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Al Qur'an dusturuna, the Koran is our constitution.
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Wa jihad ou dari qouna, the jihad is our way.
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And to die, to seek death and martyrdom
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in the path of Allah is our highest ambition and our goal.
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[female narrator] Last summer, I met this man,
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one of the founding fathers of jihad in the UK.
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I fought on the battlefields of Afghanistan, Kashmir and Burma.
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I inspired and recruited.
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I trained, I raised funds, I sent people for training,
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I went and fought myself,
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and it wasn't just for a one off... 15 to 20 years.
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[narrator] His name is Abu Muntasir.
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He is one of the people most responsible for spreading
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jihadism throughout the Western world.
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[Muntasir] I used to carry
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three knives with me.
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One was a bayonet, it's designed in such a way,
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diamond shaped, so that the wound doesn't
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close so more bleeding.
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In my briefcase, in my car, a knuckle-duster, as well,
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a metal one.
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[narrator] I wanted to know why so many young people today
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are drawn to violent extremism,
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fighting and dying on battlefields far from home.
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In the last 18 months, I've travelled the UK,
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meeting men and women who had embraced extremism in the past,
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to try to understand why.
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I just had so much hate in me, I wanted to kill or be killed.
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When you're fighting in a battlefield,
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you do what you have to do.
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You've got to shoot him, you've got to chop him,
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you've got to take his head off.
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Do what you've got to do, you're in a battlefield.
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[narrator] I met a young man,
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who had been groomed by an extremist.
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So, all you think about is,
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"I need to go out and I need to fight."
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That's all you think about.
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If you achieve martyrdom then that's the best thing.
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[narrator] I met ordinary young Muslims,
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too, and heard how they feel.
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For all the harm that they've done to civilisations,
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to people, to communities, to countries, to states.
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My dream is to see the American empire fall.
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[narrator] I wanted to know,
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how can we save
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the next generation from extremism?
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I was called in at school and the teacher said to me,
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"Your child came up and said that it's OK for us to kill,
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you know, non-Muslims," and I thought, "Oh, my God.
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What is happening here?"
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[woman] My name is Deeyah Khan,
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I was born in the West, to parents from the East.
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Being a child of two cultures made me who I am.
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I am now a film-maker, and a human rights activist.
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Because of my work, I've faced threats
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from religious extremists.
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In the past, I had to leave my own home and my family.
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And some of my friends have been harmed
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and even killed by fundamentalists.
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I've been horrified to see young people,
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with backgrounds like mine, joining jihadi movements.
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So for this film, I decided to meet
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the men and women
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who had embraced extremism in the past,
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men and women of all ages and backgrounds,
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all living in Britain today.
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I wanted to know why they had been drawn into extremism.
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Only by understanding the reasons,
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can we begin to challenge this violent movement.
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What I learned, and what I filmed,
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surprised even me.
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It all started when I met Abu Muntasir.
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A British imam, he has a gentle manner and is softly spoken.
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He leads a small community of devout Muslims.
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He preaches around the country, he does charitable works.
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But in his past, Abu Muntasir
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was a jihadi fighter.
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A man who worked tirelessly to radicalise thousands
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of Western Muslims.
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I sat with one of the founding fathers
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of the Western Jihad and I listened.
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Thirty years ago, Abu Muntasir was a charismatic
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and fiery Islamic preacher, with a large following
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in the UK.
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[Khan] If you had to briefly describe
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the world view that you had at that time, what was it?
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The world is populated by Muslims and non-Muslims.
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That everything that constitutes disbelief,
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unbelief in their systems, in their education,
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in their way of life, all of it is dishonourable
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or defective or corrupt.
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[Khan] Alyas was one of his loyal followers.
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I found in Abu Muntasir an inspirational person.
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A role model that I had been looking for all my life.
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He was a strong male, with very strong ideas.
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[Khan] Usama was a bookish, shy teenager when he joined
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Abu Muntasir's group.
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He was my hero when it came to religion.
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You know, I totally looked up to him.
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He was our group leader. He had all the qualities.
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He was brave, he was educated, he was intelligent,
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he was articulate.
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We would all go, every week, to his circles in East London
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and actually became his groupies very quickly.
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They were offering something which, you know,
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I never had before.
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A family, understanding, belonging.
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This is where the journey starts.
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[Khan] Throughout the 1980s,
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Islamic fighters in Afghanistan
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were resisting the Russian invasion,
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calling it a holy war, a jihad.
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Young Muslims, like Abu Muntasir,
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became energised and ready to fight for the cause.
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I came out in the forefront and started to wake up
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the people saying,
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"What's the matter with you? Where is your spirit?"
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And, "How can you be so lazy?"
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And all this rhetoric and talk, you know,
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garnished and sprinkled with lots of emotive
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terms and words.
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[Muntasir] We will not tolerate attack upon the Muslims.
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It is our duty to conduct jihad.
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The kuffar have no honour.
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They are not the friends of Allah,
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they're friends of Shaytan.
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[Khan] After raising funds
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and preaching jihad throughout the UK,
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Abu Muntasir says he was among the first Muslims from Britain
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to actually go and fight in Afghanistan.
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I went to Peshawar in Pakistan.
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Took one friend with me from Kingston, a Punjabi brother.
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And that's my very first time when I went to Afghanistan,
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to clear and to create the link and clear the path,
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that's the expressions we used to use.
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And I came back, I think I was one of
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the first people from England to go.
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Came back, and opened the door.
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And then it started from a trickle to a flow.
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[Khan] On one trip, in 1990,
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Usama asked to come along.
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It was an exhilarating experience, I have to say,
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when you are 19 and you are essentially a bookworm like me,
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very academically minded.
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To be transported into the incredibly beautiful
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mountain of Afghanistan,
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in the middle of a war, was absolutely exhilarating.
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A real adventure.
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[Khan] Abu Muntasir's example
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spurred on many other Muslims across the West.
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Everyone had to imitate him.
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And there were many individuals who did,
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followed in his footsteps.
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He set the dye and then, as I said, it kind of spread.
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I bought weapons for myself and others.
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I arranged weapons drops, ammunition drops.
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I am also one of the key persons in the UK
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who brought in speakers from abroad
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who advocated armed jihad and they motivated others.
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[Khan] Munir was one of the many
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young British Muslims who had heard
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of his reputation.
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This man was famous, famous to the point
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he was infamous.
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Six foot seven giant of a man who can pick up ten guys,
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ten non-Muslims and toss them over a tank.
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I had to meet this Abu Muntasir,
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and I made it my kind of mission to track him down.
