>>> LITHUANIA'S CAPITAL IS CLOTHED IN THE COLORS OF UKRAINE. AND PUTIN IS REMINDED AN
INTERNATIONAL COURT IS WAITING WITH HIS ARREST WARRANT. SINCE THE 2022 INVASION, LITHUANIA HAS BECOME A REFUGE
FOR PUTIN'S FIERCEST CRITICS. >> YOU WOULD BE IN A RUSSIAN PRISON JUST FOR DOING THIS INTERVIEW.
>> OH, FOR SURE. FOR SURE. >>> IN 2022, NEARLY ONE MILLION AMERICANS, LIKE STEVEN AND BECKY
SWORD, RECEIVED A LETTER FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION SAYING THAT DUE TO A GOVERNMENT MISCALCULATION,
THEY OWED SOCIAL SECURITY MONEY, A LOT OF MONEY IN THEIR CASE, $51,887. THE SWORDS WERE ASKED TO REPAY
IT WITHIN 30 DAYS. >> ARE YOU SCARED? >> HE'S THINKING WE'RE GOING TO LOSE OUR HOUSE.
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? I MEAN, WE WERE VERY SCARED. >>> 168 COUNTRIES, INCLUDING CHINA, HAVE SIGNED ON TO THE
UNITED NATIONS LAW OF THE SEA, A TREATY THAT DIVVIES UP THE INTERNATIONAL SEABED FOR THE MINING OF PRECIOUS METAL, VITAL
FOR EVERYTHING FROM ELECTRIC CARS TO DEFENSE SYSTEMS. ABSENT FROM THE TREATY, THE UNITED STATES.
>> THE UNITED STATES PROBABLY HAS GOT THE MOST TO GAIN OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IF IT WERE PART OF THE LAW TO THE SEA
CONVENTION. AND CONVERSELY, WE PROBABLY HAVE THE MOST TO LOSE BY NOT BEING PART OF IT.
>> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI.
>> I'M JON WERTHEIM. >> I'M CECILIA VEGA. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES TONIGHT ON "60
MINUTES." >>> 71-YEAR-OLD VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS NOW LED RUSSIA FOR 24 YEARS. IF HE SERVES OUT THE
PRESIDENTIAL TERM HE WON THIS YEAR, HE WILL BE IN POWER AS LONG AS SOVIET DICTATOR JOSEPH STALIN.
PUTIN'S CHALLENGERS OFTEN MEET UNTIMELY ENDS, ONE AFTER AN EXPLOSION ON A PLANE, AND ALEXEI NAVALNY, PUTIN'S LEADING RIVAL,
WHO DIED IN FEBRUARY IN AN ARCTIC PRISON CAMP. PUTIN HAS ALSO KILLED NEARLY ALL INTERNAL OPPOSITION TO HIS
UNPROVOKED WAR IN UKRAINE. AND YET, MANY COURAGEOUS RUSSIANS CONTINUE THE STRUGGLE OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY.
AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN MARCH, WE MET SOME OF THEM IN A CITY THAT YOU MIGHT THINK OF AS THE CAPITAL OF FREE RUSSIA.
>> IT'S 500 MILES WEST OF MOSCOW, THE CITY OF VILNIUS, IN LITHUANIA, WHERE THERE'S NO LOVE LOST FOR RUSSIA.
LITHUANIA IS A DEMOCRACY OF ABOUT 3 MILLION PEOPLE AND A NATO ALLY. VILNIUS, THE CAPITAL, IS CLOTHED
IN THE COLORS OF UKRAINE. THE CITY CHANGED THE RUSSIAN EMBASSY'S ADDRESS TO HEROES OF UKRAINE STREET, AND PUTIN IS
REMINDED THE INTERNATIONAL PORT IN THE HAGUE IS WAITING WITH HIS ARREST WARRANT. SINCE PUTIN'S 2022 INVASION,
LITHUANIA HAS WELCOMED MORE THAN 2,500 RUSSIAN EXILES. >> IT IS OUR POLICY TO PROVIDE SHELTER TO ALL FREEDOM FIGHTERS.
>> MONTAS ADOMENAS SERVED AS LITHUANIA'S DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER FROM 2020 UNTIL LAST AUGUST.
>> I HAVEN'T SEEN SO MANY UKRAINIAN FLAGS SINCE I WAS IN KYIV. WHY DO YOUR PEOPLE FEEL SO
SRONGLY ABOUT THIS? >> OUR FREEDOM, OUR INDEPENDENCE, OUR, SORT OF, SECURITY IS BEING DEFENDED IN
THE BATTLEFIELDS IN UKRAINE. UKRAINIANS ARE DYING SO THAT WE CAN BE SAFE. >> THERE ARE MANY MORE RUSSIAN
DISSIDENTS WHO WOULD LOVE TO COME TO LITHUANIA. CAN YOU ACCEPT ANY MORE? >> OF COURSE WE CAN ACCEPT.
WE WILL PROVIDE THEM ACCOMMODATIONS AS NEEDED, AND WORK FOR THE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN RUSSIA.
>> ONE OF THE RUSSIAN EXILES IN LITHUANIA WORKING FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IS A CRUSADING MOM.
TWO YEARS AGO, ANASTASIA SHEVCHENKO FLED PUTIN'S REGIME. >> THIS IS A TERRORIST REGIME. THEY ARE THREATENING OTHER
COUNTRIES WITH OIL, GAS, NUCLEAR WEAPON, AND GRAIN. THEY'RE THREATENING US WITH OUR CHILDREN, WITH OUR PARENTS, WITH
OUR LIVES, AND SO ON. >> MORE THAN ANYTHING, IT WAS HER DAUGHTER, ALINA, SEVERELY DISABLED AT BIRTH, THAT MADE
SHEVCHENKO AN ACTIVIST AGAINST PUTIN. BACK THEN, THE FAMILY WAS IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA, AND ALINA WAS
IN A RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT NURSING HOME. >> ALINA COULD NOT SPEAK, COULD NOT COMMUNICATE.
>> NO. SHE WAS, LIKE, ONE WEAK CHILD, LIKE A BABY. SHE WAS 17, BUT EVEN, YOU KNOW,
TO FEEL HER, IT WAS A WHOLE SCIENCE BECAUSE SHE NEEDED BLENDED FOOD. YOU NEED TO HOLD HER IN SPECIAL
POSITION. >> SHEVCHENKO CARED FOR ALINA MUCH OF THE TIME BECAUSE THE RUSSIAN NURSING FACILITY WAS
SHORT ON STAFF AND SUPPLIES. >> I WAS STRUGGLING TO GET MEDICATION FOR MY DAUGHTER, BEGGING IN THE PHARMACY THAT SHE
NEEDED IT. IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR HER HEALTH. THEY SAID, NO, WE JUST DON'T
HAVE IT BECAUSE THE MINISTRY FORGOT TO ORDER IT THIS MONTH. AND YOU NEED TO WAIT. I DECIDED, I'M NOT GOING TO KEEP
SILENT AND, YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO STAND OUT AND SPEAK OUT. >> SHE SPOKE OUT THROUGH A RUSSIAN DEMOCRACY GROUP CALLED
"OPEN RUSSIA." IT WAS TOLERATED TEN YEARS AGO, AND SHEVCHENKO ORGANIZED PROTESTS IN HER HOMETOWN.
