1 00:00:12,078 --> 00:00:18,985 >>> LITIGATION FUNDING IS A NEW TYPE OF INVESTMENT THAT'S BECOME A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. >> SO THESE ARE ALL LAWYERS? 2 00:00:19,052 --> 00:00:27,193 >> INDEED THEY ARE. >> IN ESSENCE, INVESTORS BET ON THE OUTCOME OF LARGE LAWSUITS THE WAY TRADERS BET ON STOCKS. 3 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:32,565 HOW OFTEN ARE YOU RIGHT? >> WE'RE RIGHT ABOUT 90% OF THE TIME, AND WE'RE WRONG ABOUT 10% OF THE TIME. 4 00:00:32,632 --> 00:00:41,708 >> THE PROBLEM IS THIS MARKET IS EXPLODING WITH NEARLY NO RULES OR OVERSIGHT. >>> IT'S ALMOST LIKE GOING INTO 5 00:00:41,775 --> 00:00:49,416 THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME. THIS IS BIG FOR ME. >> THAT'S JERRY RICE, THE NFL'S GREATEST ALL-TIME WIDE RECEIVER, 6 00:00:49,482 --> 00:00:57,056 TALKING ABOUT HAVING HIS FAMILY'S BACK STORY INCLUDED IN SOMETHING CALLED THE HISTORYMAKERS, AN EXPANSIVE 7 00:00:57,123 --> 00:01:05,131 DIGITAL ARCHIVE OF FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNTS FROM A WHO'S WHO OF BLACK AMERICANS. CREATED BY A NONPARTISAN, 8 00:01:05,198 --> 00:01:13,940 NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION, THERE ARE 3,500 INTERVIEWS SO FAR, NOW STORED AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS. 9 00:01:14,007 --> 00:01:21,080 >>> PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME. >> DO YOU LIKE BOOKS ABOUT ADVENTURE AND HEROISM? TRUE STORIES WITH UNBELIEVABLE 10 00:01:21,147 --> 00:01:25,585 OUTCOMES? THE AUTHOR DAVID GRANN IS YOUR MAN. TODAY HE'S ONE OF THE WORLD'S 11 00:01:25,652 --> 00:01:32,525 TOP-SELLING WRITERS, IN PART, BECAUSE OF HIS HANDS-ON, YEARS-LONG RESEARCH THAT BREATHES LIFE BACK INTO HIS 12 00:01:32,592 --> 00:01:36,996 FEARLESS CHARACTERS. BUT GRANN IS THE FIRST TO ADMIT -- >> I AM NOT AN EXPLORER. 13 00:01:37,063 --> 00:01:42,402 I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DIE ON THE ISLAND. LET'S BE PERFECTLY HONEST. >> WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF DEATH? 14 00:01:42,469 --> 00:01:49,175 WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS OUT. >> TERROR? [ LAUGHTER ] >> I'M LESLEY STAHL. 15 00:01:49,242 --> 00:01:54,280 >> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. >> I'M JON WERTHEIM. 16 00:01:54,347 --> 00:02:00,186 >> I'M CECILIA VEGA. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES TONIGHT ON "60 MINUTES." 17 00:02:00,253 --> 00:02:08,761 CAPTIONING FUNDED BY CBS 18 00:02:08,828 --> 00:02:16,803 >>> EVER HEARD OF "LITIGATION FUNDING"? IT'S A RELATIVELY NEW, MULTIBILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY 19 00:02:16,870 --> 00:02:26,479 WHERE INVESTORS FUND LAWSUITS. HERE'S THE IDEA: SAY SOMEONE WAS WRONGED BY A BIG CORPORATION BUT HAS NO MONEY TO SUE IT. 20 00:02:26,546 --> 00:02:34,554 A LITIGATION FUNDER WILL PAY FOR THEIR COURT BATTLE. IN ESSENCE, THEY'RE BETTING ON THE LAWSUIT THE WAY TRADERS BET 21 00:02:34,621 --> 00:02:43,696 ON STOCKS. IF IT'S SUCCESSFUL, THEY MAKE MONEY, SOMETIMES A LOT OF MONEY. IF IT FAILS, THE FUNDERS GET 22 00:02:43,763 --> 00:02:51,237 NOTHING, THEIR INVESTMENT IS LOST. AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN DECEMBER, LITIGATION FUNDING CAN 23 00:02:51,304 --> 00:03:02,048 HELP IN CASES WHERE OTHERWISE THE LITTLE GUY WHO'S SUING WOULD JUST GET CRUSHED OR LOWBALLED BY DEFENDANTS WITH DEEP POCKETS. 24 00:03:02,115 --> 00:03:14,961 PROBLEM IS THIS MARKET IS EXPLODING WITH NEARLY NO RULES OR OVERSIGHT. >> THIS IS QUITE AN HONOR TO BE 25 00:03:15,028 --> 00:03:20,333 ABLE TO DRIVE YEAR ROUND IN MY TRUCK. >> WE START OUR STORY IN THE ROLLING HILLS OF VENTURA COUNTY, 26 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,738 CALIFORNIA. >> THIS WAS ONE OF OUR FIELDS. >> THIS ONE, TOO? >> WHERE CRAIG UNDERWOOD'S 27 00:03:25,805 --> 00:03:30,577 FAMILY FARM HAD BEEN GROWING JALAPENOS FOR THREE DECADES. >> SO YOU USED TO HAVE PEPPERS AS FAR AS THE EYE COULD SEE. 28 00:03:30,643 --> 00:03:37,584 >> AS YOU WERE DRIVING THROUGH THE VALLEY, PEPPERS WERE EVERYPLACE. >> BUT I HEARD THAT YOU HAD ONE 29 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:45,625 CUSTOMER? >> ONE CUSTOMER, HUY FONG FOODS. >> HUY FONG MAKES THE WORLD-FAMOUS SRIRACHA HOT SAUCE. 30 00:03:45,692 --> 00:03:53,700 IN 2016, THEY ABRUPTLY SEVERED TIES WITH UNDERWOOD. HIS BUSINESS DRIED UP OVERNIGHT. >> IS THERE ANYTHING GROWING 31 00:03:53,766 --> 00:03:58,538 HERE AT ALL? CAN YOU TELL? >> THERE'S NOTHING PLANTED HERE. AND UP HERE, IT'S JUST WEEDS. 32 00:03:58,605 --> 00:04:07,747 >> FACING RUIN, HE SUED HUY FONG FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT AND WON: $23 MILLION. >> BUT THEY APPEALED? 33 00:04:07,814 --> 00:04:13,119 >> THEY APPEALED. >> YOU COULDN'T COLLECT ANY OF THE MONEY? >> NO. 34 00:04:13,186 --> 00:04:18,024 WE WERE LOOKING AT WHETHER WE COULD SURVIVE OR NOT. EVERY WEEK WE WERE TRYING TO FIND ENOUGH CASH TO PAY THE 35 00:04:18,091 --> 00:04:25,498 BILLS, MAKE SURE WE COULD MAKE PAYROLL. >> HE COULDN'T AFFORD TO KEEP FIGHTING, UNTIL HE HEARD OF AN 36 00:04:25,565 --> 00:04:31,437 INVESTMENT FIRM THAT BACKS PEOPLE IN HIS SITUATION. >> WE MAKE THE PLAYING FIELD LEVEL. 37 00:04:31,504 --> 00:04:38,978 AND THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE WANTING IN LITIGATION. >> CHRISTOPHER BOGART IS THE CEO OF BURFORD CAPITAL. 38 00:04:39,045 --> 00:04:45,985 HE FUNDS LITIGANTS AND TAKES A CHUNK OF THEIR AWARD, IF THEY WIN. >> WE ARE A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR 39 00:04:46,052 --> 00:04:51,324 COMPANY BECAUSE LITIGATION IS EXPENSIVE. AND THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF DEMAND FROM BUSINESSES FOR THIS 40 00:04:51,391 --> 00:05:00,600 KIND OF SOLUTION. >> SO IS IT A LOAN? >> IT'S A NONRECOURSE FINANCING. >> WHAT DOES "NONRECOURSE"? 41 00:05:00,667 --> 00:05:07,006 WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? >> WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT IF THE CASE THAT WE'RE FINANCING DOESN'T SUCCEED, THEN WE DON'T 42 00:05:07,073 --> 00:05:15,081 GET OUR MONEY BACK. AND SO IT'S DIFFERENT FROM A LOAN IN THE SENSE THAT A LOAN OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE ALWAYS HAVING 43 00:05:15,148 --> 00:05:21,054 TO PAY BACK THE PRINCIPAL. >> IF YOUR SIDE LOSES, YOU GET NOTHING? >> THAT'S CORRECT. 44 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,925 >> STILL, CRAIG UNDERWOOD WAS TORN, BECAUSE IF HE WON THE APPEAL, BURFORD WOULD GET A BIG CHUNK. 45 00:05:25,992 --> 00:05:32,365 BUT, SEEING NO OTHER CHOICE, HE TOOK $4 MILLION FROM THEM. SOON AFTER, HE WON THE APPEAL AND THE 23 MILLION. 