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[Khan] He found Abu Muntasir
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speaking in a mosque in London.
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He was calm and he was considered.
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I remember that really well.
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Dressed in black. All black with a black turban.
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I'd never seen anyone dress like that in the UK.
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Legendary father of the jihad. I was in awe of that look.
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I thought to myself, "This is what the warriors look like."
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What we felt was, as a group, we were unique.
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You know, there's no one like us.
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We had a uniform, you know, we had a dress code.
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I used to dress absolutely whack in those days.
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Really, if I look at the way I used to dress,
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I used to wear turbans like this, yeah.
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Massive turbans, you know, and with long flowing Arab gowns
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because it was a part of the rejection,
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as well of my mainstream western dress.
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[Khan] Alyas told me Abu Muntasir
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used unusual tricks while teaching his followers.
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OK, this is the trick.
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Uh, you are in a circle, everyone's there.
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He's doing the Islamic lecture. He's doing the Halaqa,
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it's a circle, yeah.
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And he'd get out some brown envelopes,
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and he would give it to certain people.
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And you're wishing, "Oh, I wish I get a brown envelope."
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We are in the brown envelope brigade.
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We are the brown envelopes. And then he would
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give someone a brown...
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He would give some envelopes and others no envelopes.
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And if you didn't get an envelope you felt like shit.
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[laughing] Honestly, you felt like absolute shit.
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Oh, fucking hell, I ain't got one of these envelopes.
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[laughing]
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And all these other guys have got these envelopes, yeah.
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"Oh, tell me what's in the envelope.
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What's in... what's in the envelope?"
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...we have the envelope, you haven't got the envelope.
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We are in the inner circle, you're in the outer circle.
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I feared not getting a brown envelope,
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you know, come on.
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This is silly stuff, isn't it?
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But what it is, this is cults, this is how cults operate.
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You know...
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[Khan] What was in it?
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Do you know what was in it?
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It was such a benign thing,
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it was just a photocopy of a book
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you could get anywhere anyway.
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It was just playing silly games with people.
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And you think about it, you give up the best years
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of your life.
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You know, I gave the best years of my life to... to them.
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[Khan] In the years to come,
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many hundreds of Westerners went to fight abroad,
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to the battlefields of Kashmir, Burma, Bosnia and Chechnya.
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Just like today, British fighters in balaclavas
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wielding machine guns gave triumphant interviews.
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I'm 21 years old.
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I'm a third year medical student in Birmingham University
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and I live in Golders Green. Every time I'm in Britain,
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I watch the TV and tears roll down my face
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when I see the Muslims in Bosnia,
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Muslims in Palestine, Muslims in Kashmir.
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And then I come here and you feel
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a sense of satisfaction.
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You feel that you're fulfilling your duty.
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If you want to see true people, true Muslims with unity,
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come to this place. Then you'll see.
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These people, Mujahideen, come from all over the world.
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They come to fight here, not for the money,
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-for the sake of Allah. -Allahu akbar!
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[Khan] Shahid was one man
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who heeded the call,
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spurred on by atrocity footage of the war in Bosnia.
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I came out of the Birmingham Central Masjid,
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there was a guy standing outside,
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he had a big brown box full of video cassettes.
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It was called "Massacres in Bosnia and Croatia."
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[Khan] The videos featured
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disturbing footage,
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similar to this Bosnian TV footage of
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a bloody massacre in Sarajevo.
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The video was very explicit.
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I mean, you know, it actually showed,
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pregnant women with their stomachs cut open.
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All kinds of stuff. I mean, it was shocking.
257
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,560
[Khan] Shahid says he travelled to
258
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,560
Bosnia in an aid convoy.
259
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,720
When you actually see, physically...
260
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,000
When you smell the stench of vomit and you hear
261
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,640
the screams and the cries and the children who are hungry,
262
00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:02,880
that's when something just clicked inside my heart
263
00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:02,880
and inside my head.
264
00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,640
And I thought to myself,
265
00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:07,680
"Well, you know, I haven't got any money to give you,
266
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,840
I haven't got any food to give you.
267
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,160
But there is one thing I can do. I can fight, I can defend you."
268
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,040
And that's when I made up my mind to stay and to,
269
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,680
basically, to defend these people.
270
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,440
[Khan] Shahid was later convicted
271
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,920
of terrorism in Yemen, although he says he was
272
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,960
tortured into a false confession.
273
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,000
He says he doesn't support ISIS.
274
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,360
For him, fighting in Bosnia was a noble act
275
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,440
to help other Muslims, a distinction also made
276
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,440
by other former fighters.
277
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,840
It's our ambition. It's part of our deen.
278
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,360
We want an Islamic state. We want sharia to prevail.
279
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,480
We want everyone to live in peace.
280
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,920
When you're fighting in a battlefield,
281
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,040
they're in front of you and you fight,
282
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,040
that's a different story.
283
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,320
Then there's... then it's kill or be killed.
284
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,200
Let's not mince words, he's coming for you,
285
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,200
you're going for them.
286
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,720
You know what I mean, you do what you have to do.
287
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,680
You got to shoot him, you gotta chop him,
288
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,120
you gotta take his head off. Do what you gotta do,
289
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,000
you're in a battlefield. You're fighting.
290
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:06,120
But when, once you've subdued your enemy,
291
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:06,120
he's now at your mercy.
292
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,160
He's got no weapon. His head is down,
293
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,160
his hands are bound.
294
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,160
That's when the true character of a mujahid comes out,
295
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,720
because that's when you show compassion.
296
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,440
[Khan] Growing up in London, Munir, too,
297
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,680
says he became immersed in the message of extremism.
298
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,440
My story, when I look back on it,
299
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,280
and my journey as a young man...
300
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,280
I just had so much hate in me.
301
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,840
Raging inside me was hatred, by that age, was anger,
302
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,840
was disaffection.
303
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,920
I wanted to vent that so badly. I wanted to kill or be killed.
304
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,720
So my wishes at the time...
305
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,440
were that I died on the field of battle.
306
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,960
And I killed as many non-believers as I could
307
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,120
who opposed me on that field.
308
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,040
I'd have liked to have been on the streets of Afghanistan.
309
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,920
I'd like to have dealt with Russian soldiers.
310
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,880
I wanted to look the enemy in the eye.
311
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,720
I wanted to meet them on the field of battle.
312
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,640
[Khan] Looking back now,
313
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:08,640
what has been the impact
314
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:11,400
of Abu Muntasir on where we are today?
315
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,840
If we go back into the '80s and '90s
316
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,840
there were viruses,
317
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,440
these were viruses you could say,
318
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,440
infected the Muslim community.