BUT IN 2019, THE KREMLIN CRACKED DOWN. SHEVCHENKO WAS ARRESTED, AND HER LAWYER WARNED HER SHE WOULD BE
SHOCKED BY WHAT THE POLICE HAD ALREADY DONE. >> HE SHOWED ME THE SCREEN SHOTS OF ME IN MY BED.
AND I REALIZED THAT THEY HAD INSTALLED THE VIDEO CAMERA INTO THE AIR CONDITIONING UNIT ABOVE MY BED.
AND THEY HAVE BEEN WATCHING ME FOR SIX MONTHS IN MY BEDROOM. >> A RUSSIAN COURT ORDERED SHEVCHENKO INTO HOUSE ARREST.
SHE COULDN'T VISIT OR CARE FOR ALINA. IT WASN'T LONG BEFORE HER DAUGHTER DEVELOPED PNEUMONIA.
BY THE TIME A JUDGE GRANTED SHEVCHENKO A PASS TO THE HOSPITAL, ALINA WAS UNCONSCIOUS. >> I SPENT MAYBE TEN MINUTES
HOLDING HER HAND BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I DO WHEN MY CHILDREN ARE ILL. WHEN YOU HOLD THEIR HAND, THEY
FEEL BETTER. BUT THIS TIME, SHE WAS COLD. SHE DIDN'T FEEL ME. AND SHE DIED IN AN HOUR.
>> IN 2021, SHEVCHENKO WAS GIVEN A FOUR-YEAR SUSPENDED SENTENCE. BUT WHEN PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE THE NEXT YEAR, SHE DECIDED TO
FLEE RUSSIA. FROM HER SOUTHERN CITY, SHE TOOK HER TWO SURVIVING CHILDREN ON AN 1,100-MILE DRIVE.
A U.S.-BASED DEMOCRACY GROUP ARRANGED LITHUANIAN VISAS. >> WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT RUSSIA TODAY?
>> IT'S ENOUGH TO WRITE SOMETHING ON SOCIAL MEDIA. JUST ONE SENTENCE AND YOU CAN BE IMPRISONED FOR YEARS.
THEY ARE LISTENING TO YOUR PHONE CALLS. THEY'RE WATCHING YOU IN YOUR BEDROOM.
THEY'RE CONTROLLING YOU. >> BREAKING THAT CONTROL IS WHY SERGEI DAVIDAS ALSO LEFT RUSSIA FOR LITHUANIA IN 2022.
>> YOU WOULD BE IN A RUSSIAN PRISON JUST FOR DOING THIS INTERVIEW. >> OH, FOR SURE.
FOR SURE. >> IN MOSCOW, DAVIDAS HELPED LEAD ONE OF RUSSIA'S LARGEST HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS, CALLED
MEMORIAL. IT WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TWO YEARS AGO. BUT NOW IT'S BANNED.
HE TOLD US -- ALMOST EVERY DAY, THERE ARE MORE AND MORE ARRESTS. WE HEAR NEWS ABOUT NEW POLITICAL
ARRESTS. AND APART FROM THE LEGAL SIDE OF IT, MORE OFTEN THAN BEFORE, THERE'S VIOLENCE AND TORTURE.
DAVIDAS HEADS MEMORIAL'S PROJECT TO SUPPORT POLITICAL PRISONERS. HE TOLD US HE HAS CONFIRMED 680 IMPRISONED TODAY, BUT HE
BELIEVES THE ACTUAL NUMBER IS MULTIPLES OF THAT. SINCE 2022, RUSSIANS CAN BE SENTENCED TO 15 YEARS JUST FOR
CRITICIZING THE WAR ON THE STREET OR IN THE MEDIA. [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ]
"ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE WAR," HE SAYS, "WAS A COMPLETE WIPEOUT OF INDEPENDENT MASS MEDIA, A PROHIBITION OF ANY
OPINION THAT'S NOT UNDER CONTROL OF THE GOVERNMENT." INDEPENDENT NEWSROOMS IN RUSSIA HAVE BEEN FORCED TO CLOSE.
GOVERNMENT-CONTROLLED NEWSCASTS REPORT ONLY THE ABSURD LIE THAT THE WAR IS SELF-DEFENSE AGAINST NAZIS.
THIS HOST SAYS -- [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] "WE ARE ON THE SIDE OF GOOD,
AGAINST THE FORCES OF ABSOLUTE EVIL EMBODIED BY THE UKRAINIAN NAZI BATTALIONS." >> PEOPLE ARE SCARED, SO THEY
FEEL LONELY. THEY FEEL TERRIBLY LONELY. >> TATYANA FELGENHAUER AND ALEXANDER PLYUSCHEV WERE TALK
RADIO HOSTS ON A PROMINENT MOSCOW STATION. THEY WERE ALLOWED TO SPEAK THEIR MINDS UNTIL THE DAY PUTIN
LAUNCHED HIS WAR. >> IT WAS MY MORNING SHOW. I SAID, IT'S HALF PAST 6:00 IN THE MORNING.
WAR BEGAN. >> WAR BEGAN, AND WITHIN TWO WEEKS, THEIR STATION WAS FORCED TO CLOSE.
NOW, PLYUSCHEV AND FELGENHAUER ARE IN VILNIUS STREAMING DAILY INTO RUSSIA ON YOUTUBE. PUTIN SILENCED FACEBOOK, X, AND
INSTAGRAM, BUT YOUTUBE MAY BE TOO POPULAR FOR THE KREMLIN TO BLOCK SO FAR. >> THIS IS THE ONLY CHANCE TO
TALK ABOUT THE WAR HONESTLY BECAUSE THE PROPAGANDA TRIES TO CREATE THIS FEELING THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY ALONE IF YOU ARE
AGAINST THE WAR. >> WHY DOES THIS MEAN SO MUCH TO YOU? >> REALLY I WOULD HATE MYSELF IF
I'M SILENT OR PRETENDING THAT EVERYTHING IS OKAY. >> IF RUSSIAN RADIO AND TV STATIONS ARE ALLOWED ONLY
KREMLIN TALKING POINTS, WE SAW A LITHUANIAN STATION TELLING THE TRUTH, NOT ON A CHANNEL, BUT ON PLATFORM NUMBER 5 TO A CAPTIVE
RUSSIAN AUDIENCE. BECAUSE PART OF RUSSIA, KALININGRAD, ON THE LEFT, IS SEPARATE, LIKE ALASKA FROM THE
LOWER 48, THE MOSCOW-KALININGRAD TRAIN MUST TRAVEL THROUGH LITHUANIA. THE CARS ARE SEALED FOR THE
TRANSIT. BUT AT A STOP IN VILNIUS, RUSSIAN PASSENGERS WERE CONFRONTED BY POSTERS OF
ATROCITIES. EACH READ, "PUTIN IS KILLING CIVILIANS IN UKRAINE. DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS?"
