Did anybody used to play video games sometimes? Yeah?
The-the... the game... one of my favorite games ever,
Uncharted, is... they said they're making a movie.
Like, now, they, like, released, like, the trailer thing.
I don't know, man. I don't know...
Okay, here's my thing. Here's my thing.
The whole point of a video game
is that you're in control of the character.
That's what makes it more fun than anything else.
And then they're like: Hey,
you know how you could do all this stuff?
Imagine if you couldn't.
Now you just watch it.
Like, that's why the video game was better in the first place.
Now you're just gonna make me watch...
I could just watch a streamer, then.
I go on YouTube and watch someone playing the game.
That's the same thing. Now you want me to pay...
Then I come with popcorn like an idiot.
"He should have jumped."
Like, what am I... What is the point of this thing?
It's... 'cause it, you know it's going to be these games now
and then at some point it's gonna be Pac-Man.
Now we're there watching two hours, Daniel Day-Lewis,
(imitating Pac-Man): ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba,
boo, baa-baa-baa-baa, boo...
I mean, he would be amazing, we can all admit that.
If anyone could play Pac-Man, it would be Daniel Day-Lewis.
He'd probably kill that shit.
You'd be like: I don't know about Pac...
How can you watch a movie about Pac-Man?
And then he'd come on and be like: ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba,
boo, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, boo...
(like Day-Lewis): It's your dot.
And then now it's my dot.
And you'd just be like: Jesus, what a gripping performance.
♪ ♪
ANNOUNCER: Coming to you from the heart of Times Square,
the most important place on Earth,
it's The Daily Show.
Tonight, the next step for workers' rights,
Senator Duckworth,
and Michael Pollan.
This is The Daily Show with Trevor Noah.
Hey! What's going on, everybody?
Welcome to The Daily Show. I'm Trevor Noah.
And today I'm joined by...
Oh. Nobody.
Do we have no... no correspondent here today?
Oh, sorry. Okay, they've been stopping in
so many times, I just... I kind of got used to it.
But that's okay. I'm excited to be going solo!
Because tonight, we...
Oh. Sorry, I thought someone came in.
That's fine. All right, let's just...
let's just jump straight into the headlines.
Do you guys remember Donald Trump?
Yeah? You guys remember him?
No? No? Maybe not?
He was a reality TV guy, used to be president,
tried to overthrow the government, still kind of is?
Well, if you haven't thought about him for a while,
it's probably because back in January,
he got kicked off of Twitter and Facebook,
which was his main way of spreading his gospel.
And now because of that,
he's been forced to post only on OnlyFans.
And he's actually doing great.
Yeah, he's got the biggest boobs on the whole website.
But still, he wants a bigger platform,
which is why last night he announced that he is starting
his very own social media network,
called Truth Social, saying, quote...
And yes, in case you didn't get it,
they're calling their posts "truths."
Which is so lame, I don't care what anyone says.
'Cause, I mean, it makes the whole thing sound like...
Remember, like, those guys who came to your school assemblies?
Yo, lemme post a truth at you-- drugs are wack!
Except for ivermectin! Yo!
Also, you know what this means, right?
If Trump is posting "truths,"
knowing him, eventually he's gonna start posting "dares."
(like Trump): "Okay, I shared my truth.
Now I dare you to hang Mike Pence.
And the big reason Trump and his people
want their own social media app is that they are sick and tired
of censorship from Big Tech.
And Truth Social is promising to be a free-speech paradise,
a place where anyone can say anything-- with some exceptions.
NEWSMAN: Former President Trump's new free-speech
social network will not be allowing criticism of itself.
The home page of Truth Social says the network will be
a platform for open, free and honest global conversation.
The "terms of service" page, however,
says users will not be allowed to disparage,
tarnish or otherwise harm the social media site.
The Truth Social is expected to go live sometime next year.
Yo, this man is a legend.
He creates a free-speech website,
and immediately was like, "Okay, here's what you can't say."
It's like if the first rule of Fight Club was:
Hey, hey, hey, no fighting, no fighting.
No fighting. We work shit out here.