46 00:05:32,432 --> 00:05:40,440 BUT THEN HE HAD TO PAY HIS LAWYERS AND SQUARE AWAY WITH BURFORD. >> WE HAD TO GIVE THEM 47 00:05:40,506 --> 00:05:46,879 $8 MILLION TO PAY FOR THE -- THE 4 THAT WE GOT AND THE 4 THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS THEIR...UM... >> DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU 48 00:05:46,946 --> 00:05:53,886 REALIZED THEY WERE GOING TO CHARGE YOU 100% THAT THAT WAS PREDATORY? >> SOME PEOPLE MIGHT THINK THAT. 49 00:05:53,953 --> 00:06:01,461 I DIDN'T FEEL THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY STEPPED IN AND HELPED US OUT WHEN WE COULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN MONEY FROM ANYBODY ELSE. 50 00:06:01,527 --> 00:06:10,636 THEY BASICALLY RESCUED US. >> FOUNDED IN 2009, BURFORD IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST LITIGATION FUNDER, WITH $5 BILLION INVESTED 51 00:06:10,703 --> 00:06:18,211 IN MULTIPLE LAWSUITS. >> IS IT ACTUALLY SAFER IN TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT TO INVEST IN LITIGATION THAN IN THE STOCK 52 00:06:18,277 --> 00:06:26,252 MARKET? >> WELL, THE BENEFIT THAT YOU GET FROM LITIGATION IS THAT LITIGATION DOESN'T FLUCTUATE THE 53 00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:33,226 SAME WAY THAT THE MARKETS DO. >> WHAT'S YOUR AVERAGE INVESTMENT? >> WHEN WE'RE FINANCING A SINGLE 54 00:06:33,292 --> 00:06:43,970 PIECE OF LITIGATION, IT WOULD BE VERY RARE FOR US TO BE BELOW $5 MILLION. AND IT GOES UP FROM THERE. 55 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:49,942 >> LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A HUGE CASE WITH TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. WHAT KIND OF PERCENTAGE DO YOU 56 00:06:50,009 --> 00:06:56,349 EXPECT TO WIN IN THE END? >> ON AN AVERAGE BASIS, WE'LL LARGELY DOUBLE OUR MONEY. >> ARE THERE CASES WHERE YOU 57 00:06:56,415 --> 00:07:01,254 ACTUALLY WALKED AWAY WITH MORE MONEY THAN THE PLAINTIFF, THE PERSON WHO WAS WRONGED? >> SO THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY 58 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:07,193 OFTEN. >> BUT OCCASIONALLY -- >> IT CERTAINLY CAN HAPPEN. >> THERE'S NO LEGAL LIMIT ON HOW 59 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:14,200 BIG A CHUNK LITIGATION FUNDERS CAN TAKE, AND THE DEALS ARE CONFIDENTIAL. BOGART ARGUES THAT THE REASON 60 00:07:14,267 --> 00:07:21,707 THEY DEMAND SO MUCH IS BECAUSE OF THE BIG RISKS THEY TAKE. BUT ACTUALLY THEY PICK THEIR CASES VERY CAREFULLY. 61 00:07:21,774 --> 00:07:28,181 >> SO THESE ARE ALL LAWYERS? >> INDEED THEY ARE. >> AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING? >> THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY 62 00:07:28,247 --> 00:07:34,620 VETTING POTENTIAL CASES THAT WE MIGHT FINANCE FOR CORPORATE CLIENTS. >> WE CERTAINLY DO DILIGENCE ON 63 00:07:34,687 --> 00:07:40,026 THOSE MATTERS TO TRY TO CHOOSE ONES THAT ARE MERITORIOUS AND THAT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL. >> HOW OFTEN ARE YOU RIGHT? 64 00:07:40,092 --> 00:07:46,465 >> WE'RE RIGHT ABOUT 90% OF THE TIME, AND WE'RE WRONG ABOUT 10% OF THE TIME. >> WHAT IF THE CLIENT THAT 65 00:07:46,532 --> 00:07:55,641 YOU'VE GIVEN ALL THIS MONEY TO, INVESTED IN, WANTS TO SETTLE, AND YOU THINK THAT'S A MISTAKE? >> CLIENTS ARE FREE TO RUN THEIR 66 00:07:55,708 --> 00:08:01,614 LITIGATIONS AS THEY SEE FIT. THEY'RE FREE TO WORK WITH THEIR LAWYERS AS THEY SEE FIT. AND WE DON'T INTERFERE WITH THAT 67 00:08:01,681 --> 00:08:07,486 RELATIONSHIP. IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR THEM TO COME AND ASK FOR OUR ADVICE, BUT IT'S ADVICE. 68 00:08:07,553 --> 00:08:13,960 AND THE CLIENT IS FREE TO DISREGARD THAT ADVICE AND TAKE ITS OWN PATH. >> BUT MAYA STEINITZ, A LAW 69 00:08:14,026 --> 00:08:21,467 PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, SAYS THERE ARE ETHICS RULES FOR LAWYERS, BUT NOT FOR THESE INVESTORS. 70 00:08:21,534 --> 00:08:26,839 >> THE FUNDERS ARE NOT REGULATED. THERE'S NOTHING PRECLUDING THEM LEGALLY FROM PRESSURING A CLIENT 71 00:08:26,906 --> 00:08:32,778 TO SETTLE. THE RULES OF ETHICS ARE VERY CLEAR THAT THE LAWYER HAS TO ABIDE BY THE WISHES OF THE 72 00:08:32,845 --> 00:08:38,150 CLIENT. BUT HUMAN NATURE IS HUMAN NATURE. THERE MAY BE AN INCLINATION TO 73 00:08:38,217 --> 00:08:44,056 BE PULLED TOWARDS THE PERSON WHO IS PAYING. >> WHY IS IT IMPORTANT? WHY SHOULD SOMEONE OUT THERE 74 00:08:44,123 --> 00:08:50,529 WHO'S NOT INVOLVED IN A LAWSUIT CARE? >> FOR MULTIPLE REASONS. FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS THIS NEW 75 00:08:50,596 --> 00:09:04,043 INDUSTRY AND A NEW TYPE OF PLAYER, "LITIGATION FUNDERS," WHO ARE RESHAPING EVERY ASPECT OF THE LITIGATION PROCESS, WHICH 76 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:08,881 CASES GET BROUGHT, HOW LONG THEY ARE PURSUED, WHEN THEY ARE SETTLED. BUT ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING 77 00:09:08,948 --> 00:09:14,253 WITHOUT TRANSPARENCY. SO WE HAVE ONE OF THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, THE JUDICIARY, THAT'S REALLY BEING 78 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:20,726 QUIETLY TRANSFORMED. AND THERE'S -- >> VERY LITTLE OVERSIGHT. >> VERY LITTLE OVERSIGHT. 79 00:09:20,793 --> 00:09:30,403 >> WHO IS WORKING TO IMPOSE REGULATIONS, INSIST ON TRANSPARENCY IN THIS INDUSTRY? >> ONE ENTITY THAT'S BEEN VERY 80 00:09:30,469 --> 00:09:36,309 VOCAL IS THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE THAT REPRESENTS BIG BUSINESSES BECAUSE THE SECTOR THAT'S MOST CONCERNED ABOUT THIS 81 00:09:36,375 --> 00:09:41,180 IS BIG CORPORATIONS. NOW THERE'S MONEY TO SUE THEM, AND THERE'S MONEY TO PERSEVERE, AND NOT TO SETTLE EARLY AT A 82 00:09:41,247 --> 00:09:46,018 DISCOUNT. >> BIG BUSINESS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE REGULATION? HOW INTERESTING, BECAUSE THEY 83 00:09:46,085 --> 00:09:51,390 DON'T LIKE REGULATION. >> GENERALLY. >> EXCEPT WHEN IT HELPS THEM. >> GENERALLY. 84 00:09:51,457 --> 00:09:57,830 >> BURFORD USUALLY FUNDS HUGE CASES, INVOLVING BIG, SOPHISTICATED CORPORATIONS. THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL OF 85 00:09:57,897 --> 00:10:04,303 INVESTMENT FIRMS LIKE IT, WHOSE BUSINESS IS SOLELY INVESTING IN LITIGATION. BUT HEDGE FUNDS, FOREIGN 86 00:10:04,370 --> 00:10:10,743 GOVERNMENT FUNDS, AND WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS ARE ALSO GETTING INTO THIS MARKET. BUT BECAUSE THERE ARE NO 87 00:10:10,810 --> 00:10:18,284 REGULATIONS, IN MOST CASES, LITIGATION FUNDERS REMAIN ANONYMOUS IN COURT. >> IN 2012 A BILLIONAIRE, PETER 88 00:10:18,351 --> 00:10:26,892 THIEL, SECRETLY FUNDED WRESTLER HULK HOGAN'S INVASION OF PRIVACY LAWSUIT AGAINST THE WEBSITE GAWKER THAT DROVE IT OUT OF 89 00:10:26,959 --> 00:10:35,468 BUSINESS. THIEL HAD HIS OWN LONGSTANDING SCORE TO SETTLE WITH THE SITE. >> BUT LITIGATION FUNDING ISN'T 90 00:10:35,534 --> 00:10:42,475 JUST FOR GIANT CASES WITH GAZILLIONS. >> "YOU CAN GET CASH AS SOON AS THE SAME DAY." 91 00:10:42,541 --> 00:10:48,914 >> THESE ADS ARE FOR A WHOLE OTHER CATEGORY OF LITIGATION FUNDING COMPANIES THAT OFFER QUICK CASH. 92 00:10:48,981 --> 00:10:54,854 >> "YOU CAN GET CASH IN AS LITTLE AS 24 HOURS." >> DIRECTLY TO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SUING IN SMALLER CASES, 93 00:10:54,920 --> 00:11:00,226 USUALLY OVER PERSONAL INJURY ACCIDENTS. >> "FROM $500 TO..." >> THEY NEED THE MONEY TO PAY 94 00:11:00,292 --> 00:11:06,732 THEIR HOUSEHOLD BILLS SO THEY CAN HOLD OUT FOR LARGER SETTLEMENTS. >> "THE BEAUTY OF PRE-SETTLEMENT 95 