>>> LITIGATION FUNDING IS A NEW TYPE OF INVESTMENT THAT'S BECOME A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. >> SO THESE ARE ALL LAWYERS?
>> INDEED THEY ARE. >> IN ESSENCE, INVESTORS BET ON THE OUTCOME OF LARGE LAWSUITS THE WAY TRADERS BET ON STOCKS.
HOW OFTEN ARE YOU RIGHT? >> WE'RE RIGHT ABOUT 90% OF THE TIME, AND WE'RE WRONG ABOUT 10% OF THE TIME.
>> THE PROBLEM IS THIS MARKET IS EXPLODING WITH NEARLY NO RULES OR OVERSIGHT. >>> IT'S ALMOST LIKE GOING INTO
THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME. THIS IS BIG FOR ME. >> THAT'S JERRY RICE, THE NFL'S GREATEST ALL-TIME WIDE RECEIVER,
TALKING ABOUT HAVING HIS FAMILY'S BACK STORY INCLUDED IN SOMETHING CALLED THE HISTORYMAKERS, AN EXPANSIVE
DIGITAL ARCHIVE OF FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNTS FROM A WHO'S WHO OF BLACK AMERICANS. CREATED BY A NONPARTISAN,
NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION, THERE ARE 3,500 INTERVIEWS SO FAR, NOW STORED AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.
>>> PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME. >> DO YOU LIKE BOOKS ABOUT ADVENTURE AND HEROISM? TRUE STORIES WITH UNBELIEVABLE
OUTCOMES? THE AUTHOR DAVID GRANN IS YOUR MAN. TODAY HE'S ONE OF THE WORLD'S
TOP-SELLING WRITERS, IN PART, BECAUSE OF HIS HANDS-ON, YEARS-LONG RESEARCH THAT BREATHES LIFE BACK INTO HIS
FEARLESS CHARACTERS. BUT GRANN IS THE FIRST TO ADMIT -- >> I AM NOT AN EXPLORER.
I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DIE ON THE ISLAND. LET'S BE PERFECTLY HONEST. >> WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF DEATH?
WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS OUT. >> TERROR? [ LAUGHTER ] >> I'M LESLEY STAHL.
>> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. >> I'M JON WERTHEIM.
>> I'M CECILIA VEGA. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES TONIGHT ON "60 MINUTES."
CAPTIONING FUNDED BY CBS
>>> EVER HEARD OF "LITIGATION FUNDING"? IT'S A RELATIVELY NEW, MULTIBILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY
WHERE INVESTORS FUND LAWSUITS. HERE'S THE IDEA: SAY SOMEONE WAS WRONGED BY A BIG CORPORATION BUT HAS NO MONEY TO SUE IT.
A LITIGATION FUNDER WILL PAY FOR THEIR COURT BATTLE. IN ESSENCE, THEY'RE BETTING ON THE LAWSUIT THE WAY TRADERS BET
ON STOCKS. IF IT'S SUCCESSFUL, THEY MAKE MONEY, SOMETIMES A LOT OF MONEY. IF IT FAILS, THE FUNDERS GET
NOTHING, THEIR INVESTMENT IS LOST. AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN DECEMBER, LITIGATION FUNDING CAN
HELP IN CASES WHERE OTHERWISE THE LITTLE GUY WHO'S SUING WOULD JUST GET CRUSHED OR LOWBALLED BY DEFENDANTS WITH DEEP POCKETS.
PROBLEM IS THIS MARKET IS EXPLODING WITH NEARLY NO RULES OR OVERSIGHT. >> THIS IS QUITE AN HONOR TO BE
ABLE TO DRIVE YEAR ROUND IN MY TRUCK. >> WE START OUR STORY IN THE ROLLING HILLS OF VENTURA COUNTY,
CALIFORNIA. >> THIS WAS ONE OF OUR FIELDS. >> THIS ONE, TOO? >> WHERE CRAIG UNDERWOOD'S
FAMILY FARM HAD BEEN GROWING JALAPENOS FOR THREE DECADES. >> SO YOU USED TO HAVE PEPPERS AS FAR AS THE EYE COULD SEE.
>> AS YOU WERE DRIVING THROUGH THE VALLEY, PEPPERS WERE EVERYPLACE. >> BUT I HEARD THAT YOU HAD ONE
CUSTOMER? >> ONE CUSTOMER, HUY FONG FOODS. >> HUY FONG MAKES THE WORLD-FAMOUS SRIRACHA HOT SAUCE.
IN 2016, THEY ABRUPTLY SEVERED TIES WITH UNDERWOOD. HIS BUSINESS DRIED UP OVERNIGHT. >> IS THERE ANYTHING GROWING
HERE AT ALL? CAN YOU TELL? >> THERE'S NOTHING PLANTED HERE. AND UP HERE, IT'S JUST WEEDS.
>> FACING RUIN, HE SUED HUY FONG FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT AND WON: $23 MILLION. >> BUT THEY APPEALED?
>> THEY APPEALED. >> YOU COULDN'T COLLECT ANY OF THE MONEY? >> NO.
WE WERE LOOKING AT WHETHER WE COULD SURVIVE OR NOT. EVERY WEEK WE WERE TRYING TO FIND ENOUGH CASH TO PAY THE
BILLS, MAKE SURE WE COULD MAKE PAYROLL. >> HE COULDN'T AFFORD TO KEEP FIGHTING, UNTIL HE HEARD OF AN
INVESTMENT FIRM THAT BACKS PEOPLE IN HIS SITUATION. >> WE MAKE THE PLAYING FIELD LEVEL.
AND THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE WANTING IN LITIGATION. >> CHRISTOPHER BOGART IS THE CEO OF BURFORD CAPITAL.
HE FUNDS LITIGANTS AND TAKES A CHUNK OF THEIR AWARD, IF THEY WIN. >> WE ARE A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR
COMPANY BECAUSE LITIGATION IS EXPENSIVE. AND THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF DEMAND FROM BUSINESSES FOR THIS
KIND OF SOLUTION. >> SO IS IT A LOAN? >> IT'S A NONRECOURSE FINANCING. >> WHAT DOES "NONRECOURSE"?
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? >> WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT IF THE CASE THAT WE'RE FINANCING DOESN'T SUCCEED, THEN WE DON'T
GET OUR MONEY BACK. AND SO IT'S DIFFERENT FROM A LOAN IN THE SENSE THAT A LOAN OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE ALWAYS HAVING
TO PAY BACK THE PRINCIPAL. >> IF YOUR SIDE LOSES, YOU GET NOTHING? >> THAT'S CORRECT.
>> STILL, CRAIG UNDERWOOD WAS TORN, BECAUSE IF HE WON THE APPEAL, BURFORD WOULD GET A BIG CHUNK.
BUT, SEEING NO OTHER CHOICE, HE TOOK $4 MILLION FROM THEM. SOON AFTER, HE WON THE APPEAL AND THE 23 MILLION.
BUT THEN HE HAD TO PAY HIS LAWYERS AND SQUARE AWAY WITH BURFORD. >> WE HAD TO GIVE THEM
$8 MILLION TO PAY FOR THE -- THE 4 THAT WE GOT AND THE 4 THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS THEIR...UM... >> DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU
REALIZED THEY WERE GOING TO CHARGE YOU 100% THAT THAT WAS PREDATORY? >> SOME PEOPLE MIGHT THINK THAT.
I DIDN'T FEEL THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY STEPPED IN AND HELPED US OUT WHEN WE COULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN MONEY FROM ANYBODY ELSE.
