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NARRATOR:
In the criminal justice system
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00:00:03,276 --> 00:00:07,224
the people are represented
by two separate
yet equally important groups,
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00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,123
the police
who investigate crime
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00:00:09,182 --> 00:00:11,958
and the district attorneys
who prosecute the offenders.
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These are their stories.
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00:00:16,122 --> 00:00:18,568
Don't bug
my neighbors, dude.
It's after 1:00 a.m.
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There's no girls
left in there.
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That's not my problem.
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Dude, go get a drink.
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All right, look,
one of them's hot.
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If you ruin
my chances with her,
I'm gonna kill you.
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Dude, it's open.
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No, don't go in there.
No. Mike.
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Mike, let's get
out of here.
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Oh, man.
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DENNIS: Cynthia Hall, 24.
Got her head bashed in.
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Looks like she was
dressed for work.
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Where's the other one?
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Back bedroom. Unis
found her when they
got to the scene.
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Susan Haley, also 24.
Roommates.
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Wow. She get it
the same way?
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Yeah. Bludgeoned.
Looks like death
was instantaneous.
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ED: Any sign of
a sexual attack?
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Not from what I saw.
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00:01:05,569 --> 00:01:07,242
What about
a time of death?
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00:01:07,304 --> 00:01:10,513
From the body temp,
I'm gonna guess within
the last three-to-six hours.
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I might be able
to run some tests
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on the blood stain
in the carpet,
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pinpoint the time
she was attacked,
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if you think that
might be helpful.
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Knock yourself out.
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Yeah, I also found this
in the living room.
Matches a set in the closet.
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The blood's all smeared.
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Doesn't look like
we're gonna get
any usable prints.
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Free weight.
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More like dead weight.
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DAMON: People started
showing up around 9:00,
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but the party didn't really
kick in until 11:00 or so.
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Those girls could've been
killed during that time.
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And nobody heard anything?
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00:02:25,781 --> 00:02:27,055
Well, the music
was pretty loud.
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I'm seeing about 20,
30 names on this list.
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Is this everybody
that was at the party?
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Best we can remember.
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Anybody on that list
you think might be
capable of this?
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Oh, man,
that would freak me out.
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What about
that guy, Grandy?
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MIKE: Well, the dude's
a complete ass,
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but, nah, I don't think
he'd do something like this.
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What you mean,
complete ass?
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DAMON: You know, older guy,
crashed the party.
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Totally wasted,
really obnoxious
to all the girls.
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When did this Grandy kid
leave the party?
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11:30 or 12:00.
He didn't stay very long.
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He said the party was
a total sausage fest,
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not enough girls.
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Yeah, I was hitting on
some of 'em, but so what?
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We heard it was
more like groping.
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These girls, man,
they can't take a joke.
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Maybe 'cause
your act ain't funny.
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So tell us
when you left the party.
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I don't know.
I was drunk.
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You got anybody
that can account
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for your whereabouts
around 11:00?
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Why you guys giving me
such a hard time?
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BRISCOE: You were drunk,
you were groping girls
in the bathroom,
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and you left early
looking to get some, right?
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Then two girls end up
killed across the hallway.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You think I did that?
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I didn't even think
that girls lived next door
to that apartment.
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What makes you
say that?
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'Cause I saw some guy
walk out of there.
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What guy?
What'd he look like?
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I don't know.
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Well, was he white, black?
Short, tall? What?
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He was a white guy.
He was, like, in his 30s.
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You know, he had
a gray shirt on
and, uh, blue pants.
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Do you remember
seeing him at the party?
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No, he wasn't at the party.
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(CELL PHONE RINGING)
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Yeah, Green.
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Think you could ID him?
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I don't know.
The guy was walking down
the stairs in front of me.
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Lennie, it's that
kid from CSU,
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he's got something
on the time of death.
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Keep working on your alibi.
And in the future,
no means no.
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According to the M.E.,
the victim was
knocked unconscious
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and bled to death.
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The autopsy showed
she lost 1.9 liters
fast and steady.
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ED: You say that
like it's a good thing.
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Oh, no. Sorry,
it's just that
it let me replicate
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the crime scene
conditions more easily.
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See, I poured 1.9 liters
of animal's blood
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on several swatches of carpet
from the victim's bedroom,
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measuring absorption levels
at five-minute intervals.
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What kind of animal?
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Pig.
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Where'd you get
pig's blood?
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Slaughterhouse.
It mimics the consistency
of human blood.
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You gotta get out more, bro.
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BRISCOE: So, how'd you know
how fast to pour it?
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I subpoenaed
her medical records.
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Uh, I got her BP
from her last physical,
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and then I took into account
the size of the laceration.
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I calculated a range of
about .1 to .2 liters
per minute.
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Good thing they didn't
scotch guard
the carpets, huh?
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Yeah. Here's the
absorption level
at three-and-a-half hours,
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00:05:00,833 --> 00:05:03,677
and here's the swatch
I took from the crime
scene at 2:17 a.m.
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Looks like we got
a winner.
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So, at 2:17 a.m., this
blood had been soaking
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in the carpet for
three-and-a-half hours?
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Yeah, give or take
15 or 20 minutes. Yeah.
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Means she got her head
knocked in around 10:45.
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When did this Grandy
leave the party?
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Cordova interviewed
all the guests.
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Three of them put him there
until at least 11:30.
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Only thing he killed
was too many beers.
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What about this guy
he mentioned?
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The unis canvassed
the rest of tenants.
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Nobody saw a thing.
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Well, how about
a doorman
or security cameras?
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Building's got
a Sentrex Security System.
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Anytime anybody's let in,
it makes a record.
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Record didn't show
that the girls buzzed
anybody up.
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Well, and there was
no sign of forced entry,
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which means that
one of the vics must have
known whoever did this.
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Also, the tox screen
shows some alcohol
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in the girl
in the business suit.
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Nothing in the other one.
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Either of these girls
have family in the area?
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Girl in the bedroom
had a sister.
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She's coming in
to ID the body.
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I can't think of anyone
Susan knew who would do this.
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00:06:01,658 --> 00:06:03,501
Did your sister
have a boyfriend?
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00:06:04,227 --> 00:06:05,638
Susan didn't date much.
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00:06:06,129 --> 00:06:07,574
ED: And what about exes?
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Junior year in college.
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But he lives somewhere
in California, I think.
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What about Cynthia?
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00:06:15,572 --> 00:06:17,074
What about her?
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00:06:17,140 --> 00:06:18,619
Well, she always
had guys over.
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Susan used to
complain about it.
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Why?
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Cynthia was into clubbing.
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Susan said these guys
were kind of sketchy,
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not the kind
you wanna bump into
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on the way to the bathroom
in the middle of the night.
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Did Susan ever mention
anybody in particular?
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No.
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It sounded like there was
a different one every weekend.
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TAGERT: Cynthia was
one of the best financial
analysts in our group.
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This is her cube.
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Has anything been moved?
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Uh, it felt pretty weird,
but the cops told us
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to leave everything
the way it is, so...
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We're trying to retrace
Cynthia's steps, uh,
after she left work.
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Do you know where she went?
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Home, I thought.
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00:07:01,383 --> 00:07:02,623
What time was that?
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00:07:02,685 --> 00:07:03,755
Around 8:30.
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There's no appointments.
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Is that the usual
quitting time around here?
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00:07:08,790 --> 00:07:10,326
Yeah, pretty much.
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Hey, Matt, does the bank
provide a car service?
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00:07:13,761 --> 00:07:15,968
Yeah. Yeah, after 8:00.
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The dispatcher says
your pick-up was at 8:20.
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00:07:20,668 --> 00:07:22,579
That's what he says.
I don't really remember.
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00:07:22,637 --> 00:07:24,548
Do you remember
where you went?
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Says here I dropped her off
at East 83rd Street at 9:05.
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Took you 45 minutes
to get uptown?
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00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,385
She's the one who
wrote down the address.
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That's not what
he asked you.
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Look, I know I'm supposed
to take them home.
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ED: But?
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She gave me 20 bucks,
asked me to take her
to Williamsburg.
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Where in Williamsburg?
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00:07:49,030 --> 00:07:51,305
Between Bedford
and Clinton. Near 7th.
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It's not my fault
she got killed though, right?
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00:07:55,502 --> 00:07:57,607
We'll get back
to you on that.
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00:08:01,542 --> 00:08:04,284
So, you think she went
to the bolt factory
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00:08:04,344 --> 00:08:06,221
or the box warehouse?
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00:08:07,381 --> 00:08:09,156
Hey, check that out.
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00:08:10,851 --> 00:08:13,092
Hey, yo! Hold up!
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00:08:14,888 --> 00:08:16,629
Hey! Police!
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00:08:16,690 --> 00:08:17,862
Come here.
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00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:20,568
What? You scared
I'm gonna mug you
or something?
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00:08:20,627 --> 00:08:22,607
Oh, we didn't know
who you were, you know.
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00:08:22,663 --> 00:08:23,767
Where were you
coming from?
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00:08:23,864 --> 00:08:25,844
There's an after-hours
club down there.
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00:08:25,899 --> 00:08:28,209
After what hours?
It's 10:00 in the morning.
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00:08:29,570 --> 00:08:31,276
All right, man,
get out of here.