00:11:06,799 --> 00:11:11,604 FUNDING IS THAT IF YOU LOSE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY BACK ANYTHING." >> "CALL NOW!" 96 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:19,678 >> BUT IN THE ADS, IT'S EASY TO MISS THAT IF YOU WIN, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO PAY A HEFTY SUM. >> THIS GROUP OF LITIGATION 97 00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:28,788 FUNDERS CHARGES SO MUCH BECAUSE, AGAIN, THEY SAY THE RISK IS SO HIGH, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT THE APPLICANTS FOR THESE ADVANCES 98 00:11:28,854 --> 00:11:37,396 ARE OFTEN BROKE, INJURED, OUT OF WORK, AND WITH NO ASSETS. BUT WE FOUND RATES RUNNING HIGH EVEN WHEN THERE'S SEEMINGLY 99 00:11:37,463 --> 00:11:46,005 MINIMAL OR NO RISK. >> TAKE THE CASE OF FORMER NYPD OFFICER DONALD SEFCIK WHO WAS ENTITLED TO MONEY FROM THE 9/11 100 00:11:46,072 --> 00:11:53,546 VICTIM'S COMPENSATION FUND. HE BECAME ILL AFTER HE RACED TO GROUND ZERO. >> AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY? 101 00:11:53,612 --> 00:12:02,254 >> I STAYED THERE APPROXIMATELY NINE DAYS. >> INHALING ALL THAT - DUST. >> IT WAS SO MUCH DUST DOWN 102 00:12:02,321 --> 00:12:07,593 THERE THAT YOU COULD NOT SEE YOUR HAND IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. >> SO OBVIOUSLY YOU HAD MEDICAL ISSUES. 103 00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:16,769 >> YEAH. I COULDN'T RUN, I COULDN'T BREATHE. >> SO YOU WERE ENTITLED FROM 104 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:21,607 THAT VICTIMS' COMPENSATION FUND TO GET $90,000. >> YES, I WAS. >> YOU WERE TOLD YOU WOULD GET 105 00:12:21,674 --> 00:12:26,979 $90,000. YOU GOT $10,000 UP FRONT. >> YES. >> HE KNEW HE WOULD EVENTUALLY 106 00:12:27,046 --> 00:12:32,785 GET MORE. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, HE NEEDED MONEY FOR HIS MEDICAL CARE. SO AN AD IN THE PAPER CAUGHT HIS 107 00:12:32,852 --> 00:12:40,926 EYE. >> IT SAID, "R&D LEGAL FUNDING CAN GET YOUR MONEY FASTER. WE CAN CUT THROUGH THE RED 108 00:12:40,993 --> 00:12:46,899 TAPE." AND SO I CALLED RD LEGAL FUNDING, BUT THEN AFTER I SIGNED ALL THE DOCUMENTS AND SENT OVER 109 00:12:46,966 --> 00:12:52,271 TO THEM, THEY CAME BACK AT AN INTEREST RATE THAT I COULDN'T EVEN FIGURE OUT. THE DOCUMENT WAS VERY CONFUSING. 110 00:12:52,338 --> 00:12:59,778 I COULDN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND IT. >> I'M A LAWYER 40 YEARS, I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT. >> MICHAEL BARASCH IS SEFCIK'S 111 00:12:59,845 --> 00:13:08,988 LAWYER. >> THEY LENT HIM $25,000. HE HAD TO REPAY $64,800. >> THAT'S 150%! 112 00:13:09,054 --> 00:13:16,762 >> AND YOU PAID IT? DID YOU -- DID YOU -- >> I HAD NO CHOICE. NO -- I HAD NO CHOICE. 113 00:13:16,829 --> 00:13:23,369 I PAID IT. OUT OF THE $90,000 I ENDED UP WITH ABOUT 30,000 OF IT. I FEEL TOTALLY JUST TAKEN 114 00:13:23,435 --> 00:13:29,275 ADVANTAGE OF. >> THE ARGUMENT FROM THIS INDUSTRY IS THAT THEY TAKE A BIG RISK WHEN THEY INVEST THIS 115 00:13:29,341 --> 00:13:34,113 MONEY. >> THIS IS NOT A CAR ACCIDENT CASE AGAINST A SMALL INSURANCE COMPANY. 116 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:41,120 THIS WAS THE 9/11 VICTIM COMPENSATION FUND CREATED BY CONGRESS AND BACKED BY THE U.S. TREASURY. 117 00:13:41,187 --> 00:13:49,195 >> THE COMPANY TOLD US SEFCIK'S CONTRACT WAS CLEAR, BUT HIS CASE WAS PART OF A LAWSUIT AGAINST RD LEGAL BROUGHT BY THE NEW YORK 118 00:13:49,261 --> 00:13:57,770 ATTORNEY GENERAL. IT SETTLED IN NOVEMBER, THE COMPANY DENIED WRONGDOING BUT HAD TO "PROVIDE OVER $600,000 IN 119 00:13:57,836 --> 00:14:06,979 DEBT RELIEF TO HARMED CONSUMERS," "STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH RECIPIENTS OF 9/11 VICTIM COMPENSATION FUNDS" AND PAY A $1 120 00:14:07,046 --> 00:14:15,588 PENALTY. >> SO HOW DO LITIGATION FUNDERS LIKE THIS GET AWAY WITH CHARGING SUCH EXORBITANT RATES? 121 00:14:15,654 --> 00:14:24,730 IF YOU TAKE OUT, SAY, A CAR LOAN, USURY LAWS THAT PREVENT PREDATORY LENDING CAP THE INTEREST RATE...IN NEW YORK AT 122 00:14:24,797 --> 00:14:32,271 16%. BUT, REMEMBER, THESE AREN'T LOANS PER SE. THEY'RE "INVESTMENTS." 123 00:14:32,338 --> 00:14:38,711 LITIGATION FUNDERS -- FOR GIANT AND PERSONAL CASES -- ARGUE THAT THIS MARKET IS OFFERING A LIFE LINE TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOWHERE 124 00:14:38,777 --> 00:14:48,921 ELSE TO TURN. AND LEGAL SCHOLARS, LIKE MAYA STEINITZ, AGREE. >> ACCESSING THE COURTS IN A 125 00:14:48,988 --> 00:14:53,759 CIVIL PROCESS IS A LUXURY GOOD IN TODAY'S AMERICA. LAWYERS CHARGE HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS BY THE HOUR. 126 00:14:53,826 --> 00:15:00,833 SO IF YOU HAVE BEEN INJURED, IF YOU HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, IF A CONTRACT THAT YOU HAVE ENTERED INTO HAS BEEN 127 00:15:00,899 --> 00:15:05,704 BREACHED, IT'S SIMPLY TOO EXPENSIVE TO BRING YOUR CASE IN COURT. SO I THINK LITIGATION FUNDING IS 128 00:15:05,771 --> 00:15:11,610 ESSENTIAL. HOWEVER, PERSONALLY I THINK THAT LITIGATION FUNDING SHOULD BE REGULATED, BUT I CERTAINLY DON'T 129 00:15:11,677 --> 00:15:14,446 THINK IT SHOULD BE PROHIBITED. 130 00:15:22,521 --> 00:15:29,962 >>> AT A TIME WHEN WE'RE HAVING A NATIONAL DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW BLACK HISTORY FITS INTO THE AMERICAN MOSAIC, WE DISCOVERED 131 00:15:30,029 --> 00:15:35,901 THAT MANY STORIES OF BLACK ACHIEVEMENT ARE SLIPPING AWAY...GOING UNPRESERVED FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS. 132 00:15:35,968 --> 00:15:42,875 A NONPARTISAN, NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION CALLED THE HISTORYMAKERS IS HOPING TO CHANGE THAT, BY CREATING AN 133 00:15:42,941 --> 00:15:50,482 EXPANSIVE DIGITAL ARCHIVE OF FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNTS. AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN FEBRUARY, FOUNDER JULIEANNA 134 00:15:50,549 --> 00:15:59,091 RICHARDSON TOLD US SHE'S DETERMINED TO DOCUMENT THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA, ONE STORY AT A TIME. 135 00:15:59,158 --> 00:16:09,301 >> IN SOCIETY TODAY, WHAT IS BEING DEBATED? WHO HAS VALUE AND WHO DOESN'T? YOU PRESERVE WHAT HAS VALUE, YOU 136 00:16:09,368 --> 00:16:15,774 THROW AWAY WHAT DOESN'T. THAT'S WHY THE PRESERVATION IS SO CRITICAL. JULIEANNA RICHARDSON HAS BEEN 137 00:16:15,841 --> 00:16:21,680 PRESERVING BLACK AMERICAN STORIES FOR THE PAST TWO DECADES. ONE DAY, SHE'S INTERVIEWING THE 138 00:16:21,747 --> 00:16:27,619 FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT OF RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, JONATHAN HOLLOWAY. >> WHAT THINGS DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT? 139 00:16:27,686 --> 00:16:35,694 >> WELL, THE SORT OF THE DAILY RACISM MY SIBLINGS DEALT WITH. >> ANOTHER DAY, IT'S BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR ANITA HILL. 140 00:16:35,761 --> 00:16:45,404 >> IN THREE COUNTIES, THE CENSUS TAKERS ACTUALLY BOTHERED TO LIST THE SLAVES BY NAME. AND THAT'S HOW I MET AND FOUND 141 00:16:45,471 --> 00:16:56,115 OUT WHO MY GREAT, GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE. >> HILL, KNOWN FOR HER TESTIMONY AGAINST CLARENCE THOMAS, WASN'T 142 00:16:56,181 --> 00:17:01,587 EASY TO GET. >> IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME COMING. I'M REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE. 143 00:17:01,653 --> 00:17:09,094 >> WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO HAVE THESE FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNTS? >> HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO KNOW WHAT REALLY HAS HAPPENED IN 144 00:17:09,161 --> 00:17:13,499 THE BLACK COMMUNITY IF YOU DON'T ALLOW THE COMMUNITY TO SPEAK FOR ITSELF? >> YOU'VE CALLED THESE AMERICA'S 145 00:17:13,565 --> 00:17:19,271 MISSING STORIES. >> THEY ARE. THEY'RE AMERICA'S MISSING STORIES. 