THEY BASICALLY RESCUED US. >> FOUNDED IN 2009, BURFORD IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST LITIGATION FUNDER, WITH $5 BILLION INVESTED
IN MULTIPLE LAWSUITS. >> IS IT ACTUALLY SAFER IN TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT TO INVEST IN LITIGATION THAN IN THE STOCK
MARKET? >> WELL, THE BENEFIT THAT YOU GET FROM LITIGATION IS THAT LITIGATION DOESN'T FLUCTUATE THE
SAME WAY THAT THE MARKETS DO. >> WHAT'S YOUR AVERAGE INVESTMENT? >> WHEN WE'RE FINANCING A SINGLE
PIECE OF LITIGATION, IT WOULD BE VERY RARE FOR US TO BE BELOW $5 MILLION. AND IT GOES UP FROM THERE.
>> LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A HUGE CASE WITH TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. WHAT KIND OF PERCENTAGE DO YOU
EXPECT TO WIN IN THE END? >> ON AN AVERAGE BASIS, WE'LL LARGELY DOUBLE OUR MONEY. >> ARE THERE CASES WHERE YOU
ACTUALLY WALKED AWAY WITH MORE MONEY THAN THE PLAINTIFF, THE PERSON WHO WAS WRONGED? >> SO THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY
OFTEN. >> BUT OCCASIONALLY -- >> IT CERTAINLY CAN HAPPEN. >> THERE'S NO LEGAL LIMIT ON HOW
BIG A CHUNK LITIGATION FUNDERS CAN TAKE, AND THE DEALS ARE CONFIDENTIAL. BOGART ARGUES THAT THE REASON
THEY DEMAND SO MUCH IS BECAUSE OF THE BIG RISKS THEY TAKE. BUT ACTUALLY THEY PICK THEIR CASES VERY CAREFULLY.
>> SO THESE ARE ALL LAWYERS? >> INDEED THEY ARE. >> AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING? >> THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY
VETTING POTENTIAL CASES THAT WE MIGHT FINANCE FOR CORPORATE CLIENTS. >> WE CERTAINLY DO DILIGENCE ON
THOSE MATTERS TO TRY TO CHOOSE ONES THAT ARE MERITORIOUS AND THAT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL. >> HOW OFTEN ARE YOU RIGHT?
>> WE'RE RIGHT ABOUT 90% OF THE TIME, AND WE'RE WRONG ABOUT 10% OF THE TIME. >> WHAT IF THE CLIENT THAT
YOU'VE GIVEN ALL THIS MONEY TO, INVESTED IN, WANTS TO SETTLE, AND YOU THINK THAT'S A MISTAKE? >> CLIENTS ARE FREE TO RUN THEIR
LITIGATIONS AS THEY SEE FIT. THEY'RE FREE TO WORK WITH THEIR LAWYERS AS THEY SEE FIT. AND WE DON'T INTERFERE WITH THAT
RELATIONSHIP. IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR THEM TO COME AND ASK FOR OUR ADVICE, BUT IT'S ADVICE.
AND THE CLIENT IS FREE TO DISREGARD THAT ADVICE AND TAKE ITS OWN PATH. >> BUT MAYA STEINITZ, A LAW
PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, SAYS THERE ARE ETHICS RULES FOR LAWYERS, BUT NOT FOR THESE INVESTORS.
>> THE FUNDERS ARE NOT REGULATED. THERE'S NOTHING PRECLUDING THEM LEGALLY FROM PRESSURING A CLIENT
TO SETTLE. THE RULES OF ETHICS ARE VERY CLEAR THAT THE LAWYER HAS TO ABIDE BY THE WISHES OF THE
CLIENT. BUT HUMAN NATURE IS HUMAN NATURE. THERE MAY BE AN INCLINATION TO
BE PULLED TOWARDS THE PERSON WHO IS PAYING. >> WHY IS IT IMPORTANT? WHY SHOULD SOMEONE OUT THERE
WHO'S NOT INVOLVED IN A LAWSUIT CARE? >> FOR MULTIPLE REASONS. FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS THIS NEW
INDUSTRY AND A NEW TYPE OF PLAYER, "LITIGATION FUNDERS," WHO ARE RESHAPING EVERY ASPECT OF THE LITIGATION PROCESS, WHICH
CASES GET BROUGHT, HOW LONG THEY ARE PURSUED, WHEN THEY ARE SETTLED. BUT ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING
WITHOUT TRANSPARENCY. SO WE HAVE ONE OF THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, THE JUDICIARY, THAT'S REALLY BEING
QUIETLY TRANSFORMED. AND THERE'S -- >> VERY LITTLE OVERSIGHT. >> VERY LITTLE OVERSIGHT.
>> WHO IS WORKING TO IMPOSE REGULATIONS, INSIST ON TRANSPARENCY IN THIS INDUSTRY? >> ONE ENTITY THAT'S BEEN VERY
VOCAL IS THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE THAT REPRESENTS BIG BUSINESSES BECAUSE THE SECTOR THAT'S MOST CONCERNED ABOUT THIS
IS BIG CORPORATIONS. NOW THERE'S MONEY TO SUE THEM, AND THERE'S MONEY TO PERSEVERE, AND NOT TO SETTLE EARLY AT A
DISCOUNT. >> BIG BUSINESS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE REGULATION? HOW INTERESTING, BECAUSE THEY
DON'T LIKE REGULATION. >> GENERALLY. >> EXCEPT WHEN IT HELPS THEM. >> GENERALLY.
>> BURFORD USUALLY FUNDS HUGE CASES, INVOLVING BIG, SOPHISTICATED CORPORATIONS. THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL OF
INVESTMENT FIRMS LIKE IT, WHOSE BUSINESS IS SOLELY INVESTING IN LITIGATION. BUT HEDGE FUNDS, FOREIGN
GOVERNMENT FUNDS, AND WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS ARE ALSO GETTING INTO THIS MARKET. BUT BECAUSE THERE ARE NO
REGULATIONS, IN MOST CASES, LITIGATION FUNDERS REMAIN ANONYMOUS IN COURT. >> IN 2012 A BILLIONAIRE, PETER
THIEL, SECRETLY FUNDED WRESTLER HULK HOGAN'S INVASION OF PRIVACY LAWSUIT AGAINST THE WEBSITE GAWKER THAT DROVE IT OUT OF
BUSINESS. THIEL HAD HIS OWN LONGSTANDING SCORE TO SETTLE WITH THE SITE. >> BUT LITIGATION FUNDING ISN'T
JUST FOR GIANT CASES WITH GAZILLIONS. >> "YOU CAN GET CASH AS SOON AS THE SAME DAY."
>> THESE ADS ARE FOR A WHOLE OTHER CATEGORY OF LITIGATION FUNDING COMPANIES THAT OFFER QUICK CASH.
>> "YOU CAN GET CASH IN AS LITTLE AS 24 HOURS." >> DIRECTLY TO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SUING IN SMALLER CASES,
USUALLY OVER PERSONAL INJURY ACCIDENTS. >> "FROM $500 TO..." >> THEY NEED THE MONEY TO PAY
THEIR HOUSEHOLD BILLS SO THEY CAN HOLD OUT FOR LARGER SETTLEMENTS. >> "THE BEAUTY OF PRE-SETTLEMENT
FUNDING IS THAT IF YOU LOSE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY BACK ANYTHING." >> "CALL NOW!"