THE GALLERY TESTIFIED, AS THE TRAIN WAITED HALF AN HOUR. THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW HOW MUCH TRUTH CLIMBED ABOARD.
AND NO ONE IS ALLOWED OFF THE TRAIN IN PART BECAUSE LITHUANIA WORRIES ABOUT RUSSIAN AGENTS. >> PUTIN IS INFAMOUS FOR
ATTEMPTING TO ATTACK HIS ENEMIES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES, AND I WONDER IF THE RUSSIAN DISSIDENTS ARE SAFE HERE IN LITHUANIA.
>> OF COURSE IT IS A MAJOR CONCERN FOR US. WE SPEND CONSIDERABLE EFFORT IN MAKING SURE THAT DISSIDENTS ARE
SAFE HERE AND SAFER THAN THEY WOULD BE, IN FACT, IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES. >> HAVE THERE BEEN ATTEMPTS?
>> WELL, I'M AFRAID I CAN'T RELEASE THAT INFORMATION IN MORE DETAIL. BUT LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY, THAT
RUSSIA IS CONSTANTLY PROBING AND CONSTANTLY TRYING. >> AND THIS PAST MARCH, RUSSIA MAY HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH.
LEONID VOLKOV WAS ATTACKED WITH A HAMMER OUTSIDE VILNIUS. VOLKOV, ON THE RIGHT, WAS A TOP AIDE TO PUTIN'S LATE RIVAL,
ALEXEI NAVALNY. VOLKOV'S ARM WAS BROKEN. THE ATTACKER FLED. VLADIMIR PUTIN'S RE-ELECTION
THIS YEAR BROUGHT HIM TO HIS FIFTH TERM, WHICH WILL COVER THE NEXT SIX YEARS. >> RUSSIA.
>> HE ENJOYS SUPPORT FROM NATIONALISTS WHO WANT TO BELIEVE THAT TODAY'S RUSSIA IS AN EXCEPTIONAL NATION.
BUT PUTIN ALSO HAS WEAKNESSES. IT'S ESTIMATED HE'S LOST 300,000 TROOPS KILLED AND WOUNDED. AND RUSSIA HAS A POPULATION LESS
THAN HALF THAT OF THE UNITED STATES AND AN ECONOMY ABOUT THE SIZE OF ITALY'S. >> MY HOPE IS A COUNTRY WHERE
GOVERNMENT TAKES CARE OF OUR CITIZENS. >> ANASTASIA SHEVCHENKO IS FREE IN VILNIUS, BUT SHE'S WANTED IN
RUSSIA FOR BREAKING HER PROBATION. THESE DAYS SHE'S STREAMING HER OWN YOUTUBE SHOW AND SENDS
MEDICINE, FOOD, AND LETTERS TO POLITICAL PRISONERS. SHE'S BECOME ANOTHER VOICE TO THE ISOLATED AND THE LONELY AND
THOSE LIKE HER DAUGHTER, WHO WILL NEVER ESCAPE THE NEW IRON CURTAIN. >> SHE WAS ALONE, NO ONE NEXT TO
HER. I REALLY FEEL VERY GUILTY ABOUT IT. BUT I WOULDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING
IN MY LIFE, I THINK. >> WHY NOT? >> YOU KNOW, THE SOCIETY IN RUSSIA IS BASED ON FAKES.
WE HAVE FAKE DEMOCRACY. BY CONSTITUTION, IT IS A DEMOCRACY. FAKE NEWS, FAKE ELECTIONS.
AND I WANT TO BE THE OPPOSITE. I WANT TO BE OPEN. I WANT RUSSIA TO BE OPEN. >> THREE MEN WERE ARRESTED IN
NEIGHBORING POLAND FOR THE ATTACK ON LEONID VOLKOV. THE MAN WHO >>> EACH MONTH, ABOUT 71 MILLION
AMERICANS, RETIREES, DISABLED WORKERS, AND OTHERS, RECEIVE CHECKS FROM SOCIAL SECURITY. BUT AS WE FIRST REPORTED LAST
FALL, EACH YEAR ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE GET SOMETHING ELSE IN THE MAIL, A BILL. THEY'RE TOLD THEY OWE THE
GOVERNMENT MONEY, SOMETIMES TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, BECAUSE THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION MISCALCULATED
THEIR BENEFITS AND PAID THEM TOO MUCH. IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE. IT CAN TAKE YEARS, EVEN DECADES,
FOR THESE UNEXPECTED DEBTS TO SUDDENLY COME TO LIGHT. IT OFTEN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S NOT THE RECIPIENT'S FAULT.
THEY STILL HAVE TO PAY. FEW PEOPLE REALIZE IT, BUT SOCIAL SECURITY'S MISTAKES ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
IN 2022 AT STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD'S HOME IN CHICAGO, A LETTER ARRIVED FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION.
WHEN BECKY SWORD READ IT, SHE WAS STUNNED TO DISCOVER THAT SHE AND HER HUSBAND OWED SOCIAL SECURITY $51,887 AND WERE
EXPECTED TO REPAY IT WITHIN 30 DAYS. >> THAT LETTER CHANGED YOUR LIFE.
>> OH, YEAH. >> ARE YOU SCARED? >> HE'S THINKING WE'RE GOING TO LOSE OUR HOUSE.
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? I MEAN, WE WERE VERY SCARED. >> WHEN WE SPOKE WITH STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD IN AUGUST, STEVEN
WAS MAKING $16 AN HOUR AS A SECURITY GUARD ON THE OVERNIGHT SHIFT AT A CONDOMINIUM COMPLEX. BECKY WAS WORKING DAYS AS AN
OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY ASSISTANT IN A NURSING HOME. THEY'RE 62 YEARS OLD AND HAVE WORKED FULL TIME MOST OF THEIR
LIVES. BUT FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW, STEVEN'S BEEN DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF A PANCREATIC DISEASE
THAT NEARLY KILLED HIM IN 2016. >> HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE HOSPITAL FOR? >> ABOUT 105 DAYS.
IT WAS HARD BECAUSE WHEN I LEFT THE HOSPITAL, IT TOOK ME ABOUT TWO MONTHS TO LEARN TO EAT AND WALK AGAIN.