146 00:17:19,338 --> 00:17:25,210 AND AMERICAN HISTORY WON'T BE COMPLETE WITHOUT THEM. >> RICHARDSON AND HER SMALL STAFF IN CHICAGO HAVE CREATED 147 00:17:25,277 --> 00:17:31,650 THE COUNTRY'S LARGEST COLLECTION OF AFRICAN AMERICAN ORAL HISTORIES. THERE ARE MORE THAN 3,500 148 00:17:31,717 --> 00:17:37,556 INTERVIEWS SO FAR. EACH ONE IS TRANSCRIBED, THEN POSTED ONLINE. IT'S A WHO'S WHO OF BLACK 149 00:17:37,623 --> 00:17:47,266 AMERICA. THERE ARE LUMINARIES LIKE POET MAYA ANGELOU. >> I'M NOT SPEAKING TO BLACKS 150 00:17:47,332 --> 00:17:53,172 AND BLACKS ALONE, OR TALL WOMEN, OR FAT, THIN, OR SH -- NO, I'M TALKING TO EVERYBODY. >> AND THERE ARE RISING STARS, 151 00:17:53,238 --> 00:17:58,544 LIKE A YOUNG BARACK OBAMA. >> WHO WOULD YOU SAY HAS INFLUENCED YOU MOST IN YOUR LIFE? 152 00:17:58,610 --> 00:18:05,150 >> RICHARDSON INTERVIEWED HIM WHEN HE WAS AN ILLINOIS STATE SENATOR. >> NOT JUST DR. KING OR MALCOLM 153 00:18:05,217 --> 00:18:12,624 X, BUT BOB MOSES, AND FANNIE LOU HAMER, AND -- ROSA PARKS. >> THINK ABOUT THIS. THIS IS, LIKE, 2001. 154 00:18:12,691 --> 00:18:19,631 BY 2008 HE'S PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. IT'S EXTRAORDINARY. EXTRAORDINARY IS A GOOD WAY TO 155 00:18:19,698 --> 00:18:25,537 DESCRIBE THE BREADTH AND DEPTH OF THE COLLECTION. >> YOU WANT TO HEAR SOMETHING REAL CRAZY? 156 00:18:25,604 --> 00:18:32,010 >> YES. >> NOT LONG BEFORE HE DIED, BASS-BARITONE WILLIAM WARFIELD GAVE AN IMPROMPTU PERFORMANCE IN 157 00:18:32,077 --> 00:18:45,457 GERMAN WHILE RECOUNTING HIS VIENNA PERFORMANCE OF SHOWBOAT THAT BROUGHT DOWN THE HOUSE. >> EVERYBODY WHO SEES THIS IS 158 00:18:45,524 --> 00:18:52,531 SORT OF ENTHRALLED. >> JULIEANNA RICHARDSON SAYS, AS A CHILD, ALL SHE KNEW OF BLACK HISTORY WAS THAT HER GREAT 159 00:18:52,598 --> 00:18:59,438 GRANDFATHER HAD BEEN ENSLAVED. SHE GREW UP IN A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE OHIO TOWN AND TOLD US WHEN SHE WAS 9, SHE WAS THE ONLY 160 00:18:59,505 --> 00:19:07,012 BLACK STUDENT IN HER CLASS. >> YOU HAD NOT BEEN TAUGHT ANYTHING ABOUT BLACK AMERICAN HISTORY IN SCHOOL. 161 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:13,986 >> NOTHING. BUT I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE. >> NO, I W -- I WASN'T EITHER. >> IT'S A COMMON STORY. 162 00:19:14,052 --> 00:19:20,993 >> AS A SOPHOMORE AT BRANDEIS, SHE TRAVELED TO NEW YORK'S SCHOMBURG LIBRARY FOR A PROJECT ON THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE. 163 00:19:21,059 --> 00:19:28,534 SHE HAD AN EPIPHANY WHILE LISTENING TO A SONG. ♪ I'M JUST WILD ABOUT HARRY ♪ >> SHE THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT 164 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:37,709 PRESIDENT HARRY TRUMAN. >> I LEARNED FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS SONG IS WRITTEN BY A BLACK SONGWRITING TEAM OF NOBLE 165 00:19:37,776 --> 00:19:44,149 SISSLE AND EUBIE BLAKE IN THE 1921 PRODUCTION OF "SHUFFLE ALONG" ON BROADWAY. I MEAN, IT WAS, LIKE, "WHOA, AND 166 00:19:44,216 --> 00:19:52,190 I'M LISTENING TO THE MUSIC. ♪ I'M JUST WILD ABOUT HARRY ♪ ♪ HARRY'S WILD ABOUT ME ♪ AND IT WAS LIKE IT OPENED THE 167 00:19:52,257 --> 00:19:59,698 APPETITE. AND I'M READING, AND I'M STUDYING, AND I'M LISTENING, AND I'M HEARING -- I'M HEARING THESE 168 00:19:59,765 --> 00:20:05,637 THINGS THAT I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF, FOR THE FIRST TIME. >> THE SPARK WAS LIT, BUT DIDN'T CATCH FIRE. 169 00:20:05,704 --> 00:20:11,543 HER FATHER HAD WANTED HER TO BE A LAWYER. AFTER HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, SHE HAD A SUCCESSFUL CAREER AS A 170 00:20:11,610 --> 00:20:16,949 CORPORATE LAWYER AND CABLE ENTREPRENEUR. BUT SHE WAS RESTLESS. >> I WAS IN MY MID-40s. 171 00:20:17,015 --> 00:20:25,057 I DIDN'T HAVE CHILDREN. YOU GET TO A POINT IN YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU START ASKING, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS GOING TO BE YOUR 172 00:20:25,123 --> 00:20:30,395 LEAVE-BEHIND? WHAT IS GOING TO BE YOUR LEGACY? AND I WANTED TO DO GOOD IN MY LIFE. 173 00:20:30,462 --> 00:20:36,835 >> AS SHE MULLED HER FUTURE, SHE WENT TO A LEGAL CONFERENCE IN MEMPHIS AND HEARD THE REVEREND BILLY KYLES, WHO WAS ON THE 174 00:20:36,902 --> 00:20:43,308 HOTEL BALCONY WITH DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. WHEN HE WAS ASSASSINATED. RICHARDSON REALIZED THERE WERE 175 00:20:43,375 --> 00:20:51,383 LOTS OF IMPORTANT STORIES LIKE HIS. >> AT THAT MOMENT THE NAME, "HISTORYMAKERS," CAME TO ME. 176 00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:58,357 AND I CAME BACK AND I WAS, LIKE, "I KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO DO. IT'S CALLED THE HISTORYMAKERS, AND IT'S GOING TO BE AN ARCHIVE 177 00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:11,103 OF BLACK PEOPLE." >> IN THE BEGINNING, DID YOU HAVE A LOT OF ENCOURAGEMENT? >> WELL, MY FRIENDS DID AN 178 00:21:11,169 --> 00:21:17,209 INTERVENTION. THEY LITERALLY DID AN INTERVENTION. >> WITH NO MONEY, NO FORMAL 179 00:21:17,275 --> 00:21:22,014 TRAINING IN ORAL HISTORY OR PROFESSIONAL ARCHIVING, SHE LAUNCHED THE HISTORYMAKERS IN 1999. 180 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,852 AT FIRST IT WASN'T EASY TO GET PEOPLE TO SHARE THEIR INTIMATE STORIES WITH A STRANGER. BUT SHE CONVINCED A TUSKEGEE 181 00:21:26,918 --> 00:21:32,257 AIRMAN, COLONEL BILL THOMPSON. >> WE WERE FLYING NOW WITH WHITE GUYS. >> HE SAYS, "HAVE YOU HEARD OF 182 00:21:32,324 --> 00:21:37,629 THE GOLDEN THIRTEEN?" AND I SAID, "NO, COLONEL THOMPSON, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THE GOLDEN THIRTEEN." 