1
00:00:02,369 --> 00:00:04,462
— Through another party?
— Yes,

2
00:00:04,505 --> 00:00:08,407
— Could we know who?
— / think that would be a mistake,

3
00:00:08,442 --> 00:00:10,501
/’[[ tell you for what reason,

4
00:00:10,577 --> 00:00:14,240
Not to take this person to task in any way...

5
00:01:09,236 --> 00:01:11,170
/n December 7955,

6
00:01:11,204 --> 00:01:15,800
President Eisenhower had been so alarmed by
charges that Oppenheimer was a Soviet agent

7
00:01:15,842 --> 00:01:18,834
that he had ordered his security clearance
to be revoked

8
00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:21,507
till his case could be properly investigated

9
00:01:21,582 --> 00:01:25,609
So, unknown to Oppenheimer,
formal charges were instituted against him.

10
00:01:26,420 --> 00:01:29,218
Much of the responsibility
for framing these charges

11
00:01:29,256 --> 00:01:33,215
fell upon the Atomic Energy Commission’s
newly—appointed general manager.

12
00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:34,488
(Door closes)

13
00:01:34,528 --> 00:01:36,553
— General NichoLs?
— Yes?

14
00:01:36,597 --> 00:01:39,589
— Harold Green.
— Ah. Come in, Harold.

15
00:01:47,007 --> 00:01:50,374
— How Long have you been with the AEC?
— Three years.

16
00:01:51,612 --> 00:01:54,775
They say you're the smartest young Lawyer
with a commission.

17
00:01:57,751 --> 00:02:00,777
You've handled quite a few security cases,
haven't you?

18
00:02:00,821 --> 00:02:03,415
I guess I have.

19
00:02:03,457 --> 00:02:05,948
— You like the work?
— Ven/ much.

20
00:02:06,026 --> 00:02:09,655
Good... Good.

21
00:02:09,696 --> 00:02:11,926
Cos I got one for ya.

22
00:02:12,966 --> 00:02:15,264
J. Robert Oppenheimer.

23
00:02:16,536 --> 00:02:18,504
He's a big fish.

24
00:02:18,538 --> 00:02:20,529
Think you can handle him?

25
00:02:20,574 --> 00:02:22,667
Yes, sir. Yes, I do.

26
00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:26,845
Good. Now, what I want you to do

27
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,940
is to draw up a draft of charges
against Oppenheimer.

28
00:02:29,983 --> 00:02:33,248
Have a look through his file.
Make your recommendations.

29
00:02:37,557 --> 00:02:40,924
Yes, sir. Er... Which is Oppenheimer's file?

30
00:02:42,529 --> 00:02:44,656
It's all Oppenheimer's file, Harold.

31
00:02:45,766 --> 00:02:50,100
This is a fella who's up to his neck in it.
There's stuff from the 'SOs, early '40s.

32
00:02:50,137 --> 00:02:53,300
A certain amount of material
on the post—war period.

33
00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:59,540
Oppie's attitude towards the H—bomb,
air defence, his conduct as chairman of the GAC.

34
00:03:01,682 --> 00:03:05,015
To my mind,
this is the most interesting material.

35
00:03:05,052 --> 00:03:08,647
However, I have to tell you
that the commissioners of the AEC

36
00:03:08,689 --> 00:03:11,681
have forbidden us to make use
of that post—war material.

37
00:03:11,725 --> 00:03:15,627
Something about
not tn/ing a man for his opinions.

38
00:03:16,830 --> 00:03:18,491
It's fair enough, I suppose.

39
00:03:19,966 --> 00:03:22,025
It's a damn shame, though.

40
00:03:22,069 --> 00:03:24,629
That post—war stuff is awfully interesting.

41
00:03:56,937 --> 00:03:58,700
Well...

42
00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:01,931
How's it going?

43
00:04:02,843 --> 00:04:05,607
I've written in a few sentences
about the post—war.

44
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:12,718
I told you, Harold. We're not allowed to frame
charges on the basis of the man's opinions.

45
00:04:12,753 --> 00:04:15,153
But it's not his opinions.

46
00:04:15,222 --> 00:04:18,953
The way I've written it, we're not questioning
his opinions on the H—bomb.

47
00:04:19,025 --> 00:04:21,016
It's his voracity we're questioning.

48
00:04:22,262 --> 00:04:25,129
— Voracity?
— Sure. Look at the record.

49
00:04:25,165 --> 00:04:29,727
1945, Oppenheimer says there's a good chance
the H—bomb can be made.

50
00:04:29,770 --> 00:04:35,333
1949, the GAC says the crash program could
produce the hydrogen bomb in five years.

51
00:04:35,375 --> 00:04:38,936
He's chairman of the GAC
and there he is behind the bomb.

52
00:04:38,979 --> 00:04:41,675
But, in the same year, 1949,

53
00:04:41,715 --> 00:04:44,650
you also find him
opposing the development of the bomb

54
00:04:44,684 --> 00:04:50,748
by claiming, among other things,
that "it is not feasible."

55
00:04:50,824 --> 00:04:55,056
So at the same time, Oppenheimer's
saying both yes and no to the H—bomb.

56
00:04:55,095 --> 00:04:57,495
We can't attack his opinions, OK,

57
00:04:57,531 --> 00:05:02,161
but what we can ask is how truthful is he being

58
00:05:02,202 --> 00:05:04,261
about what his opinion is.

59
00:05:08,241 --> 00:05:10,801
It's a test of his voracity,

60
00:05:10,844 --> 00:05:12,869
not his opinions.

61
00:05:15,715 --> 00:05:18,183
They didn't lie, did they, Harold?

62
00:05:19,186 --> 00:05:21,586
General?

63
00:05:21,621 --> 00:05:23,782
You are a smart young lawyer.

64
00:05:25,325 --> 00:05:27,225
Ah. Hi.

65
00:05:27,260 --> 00:05:30,388
— Lewis.
— Sony to drag you down here from Princeton.

66
00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:33,228
— Oppie.
— You just got back from Europe.

67
00:05:33,266 --> 00:05:34,893
— Yeah.
— How was it?

68
00:05:34,935 --> 00:05:37,802
Oh, you know. Declining.

69
00:05:37,838 --> 00:05:40,671
— But the best part was...
— Robert?

70
00:05:40,707 --> 00:05:43,301
It makes me ven/ sad to have to do this

71
00:05:43,343 --> 00:05:46,005
but as chairman of the Atomic Energy
Commission,

72
00:05:46,046 --> 00:05:49,447
I have been authorized
to deliver this to you in person.

73
00:05:51,017 --> 00:05:54,748
As you will see, it's official notification
of the charges against you.

74
00:05:54,821 --> 00:05:58,689
Because of those charges,
it had been decided it would be appropriate

75
00:05:58,725 --> 00:06:01,193
to suspend your security clearance.

76
00:06:01,228 --> 00:06:03,628
And because of that suspension,

77
00:06:03,663 --> 00:06:09,226
the AEC is therefore disbarred from any further
use of your sen/ices as an adviser.

78
00:06:10,270 --> 00:06:15,640
Robert, as I've told you,
this brings me great, deep personal anguish.

79
00:06:41,935 --> 00:06:43,994
I can't believe it.

80
00:06:44,037 --> 00:06:46,096
I just can't.

81
00:06:46,139 --> 00:06:48,630
They can't do this to me!

82
00:06:50,210 --> 00:06:52,701
Strauss was loving even/ minute of it.

83
00:06:53,747 --> 00:06:55,908
And Nichols!

84
00:06:57,617 --> 00:07:01,212
— They can't do this!
— Well, they have. What are you gonna do?

85
00:07:01,254 --> 00:07:02,448
(Knock on door)

86
00:07:02,489 --> 00:07:05,151
When you called,
I asked Herb Marks to come round.

87
00:07:05,191 --> 00:07:09,389
He did a lot of legal work for the AEC.
He could be useful. Come in, Herb.

88
00:07:10,864 --> 00:07:12,957
Oh, Robert.

89
00:07:12,999 --> 00:07:16,833
— This is terrible. I just want you to know...
— Yeah, yeah.

90
00:07:16,870 --> 00:07:18,701
Read this.

91
00:07:22,275 --> 00:07:24,641
They say I have two choices.

92
00:07:24,678 --> 00:07:29,615
I can resign, no fuss, ven/ discreet.
Or I can request a hearing.

93
00:07:29,649 --> 00:07:32,641
— Open or closed?
— Closed, I would think.

94
00:07:32,686 --> 00:07:36,622
Although Strauss didn't rate the chances of it
staying closed ven/ highly.

95
00:07:36,656 --> 00:07:39,318
Couldn't keep that quiet in Washington.

96
00:07:39,392 --> 00:07:41,189
What do you think, Herb?

97
00:07:41,227 --> 00:07:44,856
I can't believe they had the balls
to put in this stuff about the H—bomb.

98
00:07:44,898 --> 00:07:47,128
— It's opinion.
— Unbelievable, isn't it?

99
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,601
Now, look.
We have all expressed disgust and dismay.

100
00:07:50,637 --> 00:07:53,105
Question is, what does he do now?

101
00:07:53,139 --> 00:07:55,471
Well, he has to ask for a hearing.

102
00:07:55,508 --> 00:07:58,841
If he accepts this,
it's tantamount to an admission of guilt.

103
00:07:58,878 --> 00:08:01,574
I don't know, Herb.
There's a lot of stuff in there.

104
00:08:01,614 --> 00:08:04,412
The Chevalier stuff. All those pre—war
connections.

105
00:08:04,451 --> 00:08:06,248
Christ, that lady. What's her name?

106
00:08:06,286 --> 00:08:08,083
Jean Tatlock.

107
00:08:08,154 --> 00:08:12,591
I know it's only garbage, but who wants one's
garbage spread out for even/one to look at?

108
00:08:12,625 --> 00:08:16,083
— Takes a sick mind to drag Jean into this.
— It's a sick world.

109
00:08:17,464 --> 00:08:19,625
I don't agree with you, Joe.

110
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,996
If he doesn't fight this, he leaves the charges
on the record for even/one else to pick up.

111
00:08:25,038 --> 00:08:28,064
And they will.
Which would you have Robert face?

112
00:08:28,108 --> 00:08:30,508
A closed hearing or a dogfight in the open

113
00:08:30,577 --> 00:08:33,671
with Joe McCarthy,
Senator Jenner or some other caveman?

114
00:08:33,713 --> 00:08:37,012
— OK, but how long do you...
— Joe!

115
00:08:37,050 --> 00:08:42,010
If it's unanswered, he gives sticks of dynamite
to even/ headline—grabber in Washington.

116
00:08:43,623 --> 00:08:45,853
You have to do it, Robert.

117
00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:48,191
Yes.

118
00:08:48,228 --> 00:08:50,389
(Joe) Are you gonna fight?

119
00:08:52,265 --> 00:08:54,256
I'm going to request a hearing.

120
00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:59,738
if it’s unanswered, he gives sticks of dynamite
to every headline—grabber in Washington.

121
00:09:01,941 --> 00:09:04,205
You have to do it, Robert

122
00:09:04,244 --> 00:09:06,940
Yes. /’m gonna fight

123
00:09:10,083 --> 00:09:12,483
/’m going to request a hearing.

124
00:09:13,420 --> 00:09:15,388
So be it.

125
00:09:17,791 --> 00:09:21,989
Well, thank you ven/ much.
And thank Mr. Hoover for me, will you?

126
00:09:26,666 --> 00:09:30,261
Well, if that's the way he wants it,
we've got to move fast.

127
00:09:30,303 --> 00:09:33,500
I can't be ven/ forward in this.
You'll have to take the strain.