>> STEVEN STARTED RECEIVING SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY CHECKS IN 2017, AS HE RECOVERED AND RETURNED TO WORK.
THE AGENCY'S RULES ARE COMPLICATED, BUT BECKY FAXED STEVEN'S PAY STUBS TO SOCIAL SECURITY SO THE AGENCY COULD
MONITOR HIS EARNINGS AND ELIGIBILITY. SHE KEPT THE FAX RECEIPTS. >> SO, I KNEW THEY WERE GETTING
IT, YOU KNOW? >> IN RETURN, SOCIAL SECURITY SENT THE SWORDS LETTERS LIKE THIS ONE, SAYING IT HAD
INCREASED STEVEN'S BENEFITS TO GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR HIS 2019 EARNINGS. >> IS THE IMPRESSION YOU GOT
FROM THAT THAT THEY'RE EXAMINING THE PAY STUBS AND THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION? >> DEFINITELY.
BECAUSE THEY'RE INCREASING IT, YEAH. >> BUT THE LETTER THE SWORDS GOT FROM SOCIAL SECURITY IN 2022
SAID STEVEN SHOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN ANY MONEY AT THE TIME THE AGENCY GAVE HIM THAT INCREASE. STEVEN AND BECKY OWED MORE THAN
$50,000, THE AGENCY SAID, BECAUSE WE DID NOT STOP HIS CHECKS ABOUT THREE YEARS SOONER. >> HAS ANYONE IN SOCIAL SECURITY
EVER, SORT OF, APOLOGIZED? >> NO. THEY TAKE NO BLAME AT ALL. >> THEY SAY IT'S OUR FAULT.
>> THEY'RE SAYING YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT -- >> THAT WE'RE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY.
>> -- THAT SOCIAL SECURITY WAS GIVING YOU TOO MUCH MONEY EVEN THOUGH SOCIAL SECURITY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE GIVING YOU TOO
MUCH MONEY. >> YEAH. WHICH IS STRANGE. YOU'RE SENDING IN YOUR PAY
STUBS. SOMEONE HAS TO FILE THAT. >> WHEN WE ASKED THEM, THEY SAID, THEY'RE NOT LOOKING AT
THAT EVERY MONTH. SHE EVEN SAID, THEY'RE NOT EVEN LOOKING AT THAT EVERY YEAR. I COULD SEE MAKING A MISTAKE
AFTER A FEW MONTHS, BUT A FEW YEARS. AND THEN THEY BLAMED IT ON COVID.
THEY BLAMED IT ON BEING UNDERSTAFFED. TO ME RIGHT THERE IT'S SAYING IT'S THEIR FAULT.
>> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TOLD US ITS PRIVACY RULES PREVENT IT FROM COMMENTING ON INDIVIDUAL CASES
LIKE THE SWORDS. AND NO ONE FROM THE AGENCY WOULD GIVE US AN ON-CAMERA INTERVIEW. BUT KILOLO KIJAKAZI, THE FORMER
ACTING COMMISSIONER OF SOCIAL SECURITY, GAVE THIS TESTIMONY BEFORE A CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE LATE LAST MONTH.
>> HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING OVERPAYMENT NOTICES IN A YEAR? >> FOR FY-2022, 1,028,389. FOR FY-2023, 986,912.
>> SEEMS LIKE AN AWFUL LOT. >> NOBODY KNOWS THIS IS HAPPENING TO SO MANY PEOPLE. >> THIS IS NOT A STORY SOCIAL
SECURITY WANTS TO PUBLICIZE. >> OH, NO. >> NO. >> TERRY SAVAGE WRITES A
NATIONALLY SYNDICATED COLUMN ON PERSONAL FINANCE. LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF, AN ECONOMICS PROFESSOR AT BOSTON
UNIVERSITY CREATED SOFTWARE TO HELP PEOPLE MAXIMIZE THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS. TOGETHER, THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO
LAW ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY CALL SOCIAL SECURITY HORROR STORIES, CAUSED LARGELY, THEY SAY, BY THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION'S
OWN MISTAKES. >> THEIR MANTRA, THEIR RULE, IS OUR MISTAKE IS YOUR MISTAKE. AND YOU CAN APPEAL IT OR ASK FOR
A WAIVER. THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL WAIVE THIS CLAWBACK IS IF YOU ARE INDIGENT, REALLY, REALLY POOR.
>> THE WORST PART OF IT IS THEY HAVE ALL THE POWER BECAUSE THEY SAY, IF YOU DON'T PAY US BACK, WE'RE JUST GOING TO CUT YOUR
BENEFIT CHECK. IMAGINE. PEOPLE LIVE ON THOSE CHECKS. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU GET NO
CHECK OR A SMALL AMOUNT? >> IF SOMEONE'S BEEN PAID TOO MUCH IN SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY
HAVE TO PAY IT BACK? >> BECAUSE YOU RELIED ON IT SO YOU MAY HAVE DECIDED TO RETIRE EARLY OR TO SPEND THE MONEY ON
YOUR CHILD'S TUITION. >> OVERPAYMENTS HAVE EXISTED FOR DECADES AND CAUSED PEOPLE A LOT OF FINANCIAL PAIN.
BUT FIXING THE PROBLEM HAS NEVER BEEN A HIGH PRIORITY ON CAPITOL HILL. IN 2015, CONGRESS DID APPROVE A
MEASURE TO REDUCE OVERPAYMENTS BY GIVING SOCIAL SECURITY MORE TIMELY ACCESS TO PAYROLL DATA. BUT EIGHT YEARS LATER, THE
AGENCY STILL HASN'T PUT THE NEW SYSTEM IN PLACE. AGING TECHNOLOGY AND STAFF SHORTAGES HAVE TAKEN A TOLL ON
SOCIAL SECURITY. IN 2022, THE AGENCY'S WORKFORCE HIT A 25-YEAR LOW, AS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CLAIMING BENEFITS KEPT
GOING UP. WHEN WE TOOK A CLOSE LOOK AT SOCIAL SECURITY'S ANNUAL REPORTS TO CONGRESS, WE DISCOVERED
SOMETHING ELSE HAS BEEN GOING UP AS WELL, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE AGENCY HAS BEEN CLAWING BACK FROM THE CHECKS OF PEOPLE WITH
OVERPAYMENTS. JEAN RODRIGUEZ, WHO'S 73 YEARS OLD, TOLD US HER RETIREMENT CHECKS HAD BEEN WITHHELD FOR THE
PAST TWO YEARS. A FORMER SCHOOL CAFETERIA WORKER, SHE STARTED RECEIVING BENEFITS IN 2014.
