>>> UKRAINE HAS DOCUMENTED CASES OF MORE THAN 19,000 CHILDREN ABDUCTED BY RUSSIA DURING THE WAR.
BUT THEY WORRY THE ACTUAL NUMBER IS CLOSER TO 300,000 CHILDREN. >> PUTIN! >> WE WANTED TO KNOW HOW RUSSIA
WAS DOING IT AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO UKRAINE'S MISSING CHILDREN. "60 MINUTES" FOLLOWED ONE BRAVE
GRANDMOTHER'S MISSION TO RESCUE HER GRANDSON FROM THE RUSSIANS.
>>> IT WAS AMERICA'S DEADLIEST WILDFIRE IN 100 YEARS. AT LEAST 99 PEOPLE WERE KILLED. 2,000 HOMES AND BUSINESSES
DESTROYED. TONIGHT WE'LL EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED ON THE ISLAND OF MAUI. >> YOUR ENGINE WAS RIGHT THERE?
>> YEP, RIGHT THERE. >> AND YOU'LL HEAR AN AMAZING RESCUE STORY FROM INSIDE THE INFERNO.
>> YOU CAN'T TEACH THAT KIND OF HEROISM.
♪ >>> SO, YOU ARE BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN'S BEST FRIEND. HIS UNDERBOSS.
>> DON'T GET ME WRONG -- >> YOU ALSO HAVE A BREAKOUT ROLE AS TONY SOPRANO'S MOST TRUSTED ADVISER.
WHO HAS THIS LIFE? LITTLE STEVEN VAN ZANDT. >> I DON'T WANT TO LIKEN BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN AS A MOB BOSS, BUT
YOU'VE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE. YOU'VE DONE THAT DRILL. YOU KNEW -- >> I THOUGHT IT WAS DYNAMICS.
I KNOW BEING THE ONLY GUY WHO'S NOT AFRAID TO TELL THE BOSS THE TRUTH. >>> I'M LESLEY STAHL.
>> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. >> I'M JOHN WE'RE THEME.
>> I'M CECILIA VEGA. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES AND MORE TONIGHT ON THIS SPECIAL 90-MINUTE
EDITION OF "60 MINUTES."
>>> IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR UKRAINIAN FAMILIES TO SHIELD THEIR CHILDREN FROM THE CONSTANT VIOLENCE OF RUSSIA'S WAR.
BUT TONIGHT WE WILL TELL YOU ABOUT A LESSER KNOWN AND PERHAPS MORE SINISTER DANGER THEY FACE, THE RUSSIAN ABDUCTION OF
UKRAINIAN CHILDREN. IN THE CHAOS OF WAR, EXACT NUMBERS ARE HARD TO COME BY. OFFICIALLY, THE UKRAINIAN
GOVERNMENT HAS DOCUMENTED MORE THAN 19,000 CHILDREN TAKEN BY RUSSIA, BUT TOLD US THEY WORRY THE ACTUAL NUMBER COULD BE
CLOSER TO 300,000 CHILDREN. THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT HAS CHARGED RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN AND HIS
COMMISSIONER FOR CHILDREN'S RIGHTS WITH THE WAR CRIMES OF UNLAWFUL DEPORTATION AND TRANSFER OF CHILDREN.
THIS SUMMER WE FOLLOWED ONE UKRAINIAN GRANDMOTHER ON AN UNDERCOVER MISSION, DEEP INTO ENEMY TERRITORY, TO FIND HER
GRANDSON BEFORE HE COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED. POLINA PACKED WHAT LITTLE SHE COULD AND CAUGHT A 20-HOUR TRAIN
FROM POLAND TO KYIV TO MEET WITH A NONPROFIT CALLED SAVE UKRAINE. THEY PROMISED TO HELP HER FIND 9-YEAR-OLD NIKITA.
SHE TRAVELED LIGHT BUT CARRIED THE WEIGHT OF A GRANDMOTHER'S WORRY. >> Translator: HE MEANS
EVERYTHING TO ME. HE IS MY AIR, MY SKY, MY WATER. I LIVE FOR HIM. HE'S MY LIFE.
I LOVE HIM VERY MUCH. >> Reporter: POLINA, WHO ASKED US NOT TO USE HER LAST NAME, IS IN THE PROCESS OF FILING FOR
GUARDIANSHIP OF HER GRANDSON. SHE LEFT UKRAINE SO SHE COULD WORK TO SUPPORT NIKITA, WHO HAS SPECIAL NEEDS.
>> Translator: THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION STOLE HIM. THEY ABDUCTED HIM. >> Reporter: DID THE RUSSIANS
ASK ANYONE FOR PERMISSION TO MOVE NIKITA? DID THEY TELL ANYONE THEY WERE MOVING HIM?
>> Translator: NO, THEY DIDN'T TELL ANYONE ANYTHING. THEY SIMPLY REMOVED HIM AND HID HIM.
>> Reporter: LAST OCTOBER NIKITA WAS LIVING IN A BOARDING SCHOOL FOR DISABLED CHILDREN WHEN RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES ORDERED ALL
86 KIDS THERE TO BE TRANSFERRED DEEPER INTO RUSSIAN-CONTROLLED TERRITORY. >> Translator: I CAME HOME AFTER
WORK, I OPENED INSTAGRAM AND THERE WAS A PICTURE OF MY CHILD, NIKITA, WITH A CAPTION, RUSSIA IS TAKING CHILDREN.
>> Reporter: POLINA SAYS THE RUSSIANS PLAYED A CRUEL GAME OF HIDE AND SEEK, MOVING NIKITA AT LEAST THREE TIMES IN EIGHT
MONTHS, INCLUDING TO AN ORPHANAGE IN RUSSIA. WHAT WERE THOSE EIGHT MONTHS LIKE FOR YOU?
>> Translator: REALLY BAD, REALLY BAD. I WOULDN'T SLEEP AT NIGHT. I DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO WORK.
I DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO LIVE BECAUSE I HAD NO ONE TO LIVE FOR. AND THEN I FOUND THIS WEBSITE,
SAVE UKRAINE, ON FACEBOOK, AND I CALLED THEM. >> Reporter: THE PHONES NEVER SEEM TO STOP RINGING AT THE SAVE
UKRAINE HEADQUARTERS IN KYIV. SO FAR THEY'VE RESCUED MORE THAN 200 KIDS FROM KINDERGARTENERS TO TEENAGERS.
WE MET THE FOUNDER, MYKOLA KULEBA, AT ONE OF SAVE UKRAINE'S SHELTERS FOR REUNITED FAMILIES. HOW LONG DO THE FAMILIES STAY
HERE? >> UP TO THREE MONTHS. >> Reporter: KULEBA SERVED AS UKRAINE'S PRESIDENTIAL
COMMISSIONER FOR CHILDREN'S RIGHTS FOR NEARLY EIGHT YEARS. NOW HE RUNS THESE SECRET RESCUE MISSIONS, WHICH RELY ON AN
UNDERGROUND NETWORK OF SAFE HOUSES AND VOLUNTEERS, INCLUDING RUSSIANS WHO OPPOSE THE WAR. >> I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY
ORGANIZATIONS INVOLVED AND VOLUNTEERS. >> Reporter: DOZENS? >> MAYBE HUNDREDS.
>> Reporter: HUNDREDS. IS THERE ONE PIECE OF ADVICE THAT EVERY MOTHER MUST KNOW BEFORE SHE STARTS THIS JOURNEY?
>> WE EXPLAINING THEM THAT RUSSIANS WILL INTIMIDATE YOU. THEY WILL BE DOING EVERYTHING TO STOP YOU, TO PROVOKE YOU.
THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD FOCUS ON YOUR CHILD. YOUR GOAL IS TO TAKE YOUR CHILD AND NOT BE AFRAID.
>> Reporter: BUT IT'S HARD NOT TO BE AFRAID. THESE WOMEN HAVE TO TRAVEL ALONE WHILE THE MEN STAY BEHIND TO
FIGHT. JUST BEFORE THE MOTHERS LEAVE, THEY GET A SAFETY BRIEFING WHERE THEY LEARN HOW TO CRAFT COVER
STORIES FOR WHEN, INEVITABLY, THEY ARE INTEGRATED BY RUSSIAN FORCES. WHEN THEY RETURN, THEIR STORIES
BECOME EVIDENCE THAT SAVE UKRAINE SENDS TO THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT. RUSSIA'S GOAL, KULEBA SAYS, IS
TO STEAL THE UKRAINIAN KIDS' FUTURE BY ERASING THEIR PAST. >> THEIR PLANS TO DESTROY UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.
THEY BRAINWASH THEM, INDOCTRINATE THEM, RUSSIFY THEM. THEY HAVE SPECIAL CLASSES FOR UKRAINIAN CHILDREN, WHEN THEY
TEACH THEM WHAT IS THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE, WHAT FUTURE THEY CAN HAVE IN RUSSIA BECAUSE ABOUT UKRAINE, IT'S ONLY BAD THINGS.
>> Reporter: WHAT RISK DO THESE CHILDREN POSE TO RUSSIA IF THEY COME BACK HOME INTO UKRAINE? >> EVERY CHILD IS A WAR CRIME
WITNESS. >> Reporter: EVERY CHILD IS A WAR CRIME WITNESS? >> EVERY CHILD.
YEAH, EVERY CHILD. >> Reporter: VLAD RUDENKO WAS 16 WHEN HE WAS TAKEN LAST OCTOBER. HE SAYS ARMED MEN SHOWED UP AT
HIS DOOR WHILE HIS MOTHER, TETIANA BODAK, WAS OUT. >> Translator: THEY TOLD ME, YOU NEED TO PACK YOUR THINGS.
I SAID, I WILL CALL MY MOM. THEY SAID, DON'T BOTHER, YOU ARE COMING WITH US ANYWAY. >> Reporter: AFTER THAT, VLAD
SAYS HE WAS ORDERED TO BOARD A BUS, PART OF A 16-VEHICLE CONVOY, FULL OF KIDS THAT DROVE TO A CAMP IN RUSSIAN-CONTROLLED%
CRIMEA. MOSCOW CLAIMS IT'S EVACUATING KIDS FROM THE FIGHTING IN EASTERN AND SOUTHERN UKRAINE.
BUT WE'VE LEARNED RUSSIA OFTEN PRESSURES POOR UKRAINIAN PARENTS TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO SCHOOLS AND THESE CAMPS, WHERE
THE KIDS SPEND THEIR DAYS WITH RUSSIAN CHILDREN. IMAGES OF HAPPY KIDS ARE THE PROPAGANDA RUSSIA WANTS THE
WORLD TO SEE. BUT SEVERAL UKRAINIAN KIDS TOLD US WHAT HAPPENS IN THESE CAMPS IS LESS ABOUT RECREATION AND
MORE ABOUT INDOCTRINATION. THEY ARE TOLD REPEATED LIES LIKE UKRAINE LOST THE WAR AND THEIR PARENTS DON'T WANT THEM.
