 00:32:12,250 JON WERTHEIM: --I was collecting wood. 683 00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:17,890 I saw a sinkhole, and I felt something strange. 684 00:32:17,890 --> 00:32:24,290 The strange feeling was wind blowing out of the ground. 685 00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:29,770 Cavers know that's the breath of a tremendous cavern. 686 00:32:29,770 --> 00:32:33,970 In 2,000 the British cavers asked young Ho Khanh to show 687 00:32:33,970 --> 00:32:36,750 them, but it took eight years. 688 00:32:36,750 --> 00:32:39,870 He'd lost it in the trackless jungle. 689 00:32:39,870 --> 00:32:41,540 HO KHANH: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] 690 00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:45,450 JON WERTHEIM: In 2008, I finally found it, he told us. 691 00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:49,410 In 2009, they started exploring. 692 00:32:49,410 --> 00:32:52,770 That exploration began here. 693 00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:58,710 We're just inside, looking back toward the entrance above. 694 00:32:58,710 --> 00:33:04,270 The first obstacle is a spectacular 30-story story wall 695 00:33:04,270 --> 00:33:07,370 that our climbing team showed us how to descend. 696 00:33:07,370 --> 00:33:09,510 Can you step to the left side? 697 00:33:09,510 --> 00:33:11,990 JON WERTHEIM: Darkness would be nearly total, 698 00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:15,030 but we lit it so you can see. 699 00:33:15,030 --> 00:33:17,910 Peter MacNab was the first to do this. 700 00:33:17,910 --> 00:33:22,070 In 2009, he and four others on his team 701 00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:24,570 were dropping into darkness. 702 00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:27,190 PETER MACNAB: There's an obvious big black hole where you're 703 00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:31,670 heading towards, and you just skirt around and look around 704 00:33:31,670 --> 00:33:33,350 and find this way is pretty good. 705 00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:34,910 This way works. 706 00:33:34,910 --> 00:33:37,590 Quite often, you get stopped, can't get down here. 707 00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:39,650 You just basically feel your way through the cave 708 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:41,010 by trial and error. 709 00:33:41,010 --> 00:33:41,510 [CHUCKLES] 710 00:33:41,510 --> 00:33:42,878 You had no idea-- 711 00:33:42,878 --> 00:33:43,670 None whatsoever-- 712 00:33:43,670 --> 00:33:45,690 JON WERTHEIM: --what was beyond the light on your helmet. 713 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:45,950 PETER MACNAB: Yeah. 714 00:33:45,950 --> 00:33:47,190 No, we didn't at all. 715 00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:50,270 Every corner you went round was completely new, completely 716 00:33:50,270 --> 00:33:52,970 exciting, and it just kept getting better and better 717 00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:54,150 as you went into the cave. 718 00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:56,590 It was absolutely spectacular. 719 00:33:56,590 --> 00:33:59,170 JON WERTHEIM: Spectacular like the entrance 720 00:33:59,170 --> 00:34:01,570 we just repelled down. 721 00:34:01,570 --> 00:34:06,090 Look at the two men, halfway down holding lights. 722 00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:10,770 At the very top is the entrance and the last daylight 723 00:34:10,770 --> 00:34:14,130 we would see for a while. 724 00:34:14,130 --> 00:34:17,889 At the bottom of the climb, we met the architect 725 00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:23,290 of Son Doong, the Rao Thoung River. 726 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:27,050 Its waters are acidic, so it's really 727 00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:30,929 good at dissolving limestone. 728 00:34:30,929 --> 00:34:33,235 Well, this is a pretty good setting for an interview. 729 00:34:33,235 --> 00:34:34,110 DARRYL GRANGER: Yeah. 730 00:34:34,110 --> 00:34:37,889 JON WERTHEIM: In camp we spoke to Purdue University geologist 731 00:34:37,889 --> 00:34:42,770 Darryl Granger, who came here in 2010 to figure out when 732 00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:45,690 the river started its project. 733 00:34:45,690 --> 00:34:49,449 We found a nice package of sediment further in the cave, 734 00:34:49,449 --> 00:34:53,570 and that dated to about 2 and 1/2 million years ago. 735 00:34:53,570 --> 00:34:57,710 JON WERTHEIM: That's when the river first found a tiny crack 736 00:34:57,710 --> 00:34:59,490 in the limestone ridge. 