319
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,880
One of them was the virus that might is right.
320
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,880
That the only way you could achieve change
321
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,880
is through violence.
322
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,440
That virus, you know, was already there.
323
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,000
We carried that virus further and then we kind of,
324
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,120
you could say, infected a generation
325
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,120
with that particular virus.
326
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,480
It wasn't that this was a good thing to do.
327
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,240
This is the best to do.
328
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,200
This is the most noble thing to do.
329
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,360
Everything that you're doing should be culminating in that.
330
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,400
[Khan] What's the culmination?
331
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,920
Jihad and to die as a martyr.
332
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,600
[Khan] That was his message?
333
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,680
Ultimately, that was the message, yeah.
334
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,080
[Khan] It was a message
335
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,400
spread throughout the world,
336
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,720
by extremist clerics.
337
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,960
Speakers like Anwar Al-Awlaki,
338
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,920
who was given a stage to speak in Britain by Abu Muntasir,
339
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,680
and went on to be a notorious jihadi preacher.
340
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,520
We are fighting for a noble cause.
341
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:08,800
We are fighting for God.
342
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,200
Jihad is binding upon myself,
343
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,640
just as it is binding on every other able Muslim.
344
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:16,240
[Khan] In the past few years,
345
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,080
the infection has spread faster and faster.
346
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:20,840
We love death the way you love life.
347
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,320
As you kill us, you will be killed.
348
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:23,920
And as you bomb us, you will be bombed.
349
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,280
Fighting the enemies of Allah,
350
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,040
you see no one who does it like us.
351
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,000
It's you that need jihad. We just want to meet our lord.
352
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,440
Ask yourselves, why would thousands of men
353
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,680
be ready to give their lives for the cause of Muslims?
354
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,640
[Khan] I'd seen how jihadism
355
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,640
had started in the West,
356
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,320
but now I wanted to know, why do some people
357
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,320
embrace this message?
358
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,800
I asked Alyas, was there something in his past,
359
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,080
in his own personal history, which could explain why
360
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,080
he was drawn to extremism?
361
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,640
In South London, I grew up in a white,
362
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,640
working class community.
363
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,680
I had no interest in Islam whatsoever.
364
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,640
I hated being brown, I hated being Pakistani,
365
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,000
I hated being Muslim.
366
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,120
[Khan] Why did you hate being brown?
367
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,760
Because I grew up in an environment where there was
368
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,760
non-stop racism,
369
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,840
brown people were seen as lesser,
370
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,840
second class.
371
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,640
You know, it was just that inferiority complex
372
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,640
that you have.
373
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,080
There was nothing to celebrate about
374
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,080
who you were.
375
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,000
Especially in an environment where everyone else is white.
376
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,000
You want to fit in, you know. And you fit in how?
377
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,920
By being just like everyone else but more so, over compensating,
378
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,920
over exaggerating.
379
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,560
I had my white girlfriends, and then middle class parents
380
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,560
saying,
381
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,400
"Oh, but you'll have mongrel children."
382
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,480
These were middle class, so called middle class,
383
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,240
educated parents who were doing this.
384
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,120
I've done everything to fit in.
385
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,520
I've even got the white girlfriend
386
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,520
and everything else
387
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,920
and still you're not accepted, bizarrely.
388
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,960
Still you're not accepted.
389
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,680
[Khan] Munir is another man
390
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,680
who was marked by his past.
391
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,760
I had serious issues coming to terms
392
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,760
with the way I looked.
393
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,720
The physical impairment from birth.
394
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,800
I grew up feeling emasculated anyway
395
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,800
because of my disability.
396
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,440
And I'd walk home from school as a six-year-old on my own
397
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,800
and sometimes be heckled and sometimes chased
398
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,800
and threatened.
399
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,880
I'd have things thrown at me.
400
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,000
P-A-K-I
401
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,360
G-O H-O-M-E
402
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,440
I heard that religiously,
403
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,280
like the five times call to prayer,
404
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,000
for the first 16 years of my life.
405
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,040
I felt so shunned by everybody.
406
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,240
I felt so alone, so isolated.
407
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,920
I just felt like death would have been a really good option.
408
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,640
I didn't have a passion for life.
409
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,240
Martyrdom, the notion of the shaheed, the mujahid,
410
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:47,160
they became inspiring, they very much became enabling.
411
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,640
I think, for me, I was unmistakably drawn to it.
412
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,040
[Khan] Munir says he was never
413
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,240
a core member of an extremist group,
414
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,080
but became sucked into the mentality
415
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,720
by listening to their preachers.
416
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,440
He was further radicalised
417
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,680
by images of wars against Muslims
418
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,640
and the deaths of innocent Muslim civilians abroad.
419
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,760
When people are able to relay to you powerful stories
420
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,400
of suffering and oppression from around the world,
421
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,200
and they can use one common binding theme that these people
422
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,200
are Muslims who are suffering,
423
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,760
then I realised, "I feel exactly like those people.
424
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,800
I feel as abused as they do. I feel as helpless as they do."
425
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,800
And you just transfer that angst,
426
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,720
you just transfer that sense of grievance.
427
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,600
For someone like me, who didn't even know
428
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,600
where I fit in,
429
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,440
fighting for the path of Allah
430
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,800
was almost a transcendental emotion.
431
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,640
[Khan] I'd heard from his followers,
432
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,640
but what about Abu Muntasir himself, the leader?
433
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,640
What was his story before he became a jihadi warrior?
434
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,600
I went back to him and asked him about
435
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,600
his childhood in Bangladesh,
436
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,640
before his family moved to Britain.
437
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,720
I was born in '59, the first war with India
438
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,720
happened in 1965.
439
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,200
So I was five or six years old.
440
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,000
And I remember when I was eight,
441
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,880
taking a vow, to kill a Hindu.
442
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,680
Any random Hindu.
443
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,480
Even just to go out in the streets and randomly stab.
444
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,680
Just because someone is a Hindu.
445
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,800
Then the '71 war happened with Pakistan,
446
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,800
to liberate Bangladesh,
447
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:20,440
which was very graphic in terms of the atrocities committed.
448
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,560
I saw dogs eating dead bodies.
449
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,240
People walking around with bullet wounds crying for help.
450
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,040
My neighbour upstairs and downstairs were taken away
451
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,360
and shot and they were pleading us, "Oh, please help us.
452
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,440
When I was about 11 or 12 years old, that's when
453
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,440
my elder brother was murdered.
454
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,880
So that very much affected me because I was very close to him.