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00:08:33,139 --> 00:08:35,779
Yeah, it's too bad
about Cynthia.
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00:08:36,242 --> 00:08:37,812
Used to come
to the club a lot.
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00:08:37,944 --> 00:08:39,184
How about
two nights ago?
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00:08:39,245 --> 00:08:41,156
Ah, nights kind of
bleed together, you know?
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00:08:41,214 --> 00:08:42,591
Poor choice of words, pal.
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00:08:42,648 --> 00:08:45,128
Car service says
they dropped her
off here at 9:00.
198
00:08:45,184 --> 00:08:46,390
We're pretty dead.
199
00:08:46,852 --> 00:08:48,559
I mean, empty,
at 9:00, you know.
200
00:08:48,921 --> 00:08:51,959
So, what was she doing here?
Helping you cut up limes?
201
00:08:53,292 --> 00:08:56,671
Look, man, I'm getting
a contact high from
all the fumes up in here.
202
00:08:57,163 --> 00:08:58,608
You want us
to take this place apart?
203
00:09:00,766 --> 00:09:03,474
Look, I don't sell,
all right?
204
00:09:04,537 --> 00:09:06,414
Her friend was coming by
and wanted me to
hook him up
205
00:09:06,472 --> 00:09:08,782
with a number to call
and score a few grams
of heroin.
206
00:09:09,408 --> 00:09:11,944
All right, bro,
we need that number.
207
00:09:12,611 --> 00:09:13,885
Who's this friend?
208
00:09:13,945 --> 00:09:17,051
Uh, red hair,
maybe early 30s.
209
00:09:17,215 --> 00:09:18,751
He have a name?
210
00:09:18,950 --> 00:09:20,691
I think she said
she worked for him.
211
00:09:23,922 --> 00:09:26,766
Matt, we need
to talk to you.
212
00:09:27,292 --> 00:09:29,033
Uh, we're just about
to take her to day care.
213
00:09:29,094 --> 00:09:31,301
BRISCOE: Why don't you
let them go on ahead.
You can catch up.
214
00:09:31,730 --> 00:09:32,936
Matt?
No. It's okay.
215
00:09:33,198 --> 00:09:35,178
They just need to
talk to me
about Cynthia Hall.
216
00:09:35,433 --> 00:09:37,106
You guys go ahead.
I'll be right there.
217
00:09:43,341 --> 00:09:46,049
You told us the last time
that you saw her,
she was leaving work.
218
00:09:46,111 --> 00:09:48,022
But you forgot
to tell us that you
met up with her later.
219
00:09:48,079 --> 00:09:51,583
You also forgot to
mention her hooking you
up with some smack.
220
00:09:51,783 --> 00:09:53,955
Now, your connection
has an alibi for
the whole night.
221
00:09:54,018 --> 00:09:55,554
What about you?
222
00:09:55,919 --> 00:09:57,125
Do I need a lawyer here?
223
00:09:57,388 --> 00:09:59,299
Yeah, if your wife finds out.
224
00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:00,892
Other than that,
we're not sure.
225
00:10:00,991 --> 00:10:02,527
Look, Cynthia
was my friend.
226
00:10:02,593 --> 00:10:05,199
If I knew anything about
what happened to her,
I would've told you about it.
227
00:10:05,262 --> 00:10:06,570
You know, I kind of
doubt that, seeing as
228
00:10:06,630 --> 00:10:08,075
how you lied to us
once already.
229
00:10:08,132 --> 00:10:10,442
Look, if anybody finds out
about the drugs,
230
00:10:10,501 --> 00:10:11,844
that could be
the end of my career.
231
00:10:12,136 --> 00:10:15,242
Well, we can think of
the one person
who won't blab.
232
00:10:17,207 --> 00:10:19,619
Look, Cynthia and I
used to party together,
but that's all.
233
00:10:19,877 --> 00:10:22,323
So you two score
some drugs, you go back
to her place, is that it?
234
00:10:22,546 --> 00:10:24,025
Her place? No.
235
00:10:25,382 --> 00:10:27,259
No. After that,
we went to another bar.
236
00:10:27,484 --> 00:10:29,020
BRISCOE: Until what time?
237
00:10:29,086 --> 00:10:30,087
A little after 11:00.
238
00:10:30,688 --> 00:10:31,826
Think again, kid.
239
00:10:31,889 --> 00:10:33,424
Cynthia was already
dead by 11:00.
240
00:10:33,890 --> 00:10:35,733
We were at that bar
until at least 11:00.
241
00:10:36,459 --> 00:10:38,097
More than 20 people
saw us there.
242
00:10:45,068 --> 00:10:47,241
According to Tagert's
credit card record,
243
00:10:47,303 --> 00:10:49,909
he paid their
bar bill at 11:17.
244
00:10:49,972 --> 00:10:52,077
At least 10 people
saw them leave together.
245
00:10:52,141 --> 00:10:56,453
I thought CSU narrowed down
the time of death to 10:45?
246
00:10:56,512 --> 00:10:59,823
No. His calculations
were based only
on the girl in the bedroom.
247
00:10:59,882 --> 00:11:02,488
Now, if you figure in
the time it took
Cynthia to get home,
248
00:11:02,552 --> 00:11:04,759
those girls died
over an hour apart.
249
00:11:04,854 --> 00:11:08,700
So, whoever did this
was already there
when Cynthia Hall came home.
250
00:11:08,758 --> 00:11:10,829
Yup. And Susan Haley
was already dead.
251
00:11:10,893 --> 00:11:12,395
And that pretty much
puts Tagert
252
00:11:12,462 --> 00:11:14,202
and the other kid, Grandy,
in the clear.
253
00:11:14,262 --> 00:11:16,208
And us out of suspects.
254
00:11:16,264 --> 00:11:18,676
Well, what about
this guy who was seen
leaving the apartment?
255
00:11:18,734 --> 00:11:21,772
If he's for real, he got
in that building somehow.
256
00:11:21,837 --> 00:11:23,839
So, let's focus on access.
257
00:11:24,606 --> 00:11:27,678
Maybe he piggy-backed
off somebody else
who got buzzed in.
258
00:11:28,043 --> 00:11:30,580
Yeah, except Grandy's
the only one that
remembers seeing him.
259
00:11:31,713 --> 00:11:33,624
Then we need to track down
everybody who was
260
00:11:33,682 --> 00:11:36,424
buzzed into that building
before 10:45.
261
00:11:36,485 --> 00:11:40,023
Look, if you have
a better idea,
I'll be in my office.
262
00:11:41,923 --> 00:11:44,836
Two uniform cops already
asked us about that night.
263
00:11:44,893 --> 00:11:46,133
They spoke to my wife.
264
00:11:46,194 --> 00:11:48,367
We're re-interviewing
everybody in the building.
265
00:11:48,463 --> 00:11:49,840
We just have
a few more questions.
266
00:11:49,898 --> 00:11:52,708
You ask me, they ought
to ban those kids
from having parties.
267
00:11:53,335 --> 00:11:56,076
The drugs,
all that noise,
and now this.
268
00:11:56,270 --> 00:11:58,580
Mr. Rothchild, according
to the security report,
269
00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:01,415
you buzzed somebody
into the building
at 10:08 p.m.
270
00:12:01,475 --> 00:12:03,352
That was me.
I forgot my keys.
271
00:12:03,410 --> 00:12:04,616
You buzzed yourself in?
272
00:12:04,678 --> 00:12:08,148
No, uh, my wife.
See, she's gotta have
that lactose-free milk,
273
00:12:08,215 --> 00:12:12,163
and I gotta walk out
in the middle of the night,
five blocks to the deli.
274
00:12:12,219 --> 00:12:15,098
Why she can't remember
to get it herself
in the daytime!
275
00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:17,932
But did you happen to let
somebody in the building
when you came in?
276
00:12:18,125 --> 00:12:20,332
I never let in nobody
I don't recognize.
277
00:12:20,795 --> 00:12:22,832
Did you ever notice
anybody hanging around
278
00:12:22,897 --> 00:12:25,673
wearing a gray shirt
and blue pants?
279
00:12:25,833 --> 00:12:27,574
Gray shirt and blue pants?
280
00:12:27,768 --> 00:12:29,406
You mean like a uniform?
281
00:12:29,470 --> 00:12:33,043
I saw one of those guys
coming out of that apartment
a few weeks ago.
282
00:12:33,174 --> 00:12:36,586
In the daytime.
I thought they were
spraying for roaches.
283
00:12:37,444 --> 00:12:41,119
The old man's mixed up.
I use an outside service
for pest control.
284
00:12:41,181 --> 00:12:42,421
Well, when do they come?
285
00:12:42,482 --> 00:12:43,893
Third Thursday every month.
286
00:12:43,950 --> 00:12:45,827
Tenants sign up
if they want it.
287
00:12:45,885 --> 00:12:47,956
But neither of
those girls did.
288
00:12:48,121 --> 00:12:50,032
Well, what if one of
your crew needs
to fix something,
289
00:12:50,089 --> 00:12:51,625
how do they get in?
290
00:12:51,791 --> 00:12:54,032
I let them in.
I'm the only one with keys.
291
00:12:54,093 --> 00:12:56,095
Wait, there are no spares?