737 00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:01,870 DARRYL GRANGER: The width of a hair, maybe. 738 00:35:01,870 --> 00:35:03,990 That's all it takes to make a cave. 739 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:05,750 The water started flowing through it 740 00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:08,630 and dissolving it bigger and bigger and bigger. 741 00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:10,650 We still have water going through it today, 742 00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:15,882 so it's continuing to get bigger as we speak. 743 00:35:15,882 --> 00:35:18,510 JON WERTHEIM: Our exploration of the cave 744 00:35:18,510 --> 00:35:22,070 took three days and two nights. 745 00:35:22,070 --> 00:35:25,390 The length is 5.6 miles. 746 00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:31,150 It's 65 stories tall and the width of one and a half football 747 00:35:31,150 --> 00:35:33,190 fields. 748 00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:37,150 The Great Pyramid of Giza would fit easily. 749 00:35:37,150 --> 00:35:41,310 A 747 could fly through the biggest passage 750 00:35:41,310 --> 00:35:44,390 and not scrape a wing. 751 00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:51,170 Sometimes, the only way forward was the width of our shoulders. 752 00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:55,650 But we noticed in the broadest caverns, 753 00:35:55,650 --> 00:36:00,330 you often lose the sense of even being underground. 754 00:36:00,330 --> 00:36:04,250 What reminds you is the isolation. 755 00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:10,250 No cell phone, no satellite, we were cut off from the world. 756 00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:15,050 Roughly halfway, there was a light ahead. 757 00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:19,370 There are two skylights where the roof collapsed. 758 00:36:19,370 --> 00:36:23,250 For us, a break from total darkness and a chance 759 00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:26,290 to show you the scale. 760 00:36:26,290 --> 00:36:30,890 Geologists call these holes dolines. 761 00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:33,230 The word has European roots. 762 00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:36,210 It means sinkhole or depression. 763 00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:39,690 And this doline formed because the roof 764 00:36:39,690 --> 00:36:42,050 over our heads, the limestone, is 765 00:36:42,050 --> 00:36:46,230 a little bit thinner here than it is in the rest of the cave. 766 00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:50,430 Then, as the cave grew wider and wider and wider 767 00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:55,030 over millions of years, it was unable to support the roof 768 00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:55,830 above. 769 00:36:55,830 --> 00:36:58,150 It all caved in right here. 770 00:36:58,150 --> 00:37:02,270 What's remarkable about it is that it allows light 771 00:37:02,270 --> 00:37:05,910 into this cave that would otherwise be utterly dark. 772 00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:10,350 And it allowed the jungle to come inside the cave. 773 00:37:10,350 --> 00:37:16,030 Like everything else about the cave, this doline is enormous. 774 00:37:16,030 --> 00:37:20,070 It's 450 above my head. 775 00:37:20,070 --> 00:37:25,550 In other words, about the height of a 45-story building. 776 00:37:25,550 --> 00:37:27,870 We stopped here with Howard Limbert, 777 00:37:27,870 --> 00:37:30,770 who's explored Vietnam since the '90s. 778 00:37:30,770 --> 00:37:34,250 When my producer, Nicole young, suggested this story, 779 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:35,630 I turned her down. 780 00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:37,870 I said, Nick, it's a hole in the ground. 781 00:37:37,870 --> 00:37:39,130 What was I missing? 782 00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:41,230 You're missing the best adventure 783 00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:42,450 that happens in the world. 784 00:37:42,450 --> 00:37:43,862 Something no one's seen before? 785 00:37:43,862 --> 00:37:45,070 That's the beauty of caves. 786 00:37:45,070 --> 00:37:48,030 If you climb in a mountain, you can see where you're going. 