455
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:43,520
So I lost 22 of my relatives. And I hear horror stories
456
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:43,520
about them.
457
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,720
And although that was 30, 40 years ago,
458
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,720
it affects me more now
459
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,600
because I can visualise, imagine.
460
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,200
A dozen of them were taken out of their houses
461
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,200
and their throats were slit.
462
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,680
[Khan] I was beginning to hear
463
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,680
the deeper reasons
464
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,320
why some people might be susceptible to extremism.
465
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,560
But I also wanted to talk to ordinary young Muslims.
466
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,000
I wanted to hear their perspectives.
467
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,200
Alyas offered to help me out.
468
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,440
He told me he's now renounced the extremism
469
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,440
of his younger years.
470
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,520
He's now an imam in Bradford, and he works with
471
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,520
young Muslims.
472
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:24,960
He introduced me to some of them.
473
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,320
I wanted to hear what they had to say.
474
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:30,600
And to hopefully build more understanding between people,
475
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,960
so that they can hate and fear each other less.
476
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,360
I've been trying to get young people across the UK
477
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,360
to talk about this issue.
478
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,800
And talk about the impact of the War on Terror on them.
479
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,680
Zekarias, I know you've got a lot to say on this.
480
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,640
There is one emotion that comes out of it
481
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,640
and that is anger.
482
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,240
We all are angry, we all are angry about the fact
483
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,240
that we are being victimised,
484
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,840
that we are being stopped and searched at airports,
485
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,200
and being forced to give in our DNA
486
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,920
simply because we walk in with a thobe and a beard.
487
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,720
Or that we are being stopped and searched in the street for
488
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,720
being black or wearing a hoodie.
489
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,360
You attack people who behead soldiers
490
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,360
on the streets of London,
491
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,400
but yet you don't talk about US soldiers or UK soldiers
492
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,440
who go into villages and murder innocent people by the hundreds
493
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,440
and by the thousands.
494
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,840
-So... -[Khan] Who is you?
495
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,760
The UK government and citizens of the UK,
496
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,760
regular citizens of the UK.
497
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,880
Citizens, just normal citizens. And the media.
498
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,280
[Khan] So how does that make Muslims feel,
499
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,280
especially young Muslims feel?
500
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,880
Isolated, alienated, and angry.
501
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,600
It could convert into something positive,
502
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,600
which would be activism,
503
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,920
which would be campaigning to make sure the government
504
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,920
is held responsible
505
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,680
for, you know, certain policy measures
506
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,480
where they incriminate Muslim people,
507
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,160
young Muslim people, particularly.
508
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,080
Or it can be converted into negative areas.
509
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,080
And that's where you have groups.
510
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,000
-[Alyas] Extremism, violence. -Exactly.
511
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,240
[Khan] Zekarias is now a student
512
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,240
anti-racist campaigner.
513
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,320
I asked him about his childhood.
514
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,240
I was raised around Harrow in North London.
515
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,760
And back then it wasn't gentrified.
516
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,680
So there was a lot of white folks living there,
517
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,720
working class white people and very racist.
518
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,280
We used to be called niggers,
519
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,240
we used to be called coons, blackies, you name it.
520
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,040
I became aware of my race,
521
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,600
aware of my ethnicity at the age of five.
522
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,680
I knew what it felt to be ashamed
523
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,680
of the thickness of my nose,
524
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,120
or my lips, or the darkness of my skin,
525
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,120
or the texture of my hair.
526
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,760
I knew exactly what it felt to be like that.
527
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,760
[Khan] What's your dream?
528
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,040
My dream is to see the American empire fall.
529
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,480
And... I mean that, I genuinely mean that,
530
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,240
for all the harm that they've done.
531
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,320
To civilisations, to people, to communities,
532
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:43,200
to countries, to states.
533
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,480
[Khan] And dreams for your own life?
534
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,160
-My own life? -[Khan] Yes.
535
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,760
[mumbles]
536
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,360
I don't really know.
537
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,400
[Khan] Be happy?
538
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,040
Yeah, I guess, I guess everyone
539
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,040
wants happiness, I guess.
540
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,120
I'm a pessimist... I don't really
541
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,120
look at things optimistically,
542
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,080
so... but... or a realist, whatever.
543
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,960
But I don't know, don't know, can't say.
544
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,200
I think the biggest discussions I have with people
545
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,400
really is about them finding out who they are.
546
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,800
It's hard being young, it's even harder being young and Muslim.
547
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,240
It's harder being young and Muslim and being alone,
548
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,160
and it's even harder being young, Muslim and alone
549
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,160
in the War on Terror.
550
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,640
It's harder for you to get the same job
551
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,640
as your white counterpart, even if you're a graduate.
552
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,200
You're living in poorer areas, you're more likely
553
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,200
to be unemployed,
554
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,360
you are more likely to be stopped and searched
555
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,360
by the police.
556
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,800
No matter what you try to do to fit in,
557
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,800
to be a part of society,
558
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,120
you are always being othered and seen as an outsider.
559
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,160
And that is really deeply unsettling.
560
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,240
[Khan] In Birmingham, I was introduced
561
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,240
to Sabeel and Waseem.
562
00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,960
Now you know what, I always say when I'm in England I'm a Paki.
563
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,360
That's what I get called. I'm in England
564
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,360
I get called a Paki.
565
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,160
And when I go to Pakistan, they're like,
566
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,160
"Oh, you're British."
567
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,600
They're calling me British.
568
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,680
So I really feel like I belong on an airplane,
569
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,000
just somewhere in between.
570
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,840
Just hovering, that's where I belong,
571
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,040
like, that's the middle ground. Because I feel like
572
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:17,480
I'm not going to have the chance
573
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:18,800
to have certain jobs and that,
574
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,560
you're just programmed to think, like,
575
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,560
you know, you're not good enough to have that certain job,
576
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,920
or that type of job is for that type of person.
577
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,640
You know, if I was younger and I says,
578
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,920
"I want to be a politician, or whatever,"
579
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,640
they would have laughed at me, they says,
580
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,240
"Come on, bruv. You're a Paki from Balsall Heath,
581
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,400
you can't... that's not for you," you know.
582
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,400
Why couldn't I be?
583
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,320
Why couldn't I be the prime minister
584
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,320
if I wanted to?
585
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:42,080
What, because I'm from Balsall Heath,
586
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,240
you can't have a prime minister that's from Balsall Heath?
587
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,760
But, automatically, even we feel like that.
588
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,560
Even we think like that. If one of my friends
589
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,560
wanted to do the same thing,
590
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,160
me having that programmed into my mind all that time
591
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,640
I'd probably say the same thing to him.