128
00:09:33,573 --> 00:09:35,973
— Right.
— We'll have to appoint a board

129
00:09:36,009 --> 00:09:38,978
and naturally we'll need a lawyer
to present our case.

130
00:09:39,012 --> 00:09:42,914
— Got any ideas?
— What are we looking for? Prestige?

131
00:09:42,982 --> 00:09:44,415
We're looking for results.

132
00:09:46,252 --> 00:09:48,083
I think I may know a fella.

133
00:09:48,121 --> 00:09:52,615
I'm not really clear about this.
Is this going to be some kind of a trial?

134
00:09:52,659 --> 00:09:57,392
Emphatically not. I drew up the regulations
that govern these hearings.

135
00:09:57,430 --> 00:10:01,992
What I was most concerned about was
there should be no element of a trial.

136
00:10:02,035 --> 00:10:06,665
The whole thing should be a calm, Judicious
enquin/ after the truth. Nothing more.

137
00:10:06,706 --> 00:10:10,039
— Then we don't need a trial lawyer.
— No, I wouldn't think so.

138
00:10:11,144 --> 00:10:14,011
I think that from first to last

139
00:10:14,047 --> 00:10:16,607
we should emphasize the quality of our case.

140
00:10:16,649 --> 00:10:18,879
You're a distinguished man.

141
00:10:18,918 --> 00:10:20,818
Most distinguished.

142
00:10:20,854 --> 00:10:25,723
You'll have distinguished men prepared to come
and give testimony to your quality and loyalty.

143
00:10:25,758 --> 00:10:31,128
I think our choice of counsel should be governed
by the same criteria. A man of quality.

144
00:10:31,164 --> 00:10:33,530
Do you know Lloyd Garrison?

145
00:10:33,566 --> 00:10:35,625
Name rings a bell.

146
00:10:35,668 --> 00:10:38,762
He's a New York attorney.
He's on the board of the institute.

147
00:10:38,838 --> 00:10:40,362
Sure. On the Urban League?

148
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,170
And he's president of the Civil Liberties Union.

149
00:10:43,243 --> 00:10:47,373
— I know him.
— I don't know if he handles much trial work

150
00:10:47,447 --> 00:10:51,440
— but if this isn't going to be a trial...
— It isn't.

151
00:10:51,484 --> 00:10:53,884
Lloyd Garrison.

152
00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,047
A tremendous reputation.

153
00:10:57,524 --> 00:10:59,992
All right, Lloyd. What's the verdict?

154
00:11:02,729 --> 00:11:04,720
Yes.

155
00:11:04,797 --> 00:11:07,322
Now, I can't say too much after reading this,

156
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,734
but clearly there's a great deal
of derogaton/ items or allegations.

157
00:11:11,804 --> 00:11:14,602
I take it this is not entirely a fain/ tale.

158
00:11:14,641 --> 00:11:18,304
Well, sure. I was a member of...
I can't even remember their names now.

159
00:11:18,344 --> 00:11:21,939
Consumers Union?
Cited as a Communist front organization, 1944.

160
00:11:22,015 --> 00:11:25,280
— Sure, I...
— Friends of the Chinese People?

161
00:11:25,318 --> 00:11:27,047
Maybe.

162
00:11:27,086 --> 00:11:30,283
The American Committee
for Democratic and Intellectual Freedom.

163
00:11:30,323 --> 00:11:33,258
Sure. This was all a hundred years ago,
before the war.

164
00:11:33,293 --> 00:11:37,127
I was cleared on this for Los Alamos,
I was cleared on it for the AEC.

165
00:11:37,163 --> 00:11:39,495
— They're scraping the barrel.
— Mm...

166
00:11:39,532 --> 00:11:43,024
My worn/ is that taken separately
from the rest of your life,

167
00:11:43,069 --> 00:11:46,436
all this adds up to a formidable list
of errors of Judgment.

168
00:11:46,472 --> 00:11:51,466
— Can't let that happen.
— I would like to see a "whole man" approach.

169
00:11:51,511 --> 00:11:55,311
We go to the board and say,
"Yes, there are these..." What shall we...

170
00:11:55,348 --> 00:11:58,283
— Errors of Judgment.
— Youthful indiscretions.

171
00:11:58,318 --> 00:12:01,879
But taken in the full context
of a most distinguished career,

172
00:12:01,921 --> 00:12:05,789
a record of unequalled sen/ice
to the nation and to the government,

173
00:12:05,825 --> 00:12:10,023
how little a part of the whole ston/
these blemishes truly are.

174
00:12:10,063 --> 00:12:12,031
How ven/ little.

175
00:12:13,333 --> 00:12:15,801
— That sounds OK.
— Seems to me the right note.

176
00:12:15,835 --> 00:12:19,236
Another problem occurs to me.
These hydrogen bomb matters.

177
00:12:19,272 --> 00:12:22,469
How they permitted themselves
to include them defies belief.

178
00:12:22,508 --> 00:12:27,673
It's incredible. "We don't agree with your
opinions so you're a security risk." Nice thinking.

179
00:12:27,714 --> 00:12:30,877
However, it's here.
And what I would not like to see happening

180
00:12:30,917 --> 00:12:35,149
is that a whole maze of complex scientific detail
should obscure the issues.

181
00:12:35,221 --> 00:12:39,521
I think we wanna keep this thing at all times
on the higher level.

182
00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:44,496
It should be a question of character, motives,
not a lot of fussing with technicalities.

183
00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:47,124
But I always had sound technical reasons
for what I said.

184
00:12:48,034 --> 00:12:52,733
I sense danger here. What do they say?
You can prove anything with technicalities.

185
00:12:52,772 --> 00:12:54,569
Statistics.

186
00:12:55,475 --> 00:12:57,841
And I don't want to give them that chance.

187
00:12:57,877 --> 00:13:02,814
Well, if we do wanna get technical, you'll have
to apply for a high security clearance.

188
00:13:02,849 --> 00:13:07,252
I'd rather not have to.
It's Just a whole area I don't want to get into.

189
00:13:07,287 --> 00:13:11,587
Robert isn't accused of scientific failings
but failings of character.

190
00:13:11,624 --> 00:13:14,286
And these I'm sure we can disprove.

191
00:13:14,327 --> 00:13:16,591
However, we can think that one over.

192
00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:20,463
I don't think there's anything else
we can usefully discuss at this stage.

193
00:13:22,802 --> 00:13:24,497
Any news?

194
00:13:24,537 --> 00:13:26,437
Yeah. Some.

195
00:13:26,472 --> 00:13:30,408
I was over at AEC.
They named the chief counsel for the hearings.

196
00:13:31,944 --> 00:13:35,072
— Roger Robb.
— Who's he? I've never heard of him.

197
00:13:35,114 --> 00:13:37,275
I have.

198
00:13:38,251 --> 00:13:41,948
Washington bar.
He's a damn good trial lawyer.

199
00:13:43,656 --> 00:13:45,351
(Nichols) Mr. Robb.

200
00:13:45,391 --> 00:13:48,519
I wouldn't presume to advise you on your tactics

201
00:13:48,561 --> 00:13:53,498
but I've seen Oppie appear as a witness
before committees and I was impressed.

202
00:13:53,533 --> 00:13:55,933
This guy can charm you right out of your seat.

203
00:13:55,968 --> 00:13:59,233
Well, he can by to charm me.

204
00:14:00,473 --> 00:14:04,500
You know, one thing that...
Well, I won't say it's bothering me.

205
00:14:04,544 --> 00:14:06,910
I don't like to refuse free gifts

206
00:14:06,979 --> 00:14:10,506
but I've been looking over the regulations
governing these hearings.

207
00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:13,713
They seem kinda weighted
against the defendant, don't they?

208
00:14:13,786 --> 00:14:16,482
— How do you mean?
— Well, in trial law,

209
00:14:16,522 --> 00:14:19,457
we have a concept called the blank pad rule.

210
00:14:19,492 --> 00:14:22,655
It means the only matters
on which a defendant can be Judged

211
00:14:22,695 --> 00:14:26,187
are those matters which are actually raised
within the courtroom.

212
00:14:26,232 --> 00:14:30,498
There can't be...
Well, there shouldn't be any prior knowledge.

213
00:14:30,536 --> 00:14:32,595
— Yes.
— Well, here, I see

214
00:14:32,638 --> 00:14:36,438
that I'm gonna be allowed a period
with the board before the hearing opens

215
00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:38,671
to go over the files with them.

216
00:14:38,711 --> 00:14:42,044
To assist them in evaluating the documents.

217
00:14:42,081 --> 00:14:47,519
Oh, I'll assist them, all right. But you can see
where it kicks the blank pad out of the window.

218
00:14:47,553 --> 00:14:52,149
All I know is that it was Joe Volpe
who drew up those regulations.

219
00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:54,125
It was?

220
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,958
Well, that takes care of my conscience.

221
00:14:57,029 --> 00:15:00,624
Still, if I were Oppenheimer's counsel,
I'd raise hell about it.

222
00:15:00,666 --> 00:15:02,964
Who is his counsel, by the way?

223
00:15:03,002 --> 00:15:06,096
Fella named Lloyd Garrison.

224
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,203
Garrison...

225
00:15:10,243 --> 00:15:12,677
— Ven/ distinguished.
— You know him?

226
00:15:12,712 --> 00:15:15,044
Sure. The birdwatcher.

227
00:15:15,081 --> 00:15:19,609
— What?
— I hear he watches birds in his spare time.

228
00:15:19,652 --> 00:15:22,917
Oh. Well, if that's all, Mr. Robb...

229
00:15:22,989 --> 00:15:27,722
Yeah, that's it. Though for a lot of this,
I think I'm gonna need security clearance.

230
00:15:27,794 --> 00:15:30,490
— You got it.
— I imagine defending counsel

231
00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:33,090
will avail themselves of the same facilities.

232
00:15:33,132 --> 00:15:36,932
I really wouldn't know.
Garrison hasn't asked for it.

233
00:15:42,875 --> 00:15:46,038
I honestly believe
we're as ready as we'll ever be.

234
00:15:46,078 --> 00:15:48,273
What are our chances, Lloyd?

235
00:15:48,314 --> 00:15:51,806
— We should be quietly confident.
— We should be scared as hell.

236
00:15:51,851 --> 00:15:56,015
No, no, no. As long as we keep our focus
on the question of character.

237
00:15:56,055 --> 00:15:58,489
Speak the truth and shame the devil.

238
00:15:59,892 --> 00:16:02,986
— I feel pretty relaxed.
— Well, you should.

239
00:16:03,029 --> 00:16:08,490
I've seen you at hearings. No contest.
Personally, I pity Robb tomorrow.

240
00:16:08,568 --> 00:16:11,662
I'm so impressed
by the amount of support we've got.

241
00:16:11,704 --> 00:16:14,229
Even/body we've asked
has been so glad to help.

242
00:16:14,273 --> 00:16:16,605
— It's good of them.
— Except Teller.

243
00:16:16,642 --> 00:16:18,303
Little creep.

244
00:16:18,377 --> 00:16:22,211
I was surprised.
He seemed almost hostile. I wonder why.

245
00:16:22,248 --> 00:16:25,308
That's easy.
He's Jealous of Robert, always has been.

246
00:16:25,384 --> 00:16:27,716
It crossed my mind he might give us trouble.

247
00:16:27,787 --> 00:16:31,985
I don't think so. He's a scientist.
Whatever it is, he'll keep it in the family.

248
00:16:32,024 --> 00:16:34,117
He seemed almost angn/ with you.

249
00:16:34,193 --> 00:16:37,287
Edward takes some understanding sometimes.

250
00:16:37,330 --> 00:16:39,821
You're ven/ forgiving, Robert.