VLAD SECRETLY SENT HIS MOTHER THIS VIDEO AND SAID, SPEAKING UKRAINIAN, TALKING ABOUT UKRAINE OR EVEN WEARING UKRAINE'S COLORS
WAS FORBIDDEN. EVERY MORNING AT A CAMP LIKE THIS, VLAD TOLD US THE UKRAINIAN CHILDREN WERE FORCED TO SING THE
RUSSIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM. VLAD REFUSED TO FALL IN LINE. ONE NIGHT, HE DECIDED TO TAKE DOWN THE RUSSIAN FLAG.
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED? >> Translator: THEY CAME OVER AND TOLD ME TO PACK UP. THEY SAID WE ARE GOING TO THE
DETENTION WARD. SO, WE WENT TO THE WARD AND I SAID, I'M NOT STAYING HERE. I'LL BREAK EVERYTHING IN HERE.
THEY TOLD ME, WE'LL CALL A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL FOR YOU THEN. BUT IN THE END, THEY LOCKED ME
UP ANYWAY IN THE DETENTION WARD FOR FIVE DAYS. >> Reporter: YOU WERE IN ISOLATION FOR FIVE DAYS?
>> Translator: YES. ONE MORE DAY AND I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE HANGED MYSELF. >> Reporter: TETIANA, WHAT DO
YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEAR THAT? >> Translator: I CAN'T. I JUST CAN'T FIND THE WORDS BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS
HE DIDN'T TELL ME. AND MAYBE I AM SCARED TO FIND OUT SOMETHING THAT I'D BETTER NOT KNOW.
>> Reporter: BY THE TIME TETIANA RESCUED VLAD WITH SAVE UKRAINE'S HELP, SHE HAD LOST EIGHT MONTHS WITH HER SON.
DID HE LOOK DIFFERENT TO YOU? >> Translator: YES. I REMEMBER HE LEFT AS A KID, BUT THEN WHEN I MET HIM AGAIN, I SAW
A MAN WITH AN ADULT VISION OF LIFE. HIS EYES JUST GAVE HIM UP. >> Reporter: POLINA COULDN'T
RISK LOSING ANY MORE TIME WITH NIKITA. THE NIGHT BEFORE SHE LEFT, SHE GATHERED GIFTS FOR HER GRANDSON.
THIS BUS STATION WAS AS FAR AS OUR CAMERAS COULD GO, BUT NINE DAYS IN, SHE MANAGED TO CALL WHILE WE WERE WITH THE SAVE
UKRAINE TEAM. A TRANSLATOR RELAID HER HARROWING TRIP. >> I WAS MOVING THERE IN A CAR
THROUGHOUT THAT MINEFIELD. THERE WAS A HEAVY SMELL OF DEAD BODIES THERE. >> Reporter: WHAT POLINA
COULDN'T TELL US OVER THE PHONE WAS THAT SHE AND SAVE UKRAINE HATCHED A PLAN TO GET PAST A BORDER CHECKPOINT NEAR THE
SCHOOL IN OCCUPIED TERRITORY WHERE NIKITA WAS HELD. SHE PRETENDED TO BE AN AID WORKER.
HER DRIVER RECORDED AS SHE WALKED INTO THE BUILDING. >> Translator: THE DIRECTOR ASKED ME, HOW DID YOU GET HERE?
I TOLD HIM, I'M A VOLUNTEER. I CAME HERE FROM POLAND AND BROUGHT YOU SOME HUMANITARIAN AID.
I NEEDED TO SAY SOMETHING TO BE ABLE TO SEE NIKITA AND FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET HIM OUT OF THERE.
THIS WAS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT. >> Reporter: AND THEN SHE FINALLY IDENTIFIED HERSELF AS NIKITA'S GRANDMOTHER AND GAVE
THE SCHOOL DIRECTOR A UKRAINIAN DOCUMENT AUTHORIZING HER TO TAKE NIKITA HOME. HE REFUSED.
>> Translator: THE DIRECTOR SAID TO ME, HE'S MINE, I'M HIS GUARDIAN. AND I SAID, BUT I'M HIS
GRANDMOTHER. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT BECAUSE HE HAS A BIOLOGICAL GRANDMOTHER WHO WILL TAKE HIM BACK.
THIS IS MY CHILD. >> Reporter: LAST YEAR VLADIMIR PUTIN CHANGED THE LAW TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR SOME UKRAINIAN
CHILDREN TO RECEIVE RUSSIAN CITIZENSHIP, ALLOWING THEM TO BE ADOPTED BY RUSSIAN FAMILIES. AND PUTIN'S TOP DEPUTY IN CHARGE
OF CHILDREN'S RIGHTS, MARIA LVOVA-BELOVA, POSTED THESE VIDEOS OF WHAT SHE DESCRIBED AS UKRAINIAN ORPHANS WITH THEIR
ADOPTIVE PARENTS. LVOVA-BELOVA HERSELF SAYS SHE ADOPTED A 15-YEAR-OLD UKRAINIAN BOY FROM THE OCCUPIED CITY OF
MARIUPOL. POLINA SHOWED US THE DOCUMENTS THAT LED HER TO BELIEVE NIKITA WAS ALSO ABOUT TO BE ADOPTED.
SO THIS IS THE UKRAINIAN BIRTH CERTIFICATE. BORN IN UKRAINE. UKRAINIAN CHILD.
AND THIS IS WHAT RUSSIA MADE AND THIS -- WHAT DOES THIS SAY? >> Translator: IT SAYS THAT HE'S A CITIZEN OF THE RUSSIAN
FEDERATION. >> Reporter: IT'S ALMOST HARD FOR ME TO GET MY HEAD AROUND THIS.
YOUR GRANDSON IS A UKRAINIAN CITIZEN, AND YOU'RE TELLING ME, YOU BELIEVE THE RUSSIANS WERE ON THE VERGE OF GIVING HIM TO A
RUSSIAN FAMILY, OF ADOPTING HIM OUT TO ANOTHER FAMILY. >> Translator: YES, YES. >> Reporter: SHE SAYS THE SCHOOL
CALLED HER UKRAINIAN DOCUMENTATION FAKE AND DEMANDED A DNA TEST. THEY KEPT POLINA WAITING FOR THE
RESULTS. FOR 70 DAYS SHE REFUSED TO BACK DOWN. UNTIL FINALLY, POLINA WAS LED
INTO A ROOM WHERE SHE HEARD THIS. >> BABUSHKA! >> Reporter: THERE TO PERSONALLY
OVERSEE THE REUNION, MARIA LVOVA-BELOVA. RUSSIAN CAMERAS RECORDED AS THE ACCUSED WAR CRIMINAL HANDED
NIKITA GIFTS. SHE ALSO MADE THEM AN OFFER. >> Translator: LVOVA-BELOVA SAID TO ME, WOULD YOU LIKE TO STAY
WITH US IN THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION MAYBE? WE WILL GIVE YOU SOME MONEY. WE WILL GIVE YOU A CAR.
>> Reporter: THEY TRIED TO GET YOU TO STAY WITH NIKITA? >>. >> Translator: YES, YES.
I SAID I DON'T NEED ANYTHING. I HAVE EVERYTHING. >> Reporter: MARIA LVOVA-BELOVA INSISTS RUSSIA DOES NOT PUT
UKRAINIAN CHILDREN UP FOR ADOPTION AND THAT IT MAKES EVERY EFFORT TO RETURN THEM. ON SOCIAL MEDIA SHE CALLED
POLINA AND NIKITA'S REUNION A JOY AND WISHED THEM A, QUOTE, HAPPY LIFE. FINALLY REUNITED, POLINA AND
NIKITA BEGAN THE LONG TRIP BACK TO SAFETY. DRIVING DAY AND NIGHT FOR A WEEK.
WE WERE WITH THE SAVE UKRAINE TEAM WHEN THEY ARRIVED IN POLAND. THEY PLAN TO LIVE HERE UNTIL THE
WAR IS OVER. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR GRANDMOTHER NOW? NIKITA TOLD ME HE WANTS TO PLAY
TOYS WITH HER. AND WITH A SMILE, HE PROUDLY SAID, THIS IS MY MOTHER, MY GRANDMOTHER.
>>> THE WILDFIRE IN AUGUST THAT RIPPED THROUGH THE HAWAIIAN TOWN OF LAHAINA WAS AMERICA'S DEADLIEST IN 100 YEARS.
AT LEAST 99 PEOPLE WERE KILLED. YOU MAY RECALL THE PICTURES OF PEOPLE JUMPING INTO THE PACIFIC OCEAN TO ESCAPE AS THE FIRE
BURNED MOST OF THE HISTORIC TOWN IN A MATTER OF HOURS. BUT THERE'S AN UNTOLD STORY ABOUT A GROUP OF FIREFIGHTERS
WHO WERE ALSO TRAPPED WHILE FIGHTING FAST-MOVING FLAMES. TONIGHT YOU WILL HEAR FROM THOSE MAUI COUNTY FIREFIGHTERS ABOUT
TWO OF THE WORST HOURS OF THEIR LIVES. THEY TOOK A STAND TO SAVE THEIR HOMETOWN WITHOUT THE THING THEY
DEPEND ON THE MOST -- WATER. THE MORNING BEGAN WITH BLUE SKIES AND WINDS GUSTING NEARLY 60 MILES AN HOUR.
>> I WAS JUST WATCHING THE OCEAN AND WATCHING WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE OCEAN AND JUST NEVER SEEING THAT BEFORE.
>> Reporter: WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE OCEAN? >> IT WAS JUST LIKE FROTH. IT WAS COMPLETELY WHITE.
AND THERE WAS LIKE WHIRLWINDS THAT WAS -- SAT OUT THERE FOR OVER AN HOUR. >> Reporter: THAT HAD BEEN
WHIPPED UP? >> YEAH, YEAH. THE WINDS WERE JUST NUTS. >> Reporter: FIREFIGHTER AINA
KOHLER DRIVES ENGINE 3. SHE GREW UP IN LAHAINA, THE ONCE POSTCARD PERFECT TOWN OF 13,000 TUCKED BETWEEN THE WEST MAUI
RANGE AND THE SPARKLING PACIFIC. IN HAWAIIAN, LAHAINA MEANS CRUEL SUN, BUT ON AUGUST 8th, IT WAS THE WIND.
WHIPPED UP BY A HURRICANE 500 MILES OFFSHORE, THAT SHOWED NO MERCY MERCY.
>> WE'RE USED TO WIND, BUT WE WEREN'T USED TO THAT KIND OF WIND. I LOOKED OUT MY WINDOW AND THERE
WAS LIKE A GIANT KIDDY POOL, ONE OF THE BIGGER ONES, FLYING THROUGH THE AIR, LIKE 100 FEET UP.