292
00:12:56,162 --> 00:12:58,335
Sometimes the tenants
make extras,
293
00:12:58,398 --> 00:13:00,275
but they turn them in
when they move out.
294
00:13:00,333 --> 00:13:02,779
So, how do these guys
lock up after
they're through?
295
00:13:03,836 --> 00:13:07,181
I might give them a key,
but just for the day.
Then, I get it back.
296
00:13:08,007 --> 00:13:09,509
I'm real strict about this.
297
00:13:10,043 --> 00:13:11,522
We're gonna need
the names of anybody
298
00:13:11,578 --> 00:13:13,888
that's worked in
that apartment in
the past few months. Okay?
299
00:13:18,350 --> 00:13:22,230
BRISCOE: Gee, Serge,
you're even prettier in person
than in your arrest photo.
300
00:13:22,287 --> 00:13:23,960
I got nothing to do
with those girls.
301
00:13:24,022 --> 00:13:25,592
Yeah, well,
your assault charge
302
00:13:25,657 --> 00:13:27,500
tells us that you're
a little prone to violence.
303
00:13:28,260 --> 00:13:30,331
A loudmouthed Islander fan.
304
00:13:31,029 --> 00:13:32,167
Practically self-defense.
305
00:13:32,231 --> 00:13:33,767
The super also says that
306
00:13:33,832 --> 00:13:36,005
you were in those
girls' apartment
a few months back.
307
00:13:36,068 --> 00:13:38,048
They had a broken
cabinet in the kitchen.
308
00:13:38,103 --> 00:13:39,480
He says
he gave you a key.
309
00:13:39,538 --> 00:13:41,518
And I gave it back,
same day.
310
00:13:41,573 --> 00:13:44,611
Well, we have a witness
that saw somebody
dressed like you
311
00:13:44,676 --> 00:13:46,815
leaving the apartment
the night
those girls were killed.
312
00:13:47,179 --> 00:13:48,317
No. I left work at 5:00.
313
00:13:49,314 --> 00:13:50,418
I was home all night.
314
00:13:50,515 --> 00:13:52,222
You got anybody
that can vouch for that?
315
00:13:52,284 --> 00:13:54,389
I don't know.
Uh, a neighbor,
316
00:13:54,453 --> 00:13:56,763
somebody, maybe,
saw me. I live alone.
317
00:13:57,455 --> 00:13:59,093
You better be
telling the truth, Serge,
318
00:13:59,156 --> 00:14:01,500
or you're gonna be
fixing sinks at Attica.
319
00:14:05,329 --> 00:14:07,309
I love it when they
don't have an alibi.
320
00:14:07,365 --> 00:14:09,470
He could've made
a copy of that key
during his lunch break.
321
00:14:09,534 --> 00:14:12,640
We can run his
arrest photo with
the local hardware stores.
322
00:14:14,372 --> 00:14:15,715
Sorry,
I don't recognize him.
323
00:14:15,773 --> 00:14:17,275
He works around here.
We're just
trying to figure out
324
00:14:17,341 --> 00:14:18,843
if he made a copy
of a key.
325
00:14:20,878 --> 00:14:22,152
Says, "Do not duplicate."
326
00:14:22,213 --> 00:14:24,250
Well, from the last
four places we've been,
327
00:14:24,315 --> 00:14:26,317
we get the feeling
that's just a suggestion.
328
00:14:27,385 --> 00:14:29,797
Couldn't tell you
if it's one of ours.
We don't keep records.
329
00:14:30,521 --> 00:14:33,331
Ed. Gray shirt,
blue pants.
330
00:14:33,624 --> 00:14:37,299
Remember the super said
sometimes the tenants make
extra sets for themselves.
331
00:14:37,361 --> 00:14:39,033
Are you the only one
that makes
copies of the keys?
332
00:14:39,229 --> 00:14:40,833
My nephew helps out part-time.
333
00:14:41,131 --> 00:14:42,132
BRISCOE: Is he here now?
334
00:14:42,198 --> 00:14:44,542
Just weekends.
But he's not gonna
remember either.
335
00:14:44,601 --> 00:14:46,478
Like I said,
we make a lot of keys.
336
00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:49,148
Well, we still
need to talk to him.
Now?
337
00:14:49,205 --> 00:14:50,445
Yeah, now.
338
00:14:53,877 --> 00:14:54,947
MRS. HOBBS: He just left.
339
00:14:55,011 --> 00:14:56,251
ED: He knew
we were coming.
340
00:14:56,313 --> 00:14:58,224
No. He said
he had to go out.
341
00:14:58,281 --> 00:14:59,589
You mind if we
take a look around?
342
00:14:59,649 --> 00:15:00,923
Oh, okay.
343
00:15:03,053 --> 00:15:05,055
Is Raymond okay?
344
00:15:06,089 --> 00:15:08,399
My son didn't do
anything wrong.
345
00:15:08,692 --> 00:15:10,467
ED: Lennie, in here.
346
00:15:21,136 --> 00:15:22,410
Lennie, check this out.
347
00:15:28,277 --> 00:15:30,484
BRISCOE:
The Yorkville break-in.
348
00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:33,326
And another break-in.
349
00:15:33,616 --> 00:15:35,323
Looks like
our boy's been busy.
350
00:15:36,051 --> 00:15:37,086
What is it?
351
00:15:39,021 --> 00:15:42,127
I think you better come
with us, Mrs. Hobbs.
For your own safety.
352
00:15:42,992 --> 00:15:45,871
Safety? Who should
I be afraid of?
353
00:15:46,962 --> 00:15:49,306
He's Raymond Hobbs.
His uncle that owns
the hardware store
354
00:15:49,365 --> 00:15:51,504
says that he's quiet
and he keeps to himself.
355
00:15:52,401 --> 00:15:53,846
And he lives
with his mother.
356
00:15:53,902 --> 00:15:57,679
Hmm. Don't they all.
What about these
other break-ins?
357
00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:00,117
We're running 'em down.
According to the 61s,
358
00:16:00,174 --> 00:16:03,018
he'd watch 'em sleep,
go through their
underwear drawer.
359
00:16:03,444 --> 00:16:05,390
"I heard
loud breathing.
360
00:16:05,446 --> 00:16:07,483
"I woke up
and he was in the room."
361
00:16:07,715 --> 00:16:10,525
Charming.
Did any of the girls ID him?
362
00:16:10,585 --> 00:16:13,088
No, it always
happened at night.
They'd wake up, he'd bolt.
363
00:16:13,154 --> 00:16:16,363
Well, not this time.
What are we doing
to find this wacko?
364
00:16:16,424 --> 00:16:19,837
We've got unis canvassing
all the places his mother
says he hangs out.
365
00:16:19,894 --> 00:16:20,998
She's co-operating?
366
00:16:21,062 --> 00:16:22,769
Yeah, she wants
her son safe.
367
00:16:22,830 --> 00:16:25,674
Lieutenant,
two uniforms spotted Hobbs,
and he took off.
368
00:16:25,733 --> 00:16:27,371
He's got a female hostage
in a drugstore.
369
00:16:30,304 --> 00:16:32,875
I chased him
a couple of blocks, but
I lost him around the corner.
370
00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:34,817
Next thing,
all the customers started
pouring out of the store,
371
00:16:34,876 --> 00:16:36,878
saying this guy's
got a knife to
some woman's throat.
372
00:16:37,345 --> 00:16:38,483
Is he still in there?
373
00:16:38,546 --> 00:16:40,547
Crouched in the third aisle.
Tough to get a clear line.
374
00:16:40,614 --> 00:16:42,389
We get anyone in
to talk with him yet?
375
00:16:42,449 --> 00:16:43,655
Yeah, Captain Bolland, HNT.
376
00:16:43,717 --> 00:16:44,923
He's been in there
10 minutes now.
377
00:16:45,052 --> 00:16:47,328
Is there anybody
in the store besides Hobbs
and the one hostage?
378
00:16:47,387 --> 00:16:48,593
Well, not as far as we know.
379
00:16:50,190 --> 00:16:51,931
Hostage negotiator
coming out.
380
00:16:52,192 --> 00:16:54,934
OFFICER 1 ON SPEAKER:
Hold your fire.
Hostage negotiator coming out
381
00:16:54,995 --> 00:16:56,065
Hold your fire.
382
00:16:56,129 --> 00:16:57,164
OFFICER 2: Hold your fire!
383
00:16:59,399 --> 00:17:00,571
I'm alone.
384
00:17:02,736 --> 00:17:06,115
Lieutenant Van Buren,
Detectives Briscoe
and Green from the 27.
385
00:17:06,173 --> 00:17:07,243
How's the hostage?
386
00:17:07,307 --> 00:17:09,287
Okay for now,
but I can't get
through to this guy.
387
00:17:09,342 --> 00:17:11,049
Either of you have
any prior contact
with him?
388
00:17:11,111 --> 00:17:13,318
By the time
we got to his house,
he'd already split.
389
00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:15,223
What about bringing
his mother down here?
390
00:17:15,282 --> 00:17:16,693
She could make things worse.
391
00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:18,093
BRISCOE: How worse
can they get?
392
00:17:18,151 --> 00:17:19,255
He's asking for a lawyer.