251
00:16:41,501 --> 00:16:42,991
Tu comprends?

252
00:16:43,035 --> 00:16:46,698
You pardonnez so goddamn much.
Those bastards are tn/ing to nail you.

253
00:16:46,739 --> 00:16:49,799
— Oh, now...
— Oh, no, Just kidding. Obviously.

254
00:16:52,245 --> 00:16:54,941
I think we all need a good night's rest.

255
00:16:55,014 --> 00:16:56,743
I need another drink.

256
00:16:57,817 --> 00:17:01,150
(Narrator) The hearing
in the matter of] Robert Oppenheimer

257
00:17:01,187 --> 00:17:03,621
opened on April the 72th, 7954.

258
00:17:03,656 --> 00:17:07,285
The board consisted of Gordon Gray
as chairman,

259
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:09,453
the industrialist 7'homas Morgan,

260
00:17:09,495 --> 00:17:13,192
and a scientist, Dr. Ward I/ Evans
of Northwestern University.

261
00:17:14,166 --> 00:17:17,067
Unknown to Oppenheimer,
their counsel Roger Robb

262
00:17:17,103 --> 00:17:19,697
had in his possession
tapes of wartime interviews

263
00:17:19,772 --> 00:17:23,640
between Oppenheimer
and the Manhattan Project security officers.

264
00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:26,770
— We've been waiting nearly half an hour.
— I do apologize.

265
00:17:26,812 --> 00:17:29,440
I can't say exactly where he might be.

266
00:17:29,482 --> 00:17:32,576
— I'm sure we'll have news ven/ shortly.
— Well, I hope so.

267
00:17:32,618 --> 00:17:36,645
Mr. Robb, I apologize for this delay.

268
00:17:36,689 --> 00:17:39,385
Quite all right with us, Mr. Chairman.

269
00:17:53,739 --> 00:17:57,038
— What the...
— She fell downstairs last night.

270
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,680
— Have they started?
— They're waiting.

271
00:18:09,221 --> 00:18:12,088
Mr. Chairman, members of the board.

272
00:18:12,158 --> 00:18:15,559
I would like to say at the onset
that we appreciate ven/ much

273
00:18:15,595 --> 00:18:19,463
the willingness of men of your standing
and responsibility

274
00:18:19,498 --> 00:18:24,868
to undertake this exacting and onerous Job
in the interests of the countly

275
00:18:24,904 --> 00:18:28,203
We cannot but be conscious
that for the past week,

276
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,234
members of the board have been examining
a file containing items about Dr. Oppenheimer

277
00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:36,976
to which we have had,
and we now have, no access at all.

278
00:18:37,016 --> 00:18:39,382
I'm sure it goes without saying

279
00:18:39,418 --> 00:18:42,649
that we are confident that the minds
of the members of the board

280
00:18:42,688 --> 00:18:46,215
will be open to receive the testimony
that we shall submit.

281
00:18:46,258 --> 00:18:50,786
I think you have no need to have concern
on that score, Mr. Garrison.

282
00:18:50,830 --> 00:18:55,290
Gentlemen, you have in your possession
copies of a letter written by Dr. Oppenheimer

283
00:18:55,334 --> 00:18:59,464
and addressed to General Nichols,
letter dated March 4th, 1954.

284
00:18:59,505 --> 00:19:03,407
In this letter,
written in the form of an autobiography,

285
00:19:03,442 --> 00:19:05,433
he has sought to give an account

286
00:19:05,478 --> 00:19:09,608
of the activities that have given rise
to the derogaton/ items in his record

287
00:19:09,649 --> 00:19:11,549
that have led to this hearing.

288
00:19:11,584 --> 00:19:15,782
One of the things that struck me
as I went through this account

289
00:19:15,821 --> 00:19:21,088
was the quite evident fact that throughout,
his energies were strongly devoted

290
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,391
almost entirely to his scientific undertakings.

291
00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:29,663
In this whole post—war period, I do not think
that there is a single association of his

292
00:19:29,702 --> 00:19:32,637
that can possibly be questioned as derogatony,

293
00:19:32,672 --> 00:19:37,769
or indeed anything other
than a rich record of devotion to his science

294
00:19:37,810 --> 00:19:40,301
and sen/ice to the government.

295
00:19:40,379 --> 00:19:44,577
In the post—war period, even/thing in it
is in truth utterly inconsistent

296
00:19:44,617 --> 00:19:50,385
with the notion that this man could have been
anything but a devoted supporter

297
00:19:50,423 --> 00:19:53,483
of the American system that we love.

298
00:19:55,127 --> 00:19:59,257
I think that's all I have to say
of a preliminan/ character, Mr. Chairman.

299
00:19:59,298 --> 00:20:01,698
Now Mr. Robb?

300
00:20:01,734 --> 00:20:07,832
Dr. Oppenheimer, did you prepare your letter
of March 4th, 1954 to General Nichols,

301
00:20:07,873 --> 00:20:10,034
— this autobiography?
— Yes.

302
00:20:10,076 --> 00:20:13,045
— And you've read it ven/ carefully, I assume?
— Yes.

303
00:20:13,079 --> 00:20:17,038
Are all the statements in this letter the truth
the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

304
00:20:17,083 --> 00:20:18,710
Yes, Mr. Robb.

305
00:20:18,751 --> 00:20:21,117
Dr. Oppenheimer,

306
00:20:21,153 --> 00:20:23,417
there's never been any question in your mind

307
00:20:23,456 --> 00:20:26,619
that a man as closely associated
with the Communist movement

308
00:20:26,659 --> 00:20:29,150
has no business on a secret war proJect?

309
00:20:29,228 --> 00:20:33,324
— That is right.
— Then let me ask you a blunt question.

310
00:20:33,365 --> 00:20:36,266
Didn't you know, certainly by 1943,

311
00:20:36,302 --> 00:20:41,467
that the Communist Party was an instrument
or vehicle of espionage in this countly?

312
00:20:41,507 --> 00:20:44,305
— I was not clear about that.
— Didn't you suspect it?

313
00:20:44,343 --> 00:20:47,506
— No.
— Wasn't your fear of espionage

314
00:20:47,546 --> 00:20:50,640
one of the reasons
why you felt membership in the Party

315
00:20:50,683 --> 00:20:53,481
was inconsistent
with work on a secret war proJect?

316
00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:54,645
Yes.

317
00:20:54,687 --> 00:20:57,554
— Your answer is that it was.
— Yes.

318
00:20:57,590 --> 00:21:00,320
What about a former member of the Party?

319
00:21:00,392 --> 00:21:03,486
Is he an appropriate person
to work on a secret war proJect?

320
00:21:03,529 --> 00:21:07,226
That would depend on the totality and character
of the disengagement

321
00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:11,066
and what kind of a man he was,
whether he was an honest man.

322
00:21:11,103 --> 00:21:16,268
Let us take your brother Frank as an example.
Tell us the kind of test you applied in his case.

323
00:21:16,308 --> 00:21:19,471
In the case of a brother, you don't apply tests.
At least I didn't.

324
00:21:19,512 --> 00:21:21,343
— Well, now...
— I knew my brother.

325
00:21:21,413 --> 00:21:23,472
I never regarded him as dangerous.

326
00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:28,749
I see. In other words, you felt that your brother
was an exception to what you Just stated here.

327
00:21:28,821 --> 00:21:32,882
No. I felt that
though there was a danger of espionage,

328
00:21:32,925 --> 00:21:36,122
that this was not a general danger.

329
00:21:36,162 --> 00:21:39,962
How would you have tested to see
if someone was dangerous back in 1943?

330
00:21:40,032 --> 00:21:43,866
— Only the knowledge of a man's character.
— Just what you knew of him?

331
00:21:43,903 --> 00:21:47,896
I don't regard myself as a man to settle these
questions. I am stating opinions.

332
00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:50,534
That's Just what I'm getting at, Doctor.

333
00:21:50,576 --> 00:21:52,874
On page 22 of this letter,

334
00:21:52,912 --> 00:21:57,542
you refer to what for convenience
I will call the Eltenton—Chevalier incident.

335
00:21:57,583 --> 00:22:02,043
Would you please tell the board as accurately
as you can what happened on that occasion?

336
00:22:02,087 --> 00:22:05,488
This is one of those things I've had so many
occasions to think about

337
00:22:05,524 --> 00:22:10,120
that I'm not gonna recall actual words,
I'm gonna recall the nature of the conversation.

338
00:22:10,196 --> 00:22:13,688
Wherever possible,
I would prefer that you'd use the actual words.

339
00:22:13,732 --> 00:22:18,635
— I'm not going to do that.
— Go on, Doctor.

340
00:22:18,671 --> 00:22:22,539
One day, in the winter of 1942/'43,

341
00:22:22,608 --> 00:22:25,202
Haakon Chevalier came to our house for drinks.

342
00:22:25,244 --> 00:22:27,872
When I went into the pantly, he followed me.

343
00:22:27,913 --> 00:22:32,145
Um... He said, "I saw George Eltenton recently."

344
00:22:32,218 --> 00:22:38,521
Eltenton said he had means of communicating
technical information to Soviet scientists.

345
00:22:38,557 --> 00:22:40,718
He didn't describe the means.

346
00:22:40,759 --> 00:22:44,695
I thought I said, "But that's treason,"
but I'm not sure.

347
00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:47,699
Anyway, I said something.
"This is a terrible thing."

348
00:22:47,733 --> 00:22:51,635
Chevalier expressed complete agreement.
That was the end of it.

349
00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:54,264
— You used the word "treason"?
— I don't know.

350
00:22:54,306 --> 00:22:57,571
— Did you think it was treasonous?
— I thought it was terrible.

351
00:22:57,643 --> 00:23:00,077
Did you think it was treasonous?

352
00:23:00,112 --> 00:23:03,570
To take information from the US
and ship it abroad illegally? Sure.

353
00:23:03,616 --> 00:23:08,246
In other words, you felt that the course
of conduct suggested to you by Eltenton

354
00:23:08,287 --> 00:23:10,585
was an attempt at espionage, didn't you?

355
00:23:10,623 --> 00:23:13,786
— Sure.
— Did Chevalier in that conversation to you

356
00:23:13,826 --> 00:23:19,059
mention anything about the use of microfilm
as a means of transmitting information?

357
00:23:19,098 --> 00:23:20,861
— No.
— You're sure of that?

358
00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:24,028
— Yes.
— Did he tell you or indicate in any way

359
00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:26,867
that he'd spoken to anyone but you
about this matter?

360
00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:30,272
— No.
— You're sure of this?

361
00:23:30,309 --> 00:23:31,606
Yes.

362
00:23:31,644 --> 00:23:36,445
When did you first mention your conversation
with Chevalier to a security officer?

363
00:23:36,482 --> 00:23:40,145
On a visit to Berkeley. I don't remember
what security officer it was.

364
00:23:40,219 --> 00:23:45,851
Well, if the record shows that it was to
Lieutenant Johnson on August 25th, 1943,

365
00:23:45,891 --> 00:23:48,018
— you would accept that?
— Yes.

366
00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:51,826
And the next day you were inten/iewed
by Colonel Pash, were you not?

367
00:23:51,864 --> 00:23:53,422
Yes.

368
00:23:53,465 --> 00:23:56,229
Did you tell Pash
the whole truth about this matter?

369
00:23:56,268 --> 00:23:58,293
— No.
— You lied to him?

370
00:23:58,337 --> 00:23:59,326
Yes.

371
00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:03,467
What did you tell Colonel Pash
that was not true?

372
00:24:03,509 --> 00:24:08,469
That Eltenton had approached three people on
the Manhattan ProJect through an intermedialy.