592
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,400
"Come on bruv, don't be silly.
593
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,280
You're gonna own a corner shop, and you're gonna drive a taxi."
594
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,880
You know, that's the stereotypical thing
595
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:01,600
what, you know, people are made to believe.
596
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,480
That's what we're going to do, that's just what we do.
597
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,320
You're told what to dream about, you know.
598
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,000
You're told that this is what you can achieve.
599
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,600
You being what you are, the religion you are,
600
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,040
the skin colour you are and from the area you are,
601
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,040
this is your limit.
602
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,040
The sky's not the limit for you.
603
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,440
[Khan] While I was filming,
604
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,440
a long-running terrorism case
605
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,640
was taking place at the Old Bailey in London.
606
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,960
Two brothers from Bradford had already pleaded guilty
607
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,000
to downloading jihadi manuals from the internet.
608
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,440
The prosecution also said they'd conspired to attend
609
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,440
a terrorist training camp,
610
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,560
but the jury failed to reach a verdict.
611
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,160
Now, they were waiting to see if they faced a retrial.
612
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,400
The court had been told the brothers had been
613
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,400
radicalised by their cousin,
614
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,760
Muhammed Shafaraz Ahmed, who is now
615
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,760
a convicted terrorist. So, we're hoping the judge
616
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,120
will concede with our argument
617
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,520
and will dismiss the matter today.
618
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,520
[woman] And do you feel hopeful? Do you feel that that's likely?
619
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,760
We are hopeful, because these are young lads
620
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,000
who are being groomed, in essence,
621
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,320
and the prosecution case concedes the fact
622
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,560
that they are being groomed by their cousin,
623
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,480
who is a convicted terrorist, who's facing 16 years
624
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,480
of a prison sentence.
625
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,920
[Khan] One of the brothers, Saeed,
626
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,920
agreed to talk to me.
627
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,240
He told me, despite the charge he was facing,
628
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,920
he never had any intention of going to join
629
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,920
a training camp abroad.
630
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,720
But he said his cousin had tried to radicalise him.
631
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,960
He said he had watched videos of extremist preachers,
632
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,960
like Anwar Al Awlaki,
633
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,360
intended to have a strong emotional impact
634
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,680
on vulnerable young people like him.
635
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,080
It puts that image inside you,
636
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,760
that these are the true warriors.
637
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,160
When I was feeling emotion just watching these videos,
638
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,360
you watch the Taliban and Al Qaeda,
639
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,360
you watch these sort of videos,
640
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,480
and you'll think you'll have some sympathy for them,
641
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,080
thinking that, look, these... they know how to fight,
642
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,360
they are representing Islam. That's how you feel,
643
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,120
but obviously later on, you start understanding
644
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,000
that look, this is not how it is supposed to be.
645
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,800
[Khan] Is it heroic?
646
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,400
That's how it makes you feel, yeah, you feel like a hero.
647
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,720
[Khan] What was your life like at the time?
648
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,840
It was just boring. I didn't really go out, no.
649
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,920
I never actually used to go out, play football.
650
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,160
I wasn't that type of person, I used to just be at home.
651
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,440
[Khan] Why is that?
652
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,160
That's the upbringing that I've had.
653
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,640
[Khan] Did you feel like a hero
654
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,320
in your life before that?
655
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:29,480
Uh, no, I didn't feel like I really achieved anything.
656
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,960
Going out and fighting felt like,
657
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,760
that's the best achievement to do.
658
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,200
Like, if you achieve martyrdom, then that's the best thing.
659
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,200
[Khan] Was your cousin nice to you?
660
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,560
Yeah, he was really nice to me.
661
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,560
Being with him, and going out with him,
662
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,600
it felt like... it was a different feeling,
663
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,600
or something that we've never done before.
664
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,720
[Khan] If you could be anything
665
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,720
in the world what would you do?
666
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,720
Um...
667
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,120
I don't really know.
668
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,000
[Khan] Alyas spends a lot of time
669
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,000
mentoring young Muslim men, many of whom have difficult
670
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,240
relationships at home.
671
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,880
I know from my own life,
672
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,400
that many South Asian families can be controlling.
673
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Young people must obey their parents.
674
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,880
The fear of bringing shame on the family
675
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,720
can set unbearable limits on your dreams
676
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,720
and your choices.
677
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,120
Who you can marry, what you can study
678
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,680
and even what you can aspire to be in life.
679
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,480
In the South Asian context, you know,
680
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,000
there are lots of expectations, and this is the biggest one.
681
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,440
You cannot dishonour the family, you can't make them
682
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,440
ashamed of you.
683
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,760
And this creates loads of expectations
684
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,760
on young people
685
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,720
that they feel that they cannot meet.
686
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,600
They cannot achieve those expectations.
687
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,920
So often, they lead a double life.
688
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,760
[Khan] I felt this was starting
689
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,080
to get to the heart of why some young people
690
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,000
are drawn into extremism.
691
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,920
They crave acceptance, and they don't
692
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,920
feel they belong,
693
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,760
either in the family, or in the wider society.
694
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,680
Extremist groups exploit this.
695
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,920
When someone for the first time starts to understand you,
696
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,280
emotionally support you, put that arm around you.
697
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,520
Show compassion and love for you,
698
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,040
this is enormously powerful and compelling.
699
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,800
We unconditionally accept you. Brilliant, that's so powerful.
700
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,520
I always say to Pakistani parents,
701
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,920
tell your children you love them
702
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,040
and tell them you are proud of them,
703
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,560
because if you don't do that
704
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,760
you are actually creating massive rejection.
705
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,680
[Khan] I can imagine why the perceived glamour
706
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,760
and excitement of fighting might attract young men.
707
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,480
But I can't understand why young women would
708
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,480
want to leave the UK
709
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,760
and join an extremist organisation like
710
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,760
the Islamic state in Syria.
711
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,640
So Alyas introduced me to Yasmin.
712
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,880
Years ago, she joined an extremist group in the UK.
713
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,040
Although I find these groups to be deeply misogynist,
714
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,600
she said she found it a liberation.
715
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,400
This was a group where, again, we wanted to make history.
716
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,120
Our message, our visibility was powerful at that time.
717
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,200
You know, saying that women were part of this great structure.
718
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,040
If I look at myself at that time, it was just, like,
719
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,720
everyone was disgusting, everything was dirty.
720
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,400
We portrayed this or termed this as being the kuffar system,
721
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,400
the dirty kuffar system.
722
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,240
[Khan] She says, one day,
723
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,240
something happened
724
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,240
which made her realise how extreme she had become.