>> POWER LINE JUST WENT DOWN. >> Reporter: AT 6:30 THAT MORNING, A RESIDENT RECORDED THIS VIDEO AFTER A POWER LINE
FELL AND IGNITED THE DRY GRASS THAT COVERS MUCH OF LAHAINA'S HILL SIDE. AT MOST, THERE ARE 17
FIREFIGHTERS ON DUTY IN WEST MAUI. KOHLER'S CREW OF FOUR RELIEVED THE FIREFIGHTERS THAT FIRST
RESPONDED. >> WE HAD CONTAINED IT, MEANING IT WASN'T GETTING ANY BIGGER. SO NOW WE WERE JUST PUTTING
WATER ON ALL THE HOT SPOTS TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS -- EVERYTHING WAS FULLY OUT, JUST DOUSING EVERYTHING IN WATER.
>> Reporter: HOW LONG WERE YOU OUT THERE? >> WE WERE -- PROBABLY TILL LIKE 2:00.
THEN WE WENT ON SOME CALLS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD RIGHT NEXT DOOR, DOWNED POLES THAT WERE LEANING ON HOUSES AND DOWNED
LINES. >> Reporter: AROUND 3:00 AINA KOHLER'S CREW WAS CALLED BACK TO THE AREA OF THE MORNING
BRUSHFIRE. THIS IS POLICE VIDEO. THE HILL SIDE WAS ON FIRE AGAIN. HOW FAST WAS THE FIRE MOVING AT
THAT POINT? >> I COULDN'T TELL. I COULD TELL HOW FAST THE SMOKE WAS MOVING AND IT WASN'T EVEN
GOING UP. IT WAS JUST GOING SIDEWAYS. >> THERE'S A BIG FLAME IN HERE. >> Reporter: THE CAUSE OF THE
AFTERNOON FIRE IS STILL UNKNOWN, BUT MIKE WALKER HAD WARNED HAWAIIAN LAWMAKERS ABOUT THE CHANGE OF OVERGROWN GRASS HERE
FOR FIVE YEARS. SO HOW MUCH OF THIS IS NATIVE TO HAWAII? >> NONE OF IT.
>> Reporter: WALKER IS IN CHARGE OF FIRE PROTECTION FOR HAWAII'S DEPARTMENT OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES.
THE TYPE OF GRASS HE SHOWED US IS FROM AFRICA. IT WAS BROUGHT HERE A CENTURY AGO FOR CATTLE GRAZING BECAUSE
IT GROWS FAST EVEN WITH LITTLE WATER. WHAT CAN YOU DO TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS ISN'T A TINDERBOX?
>> WELL, A LOT OF THE LAND RIGHT NOW IS JUST UNMANAGED. IT'S EITHER FOLKS DON'T HAVE THE FINANCES OR IT'S NOT
ECONOMICALLY WORTH IT TO WORK THE LAND, OR THEY'RE JUST BANKING THE LAND FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT.
I THINK YOU CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DO NOTHING. >> Reporter: ON AUGUST 8th, A FEW MINUTES AFTER 3:00, WIND
CARRIED BURNING GRASS TOWARD HOMES HALF A MILE AWAY. >> AND BY THE TIME I REPORTED THAT OVER THE RADIO, EVERY
STRUCTURE I COULD SEE WAS ON FIRE. >> Reporter: 6'4" KEAHI HO IS BASED IN LAHAINA ON LADDER 3.
HE MAN'S ITS BIGGEST WEAPON -- A CANNON THAT SHOOTS 2,000 GALLONS OF WATER A MINUTE. >> IT WAS JUST BLOW AWAY, YOU
KNOW. I COULD STICK IT RIGHT IN A WINDOW AND PUT OUT THAT ROOM, BUT THE WHOLE REST OF THE HOUSE
IS ON FIRE. AND THEN EVERY OTHER HOUSE IS ON FIRE. >> Reporter: THEN SOMETHING HE'D
NEVER EXPERIENCED LEFT HIM STUNNED. THE HYDRANTS STARTED TO RUN DRY. >> IT WAS A REAL LOW POINT FOR
ME BECAUSE -- WE JUST -- I KNEW THAT WE HAD LOST, YOU KNOW. WE WERE GOING TO REALLY -- THIS WAS GOING TO BE WORSE THAN WE
COULD IMAGINE. >> Reporter: THE COUNTY'S DEPARTMENT OF WATER SUPPLY TOLD US THE FIRE CAUSED MORE THAN
2,000 PIPE BREAKS, BLEEDING WATER OUT OF THE SYSTEM. >> IT WAS JUST SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE THAT I HEARD THAT THE --
WHERE MY MOM'S OFFICE IS, WHICH IS A LONG WAYS AWAY FROM WHERE I WAS, WAS ON FIRE. AND THEN TO KNOW THAT IT WAS
THERE AND TO KNOW THAT I WAS RUNNING OUT OF WATER, I WAS LIKE, MAN, IT'S OVER. LIKE, WE'RE GOING TO KEEP
TRYING, BUT THERE'S -- IT'S OVER. >> Reporter: THIS WAS THE VIEW FROM INSIDE A FIRE TRUCK.
BLACK SKIES LIT BY AN INFERNO THAT STRETCHED FOR BLOCKS. FIREFIGHTERS DIDN'T HAVE THE WATER OR THE CREWS TO STOP IT.
>> COME IN, COME IN. >> Reporter: RESIDENTS SAY THEY NEVER RECEIVED AN EVACUATION ORDER, SO BY 4:00 P.M., POLICE
WERE RACING AROUND TOWN TO GET PEOPLE OUT. >> LET'S GO! HURRY UP!
[ BLEEP ] HURRY UP! >> Reporter: AT THE SAME TIME, REINFORCEMENTS STARTED TO ARRIVE FROM OTHER FIRE STATIONS ACROSS
MAUI, INCLUDING 26-YEAR-OLD TANNER MOSHER. HE WAS WITH ENGINE 6. >> ONCE YOU GOT INTO THE SMOKE,
IT WAS LIKE FIVE FEET OF VISIBILITY, MAYBE TEN IF YOU'RE LUCKY. >> IT'S LIKE A BLOWTORCH BEING
BLOWN AT YOU. THE HEAT WAS SO INTENSE. >> Reporter: CAPTAIN JAY FUJITA HAS BEEN A FIREFIGHTER ALMOST AS
LONG AS TANNER MOSHER HAS BEEN ALIVE. HE COMMANDED ENGINE 1 TO TAKE A SPOT NEXT TO MOSHER'S CREW.
AT 4:30, STREETS WERE CLOGGED WITH THE CARS OF RESIDENTS AND TOURISTS. THIS WAS A 911 OPERATOR.
>> YOU GUYS NEED TO LEAVE. IF YOU CAN'T, IF YOU CAN'T DRIVE AWAY, GET OUT OF THE CAR AND RUN.
>> Reporter: THE ABANDONED CARS AND A WEB OF DOWNED POWER LINES TRAPPED THE EIGHT FIREFIGHTERS AND THEIR TWO ENGINES.
>> ONCE WE DETERMINED WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ESCAPE THE -- THE STREET THAT WE WERE ON, WE PULLED A LINE TO KIND OF
PROTECT OURSELVES FROM THE FIRE. >> Reporter: JUST TO KEEP THE FIRE AWAY FROM YOU? >> YEAH.
BUT THE HOSE BURNT. >> Reporter: SO YOU DON'T HAVE A HOSE. >> YEP.
>> Reporter: AND YOU CAN'T GET OUT? >> YEP. OUR ONLY COURSE OF ACTION WAS TO
SHELTER IN PLACE. >> Reporter: INSIDE THE ENGINES THEY RELIED ON AIR TANKS TO BREATHE.
>> WE WERE JUST CONSERVING OUR AIR AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND JUST SITTING IN OUR SEATS. WE WERE JUST FIXATING ON MAKING
IT OUT, LASTING. >> Reporter: SO AT THAT POINT IT'S SURVIVING. >> IT'S SURVIVING FOR SURE.
I MEAN, WE COULD SEE METAL MELTING IN FRONT OF OUR EYES. >> I HAD TEXTED MY WIFE. I TOLD HER I LOVE HER AND TO
PASS THE MESSAGE ONTO THE REST OF MY FAMILY, THAT I LOVE THEM. THAT WE'RE STUCK AND WE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT OUT.
BUT IT WAS TOO HOT IN THE TRUCK, SO MY PHONE WASN'T WORKING. SO THE MESSAGE DIDN'T GO THROUGH.
>> I JUST REMEMBR BEING LIKE, I CAN'T GIVE UP YET. LIKE, I GOT TO DO SOMETHING. AND SO I REMEMBER LOOKING OUT
THE WINDOW, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I COULD SEE ENGINE 1 SKEETER, MINI ONE. >> Reporter: THE SKEETER IS A
SMALL FIRE TRUCK, LIKE THIS ONE. MOSHER JUMPED INTO IT ALONE TO SEE IF HE COULD CLEAR A PATH FOR THE ENGINES TO GET OUT.
MOSHER SAYS WHEN HE REALIZED THE SKEETER COULDN'T DRIVE THROUGH THE BARRICADE OF CARS, HE MADE THE SNAP DECISION TO DRIVE OVER
THEM TO FIND HELP. >> AND SO I JUST REMEMBER PUTTING IT IN FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE AND I LAUNCHED THE BARRICADE.
I KIND OF PLANED FOR A SECOND. AND I WAS LIKE, OH, OKAY, I MATE IT OVER. AT THE END OF THE LOT WAS A ROCK
WALL. SO, I LAUNCHED OVER THE ROCK WALL AND DEFINITELY CAUGHT SOME POWER LINES.
SO, I WOULD JUST BE DRIVING THROUGH THE SMOKE, NOT SEEING ANYTHING. SO I'M JUST LIKE DRIVING
THROUGH, DODGING STUFF. >> Reporter: HIS TRUCK WAS DAMAGED, BUT DOWN THE ROAD HE SAW THE LIGHTS OF A POLICE CAR.
>> I JUST REMEMBER LEAVING MOST OF MY STUFF IN THAT TRUCK, GETTING OUT, RUNNING TO THE COP AND JUST TELLING HIM LIKE, HEY,
I GOT GUYS IN THERE. THEY NEED HELP. THEY'RE DYING. AND SO HE SAID, HEY, YOU CAN
TAKE MY SQUAD VEHICLE. JUST COME BACK. SO, I HOPPED IN THERE AND JUST STARTED DRIVING BACK INTO THE
SMOKE WHERE I KNEW I CAME FROM, OR REMEMBERED COMING FROM. >> Reporter: AS MOSHER MADE HIS WAY BACK, CAPTAIN FUJITA
REALIZED THE FIRE TRUCK WAS NO LONGER OFFERING PROTECTION. >> I NOTICED OUR WINDSHIELD FAILING.