BUT FOUR YEARS LATER, SHE AND HER HUSBAND, GLENN, WERE ASKED TO COME TO THE LOCAL SOCIAL SECURITY OFFICE IN VIRGINIA
BEACH, VIRGINIA, TO SPEAK WITH A REPRESENTATIVE. >> AND HE SAYS, WE HAVE A SMALL PROBLEM.
>> HOW MUCH DID HE SAY THEY HAD OVERPAID YOU? >> $72,000. >> THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A
SMALL PROBLEM. >> NO. IT WASN'T. WE WERE BOTH DEVASTATED.
>> WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU HAPPENED? >> SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, THEY MADE A COMBINATION OF FOUR
OTHER PEOPLE IN ADDITION TO MY NUMBERS. >> SO, THEY WERE GIVING YOU BENEFITS BASED NOT JUST ON YOUR
SALARY BUT ON FOUR OTHER PEOPLE'S SALARY ALL COMBINED. >> RIGHT. >> HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
>> GOOD QUESTION. DON'T KNOW HOW THEY DID IT. >> DID SOCIAL SECURITY ADMIT TO YOU THAT THIS WAS THEIR FAULT?
>> YES, THEY DID. >> BUT THE AGENCY SAID THE RODRIGUEZS HAD TO PAY THE MONEY BACK ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY COULD
AFFORD TO DO. JEAN AND GLENN OWN THEIR HOME, AND GLENN GETS A PENSION FROM THE NAVY.
>> IF IT WAS SOMETHING I KNEW I DID TOTALLY WRONG, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO COME AFTER ME. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY
CALCULATED IT AND THEN THEY WAITED FOUR YEARS TO FIGURE IT OUT. >> IN A STATEMENT, THE SOCIAL
SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TOLD US, OUR PAYMENT ACCURACY RATES ARE HIGH, YET EVEN SMALL ERROR RATES ADD UP TO SUBSTANTIAL IMPROPER
PAYMENT AMOUNTS. THE AGENCY SAID IT'S REQUIRED BY LAW TO RECOVER THIS MONEY AND ADDED THAT OVERPAYMENTS ARE NOT
NECESSARILY THE AGENCY'S FAULT. THEY CAN HAPPEN WHEN A BENEFICIARY DOES NOT TIMELY REPORT WORK OR OTHER FINANCIAL
INFORMATION. THERE'S NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG SOCIAL SECURITY CAN WAIT TO COLLECT AN
OVERPAYMENT. MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO, ROY FARMER OF GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN, GOT A LETTER FROM
SOCIAL SECURITY ASKING WHETHER HE'D FORGOTTEN TO PAY A DEBT HE DIDN'T KNOW HE HAD. >> THIS IS AN ALLEGED
OVERPAYMENT FROM 20 YEARS AGO. >> YES, SIR. >> WHEN YOU WERE 11 OR 12 YEARS OLD.
>> CORRECT. >> ROY FARMER GREW UP IN ROYAL RURAL CADILLAC, MICHIGAN, IN A FAMILY OF SIX THAT STRUGGLED TO
MAKE ENDS MEET. >> WE ENDED UP NEAR HOMELESSNESS A COUPLE OF TIMES, AT ONE POINT LIVING, SIX OF US IN A CAMPER
TRAILER. >> HE WAS BORN WITH CEREBRAL PALSY. >> I HAD LEG BRACES.
I HAD TO WALK WITH A CHILD SIZE VERSION OF AN OLD PERSON WALKER. >> AND YOU HAD SURGERIES. YOU HAD DOCTORS VISITS.
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> YOU HAD IT TREATED. >> YEAH. SO, THANKFULLY THEY WERE ABLE TO
GET ME TO A POINT WHERE I COULD LIVE A MORE OR LESS NORMAL LIFE WITH SOME LIMITATIONS. >> HE'S 33 YEARS OLD NOW AND
WORKS FULL TIME. BUT WHEN HE WAS A CHILD, HIS MOTHER RECEIVED BENEFITS ON HIS BEHALF.
SOCIAL SECURITY TOLD HIM THAT WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD, THE AGENCY DETERMINED HE WAS NO LONGER MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE FOR
BENEFITS, AND HIS MOTHER RECEIVED $4,902 TOO MUCH. HIS MOTHER DIED A FEW YEARS AGO, AND THE AGENCY IS INSISTING HE
PAY BACK THE MONEY BECAUSE IT BELIEVES HE CAN AFFORD TO DO SO. >> COULD YOU AFFORD $4,902? >> NO, SIR.
THAT MUCH IS ABOUT A SIXTH OF MY ANNUAL TAKE-HOME PAY. >> LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE WE SPOKE TO, ROY FARMER COULDN'T
FIND A LAWYER TO HELP HIM. THERE'S LITTLE FINANCIAL INCENTIVE FOR ATTORNEYS TO TAKE ON THESE CASES.
IT TOOK FARMER NINE MONTHS TO GET THE DOCUMENTS IN HIS SOCIAL SECURITY FILE. HE WAS LOOKING FOR THE AGENCY'S
EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS NO LONGER MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE FOR BENEFITS WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD. BUT HE SAYS THERE WAS NONE.
>> AND THEY TOLD ME, WE PROBABLY HAD IT AT SOME POINT, BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT NOW. >> AND THEY ADMIT THERE'S NO
EVIDENCE YOU'RE AT FAULT, BUT THEY'RE STILL COMING AFTER YOU FOR IT. >> YES, SIR.
>> PEOPLE AT SOCIAL SECURITY HAVE TOLD US, LOOK, THIS IS A LAW, THIS HAS TO BE CHANGED THROUGH CONGRESS.
>> IT'S NOT, ANDERSON, BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS THAT IF EQUITY AND GOOD CONSCIENCE DEMANDS THAT THE CLAWBACK BE WAIVED, IT SHOULD BE
WAIVED. >> LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF, THE ECONOMIST WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT OVERPAYMENTS, IS TALKING ABOUT A
SPECIFIC PART OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY ACT THAT SAYS THE AGENCY SHOULD NOT RECOVER AN OVERPAYMENT IF DOING SO WOULD BE
AGAINST EQUITY AND GOOD CONSCIENCE. THE PROBLEM, HE SAYS, IS THAT SOCIAL SECURITY INTERPRETS THAT
PHRASE IN A VERY NARROW WAY. >> SO, THE AGENCY ITSELF, SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, HAS A LOT OF DISCRETION.
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> OH, SURE, THEY DO. >> FINANCIALLY, THE LONG-TERM PICTURE IS NOT GOOD.
AND THEY'VE TRAINED THE STAFF, LOOK, YOUR JOB IS TO COLLECT EVERY PENNY YOU CAN NO MATTER WHAT.