373
00:24:08,514 --> 00:24:12,814
Did you discuss with or disclose to Pash
the identity of Chevalier?

374
00:24:12,851 --> 00:24:14,079
No.

375
00:24:15,487 --> 00:24:18,581
Let us then refer to Chevalier as X.

376
00:24:18,624 --> 00:24:20,091
All right.

377
00:24:20,125 --> 00:24:23,686
Did you tell Pash that X had approached
three people on this proJect?

378
00:24:23,729 --> 00:24:28,029
I'm not clear whether there were three X's
or whether X had approached three people.

379
00:24:28,067 --> 00:24:30,331
Didn't you say X had approached three people?

380
00:24:30,402 --> 00:24:31,494
Probably.

381
00:24:31,537 --> 00:24:33,732
Why did you do that, Doctor?

382
00:24:37,443 --> 00:24:39,240
Because I was an idiot.

383
00:24:40,245 --> 00:24:43,009
Is that your only explanation?

384
00:24:43,048 --> 00:24:46,108
— I was reluctant to mention Chevalier.
— Yes.

385
00:24:46,151 --> 00:24:48,847
No doubt somewhat reluctant to mention myself.

386
00:24:48,887 --> 00:24:51,754
Why would you tell them
Chevalier had gone to three people?

387
00:24:51,824 --> 00:24:55,157
— Didn't that make it worse for Chevalier?
— I didn't mention him.

388
00:24:55,227 --> 00:24:59,323
No, no, but X. If X had gone to three people,
that would have shown.

389
00:24:59,365 --> 00:25:01,560
— He was deeply involved.
— Yes.

390
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:08,199
I'm gonna have trouble
making myself understandable.

391
00:25:09,041 --> 00:25:11,805
The ston/ I told Pash was not a true stony.

392
00:25:11,844 --> 00:25:15,041
There were not three or more people involved
on the proJect.

393
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,776
There was one person involved. That was me.

394
00:25:19,618 --> 00:25:23,054
Whether I embroidered the ston/
to underline the seriousness of it

395
00:25:23,088 --> 00:25:29,789
or to hide the simple facts, namely that
Chevalier had only talked to me about it,

396
00:25:29,828 --> 00:25:31,659
I don't know.

397
00:25:32,731 --> 00:25:35,199
Did Pash ask you for the name of X?

398
00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:39,830
— I imagine he did.
— Don't you know that he did?

399
00:25:39,872 --> 00:25:41,703
I... Sure.

400
00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:46,336
Didn't you know that your refusal to give him
the identity of X impeded the investigation?

401
00:25:46,412 --> 00:25:51,281
Actually, the only thing
that needed investigating was Eltenton.

402
00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:55,514
— What did Pash want to investigate?
— I imagine the three others on the proJect.

403
00:25:55,554 --> 00:25:59,888
You knew Colonel Pash would move heaven
and earth to find these three, didn't you?

404
00:25:59,925 --> 00:26:03,986
— Yes.
— And that he'd want to know the identity of X?

405
00:26:04,029 --> 00:26:06,623
— Yes.
— And yet you wouldn't give it to him.

406
00:26:10,035 --> 00:26:13,766
How long had you known this man Chevalier
in 1943?

407
00:26:13,806 --> 00:26:17,367
— For a number of years.
— How had you known him?

408
00:26:17,409 --> 00:26:20,810
— As a quite close friend.
— Did you know him as a fellow traveler?

409
00:26:20,846 --> 00:26:23,610
— Yes.
— Had you any reason to suspect

410
00:26:23,649 --> 00:26:25,640
he was a member of the Communist Party?

411
00:26:25,684 --> 00:26:28,983
— No.
— You knew he was quite a Red, didn't you?

412
00:26:29,021 --> 00:26:30,989
— I would say quite pink.
— Not red?

413
00:26:31,023 --> 00:26:34,618
— I won't quibble.
— When did you see him last?

414
00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:39,063
— On my last trip to Europe.
— That was in December 1953?

415
00:26:39,098 --> 00:26:41,032
— Yes.
— Six months ago?

416
00:26:41,066 --> 00:26:42,863
Yes.

417
00:26:45,904 --> 00:26:49,135
Let us return
to your inten/iew with Colonel Pash.

418
00:26:49,208 --> 00:26:53,542
I would like to read certain portions of the
transcript of the inten/iew and ask you...

419
00:26:53,612 --> 00:26:56,479
Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate the existence of the rule

420
00:26:56,515 --> 00:26:59,211
under which we cannot ask for access to the file.

421
00:26:59,251 --> 00:27:03,779
But I wonder if it would not be proper,
if counsel is going to read from a transcript,

422
00:27:03,822 --> 00:27:06,347
for us to be furnished with a copy of it?

423
00:27:06,391 --> 00:27:11,226
This would be orthodox in a court of law.
I don't pretend this is a court of law, but...

424
00:27:11,263 --> 00:27:14,630
Mr. Chairman,
I know of no rule in any court of law

425
00:27:14,666 --> 00:27:19,000
that you must furnish counsel with a copy
of a transcript you're reading at the time.

426
00:27:19,037 --> 00:27:20,800
This is presently marked "Secret",

427
00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:24,468
so I could not possibly make it available
to Mr. Garrison at this time.

428
00:27:24,510 --> 00:27:26,569
But it is being read into the record.

429
00:27:26,612 --> 00:27:28,671
That's right.

430
00:27:30,082 --> 00:27:34,246
(Clears throat) Frankly,
I don't know the answer to this, Mr. Garrison.

431
00:27:34,286 --> 00:27:36,516
We will consider the request.

432
00:27:36,922 --> 00:27:38,321
Now, Mr. Robb?

433
00:27:40,926 --> 00:27:45,386
Your letter to General Nichols.
On page four, you mention Jean Tatlock.

434
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:49,867
— Yes.
— Who you saw for the last time in June 1943?

435
00:27:49,902 --> 00:27:51,995
— Yes.
— Why did you have to see her?

436
00:27:52,037 --> 00:27:55,529
She had expressed a strong desire to see me.

437
00:27:55,607 --> 00:27:58,804
She was undergoing psychiatric treatment.

438
00:27:58,844 --> 00:28:00,812
She was extremely unhappy.

439
00:28:00,846 --> 00:28:03,178
Did you find out why she had to see you?

440
00:28:03,215 --> 00:28:05,843
Because she was still in love with me.

441
00:28:05,884 --> 00:28:09,445
— Where did you see her?
— At her home.

442
00:28:09,488 --> 00:28:12,946
— Was she a Communist at that time?
— We didn't even talk about it.

443
00:28:12,991 --> 00:28:16,620
Do you have reason to believe
she wasn't still a Communist in 1943?

444
00:28:16,662 --> 00:28:20,257
— No.
— You spent the night with her, didn't you?

445
00:28:20,299 --> 00:28:24,292
— Yes.
— You were working on a secret war proJect.

446
00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:27,964
— Yes.
— Was that consistent with good security?

447
00:28:28,006 --> 00:28:32,568
— It was, as a matter of fact...
— Spending the night with a Communist...

448
00:28:32,611 --> 00:28:34,511
I don't believe she was a Communist.

449
00:28:34,580 --> 00:28:37,708
— Oh, you don't?
— I've had secrets in my head for a long time.

450
00:28:37,783 --> 00:28:42,379
It doesn't matter who I associate with.
I don't talk about those secrets.

451
00:28:42,421 --> 00:28:45,083
Passing the time of day with a Communist, I...

452
00:28:47,226 --> 00:28:49,217
I don't think it is wise.

453
00:28:49,261 --> 00:28:54,324
But I don't see that it's necessarily dangerous if
the man is discreet and knows what he's up to.

454
00:28:55,934 --> 00:28:59,995
I should like to move now
to the matter of the thermonuclear.

455
00:29:01,006 --> 00:29:07,343
Doctor. Did you, subsequent to President
Truman's decision in Januan/ 1950

456
00:29:07,379 --> 00:29:10,371
to proceed with the thermonuclear program,

457
00:29:10,415 --> 00:29:15,614
ever express any opposition to the development
of the hydrogen bomb on moral grounds?

458
00:29:15,654 --> 00:29:19,613
I would think that I could ven/ well have said
that it was a dreadful weapon.

459
00:29:19,658 --> 00:29:22,650
Why do you think
you could "ven/ well" have said that?

460
00:29:22,694 --> 00:29:25,595
Because I have always thought
it was a dreadful weapon.

461
00:29:25,631 --> 00:29:29,897
Even when from a technical point of view,
it was a sweet, lovely and beautifulJob,

462
00:29:29,968 --> 00:29:31,993
I still felt it was a dreadful weapon.

463
00:29:32,037 --> 00:29:34,028
— And have said so?
— Yes.

464
00:29:34,072 --> 00:29:39,100
Well, Doctor, at Los Alamos and running at least
through the first year at the GAC,

465
00:29:39,177 --> 00:29:42,669
you were encouraging investigation
into the thermonuclear.

466
00:29:42,714 --> 00:29:46,206
— Yes.
— When did your moral qualms get so strong

467
00:29:46,251 --> 00:29:49,812
that you opposed the actual production
of the thermonuclear bomb?

468
00:29:49,855 --> 00:29:54,121
When it was suggested that the United States
produce these things at all costs.

469
00:29:54,192 --> 00:29:56,854
What did moral qualms have to do with that?

470
00:29:59,031 --> 00:30:01,932
— What did moral qualms have to do with that?
— Yes, sir.

471
00:30:03,902 --> 00:30:06,268
We freely used the atomic bomb.

472
00:30:06,305 --> 00:30:11,436
Yes. In fact, Doctor, you assisted in selecting
the target for the drop of the bomb on Japan?

473
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:14,877
— Yes.
— How many were killed or inJured by that?

474
00:30:14,913 --> 00:30:17,643
— 70,000.
— Did you have moral qualms about that?

475
00:30:17,683 --> 00:30:19,275
Terrible ones.

476
00:30:19,318 --> 00:30:22,253
Would you have supported
dropping the thermonuclear?

477
00:30:22,287 --> 00:30:24,414
— It would have made no sense.
— Why not?

478
00:30:24,456 --> 00:30:26,356
The target was too small.

479
00:30:26,858 --> 00:30:28,655
The target was too small.

480
00:30:28,694 --> 00:30:32,687
Supposing there was a target in Japan big
enough for the thermonuclear weapon.

481
00:30:32,731 --> 00:30:35,632
— Would you have opposed dropping it?
— I believe I would.

482
00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:39,330
At Los Alamos, you would have made
the weapon, wouldn't you?

483
00:30:39,371 --> 00:30:42,670
— I couldn't.
— No, no. I didn't ask you that, Doctor.

484
00:30:42,708 --> 00:30:45,905
If you could have discovered it,
you would have, wouldn't you?

485
00:30:45,944 --> 00:30:48,913
— Oh, yeah. Certainly.
— You were working toward that end.

486
00:30:48,947 --> 00:30:50,574
Yes.

487
00:30:51,683 --> 00:30:55,585
I need to say
that running a laboraton/ is one thing,

488
00:30:55,654 --> 00:30:58,680
— advising the government is another.
— Evidently.

489
00:31:01,259 --> 00:31:07,494
Doctor, I have a note here that you testified
before the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy

490
00:31:07,532 --> 00:31:10,057
that there was a surprising unanimity

491
00:31:10,102 --> 00:31:15,438
at the general advison/ committee meeting
on October 29th, 1949,

492
00:31:15,474 --> 00:31:19,808
that the United States
should not take the initiative at that time

493
00:31:19,845 --> 00:31:23,144
— in an all—out thermonuclear program.
— Yes.