IT STARTED TO FAIL. >> Reporter: YOUR WINDSHIELD FAILING? WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
>> SO, THE WINDSHIELD IS MADE UP OF TWO PANES OF GLASS WITH A FILM IN THE MIDDLE. AND THAT FILM WAS, YOU KNOW,
DELAMINATING AND BUBBLING IN THE WINDSHIELD. >> Reporter: SO IT'S MELTING AROUND YOU?
>> YEAH. SO, WE GOT OUT OF THE TRUCK AND WE ALL SHELTERED BEHIND THE ENGINE.
AND WE HEARD LIKE A CHIRPING OF A SIREN. BUT BECAUSE OF THE SMOKE, WE DIDN'T -- WE COULDN'T SEE WHERE
IT WAS COMING FROM. BUT FINALLY WE SEEN A POLICE SUV SHOW UP. >> Reporter: IT WAS TANNER
MOSHER. SEVEN FIREFIGHTERS IN GEAR CRAMMED INSIDE THE SUV MOSHER WAS DRIVING, INCLUDING HIS
CAPTAIN, MIKE MULLALLEY, WHO WAS UNCONSCIOUS FROM SMOKE INHALATION. HE'S ON THE FAR LEFT IN THIS
PICTURE TAKEN BEFORE THE FIRE. >> HE WAS IN THE CAR, THE SUV WITH THE DOOR OPEN AND HIS BOOTS WERE HANGING BUT THEY WEREN'T
TOUCHING THE GROUND. >> Reporter: SO THEY'RE JUST HOLDING ONTO CAPTAIN? >> YEAH.
ALL THE GUYS THAT WERE ABLE TO REACH HIM WERE LOCKED ON. >> Reporter: WITH HIS CAPTAIN'S LEGS DANGLING OUT, HE JUMPED THE
SUV TO SAFETY. DID TANNER MOSHER SAVE YOUR LIFE THAT DAY? >> YES, HE SAVED ALL OF OUR
LIVES. >> Reporter: HE'S A YOUNG GUY. >> YOU CAN'T TEACH THAT KIND OF HEROISM.
HE JUST HAD IT IN HIM. >> Reporter: ONCE CLEAR, THE FIREFIGHTERS PERFORMED CPR AND STABILIZED CAPTAIN MULALLEY.
>> AND THEN ALL SEVEN OF US WENT BACK TO WORK. >> Reporter: YOU KEPT FIGHTING FIRES?
>> YEP. ALL THE WAY TILL THE NEXT MORNING. >> Reporter: WITH LITTLE WATER,
THERE WAS LITTLE THEY COULD DO TO SAVE HOMES. SO AS THE SUN SET, THE FIREFIGHTERS' MISSION SHIFTED TO
SAVING ANYONE THEY COULD, ANY WAY THEY COULD. AINA KOHLER DITCHED HER FIRE ENGINE AND USED A PICKUP TO
SNAKE THROUGH THE BURNING DEBRIS DOWNTOWN. A LOCAL, SHE KNEW EVERY WAY IN AND OUT.
>> THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE IN THEIR CARS, STUCK DOWN THERE, NOT KNOWING WHICH WAY TO GET OUT.
AND SO I WOULD JUMP IN THEIR CAR AND I WOULD DRIVE THEIR CAR OUT FOR THEM. >> Reporter: SO, EVERYBODY'S
TRYING TO GET OUT AND YOU'RE GOING IN? >> YEAH. >> Reporter: A MOTHER OF TWO
SAID HER FAMILY WAS ABLE TO ESCAPE, BUT LIKE 16 OTHER FIREFIGHTERS IN LAHAINA, █SHE LOST HER HOME.
DID YOU EVER THINK, LIKE, WHY ME? >> NO. I WAS LIKE, EVERY -- EVERYTHING
ELSE IS BURNED DOWN, WHY NOT MY HOUSE? YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO BE FEELING LIKE I COULDN'T DEFEND,
YOU KNOW, THE ENTIRE TOWN, AND IF MY HOUSE WAS STILL STANDING, I'D PROBABLY HAVE EVEN MORE GUILT.
>> Reporter: ONCE THE SPARKLING JEWEL OF MAUI, THIS IS LAHAINA TODAY. ITS TREASURES NOW A SEA OF ASH
AND CHARRED METAL. MORE THAN 2,000 HOMES AND BUSINESSES WERE DESTROYED. HAWAII'S ATTORNEY GENERAL IS
INVESTIGATING THE CAUSE OF THE AFTERNOON FIRE AND HOW THE WATER SYSTEM FAILED. ALREADY, IN THE HILLS ABOVE
LAHAINA, THE FLAMMABLE GRASS THAT SET THE STAGE FOR THIS DISASTER IS GROWING BACK. CAPTAIN JAY FUJITA TOOK US TO
THE STREET WHERE HIS CREW MADE ITS STAND. YOUR ENGINE WAS RIGHT THERE? >> YEP, RIGHT THERE.
>> Reporter: THOSE ASHES IN FRONT OF US ARE THE OUTLINE OF WHERE FIRE CONSUMED WHAT WAS ONCE ENGINE 1.
>> IT'S KIND OF LIKE A GRAVE, YOU KNOW, COMING BACK TO SEE THIS. AFTER WE LEFT IT WAS STILL HOT
ENOUGH AND BAD ENOUGH TO BURN THE ENGINE. >> Reporter: TO NOTHING. >> YEAH.
>> Reorter: AND WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE FIGHT NOW WHEN YOU LOOK BACK ON IT? >> I THINK WE ALL FEEL -- WISH
WE COULD HAVE DONE MORE. WE MADE IT OUT AND WE'RE GRATEFUL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE'S STILL PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T
MAKE IT OUT. >> Reporter: NOT FAR FROM WHERE THE LAHAINA FIRE BEGAN IS A LINE OF CROSSES.
ONE FOR EACH PERSON WHO DIED. THE 100th VICTIM WAS IDENTIFIED LAST WEEK, BUT BY OUR COUNT, MAUI FIREFIGHTERS RESCUED AT
LEAST 200 PEOPLE FROM THE FLAMES.
>>> STEVEN VAN ZANDT EMBODIED BOTH THE FRUSTRATION AND A BEAUTY OF THE ARTS. THERE ARE NO ORG CHARTS, NO
OFFICIAL TITLES, NO ONE WAY TO DO THE JOB. HE HAS DISCOVERED THAT IT'S EASIER TO BE THIS CREATIVE
FURNACE, THIS VOLCANO OF ARTISTIC OUTPUT WHEN YOU ARE NOT THE FOCUS. THE LONG-TIME GUITARIST AND
MUSICAL DIRECTOR FOR BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN AND THE E STREET BAND WAS ALSO UNDERBOSS OF A DIFFERENT KIND, ACTING IN ONE OF
HISTORY'S MOST INFLUENTIAL TELEVISION SHOWS, "THE SOPRANOS," ALL WHILE TRYING TO PRESERVE ROCK 'N' ROLL.
THE HIGHWAY MAY BE JAMMED WITH BROKEN HEROES YET LITTLE STEVEN REFUSES TO PICK A LANE. >> Reporter: LATE ON A SUNDAY
AFTERNOON IN MAY, STEVEN VAN ZANDT WAS MIDWAY THROUGH A BURST OF FURIOUS CREATIVITY. TENDING TO HIS LATEST SCREEN
PLAY. HE HAD AN IDEA HE HAD TO COMMIT TO THE PAGE. >> A COUPLE SINGERS WHO, YOU
KNOW -- MY DAY JOB IS LEG BREAKERS. >> Reporter: WHERE WAS THIS QUAINT WRITERS' RETREAT?
IN HIS BACKSTAGE DRESSING ROOM AT A CONCERT IN ROME. MINUTES BEFORE VAN ZANDT PUT HIS PEN AND PAD AWAY AND WENT ON
STAGE AS A CRITICAL MEMBER OF ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL ROCK 'N' ROLL ACTS OF ALL TIME. >> COME ON, STEVE!
♪ ♪ WE SAID WE HAD TO COME SEE YOU GUYS PERFORM IN ROME.
OF ALL THE CITIES, ALL THE GIN JOINTS, WHY ROME? >> THE FANS HERE ARE JUST SO MUCH FUN.
YOU SEE EVERYBODY SINGING EVERY SINGLE WORD HAVE EVERY SINGLE SONG, WHEN THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY SPEAK ENGLISH,
RIGHT, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS -- >> Reporter: THAT'S VALIDATION. >> WELL, IT'S A VALIDATION. IT'S A SHOW OF THE POWER OF WHAT
WE DO. >> Reporter: SWADDLED IN HIS TRADEMARK BANDANA AND WRAPPED IN COMPLEXITY, LITTLE STEVEN, NOW
72, REMAINS A TRUE AMERICAN ORIGINAL, THE ULTIMATE WINGMAN. >> I'M NOT CRAZY ABOUT THE SPOTLIGHT.
I COULD HAVE BEEN AND MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN, OKAY? BECAUSE, AGAIN, YOU REALIZE THAT HAS BIG ADVANTAGES.
BUT NATURALLY I JUST WASN'T INTO IT. I'D RATHER BE STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY, LET HIM BE IN THE
SPOTLIGHT, LET HIM TAKE THE HEAT, BECAUSE I LIKE TO BLEND IN, ACTUALLY. >> Reporter: YEAH, I CAN TELL BY
THE MODEST MEASURED OUTFIT. >> I GAVE UP TRYING TO ANALYZE IT YEARS AGO, BUT I PREFER TO BE AN OBSERVER RATHER THAN THE
OBSERVED. >> Reporter: CAN I BREAK IT TO YOU? >> DO I NEED TO LIE DOWN ON THE
COUCH FOR THIS? >> Reporter: ONE THING HE'S NOT QUESTIONING, HIS PLACE IN THE BAND.
>> PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY, AREN'T YOU WORRIED ABOUT BEING REPLACED? I'M LIKE, NO, I CAN'T BE REPLACED.
HOW MANY BEST FRIENDS DO YOU HAVE FOR 50 YEARS, YOU KNOW. >> Reporter: THE BEST FRIEND HE REFERENCES, OF COURSE, IS
SPRINGSTEEN. THEY MET AS TEENAGERS IN 1960s JERSEY, MISFITS SEDUCED BY ROCK 'N' ROLL.
TO QUOTE LITTLE STEVEN, THE BEATLES REVEALED THIS NEW WORLD TO US, THE ROLLING STONES INVITED US IN.