183 00:21:37,696 --> 00:21:43,001 AND HE SAID, "WELL, THEY WERE THE NAVY'S VERSION OF THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN." AND HE SAID, "FOUR ARE LEFT 184 00:21:43,068 --> 00:21:49,474 LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, AND ONE LIVES UPSTAIRS. AND HE WANTS TO TALK TO YOU ALSO." 185 00:21:49,541 --> 00:21:56,448 AND IT WAS JUST AT THAT POINT THAT I -- YOU KNOW, I KNEW WE WERE AT A POINT OF DISCOVERING. >> BY 2012, SHE HAD DISCOVERED 186 00:21:56,515 --> 00:22:03,488 SO MUCH, THE ARCHIVE HAD GROWN SO VAST, THE COLLECTION SO SIGNIFICANT, THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AGREED TO BECOME ITS 187 00:22:03,555 --> 00:22:09,961 PERMANENT REPOSITORY...ALONGSIDE THE ONLY OTHER PROJECT OF ITS MAGNITUDE, THE WPA SLAVE NARRATIVES, RECORDED DURING THE 188 00:22:10,028 --> 00:22:18,570 GREAT DEPRESSION. >> I GO, "OH, MY GOD, THE STORIES OF THE FORMERLY ENSLAVED AND THE STORIES OF THE PROGENY 189 00:22:18,637 --> 00:22:27,713 OF THE FORMERLY ENSLAVED ARE ALL TOGETHER." >> IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS -- >> IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS. 190 00:22:27,779 --> 00:22:36,321 DOESN'T GET BETTER THAN THAT. JULIEANNA RICHARDSON IS NOT ONE TO REST ON HER LAURELS. WHEN SHE'S NOT CONDUCTING 191 00:22:36,388 --> 00:22:43,862 INTERVIEWS OR RESEARCHING NEW SUBJECTS, SHE'S EVEN WORKING ON ME - SHE'S FUNDRAISING. >> EVERY INTERVIEW COSTS US 192 00:22:43,929 --> 00:22:50,302 $6,000 TO PROCESS. >> WHEN SHE REALIZED THE ARCHIVE NEEDED MORE ATHLETES, SHE PERSUADED THE NFL TO DONATE 193 00:22:50,368 --> 00:22:57,843 HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF ITS OWN INTERVIEWS WITH BLACK PLAYERS. LAST YEAR, SHE LANDED HALL OF FAME WIDE RECEIVER JERRY RICE, 194 00:22:57,909 --> 00:23:03,849 WHO COULDN'T BELIEVE HE GOT THE CALL. >> BECAUSE IT'S ALMOST JUST LIKE GOING INTO THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL 195 00:23:03,915 --> 00:23:10,322 OF FAME. THIS IS BIG FOR ME. >> RICE SHOWED US THE 49ers MUSEUM IN THEIR HOME STADIUM. 196 00:23:10,388 --> 00:23:15,127 >> SO WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE FOOTBALLS? >> WELL, THESE REPRESENT ALL MY TOUCHDOWNS. 197 00:23:15,193 --> 00:23:25,337 >> ALL OF THIS? >> YEAH, ALL OF THIS RIGHT HERE. >> HE SCORED 208 TOUCHDOWNS OVER 20 SEASONS, STILL AN NFL RECORD. 198 00:23:25,403 --> 00:23:33,378 HE PLAYED IN FOUR SUPER BOWLS, WON THREE, AND SNAGGED A SUPER BOWL MVP. BUT RICE SAID THE HISTORYMAKERS 199 00:23:33,445 --> 00:23:38,784 WANTED TO KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT HIS UPBRINGING IN RURAL MISSISSIPPI. >> DID YOU HAVE PLUMBING, INDOOR PLUMBING? 200 00:23:38,850 --> 00:23:43,622 >> NO, WE DIDN'T. IT WAS OUTDOOR. >> HE TOLD US POVERTY FUELED HIS DRIVE FOR SUCCESS. 201 00:23:43,688 --> 00:23:51,163 >> WE WERE VERY POOR. VERY POOR. MY FATHER WAS A BRICKLAYER. AND HE WOULD TAKE ME TO WORK 202 00:23:51,229 --> 00:23:57,102 WITH HIM DURING THE SUMMER. VERY DEMANDING WORK. I USED TO BE UP ON THIS SCAFFOLD THAT WAS PROBABLY ABOUT 20 FEET 203 00:23:57,169 --> 00:24:04,142 IN THE AIR. AND MY BROTHERS DOWN BELOW, THEY WOULD TOSS THE BRICKS UP. AND I WOULD SNATCH THE BRICKS 204 00:24:04,209 --> 00:24:11,683 OUT OF THE AIR. AND I ALWAYS PRIDED MYSELF ON, YOU KNOW, BEING THAT S -- REALLY STRONG LINK. 205 00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:19,791 >> WHAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT YOUR STORY FOR ANYBODY WHO STARTS SEARCHING FOR YOU? >> WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION, 206 00:24:19,858 --> 00:24:25,664 WHEN THEY SEE SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, WHO LOOKS LIKE THEM AND SAY, "HEY, LOOK, THAT GUY, HE MADE IT," THAT MIGHT BE THAT 207 00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:32,671 LITTLE -- THAT LITTLE KICK, THAT LITTLE NUDGE TO MAKE THEM WORK A LITTLE BIT HARDER. >> JULIEANNA RICHARDSON BELIEVES 208 00:24:32,737 --> 00:24:47,219 STORIES OF STRUGGLE AND SUCCESS ARE POWERFUL MOTIVATORS FOR ALL RACES, ESPECIALLY YOUNG MINDS. SO SHE'S CONVINCED MORE THAN 180 209 00:24:47,285 --> 00:24:55,060 COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO SUBSCRIBE TO HISTORYMAKERS. AND SHE RECENTLY ROLLED OUT A NEW CURRICULUM FOR SCHOOLS IN 210 00:24:55,126 --> 00:24:59,898 NEW YORK, ATLANTA, CHICAGO, AND CHARLOTTE. >> DID YOU KNOW IMMEDIATELY THAT YOU WANTED TO USE IT IN THE 211 00:24:59,965 --> 00:25:05,904 CLASSROOM? >> YES, I DID. >> LAST YEAR, WE VISITED TEACHER RACHEL DAVIS AND HER SOCIAL 212 00:25:05,971 --> 00:25:11,877 STUDIES CLASS AT O.W. HUTH MIDDLE SCHOOL NEAR CHICAGO. THE STUDENT BODY IS LARGELY AFRICAN AMERICAN AND MANY HAD 213 00:25:11,943 --> 00:25:18,250 LOST FAMILY MEMBERS IN THE PANDEMIC. >> SOMETIMES IN ONE HOUSEHOLD, IT WAS THREE OR FOUR. 214 00:25:18,316 --> 00:25:23,688 A GRANDPARENT, AN AUNT, A COUSIN. AND THEN WE HAD STUDENTS WHO WERE STARTING TO HAVE A LOT OF 215 00:25:23,755 --> 00:25:30,695 ANXIETY, DEPRESSION. >> DAVIS SAW THE PERFECT SALVE IN THE HISTORYMAKERS CURRICULUM "FROM LOSS TO THRIVING." 216 00:25:30,762 --> 00:25:37,736 SHE HAD HER STUDENTS BROWSE THE ARCHIVES AND PICK HISTORYMAKERS WHO HAD OVERCOME ADVERSITY. >> WHO DID YOU END UP CHOOSING 217 00:25:37,802 --> 00:25:42,507 FOR YOUR PROJECT? >> I CHOSE THE HONORABLE BLANCHE M. MANNING. SHE'S A UNITED STATES DISTRICT 218 00:25:42,574 --> 00:25:48,446 COURT JUDGE. >> LENA WILLIAMS. SHE WAS A SPORTS REPORTER. >> RODNEY ADKINS. 219 00:25:48,513 --> 00:25:55,954 HE'S PART OF THE IBM INDUSTRY. >> ANDRE SAMUEL, LOREN ROUNDS, AND TYLER RUSH TOLD US THEY FOUND THE RECORD OF BLACK 220 00:25:56,021 --> 00:26:04,663 ACHIEVEMENT TO BE RICHER AND MORE DIVERSE THAN THEY HAD EVER IMAGINED OR BEEN TAUGHT. >> FROM MAYBE KINDERGARTEN TO 221 00:26:04,729 --> 00:26:10,068 SIXTH GRADE, WE HEARD THE S -- MLK, ROSA PARKS -- >> YEAH. >> -- MALCOLM X. 222 00:26:10,135 --> 00:26:15,407 >> EVERY SINGLE YEAR I WAS LIKE -- >> THE SAME PEOPLE. >> EVERY YEAR. 223 00:26:15,473 --> 00:26:21,346 >> MADAME C.J. WALKER. THE SAME PEOPLE. >> HAS IT CHANGED NOW THAT YOU'VE MET SOME PEOPLE WHO MAY 224 00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:26,217 NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE HISTORY BOOKS? >> IT'S A LOT EASIER TO ACTUALLY SEE WHAT WE WENT THROUGH AND HOW 225 00:26:26,284 --> 00:26:31,556 WE PERSEVERED THROUGH IT, AND IT JUST SHOWS HOW STRONG WE ARE, REALLY. >> AND THINK ABOUT THIS. 226 00:26:31,623 --> 00:26:38,029 WHAT IF I HAD HAD OUR ARCHIVES BACK WHEN I WAS 9? >> WHEN YOU WERE THAT 9-YEAR-OLD GIRL. 227 00:26:38,096 --> 00:26:45,036 >> THINK ABOUT THAT. I MEAN, THERE WAS ACTUALLY BLACK HISTORY IN MY TOWN, JUST YARDS FROM WHERE I WAS. 228 00:26:45,103 --> 00:26:50,442 THERE WAS A MAN NAMED SHACKLEFORD WHO SAT AT -- WITH HIS GUN POINT, DARING THE WHITE COMMUNITY TO TEAR DOWN HIS 229 00:26:50,508 --> 00:26:56,314 SCHOOL FOR BLACK KIDS. THE FIFTH PRESIDENT OF LIBERIA WAS BORN IN NEWARK, OHIO, IN EIGHT -- 230 00:26:56,381 --> 00:27:02,821 >> IN YOUR HOMETOWN. >> -- IN MY HOMETOWN, IN 1815. I'M THINKING THERE'S NO BLACK HISTORY, BUT IT WAS ALL AROUND 231 00:27:02,887 --> 00:27:08,226 ME. AND THAT'S WHAT THE KIDS -- IT'S ALL AROUND THEM, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW IT. 232 00:27:08,293 --> 00:27:14,666 THEY DON'T TOUCH IT SO THEY CAN'T ASPIRE TO BE WHAT THEY DON'T REALLY SEE. >> BUT NOW BECAUSE OF YOUR 233 00:27:14,733 --> 00:27:19,504 ARCHIVES, THEY CAN KNOW. >> THEY CAN. >> THAT'S GOT TO BE REWARDING. >> YES, IT IS. 234 00:27:19,571 --> 00:27:28,146 BUT OUR WORK IS NOT DONE. >> JULIEANNA RICHARDSON IS NOW ON A MISSION TO COLLECT AND DIGITIZE THE PAPERS OF 235 00:27:28,213 --> 00:27:32,951 HISTORYMAKERS -- THESE BELONGED TO ENTERTAINER EARTHA KITT -- AND SHE FOUND A WILLING PARTNER IN FORD FOUNDATION PRESIDENT 236 00:27:33,018 --> 00:27:43,695 DARREN WALKER. >> THIS ORGANIZATION IS, INDEED, A NATIONAL TREASURE. AND YOU, JULIEANNA, ARE A 237 00:27:43,762 --> 00:27:51,970 NATIONAL TREASURE. AND SO I'M VERY, VERY HAPPY TO MAKE THIS PLEDGE OF $1 MILLION TO YOUR GREAT WORK. 238 00:27:52,037 --> 00:28:00,178 [ APPLAUSE ] >> I'VE WORKED 24/7 FOR 22 YEARS. AND I'M SURROUNDED BY THESE -- 239 00:28:00,245 --> 00:28:13,158 SUCH RICH STORIES. TILL I TAKE MY LAST BREATH, I MEAN, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE A PART OF ME. 240 00:28:13,224 --> 00:28:26,104 AND THE LITTLE GIRL, I MEAN, I'M NOW -- A VERY RICHLY ENDOWED PERSON THAT NO ONE CAN TELL ME THAT ME AND MY PEOPLE DON'T HAVE 241 00:28:26,171 --> 00:28:30,742 TREMENDOUS VALUE. NO ONE CAN TELL ME THAT, EVER. 242 00:28:41,019 --> 00:28:47,392 >>> SOME AUTHORS ARE PERFECT MATCHES FOR THEIR SUBJECT MATTER: JOHN GRISHAM WAS ONCE A TRIAL LAWYER. 