>> BUT IN THE ADS, IT'S EASY TO MISS THAT IF YOU WIN, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO PAY A HEFTY SUM. >> THIS GROUP OF LITIGATION
FUNDERS CHARGES SO MUCH BECAUSE, AGAIN, THEY SAY THE RISK IS SO HIGH, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT THE APPLICANTS FOR THESE ADVANCES
ARE OFTEN BROKE, INJURED, OUT OF WORK, AND WITH NO ASSETS. BUT WE FOUND RATES RUNNING HIGH EVEN WHEN THERE'S SEEMINGLY
MINIMAL OR NO RISK. >> TAKE THE CASE OF FORMER NYPD OFFICER DONALD SEFCIK WHO WAS ENTITLED TO MONEY FROM THE 9/11
VICTIM'S COMPENSATION FUND. HE BECAME ILL AFTER HE RACED TO GROUND ZERO. >> AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY?
>> I STAYED THERE APPROXIMATELY NINE DAYS. >> INHALING ALL THAT - DUST. >> IT WAS SO MUCH DUST DOWN
THERE THAT YOU COULD NOT SEE YOUR HAND IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. >> SO OBVIOUSLY YOU HAD MEDICAL ISSUES.
>> YEAH. I COULDN'T RUN, I COULDN'T BREATHE. >> SO YOU WERE ENTITLED FROM
THAT VICTIMS' COMPENSATION FUND TO GET $90,000. >> YES, I WAS. >> YOU WERE TOLD YOU WOULD GET
$90,000. YOU GOT $10,000 UP FRONT. >> YES. >> HE KNEW HE WOULD EVENTUALLY
GET MORE. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, HE NEEDED MONEY FOR HIS MEDICAL CARE. SO AN AD IN THE PAPER CAUGHT HIS
EYE. >> IT SAID, "R&D LEGAL FUNDING CAN GET YOUR MONEY FASTER. WE CAN CUT THROUGH THE RED
TAPE." AND SO I CALLED RD LEGAL FUNDING, BUT THEN AFTER I SIGNED ALL THE DOCUMENTS AND SENT OVER
TO THEM, THEY CAME BACK AT AN INTEREST RATE THAT I COULDN'T EVEN FIGURE OUT. THE DOCUMENT WAS VERY CONFUSING.
I COULDN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND IT. >> I'M A LAWYER 40 YEARS, I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT. >> MICHAEL BARASCH IS SEFCIK'S
LAWYER. >> THEY LENT HIM $25,000. HE HAD TO REPAY $64,800. >> THAT'S 150%!
>> AND YOU PAID IT? DID YOU -- DID YOU -- >> I HAD NO CHOICE. NO -- I HAD NO CHOICE.
I PAID IT. OUT OF THE $90,000 I ENDED UP WITH ABOUT 30,000 OF IT. I FEEL TOTALLY JUST TAKEN
ADVANTAGE OF. >> THE ARGUMENT FROM THIS INDUSTRY IS THAT THEY TAKE A BIG RISK WHEN THEY INVEST THIS
MONEY. >> THIS IS NOT A CAR ACCIDENT CASE AGAINST A SMALL INSURANCE COMPANY.
THIS WAS THE 9/11 VICTIM COMPENSATION FUND CREATED BY CONGRESS AND BACKED BY THE U.S. TREASURY.
>> THE COMPANY TOLD US SEFCIK'S CONTRACT WAS CLEAR, BUT HIS CASE WAS PART OF A LAWSUIT AGAINST RD LEGAL BROUGHT BY THE NEW YORK
ATTORNEY GENERAL. IT SETTLED IN NOVEMBER, THE COMPANY DENIED WRONGDOING BUT HAD TO "PROVIDE OVER $600,000 IN
DEBT RELIEF TO HARMED CONSUMERS," "STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH RECIPIENTS OF 9/11 VICTIM COMPENSATION FUNDS" AND PAY A $1
PENALTY. >> SO HOW DO LITIGATION FUNDERS LIKE THIS GET AWAY WITH CHARGING SUCH EXORBITANT RATES?
IF YOU TAKE OUT, SAY, A CAR LOAN, USURY LAWS THAT PREVENT PREDATORY LENDING CAP THE INTEREST RATE...IN NEW YORK AT
16%. BUT, REMEMBER, THESE AREN'T LOANS PER SE. THEY'RE "INVESTMENTS."
LITIGATION FUNDERS -- FOR GIANT AND PERSONAL CASES -- ARGUE THAT THIS MARKET IS OFFERING A LIFE LINE TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOWHERE
ELSE TO TURN. AND LEGAL SCHOLARS, LIKE MAYA STEINITZ, AGREE. >> ACCESSING THE COURTS IN A
CIVIL PROCESS IS A LUXURY GOOD IN TODAY'S AMERICA. LAWYERS CHARGE HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS BY THE HOUR.
SO IF YOU HAVE BEEN INJURED, IF YOU HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, IF A CONTRACT THAT YOU HAVE ENTERED INTO HAS BEEN
BREACHED, IT'S SIMPLY TOO EXPENSIVE TO BRING YOUR CASE IN COURT. SO I THINK LITIGATION FUNDING IS
ESSENTIAL. HOWEVER, PERSONALLY I THINK THAT LITIGATION FUNDING SHOULD BE REGULATED, BUT I CERTAINLY DON'T
THINK IT SHOULD BE PROHIBITED.
>>> AT A TIME WHEN WE'RE HAVING A NATIONAL DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW BLACK HISTORY FITS INTO THE AMERICAN MOSAIC, WE DISCOVERED
THAT MANY STORIES OF BLACK ACHIEVEMENT ARE SLIPPING AWAY...GOING UNPRESERVED FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS.
A NONPARTISAN, NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION CALLED THE HISTORYMAKERS IS HOPING TO CHANGE THAT, BY CREATING AN
EXPANSIVE DIGITAL ARCHIVE OF FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNTS. AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN FEBRUARY, FOUNDER JULIEANNA
RICHARDSON TOLD US SHE'S DETERMINED TO DOCUMENT THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA, ONE STORY AT A TIME.
>> IN SOCIETY TODAY, WHAT IS BEING DEBATED? WHO HAS VALUE AND WHO DOESN'T? YOU PRESERVE WHAT HAS VALUE, YOU
THROW AWAY WHAT DOESN'T. THAT'S WHY THE PRESERVATION IS SO CRITICAL. JULIEANNA RICHARDSON HAS BEEN
PRESERVING BLACK AMERICAN STORIES FOR THE PAST TWO DECADES. ONE DAY, SHE'S INTERVIEWING THE
FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT OF RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, JONATHAN HOLLOWAY. >> WHAT THINGS DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT?
>> WELL, THE SORT OF THE DAILY RACISM MY SIBLINGS DEALT WITH. >> ANOTHER DAY, IT'S BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR ANITA HILL.
>> IN THREE COUNTIES, THE CENSUS TAKERS ACTUALLY BOTHERED TO LIST THE SLAVES BY NAME. AND THAT'S HOW I MET AND FOUND
OUT WHO MY GREAT, GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE. >> HILL, KNOWN FOR HER TESTIMONY AGAINST CLARENCE THOMAS, WASN'T
EASY TO GET. >> IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME COMING. I'M REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE.
>> WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO HAVE THESE FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNTS? >> HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO KNOW WHAT REALLY HAS HAPPENED IN
THE BLACK COMMUNITY IF YOU DON'T ALLOW THE COMMUNITY TO SPEAK FOR ITSELF? >> YOU'VE CALLED THESE AMERICA'S
MISSING STORIES. >> THEY ARE. THEY'RE AMERICA'S MISSING STORIES.