393
00:17:19,486 --> 00:17:20,964
And if he doesn't get one?
394
00:17:22,088 --> 00:17:23,897
He's gonna kill the hostage.
395
00:17:30,162 --> 00:17:32,267
This is A.D.A. Southerlyn.
396
00:17:32,364 --> 00:17:33,502
SERENA: What's the situation?
397
00:17:33,566 --> 00:17:35,170
Subject has
one female hostage.
398
00:17:35,234 --> 00:17:36,406
He's holding her
at knifepoint.
399
00:17:36,469 --> 00:17:38,915
ESU wants to take him out
if they can line up a shot.
400
00:17:38,971 --> 00:17:41,076
They wanted a D.A.
down here to observe.
401
00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:43,211
I was told he asked
for a lawyer.
Did he get one?
402
00:17:43,542 --> 00:17:44,850
Can't risk another civilian.
403
00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:47,857
Besides, who knows
what some legal aid
lawyer might cook up.
404
00:17:48,414 --> 00:17:50,587
Why not send in
one of your
officers undercover?
405
00:17:50,649 --> 00:17:52,492
Look, if he was smart enough
to ask for a lawyer,
406
00:17:52,551 --> 00:17:53,825
he might be
too smart for that.
407
00:17:54,353 --> 00:17:56,230
The subject just moved
We've got
a clear line of fire.
408
00:17:56,288 --> 00:17:57,460
Can we take the shot?
409
00:17:57,723 --> 00:18:00,067
Wait. What if I go?
410
00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:01,560
Go where?
411
00:18:01,627 --> 00:18:03,902
He asked for a lawyer
Let me talk to him.
412
00:18:04,028 --> 00:18:05,974
I can't let you
do that, Serena.
413
00:18:06,030 --> 00:18:08,943
It's better than him
killing the hostage
or you killing him, isn't it?
414
00:18:15,507 --> 00:18:17,214
Keep him calm.
Never say no.
415
00:18:17,275 --> 00:18:19,050
Speak in terms of
possibilities.
416
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:20,453
What if I get him
to surrender?
417
00:18:20,512 --> 00:18:23,425
Have him lie on the floor,
put his hands behind his head.
418
00:18:23,481 --> 00:18:24,721
That's best for everybody.
419
00:18:24,783 --> 00:18:26,057
What about the knife?
420
00:18:26,251 --> 00:18:27,491
Never take it from his hand.
421
00:18:27,552 --> 00:18:29,657
Tell him to put it
on the floor
and kick it to you.
422
00:18:29,721 --> 00:18:31,598
But if he charges you,
put your hands up,
423
00:18:31,656 --> 00:18:32,896
protect your face
and your neck.
424
00:18:32,957 --> 00:18:34,436
Kevlar should
protect the rest.
425
00:18:38,863 --> 00:18:40,638
RAYMOND: (SCREAMING)
Don't come in here!
426
00:18:58,515 --> 00:18:59,926
Who are you?
427
00:19:01,985 --> 00:19:03,191
You asked for a lawyer.
428
00:19:04,955 --> 00:19:07,367
Yeah? I want you
to prove it.
429
00:19:07,858 --> 00:19:09,132
Prove it!
430
00:19:10,661 --> 00:19:13,574
This is my driver's license
and my bar association card.
431
00:19:17,568 --> 00:19:18,672
Are you okay?
432
00:19:18,735 --> 00:19:21,306
Don't talk to her!
Talk to me! Okay?
433
00:19:21,405 --> 00:19:22,907
Okay. Okay.
434
00:19:22,973 --> 00:19:24,815
I'm talking to you.
435
00:19:38,054 --> 00:19:40,728
How many...
How many cops
are out there?
436
00:19:42,925 --> 00:19:43,995
I'm not sure.
437
00:19:45,027 --> 00:19:46,370
They wanna kill me.
438
00:19:46,429 --> 00:19:49,000
No. They don't want
anybody getting hurt.
Including you.
439
00:19:49,065 --> 00:19:51,909
No,no,no.They“
They think that
I killed those girls.
440
00:19:52,602 --> 00:19:53,876
I don't know what they think.
441
00:19:53,936 --> 00:19:57,349
If they didn't,
why else would they
come looking for me?
442
00:19:57,406 --> 00:19:59,784
Sometimes police
make mistakes.
It's always a possibility.
443
00:20:06,147 --> 00:20:09,720
Look, I didn't
want to hurt them.
444
00:20:09,818 --> 00:20:11,320
I didn't want to
hurt them, okay?
445
00:20:11,987 --> 00:20:14,399
It just happened.
It just happened.
446
00:20:14,689 --> 00:20:16,032
And everyone's gonna
understand that.
447
00:20:16,091 --> 00:20:18,435
You're gonna explain
that to them, right?
448
00:20:18,493 --> 00:20:20,666
You're gonna explain
that to them right?
449
00:20:20,729 --> 00:20:22,037
Yes, I will.
450
00:20:24,466 --> 00:20:26,002
What if they don't
believe you?
451
00:20:26,268 --> 00:20:27,838
Well, we're getting
ahead of ourselves
452
00:20:27,903 --> 00:20:31,715
because first you're gonna
have to let this woman go,
453
00:20:31,773 --> 00:20:33,309
and then I can help you.
454
00:20:42,717 --> 00:20:45,094
I promise
I won't let them hurt you.
455
00:20:48,455 --> 00:20:52,028
Now, just put the knife
on the floor.
456
00:20:52,726 --> 00:20:54,501
Put the knife on the floor.
457
00:21:01,468 --> 00:21:02,776
(KNIFE CLATTERING)
458
00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:04,543
SERENA: Ma'am, why don't
you just walk toward me.
459
00:21:04,605 --> 00:21:07,518
And just keep on going,
just keep going.
460
00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:11,319
Please help...
Please help me.
461
00:21:11,378 --> 00:21:12,914
Down! Down!
Down on the floor!
462
00:21:12,980 --> 00:21:14,755
Don't let them hurt me!
463
00:21:14,815 --> 00:21:16,988
Help me! Please,
don't let them hurt me!
Hands behind your head!
464
00:21:17,051 --> 00:21:19,429
(SOBBING) Don't let them
hurt me! Please...
Don't move!
465
00:21:19,486 --> 00:21:20,658
(SPEAKING INCOHERENTLY)
466
00:21:21,488 --> 00:21:23,126
Nice job, Counselor.
467
00:21:33,866 --> 00:21:35,402
JACK: Are you sure
you're okay?
468
00:21:35,468 --> 00:21:36,674
Just a little shaky still.
469
00:21:36,803 --> 00:21:38,305
She was great.
470
00:21:39,939 --> 00:21:41,111
Where's Hobbs now?
471
00:21:41,274 --> 00:21:43,413
Briscoe's walking him
through central booking.
472
00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:45,687
Is he gonna plead insanity
at arraignment?
473
00:21:45,745 --> 00:21:48,487
He seemed to understand
the nature and consequences
of his actions.
474
00:21:48,614 --> 00:21:50,491
He kept a scrapbook
of similar break-ins,
475
00:21:50,550 --> 00:21:52,996
and just about every
clipping that was written
on the double slayings.
476
00:21:53,052 --> 00:21:56,363
Apparently, Hobbs
would duplicate keys
for young women
477
00:21:56,422 --> 00:21:58,424
who came into
the neighborhood
hardware store,
478
00:21:58,491 --> 00:22:00,767
and then enter
their apartments when
they weren't at home.
479
00:22:00,827 --> 00:22:01,965
What about here?
480
00:22:02,028 --> 00:22:04,702
Susan Haley must have
caught him and he reacted.
481
00:22:04,764 --> 00:22:06,834
Why stick around
over an hour,
482
00:22:06,898 --> 00:22:07,933
kill the roommate?
483
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,344
Well, there was a party
that was going on
across the hall
484
00:22:10,402 --> 00:22:11,972
that spilled out
into the corridor.
485
00:22:12,037 --> 00:22:13,607
There were kids
coming and going,
he was trapped.
486
00:22:13,672 --> 00:22:15,743
And we figured once
he murdered the second girl,
487
00:22:15,807 --> 00:22:17,047
he had to chance it.
488
00:22:17,843 --> 00:22:19,914
Anyone place Hobbs
at the murder scene?
489
00:22:19,978 --> 00:22:22,822
We have a witness
we think saw him
leave the apartment.
490
00:22:22,881 --> 00:22:24,189
I've already set up
the line-up.
491
00:22:24,816 --> 00:22:26,352
Keep me posted.
492
00:22:30,822 --> 00:22:32,130
FERNANDS: Has anyone
spoken with him?
493
00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:34,227
No one's said anything
to influence the witness.
494
00:22:34,326 --> 00:22:35,532
Just checking.
495
00:22:35,594 --> 00:22:38,131
You've already thrown
some sharp elbows
on this one.
496
00:22:38,563 --> 00:22:39,633
"Sharp elbows"?
497
00:22:39,698 --> 00:22:42,577
For some reason
my client seems to think
that you were his lawyer.
498
00:22:43,101 --> 00:22:44,978
At first,
I couldn't understand why
a defendant would think
499
00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:47,414
he was being represented
by a district attorney.