243 00:28:47,459 --> 00:28:53,832 JOHN le CARRÉ WAS ONCE A SPY BY ANOTHER NAME. THEN, THERE'S DAVID GRANN, WHO HAS EMERGED AS ONE OF THE 244 00:28:53,898 --> 00:29:03,074 WORLD'S TOP-SELLING WRITERS -- AND DARLING OF HOLLYWOOD DEVELOPERS -- BY VENTURING INTO UNKNOWN WORLDS, ABANDONING HIS 245 00:29:03,141 --> 00:29:07,879 COMFORT ZONE. THE UNLIKELY ADVENTURES OF DAVID GRANN. HIS LATEST BOOK "THE WAGER," 246 00:29:07,946 --> 00:29:14,352 TELLS OF BRITISH CASTAWAYS FROM THE 1740s. IT'S AN OPEN-WATER QUEST THAT BECOMES A SAGA OF SHIPWRECK, 247 00:29:14,419 --> 00:29:19,157 ANARCHY, BETRAYAL, AND MURDER. IMAGINE "MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY" MEETS "LORD OF THE FLIES" -- EXCEPT EVERY WORD OF IT REALLY 248 00:29:19,224 --> 00:29:26,698 HAPPENED. AS WE FIRST TOLD YOU IN APRIL, GRANN'S SUCCESS COMES, YES, FROM METICULOUS REPORTING AND VIVID 249 00:29:26,764 --> 00:29:33,171 WRITING, BUT ALSO FROM HOW HE PUTS THE PIECES TOGETHER. >> THE YOU TALK ABOUT STRUCTURING THESE STORIES AS A 250 00:29:33,238 --> 00:29:38,042 PUZZLE. >> YES. >> IS THERE ONLY ONE WAY TO SOLVE THIS PUZZLE? 251 00:29:38,109 --> 00:29:46,084 >> [ LAUGHTER ] WELL, I -- I'M VERY WEIRD ABOUT THIS. I DO ALWAYS THINK THERE IS SOME 252 00:29:46,151 --> 00:29:50,421 KIND OF IDYLLIC FORM OF A STORY, LIKE, SOME, LIKE, PERFECT, PRISTINE, LOST CITY THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO FIND AND GET TO. 253 00:29:50,488 --> 00:29:57,996 >> IF YOU WERE GOING TO STRUCTURE THE DAVID GRANN STORY, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST? WHERE WOULD WE START? 254 00:29:58,062 --> 00:30:07,138 >> OH, GOSH, IN SOME ARCHIVE, LOOKING SEMI-BLIND AT SOME DOCUMENT. THAT'S WHERE IT ALWAYS BEGINS. 255 00:30:07,205 --> 00:30:13,011 >> WE CAN WORK WITH THAT. WE FIND OUR SUBJECT INSIDE THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN THE SUBURBS OF LONDON, UNBOXING DUSTY FILES, 256 00:30:13,077 --> 00:30:17,882 CONSULTING DOCUMENTS SO FRAIL, THEY REQUIRE A PILLOW FOR SUPPORT. GRANN SPENT TWO YEARS PLAYING 257 00:30:17,949 --> 00:30:23,221 DETECTIVE, GATHERING FACTS, SOURCE MATERIAL FOR HIS LATEST BOOK. >> WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TOUCH 258 00:30:23,288 --> 00:30:29,160 THIS REALLY CAREFULLY. >> HE TOOK US TUMBLING BACK IN TIME TO THE 18th CENTURY. >> YOU SEE THAT? 259 00:30:29,227 --> 00:30:35,600 >> COMMUNING WITH LOGBOOKS, MUSTER BOOKS, AND DIARIES FROM THE EXPEDITION OF THE HMS WAGER, THE WARSHIP FEATURED IN HIS 260 00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:41,539 BOOK. >> AND HERE YOU SEE THE LITTLE INITIALS NEXT TO THEIR NAMES HERE. 261 00:30:41,606 --> 00:30:46,377 YOU'LL SEE LIEUTENANT. YOU'LL SEE "AB" MEANS ABLE SEAMAN. >> HOW ARE YOU DECIPHERING THIS? 262 00:30:46,444 --> 00:30:52,850 >> WHEN I FIRST LOOKED AT A LOT OF THESE BOOKS, IT WAS LIKE READING GIBBERISH. [ LAUGHTER ] 263 00:30:52,917 --> 00:30:59,090 I WAS LIKE, WHAT IS THIS TELLING ME? AND SO I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT IT AGAIN, LOOK AT IT AGAIN, 264 00:30:59,157 --> 00:31:04,529 START TO FIGURE OUT THE CODES, THE LANGUAGE THEY USED. BUT ONCE YOU DO, THESE DOCUMENTS SPEAK VOLUMES. 265 00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:08,800 >> ALL THESE NAMES AND SYMBOLS TOLD A LARGER STORY. WITH THEIR EMPIRES AT WAR, A BRITISH SQUADRON OF ROUGHLY 266 00:31:08,866 --> 00:31:17,308 2,000 MEN SET OUT TO CAPTURE A SPANISH GALLEON FILLED WITH TREASURE OFF THE PHILIPPINES. THAT MEANT ROUNDING CAPE HORN, 267 00:31:17,375 --> 00:31:23,081 NEGOTIATING SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST TREACHEROUS WATERS AND WINDS. BUT, ONE OF THE SHIPS IN THE 268 00:31:23,147 --> 00:31:27,919 SQUADRON LOST ITS WAY JUST OFF THE COAST OF PATAGONIA. GRANN SHOWED US ON HIS OWN MAP WHERE THE WAGER GOT INTO 269 00:31:27,986 --> 00:31:32,223 TROUBLE, A PLACE APTLY NAMED. >> THE GULF OF PAIN. >> THEY'RE BARRELLING INTO THE GULF OF PAIN. 270 00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:38,663 AS THEY'RE COMING AROUND, THEY'RE DESPERATELY, FRANTICALLY TRYING TO AVOID THIS LAND. >> THE WAGER CAREENED INTO 271 00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:45,136 ROCKS, RIPPING APART. 145 CASTAWAYS, MANY SICK FROM SCURVY, SWAM TO THE NEAREST ISLAND. 272 00:31:45,203 --> 00:31:52,677 YOU'D THINK THE NAME ALONE -- THE GULF OF PAIN -- WOULD DISCOURAGE VISITORS, ESPECIALLY ONE BESPECTACLED 56-YEAR-OLD MAN 273 00:31:52,744 --> 00:32:03,921 WHO ADMITS HE HATES CAMPING. >> I SPENT THE FIRST TWO YEARS DOING RESEARCH, IN A WAY VERY SUITED TO MY PHYSICAL 274 00:32:03,988 --> 00:32:09,460 ATTRIBUTES. [ LAUGHTER ] -- WHICH IS IN ARCHIVES. >> YOU'RE INDOORS. 275 00:32:09,527 --> 00:32:15,366 >> YES. [ LAUGHTER ] INDOORS. BUT THERE CAME A POINT WHERE I 276 00:32:15,433 --> 00:32:20,772 BEGAN TO FEAR THAT I COULD NEVER FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE 150 OR SO MEN HAD GONE THROUGH ON THAT ISLAND UNLESS I WENT. 277 00:32:20,838 --> 00:32:26,144 THERE'S ALWAYS A MOMENT WHERE SOMETHING GNAWS AT YOU, SOMETHING UNKNOWN. AND SO IT WAS THEN THAT I 278 00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:30,448 DECIDED TO TRY TO MAKE THIS TRIP. >> SO IN 2019, GRANN FLEW TO CHILE AND CHARTERED A 52-FOOT 279 00:32:30,515 --> 00:32:35,286 VESSEL... >> THE BOAT LOOKED -- YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED PRETTY BIG. I THOUGHT, THIS IS GOOD, THIS IS 280 00:32:35,353 --> 00:32:41,759 GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE A JACQUE COUSTEAU EXPEDITION. WE'RE GOING TO BE FINE. 281 00:32:41,826 --> 00:32:47,131 WE KIND OF STAY ORIGINALLY THROUGH THESE CHANNELS THAT ARE SHELTERED IN PATAGONIA. I THINK, IT'S PERFECT, IT'S 282 00:32:47,198 --> 00:32:51,969 BEAUTIFUL, IT'S A LITTLE COLD, IT'S WINTER, BUT IT'S BEAUTIFUL. AND THEN THERE'S SORT OF A POINT WHERE THE CAPTAIN SAYS TO ME, 283 00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:57,342 "ALL RIGHT NOW WE GOT TO GO INTO THE OPEN SEA IF WE'RE GOING TO GET TO WAGER ISLAND." AND THAT WAS MY FIRST GLIMPSE OF 284 00:32:57,408 --> 00:33:03,314 THESE TERRIFYING SEAS. >> ROUGH SEAS. >> IT WAS TRULY TERRIFYING -- OR AT