725
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,960
[Yasmin] I think the striking thing was
726
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,960
when I was called in at school
727
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,320
and the teacher said to me that, "Oh, we'd like to chat to you."
728
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,840
And I said, "OK, what's the matter?"
729
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,280
And she goes, "Look, I know you're good people."
730
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,760
I said, "What's happened?"
731
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,160
She said, "Well, you know, your child came up
732
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,520
and said that it's OK for us to kill, you know, non-Muslims."
733
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,160
And I thought, "Oh, my God. What is happening here?"
734
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,840
[Khan] She started to find her way
735
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,320
out of the extremist group and their mind-set.
736
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,840
But I still wanted to know why had she joined
737
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,840
in the first place.
738
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,800
Yasmin told me that, before she joined the extremists,
739
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,440
she had been the victim of sexual abuse.
740
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,000
She says she reported it to the police,
741
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,840
but the case was dropped for lack of evidence.
742
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,040
So imagine that, the hurt that I felt,
743
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,040
the hate that I felt.
744
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,760
Not only that the criminal justice system
745
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,760
had also let me down
746
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,160
because my case didn't go through court.
747
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,200
You are by yourself.
748
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,080
You know, you've got to carry all those issues into your life.
749
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,720
Where do you get the justice?
750
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,760
I wanted to see implementation of the Islamic State,
751
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200
to see my perpetrator, to be accountable
752
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200
for what he did.
753
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,920
My innocence was executed.
754
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,640
I wanted him to be... to see the pleasure of him
755
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,640
being executed in front of my very eyes.
756
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,120
[Khan] I asked Yasmin what she would
757
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,120
say to her 20-year-old self.
758
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,680
Girl, you just got to have a mind of your own.
759
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,760
Be critical, don't let anyone brainwash you.
760
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,480
OK. No matter what. I love this saying,
761
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,520
"The choices we make dictates the life that we lead."
762
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,240
Islam is a way living and not a way of death.
763
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:53,600
[man] Do you think Yasmin would have listened to you?
764
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,400
-Nah. -[laughing]
765
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,520
She'd be like, "Whatever." I'd probably smack her ennit,
766
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,720
around the head.
767
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,920
[Khan] Yasmin is now using
768
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,920
the benefit of her experience
769
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,400
to help young women out of extremism or abuse.
770
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,440
I was learning more and more to get beyond the caricature
771
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,440
of angry extremists,
772
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,640
to find the human reality which lies beneath it.
773
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,760
I found out that one of Alyas' causes
774
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,000
is to get the Muslim community to be more open about
775
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,120
the issue of sex for young people.
776
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,440
When it comes to sex,
777
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,160
who do you talk to about sex then?
778
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,360
Are you going to talk to your mum and dad about it?
779
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,800
-No. -[man] Highly unlikely.
780
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,480
Are you going to talk to your imam about it?
781
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:35,800
[man] Getting further away.
782
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,880
Even more less likely. Even in school,
783
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,680
you're uncomfortable with the whole thing
784
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,840
because you have been told at home that,
785
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,280
you know, these are not our values.
786
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,960
So already there's a discomfort there...
787
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,440
OK, because you feel that...
788
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,880
But talking about sex is a very important thing
789
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,880
and having guidance on that.
790
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,600
Where do you get the guidance from?
791
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,640
[Khan] I asked him about it later.
792
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,240
You know what, I was talking to my wife this morning
793
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,240
and I said,
794
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,320
"You know... I said, "This is all about sex.
795
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,160
This is all really, everything comes back
796
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,160
to basics."
797
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,040
And she said, "You can't say that, though."
798
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,320
But I said, "This is it, these guys just want girls.
799
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,920
That's all they want." She's says,
800
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,920
"You can't say that, though,
801
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,360
'cause you're going to get really lambasted for it."
802
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,560
Guys do things for girls. And that's it.
803
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,600
I'm there with my gun, which is more or less
804
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,320
just a penis extension, out there.
805
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,840
It is! Out there,
806
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,680
look at me, I got my gear on and I always say,
807
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,240
"You want to do it, dress up.
808
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,200
If you want to dress up go dress up somewhere
809
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,960
and, you know, do all that macho dress up stuff.
810
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,200
You know, but..."
811
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,480
OK, but really, you know,
812
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,400
it's a serious point.
813
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,880
It is a serious point, because if you grow up
814
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,280
and you are brought up with this value that you cannot
815
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,280
have sex before marriage.
816
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,080
That you cannot have a girlfriend.
817
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,960
That you cannot be, in any way,
818
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,280
this is something which is very big.
819
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,240
Haram. Very big prohibition for an individual.
820
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,360
Then you're growing up in a sexualised society.
821
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,400
There's a real sense of hate that you have
822
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,320
that, I can't do this, and that's why I find
823
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,280
greater sexual dysfunction sometimes in Muslim communities
824
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:04,760
as a result of that.
825
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,760
Now I'm a powerless person who's no one.
826
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600
I'm never... I'm not even considered.
827
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,240
I don't even think I'm good looking, you know.
828
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,960
And who... and no girls looking at me.
829
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,880
But you know what, I'm a mujahid now.
830
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,960
I'm there with my gun, I'm powerful now. I'm sexy now.
831
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,080
Girls are going to look at me, and there's girls who will
832
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,080
want to become my bride now.
833
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,200
[Khan] In the end, I want to know
834
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,440
how people come out of the cycle of extremism
835
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,440
and violence.
836
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,120
Is there any hope?
837
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,760
People I met who'd embraced extremism in the past
838
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,920
told me they'd now renounced their views.
839
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520
Even Abu Muntasir, one of the godfathers
840
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520
of the British jihad,
841
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,200
eventually left violent extremism.
842
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,320
I asked him how it happened.
843
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,280
He told me that even while he was fighting throughout
844
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,280
the 1990s,
845
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,520
he was starting to form doubts.
846
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,320
Often it seemed to him,
847
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,520
that instead of defending Muslims against non-believers,
848
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,000
they were actually fighting other Muslims.
849
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,880
And again and again, he encountered corruption
850
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,160
and power battles amongst the Mujahideen leaders.
851
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,560
He says it all came to a head on his last jihad.
852
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,160
He went to fight in Burma, thinking he would be
853
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,760
defending the minority Muslim population,
854
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,520
against a repressive government.
855
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,600
I saw the corruption in the sense
856
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,600
that how we would...
857
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,760
the commanders of the upper echelons
858
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,760
would have privileged diet.
859
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,280
We are raising money here.
860
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,120
£100,000 at a go or something like that,
861
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,320
£50,000 cash we're giving to the Mujahedeen.