500
00:22:47,638 --> 00:22:48,946
Mr. Hobbs asked for a lawyer.
501
00:22:49,006 --> 00:22:51,384
If he made
certain assumptions,
that's not my concern.
502
00:22:51,942 --> 00:22:54,752
Mr. Grandy, this is
a one-way mirror.
503
00:22:55,946 --> 00:22:58,324
You'll see five men,
but they won't see you.
504
00:23:08,926 --> 00:23:11,167
Do any of these men
look familiar?
505
00:23:12,763 --> 00:23:16,233
GRANDY: Uh, yeah.
The guy that I saw
coming out of the apartment,
506
00:23:16,901 --> 00:23:18,881
he could be number four.
507
00:23:18,969 --> 00:23:19,970
"Could be"?
508
00:23:20,304 --> 00:23:21,942
Yeah. I told the cops,
509
00:23:22,006 --> 00:23:23,883
I pretty much saw
the guy from behind, so...
510
00:23:24,875 --> 00:23:26,513
VAN BUREN:
Thank you for your time.
511
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:30,991
Strike one.
Here's two and three.
512
00:23:35,452 --> 00:23:37,261
Motions to suppress
Hobbs' statements
513
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,231
and the evidence
found in his apartment.
514
00:23:39,355 --> 00:23:41,665
I thought Briscoe and Green
had the mother's consent.
515
00:23:41,925 --> 00:23:44,201
Well, Fernande
is arguing
relevance instead.
516
00:23:45,528 --> 00:23:46,563
And the statements?
517
00:23:46,963 --> 00:23:48,943
She contends that
I talked to Hobbs
518
00:23:48,998 --> 00:23:50,807
without giving him
Miranda first.
519
00:23:51,701 --> 00:23:53,612
The armed ESU team
outside the store
520
00:23:53,670 --> 00:23:55,308
makes this
a custodial situation.
521
00:23:55,371 --> 00:23:57,851
But I doubt Miranda applies
to hostage takings.
522
00:23:58,041 --> 00:24:00,021
That's just what
the defense will argue.
523
00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:01,282
SERENA: It wasn't
an interrogation.
524
00:24:01,344 --> 00:24:03,881
Nothing I said was
designed to get Hobbs
to incriminate himself.
525
00:24:03,947 --> 00:24:05,290
I was very careful.
526
00:24:05,348 --> 00:24:06,691
That may be the problem.
527
00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:09,696
That you were concerned
whether Hobbs' statements
would be admissible
528
00:24:09,752 --> 00:24:11,390
suggests you wanted him
to make them.
529
00:24:13,222 --> 00:24:14,860
I'll go research
custodial situations.
530
00:24:14,923 --> 00:24:16,925
You have to withdraw
from the case, Serena.
531
00:24:19,895 --> 00:24:21,431
I can't even second chair?
532
00:24:21,597 --> 00:24:24,203
You can't prosecute him
if you're testifying
against him.
533
00:24:31,373 --> 00:24:35,287
Up first, the evidence found
in the defendant's apartment.
534
00:24:35,477 --> 00:24:36,785
Newspaper clippings.
535
00:24:36,845 --> 00:24:38,984
Apparently Mr. Hobbs
has a propensity
536
00:24:39,047 --> 00:24:41,391
for entering young
women's apartments
without their permission.
537
00:24:41,517 --> 00:24:43,758
Or a morbid fascination
with people who do.
538
00:24:43,819 --> 00:24:45,628
Argue what you want
in front of a jury,
539
00:24:45,687 --> 00:24:47,997
but under Molineux,
I can establish
intent and pattern
540
00:24:48,056 --> 00:24:49,933
using evidence of
uncharged crimes.
541
00:24:49,991 --> 00:24:52,062
Clipping newspaper articles
isn't a crime.
542
00:24:52,126 --> 00:24:53,230
But stalking is.
543
00:24:53,294 --> 00:24:56,104
We believe those clippings
relate to break-ins
Mr. Hobbs committed.
544
00:24:56,164 --> 00:24:57,939
Key word being "believe,"
Your Honor.
545
00:24:58,566 --> 00:25:00,307
I agree.
546
00:25:00,368 --> 00:25:02,348
I can't allow evidence
of other crimes
547
00:25:02,403 --> 00:25:05,509
when I'm not satisfied
that the defendant did,
in fact, commit them.
548
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,178
What's next?
549
00:25:07,241 --> 00:25:09,482
Mr. Hobbs' statement,
Your Honor.
What about it?
550
00:25:09,544 --> 00:25:11,785
It was taken in violation
of his Sixth Amendment right.
551
00:25:11,879 --> 00:25:13,358
He requested an attorney.
552
00:25:13,648 --> 00:25:15,321
That request was
made at knifepoint.
553
00:25:15,383 --> 00:25:17,192
There's no knifepoint
exception to Miranda.
554
00:25:17,251 --> 00:25:20,960
Once a person asks
for an attorney,
all interrogation must cease.
555
00:25:21,055 --> 00:25:23,467
JACK: Mr. Hobbs
was not subject
to interrogation.
556
00:25:23,691 --> 00:25:26,001
He asks for a lawyer,
and the police
send in a prosecutor.
557
00:25:26,060 --> 00:25:27,130
What would you call it?
558
00:25:27,194 --> 00:25:28,298
Heroic.
559
00:25:28,362 --> 00:25:30,308
Well, that may be,
Mr. McCoy,
560
00:25:30,364 --> 00:25:34,334
but the defendant
did request counsel prior
to making the statement.
561
00:25:35,235 --> 00:25:38,148
Now, I'm not going
to allow someone
pretending to be his lawyer
562
00:25:38,204 --> 00:25:40,184
to tell the jury
what he said.
563
00:25:40,273 --> 00:25:43,152
Then, let the hostage testify.
She was there, too.
564
00:25:45,612 --> 00:25:49,526
So, even assuming
a right to counsel
did attach,
565
00:25:49,583 --> 00:25:52,291
the presence of this
other woman destroyed
566
00:25:52,352 --> 00:25:54,195
whatever privilege
may have existed.
567
00:25:54,254 --> 00:25:57,633
Judge, if you allow that,
you'd be permitting
an end-run around Miranda.
568
00:25:57,691 --> 00:26:00,137
Miranda doesn't
apply to civilians
like Mrs. Williams.
569
00:26:00,193 --> 00:26:03,072
Besides, the state didn't
place her in that store,
570
00:26:03,129 --> 00:26:04,335
Mr. Hobbs did.
571
00:26:05,298 --> 00:26:09,542
He's right, Ms. Fernande.
If the hostage's testimony
572
00:26:09,603 --> 00:26:12,640
provides your client's
undoing, he has
only himself to blame.
573
00:26:13,872 --> 00:26:16,352
But I want to hear
her version before
I make my ruling.
574
00:26:20,346 --> 00:26:21,757
She doesn't sleep.
575
00:26:22,581 --> 00:26:24,686
She closes her eyes
and she sees him.
576
00:26:25,251 --> 00:26:27,527
That's all she remembers,
the look on that man's face.
577
00:26:29,188 --> 00:26:31,566
I can understand
how frightening
this must have been.
578
00:26:33,192 --> 00:26:35,604
But your wife's
the only option we have left.
579
00:26:35,928 --> 00:26:38,431
What if she testifies
and he still goes free?
580
00:26:38,564 --> 00:26:40,805
I don't think
that's likely to happen.
581
00:26:41,333 --> 00:26:44,337
All you have to do
is tell this judge
what he said, Mrs. Williams.
582
00:26:45,771 --> 00:26:47,842
The lawyer who
came in to help you
583
00:26:47,907 --> 00:26:50,080
told me how strong
you were in that store.
584
00:26:50,142 --> 00:26:52,985
How you kept calm,
even with a knife
at your throat.
585
00:26:53,478 --> 00:26:54,650
She can't.
586
00:26:54,712 --> 00:26:55,918
No.
587
00:26:57,081 --> 00:27:00,153
He's right. This woman
risked her life for me.
588
00:27:00,885 --> 00:27:02,660
I've got to try.
589
00:27:07,959 --> 00:27:11,133
MRS. WILLIAMS: The man said
that the police think
he killed those two girls.
590
00:27:11,629 --> 00:27:15,202
Then, the woman lawyer
told him that maybe
the police made a mistake.
591
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:16,608
JACK: What did he say then?
592
00:27:16,668 --> 00:27:19,649
He said he didn't mean
to hurt them.
That it just happened.
593
00:27:19,704 --> 00:27:22,742
And what did you
understand him
to be referring to?
594
00:27:22,807 --> 00:27:23,808
Objection.
595
00:27:25,109 --> 00:27:26,383
You can answer that.
596
00:27:29,180 --> 00:27:30,591
Killing those two girls.
597
00:27:31,115 --> 00:27:32,492
Why did you think that?
598
00:27:33,184 --> 00:27:36,323
Because the man asked
this lawyer to explain
599
00:27:36,386 --> 00:27:37,865
what happened for him.
600
00:27:38,422 --> 00:27:40,095
What happened with him
and those girls.
601
00:27:41,925 --> 00:27:43,734
Thank you.
Nothing further.
602
00:27:51,868 --> 00:27:55,873
Did my client actually say
he killed those two women?