AND AMERICAN HISTORY WON'T BE COMPLETE WITHOUT THEM. >> RICHARDSON AND HER SMALL STAFF IN CHICAGO HAVE CREATED
THE COUNTRY'S LARGEST COLLECTION OF AFRICAN AMERICAN ORAL HISTORIES. THERE ARE MORE THAN 3,500
INTERVIEWS SO FAR. EACH ONE IS TRANSCRIBED, THEN POSTED ONLINE. IT'S A WHO'S WHO OF BLACK
AMERICA. THERE ARE LUMINARIES LIKE POET MAYA ANGELOU. >> I'M NOT SPEAKING TO BLACKS
AND BLACKS ALONE, OR TALL WOMEN, OR FAT, THIN, OR SH -- NO, I'M TALKING TO EVERYBODY. >> AND THERE ARE RISING STARS,
LIKE A YOUNG BARACK OBAMA. >> WHO WOULD YOU SAY HAS INFLUENCED YOU MOST IN YOUR LIFE?
>> RICHARDSON INTERVIEWED HIM WHEN HE WAS AN ILLINOIS STATE SENATOR. >> NOT JUST DR. KING OR MALCOLM
X, BUT BOB MOSES, AND FANNIE LOU HAMER, AND -- ROSA PARKS. >> THINK ABOUT THIS. THIS IS, LIKE, 2001.
BY 2008 HE'S PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. IT'S EXTRAORDINARY. EXTRAORDINARY IS A GOOD WAY TO
DESCRIBE THE BREADTH AND DEPTH OF THE COLLECTION. >> YOU WANT TO HEAR SOMETHING REAL CRAZY?
>> YES. >> NOT LONG BEFORE HE DIED, BASS-BARITONE WILLIAM WARFIELD GAVE AN IMPROMPTU PERFORMANCE IN
GERMAN WHILE RECOUNTING HIS VIENNA PERFORMANCE OF SHOWBOAT THAT BROUGHT DOWN THE HOUSE. >> EVERYBODY WHO SEES THIS IS
SORT OF ENTHRALLED. >> JULIEANNA RICHARDSON SAYS, AS A CHILD, ALL SHE KNEW OF BLACK HISTORY WAS THAT HER GREAT
GRANDFATHER HAD BEEN ENSLAVED. SHE GREW UP IN A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE OHIO TOWN AND TOLD US WHEN SHE WAS 9, SHE WAS THE ONLY
BLACK STUDENT IN HER CLASS. >> YOU HAD NOT BEEN TAUGHT ANYTHING ABOUT BLACK AMERICAN HISTORY IN SCHOOL.
>> NOTHING. BUT I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE. >> NO, I W -- I WASN'T EITHER. >> IT'S A COMMON STORY.
>> AS A SOPHOMORE AT BRANDEIS, SHE TRAVELED TO NEW YORK'S SCHOMBURG LIBRARY FOR A PROJECT ON THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE.
SHE HAD AN EPIPHANY WHILE LISTENING TO A SONG. ♪ I'M JUST WILD ABOUT HARRY ♪ >> SHE THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT
PRESIDENT HARRY TRUMAN. >> I LEARNED FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS SONG IS WRITTEN BY A BLACK SONGWRITING TEAM OF NOBLE
SISSLE AND EUBIE BLAKE IN THE 1921 PRODUCTION OF "SHUFFLE ALONG" ON BROADWAY. I MEAN, IT WAS, LIKE, "WHOA, AND
I'M LISTENING TO THE MUSIC. ♪ I'M JUST WILD ABOUT HARRY ♪ ♪ HARRY'S WILD ABOUT ME ♪ AND IT WAS LIKE IT OPENED THE
APPETITE. AND I'M READING, AND I'M STUDYING, AND I'M LISTENING, AND I'M HEARING -- I'M HEARING THESE
THINGS THAT I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF, FOR THE FIRST TIME. >> THE SPARK WAS LIT, BUT DIDN'T CATCH FIRE.
HER FATHER HAD WANTED HER TO BE A LAWYER. AFTER HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, SHE HAD A SUCCESSFUL CAREER AS A
CORPORATE LAWYER AND CABLE ENTREPRENEUR. BUT SHE WAS RESTLESS. >> I WAS IN MY MID-40s.
I DIDN'T HAVE CHILDREN. YOU GET TO A POINT IN YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU START ASKING, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS GOING TO BE YOUR
LEAVE-BEHIND? WHAT IS GOING TO BE YOUR LEGACY? AND I WANTED TO DO GOOD IN MY LIFE.
>> AS SHE MULLED HER FUTURE, SHE WENT TO A LEGAL CONFERENCE IN MEMPHIS AND HEARD THE REVEREND BILLY KYLES, WHO WAS ON THE
HOTEL BALCONY WITH DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. WHEN HE WAS ASSASSINATED. RICHARDSON REALIZED THERE WERE
LOTS OF IMPORTANT STORIES LIKE HIS. >> AT THAT MOMENT THE NAME, "HISTORYMAKERS," CAME TO ME.
AND I CAME BACK AND I WAS, LIKE, "I KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO DO. IT'S CALLED THE HISTORYMAKERS, AND IT'S GOING TO BE AN ARCHIVE
OF BLACK PEOPLE." >> IN THE BEGINNING, DID YOU HAVE A LOT OF ENCOURAGEMENT? >> WELL, MY FRIENDS DID AN
INTERVENTION. THEY LITERALLY DID AN INTERVENTION. >> WITH NO MONEY, NO FORMAL
TRAINING IN ORAL HISTORY OR PROFESSIONAL ARCHIVING, SHE LAUNCHED THE HISTORYMAKERS IN 1999.
AT FIRST IT WASN'T EASY TO GET PEOPLE TO SHARE THEIR INTIMATE STORIES WITH A STRANGER. BUT SHE CONVINCED A TUSKEGEE
AIRMAN, COLONEL BILL THOMPSON. >> WE WERE FLYING NOW WITH WHITE GUYS. >> HE SAYS, "HAVE YOU HEARD OF
THE GOLDEN THIRTEEN?" AND I SAID, "NO, COLONEL THOMPSON, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THE GOLDEN THIRTEEN."
AND HE SAID, "WELL, THEY WERE THE NAVY'S VERSION OF THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN." AND HE SAID, "FOUR ARE LEFT
LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, AND ONE LIVES UPSTAIRS. AND HE WANTS TO TALK TO YOU ALSO."
AND IT WAS JUST AT THAT POINT THAT I -- YOU KNOW, I KNEW WE WERE AT A POINT OF DISCOVERING. >> BY 2012, SHE HAD DISCOVERED
SO MUCH, THE ARCHIVE HAD GROWN SO VAST, THE COLLECTION SO SIGNIFICANT, THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AGREED TO BECOME ITS
PERMANENT REPOSITORY...ALONGSIDE THE ONLY OTHER PROJECT OF ITS MAGNITUDE, THE WPA SLAVE NARRATIVES, RECORDED DURING THE
GREAT DEPRESSION. >> I GO, "OH, MY GOD, THE STORIES OF THE FORMERLY ENSLAVED AND THE STORIES OF THE PROGENY
OF THE FORMERLY ENSLAVED ARE ALL TOGETHER." >> IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS -- >> IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.