LEAST FOR ME. 285 00:33:03,381 --> 00:33:08,152 [ LAUGHTER ] LET ME SAY, MY CAPTAIN SEEMED COOL. [ LAUGHTER ] 286 00:33:08,219 --> 00:33:12,490 >> GRANN AND HIS CREW ENDURED THE MOODY WATERS OVER A TEN-DAY JOURNEY. >> I HAD TO SIT ON THE FLOOR 287 00:33:12,557 --> 00:33:18,930 HUNKERED DOWN. THE DRAMAMINE WAS PUMPING IN ME. >> THIS IS WAGER ISLAND, NAMED FOR THE SHIP THAT WASHED UP 300 288 00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:24,836 YEARS AGO. A SPIT OF INHOSPITABLE LAND, HUGGING THE PACIFIC COAST. SCENIC FROM A DISTANCE BUT YOU 289 00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:30,775 WOULDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE NIGHT. THE CASTAWAYS DID MONTHS IN UNRELENTING COLD AND WHIPPING 290 00:33:30,842 --> 00:33:37,281 WINDS. YOU KNOW IT'S BAD WHEN CELERY IS THE BIG SELLING POINT, THE ONLY EDIBLE THING THAT GROWS ON THE 291 00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:43,154 ISLAND. THOUGH IT DOES CURE SCURVY. >> THERE WERE NO ANIMALS. I KEPT THINKING, "OH, THERE'S 292 00:33:43,221 --> 00:33:49,093 GOT TO BE SOMETHING, LIKE SOMETHING, THERE'S GOT TO BE A RAT." BUT WE COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING. 293 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:55,032 >> THIS DEPTH OF DETAIL, IT'S GRANN'S EARMARK. HE'S CREATED HIS OWN SUBGENRE OF NARRATIVE NONFICTION, KEEPING 294 00:33:55,099 --> 00:34:02,607 READERS HANGING WITH A PAGE-TURNING MIX OF HISTORY, JOURNALISM AND TRUE CRIME. BUT IT'S ALSO LITERARY 295 00:34:02,673 --> 00:34:07,545 POINTILLISM. YOU STEP BACK AND GLIMPSE A LARGER TABLEAU - ONE WITH BROADER THEMES. 296 00:34:07,612 --> 00:34:12,850 >> THIS FASCINATES YOU? >> OH, YEAH, YEAH. WELL, YOU SEE, I MEAN, ON THIS ISLAND YOU SEE EVERYTHING 297 00:34:12,917 --> 00:34:17,722 PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE QUESTIONS OF LEADERSHIP PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE QUESTIONS OF LOYALTY 298 00:34:17,789 --> 00:34:23,628 PLAYING OUT, QUESTIONS OF DUTY PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE HUMAN NATURE BEING PEELED BACK. 299 00:34:23,694 --> 00:34:28,499 ALL THAT IS TAKING PLACE IN THIS LITTLE TEMPEST. >> AND THIS WAS NO ONE-OFF. FOR HIS FIRST BOOK, 2009'S "THE 300 00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:33,304 LOST CITY OF Z," A NUMBER-ONE BESTSELLER TURNED INTO A FEATURE FILM... >> EVERYONE OUT OF THE BOAT. 301 00:34:33,371 --> 00:34:38,709 >> GRANN TREKKED THROUGH THE AMAZON -- TO A PLACE KNOWN AS THE GREEN HELL -- FOLLOWING THE TRAIL OF A BRITISH EXPLORER, 302 00:34:38,776 --> 00:34:44,081 PERCY FAWCETT. >> DID I HEAR RIGHT, YOU TOOK OUT SUPPLEMENTAL LIFE INSURANCE -- 303 00:34:44,148 --> 00:34:49,454 >> YES, I DID. I MADE SURE I GOT EXTRA TRAVEL INSURANCE. I HAD A LITTLE CHILD AT THE 304 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,826 TIME. THERE IS SOMETHING -- AND I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT, AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING I REALLY LIKE 305 00:34:54,892 --> 00:35:00,231 TO TALK ABOUT -- BUT THERE IS SOMETHING SELFISH ABOUT THESE JOURNEYS AND EVEN SOMETHING ABOUT THE PEOPLE I WRITE ABOUT 306 00:35:00,298 --> 00:35:05,670 BECAUSE MANY OF THEM DIE ON THESE EXPEDITIONS. >> GRANN'S SWASHBUCKLING TAKES ON AN ADDED DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY 307 00:35:05,736 --> 00:35:11,542 ON ACCOUNT OF A DEGENERATIVE EYE CONDITION HE'S HAD SINCE HIS 20s. >> WHAT'S THE IMPACT OF THAT ON 308 00:35:11,609 --> 00:35:16,948 YOUR WORK? >> I MEAN, IT'S TERRIBLE WHEN YOU'RE ON AN EXPEDITION LIKE, YOU'RE, LIKE, CAN'T SEE AT 309 00:35:17,014 --> 00:35:21,219 NIGHT, AND YOU'RE STUMBLING, GETTING LOST, OR YOU'RE FALLING, OR YOU'RE ON A BOAT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT BUT BECAUSE I KNOW I 310 00:35:21,285 --> 00:35:26,123 HAVE THIS WEAKNESS, I'M VERY ACUTELY OBSERVING AS MUCH AS I CAN. AND IN SOME WAYS, MAYBE PAYING 311 00:35:26,190 --> 00:35:30,928 MORE OBSERVATION THAN IF I COULD JUST TAKE IT IN SO EASILY. >> GRANN FIRST PUT THOSE POWERS OF OBSERVATION TO WORK AS A 312 00:35:30,995 --> 00:35:36,868 REPORTER ON CAPITOL HILL. BUT, TIRED OF WASHINGTON SPIN, HE WANTED TO WRITE REAL STORIES. IN 2003, HE JOINED "THE NEW 313 00:35:36,934 --> 00:35:42,773 YORKER" MAGAZINE. IN ONE ISSUE, HE MIGHT WRITE ABOUT AN ECCENTRIC GIANT SQUID HUNTER IN NEW ZEALAND. 314 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:48,713 IN ANOTHER, A BOTCHED DEATH PENALTY CONVICTION IN TEXAS. ALL OF IT PREDICTED ON EXHAUSTIVE RESEARCH. 315 00:35:48,779 --> 00:35:54,619 >> PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME. [ LAUGHTER ] >> FROM HIS OFFICE, ITSELF AN INHOSPITABLE LAND OF SORTS. 316 00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:59,457 >> WOW. >> AT HIS HOME IN A SUBURB OF NEW YORK, GRANN SHOWED US A PILE OF RESEARCH FROM HIS 2017 BOOK 317 00:35:59,524 --> 00:36:06,531 "KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON." THE BOOK CENTERED ON THE MYSTERIOUS DEATHS AMONG MEMBERS OF THE OIL-RICH OSAGE NATION IN 318 00:36:06,597 --> 00:36:14,639 1920s OKLAHOMA. AND -- BOXED UP IN AN ARCHIVE, WHERE ELSE? -- GRANN FOUND A SMOKING GUN, EVIDENCE OF A 319 00:36:14,705 --> 00:36:20,545 SYSTEMIC MURDER CAMPAIGN BY OUTSIDERS. >> THIS WAS SECRET GRAND JURY TESTIMONY. 320 00:36:20,611 --> 00:36:25,416 AND -- AND IT WAS UNMARKED. I MEAN IT WAS A PUBLIC RECORD, BUT I WAS, LIKE, "IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE -- AM I ALLOWED 321 00:36:25,483 --> 00:36:30,755 TO LOOK AT THIS?" [ LAUGHTER ] >> THE BOOK HAS SOLD NEARLY 2 MILLION COPIES, AND IT IGNITED A 322 00:36:30,821 --> 00:36:36,694 HOLLYWOOD AUCTION. THE WINNING BID: $5 MILLION. THE FILM -- DIRECTED BY MARTIN SCORSESE, STARRING LEONARDO 323 00:36:36,761 --> 00:36:42,033 DiCAPRIO -- PREMIERED AT CANNES THIS SPRING. PARAMOUNT, PARENT COMPANY OF CBS, IS A DISTRIBUTOR. 324 00:36:42,099 --> 00:36:48,005 IT'S NOT LOST ON GRANN THAT STORIES BIRTHED IN DECIDEDLY UNGLAMOROUS ARCHIVES, END UP ON RED CARPETS IN THE FRENCH 325 00:36:48,072 --> 00:36:54,979 RIVIERA. THE WAGER, ANOTHER BEST SELLER, HAS ALSO BEEN OPTIONED FOR FILM. IT WOULD BE GRANN'S SIXTH STORY 326 00:36:55,046 --> 00:36:59,784 TO HIT THE BIG SCREEN. >> DO YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT HOLLYWOOD'S GOING TO DO TO YOUR WORK? 327 00:36:59,850 --> 00:37:05,823 >> YES. YEAH, YOU ALWAYS WORRY. THE TRUTH IS YOU DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH CONTROL WHEN -- WHEN 328 00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:11,195 HOLLYWOOD DEVELOPS YOUR WORK. >> WHAT IS YOUR ROLE ONCE ONE OF YOUR BOOKS GETS PUT INTO DEVELOPMENT? 