And I'll be honest, like, I'm actually on Trump's side here.
It's his website.
He doesn't want people coming on there to roast it.
Just like he wouldn't want people walking into his home
like: Who decorated this place?
It looks like King Midas molested your apartment.
At the same time, though, you know this is gonna backfire,
because half of the fun of being on social media
is talking shit about the platform.
I mean, if you deleted all the tweets
that talked shit about Twitter on Twitter,
the only thing left would be that Denzel GIF.
And, like, really, find another way to express yourself, people.
And how is Trump... How is Trump of all people
gonna make a rule about disparaging comments?
I mean, this man roasts people so much,
he has to do it at auctioneer speed.
"We got a fat guy in the front row.
"Total slob. Total slob. Yes, over here to the ugly chick.
"Low energy. Major failure.
"Sold to the low-life horseface bozo
who's weak on China."
But still, Trump has started his own social media site.
(chuckles) Which is crazy, right, Roy?
Because it's just...
Oh, right, he's...
He's not here.
All right, let's move on.
Because when Trump lost the election,
he was so humiliated that ever since,
he's been spreading completely made-up claims of voter fraud.
And in response to this imaginary voter fraud,
Republican-led states around the country
have been making it harder to vote.
All right? Passing laws that limit voting hours
restricting access to mail-in ballots
and offering an express voting line
for anybody with a valid photo
of themselves storming the Capitol.
Which is why Democrats in Congress
have put together a bill
designed to protect voting rights.
But last night, the bill failed in the Senate
with every Democrat voting for it
and every Republican voting against it.
Which, yeah, of course.
I mean, of course Republicans weren't gonna support a bill
that's gonna make it harder for them to win.
No one wants to make it harder on themselves to win.
If I have a choice of playing pickup
against Kevin Hart or Shaq,
yo, I'm gonna choose to play against Shaq.
Have you seen all those IcyHot commercials?
That man's body's falling apart.
I got a good shot.
But once again, the only reason
Republicans were able to block this bill
is because of the filibuster.
And many Democrats have said that now,
they've had enough.
NEWSWOMAN: Some Democrats say it's time
to scrap the filibuster rule to get this bill passed.
More Democrats now agreeing to carve out
a voting rights exception to the filibuster rule,
something they have been reluctant to change.
NEWSMAN: That appears highly unlikely to happen
because two key Democratic holdouts,
Senator Kyrsten Sinema, Senator Joe Manchin,
they're on board with the Freedom to Vote Act,
but they also support preserving the 60-vote threshold.
And there's no daylight--
uh, or, really, no movement, I should say--
on their part in terms of, uh, changing the filibuster rule
to allow this to move forward.
Yeah, so, basically, most Democrats
think it's fine to alter the filibuster,
at least in this one case,
because protecting voting rights is an emergency.
You know? It's the same way
that when you need to get to a hospital,
it's okay to drive over the speed limit.
But Manchin and Sinema, well, they're basically saying,
"Yeah, you might do it now, but where does it end?"
I mean, first, you'll say
you'll only speed to get to the hospital,
but then it's to make a doctor's appointment on time.
And then it's to get to the grocery store.
And then if you're... if you're late to a movie, you speed.
And then if you're not late for the movie
but you just really want to see the trailers, then you speed.
Then you're just speeding all the time!
But I will say this as someone who's not from this country.
People around the world don't envy America
because of its commitment to the filibuster.
People envy America
because of its long-standing commitment
to stuffing things with cheese.
Those are the principles Congress should be living up to.
If you ask me, there's a compromise here.
They should just treat exceptions to the filibuster
like it's wishes from a genie.
You only get three.
The trick is to use your third filibuster exception
to ask for more exceptions.
What's that? Did you say something, Empty Table?
(laughs) Yeah, you're right.
The Democrats really can't get their act together, man.
You said it, Table.
Oh, man.
Ah. All right, and finally,
here's a story guaranteed to leave you yawning
and half asleep but, like, in a super interesting way.
NEWSMAN: A new bus tour is designed to be boring
and put people to sleep.