THEY FORMED A BAND, ANCHORED IN THE BOARDWALK TOWN OF ASBURY PARK. GIVEN THAT VAN ZANDT HAD A
MONTHLY OVERHEAD OF $150 IN RENT, THE GOING WAS GOOD. MORE IMPORTANT, THE BAND LEARNED HOW TO PLAY LIVE, HOW TO MARRY
MUSICIANSHIP WITH SHOW MANSHIP. >> THE FACT THAT WE WERE IN BARS, YOU KNOW, MAKING OUR BONES, YOU KNOW, WHAT, SEVEN
YEARS BEFORE WE GOT INTO THE MUSIC BUSINESS, RIGHT? >> Reporter: YOU GET INTO THIS GAME BECAUSE IT JUST -- THIS
SPEAKS TO YOU. WHAT'S IT BROUGHT YOU THAT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT? >> OTHER THAN EVERYTHING?
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, IT WAS JUST EVERYTHING. IT SAVED MY LIFE. I MEAN, I DIDN'T HAVE ANY PATH
FORWARD. AND SO IT BRINGS YOU ACCEPTANCE. YOU'RE PART OF SOMETHING. AND, MAN, IT JUST CAME ALONG
RIGHT AT THE RIGHT TIME. YOU'RE MAKING A LIVING PLAYING ROCK 'N' ROLL, MAN. THAT WAS THE MIRACLE.
♪ >> Reporter: VAN ZANDT, WHO DOESN'T READ OR WRITE MUSIC, BROUGHT HIS GUITAR CHOPS AND HIS
MUSICAL EAR. ♪ >> Reporter: ARRANGING THE ICONIC HORNS ON TENTH AVENUE
FREEZE-OUT AND POLISHING SPRINGSTEEN'S GUITAR LICK ON "BORN TO RUN." ♪
>> Reporter: HOW MUCH CREDIT DO YOU TAKE? HOW MUCH CREDIT SHOULD YOU TAKE FOR THE SUCCESS OF THIS BAND?
>> I UNDERSTOOD CERTAIN THINGS EARLIER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE. IF YOU LISTEN TO "DARKNESS ON THE EDGE OF TOWN" AND LISTEN TO
"RIVER," THE DIFFERENCE IS ME, YOU KNOW. I'M NOT -- I'M NEVER -- I'M NOT EVER GOING TO TAKE MORE CREDIT
THAN THE REST OF THIS BAND, SO I JUST WAS KIND OF HELPING SHAPE THINGS AND TRYING TO REALIZE BRUCE'S VISION.
IT'S HIS VISION. I TRY TO MAKE BAD THINGS GOOD, GOOD THINGS GREAT, AND GREAT THINGS BETTER, YOU KNOW.
>> Reporter: YET AFTER AN ARGUMENT OVER CREATIVE INPUT, VAN ZANDT LEFT THE BAND IN 1984 AND WAS CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT ON
TOUR FOR SPRINGSTEEN'S MOST COMMERCIALLY SUCCESSFUL ALBUM. HE HAD MARRIED ACTRESS MAUREEN SANTORO AND STARTED WRITING
SONGS FOR HIS OWN BAND, LITTLE STEVEN AND THE DISCIPLES OF SOUL. AND HE TURNED HIS ATTENTION TO
POLITICAL ACTIVISM. MOST NOTABLY TO APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA. >> 26 MILLION BLACK PEOPLE COULD
NOT VOTE. THEY COULD NOT EVEN HAVE, YOU KNOW, A CUP OF TEA WITH A WHITE PERSON WITHOUT PERMISSION.
IT'S TERRIBLE. >> Reporter: IN 1985 VAN ZANDT WROTE AND CO-PRODUCED THE PROTEST SONG "SUN CITY."
♪ >> Reporter: WHICH CAST THE RESORT TOWN THREE HOURS OUTSIDE OF JOHANNESBURG AS A SYMBOL OF
THE MORAL FAILURE OF APARTHEID. VAN ZANDT DIDN'T JUST GET COLLEAGUES TO SING ON AN ALBUM, HE GOT THEM TO COMMIT TO A SUN
CITY BOYCOTT. YOU SAW THROUGH THAT? >> YEAH. SO WE USED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE
AND WE EXPOSED THAT WHOLE FRAUDULENT SCHEME. >> Reporter: AIN'T GOING TO PLAY SUN CITY.
>> YEAH. >> Reporter: IN THE LATE '90s, HE AND SPRINGSTEEN RECONCILED. AND WHEN THE BOSS ASKED HIM
BUDDY TO REJOIN THE E STREET BAND, WELL, THIS GUN WAS FOR HIRE. BUT THERE WAS A HITCH.
VAN ZANDT HAD ALREADY COMMITTED TO A NEW TV SHOW ON HBO. >> I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING TO GAIN.
>> Reporter: THE CREATOR DAVID CHASE HAD SEEN VAN ZANDT AT THE ROCK AND ROLL HALL OF FAME AND MADE HIM AN OFFER HE COULDN'T
REFUSE. >> HE CALLS AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO BE IN MY NEW TV SHOW?
I SAID, WOW, THAT'S REALLY NICE, DAVID. I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT. BUT, NO, NOT REALLY, YOU KNOW.
HE SAID, WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO? I'M LIKE, I'M NOT AN ACTOR. ISN'T THAT A PROBLEM? >> Reporter: VAN ZANDT SAYS
CHASE WANTED HIM TO PLAY THE LEAD. >> HE GOES TO HBO, HBO SAYS, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?
>> Reporter: NICE GUITAR PLAYING AND ALL. >> YEAH, ARE YOU NUTS? >> Reporter: "THE SOPRANOS"
WOULD ELEVATE TV. WHILE THE LEAD WOULD GO TO JAMES GANDOLFINI, VAN ZANDT WOULD SCENE-STEAL AS SILVIO DANTE,
MANAGER OF THE BADA BINGE CLUB. >> I KNEW IF I COULD CREATE THE GUY FROM OUTSIDE, I COULD SEE HIM IN THE MIRROR.
I FELT I COULD BE HIM. AND I WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A MOB AFICIONADO. >> Reporter: THE GUY WHO PLAYED
TONY SOPRANO'S RIGHT HAND MAN? HE HAD MORE THAN A PASSING FAMILIARITY WITH THE PART. I DON'T WANT TO LIKEN BRUCE
SPRINGSTEEN TO A MOB BOSS, BUT -- BUT YOU HAD THAT EXPERIENCE. >> I KNOW THOSE DYNAMICS, OKAY?
I KNOW BEING THE ONLY GUY WHO'S NOT AFRAID TO TELL THE BOSS THE TRUTH. THAT'S THE JOB.
THAT'S THE GIG. IF YOU'RE THE GUY'S BEST FRIEND OR THE UNDERBOSS, SOMEBODY HAS TO BE THE ONE TO OCCASIONALLY
BRING BAD NEWS. >> Reporter: WHAT WAS AN ADJUSTMENT, THE PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVENESS OF THE
ACTING STAGE. >> BECAUSE NOW WHO'S GOT MORE LINES, WHO'S IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA AT THE RIGHT TIME.
I'M SENSING ALL THIS KIND OF WEIRD, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE BIT WEIRD -- I'M NOT USED -- >> Reporter: THIS TENSION.
>> YEAH. AND I DECIDED THEN, I'M GOING TO TURN THIS SHOW INTO A ROCK 'N' ROLL BAND, YOU KNOW.
BEFORE I'M DONE, OKAY. THIS SHOW IS GOING TO BE A BAND. IT'S ONE FOR ALL, YOU KNOW, ALL FOR ONE, RIGHT?
>> Reporter: WHO'S THIS GUY? AN ORIGINAL SOPRANO'S POSTER IS ONE OF THE COUNTLESS RELICS ADORNING HIS APARTMENT IN
GREENWICH VILLAGE. WHEN THE JOURNEY ENDED AFTER EIGHT YEARS, VAN ZANDT BEING VAN ZANDT, EMBARKED ON A NEW
PROJECT. HE STARTED HIS MEMOIR AND HE CO-WROTE AND STARTED IN "LILLEHAMMER" A SHOW IN NORWAY
IN THE FIRST IN A SERIES IN A STREAMING SERVICE CALLED NETFLIX. >> WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
>> Reporter: WAIT, THERE'S MORE. CONCERNED ABOUT THE DECLINE IN ROCK ALBUM SALES, HE LAUNCHED A WEEKLY RADIO PROGRAM, LITTLE
STEVEN'S UNDERGROUND GARAGE. YOU WOULDN'T MIND IF YOU GUYS WERE SUPPLANTED A LITTLE BIT BY A NEW WAVE OF E STREET BANDS?
>> I WOULD LOVE THAT. >> Reporter: HE ALSO SOMEHOW FOUND THE BAND WIDTH TO LAUNCH TEACHROCK, A FREE K THROUGH 12
CURRICULUM THAT USES ROCK 'N' ROLL TO SNEAK IN TEACHING ALL THE OTHER STUFF. >> WE SAY, WHAT ARE YOU
LISTENING TO? I'M LISTENING TO BEYONCE. WELL, YOU KNOW WHERE BEYONCE COMES FROM?
SHE COMES FROM A WOMAN NAMED ARETHA FRANKLIN. SHE COMES FROM A PLACE CALLED DETROIT, YOU KNOW.
WE TALK ABOUT DETROIT. WE TALK ABOUT SHE COMES FROM THE GOSPEL CHURCH. WE TALK ABOUT THAT.
SHE WAS INVOLVED IN CIVIL RIGHTS. WE TALK ABOUT THAT, YOU KNOW. AND THEY'RE LISTENING.
AND THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION. WHY? BECAUSE WE'RE ON THEIR TURF. >> Reporter: AND YET WE ALWAYS
HEAR ABOUT HOW ART AND MUSIC PROGRAMS ARE GETTING CUT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. >> YES.
>> Reporter: WHY'S THAT? >> BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND, WE'RE THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT THINKS
ART IS A LUXURY. EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD UNDERSTANDS THAT ART IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THE QUALITY OF
LIFE. >> Reporter: THE CURRENT CULTURE OF THE ARTS, THE SHIFTING STATE OF PLAY IN MUSIC, MAKES HIM ALL
THE MORE GRATEFUL THAT A COUPLE OF JERSEY NONCONFORMISTS TIMED IT RIGHT. CAUGHT SOME BREAKS AND BECAME
ROCK 'N' ROLL TITANS. HOW DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO START DESCRIBING STEVEN VAN ZANDT? >> I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN DO
THAT. EXCEPT ALL I CAN SAY IS I MET HIM WHEN HE WAS 16. STEVE IS THE CONSIGLIERE OF THE
E STREET BAND. IF I HAVE QUESTIONS PERTAINING A DIRECTION FOR THE BAND, OR ISSUES WITH THE BAND, OR
SOMETHING LIKE THE SET LIST, I'M NOT SURE WHAT WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THAT NIGHT OR WHAT WE SHOULD START WITH OR IF HE HAS
SECOND DOUBTS ABOUT SOMETHING, HE ALWAYS COMES TO ME. SO HE'S BENES SELLER TO ME SINCE -- I DON'T KNOW.