603
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,078
He didn't use
those words, no.
604
00:27:58,475 --> 00:28:01,786
So, he didn't admit
to killing anyone, did he?
605
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,556
No, he didn't admit it, but...
606
00:28:05,616 --> 00:28:07,721
By the way,
when my client
asked Ms. Southerlyn
607
00:28:07,784 --> 00:28:11,231
if she would
explain his side,
what did she say?
608
00:28:13,123 --> 00:28:14,624
She said she would.
609
00:28:15,725 --> 00:28:16,999
In other words, she lied.
610
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:18,395
Objection.
611
00:28:18,461 --> 00:28:19,565
Never mind.
612
00:28:24,634 --> 00:28:26,204
Plea bargain?
Why should I?
613
00:28:26,569 --> 00:28:28,742
That testimony was
far from ironclad.
614
00:28:28,804 --> 00:28:30,306
The judge
found it convincing.
615
00:28:30,373 --> 00:28:31,852
Well, we'll see
what a jury thinks.
616
00:28:31,907 --> 00:28:34,615
A jury will seize
any opportunity
617
00:28:34,677 --> 00:28:37,021
to protect their daughters
from Mr. Hobbs.
618
00:28:37,580 --> 00:28:39,218
You don't want to
chance losing this.
619
00:28:39,281 --> 00:28:42,057
Mr. Hobbs faces
two counts of murder one.
620
00:28:43,085 --> 00:28:45,395
The question is,
how much is he
willing to chance?
621
00:28:48,391 --> 00:28:49,392
(KNOCKING ON DOOR)
622
00:28:50,426 --> 00:28:52,099
Hmm. How'd it go?
623
00:28:53,362 --> 00:28:55,841
Took a plea.
Murder two, 15-to-life.
624
00:28:56,164 --> 00:28:58,405
Less than eight years
for each woman.
625
00:28:59,134 --> 00:29:00,909
No forensics,
our line-up tanked,
626
00:29:00,969 --> 00:29:03,313
and there were problems
with his statement.
627
00:29:03,805 --> 00:29:07,343
So, in other words,
it's the best you can do,
given your misrepresentation.
628
00:29:09,577 --> 00:29:11,921
I never told him I was
a defense attorney, Nora.
629
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,551
A lie of omission
is still a lie.
630
00:29:16,217 --> 00:29:17,924
I forgot you were
an ethics professor.
631
00:29:17,986 --> 00:29:20,227
I'm afraid the issue
isn't academic, Serena.
632
00:29:21,222 --> 00:29:24,692
I just received these
from the first department's
disciplinary committee.
633
00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:27,069
They're initiating
disbarment proceedings
against you.
634
00:29:34,169 --> 00:29:35,614
I cannot believe
this is happening.
635
00:29:36,603 --> 00:29:38,549
What grounds are they
giving for disbarment?
636
00:29:39,072 --> 00:29:41,951
Violation of
disciplinary rule 1102.
637
00:29:42,910 --> 00:29:45,891
"Engaging in dishonesty,
deceit, or misrepresentation."
638
00:29:45,946 --> 00:29:48,552
I never told Hobbs
I was a defense lawyer.
639
00:29:48,749 --> 00:29:50,558
They claim you let him
believe you were.
640
00:29:51,085 --> 00:29:53,292
If I hadn't, he would have
killed the hostage.
641
00:29:53,353 --> 00:29:56,027
Which is what
you'll explain to
the disciplinary committee.
642
00:29:56,190 --> 00:29:58,534
Who are all lawyers
in private practice.
643
00:29:58,592 --> 00:30:00,731
It's pretty unlikely
there'll be
a prosecutor on it,
644
00:30:00,794 --> 00:30:02,671
and they're not about to
do me any favors.
645
00:30:04,031 --> 00:30:06,033
Nora's also taken me off
the trial schedule.
646
00:30:06,667 --> 00:30:10,581
You're not being punished.
She just can't have you
risk a trial right now.
647
00:30:11,371 --> 00:30:13,612
In case I get disbarred
in the middle of it.
648
00:30:17,310 --> 00:30:18,914
Have you found
an attorney yet?
649
00:30:18,978 --> 00:30:20,355
No.
650
00:30:20,413 --> 00:30:23,690
Apparently lawyers
hate appearing before
the disciplinary committee,
651
00:30:23,749 --> 00:30:25,422
even as advocates.
652
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,329
I'm not sure
it's such a good idea, Jack.
653
00:30:29,722 --> 00:30:31,724
JACK: She needs
all the help she can get.
654
00:30:31,791 --> 00:30:34,499
Aaron Solomon is leading
the charge against her.
655
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,506
Well, I imagine
a former defense attorney
656
00:30:36,562 --> 00:30:40,066
will jump at the chance
to nail a D.A.
for ethical misconduct.
657
00:30:40,299 --> 00:30:43,041
She made a tough choice
in a difficult situation.
658
00:30:43,202 --> 00:30:44,704
We've all been there before.
659
00:30:44,770 --> 00:30:47,080
And we've had to face
the music when we have.
660
00:30:47,306 --> 00:30:49,343
You know, her motives
might've been pure,
661
00:30:49,408 --> 00:30:51,445
but it was
a questionable decision.
662
00:30:51,911 --> 00:30:53,288
She saved lives, Nora.
663
00:30:53,346 --> 00:30:56,122
So did the prosecutor
in Denver in
the same situation.
664
00:30:56,182 --> 00:30:59,185
That didn't stop
the Colorado Bar from
coming down on him.
665
00:30:59,618 --> 00:31:01,188
It's when
the stakes are high,
666
00:31:01,253 --> 00:31:03,199
the rules are most
difficult to follow.
667
00:31:03,355 --> 00:31:04,959
And if no one ever
pushed the limits,
668
00:31:05,023 --> 00:31:06,661
the rest of us
wouldn't know what they are.
669
00:31:06,992 --> 00:31:08,198
It's that kind of thinking
670
00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:11,070
that's gotten
you hauled before
the disciplinary committee.
671
00:31:11,129 --> 00:31:13,166
All the more reason
I should represent her.
672
00:31:13,565 --> 00:31:14,873
I know the territory.
673
00:31:21,773 --> 00:31:24,913
I was scared of the police.
674
00:31:25,877 --> 00:31:27,879
I was afraid of what
they were gonna do to me.
675
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:30,625
So, you asked for a lawyer?
676
00:31:30,949 --> 00:31:32,895
Yeah. I wanted
somebody that...
677
00:31:32,951 --> 00:31:35,090
That I thought
would protect me.
678
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,261
SOLOMON: And did you
believe Ms. Southerlyn
to be that person?
679
00:31:38,756 --> 00:31:41,100
RAYMOND: Yeah.
She said she was a lawyer.
680
00:31:41,292 --> 00:31:44,830
She showed me
her driver's license,
her lawyer's card.
681
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:49,076
Did she ever tell you
that she was a D.A.?
682
00:31:49,633 --> 00:31:50,668
No.
683
00:31:51,135 --> 00:31:52,478
What did she tell you?
684
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:55,714
She told me that
she was gonna help me.
685
00:31:56,474 --> 00:31:59,318
She said that she was
gonna explain to everyone
686
00:31:59,376 --> 00:32:02,914
that what had happened
to those two girls
was an accident.
687
00:32:04,214 --> 00:32:05,818
Did she do that?
688
00:32:06,050 --> 00:32:08,257
No. She did not.
689
00:32:08,552 --> 00:32:10,532
She tried to put me
in prison instead.
690
00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:14,500
Strange way for
one's own lawyer to act.
691
00:32:17,795 --> 00:32:20,070
Two women
bludgeoned to death,
and you're the victim?
692
00:32:20,964 --> 00:32:23,376
I'm sitting in prison
because she lied.
693
00:32:23,433 --> 00:32:25,435
You're sitting in prison
because you murdered
two people.
694
00:32:25,702 --> 00:32:28,182
She violated my rights.
695
00:32:28,237 --> 00:32:30,478
JACK: At the time
you requested a lawyer,
696
00:32:30,540 --> 00:32:32,781
you were threatening
the life of another woman.
697
00:32:33,009 --> 00:32:34,750
I wasn't gonna hurt her.
698
00:32:34,811 --> 00:32:36,381
JACK: According to
your testimony,
699
00:32:36,446 --> 00:32:40,053
you didn't intend
to harm those other
two people either, did you?
700
00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:43,892
She still shouldn't have
lied to me!
701
00:32:44,721 --> 00:32:47,224
JACK: You crushed the skulls
of two women,
702
00:32:47,290 --> 00:32:49,395
held a knife
to the throat of another,
703
00:32:51,294 --> 00:32:55,436
why should this woman
have felt safe enough
704
00:32:55,498 --> 00:32:57,000
to be truthful with you?
705
00:32:57,066 --> 00:32:59,603
She violated my rights!
706
00:33:05,073 --> 00:33:08,486
I never told him
I was a defense attorney
or that I was his lawyer.
707
00:33:08,544 --> 00:33:10,990
But you didn't
disabuse him of
the notion that you were?
708
00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:13,853
He was holding
a woman hostage.
709
00:33:14,416 --> 00:33:17,590
If you hadn't gone in,
do you think Mr. Hobbs
would've killed her?