>> THE SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND FOR RETIREMENT AND DISABILITY BENEFITS IS EXPECTED TO BE DEPLETED AROUND 2035
BECAUSE THE BENEFITS BEING PAID OUT ARE GREATER THAN THE PAYROLL TAXES COMING IN. BUT KOTLIKOFF AND SAVAGE ARGUE
THAT CLAWING BACK MONEY FROM THE ELDERLY AND DISABLED ISN'T GOING TO MAKE MUCH OF A DENT IN THAT PROBLEM.
THEY SAY THERE ARE SOME SIMPLE THINGS CONGRESS AND THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION COULD DO TO ALLEVIATE THE STRESS AND
FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY CAUSED Y OVERPAYMENTS. FOR EXAMPLE -- >> SHOULDN'T THERE BE A STATUTE
OF LIMITATIONS SO THAT AFTER 18 MONTHS, IT'S THEIR MISTAKE AND THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, NOT THE PERSON WHO MISTAKENLY
RECEIVED AND LIVED ON THAT BENEFIT CHECK? >> IF IT'S MORE THAN A YEAR OR TWO --
>> JUST WAIVE IT. JUST SAY, OUR MISTAKE, YOU'RE FINE. >> ROY FARMER IN MICHIGAN HAS
BEEN WAITING FOUR MONTHS TO APPEAL HIS CASE BEFORE AN ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE WHO WORKS FOR SOCIAL SECURITY.
JEAN AND GLENN RODRIGUEZ TOLD US THEY'VE BEEN WAITING FOUR YEARS. AS FOR THE SWORDS IN CHICAGO, STEVEN AND BECKY TOLD US THEY
WERE TIRED OF FIGHTING THE GOVERNMENT AND HAD DECIDED NOT TO APPEAL THE MATTER ANY FURTHER.
>> I JUST FIGURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE UP OUR RETIREMENT FUNDS. >> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU
CAN -- >> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY, YEAH. BECAUSE THEY SAID WE'D HAVE TO PAY IT BACK IN THREE YEAR'S
TIME. WE'D HAVE TO COME UP WITH $1,400 A MONTH TO PAY IT BACK. WE DON'T HAVE HAT KIND OF
MONEY. >> WHEN STEVEN SWORD WAS NOT WORKING THE NIGHT SHIFT AND BECKY SWORD WAS NOT WORKING THE
DAY SHIFT, THEY WERE PREPARING TO HAND OVER MOST OF THE $60,000 THEY HAD SUPPORT. RECEIVED PHONE CALLS FROM THE
AGENCY SAYING THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY THE MONEY BACK AFTER ALL. IN MARCH, THE NEW SOCIAL
SECURITY COMMISSIONER MARTIN O'MALLEY CITED OUR STORY WHEN HE TOLD A SENATE COMMITTEE HE WAS CHANGING THE WAY HIS AGENCY
HANDLES OVERPAYMENTS. SOCIAL SECURITY SAYS IT WILL NO LONGER WITHHOLD MORE THAN 10% OF A MONTHLY CHECK TO RECOVER AN
OVERPAYMENT, AND IT WILL MAKE EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO RECEIVER WAIVERS IN CASES WHERE THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF FRAUD.
>>> HOW TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT OVERPAID BY SOCIAL SECURITY AT 60 MINUTE YOEF >>> SOMETHING AKIN TO THE
CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH IS HAPPENING IN THE EASTERN PACIFIC, AN INTERNATIONAL MAD DASH, NOT FOR ONE PRECIOUS METAL
BUT FOR VAST QUANTITIES OF MINERALS SCATTERED ACROSS THE OCEAN FLOOR, VITAL FOR EVERYTHING FROM ELECTRIC CARS TO
DEFENSE SYSTEMS. TO AVOID A FREE FOR ALL, 168 COUNTRIES, INCLUDING CHINA, HAVE SIGNED ON TO THE UNITED NATIONS
LAW OF THE SEA, A TREATY THAT DIVVIES UP THE INTERNATIONAL SEABED. CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT IS THE
UNITED STATES, KEPT OUT OF THE RACE BY A GROUP OF REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHO SAY THE TREATY UNDERMINES AMERICAN POWER.
DESPITE EFFORTS BY FIVE PRESIDENTS, RATIFYING THE TREATY HAS HIT A WALL IN THE SENATE YEAR AFTER YEAR.
AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN MARCH, SEABED MINING IS SET TO BEGIN NEXT YEAR, AND CHINA IS IN PLACE TO DOMINATE IT.
NOW, A GROUP OF FORMER DIPLOMATS AND MILITARY LEADERS IS TRYING AGAIN TO BREAK THE LOG JAM IN THE SENATE.
>> Reporter: 1,000 MILES FROM U.S. WATERS BETWEEN MEXICO AND HAWAII LIES THIS PATCH OF PACIFIC OCEAN.
IT LOOKS TRANQUIL, BUT IT'S A LOCUS OF FIERCE COMPETITION. TO SEE WHAT'S AT STAKE, YOU HAVE TO PLUNGE TO THE BOTTOM.
SEE THOSE POTATO-SIZED ROCKS? THEY'RE FILLED WITH COBALT, NICKEL, MANGANESE, AND COPPER, SOME OF THE MOST VALUABLE METALS
ON EARTH. >> ALL RIGHT, START COMING UP. >> Reporter: IN 2019, WE WENT ALONG ON A PILOT EXPEDITION, AS
A CREW WITH CANADA'S METALS COMPANY HAULED ITS SUNKEN TREASURE TO THE SURFACE. >> THAT MANY OF THEM DOWN THERE.
>> IF THEY FOUND A DEPOSIT WITH THIS MUCH METAL CONCENTRATION ON LAND, IT WOULD BE A BONANZA THAT NOBODY WOULD STOP TALKING ABOUT
FOR YEARS. >> TODAY THE RACE IS ON FOR THE ESTIMATED TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF STRATEGIC MINERALS ON THE
OCEAN FLOOR, VITAL FOR NEXT GENERATION ELECTRONICS. COUNTRIES THAT RATIFIED THE LAW OF THE SEA TREATY NOW ARE
TESTING GIANT ROBOTS THAT VACUUM THE MINERALS FROM THE SEA FLOOR. THEY'RE CARVING UP AND LAYING CLAIM TO PARCELS ON THE SEABED
COVERED WITH RICH BALLS OF ORE. CHINA HAS FIVE SITES, 90,000 SQUARE MILES, THE MOST OF ANY COUNTRY.
THE UNITED STATES, NONE, BLOCKED FROM EVEN PUTTING A TOE IN THE WATER BY ITS REFUSAL TO RATIFY THE TREATY.