DOESN'T GET BETTER THAN THAT. JULIEANNA RICHARDSON IS NOT ONE TO REST ON HER LAURELS. WHEN SHE'S NOT CONDUCTING
INTERVIEWS OR RESEARCHING NEW SUBJECTS, SHE'S EVEN WORKING ON ME - SHE'S FUNDRAISING. >> EVERY INTERVIEW COSTS US
$6,000 TO PROCESS. >> WHEN SHE REALIZED THE ARCHIVE NEEDED MORE ATHLETES, SHE PERSUADED THE NFL TO DONATE
HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF ITS OWN INTERVIEWS WITH BLACK PLAYERS. LAST YEAR, SHE LANDED HALL OF FAME WIDE RECEIVER JERRY RICE,
WHO COULDN'T BELIEVE HE GOT THE CALL. >> BECAUSE IT'S ALMOST JUST LIKE GOING INTO THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL
OF FAME. THIS IS BIG FOR ME. >> RICE SHOWED US THE 49ers MUSEUM IN THEIR HOME STADIUM.
>> SO WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE FOOTBALLS? >> WELL, THESE REPRESENT ALL MY TOUCHDOWNS.
>> ALL OF THIS? >> YEAH, ALL OF THIS RIGHT HERE. >> HE SCORED 208 TOUCHDOWNS OVER 20 SEASONS, STILL AN NFL RECORD.
HE PLAYED IN FOUR SUPER BOWLS, WON THREE, AND SNAGGED A SUPER BOWL MVP. BUT RICE SAID THE HISTORYMAKERS
WANTED TO KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT HIS UPBRINGING IN RURAL MISSISSIPPI. >> DID YOU HAVE PLUMBING, INDOOR PLUMBING?
>> NO, WE DIDN'T. IT WAS OUTDOOR. >> HE TOLD US POVERTY FUELED HIS DRIVE FOR SUCCESS.
>> WE WERE VERY POOR. VERY POOR. MY FATHER WAS A BRICKLAYER. AND HE WOULD TAKE ME TO WORK
WITH HIM DURING THE SUMMER. VERY DEMANDING WORK. I USED TO BE UP ON THIS SCAFFOLD THAT WAS PROBABLY ABOUT 20 FEET
IN THE AIR. AND MY BROTHERS DOWN BELOW, THEY WOULD TOSS THE BRICKS UP. AND I WOULD SNATCH THE BRICKS
OUT OF THE AIR. AND I ALWAYS PRIDED MYSELF ON, YOU KNOW, BEING THAT S -- REALLY STRONG LINK.
>> WHAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT YOUR STORY FOR ANYBODY WHO STARTS SEARCHING FOR YOU? >> WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION,
WHEN THEY SEE SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, WHO LOOKS LIKE THEM AND SAY, "HEY, LOOK, THAT GUY, HE MADE IT," THAT MIGHT BE THAT
LITTLE -- THAT LITTLE KICK, THAT LITTLE NUDGE TO MAKE THEM WORK A LITTLE BIT HARDER. >> JULIEANNA RICHARDSON BELIEVES
STORIES OF STRUGGLE AND SUCCESS ARE POWERFUL MOTIVATORS FOR ALL RACES, ESPECIALLY YOUNG MINDS. SO SHE'S CONVINCED MORE THAN 180
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO SUBSCRIBE TO HISTORYMAKERS. AND SHE RECENTLY ROLLED OUT A NEW CURRICULUM FOR SCHOOLS IN
NEW YORK, ATLANTA, CHICAGO, AND CHARLOTTE. >> DID YOU KNOW IMMEDIATELY THAT YOU WANTED TO USE IT IN THE
CLASSROOM? >> YES, I DID. >> LAST YEAR, WE VISITED TEACHER RACHEL DAVIS AND HER SOCIAL
STUDIES CLASS AT O.W. HUTH MIDDLE SCHOOL NEAR CHICAGO. THE STUDENT BODY IS LARGELY AFRICAN AMERICAN AND MANY HAD
LOST FAMILY MEMBERS IN THE PANDEMIC. >> SOMETIMES IN ONE HOUSEHOLD, IT WAS THREE OR FOUR.
A GRANDPARENT, AN AUNT, A COUSIN. AND THEN WE HAD STUDENTS WHO WERE STARTING TO HAVE A LOT OF
ANXIETY, DEPRESSION. >> DAVIS SAW THE PERFECT SALVE IN THE HISTORYMAKERS CURRICULUM "FROM LOSS TO THRIVING."
SHE HAD HER STUDENTS BROWSE THE ARCHIVES AND PICK HISTORYMAKERS WHO HAD OVERCOME ADVERSITY. >> WHO DID YOU END UP CHOOSING
FOR YOUR PROJECT? >> I CHOSE THE HONORABLE BLANCHE M. MANNING. SHE'S A UNITED STATES DISTRICT
COURT JUDGE. >> LENA WILLIAMS. SHE WAS A SPORTS REPORTER. >> RODNEY ADKINS.
HE'S PART OF THE IBM INDUSTRY. >> ANDRE SAMUEL, LOREN ROUNDS, AND TYLER RUSH TOLD US THEY FOUND THE RECORD OF BLACK
ACHIEVEMENT TO BE RICHER AND MORE DIVERSE THAN THEY HAD EVER IMAGINED OR BEEN TAUGHT. >> FROM MAYBE KINDERGARTEN TO
SIXTH GRADE, WE HEARD THE S -- MLK, ROSA PARKS -- >> YEAH. >> -- MALCOLM X.
>> EVERY SINGLE YEAR I WAS LIKE -- >> THE SAME PEOPLE. >> EVERY YEAR.
>> MADAME C.J. WALKER. THE SAME PEOPLE. >> HAS IT CHANGED NOW THAT YOU'VE MET SOME PEOPLE WHO MAY
NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE HISTORY BOOKS? >> IT'S A LOT EASIER TO ACTUALLY SEE WHAT WE WENT THROUGH AND HOW
WE PERSEVERED THROUGH IT, AND IT JUST SHOWS HOW STRONG WE ARE, REALLY. >> AND THINK ABOUT THIS.
WHAT IF I HAD HAD OUR ARCHIVES BACK WHEN I WAS 9? >> WHEN YOU WERE THAT 9-YEAR-OLD GIRL.
>> THINK ABOUT THAT. I MEAN, THERE WAS ACTUALLY BLACK HISTORY IN MY TOWN, JUST YARDS FROM WHERE I WAS.
THERE WAS A MAN NAMED SHACKLEFORD WHO SAT AT -- WITH HIS GUN POINT, DARING THE WHITE COMMUNITY TO TEAR DOWN HIS
SCHOOL FOR BLACK KIDS. THE FIFTH PRESIDENT OF LIBERIA WAS BORN IN NEWARK, OHIO, IN EIGHT --
>> IN YOUR HOMETOWN. >> -- IN MY HOMETOWN, IN 1815. I'M THINKING THERE'S NO BLACK HISTORY, BUT IT WAS ALL AROUND
ME. AND THAT'S WHAT THE KIDS -- IT'S ALL AROUND THEM, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW IT.
THEY DON'T TOUCH IT SO THEY CAN'T ASPIRE TO BE WHAT THEY DON'T REALLY SEE. >> BUT NOW BECAUSE OF YOUR
ARCHIVES, THEY CAN KNOW. >> THEY CAN. >> THAT'S GOT TO BE REWARDING. >> YES, IT IS.
BUT OUR WORK IS NOT DONE. >> JULIEANNA RICHARDSON IS NOW ON A MISSION TO COLLECT AND DIGITIZE THE PAPERS OF
HISTORYMAKERS -- THESE BELONGED TO ENTERTAINER EARTHA KITT -- AND SHE FOUND A WILLING PARTNER IN FORD FOUNDATION PRESIDENT
DARREN WALKER. >> THIS ORGANIZATION IS, INDEED, A NATIONAL TREASURE. AND YOU, JULIEANNA, ARE A
NATIONAL TREASURE. AND SO I'M VERY, VERY HAPPY TO MAKE THIS PLEDGE OF $1 MILLION TO YOUR GREAT WORK.