329 00:37:11,262 --> 00:37:16,000 >> MAYBE A CERTAIN ACTOR WILL WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE PERSON THEY'RE PLAYING. >> ONE OF THE STARS WILL CALL 330 00:37:16,067 --> 00:37:21,405 YOU AND SAY, "TELL ME MORE"? >> YEAH. >> WHAT'S AN EXAMPLE? >> OH, I'LL -- I'LL RESPECT 331 00:37:21,472 --> 00:37:25,710 PRIVACY, BUT THE -- BUT, YOU KNOW, OCCASIONALLY, SOME PEOPLE WILL -- WILL REACH OUT TO YOU, BUT -- 332 00:37:25,776 --> 00:37:30,014 >> YOU DO NOT SEEM PARTICULARLY COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT -- >> -- THE HOLLYWOOD ANGLE TO THIS. 333 00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:34,852 >> YOUR POSTURE HAS CHANGED, YOU'RE -- >> NO, NO, YEAH, I DON'T LIKE IT. 334 00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:39,690 [ LAUGHTER ] I DON'T LIKE IT. I'D -- BECAUSE -- YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT WORLD, YOU 335 00:37:39,757 --> 00:37:45,096 KNOW. IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT WORLD. >> THIS IS PORTSMOUTH. >> GRANN FEELS MUCH MORE 336 00:37:45,162 --> 00:37:50,434 COMFORTABLE TRANSPORTING HIMSELF THREE CENTURIES BACK TO THIS WORLD. THE WAGER SET SAIL HERE IN THE 337 00:37:50,501 --> 00:37:55,306 BRITISH HARBOR TOWN OF PORTSMOUTH. THE ENTIRE EXPEDITION MAY HAVE FADED FROM MEMORY. 338 00:37:55,373 --> 00:37:59,577 BUT GRANN BEING GRANN, HE SAW REFERENCES EVERYWHERE. >> ANSON'S NAME IS STILL REMEMBERED AND ON THIS PUB. 339 00:37:59,644 --> 00:38:03,981 >> WE VISITED THE SHIP ANSON, A PUB NAMED FOR THE SQUADRON'S LEADER, GEORGE ANSON. HERE, MEN WERE ROUNDED UP BY THE 340 00:38:04,048 --> 00:38:08,819 BRITISH NAVY AND PRESSED INTO SERVICE ON THE WAGER'S DOOMED MISSION. >> YOU COULD BE DRINKING, YOU 341 00:38:08,886 --> 00:38:14,191 KNOW, HAVE -- HAVING A BEER ENJOYING YOURSELF. >> THE NEXT MINUTE, YOU KNOW -- >> YOU'RE BEING PUT ON A LITTLE 342 00:38:14,258 --> 00:38:19,063 BOAT THAT WAS LIKE A FLOATING JAIL. THEY WOULD TAKE YOU OUT TO THE SHIP. 343 00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:24,935 AND IT'S WHAT MADE CREATING UNITY AND COHESION ON THE -- ON THIS EXPEDITION PARTICULARLY CHALLENGING. 344 00:38:25,002 --> 00:38:30,875 >> A FEW HUNDRED YARDS FROM THE PUB, WE BOARDED THE HMS VICTORY, AN 18th CENTURY WARSHIP PRESERVED IN THE HARBOR, 345 00:38:30,941 --> 00:38:38,382 VIRTUALLY THE SAME MODEL OF SHIP AS THE WAGER, A THOUSAND TONS OF OAK AND ROPE, WHERE THE CREW ATE AND SLEPT NEXT TO CANNONS. 346 00:38:38,449 --> 00:38:43,254 >> AND AFTER IT WAS FIRED, YOU'D HAVE THIS HUGE FORCE FLYING BACK. AND YOU BETTER GET OUT OF THE 347 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,525 WAY. >> HAVING IMMERSED HIMSELF IN WHAT HE CALLS THE WOODEN WORLD, GRANN GOT TO THE POINT HE COULD 348 00:38:47,591 --> 00:38:51,862 RENDER A DESCRIPTION LIKE THIS. >> AT ONE POINT IT WAS SO WINDY AND THE GUSTS WERE SO STRONG THEY COPS FLY THEIR SALES. 349 00:38:51,929 --> 00:38:58,969 SO THE CAPTAIN ORDERS THE MEN TO CLIMB THE MAST AND TO USE THEIR BODIES AS THREADBARE SAILS. SO THEY ARE ON TOP OF THE MAST, 350 00:38:59,036 --> 00:39:09,880 AND TO USE THEIR BODIES AS THREADBARE SAILS. SOME OF THEM 100 FEET IN THE AIR, IN A TYPHOON. 351 00:39:09,947 --> 00:39:14,719 YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MASTS ARE GOING LIKE THIS. THEY'RE ALMOST TOUCHING THE WATER. 352 00:39:14,785 --> 00:39:19,023 AND THESE MEN ARE CLINGING LIKE SPIDERS. >> WOW. >> AS GRANN BREATHES FRESH LIFE 353 00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:23,828 INTO EVENTS FROM HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO, YOU ALMOST WONDER IF HE HAD CLIMBED THE MAST HIMSELF. HE'S THE FIRST TO ADMIT, YEAH, 354 00:39:23,894 --> 00:39:28,699 THAT WOULDN'T BE THE CASE. >> I AM NOT AN EXPLORER. LIKE, IF YOU COMPARE, I MEAN, WHEN I LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE, I 355 00:39:28,766 --> 00:39:35,706 MEAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DIE ON THE ISLAND. LET'S BE PERFECTLY HONEST. >> WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS OUT, 356 00:39:35,773 --> 00:39:40,010 WHAT'S THE -- WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF DEATH? >> OH, MY CAUSE OF DEATH, TERROR. 357 00:39:40,077 --> 00:39:44,815 [ LAUGHTER ] I WOULD HAVE TAKEN ONE LOOK AT THOSE SEAS AND BE, LIKE, "I'M OUT OF HERE, THIS IS NUTS." 358 00:39:44,882 --> 00:39:51,822 SO, YOU KNOW, I -- I WOULD NEVER HAVE ENDURED ANYTHING THAT THESE PEOPLE ENDURED. BUT MY OWN QUESTS DO SOMETIMES 359 00:39:51,889 --> 00:39:59,330 GET ME IN PLACES AND TO DO THINGS I OTHERWISE WOULD NEVER DO IN MY ORDINARY LIFE. YOU WOULD NEVER CATCH ME GOING 360 00:39:59,396 --> 00:40:05,803 TO WAGER ISLAND IN A LITTLE BOAT. >> ABOUT WAGER ISLAND, MAROONED AND STARVING, THE CASTAWAYS 361 00:40:05,870 --> 00:40:10,107 SPLIT INTO FACTIONS, INCLUDING A GROUP INTENT ON OVERTHROWING THE CAPTAIN. AN ACT OF MUTINY, PUNISHABLE BY 362 00:40:10,174 --> 00:40:18,182 DEATH. WHEN TWO GROUPS OF CASTAWAYS MADE IT HOME -- WE WON'T SPOIL HOW -- THEY HAD CONFLICTING 363 00:40:18,249 --> 00:40:26,791 ACCOUNTS OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED. >> YOU KNOW, IMAGINE THIS, THEY GET BACK TO ENGLAND. THEY HAVE SURVIVED SCURVY, 364 00:40:26,857 --> 00:40:33,230 MULTIPLE TYPHOONS, STARVATION, SHIPWRECK. AND NOW AFTER ALL THAT, THEY'RE SUMMONED TO FACE A COURT 365 00:40:33,297 --> 00:40:38,602 MARTIAL, AND THEY COULD BE HANGED. I MEAN, IT'S JUST KIND OF UNBELIEVABLE. 366 00:40:38,669 --> 00:40:44,008 >> UNBELIEVABLE. AND COMPLICATED. GRANN SOLVED THE PUZZLE OF STRUCTURING "THE WAGER" BY 367 00:40:44,074 --> 00:40:50,447 TELING THIS TALE ON THE HIGH SEAS FROM THREE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, ALLOWING READERS TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHERE 368 00:40:50,514 --> 00:40:56,353 THE TRUTH RESIDES. AND IF HE FIXATED ON THE PERFECT WAY TO LET THE BOOK UNFOLD -- DEVOTED TO HIS OWN QUEST AS HIS 369 00:40:56,420 --> 00:41:02,626 CHARACTERS ARE TO THEIRS -- THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT CLASSIC GRANN. >> WHAT IS YOUR OBSESSION WITH 370 00:41:02,693 --> 00:41:09,867 OBSESSION? >> YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS THOUGHT FOR A LOG TIME THAT MY FASCINATION WITH OBSESSED PEOPLE 371 00:41:09,934 --> 00:41:15,239 WAS BECAUSE THEY MADE THE BEST STORIES, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE AHABS OF THE WORLD, THERE'S A REASON WHY WE TELL 372 00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:21,679 AHAB STORIES, RIGHT? OVER TIME, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEGUN TO REALIZE THAT I MIGHT HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE IN COMMON WITH 373 00:41:21,745 --> 00:41:27,585 SOME OF THESE OBSESSIVES THAN I CARE TO ADMIT. >> YOU CALL IT YOUR FASCINATION WITH OBSESSION, SO, THEY'RE 374 00:41:27,651 --> 00:41:32,456 OBSESSED. YOU WERE MERELY FASCINATED. >> THAT'S WHAT I LIKE TO THINK, YES. 375 00:41:32,523 --> 00:41:38,362 I'M JUST MERELY [ LAUGHTER ] -- I AM COMPLETELY DISPASSIONATE. BUT, YOU KNOW THE TRUTH IS THAT 376 00:41:38,429 --> 00:41:46,237 I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REALLY BE A WRITER AND A RESEARCHER AND AN INVESTIGATOR UNLESS YOU ARE AT SOME LEVEL OBSESSED. 377 00:41:52,877 --> 00:41:58,148 AUTHOR DAVID GRANN ON HIS MOST FAMOUS WORKS. >> SO MUCH OF AMERICAN HISTORY IS SCATTERED ABOUT. 378 00:41:58,215 --> 00:42:01,085 >> 379 00:42:06,023 --> 00:42:24,775 >>> I'M JON WERTHEIM. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH ANOTHE EDI