The five-hour ride on a double-decker bus
takes people around Hong Kong.
It's meant to appeal to people
who are easily lulled asleep by long rides,
and it was inspired by the tendency of tired commuters
to fall asleep on public transit.
Tickets cost between $13 and $51
depending on whether they choose seats
on the upper or lower deck.
A goody bag for passengers
includes an eye mask and earplugs.
Some even come prepared
with their own pillows and blankets.
That's right, a bus you just sleep on.
Which I actually think, on the whole, is a great idea,
'Cause remember how nice it was when you were a little kid
and you could just drift off and fall asleep in the car?
But now as an adult, you can't do that
because "you'll hit a pedestrian" or whatever.
And, look, yes, $51 seems pricey,
but I do think it's actually a bargain.
I mean, one ticket, and you get access
to dozens of unguarded wallets.
(chuckles) Those losers go to sleep,
you just go in there and grab the shit.
You don't do that with sleeping people? Oh.
I will say, though, there are a couple of problems with this.
Okay? Um, first of all,
I don't know if I trust this company,
because this is exactly how you get to Squid Game.
Secondly, let's be honest. This is wasteful.
I mean, sleeping was the one human activity left
that didn't leave a carbon footprint,
and now even that's ruined.
Now, if getting knocked out on a bus excites you
but you can't get to Hong Kong, the good news is
you can experience this right here.
Yeah. What you do is you get on a Greyhound bus,
and you wait for someone to open the bathroom door,
and you won't wake up for two days.
(laughing)
Hey, Table, did you hear what I said?
I said, "If you want to get knocked out,
you open the bathroom door on a Greyhound."
What? What's that? (laughs)
I should set the studio on fire?
Yeah, dude! It would be so funny!
(laughing): It would be so great!
All because it would burn!
(laughing maniacally)
-(distorted laughter) -(eerie music playing)
(distorted): Oh, Table!
Oh, my God, Table.
(distorted laughter)
All right. That's it for the headlines.
Let's move on to our top story.
As you may or may not know,
October is Disability Employment Awareness Month,
a month where organizers inform us
about how unfairly disabled people can be treated at work.
But the question is,
why is this still an issue in today's society?
Well, let's find out why in another installment
of If You Don't Know, Now You Know.
♪ ♪
Disabled people face a lot of challenges
when it comes to employment:
discrimination in hiring,
a lack of accessible office spaces,
coworkers who claim they're also disabled
because they "just can't do gluten."
And there's a big issue getting a lot of attention right now
about how much disabled people get paid.
Minimum wage isn't the same for everyone.
Businesses can take advantage of a section of a federal act
that allows them to pay people with disabilities less.
NEWSMAN: Employers can apply for a Section 14(c) certification
of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.
That grants them the ability to pay workers with disabilities
less than the federal minimum wage of $7.25.
NEWSWOMAN: This program was established
under the Roosevelt administration
with, arguably, good intentions.
War veterans who developed physical
and mental disabilities from combat
came home from abroad and struggled to find employment.
NEWSWOMAN 2: There's no limit to how low an employer can pay,
so employers could legally pay pennies per hour.
NEWSMAN 2: There are even places in America
where workers earn as little as $0.22 an hour.
It's all perfectly legal.
Yeah. $0.22 an hour.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I was shocked
when I heard that. Because I don't think any human being
should be earning less than a gumball machine.
Even in Africa, we'd see this and be like,
"What? That's not even enough for a cup of coffee a day."
And it doesn't even make sense in terms of just language.
How can a wage be lower than the minimum wage?
Minimum is supposed to be the minimum.
It's like when the weatherman says,
"It's below freezing out there."
Yo, man, once something is frozen, it's frozen.
(bleep) out here with your weather voodoo.
So it's no surprise that there is a movement
to get rid of subminimum pay.
More and more states have been passing laws
to close the loophole.
And President Biden recently called on Congress
to phase it out completely.
And this seems like one of those things
that everyone should agree on, you know?
Like freeing Britney
or the first Aunt Viv was better
or that-that the best karaoke song is TLC's "No Scrubs."