787 00:37:48,030 --> 00:37:49,610 But in a cave, when you go in, you 788 00:37:49,610 --> 00:37:51,270 don't know what it's going to do. 789 00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:52,885 Your father was a caver. 790 00:37:52,885 --> 00:37:54,010 PETER MACNAB: He was, yeah. 791 00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:56,410 So he was a caver in Scotland. 792 00:37:56,410 --> 00:37:59,290 JON WERTHEIM: Peter MacNab, the first in Son Doong, 793 00:37:59,290 --> 00:38:02,530 has been caving since he was a boy. 794 00:38:02,530 --> 00:38:04,050 You grew up in a cave. 795 00:38:04,050 --> 00:38:06,230 PETER MACNAB: Not quite, but within a mile of it. 796 00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:07,810 [LAUGHTER] 797 00:38:07,810 --> 00:38:09,730 JON WERTHEIM: MacNab is a construction manager 798 00:38:09,730 --> 00:38:13,050 in New Zealand-- big projects like hospitals, 799 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:17,890 but you get the sense he does that to pay for this. 800 00:38:17,890 --> 00:38:19,550 In all the caving that you've done, 801 00:38:19,550 --> 00:38:22,490 what is the closest call you've ever had? 802 00:38:22,490 --> 00:38:23,490 I've been stuck. 803 00:38:23,490 --> 00:38:26,770 I've had rocks collapsed, and I've been flooded in. 804 00:38:26,770 --> 00:38:29,170 JON WERTHEIM: He was stuck a few years ago 805 00:38:29,170 --> 00:38:31,610 when he went headfirst into a crevice 806 00:38:31,610 --> 00:38:34,770 that cavers call a squeeze. 807 00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:36,810 MacNab couldn't back out. 808 00:38:36,810 --> 00:38:39,890 A partner found him and used a knife 809 00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:45,230 to rip away his coat to give him the spare half-inch he needed. 810 00:38:45,230 --> 00:38:47,090 Did he pull you out by your feet? 811 00:38:47,090 --> 00:38:48,290 Pretty much. 812 00:38:48,290 --> 00:38:49,790 [LAUGHS] Yeah. 813 00:38:49,790 --> 00:38:52,090 You are still exploring this region. 814 00:38:52,090 --> 00:38:52,930 Yes, yes. 815 00:38:52,930 --> 00:38:56,510 We come back every two years, and we've barely 816 00:38:56,510 --> 00:38:59,000 scratched the surface of the caves in this area. 817 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,750 JON WERTHEIM: There may be another biggest 818 00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:01,730 cave in the world. 819 00:39:01,730 --> 00:39:03,150 There could well be. 820 00:39:03,150 --> 00:39:07,710 JON WERTHEIM: Truth is, MacNab's first expedition in 2009 821 00:39:07,710 --> 00:39:11,870 never reached the end of Son Doong. 822 00:39:11,870 --> 00:39:18,350 Beyond this underground lake, he discovered a 30-story wall 823 00:39:18,350 --> 00:39:21,370 and ran out of time before he could scale it. 824 00:39:21,370 --> 00:39:24,370 MAN: Take in, take in, take in. 825 00:39:24,370 --> 00:39:27,070 JON WERTHEIM: We climbed it on our trek 826 00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:30,270 and understood immediately why they call 827 00:39:30,270 --> 00:39:33,890 it the Great Wall of Vietnam. 828 00:39:33,890 --> 00:39:35,470 MAN: Keep the line tight. 829 00:39:35,470 --> 00:39:36,270 Take in. 830 00:39:36,270 --> 00:39:38,130 Excellent. 831 00:39:38,130 --> 00:39:39,730 Take it in on the lifeline. 832 00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:44,410 JON WERTHEIM: It's a 300-foot climb on slick rock, 833 00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:47,930 with no foothold anywhere. 834 00:39:47,930 --> 00:39:49,650 MAN: Take in. 835 00:39:49,650 --> 00:39:50,870 Excellent, Scott. 836 00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:52,570 That's really good. 837 00:39:52,570 --> 00:39:54,030 Come right up to the corner. 838 00:39:54,030 --> 00:39:57,250 JON WERTHEIM: [HEAVY SIGHING AND BREATHING] 839 00:39:57,250 --> 00:40:01,030 It's challenging enough until you realize, 840 00:40:01,030 --> 00:40:03,690 of course, you're doing it in the dark, 841 00:40:03,690 --> 00:40:05,990 and it's essentially raining. 842 00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:10,170 The groundwater is coming from the roof. 843 00:40:10,170 --> 00:40:14,730 So with everything wet, you find yourself slipping back 844 00:40:14,730 --> 00:40:18,050 while climbing up. 845 00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:23,990 But our team got us up and over, drenched and a little exhausted. 