>> WE ARE NOT ONLY NOT AT THE TABLE, BUT WE'RE OFF THE FIELD. THE UNITED STATES PROBABLY HAS GOT THE MOST TO GAIN OF ANY
COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IF IT WERE PARTY TO THE LAW OF THE SEA CONVENTION. AND CONVERSELY, WE ACTUALLY
PROBABLY HAVE THE MOST TO LOSE BY NOT BEING PART OF IT. >> JOHN BELLINGER IS A PARTNER AT THE D.C. LAW FIRM, ARNOLD &
PORTER. IN 2012, HE TESTIFIED IN FAVOR OF THE TREATY IN SENATE HEARINGS AS A FORMAL LEGAL ADVISER TO
GEORGE W. BUSH. HE TOLD US BUSH WAS NO FAN OF U.N. TREATIES, BUT HE SUPPORTED THIS ONE, NOT ONLY FOR CODIFYING
ACCESS TO THE DEEP SEABED, BUT ALSO FOR SAFEGUARDING THE FREE NAVIGATION OF U.S. SHIPS AROUND THE WORLD.
BELLINGER TOLD US SUPPORT WAS SO BROAD IN 2012, HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A SLAM DUNK. >> PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS
IN FAVOR? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> U.S. INTELLIGENCE? >> YES.
>> MILITARY? MAJOR BUSINESS GROUPS? BIG OIL? >> YES.
AND ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS AS WELL. HARD TO FIND ANY TREATY OR PROBABLY ANY PIECE OF
LEGISLATION THAT HAS SUCH BROAD SUPPORT. >> Reporter: YET IT FAILED. THE CONSERVATIVE HERITAGE
FOUNDATION CONVINCED 34 REPUBLICAN SENATORS TO TURN THUMBS DOWN, SAYING IT WOULD SUBJUGATE THE UNITED STATES TO
THE U.N. >> MY PROBLEM IS WITH SOVEREIGNTY. >> Reporter: THE LAW OF THE SEA
WAS SUNK. >> IT SURPRISED ME THAT A NUMBER OF SENATORS WOULD TELL US IN THE GOVERNMENT, WE KNOW BETTER THAN
YOU. WE KNOW BETTER THAN OUR U.S. MILITARY. WE KNOW BETTER THAN U.S.
BUSINESS. >> DOES THE AMERICAN POSITION MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU? >> IT HONESTLY DOES NOT.
THE OPPOSITION WAS NOT ON NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS OR ON BUSINESS REASONS. IT, TO ME, SEEMED JUST A
REFLEXIVE, IDEOLOGICAL OPPOSITION TO JOINING THE TREATY. >> Reporter: SINCE 2012, WHILE
REPEATED ATTEMPTS TO RATIFY THE TREATY HAVE FAILED, CHINA HAS MADE DEEP SEA MINING A NATIONAL PRIORITY.
IT ALREADY HAS A NEAR MONOPOLY OF THE CRITICAL MINERALS ON LAND. NOW IT'S SET TO LOCK UP THE
BOUNTY ON THE SEA FLOOR. AMBASSADOR JOHN NEGROPONTE, A FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE IN THE BUSH
ADMINISTRATION, TOLD US, CHINA'S AGGRESSIVE ACTIONS SHOULD BE SETTING OFF ALARMS. >> WHAT'S CHANGED SINCE 2012?
>> THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA AND ITS MORE ASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR ON THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE, PARTICULARLY IN THE SOUTH
CHINA SEA. AND THEN WITH RESPECT TO DEEP SEABED MINING, THEY'RE EATING OUR LUNCH.
THEY'VE GOT ACCESS TO FIVE SITES. RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE ACCESS TO NONE.
>> Reporter: JOHN NEGROPONTE IS ONE OF A NUMBER OF SENIOR REPUBLICANS URGING THE SENATE TO RECONSIDER AND RATIFY THE
TREATY. IF IT DOESN'T, THE U.S. CAN'T GET A LICENSE FROM THE U.N.-BACKED SEABED AUTHORITY TO
MINE THE OCEAN BOTTOM. IT WON'T HAVE A SAY IN DRAFTING ENVIRONMENTAL RULES FOR MINING THE DEEP.
ABSENT THE U.S., CHINA IS THE HEAVYWEIGHT IN THE ROOM. >> SO, DOES IT SEEM TO YOU THAT WE'RE JUST, SORT OF, GIVING THIS
RESOURCE TO THE CHINESE WITHOUT ANY PUSHBACK FROM US? >> WE ARE CONCEDING. IF WE'RE NOT AT THE TABLE AND
WE'RE NOT MEMBERS OF THE SEABED AUTHORITY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE A VOICE IN WRITING THE ENVIRONMENTAL GUIDELINES FOR
DEEP SEABED MINING. WELL, WHO WOULD YOU PREFER TO SEE WRITING THOSE GUIDELINES, THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
OR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? >> IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO A CONSERVATIVE TO SAY, THESE MINERALS THAT ARE IN THE DEEP
SEABED ARE SO IMPORTANT TO THE UNITED STATES, WE ARE DONE WITHOUT THOSE. LET'S PUT AN INTERNATIONAL
BUREAUCRACY IN CHARGE OF GETTING US ACCESS TO THEM. >> Reporter: STEVEN GROVES IS A SENIOR POLICY ANALYST AT THE
HERITAGE FOUNDATION. HE WAS SPECIAL COUNSEL IN DONALD TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE. IN 2012, GROVES TESTIFIED THAT
THE U.S. DIDN'T NEED ANYONE'S PERMISSION TO MINE THE SEABED. HIS VIEWS HAVEN'T CHANGED. >> WHAT BUSINESSMAN IN THEIR
RIGHT MIND SAID, I'M GOING TO INVEST TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO A COMPANY THAT I WILL THEN HAVE TO GO AND ASK
PERMISSION FROM AN INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION TO ENGAGE IN DEEP SEABED MINING. >> BUT NO GENERAL COUNSEL, NO
BOARD OF A COMPANY, IF FACED WITH A CLEAR RIGHT UNDER A TREATY THAT SAYS, YOU CAN GO AND DO THIS, OR TAKING AN ACTION
THAT'S FLATLY CONTRARY TO THE TREATY, OF COURSE THE COMPANIES ARE GOING TO SAY, I WANT TO TAKE THE CLEARLY LAWFUL ROUTE BEFORE
I INVEST BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. >> Reporter: LAWYER JOHN BELLINGER TOLD US U.S. COMPANIES INTERESTED IN MINING THE SEABED
WANT THE LEGAL GUARANTEES OF THE TREATY. BUT EVEN AS OTHER COUNTRIES MOVE AHEAD, STEVEN GROVES INSISTS
AMERICAN COMPANIES ARE STAYING AWAY SH NOT BECAUSE THE U.S. HASN'T RATIFIED A TREATY BUT BECAUSE DEEP SEA MINING ISN'T
VIABLE. >> IF CHINA WANTS TO GO AND THINK THAT IT'S ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE TO DRAG THOSE NODULES
UP TO THE SURFACE AND PROCESS THEM, LET THEM DO IT. THE UNITED STATES HAS DECIDED TO STAY OUT OF THE GAME.