862
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,280
Half the money is going to the commander's son,
863
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,480
studying a degree course in Malaysia to pay for his fees.
864
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,320
We are justifying it, saying, "Well, you have to
865
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,320
support the commanders.
866
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,560
Without them how can the fight carry on?"
867
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,960
And nobody asks you, "Why does the fight have to carry on?"
868
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,240
The one story that affects me the most...
869
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,160
concerning Burma,
870
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,720
is in the jungles when I met two brothers.
871
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,160
Thirteen years old.
872
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,160
[exhales]
873
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,440
I tried to visualise my son and daughter
874
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,560
in the same position.
875
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,680
It's not the suffering of being in the jungle
876
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:48,280
and living in the dirt and eating poor food,
877
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,120
it's the idea and the picture of them,
878
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,400
my son and daughter, carrying guns to be maimed
879
00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:01,160
or blown up at the behest of leaders and commanders
880
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:07,120
who fight for a false ideal and an unwinnable war.
881
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,480
And those two boys came to me.
882
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,440
My children may want to not go to school
883
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,440
and run away from homework.
884
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,360
They came to me, and they begged me
885
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,600
to take them with me
886
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,760
and they said they were not lying,
887
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,440
you can tell when people are lying.
888
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,200
Thirteen-year-olds telling me, "I just want to go to school."
889
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,200
[sobbing]
890
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,520
We can make the difference and we didn't.
891
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,120
[sniffling]
892
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:59,840
I'd rather live as slaves and have my kids go to school.
893
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:04,520
I don't want this false... What is this honour?
894
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,840
I am happy to be a coward.
895
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,160
Perhaps they are not alive today.
896
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,800
Already dead because very soon after that was the next meeting.
897
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,040
And the commander lined up all the platoon commanders,
898
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,080
there's eight in a platoon, and about 20 platoons
899
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,080
were lined up.
900
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,880
The average age is about 15. [clears throat]
901
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,320
And these two 13-year-olds were carrying grenade launchers,
902
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,600
machine guns, you know 13-year-olds.
903
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,000
And I'm over 40 years old. Dad of 12.
904
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,480
Still living, still smiling, going to parks.
905
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,360
And if I can, I should die to give them a chance for peace.
906
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,320
And I didn't. So I withdrew completely.
907
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,840
But the commander lined us all up,
908
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,840
platoon commanders,
909
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,240
and he made a special point to look at me.
910
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,360
And he was saying a speech, oh, they'd just come back
911
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,360
from a conflict and they have...
912
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:26,720
Two of our boys got killed, so on our side, two young,
913
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,800
those 13, 14-year-olds were killed.
914
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,240
Why were they killed?
915
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,520
Because they belonged to the wrong organisation.
916
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,720
Because the people who killed our boys
917
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,720
were a rival Muslim organisation
918
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,840
fighting for the same cause, for the same people.
919
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,320
So once again, Muslim against Muslim.
920
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,080
I said, "Yeah, this is what we are for,
921
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,080
what am I doing?"
922
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,480
We all talk about jihad and idealism and stuff.
923
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,200
[sighs deeply]
924
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,520
He looked at me and said, "And so and so.
925
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,960
Mr. so and so is our enemy."
926
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:04,120
and telling all these 20 times eight, 160-200 people,
927
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,880
you have to learn to kill your rival organisation
928
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,480
because they have killed your people.
929
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,120
Creating hatred and enmity amongst each other,
930
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,680
while the Burmese soldiers are happy in their camps,
931
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,160
the Burmese government couldn't care at all.
932
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,920
And we are in the jungles, not giving peace a chance
933
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,600
and just want to be supported in our jihad.
934
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,000
What jihad, I don't know, it's not jihad at all.
935
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:28,800
And in Britain, even mention this,
936
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,800
about jihad and they will jump up.
937
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,560
Women might give their jewellery in support of jihad
938
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,760
and men will want to go and fight and they will say,
939
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,480
you are a coward, or you have lost your faith,
940
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,480
or you have become a sellout.
941
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,080
It's fine. The short life will pass.
942
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,320
You will die. You may or may not
943
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,320
meet your lord.
944
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,760
I think I will. And then we'll see.
945
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,880
Anyway, that's when I stopped this whole foolishness.
946
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,360
[Khan] I had been trying to find out
947
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,360
why people become radical,
948
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,760
and if there is a way out of this madness.
949
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,880
I had met Munir, too.
950
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,080
As a teenager, he said he'd wanted
951
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,080
to kill and to die as a martyr,
952
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,320
and now, just like Abu Muntasir,
953
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,120
he says he's realised the real reasons
954
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,120
that he became an extremist.
955
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,040
For me, coming to terms with my physical state
956
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,240
has been the greatest realisation I've known
957
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,240
as a human being on this earth.
958
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,400
For me to be able to accept that I don't need to be ashamed
959
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,400
of how I look, and I don't need society
960
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,160
to tell me that I don't need to be ashamed.
961
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,040
My greatest jihad was, back then, coming to terms with me.
962
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,920
My greatest jihad, even today, is still
963
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,920
coming to terms with me.
964
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,040
And it sparked a journey of discovery
965
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,920
and realisation that I've carried forward for 18 years.
966
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,120
[Khan] He now works to de-radicalise
967
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,120
other young people,
968
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,400
and explores issues of pain and identity
969
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,400
through art and poetry.
970
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,080
Usama, once a bookish 19-year-old who went to jihad
971
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,280
with Abu Muntasir in Afghanistan,
972
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,200
is now an Imam in London who preaches moderation
973
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,200
and tolerance.
974
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:12,720
And as for Alyas, I asked him what he feels now
975
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:12,720
about Abu Muntasir,
976
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,880
the man who led him into extremism,
977
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,280
and to whom he gave the best years of his life.
978
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,080
[Khan] Do you forgive him?
979
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,600
Of course, I forgive him, yeah.
980
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,240
You know, it was just, you know...
981
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,400
You've got to realise we were all, even Abu Muntasir,
982
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,400
we were all young.
983
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:31,960
And we were foolish.
984
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,280
And we didn't have the whole picture. That was it.
985
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,240
So I think we've just got to realise that.
986
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,400
I can look back and I say, you know, this was just,
987
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,400
you know,
988
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,120
of course, with hindsight we can say,
989
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,160
I should have done this and I should have done that,
990
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,680
but the reality is that we were just young and foolish.
991
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:50,760
We have to forgive and the forgiveness is,
992
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:56,200
you could say, also supported by the fact that people
993
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:56,200
try to make amends,
994
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:01,480
you know, and try to redress the damage that they've done.