But it's actually more complicated
than you might think,
because some argue that this wage loophole
is actually a good thing for the disabled.
NEWSWOMAN: Employers that can pay below $7.25 an hour
are typically agencies that work directly
with people with disabilities to help them find jobs.
NEWSMAN: What's called a "sheltered workshop."
Here, the disabled get virtually guaranteed employment,
but they are not guaranteed minimum wage.
NEWSMAN 2: These job programs are designed to develop skills,
create social groups
and instill a sense of value for their clients.
NEWSMAN 3: If 14(c) certificates cannot be applied for,
some are worried about the unintended consequences.
They say people with profound disabilities
may lose a chance to be employed.
If subminimum wage goes away,
the biggest impact would be on our folks
who have severe disabilities.
The handicapped, the disabled worker
is not gonna be given an employment opportunity.
NEWSMAN 4: Rory Rowland says his son's tried other jobs,
but sheltered workshops provide gainful employment
and purpose for his son.
If we forced him to go out
and try to find a minimum-wage job,
he would be unemployed.
Yeah, you see?
That's what makes this so complicated.
Many of the places that use this loophole
are called "sheltered workshops,"
which exist to provide these jobs to disabled people.
So there's a legitimate concern that losing this wage loophole
might end up hurting the very people
they're trying to help.
Because if they close down,
some disabled people won't be able to get jobs at all.
And having a job is important.
I mean, it gives you structure, it gives you a community,
gives you a sense of purpose
and an I.D. badge with the worst picture you've ever taken.
Keeps you humble.
So you could see how this arrangement,
as messed up as it seems,
might be better than nothing.
At the same time, many advocates say that,
by providing a safety net for the disabled,
these sheltered workshops could actually
be doing more harm than good.
When it's legal to pay people less than the minimum wage,
often as little as 20 or 30 cents an hour,
uh, it raises serious questions about exploitation,
uh, and whether people are really be giving
an opportunity to reach their full potential.
The sheltered workshop system takes people
and systematically tells them
they're not as good as the rest of the workforce.
To me, it's not right that we're getting the pay that we get,
'cause we work hard over there.
We work very hard.
It's not like they're just helping them get any job.
They help them get only the kinds of jobs
that this place has available.
NEWSWOMAN: Ken Capone attended Johns Hopkins University.
Ken also has cerebral palsy.
Finding a job was difficult.
He ended up in a sheltered workshop.
CAPONE: Do you know how demeaning it was
going to a sheltered workshop
after completing a difficult programing class?
NEWSWOMAN: He left after one day.
CAPONE: But what if I did go back and work there?
I probably would have still been there working
for pennies on the dollar,
not having the opportunities I have today.
Yeah, you see? This makes sense, too.
If society pushes disabled people
into these low-wage workshops, it tells them
that this is where they're supposed to be,
and it limits their potential, because we know
that disabled people are capable of doing great things.
I mean, Stephen Hawking was an astrophysicist, even with ALS.
Franklin Roosevelt-- he ran the country from a wheelchair.
Stevie Wonder is the reason that "Happy Birthday" is better
at Black birthday parties than white birthday parties.
And, look, this whole idea
that disabled people shouldn't be paid the same
as able-bodied people because they're not as productive--
like, I don't know about that argument, guys.
Because it's not like every able-bodied person is great
at their job, either.
If you ask me, disabled people should have the right
to be as shitty at their jobs as everyone else.
Yeah, they should also be able to show up late,
do just enough work to not get fired,
play Fruit Ninja in the bathroom,
and then leave at 4:30 on the dot.
That, my friends, is equality.
Anyway, for more on this debate, we're joined
by Illinois Senator Tammy Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth, welcome to The Daily Show.
It's good to be on. Thank you for having me.
This is a topic
that I know is really near and dear to your heart,
because you're not just a combat veteran,
but you're a combat veteran with a disability,
who went into a capitol building
that really wasn't designed for somebody like you
or anybody with a disability, for that matter.
And you've been at the forefront of advocating for equality.
So let's start at the top level.