710
00:33:18,787 --> 00:33:20,027
Yes.
711
00:33:20,722 --> 00:33:24,101
And I also believe
it would've been wrong
to take the chance he would.
712
00:33:32,167 --> 00:33:35,148
If your goal was simply
to save Alicia Williams' life,
713
00:33:35,203 --> 00:33:36,841
why didn't you just ask
Mr. Hobbs to release her
714
00:33:36,905 --> 00:33:38,543
as soon as you
entered the store?
715
00:33:38,607 --> 00:33:41,018
I wanted to establish
some degree of...
716
00:33:42,209 --> 00:33:43,483
Some degree of trust?
717
00:33:45,346 --> 00:33:46,450
Yeah.
718
00:33:46,647 --> 00:33:49,992
And if he believed
you were his lawyer,
that might go a long way?
719
00:33:50,217 --> 00:33:52,094
What he believed
didn't concern me.
720
00:33:52,153 --> 00:33:55,225
Oh, of course it did.
If he'd found out
you were a D.A.,
721
00:33:55,289 --> 00:33:58,031
he might've killed
the hostage, isn't that
the point of your testimony?
722
00:33:59,226 --> 00:34:00,796
He might have killed me, too.
723
00:34:02,363 --> 00:34:06,243
There also came a time when
he asked for legal advice.
724
00:34:06,667 --> 00:34:07,737
Yes.
725
00:34:08,369 --> 00:34:10,349
Did you tell him then
that you weren't his lawyer?
726
00:34:11,539 --> 00:34:12,609
No.
727
00:34:12,707 --> 00:34:15,017
Did you bother
to tell him that even
if you were his lawyer,
728
00:34:15,075 --> 00:34:16,782
any conversation
you had with him
729
00:34:16,844 --> 00:34:19,222
wouldn't be privileged
with the hostage
in the room?
730
00:34:21,948 --> 00:34:23,518
So, either
you're a bad lawyer...
731
00:34:23,583 --> 00:34:24,755
JACK: Objection.
732
00:34:24,818 --> 00:34:26,388
Which I don't believe,
733
00:34:26,453 --> 00:34:29,866
or you didn't
because you needed
the hostage in the room.
734
00:34:30,356 --> 00:34:32,666
Otherwise,
Mr. Hobbs' statements
would've been privileged,
735
00:34:32,726 --> 00:34:34,501
and you couldn't
use them at trial.
736
00:34:34,561 --> 00:34:37,064
Is Mr. Solomon
asking a question?
737
00:34:38,998 --> 00:34:41,103
Ms. Southerlyn,
were you trying
to save a life,
738
00:34:41,167 --> 00:34:42,168
or protect your evidence?
739
00:34:42,569 --> 00:34:45,573
I'm not accused of
trying to have my cake
and eat it, too.
740
00:34:46,006 --> 00:34:48,316
I'm accused of trying
to deceive Mr. Hobbs
741
00:34:48,375 --> 00:34:50,946
when I didn't do
anything deceptive.
742
00:34:51,211 --> 00:34:55,455
Really? Uh,
how did you prove to him
you were a lawyer?
743
00:34:56,082 --> 00:34:58,221
I showed him
my bar association card.
744
00:34:58,818 --> 00:35:01,298
Weren't you also
carrying your
district attorney's badge?
745
00:35:01,688 --> 00:35:03,689
I didn't say anything
to deceive Mr. Hobbs.
746
00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:05,030
So, a moment ago
747
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:08,264
when you said
you didn't do anything,
uh, that was a lie?
748
00:35:12,464 --> 00:35:13,636
I misspoke.
749
00:35:15,968 --> 00:35:18,972
Uh, is there
any other testimony
you might want to clear up?
750
00:35:19,037 --> 00:35:20,607
Because I don't
want to give the panel
751
00:35:20,672 --> 00:35:22,174
the impression
that you're a liar.
752
00:35:25,110 --> 00:35:27,249
I'm not a liar, Mr. Solomon.
753
00:35:27,346 --> 00:35:28,757
That's right, I forgot.
754
00:35:29,481 --> 00:35:30,983
You only omit the truth.
755
00:35:42,394 --> 00:35:44,430
(SIGHS)
That could've gone better.
756
00:35:45,697 --> 00:35:47,836
I think the panel saw
he was trying to trap you.
757
00:35:48,766 --> 00:35:51,406
Well, instead of
my actions being
justified by the situation,
758
00:35:51,469 --> 00:35:54,006
he made it look like
I was trying
to take advantage of it.
759
00:35:54,806 --> 00:35:56,080
(PHONE RINGING)
760
00:35:57,208 --> 00:35:58,414
McCoy.
761
00:36:01,279 --> 00:36:02,280
Thank you.
762
00:36:04,015 --> 00:36:05,858
We may have
another problem.
763
00:36:05,917 --> 00:36:08,295
Solomon just subpoenaed
an expert witness.
764
00:36:08,653 --> 00:36:09,654
Who?
765
00:36:11,022 --> 00:36:13,059
A former ethics professor.
766
00:36:16,194 --> 00:36:18,640
SOLOMON: Nora Lewin is
uniquely qualified.
767
00:36:18,696 --> 00:36:20,141
She's held the same job
as Ms. Southerlyn,
768
00:36:20,198 --> 00:36:21,609
and she's an authority
on legal ethics.
769
00:36:21,666 --> 00:36:24,339
She's also a sitting
district attorney.
It's a stunt.
770
00:36:24,401 --> 00:36:26,403
Who better than her boss
to evaluate her conduct?
771
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:29,041
She's also my boss.
Having me cross-examine her
772
00:36:29,106 --> 00:36:30,915
creates a conflict
of interest.
773
00:36:30,974 --> 00:36:32,112
You might have
considered that
774
00:36:32,175 --> 00:36:34,485
before involving yourself
in this, Mr. McCoy.
775
00:36:34,678 --> 00:36:36,885
Ms. Lewin will respond
to the subpoena.
776
00:36:42,786 --> 00:36:46,359
SOLOMON: Prior to coming
to the D.A.'s office,
you were a professor of law?
777
00:36:46,423 --> 00:36:47,561
Yes.
778
00:36:47,624 --> 00:36:50,434
And one of
the courses you taught
was legal ethics?
779
00:36:50,494 --> 00:36:51,495
That's right.
780
00:36:51,762 --> 00:36:54,402
Could you tell us,
Ms. Lewin, if one
of your former students
781
00:36:54,464 --> 00:36:56,501
came to you with
this hypothetical,
782
00:36:56,566 --> 00:36:57,840
how would you have
advised him?
783
00:36:58,468 --> 00:36:59,947
I honestly don't know.
784
00:37:00,103 --> 00:37:03,482
Don't you? I mean,
you've prosecuted defendants
785
00:37:03,540 --> 00:37:05,610
you didn't believe
deserved prison,
786
00:37:05,674 --> 00:37:07,415
sought the death penalty
when you thought it wrong.
787
00:37:07,476 --> 00:37:10,184
You've always put the law
above your personal feelings.
788
00:37:10,246 --> 00:37:12,817
How would this situation
be any different?
789
00:37:12,982 --> 00:37:14,017
I wasn't there.
790
00:37:14,350 --> 00:37:15,385
Oh.
791
00:37:15,684 --> 00:37:20,030
Well, what would you have
told your student about
the content of that rule?
792
00:37:21,123 --> 00:37:23,865
I would have told
my student to read
the rule for himself.
793
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,569
Fair enough. Let's do that.
794
00:37:27,296 --> 00:37:30,743
Um, DR-1102
795
00:37:30,799 --> 00:37:32,574
states in relevant part that,
796
00:37:32,635 --> 00:37:36,947
"A lawyer shall not
engage in conduct
involving dishonesty,
797
00:37:37,006 --> 00:37:39,782
"fraud, deception,
or misrepresentation."
798
00:37:40,776 --> 00:37:45,418
Now, would you consider
Ms. Southerlyn's actions
to be in breach of that rule?
799
00:37:45,547 --> 00:37:46,821
Objection.
800
00:37:46,915 --> 00:37:48,360
The answer goes
directly to the issue
801
00:37:48,416 --> 00:37:49,952
to be decided
by the committee.
802
00:37:50,418 --> 00:37:52,762
She's an expert witness
offering an opinion.
803
00:37:55,089 --> 00:37:56,500
I'll let her answer.
804
00:37:58,393 --> 00:38:01,840
Ms. Southerlyn was
faced with a unique
and difficult situation.
805
00:38:02,797 --> 00:38:05,903
Um, here's a copy of the code.
806
00:38:06,868 --> 00:38:08,677
Which provision allows
for exceptions
807
00:38:08,736 --> 00:38:10,977
to difficult
and unique situations?
808
00:38:13,308 --> 00:38:14,810
None.
And why is that?
809
00:38:15,577 --> 00:38:18,057
Because if lawyers
could substitute
their judgment
810
00:38:18,112 --> 00:38:21,218
for the ethical rules,
those rules would be
meaningless.
811
00:38:21,449 --> 00:38:23,258
SOLOMON: And they would
also be meaningless
812
00:38:23,318 --> 00:38:26,730
if in violating them,
there wasn't some form
of punishment, correct?