494
00:31:23,215 --> 00:31:25,843
How many people run that committee?

495
00:31:25,884 --> 00:31:29,411
— Nine. One man was in Sweden.
— Oh. Who was that?

496
00:31:29,454 --> 00:31:33,049
— Dr. Glenn Seaborg.
— So you didn't know how he felt about it.

497
00:31:33,091 --> 00:31:35,889
He was in Sweden.
There was no communication with him.

498
00:31:35,927 --> 00:31:37,417
I beg your pardon.

499
00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:40,556
He was in Sweden.
There was no communication with him.

500
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:42,499
I see.

501
00:31:44,336 --> 00:31:47,305
I'm going to show you a letter,
Dr. Oppenheimer,

502
00:31:47,339 --> 00:31:49,671
taken from your files at Princeton

503
00:31:49,708 --> 00:31:52,233
sent by you to the Atomic Energy Commission,

504
00:31:52,277 --> 00:31:55,144
addressed to you, and signed by Glenn Seaborg.

505
00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:58,274
I'm going to say before I see this
that I have no recollection of it.

506
00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:02,013
I would be certain of one thing.
If the letter reached me before a meeting,

507
00:32:02,053 --> 00:32:04,112
I would have read it to the committee.

508
00:32:04,189 --> 00:32:09,525
— The letter was dated October 14th, 1949.
— So it almost certainly reached me.

509
00:32:09,561 --> 00:32:12,553
Unless it came by wagon train,
it reached you, didn't it?

510
00:32:12,631 --> 00:32:14,030
Right.

511
00:32:14,065 --> 00:32:19,128
I will read relevant sections
of this letter from Dr. Seaborg.

512
00:32:19,171 --> 00:32:24,700
"Although I deplore the prospect of our countn/
putting a tremendous effort into this..."

513
00:32:24,743 --> 00:32:27,712
He was talking about the thermonuclear,
wasn't he?

514
00:32:27,746 --> 00:32:29,145
Obviously.

515
00:32:29,181 --> 00:32:34,244
"..I must confess that I've been unable to come
to the conclusion that we should not.

516
00:32:34,286 --> 00:32:37,517
"My present feeling
would perhaps be best summarized

517
00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:40,889
"by saying that I would have to hear
some good arguments

518
00:32:40,926 --> 00:32:43,588
"before I could take on sufficient courage

519
00:32:43,662 --> 00:32:46,688
"to recommend not going toward
such a program."

520
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:52,696
Isn't it clear to you now that Dr. Seaborg
did express himself prior to the meeting?

521
00:32:52,737 --> 00:32:55,001
It is. Not in unequivocal terms.

522
00:32:55,073 --> 00:32:57,541
Why did you tell the Atomic Energy Commission

523
00:32:57,576 --> 00:33:00,670
that Dr. Seaborg had not expressed himself
on this subJect?

524
00:33:00,712 --> 00:33:04,614
I would have to see the transcript.
I don't remember the question or answer.

525
00:33:04,649 --> 00:33:07,482
If you did make that statement,
it was not true, was it?

526
00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:10,215
Doctor, did you hear my question?

527
00:33:10,255 --> 00:33:13,520
I heard it, but I have heard that kind of question
too often.

528
00:33:13,558 --> 00:33:16,857
I'm sure of that, Doctor,
but would you answer it nevertheless?

529
00:33:16,895 --> 00:33:21,764
Isn't he entitled to see testimony referred to
instead of answering hypothetical questions?

530
00:33:21,833 --> 00:33:23,824
(Robb) It is not hypothetical.

531
00:33:23,869 --> 00:33:28,033
Doctor, if you told
the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy

532
00:33:28,073 --> 00:33:34,569
that Dr. Seaborg had not expressed himself
prior to the meeting on October 29th, 1949,

533
00:33:34,646 --> 00:33:36,307
that was not true, was it?

534
00:33:36,348 --> 00:33:38,578
— It would depend entirely on...
— Yes or no?

535
00:33:38,650 --> 00:33:42,711
I will not say yes or no.
I would like to make a general protest.

536
00:33:42,754 --> 00:33:45,052
I am told that I have said certain things.

537
00:33:45,090 --> 00:33:48,116
— Doctor, the question...
— I don't recall. If I said them...

538
00:33:48,159 --> 00:33:51,151
— Doctor, a simple...
— I will not say yes or no!

539
00:33:55,767 --> 00:33:58,668
(Robb) That's all I have at the moment,
Mr. Chairman.

540
00:33:58,703 --> 00:34:00,898
We will recess at this point.

541
00:34:16,621 --> 00:34:20,079
Mr. Robb, my congratulations. That was brilliant.

542
00:34:20,125 --> 00:34:22,457
I've never seen Oppie in such a fix.

543
00:34:22,494 --> 00:34:25,622
You were right. He did back down.
Aren't you pleased?

544
00:34:25,664 --> 00:34:28,497
I didn't entirely enJoy it.

545
00:34:29,935 --> 00:34:32,335
I quite admire the guy.

546
00:34:46,384 --> 00:34:48,648
— Joe.
— I heard about it.

547
00:34:49,988 --> 00:34:52,582
It was unbelievable. Unbelievable!

548
00:34:52,657 --> 00:34:55,683
That tricky bastard.
The truth doctor. "Yes or no!"

549
00:34:55,727 --> 00:34:59,788
I can't believe any experienced Jurist
would fall for that masquerade.

550
00:34:59,864 --> 00:35:01,525
None of them is experienced.

551
00:35:02,901 --> 00:35:05,131
Robert has told one...untruth in his life.

552
00:35:05,203 --> 00:35:09,401
The way Robb handled that Chevalier garbage,
it sounded like he'd told a million.

553
00:35:09,441 --> 00:35:12,672
I deeply regret I did not challenge him on that.

554
00:35:18,850 --> 00:35:21,080
How are you, Robert?

555
00:35:22,354 --> 00:35:25,482
— How was it?
— Idiotic.

556
00:35:25,523 --> 00:35:28,754
And he's reading out this stuff, these transcripts.

557
00:35:28,827 --> 00:35:32,695
We don't have any idea what's in his file.
It's easy as hell to trip Robert up.

558
00:35:32,731 --> 00:35:37,498
Demand access. Tell 'em if they won't
give you access, you'll walk out.

559
00:35:37,535 --> 00:35:43,496
This is no enquily It's a trial. You didn't agree
to take part in a trial. Access, or you'll walk.

560
00:35:43,541 --> 00:35:45,566
— That is not my advice.
— Oh, hell.

561
00:35:45,644 --> 00:35:47,908
And it must be Robert's decision.

562
00:35:47,946 --> 00:35:50,881
— How about it?
— I can't.

563
00:35:50,915 --> 00:35:52,906
Robert, they're shafting you.

564
00:35:52,951 --> 00:35:56,546
I know that. I can't walk out now.
It'd be a confession of guilt.

565
00:35:59,658 --> 00:36:01,592
And now it's public.

566
00:36:01,626 --> 00:36:04,857
— I read it.
— How did they get hold of it?

567
00:36:04,896 --> 00:36:07,729
The Times has been after us for weeks.

568
00:36:07,799 --> 00:36:12,293
Scottie Ruston called yesterday morning,
said he couldn't sit on it any more.

569
00:36:13,138 --> 00:36:15,800
I thought it was better
they have the whole stony.

570
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,276
— I bet the board didn't like that.
— I guess they didn't.

571
00:36:20,345 --> 00:36:23,246
Robert, I still think you should quit.

572
00:36:23,281 --> 00:36:26,944
Mr. Volpe, I am ready as always to be replaced.

573
00:36:27,018 --> 00:36:31,250
But while I am still Robert's chief counsel,
my advice is to proceed.

574
00:36:31,289 --> 00:36:34,452
— I still think we have a reasonable chance.
— On what grounds?

575
00:36:34,492 --> 00:36:36,483
On the quality of our case.

576
00:36:36,528 --> 00:36:41,693
This tricken/ of Robb's is based on nothing
but tittle—tattle, third—rate informants,

577
00:36:41,733 --> 00:36:43,428
FBI scourings.

578
00:36:43,468 --> 00:36:46,960
When the board sees the caliber of the men
prepared to stand by Robert,

579
00:36:47,038 --> 00:36:49,268
I can't believe they'll be unimpressed.

580
00:36:51,476 --> 00:36:54,843
(Garrison) Mr. McCloy.
Would you state your present position?

581
00:36:54,879 --> 00:36:58,280
I am presently chairman of the board
of the Chase National Bank.

582
00:36:58,316 --> 00:37:02,377
Would you also state positions you held
in the defence establishment in the war?

583
00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:06,288
I was Assistant Secretan/ of War until 1945.

584
00:37:06,324 --> 00:37:09,259
After that,
I sen/ed on various defence committees.

585
00:37:09,294 --> 00:37:13,025
I was on the President's committee
with Mr. Acheson and General Groves

586
00:37:13,064 --> 00:37:15,328
with special reference to atomic weapons.

587
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,631
During those years,
you had many contacts with Dr. Oppenheimer.

588
00:37:18,670 --> 00:37:20,797
— Oh, yes.
— Based on your acquaintance,

589
00:37:20,839 --> 00:37:23,740
would you give the board your opinion
as to his loyalty,

590
00:37:23,808 --> 00:37:27,335
and as to his security risk
or want of security risk.

591
00:37:27,412 --> 00:37:30,848
In as much as I had any acquaintance
with Dr. Oppenheimer,

592
00:37:30,882 --> 00:37:34,113
I would say that I have no doubt
as to his loyalty.

593
00:37:34,152 --> 00:37:37,417
I have absolutely no doubt
as to his value to the United States.

594
00:37:37,455 --> 00:37:39,514
And I would say that in my opinion,

595
00:37:39,557 --> 00:37:43,755
Dr. Oppenheimer does not represent any threat
to the security of the United States.

596
00:37:43,828 --> 00:37:45,125
(Garrison) Thank you.

597
00:37:46,564 --> 00:37:48,498
(Gray) Mr. Robb?

598
00:37:48,533 --> 00:37:52,435
Is the Chase National Bank
the largest in the countly, Mr. McCloy?

599
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:55,928
No, it's... (Clears throat)
Pardon me. It's the third largest.

600
00:37:55,974 --> 00:37:59,341
— Do you have a great many branches?
— Yes, we have.

601
00:37:59,377 --> 00:38:01,436
As far as you know,

602
00:38:01,479 --> 00:38:03,504
do you have any employee of your bank

603
00:38:03,581 --> 00:38:06,277
who has been
for any considerable period of time

604
00:38:06,317 --> 00:38:11,653
on terms of rather friendly or intimate
association with thieves or safe—crackers?

605
00:38:14,259 --> 00:38:17,888
— Well, I don't know of any.
— Suppose you had a branch manager.

606
00:38:17,929 --> 00:38:20,898
One day a friend of his came to him and said,

607
00:38:20,932 --> 00:38:24,834
"I have some friends who are thinking
about coming to your bank to rob it.

608
00:38:24,869 --> 00:38:28,828
"And I'd like to talk to you about
maybe leaving the vault open some nights

609
00:38:28,873 --> 00:38:30,602
"so that they could do it."

610
00:38:30,642 --> 00:38:34,134
And your branch manager
reJected this suggestion.

611
00:38:34,212 --> 00:38:38,046
— Would you expect him to report the incident?
— Yes, I would.

612
00:38:38,082 --> 00:38:41,882
Suppose he waited six or eight months
to report it.

613
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,754
Would you be rather concerned
as to why he hadn't done so before?

614
00:38:46,858 --> 00:38:47,882
Yes.