[ APPLAUSE ] >> I'VE WORKED 24/7 FOR 22 YEARS. AND I'M SURROUNDED BY THESE --
SUCH RICH STORIES. TILL I TAKE MY LAST BREATH, I MEAN, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE A PART OF ME.
AND THE LITTLE GIRL, I MEAN, I'M NOW -- A VERY RICHLY ENDOWED PERSON THAT NO ONE CAN TELL ME THAT ME AND MY PEOPLE DON'T HAVE
TREMENDOUS VALUE. NO ONE CAN TELL ME THAT, EVER.
>>> SOME AUTHORS ARE PERFECT MATCHES FOR THEIR SUBJECT MATTER: JOHN GRISHAM WAS ONCE A TRIAL LAWYER.
JOHN le CARRÉ WAS ONCE A SPY BY ANOTHER NAME. THEN, THERE'S DAVID GRANN, WHO HAS EMERGED AS ONE OF THE
WORLD'S TOP-SELLING WRITERS -- AND DARLING OF HOLLYWOOD DEVELOPERS -- BY VENTURING INTO UNKNOWN WORLDS, ABANDONING HIS
COMFORT ZONE. THE UNLIKELY ADVENTURES OF DAVID GRANN. HIS LATEST BOOK "THE WAGER,"
TELLS OF BRITISH CASTAWAYS FROM THE 1740s. IT'S AN OPEN-WATER QUEST THAT BECOMES A SAGA OF SHIPWRECK,
ANARCHY, BETRAYAL, AND MURDER. IMAGINE "MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY" MEETS "LORD OF THE FLIES" -- EXCEPT EVERY WORD OF IT REALLY
HAPPENED. AS WE FIRST TOLD YOU IN APRIL, GRANN'S SUCCESS COMES, YES, FROM METICULOUS REPORTING AND VIVID
WRITING, BUT ALSO FROM HOW HE PUTS THE PIECES TOGETHER. >> THE YOU TALK ABOUT STRUCTURING THESE STORIES AS A
PUZZLE. >> YES. >> IS THERE ONLY ONE WAY TO SOLVE THIS PUZZLE?
>> [ LAUGHTER ] WELL, I -- I'M VERY WEIRD ABOUT THIS. I DO ALWAYS THINK THERE IS SOME
KIND OF IDYLLIC FORM OF A STORY, LIKE, SOME, LIKE, PERFECT, PRISTINE, LOST CITY THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO FIND AND GET TO.
>> IF YOU WERE GOING TO STRUCTURE THE DAVID GRANN STORY, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST? WHERE WOULD WE START?
>> OH, GOSH, IN SOME ARCHIVE, LOOKING SEMI-BLIND AT SOME DOCUMENT. THAT'S WHERE IT ALWAYS BEGINS.
>> WE CAN WORK WITH THAT. WE FIND OUR SUBJECT INSIDE THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN THE SUBURBS OF LONDON, UNBOXING DUSTY FILES,
CONSULTING DOCUMENTS SO FRAIL, THEY REQUIRE A PILLOW FOR SUPPORT. GRANN SPENT TWO YEARS PLAYING
DETECTIVE, GATHERING FACTS, SOURCE MATERIAL FOR HIS LATEST BOOK. >> WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TOUCH
THIS REALLY CAREFULLY. >> HE TOOK US TUMBLING BACK IN TIME TO THE 18th CENTURY. >> YOU SEE THAT?
>> COMMUNING WITH LOGBOOKS, MUSTER BOOKS, AND DIARIES FROM THE EXPEDITION OF THE HMS WAGER, THE WARSHIP FEATURED IN HIS
BOOK. >> AND HERE YOU SEE THE LITTLE INITIALS NEXT TO THEIR NAMES HERE.
YOU'LL SEE LIEUTENANT. YOU'LL SEE "AB" MEANS ABLE SEAMAN. >> HOW ARE YOU DECIPHERING THIS?
>> WHEN I FIRST LOOKED AT A LOT OF THESE BOOKS, IT WAS LIKE READING GIBBERISH. [ LAUGHTER ]
I WAS LIKE, WHAT IS THIS TELLING ME? AND SO I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT IT AGAIN, LOOK AT IT AGAIN,
START TO FIGURE OUT THE CODES, THE LANGUAGE THEY USED. BUT ONCE YOU DO, THESE DOCUMENTS SPEAK VOLUMES.
>> ALL THESE NAMES AND SYMBOLS TOLD A LARGER STORY. WITH THEIR EMPIRES AT WAR, A BRITISH SQUADRON OF ROUGHLY
2,000 MEN SET OUT TO CAPTURE A SPANISH GALLEON FILLED WITH TREASURE OFF THE PHILIPPINES. THAT MEANT ROUNDING CAPE HORN,
NEGOTIATING SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST TREACHEROUS WATERS AND WINDS. BUT, ONE OF THE SHIPS IN THE
SQUADRON LOST ITS WAY JUST OFF THE COAST OF PATAGONIA. GRANN SHOWED US ON HIS OWN MAP WHERE THE WAGER GOT INTO
TROUBLE, A PLACE APTLY NAMED. >> THE GULF OF PAIN. >> THEY'RE BARRELLING INTO THE GULF OF PAIN.
AS THEY'RE COMING AROUND, THEY'RE DESPERATELY, FRANTICALLY TRYING TO AVOID THIS LAND. >> THE WAGER CAREENED INTO
ROCKS, RIPPING APART. 145 CASTAWAYS, MANY SICK FROM SCURVY, SWAM TO THE NEAREST ISLAND.
YOU'D THINK THE NAME ALONE -- THE GULF OF PAIN -- WOULD DISCOURAGE VISITORS, ESPECIALLY ONE BESPECTACLED 56-YEAR-OLD MAN
WHO ADMITS HE HATES CAMPING. >> I SPENT THE FIRST TWO YEARS DOING RESEARCH, IN A WAY VERY SUITED TO MY PHYSICAL
ATTRIBUTES. [ LAUGHTER ] -- WHICH IS IN ARCHIVES. >> YOU'RE INDOORS.
>> YES. [ LAUGHTER ] INDOORS. BUT THERE CAME A POINT WHERE I
BEGAN TO FEAR THAT I COULD NEVER FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE 150 OR SO MEN HAD GONE THROUGH ON THAT ISLAND UNLESS I WENT.
THERE'S ALWAYS A MOMENT WHERE SOMETHING GNAWS AT YOU, SOMETHING UNKNOWN. AND SO IT WAS THEN THAT I
DECIDED TO TRY TO MAKE THIS TRIP. >> SO IN 2019, GRANN FLEW TO CHILE AND CHARTERED A 52-FOOT
VESSEL... >> THE BOAT LOOKED -- YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED PRETTY BIG. I THOUGHT, THIS IS GOOD, THIS IS
GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE A JACQUE COUSTEAU EXPEDITION. WE'RE GOING TO BE FINE.
WE KIND OF STAY ORIGINALLY THROUGH THESE CHANNELS THAT ARE SHELTERED IN PATAGONIA. I THINK, IT'S PERFECT, IT'S
BEAUTIFUL, IT'S A LITTLE COLD, IT'S WINTER, BUT IT'S BEAUTIFUL. AND THEN THERE'S SORT OF A POINT WHERE THE CAPTAIN SAYS TO ME,
"ALL RIGHT NOW WE GOT TO GO INTO THE OPEN SEA IF WE'RE GOING TO GET TO WAGER ISLAND." AND THAT WAS MY FIRST GLIMPSE OF
THESE TERRIFYING SEAS. >> ROUGH SEAS. >> IT WAS TRULY TERRIFYING -- OR AT LEAST FOR ME.