995
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,840
[Khan] In September last year,
996
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,840
Saeed and his brother
997
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,560
were told they wouldn't have to face a retrial
998
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,760
Saeed was given a suspended sentence of 22 months
999
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,840
for the offences he did admit, and his brother 15 months.
1000
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,000
Their cousin was given 16 years in prison.
1001
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,840
Many of the men and women I have met had embraced
1002
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,600
a stronger Islamic identity as a way of expressing anger.
1003
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,360
[speaks indistinct] [Khan]
1004
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,120
Everyone is different.
1005
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,640
Not all Muslims feel alienated
1006
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,320
and the majority of Muslims reject extremism.
1007
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,520
And the two men I met in Birmingham, Sabeel and Waseem,
1008
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,200
told me that adopting Islam was a way of becoming
1009
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,200
a better person.
1010
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:45,560
All it's done for me and my life is made me a better person.
1011
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,360
It's made me a nicer person.
1012
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,320
It's sorted out the relationship problems
1013
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,320
that I was having between me and my parents.
1014
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800
It's sorted out the problems that I was having between,
1015
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,040
you know, friends and being in the right crowds.
1016
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,320
It's sorted out me making a legal living.
1017
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,000
I used to be dangerous. I used to be dangerous,
1018
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,880
but all of us, you know, now we're nicer people.
1019
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,960
You wouldn't have this interview with me,
1020
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,960
we wouldn't be sitting here
1021
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,800
talking to you four years ago, trust me.
1022
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,440
If we knew that you're coming into our area
1023
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,120
and you've got those expensive cameras.
1024
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,040
We're going to find a way to take 'em off ya.
1025
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,320
We ain't going to sit here and talk to you about,
1026
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,920
you know, about anything.
1027
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,760
Or they'll be coming out of Lahore's at 5:00 o'clock.
1028
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,120
Yeah... sneaky one, make the phone call,
1029
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,880
that's how it would happen.
1030
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,040
But, yo, it's made us, Alhamdulillah.
1031
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,200
-It's made us better people. -Definitely.
1032
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:34,640
Why on the news are you always picking the guy
1033
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:34,640
that looks the angriest?
1034
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,680
We're not angry. I'm not angry. I'm a happy person.
1035
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:38,360
Come and speak to me, I'll smile,
1036
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,640
you know, I'll do the same things that you do.
1037
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,360
I'm just as British as anybody else, you know.
1038
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,280
Why do you think I'm angry at the world?
1039
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,680
Like, you know, why do you always pick that one person
1040
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,440
to go on the news that's always angry
1041
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,440
at everybody else?
1042
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,840
Maybe he's got some personal problems
1043
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,840
that he's not happy about.
1044
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,120
You know, he can't represent me.
1045
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,920
[Khan] During the 18 months
1046
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,920
I spent making this film,
1047
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,360
even my own friends were sceptical.
1048
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,280
They said I shouldn't try to understand extremists.
1049
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,280
They said they are just monsters,
1050
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,080
that they are throwing away comfortable lives in the West
1051
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,920
and we should just let them go and kill themselves.
1052
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,440
But here is I what I have learned.
1053
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,960
I came to understand that radicalisation is about pain.
1054
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,800
It's the pain of young people, facing racism,
1055
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,720
exclusion from society, isolation from
1056
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,720
the opposite sex,
1057
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,400
overwhelming pressure from families and communities,
1058
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,760
a crisis of identity and feeling powerless
1059
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,760
and insignificant.
1060
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,600
Yes, many of them have material comforts,
1061
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,360
but I believe too many of them lead lives
1062
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,360
of emotional poverty.
1063
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,440
And what I also found is that people can
1064
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,360
come out of extremism and rebuild their lives.
1065
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,080
So I said to my friends, "There is hope
1066
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,080
and we shouldn't give up.
1067
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,480
We need to look beyond what divides us
1068
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:58,560
and come together to create a society where we all belong."
1069
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,040
I ended up where I started, with Abu Muntasir.
1070
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,040
Since he renounced extremism,
1071
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:08,520
he has become a moderate voice
1072
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,240
in the British Muslim community,
1073
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,960
doing interfaith work and promoting a tolerant
1074
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,440
and compassionate expression of Islam.
1075
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,160
I asked him if he thinks he will be forgiven
1076
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,160
for the harm
1077
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,360
that he did in his extremist days.
1078
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,480
Why am I not arrested, I don't know.
1079
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,880
I hope I'm not arrested because I want to do
1080
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,880
much good in society.
1081
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,080
I want to educate people. I want to tell others
1082
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,680
how to be better in being at home in your community.
1083
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:36,240
And if you don't want to do that,
1084
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,000
people decide it's not worth it, they are too nervous,
1085
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,920
do what you want, it's legal, just, fair.
1086
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,280
I have my reward with God, whether you kill me
1087
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,280
or let me live,
1088
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,680
I want to die with a clean conscience.
1089
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:50,960
And that's what Islam is about.
1090
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,160
[Khan] Do you think you should be forgiven?
1091
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,760
Do you feel you should be forgiven?
1092
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,520
If I've done those things which have terribly upset people
1093
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,000
or hurt people, I should be forgiven.
1094
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,920
I should forgive others as well.
1095
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,480
Don't forget that for me, personally,
1096
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,080
I had my elder brother killed.
1097
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,360
I have forgiven. I have truly forgiven,
1098
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,400
I will embrace, I will shake hands.
1099
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,040
I will work with my murderers...
1100
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,040
my brother's murderers,
1101
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,640
hand in hand. Even if my mother
1102
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,640
cries at my feet and says,
1103
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,440
"Son, what are you doing? He killed your brother."
1104
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,360
I will say, "No, Mum. I am a Muslim,
1105
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,160
I have forgiven, God will judge."
1106
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:35,040
I cannot hate. Hate is not what
1107
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:35,040
Mohammed taught.
1108
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,480
Salla llahu walay-hi wa-alehe-wa-sallam.
1109
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,960
I have been forgiven, I will forgive.
1110
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,960
That's the least I can do.
1111
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,280
You have a right to punish me if you think that's fair.
1112
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,240
I will take it on.
1113
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,640
[Khan] Have you forgiven yourself?
1114
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,040
[sniffling]
1115
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,240
[sniffling continues]
1116
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,960
[breathes deeply]
1117
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,160
How do I look?
1118
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,120
[Khan indistinct]
1119
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,200
Let's continue.
1120
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:37,520
I don't know.
1121
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,880
How do you answer that?