615
00:38:47,926 --> 00:38:50,724
Suppose when he did report it, he said,

616
00:38:50,762 --> 00:38:54,289
"This is a close friend of mine
and I know he's innocent

617
00:38:54,332 --> 00:38:57,426
"and therefore
I'm not going to tell you who he was."

618
00:38:57,468 --> 00:38:59,766
Would you be concerned about that?

619
00:39:00,805 --> 00:39:04,297
Well, I'd certainly urge him to tell me,
for the security of the bank.

620
00:39:04,375 --> 00:39:08,778
Now, supposing a few years later,
this branch manager came to you

621
00:39:08,813 --> 00:39:15,912
and he said, "Mr. McCloy, I told you a scheme
that my friend and his friends had all set up,

622
00:39:15,987 --> 00:39:19,320
"with tear gas and getaway cars.

623
00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:22,655
"But it was a lot of bunk. It Just wasn't true."

624
00:39:23,895 --> 00:39:30,061
Would you be a bit puzzled as to why
he told you such a false ston/ about his friend?

625
00:39:32,003 --> 00:39:33,834
Yes, of course I would.

626
00:39:33,872 --> 00:39:36,204
That's all.

627
00:39:38,142 --> 00:39:43,444
(Garrison) General Groves. You appointed Dr.
Oppenheimer to be the director at Los Alamos.

628
00:39:43,481 --> 00:39:47,042
— Yes, sir.
— How would you rate his achievement?

629
00:39:47,085 --> 00:39:53,024
I think he did a magnificent Job
while he was under my control.

630
00:39:53,057 --> 00:39:55,025
Would you select him again?

631
00:39:55,059 --> 00:39:58,028
I see of no reason why not,

632
00:39:58,062 --> 00:40:00,826
assuming all the conditions are the same.

633
00:40:00,865 --> 00:40:04,426
Based on your total acquaintance
and experience with him,

634
00:40:04,469 --> 00:40:09,031
would you say that in your opinion he would
ever consciously commit a disloyal act?

635
00:40:10,508 --> 00:40:13,033
I would be amazed if he did.

636
00:40:13,077 --> 00:40:15,545
That is all I have to ask.

637
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:18,048
(Gray) Mr. Robb?

638
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:22,713
General, in the light of your experience
in security matters

639
00:40:22,754 --> 00:40:28,249
and in the light of your knowledge of Dr.
Oppenheimer's file, would you clear him today?

640
00:40:30,528 --> 00:40:33,964
I think before answering that,
I'd like to give my interpretation

641
00:40:33,998 --> 00:40:36,398
of what the atomic energy act requires.

642
00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:44,268
I, uh... I have it here somewhere.

643
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:47,767
On page 98 I think you'll find it, General.

644
00:40:47,812 --> 00:40:50,007
Yes.

645
00:40:50,081 --> 00:40:51,810
Thank you.

646
00:40:55,353 --> 00:40:57,583
"The commission shall have determined

647
00:40:57,622 --> 00:41:01,217
"that permitting such person
to have access to restricted data

648
00:41:01,259 --> 00:41:05,161
"will not endanger
the common defence or security."

649
00:41:06,664 --> 00:41:09,895
My interpretation of "endanger"

650
00:41:09,934 --> 00:41:14,234
is that there is a reasonable presumption
that there might be a danger.

651
00:41:14,272 --> 00:41:17,105
It is not a case of proving
that a man is a danger.

652
00:41:17,141 --> 00:41:20,770
It's a case of thinking
that he might be a danger.

653
00:41:22,146 --> 00:41:26,640
I would not clear Dr. Oppenheimer today
if I were a member of the commission

654
00:41:26,684 --> 00:41:28,743
based on this interpretation.

655
00:41:30,488 --> 00:41:33,889
(Gray) Yes, Mr. Garrison.
(Garrison) General Groves.

656
00:41:33,925 --> 00:41:37,691
You have given us your interpretation
of the atomic energy act.

657
00:41:37,729 --> 00:41:43,190
Is it your opinion that the common defence
and security of the US would be endangered?

658
00:41:44,502 --> 00:41:47,062
— Mr. Lansdale?
— Mr. Robb.

659
00:41:47,105 --> 00:41:50,541
My colleague has Just told me something
which I find disturbing.

660
00:41:50,575 --> 00:41:54,875
I gather you told him if you were asked
to clear Oppenheimer today, you'd say yes.

661
00:41:54,912 --> 00:41:57,506
— That is correct.
— When we spoke a few weeks ago,

662
00:41:57,548 --> 00:41:59,516
you said you would not clear him today.

663
00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:03,543
— You've been talking to Garrison.
— I'd prefer not to discuss this.

664
00:42:08,292 --> 00:42:11,625
All right, Mr. Lansdale.
Now, you're a lawyer and I'm a lawyer.

665
00:42:11,662 --> 00:42:17,259
You're going to be asked in that room if you'd
clear him on the basis of present loyalty criteria.

666
00:42:17,301 --> 00:42:21,328
And I promise you.
If you testify under oath in the affirmative,

667
00:42:21,372 --> 00:42:24,569
— I swear to God I will impeach you.
— You can do what you want.

668
00:42:24,642 --> 00:42:25,631
Right.

669
00:42:26,577 --> 00:42:31,879
Mr. Lansdale. During the war, you were the top
security officer in the atomic bomb proJect.

670
00:42:31,916 --> 00:42:35,374
— Yes, sir.
— You had many inten/iews with Oppenheimer

671
00:42:35,453 --> 00:42:37,717
touching on the Chevalier incident.

672
00:42:37,755 --> 00:42:41,088
— And other matters.
— Yes. What Judgment did you form

673
00:42:41,125 --> 00:42:44,561
as to his political convictions at that time?

674
00:42:44,595 --> 00:42:46,495
That he was not a Communist.

675
00:42:46,531 --> 00:42:49,932
— You were satisfied that he was a loyal citizen.
— Yes.

676
00:42:49,967 --> 00:42:54,597
If you had the decision whether to clear
Dr. Oppenheimer or not today,

677
00:42:54,672 --> 00:42:56,606
would you do so?

678
00:42:58,176 --> 00:43:02,738
I will answer that yes, based on the criteria
and standards that we used then.

679
00:43:02,814 --> 00:43:05,681
Those criteria were loyalty and discretion.

680
00:43:06,884 --> 00:43:11,082
I am making no attempt
to interpret the present law.

681
00:43:12,256 --> 00:43:15,157
That is all I have at the moment, Mr. Chairman.

682
00:43:15,226 --> 00:43:17,091
(Gray) Mr. Robb?

683
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:21,828
As I understand it, Mr. Lansdale,

684
00:43:21,866 --> 00:43:27,168
you're not offering any opinion as to whether
or not you would clear Dr. Oppenheimer

685
00:43:27,238 --> 00:43:30,537
on the basis of presently—existing standards.

686
00:43:30,575 --> 00:43:33,305
That's a standard that's strange to me.

687
00:43:33,344 --> 00:43:37,508
I believed then
that Dr. Oppenheimer was loyal and discreet.

688
00:43:37,548 --> 00:43:40,108
I have not changed my mind.

689
00:43:42,787 --> 00:43:44,880
Mr. Lansdale.

690
00:43:44,922 --> 00:43:49,655
Do you have the feeling that you want to defend
Dr. Oppenheimer here?

691
00:43:49,694 --> 00:43:52,322
I feel strongly that Dr. Oppenheimer is loyal.

692
00:43:53,998 --> 00:43:57,729
I am extremely disturbed
by the hysteria of the times,

693
00:43:57,768 --> 00:44:00,134
of which this seems to be a manifestation.

694
00:44:00,204 --> 00:44:03,867
You think that this enquin/
is a manifestation of hysteria?

695
00:44:03,908 --> 00:44:05,933
— I think...
— Yes or no?

696
00:44:07,145 --> 00:44:09,340
I will not answer that yes or no.

697
00:44:11,115 --> 00:44:14,050
I don't think that
this is a manifestation of hysteria.

698
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:20,079
I think the fact that associations to 1940
are regarded with the same seriousness

699
00:44:20,124 --> 00:44:25,687
that similar associations would be regarded
today is a manifestation of hysteria.

700
00:44:27,231 --> 00:44:28,630
That's all.

701
00:44:33,704 --> 00:44:36,502
Nice. You stood up to him,
he didn't like it one bit.

702
00:44:36,541 --> 00:44:39,101
— It was good of him.
— Ven/ useful.

703
00:44:40,444 --> 00:44:44,141
I Just wish he'd said he'd clear you today
under present law.

704
00:44:44,182 --> 00:44:46,173
You can't have even/thing.

705
00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:50,550
Groves was a hell of a disappointment.
Were you expecting that?

706
00:44:50,588 --> 00:44:53,989
— Sure. He's regular Army.
— Mm. Cover your ass.

707
00:44:54,058 --> 00:44:57,789
He was the guy who appointed me in '43.
He had to get out from under that.

708
00:45:00,431 --> 00:45:02,399
Hello, Councilor.

709
00:45:02,433 --> 00:45:04,697
— General Nichols?
— Yes?

710
00:45:04,735 --> 00:45:07,431
Is there any word on my security clearance?

711
00:45:07,471 --> 00:45:09,871
These things take time.

712
00:45:09,907 --> 00:45:14,207
I understand Mr. Robb was granted clearance
within eight days.

713
00:45:14,245 --> 00:45:16,270
I put in my request three weeks ago.

714
00:45:17,748 --> 00:45:19,807
We're doing the best we can.

715
00:45:20,618 --> 00:45:25,419
Dr. Bethe. On the basis of your association
with him over many years,

716
00:45:25,456 --> 00:45:27,219
at Los Alamos and after,

717
00:45:27,258 --> 00:45:31,422
would you express an opinion about
Dr. Oppenheimer's loyalty to the United States?

718
00:45:31,462 --> 00:45:33,726
I am happy to do this.

719
00:45:33,764 --> 00:45:38,667
I have absolute faith
in Dr. Oppenheimer's loyalty.

720
00:45:38,703 --> 00:45:41,729
I have absolutely no question

721
00:45:41,772 --> 00:45:45,936
that he has sen/ed this countn/
ven/ long and ven/ well.

722
00:45:45,977 --> 00:45:49,936
I have faith in him quite generally.

723
00:45:51,115 --> 00:45:53,379
That's all.

724
00:45:53,451 --> 00:45:55,043
(Gray) Mr. Robb.

725
00:45:55,987 --> 00:46:00,219
Doctor, how many scientific divisions were there
are Los Alamos?

726
00:46:00,258 --> 00:46:04,786
It changed in the course of time. I think seven
but it may have been eight or nine.

727
00:46:04,829 --> 00:46:07,229
Which division was Klaus Fuchs in?

728
00:46:07,265 --> 00:46:10,132
— He was in my division.
— Thank you.

729
00:46:10,201 --> 00:46:12,226
That's all.

730
00:46:17,541 --> 00:46:21,204
Dr. Fermi, you were a member
of the General Advison/ Committee

731
00:46:21,245 --> 00:46:24,442
— for a period of four years till December 1950.
— Yes.

732
00:46:24,482 --> 00:46:27,042
You participated in its deliberations

733
00:46:27,084 --> 00:46:32,420
concerning the advice to the AEC on the
thermonuclear program in the fall of 1949.

734
00:46:32,456 --> 00:46:33,889
I did.

735
00:46:33,924 --> 00:46:37,325
Would you tell the board briefly
about the deliberations?

736
00:46:37,361 --> 00:46:39,522
Positions taken, the reasons for them.

737
00:46:39,563 --> 00:46:41,292
I can testify to my own feelings.