SINCE HE WALKED INTO THE STUDIO DURING THE "BORN TO RUN" SESSIONS AND FIXED THE HORNS AND MY GUITAR PARTS.
AND WE'VE BEEN DOING IT TOGETHER FOR A LONG TIME. AND THAT'S A WONDERFUL THING. I MEAN, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE
THEIR BEST FRIEND AT THEIR SIDE 50 SOME YEARS LATER? >> THERE YOU ARE, KID! >> WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING
ABOUT? >> WE LIKE THE SAME MUSIC. WE LIKE THE SAME CLOTHES. >> Reporter: YOU GUYS MEET AS
TEENAGERS. YOU'RE THESE JERSEY OUTCASTS. HERE WE ARE MORE THAN 50 YEARS LATER AND YOU'RE GOING OUT TO
PLAY CIRCUS MAXIMUS IN ROME. >> IT'S SOMETHING. >> YOU CAN'T PUT IT TOGETHER. IT'S JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS
THAT HAPPENED. >> Reporter: HOW DO YOU MAKE SENSE OF THAT, SERIOUSLY? >> WELL, IN A WAY IT MAKES SENSE
BECAUSE I THINK AS WE MENTIONED, WE COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE, SO WE WERE GOING -- WE WERE DESTINED TO DO THIS.
>> AND WE DID NOTHING ELSE. SO, THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT, TOO. ALL WE DID WAS MUSIC, MUSIC,
MUSIC, MUSIC, PLAY, PLAY, PLAY, PLAY. ♪ ♪ I'M GOING DOWN TO THE WELL
TONIGHT GOING TO DRINK UNTIL I GET MY FILL ♪ >> Reporter: THAT, WE AND THE
REST OF THE CROWD, EXPERIENCED FOR OURSELVES. ♪ HEY STEVE BABY ♪ ?
I THINK IT'S TIME TO GO HOME NOW ♪ >> Reporter: STILL ROCKING OUT IN HIS 70s, TRYING TO SAVE
RADIO, TRYING TO SAVE ROCK, WRITING SCREEN PLAYS, IF STEVEN VAN ZANDT IS ACCUSED OF BEING AN ARTIST DREAMER WITHOUT APOLOGY,
HE'LL PLEAD GUILTY. THIS IS GOING SOUND HARSH. IS THIS THE SONIC VERSION OF DONDONEY
QIXOTE? >> YEAH, THAT'S THE STORY OF MY LIFE. >> STEVEN VAN ZANDT ON JAMES
BEGAN GANDOLFINI. >> YEAH, YOU WERE CLOSE. >> AY UNITED
HEALTH CARE. THERE FOR WHAT MATTERS. >>> AS WE BEGIN THANKSGIVING WEEK, WE'RE OFFERING AN EXTRA
HELPING OF "60 MINUTES" TONIGHT. COME COMING UP, ANDERSON COOPER HAS THE STORY OF A SLAVE SHIP AND A
DIFFICULT AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATION YOU'LL WANT TO HEAR AMONG THE DESCENDENTS OF BOTH THE ENSLAVED AND THE ENSLAVERS.
>> MY HOPE IS THAT THIS CAN BE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT RECONCILIATION LOOKS LIKE FOR THE NATION AS WELL AS START THE
HEALING PROCESS FOR A NUMBER OF DESCEND DESCENDANS. >> EVERYBODY HAS THIS PERCEPTION
THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE'RE ANGRY. >> ARE YOU ANGRY AT THE MEAHERS? >> I'M NOT ANGRY AT THE MEAHERS.
I'M JUST ANGRY AT THE FACT THAT IT TOOK SO LONG TO SPEAK OUT. >> WE WERE SILENT FOR FAR TOO LONG.
WE WERE D
>>> IN 2019 WE BEGAN REPORTING ON THE DISCOVERY OF THE "CLOTILDA," A SUNKEN SLAVE SHIP FOUND IN THE BOTTOM OF AN
ALABAMA RIVER. THE "CLOTILDA" WAS THE LAST SHIP KNOWN TO HAVE BROUGHT CAPTURED AFRICANS TO AMERICA IN 1860.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 110 MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN ON BOARD IS WELL DOCUMENTED. AND THEIR STORIES HAVE BEEN
PASSED DOWN THROUGH GENERATIONS BY THEIR DESCENDENTS, SOME OF WHOM STILL LIVE JUST A FEW MILES FROM WHERE THE SHIP WAS FOUND,
IN A COMMUNITY CALLED AFRICATOWN. FOR 160 YEARS THIS MUDDY STRETCH OF THE MOBILE RIVER COVERED UP A
CRIME. IN JULY 1860 THE "CLOTILDA" WAS TOWED HERE AFTER A 45-DAY VOYAGE FROM WEST AFRICA WITH 110
ENSLAVED PEOPLE ON BOARD. >> I JUST IMAGINE MYSELF BEING ON THAT SHIP JUST LISTENING TO THE WAVES AND THE WATER AND JUST
NOT KNOWING WHERE YOU WERE GOING. >> Reporter: JOYCELYN DAVIS, LORNA GAIL WOODS AND THOMAS
GRIFFIN ARE DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF THIS AFRICAN MAN, OLUALE, ONCE ENSLAVED HIS OWNER CHANGED HIS NAME TO CHARLIE LEWIS.
THIS IMAGE IS FROM AROUND 1900. POLLEE ALLEN WHOSE AFRICAN NAME WAS KUPOLLEE, SEEN IN THIS 100-YEAR-OLD SKETCH WAS THE
ANCESTOR OF JEREMY ELLIS AND DARRON PATTERSON. >> NO CLOTHES, EATING WHERE THEY DEFECATED, ONLY ALLOWED OUT OF
THE CARGO HOLD FOR ONE DAY A WEEK FOR TWO MONTHS. >> Reporter: THERE IS NO PHOTOGRAPHS OF PAT FRAZIER'S
GREAT-GREAT GRANDMOTHER, LOTTIE DENISON, BUT CAPRINXIA WALLACE AND HER MOTHER CASSANDRA HAVE A SURPRISING NUMBER OF PICTURES OF
THEIR ANCESTOR, KOSSULA, WHOSE ENSLAVER CALLED HIM CUDJO LEWIS. >> GROWING UP MY MOM MADE SURE SHE TOLD ME ALL THE STORIES THAT
HER DAD TOLD HER ABOUT CUDJO. >> Reporter: THE STORY OF THE "CLOTILDA" BEGAN WHEN TIMOTHY MEAHER, A WEALTHY BUSINESSMAN,
HIRED CAPTAIN FOSTER TO SMUGGLE CAPTURED AFRICAN FROM MODERN DAY BENIN TO MOBILE. MEAHER DIVIDED THEM UP BETWEEN
HIMSELF, THE FOSTER AND SEVERAL OTHERS. CAPTAIN FOSTER CLAIMED HE THEN TURNED AND SANK THE "CLOTILDA,"
BUT EXACTLY WHERE REMAINED A SMISRY UNTIL 2018. THAT'S WHEN A LOCAL REPORTER, BEN RAINES, FOUND THE "CLOTILDA"
IN ABOUT 20 FEET OF WATER NEXT TO LAND STILL OWNED BY THE MEAHER FAMILY. >> WE'RE COMING UP ON IT.
>> Reporter: WE VISITED THE WRECK WITH MARITIME ARCHAEOLOGIST JAMES DELGADO IN 2020.
>> SONAR IS ON. GOOD TO DROP. >> Reporter: THE WATER IS SO MUDDY, THE ONLY WAY TO SEE THE
SHIP IS WITH A SONAR DEVICE. YOU CAN SEE IT TOTALLY CLEARLY. THAT'S THE SHIP. >> YES, THAT'S "CLOTILDA."
>> Reporter: THIS IS THE BOW HERE, JUST A FEW FEET FROM THE SURFACE AND BOTH SIDES OF THE HULL.
"CLOTILDA" IS 86 FEET LONG, BUT THE BACK OF IT, THE STERN IS BURIED DEEP IN MUD. YOU CAN SEE NOTHING.
>> NOTHING. >> Reporter: WE DOVE ON THE WRECK BUT THERE'S ZERO VISIBILITY UNDER WATER.
THIS WOODEN PLANK WAS ALL OUR CAMERA COULD PICK UP. TWO YEARS LATER JAMES DELGADO AND HIS TEAM, INCLUDING DIVER
JAY HAIGLER, RETURNED TO THE WRECK TO PROPERLY EXPLORE THE SITE. THEY CAREFULLY REMOVED 98 PIECES
OF THE "CLOTILDA" FOR EXAMINATION. >> THIS IS A VERY GOOD FIND. THIS IS OFF OF THE STERN.
>> Reporter: INCLUDING THIS PART OF THE STEERING SYSTEM. MOST REMARKABLE OF ALL, THEY FOUND FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER,
ACCORDING TO DELGADO, THE INTACT CARGO HOLD OF A SLAVE SHIP, AND IT WAS SMALLER THAN THEY PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT.
>> BUT THE ONLY WAY TO GET ALL THOSE PEOPLE IN WAS TO LITERALLY PUT THESE POSTS IN AND LAY THESE PLATFORMS, AS THEY CALLED THEM,
A FOOT AND A HALF APART AND LITERALLY CRAM PEOPLE IN. >> Reporter: DELGADO HELPED US CREATE THIS ANIMATION THAT SHOWS
THE POST THEY FOUND STILL UPRIGHT IN THE CARGO HOLD. THE WOODEN PLATFORMS WHERE THE 110 CAPTIVES HAD BEEN FORCED TO
LIE, CROWDED TOGETHER, SHOULDER TO SHOULDER, STACKED ON TOP OF EACH OTHER IN NEAR TOTAL DARKNESS FOR THE 45-DAY VOYAGE.
>> THE BRITISH HAD DEVELOPED A RULE ON HOW TO DO THIS. SO IT WAS A FOOT AND A HALF BY FIVE FEET FOR A MAN.
A FOOT AND FOUR INCHES FOR A WOMAN. AND A FOOT FOR A CHILD. >> Reporter: A CHILD WOULD GET
ONE FOOT OF BODY SPACE? >> AND WHEN YOU USE THAT VERY BUREAUCRATIC, CRUEL, EVIL MATH, YOU COULD CRAM THE 110 PEOPLE IN
THERE IN HORRIFIC CONDITIONS. >> Reporter: JAY HAIGLER HAD DIVED ON SLAVE SHIPS BEFORE, BUT NEVER INSIDE A CARGO HOLD.
>> AND ONCE I GOT DOWN THERE, THERE WAS A CALMNESS THAT WAS AROUND. IT REALLY KIND OF WASHED OVER
ME. AND THEN I REALLY FELT THE PRESENCE OF THE 110 ANCESTORS. I WAS A DIFFERENT PERSON THAT
CAME OUT OF THAT CARGO HOLD THAN I WAS WHEN I WENT IN. >> Reporter: YOU REALLY FEEL THAT?