[ LAUGHTER ] LET ME SAY, MY CAPTAIN SEEMED COOL. [ LAUGHTER ]
>> GRANN AND HIS CREW ENDURED THE MOODY WATERS OVER A TEN-DAY JOURNEY. >> I HAD TO SIT ON THE FLOOR
HUNKERED DOWN. THE DRAMAMINE WAS PUMPING IN ME. >> THIS IS WAGER ISLAND, NAMED FOR THE SHIP THAT WASHED UP 300
YEARS AGO. A SPIT OF INHOSPITABLE LAND, HUGGING THE PACIFIC COAST. SCENIC FROM A DISTANCE BUT YOU
WOULDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE NIGHT. THE CASTAWAYS DID MONTHS IN UNRELENTING COLD AND WHIPPING
WINDS. YOU KNOW IT'S BAD WHEN CELERY IS THE BIG SELLING POINT, THE ONLY EDIBLE THING THAT GROWS ON THE
ISLAND. THOUGH IT DOES CURE SCURVY. >> THERE WERE NO ANIMALS. I KEPT THINKING, "OH, THERE'S
GOT TO BE SOMETHING, LIKE SOMETHING, THERE'S GOT TO BE A RAT." BUT WE COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING.
>> THIS DEPTH OF DETAIL, IT'S GRANN'S EARMARK. HE'S CREATED HIS OWN SUBGENRE OF NARRATIVE NONFICTION, KEEPING
READERS HANGING WITH A PAGE-TURNING MIX OF HISTORY, JOURNALISM AND TRUE CRIME. BUT IT'S ALSO LITERARY
POINTILLISM. YOU STEP BACK AND GLIMPSE A LARGER TABLEAU - ONE WITH BROADER THEMES.
>> THIS FASCINATES YOU? >> OH, YEAH, YEAH. WELL, YOU SEE, I MEAN, ON THIS ISLAND YOU SEE EVERYTHING
PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE QUESTIONS OF LEADERSHIP PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE QUESTIONS OF LOYALTY
PLAYING OUT, QUESTIONS OF DUTY PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE HUMAN NATURE BEING PEELED BACK.
ALL THAT IS TAKING PLACE IN THIS LITTLE TEMPEST. >> AND THIS WAS NO ONE-OFF. FOR HIS FIRST BOOK, 2009'S "THE
LOST CITY OF Z," A NUMBER-ONE BESTSELLER TURNED INTO A FEATURE FILM... >> EVERYONE OUT OF THE BOAT.
>> GRANN TREKKED THROUGH THE AMAZON -- TO A PLACE KNOWN AS THE GREEN HELL -- FOLLOWING THE TRAIL OF A BRITISH EXPLORER,
PERCY FAWCETT. >> DID I HEAR RIGHT, YOU TOOK OUT SUPPLEMENTAL LIFE INSURANCE --
>> YES, I DID. I MADE SURE I GOT EXTRA TRAVEL INSURANCE. I HAD A LITTLE CHILD AT THE
TIME. THERE IS SOMETHING -- AND I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT, AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING I REALLY LIKE
TO TALK ABOUT -- BUT THERE IS SOMETHING SELFISH ABOUT THESE JOURNEYS AND EVEN SOMETHING ABOUT THE PEOPLE I WRITE ABOUT
BECAUSE MANY OF THEM DIE ON THESE EXPEDITIONS. >> GRANN'S SWASHBUCKLING TAKES ON AN ADDED DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY
ON ACCOUNT OF A DEGENERATIVE EYE CONDITION HE'S HAD SINCE HIS 20s. >> WHAT'S THE IMPACT OF THAT ON
YOUR WORK? >> I MEAN, IT'S TERRIBLE WHEN YOU'RE ON AN EXPEDITION LIKE, YOU'RE, LIKE, CAN'T SEE AT
NIGHT, AND YOU'RE STUMBLING, GETTING LOST, OR YOU'RE FALLING, OR YOU'RE ON A BOAT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT BUT BECAUSE I KNOW I
HAVE THIS WEAKNESS, I'M VERY ACUTELY OBSERVING AS MUCH AS I CAN. AND IN SOME WAYS, MAYBE PAYING
MORE OBSERVATION THAN IF I COULD JUST TAKE IT IN SO EASILY. >> GRANN FIRST PUT THOSE POWERS OF OBSERVATION TO WORK AS A
REPORTER ON CAPITOL HILL. BUT, TIRED OF WASHINGTON SPIN, HE WANTED TO WRITE REAL STORIES. IN 2003, HE JOINED "THE NEW
YORKER" MAGAZINE. IN ONE ISSUE, HE MIGHT WRITE ABOUT AN ECCENTRIC GIANT SQUID HUNTER IN NEW ZEALAND.
IN ANOTHER, A BOTCHED DEATH PENALTY CONVICTION IN TEXAS. ALL OF IT PREDICTED ON EXHAUSTIVE RESEARCH.
>> PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME. [ LAUGHTER ] >> FROM HIS OFFICE, ITSELF AN INHOSPITABLE LAND OF SORTS.
>> WOW. >> AT HIS HOME IN A SUBURB OF NEW YORK, GRANN SHOWED US A PILE OF RESEARCH FROM HIS 2017 BOOK
"KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON." THE BOOK CENTERED ON THE MYSTERIOUS DEATHS AMONG MEMBERS OF THE OIL-RICH OSAGE NATION IN
1920s OKLAHOMA. AND -- BOXED UP IN AN ARCHIVE, WHERE ELSE? -- GRANN FOUND A SMOKING GUN, EVIDENCE OF A
SYSTEMIC MURDER CAMPAIGN BY OUTSIDERS. >> THIS WAS SECRET GRAND JURY TESTIMONY.
AND -- AND IT WAS UNMARKED. I MEAN IT WAS A PUBLIC RECORD, BUT I WAS, LIKE, "IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE -- AM I ALLOWED
TO LOOK AT THIS?" [ LAUGHTER ] >> THE BOOK HAS SOLD NEARLY 2 MILLION COPIES, AND IT IGNITED A
HOLLYWOOD AUCTION. THE WINNING BID: $5 MILLION. THE FILM -- DIRECTED BY MARTIN SCORSESE, STARRING LEONARDO
DiCAPRIO -- PREMIERED AT CANNES THIS SPRING. PARAMOUNT, PARENT COMPANY OF CBS, IS A DISTRIBUTOR.
IT'S NOT LOST ON GRANN THAT STORIES BIRTHED IN DECIDEDLY UNGLAMOROUS ARCHIVES, END UP ON RED CARPETS IN THE FRENCH
RIVIERA. THE WAGER, ANOTHER BEST SELLER, HAS ALSO BEEN OPTIONED FOR FILM. IT WOULD BE GRANN'S SIXTH STORY
TO HIT THE BIG SCREEN. >> DO YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT HOLLYWOOD'S GOING TO DO TO YOUR WORK?
>> YES. YEAH, YOU ALWAYS WORRY. THE TRUTH IS YOU DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH CONTROL WHEN -- WHEN
HOLLYWOOD DEVELOPS YOUR WORK. >> WHAT IS YOUR ROLE ONCE ONE OF YOUR BOOKS GETS PUT INTO DEVELOPMENT?