738
00:46:41,332 --> 00:46:44,859
I was concerned that to go ahead
with the crash thermonuclear program

739
00:46:44,902 --> 00:46:48,133
might weaken the development
of conventional atomic weapons.

740
00:46:48,172 --> 00:46:52,632
Do you remember, Dr. Fermi, whether or not
there was an opportunity at this meeting

741
00:46:52,677 --> 00:46:54,770
for the freest and fullest discussions?

742
00:46:54,845 --> 00:46:56,938
Yes, I think so.

743
00:46:56,981 --> 00:46:59,779
In his role as chairman of the GAC,

744
00:46:59,850 --> 00:47:05,447
what opportunity did Dr. Oppenheimer afford the
other members to express fully their views?

745
00:47:05,489 --> 00:47:10,256
— A perfect opportunity.
— That's all.

746
00:47:10,294 --> 00:47:12,262
(Gray) Mr. Robb?

747
00:47:13,998 --> 00:47:17,832
I believe he is a man of upstanding character,
that he is a loyal individual.

748
00:47:17,868 --> 00:47:21,702
I do not believe
that Dr. Oppenheimer is a security risk.

749
00:47:21,739 --> 00:47:27,336
(Gray) Mr. Robb asked you earlier whether
you had spoken with Chairman Strauss.

750
00:47:27,411 --> 00:47:29,504
I talked to Strauss. I never hid from him

751
00:47:29,547 --> 00:47:33,108
my opinion that this whole proceeding
was most unfortunate.

752
00:47:33,150 --> 00:47:38,554
And there he was, a consultant. If you don't
want to consult him, you don't have to, period.

753
00:47:38,622 --> 00:47:41,716
Why you have to go through
this kind of a thing...

754
00:47:42,660 --> 00:47:45,254
There's a real positive record here.

755
00:47:45,296 --> 00:47:48,493
We have an atom bomb
and a whole armon/ of nuclear weapons.

756
00:47:48,532 --> 00:47:50,830
What more do you want? Mermaids?

757
00:47:50,868 --> 00:47:54,269
This is Just a tremendous achievement.

758
00:47:54,305 --> 00:47:58,036
That the end of this road
should be this kind of a hearing,

759
00:47:58,075 --> 00:48:01,636
that can't help but be humiliating.

760
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:05,445
I thought it was a pretty bad show.
I still think so.

761
00:48:05,483 --> 00:48:09,817
(Gray) Thank you, Dr. Rabi.
We will recess for a short while.

762
00:48:28,839 --> 00:48:32,969
— That was so good.
— I don't know if I made much sense in there.

763
00:48:33,010 --> 00:48:35,808
I got drunk last night
I was so disgusted with this.

764
00:48:35,846 --> 00:48:38,371
You were fine. Robert appreciates it ven/ much.

765
00:48:38,416 --> 00:48:42,045
Are you sure?
He looked like he was in some kind of a trance.

766
00:48:42,086 --> 00:48:44,452
Well, he's a little withdrawn.

767
00:48:44,488 --> 00:48:47,013
Well, he looked like er...like a martyr.

768
00:48:47,057 --> 00:48:50,458
Is that what he's doing? It is, isn't it?

769
00:48:50,494 --> 00:48:53,395
I know Oppie. It's that goddamn actor in him.

770
00:48:53,431 --> 00:48:55,831
I bet he's really enJoying himself.

771
00:48:56,834 --> 00:48:59,598
He's going through a terrible experience,
Dr. Rabi.

772
00:48:59,637 --> 00:49:02,663
I know it. I feelfor him.

773
00:49:03,474 --> 00:49:05,339
But tell him to keep fighting.

774
00:49:05,376 --> 00:49:08,675
— Tell him not to be such a schmuck.
— OK.

775
00:49:14,752 --> 00:49:19,189
— Hello, Doctor. I'm early.
— We're on schedule. You'll be on in 15 minutes.

776
00:49:23,561 --> 00:49:26,792
I don't want to probe your testimony
ahead of time, Doctor.

777
00:49:26,831 --> 00:49:30,289
Will I have to say it in front of the board
and Dr. Oppenheimer?

778
00:49:30,367 --> 00:49:35,031
Of course, of course. There's one thing you
might like to glance at while you're waiting.

779
00:49:35,072 --> 00:49:36,664
What is this?

780
00:49:36,707 --> 00:49:39,676
It's a resume of the FBI files on Oppenheimer.

781
00:49:43,247 --> 00:49:45,613
15 minutes, Doctor.

782
00:49:52,990 --> 00:49:55,823
Dr. Teller, may I ask you please,

783
00:49:55,860 --> 00:49:59,318
are you appearing as a witness here today
because you want to be here?

784
00:49:59,396 --> 00:50:03,526
I appear because I've been asked to
and because I consider it my duty.

785
00:50:03,601 --> 00:50:06,229
I would have preferred not to appear.

786
00:50:06,270 --> 00:50:09,797
— Did you work during the war at Los Alamos?
— I did.

787
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,743
— What was the nature of your work there?
— Theoretical work connected with the bomb.

788
00:50:14,812 --> 00:50:18,748
During the war, did you have any discussions
about the thermonuclear?

789
00:50:18,816 --> 00:50:23,549
— Ven/ frequent discussions.
— What was Dr. Oppenheimer's opinion?

790
00:50:23,621 --> 00:50:26,283
I clearly remember
that towards the end of the war,

791
00:50:26,323 --> 00:50:29,918
he encouraged me to go ahead
with the thermonuclear investigation.

792
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,522
I also know that ven/ shortly
after the dropping of the bomb on Japan

793
00:50:34,565 --> 00:50:36,533
that this plan was changed.

794
00:50:36,567 --> 00:50:41,664
And, to the best of my belief, it was changed
because of the opinion of Dr. Oppenheimer

795
00:50:41,705 --> 00:50:44,697
that this was not the time
to pursue the program further.

796
00:50:46,277 --> 00:50:49,075
Doctor, as an expert on this question,

797
00:50:49,113 --> 00:50:54,676
suppose you'd gone to work
on the thermonuclear in 1945 or 1946,

798
00:50:54,718 --> 00:50:56,879
I mean, really gone to work on it.

799
00:50:56,921 --> 00:51:00,220
Do you have any opinion
when you might have achieved the weapon?

800
00:51:01,258 --> 00:51:04,250
It is my belief that if at the end of the war

801
00:51:04,295 --> 00:51:08,493
some people like Dr. Oppenheimer
would have lent moral support,

802
00:51:08,532 --> 00:51:12,730
not even their own work, Just moral support,

803
00:51:12,803 --> 00:51:17,399
I think we could have kept as many people in
Los Alamos to work on the thermonuclear

804
00:51:17,441 --> 00:51:19,841
as we later recruited in 1949...

805
00:51:21,078 --> 00:51:23,342
under ven/ difficult conditions.

806
00:51:24,615 --> 00:51:28,051
I believe that if we had gone to work in 1945,

807
00:51:28,085 --> 00:51:34,513
we could have achieved a thermonuclear bomb
Just about four years earlier than we did.

808
00:51:38,696 --> 00:51:41,358
Now, Doctor. In Janualy, 1950,

809
00:51:41,432 --> 00:51:45,425
the President decided that we should go ahead
with the thermonuclear program.

810
00:51:45,469 --> 00:51:47,664
— Do you recall that?
— Yeah, I do.

811
00:51:47,705 --> 00:51:49,900
— Was the program accelerated?
— It was.

812
00:51:49,940 --> 00:51:53,933
Did you have discussions with Dr. Oppenheimer
as to whether he would assist you?

813
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:57,070
I had two discussions with him.

814
00:51:57,114 --> 00:52:00,413
One was shortly before the President's decision.

815
00:52:00,451 --> 00:52:07,118
At that time, I called Dr. Oppenheimer
and asked him if it was a go—ahead decision,

816
00:52:07,191 --> 00:52:09,819
would he please really help us with this thing?

817
00:52:10,694 --> 00:52:13,595
And Dr. Oppenheimer's answer
was in the negative.

818
00:52:14,798 --> 00:52:18,290
A few months later, I called him up
and asked him not for direct help

819
00:52:18,335 --> 00:52:21,099
but for help in recruiting people.

820
00:52:21,138 --> 00:52:25,802
Oppenheimer said then,
"You know in this matter I'm neutral.

821
00:52:25,843 --> 00:52:29,609
"I should be glad, however,
to recommend some ven/ good people."

822
00:52:29,647 --> 00:52:31,877
And he mentioned a few.

823
00:52:33,150 --> 00:52:37,951
I wrote to all of these people,
tried to persuade them to come to Los Alamos.

824
00:52:39,056 --> 00:52:40,819
None of them came.

825
00:52:40,858 --> 00:52:43,554
Where were these people located?

826
00:52:43,627 --> 00:52:46,357
The Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton.

827
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:52,960
Doctor, to simplify the issues here,

828
00:52:53,037 --> 00:52:58,839
is it your intention to suggest that Dr.
Oppenheimer is disloyal to the United States?

829
00:52:58,876 --> 00:53:03,108
I have always assumed and I now assume
that he is loyal to the United States.

830
00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:08,516
Do you believe or do you not believe
that Dr. Oppenheimer is a security risk?

831
00:53:15,125 --> 00:53:21,223
In a great number of cases,
I have seen Dr. Oppenheimer act in a way

832
00:53:21,265 --> 00:53:24,701
which for me
was exceedingly hard to understand.

833
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:29,862
I thoroughly disagreed with him
on numerous issues.

834
00:53:29,907 --> 00:53:34,503
And his actions, frankly,
appeared to me confused and complicated.

835
00:53:36,413 --> 00:53:40,873
To this extent, I would like to see
the vital interests of this countn/ enhanced

836
00:53:40,918 --> 00:53:45,014
which I understand better,
and therefore trust more.

837
00:53:48,692 --> 00:53:51,092
In this ven/ limited sense,

838
00:53:51,128 --> 00:53:55,827
I would like to express a feeling
that I would personally feel more secure

839
00:53:55,866 --> 00:53:59,029
if public matters would rest in other hands.

840
00:53:59,069 --> 00:54:01,299
Dr. Teller.

841
00:54:01,371 --> 00:54:03,965
I would like to ask you this question.

842
00:54:04,007 --> 00:54:09,411
Do you feel it would endanger
the common defence and security

843
00:54:09,446 --> 00:54:13,246
to grant clearance to Dr. Oppenheimer?

844
00:54:20,524 --> 00:54:25,188
I believe the character of Dr. Oppenheimer

845
00:54:25,229 --> 00:54:28,721
is such that
he would never willingly or knowingly

846
00:54:28,799 --> 00:54:31,927
do anything to endanger
the safety of this countly

847
00:54:33,837 --> 00:54:38,604
To the extent
your question is directed towards intent,

848
00:54:38,642 --> 00:54:42,009
I would say I do not see any reason
to deny clearance.

849
00:54:47,284 --> 00:54:53,814
If it is a question of wisdom and Judgment,

850
00:54:53,857 --> 00:54:57,349
as demonstrated by actions since 1945,

851
00:55:01,098 --> 00:55:06,434
then I would say one would be wiser
not to grant clearance.

852
00:55:07,971 --> 00:55:13,409
Thank you ven/ much, Dr. Teller.
We will recess until 9:30 tomorrow.

853
00:55:28,859 --> 00:55:30,622
I'm sorly

854
00:55:33,130 --> 00:55:36,122
After what you've Just said,
I don't know what you mean.