THE ONE U.S. COMPANY THAT HAD RIGHTS TO THE DEEP SEABED GOT OUT OF THE GAME. THAT'S LOCKHEED MARTIN.
>> U.S. COMPANIES WILL TELL YOU IT'S BECAUSE THERE'S UNCERTAINTY. >> WHAT U.S. COMPANIES?
>> LOCKHEED. >> LOCKHEED IS OUT OF THE GAME. >> THEY'LL TELL YOU -- THEIR INVESTORS, THEIR COUNSEL ALL
SAY, IF WE DON'T HAVE THIS TREATY, WE'RE GETTING OUT OF THIS. >> THEY'RE ALREADY OUT OF THE
IT. THEY QUIT. >> WELL, THAT'S A BUSINESS DECISION THEY MADE.
>> Reporter: LOCKHEED MARTIN HAS NOT QUIT. THE DEFENSE GIANT HAD RIGHTS TO FOUR PACIFIC SEABED SITES.
IT SOLD TWO AND IS HOLDING ONTO TWO IN CASE THE TREATY PASSES. BUT LOCKHEED TOLD US, IF THE U.S. DOESN'T RATIFY THE TREATY,
IT CAN'T DIVE IN. AMBASSADOR JOHN NEGROPONTE TOLD US THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION IS STANDING IN THE WAY.
>> WHAT HERITAGE IS SAYING IS, WE DON'T EVEN WANT TO GIVE THEM A CHANCE. WE KNOW THE ANSWER ALREADY.
AND I -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S, SORT OF, HYPOTHETICAL THINKING. THE PRAGMATIC APPROACH WOULD BE
TO SAY, OKAY, LET US HAVE ACCESS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. >> WE COULD END UP BEING EVEN MORE DEPENDENT THAN WE ARE TODAY
ON CHINA FOR ACCESS TO THESE MINERALS? >> IF THEY END UP BEING THE LARGEST PRODUCER AND WE'RE NOT
PRODUCING AT ALL, THAT MIGHT PLACE US IN A DIFFICULT ECONOMIC POSITION. >> BUT NATIONAL SECURITY FEARS
OF CHINA'S GROWING PROWESS IN THE DEEP ARE ABOUT MORE THAN MINING. IN MARCH, A LETTER SIGNED BY 346
FORMER POLITICAL, NATIONAL SECURITY, AND MILITARY LEADERS, WARNED THAT CHINA WAS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AMERICA'S ABSENCE
FROM THE TREATY TO PURSUE OVERALL NAVAL SUPREMACY. >> OVER THE LAST DECADE -- AND I'VE DONE THE MATH -- CHINA HAS
BUILT 20% MORE WARSHIPS VUITTON BY TONNAGE THAN THE UNITED STATES HAS. THEY BUILT -- WHILE THE U.S.
NAVY BUILT 66. IT IS A TRULY MASSIVE EXPANSION IN NAVAL POWER. >> THOMAS SHUGART IS A FORMER
U.S. NAVY SUBMARINE WARFARE OFFICER AND A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE CENTER FOR A NEW AMERICAN SECURITY.
HE TOLD US, CHINA IS FLEXING ITS MARITIME MUSCLE BY CLAIMING THE SOUTH CHINA SEA AS ITS PRIVATE OCEAN.
IT HAS CHALLENGED THE TREATY'S NAVIGATION LAWS THAT ENSURE SAFE PASSAGE, BY HARASSING PASSING SHIPS, INCLUDING THE U.S. NAVY.
IT HAS FIRED WATER CANNONS AT ITS NEIGHBORS, CAUSED COLLISIONS, EVEN FLASHED A MILITARY-GRADE LASER AT SHIPS.
STEVEN GROVES AT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION SAYS, THAT'S WHY THE TREATY IS MEANINGLESS. >> IT'S CHINA WHO IS A PARTY TO
THE TREATY, WHO DOESN'T OBEY THE RULES OF THE ROAD. THEY'RE THE ONES GETTING INTO NEAR COLLISIONS WITH U.S.
VESSELS IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. THE UNITED STATES RESPECTS AND ADHERES TO INTERNATIONAL LAW. IT IS THE CHINESE WHO ARE
THE STOP LOSS HERE. AND THE IDEA THAT THE U.S. JOINING THE TREATY WOULD SOMEHOW CHANGE THAT CHINESE BEHAVIOR,
HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY. >> EVERY TIME THE U.S. POINTS AT THEM AND SAYS, YOU'RE VIOLATING THE LAW, THEY VERY QUICKLY TURN
BACK AND SAY, WELL, YOU'RE NOT A SIGNATORY. WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT?
WE ARE IN A MESSAGING CONTEST, AN EFFORT TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS ALL OVER THE WORLD AGAINST CLEARLY WHAT IS OUR GREATEST
STRATEGIC COMPETITOR. >> FORMER SUBMARINE CAPTAIN THOMAS SHUGART TOLD US, BEING OUTSIDE THE TREATY UNDERCUTS
AMERICAN CREDIBILITY, WHILE CHINA IS LASER FOCUSED ON BUILDING ITS MARITIME POWER. HE TOLD US CHINA'S DEEP SEA
MINERS HAVE A SECOND MISSION, COLLECTING INFORMATION FOR THE CHINESE MILITARY. >> THE TECHNOLOGY THAT THESE
COMPANIES USE TO MINE THE SEABED, DO THEY ALSO HAVE A MILITARY APPLICATION? >> ABSOLUTELY.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO FIND SUBMARINES IN THE OCEAN, YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE BOTTOM LOOKS LIKE.
YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE TEMPERATURE IS. YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE SALINITY IS.
THE CHINA IS USING CIVILIAN VESSELS TO, SORT OF, ON THE SLY DO THOSE SURVEYS, THEN THAT COULD IMPROVE THEIR ABILITY TO
FIND U.S. AND ALLIED SUBMARINES OVER TIME AS THEY BETTER UNDERSTAND THE UNDERSEA ENVIRONMENT.
>> Reporter: BACK IN D.C., AMBASSADOR NEGROPONTE'S GROUP IS LOBBYING THE REPUBLICAN HOLDOUTS.
WE DECIDED TO CALL THE SENATORS WHO TORPEDOED THE TREATY IN 2012 TO SEE IF ANYTHING HAD CHANGED. WE FOUND THEIR OPPOSITION AS
STRONG AS EVER. WITH THE U.S. SENATE LOCKED IN STALEMATE, CHINA IS FORGING AHEAD.
>>> I'M LESLEY STAHL. STICK