>> OH, ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. IT WAS A SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE. >> Reporter: SOME OF THE SHIP'S
PIECES, DELGADO'S TEAM RETRIEVED, ARE NOW ON DISPLAY IN A NEW MUSEUM CALLED AFRICATOWN HERITAGE HOUSE, WHICH OPENED IN
JLY JUST A FEW MILES AWAY FROM THE WRECK. ♪ >> Reporter: AFRICATOWN WAS
FOUNDED THREE YEARS AFTER EMANCIPATION BY 30 OF THE AFRICANS FROM THE "CLOTILDA." IT IS THE ONLY SURVIVING
COMMUNITY IN AMERICA FOUNDED BY AFRICANS, AND SOME OF THEIR DESCENDENTS STILL CALL IT HOME. WHO LIVES HERE NOW?
>> FAMILY MEMBERS, COUSINS. >> Reporter: JOYCELYN DAVIS TOOK HER TO THE STREET HER GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GRANDFATHER CHARLIE
LEWIS LIVED ON. IT'S STILL CALLED LEWIS QUARTERS. SO PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ON THIS
STREET CAN TRACE THEIR LINEAGE BACK TO CHARLIE LEWIS? >> YES, EVERYONE HERE IS RELATED.
>> Reporter: IN AN INTERVIEW PUBLISHED IN 1914, CUDJO LEWIS SAID WHEN HE AND THE OTHER "CLOTILDA" SURVIVORS WERE FREED
AFTER FIVE YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT, HE ASKED TIMOTHY MEAHER TO HELP THEM RETURN TO AFRICA, BUT MEAHER REFUSED.
MEAHER ALSO TRIED TO PREVENT THEM FROM VOTING. AND SOME FOUND WORK IN A SAW MILL MEAHER OWNED.
>> THEY SAVED THEIR MONEY TO BUY LAND. >> Reporter: THIS RARE FILM SHOWS CUDJO LEWIS IN HIS 80s,
WHEN HE WAS ONE OF THE "CLOTILDA'S" LAST SURVIVORS. HE HELPED FOUNDED THIS CHURCH, THE SAME CHURCH MANY "CLOTILDA"
DESCEND DESCEND DESCENDENTS ATTEND TODAY. AFTER EMANCIPATION IT SEEMS
UNLIKELY THAT A GROUP OF FREED SLAVES COULD POOL THEIR RESOURCES AND BUILD A COMMUNITY. I MEAN, THAT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY
THING. >> THERE'S THIS THING WE SAY ABOUT MAKING A WAY OUT OF NO WAY.
>> Reporter: MARY IS CURATOR AT SMITH SMITHSONIAN SMITHSONIAN.
>> WHEN THESE FOLKS WERE FORCED OVER HERE FROM THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA. THEY DIDN'T COME WITH EMPTY
HEADS. THEY CAME WITH EMPTY HANDS. SO THEY FOUND A WAY TO MAKE A WAY AND THEY WERE RESILIENT
AFRICATOWN WAS ONCE A VIBRANT COMMUNITY. THERE WERE BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES.
THE FIRST BLACK SCHOOL IN MOBILE. BY THE 1960s, 12,000 PEOPLE LIVED HERE.
BUT THOSE BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES ARE GONE, AN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY WAS BUILT THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF AFRICATOWN IN THE EARLY 1990s.
AND THERE ARE ONLY ABOUT 800 RESIDENTS REMAINING. LIVING IN SMALL CLUSTERS OF HOMES SURROUNDED BY FACTORIES
AND CHEMICAL PLANTS. NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO IN AFRICATOWN, CAN YOU HEAR FACTORIES AND INDUSTRY AND THE
HIGHWAY. >> THERE IS THIS CONSTANT BUZZ. IT'S A BUZZ YOU HEAR ALL THE TIME DAY AND NIGHT.
AND IT'S A CONSTANT REMINDER OF THE BREAKUP OF THIS COMMUNITY. >> Reporter: SINCE THE "CLOTILDA"
"CLOTILDA'S" DISCOVERY, SOME $10 MILLION IN CITY, STATE, FEDERAL AND PHILANTHROPIC FUNDS HAVE GONE INTO THE REVITALIZATION OF
AFRICATOWN, BUT THE DESCEND ANTS OF TIMOTHY MEAHER, THE SLAVE OWNER, REFUSED TO MEET. THE MEAHER FAMILY STILL OWNS
ABOUT 14% OF THE LAND IN HISTORIC AFRICATOWN, AND THEIR PROPERTY MARKERS ARE HARD TO MISS.
THERE'S EVEN STREETS NEARBY NAMED TIMOTHY MEAHER. COURT FILINGS FROM 2012 INDICATE THE MEAHERS' REAL ESTATE AND
TIMBER BUSINESS IS WORTH AN ESTIMATED $36 MILLION. WHEN WE FIRST VISITED IN 2020, THE MEAHERS WEREN'T TALKING, TO
US OR THE "CLOTILDA" DESCENDENTS. >> THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
>> BECAUSE THEY BENEFITTED IT. >> THAT'S IT. THEY BENEFITTED. THAT'S PART OF THEIR WEALTH WAS
DERIVED AND THAT ON THE BACKS OF THOSE PEOPLE. >> Reporter: WHAT WOULD YOU WANT TO SAY TO THEM, IF THEY WERE
WILLING TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, HAVE A COFFEE? >> WE WOULD FIRST NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT WAS DONE IN THE
PAST. AND THERE'S AN ACCOUNTABILITY PIECE THAT YOUR FAMILY, FOR THIS MANY YEARS, FIVE YEARS, AND THE
THIRD PIECE WOULD BE HOW DO WE PARTNER TOGETHER WITH -- IN AFRICATOWN? >> Reporter: THIS PAST JULY,
DESCEND DESCENDANTS OF TIMOTHY MEAHER AGREED TO A MEETING OF THE ENSLAVED AFRICANS TO ALABAMA ON
THE "CLOTILDA" HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MEET WITH DESCENDANTS OF TIMOTHY MEAHER. THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR BRINGING
THEIR ANCESTOR HERE IN 1860. LAST YEAR A NEW GENERATION TOOK CONTROL OF THE MEAHER FAMILY BUSINESS AND BEGAN TO EXPLORE
RECONCILIATION. A FEW MONTHS AGO WE WITNESSED A SITDOWN BETWEEN THE MODERN DAY MEAHERS AND THE RELATIVES OF THE
MEN AND WOMEN, THEIR ANSWER SESERS ENSLAVED. >> THE MEETING TOOK PLACE IN A CONFERENCE ROOM IN MOBILE'S
HISTORY MUSEUM THIS PAST JULY. >> I PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT THAT THIS DAY WOULD NEVER HAPPEN, LADIES, BECAUSE PEOPLE KEPT
SAYING, THE MEAHERS HAVE KEPT QUIET. THEY HAVE ONLY SPOKEN THROUGH THEIR LAWYERS.
>> Reporter: PAT FRAZIER WAS REPRESENTING THE "CLOTILDA" DESCEND DESCENDANTS ASSOCIATION ALONG
WITH JOYCELYN DAVIS AND ITS PRESIDENT, JEREMY ELLIS. >> MY HOPE IS THAT THIS CAN BE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT
RECONCILIATION LOOKS LIKE AS WELL AS START THE HEALING PROCESS. >> EVERYBODY HAS THIS PERCEPTION
THAT, UP, MAYBE WE'RE ANGRY. >> Reporter: ARE YOU ANGRY AT THE MEAHERS? >> I'M NOT ANGRY AT THE MEAHERS.
I'M JUST ANGRY OF THE FACT IT TOOK SO LONG TO SPEAK OUT. >> WE WERE SILENT FOR FAR TOO LONG AND WE WERE DISTANT FOR FAR
TOO LONG. WE'RE HAPPY TO FINALLY BREAK THE SILENCE AND TO NARROW THE DISTANCE.
>> Reporter: THAT'S MEG MEAHER, GREAT, GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF TIMOTHY MEAHER. SHE'S AN ACCOUNTANT WHO OVERSEES
THE FAMILY'S BUSINESS HOLDING AND PROPERTY, ALONG WITH HER SISTER, HELEN, AN ATTORNEY. >> I KNOW THERE'S NO WORDS THAT
I CAN SAY THAT ADEQUATELY ADDRESS THE HORRORS THAT YOUR ANCESTORS ENDURED AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE ACTIONS BY MY
ANCESTOR, TIMOTHY MEAHER. WE CAN OFFER THIS GENERATION'S HEART-FELT APOLOGY, BUT IT'S EASY TO SAY THINGS.
WE'RE GOING TO START DOING THINGS. >> Reporter: CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY YOU WERE
SILENT OR WHY THE FAMILY WAS? >> YEAH. OUR FAMILY IS -- IT'S LIKE SOME OTHER FAMILIES.
WE HAVE LOTS OF LAYERS AND COMPLEXITIES AND, YOU KNOW, SOME DYSFUNCTIONS. WE HAVE BEEN IN LIKE A LAWSUIT
AMONG FAMILY MEMBERS. AND THAT FINALLY RESOLVED JUST A YEAR AGO. SO, NOW IT'S -- REALLY IT'S OUR
GENERATION THAT'S BEEN ABLE TO STEP UP. >> WHAT DOES RECONCILIATION LOOK LIKE TO YOU?
>> I TOLD THIS TO ANDERSON YESTERDAY. I HOPE HE COMES BACK IN TEN YEARS AND AFRICATOWN IS A
THRIVING PLACE. AND THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO PLAY A PART IN HELPING THAT TRANSFORMATION.
>> AND I THINK ABOUT BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS AND SEEING WHAT WAYS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN GET BACK. >> Reporter: HELEN GREW UP A FEW
MILES FROM AFRICATOWN, BUT HAD NEVER BEEN THERE UNTIL LAST YEAR, WHEN SHE STARTED VOLUNTEERING AT A FOOD BANK.
AS A FIRST STEP TO MAKE AMENDS, IN 2021 HELEN AND MEG SOLD THIS PLOT OF LAND HAD AFRICATOWN TO THE CITY OF MOBILE FOR $50,000.
A FRACTION OF ITS APPRAISED VALUE. IT WILL BE HOME TO COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATIONS AND A
NEW FOOD BANK. MEG AND HELEN STILL OWN ABOUT 14% OF THE LAND IN HISTORIC AFRICATOWN.
>> WE HAVE SOME ASK, SPECIFIC ASKS THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE ACCOMPLISHED. >> Reporter: YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT PLOTS OF LAND? >> WE BELIEVE THAT WITHIN THAT HISTORIC DISTRICT OF AFRICATOWN, THERE ARE PARCELS OF LAND THAT
WE SHOULD HAVE OWNERSHIP IN. A LAND TRUST -- >> Reporter: A LAND TRUST? >> UH-HUH.