What do you think are some of the issues
that are still standing in the way
of disabled people in America being able
to get a fair wage and being able to get a job
that can sustain them, you know, to live?
Well, it's everything from prejudice
that they're going to be more expensive to employ,
or that you're going to have to do something with your workplace
to accommodate somebody with disabilities,
and that's going to cost too much money.
Um, that's really...
You know, those are really false arguments.
In fact, studies show
that when per... a disabled person lands a job,
they become very loyal, and they stay in those jobs
for far longer than anybody else.
There's far less turnover with persons with disabilities
once they're able to land a job.
Um, and they make really good, productive employees
once they can get employment.
But people with disabilities suffer
very, very high unemployment rates, well over 50%.
Um, in your home state of Illinois,
the governor just signed an executive order, um,
denying companies, or really government contractors,
from hiring people with disabilities
at sub-minimum wage.
Many even within the disabled community will say,
"Hey, we can't transition into normal jobs.
"We can't do everything
"that these companies require us... require us to do.
"And so, some of these moments, some of these experiences
"are less about the income
and more about us being a part of society."
So to those people, what do you... what do you say to them?
Do you...? Are you concerned at all
that they will lose an opportunity
to be part of something?
Or do you think there's a world
where the companies won't now say,
"There's no reason to hire them," or "We should hire them"?
Well, these companies are saying,
"Well, if don't incentivize us,
we're not gonna hire someone with a disability."
Yet, the people with the disability
have been doing that work.
It doesn't make sense. This argument doesn't make sense.
If they're already doing the job,
you should pay them the same pay.
And many of these companies actually have
non-disabled workers doing the same job,
but they're paying a far higher salary.
But because this law exists on the books, they're allowed
to basically exploit people with intellectual disabilities,
in particular, um,
to do work that they're paying somebody else
to do the same work a higher wage.
And that simply is not fair, and, frankly, un-American.
Do you think there's a way to protect these workers,
you know, once this law goes into effect?
Do you think there's a way to protect them
from losing their jobs?
You know, whether it would be spite from the companies,
or just them trying to prove a point?
Well, we're seeing, um, that-that many
of these companies that had this argument previously
have actually moved away from the sub-minimum wage,
and they have not employed fewer persons with disabilities.
In fact, they've employed the same people,
and they just started paying them the minimum wage.
So we see that this is an empty argument.
So there's this intimidation that's going on, um,
to really prey on the fears of both the adults
-with intellectual disabilities... -Mm-hmm.
...but also their family members.
And I feel that what we need to be working towards
is an integrated work environment
where we do make accommodations.
Target does a great job of hiring, uh,
persons with intellectual disabilities.
And they-they stock the shelves.
Some of them even work the registers.
And they're working alongside any
of the other Target team members.
We have grocery stores, uh, um, uh,
that do the same thing.
So we've seen that this model that we should be going to
-already exists, and is successful. -Mm-hmm.
And we can start ditching these old, you know, models
from not just the 20th century, but the 19th century,
when we take people with disabilities
and put them in a segregated work environment
and then pay them less.
Well, um, congratulations on the fight.
I, um, I know we support you in the movement going forward.
And, um, I know we've got to let you go.
So thank you so much for taking the time.
Thank you so much for covering this issue.
All right, when we come back,
how much are you keeping up on the news?
Well, Michael Kosta is going to find out. He's behind you.
Welcome back to The Daily Show.
Here at the show, we pay a lot of attention
to what's going on in the news.
But how much are the people right outside our studio
following along?
Well, we sent Michael Kosta to find out.
All right, welcome to Fill Me In,
the game show where you fill in the...
News.
Blank.
♪ ♪
Okay, let's get started.
Republican senator Chuck Grassley.
-You know who he is? -No.
-He's a Republican senator. -Okay.
I just told you that.
Chuck Grassley, 88-year-old senator.
-Okay. -He recently tweeted, quote,
"It's 4:00 a.m. in Iowa, so I'm" blank.
He's hitting the restroom.
-Drinking coffee. -Why would you say that?
Uh, because he's 88 years old.
And if you're 88 and you're not drinking coffee, you are...