813
00:38:28,021 --> 00:38:29,022
Correct.
814
00:38:29,356 --> 00:38:30,960
Thank you very much.
815
00:38:34,761 --> 00:38:36,707
You were a law professor
for 21 years,
816
00:38:36,763 --> 00:38:38,470
but you've practiced
for less than nine.
817
00:38:38,565 --> 00:38:40,841
Interesting statistic,
but it's not a question.
818
00:38:41,168 --> 00:38:43,205
How much of your
expert opinion is based
819
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:45,807
on practical experience
prosecuting cases?
820
00:38:46,173 --> 00:38:48,847
My opinion is based
on the disciplinary rules.
821
00:38:49,009 --> 00:38:52,684
You can't believe
that the code of
professional responsibility
822
00:38:52,746 --> 00:38:54,623
is more important
than a human life?
823
00:38:55,616 --> 00:38:56,720
No, of course not.
824
00:38:56,817 --> 00:38:59,320
So, in certain situations
825
00:38:59,386 --> 00:39:02,390
where a human life
is at stake,
you might consider
826
00:39:02,456 --> 00:39:04,663
the breach of an ethical
rule to be justified?
827
00:39:06,226 --> 00:39:09,763
I might follow
my conscience
instead of the law. Yes.
828
00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:11,765
However...
829
00:39:11,831 --> 00:39:13,435
Have you terminated
Ms. Southerlyn's employment?
830
00:39:15,167 --> 00:39:16,202
No.
831
00:39:16,269 --> 00:39:18,579
Placed a reprimand
in her file?
No.
832
00:39:18,938 --> 00:39:20,383
Because you're
unwilling to punish her
833
00:39:20,439 --> 00:39:22,749
for a difficult decision
made in the heat
of the moment.
834
00:39:23,542 --> 00:39:24,646
That's right.
835
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:26,951
A moment ago you said
that you weren't there.
836
00:39:27,413 --> 00:39:30,394
But if you could save
a victim's life
837
00:39:30,449 --> 00:39:33,225
by violating an ethical rule,
would you?
838
00:39:35,054 --> 00:39:36,692
Yes, I think I would.
839
00:39:43,262 --> 00:39:44,935
Just one question, Ms. Lewin.
840
00:39:44,997 --> 00:39:49,138
If you did violate that rule,
would you expect there
to be consequences?
841
00:39:50,535 --> 00:39:51,605
Yes.
842
00:39:57,509 --> 00:40:01,082
Well, I'm glad I make
my living on the other
side of the witness box.
843
00:40:01,446 --> 00:40:03,687
I thought you handled
yourself pretty well.
844
00:40:03,782 --> 00:40:07,525
Well, I only hope
I get to return
the compliment someday.
845
00:40:09,221 --> 00:40:10,325
How is she?
846
00:40:10,388 --> 00:40:12,868
Her career is on the line,
847
00:40:12,924 --> 00:40:15,165
and her boss is
a key witness against her.
848
00:40:15,226 --> 00:40:17,035
You won't screw this up
will you, Jack?
849
00:40:17,629 --> 00:40:19,939
Just so long
as they don't call
anymore experts.
850
00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:25,839
SOLOMON: Ms. Southerlyn
did a very brave
and selfless thing.
851
00:40:27,205 --> 00:40:28,979
Why should we punish her?
852
00:40:30,274 --> 00:40:33,414
Isn't this a situation
where we should just
look the other way?
853
00:40:35,212 --> 00:40:38,455
Well, the problem with
looking the other way
854
00:40:38,515 --> 00:40:41,894
is that it involves us
turning our backs
on the ethical rules
855
00:40:41,952 --> 00:40:44,125
that define our profession,
856
00:40:44,188 --> 00:40:49,365
that guide our judgment,
that hold us to a standard
worthy of the public's trust.
857
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:53,735
If we reject those rules,
we are all lost.
858
00:40:55,065 --> 00:40:58,774
That being said, I agree
that it would be wrong
859
00:40:58,836 --> 00:41:01,840
to disbar Ms. Southerlyn
for doing the moral thing.
860
00:41:03,574 --> 00:41:07,317
But doing the moral thing
wasn't her only goal.
861
00:41:08,746 --> 00:41:10,656
With Alicia Williams'
life on the line,
862
00:41:10,713 --> 00:41:13,990
she decided to manipulate
the situation to her own ends.
863
00:41:14,817 --> 00:41:18,890
She tried not only
to save a life,
but save a case as well.
864
00:41:20,823 --> 00:41:24,168
That she did so is
a conflict of interest
865
00:41:24,227 --> 00:41:25,797
that makes
her conduct unethical.
866
00:41:25,862 --> 00:41:29,173
That she did so
through fraud
867
00:41:29,232 --> 00:41:32,611
and deception makes
her conduct inexcusable.
868
00:41:34,003 --> 00:41:35,482
And worthy of disbarment.
869
00:41:41,978 --> 00:41:47,291
There's no question that
what Serena Southerlyn
did saved a life.
870
00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:50,392
She probably also
saved the life of the man
871
00:41:50,453 --> 00:41:52,796
whose rights
she's accused of violating.
872
00:41:53,255 --> 00:41:56,065
How could you think
of disbarring her
with that result?
873
00:41:57,893 --> 00:42:02,967
A D.A. is an officer
of the court,
like all lawyers,
874
00:42:03,031 --> 00:42:05,307
but when he or she
goes to work,
875
00:42:05,367 --> 00:42:09,213
it's also with an obligation
to protect the public
876
00:42:09,271 --> 00:42:11,410
against people
who break the law.
877
00:42:12,174 --> 00:42:16,418
Because in addition
to a bar association card,
878
00:42:16,478 --> 00:42:20,620
Ms. Southerlyn also
carries a badge.
879
00:42:21,583 --> 00:42:26,032
Police officers
use deception
880
00:42:26,088 --> 00:42:29,365
to apprehend criminals
every day.
881
00:42:30,425 --> 00:42:32,301
The law lets them.
882
00:42:32,626 --> 00:42:36,267
Because the law understands
883
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:38,936
that they are
on the front line,
884
00:42:38,999 --> 00:42:40,979
that their lives are at risk.
885
00:42:41,569 --> 00:42:43,981
This was a unique situation
886
00:42:44,038 --> 00:42:46,416
where an Assistant
District Attorney
887
00:42:46,474 --> 00:42:50,081
put her life on the line
to protect us.
888
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:55,718
And when it was over,
everyone walked out alive.
889
00:42:56,951 --> 00:43:00,524
This lawyer had
a moment to choose
890
00:43:00,588 --> 00:43:04,434
between being a lawyer
and being a person.
891
00:43:08,329 --> 00:43:10,331
What would
we have all thought
892
00:43:10,397 --> 00:43:12,398
if she'd made
a different choice?
893
00:43:26,779 --> 00:43:31,990
We are sympathetic to
Ms. Southerlyn's argument that
her ends justified her means.
894
00:43:33,353 --> 00:43:37,096
However, we believe
our system of law
is rooted in the maxim
895
00:43:37,156 --> 00:43:39,796
that the ends never
justify the means.
896
00:43:40,460 --> 00:43:43,339
That is why judges free
accused murderers
897
00:43:43,396 --> 00:43:45,273
whom we all assume
to be guilty
898
00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:48,278
when the evidence
has been obtained illegally.
899
00:43:49,035 --> 00:43:50,981
That is why juries
acquit defendants
900
00:43:51,037 --> 00:43:55,212
when the People
haven't proven their case
beyond all reasonable doubt.
901
00:43:56,708 --> 00:43:58,244
Ms. Southerlyn,
902
00:43:59,011 --> 00:44:04,586
we find you in violation
of DR1-102A, sub 4.
903
00:44:05,250 --> 00:44:07,628
Our recommendation
to the appellate division
904
00:44:07,686 --> 00:44:11,065
is that you receive
a private reprimand.
905
00:44:12,791 --> 00:44:14,737
Given the difficulty
of your dilemma
906
00:44:14,793 --> 00:44:19,037
and the fact your conduct
is unlikely to be repeated,
907
00:44:19,097 --> 00:44:21,600
we feel disbarment
would be inappropriate
at this time.
908
00:44:32,210 --> 00:44:33,518
Thank you, Jack.
909
00:44:34,045 --> 00:44:35,581
Happy to do it.
910
00:44:36,847 --> 00:44:38,224
Celebrating?
911
00:44:38,349 --> 00:44:39,589
Please join us.
912
00:44:39,650 --> 00:44:40,822
Is that scotch?
913
00:44:41,085 --> 00:44:42,496
We're lawyers, what else?
914
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,900
No, I'm driving.
I'd better not.
915
00:44:45,189 --> 00:44:48,102
I just came by to
tell you I put you back
on the trial schedule.
916
00:44:49,327 --> 00:44:50,601
I appreciate that.
917
00:44:51,596 --> 00:44:53,507
And I can appreciate
what you did.
918
00:44:53,931 --> 00:44:55,706
But, you know,
if you wanted
to save people,
919
00:44:55,766 --> 00:44:57,439
you should've
become a doctor.
920
00:45:00,371 --> 00:45:01,372
(CHUCKLES)