>> Reporter: THAT LAND WOULD THEN BE LEASED OUT TO -- FOR A BUSINESS? >> WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF A
COMPANY LIKE WALMART COULD PARTNER WITH DESCENDANTS AND LEASE OUT LAND FROM DESCENDANTS. >> THERE'S A TRUST AND THERE'S
LAND AND PEOPLE CAN HAVE SERVICES THAT THEY DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE. TODAY YOU COULDN'T GET, YOU
KNOW, A LOAF OF BREAD WITHOUT HAVING TO DRIVE MILES AWAY. THE STREETLIGHTS ARE SO POOR. THE ROADS ARE SO BAD.
THE DILAPIDATED HOUSING IS SO TERRIBLE. OR MAYBE THERE CAN BE EDUCATIONAL TRUST FUNDS THAT
SOMEBODY WOULD GO TO COLLEGE AND NOT BE SADDLED WITH STUDENT LOANS. >> I HAVE A DAUGHTER.
AND I BELIEVE THAT SHE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF EDUCATION THAT THE MEAHER FAMILY EXPERIENCED, BUT WE BELIEVE THE
SAME LEVEL OF EDUCATION SHOULD BE PROVIDED TO ALL DESCENDANTS. A LOT OF FOCUS AS IT SHOULD BE IS ON AFRICATOWN, BUT AS THE
PRESIDENT OF THE ORGANIZATION, I HAVE TO BE INTENTIONAL ABOUT THOSE OTHER SURVIVORS THAT MAYBE DIDN'T GROW UP IN AFRICATOWN,
BUT THEY STILL WERE IMPACTED BY THIS STORY. >> Reporter: SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 110 PEOPLE ON THE
"CLOTILDA." >> RIGHT. >> Reporter: THEIR DESCENDANTS PROBABLY NUMBER IN THE
THOUSANDS. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THESE TWO PEOPLE TO MAKE IT RIGHT FOR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE?
>> WE NEVER ASKED THAT. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CONSPIRATORS WHO PLAYED A ROLE. YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT BITE BY
BITE, BUT IF YOU HAVE AN HONEST CONVERSATION, AT LEAST WE KNOW WHAT THE PARAMETERS ARE TO WORK WITHIN.
>> Reporter: DO YOU THINK THEY BEAR RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ACTIONS OF TIMOTHY MEAHER AND SUBSEQUENT GENERATIONS?
>> SO, I FEEL LIKE THEY CAN'T BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEIR FOREFATHERS DID, HOWEVER, I WANT THEM TO RECOGNIZE HOW THAT
BEHAVIOR BENEFITED THEM AND WORKED TO THE DISADVANTAGE OF US. JUST LIKE THEY'VE HAD MULTIPLE
GENERATIONS OF WEALTH. THE ORIGINAL SLAVES AND THEIR DESCENDANTS HAVEN'T. >> Reporter: THE INABILITY TO
PURCHASE LAND -- >> COULDN'T BUILD ON ANYTHING. >> Reporter: AND FUTURE GENERATIONAL WEALTH PASSED DOWN
THROUGH REAL ESTATE -- >> NONE OF THAT, NONE OF THAT. >> Reporter: ARE THERE PARCELS OF LAND IN AFRICATOWN THAT YOU
ARE FINANCIALLY DEPENDENT ON, THAT YOU'RE MAKING MONEY FROM? >> I WOULD HAVE TO REVIEW THAT BETTER.
SINCE I HAVE JUST TAKEN ON THIS NEW ROLE. THERE'S STILL SO MUCH THAT I'M LEARNING.
WE'RE STILL KEEPING AN OPEN MIND AND WORKING ON FIGURING OUT NEXT STEPS. AND I'M NOT SHUTTING A DOOR ON
ANYTHING. >> Reporter: YOU SAID YOU DON'T HOLD HELEN AND MEG RESPONSIBLE, BUT YOU ARE ASKING THEM TO PAY
REPARATIONS. >> IT'S RECONCILIATION. I'VE NEVER USED THE WORD REPARATION.
>> I'M ASKING FOR LAND -- I'M ASKING FOR LAND THAT'S UNDEVELOPED. THAT'S BEEN UNDEVELOPED FOR
DECADES. >> Reporter: WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RECONCILIATION AND REPARATIONS?
>> I THINK REPARATIONS ENCOMPASSES A LOT MORE. I THINK IT'S MORE THAN JUST LAND.
I THINK THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT REPARATIONS, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH ASPECT OF THINGS AND THE MENTAL -- THAT
FOLKS HAVE ENDURED. >> Reporter: WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY WHO'S WATCHING THIS WHO'S WHITE AND THINKS, THIS IS
SCARY, THAT I CAN BE HELD FINANCIALLY LIABLE FOR SOMETHING A GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GRANDPARENT DID THAT I DIDN'T
EVEN KNOW ABOUT OR I JUST LEARNED ABOUT? >> OUR ACTIONS CAN SHOW THEM THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT CAN BE
DONE. AND THIS IS WHAT RECONCILIATION LOOKS LIKE FOR THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED THROUGH
GENERATIONS, RIGHT? >> Reporter: NOT ALL OF THE CONVERSATION WAS ABOUT LAND OR POSSIBLE SCHOLARSHIPS FOR
DESCENDANTS DESCENDANTS' CHILDREN. JOCELYN DAVIS WANTED THEM TO REMOVE THEIR PROPERTY MARKERS IN
AFRICATOWN. >> HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE GOING INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD AND YOU SAW THE ENSLAVER'S NAME
ON ALMOST EVERY CORNER THAT YOU PASS? IT'S LIKE A CONSTANT -- >> REMINDER.
>> -- REMINDER. >> REMINDER. >> I WOULD HATE IT. >> IT'S LIKE, HMM, YOU KNOW.
IT'S LIKE, OH, WOW. >> IS IT A HMMO OR ARE YOU F'ing KIDDING ME? >> BOTH.
IT'S A LITTLE OF BOTH. >> WE CAN WORK TO REMOVE THOSE MONUMENTS. I KNOW THAT'S A SMALL STEP, BUT
IT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO SEE EVERY DAY. THAT'S A FIRST STEP WE CAN TAKE. I CAN'T CHANGE THE STREET SIGNS
BECAUSE THAT'S THE CITY. >> Reporter: THE DESCENDANTS ALSO WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT ANY ARTIFACTS THAT MIGHT HAVE
BELONGED TO THEIR ANCESTORS OR FROM THE "CLOTILDA" KEPT OR HIDDEN AWAY BY PAST GENERATIONS OF MEAHERS.
ARE THERE ANY ARTIFACTS THAT YOU HAVE? >> WE DO NOT HAVE ANY ARTIFACTS, THAT I'M AWARE OF.
WE'VE LOOKED REALLY HARD. >> I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE AREN'T FAMILY RELICS. I JUST WANT TO THINK THAT PEOPLE
PRESERVE THINGS OF SOME SIGNIFICANCE. >> Reporter: AND THAT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO YOU?
>> ABSOLUTELY. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO LEARN ABOUT THEIR ANCESTORS. >> I CAN TELL YOU, WE'RE
CONTINUING TO LOOK AS WE GO THROUGH STUFF. >> YEAH, WE ARE. >> Reporter: ONE OF THE FEW
ARTIFACTS THEY FOUND SO FAR IS THIS CANE, WHICH BELONGED TO TIMOTHY MEAHER'S BROTHER, BYRNES, THE MAN WHO ENSLAVED PAT
FRAZIER'S GREAT GRANDMOTHER? >> I WANT TO SEE IT. >> THIS IS THE CANE THAT BELONGED TO THE MAN WHO
PURCHASED YOUR -- >> MY ANCESTORS, EXACTLY. THANK YOU. >> SURE.
>> Reporter: WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO TOUCH SOMETHING LIKE THAT? >> WELL, IT MAKES ME SAD BECAUSE
IT JUST REALLY MAKES YOU REMEMBER THE HARDSHIP. >> Reporter: I CAN HEAR THE SADNESS IN YOUR VOICE.
>> YEAH, I'M VERY SAD. >> Reporter: THE MEETING LASTED ABOUT TWO HOURS. AND THOUGH NO FINANCIAL
COMMITMENTS WERE MADE, THE MEAHERS HAVE BEGUN REMOVING THEIR PROPERTY MARKERS AND ARE DONATING MORE LAND AROUND THE
FOOD BANK. IN ADDITION TO THE DESCENDANTS, THE MEAHERS SAY THEY'RE CONSULTING WITH FINANCIAL
PLANNERS AND OTHER COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATIONS IN AFRICATOWN TO WEIGH THEIR NEXT STEPS.
WHAT ARE YOUR BIGGEST CONCERNS? LIKE, WHAT ARE THE CALCULATIONS YOU'RE MAKING? >> WE DON'T WANT TO GENERATE
CONFLICT BECAUSE WE DO KNOW THERE ARE DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS. SO, THAT'S MY BIGGEST CONCERN.
HOW DO WE NOT CAUSE CONFLICT WORKING WITH EVERYONE? >> I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. THEY'VE COME TO THE TABLE,
TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND THEY WANT TO BE INTENTIONAL WITH THE DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE.
I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT PERSPECTIVE. >> I MEAN, I THINK SOME OF IT IS JUST RED TAPE.
I MEAN, IF WE HAVE TO DO A TRANSFER OF PROPERTY, YOU JUST WANT TO, I GUESS, ENSURE THAT EVERYTHING IS BEING DONE
CORRECTLY. THIS IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME. IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. >> AND I AGREE THAT IT'S NOT
EASY WORK. EVEN THE ASK ISN'T EASY, RIGHT? THAT'S NOT AN EASY THING TO DO. >> IN YOUR DREAM, AFRICATOWN
WOULD BECOME A THRIVING COMMUNITY. >> YES, AGAIN. >> Reporter: AGAIN.
DO YOU THINK THESE CONVERSATIONS NEED TO BE HAD ACROSS THE NATION? >> YES.
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. >> ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY. >> AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE FAIL
TO DO IN THIS COUNTRY. AND THERE IS SOME MISCONCEPTION ON THE PART OF, I THINK, A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT THOSE ARE JUST
SOME GREEDY ANCESTORS THAT ARE TRYING TO GET SOME HANDOUTS. THEY WANT SOME MORE HANDOUTS. >> LET ME BE VERY CLEAR ALSO --
>> NO. >> WE DID NOT COME TO THE TABLE SAYING, WE WANT EVERYTHING. WE WERE VERY INTENTIONAL ABOUT
WHAT THOSE ASKS WERE. AND SO, WE'RE JUST COMING TO THE TABLE REASONABLY, RESPECTFULLY AND AUTHENTIC.
>>> I'M CECILIA VEGA. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH ANOTHER EDITION OF "60 MINUTES." HAPPY THANKSGIVING.