-Boring! -Dead! Correct.
-Milking the cows? -No, that's not what he said.
He said he was running.
Oh. That sounds like a lie.
Why do you say that?
'Cause he's 88 and he looks like that.
I mean, my grandpa's 88. I don't even like him standing.
Zero points on the board. It's still anyone's game.
Alabama Republican Tim James is running for governor,
vowing to, quote,
"fight the beast with three heads:
"critical race theory,
"transgender rights
"and" blank "in public schools."
-Masks. -Masks.
Okay, think dumber than masks.
I don't know, basic human rights?
Think less threatening.
I-I... Religious freedom?
-Even less threatening than re... -(chuckles)
-Evolution. Oh, my God. -Ev... Even less thr...
What is something
that maybe you've done in the last month
that made you feel centered? Look, I'm doing it right now.
-Yoga. -Yoga.
-Are you kidding me? -Alabama Republican.
Hey, that's good enough for one point.
Next question.
You're gonna love this next one.
A lyric from a new Kanye West album.
-(laughs) What? -"Some say Adam could never be Black
'cause a Black man will never" blank.
-White guy, I would sit this one out. -Yeah, I was about to say
I'm not gonna say a single thing
-about this one. -Yo, yo, I'm sitting this one out.
Don't be shy. You won't get canceled.
This is TV. It's not Twitter.
-Black men don't cheat. -(laughs)
-Cheat. -Get cheated on?
Cheat. It is... wrong!
"Some say Adam could never be Black
-'cause a Black man will never..." -Die.
Die. A Black man will never die? Is that accurate?
-I don't know. Maybe. -You don't know. How about this?
-(chuckles) -What if I told you the answer
was "share his rib"?
Wow.
Now I'm gonna get canceled.
Let's give some people a chance for double points.
This one, I'm not gonna give you the speaker.
-Okay. -But if you can guess who said this,
I'll give you bonus points.
Who said, "I'm more of a blank
than I am a politician"?
-Trump has said it in some form. -Okay.
-This man looks great with his shirt off. -Putin?
Do you think Putin looks great with his shirt off?
-I don't, but he say he does. -(laughs)
-That jumped right out though. -Yeah, right. -(laughs)
Does this help?
MAN: Oh. Uh, yeah,
I should definitely know who that dude is.
-Is this... -Wasn't he Batman?
Sure. Absolutely, he was Batman.
-Matthew McConaughey? -Matthew?
KOSTA: Matthew McConaughey'd.
What is he more of than a politician?
-A stud. -You think he said, "I'm more of a stud
-than a politician"? -(chuckles)
This is what he said:
Isn't that kind of a badass answer?
No. I don't think so.
KOSTA: Congratulations to everyone who played.
Let's find out what they won.
Okay, here's your prize.
You get a photograph of Chuck Grassley.
Put it in your bathroom. It'll be a reminder to use sunscreen.
-I don't want that. -You don't want that?
-I do not. -She doesn't want it.
Thank you, Mo. Bye!
♪ ♪
Thank you so much for that, Michael.
All right, when we come back, author Michael Pollan
is gonna try to convince me to take drugs.
You don't want to miss it.
And neither do I. Oh, this is gonna be exciting.
Welcome back to The Daily Show.
My guest tonight is bestselling author Michael Pollan.
He's here to talk about his brand-new book
about the human attraction to psychoactive plants
and how we think about drugs.
Michael Pollan, welcome to the show.
Hey, Trevor. Good to be here.
It's really a pleasure to have you here.
Like me, many... most people were exposed to your work
-first through food. -Yeah.
You know? It was food, it was food, it was food.
And then all of a sudden, it was drugs.
What changed for you?
Well, it didn't change for me that much.
My interest in food was part of my broader interest
in the human relationship to other species,
-plants especially. -Mm-hmm.
What do we use plants for? What desires do they gratify?
Obviously, food is the biggest one
and the first one you would do.
But the other thing plants have done for us, for all of history,
every culture on the planet, basically,
is change consciousness.
So, um...
health, plants and ingestion.
Those are the three things that made me think
I have to do this next.