846 00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:29,890 Well, we saved the best for last. 847 00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:33,490 We've made it all the way through nearly all the miles 848 00:40:33,490 --> 00:40:35,490 of the cave over three days. 849 00:40:35,490 --> 00:40:37,630 And now we just have a little bit further to go. 850 00:40:37,630 --> 00:40:41,190 In fact, I can see the exit from here. 851 00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:44,110 We could see it, that light up there, 852 00:40:44,110 --> 00:40:47,950 but we still had quite a climb to make. 853 00:40:47,950 --> 00:40:49,990 We learned by the end of our trek 854 00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:54,430 that Son Doong may be even larger than we know. 855 00:40:54,430 --> 00:40:56,970 Hundreds of feet below that lake, 856 00:40:56,970 --> 00:41:01,430 behind us, the water is draining somewhere. 857 00:41:01,430 --> 00:41:06,230 There could be more caverns beyond. 858 00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:10,750 It's the work of millions of years likely to continue 859 00:41:10,750 --> 00:41:12,670 for millions more-- 860 00:41:12,670 --> 00:41:19,910 unimaginable time, measured by a pendulum of light, 861 00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:23,430 illuminating the splendor of one of the greatest marvels 862 00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:26,630 on or under the Earth. 863 00:41:29,138 --> 00:41:32,477 [AUDIO LOGO] 864 00:41:36,293 --> 00:41:39,330 ANNOUNCER: The last minute of 60 Minutes 865 00:41:39,330 --> 00:41:41,690 is sponsored by UnitedHealthcare, 866 00:41:41,690 --> 00:41:45,070 coverage your whole life ahead. 867 00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:52,010 As America celebrates the 250th anniversary 868 00:41:52,010 --> 00:41:55,610 of independence, we wondered about a game plan 869 00:41:55,610 --> 00:41:57,730 for the country's future. 870 00:41:57,730 --> 00:42:01,610 So Hall of Fame basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski 871 00:42:01,610 --> 00:42:03,920 drew one up for us. 872 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,510 To build a championship culture, 873 00:42:06,510 --> 00:42:08,650 you need talent and character. 874 00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:11,970 You then develop the values of that culture. 875 00:42:11,970 --> 00:42:15,170 The best teams have the best values. 876 00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:19,330 We had seven-- integrity, do the right thing, respect; 877 00:42:19,330 --> 00:42:21,170 everyone is important. 878 00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:23,530 Courage, the courage to say or do what 879 00:42:23,530 --> 00:42:28,570 needs to be said or done in that moment; selfless service, 880 00:42:28,570 --> 00:42:33,590 loyalty, duty, the dignity of work, and trust. 881 00:42:33,590 --> 00:42:38,270 Values-based organizations stand the test of time. 882 00:42:38,270 --> 00:42:41,070 Our country has great talent. 883 00:42:41,070 --> 00:42:46,990 And for 250 years, we have proven that we stand unshaken 884 00:42:46,990 --> 00:42:49,110 by the tests of history. 885 00:42:49,110 --> 00:42:53,270 Moving into the future, we must continue to teach, 886 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:57,110 celebrate, and most importantly, live 887 00:42:57,110 --> 00:42:59,950 the values that have made America 888 00:42:59,950 --> 00:43:02,870 the best country in the world. 889 00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:03,710 [AUDIO LOGO] 890 00:43:03,710 --> 00:43:04,910 I'm Scott Pelley. 891 00:43:04,910 --> 00:43:09,050 We'll be back next week with another edition of 60Minutes. 892 00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:14,930 ANNOUNCER: Go to the ends of the Earth. 893 00:43:14,930 --> 00:43:15,967 We'll hit the heights. 894 00:43:15,967 --> 00:43:16,550 [VOCALIZING] 895 00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:17,850 ANNOUNCER: Reach for the stars. 896 00:43:17,850 --> 00:43:18,490 Star power. 897 00:43:18,490 --> 00:43:19,050 I like it. 898 00:43:19,050 --> 00:43:20,758 ANNOUNCER: Experience thought-provoking-- 899 00:43:20,758 --> 00:43:22,830 Something that's undeniable. 900 00:43:22,830 --> 00:43:23,330 Ta-da! 901 00:43:23,330 --> 00:43:25,750 ANNOUNCER: --and truly original reporting. 902 00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:26,690 I'm in on this. 903 00:43:26,690 --> 00:43:28,315 ANNOUNCER: There's always something new 904 00:43:28,315 --> 00:43:30,930 under the sun on CBS Sunday Morning. 905 00:43:30,930 --> 00:43:33,380 [AUDIO LOGO]