>> MAYBE A CERTAIN ACTOR WILL WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE PERSON THEY'RE PLAYING. >> ONE OF THE STARS WILL CALL
YOU AND SAY, "TELL ME MORE"? >> YEAH. >> WHAT'S AN EXAMPLE? >> OH, I'LL -- I'LL RESPECT
PRIVACY, BUT THE -- BUT, YOU KNOW, OCCASIONALLY, SOME PEOPLE WILL -- WILL REACH OUT TO YOU, BUT --
>> YOU DO NOT SEEM PARTICULARLY COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT -- >> -- THE HOLLYWOOD ANGLE TO THIS.
>> YOUR POSTURE HAS CHANGED, YOU'RE -- >> NO, NO, YEAH, I DON'T LIKE IT.
[ LAUGHTER ] I DON'T LIKE IT. I'D -- BECAUSE -- YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT WORLD, YOU
KNOW. IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT WORLD. >> THIS IS PORTSMOUTH. >> GRANN FEELS MUCH MORE
COMFORTABLE TRANSPORTING HIMSELF THREE CENTURIES BACK TO THIS WORLD. THE WAGER SET SAIL HERE IN THE
BRITISH HARBOR TOWN OF PORTSMOUTH. THE ENTIRE EXPEDITION MAY HAVE FADED FROM MEMORY.
BUT GRANN BEING GRANN, HE SAW REFERENCES EVERYWHERE. >> ANSON'S NAME IS STILL REMEMBERED AND ON THIS PUB.
>> WE VISITED THE SHIP ANSON, A PUB NAMED FOR THE SQUADRON'S LEADER, GEORGE ANSON. HERE, MEN WERE ROUNDED UP BY THE
BRITISH NAVY AND PRESSED INTO SERVICE ON THE WAGER'S DOOMED MISSION. >> YOU COULD BE DRINKING, YOU
KNOW, HAVE -- HAVING A BEER ENJOYING YOURSELF. >> THE NEXT MINUTE, YOU KNOW -- >> YOU'RE BEING PUT ON A LITTLE
BOAT THAT WAS LIKE A FLOATING JAIL. THEY WOULD TAKE YOU OUT TO THE SHIP.
AND IT'S WHAT MADE CREATING UNITY AND COHESION ON THE -- ON THIS EXPEDITION PARTICULARLY CHALLENGING.
>> A FEW HUNDRED YARDS FROM THE PUB, WE BOARDED THE HMS VICTORY, AN 18th CENTURY WARSHIP PRESERVED IN THE HARBOR,
VIRTUALLY THE SAME MODEL OF SHIP AS THE WAGER, A THOUSAND TONS OF OAK AND ROPE, WHERE THE CREW ATE AND SLEPT NEXT TO CANNONS.
>> AND AFTER IT WAS FIRED, YOU'D HAVE THIS HUGE FORCE FLYING BACK. AND YOU BETTER GET OUT OF THE
WAY. >> HAVING IMMERSED HIMSELF IN WHAT HE CALLS THE WOODEN WORLD, GRANN GOT TO THE POINT HE COULD
RENDER A DESCRIPTION LIKE THIS. >> AT ONE POINT IT WAS SO WINDY AND THE GUSTS WERE SO STRONG THEY COPS FLY THEIR SALES.
SO THE CAPTAIN ORDERS THE MEN TO CLIMB THE MAST AND TO USE THEIR BODIES AS THREADBARE SAILS. SO THEY ARE ON TOP OF THE MAST,
AND TO USE THEIR BODIES AS THREADBARE SAILS. SOME OF THEM 100 FEET IN THE AIR, IN A TYPHOON.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MASTS ARE GOING LIKE THIS. THEY'RE ALMOST TOUCHING THE WATER.
AND THESE MEN ARE CLINGING LIKE SPIDERS. >> WOW. >> AS GRANN BREATHES FRESH LIFE
INTO EVENTS FROM HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO, YOU ALMOST WONDER IF HE HAD CLIMBED THE MAST HIMSELF. HE'S THE FIRST TO ADMIT, YEAH,
THAT WOULDN'T BE THE CASE. >> I AM NOT AN EXPLORER. LIKE, IF YOU COMPARE, I MEAN, WHEN I LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE, I
MEAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DIE ON THE ISLAND. LET'S BE PERFECTLY HONEST. >> WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS OUT,
WHAT'S THE -- WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF DEATH? >> OH, MY CAUSE OF DEATH, TERROR.
[ LAUGHTER ] I WOULD HAVE TAKEN ONE LOOK AT THOSE SEAS AND BE, LIKE, "I'M OUT OF HERE, THIS IS NUTS."
SO, YOU KNOW, I -- I WOULD NEVER HAVE ENDURED ANYTHING THAT THESE PEOPLE ENDURED. BUT MY OWN QUESTS DO SOMETIMES
GET ME IN PLACES AND TO DO THINGS I OTHERWISE WOULD NEVER DO IN MY ORDINARY LIFE. YOU WOULD NEVER CATCH ME GOING
TO WAGER ISLAND IN A LITTLE BOAT. >> ABOUT WAGER ISLAND, MAROONED AND STARVING, THE CASTAWAYS
SPLIT INTO FACTIONS, INCLUDING A GROUP INTENT ON OVERTHROWING THE CAPTAIN. AN ACT OF MUTINY, PUNISHABLE BY
DEATH. WHEN TWO GROUPS OF CASTAWAYS MADE IT HOME -- WE WON'T SPOIL HOW -- THEY HAD CONFLICTING
ACCOUNTS OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED. >> YOU KNOW, IMAGINE THIS, THEY GET BACK TO ENGLAND. THEY HAVE SURVIVED SCURVY,
MULTIPLE TYPHOONS, STARVATION, SHIPWRECK. AND NOW AFTER ALL THAT, THEY'RE SUMMONED TO FACE A COURT
MARTIAL, AND THEY COULD BE HANGED. I MEAN, IT'S JUST KIND OF UNBELIEVABLE.
>> UNBELIEVABLE. AND COMPLICATED. GRANN SOLVED THE PUZZLE OF STRUCTURING "THE WAGER" BY
TELING THIS TALE ON THE HIGH SEAS FROM THREE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, ALLOWING READERS TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHERE
THE TRUTH RESIDES. AND IF HE FIXATED ON THE PERFECT WAY TO LET THE BOOK UNFOLD -- DEVOTED TO HIS OWN QUEST AS HIS
CHARACTERS ARE TO THEIRS -- THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT CLASSIC GRANN. >> WHAT IS YOUR OBSESSION WITH
OBSESSION? >> YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS THOUGHT FOR A LOG TIME THAT MY FASCINATION WITH OBSESSED PEOPLE
WAS BECAUSE THEY MADE THE BEST STORIES, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE AHABS OF THE WORLD, THERE'S A REASON WHY WE TELL
AHAB STORIES, RIGHT? OVER TIME, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEGUN TO REALIZE THAT I MIGHT HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE IN COMMON WITH
SOME OF THESE OBSESSIVES THAN I CARE TO ADMIT. >> YOU CALL IT YOUR FASCINATION WITH OBSESSION, SO, THEY'RE
OBSESSED. YOU WERE MERELY FASCINATED. >> THAT'S WHAT I LIKE TO THINK, YES.
I'M JUST MERELY [ LAUGHTER ] -- I AM COMPLETELY DISPASSIONATE. BUT, YOU KNOW THE TRUTH IS THAT
I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REALLY BE A WRITER AND A RESEARCHER AND AN INVESTIGATOR UNLESS YOU ARE AT SOME LEVEL OBSESSED.
AUTHOR DAVID GRANN ON HIS MOST FAMOUS WORKS. >> SO MUCH OF AMERICAN HISTORY IS SCATTERED ABOUT.
>>
>>> I'M JON WERTHEIM. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH ANOTHE EDI