855
00:55:45,709 --> 00:55:50,476
(Narrator) On May the 6th, 7954,
after hearing 79 days of testimony

856
00:55:50,514 --> 00:55:53,210
in the matter of]. Robert Oppenheimer,

857
00:55:53,250 --> 00:55:55,878
the board retired to consider its verdict

858
00:56:05,796 --> 00:56:08,094
Have a drink, Herb.

859
00:56:08,165 --> 00:56:10,565
No, thanks. I'd like to finish this.

860
00:56:11,501 --> 00:56:13,492
What is it?

861
00:56:13,570 --> 00:56:18,872
Well, Lloyd thinks we should submit analysis
of the testimony to the board.

862
00:56:20,244 --> 00:56:22,872
Give 'em another nudge in the right direction.

863
00:56:24,514 --> 00:56:27,449
Let's stop kidding ourselves.

864
00:56:38,896 --> 00:56:41,729
— You think it's hopeless?
— After Teller?

865
00:56:41,798 --> 00:56:43,891
Oh, he didn't say much.

866
00:56:43,934 --> 00:56:46,402
He said enough.

867
00:56:46,436 --> 00:56:49,064
The rest were nothing.

868
00:56:49,106 --> 00:56:52,598
Nobodies like Griggs,
a couple of Air Force apes.

869
00:56:54,478 --> 00:56:56,810
But Teller...

870
00:57:01,585 --> 00:57:04,053
Teller is a great man.

871
00:57:07,457 --> 00:57:09,618
Almost.

872
00:57:12,262 --> 00:57:16,221
He's big enough for the board to hide behind
if they want to.

873
00:57:19,469 --> 00:57:21,960
It's unforgivable.

874
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,304
— My fault.
— Yours?

875
00:57:25,375 --> 00:57:30,506
I should have...stroked his vanity.

876
00:57:33,850 --> 00:57:36,284
I couldn't do it.

877
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,982
Too many balls in the air.

878
00:57:40,891 --> 00:57:43,086
Too many balls.

879
00:57:44,094 --> 00:57:46,426
Too much bullshit.

880
00:57:53,036 --> 00:57:55,231
I'll have that drink.

881
00:58:02,179 --> 00:58:04,272
I am so tired.

882
00:58:08,618 --> 00:58:11,178
You know, when this is over,

883
00:58:11,221 --> 00:58:13,746
why don't you take a holiday?

884
00:58:13,790 --> 00:58:17,226
I'd like to go off by myself for six months.

885
00:58:17,260 --> 00:58:19,558
Well, why don't you?

886
00:58:19,596 --> 00:58:23,259
— Kitty would understand.
— Think so?

887
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:25,393
Well, she should.

888
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:29,405
You disapprove of her, don't you?

889
00:58:31,808 --> 00:58:34,242
Well, I wouldn't say that.

890
00:58:34,277 --> 00:58:36,905
You know, she's sick.

891
00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:40,313
I don't Just mean the drinking,
I mean really sick.

892
00:58:40,384 --> 00:58:42,375
Intestinal.

893
00:58:43,854 --> 00:58:45,913
She has a lot of pain.

894
00:58:46,890 --> 00:58:48,881
That's why she drinks.

895
00:58:52,629 --> 00:58:54,722
Part of the reason.

896
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:05,369
I know this couple in Georgetown.

897
00:59:06,243 --> 00:59:08,939
They have separate apartments.

898
00:59:08,979 --> 00:59:11,470
Ven/ close, but...

899
00:59:13,383 --> 00:59:17,342
They have dinner together almost even/ night
and then they go home.

900
00:59:18,388 --> 00:59:20,379
Separately.

901
00:59:22,426 --> 00:59:25,020
What do you make of that?

902
00:59:29,299 --> 00:59:31,859
— Sounds like a mature arrangement.
— Think so?

903
00:59:31,902 --> 00:59:35,702
For Christ's sakes, Robert.
You've only got one life.

904
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,801
It's not so bad.

905
00:59:41,211 --> 00:59:43,236
Are you sure?

906
00:59:46,516 --> 00:59:48,677
I've gotta go up.

907
00:59:48,718 --> 00:59:50,982
Robert, I...

908
00:59:53,290 --> 00:59:55,622
If you'd like to talk about this...

909
00:59:57,894 --> 01:00:00,089
Thanks, Herb.

910
01:00:11,608 --> 01:00:14,839
— Good morning, Mr. Marks.
— Oh, hi.

911
01:00:14,878 --> 01:00:17,438
— Is Robert up?
— No.

912
01:00:18,748 --> 01:00:21,478
I hear you've been encouraging him
to leave me.

913
01:00:22,686 --> 01:00:24,483
Did you think he wouldn't tell me?

914
01:00:27,090 --> 01:00:29,957
— I Just thought that...
— He would never leave me.

915
01:00:30,026 --> 01:00:32,017
He's too scared.

916
01:00:34,531 --> 01:00:37,830
One of his women killed herself.
You know who I mean.

917
01:00:38,735 --> 01:00:43,365
He's too damn scared I'll do it.
And I keep him good and scared too.

918
01:00:44,341 --> 01:00:50,075
I've got him and I'm gonna keep him.
I couldn't go through a day without him.

919
01:00:51,481 --> 01:00:55,383
— Do you think that's horrible?
— People shouldn't live off other people.

920
01:00:55,452 --> 01:00:58,944
Did it ever cross your bird brain
he can't get through a day without me?

921
01:00:58,989 --> 01:01:03,926
— There's no need to be insulting.
— There's no need to stick your stupid nose in.

922
01:01:03,994 --> 01:01:05,985
In my house.

923
01:01:08,498 --> 01:01:10,796
What do you know about us?

924
01:01:16,139 --> 01:01:18,232
I don't know anything.

925
01:01:18,275 --> 01:01:19,902
No.

926
01:01:25,682 --> 01:01:27,650
Now, are you gonna want eggs?

927
01:01:29,286 --> 01:01:31,413
Just coffee.

928
01:01:37,527 --> 01:01:40,496
On May the 27th, 7954,

929
01:01:40,530 --> 01:01:42,964
the board of enguirJ/ delivered its verdict

930
01:01:43,033 --> 01:01:46,264
By a two—to—one majority, it declared that

931
01:01:46,303 --> 01:01:50,364
”it would need be consistent
with the security interests of the United States

932
01:01:50,407 --> 01:01:54,503
”to reinstate
Dr. Robert Oppenheimer’s security clearance. ”

933
01:01:56,112 --> 01:01:59,445
The lone dissenter
was the scientist Ward Evans.

934
01:01:59,482 --> 01:02:02,747
He had some difficulty formulating his opinion.

935
01:02:02,786 --> 01:02:07,382
He was helped in doing this
by AEC counsel Roger Robb.

936
01:02:08,191 --> 01:02:11,183
On the 29th of june, 7954,

937
01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:15,665
the commissioners of the AEC confirmed
the board of enguiry’s recommendation.

938
01:02:15,699 --> 01:02:20,693
Robert Oppenheimer’s security clearance
would not be reinstated

939
01:02:27,477 --> 01:02:29,468
Well, it ain't Siberia.

940
01:02:32,616 --> 01:02:36,052
Look. There are people these days
who have lost even/thing.

941
01:02:36,086 --> 01:02:39,749
Guys who have to work in South America,
guys who can't get a Job anywhere.

942
01:02:39,789 --> 01:02:42,485
— Exiled to Princeton. Is that so bad?
— Now, look...

943
01:02:42,525 --> 01:02:45,653
Oh, I'm sorn/ for Oppie. Of course I am.

944
01:02:47,030 --> 01:02:49,362
I'm Just tn/ing to cheer myself up.

945
01:02:50,267 --> 01:02:52,701
(Radio plays swing music)

946
01:03:04,681 --> 01:03:06,706
Oh, you made it.

947
01:03:07,651 --> 01:03:09,619
— Joe.
— Robert.

948
01:03:09,653 --> 01:03:12,486
— Rabi, how's Columbia?
— Still owns New York.

949
01:03:12,522 --> 01:03:15,457
— How are you feeling, Robert?
— How am I feeling?

950
01:03:15,492 --> 01:03:19,622
— A lot of people wanna be remembered to you.
— Good, good.

951
01:03:19,663 --> 01:03:22,188
They're saying it's a tragedy, what happened.

952
01:03:22,232 --> 01:03:26,692
— It was no tragedy. A farce, maybe.
— They're still following your lead.

953
01:03:26,736 --> 01:03:30,536
When Teller was at Los Alamos,
even/body did what you did.

954
01:03:30,607 --> 01:03:34,600
— Nobody would shake his hand.
— I shook his hand.

955
01:03:37,247 --> 01:03:38,805
I shook it.

956
01:03:43,853 --> 01:03:45,650
Farce.

957
01:03:46,690 --> 01:03:48,248
Farce.

958
01:03:49,693 --> 01:03:53,925
This is the meaning of my life,
to divide the scientific community.

959
01:03:57,534 --> 01:04:01,800
When I was a young man,
I wanted to have a significant life.

960
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,302
Now they're saying it's a tragedy.

961
01:04:07,610 --> 01:04:10,545
But I think it's been a farce all along.

962
01:04:10,580 --> 01:04:13,913
— Oppie...
— A bitter farce.

963
01:04:21,725 --> 01:04:23,522
Have you seen Kitty yet?

964
01:04:26,663 --> 01:04:28,858
Let's go see her.

965
01:04:28,898 --> 01:04:30,889
No need.

966
01:04:35,705 --> 01:04:37,263
Rabi.

967
01:04:38,375 --> 01:04:40,605
— Joe.
— Kitty.

968
01:04:42,345 --> 01:04:47,112
So, how do you like our holy blessed martyr?

969
01:04:48,385 --> 01:04:50,945
I think it's his finest part.

970
01:04:50,987 --> 01:04:53,683
I'm sending a telegram to Stratford, England.

971
01:04:53,723 --> 01:04:56,157
Watch out, Larly Competition.

972
01:04:58,762 --> 01:05:00,889
There's drinks inside.

973
01:05:00,930 --> 01:05:04,422
And I persuaded my son
to turn down his Jungle music.

974
01:05:05,468 --> 01:05:07,459
You go ahead.

975
01:05:12,876 --> 01:05:16,437
This martyr's moving slower and slower.

976
01:05:16,479 --> 01:05:18,674
I should trade him in.

977
01:05:23,486 --> 01:05:26,114
Oh, come on. I was only kidding.

978
01:05:27,957 --> 01:05:30,517
Go to hell, Kitty.

979
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,551
Well, Join me, Robert.

980
01:05:34,931 --> 01:05:38,059
Oh, come on.
We're not gonna Just lie down and die.

981
01:05:41,805 --> 01:05:43,932
/n the years that followed the hearings,

982
01:05:43,973 --> 01:05:48,171
Oppenheimer was honored and applauded
in many foreign countries.

983
01:05:48,211 --> 01:05:53,205
/n his own country, his security clearance,
the mark of his government’s trust in him,

984
01:05:53,283 --> 01:05:55,308
was never reinstated

985
01:05:55,351 --> 01:05:57,785
But his good name was partially restored

986
01:05:57,821 --> 01:06:03,259
when President johnson awarded him
the Fermi Medal for Science in 7965

987
01:06:03,293 --> 01:06:07,127
the year after it had been won by Edward Teller

988
01:06:09,165 --> 01:06:13,363
Oppenheimer died from cancer in 7962

989
01:06:13,436 --> 01:06:15,961
Kitty died in 7972

990
01:06:16,873 --> 01:06:20,331
7'heir daughter 7'oni committed suicide in 7972

991
01:06:22,512 --> 01:06:27,916
Their son Peter now lives with his family
in New Mexico, not far from los Alamos,

992
01:06:27,951 --> 01:06:32,320
where he works
as a builder and restorer of homes.