And then I started hearing about this incredible research,
-Right. -using psychedelics, psilocybin mushrooms,
to heal mental illness.
And that struck me as such a strange idea
that I just had to delve in and see what was going on.
It feels like you discovered, you know,
Shangri-la or, you know, some... Atlantis or...
-because that research has been hidden for so long. -Buried.
-Yeah, it's been buried. -And that was...
that was a real surprise to me.
When I started... I read about these studies
where they were using psilocybin to help cancer patients
-deal with their depression and anxiety, -Mm-hmm.
um, and I thought that this was a brand-new thing,
and, like most people, I thought of psychedelics
as a '60s things.
-Yes. -But it turns out that through the '50s
and into the 60s, there was a lot of very serious research
using LSD and psilocybin as treatment for mental illness.
And they were getting really good results.
They were having great success dealing with alcoholism,
-breaking people of those habits. -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And there was... it was, um...
LSD Was considered a wonder drug,
and there were conferences
and a thousand peer-reviewed papers,
-Wow. -six international conferences.
And then it stops.
There's this kind of moral panic
in the late '60s about psychedelics,
and, uh, they were regarded as very disruptive to society.
And Nixon, you know, launches the drug war as a result.
So, so, all that research gets buried.
-Right. Right. -And 30 years go by.
Nobody studies it.
And then suddenly around 2000,
a group of really dedicated researchers
who never gave up faith started bringing it back
and doing some studies
and getting really impressive results.
And-and it was when I started hearing about that
that I realized I-I've got to dig in.
Do you think that drugs
that I would... I would term as...
And, I mean, you-you probably know the, you know,
the professional classifications for them, but-but drugs
-that have been really created in a lab, you know? -Mm-hmm.
Do you think, like, those drugs--
things like fentanyl, things like cocaine, et cetera--
do you think that they have sort of tarnished
-the conversation and the imagery of psychedelics? -Yeah.
I don't think we can say in general
that if it comes from a plant, it's definitely better.
I mean, there are some pretty toxic plants,
and-and, um...
But we...
You know, it's-it's very important
to make distinctions and take each drug on its own.
-Mm-hmm. -We have this category, "illicit drugs."
Um, psychedelics are very different
than opiates, for example.
Uh, psychedelics are not addictive, believe it or not.
Um, th-they don't... They're not habit-forming.
They don't... There's no lethal dose
-for psilocybin. -But they break your habits
-to other things. -And that seems, like, ki...
counterintuitive to a lot of people,
-that you can use a drug to deal with an addiction. -Right.
Uh, but it's a nonaddictive drug
that seems to be very effective
in dealing with cigarette addiction,
alcohol addiction and cocaine addiction, uh, so far.
Um, and that's very exciting,
'cause we have very few ways to treat these things.
I-I loved how in this book...
You know, everyone loved How to Change Your Mind.
That was, for many people, their first foray
into the world of psyche-psychedelics.
This Is Your Mind on Plants. I didn't know what to expect.
But I-I loved how it was-- it was the classic Michael Pollan
of, you know, really being your guinea pig.
-You were your own test subject. -Yes. I-I am my own guinea pig.
-Which-which I love. I genuinely enjoy. -(laughs)
Um, because it's not just research-based--
it's experience-based, you know?
Well, I-I can't write about this without--
I have to write about it from the inside.
That's just the way I work.
-Um... -Are you never afraid though?
-I was terrified. I was-- I hadn't used this... -Okay. Okay.
I don't think I used-- I hadn't used a psychedelic
till I was 59.
I came very late. I'm a late bloomer.
And, um... and so, every night,
I had a series of guided
-and not guided experiences. -Right, right, right.
I went through the whole menu of psychedelics.
-Uh-huh. -F-For you, dear reader.
And, um, uh, e--
the night before every one of these days,
I was up all night. I was a wreck.
-I was s... -Yeah, I can only imagine. Because--
I don't know about you, but I was taught my whole life,
-"You take one of these things... -Yeah.
-"...and it's over for you, Trevor. -Yeah.
"You are just-- you're out in the streets.
"You're, like, robbing--
-"breaking car stereos. -Jumping off of buildings.
"Yeah, you're jumping off buildings 'cause you think
it's a pool." That's all I thought.
-I was like, "You're dying." -And that's--
I-I also ingested all those crazy ideas.
I mean, there are risks, it's important to-to stress.
But, yeah, there's a lot of urban legends
-about what psychedelics will do to you. -Right, right, right.
And so I was nervous.
And, also, you know, the self,
going into yourself to see who you are,
that's a scary place to go.
-It's terrifying. -And, um...
And I didn't know what I'd discover.
What was the thing that you learned about Michael Pollan
that you almost unlearned about yourself
-because of psychedelics? -Yeah. It's a good question.
Well, I had one experience, a guided psilocybin trip
at a very high dose,
where I experienced
the complete dissolution of my ego.
So that was a valuable teaching for me
and very surprising.
Um, and that the experience felt so good.
Because when you lose your ego,
when the walls come down,
there's nothing separating you from the world.
-Right. -And you-- and you merge with it.
And there is good evidence that a single psilocybin trip,
if you do have this ego dissolution experience,
will leave you more open than you were before.
And God knows we need more of that.
Looking at the world going forward,
um, your work has shifted many people's perspectives.
So, what do you see changing in America?
Do you see a change happening in America?
And-and what would you hope that change would be,
considering lawmakers,
the money that they get from drug companies?
'Cause this doesn't seem good for drug companies.
-No. -I would say, from my personal perspective.
Oh, you're absolutely right.
I mean, you were only going to sell one or two pills
over the course of someone's lifetime.
You don't need to do this every day.
-You can't do this every day. -Right.
Whereas the model for the pharmaceutical industry is
here is a drug you take every day for the rest of your life
-that doesn't cure you. -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
It merely helps with the symptoms.
Here, we're-we're administering an experience
that actually changes you and cures you, when it works.
And it works about two-thirds of the time.
Uh, so, it's a totally different model.
Um, I think we're on the road toward FDA approval of, uh,
-psilocybin, and MDMA-- or Ecstasy... -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
which is also sometimes considered a psychedelic.
-Right. -And it's very useful in treating trauma.
Uh, we're very quickly decriminalizing psychedelics
around the country.
When I published this, How to Change Your Mind,
I really felt there would be a lot of pushback
-from the psychiatric establishment. -Mm-hmm.
There wasn't. There was an embrace.
And the reason is-- and I learned this from talking
to some very prominent psychiatrists--
is that they know perfectly well
that the tools they have to treat mental illness stink.
-Wow. -They-they don't have...
All they have are really SSRIs
-and these antipsychotic agents... -Yeah.
...which have all sorts of side effects,
-don't really work that well. -Mm-hmm.
-SSRIs-- this is antidepressants... -Yeah. Yeah.
They only work two percentage points better than a placebo.
Um, so, they're desperate for new tools.
We have a mental health crisis in this country, in this world.
-And it got worse during COVID. -Definitely.
So there is an eagerness to do the research necessary
to prove that psychedelics can help.
And we really could be on the verge
of a revolution in mental health care.
Thank you so much for joining me on the show.
-Ah, thank you, Trevor. -I appreciate having you here.
-Thank you. -I'm a big fan. Don't forget, people.
Michael's book, This is Your Mind on Plants,
is available now. I could not recommend this enough.
We're gonna take a quick break,
but we'll be right back after this.
Well, that's our show for tonight, but before we go,
today is GLAAD's Spirit Day,
where millions of Americans wear purple
as a sign of support for LGBTQ youth
and to speak out against bullying.
So, any donations that come in today will not only be matched,
but they'll be doubled.
So if you want to help out,
please visit the link below and donate.
Until next time, stay safe out there,
get your vaccine, and remember--
if you can't make it to Hong Kong
to sleep on the bus,
try sleeping in a bed. Poo!
Now here it is-- Your Moment of Zen.
♪ ♪
I say this with respect, with all the respect I can muster,
but my advice to the president is this.
Mr. President, you just got to try harder not to suck.